career-advice

[onyx hemlock]

I've never really seen someone actually learn that way. So much of programming is self study.

[vapid jay]

like being on a laptop in the same room as another coder who is on their own computer

[onyx hemlock]

Pair programming is great.

[summer roost]

I don't mind sitting down with a person in-person to mentor them if I'm being paid to do it, but that's more effort than I'm willing to go through for free. I suspect more people feel the same way as me than not.

[vapid jay]

i want to paint my walls in EMF paint to block radio and wifi signals from coming out and going in the rooms

[true harness]

it's hard to get a good balance between the pair, i think. when it works it's great, ime it's hard to get it working, though

[worthy wharf]

So google selected me for an technical interview and I wanted to share the news with someone else that codes. I’m studying for the technical interview that might be in about a month or two. I’m doing it in Python.

[summer roost]

nice, good luck!

[vapid jay]

i hope you get it ! just be confident, it will not be impossible.

[onyx hemlock]

Congrats

[worthy wharf]

Thanks you guys 🙂

[true harness]

wait, they really schedule interviews a month away?

[balmy spade]

Pair programming is a draining activity for both participants. I've actually found more value with having a shadow sit with me for an hour as we plan the task. Then go off and code on their own, asking questions if needed. Finally sitting back in for about an hour (as needed) for a joint code review.
Actually sitting with someone for an entire task, pair programming the entire time, is so exhausting.

[worthy wharf]

She asked me to let her know when I’m ready

She reached out to me on LinkedIn

So I’m going for a month but it may be 2?

There’s so much to learn. She gave me a packet of stuff and said I need to learn these topics so I’m cramming*

[summer roost]

I've never found pair programming to be very useful, but pair debugging is amazing. It's great to be able to talk over the things you're trying to make sense of as you learn each new fact. That's a place where I think 2 people working together are more productive than working individually

[onyx hemlock]

I learned a lot pairing with more experienced developers. Having the less experienced person drive gives them the opportunity to question things a more experienced dev might take for granted.

[worthy wharf]

I would agree

Being able to bounce ideas off others is very useful

[onyx hemlock]

That kinda makes remote work shitty actually. It makes it harder to talk to teammates.

[worthy wharf]

Yea they said I would have to move

[onyx hemlock]

But overall it's pretty great, lol.

[worthy wharf]

To the location. No remote work

[onyx hemlock]

There are a lot of nice things about working in an office too.

[worthy wharf]

I agree very happy about it

[onyx hemlock]

Is it a big company?

[balmy spade]

My team has commented the same with me being remote. I don't understand though since I'm literally a button click away. I do make an effort, though, to always be on camera during calls.

[worthy wharf]

I think I can do it

[worthy wharf]

You know I’ve never enjoyed being on camera

In person, fine. On camera, nooo

[true harness]

yeah i definitely buy that

[balmy spade]

Interesting. What do you find different that gives you more comfort in person?

[onyx hemlock]

It takes more effort to be present during remote meetings.

[worthy wharf]

I just don’t like to be self conscious on camera with ways that I relax when sitting lmao

Like let me relax lol

[summer roost]

I promise you that no one on the meeting is judging your posture if your camera is on

[onyx hemlock]

I got a first job by hacking my webcam and making a custom overlay.

[balmy spade]

It's different than if you were in a meeting room or having a team meeting at the desks?

[worthy wharf]

I agree lol but it’s still a mentality thing

[worthy wharf]

Yea, because then I can’t see myself.

[summer roost]

having the camera on makes it much easier to tell when someone wants to cut in, or when someone is surprised by or uncomfortable with something that's been said. It really is helpful to have the nonverbal cues

[balmy spade]

Ahh, okay. There is that aspect. I've never had an issue with it myself so I don't think about it. I've learned to treat the camera as my focus point when speaking so that I appear to be looking at the room/caller. Different styles. Never a bad thing to have differences.

Unless you're running code in test and prod. Then I suppose differences are undesired. :3

[worthy wharf]

What do you have in production right now?

[balmy spade]

Half a dozen midware services powering the automation of the company's incident response platform.

[worthy wharf]

Oh wow lol I only have like a flash card program in C++, a discord bot in Python, I’ve done a flask web application (metrics dashboard) for an enterprise company

[balmy spade]

Mmm, metrics are good. :3

[worthy wharf]

Yesss I love numbers

So much fun

I did an excel data manipulation one for this report that took them like 4 hours to do into just a python script

So I was able to play with lots of data in Pandas

Have any of you used the plotly module before?

[smoky quest]

According to Urban Dictionary, gatekeeping is defined as, "when someone takes it upon themselves to decide who does or does not have access or rights to a community or identity".
So an example of gatekeeping would be to say you aren't a real developer because you don't have a degree

[coarse crag]

ooo

[coarse crag]

that just sounds like immature behavior coming from insecurities. i didn't think working adults would behave this way honestly. quite surprised this behavior still exists.

[summer roost]

they shouldn't, and if you see people engaging in that type of behavior at a company it's a red flag.

[coarse crag]

yeah, there are lots of better companies

[smoky quest]

you would think so. But you would be surprised how childish and immature one can be

[coarse crag]

oof.. do you see this thing happening often?

how was your experience working with these people? and how do you handle them?

[smoky quest]

I have seen all hands where they had to tell people to not go pee in the stall when the cleaning person is cleaning and other basic behavioral issues...

[smoky quest]

cut it short, and make them empathize

[coarse crag]

i see

most of my high school friends are very mature, i don't think i'm prepared to work with immature people. will learn that later.

[smoky quest]

it will depend on the culture set from the top. That should be very visible and will tell you whether you will be supported and that behavior not tolerated or if you should gtfo

[coarse crag]

ooo i see, ok 👍 thanks for the advice!

[vapid jay]

it's an authority complex, i get it

those who make the rules can break them but if you break the rules you will go to jail

there are some who have worked on their ego and i have respect for them. but many people who hold a badge or position of power have developed personalities and ego around it, formed an identity. they grasp onto that power as long as they can, they don't want it to diminish because they feel like it diminishes them personally. they wouldn't know who they were without it.

[summer roost]

it's not an authority complex, really, because it doesn't require any authority. It's more dismissing people with nontraditional backgrounds.

[smoky quest]

or traditional or any other filter (experience, gender, age, tools, languages, frameworks, previous employer, etc).
I would just abstain from generalizations given how it could happen from so many angles

[summer roost]

sure. It's just not related to authority, really, because it doesn't require one person to have any authority over another. It's just dismissing people with different backgrounds/tools/techniques/etc than you.

"You're not a real X unless you Y", where "Y" is something that the person doing the gatekeeping did or does.

[smoky quest]

sure. I totally agree on the authority part. I was more reacting to the last part about nontraditional backgrounds

[coarse crag]

Hmmm in the end it's their own loss since they are dismissing the fact that other people/tools/framework/experience/etc could be better than what they have now therefore making them unable to grow more and become a better person/developer.

[vapid jay]

people tell me they get hired all the time with nearly no experience or just a compTIA A+ cert

[summer roost]

as software devs?

[vapid jay]

no, just into the field of IT

someone i used to go to school with got a bachelor degree in computer science, got hired as a software dev and quit after 2 years to go freelance

probably makes a lot more money than he did at the company

[summer roost]

doing that with just a compTIA cert is pretty common, yeah.

[vapid jay]

big tech companies don't want to hire a software dev and train them for a year or two just for them to leave. it's not about turnover statistics either

i guess the bonus is you don't have an authority figure telling you what to do and you can work on projects you are passionate about rather than what the company wants you to work on

[smoky quest]

what would be the incentive to do so?

[vapid jay]

develop software for a company so they can sell it and make millions, or develop your own software so you make that money

[smoky quest]

What do you mean? Why would a company pay you on not-important tasks/projects?

[vapid jay]

it's important to them, maybe not you

these companies have been around longer than the lifespan of a human

[smoky quest]

it's important for the company to pay you on not-important tasks/projects?

[vapid jay]

many successful software developers dropped out of school to work on their personal software project then sold it and became young multi millionaires

[smoky quest]

based on which numbers?

[vapid jay]

google it

[smoky quest]

I have been through an acquisition. I know what it means

[vapid jay]

10 years at 150k salary is 1.5mill don't forget taxes and what you spend to live your life

[dense mesa]

[citation needed]

[smoky quest]

why would someone pay every random dev 1.5 millions for their software?

[vapid jay]

to sell it for more ot develop it further

why ask questions you already know the anwer to

[smoky quest]

so that means they expect to make more $$$ from it. How do they compute the expected revenue?

[vapid jay]

or they buy it because it reduces competitions, monopolizing the market

these are basic questions

[smoky quest]

they are basic questions because your statement is a falsehood

So asking basic questions gives you an opportunity to lay out the reasoning and to make sense of it

[coarse crag]

Even big companies make failures by buying a promising newly developed software and then losing millions because the future of the software is not what they expected it to be. I don't know how you can be so confident with your statements about those things.

[vapid jay]

it's true, they make bad purchases sometimes

[smoky quest]

Any company buying any software will have to do due diligence. That means inspecting the the target's revenue, customers, code, talking to people, etc.

[dense mesa]

@vapid jay maybe it would help if you could give us some context as to your background and experience

[vapid jay]

at the end of the day, the federal reserves printers are rolling and businesses operate on loans while banking is under the fractional reserve system

[dense mesa]

Fractional reserve banking is bad but I don't see how it's relevant

[coarse crag]

Yeah exactly. It's not common for any random developer to get paid millions of dollars for their newly developed software. His statements made it sounds like it was a very common and easy thing to do.

[vapid jay]

sorry i can not paint the big picture for you with just words. maybe a powerpoint presentation will suit you?

[smoky quest]

yeah no.
And keep in mind it also comes down to shares. So if you are the sole owner, sure, you get 100%.
But if you are a startup, the preferred shares would get the $$$ first and then it would be split according to ownership

(there may be some specific retention packages though)

[smoky quest]

Acquisitions are well documented and pretty simple in concept. You should not have to resort to snark comments

[vapid jay]

aquire, get a loan from the bank, bank generates money from fractional reserve, and the cycle continues

business relationships are built

company is in huge debt? bankruptcy and restructuring, bank bails them out and works out a repayment plan if it's chapter 11. or the bank acquires the company if its chapter 7

ceo already dragged it out for 10 years paying himself a 600k salary, he is set along with the VP and others at the top

[smoky quest]

the acquisition price can be roughly estimated with a 10x on the revenue at least.
Why would a company pay more for less or no expected revenue?

[vapid jay]

businesses are bigger than governments

it's not the governments making the rules, they are the puppets

[dense mesa]

[coarse crag]

I no longer have an idea on what the conversation is about tbh...

[smoky quest]

the companies are deciding themselves whether to buy an existing business or not though. The government has no place to play there other than the rate for whatever base loans

[smoky quest]

yeah, I am probably gonna get out of this discussion

[vapid jay]

commerce runs the world, what would people do otherwise? barter?

[dense mesa]

Yes

@vapid jay I understand you don't want civilisation to regress (not enough to keep your message up though) but this isn't careers related any more

[vapid jay]

hire me? am i hired yet?

[coarse crag]

This server is not for hiring or applying for jobs.

[vapid jay]

it's for python

[vapid jay]

let the mods moderate conversation little chicken

[coarse crag]

Well, ok.

<@&831776746206265384>

[ivory sluice]

smol_chicken is correct, this server is not for hiring or applying to jobs.

community members are permitted and encouraged to point out our rules to other members

we even have a nifty command for it

!rule 9 @vapid jay any questions?

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[vapid jay]

i acknoweldged that and said server is for python

go ahead and ban me i really dont care

butt buddies

[ivory sluice]

we don't infract on request, but based on how users interact in this community per our #rules and #code-of-conduct. users are also free to leave of their own volition quietly

[vapid jay]

alright i will find a cooler python server

caio

[honest pivot]

Right. So, careers...

