career-advice

[tropic scroll]

ye how do u know

i am interested

[stone nymph]

Avg indian culture

[polar forge]

Tons of free online resources.

[tropic scroll]

asia

[stone nymph]

Same thing

[polar forge]

Project Odin, freecodecamp, replit for practice, Brocode YT etc.

[stone nymph]

i think its a culture thing, people want kids career by the time they are 16 or something

[tropic scroll]

im learning neural networks, i understand how it works but gets stuck on making all by myself

[stone nymph]

Please dont learn ML/AI by brute forcing it

[tropic scroll]

wdym?

[stone nymph]

Learn fundamentals, math+ basic CS

[polar forge]

Chill with going hard-core, learn a language and do some side-projects.

[stone nymph]

even if you learn NN, AI/ML the chances of you being employed to use in ur position is stupidly low

[tropic scroll]

i started on making games on roblox with luau in middle school and i learned python at that time too

[obtuse talon]

how much experience and time does it takes to be a python expert ?

[stone nymph]

just learn the basics, aim for college

[tropic scroll]

and i wanna do projects thats why im learning NN

[polar forge]

Sounds good.

Do you plan on studying CS in uni?

[fluid tusk]

its seems possible to setup a fake github account

[stone nymph]

Its different for everyone

[fluid tusk]

i mean with fake code history

[polar forge]

Depends on how much you practice.

[obtuse talon]

ofc
i am the only one in whole school who is studying py

[tropic scroll]

:o

[polar forge]

Don't be a fraudster.

[obtuse talon]

sorry replied to wrong message

[fluid tusk]

its not fraud, its a feature of git

[obtuse talon]

what was urs ?

[stone nymph]

Kinda just picked it up overtime

[tropic scroll]

what's brute force learning?

[stone nymph]

you learn the applied stuff or how to use it without understanding what it is

or why you are even using it

[tropic scroll]

i understand the stuff but theres so many methods and functions

[stone nymph]

like the chances an undergraduate will have to chance to use NN is really low in a work setting unless your doing research on ML/AI

[obtuse talon]

btw what is best field to work in python ?
pygame
micro-controllers
databases etc

[tropic scroll]

and different libraries

[stone nymph]

I mean its so broad ur gunna get a lot of different answers

[tropic scroll]

but i wanna be in google and there are so many smart guys out there

[stone nymph]

like google brain or what

Also how old are you

[tropic scroll]

idk people just say it's good and that's like the only company ik

17

[stone nymph]

theres plenty of other good companies, might be different based on ur country

[tropic scroll]

:o

[stone nymph]

okay so ur going to college? Id assume ur a junior

[tropic scroll]

one more year of highschool and then college

[stone nymph]

Yeah i wouldnt worry about google anytime soon

[tropic scroll]

i thought after college is work

[stone nymph]

college is school

[fluid tusk]

google is good but ultimately evil

[obtuse talon]

[tropic scroll]

ye but only 3 years and then work

[stone nymph]

work is after school, you'll do internships in college

But like most people in US dont really do internships til junior year

idk how it is in asia

[tropic scroll]

what are internships?

[obtuse talon]

i assume u are working in a company

[fluid tusk]

its where you work and dont get paid anything

[tropic scroll]

i dont rlly know about the school system i just learn a bunch of random stuff online

[fluid tusk]

like a slave

[stone nymph]

Tech internships r paid

[tropic scroll]

._.

[obtuse talon]

u get paid but like less

[stone nymph]

Im doing research in ML/AI in fall

[fluid tusk]

okay so like a smuck haha

[obtuse talon]

thats cool!!

[tropic scroll]

:o research

[stone nymph]

[tropic scroll]

i wanna do research someday

[stone nymph]

You do research in undergrad

[tropic scroll]

:O

[obtuse talon]

did u liked physics ?

[stone nymph]

Its stuff like this, that you should probably look up

[stone nymph]

Didnt really do physics,just basic courses

[tropic scroll]

i wanna like

know lots of things

[stone nymph]

Pretty broad

[tropic scroll]

like the smart guys on internet

[stone nymph]

ur gunna see a lot of surviorship bias

[obtuse talon]

rn u r in which company ?

[stone nymph]

Doing internship atm

Cant disclose company

[tropic scroll]

wuts dat>

[stone nymph]

u only hear the stories of people making it big, but it completely ignores everyone who failed

like people who work in faang is like the top 1-2% of all developers ( its a small number)

[tropic scroll]

but like when i ask questions on discord help channels people answer

[stone nymph]

yes thats fine

I mean take stuff on the internet with a grain of salt

[tropic scroll]

:o

what should i learn right now then

[obtuse talon]

bro,start to organize ur life

looks like u r hella confused

[tropic scroll]

yes

whats organize life

im a student shoudnt i be be studying

[stone nymph]

i mean i think its fine to learn how to code n stuff, but u prob should start with the basics instead of jumping to neural networks

[tropic scroll]

like what basics?

[stone nymph]

also shouldnt u be worrying about getting into college

[tropic scroll]

oh

[obtuse talon]

Extracurricular activities

[obtuse talon]

bro just chiil
and love what u r doing

and importantly
dont overthink

[tropic scroll]

ye i like to make projects

it's like getting achievements

[stone nymph]

i mean thats fine n all, did you take online courses in data structures

[tropic scroll]

yup

and i think i learn microprocessor and electric studies at school

[stone nymph]

Wut

[tropic scroll]

?

[obtuse talon]

wait, ur school teaches microcontrollers ?

[tropic scroll]

it's a vacational highschool

they didnt teach much though just like memory, registers, and harddrives etc

and some binary calculations

i think it helps in college

[stone nymph]

also are u planning on getting a job in ur country or a different one

[tropic scroll]

idk im fine with any

cuz i rlly dont know much about jobs and stuff

[stone nymph]

u should probably do research on that first before choosing a degree n college lol

[tropic scroll]

ye idk jobs but ik the field

also everything we learn is in Mandarin so i'll have to know the English versions lol

[stone nymph]

China

[tropic scroll]

Taiwan

[stone nymph]

[tropic scroll]

._.

[obtuse talon]

[tropic scroll]

i wanna be in a company that lets me invent stuff

[stone nymph]

[tropic scroll]

i always wonder what will happen if i make a neural network learn from and actual nervous system

[obtuse talon]

lol

[tropic scroll]

maybe if i get into a good company i can make stuff like that lol

[stone nymph]

[tropic scroll]

[stone nymph]

Are u going to national taiwon university

[tropic scroll]

idk

idk what universities are good

[stone nymph]

Thats the best university in taiwan and ranked 68 worldwide

[tropic scroll]

i'm gonna just listen to my parents they know i like computer stuff

[tropic scroll]

oh i think i visit there before when i was a kid

[obtuse talon]

@stone nymph
aye what type of novels do u like ?

[tropic scroll]

:o novels

[obtuse talon]

he gotta go for some work

[tropic scroll]

oof

[obtuse talon]

bye bro

[tropic scroll]

you go?

[stone nymph]

[obtuse talon]

oh hey

[tropic scroll]

oh hes bak

12am

wow

[obtuse talon]

it is 10 am here 🌥️

[tropic scroll]

it's 12 pm here

[stone nymph]

Go to #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[fierce apex]

Just got started learning Python, will it do me well in the future?

[summer roost]

hopefully 🙂

[vapid jay]

whats the best job for someone that likes back end systems like apis websockets and othrr networking stuff?

[plucky karma]

It could! Kinda up to you.

Kinda a life thing though. Anything can do you well depending on how efficient you are at it + marketing.

[smoky quest]

Backend jobs would be an obvious choice

[vapid jay]

i was thinking a back end software enginner

[azure lynx]

Hey are there any programmers currently in Uni, preferably in Canada I have an idea and need support on how the app would work, it’s costing and how valid you think the idea is. Also I have no clue what programming is.

[smoky quest]

yep, that's what people mean when they mention backend 🙂
It's a very interesting and fun job

[vapid jay]

alright, Thanks!

[summer roost]

!rule 9 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[summer roost]

this isn't a job board, and we don't allow advertising here.

[junior ocean]

How do you guys handle incompetent managers? For example someone who wants you to create something subpar because they are too intimidated to create something new?

[smoky quest]

Have you tried anything before assuming they are incompetent?

(that may change a lot the approach taken)

[last viper]

btech or bsc

[junior ocean]

@smoky quest I was hired to overhaul their system then created a large detailed plan on how to create a modern system, which can be automated, documented, and easily reproduced. After several meetings of explaining the detailed plan I was told by him that he was afraid to try something new. So just rewrite the current system the way it is even though he admits its shit but at least he is comfortable with it.

[smoky quest]

Then I would go to him and talk more about his fears and try to understand what they are about:

• Are they about the migrations? -> how to derisk it
• Are they about his comfort? -> how to train him + the new system will address some flaws and would make things better, so what's the fear about?
• Are they about the scope of the work? -> how to derisk it

Part of it could be breaking the process in multiple steps

[azure lynx]

Huh?

[summer roost]

read the rules that the bot posted.

[azure lynx]

Oh

My bad

Catch you later internet wizards

[summer roost]

you started off by saying "incompetent" and then you gave a description that sounds risk averse rather than incompetent. It doesn't sound like he's defending the design of the existing system, it sounds like he thinks that other benefits of the existing system make up for its bad design (even if those are just that the weaknesses are well known and understood)

[junior ocean]

@smoky quest I think the issue is that they dont want to hire anyone else and they only have very junior engineers, so he was hoping to get a system that works better but doesn't require any new skills sets. Even if that means it doesn't meet the needs of the users. He wants to just slide that under the rug and how someone else will address it or that no one will notice.

@summer roost that is true, he is risk averse, but how do you create a modern system that the company needs if they want to rely on standards made in the 1970's?

[summer roost]

that doesn't sound like incompetence, that sounds like making use of available resources. The best advice I can give you is to assume that other people are trying their best to do what they think is right, and to try to understand their motivations and perspectives rather than dismissing them as ignorant or incompetent.

[smoky quest]

I don't know the details of the situation, but that's not how I would interpret it from what you say.
It sounds like he would rather have a design that the team can handle and that's completely fair. If you show up to a company tomorrow and tell them to migrate all their python to java, you wouldn't get a better welcome either

[summer roost]

perhaps one of his concerns is, what happens if you build this system and then quit? Will the rest of the team be able to manage it? Will the team lead be able to assist them with it?

[smoky quest]

So that means that for you, you need to convince him that using an unknown technology (no one knows, no libraries, no prod knowledge, how easy to hire?) are worth the pros comparing to the cons

And may be you are right, but you should leave room for you to be wrong

[junior ocean]

Its more like everything is made in Qbasic and you want to move to Python. Yeah people will have to learn a new skill to maintain it but isn't it better that people level up rather than the Company and clients be stuck with a system that doesn't meet its needs? Especially if I build it all, document it, training them and make it easy to maintain?

