career-advice

[near ocean]

the main worry i would have is doing this job hunt thing again in x months

granted, it would be easier next time around

[smoky quest]

Also contractors won't be considered the same than employees and may conduce to have a lesser learning environment

[near remnant]

"Also contractors won't be considered the same than employee" what does it mean?

[smoky quest]

it means you won't have the same rights, the same benefits, no mentorship...

[near remnant]

A friend of mine got an internship at a company where every dev was a contractor..have you guys ever heard of something like this?

[near ocean]

you dont get the same benefits, eg pension contributions

[native narwhal]

Would you rather be fully remote free to travel and stay at any city even change location once a week OR have an office?
I'd greatly appreciate if someone that actually had both experiences gives their insight

[shadow moss]

Yep, it's pretty common because it let's a company just fire entire dev teams with little notice

[near remnant]

damn. so i guess taking the internship at a company where everyone is a contractor a better idea than being a contractor there..

lower risk

[smoky quest]

Depends more on the person than anything,

That said, if you are early in your career, I would recommend to get into the office to learn more about how companies work and get better mentorship (assuming your mentor is in the office)

[shadow moss]

yea, Remote Jr Devs is a pain.

[native narwhal]

makes sense

[vapid jay]

I'd like to work at a company like this

[near remnant]

why?

[spiral swift]

True.
As a junior, who has always worked remotely. It's a bit tough to be mentored virtually.

But everywhere I've worked I've always had bi-weekly 1on1s with my manager to talk about how I'm feeling, how the past 2 weeks went, what I can do to improve, and advice.

[shadow moss]

Not saying it can't work, it's just painful and slow.

but I also don't want to go into the office to talk to them either so part of it is my fault

[spiral swift]

Yeah you're right.

[ripe pagoda]

is it a good idea to slide into the dms of random ppl on linkedin

[proven crest]

Hey all, I'm applying for my first dev, I am very jr without a ton of experience in programming, but they state thats fine as they plan to mentor you and would prefer you have other skills. I match those skills to a T so feel very blessed to have this opportunity. I am attempting to write a cover letter but I am at a loss, does anyone here have any advice on it?

[sly vessel]

pls i need someone who knows alot about INSPECT ELEMENT

[proven crest]

Use one of the Help channels ( #help-potato is open right now) or ask in #python-discussion, but try to ask a specific question 🙂

[crude rune]

Hey I am Accounting and Finance student currently in my final year.
I have summer break right now for 3 months I was wondering if I can learning coding mainly Python and SQL within 3 months. I am interested more in programming and Tech more than accouting. I am also trying to get the Azure Fundamentals Certification. Is it good for a finance student to study Coding or do u need a CS Degree?

[vapid jay]

Because I want to do contract work

[jaunty heron]

Is code refactoring and testing more of Quality Assurance or SWE 🤔

[vast shoal]

Both refactoring and testing are part of a software engineer's duties, imo. A QA obviously does testing, but I don't see any scenario where a QA would do refactoring.

[coarse crag]

i think it is good for anyone to learn coding, even if you're not gonna work in IT. i remember i read an article that explains programming is beneficial for anyone, because not only it teaches how to create programs, it also teaches a way of thinking which i think is related to logical reasoning. but it would only be beneficial if you truly are interested in programming. if you only learn programming for fun, no you don't need a cs degree, but if you want to pursue a career in tech, then yes, cs degree is the best option.

[coarse crag]

check out this server's resources

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vast shoal]

Like @coarse crag says, Python and coding could be quite useful for an accountant or financial analyst, probably. You should not expect to be able to become qualified for a programming job in 3 months, though.

[jaunty heron]

Thanks for your input

[coarse crag]

oh i deleted my message because i was afraid i might have suggested something wrong. but yeah i completely agree with you.

[vast shoal]

I still see your message.

[coarse crag]

oh, i thought you were referring to the data analysis one

[peak halo]

dementati the omnivident

[coarse crag]

i've got a question tho. i know that computer science knowledge is different from programming. and for getting a decent job at software engineering, i should know computer science. but i don't have much time to learn, i need to get a job soon, is it okay if i skip learning the computer science parts and just go right into programming (as in practical knowledges like python, sql, django, shell scripting, etc)? or should i learn cs side by side with programming?

for a list, i suggest you to check out python discord resources

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vast shoal]

There are lots of good free resources, but for future reference, note that we do not permit discussions of illegal activities such as piracy on this server.

[jade rampart]

do you guys think this is a good roadmap? https://roadmap.sh/roadmaps/python.png

[vast shoal]

Yes, roadmap.sh is good.

[jade rampart]

Nice 🙂
And is there any specific place to learn things from?

Or as long as I can find it in the internet I'm ok?

[vast shoal]

You can ask here for recommendations on resources for any given topic that you want to study.

[jade rampart]

awesome

[vast shoal]

Or well, in #python-discussion might be better.

[jade rampart]

👍 🙂

[vast shoal]

This channel is more for career-specific questions.

[jade rampart]

cool

well thanks 😎

[vast shoal]

no hay de qué

[coarse crag]

any opinion on this?

[crude rune]

Thanks guys for your replies

[vast shoal]

Let me check

[coarse crag]

okay, thanks

[crude rune]

I am really interested in programming and Tech more than my current degree in finance, can I do a masters in IT or cloud computing which can help me get a job in Tech or is CS Degree the only way

I am also doing the Harvard cs50 right now

Since I am completely free for 3 months

[coarse crag]

this course is good

but i'm not sure if you can immediately switch to cloud computing for masters. i believe learning the basics of computer science is important

[crude rune]

I see

[coarse crag]

you'll have to ask other experts here tho, my opinions might not be best

[vast shoal]

Computer science is very helpful, but not critical. You can always learn more about those topics as you go.

It's not like you'll be screwed if you're not an expert day 1.

[crude rune]

I am leaning microsoft azure fundamentals right now I'll be booking a online exam with few days, I have deployed some VMs and used some azure resources with the student account I made

[coarse crag]

oh i see, yeah i think i can just learn cs while working. thank you for your advice! 🙏

[crude rune]

Thing is guys I am really interested in tech more than finance I always have been from early age but I am not good in maths that's why I went to accounting and finance where it's more basic maths with only statistics in high level

[vast shoal]

I'm not sure exactly what is covered by an IT/cloud computing course, but I imagine you'll be geared more towards sysadmin/devops roles that way.

So it might depend on what you want to end up doing.

[vast shoal]

There are lots of programming jobs that don't require advanced math.

Most, I would say.

[crude rune]

Yess bro

That's the only thing that still holds me

[vast shoal]

If anything, finance is probably more mathy than most programming.

[crude rune]

It's algebra

I am bad at linear algebra calculus and stuff

[vast shoal]

Most programming is just algebra too.

Linear algebra and calculus you only need for very specific domains.

[crude rune]

Finance is more of fixed formulas and statistics I can learn

[coarse crag]

if you're only worried about the math part of computer science, i'm pretty sure that you'll do fine since you did fine in finance.

[crude rune]

I hope so

I just want to make use of this 3 months the most

[coarse crag]

if anything, i'd be worried about how broad tech industry is and that you have to learn alot of things, but not about how hard the math is.. i guess?

[crude rune]

Things like accouting and finance it's just a lot of thoery and you know not really a skill u can learn that's why I want to learn programming it's more Interesting and useful

[coarse crag]

yeah go for it!!

[crude rune]

Yea I'll try my best

[coarse crag]

good luck!

[crude rune]

Thanks for helping me ❤️

[coarse crag]

i believe @ dementati helped you more than i did, but you're welcome!

[near remnant]

Why

[vapid jay]

I prefer it over full-time employment, keeps me flexible

[crude rune]

@vast shoal Thank you

[near remnant]

what is the average time between the final interview and the offer?

i see 1-2 days and also 1-2 weeks..so it really depends?

[graceful mason]

Recently mine took about a week, I think most of that time was waiting on the hiring agency they work with

[vapid jay]

How would y'all define or explain a self-taught developer?

[near ocean]

a developer that learned what they know by themselves, without formal education

[smoky quest]

depends on the job you are looking for.
If you are looking for jobs which require computer science knowledge, then you may not be able to answer questions or perform adequately when hired

[smoky quest]

it would be closer to 1-2 days. If it goes in a week, that's a bad sign

[coarse crag]

I will probably apply for junior python developer jobs in the future. Do you think i still need some cs knowledge? Because python can be about anything like django web dev, or data analysis etc. If yes, which subjects do you think is necessary to have? decent knowledge on operating system and networking?

[smoky quest]

It goes back to it depends. Even learning python itself could benefit from some fundamentals.
The less fundamentals you have, the more stuck in code monkey jobs you will be

[coarse crag]

I see.. I'm just gonna prepare myself as best as i can then. Thank you! 🙏

[smoky quest]

I would at least recommend to read on DSA (ex: the book introduction to algorithm) and then the rest will depend on what you want. operating systems and computer architectures will be useful later

[coarse crag]

Ohhh okay! Noted, Thank you!

[smoky quest]

Hi!
This channel is about #career-advice . You should ask in #python-discussion or check out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[strange skiff]

Ok, Thank you

[smoky quest]

There are also interesting things to learn about databases (ex: data modeling), but that only matters if you want to work with databases in some way

And it depends very much on your goal and where you are at

[coarse crag]

Yes, i am planning on learning databases too. Maybe not advanced level of database knowledge but at least decent enough.

[coarse crag]

Yeah, i just started learning about software engineering like 3 months ago. I will learn alot for the next 1-2 years and try to apply for jobs.

For now i just want a decent python developer job i guess.

[smoky quest]

have you looked for python dev ads in your country?

[coarse crag]

Actually, in my country the job opportunities are very little while the amount of people who needs a job are alot. It's gonna be very competitive and also I don't have a degree. I have to go all out on learning and having the necessary skills.

The only advantage i have right now is my english.