Have you been faced with the choice between doing something you really love, or doing something you love a bit less, but would make you a lot more money? How did you think about it?

[smoky quest]

I did. Looked at it as a function. Eventually it tops off and the fun(x) starts to dominate it

[honest pivot]

What do you mean by that?

[smoky quest]

let's say I will offer you 1000$ if you stay for 4 years working for me with a pro-rated stay (ie. if you stay 2 years, you get 500$)
That's A LOT of money, but once you reach 900$, you already got most of it. Are the 100 remaining dollars worth the wait to do something more meaningful, rewarding or interesting?

Although in my case, the options of the next startups were already a lot more than the remaining 100$ from the example. BUT that was on paper

[honest pivot]

ah, so you're seeing the choice as having started with the thing that's making you a lot of money, with the option to move into the thing you will like better. My situation is the opposite.

[smoky quest]

That was too much money to refuse

[honest pivot]

(Well, hopefully will be soon, if I get offers)

[smoky quest]

I do want to retire before hitting 40

(although the current economic outlook does not seem to agree with it)

In general, it's easier to frontload the work and move up earlier than later

[coarse crag]

ooo

[smoky quest]

there is a reason I keep repeating to kids to get a fucking degree

[coarse crag]

i honestly thought you were over 40s..

[coarse crag]

i see i see, i do think degree is good but yeah, current economy is so bad. it's hard to even get a food everyday.

[smoky quest]

not sure if a compliment or not 🤔

[coarse crag]

it is a compliment 🤣 i generally think wise people are above 40s..

[near ocean]

i could have a higher paying career but after seeing my friends work 12-14h a day for it i think im just going to pass
not worth the effort and stress

[gilded valley]

The two are not mutually required. There are high paying not-high-stress jobs, admittedly those are much harder to aim for

[near ocean]

yea i dont think i could land one of those, but i guess my friends could help me get into the big banks which is pretty much exclusively high stress high pay

i think the goal for the next couple of years is to find a 4day workweek place lmao, fuck working

what are people's priorities in terms of deciding between offers btw?
I recently had an exit-interview-type talk with my manager and he asked about it, my priorities were:

1. Salary
2. WFH
3. Total hours
4. Kind of tech I use
5. A bit more structure in the workplace

So besides salary, how are you guys ordering the rest of the benefits (unless salary isnt that important for you guys)

[gilded valley]

For me

Salary > how enjoyable I find the actual technical work > total hours > work culture > WFH.

Right now I'd quite happily take 120k pa to work 14hr days, probably not for more than a few years though.

[torpid saddle]

I think that varies from person to person, but I'd personally look at salary as a function of hours actually worked (vs contracted to work) instead of an arbitrary number defined in your contract. Reality is often not reflected in the contract

[gilded valley]

WFH is tightly coupled with work hours as well. Not going into the office saves commute time and whatever time is required to get ready in the morning

[torpid saddle]

this is exactly what I mean

[near ocean]

yea not too sure about the 120k for 14h, i dont think i would manage it and my gf would be mad for sure lol

especially since it seems most of these salaries are full time in office

reminds me of uni times where you get up and out of the house while its dark, and you come back from work and its still fucking dark
that'd be depressing in the UK in the winter

[gilded valley]

£120,000+ working for a hedge fund or some M&A firm would be miserable for a year, but would probably give you a significant bump to future salaries for all jobs. And would give you considerable stock for moving into a more relaxed financey job at an asset manager or something

[peak halo]

healthcare benefits are a consideration for US workers. my company has adoption and tuition reimbursement benefits that I think are important.

do you count PTO under total hours?

[near ocean]

No, thats total hours worked in a regular week
Right now my contract is at 45, moving down to 37.5

[honest pivot]

I wouldn't accept 14h days, for sure

[near ocean]

PTO is another good one tho, currently at 20 (but 3 days off for xmas so effectively 17)

[honest pivot]

I have 25, but I use about half of them around Christmas to get a few weeks off 😁

[gilded valley]

28 is the minimum required in the UK, but that includes bank holidays

I think I also get 25

[near ocean]

Yea without bank holidays I get 20

Which is on the low side, iirc this next one in going to is also 25

[honest pivot]

Yeah, mine is 25 + national holidays

But Christmas and New Year's are falling on weekends twice in a row at the moment :\

[gilded valley]

Forgot to mention it above, Not-London is also very valuable to be in terms of jobs

[gilded valley]

That's fine right? You get replacement bank holidays in the Monday and Tuesday,

[honest pivot]

Not in my country of residence

[plucky pine]

Is ML a bad area for choosing career?

I mean is it as trendy as software developer

[gilded valley]

Ah fair. I was assuming UK, but there was no reason for that

[plucky pine]

and can someone earn well

[verbal fiber]

Afternoon/morning guys, I’m currently in my 2nd year of my degree. I’m looking to do a placement after this year but I was wondering if there are any paths I can take to undertake work now. I’ve got 4-5 years in Python including backend web dev and discord bot creation. Just wondering if there are any positions I could apply for?

[peak halo]

what country?

I'm not familiar with part-time positions being made available to students. did you apply for internships for this summer?

[verbal fiber]

UK. Didn’t manage to apply for any internships. I was in a position as an independent contractor for a year updating a commercial discord bot and had a few freelance website jobs but wanted something to help with real world experience.

I’ll check mine, cheers.

[dense mesa]

If you're at a Russell Group uni, they typically have pretty good careers support services but they're not great. You could apply for spring weeks and claim you're in second year of a master's (even if you aren't it doesn't matter), or apply for internships, as those are usually for penultimate year students

[verbal fiber]

I’m not but my careers service is quite good tbh. I’m going into my second year so this time next year I’m hoping to be in a placement year. Starting applying in the next month or so. But I only have a portfolio of completed assignments, a couple live websites, and the rest is offline evidence such as discord bots, unused websites and scripts. So I thought a bit of experience before that time would be a great help. If anybody has any ideas of projects which will help my portfolio that would be appreciated as well.

My specific area is software development or cyber security. I know that’s broad but i generally enjoy the vast majority of cs.

[dense mesa]

From what you've said, it may be better to spend time applying for springs or internships, as you seem to have good projects already

[verbal fiber]

Springs?

[dense mesa]

Spring weeks

[patent breach]

Guys can you help me maybe? Im searching companies as an business analyst. Do you have any ideas btw im from Germany and im not shy to leaving 🙂

[dense mesa]

There should be job boards and equivalents available for Germany/Europe/the world, this server isn't used for advertising positions

[patent breach]

Ok thx

[delicate bane]

if youre looking to go the cybersec route, the Security+ certificate is a good start (in addition to other things) for entry-level jobs, at least in that states. not sure if that translates to over there. you could pick it up easily if you have some cybersec experience

[marsh leaf]

How popular or useful are scala and haskell in finding a job that my uni teaches?(My classes yet to start but ive nvr heard of these languages)

[delicate bane]

ive heard of scala from the data engineering world. its used a lot for parallel processing jobs

i want to say spark is natively in scala but i cant remember

[magic canyon]

print("hello guys")

[dense mesa]

Hi, do you have a careers related question?

[magic canyon]

Nah, I'm just 15yr old intermediate programmer

Well in which fields python is useful?

[robust breach]

Hello guys , I am 32 years old guy from Developing background in PHP. I have been in field since 2014.
In between I have been in some tough situations like My mom passed away , I met with an accident.

As a result of that I was forced to swich many IT companies as well as development fields.

Right now I am in situation that I can not claim any field where I have mastered.

My question is should I take fresh start or have to switch to something else ?

[gilded valley]

It's written in Scala yeah, but a lot of Spark code gets written in Python via PySpark at this point

(which is very sad, because the API you get in PySpark is just a subset of the Scala API, and Scala is very nice and easy to pick up for anyone who knows Python)

[gilded valley]

Scala is used for Spark quite often, and for a few other esoteric things (I think it gets used in heavy industry a little), Haskell is barely used - but that doesn't matter, if you get comfortable with Scala then picking up both Java and Python is very easy, and if you get comfortable with Haskell most FP languages will be easy to pick up - so you end up with a very solid foundation to build on

[delicate bane]

yeah i also heard debugging pyspark is an absolute nightmare since stack traces are going to be in multiple languages sometimes

[dawn leaf]

spark in scala >> pyspark

[pure raft]

Is a b.s. in information technology as good as a b.s. in comp sci

[peak halo]

generally, no. information technology is usually a business degree for doing technical support-like work. CS degree holders are more likely to work as developers and are generally paid more than IT degree holders.

then there's information science, which I think is generally as prestigious as CS. but I'm not quite sure.

[hearty island]

why does my internship think i'll spend $90 on two udemy courses, complete them, and then get the internship? shouldn't i actually learn on the job and get paid to do stuff with it? it sounds very scammy to me. imo internships are essentially being paid to learn and then using that knowledge to accomplish something that helps the company

[pure raft]

Thank you so much homie

[smoky quest]

Can you give more context about your situation?

Are you a student currently enrolled? Is the company conditioning your internship on two udemy courses?

[hearty island]

student currently enrolled and yes that's the company condition

[smoky quest]

Did they say why? As a student, you would already have the background required

[hearty island]

it's a company that exclusively deals with data engineering like dbt and snowflake, so i don't have the background for it

[smoky quest]

Guessing, is they want to make sure they don't have to hold your hands.

For internships, companies are willing to train you but they don't want to teach you.
They must have had a bad experience with a prior intern who couldn't do anything. If the udemy class is paid by the company, I would not mind, it's free learning

[hearty island]

well i don't mean teach i mean learn by the intern doing things and asking questions

unfortunately it's money from my own pocket, not the company which is why i'm not a fan. and i agree, it's probably why.

[smoky quest]

May be worth asking about it

[hearty island]

well the people at the company actually work under the professor at UCLA who's the ceo of the company

they're all students studying for MSBAs

i wouldn't mind if i had a udemy discount, but it's $90 for two courses and i'd really rather not.... maybe if it was $40

[delicate bane]

you could ask the company to reimburse you

[hearty island]

i did, they said i'm the one who asked for the internship so i should pay 💀

kind of a no you

[smoky quest]

do you have any other potential internships?

[hearty island]

i have a potential one for next summer

that interview is on the 12th

[smoky quest]

Then it sounds like it's up to you, whether you accept their condition or not and whether the opportunity in learning is worth to suck it up

[hearty island]

i think i'd rather just continue to make projects and learn on my own

[delicate bane]

btw udemy courses fluctuate like every month (90% decrease sometimes). its a weird business model that i am not a fan of 🥴

takes advantage of that consumer mindset

[hearty island]

if you go into incognito mode and search the course up, it'll give you a discount

but when you login to buy it, it'll give you the full price 🙂

[delicate bane]

tragic. when you showed me the first time, it was only $20

[hearty island]

it still is

just not when i sign in

[delicate bane]

nah its $90 on my end

[hearty island]

welp fuck it then

[crystal wren]

Hello everyone, i have question if i have to go into data analytics, is learning python at beginner will be enough and fundamental to move on learn data analytics ?

[hearty island]

statistics too

[crystal wren]

Does learning data structures and algorithms course be enough after learning python basic, do you have any resources for Statics course ?

[buoyant seal]

I highly suspect you are expected to learn SQL too

[dense mesa]

Is this for a data analytics job?

[rocky gust]

it’s better to be advanced in the language so you are more sought after. having beginner knowledge, while handy, won’t make you as valuable. and of course it goes without saying you know more about python if you are advanced in it

[halcyon karma]

Just google "Low-stress jobs" by youreself, :p

[coarse crag]

i think he mentioned that he doesn't have a college degree because he was majoring in art in secondary school, so it's not possible for him to get into tech related major in university. if he wants, he has to redo secondary school. so in this case, i don't think data analytics/science is a good option for him since the field most often requires you to have a degree right? wouldn't it be easier for him to pursue dev jobs?