[smoky quest]

And going through that dance with him of going through the fears and addressing them will make the end plan better

[smoky quest]

It comes back to the pros/cons. IF the pros are so obvious, then convincing people will be easy

[junior ocean]

To give some context this is a small company that just got funding and wanted to grow 20X in size in the next year and half to sell some state of the art tech.

[dark moon]

Ahhhh, the classic old reliable vs new and better argument

[junior ocean]

@dark moon the problem is that its not reliable. Its broken and filled with security issues.

[smoky quest]

so what are his objections to Especially if I build it all, document it, training them and make it easy to maintain? ?

[dark moon]

I'm personally of the opinion that a stagnated codebase is "safe", but fear to upgrade forever is ultimately going to get you into trouble. Better to bite the bullet and update to a) a specification as opposed to a codebase, and b) something built with forward compatibility in mind, so that hopefully the codebase will outlast the business

[summer roost]

companies that want to grow 20x in 18 months are much more likely to just fail instead. That's growing by 18% every month for a year and a half straight. 100 employees one month, 118 the next, 139 the next, 164 one quarter later. 100 people can't onboard and train 64 people in 3 months.

growing 2x in a year is a huge challenge. I'd wager 20x is an impossibility.

[smoky quest]

(let alone interview and find them)

(plus absorb them into their culture)

[dark moon]

Sure, safe is cheap and good. And transitioning to a new system sucks. I worked for a major cable company when they were finally switching from their 40 year old dos based system. But if you refuse to ever update your code, eventually you'll be looking for prolog programmers in world dominated by whatever comes nest after the languages of today

[smoky quest]

prolog is still great nowadays. You probably mean cobol :p

But in general, I a fan of poc, validation and migration/strangler patterns. That works much better than the rewrite from scratch projects that never finish and never completely work

[dark moon]

Its a question of costs now vs costs later. Pay for the new system now (and maybe get some new capabilities out of it, or else streamline the workflow) or pay for it later in terms of having to search nationally for people who can still speak the language or else pay through the nose to train every new employee

[junior ocean]

@smoky quest

1. He is afraid that I would be the only one that knows it. Which I understand but I was hoping that training documentation and his junior engineers wouldn't have to make any changes would change his mind.

2. After I build it I will be placed on a sister team to do the same thing. So he is afraid I might not be available to support them. I understand, but I just finished working for another company building something similar and once I was done it needed minimal support from me.

@summer roost I agree it isn't easy. Thats why I want to set them up for success.

[smoky quest]

How might you address these?
Sounds like for 1. involving them in the code change would be helpful for instance

[dark moon]

This all makes sense to me 😛

[junior ocean]

This boss is very much a just get it done and not worry about the details kind of guy.

[autumn epoch]

Can someone help me im new to python

[smoky quest]

The main problem is that, as someone managing people, what I read sounds a lot like trust me bro, I am an engineer. That tends to not convince very well, especially if you are new and haven't built that trust yet

[dark moon]

https://tenor.com/view/im-a-professional-dayebraham-lincoln-im-a-pro-this-is-my-area-of-expertise-i-have-mastered-this-gif-22159389

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
You should check #❓｜how-to-get-help, it will help guide you to the best place to ask your question

[dark moon]

Can I get some context on this discussion?

[smoky quest]

<#career-advice message>

[summer roost]

I don't think it's just "not easy". I think it's "not possible". I think that if they achieve it, they will be the first company ever to have done so. The fastest growth Facebook ever had in a year was 3x.

[dark moon]

I mean... and correct me if I'm wrong

But as engineers, when we sit down to rebuild a new system we do it right, or else we get sued and never hired again

[smoky quest]

Coming up with the design is like 20% of the work. The remaining 120% are convincing people it's right and to get it scheduled

[junior ocean]

@smoky quest Thats fair. I haven't had a lot of contact with this manager. The person I report to (who lent me out to him) respects my positions and supports me but can't force this manager down a certain path.

[summer roost]

I've never heard of a software engineer being sued for building a bad system. And I've seen lots of bad systems.

[junior ocean]

@smoky quest I wanted to spend time with him to build trust but he was on leave most of the time I was at the company. Now that he is back he just wants me to build it ASAP.

[dark moon]

You know, we could probably render some better feedback if we knew the technical specifics. Why did he want an overhaul in the first place? What do you think you can improve with an overhaul?

[junior ocean]

So its hard to spend the time to establish trust.

@dark moon I was hired to overhaul all of their systems. They wanted a specialist in greenfield.

[smoky quest]

Trying to put myself in their shoes, I would understand their fear. As you mentioned, it sounds like:

• Someone being lent to my team and changing everything
• They promise they will write doc and train people, but what if it doesn't happen or doesn't work?
• They will disappear after that project
  Which means I may end up with a completely new system that no one knows and understand except for that one person who has disappeared

[summer roost]

are there any ways to make the changes you're proposing incrementally? Swap the database under the product, add a modern message queue, move to a modern language for the frontend, one step at a time?

[dark moon]

If its a question of desinging a better system so as to speed up worker productivity by 50% then its a no brainer. If its a question of updating the system simply because its old, then why redesign something that isn't broken

[junior ocean]

@smoky quest I actually proposed that we share the same system across multiple teams so I won't be going anywhere really.

[summer roost]

even that's not necessarily a no-brainer. For the sake of argument: what if one worker uses the system, and the redesign would take 5 engineers a year to build?

[smoky quest]

yeah that sounds like some useful proposal which would reduce some fears. That wouldn't be the only thing I would like to see, but that's a start

[dark moon]

Godly, I know you love to argue

[junior ocean]

@summer roost I was told to scrap what they currently have and start from scratch asap because once that system is built they can build on it.

[dark moon]

And you're one of the smartest people I know

But there's no need to pick that nit

Hold up, just let me get my electron micrometer so we can split this hair XD

[summer roost]

you might want to point them to https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/

[summer roost]

just my way of saying that there's cost/benefit analysis in everything, and it's not necessarily helpful to speak in absolutes. Everything is relative.

[smoky quest]

something working beats something perfect

[junior ocean]

@smoky quest what else could I do? The choice is 1) let me build this and lets share or 2) I build you something funky and fast which our team will be forced to interface with while we have our own system on the side.

@summer roost your not wrong but honestly those choices are above my pay grade.

[dark moon]

I just meant about the whole increasing productivity thing. Of course there's cost benefit analysis. But I was just providing an example of a situation it'd make sense to update. I would have hoped it would have followed from the context that in that example it made sense in that situation

#electronmicrometer

[smoky quest]

The tl;dr is your plan should not only concern itself with the technical architecture but also consider who would be using it, who would be maintaining it/improving it/waking up at 3am at night if there is any alert/who maintains it if you go on vacation.

I can't say much more without knowing more about your org structure though

[summer roost]

I'd add to that by saying that, from a risk management point of view, incremental changes are much better than from-scratch rewrites, even though it takes longer and costs more to get the system to the desired end state through a series of incremental steps. The benefit is that after each of those steps you still have a working system, and can re-prioritize if needs have shifted. With the complete overhaul approach, if needs change before the project completes, all of the work for that project may be wasted.

[smoky quest]

I also haven't explicitly said it, but different orgs at different stages of their life would benefit from different solutions.

[summer roost]

Incremental rewrites also keep the number of pieces changing simultaneously to a minimum, which reduces complexity and makes it easier to train people on the changes.

[dark moon]

@junior ocean as much as I might disagree with godly and recursive on their almost fanatical opposition to out of the box thinking, I can tell you first hand that they speak very wise words. They've driven home to me the importance of institutionalism, over the years, and how it's the bedrock of the stable and consistent systems we rely on. The moral I'd personally take from it all is that if you really, really feel that a new system is the way to go then you should be able to back that up with excellent reasoning. And as they say, you'll need to come up with a plan not just for writing the system, but for the human aspect of adopting it

[junior ocean]

@smoky quest The issue I see is - You can't keep pushing forward with skill sets that are decades old. I find that "Build a modern system that supports state of the art tech", but keep it the same are at odds with each other. How do I get the manager to come to terms with learning and grow to deliver what the company needs?

[smoky quest]

I don't think it's fair to oppose "incremental rewrites" with "out of the box thinking". Out of the box thinking is an implementation details and that may be required for some of the incremental rewrites :p

[dark moon]

Food for thought

[smoky quest]

it goes back to <#career-advice message>
The key here is not that they are opposed to progress but you put them at risk by opening the door to them being stuck with end up with a completely new system that no one knows and understand except for that one person who has disappeared. So in that context, your architecture itself doesn't even matter

[dark moon]

As a side note: isn't this what docs and specs are for?

[smoky quest]

And btw, that's also part of one of the differences I see between a senior engineer and a lead/principal: the ability to consider the impact on the organization

[summer roost]

I've seen projects where radical outside-the-box designs succeeded, and ones where they failed. I can tell you that having risk-averse managers makes them much more likely to succeed, because it forces the engineers to spend more up front time coming up with a plan for how to manage risks and assess whether the project is succeeding.

[smoky quest]

Given there are no formal definition for these, it depends on the company. So sometimes yes, sometimes no, but that information will be somewhere for sure. Given they are in a startup, they may also have not reach a level of maturity where they have scope, (D)RACI, reqs, etc.

[summer roost]

docs are often built after the project is completed - and once the project is complete, people often get shuffled onto building something new instead of documenting the last thing they built. Specs can help, but aren't a substitute for a runbook.

[junior ocean]

@smoky quest So how do I balance building a system that will work for the company with that teams comfort level. They are anti-progress because they want to run things like they are still a mom and pop shop even though the company position has stated they are trying to grow into a large enterprise.

[dark moon]

Well you start by talking to them

Ask what they want. Ask what they don't want. Watch them work so you can makes notes as an outside observer.

[summer roost]

also - probably more importantly - unknown unknowns. You can only document the things you know about, but they probably have a deep knowledge of ways that the current system behaves that weren't originally documented, but that they learned over time. "Oh, if you see error XYZ it probably means that the dead letter queue has filled up and you need to run fix_dead_letter.sh to fix it".

[dark moon]

And then after you come up with a design based on this and its new and shiny, you can say "I decided to make this change from watching you all work, and I think you'll all enjoy this or that"

[smoky quest]

The first thing, is I would recommend you to reframe your thinking and build some empathy. Being against your solution does not make them your ennemy nor does it make them the ennemy of world progress.
As this team is your users, you should spend some time with them to understand their fears, how to improve their life, etc.

In this case, it sounds pretty clear to me that the manager has expressed some fears with regards the on-going maintenance and ownership of it. He would have expressed it regardless of your technical solution too. But your solution and approach need to address these concerns

[junior ocean]

What they want is for me to just get something done quick. But that works against the best interest of everyone else involved @dark moon .

@smoky quest Thats fair. What else can I offer to help with his fears?

[smoky quest]

I would say it comes down to being able to answer the questions I put on <#career-advice message>

[dark moon]

That's what the bosses want. I'm talking about the people who will actually be using the tool.