[smoky quest]

sounds like a tough situation

[coarse crag]

Yeah, very tough

But better than doing nothing

[smoky quest]

you may want to start with javascript and even php if it's popular

There may be more entry level jobs with these

but do your homework about the number of jobs available

[coarse crag]

Do you think it's gonna be useful to know both python and javascript? I will learn both if needed.

[smoky quest]

in general, there are more frontend jobs and it's easier to get to a point where you can find a job

learning both python and javascript would make you a fullstack. But given you are just starting, I would recommend to focus on only one thing at a time

[coarse crag]

I see, i will work on that. And also, i did try looking up on available jobs, but they are mostly for senior level developers.

[coarse crag]

I see.. I have started learning python and i am learning well so far, should i focus on python first?

[smoky quest]

Walk backward from your objective. If it's to find a coding job asap, then look at the most popular type of entry level jobs, what tooling and languages they use. Then what are you missing for these tooling and language

languages are just tools, not an end in itself. And once you know your first language, learning another won't be a big deal. The main thing is that first language and you should make sure it aligns with your objectives

[coarse crag]

I see, i will work on that and do my research on which dev jobs is most in demand right now.

[vapid jay]

i learned SQL in 2 weeks (and some python), yes you can do it. you won't be advanced but at least you will have it down good

[coarse crag]

I do think python has a decent amount of job opportunities here, that's why i started learning it, but i'm just worried that they will expect me to know alot more than just python

[smoky quest]

yeah, it's because python can be used to solve more complex problems

[vapid jay]

knowing linux and the tools you can download and use is cool. but what about learning how to code/create those tools people use - that is something i would like to learn

[coarse crag]

Yeah, that's why i'm trying to learn other things too. Like databases, etc.. All i have is time to learn. I will do my best. Thank you so much for your advice!

[smoky quest]

It's no different than writing any program. What's your level of familiarity with programming?

[smoky quest]

np.
And don't just read or watch. Make sure you practice and have projects.
Also https://www.codingame.com/ is a nice gamified way to practice more about writing code

[vapid jay]

beginner with a lot of different languages. perl, C, C++, html, sql, R, .js probably more i can't think of

on the edge of intermediate

[coarse crag]

I have been doing some codewars. Someone recommended me. I am only at level 6 kyu now, but i will do more practice in the future. Do you think codingame is better than codewars?

[smoky quest]

Then the tools people use are no different than what you have been doing 🙂

[smoky quest]

It's about which one gets you to use it more. Doesn't matter which one as long as you enjoy it

[vapid jay]

people that create those tools are just very advanced, years of programming

[coarse crag]

I see, i do enjoy solving codewars problems. Once again, thanks!

[smoky quest]

you would be surprised. It's not necessarily the case.
A lot of tools started because the author had an itch to scratch

[vapid jay]

when your job is to show up to the office and code, and you get paid for it. it makes a lot of sense why they can do that

my first coding experience was editing java scripts for runescape bots, eventually creating my own script from scratch after looking at the code for a long time

then i used perl for another game

[random marsh]

hello, Im 16yo and I’m getting more comfortable with python. Here can I find simple jobs to earn a little money just to spend this vacation with my friends?

[oak wasp]

hey, i am 22 year old. there is payable mini task? i know django rest framework but in my country there is not jobs at django.

[coarse crag]

No, this is for career-advice, not for promotions or recruitments. If you want to find jobs, it's not here. And also, i think you would need more than just "comfortable with python". And also check if it's legal in your country to get a job at 16.

[random marsh]

I have a Data Analyst certificate from DataCamp and yes, it's legal to work even full Time with 16 in my country so I just wanted to know if I can get a part-time to have more financial freedom which is kinda difficult in my country

[coarse crag]

In that case, you might be able to get a part time job in data analysis. But this server is not the place to find jobs. Look up on freelancing or any other job related websites that's popular in your country. I just want to remind you that alot of people need jobs and money to feed their family. They would do anything to earn that "little money". So getting a job is not as simple as that. And also, iirc someone here mentioned that data scientists/data analysis jobs need a degree or credibility. I am not sure if your certificate will be acceptable. Getting normal dev jobs is easier.

Well, i mean, it's still hard since getting a job in general is very competitive. But if you aim for data analysis/science jobs, i think it's harder especially for juniors.

[random marsh]

Yeah, I’ll try to see something related to freelancing like Upwork

[coarse crag]

Yeah, good luck!

[random marsh]

Yea but Data Analysis is my focus and I got the luck that this year a university in my town opened an AI and Data Analysts course so I'm working hard to get on that

[random marsh]

Thanks

[coarse crag]

That sounds awesome! Study well!

[gritty rivet]

You can try platforms like Upwork but the competition is pretty fierce and pay is low

[livid moat]

Remember, HR people are not on your side
/s or no /s?

[jagged glade]

likely not sarcasm - HR is there to defend the company from lawsuits and similar threats from personnel, not to defend the personnel themselves. It'll usually do both when possible, but that's not always possible.

[near remnant]

would you guys accept a great job at a tech company if you were living in Europe but the company is in the US and also you have to use your own, personal computer / laptop for work?

[dense mesa]

Yes but you'd have to do some mechatronic and/or mechanical engineering either before applying or learn on the job

[dense mesa]

No because using your own personal devices is not reasonable

[near ocean]

to be fair its something that could be fixed instantly, just request equipment to be sent to you before you sign

[smoky quest]

They mentioned earlier that it would be a contracting job. Which changes the situation

[dense mesa]

Ah ok nvm, well if it's the first job out of uni I personally wouldn't take a contracting job

[round iron]

do u need a specific degree to be a software engineer ?

[near ocean]

Ideally a Computer Science degree, next best is any STEM degree, but you can realistically get into software dev with any degree

[round iron]

like any of these will do also?

what would be a nice degree these years in IT? im so lost

i love interacting with robots and creating stuff but i also wish to have a good pay & hiring rate

which kind of degree are similar or close to them

[oak wasp]

in upwork many tasks is for middle and senior

[near ocean]

none of those two, but any computer science degree you take will have some component of embedded programming
look for something like mechatronics or embedded programming

[round iron]

with the background knowledge of the degree if i somehow chose big data.

is there any possible to move up to software engineer by any chance with experience?

[near ocean]

yes, of course, its still a comp science degree, it will probably have a couple more modules related to whatever subtype (?) you choose

[round iron]

hmm i see

thanks alot rrly helped me settled down

it may be quite sensitive but what's the highest paying job in IT sectors rn ?

[near ocean]

No idea, you could look up specific job titles and their average salaries but no idea which one is highest

[crude rune]

Broo for real can you please till me from where all u have studied online, right now I am learning from freecodecamp

[round iron]

i did some research and concluded that cybersec, data analyst and software engineer are highest paid. Is it true?

[near ocean]

those are all very generic job titles

pay is also company specific, you could be doing the same thing at google and at a small startup but your pay wont be the same

also you could be a software engineer anywhere, a game dev is a software engineer but they wont ever make as much as a software engineer in a bank or hedge fund

you should decide on a career using your enjoyment of the subject and not how much money you "could potentially be making"

[round iron]

I see. Thank you so much

[peak halo]

"software engineer" is probably the most generic programmer job title. and "cybersec" is a topic, not a job title. at my company, programmers who do cybersec or AI-related work generally make more than programmers who do not.

[round iron]

what degree u need for AI-related work

must it be AI degree ?

[peak halo]

computer science with AI-related coursework

though some universities might offer degrees that are even more specifically about AI

[coarse crag]

I did learn python from freecodecamp. But it was moving too fast that i missed alot of the basics. I suggest learning from books. You can look up "best book on python", "best book on sql" etc. You can learn from websites too, but i think it's rather too broad and messy (as in not as structured as books)

[near remnant]

Why do people pay insane amount of money for bootcamps when they can just get an unpaid internship, same thing or better experience but for $0. 💀

[peak halo]

You can't "just get an internship". Programmer internships are almost always paid, for one thing, and they're usually only offered to students.

[near remnant]

Oh sure. I got an offer for 3 months unpaid internship and 110k after the internship.

I wanna accept it but Im not sure. I mean its a good long term opportunity but dont know.

[peak halo]

Is the 110k guaranteed after the three months? What's the fine print here?

[gilded valley]

You've been talking about the unpaid internship for 2 months in this channel

[peak halo]

If the deal is "after three months of unpaid work, we might offer you a full time position, and it might be up to 110k", that's very different from what you said

Unless the full time position is guaranteed, there's a high probability that you'll have nothing to show for your time after the internship ends.

[near remnant]

Thats my hobby mate, it gets funny everytime

I like seeing people get mad

[peak halo]

So you're just trolling us...?

[near remnant]

No

[peak halo]

Then why did you say this

[near remnant]

I'm just telling, for someone, coming from different field, different education, getting into the industry is much harder. A friend of mine did an unpaid internship and now he works at a FAANG company. If you have money saved up, live at home, and have long-term goals and the company is helpful, then what's wrong with it? Some people know nothing and they expect big bucks. I'm against unpaid work but there are cases when you have to do it.

[peak halo]

Doesn't answer my question

[near remnant]

But maybe I'm wrong, maybe 3 months of internship at a tech company won't help a self-taught developer getting their first full-time job

[near remnant]

I was just joking mate, I'm not trolling..sorry

[peak halo]

Alright. But be sure that you don't waste the time of our volunteers.

[near remnant]

Don't worry, I love this community.

[crude rune]

Oh I see

[deep yarrow]

Hi. I am a python dev with few months of experience. I am looking to volunteer for startups/ new ideas. Dm me if you are interested working with me.

[proven crest]

Hi all, i'm applying for my first job in development, its very jr level and they put a lot of emphasis on having somone who is wanting to learn, grow and develop and other skills which i have in abundance

I've wrote a cover letter but its the first one ive wrote, are there any recruiters or people who have had experience writing or reading them that can give me some feedback on my first draft?