[dense mesa]

Data analytics should have a lower barrier to entry, as it's not dev or data science, but depends on the person and location

[coarse crag]

ah i see, i thought you would need something like a math/cs related degree even for data analytics.

in my country it seems that dev jobs are easier to get if you don't have a degree at all

[dense mesa]

For data science it would be very typical to have a technical background, and quite difficult (if not completely prohibitive) to self teach. Software engineering would be "easier" without a degree, but data analytics should be more straightforward than either.

Since data analytics isn't concerned with a lot of the technical parts, it's more about finding trends and insights, which doesn't require a lot of background

[dense mesa]

Are you comfortable saying which country? Haven't heard of this before and would be interested to learn more

[coarse crag]

indonesia

[dense mesa]

Ah ok, my experience is in the UK so everything I say is limited to that region

[coarse crag]

i see.. i think it's mostly because indonesia is yet to be exposed to alot of new tech related fields. so dev jobs are the majority and data analytics is relatively new, that's why most people here would think data analytics would require more than normal dev jobs.

[dense mesa]

That makes sense, I've heard of similar perspectives/industry mindsets in south east Asia as well

[coarse crag]

oooh

anyway thank you for your reply 🙏

[cold granite]

deep learning scientist

talking about deep learning can any of you recommend deep learning in python books, thanks

😄

[solemn valley]

Does anyone have opinions on OSSU Computer Science? It's a GitHub repo that collects free or inexpensive online courses that are supposed to replicate the core curriculum of a CS degree. It's been recommended to me a few times. I recently graduated with a master's in data science and have a bit more than two years of serious programming experience, mostly self-taught. In hindsight I would have done a CS degree in undergrad, but I didn't realize I loved programming until I started learning it before entering grad school. I've mostly learned by doing my own projects so far, but I wonder if it would be better to get more exposure to formal theory and methods.

I've realized I don't really like the kind of programming data science involves: lots of data munging and repetitive code to train models. I started doing Advent of Code the year before last, and it made me realize I preferred those kinds of problems, with more exact solutions and constraints. I think it would be hard to become a software engineer given my background, but data engineering might be possible.
https://github.com/ossu/computer-science

[shadow moss]

Generally yes but obviously exceptions will exist.

[coarse crag]

i see..

[brittle thorn]

Like starbucks

[arctic rock]

😫 😩

[royal token]

can anyone define to me what a "software engineer" actually is?

[summer roost]

In most countries, it just means a person who is paid to write software. In a few countries, it means a person who has passed a test that certifies that they have the required skills for writing software.

[manic rock]

a person with the skills to develop, maintain, update software.

[delicate bane]

or lots of sql or lots of dashboards. all the dashboards

tableau > powerbi

[coarse crag]

does the word develop include "designing a software system"?

[summer roost]

at least in the US, some might be called a software engineer even if they are relatively junior and can't design systems.

[coarse crag]

i see

[coarse crag]

but in the end, software engineer includes designing one right? because even if junior software engineer can't design systems, at least they will be expected to in the future?

[summer roost]

that's a skill that senior engineers would be expected to have, but not a skill that junior engineers would necessarily have.

[coarse crag]

i see, okie 👍 thanks!

[manic rock]

yes

[manic rock]

i think its something a junior software engineer has to know how to do

im a software engineering student

and have to learn about the system design

[coarse crag]

oh really?

[coarse crag]

would you mind telling me what is it that you're learning about in the system design part of your course?

i don't know much about system design

or more like i don't know at all actually

[manic rock]

well if a company need a website

with some required function

we need to create everything from backend development(with python), frontend(HTM/css), database structure(with mysql)

[coarse crag]

including the best practices? like what types of database to choose, and the architecture of the software itself? (i know architecture is a different topic but is it included in the system design?)

[manic rock]

prob yeah

[coarse crag]

i see

[manic rock]

i dont think it really mater that much what practices to use

[coarse crag]

oh? why

[manic rock]

depend what knowledge you have, and what the company uses or prefare to use

[coarse crag]

oooo

[manic rock]

but its kinda irelavant when your a junior

[coarse crag]

yeah kinda

probably, knowing what a system design is, is enough for a junior

[manic rock]

mostly seniors have something to say, and that is a long road to get there for me so i odnt know yet

yes

[coarse crag]

i see i see

thanks, and good luck!

[manic rock]

just missing, good luck to you to

[last epoch]

hello programming community I would like to develop an application that concerns the school environment and that can be helpful for teachers and / or students, do you have any ideas?

[near ocean]

Yes, this isnt the appropriate channel, use #python-discussion

[buoyant seal]

it would be quite universal to say, that software engineer is
person who received higher education in CS and succesfully passed trial stage of the first work. Then we could technically already say that it is software engineer, but fully software engineer becomes software engineer when graduates to a middle rank.
as alternative a person can be software engineer without higher education technically. It will just take much more work experience, and person should reach middle rank at least, then we can say for sure that the person is qualified.

So tldr: i think software enginners are any person who reached middle rank in software development.
Juniors are still people in training... like doctors, they need to pass internship/ordinance/junorship in order to qualify for a person capable to develop for sure

P.S. In some countries as it was mentioned, software engineer can be only certified person though, but i think a work is enough certification on its own

P.p.s. higher education just shortens the amount of road to rich middle rank, and tells companies u a likely better option for investment

[royal token]

ohhhh thanks guys for answering me guys!

[marsh leaf]

I need advice on whether to pick statistics or management as noncomputing electives in my first year as computer science major

[buoyant seal]

Any Senior Dev is kind of required to grasp some management stuff at some point.

On another hand I have slight disbelief that u will learn anything useful in a short university course regarding it in university.

Statistics is stuff that can be learned without any ambiguity.
Can I claim statistics being any useful in software programming? Technically no. Unless you plan to know more Data Science later. Then it is useful

So... The choice between the stuff u will be obligated to know as software engineer at some point anyway

Or learning small intro to data science

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. The problem with management stuff... That there are quite different opinions. Some books about management just straight teach the most toxic way.
There needs to be really carefully chosen material to learn regarding it.
Preferably with already experience in it, in order to check it from your own experience and somehow validating it

So. Hard call what to choose

Well. I think statistics will be probably a safer choice. Statistics is the hard skill(as opposite to soft skill) and more important to have in earlier career

On another hand if management course is good, it would be more beneficial for generic software engineer

That is a really good option too, asking fellow next year students their opinion about courses

[marsh leaf]

thanks a bunch both of you! will definitely look into that

[pseudo bone]

I gave an interview in this organization where the first interview "The technical one" went great as said by the person taking the interview. The second interview also went well as per my understanding. The interview was on I was told that I will hear about the decision latest by Tuesday of next week. I call them Tuesday the HR guy says there had been some delays he will let me know on Thursday or Friday. On Friday HR guy calls me and says "We really like you and we really liked your interviews. however, I cannot get in touch with my supervisor to talk about your case. I am really embarrassed and it's unprofessional on our end for the delay. We do really like you and even if the current position is filled I will try to offer you another position that you applied for. I would like you to be a bit more patient but if you get another contract please let me know so I can press the "Red Button" and make sure we can get back to you as soon as possible."

I am being recommended by my loved ones to say that I have a contract and I can delay my decision only for a week and I would need your decision by the end of the week.

What should I do?
Any suggestions?

[gritty rivet]

It really depends on your own preferences, alternatives, etc. The more you rush a decision the more you risk a negative one

If you feel you must give them that ultimatum, it's not unreasonable. But why? The default approach to me would be to keep applying for other jobs and let them decide on their own timetable

[vapid jay]

That’s the most cap I’ve ever seen

[native narwhal]

what is that CAP short for

[proud falcon]

Hello guys

I learned python syntax now im learning python libraries , is tkinter worth it?

[analog sun]

Its slang for a lie

[analog sun]

tkinter is fine for a gui library, but you might have better luck asking in #user-interfaces

[near remnant]

what do you guys recommend for learning while in the interviewing period? meaning i have 2-3 interviews every week. i dont want to start making a new project so i thought maybe watching videos, reading books or udemy? im not sure

[gritty rivet]

If technical interviews, that's when I do my most intensive LeetCode practice

[honest pivot]

I've just been taking that time to chill, the interviews are stressful enough. But I'm also working full time

[analog sun]

Hello, please respect channel topics and do not meme dump. Thanks

There isn't one, this is a Python server focused on the Python programming language

[nimble salmon]

guys do rankings in kaggle matter. I personally worked my ass of in this competition to build a model. My model rating according to their metric was 0.783 (number 1 is 0.801) . I'm placed like around the 60% mark on the leaderboard and I kinda realised most of the guys above me are just copy pasting other scripts. I really wanted to include the project on my CV cuz I fr think I did a good job but the ranks too low

^ I am just a 19 yo uni student starting my ML adventure , this is my first project

[peak halo]

I work for an AI company, but I don't participate in hiring. I've never heard a coworker mention kaggle in any context.

[shadow moss]

Maybe? What companies care and don't care about is always extremely variable. Even if they do, you likely still need to get past HR unless HR has been told to look at Kaggle rankings.

[nimble salmon]

I mean I'm really not looking to get a job with this. Im doing Elec Eng and I just want to like do some ML research in my own time to build up my CV for a Masters course in applied ML

[vapid jay]

Is it normal for a T1 help desk position to require 3 years experience?

(Sorry I don't know if this is the correct place to ask this but I'll try) Hi, so I just passed out of high school and can't decide if I should choose Mechatronics or Computer Science for bachelors.
In short, I'm more oriented towards machines, microcontrollers and robots and all, and find them more interesting than anything else, hence Mechatronics; and I (almost) equally like programming too, hence the secondary choice is CS.
Mechatronics is actually very new/rare (atleast in my country) and I'm afraid about the career opportunities and even a good college/uni, but the CS is like the most demanding one that 7/10 people goes for it.
In case if someone is pursuing them and might be able to share their experience and all, it'd be a great help! Thanks :)

[graceful mason]

Not a mechatronics engineer, but I work as a software engineer for robots at a company that has an emphasis on mechatronics and my dad is a mechatronics engineer

Mechatronics 100% involves computer science/programming, and I think with a degree in mechatronics you'd be as likely to get a lot of CS positions as a CS graduate would. A mechatronics degree also gets you a lot of specialist knowledge that CS graduates don't have and could open up doors to a lot of higher paying positions. If you have a genuine interest in robotics then I'd consider going for a mechatronics degree

Might need to be open to moving to a different country if wherever you live doesn't have opportunities though, because you can't work fully remote

[peak halo]

I haven't heard of mechatronics. Is this the same as computer engineering?

Just so you know, "demanding" and "in demand" mean different things. You probably meant to say that CS is "more in demand".

If you say "CS is demanding" this means that it's difficult and requires a lot of time.

[peak halo]

It sounds like Blartzel knows what they're talking about.

[peak halo]

Do you just have that if people ask what mechatronics is?

[graceful mason]

It comes up a surprising amount :P, think it comes from the wikipedia page

[delicate bane]

hmm interesting. what is the difference between mechatronics and computer engineering?

my cousin went through a program that was ECE or "electrical + computer engineering" and seemed to have learned many of the same topics

[vapid jay]

Oh that's great to hear it even opens the doors for lot more opportunities. But I heard few people saying that, like.. if a company needs to build a frontend, they'll probably look for a frontend software engineer instead of a mechatronics one who has specializations in multiple fields, same goes with other cases. So that basically left even less opportunities than a CS/mechanical/or some other would have. I don't know how much of it is true tho.
And yes I genuinely have interest in robotics from a long time, even more than just the programming since it includes coding and all too.
Also to add, mechatronics is very rare/new in my country that it's hard to find a college to study this branch. Only a few provides this option. So I'm thinking to attempt the next SAT. Might need to risk the college I've been selected for in my country tho but hope that's gonna be worth it.