Maybe you should take them all out to the bar for a round

[summer roost]

ask questions to learn what his fears are, then come up with strategies to mitigate those fears, and then discuss those mitigation strategies with him.

[smoky quest]

if there will be multiple teams using your stuff, then it may also be worth building a team around it

[junior ocean]

@smoky quest That is the long term plan.

[smoky quest]

fantastic!

[summer roost]

so far, you've been approaching this as though you're seeing something that he's not. You don't seem to have considered the possibility that he may be seeing something that you're not. I'd start by trying to build some common ground.

[smoky quest]

also including the engineers who maintain the current stuff in the dev effort of the new solution may also be part of derisking by reducing the bus factor

[summer roost]

Really good point.

[last viper]

can someone tell me the actual difference between bsc and btech cs

@smoky quest dude ?

[smoky quest]

who said I am a dude?

[last viper]

ok not a dude

[junior ocean]

@smoky quest That is part of the challenge. The current engineers have been there for 10+ years but are still junior in skill set and are afraid of the change that is coming to the point where they fight back even giving documentation.

[dark moon]

Recursive identifies as a sentient TypeError with ambitions of world domination

[last viper]

ooo

[smoky quest]

Sounds like something worth talking about with their manager about how to help them grow

[junior ocean]

@smoky quest I have suggested that this is a great opportunity for them to grow. But I think the manager is sort of afraid to deal with his team because they own so much tribal knowledge and refuse to document any of it.

[summer roost]

There's no way you could succeed at a rewrite without the manager supporting either a) forcing new skills on those developers or b) replacing them

[dark moon]

And — again — we'd be able to give you much better feedback if we actually knew the specifics of the project

[smoky quest]

How is it related? I can't see why this manager wouldn't his team to grow and do better. Their wins is his wins

[summer roost]

If the manager doesn't support either of those, then it seems a rewrite would be doomed to fail

[smoky quest]

Also it hit me that you mentioned doing the same thing for another team. If that other team is more open minded, maybe you should start with them instead? Once you have something out and working and they are happy, they may be more amenable to go with your stuff

[junior ocean]

@summer roost he wants me to write it in a way that the junior engineer can use and maintain it with his current skill set.

@smoky quest keep in mind that it started as a small company so they all wear many hats. This is the first time they are starting to hire people specialized skillsets.

[junior ocean]

Yeah the problem is that our two systems have into integrate at some point and once I launch it, it will go into production and would be difficult to change.

[smoky quest]

that the junior engineer can use and maintain it with his current skill set.
-> That's where a yes and approach can work. Like yes and that means we gain X, Y , Z but loose A, B, C.
Ideally, A B and C are not something they want to loose

(but if they are ready to loose them, then maybe it's an ok compromise)

[junior ocean]

OK so I could frame it as, I could make something simple and different from what the other team needs but then you won't get any of the updates or support that I provide to the second team.

[smoky quest]

that's the spirit, although you would get another line of questioning about doing twice the work and the trade off made to keep some benefits to the other teams and if they care about them

It also works better if you can frame it in terms of benefits/inconveniences like: taking X more time for deployment, loosing/gaining access to a customer/market, loosing/gaining a specific ability, etc.

[summer roost]

The key is to understand that both you and they want the project to succeed, but that you have different ideas of what success looks like. Understanding what they see as the most important attributes to success will help you tailor what you deliver to the needs they have, as well as tailoring your pitch to be more convincing

[junior ocean]

@smoky quest Thats point B. Why do the work twice when we could do it once and then and all benefit from it. I think the manager is still stuck with the mindset (I only care about wins for my department) instead of we are all a team working for one company.

[summer roost]

If so, that's useful information that you can leverage in trying to convince them about the strengths of your approach.

[junior ocean]

@summer roost you are right. That manager sees a key to success as something simple he can manage. But he is also that kind of person who thinks things are very simple and easy without actually deep diving into the details.

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't make that assumption though.
I find it easier to use the model of them trying to do the best for the company and their concerns being about road blocks for them doing their work for the company

[summer roost]

that's a concrete goal that you can work towards. You can try to find ways to keep your system simpler to manage, and easier to understand at a high level

[smoky quest]

that may work out for you. Because it means he won't care how you do it as long as he feels his concerns will be addressed

[junior ocean]

I think the goal is sound if your the kind of person who understand how things works. But its more of a magic happens here mentality.

[summer roost]

That's just a description of abstraction.

[smoky quest]

digging into the growth and training of the engineers would also be worth it in general anyway. That could also be a topic of discussion with your manager to get better context in the company

[junior ocean]

Yeah I will take your advice to heart and trying to offer those points.

Thank you "guys" for all of the help and perspective.

[summer roost]

Another thought here: they may be able to get away with the high level abstract understanding because they trust their team to manage the low level details (leveraging their tribal knowledge)

Team leads generally shouldn't be technical experts on their team's systems. They're supposed to be focused more on the big picture than the details.

[honest pivot]

I swear I've read this exact blog post before, but I'm sure it was over a decade ago!

[summer roost]

It was written in 2000, so that's believable 🙂

[honest pivot]

yeah, I did check the date 😉

[agile turtle]

hi

[honest pivot]

Regarding the above conversation, obviously there are details we don't know, but why can't the existing engineers be involved in the rewrite? (Which, as mentioned, should also be as incremental as possible). Then they build tribal knowledge on the new thing.

[summer roost]

[honest pivot]

ah, missed that one

[last viper]

guys bsc or btech

guys

its actually a career discussion

ig so

[vapid jay]

he\l\lo

[gritty rivet]

I've never heard of btech. Have employers in your country? Check job listings.

Beyond that, a name is just a name and you should look at the substance of the program instead, in relation to your own goals, interests etc.

[weary owl]

Hello guys i have a question

What are the best laptops for programming?

[native narwhal]

I have MacBook Pro M1 it has built in terminal which comes extremely handy

I think also Windows and Linux laptops are fine too

[smoky stream]

I'm considering searching a job in python. For around 3 years I've been out of the loop and I'm curious to discover it there are any major shift in trends.
In particular regarding web development.
is Django still going strong? has the async eventually taken off? what are the most demanded framework in the market at the moment?

[peak halo]

programming is fundamentally the same on any computer. Linux laptops are more developer-friendly than Windows.

Whether or not you want to use Apple devices is a religious question.

[lost fox]

hello guys, i'd like to know what projects you guys recommend for me to fill my portfolio, for a first job as a python dev, i understand things like closures, decorators and classes, so can u guys help me?

[obtuse talon]

is it advisiable to earn money by advertising ads on ur website /blog ?

[native narwhal]

this is a Python career discussion channel and as a former digital marketer I can tell you that you won't get good discussion on that topic here

[buoyant seal]

Django is still going strong(Recently became Django 4.0-4.1). It adopted a lot of async stuff but still struggles with async support for db/Django ORM, which turned itself into a promise every year now.
FastAPI is the most in demand along with the Django. (FastAPI is asked with SQLAlchemy)
Sometimes you can encounter people asking for Flask (which got relased into Flask 2.0 with full async support)
Celery is often a thing. Together with Redis/RabbitMQ
Kafka is popular too. Everyone wishes to have the stuff in microservices, nice to have event driven architecture, AWS is all around. Docker is asked to know by backend devs all the time.
People deploy backend into AWS ECS or Kubernetes nowdays. Some people still deploy into VPSes with stuff like Salt/Ansible config management. But you get most of things are cloud now.
Jenkins is still a horrible CI legacy all around. But people switch to better CI tools. Gitlab CI is trending the best first CI to have for automated testing and deployment.
Most of the change in DevOps tools I guess. For infra provisioning Terraform is still stable leader, but some competitors start to appear like Pulumi/CDK

[smoky stream]

around the time when I've left python I remember there were some discussion about making some radical changes in the language to better support concurrency/async. have there been any major changes in there?

[buoyant seal]

oh yeah, in python 3.6 they adopted those changes

async def function():
pass
is possible now

asyncio became part of default language syntax, with some other actions

[buoyant seal]

python 3.9 python 3.10 introduced more changes into python typing system. Everybody loves typing more.
it can be like
def function() -> dict[str, str]
pass
we can use even regular data types for typing

[buoyant seal]

Some changes to Gill were made, global rework. Not sure about details, but it is now rumored as multi Gill in comparison to previous situation. In python 3.9 or python 310 it appeared

Btw we finally have switch in python. (match case construction)

[tough bolt]

henlo

[icy berry]

hey alkk

so here is my take on the topic, even though its not an answer to what you asked about

[tough bolt]

okay

[icy berry]

i did my CS degree 15 years ago

i use it, perhaps, 2% of my day to day work

[tough bolt]

🤣

[icy berry]

is it worth it? well... for me yes, but there is a lot of reasons why i could also say no

[smoky stream]

yeah now that you mention gill was the subject of discussion that I remember

[icy berry]

for whom is a CS degree useful for? that is the real question

it is useful for a company and managers that hire developers

[tough bolt]

i was mainly worried about the fact that companies might have a prejudice against applicants who do not receive a formal education in the field of cs

[icy berry]

not because CS skills are important in the day to day work, they are really not

they are important because it proves to them that you are good at showing up on time, you are good at doing your homework

[buoyant seal]

i ilke also @dataclass thing for every little thing. Nice DTO, and just to document better massive inputs/outputs. With pydantic it is ultra powerful thing with autovalidation of types during init even (inbuilt default into FastAPI)

[tough bolt]

nope tbh nowadays uni degrees is basically working 4 years of bs for a handshake and paper + debt + work that is completely unrelated to what ppl studied

[icy berry]

so if you lack a degree, you will have to obtain some other kind of thing to show that you know how to do this

[tough bolt]

oh right

[icy berry]

let me explain the path i see

the path now is to show the same by doing programming in your spare time in the open source community

that shows the same thing as people with a degree

[smoky stream]

all right I have to catch up with some stuff 😄

[icy berry]

would you ever hire someone that does not program in their spare time? probably not

[tough bolt]

what do you mean? can you please elaborate

[icy berry]

yes.. in the eyes of a company, they want employees that have proven that they can show up on time, that can work with task with set time finish date

school is perfect for you to prove that you can do this

agree?

[tough bolt]

i mean the open source part

[icy berry]

yes, lets just agree to what a school gives you outside the knowledge you obtain

[tough bolt]

disclipine, rote learning and a lack of creativity limited by deadlines

not to mention an avalanche of student debt and depression. debt galore!

[icy berry]

yes, so schools are a perfect mold for a company, because if you finish school they know you have this skills

[little meteor]

start yt shorts and upload shit

[tough bolt]

OHHHH I SEEE then it wouldn't make a difference if i had chosen either path?