[gilded valley]

your best bet is to just post it, remove any personal or identifying info, and ask for feedback here

[proven crest]

Too long to post unfortunately

[gilded valley]

take a screenshot of the word document

or the whatever-format-it-is-document

[near ocean]

How long? Should be a one page thing

[vast shoal]

You could for example paste the text to https://paste.pythondiscord.com/ and link it here.

[dense mesa]

You have said multiple times that you enjoy talking about this but not taking advice tho 😂

[near ocean]

Please for the love of god and everything that is holy, stop considering unpaid interships
You are part of the problem

[vital spear]

and where to find paid internships?

not everyone knows a bunch of people with connections in the companies that provide paid internships

[vapid jay]

Guys, can someone give me some advice on how to improve my resume? https://www.marinjursic.me/Resume.pdf

[near ocean]

You find paid internships wherever you find other paid positions
If you can't find someone to pay you for your work without connections you're doing something wrong

I found paid work with no experience and no internships during my studies, mid pandemic mid lockdowns and so did most of my friends and classmates

Think of it this way as well, if someone got you to do work for free that work is unimportant and so irrelevant on your cv, may as well be watering the office plants

[vapid jay]

this job posting wants exposure to centos/redhat, but i only ever really used ubuntu and a little aws linux. im not exactly sure what I should do to learn more about some of these linux variants except maybe fiddle around in a docker image for a bit and read the wiki page?

[tiny temple]

who learns linux flavours!!

[gritty rivet]

I would have a look at study materials for the RHCSA exam to get an idea of things you can practice/know how to do. Or if that's too advanced, do the Linux Upskill Challenge. I'm not positive but suspect AWS Linux is close enough to those other flavors

[charred pecan]

What youtube channels do you suggest me for learning python?

[dense mesa]

Is this for a career?

[neon coral]

@charred pecan if you want a good start in the basics of python go to programming with mosh on yt or go to free code camp (freecodecamp.org) its a pretty good way to learn the basics.

[charred pecan]

thanks a lot

[dreamy oriole]

Is my career secure in blockchain development?

[graceful mason]

Blockchain is sort of a solution looking for a problem atm, so who knows what will happen to it in the future

[dreamy oriole]

So what is the field in which I can secure my future?

[vast shoal]

Web development is very likely to remain stable for the foreseeable future, for example.

Data science is probably not going anywhere either.

[gritty rivet]

This question is no longer relevant the way it used to be. Technology is always changing faster and faster, and no matter what you learn today you will need to learn something new year after year. The more specialized and specific your skillset because you were chasing the hot new trend instead of developing general engineering skills, the more quickly it will rot. Learn how to identify and learn what's in demand for the next few years, keep learning, and you'll be fine.

[dreamy oriole]

Thanks a lot

[buoyant seal]

mm yeah, i actually asked myself sort of same question about what I should learn first more throughly.
When you are desktop/mobile/backend developer, you are obligated to learn generic Software Engineer stuff. This stuff is super stable and not really changed for the last 20 years.
And highly likely it will change in less than 10% capacity for the next 20 years as well.

When I asked myself if I should learn DevOps? Well i learned to middle rank because i really wished to
But this stuff can highly get itself outdated in less than 3 years. And it should be completely outdated in 6 years.
That's why i decided to learn more of backend first... once I learned backend role to the fullest first, i can go back to DevOps in a more full manner

In average books I need to learn for generic Software Engineer stuff are 20 years old 🤔 All of them are the best and most recommended as main sources

for DevOps, it is good to find a book of a current year, or finding nothing at all 😄

[livid moat]

should i consider getting an internship or a different position if possible next year?

i mostly want to learn about the industry and get some experience

[buoyant seal]

are you a student?

[livid moat]

check my bio, yes

[buoyant seal]

different position from what? from internship?

[buoyant seal]

wait, you are already in university while being 14 ys old? or u a still in a school?

[dreamy oriole]

Yes

[sonic token]

I'm in high-school, and have got like a lot of years that I can "use" to do something productive. I feel like I have a tilt towards programming but idk I also have many other passions and interests, I don't wanna be sitting behind a desk, but want to be actively engaged in building something new or doing something new, probably with a mechanical touch to programming, maybe do something humanitarian or aid the poorer sectors of society by something innovative in technology, that can have an application and helpfulness in segments of their lives, but side by side earning a stable income, to focus on building other projects, in short, don't want to be a one trick pony. But I feel like school really restricts the possibilities, high-school anyways. Should I opt for many subjects that pique my interest or just choose the bare minimum and use the time I have generated for other courses, like on Internet, skillshare or whatnot?, because I feel like I will need a degree or certification everywhere in future, so should I focus solely on the bare minimum degree and stuff or do something to actually improve my skills

[livid moat]

school

i'm old enough to get a part time job next year, so i was looking at my options

[buoyant seal]

internship / or part time job. Whatever you wish. It would be perfect as long as it correctly aligns with your career plans
If you wish to be backend dev, you need to apply for backend internship/junior positions
if anything else, then anything else.

Just beware to be not applying for stuff like QA, as it is sort of a dead end career, after which it is hard to change yourself for a different path
or desk help support
Basically if you are applying for internship / part time, you are supposed to be already knowing in which area you wish to work.
Be it python dev, or anything else.

I worked as a desk support in university years though. It was easy job compatible with studies. But you know, it was kind of useless experience for my career. Just little money in addition and nothing more. Slightly considered for career if i will be working in Ops aligned specializations though (DevOps / SRE)

[buoyant seal]

The thing is... Only after 3 years of a serious working experience of a graduate person, employers only start to consider you being a bit more than your current technology stack / highly specific specialization. And it will be probably still not considered until 4-5 years 🤔 Basically, whatever you choose, you are going to be stuck with for the first 3-4 years of career, and changing at that time is going to be hard anything

Though i would clarify that it is how it goes in third world countries 🤔

[livid moat]

thnx

[livid moat]

.bm idk lol

[near ocean]

Any one in the UK have any experience with changing jobs and being told that the start date is too close to your notice date and that somehow that's against a non-compete clause in the contract?

[delicate bane]

thats also what ive heard about QA. what do people do after, idk, 10+ years or so? switch to a different field?

[smoky quest]

• They continue to do QA
• They become manager / lead for their team
• They try to get into dev or something else

[buoyant seal]

the problem with those career alignments, because they make a path of least resistance.
once you got yourself into something like QA, you are highly likely to keep going in it, because it is easier to get hired in it with previous experience
and it would mean getting same or higher salary as well 🤔 sort of a loop that prevents your from getting out of it

[delicate bane]

[sudden eagle]

I got some good technical skills <programming languages+competitive programming > i do excel at automation ,that's why i am interested in becoming SW tester <my faculty offers good courses for it> . Would it be a waste of my technical skills? or they do improve my value as a tester?

<please note that automation software projects are very limited and mostly non ethical >

[delicate bane]

non-ethical

[sudden eagle]

against sites TOS

[long storm]

Career

[haughty steppe]

Do you guys believe that for CS nowadays going to the University of Waterloo in comparison to someplace like McMaster really makes all the difference, I'm in my final year of HS right now and am taking English as a summer school class. I understand that Waterloo hates that especially for there CS majors but I kind of ruled out the possibility of Waterloo simply because of the already high cost of tuition on top of what I'd have to pay for residence, which is also not getting any cheaper anytime soon. At this point I'm not really sure whether I made regrettable choices and I do understand that degrees are getting acknowledged less and less but I still would like to know what any more experienced developers or people currently going to that University / experiencing what it is to be a CS major think.

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. it will matter if you are going to become entrepreneur.
entrepreneur = Money + Networking.
good university provides Netoworking, which will eventually lead to getting Money as well

and plus it could lead to a easier getting job after uni.. because again Networking, unofficial and official that uni has

[mortal wedge]

What's everyone's favorite question to ask in interviews to gauge general programmatic knowledge? I'm interviewing people who are fluent in languages I don't use, so I'm hesitant to ask questions that are language specific, but I still want to get a good grasp on their programmatic practice/logical problem solving flow. Any thoughts/ideas?

[smoky quest]

I would ask them to describe an interesting project or a tough problem they solve or something where they had to go deep in it

[mortal wedge]

Getting degrees is still highly acknowledged and necessary, it's still possible to get work without one but you're putting yourself at a severe disadvantage.

Where you get your degree matters a lot less. I look to see if someone has a degree and I might be impressed if it's from a prestigious uni, but I'm not going to penalize someone for not getting a degree from one. But I do penalize if they have no degree to speak of, most job postings even for senior positions want you to have a degree.

That being said, if you've been in the work force for a while I really don't care about your educational background. I can gauge you by your recent relevant experience instead. Educational background is more of a thing only for your first job.

(Disclaimer: My experience as a job seeker and interviewer is only in the US, could be different in other countries)

[mortal wedge]

Hmm, that's a good idea. I don't want to gate them into one specific topic they may be uncomfortable with

[smoky quest]

you could also go from the other way around: given a specific problem, how might they solve it? Whatever language or pseudocode would work there

[mortal wedge]

That said, if someone says they have Python experience I'm absolutely asking them what a dictionary is 😄

and if you can't answer that I'll get legit angry for having my time wasted, lol

[thick phoenix]

hello I'm a python developer right now but I am thinking to go for data scientist and machine learning... i want to ask if data scientist and machine learning are two different roles ? and what i have to do to go for it

[mortal wedge]

They can be two different roles. Well, a data scientist is more of a role while machine learning is more of a toolset. Some companies separate the roles (data scientist vs machine learning engineer) while others do not.

As a data scientist you'd be shooting yourself in the foot imo for not at least getting some familiarity with the tools machine learning can provide.

[thick phoenix]

self driving cars , computer vision I want to go in this technology so people suggest me to go for data scientist

[mortal wedge]

As far as what you have to do to go for it.. you'd want to know statistics well and the different packages available in whatever language you're going for. At a bare minimum I would expect someone to have expertise with pandas, numpy, and matplotlib. I don't see how someone could be an effective python data scientist without knowing those libraries or libraries that build off of those.