[vapid jay]

Ahh yes I meant "in demand". Sorry English isn't my first language so please don't mind if I mess up a little.

[peak halo]

@sweet dawn this is not a platform for recruitment, so I had to remove your message.

[graceful mason]

computer engineering is a lot more softwarey, while mechatronics views software as a tool for controlling the hardware. autonomous robots can be considered as pure mechatronics (if you ignore a lot of the high-level control stuff)

[sweet dawn]

I am not a recruiter. I just had a chance to help people but its fine.

[peak halo]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[peak halo]

you agreed to this when you joined the community. you might want to re-read the rest of the rules.

[graceful mason]

front-end is on the opposite side of the CS spectrum to mechatronics so that makes sense, in a way it requires a lot more creativity than actual CS knowledge. If you want to break into robotics/embedded systems then a mechatronics degree will give you a lot of specialist knowledge that a CS degree will only scrape the top of.

[vapid jay]

I understand. Thanks a lot for your help! I'll research about it a little more before making any decision 😅. Would you mind if in future in case I DM or mention you here in this channel regarding the same? Thanks again :)

[graceful mason]

Go ahead, probably better to ask here to get multiple points of view

[buoyant seal]

What is a difference between Mechatronics and Embedded software development?

[graceful mason]

It's kind of hard to categorise all the different terms but I think of it as:

• mecatronics is combining moving parts (mecha) with electronics
• realistically this is always going to be controlled with some sort of embedded system

A mechatronics engineer might be tasked with designing 1st generation autonomous robot that uses motors to move. They'll need to design the frame, then wire everything up (using PCBs designed by some specialist electronics team), and then write the firmware that allows you to control the motor.

That firmware will start low-level (outputting torque demands) and become more complex (figuring out trapezoidal motion profile and translating to torque demands)

Once you have a system put together and a way to control it, you'll pass it on to a team of embedded software engineers who can do all the higher-level things (receiving movement commands, deciding where to move to)

Everything is sort of blurred together at the end of the day because mechatronics is a very broad field that includes embedded development

[half eagle]

Here some things else come up

[cosmic hinge]

+one reason to study data science

[obtuse talon]

pov: he is the supervisor

[bright helm]

another low stress job is a twich streamer

[near ocean]

i dont think any software dev job is a high stress job except maybe game dev
i wouldnt characterise them as low stress either tho, i think its a healthy amount of stress, its still work with deadlines and deliverables but its not excessive

[buoyant seal]

A state of complete disinterest to the current project... It kind of becomes difficult to code because of it.
Kind of apathy
How to deal with it?

I understand that project is in bad code state. Problem is this bad state Is the only approved way to go. I think I feel lack of motivation... Because I don't feel like I would have any growth in it

Or may be I have completely messed up work life balance

[gritty rivet]

Ung, I wish I had a good answer... I just keep trying to minimize distractions and get into the flow and hope it works eventually

[buoyant seal]

I think I should trying getting sleep during nights

And I think I probably need some vacation may be

Oh and a mug of coffee can do a trick

[delicate bane]

i heard game dev is crazy

[near ocean]

A flatmate from uni went into gamedev, maybe I should ask
I dont actually know how it is, work environment wise, everything i've heard is from people on the internet (who may not even be real)

[graceful mason]

depends on your workplace - one of my friends had such an awful experience at his first software job that he left the field entirely

[near ocean]

Was it a startup? I was actively avoiding startups after i graduated cause i thought the many hats kind of role would be much more stressful

[graceful mason]

no, some well-known company that develops simulation software for aeronautical/space stuff

[delicate bane]

[gilded valley]

Fintech roles definitely can be

[gilded valley]

(this was the message I meant to reply to)

I've heard horror stories from people working at JPMorgan in London. Working 10hr days and constantly dealing with shouty angry traders

For pay that was not commensurate with the miserable culture

[near ocean]

I've heard terrible things about JPM too, for software dev positions and not

[near remnant]

If I had the final interview at a company and they invite me to a short, 10 minutes meeting, would it mean its an offer? Or what could it mean? I mean if ifs rejection, I guess they would just send me an email or call me at max.

Sorry if its dumb question im just confused

[livid moat]

smh

[summer roost]

It is more likely an offer, or it could be an attempt to clarify something about your resume or work history or references or something.

[near remnant]

I guess after final interview, if I didnt get it, they wouldnt even bother setting up a call. So im positive but not overconfident haha

[delicate bane]

[royal zephyr]

e¸

[limpid marlin]

I wanna have a career in Data Science and Machine Learning. Any tips ?
I've learnt Python basics and am a intermediate type in python.

Do projects play a role in career making and can I get into the field even if I don't have any projects
I'm not saying I don't wanna make projects but currently my project count is 0

I'll be graduating in 2023 with Bachelor Degree in Computer Science with Specialization in Cyber Security

[empty moat]

Have you guys considered starting up a business

I'm still young so I may not knowo what I'm talking about

Assuming you have enough capital from your job

Or your parents give you theirs, or maybe you convinced some investors

It sounds fun working for 16 hours idk why

Like working for long hours and you either get reward or experience (or both)

[dense mesa]

It could be rewarding but you're taking on a huge amount of risk to most likely compete with established businesses

[empty moat]

Is it mostly about the issue of gaining capital

So the risk becomes big because it's hard

[vapid jay]

Just work for someone omegalul no need to start a business

[empty moat]

But what if you regret that you didn't, providing that you had wanted before

Let's say you have the retirement cash from a stable 9/5 job

[rose charm]

what should i expect to learn if i plan on doing a degree in computer engineering

[vapid jay]

Shit ton of math/calculus and physics

[rose charm]

would i learn about hardware stuff

[near remnant]

Data Engineering is much easier to get into than DS

[dense mesa]

No

[near remnant]

Whats the?

❓

[gritty rivet]

Depends on the business. It doesn't take much capital to write software if you don't need a big group of engineers

Most successful entrepreneurs have at least some work experience in the relevant industry, otherwise how would they know what they are doing?

[buoyant seal]

Convinience

I was completely disinterested in project because I did not like code quality even one bit

Today I was actually accidentally given tasks to review and improve the code

Scratching the scratch

It makes me actually feel better about the work again and apathy dissapears. Or at least I believe it is dissapearing

Funny, that mistakes are made in the code are just like it was written in the books by McConnel Code complete, or in books of Robert Martin.
Magical numbers which you have no idea what they mean
Regular attributes accidentally have extra behaviour when they are certain constants
Tangled code into a jumpy mess

Kind of questioning yourself... Is no one reading the books? I wonder how much of programmers who work in enterprise, actually cared to read them. I thought all middle level and higher devs are expected to read them with 100% sure

[empty moat]

I see

[near remnant]

Anyone?

[vapid jay]

if i want to get into cyber security, what do i need to know or learn?
I know i need python, but what do i do with it, and what else do i need to know?

[buoyant seal]

seek junior/middle/senior ranked cyber security positions at your local hiring web sites
and pick up the most common/shared things for the ranks.

[delicate bane]

idk too much about cybersec itself, but my cybersec prof said knowing software dev (i.e. python) really well can allow you to become a specialist in cybersec.

heres also a good website https://www.cyberseek.org/pathway.html

@vapid jay im studying for my Security+ exam too, and the content there is good for knowing the fundamentals (also sometimes required for entry-level cybersec jobs like SOC analyst, etc.)

[delicate bane]

curious, have you considered cybersec at all

[gusty chasm]

I can answer that cause I'm ce

But also depends in school I guess

I learned logic gates, basic ee stuff like circuits, arduino, oscilloscope, calc, physics

[vapid jay]

Well I'm 16 rn so I can't find anything about cyber security irl, most my school does is teach for loops in c++,
I'd need to take a beginner course online

[gusty chasm]

Youtube is pretty good

@vapid jay

[vapid jay]

Yeah I was watching a video

I saw there's alot of paths in cyber security but my interest is peaked in programming

[delicate bane]

thats good. that can allow you to become a specialist in the future

[vapid jay]

Oh sweet

im very interested in networking cybersecurity stuff so i guess i can start going slowly

[delicate bane]

hey, thats what my prof specializes in haha

[vapid jay]

its all fun and games untill you debug for 5 hours

[delicate bane]

yeah theres different projects you can do on the cybersec side as well, so you can explore + learn as you go

[delicate bane]

that sounds like normal coding

[vapid jay]

i sure hope im good enough for this
cuz i havent been the most secure person haha

i guess its a start, since im barely 16 i got time to learn till 18

[delicate bane]

yeah youve still got a long way ahead of you, so its better to just explore what you like vs. dont like

if you think you are serious, you can try to work towards a uni degree in CS or if its available, one specializing in cybersecurity

[vapid jay]

oh damn

my mind always told if i dont already have alot of projects id die in uni

[delicate bane]

lol no

[vapid jay]

i think im serious i always wanted to get into networking and stuff but my ex made me believe its stupid and pointless so i started working in web deving, but now that shes gone from my life i started working on getting better at cybersecurity

so im learning python and go, ive heard theyre used, and bash but im using arch, so thatll come naturally

[delicate bane]

[vapid jay]

i think i should take a netowrking course before cyber security things i think, its important to know how ips work

[delicate bane]

i dont have much to say to that except dont always believe others, especially if its not their area of expertise

[delicate bane]

i recommend Kurose's Computer Networking: A Top-Down Approach if you haven't already heard of it

[vapid jay]

oh i havent

[delicate bane]

theres an online syllabus and everything

[vapid jay]

ill look into it

[delicate bane]

http://gaia.cs.umass.edu/kurose_ross/online_lectures.htm

[frosty terrace]

Where is the best place to apply for programming jobs?

[vapid jay]

its getting big

[frosty terrace]

is dice.com reliable?

Indeed and LinkedIn have given terrible results, even for my past work history, always got crappy jobs from there.

[pure raft]

If a school has a direct partnership with a free 4 year institution but only offers cybersecurity instead of straight up comp sci, is that a good move if I’d eventually want to move into some form of ai dev

[supple parrot]

i am currently in 4th year of my b.tech and do not any language what should i learn. i started doing python.

but can anyone expaluin me about scenario around python begineers n indias software industry

https://tenor.com/view/help-wasabi-gif-12718090

[smoky quest]

Can you expand on that?
Indeed and linkedin are kind of the to go place in the USA

[buoyant seal]

as my specialization? definitely no. I learn essential things I have to know, and that's the end of my interests in this field
Once I needed to ensure that my software is good enough to pass PCI DSS a short version requirements, that's the biggest going into security i had.
Even the shortest PCI DSS has 70+ pages of instructions 😱 The full one is more than 300 or 400 pages xD

Well, and it was fun learning encryption during university

Well. I just wish to ensure that at least the most stupid security mistakes aren't made in my software. Though we can wonder, are there not stupid mistakes in security? xD

[frosty terrace]

So I need some help, maybe it's my resume. I have a big history in several different jobs. I worked construction, retail, office jobs, now I'm trying to do programming. Should I leave everything out besides office jobs? For office jobs I was doing pricing/data type stuff with excel.

Also should I create a resume with a bunch of projects I did and put on my github? some guy said to do that and it kinda makes it seem like I have no work history.

[smoky quest]

Somewhere in the middle. It's supposed to sell yourself and give context your yourself

[frosty terrace]

just dont know what I should include

if I include everything, my resume is easily 3 pages

[inner wren]

Hey @vapid jay!

You either uploaded a .txt file or entered a message that was too long. Please use our paste bin instead.