[icy berry]

but a company does not have much other metrics in which to judge you

but now, with the rise of open source communities

you have another path in wich you can be judged

[tough bolt]

haha not me im just taking what the us students are saying. look im not even in the us lol university fees in my country is cheaaaaappppppp lol

[icy berry]

someone that works on open source projects, will have to do that in their own spare time

that shows a company that you are in fact working on things outside whatever else your doing

[tough bolt]

so does that imply that a good formal educational background in cs might make the difference since many applicants are also somehow educated in university and that they might also have a certain amount of knowledge in cs?

[icy berry]

and if you are consistenly wrriting patches, commits, prs for a project, it proves that you can work on a group project

[tough bolt]

i see so does going on github and keep opening issues and writing suggestions count? or do i have to be on the project's organisation to let the company know that i am a contributing member of the project?

[icy berry]

a formal education is only important in a few sub-sets of work scenarios

[icy berry]

yes, but contributing with code is the main thing you want to be doing as well

[little meteor]

self employment opportunities is high in programming

[icy berry]

but any work you do that is visable to a future employer will benefit, because it can be used to judge you

[buoyant seal]

Btw, not sure how you had typing before, but typing is important nowdays for a more full IDE functionality. IDE just makes better code syntax coloration / auto complete about existing class attributes / doc help view on the fly, if you correctly add typing to your input and output objects.
Pytest for the win as default testing framework ;b

[icy berry]

nobody will give much credit to someone that say, im self employed and been working for 10 years as a developer, if you cant show anything

a degree gives you something to show

[tough bolt]

okay, how about this. what do people do in cs degrees? do they do open source work or do they save down their cs assignments and put it on their cv?

[icy berry]

that said, i dont think a degree is something you need

[icy berry]

my cs degree counts for a small fraction of my own worth, my open source contribution is almost half my worth

the rest is experience

[tough bolt]

also another question, let's say for your cs degree class, how many of them are working in well-established companies (no need to be faang level, yk just a swe in a company) or a startup? or a self made app? i think cs is practical but not necessary

[icy berry]

if i had the option to learn CS on my own for free on the side, i would have choosen that

[tough bolt]

i see. are you a developer of the python language?

[icy berry]

well, yes, but im mostly just a user of python

[icy berry]

less then 2%

half of my cs class work in the IT industry

[tough bolt]

really? is it just because the cs degree is not practical + open source code really gives the true advantage?

[icy berry]

and around 20% of them work as developers today

[tough bolt]

i see. still better than stuff like engineering degrees.

[icy berry]

cs is practical, it has details that are important, but at a cost / benefit ratio, no. its not worth it

[tough bolt]

i imagine that with all those experience, they are like a level 7 swe manager at google?

[tough bolt]

i see. i defintely agree with the "practical" of cs but if i have no better choice of what to do in college i might go for cs

[icy berry]

to recap, a CS degree is more worth it for a company then it is for you as a developer. the skills in CS is worth it to learn, because 2% of the time you really need it to solve some problem.

[tough bolt]

ik it's "not worth the money" but do you think that having a cs degree would be a sort of a safety net for employment

[tough bolt]

mhm

[icy berry]

i have been paying my student dept for the last 15 years, and i will still pay for it for at least 15 more years

[icy berry]

yes, its a huge safety net

but if you find other ways to prove your worth, then you dont need the safety net

[tough bolt]

but i can get local fees for where i live, overseas fee is expensive but i just moved to my current country and i meet the age limit for schooling to qualify for local fees

[tough bolt]

(im still studying in secondary school so)

[icy berry]

it will always be some difference from place to place, but just keep this in mind, i use my CS education for less then 2% of my day to day job

[near ocean]

a CS degree is not a safety net lol, its the META
having a rich family is a safety net

[icy berry]

if you where to go into a research field, then you would for sure use CS more

[tough bolt]

i see, so let's say that i decide to learn cs on my own

do i just study for coding interview questions + have loads of projects in my cv + open source code?

then i can apply for jobs? i had a conversation with my dad yesterday where he also said that university degrees are overpriced + overrated

[icy berry]

yes

[icy berry]

i thihnk your dad is sensible in his comment

[tough bolt]

oh i see. thanks for your opinion on this. i really have learnt a lot

[icy berry]

if my son wants to go do CS i will encurage him to do so

but if he wants to learn it on his own, ill help him along that path as well

[tough bolt]

but he also said that if i wanted to do it, he would let me

[icy berry]

there are many ways to get a job as a software developer

[tough bolt]

mhm

[icy berry]

im just sure, that with knowledge about how to do self study (a skill i took far to long to learn) you are able to learn this on your own

but its not self-evident how to do that

school is a framework that enforces this behaviour on you, so that is a benefit as well, im just not convinced that the price is right anymore

[tough bolt]

so should i make my projects open source? so let's say that i actually finished my neural network project, should i just put it online available for public viewing?

or should i keep it low + start a portfolio website and showcase it there instead of revealing the guts of the code online

[icy berry]

im a huge advocate in open source proejcts

[tough bolt]

ah

[tough bolt]

i can tell. it's just that... honestly i don't really use github a lot except for downloading projects as templates for me to modify.

[icy berry]

you should share your coding skills, open source projects does this by default

[tough bolt]

i agree

[icy berry]

check our event

[tough bolt]

it's just that i think my share would be negligble/will not have an obvious impact to the community

[tough bolt]

nice thx

do i have to attend both? it it a part 1/2 or is it just 2 session of the same stuff

[icy berry]

anything you do benefits the whole, you can join our comminty and write features to @flat anvil or implement fixes to it

[icy berry]

its the same, just two different times

[tough bolt]

okay cool

[icy berry]

its more in relationship with the code jam

[tough bolt]

i see a yt link is it just a livestream

[icy berry]

let me recommend this as well

https://nnfs.io

[tough bolt]

thanks!

this looks like a nice book

[icy berry]

it is, i highly recommend it

get the book, if you enjoy what this is, you already know that AI is something for you

much cheaper then going a few years to UNI before figuring out its not for you

[tough bolt]

i alr have the code for the neural network... i will still buy it to read it

[tough bolt]

AHAHAHA EXPENSIVE MISTAKES

[tough bolt]

is there an open source version of this book

[icy berry]

what i like about that book, it explains all the math, i have not done linear algebra in like 15 years, but having it explained again make it come back easier

[icy berry]

no, its something you need to buy

[tough bolt]

oh okay bc i thought there were like download links or smth... must have mistaken it for ebook copy lol

[icy berry]

yeah, there should be a ebook only version to buy, i have the large hardcover, i like physical books when i read programming topics

[tough bolt]

nice. thanks!

[tough bolt]

btw can i ping you when i need help? sometimes it takes a while for ppl here to respond in the server

[icy berry]

you can always ping me, you have my explicit permission to ask me about anything anytime

if i dont answer, im busy or sleeping

and its important that i say so, people would comment if you do, so keep a bookmark of this message and you can share it if anyone asks

[tough bolt]

oh okay thanks remember me AHAHAHA

[tough bolt]

okay thanks

[icy berry]

you should bookmark this using @flat anvil

[tough bolt]

.help

[icy berry]

.bm

[flat anvil]

You blew it.

@tough bolt, please enable your DMs to receive the bookmark.

[icy berry]

click the tag 😄

[icy berry]

you have to enable DMs to the bot

[proven shuttle]

hi everyone do you know a good fresh open project for Django

[tough bolt]

.bm

[flat anvil]

You have to stop.

Your input was invalid: You must either provide a valid message to bookmark, or reply to one.

The lookup strategy for a message is as follows (in order):

1. Lookup by '{channel ID}-{message ID}' (retrieved by shift-clicking on 'Copy ID')
2. Lookup by message ID (the message must be in the context channel)
3. Lookup by message URL

Usage:```
.bookmark [target_message] [title=Bookmark]

[icy berry]

im not sure the career discussion channel is the right place to ask. mayne #python-discussion or #web-development is more suited

[icy berry]

do .bm when you reply to my message or .bm MESSAGE_ID

[tough bolt]

.bm 997160806967947385

[icy berry]

now check your DMs

[tough bolt]

tysm!

[icy berry]

this is a feature someone in our community made for us

[tough bolt]

nice message found

[tough bolt]

TYSM THE COMMUNITY

[icy berry]

and that person, can use this code when they apply for a job

and that is pretty cool to think about

[tough bolt]

really? how can anyone prove/use open surce code to find jobs

[icy berry]

its open source, anyone can see what you have done

[tough bolt]

like other ppl also contributed? taking credit?

[icy berry]

they cant, its open source, its open for anyone to see

[tough bolt]

or just a fraction of the code? since other ppl also contributed, the person cannot say that "i wrote this bot" without saying that they only wrote part of it

[icy berry]

.source bm

[flat anvil]

Command: bookmark

Send the author a link to target_message via DMs.

Source Code

Go to GitHub

bot/exts/utilities/bookmark.py:89

[icy berry]

we say, i contributed to the code/bot

[tough bolt]

oh lol this part of the code was me trying to reply to nothing lol

[tough bolt]

oh just "contributed to?" is this accurate, since i can just work on 5-10 lines and call it a day?

[icy berry]

as you can see on the right, four people wrote the bm command

[icy berry]

yes, you can, but the commit history for you is open as well

[tough bolt]

oh so the company can see it, like a big google doc

[icy berry]

yes

[tough bolt]

nice

[icy berry]

its a proof to a company that you work with code

[tough bolt]

thanks for your help!

[icy berry]

just like a degree is a proof that you can do your homework on time

my pleasure

[tough bolt]

mhm yes "i made it through uni one piece... yes not my wallet"

[icy berry]

thats how i feel 😄

[chrome talon]

hey

is there any devops experts here?

[icy berry]

you should ask in #python-discussion, but maybe you dont need an expert, maybe you should just ask your question 😄

[river light]

help in #help-pancakes thx

[surreal crane]

guys can u help me to practice my programming

what is the best programming for begineer?

[peak halo]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[frosty terrace]

So thanks everyone, I am getting more views and downloads of my resume. However, any tips to avoid scam applications? Also should I avoid easy apply?

And I'm actually not kidding, I'm getting WAYYYYY more downloads and views, like holy crap.

I've been avoiding applications with no picture for the recruiter or the company. Not sure if that's a good practice.

[gritty rivet]

Any legitimate company will give you enough information that you can verify. Be careful not to provide any sensitive info until you're sure of who you're dealing with.

[rough island]

sigh my boss used my entire years work for his performance evaluation and gave me what he did for 1 month and I now have a sub par performance evaluation

[rough island]

I suggest you reach out to the HR people at tech companies on Linkedin and ask them to include your CV, usually works a lot better, thats how I landed my first job

[near ocean]

Were you not in your own performance evaluation?

[rough island]

basically we get a performance evaluation on contribution, and yeah my boss handled my evaluation and swapped our work

[near ocean]

How would that happen, dont you use version control?

[rough island]

yeah we do, except he has access to change it and thats exactly what he did, we are a smaller company so we don't have a really great versioning system

[near ocean]

Lol sounds like you need to start looking for a new job then

[rough island]

yep I think so too

[near ocean]

Can you prove that you did the work you say you did? Through some other means?