[crude crown]

as a python developer, it might be easier to jump into a MLE role more focused in either infra or more as a SWE-ML role

As roles that don't really require mathematics/statistics know-how, mostly an awareness of the "ML lifecycle" at least for supervised learning based projects/products

[mortal wedge]

A data scientist in a company that's doing self-driving cars seems more geared towards validating results while a machine learning engineer may be more geared towards actual development. Depends on which you'd rather be doing. (I don't have experience in computer vision/self driving car stuff, so this is just my guess)

[crude crown]

Long time no see @mortal wedge, hope all's good! 🙂

[thick phoenix]

for a SWE-ML what should i start learning?

[light quarry]

whats the median salary for a software engineer in the us?

[thick phoenix]

i believe 100k

[crude crown]

Assuming that you're decent enough at Python, I recommend deep diving into "proper" data engineering

[light quarry]

and in canada? its really lower compared to the us?

[mortal wedge]

Hey there! Pretty well, how about yourself?

[thick phoenix]

I'm in Canada so i am telling from my experience

you can get same in Canada

[mortal wedge]

Canada google told me 93k

[crude crown]

not too bad, could be way worse I guess.

[mortal wedge]

US google told me 110k

[thick phoenix]

ohh k i have to look for ML engineer then because i don't think we need much coding in data scientist

[mortal wedge]

Preach....

[thick phoenix]

for freshers? also depends on province

[mortal wedge]

Median salary, not entry level

[light quarry]

yeah i asked median

[mortal wedge]

and yeah, probably does depend on province.

[thick phoenix]

hmm thats strange google is paying very less

[crude crown]

So, currently I see the four/five following roles in the ML/data world:

[mortal wedge]

I wouldn't take google as anything other than a rough benchmark

[thick phoenix]

which are?

[crude crown]

1 - Applied Scientist (this used to be more in the scope of "Data Scientist" but I see more and more companies doing this split)
2 - Data Scientist (depending on the company, it could be either a Data Analyst role in disguise or as a "full-stack" data scientist embedded in a product team)
3 - Data Analyst (you better be pretty awesome with SQL here)
4 - ML/Data Engineer (I'm putting these two together as I'm seeing these roles more and more being merged)
5 - Analytics Engineering (This is a pretty recent one, and a BS/buzzwordy one at that. From what I see, this is a rebranding of a BI/DB/DWH developer along with some tasks in the domain of data engineering)

[thick phoenix]

do companies ask for ds algo if you have experience?

[crude crown]

depends on the role in question

if applying as an Applied Scientist or as an Data Scientist, absolutely count on that.

https://workera.ai/ is a pretty good site to figure out which role is a better fit for you

[thick phoenix]

hmm looks amazing

[light quarry]

has canada a better market than europe in software engineering? in terms of salaries, job opportunities, better in general. I really cant decide where to study, and i would like to choose the one that offers me more opportunities to grow.

[mortal wedge]

Can you explain what you mean by this question?

[mortal wedge]

Both europe and canada are very broad and large, I would assume there are areas in both that are favorable to software engineers. I would challenge you to instead decide where you want to live for other reasons besides your career.

[smoky quest]

Go to the other continent from which you are from.
You can always go back to your current continent if needed but the international experience will be invaluable

[near ocean]

guys, if i send a resignation letter after work hours, can i still say that the work day that just passed was the first of my notice? or will people not buy that

[gritty rivet]

If your employer is counting days like that, you have other problems and it doesn't matter.

I'm assuming here we're talking about the customary courtesy of two weeks notice... If this is a legal question, ask a lawyer

[graceful mason]

usually your notice period starts the next calendar day (at least in the UK)

[gritty rivet]

Country probably matters a lot, I'm answering from the US

[thick phoenix]

generally companies take competitive programming rounds for freshers or junior position

[mortal wedge]

Gotcha

[near ocean]

This is in the UK, should have mentioned

[mortal wedge]

It depends. The general assumption is that programming questions are pointless for senior positions because surely they know how to do all of that. However, some people (myself included) will still ask questions like that to gauge how they think/respond, even if they don't immediately know the answer. Sometimes the seniors will answer correctly before I even finish the question, great. Othertimes they have to think about it, but will walk through the process, that's also fine.

My thought process is that a resume is just a piece of paper, why not do some basic due diligence to confirm things on it? Part of my interviewing is to discern whether or not what's listed on the resume is true. If it's on your resume, be prepared to speak to it.

[pastel thunder]

should you mention a startup on resume?

if your one of the co-founder

that might mean less commitment to work, time would split

[delicate bane]

for #5, i mostly agree with what you have said. its mostly come about due to how popular tools like https://www.getdbt.com/ has become. ive also come across multiple explanations as to this phenomena, and the one i believe has merit is that many Data Analysts would prefer this type of role since it is more technical and less "business-y" (which can sometimes involve politics and such)

the other side of it, but less prevalent, is that some Data Engineers want to be closer to the business-side of things

[azure orchid]

Guys does anyone have any time to help me with some interview question practice I need help with relating to software development?

[delicate bane]

oh also (apparently) these roles allow for data teams to access their data faster for downstream use cases since the Data Engineers are usually juggling 100 different things

[smoky quest]

Don't hide important information relative to your employment. You don't want to surprise people

(there may also be some sticky pointed in terms of IP and how they all fit together)

[mortal wedge]

Absolutely! I do. Unless you have a compelling reason to otherwise, I don't see why you would exclude it. A startup is not a red flag to any reasonable person, (it's just harder to verify, especially if the startup is no longer active). However, while it's not damning for me, I do know managers that treat any lapse of employment as a red flag. So not listing something in the middle of your employment history might indicate to an employer that you weren't working at the time.

[azure orchid]

Why the name chaos ? Are you into chaos testing?

[mortal wedge]

I chose it when I was a 13 year old edgelord and have been too lazy to change it since.

[crude crown]

yup, definitely dbt had a big part on this role showing up although it's weird how it was possible for a tool that's essentially SQL with Jinja templates (plus things like data lineage) was seemingly pivotal for this to happen... bit of a weird shilling campaign that happened here but 🤷‍♂️

[delicate bane]

SQL + Jinja templates is a powerful thing...i see it in almost every notebook service ("product") that incorporates SQL since it basically allows for parameters to be included

also i think the expectation for analytics engineers is to be more up-to-date with more modern tools like bigquery/snowflake/databricks/etc., since that stuff is kinda outside the wheelhouse of most DBAs i believe

this is all from an outsider's perspective though, mostly through podcasts and articles... @crude crown what do you think?

[crude crown]

that seems to fit with what I've been seeing lately, you'll definitely be focused on OLAP like workflows

[crystal wren]

hello guys

i am currently learning python, do you recommend to learn about git

[vast shoal]

Yes, git is extremely useful for software development in general.

[crystal wren]

my friend told me, if you would upload project it will increase the odds to get job, i am not currently having CS degree, i am from different steam, i get sometimes worry how hard will it get job without degree, i am working to improve my skills what are your thoughts ?

[vast shoal]

Though if you're a complete beginner, it might not be critical to learn about it right away. But you definitely should study it at some point.

[vast shoal]

If you can get a degree, that's a much easier and safer route.

[crystal wren]

sorry i forgot to type

"not"

[vast shoal]

It's not impossible to get a job without a degree, but it is much more difficult.

[crystal wren]

i actually don't have any alternative, i guess i have worked twice as hard to generate some great value

if i don't have degree.

[vast shoal]

You'll need to demonstrate a comparable skillset to someone who has gone to university.

Uploading your personal projects on Github doesn't hurt, and is good practice.

[delicate bane]

yeah agreed

[crystal wren]

i am curious to know how does it help me, will they able to arrange interview, for me ?

do you have any other suggestions which you think i do which can help me to know ?

[smoky quest]

It doesn't help you.
It's just that companies will put out an ad for a job they are trying to fill.
Candidates will see such ad and then start applying. The company will then call back the candidates (ie. their resume) which look interesting and interview them.
So that means that your resume, experience and profile need to be good enough to generate enough interest so companies call you back for an interview whenever you apply. And that also means your resume, experienec and profile need be as good, if not better, than the other candidates, who will have degrees and internships, etc.

[smoky quest]

Out of curiosity, what makes it not a possibilitiy?

[crystal wren]

i am from art steam, for b.tech i will have to do start from class 10th

b.tech science and math are mandatory

[coarse crag]

you mean from art major?

[crystal wren]

yes

[coarse crag]

that's why you can't get into bachelor in tech related field?
so it's related to the education system in your country?

[crystal wren]

thank you for sharing, i truly appreciate the you took to type.

[crystal wren]

extactly

[coarse crag]

i see

[crystal wren]

i am 25 and even i droped colleage

[coarse crag]

i generally recommend people to look into https://roadmap.sh/

and https://teachyourselfcs.com/
as a guide for self-teaching yourself computer science (and eventually get into software engineering)

[crystal wren]

wonderful thank you so much, i am currently pursuing 100 days of coding

[coarse crag]

that's awesome! keep it up! although you will need to work really really hard to reach it, but it's not impossible.

[native narwhal]

Is this true please vote

[crystal wren]

you made me nervous

[smoky quest]

sometimes yes, sometimes no

it depends

[coarse crag]

that really depends on the individual, some people love it, some people get stressed with software dev jobs

[native narwhal]

lol

you are right but sometimes love hurts 😄

[smoky quest]

no pain no gain

[crystal wren]

i also think it is hard, i am curoius to know what is making really hard as per you ?

[coarse crag]

exactly, but you learn alot more from being hurt than from being happy i guess?

[vast shoal]

I am very relaxed in my current position, but it depends a lot on my employer and the work culture in my country, I think.