[velvet kite]

!mute 937290330661867580

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until <t:1657654723:f> (59 minutes and 59 seconds).

[analog sun]

!purgeban 937290330661867580 Please respect staff members.

[inner wren]

:ok_hand: applied ban to @inner prawn permanently.

[smoky quest]

It means you need to trim a bit of both as to remain balanced

[frosty terrace]

So office jobs + a few projects? how many projects is a good amount?

should i even explain projects on my resume?

[smoky quest]

2-5 depending on the resume is a good number

[smoky quest]

Indeed! Imagine if you were to review hundred of resumes, not knowing them nor having any context. Just having a title wouldn't be too enticing and making you want to call them back

[gritty rivet]

a few lines, emphasizing what you accomplished and what technologies you used... nobody cares what your app does, they care what skills it demonstrates

[smoky quest]

Also, if you put a link to your github, make sure the repos are nice and tidy as people will look at them as how you would work if hired. That means having a README, license, tests, comments, system design, no profanity, etc.

[dark arrow]

is it common to have two github profiles? one meant for resumes and one for simpler personal projects?

[delicate bane]

i heard SOC 2 compliance is just as bad (or worse)

[smoky quest]

If people care about the random shit you put on your account, you have bigger problems and wouldn't miss much by not going through their interviews

[fleet reef]

no, but it is common to have to have one personal account, and to create a new one for each job

[gritty rivet]

I keep a lot of my projects private and pin the ones I want to highlight. I wouldn't bother with a separate account unless you have active and public projects you really don't want prospective employers to see

[thorn saffron]

yeah i never created the new accounts for jobs

[fleet reef]

I don't know, I think that recruiter was justified in not liking that "totallynotaviriusNITROGENORATER2022nocap!!"

[smoky quest]

Sounds like we can make a case out of any bad or illegal thing.

[mystic nest]

Hey guys, are there jobs postings on this server?

[smoky quest]

nope

[mystic nest]

Right, thanks

[dark arrow]

hmm

[fleet reef]

What do you not want prospective employers to see?

[dark arrow]

nothing its just that none of my projects have tests or ci/cd or readmes longer than 5 lines

[smoky quest]

that's fine as long as you don't point the employers to them.
Most candidates have plenty of tutorial, WIP or half started things.

If you put a link to a repo/project on your resume or pin the project (in the rare occasion where someone may stumble upon it), then the game is on

[frosty terrace]

if I post my resume here with blocked information obviously, could you guys tell me whbat I can do to improve it?

[buoyant seal]

that's the most often thing done here, besides using this channel as flood channel

[inner wren]

Hey @frosty terrace!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[thorn saffron]

Sure, but my response will be based on how I personally hire for my tech company

[frosty terrace]

please be as brutal as you can

[buoyant seal]

It is kind of silly like any novice resumes
But kind of... it just creates an exact more honest picture where you are really

[frosty terrace]

any tips?

[buoyant seal]

I wish to say it is perfect like it is already. As it creates a honest picture of your standing.
You can of course fix things which give away you being a novice, but then it would be not a honest resume

[buoyant seal]

I think if you wish to keep being honest, you should just start intensive self education to catch up with things you aren't knowing

Then u will be able to fix your resume on the way as you fix your knowledge

[buoyant seal]

clarify your career goals, who you want to be?

[frosty terrace]

at this point, i want to take any programming job avaliable... I don't have a degree in computer science, so whatever I can

[buoyant seal]

That's probably the most important thing that still needs to be fixed. You wish to DESIRE who you want to be

[frosty terrace]

I want to be a game dev most importantly, but it seems impossible

[near ocean]

One page CV
title/intro, work experience, education, hobby projects
Skills and tech used could be much smaller, the take so much space atm

[buoyant seal]

https://c.tenor.com/dd-y_9vIzXEAAAAd/what-is-it-you-desire-tom-ellis.gif

Do you wish to be in Web Development, Or Desktop Development, Or Mobile Development, Or Embedded Development? Or may be Data Science or something else

[frosty terrace]

mobile

[buoyant seal]

That's fine. Change your resume that you wish being Mobile Developer then. Specify Android or IOS though. As it involves learning different tech stack. Java/Kotlin? or Swift accordingly

[frosty terrace]

should i have a summary at all?

[near ocean]

Not a summary, an objective statement at the top is fine

[buoyant seal]

https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/blob/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/c4442e2124efcb6b5f3041703a54ac28f01ec520/swe_backend.drawio.svg

I made a roadmap for backend developers, but the main feature of my map that it mentions generic Software Engineering skills as well.
I recommend learning Green Squares from the map
Starting probably from Unit Testing at your current standing

And get to learn syntax of mobile development languages. That's Java or kotlin. Find advice which language you should go for. Check available job vanacies for those two languages, which one is having more job vanacies in your local area

Be sure, who you want to be in 5 years xD

[frosty terrace]

is the way I prsented my technical skills bad?

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. Yes it has things that clearly give away you being novice. But I think it is sort of fine as it is honest resume

[near ocean]

Yes, takes way too much vertical space, theres so much white space on the right

[frosty terrace]

so break it into left and right parts?

[smoky quest]

• Your summary claims to be experienced. But you don't have years of experience in a dev job
• Your technical skills take too much space. The order is also weird. Start with the most important ones (ex: unity is not useful for every non-gamedev role)
• You don't have a CS degree, so your projects will matter more than usual. So have some mobile app done with standard mobile tools (kotlin, swift, flutter, react native, etc.). But your current projects do seem interesting
• Make it one page

[near ocean]

The way i present them is a single single listing all of the major tech I've used, pipe separated

[smoky quest]

avoid multi-column formats. They don't get parse well by ATSes

[frosty terrace]

so should i just bullet point all my skills and not categorize them?

[buoyant seal]

Well. If we add to it.

• Resume mentions not important stuff like Adobe Photoshop, Microsoft Visual Studio, basically stuff that is not important to be mentioned in resume usually
• You mention your skiils as intermediate in Django / Unity, and even advanced in CSS/SASS, but when we look at your job experience, we see zero their usage in job experience, therefore we clearly see that you can't possess advanced skills, or even intermediate by the commercial experience standards. Though it is cool that they were used in pet projects

The lack of any... generic software engineering skills/instruments adds to the picture

[smoky quest]

you could have a comma separated list for each category

[frosty terrace]

is having "advanced" ect ect, worth writing for each skill?

[smoky quest]

I don't see any experience that would enable you to claim to be advanced in anything

right now, you fall in the entry level category

[frosty terrace]

alright ill try to reduce it a bit and make some changes

[buoyant seal]

We can see at resume entry fourteen years of mentioned experience in pricing and bla bla bla, but you did not add any job experience that would clarify what were those 14 years.

[frosty terrace]

i have many years in many other industries... so i figured not to include them, otherwis e the resume will only get larger

[smoky quest]

you could have an aggregated entry with a list of interesting points

[buoyant seal]

If this expereience is important towards your resume, you go for Data Scientist or something... you should add at least as small as "Company name, from which time to which time, job rank name". Or even more aggregated than that. Like Worked as job namefrom time to time in [companies list]

[frosty terrace]

none of my previous jobs relate to my office jobs, they were basically like sales, or construction, or retail

[buoyant seal]

Those few lines could be the biggest selling point of your resume to be honest, considering your almost zero knowledge in SWE

[buoyant seal]

They give you Domain Knowledge about different subjects. They will heavily increase that you would be taken into companies who share same domain knowledge

[frosty terrace]

but like before... if I include them all, then my pages will go beyond 3

[thorn saffron]

ur technical skills section takes up way too much space, no reason to have that be almost the entire first page

and I brush over technical skills, I care more about experience, papers, and projects. Anyone can say they know a language, I rather see the stack being used than double space bullet points for them

[buoyant seal]

as i said
Mention as short as one line:
Job rank name, company name, years in it

Or aggragate into one line that is having
Worked as job rank name, years in as job name, list of companies during which you were in same role

it should combine everything into less than 5 or at least 10 lines

[thorn saffron]

No? You shouldn't say "Software Engineer" and then the companies under it. You do each experience separately

[buoyant seal]

he is having 14 years of experience. And considering that he is having already overbloated resume, he needs everything he can in order to shorten it a little.
Though I agree, that it would be highly preffereably to keep jobs as not agregated.
But the point is standing that his other jobs aren't directly related to SWE, therefore they can be aggregated

[thorn saffron]

Yes, experience is not what needs to be shortened though and this formatting is not accepted. There is so much bloat in other areas, when I am hiring as I said I am really only looking at experience and projects

[frosty terrace]

this was my original resume

[buoyant seal]

🤔 for a considerable time I was thinking working in oursourcing company was downside.
Now i feel like working in it is a plus, because i can transition more easily between projects/roles

therefore I will get quite more diversed experience in one job without changing it xD
it will allow me to have diversed commercial experience in different subjects

[thorn saffron]

This is better than what you more recently sent. Skills and such are dynamic, you include different ones based on the job description.

but like innovative doesn't make sense, not really something to put there

show your personality in the call, this is just supposed to get you to that point

[frosty terrace]

so keep my original, add project, add skills from previous?

[brave bridge]

imo your resume has way too much white space

[thorn saffron]

Also, if you can, add statistics to your experience regarding how your work positively benefitted the company.

For skills, keep it the same format as previous, though as I said, use different skills for different roles you're applying to

Remember, most HR people going through these applications don't have an advanced technical background. With skills, they are just seeing if you have a background in whatever stack they use

[brave bridge]

also HR people should be seen as generally evil.

[thorn saffron]

no they are j ppl you can confuse really easily

[frosty terrace]

would this be better instead of bullets?

Programming: Python, C#, LUA

[thorn saffron]

Some people do it like that where they show
Languages: Python blah blah blah,
Frameworks: flask, pandas ....
Other: excel, data wrangling, data augmentation yada yada yada

[thorn saffron]

it shouldn't be years in it but start data-end date also

[buoyant seal]

okay. lets get it precise then

for job in previous_jobs:
  print(f"{job.rank_name}, {job.company_name}, from {job.datetime_start} to {job.datetime_end}")

[frosty terrace]

where does html fit... in other? lol

[delicate bane]

ehh i feel like you also have to consider the norms for US resumes are different for other countries, so keep that in mind

[true harness]

languages?

[frosty terrace]

html is a language?

[delicate bane]

so ideally you want to see how resumes are done in your country as well

[true harness]

yeah?

[frosty terrace]

a lot of people told me it wasnt

[thorn saffron]

the reason you do this as that is how employers validate your term at the company

[thorn saffron]

haters

[true harness]

datetime is a little too precise lol, just month and year for start and end

[buoyant seal]

if to be precise, Html is a Markdown(hypertext markup whatever) language, but still language. It is just not a programming language.

like CSS, is technically not a programming language too, but cascasing style something thingy. Though with SCSS i think it is quite close to be a full language.

JS is a real programming language that goes with them

together it is all united under "Frontend"

through without JS, it is more like just Web Layout thing

[frosty terrace]

should I mention github, pycharm, or microsoft virtual studio?

[graceful mason]

Lua isn't an acronym

[buoyant seal]

It would be nice if you learned and mentioned Git. (as in Git CLI)

I would not mentioned usually IDEs, but considering your entry... skill set, perhaps it is necessary to mentioned IDEs I think.