[rough island]

I could yeah but I'll probably get fired for being a whistleblower so I think best I just change jobs

[near ocean]

This isnt whistleblowing, just gather evidence and go to their boss

(and also get ready to leave)

[brisk sonnet]

so, I have worked 2 h as an engineer

(25 €/h) 😦

also, I have only studied Python 2.7, not Python 3.0

[peak halo]

it's not a big deal to jump to python 3

[brisk sonnet]

I think, I could try to tutor C-language on tutoring sites in USA

I don't know if there would be critical amount of hours

first time, I programmed in C was 2008 June

I got banned from Aalto University (Finnish University) Telegram when, I tried to tutor people for 8 €/h

my education really flopped after 2006

[frosty terrace]

what is worth wasting more time on... indeed or linkedin?

[drifting violet]

LinkedIn

More popular and accurate u are also able to find local jobs there unlike indeed

[buoyant seal]

Somebody has the link to atlasssion describing different levels of developers with correlation to a scope?

[native dagger]

Have you seen this?

https://www.honeycomb.io/blog/engineering-levels-at-honeycomb/

[delicate bane]

[delicate bane]

no but i have the one for dropbox. will that work?

[buoyant seal]

That one!

[delicate bane]

https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/overview.html

[buoyant seal]

i mistook dropbox for atlassion, because both are blue

[delicate bane]

its pretty extensive. i like it a lot

[delicate bane]

"well, that’s  a bunch of pretty talk about processes, but where is the damn ladder?” Fair question and I’m very sorry to get your hopes up, but we aren’t open sourcing our own ladder just yet. Primarily because we hacked it together rather slap-dashily, with copy-paste from other organizations.

what a tease

[native dagger]

TRUE

Their SRE role looks like a dream

[smoky quest]

I would stay away form honeycomb. They kind of toxic

[orchid brook]

Guys

Do swes move to management or maybe even finance positions

[smoky quest]

it's common for swes to move to management. Less so to finance.

[orchid brook]

Like in life my goal is to work with audit firms or heavy into corporate or be a ca or something

more on the business/corporate side

But i love computers and programming which is why i want to start my career w software because of the early boost in life

But would it be possible to switch or how common is it

[smoky quest]

it also depends what you mean by finance

[orchid brook]

not strictly finance really

basically any career someone with a business related degree would do into

[smoky quest]

the question is so vague that yes, I am sure it would be possible to find something that vaguely related

[orchid brook]

management or financial officer or chartered accountant etc

[dense mesa]

Management is possible, financial officer very unlikely, chartered accountant impossible without all the numerous exams

[smoky quest]

it's easier to go from swe to management because the job is still related and you can help get things done.
But accountant is a completely different job with a completely different set of requirements. So it would be akin to a career change

[orchid brook]

hmmm

But management is pretty wide right

What about consultancy for the big4

do they even look at engineers

[smoky quest]

They would look at engineers for engineering related jobs, not accounting

[orchid brook]

Engineering consultancy?

[dense mesa]

Depends what type but big 4 isn't consulting if that's what you're thinking of

[orchid brook]

but they do have consulting right?

[smoky quest]

there are some software consultants. It's very common.

I think you may be interested more in the jobs that are software engineering applied to finance/audit/accounting. Maybe even things related to data science/bi

[dense mesa]

MBB do look for traditional engineers for "consulting", as they typically have a skill set which is more suitable than software engineers. Big 4 is accounting/audit/compliance, they may have tech consultants but it's not what they do

@orchid brook you can do tech at a hedge fund/prop shop/high frequency trader and get some exposure to the finance side that way

[sudden nymph]

What type of careers can I get with python that are not web development?

That have the least restrictions to break into?

[zenith bridge]

Anybody here a python instructor that I could talk to? Feel free to DM me

[dense mesa]

If you need help with instructing a course, there's #pedagogy

[zenith bridge]

Thank you!

[dreamy spade]

There's a job posting and an excerpt of it is:

Accountabilities:

Fluency with data comprehension for SAP
Build and/or run Python programs to create reports/dashboards for teams
Data research to support decision makings or operations, leveraging Python/SQL/SAP/Excel
Extract and analyze requests submitted from stores in SAP

How would you create a report with Python? Couldn't you do that with Microsoft Word?

[gritty rivet]

"Reporting" in this context means extracting and condensing data, not just writing a document

[dreamy spade]

Where does this data come from?

is it on a .txt document?

[gritty rivet]

Their focus seems to be on SAP

So something like this maybe https://towardsdatascience.com/automate-sap-report-extraction-with-pyautogui-f115ae19b653

[fair kiln]

Hey can someone explain to me the difference between a data analyst and a data engineer? Also which one is better in particular and would u recommended someone getting into it?

[dreamy spade]

I'm reading it right now

Open the SAP GUI and log in to the server.

So this is something that has to be downloaded right?

[gritty rivet]

You could download SAP GUI but it won't do you much good with out the rest. Maybe this will help: https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/what-is-sap

[buoyant seal]

I can guess that data anlysist is data scientist first
and data engineer I think is a big data first, hadoop and apache airflow / spark, AWS step functions / AWS Glue, scikitlearn, data science tools.

hmm... essentially data engineer is a big dated data anlyst i think. Because data engineer looks like required to know stuff data scientist knows + big data stuff

better to read job descriptions for clarity xD

here is a list of questions for Data Engineers

## Data Engineering/ETL

* Number of years in the industry: 0
* DWH theory (datalakes, OLAP/OLTP, Star/Showflake): 0
* Pandas/numpy: 0
* scikitlearn: 0
* Apache Airflow: 0
* Spark: 0
* AWS Step Functions (or any similar): 0
* AWS Glue (or any similar): 0

[urban pagoda]

hey who made the server icon an LGBTQ+ rank?

[frosty terrace]

is it typical for programming jobs to be on call?

[dreamy spade]

I would love to see a video demonstration on this

[smoky quest]

yes

[dreamy spade]

That sounds horrendous.

[smoky quest]

it's not really

[dreamy spade]

I don't want an on-call programming job lol

What if I am running errands? I gotta stop and drop everything and work on this programming on-call job

[smoky quest]

yes, that's the point

[dreamy spade]

And you say "it's not really" lol

[gritty rivet]

Titles can be fuzzy and overlapping but very generally a data analyst position is a bit more common and not as highly paid as a data engineer. Data analyst is essentially someone telling stories with data. A data engineer is basically a specific kind of software engineer that supports analysts and data scientists

[frosty terrace]

Assuming they have a lot of downtime though right?

[smoky quest]

that would mean you are doing a shitty job

Plus on-call does not mean you are forever and all the time on-call. There are rotations, tooling and processes in place.
It also means that what you are doing is important and impactful enough to wake you up at night if it breaks

[frosty terrace]

working all day also sounds like a shitty job

[dreamy spade]

Well companies need to hire nightshift programmers then. I would want to sleep.

[smoky quest]

welcome to adulting \0/

[frosty terrace]

I've had many jobs where we had like 1-3 hours a work a day

[smoky quest]

Some companies do hire across timezones to have a global coverage

[ivory sluice]

hourly? salaried?

[frosty terrace]

i donno, working all day, seems like you're getting the terrible end of the deal, I also know programmers that get salary and often don't do anything for months, saying they're just "optimizing" code, ect.

[ivory sluice]

what makes you think they do nothing?

[frosty terrace]

They literally tell me and play games all day, bugging me to play with them during work hours

[delicate bane]

well said

[smoky quest]

sounds like shitty engineers.
That also means:

• They haven't learned anything or grown at all
• Next time they look for a job, they won't have anything to show for

[frosty terrace]

well that's true, I challenged them to leetcode and they did 10% for speed and memory

i sometimes got 99% of all submissions, felt good about that

[smoky quest]

it also means they will be slower to become senior engineers and move up

[dreamy spade]

I really just saw an internship position for $15/HR CAD

What the actual

[frosty terrace]

well from stories I've been told, many people can't even do basics, like even loops are an issue.

[frosty terrace]

I've seen someone looking for people that have 2 years of work experience, no pay. Not even kidding.

[balmy spade]

You should feel good about that. Sounds like you've worked hard. I agree with recursive that those sound like just plain-old bad employees to have on a pay-roll.

I would be cautious, however, to put all the weight of an engineer's worth in the results of a logic puzzle. Again, not supporting the do-nothing attitude I've seen at my own work place (thankfully not for extended periods of time). Even a core developer needs more skills than programming and will be responsible for more than pounding the keyboard for eight hours a day.

Branch that into the technology world's desire to embrace "DevOps" (holding a rant) and you have an interesting demand for soft skills in the field. As a software engineer myself I'm also expected to handle my own infrastructure and front-end work. Beyond the keyboard I also have to take my shifts on support and on-call. As well as doing presentations to promote new features, leading/driving planning sessions, working with stakeholders for product design and acceptance criteria refining. Whew!

40-50 hour work week, maybe 24 hours at the keys if my product owner is on the ball and keeps the field clear. (I don't envy their role at all).

[frosty terrace]

that person who says they're making $120,000 a year, told me to use leetcode many times to get an advantage for interviews. After I wiped him out of the water with it (mind you he's been a programmer for many years now and I've recently started), he started talking about how useless leetcode is, how it doesn't apply to the real world, and all this hate against it, similar to what I hear in subreddits and such

[true harness]

I mean, he's right lol. leetcode is not useful for day to day programming

[frosty terrace]

i learned python and using leetcode to understand the syntax for C#, was much better than anything else I've used

and it is problem solving

[balmy spade]

That is what I'm suggesting. I also just want to clarify, in case I implied otherwise, that I do think being able to do leetcode is a pretty tough skill to learn. I'm terrible at it!

[delicate bane]

ive worked on some stuff, but its not really finished but my boss for some reason showed some people so i have a surprise meeting with stakeholders next week to see if what i made could be applicable to them

[frosty terrace]

and it also taught me how to optimize code

[delicate bane]

"im just an intern" 💀

[balmy spade]

That's pretty cool. You do learn a lot of tricks that folks like me might only find when we go looking if we're lucky.

[delicate bane]

im jk. i know this mindset only holds you back tbh. and ive grown much more after shedding such a mindset

[ivory sluice]

Rex how did that lunch meeting go? from a while back you mentioned the head of your former department wanted to meet up or something

[delicate bane]

oh mannn oh yeah that was last week

[balmy spade]

Awesome! See if your boss will give you some time to talk about your audience and what they will want to hear. One of my first presentations went awkwardly because I talked like an engineer to a bunch of senior leaders. xD

[ivory sluice]

spill the

[delicate bane]

the exec really liked what i was working on and ALSO thought of some use cases as well

[balmy spade]

Don't spill it! It's hot!

[delicate bane]

also x2, i felt like a mini-consultant since i had to give the run-down on the current SotA of the tech, constraints, costs, etc.