[coarse crag]

ahahah, i mean, i am still a beginner and i am in a very similar situation with you. it's hard because people who has a degree has a credibility that proves they at least had an education in computer science or related field. basically companies have more trust for someone who has a degree.

i suggest you to read this #career-advice message

[crystal wren]

damn, happy to know someone is in same boat i looked the post, i think much about job is not healthy mindeset right

[smoky quest]

It even goes beyond that.
Let's say you find an easy job, regardless of the degree. Then what will you have to show for 2 years down the road? How can you justify a promotion? How can you find the next gig when you have nothing to show for?
Growth comes from stretching yourself and sometimes, it can be uncomfortable. But growth compounds.

[crystal wren]

we need to become very good at our skills we will make it happen.

[coarse crag]

yeah this exactly 👍

[stuck helm]

I currently work as a solo software engineer with a small company, but I am starting a new position with a big company.
What are some things I should know to work with a team of developers in terms of workflow?

[smoky quest]

Don't assume things are there for a reason :p
So don't hesitate to ask about it

(but in general there is a reason, even if just historical)

[coarse crag]

this is kinda off-topic, but i'm just curious.. considering your level of expertise, why do you want to help the people here? definitely i am very thankful for your advice and stuff, but i just wonder why

[smoky quest]

I was bored in a rest and vest position

[coarse crag]

ah i see.. anyway, you're a good person, and i'm really thankful for the advices you have given us.

[vast shoal]

Don't be afraid to ask questions. Take notes, so you don't have to ask the same thing twice. Give stuff an honest try before you ask someone, but don't bang your head against the wall for a long time if you don't make any progress. Try to be proactive in helping others if you can, it's appreciated and improves team productivity.

[stuck helm]

These are some really good points!! Thank you!!

Is there a way to pin your message haha.

[lapis crater]

this is kind of off topic from python but anyone know the best place to start, as far as languages and experience to have, to get a job in the web3 space

[stuck helm]

Before I actually start, should I go through git commands that focuses on using git with a team?
I have been using git, but it's really basic with cloning, committing and pushing to main repo.
At one point I had started creating branches which I would later merge with main repo, but I haven't done it in some time.

[stuck helm]

Things are mostly there for a reason, but sometimes they are not, so ask.

[vast shoal]

You could brush up on merging and rebasing. Interactive rebasing is a useful tool to know. Read about the Git Flow branch methodology, it's common with a scheme that's at least similar to it. Learn the mechanics of resolving merge conflicts.

[stuck helm]

ok I will brush up on git! Thanks!!
I think I had seen a video sometime back which was for this purpose.

[patent cargo]

Is it better to get a career in programming or web development?

[limber robin]

(this is off topic but hi! it's nice seeing you in this server)

[patent cargo]

Freelance, I mean

Is the web development scene active enough and can you compete with people from other countries that undercut bids?

[summer roost]

My understanding is that the freelance market is very divided by skill. Tasks that require a lot of skill can pay extremely well, but tasks that require relatively low skill are a race to the bottom with lots of competition all undercutting each other.

the fewer people who can do the job you do, the more lucrative freelancing is likely to be for you. If tons of people can do the job, you'll very likely be competing with people willing to work for much less than you.

[thorn meadow]

hi

idk what i wanna be but I wanna do something with computers

[pure raft]

Hello, major school crisis moment here:

Trying to go for a 2nd degree in comp sci, having a massively hard time getting in anywhere because my prerequisites are nonexistent in math, and the community college I was looking forward to taking a prereq course in, the other unis that I’m looking at don’t consider that course, legitimate. I work and live in a big city, and I don’t know what to do.

I need the courses to both be virtual, and give a bachelors in comp sci. I’ll do whatever it takes to get A’s in the classes themselves, but this has been so difficult to just even get a single opportunity that it’s insane

[south dove]

does anyone know any good high school coding competitions in America?

[ocean stream]

hey im curious if its ethical to use other peoples code without crediting

[smoky quest]

Sounds like: "is it ethical to use the work of others and pass it as my own". And that's absolutely unethical and sometimes could create a liability (ie. someone could get sued)

[smoky quest]

Sounds like you know what to do: finding a school that provides the required classes with the right accreditation. Given it's remote, what's stopping you from doing a lot of phone calls/research to the schools across your state and country?

[ocean stream]

could you ethically just add/remove a couple features of code and itd be ok? like whats the threshold

[smoky quest]

any change

Just don't be a dick and give credit. It's so easy to say "based on the work from <X>"

[ocean stream]

where would you put that?

just in a commnent?

[smoky quest]

depends on the nature of thing we are talking about and how it's transmitted

[ocean stream]

ig thats fair

[smoky quest]

here is an example: https://infra.apache.org/licensing-howto.html

but try to put yourself in the other person shoes: how would you feel if I was to take a project you spent weeks and months on, just to pass it as my own and even make money from it?

[ocean stream]

i wouldnt care tbh, thats the problem, im apethetic so i cant see it from that way

[smoky quest]

you would be the exception

[ocean stream]

i think a comment would do or something in this information of the application

[smoky quest]

If we are talking about software, there would be a license somewhere that details what you can or cannot do though

[ocean stream]

i hate ethical dylemas D:

what if its not available

like its a super small scale thing made for like 1000 people

[smoky quest]

are you saying it's not avoidable to be a dick?

that would make you a terrible person

[ocean stream]

it def is i just dk how

[ocean stream]

indeed

[smoky quest]

it's way too vague to help you

[summer roost]

if the code doesn't have a license, then you can't legally use it without violating the author's copyright. And piracy is generally seen as unethical.

[ocean stream]

i think i can just credit them in part of my docuentation?

[summer roost]

if the code does have a license, then you need to read the license and follow its terms.

[ocean stream]

so if it doesnt have a liciences its ok to litterally copy paste it?

[smoky quest]

whatever is the thing we are talking about, there should be a LICENSE file or some header

[summer roost]

that's literally the opposite of what I said.

[ocean stream]

oh

oh wait u right

[smoky quest]

that's the opposite. The owner owns every right. So if nothing is spelled out, then you can't do anything

[summer roost]

what a license does is grant usage (technically, reproduction and modification) rights to people.

[ocean stream]

at what point does it become my code?

[summer roost]

no license, no one has been granted those rights.

[ocean stream]

because it solves a problem somebody else wrote it and i want to use it

[smoky quest]

your changes are yours. But the overall project becomes a combined work

It's no different than if we work together on a project: my changes are mine and your changes are yours. The sum is the aggregation of our work

[ocean stream]

alright

i think ill just make some changes in some way that i see would benifit my cause, plug the author in the documentation and in coments, and if i get sued ill be scared

[summer roost]

why not just ask the author for permission to use it?

[smoky quest]

the license in the original project should be obvious and easy to find. You couldn't find anything?

[ocean stream]

good question

[ocean stream]

naw its not a super public thing

i think ill just ask the homie if i can use it

no problems there in that case

[smoky quest]

that works too

[pure raft]

Yeah honestly I’ve been doing that for the past few months, and I’ve been finding either

“unis who want a bunch of prereqs”

“too expensive (+500 range/credit)”

“We don’t take second degree students”

“We’re not virtual”

[smoky quest]

how is the student loan thing for you? Is it an option?

[pure raft]

I’ll end up getting 1 free semester, but it’s gonna be all out of pocket pretty much, so payment plan is def gonna be the way to go

But honestly the money isn’t even the worst part, so many schools I’d KILL to go to won’t accept 2nd degree or 2nd degree comp sci

[smoky quest]

I would see it as an investment

[pure raft]

Exactly yeah

[smoky quest]

the USA's education system makes no sense to me

[pure raft]

It really doesn’t whatsoever. All this stress about how people should value school and yet they pull your teeth out if god forbid you want to make a career change in life past 25

For a school to not accept a post bachelor degree is ridiculous

Flies in the face of the pursuit of knowledge to me, but I digress. Does anybody know of any schools who:

-accept 2nd bachelors students
-offer remote computer science bachelor’s

[plush spindle]

Have you guys heard of the phrase 'tutorial hell'.
If I understand it correctly, it means watching tutorials of people making projects and doing that continuously without making anything of your own. ( I think ) I was planning to do the same thing lol.
but I want to become an expert at data visualization in python, wouldn't that need me to watch people make projects and follow along ( for the first 2 or 3 projects at least) and then make my own ?

[smoky quest]

whatever works for you

[plush spindle]

so a few videos and then make my own projects ?

[smoky quest]

I am more of a book type of person, but whatever works for you

The point of tutorial hell is to get out of just following simple tutorials

[plush spindle]

I also a book person 😎 , almost done with python crash course

[plush spindle]

I see, so I guess follow along with videos/books to learn how to make basic projects and then move on to make more complex ones by yourself 🤔

[smoky quest]

yep. Have fun, there are so many things to discover

[plush spindle]

🙏

Thanks @smoky quest

[limber widget]

Good morning, I just wondering if any of you guys had multiple jobs or just one?

[buoyant seal]

I prefer to have just one
Better concentrated on it
And I can use all remaining time for self education which is important

Within same job I was offered to get desired responsibilities as 20% overtime... I am tempted to take the offer
But hesitant because I need a time to learn
And my work life balance is already messed up

[near remnant]

Would you guys accept a Business Analyst role?

I want to have a career in programming but got an offer for a business Analyst job

I feel like I would give up everything that I've learned for programming

[buoyant seal]

I would not.
As far as I get, BA is market selling representative

I am not able to function in this way

[buoyant seal]

In some definitions, BA is Interragator of business requirements for software product. If it is so, then I also did BA in the past. But still I would not wish it as full time role, as I prefer to be architect commanding whole development process than doing only first step in it

In this definition, BA is a diplomat between devs and client desiring to build software

[near remnant]

Yes, it is

Im deciding, between a paid Business Analyst role and an unpaid Python Developer internship

[pastel thunder]

after MSML will it hurt to change from SDE role to data scientist role??

i mean taking sde after msml then data scientist

[buoyant seal]

BA sounds to me like yet another manager
If u have aptitude for that, then sure
But so far it sounds to me like a position who fail in development

I don't feel that BA is position secure to be hardly irreplaceable
Python Dev would eventually grow (from middle rank) to not ending supply of jobs

But... BA can actually evolve into managing jobs
And this position can eventually earn even more than developer Jobs can offer ever
... If I a up to be evolving in this way, sure, but it is really alternative way.