Github is usually not mentioned because... 🤔 it is not a technology exactly.. it is.. but not exactly

Git is technology. Github Actions is a technology. Github is kind of project management system and I guess there is little thing to know.. It is just so little that no point to mention

[near ocean]

for other languages like java, c#, cpp knowing how to use VS or Rider or eclipse or whatever might be worth mentioning, but not for python

[buoyant seal]

he mentions PyCharm

more than enough xD Hell I still have no idea how to use it. Because I sort of hate it. I think VSCode is way better due to being lightweight

Vscode allows me to run 4-6 instances of it without a problem

[frosty terrace]

better?

it's 2 pages

[thorn saffron]

yes

[near ocean]

you have Technical Skills duplicated as a title, the second one should be Professional Experience

[frosty terrace]

thanks fixed

[near ocean]

Also you should move your Education section above Certificates, certifications dont matter one bit for python jobs if you have education

[true harness]

are you in the US? resumes should be 1 page

[frosty terrace]

I am in US, but there is no way I can make this into one page

[true harness]

cut stuff

[thorn saffron]

No, I receive resume's sometimes 5 pages, you just want it to be as short as possible

if there's that much info tho leave it

[near ocean]

sure you can, cut out some whitespace in your header, put your skills and tech on a single line, remove Certs entirely, cut down Education to your BSc, remove langs

your summary is also too long

[true harness]

probably use bullet points on your projects, i wouldn't want to read a whole paragraph per project

[near ocean]

your objective statement should be short, just state where you are right now and what kind of roles youre looking for
mine is

Early career software engineer with experience in developing internal tools, looking for a Junior Software
Engineering role. Strong with Python3 and comfortable with JavaScript on Windows and Linux. Full settled status.

[frosty terrace]

Ok thanks for all the help

[stone nymph]

get rid of summary, move education to the top esp if you're still in school. get rid of high school, it's implied you already completed it if you're in college. Get rid of certifications, it doesn't matter if you're already in college+ you already put it under technical skills. make your linked+portfolio in one line to bring it down to 1 page. Get rid of languages, noone really cares about that

[near ocean]

experience is much more important than education

[buoyant seal]

Hey
Natural Languages are extremely important. They expose u to different job markets

[rigid valley]

Any tips for me. I'm starting in programming and just enrolled in Computer Science. Could you give me what to expect and what to master. I'm planning to be Data scientist to machine learning engineer in future.

[rapid depot]

Hey, i found this AI roadmap sometime ago. Not sure if it would help, but check it out.
https://i.am.ai/roadmap/#note

[rigid valley]

Wow thats a lot of information.

[rapid depot]

And also this video seems to be favored by the viewers.
https://youtu.be/pHiMN_gy9mk

I have no expertise of machine learning or AI, i'm just a beginner, but i hope that information could help you.

[frosty terrace]

what's the difference between a data scientists and data anaylst?

[frosty terrace]

so I made a game mod before that had thousands of downloads, is that good to mention?

[gritty rivet]

There can be some overlap (titles are often fuzzy and vary between companies) but a data scientist generally has far more advanced skills and higher pay

[frosty terrace]

I've gotten calls for data analyst jobs, because I'm a pricing analyst... but I learned that it involves presentations, not a fan of, is a data scientists a better alternative?

[graceful mason]

All software jobs, especially data related jobs, will involve you doing presentations.

[frosty terrace]

like meeting type?

[smoky quest]

that's part of growing your influence

You may be the best in the universe, but if no one knows about it, you ain't gonna be promoted

meetings/presentations do not necessarily mean like the boring business meetings you see on tv. That can be tech talks, that can be presenting solutions, that can be giving an overview of the product/arch, etc.

Hi and welcome!
This has nothing to do with #career-advice. You would most likely post it somewhere else

[sudden gull]

Oops sorry mate

[frosty terrace]

crap i should of took those jobs then

if i do data analyst, would it be easy to move to other areas in programming? like games, web apps, ect?

[summer roost]

it would be harder than moving between other types of development.

the big reason it's harder to move from a data analyst job into something like game dev or web dev is that data analysts don't ship a product or deploy things to production, so there's a big set of skills that most other types of software engineers develop, but data analysts don't.

monitoring, telemetry, automated testing, CI, CD, containerization - data analysts aren't likely to touch any of that stuff, and nearly every type of software engineer would.

[limpid marlin]

I'm interested in having a career in Data Science and Machine Learning. Any tips ?
I've learnt Python basics and am a intermediate type in python.
I'll be graduating in 2023 with Bachelor Degree in Computer Science with Specialization in Cyber Security
Do projects play a role in career making and can I get into the field even if I don't have any projects
I'm not saying I don't wanna make projects but currently my project count is 0.

[summer roost]

you'll be competing for positions with other graduates who have machine learning projects, or whose college curriculum included a specialization in machine learning.

you may be able to outcompete them anyway, but they'll have a head start.

[frosty terrace]

Got it down to two pages with all your feedback. Also add blue color for header. Sorry if I keep bugging you guys, you've been very helpful. Let me know if there is anything else you recommend.

Honestly looking at it myself compared to what it was, looks definitely 10x better, so I really appreciate it

[true harness]

why is there so much white space on the header?

[frosty terrace]

honestly i dont even know

gotta figure out how to remove it

[peak halo]

why is it two pages? at least in the US, only late career people should be going over one page.

[frosty terrace]

i'd say im late career?

I donno keep hearing back and forth of adding old jobs, and leaving it out

[peak halo]

if you entered industry 11 years ago, I'm probably not the one to tell you what these words mean, but I would peg that as mid career, if you go by 35-or-so years.

[frosty terrace]

im in my 30s

[peak halo]

I'll be in my 30s soon.
where did the years go?

[frosty terrace]

So should I leave out some jobs? if so, what would you recommend?>

[peak halo]

I'm very much an early career person, so I'm more apt to advice university students. but I myself have been advised (by the career advisor at my university) that only late career people should go over one page, and that if you're a mid-career person, you should tailor your resume to include the most relevant experience that will fit in one page.

(and if you're a university student, you're probably going to struggle to fill one page no matter what. I know I did.)

[frosty terrace]

in all honesty, I could add way more job experiences that I left off, because they're many years back

Should I remove Electronics ASsociate?

And 3rd party seller?

[ivory sluice]

are the margins narrower on page 2 or is that just your crop for the screenshots? this also looks like fairly large font and wide margins, though idk that you necessarily need to aim for 1 page.

[summer roost]

I doubt that 4 bullet points about being a 3rd party seller on Amazon is likely to be helpful to you in landing a software development job. It's fine to only include your most recent jobs, but if you do include more, I wouldn't give them as much real estate as your more recent and more relevant jobs.

[true harness]

the "Technical Skills" section has a huge amount of whitespace

[frosty terrace]

font is 10, it's probably all larger because they're pictures

I'm afraid if I don't add enough work experience that it will look like I never had a job lol

I was thinking about just keeping the first two, since I at least used excel, data, and VBA

[ivory sluice]

what kinds of jobs are you applying for? bc i agree with godly idk that such a descriptive section on being a third party amazon seller would be of much interest

[frosty terrace]

removed the whitespace

Honestly anything at this point, probably data analyst though, since I am already a pricing analyst

and it's the only calls I've gotten

[ivory sluice]

can projects be listed first/prior to work experience or is that a no-no? (i'm not in software)

[frosty terrace]

I want to be a game dev, but everyone keeps saying that's not really possible

[summer roost]

it would be unusual

[frosty terrace]

but as of now I just want more professional experience with programming, because I actually enjoy it and want to be better at it, I keep doing leetcode to improve my skills

was also told to remove certifcations, i assume that was a good idea?

[true harness]

yes, your BS is certification enough

[ivory sluice]

i have some feedback for the experience bullet points but probably won't be of much help on my phone. i think everything could be described in quantifiable measurements (large, but how large? frequently, but how frequently?). and the more you can highlight the positive impact your work produced, the better, again using quantifiable measurements

you also need to capitalize proper nouns such as Excel and Google Drive, and not capitalize words like "social media"

[frosty terrace]

Like...

• Programmed excel sheets using VBA to extract required information from thousands of data sets.
• Weekly assisted the international pricing department.

[summer roost]

what were the certificates in?

[frosty terrace]

sololearn and mimo... nothing special

[ivory sluice]

thousands of data sets or large data sets of thousands of records? your screenshot and newly proposed bullet point don't quite match up

[frosty terrace]

• Programmed Excel sheets using VBA to extract information from large data sets of thousands of records.

[ivory sluice]

• Eliminated 1 hour daily of administrative overhead by programmatically automating pricing reports from multiple 10,000 row data sets with VBA Excel workbooks.

that's the kind of bullet point that leaves an impression. obviously edit to actually correctly reflect what it is you do and the outcome your work actually has

[frosty terrace]

thanks, should I also remove electronics associate?

[ivory sluice]

i'm a little less certain on these other questions of yours, but if you want my 2 cents, leave those kinds of jobs as 1 liners

i would prioritize really showing off what you've done in more recent jobs that would be relevant to a hiring manager that's looking to fill a position you want to move towards

[ivory sluice]

it's going to be a decent amount of work for you to produce even 5-10 of these kinds of descriptions

i only wrote that one as quickly as i did because i have done similar kinds of work

[frosty terrace]

honestly my excel projects eliminated like 5 hours of overhead lol

[ivory sluice]

total? or daily

[frosty terrace]

daily... all these jobs I worked for, they are so old school, like they use paperwork and none are computer savy... I was able to do my job in 1 hour, which took them the entire week to do

[ivory sluice]

yeah i come from a similar environment. but i wonder if you should write "reduced daily overhead by 5 hours" bc it sounds like such a stretch for a company in 2022

i immediately doubted it lol

[frosty terrace]

yeah thats why I feel the truth isn't always the best

[ivory sluice]

if you mention that you're eliminating manual paper and pencil workflows i'd believe it

[ivory sluice]

but bear in mind your resume just doesn't have enough oomph at the moment, at all

[peak halo]

@inland locust your message was off-topic. Please adhere strictly to channel topics.

[frosty terrace]

yeah ill try to do that, but I'm afraid of adding too many words because it takes up another line of space

should i reduce it to 3 bullets?

[ivory sluice]

id focus on the actual content first. formatting is really trivial afterwards

if you can have 3 amazing bullet points you don't need 4.

you should be more afraid of people getting sleepy and their eyes glazing over when reading your resume than the number of lines it has

you can always go 9pt, reduce the line spacing, and reduce the margins

i don't think you need to go to 9pt though

[frosty terrace]

• Used Excel VBA to extract information from large data sets with thousands of records which reduced three hours of daily overhead for both the domestic and international department.

[stone nymph]

remove older experience

[frosty terrace]

up to what point?

[stone nymph]

10+ year ago ones

[ivory sluice]

yeah this is better. keep pushing on improving your other descriptions and continue to ask for feedback. another round or 2 should be good

[stone nymph]

also i'd get rid of some projects

nft and stock ones is a red flag to some hiring managers

[frosty terrace]

really? thought those would actually be the good ones

[stone nymph]

its nearly impossible to track the stock market or even make attempt to, plenty of people tried

[frosty terrace]

my program works, it pulls the current price of a stock on google

actually planning on maybe using this to find the weather for a mobile app i made

[stone nymph]

its someone anyone can do, it doesn't really look impressive. also its better to just have less projects so you can talk in more depth during interviews

can get rid of 3rd party seller and electronic associate. a lot of people care more about recent experience and you still want to bring it down to 1 page (its still pretty messy to read)

can also get rid of associates, it's also implied that you have one based on bachelors, thats like 2-3lines alone

[frosty terrace]

I have a project on my github that has solutions for problems for sololearn. Each file is a separate programming concept, worth adding here or no?