[delicate bane]

this is good advice. ill see if i can feel out what theyre looking for exactly

[delicate bane]

obv i was limited in what i actually knew compared to experts in the field, but i just gave what i thought was relevant to a non-technical stakeholder

and how it would apply to the company's use cases

[balmy spade]

Secret tactics of presentations #1 - Know thy audience.

[delicate bane]

yeah it helps that i come from a similar background to many of the folks in the same industry (healthcare)

im one of those career changers that is finishing up his grad program

[frosty terrace]

for web developer, is django the best one?

[delicate bane]

but yeah, they say i should probably have a full-time position after graduation but apparently HR takes a while to get through processes and stuff

so its nice to know i didnt work hard for nothing maybe

💀

[delicate bane]

did you know theres one rule (for public companies) where they have to post a position for 7 days before moving forward onto the next step

[ivory sluice]

nice! i am adjacent to the healthcare industry as well so maybe i can pick your brain on some things in the future

[delicate bane]

oooohhh im always down to talk about healthcare + tech

feel free to message me anytime

[smoky quest]

@coarse crag just ask. Anyone can reply as well

[coarse crag]

my teacher from high school offered to find me someone to help with college. she said that she has a relative who is a business owner in here (indonesia) and he can help me pay for college. she said that i could work for him, i asked her what kind of job it will be, she said that it's probably administration and stuff. i don't know if i should take it.

it's not that i am pessimistic, but she offered me similar thing before (with a different business owner), i did try the job and it's honestly just a waste of time. i had to use excel to organize bills and receipts on computer with windows xp that he gave me (it was very old that i couldn't even run google chrome). i ended up giving the computer back and stopped working.

i know that this person might be different. but i don't think i'll be able to learn properly if i have to work and go to college at the same time. the materials from college aren't even the things that are practical for IT jobs (i'm saying this because the education in indonesia is definitely different from the one in us)

besides, i hate it when people aren't being clear with their intentions. most people here (in my country) tend to say that they help without asking for something in return. but i know that most people indirectly want something back from me. (just like the one i worked for before. he literally said that he would help me with school, etc and when he gets old i can help take care of him)

tbh this sounds more risky than self-teaching myself. do you think i should take it? is it really that bad without a college degree?

my teacher is very kind. but i don't think she understand what i mean and what i really want to do. i don't want to do administrative jobs that won't get me anywhere. and i am also afraid of having to pay back something that's not clear on what it is that i have to pay back.

oh yeah if you wanna know the pay i got previously, it was 2 usd per hour.

actually, slightly less than that

1.72 usd to be exact

[devout granite]

2... usd per hour

[coarse crag]

yeah

[devout granite]

it's something lol

[coarse crag]

it is something but wouldn't you rather work on your skill for that one hour?

[devout granite]

yeah

if you get an opportunity and nothing rn seems to be coming along, i'd take it

[coarse crag]

i see

[devout granite]

if it caught your attention when the offer was made, then i'd take it.

you can always quit whenever you'd like, but getting the experience and hands-on will definitely help you later on

[pulsar drum]

You can go to college and work at the same time, but it can be quite difficult and requires discipline. Based on my experience in uni, courses towards the end were significantly more challenging and time consuming, so it would be even more difficult to also be working at that point. You can always try to work and go to college, and quit work if you see it's getting in the way of your studies, assuming your financial situation would allow you to quit. It'd be better to focus on internship opportunities while in college anyway.

[devout granite]

or just say fuck it, go join the air force

[coarse crag]

yeah exactly.. and the thing that i'm most concerned about is the quality of the education itself. why would i study for something that's not gonna help me get better.

[pulsar drum]

It also depends how much hours you want to dedicate to each. Like, both working full time and going to school full time would be quite challenging. But if it's part-time it's far more manageable

[pulsar drum]

Well, I can't really speak to that as I am not familiar with education in your country.

[coarse crag]

yeah.. what's even harder is that i can't leave my mom alone. my dad is quite abusive so when he comes to our house, i have to stay with my mom.

[coarse crag]

i see

[pulsar drum]

In my experience, my education has been what I make of it. Some classes were useful, others not so much. I tried to use the classes as motivation to self study as well though, so I feel I got something out of it regardless. In any case, having the degree certainly increases your career prospects.

[coarse crag]

yeah

[pulsar drum]

Well, it increases my prospects. I don't know if that is the case in your country

[coarse crag]

like, at least you have something to display on your resume

[coarse crag]

it is the same in my country. it does increase the prospect. but it's just a label. even my principal in high school agreed that university is not to teach you how to be job ready. (in my country)

maybe i should just tell her that i'm gonna take a year off to study and see if i can get an IT job later. it's more humane than a random job with very little pay.

[coarse crag]

thank you for your replies. i appreciate it 🙏

[acoustic depot]

I'm jobless I did my bachelor's in computer science also I have 8 months of experience. What can I do for my future?

[vapid jay]

A job?

I mean just apply. And you know, nepotism networking. Ask your friends and parents/relatives for a job or interview opportunity.

[summer roost]

Have you been applying to jobs? How has it been going? How far in the process do you make it?

[smoky quest]

I am not even clear on the context of that job: you mentioned going to school at the same time, but you also mentioned about being more risky than self teaching without a degree. So which one is which?

My recommendation for you is: Number one priority is your education. That's what is going to set you up for a career. (that's also even more important if you plan to ever work abroad)

So working backward from that:

• Do you need the money? If not, it sounds sketchy enough that it's too much risk
• If you need the money, how would they accommodate for your school hours?

From your description of the job, it sounds like a not so great idea as:

• It's not aligned with your learning for your career. You wouldn't learn more than working at a coffee shop
• There is some loaded (social) implications where people may try to take advantage of you
  So for the same amount of time, you could spend it on side projects and learn more from them

[coarse crag]

yeah it's like he's willing to pay for my degree but i will work for him for a certain duration (undecided because i haven't talked about it).

I do need money, but it's not urgent.
If I work, i think they will discuss on how to accommodate my learning while working.

yeah, i am not really interested in it mainly because it's not aligned with my future career at all. i do not want to work in another field except for IT.
"You wouldn't learn more than working at a coffee shop" This is exactly what i think.

I am worried that rushing to get a job now will hinder me from actually improving and getting a better job in the future. But yeah, they kinda offered me to pay for my degree that's why i'm asking if it's gonna worth all the effort. I just think that even if i go to college, i may not learn as well as i do now because it's gonna be very tiring.

[smoky quest]

yeah, makes sense

[coarse crag]

yeah, i think i'm just gonna tell them that it's gonna be too much for me.

[coarse crag]

thank you so much for this. this was very helpful to help me make up my mind.

[distant hull]

Hello;
please how can i solve this problem?

[dense mesa]

This channel is for career discussion, look at #❓｜how-to-get-help to learn how to open a help channel.

For future though, the red text explicitly tells you what the error is, and provides a message you can search online for answers

[patent willow]

do you have module opencv and you dont need to put brackets on cap.isOpened()
ask question in general or help channels next time

[timid lance]

import * from cv2

[timid lance]

try this when importing

[grim patrol]

Hey everyone, i want to be a python dev and want to ask how I would know if I’m ready to start applying for jobs.

[near ocean]

you'll probably never feel ready for a job so just apply regardless

[true harness]

at least look at the requirements first

[vapid jay]

what are requirements for basic python jobs?

[buoyant seal]

https://c.tenor.com/MFE6UiMEpRoAAAAC/math-zack-galifianakis.gif
Whatever would be sufficient for you to pass interviews and go through trial period

Increase in skills, just increases odds to pass interviews

different job positions = different requirements

check requirements at your local hiring web sites, what u need to know

some requirements aren't mentioned to know. Because they are assumed to be known / or recruiters don't know what needs to be asked in requiremetns

[vapid jay]

I meant a general list of what is minimum to obtain a job

[buoyant seal]

python is just a tool. Specify which job you wish to have with it

[vapid jay]

web development

[buoyant seal]

there is an official roadmap https://roadmap.sh/python + https://roadmap.sh/backend
And i also made my own more real map with SWE stuff mentioned https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg

[vapid jay]

thank you

[buoyant seal]

u a welcome to the dawn of the path.. https://youtu.be/j1mHIBF5-1k
Also it is highly recommended to get Computer Science (or at least STEM) Degree

otherwise getting fist jobs would be much more difficult

[frosty terrace]

So I've asked this many times before and I always got "it depends". So maybe a better question, how would I know how much I should ask for my salary? Is glassdoor reliable? I'm aware it's based on location, experience, and job title. I just want to be making sure that I'm not asking for way too much, but I also don't want to be undercut.

[near ocean]

You could use glassdoor yes, refine it as much as possible to match your situation
You could also use indeed insights or whatever their feature is called
The most reliable measure of "value" is what other offers you have at the moment, if you have 2 offers, one for 60k and another for 40k for a similar role then you could ask for one to match the other, usually going up in pay

Keep in mind that salary isnt the only deciding factor when considering an offer

[vapid jay]

I know it's tangentially related but would someone be willing to rate a college admission essay for me?

[delicate bane]

i have a weird situation again, but i think i should be able to survive

maybe

has anyone ever been in a situation where your current work may or may not be potentially undermining another team's work accidentally

💀

[summer roost]

Sure.

[near ocean]

Undermining how? I might be a victim of this lol

[smoky quest]

Either you said too much or too little 😄

[smoky quest]

Yes, it depends.
It's somewhere along the lines of: I am useful for that role to I am an equivalent to other applicants for that role.
With regards to the salary, it will depend on your location, experience and education and what you are willing to compromise on to get that first job. But the best indicator is to have multiple offers.

[delicate bane]

great

i think its the former

[dark moon]

Question

What sorts of stuff actually gets built on the industrial scale?

Apps? Servers?

[smoky quest]

Can you expand a bit the context and question?

[dark moon]

Actually, forgo this question

I know this isn't really the right channel for this, but I'll ask anyway

What would be the cost to develop a decent quality CMS like webflow?

I have to make a small business plan for English class, and it occurred to me that a subscription-as-a-service CMS might be a workable premise

[smoky quest]

That's like asking "how much would it cost to make a game" -> it depends.
While you do have to consider amdahl's law, doing it with 2 people will be very different from doing it with 2000 people.

That's why you need to focus first on the problem you are trying to solve and then think about a MVP and ways to validate your idea before sinking in too much cost

[dark moon]

XD Apologies for the vague question. Maybe I'll ask a different way

[smoky quest]

You may want to take a stab at something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Model_Canvas. It will help you frame your idea

[dark moon]

In addition to the cost of developing the application itself, what other concerns must I focus on in order to start up a SAAS based business? And with regard to development of the application, assuming hiring a small or medium sized software development company, and modelling after another well established framework which can be emulated

What sort of range of costs should I be expecting

I know that it depends, but the only way I can determine the specifics is to ask the questions (and do the research of course)

[smoky quest]

depending on the scope, it could be from 5 digits and more

[dark moon]

$300, 000 to $500, 000 sound about right?