BA is a first step on Software architect way also. So it is still related to development and it should be possible to jump from it to development, but it is not expected way, like jumping from managers to devs

Technically... Interns bring nothing, except consuming time of other devs for their education
(Some interns could be bringing some value, but I expect it to be completely outgunned by used resources on intern)

It is still expected to get at least some really small compensation though

The problem is .. he will not recognize if the internship is beneficial to his growth or not

Or will he? It would be interested to know what kind of things he will be doing in it

Fair point

May be internship gets quickly to paid one at some point though

[near remnant]

They would hire me as an intern to mentor me and train me to become a junior dev after 3 months

Btw, here in Denmark almost every internship is unpaid

[buoyant seal]

It sounds fair enough to me then. 3 months is nothing

Decide for yourself if u can afford low money until then
And whom u wish to be in your career

Highly suspecting this book will cover a lot of your BA

[near remnant]

I have a lot of money saved up so it wouldn't be a problem

[buoyant seal]

Decide if u wish to be in tech role, or not tech role/ more managing, soft skills one

[near remnant]

Thanks mate, you've been always really helpful

The stack would be Python, Django, PostgreSQL, Docker, Angular, AWS, Flask

[gilded valley]

Hmmmmmm

[gilded valley]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[short solstice]

Im 13, how should I start programming to become a software engineer/developer

[near ocean]

you could learn a couple of languages and the basics in computer science, I would start with Automate the Boring stuff
you could also ask for more details in #python-discussion

[inner wren]

Hey @eternal sinew!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[eternal sinew]

https://www.linkedin.com/in/abdulaziz-suria-060242228/

Hello everyone, I would like to get some feedback on my overall profile and my resume

Above is my linkedin

This is my resume

[near ocean]

lots of empty space is the first thing i notice, maybe you could cut it down and squeeze the second page into the first one for a 1 page CV?

[rugged magnet]

I wouldn't use this template tbh with you, just use black & white

[near ocean]

multiple column CVs might struggle with automated systems

[rugged magnet]

and make it one page, read it from top to bottom

[eternal sinew]

I have this alternative

[rugged magnet]

exactly.

ATS will have hard time reading some info.

[near ocean]

second one is better, even if its not as pretty
but i would still try to condense it to a single page

[eternal sinew]

but cramming into a single page will make it harder on the eyes

is what I think

Also based on my profile, is the information sufficient enough to display or do I need to show more?
And how should I condense this much information into one, any sample which you may have?

[near remnant]

Sup mate

[near ocean]

it depends on the culture in your country/region, but in the EU and I think US its standard to have a single page CV

[eternal sinew]

I will mostly be applying to the US

so should I remove the links or how should I condense it is what confuses me?

wouldn't it look crammed up heavily?

Also, let me know how my profile is if you look at it, is it good enough or okayish or really bad?

[near ocean]

make the header smaller, cut down on the Skills section, i dont think you need two sections for Academic projects

[near remnant]

Use LaTeX

Overleaf

[eternal sinew]

so I should make it using latex?

[near remnant]

I use this https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs

[eternal sinew]

damn there are a lot of options here

[near remnant]

I get many interviews with this

[near ocean]

i used word, my gf uses overleaf, i think its too much effort but hers looks better

[eternal sinew]

ok great I will try this one and try to make it single columned, black and white and single page ofc

apart from that, based on my metrics how would you judge it?

which information should I display, the info in the first one is better or the second one?

sorry if I m being too specific, but I am open to any kind of criticism

[near remnant]

You only need to do it once

[true harness]

you also need to update it when you want to look for a new job

[near ocean]

gotta keep things updated

[true harness]

speaking of which: is having something like a fast food job better than no work experience on a resume?

[near ocean]

yea but i probably wouldnt put it at the top

i've had unrelated exp on my CV before, but i moved the entire section under Education

[gilded valley]

for a student - emphatically yes

[near remnant]

How many rejections did u get before landing your job?

[near ocean]

Do we count the appls we sent out and never heard back from?

[peak halo]

I put Starbucks on my resume, but I only included the start and end dates (and that I got employee of the quarter), so that employers would know that I was working during school. Now that I have a job in industry, I deleted it.

[near remnant]

I mean where u had interviews

[near ocean]

None lol, im 2/2 so far

[near remnant]

Thats weird

[near ocean]

My struggle is getting to the technical part

[near remnant]

Ah i see

[near ocean]

Probably something to do with my CV

[near remnant]

Ive got invited to a technical interview, I would need to code with screenshare for an hour, i think i pass

Dont have the mindset for an interview like this at the moment

[near ocean]

My most recent one was 3h, had to be sneaky during work hours

[near remnant]

Thats insane, but its a junior job, think they overdo it a bit

[lime tartan]

Any business analysts in chat?

[near ocean]

it wasnt that bad actually, the team was chill, all smiles and jokes

[near remnant]

Im not one but received an offer for BA role, why?

[lime tartan]

I wanted to focus my efforts on transitioning into BA so I'm kinda looking for advice

[near remnant]

BA roles most of the times don't include programming. Just to be aware. Why do you want to become a business analyst?

[lime tartan]

That's fine. I'm more into data analytics in a business setting than of anything. I'm currently a chemist and I frequently find myself thrilled when I get to do data analysis. Also I grew up in a business focused household so I'm always finding myself liking that stuff

[near remnant]

Oh I see. Well, business analytics is really about communication.

[lime tartan]

To what extent? Like presentations and such?

[near remnant]

Yeah

[lime tartan]

That's not a problem, I kinda enjoy public speaking

[idle vine]

How much is involved in selling novel software tech to a big tech company? Like a new machine learning model or something that can be easily demonstrated?

[near ocean]

that sounds virtually impossible

[sudden quiver]

hi

[plush spindle]

Yo

[cedar cedar]

can someone help me?

[vapid jay]

Are you maybe looking for the Python help channel ? #❓｜how-to-get-help

[bold galleon]

hello

[astral ermine]

Is it a bad time to be applying? Seems a lot of tech companies are laying off workers and many applicants are in general not getting many interviews.

Even offers are getting rescinded

[smoky quest]

What's the alternative?
While the market is cooling off, there are still companies hiring

[gritty rivet]

It's never a bad time to apply for jobs. It's always a bad time to accept a bad offer.

of course, a few months ago was a better time to be looking for jobs then right now is, but you don't have that option.

I suspect it's going to get worse before it gets better

[novel elk]

im 16, how much should i be worrying about creating a portfolio for getting into a good college / getting a good profession in the future

[merry summit]

Quick question;
Let's say I wanted to work for Google or Facebook. I know getting a masters degree in computer science is a given, but I need to know which degree to (double major) with.

Here are the options:
{Cybersecurity}
{Computer information systems}
{Computer information technology}

So Computer science +《 》

[dense mesa]

Why not just CS? And if it has to be a double, it shouldn't make a huge difference

[merry summit]

Looks good on a resume

And for the little extra experience

[true harness]

but why. 2 is not necessarily better than 1. if you're not even particularly passionate about a specific other major, why force yourself to do one

[dense mesa]

Maths + CS is pretty good

[mortal wedge]

Free tip: Don't put gigantic blatant lies on your resume. If it gets caught in the interview, good chance your interviewer will be legit angry.

[true harness]

examples? 👀

[merry summit]

Eh what??

[mortal wedge]

This guy admitted in the interview, when questioned that he had no machine learning experience. His resume said he had "Deep Knowledge" on those topics

[merry summit]

Not really much of a tip

Just don't be an idiot

[dense mesa]

If it's not on there then maybe it's not worth double majoring 😉

[true harness]

having 2 majors isn't necessarily better than 1

[merry summit]

What do you mean if it's not there

[merry summit]

.

[dense mesa]

I said maths and CS is pretty good, but it's not one of the options. So maybe it isn't worth double majoring at all, less is more etc

[merry summit]

It's my personal preference.
And as I said, though the experience is minimal, it looks good on a resume.

[true harness]

sure, but what i'm saying is if you're not actually passionate about both the topics, why do a double major just to do a double major?

sure lol. if you really want to do a double major, why restrict yourself to those topics? undergraduate education is meant to be broad, by only picking from topics that are very related, you're narrowing your focus

also, i kinda doubt the "it looks good on a resume" part. have you talked to people who review resumes? i would think the benefit is not worth the extra work you'd have to do, but then again, i also have no experience with this

[honest pivot]

I think most people will barely notice a double major on a resume. They will mostly care that you've done the topics that are relevant

[mortal wedge]

I might briefly glance at it and be impressed that you have the work ethic to complete it. But it wouldn't strongly impact my overall position. Definitely not worth it JUST for that quick glance.

Deep knowledge of Neural Networks then when I asked him what a Neural Network was he said he had no idea he'd have to go review it.

[near remnant]

Overkill for most dev jobs

But if you love math then go for it

[mortal wedge]

YEah, I hope they've learned something. I didn't intend to, I was really excited to talk to him about some stuff on his resume, but I would up eviscerating him because he couldn't speak to anything listed on it.

Eviscerating is the wrong term, he eviscerated himself

[astral ermine]

I say this as a passive job seeker. The alternative for someone like me might be to slow down the efforts of applying and maybe focus on further sharpening my skills, portfolio, or other things.

[mortal wedge]

When covid first came out and companies put on a hiring freeze is when I really devoted myself to sharpening my programming skills to make me a stronger candidate. It worked out well for me.

[astral ermine]

How did you showcase your progress?
On a portfolio or as experience on a current job?