[stone nymph]

trim down your resume before adding more stuff. Honestly, experience matters more than projects. its fine to add like 1-2 projects, but 5 is overkill

[frosty terrace]

alright, thanks for the feedback

[agile fog]

what would you suggest to a undergrade student who has just completed 3rd semester (yes im talking about myself)

[stone nymph]

learn watever u like+research what you need, just make sure you get an internship/work experience somehow

[drifting violet]

Which country u guys recommend best for starting a career in programming unfortunately technology field in my country isn't that expanded they use wordpress to build up official gov websites still

In europe i mean

[dense mesa]

UK, France, Germany, Estonia, Finland

[drifting violet]

Thank you

[agile fog]

thanks and yeah getting first internship is hard part ( + i need to work on my resume i dont have exiting projects)

[near remnant]

Just had a 15 minute call after my final interview. Asked me about my salary expectations and when could I start, etc. Also, bought me a new laptop for work lmao..nice I guess. One last thing I have to wait, which is the CEO approval. Hopefully the CEO won't say "hell nah, fk this guy"

[peak halo]

are you sure "they bought you a laptop" is the right way to frame it? because it's normal for companies to have you do work for them on company devices. that they own.

[near remnant]

Yeah, they had laptops but they didn't want to give me the old ones, so they just going to buy a new one for me. Sorry if it was not clear at first. Its a really small company tho.

[random yoke]

Hello everyone

First of all thank you for creating a space that allows everyone to help each other.
So here I am 27 years old, I resigned from my job about a week ago.
I've always wanted to dive into the world of development and I'm going to spend the next 6 months tryinghard the python language.

I have absolutely no background in programming and if I chose python it is because according to what I understood, it is versatile and has a simple syntax.

I have already started reading the python sheets that I found on the official website, I also watched a relatively complete video on YT.
I get excited in the morning to start the day and learn.
Motivation is not my problem.

I will say that my biggest problem is that I need to be framed and structured.
I intend to pay for training but I would really like to start and have the basics with the free content available on the web, especially since this content looks complete !

Hence my presence here, I just want to ask you if you have any advice for me regarding the website on which I can find a learning methodology that would really guide me from beginner to intermediate ?

Best regards 🙂

[peak halo]

we have a resources page on our website. take a look at that, and let us know if you're not finding something that suits you

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[random yoke]

Thank you 🙂

[near remnant]

@peak halo does this change your opinion?

[obtuse talon]

first man
experience matters
you first you have to live with python people who are like good in them

second
this website can give a certficate
https://www.freecodecamp.org/

[true harness]

i think his point was to clarify if it really was your laptop, or the company's

[near remnant]

Oh sure, I meant a new laptop for me to use haha

[frosty terrace]

I'm back! Did a few changes, very close to 1 page.

Also should I reflect everything on my resume to my indeed and linkedin too? like removing old work, ect?

[dense mesa]

Move the contact info so you can fit it into one page

[frosty terrace]

to the right of tech skills? or would that look bad

[ivory sluice]

no it could all be 1 line

[true harness]

is your email address there? might be worth adding

[frosty terrace]

yes all top right, but blanked

[vagrant hull]

A

[ivory sluice]

how wide are your page margins? i wouldn't go wider than 0.75"
also you have a lot of padding in between the company name location and 1st bullet point for each job

[frosty terrace]

they're 1"

[vagrant hull]

What's u guis

What's going on

[frosty terrace]

instead of writing "cell" or "email" would it be good to use an icon?

[ripe meadow]

Guys

Woudl it be easy to transfer from Data Science to Software Engineer ?

[frosty terrace]

Got it done to one page!

also already moved the dates to the right more, think it mesed up after i changed margin

is it necessary to have the year I graduated?

[gritty rivet]

I would include it as this is standard practice, but maybe ok to leave out if you feel you have a good reason to

[frosty terrace]

Appreciate all your guy's help, one last question... do i reflect my resume's work history to my linkedin and indeed? Cause I removed old ones

[azure lynx]

Hey are there any programmers currently in Uni, preferably in Canada I have an idea and need support

[peak halo]

Perhaps you could be more specific? Suppose there is a student from Canada who reads your message, what do you want to tell them?

[frosty terrace]

judged based on my resume, what you guys recommend my minimum wage be?

right now I'm wanting to range $65,000 - $85,000, is that too much or too little?

[stone nymph]

Heavily location dependent and how much experience for the position you are applying for

[near ocean]

also company dependent, you could be doing the exact same thing in company A and Google, but Google would probably pay way more

[stiff swift]

any idea where i can learn python for free online?

[vapid jay]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vapid jay]

There are many resources online

I suggest to watch freecodecamp channel on youtube... They have very good tutorials on many technologies, languages, etc... Their python tutorial is very good... So do check it out

[stiff swift]

thankuu

[fiery rose]

Hey everyone im a mobile dev , wants to learn MLops . Any road map .

[ivory sluice]

that looks better, make sure your date ranges are aligned correctly to your new right margin

[elfin knot]

Hey, my goal is to do an PECP Certificate - but I'm kinda confused which I should do / buy. Can anyone pls explain me the differences?

[dense mesa]

None are worth it

[elfin knot]

u sure?

[smoky quest]

what's your goal with these certs?

[elfin knot]

to write them in my cv or smth XD

[smoky quest]

yeah won't really matter then

[elfin knot]

but where are the differences between those versions?

do i need an practical exam or is this just an addon

[smoky quest]

I have no idea as I haven't gone through them. Their support people would probably be able to answer that

but it looks like it comes down to the ability to retake it or to take a practice exam

[elfin knot]

i will ask the support. Thx

[frosty terrace]

what is your guy's take on cover letters? pointless?

[honest pivot]

Depends a lot on context. Don't write generic ones, those are definitely pointless

[delicate bane]

i heard it depends on the company/industry as well

[lone forum]

anyone there??

[static saffron]

I'm being drafted in a year, dunno where but a questionnaire asked if i could code in any language, well i was wondering if anyone knows anything about coding and development within military units [Im Israeli by the way so.. any specific input would be great xC]

[smoky quest]

I know a few folks who went through it and as in any situation, it depends. Not all the people do the same thing and work on the same outcome.
So my recommendation would be to pick up a language and get started. Once you know a language picking another one is much easier and won't be a problem

[static saffron]

not relevant to the situation as I've been working with multiple languages for years now, and that wasn't the question but thanks!

[smoky quest]

So what was your question besides asking if someone knew anything about the coding and development within military units?

[static saffron]

I was asking what would one be doing, or what it would look like, if i wasnt clear thats on me!

[vapid jay]

Wouldn't information of this be restricted?

[smoky quest]

depends on the unit

[static saffron]

0 idea im asking

[native narwhal]

I've picked a language and its python, but to work with it you also need to know a lot of other stuff for example you need to know databases, for datascience you need to know other stuff
so what is the career where you mostly work with writing python code and not other stuff?

[smoky quest]

not necessarily. You may not know the details, but the gist/overall purpose can be

[vapid jay]

Because even for basic compulsory military service you're not supposed to share anything about it. In my experience.

[smoky quest]

Languages are tools, not end in themselves.
They also don't work in isolation as they solve problems. So to that end, you won't find many jobs that fulfill that criteria (see https://roadmap.sh/ for instance)

[vapid jay]

And the country in question is one that is basically at a state of war with all of its neighbors.

[smoky quest]

they still need to recruit and people still need to find jobs after the army and put stuff on their resume.
So you won't know the specific details, but they will definitely talk about whether they were doing some network monitoring or building website or other activity

[native narwhal]

great thanks, but in your opinion which career has less of the other stuff and mostly Python code?

[smoky quest]

I would flip the problem around and ask why don't you want to have some other stuff?
What you are asking will limit you to junior jobs for your career

[native narwhal]

some people like me are better off with limiting themselves to achieve something because if I go for the route where I learn a lot of things I will fail.

[delicate bane]

if even, its too competitive nowadays entry-level-wise to only be knowing python and little else

imo

[native narwhal]

so again please tell me which career with python has mostly Python code and less other stuff

[smoky quest]

there is none as far as I know

[native narwhal]

so what is my 2nd best choice other than only python...

[smoky quest]

you could learn javascript/react

[native narwhal]

ooooooooooo noooooooo

[smoky quest]

no pain no gain

[delicate bane]

react is cool. would recommend

[native narwhal]

nope I want as less as possbile to look at how a webpage looks and its components in the frontend (also with react native and apps) dont want that

I want to write python code to support that though

[delicate bane]

i dont see a world where you do that backend support without learning databases

[native narwhal]

god dammit okay I'll do it then

[smoky quest]

it will be fun and you can ask questions on discord

[native narwhal]

but I feel bad cuz people that do those jobs will teach me then I will take their jobs 😄

[smoky quest]

I would rather see it as people being able to do a lot more rather than trying to reduce headcount

[native narwhal]

Maybe now jobs aren't scarce but teaching many people will do that
I come from a place where I digitize embroidery for machines and If I teach someone that job mine is gone

[gritty rivet]

You don't need to be a SQL expert or anything but if you've never interacted with databases, you definitely should.

[native narwhal]

I've learned my job on the job and with coding you first need to learn a lot of things then get internship it sux a lot

I am a perfect learner if I have people around me I never even ask twice

[gritty rivet]

If you haven't yet, check out the backend and the Python routes at roadmap.sh It goes a lot further then the bare minimum that you need to know, but gives you ideas of skills worth working on

[gritty rivet]

I did the part-time backend bootcamp with Nucamp and got a decent job immediately, no need for an internship. It's not always that easy but if you build a decent portfolio, network and apply like crazy you can find a break

[native narwhal]

Yes I also figured that I might need more time spent asking people and local small companies to take me in I don't need pay ffs lol but they don't need a complete noob either so its a tradeoff ;p

[gritty rivet]

It helps to focus on projects you want to build out of your own interests. That's definitely part of how I've stayed motivated and kept learning.

[warm drum]

Anything you guys wish you knew before you started coding?

[dense mesa]

There are some select companies who only use Python as a strategy decision btw

[dense mesa]

Write code, don't just watch tutorials

[shadow moss]

Pretty rare I imagine.

Most companies mainstream on .Net, Java, Go or JS/TS

[dense mesa]

Indeed, luckily I'm going to one

[warm drum]

thanks

[shadow moss]

Sure but making career of Python as SWE is hard because you have to worry about next job as well.

[dense mesa]

True

[smoky quest]

making your career on a single language will be hard regardless

[stoic drum]

Hello, I hope all is well with everyone. Im transitioning to IT from teaching. And I’m noticing a slight trend and want to confirm. Is it normal for jobs to offer a contracted role prior to full time hire?

[dense mesa]

Depends on the country and level of experience, but for example, in the UK it wouldn't be common for new graduates

[native narwhal]

What is a Senior Python Software engineer job that they can make $500k a year according to my google research
which doesn't say what their day job actually looks like

Software Engineer can mean literally multiple tihngs

[shadow moss]

You are more likely to be able to with something like Java/C#/Javascript then something like Python

most likely you will end up with multiple languages in your career but it's possible to have a career primarily using a single language

[stoic drum]

Thank you! Do you all have any suggestions as to what types of projects my portfolio should consist of?

[shadow moss]

That's ultra rare, probably less then .001% of python jobs.

[native narwhal]

I am still doing research I think those jobs are at Google and are network testing jobs and you have to have all the cybersec certs too

so python there is just a small tool in the toolbox but yeah the salaries are actually even getting to $800k total compensation per year

and not even for principal level cuz those people that work on the server reliability and security can cost the company BILLIONS if they mess up

But I have another question now:
Which might be harder to work as

• Data Engineer
• Data Analyst
  please say analyst so I can go back to learning python/sql since I don't wanna hard job

[polar forge]

Eveything all at once.

Learning never stops so you got to learn your languages.

[native narwhal]

delete this

[polar forge]

wut

Are you a graduate or still in school?

[shadow moss]

What jobs are giving 800k total compensation?

[native narwhal]

Google pays that to network and secirty pros

[shadow moss]

like link to recruiting

[polar forge]

Any job is going to be hard. No use in looking for the easiest job.

[native narwhal]

so google it i lost it

[polar forge]

Fresh grads don't get 800k right out of grad.