[smoky quest]

You can do some back of the envelope guestimate: Number of engineers x number of hours to make + Misc. costs (taxes, offices, equipment, etc.)

[smoky quest]

People do launch micro-saas on shoestrings budgets, but you are talking about an equivalent of webflow which has years of dev behind it, so yes. So potentially more

[dark moon]

In theory, it could be launched in stages. I imagine webflow was at first. Start out with just a handful of the most useful features, and add more as revenue comes in

Ideally, you wouldn't be hiring a contractor to build it so much as becoming the dev team

[smoky quest]

yep. First, you want to validate your idea and find a product/market fit. THEN you scale

[dark moon]

I think you might be too young to use discord, friend. What I can tell you though is this: learn HTML and CSS (there are a million and one tutorials on youtube) and also learn Javascript. You'll know in your heart when you're ready to start taking on full websites. You'll also need a solid understanding of SQL and database technologies. Python is not a language used for website development, though it can be used to build the servers in the backend. Start with HTML, CSS, and Javascript. Then move on to SQL, Databases, and server side technology. This should take you 6 months to a year. Come back when you've done this and we'll talk next steps.

[dark moon]

Well, I know the model is sound. Chromium is used to leverage web graphics for applications all the time (the discord app is built in chromium), and the webflow business model is obviously quite effective. Translating webflow, on a technical level, for use with application to desktop applications wouldn't require too much of a departure from the original application, though it would likely require a greater number of prebuilt widgets and fuller support for backend custom code.

[smoky quest]

You don't know the model is sound.
Two different companies starting on the same idea at the same time may end up with completely different products.

Furthermore, assuming you are doing a webflow competitor, you would have them as competition

[dark moon]

Good god recursive

Would it kill you to have something proactive to say? You're really not helping. Obviously I know that starting a business is a massive endeavour with many pitfalls

But all you ever have to say is "you can't, you can't, you can't"

And yes, I do know the model is sound. On paper it looks great — and yes, I do understand the difference between a business model on paper and the actual process of implementing it

[smoky quest]

welcome to leadership \0/

That said, it's interesting you see ending up on different models from the same idea as something negative. I find this especially exciting and positive. It means there are so many problems to solve and so many markets to find that the possibilities are endless

[dark moon]

I don't think its a negative. I think this'll be a fun challenge

I'm just feeling a bit patronized. I'm here trying to ask the questions I need to ask, and gather the data I need to gather to be able to do some further informed research. And all I'm being told is "don't", "you havn't thought this through", and having tiny nits picked in the very generalized assumptions I'm making just as a matter of getting solid ground under my feet before doing further research

Of course I havn't thought it through >_> The point of the assignment is to do the thinking it through.

[smoky quest]

I am patronizing because it's a tough endeavor and saying you are confident in your model is one of the worst thing to say when doing a startup (I know it's hypothetical for your homework).
One of the first thing books/people recommend is to actually validate your model and not make any assumption. So if I was to grade any homework on starting a business, I would look for these steps and how you hypothetically went through it.
The "build it and they will come" approach just doesn't work.

I would also recommend to come back with a doc. I would be more than happy to proactively point at the missing parts

I also went through the steps of starting companies/products from scratch. So been there done that

[pastel thunder]

is working with someone for equity, when company hasnt been founded yet, makes you co-founder??

[smoky quest]

it's more of a honorary title than anything. It comes down to how much control you have. Ex: if they give you 1%, you would more likely be a founding engineer and would unlikely be part of the funding discussions and such

[dark moon]

I might just take you up on this

[smoky quest]

I also forgot to mention but I have a list of questions I ask myself to validate ideas. I am happy to share it with you too.
The more concrete steps I would recommend would be:
Understand the model (questions, business canvas, etc.) -> scope out some experiements -> scope out a MVP.
And then with each scope, it will be easier to device the effort, time and means required to get through them

[dark moon]

In this business plan

The actual document, would one expect the section on market viability to come at the beginning or the end?

[smoky quest]

go top down and start with the what/why before going into the how

[dark moon]

So one logical sequence might be... ```
Overview
The Product
Market Viability
Development
Deployment
Post-Deployment
Finances
Legal Stuff
Conclusion

[smoky quest]

I would add "the problem" after overview

your product is a solution, but you need to introduce the problem first

Not sure if you include this in the market viability or not, but I would also expect something about the customers (who are they? What's their persona? What's the TAM?)

In general, pitches, would put the product after the problem and market

[dark moon]

Nice

[smoky quest]

In a sense it's no different than the late night commercials. You see someone struggling with their problems (ex: house wife middle age trying to clean something and that's not working). And then they introduce the solution, the miracle product

[dark moon]

Nice, again

https://tenor.com/view/cool-im-so-tom-cruise-gif-13209253

Recursive, the sentient TypeError and the man with the plan

[smoky quest]

but sometimes patronizing

[dark moon]

❤️ I love you guys, I do

I think you guys are just so used to dealing with new programmers (or people who've only just yesterday gotten it in their minds that they want to do x) that the default is to assume the person asking the question knows nothing

[coarse crag]

hahaha yeah, i mean, their default perception is technically not wrong since the majority of the people who come to ask here don't really know much.

[dark moon]

Smol

[coarse crag]

yes? 🤣

[dark moon]

https://tenor.com/view/kitty-gif-25023528

Nothing. Just smol

[coarse crag]

hahaha that's cute, but i'm afraid we're gonna get nagged at because it's off topic 🤣

[dark moon]

Anyway, I've been having an off topic help session in here way too long. It wasn't supposed to be so inappropriate to the channel

If anyone wants to continue working with me, I'll be over in #software-architecture

[coarse crag]

good luck with your thing!

[near remnant]

How long does it usually take to get an offer? I got an offer but currently waiting for the CEO's approval. Should I send an email to the hiring manager asking whats up?

[smoky quest]

should be reaaaally soon. Like a 2 days at most. Anything longer will have a dramatically reduced likelihood

[summer roost]

that depends a lot on the company, I think. Smaller companies may have single person bottlenecks where if one person is on vacation it adds a week to their reply times

[near remnant]

Ah okay, unfortunately I got called by the hiring manager on Wednesday afternoon, telling me I got the job. She said she still need to talk to the CEO and make the contract etc on this Friday, but I havent heard anything.

Maybe just send her an email asking for an update? I think it wouldn't hurt.

[smoky quest]

yeah, that's a long time

Remember that time kills all the deals. They run the risk you go with someone else, and you do run the risk they are waiting on another candidate

From the company's perspective they want to close the deal asap so they see you are excited about it and you don't come back with a counter offer

[near remnant]

They are not waiting for anyone. They made the role for me, basically lmao.

So i guess im just gonna send an email

Like, whatever, cant hurt

[summer roost]

in general, if someone says they'll do X by Y date, and by the end of Y date they still haven't done X, they won't be offended if you reach out and check in.

[near remnant]

Ah okay

So, is it ok to send an email during weekend?

She said I can call or email her if i have questions

[summer roost]

sending an email is fine. They'll just answer it Monday. I wouldn't call on a weekend, though.

[near remnant]

Sure

Best case she will respond before Monday

[summer roost]

that's unlikely, but if she does it would be a bad sign, in my opinion

[smoky quest]

Glad to hear that!

That said, from my experience, if I had a penny every time someone said something like that but it turns out that it wasn't true...

[summer roost]

it'd suggest poor work-life balance at the company if people (even HR/recruiters) are doing work on weekends.

[near remnant]

I will just send an email tomorrow and thats it

[lusty karma]

I could really use some help

im an incoming freshman at a university. I have a decent CV built i am trying to look for some internships

[near ocean]

So what kind of help do you need?

[gilded valley]

Generally you get a better response if you have a more specific question. If you're looking for general advice to maximise your chances of getting an internship between your first and second years, then the three things are: Do as much extra-curricular stuff as possible during your first year of university to bulk up your CV, start applying relatively early in application season, and try to pick up as much leetcode as possible to get through the filters.

[hearty island]

seriously? asking me for a credit score before a job? is this normal?

[rocky cairn]

This company is a credit score company so maybe . I’ve never seen a company ask for credit score

[smoky quest]

that is not normal

[smoky quest]

I would be worried it's a scam

[hearty island]

yeah that sounds like a a scam to me too

[summer roost]

There are several major red flags there. The word "open" in bold, the information about other applicants ("seven other applications"), the weird site they want you to request the credit score from, the request for a credit score before even interviewing you... that's absolutely a scam.

it's common for an offer to be contingent upon a background check, and if they were actually worried about you being trusted with a company card, that's what they would do. Your credit report has nothing to do with whether or not you can be trusted not to misappropriate company funds.

But it does contain all the information needed for identity theft.

[balmy spade]

Given the site itself is a registered phishing site and TransUnion only offers pulls through their site, I agree it is 100% a scam.

Credit score for an interview, that's a new one for me.

[delicate bane]

email phishing is getting so sophisticated; they even target vulnerable peeps like job seekers

[hearty island]

crazy stuff

[frosty terrace]

What you guys think of this objective for a resume

Highly creative, innovative, problem solver with knowledge in several programming languages. With a passion for coding and background in business management, wanting to utilize my skills and further improve my skills as a programmer.

[summer roost]

Unless you're having trouble filling up a full page, I wouldn't put an objective on a resume. It's a waste of space that could be spent on more relevant things

[vapid jay]

Imo it really depends on the local customs. Like what people in your country normally do.

[summer roost]

are there countries where it's customary to include an objective?

[frosty terrace]

I just recently had a call for a software development and he said that it looks like I'm looking for a data analyst job. But I did want a software development job

[vapid jay]

Dunno. And you don't know either. But it's a fact some resume examples on the internet has that section.

[frosty terrace]

and my past job history isn't what I'm wanting to continue to do, I wanna do programming

[summer roost]

But it's a fact some resume examples on the internet has that section.
Yes, you can find resumes that have an objective section, but they're not the norm. It used to be more common 20 or so years ago, and I've never heard of a country where it's conventional to include it (as in, where it would make your resume stand out if you didn't include it).

if you're aware of one, you could tell me I'm misinformed - but it seems you're not.

[vapid jay]

I was wondering what you were going to write, typing so long lol.

[balmy spade]

That's a tricky thing with resumes. They work best when they are an objective view of the skills that your prospective employer can use. When you just have all your past skills down without a focus on how you'll apply them to the job you want, it's open to interpretation. From the sounds of it your resume reads like someone who can provide data analysis still.

[frosty terrace]

what you recommend

[summer roost]

Emphasize software projects, especially ones that exercise skills that data analysts wouldn't have - frontend development, maybe? Object oriented design? Web sockets?

fwiw - Google search results will be in a different order for everyone, but at least for me, pretty much every search result on https://www.google.com/search?q=should+you+include+objective+on+resume says "no".

[frosty terrace]

what about cover letters?

[vapid jay]

Lmao.

Dude, let it go.

[summer roost]

if you think the objective might help to sell you as a developer, that might be something you could get across better with a cover letter, yeah

[summer roost]

I'm providing a source for my claim.

what country are you in, btw, @frosty terrace?