[mortal wedge]

It was more of something that helped me during interviews, although I did put my course certificates on my linkedin and resume

[astral ermine]

I see, thank you for the info. I sometimes think that yes, studying more is definitely the main thing, but how do I show my progress. I see others are also including their certificates on LinkedIn and Resume.

[gritty rivet]

I'd say it depends how much you've been applying recently and how that's been going. If you haven't given much effort to job applications recently, then it's totally worth giving it a go right now before things get worse. If you've already been trying and you're not getting callbacks then that may be a sign to invest in your skills more.

[gritty rivet]

if you have no relevant work experience, a portfolio of 2-3 good projects is a reasonable minimum target

[astral ermine]

Yeah that's the boat I'm in. Been applying and have only heard back from a couple of recruiters but no real interviews. I think my efforts should go more towards studying more, portfolio, resume, etc., for the the moment.

[gritty rivet]

makes sense

I feel like I often get lucky on the most low-effort job applications though. So yes, focus on studying, but in the meantime there's no harm in sending out resumes

[smoky quest]

You can't predict the future.
Even staying where you are could induce some risk if your position ends up being eliminated.
Given that companies that have frozen hiring or rescinded offers have already done so, I would say that the remaining job ads are the ones they truly want to hire.

[near remnant]

I think, job searching is 90% luck

Networking, etc.

[vapid jay]

Agreed, there is literally 0 downside just explain your situation to them whether they choose to accept you is their doing.

[smoky quest]

It's a process
Luck has a part to play, but if it's having 90% impact on someone's search, they are doing it wrong

[near remnant]

Ive been interviewing every week, 1-2 times. Have no desire to even work on a project, just reading books and watching videos on theory...

[mortal wedge]

I don't know if it helps, but when I was unemployed I spent every other day sharpening my skills and the other days were spent working on the job hunt. Gave myself weekends, still. It's a lot of work!

[near remnant]

U mean leetcode?

[tiny salmon]

the avatar☠️

[mortal wedge]

leetcode is great for doing programming puzzles and the kind of stuff tech companies like to throw at you during screening. Sharpening my skills I took classes on coursera.

Coursera isn't free, but I like that they gave accreditation/certs

Did it make a difference that I had certificates? Who knows, but what I learned has helped me

[delicate bane]

i hope so as well...

im just shocked like...if you put it on your resume, i feel like you should be prepared to talk about it

[delicate bane]

i think this is how i felt 1-2 months ago as well

but here i am

[smoky quest]

There have been quite a few discussions popping up on this channel about whether or not one should lie on their resume. So that's not necessarily a given

[delicate bane]

thats a bruh moment

like

i feel stuff like this contributes to why hiring processes become more involved / lengthier than they need to be

and even then they dont catch everyone who may or may not lie on their resume

[mortal wedge]

If you lie and you get caught on your resume, it's bad. Maybe it's worth the risk to you, but while I continued with the interview my personal decision was made then and there. Lying on your resume is great for getting an interview, but not great for succeeding in one.

[astral ermine]

Yeah, the interviewer will either ask and find out, or you'll underperform on the job.

[gritty rivet]

I had a co-worker who clearly lied to get the job and he lasted less than two weeks... years later, on an almost daily basis, we were still making fun of him and the stupid stuff he did 🤣

[astral ermine]

Lol, hope he got better at least.

[mortal wedge]

This may be controversial, but I understand lying on a resume, but please don't fundamentally misrepresent yourself or your abilities. Because if someone hires you and you wind up being a terrible fit, it blows back on them.

[true harness]

what's the upside? you get more interviews? wouldn't you just get exposed at that stage, though?

[smoky quest]

upside is you may get a chance to succeed if you can handle the gap. But I would also add that people get the coworkers they deserve

[polar forge]

Have a similar fear whether the tech industry's oversaturated or not.

Considering the amount of 'ML', 'AI' and similar concepts being brought up in conversation, dk if such topics are just hyped or genuinely oversaturated.

Eh, ig it's kind of relevant to data science but can't say for sure.

[dense mesa]

It's never the people working in tech who say it's oversaturated 🤔

[polar forge]

Hmm.

[smoky quest]

It's a revolution. It's going into every single field.
There are tons of candidates, but not so many good candidates

[polar forge]

ic, that's understandable.

[eternal sinew]

any feedback on this single page resume?

@near ocean @near remnant How about this now?

[near remnant]

I use this template as well, in latex, really good.

But i wouldn't list those certs

Like from coursera

[lyric fiber]

does anyone know stuff about bioinformatics? I would be interested in your experience I'm new to the server, and new to coding, currently a biochem major. Thanks!

[true harness]

check your caps. JAVA is strange, TKInter is strange, you have "Programming Languages" but "Technical skills"

[eternal sinew]

@true harness so should I remove technical skills?

[true harness]

I'm just talking about capitalization, whether you keep it, idk

[smoky quest]

• I assume you will fix the links
• Your projects could benefit from a year or something to indicate if they are finished or in progress
• Your internships could benefit from more details. I can't really tell what was your contribution
• Any quantification of your impact would be awesome

[eternal sinew]

Oh okay got it, thanks

[delicate bane]

this 100%

there are def businesses that could use ML or data in general for their use cases but not every problem is an ML problem however, so theres that component as well

data, however, usually benefits a process overall

(see DS hierarchy of needs)

[eternal sinew]

Yeah the links work properly in the pdf format.
As I couldn't upload pdf,I just converted it to png

All of the projects mentioned are finished.
But I will mention the date then

Does the first internship of softmax AI also lack the details?
Those bullet points are the things I actually did.
I can elaborate more on the second one ig

Quantification of impact?
Any example?

[true harness]

"made x better by y%", "did x to change y by z%"

[smoky quest]

or even a basic "Deployed X to handle 1000 req/s"

[eternal sinew]

Ok so the bullet points should contain information like that

Sorry for being this stupid, I will fix this up
Thanks!

I m also going to apply for some non-work on-campus jobs
Any samples for that or preferred format for that would be helpful if anyone can suggest

[smoky quest]

Make them sound a bit more sexy. They aren't selling much.
As a reviewer, I see for your latest internship 4 very different projects in the sapce of 6months. That makes me wonder how far you got and what you actually did.

Try to think about the things that you are proud of

[eternal sinew]

Oh wait those projects are personal projects, they aren't part of the internship

[smoky quest]

I am referring to "Machine Learning Intern"

[true harness]

is the Link: necessary? seems to just add clutter

[eternal sinew]

Well the company was service based so I was given many different projects.
One of them was to detect floors and replace them with tiles of user's choice

Other was to predict the sentiment of the user based on the drug and its quantity taken

There was this stock market price prediction with lstms too but I couldn't go for more than 60% score so I had to leave that in between

And some many minor minor tasks of nlp and cv

Also had to setup the frontend backend with flask for almost every project

So should I mention things like these?

[eternal sinew]

And how can I make this sexy?

[eternal sinew]

What should I mention there then?
If I keep it empty it won't be obvious that its a link is what i think

[true harness]

can't you add underlines or something

[eternal sinew]

Ok will go for it then

[smoky quest]

What's your claim to fame there?

[pulsar drum]

What about just using hyperlinks?

[eternal sinew]

Sorry but I still can't think of anything like that.
Any example?

[pulsar drum]

"reduced process time by x minutes", "saved company x amount of money", "reduced faults by x%", stuff like that

[smoky quest]

"data modeling for sentiment analysis" -> why would I care about that?

It's super lightweight and doesn't mean much more than "I did some things". That's not very exciting and would not entice me to call you back

[eternal sinew]

Oh okay yeah too generic and not at all specific

Ok let me make these changes and get back to you

[fallow wigeon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V5QsuhN-5k it is a very good video, i recommend you

[balmy spade]

This doesn't appear to be on topic for this room.

[fallow wigeon]

yes sorry for that

[smoky quest]

so what's the point?

[fallow wigeon]

I didn't want to throw it here

[smoky quest]

Another way to look at is it to ask yourself: "Why would the interviewer be impressed by it?"
And in that sense, why would I be impressed by the fact you worked on data modeling for sentiment analysis?

[fallow wigeon]

this is a short movie, not python related. 🙂

[smoky quest]

so why spamming ?

[fallow wigeon]

but i will be glad if you watch it too

[fallow wigeon]

No, I didn't want to do that

[smoky quest]

I downvote all the spam videos, and that includes that one.

[fallow wigeon]

i m not trol dude 🙂

[fallow wigeon]

I suggest you watch

[smoky quest]

I suggest you drop it. Spamming a channel and then doubling down to tell people to watch it will only result in moderators being called in

[fallow wigeon]

you're right, that wasn't what I meant, sorry

[green tide]

By the way it is illegal (Canada and the Us) to not be paid on internship.

[livid moat]

thank 👌

[astral ermine]

@smoky quest Since last I posted my resume for feedback, I have implemented your suggestions and others. I definitely feel the resume is stronger now and represents me as a better candidate overall. Thank you.

[jagged glade]

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/71-flsa-internships
https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/15161-are-unpaid-internships-legal.html
dunno about canada, but not all unpaid internships are per se illegal in the US - just most of them.

[delicate bane]

there are also nonprofit orgs or orgs that fall under 501 tax exempt status where unpaid internships arent illegal

if you choose to do one of those however, you should care about the cause; otherwise its a waste of time for everyone involved

[jagged glade]

very true (from footnote 1 of DOL link):

Unpaid internships for public sector and non-profit charitable organizations, where the intern volunteers without expectation of compensation, are generally permissible.

[delicate bane]

i did an unpaid internship with one such org and found it very valuable for my situation

[astral ermine]

I've seen job listings where it's actually them training you, you pay them, and then they might even keep a % of your salary after you get employed

[delicate bane]

i also cared about the cause so theres that

[smoky quest]

Given the sole purpose of an internship is to primarily profit to the student, that would make most of them legal

Not doing so would just be disguised labor (which is what these laws are trying to prevent)

[amber trout]

Hi :'D
someone who works as a data analyst or a social listener, who can tell me about their experience?