[shadow moss]

people with 30 years experience don't make 800k

[polar forge]

Pretty sure most people don't anyways.

[shadow moss]

Like Guido might be making that at Microsoft but no one else is

[polar forge]

100k's a possibility but 800k is hard.

100k is typical fresh CS grad pay.

[shadow moss]

800k is hard period. Most people cap out around 175-300k range

remember, a ton of people get hired at FAANG with their eye watering salaries, few make it long enough to see the crazy salaries

[peak halo]

salaries that are eye-watering because they're disappointingly low?

[shadow moss]

nah, 150k is alot for starting, if you can make Middle Developer tier, it goes up to 200-250k

esp when compared to other companies and jobs, your business degree people have no hope of starting at 150k outside ivy league graduates

[gritty rivet]

Decide what jobs you're looking to apply to and what skills you need to demonstrate. Your portfolio should be designed to demonstrate those skills

[smoky quest]

mobile, backend, frontend, etc.

[smoky quest]

lots more jobs than one may think.
Most of the chunk comes from stock/options (with the risks that come with it)

[shadow moss]

Levels.fyi says your nuts. Like top software pay bands which is >.1% of devs.

[smoky quest]

I am nuts. What else is new

You also have to tailor to the location. Most of these salaries won't happen in Kansas but in the Bay Area in the US.

And you will see it comes more frequently than just Guido

[shadow moss]

Barely. It’s still going to be top .01% of developers if that.

[smoky quest]

Sure, over the world that is even definitely less than that. We can also slice and dice the numbers and statistics in many other ways.
That doesn't change the fact that there are lots more people making that than one may think

[shadow moss]

Yea, I don't think it's just Guido. Linus Torvalds apparently gets 10 million a year. People making 800k+ are going to be extremely distinguished fellows with massive list of accomplishments.

so again .01%

[smoky quest]

the bar is not that high in the bay area. If you are senior enough or lucky in a startup, that's not uncommon

[shadow moss]

Senior do not make 800k, bay area or not. Levels.fyi has that data and at Amazon, that's Principal Senior SDE. Asked a friend at Amazon and he says Principal Senior SDEs are Team Leads/Designers of Massive Systems. Like his group at AWS has one and he has never talked to him directly, only seen him speak in meetings twice and give two presentations.

[smoky quest]

I don't think this discussion is being productive or going anywhere. This is becoming about statements and opinions and that's pretty much about it.
So I appreciate the effort but I think that will be it for me.
Thanks!

[shadow moss]

BTW, Levels.fyi has 8 entries for Principal Senior SDEs. Next level down of Senior SDE has over 1000+ data points so yea, they are ultra rare

[shadow moss]

Why? Arguing against data sucks?

[smoky quest]

You are proving my point.

[shadow moss]

No I'm not. You claim it's easy bar to cross. I still stand by my point. They are less then .01%. BTW, according to US BLS, there is 1847900 software developers in the US. .01% would be 18479. That sounds about right for number of software devs making 800k+

Every time you see compensation estimates for 800k+ in levels, their datapoints are pretty scarce. Like less then 100

[pastel thunder]

what should i call a phd student as a bachelors student?

[shadow moss]

their name and title if proper

[true harness]

+/- honorifics if proper

[pastel thunder]

i dont know but almost sound disrespectful to call even a masters student by their name

maybe its all in my head

[smoky quest]

that's the norm though

[dense mesa]

From what I remember you're in India, so it may be different there. In the UK I'd use whatever they sign emails with, and if you don't have an email response from them, Mr/Ms should be fine

If they don't have the PhD yet then there's not much else I think

[native narwhal]

can I be a Python backend web developer without knowing any JS

[smoky quest]

definitely

You can be a backend developer without knowing any frontend technology.
However, knowing how your stuff will be used and the pain points could be a plus

[native narwhal]

I finished 2 courses in HTML/CSS but when It came to JS and React I didn't like it, although I finished maybe 20% of it so I know the syntax and some other concepts I just don't wanna really work with JS 😦

[smoky quest]

yeah that's fine

[native narwhal]

I also learned Python syntax so now it has come a time for me to focus down on a path, a path I would love because to do this job for a long time I have to like it

I am making a list of topics I have to learn In order to be good at this in the future and I have already covered some of it

I learned Linux basics for 1 whole month and also Networking

a lot of networking dammit I even learned subnetting which I hated but I learned it it was so f hard

I really hope all this laughs and tears will bring me to a job point at one day

[ebon falcon]

Does anyone here have any advice for actually finding a job? I have been coding for about 6 months now and finished my first boot camp not too long ago but Im finding it hard to actually secure a job let alone an interview. Ive been applying and messaging recruiters on linkedin. I have my linked in setup and as professional as possible and have two full stack projects under my belt but I feel completely lost on what I need to do to actually get a job. Ive done some research and found that some people suggest recruiting firms but I dont know how to go about that because I assume they all cost money and since I kind of dont have a job thats not something I can really do lmao. Does anyone have any advice?

[smoky quest]

it's like a pipeline: application -> first pass/call -> interviews -> hire.
And as such, you can troubleshoot and optimize it.
So where do you think it's failing? Do you get calls back?

[ebon falcon]

I have gotten a few calls but none of them had lead to anything. A lot of the places that have called me have told me that they need someone with multiple years under their belts but when talking to some of the alumni from my bootcamp, they never coded before in their lives before they took the course and landed jobs that were just as difficult if not more

[smoky quest]

what does your resume look like?

(feel free to anonymize it and post it here)

[ebon falcon]

would it be okay to dm it to you?

actually ill just send it here and anonymize it

[native narwhal]

I can tell you about how I got my embroidery digitization job but I am not a hired in IT yet sorry.
So it was 2 months of me going to this companies OFFLINE and talking to people at front desk and sometimes I'd meet with managers owners of this textile factories etc only to find out they outsource etc. But I spent 5 months in academy for the software we worked on so I kept going around even to other cities and talking to people that I find present at the location.
I got a data clerk job now that I found online again by talking to people online not by sending any projects or CV or anything. But that is me.

[inner wren]

Hey @ebon falcon!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[true harness]

just take a screenshot of it

[ebon falcon]

kk

It continues with job experience but its mainly just the same

[smoky quest]

your resume should fit on one page.
But besides that, as a python engineer, you only have your last project as a sales point and it doesn't sound very strong. That probably play against you

If your github repo is a bit messy, that could be a turn off too

[ebon falcon]

I just realized I had the languages flipped

[smoky quest]

as a reader without context, your 2 projects sound like variations of (todo) lists. Hiring someone just based on that would be a huge risk and there are plenty of other candidates with more advanced projects

[ebon falcon]

yeah thats true, I wanted to make that second project much more advanced but i didnt have time to do so with the time I had to complete the project. I am currently working on it to this day to impliment the steam api to make it much more fleshed out. What other types of projects do you think I should work on?

Like what are some you made if I may ask

[smoky quest]

You could look at some skills on https://roadmap.sh/backend and find some things you are passionate about where you could demonstrate these skills.
Some of the areas:

• Craftmanship (tests, comments, ci/cd, etc.)
• Async processing with queues/topics
• Caching
• DBs, continue with postgres/mysql but build on that

[smoky quest]

I have side projects and professional experience. So that's a bit different.

[ebon falcon]

ahh okay makes sense. I think once I flesh out this project itll be much more respectable in terms of professional experience but it is just a glorified list maker as of now

[winged hare]

Just small comment - I don’t think you need the “Python” in “Python Software Engineer.” Everywhere I’ve worked it, it’s assumed that most junior/transitioning engineers only know 1-2 languages, but you’ll eventually pick up more as you progress in your career.

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. for me I would not care about any title mentioned even if I am graduated master.... Because science title mean quite little in commercial exp I think.
I am more caring to reach Senior Backend Dev rank and same for DevOps.
To be honest i am more proud of being Middle ranked Backend/Devops than having master title.

Because science ranks are just that. They are nothing. Educational system is too easy to pass, if you are agile/sneaky enough. Science ranks just mean you are... capable to survive in minimal environment. in a kindergarten xD (Well or at least science ranks up to master level in my country. I think in a lot of countries it should be similar though)
Job ranks... they got a real working experience behind them, they are a real deal proving you have professional skills (if you can back it up by succesfully passing interviews/trial periods to get desired positions of course)

Obviously i would still prefer being called by name. Nobody calls a person by job rank name.

[graceful wagon]

do people review resumes here

[peak halo]

yes. be sure to cover up any self-dox info, though

[native narwhal]

I hate developing for the web but most jobs seem to be there :S

so many things that succ preventing me to becoming Python expert

[peak halo]

you can always become a Python expert. don't let your dreams be dreams.

[native narwhal]

I also don't like query languages SQL sux 😄

I will have to become Back End Engineer and it will SUCC

[peak halo]

well, query languages are tools for different purposes than python. and SQL is very widely used.

[native narwhal]

I know I have been learning about 30 different topics this past year tried many many things just to see what I like

JavaScript sux together with all the front end frameworks

I even tried mobile with Swift it doesn't suck much but apps... cmon apps suck

[peak halo]

there's going to be a stable pyscript. some day.

[gritty rivet]

Not sure if this part has been said but no, you do not pay to work with an honest recruiter, the employer does. In you apply for enough jobs on Indeed / LinkedIn you will find them. At least this is how it works in the US where I am.

[vapid jay]

Exactly, same in the Netherlands

[topaz hound]

maybe

projects do get abandoned sometimes

[graceful mason]

python in industry is mostly used as a tool by people who develop with other things, pure python jobs aren't a massive market and a lot of them will be in web development

[balmy spade]

Based on what source?

[summer roost]

Pure anything jobs aren't a massive market. Most developers need to leverage multiple languages as part of their day to day job.

[graceful mason]

my own experience. Tbh I'd reword that to say that a lot of python jobs are in web development, and pure python jobs aren't a massive market (because realistically there might not be any pure python web dev jobs)

Most python applications will fit into one of:

• web dev
• data science/analysis etc
• ML/AI
• tooling/pipeline scripts

99% of those are going to require you to use another language, or be people using python as a secondary tool

[summer roost]

I'm under the impression that ML/AI and data science are places where you'd be more likely to use Python as your only language than most...

or at least your primary language, if not your only language

[balmy spade]

I suppose I'm not sure how to define "use another language" here. I use terraform in my python deployments so that's another language. Javescript is used on frontend pages served to the user so, yes, another language for our consoles and dashboards.

Meanwhile, 100% of my team's dev work for backend work is Python. We have one logging library written in .Net used enterprise wide and custom FluentD plugins in Perl. So, again, yes more than one language. Still, I felt the first statement felt far more decisive than the second of the usefulness and application of Python.

I appreciate the clarity!

[graceful mason]

Yep I'd agree with that - maybe not as much for data science
I dont think it's worth looking at them too much since the original asker isn't interested in using SQL and databases

[delicate bane]

not interested in SQL and databases

🕯️

[tropic scroll]

hi

i wanna become a google engineer when i become older, what knowledge do i need?

[stone nymph]

Python, sql, and r the main language u use for ML/Ai/ data science

[tropic scroll]

im kinda late on learning these kind of stuff so ima work harder

[stone nymph]

Get an interview and then pass it

Depends on how far ur into ur career

[tropic scroll]

but even if you pass interview you have to do good work

[stone nymph]

are u in college or already working

[tropic scroll]

im in highschool

[stone nymph]

okay then dont worry about it

[polar forge]

Chill.

[stone nymph]

most entry positions for faang is based on ur college+ how much experience u have aka internships

[polar forge]

Learn a bit through the summer.

[tropic scroll]

but i see parents sending elementary school kids to coding classes

[polar forge]

Dum stuff to do.

[stone nymph]

are u in india/asia?

[polar forge]

Coding doesn't help unless you have an interest in it.