[timid dust]

good day. just a beginner and would like to land a job as software engineer. any suggestions about where to start? thanks

[summer roost]

what's your level of education? What job do you have now?

[timid dust]

I'm a teacher by profession, but decided to shift in my career. Right now I'm enrolled in a web develoment bootcamp.. I don't know if it's enough though..

[summer roost]

what subject do you teach?

[timid dust]

not related to tech, I don't want to teach anymore that's why I decided to join this bootcamp

[smoky quest]

(the implication is a teacher teaching math or technology would have a bonus comparing to a literature teacher)

[summer roost]

right.

[timid dust]

yep I don't teach math/ any tech related field

[smoky quest]

Projects can be a nice addition as a way to demonstrate your skills and reduce the potential risk

[timid dust]

I'm done with the first part of the bootcamp that I'm in and have learned somthing about html,css, & bootstrap... Right now I'm learning javascript.. What would I be needing in order land a job in the future as SE?

[summer roost]

large companies have their own training staffs - you may be able to get into software dev via teaching, possibly.

[smoky quest]

https://roadmap.sh/frontend has a good list. Don't be too scared as it's exhaustive and beyond the expectations of an entry level engineer

[timid dust]

Are my skills enough though for an entry level job as SE?

[smoky quest]

That entirely depends on you and your bootcamp. I can't guess either, but I can say that's supposed to be the goal of your bootcamp and if it isn't, I would question that

[summer roost]

does the bootcamp you're enrolled with partner with any businesses to help place graduates in entry level positions or internships?

[timid dust]

I think so... the course is very intensive, they've been urging us to create our projects and compile it as our portfolio.. but I'm not sure if it's enough because it's solely focused on webdev instead of SE

[summer roost]

web dev is a type of SE. It's very unlikely that you'd have the skills to land a job outside of web dev after finishing the boot camp

[smoky quest]

that's expected since SE would typically take 3-5 years for a degree. You can't expect the same outcome with a few weeks in a bootcamp.
But focusing on webdev will help you get your foot in the door as a webdev

[timid dust]

Is there anything you would like to recommend/suggest?

[summer roost]

I second reading through https://roadmap.sh/frontend to look for new skills to prioritize learning

[vapid jay]

Nepotism networking? Like ask parents/relatives or friends/colleagues if they have an opening.

Like designing a website for your old school, that kind of thing.

[summer roost]

other than that, I suggest focusing your expectations and energies on landing a web dev job. Once you have a few years as a professional programmer it's easy to move into other types of development, but it can be quite hard to get your foot in the door without a CS degree. Web dev is the easiest area to break into.

[smoky quest]

In addition to the roadmap:

• Prepare your resume
• Make some projects. Don't just copy/paste youtube/tutorials
• Prepare some leetcode
• Continue learning
• Look at job ads and see where you stand when reading their requirements

[summer roost]

Also, a Data Structures and Algorithms course is something that likely won't be covered by a boot camp, and might be helpful when interviewing. Especially if your goal is not to stay in web dev long term.

[timid dust]

This is noted. Thank you so much...

this is the bootcamp I'm currently in https://zuitt.co/programdetails/

[vapid jay]

How's the job market in Philippines?

They don't have enough CS/IT graduates to fill the vacancies?

[timid dust]

That...i'm not sure 😅

[vapid jay]

I see. Good luck then.

[summer roost]

another way to figure out what skills to focus on learning is to look for entry level job postings that you could apply to, and see what skills they mention.

which will also give you an idea about how saturated the job market is.

[timid dust]

Woah. Thank you this is helpful. Would start doing that ^-^

[vapid jay]

Hi who would do his in python to put a gif interface like his ?

[summer roost]

I don't really understand your question, but it doesn't seem to be related to Python careers.

[vapid jay]

I am French I speak bad English

[summer roost]

OK. This channel is about jobs and careers. Your question seems like it should be asked in #user-interfaces

[novel cape]

is it possible/advisable to use one's participation in this discord as a reference on a resume

like if you help people here often

[summer roost]

that doesn't sound like a reference, that sounds like a hobby

[novel cape]

okay, but it should be included?

"I've been regularly helping people in a python discord for x many years"

[smoky quest]

That would be a sign you don't have anything better to include

So I would advise against it and instead have some project or something

[novel cape]

okay

what if its for like a help desk position or something

like, some sort of proof you've helped people in computers

[summer roost]

then... maybe? It seems like it might be more relevant for a help desk position than for a software dev position. But still, the question is if it's the most relevant thing you can list.

[novel cape]

thanks

just figure, say you spend hours in here helping people on their code, there's gotta be a way to make that reflect positively on yourself?

[summer roost]

well, I find helping others is one of the best ways to hone your own skills (both your technical and communication skills)

so in that sense it has a personal benefit

[novel cape]

i agree, though was wondering if anyone here has used it as a professional benefit

personal certainly, but can it help me prove why i could be good at a job

[summer roost]

I doubt it.

people reading resumes don't have long to focus on any given one, and knowing that you help people here isn't enough to tell them anything concrete about what skills you have, or even how well you provide help.

languages are just tools. The best language depends on the task.

[vapid jay]

Does your school have programming class? Or are you working already?

[vapid jay]

Oh you mean like people who put their stackoverflow reputation on resume.

[novel cape]

pretty much

[novel cape]

makes sense, thanks for contribution

[novel cape]

is that looked down on?

[smoky quest]

it's just internet points

[summer roost]

stackoverflow reputation is more of an indicator of how obsessively you check SO for questions you can answer than it is an indicator of your skills.

[novel cape]

so stack overflow would be a more valuable tool on resume than something about this discord

what if like a helper or moderator here

[vapid jay]

Hahaha.

[novel cape]

that still probably doesnt mean much?

[vapid jay]

Do you have difficulties getting interview or something?

[novel cape]

well

Say you are 50 credits into your 120 bachelors in cybersecurity (nearly done being a sophomore), and want some job/internship/pay in your field, is it worth applying this early? should one wait for junior/senior/post-grad? if so, what sort of jobs could be applied for? I havent built a resume but dont know if i should bother yet

[summer roost]

that's more interesting than just helping here without a role, but still probably less impressive than working on an open source project, or something like that.

[summer roost]

yes, you should apply for internships.

[vapid jay]

I see, just keep doing that if you enjoy it. Good luck. Just asking because I know kids who work professionally. Anyways, you're underage for discord. I hope it's not a joke/troll.

[novel cape]

there are remote internships, right? i know an okay bit about networks and like year 3 of python, not to mention many security practices

[summer roost]

yes, there are.

[novel cape]

im just starting to get into my ethical hacking courses and theres probably no internship for that kind of thing right?

are there bad or good things to look out for when applying for an internship?

is there a good spot to check for open internships?

sorry for all the questions, ive just never been an intern

[true harness]

job boards like indeed

[novel cape]

anything besides indeed.com off top of head?

[true harness]

linkedin

[novel cape]

noted, i do have a linkedin profile

[summer roost]

software internships should be paid. If you see an unpaid internship, run - unless it's for a non-profit or a government agency, at least.

[novel cape]

if its unpaid, its still good experience and looks good on resume?

[summer roost]

You might be able to find an internship with a focus on security, but if not, I wouldn't worry about it. Any internship in software development will be more useful to you than no internship.

[vapid jay]

Depends on your country.

[summer roost]

actually, so does my advice about paid internships

[novel cape]

U.S
Colorado if that makes easier

[summer roost]

then yeah, I would not take an unpaid internship.

[novel cape]

so i should seek paid software internships
which you do need a resume for?

[summer roost]

yeah, security or software development would both be interesting areas to apply for internships

and yes, you would need a resume to apply for jobs.

[novel cape]

For building internship resume, should i pretty much just put my school? or specific classes in the school that could pertain to the internship? is there a good resource for building a resume?

[summer roost]

focus on education, list previous jobs that you've had (if any, including tutoring, or TA-ship or research), list interesting projects you've built.

[novel cape]

should i list jobs not relevant to computers? like pizza places, construction, landscaping and kitchen work?
probably not right?

[summer roost]

You should, yes.

it's obviously less relevant than previous software dev experience, but it still shows that you can hold down a job, which is still useful information for selling yourself to a company.

[novel cape]

so my full education, full list of jobs ive worked, tutoring ive done, and "interesting projects"

[summer roost]

try a bit of both and see which one you find most interesting?

[true harness]

if you have a degree/one in progress, you don't need your high school and stuff

[summer roost]

I wouldn't say "full list of jobs", necessarily. Last 2 or 3, at least 2 years worth.

[true harness]

and also a list of skills/langs to get through ATS

[summer roost]

college GPA, if you've got a good GPA (better than 3.2, at least)

ah, yeah, list of skills, too.

[novel cape]

i havent worked since covid started, but before that did pizza delivery for 2 years building on top of savings to just coast through education. Currently 53 credits and have 4.0gpa (mostly because i dont work/school is my job)

so should i include my work from 2018-2020?(the last paid work i did)

[summer roost]

I would, yes.

[novel cape]

whats ATS?

[true harness]

applicant tracking system, basically an automated filter

[summer roost]

the robot that reads resumes before any people see them

[novel cape]

okay

currently only know python, 0 experience with other languages because i was told python all i needed for security. Mostly just an understanding of networking, my itf+, a+, and net+ from comptia

obviously put all my certs on resume

but should i be learning another language for resume building?

[summer roost]

C can be quite helpful for security. SQL could be as well (for things like SQL injection attacks), likewise JS/HTML (for things like XSS/CSRF attacks)

shell could be quite useful as well. And if you don't already know Linux basics, you should learn those.

[novel cape]

i have a linux machine that ive used on and off for couple years, and took a linux course. I took beginner/intermediate/advanced windows server classes and understanding working through command line (isnt that what shell is?)

So i should start learning c, sql, and js

[carmine moss]

Choosing between network and security and cyber security which one is a good option?

[summer roost]

isnt that what shell is?
yes, though I meant the bash/posix sh scripting language.

[novel cape]

is any of those best to learn before the others

[summer roost]

are you more interested in high level or low level things?

[novel cape]

high level being frond end?

scripts?

[carmine moss]

Choosing between network and security and cyber security which one is a good option?

Anyone please answer it

[novel cape]

good option for what? pay?

[summer roost]

high level being greater levels of abstraction and closer to the end user, low level being fewer levels of abstraction and closer to the hardware

[carmine moss]

For my future. Which field would be good to choose for my career?

[novel cape]

yeah, i thought high level was front end, low level is backend. I'm pretty sure id prefer high level. I like being able to see my results as if i was the user

[summer roost]

well, for security you're not developing new things, you're trying to break other people's stuff

[novel cape]

pay? learning curve? difficulty of work? gotta narrow down what you want in a career

[summer roost]

but, if high level is more interesting to you, then I'd learn SQL and JS next.

[novel cape]

sql before js?