[near remnant]

I understand you guys against unpaid internship, because most of you are from the US and have insane loans. But here in Europe, its different.

No one actually forces anyone to do unpaid internship

Its totally up to the person.

[meager tinsel]

free education

hole europa is smarter than aerica

[gleaming hare]

Hello

[vital spear]

wait unpaid internships are legal in the EU?

[eternal sinew]

@smoky quest How about now?
links prolly won't work on image cos of direct conversion but what's your take on everything else?

Also, feel free to criticise any personal caveats of mine, like if I haven't done anything good enough to put out or anything like that

[near remnant]

Its really common in many countries in Europe

[eternal sinew]

oh okay so the same approach which is used in the experience section you mean

Apart from that any advice or suggestions?

@chrome hamlet not so heavily driven but this is what I could think of😅

[peak halo]

@eternal sinew I deleted the image of your resume, as you didn't remove your phone number.

[jolly spruce]

anyone here know much about web3 ?

[peak halo]

don't ask to ask, or ask if there are experts on the topic of a question that you haven't actually asked. but this is the career discussion question, so your actual question probably belongs in #web-development

[buoyant seal]

I highly suspect web3 is not a real thing to begin with.
No one knows what it is

[jolly spruce]

im looking to connect to a website that is web3 and requires a wallet to connect to

[tall tartan]

How long did you guys grind leetcode until you could consistently do the mediums?

[torpid belfry]

it gets better:

[buoyant seal]

it depends on your character / atitude and also currently available skills.
in the worst combination it is 100% stress (no skills what to do, and atitude to stress over it, and no chacter to ask for help/discuss the problem)
in the best combination, it is stress that is easily overcome once you remember a proper procedure to approach current problem.
but even if you have all the skills, there is still always a chance you encounter a situation you could not have estimated, which could be a disaster to fail everything.
but you know, you can learn to approach any disaster with calm head

So in conclusion it depends on your character/attitude and available skills/experience.

ad middle/senior rank devs usually know when they should do it on their own, and when they need to ask for additional information or help, as it is situation outside of their grasp / or it would achieve better time efficiency for all the team

and knowing that, allows to be pretty much calm and keeping to work

but if they are like SRE, and reliability of a service depends on them, it could involve much more amount of disasters as they need to control the risks of service failure
but actually software developers are part of this risk control, so kind of no point to distinguish SRE here.

soo... some risks can be mitigated if you make backups and easy rollback of the services/app to the previous versions, after that you can just calmly fixing your problems
also you get more confidence if you have a good testing coverage, and not smelling any bad code smells xD

it is kind of... a task to find a golden balance, between involed amount of effort, and getting the requred amount of confidence that everything is all right, and also matching it with the necessary level of reliability in requirements. If everything is matching, then all is great, even if it fails sometimes

So, short story told: For beginners it can be super stressful, for experienced it becomes a regular workflow to handle disasters with calculated approach

but at the same time situation can become worse depending on the domain... i heard in game development it is much more stresful. And just it can be different base on the company of people you are in.

too many factors basically to consider if you are going to have it stressful or not

[delicate bane]

nah not everyone is against unpaid internships. i told you i did one.

[near remnant]

Oh i didnt know mate

[delicate bane]

yep yep. it was a good experience

[near remnant]

Coffee is good

[delicate bane]

always

[delicate bane]

in a perfect world. i heard sometimes, depending on the company, when there is a disaster, there can be a lot of finger-pointing and blaming others rather than fixing the problem calmly

i hope i never am at a company where there is such a culture

[buoyant seal]

Mm yeah. There is a need for no blame policy in order for SRE to go well. But human factor obviously is resilient to such changes

[delicate bane]

"blameless postmortem" yeah

until you get blamed and fired

tbh you wouldnt want to work for a company where the culture is super toxic like that anyway

[buoyant seal]

So, there is no point to regret firing then
Except for next time better evaluating company during trial period
Trial period flows in both directions

[delicate bane]

"how does your company handle disasters"

jk

[buoyant seal]

U know... I am actually tempted to add it to my interview questions:

"If your developer broke production, what would u do?"

[delicate bane]

another way of phrasing could be "do you have procedures in place if production breaks?"

and if they say no...

[buoyant seal]

First question do u have QA

Second, If developer made a serious mistake, that was not noticed by QA, who would be to blame?
The developer, QA, or person who deployed it to production?

Basically trying to obscure question a bit

[near remnant]

CI/CD 😎

[buoyant seal]

Out of fun we could increase the chain of people in order to complete the question, adding also software architect and client to the chain of involved people

[delicate bane]

First question do u have QA
bro what if they dont have QA

[vapid jay]

Then the answer to the question is no.

Simple as that. This generation needs to use its last 2 braincells.

[buoyant seal]

We can ask second question without QA
Client -> software architect -> developer > person to Deploy

And then we can remove nodes one by one and repeating question with less people involved

To see how their answer would be changing

And then we should ask which rank they have in the company xD

And also asking if other present people in interview agree with opinion of other person

Hehe. That is going to be my favourite question now

[delicate bane]

bro... thats not even what this is about

obviously the answer is no. the underlying question is whether you walk away right there or dig deeper duh

[delicate bane]

[delicate bane]

inb4 its only the person interviewing you thats left and turns out to be a startup

jk you should probably find that type of info out before sitting down for an interview

bc otherwise....

💀

[near ocean]

Did this insult just come out of nowhere or am i missing context here?
If they dont have QA, why dont they have QA?

[vapid jay]

Loaded question.

[near ocean]

which part is loaded

[vapid jay]

!code

print

[near ocean]

if you're not going to elaborate, the least you could do is not try to insult people

[ivory sluice]

!ban 918954563858468898 you've been told many times before not to be rude. if you think this community is pathetic there are other places where you can invest your time and energy so that you don't waste ours

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @uneven pumice permanently.

[near remnant]

I had an interview this week, they asked if I could work on my PC. I said yes but I think working on a company laptop, would be more secure. They told me they will buy a new laptop for me. Lmao💀

[ivory sluice]

hmmmm. do they not have the $?

[near remnant]

They do just they are in a different country so I guess sending a laptop is a bit more complicated. But yeah, kinda weird tbh.

[buoyant seal]

Imagine beraucracy delay even if they are in your town

[near ocean]

They will probably give you credit to buy gear with yourself, from wherever you live. That would also take care of shipping delays and other fees.
Remember to buy an extra monitor.

[near remnant]

Its weird, since the company is rich as f

But at least they wanna buy me a laptop lmao

[balmy spade]

I surprises me how often others are willing to use their own equipment for work profiles. The company I work for insisted I have specific apps installed on my phone which required building a work profile on the device. The amount of "we'll have to figure out how to do that" which came from my insistence on a company phone was crazy.

[near remnant]

Hope I was not stupid telling them that I would rather use a company laptop for security

[balmy spade]

No, I don't think that is stupid at all.

[near ocean]

My company actually insists they buy you all the gear you need to do your work, which say you could also use for personal use

But we handle private and confidential data, so maybe thats why

[honest pivot]

Yeah, I will absolutely not install any company stuff on my personal devices. Some colleagues installed slack on their phones and I think they're crazy

[gritty rivet]

Carrying around two phones so you don't have to install slack in your personal is crazy to me 😂

[near ocean]

its not just slack most of the time, its whatever email client they use, company apps (in my case prod, preprod, demo), microsoft portal, authenticator and a whole bunch of other shit like mdm policies and whatnot

[balmy spade]

Exactly. It's really about how much of my personal property that I allow the company I work for to have a stake in. The employment contracts often broadly cover things like this with statements around "anything company IP is viewed, stored, accessed". Just so that I never have to deal with the noise, I keep a firm line between work and personal devices.

[vast shoal]

I can see why you would want to keep a separate company phone, but I just can't be bothered with carrying two phones

I see the upsides, but I just don't want two phones in my pocket.

[balmy spade]

It was a bit of a juggling act while I was in office, that's for sure. Now that I'm remote it's so much easier. The work device never really leaves the desk. xD

[near ocean]

i wouldnt mind using the company phone as my personal phone and have a spare at home, but im not installing anything on the one device i have

[honest pivot]

Nah, I don't have two phones. I'm simply not available on slack unless I've got my work laptop open

[gritty rivet]

That's good... I think if I didn't need to be reachable for production issues I'd prefer to be that way

[twin cloud]

Hey

[smoky quest]

That's why there is pagerduty and victorops.
Having a chat app does not guarantee they will be able to get your attention

[vapid jay]

can one learn python just by reading its official docs?

[digital fjord]

no

[coarse crag]

yes but wouldn't that be alot harder to comprehend than learning from guided step by step course/book/tutorials? it depends on your learning preference and level of expertise. but i'd imagine it to be hard if you knew nothing at all and goes straight into learning from the docs. the developers from this server recommend "automate the boring stuff with python"

[digital fjord]

you need to write a lot of python code to learn python, no amount of reading will replace that

[coarse crag]

oh right, i didn't realize he only wrote "reading"

[smoky quest]

(also not the topic of this channel :p )

[carmine ether]

@near ocean that would take the fun out of chatting here...

[craggy pumice]

real python docs are well curated

[delicate bane]

thanks. i felt like i was attacked for no reason lol

[delicate bane]

oof yeah...thats...i wouldnt like that

[agile turtle]

Guys is it possible for a complete beginner to find some work

Also how do I find a good boot camp

[gilded valley]

not really, no

[vast shoal]

Programming is a skilled profession, you need training in order to be able to do it.

[gritty rivet]

I did the Nucamp Backend program and found a good job immediately. But I studied the basics a long time on my own beforehand. I recommend learning the basics first and if not plan to keep studying a while afterwards

If you want to do full stack JavaScript there are lots of other options. But if you want to stick to backend Python the only other option I'm aware of besides Nucamp is Coding Dojo

[vast shoal]

You don't necessarily need formal education, but you need something comparable.

[balmy spade]

Define "find work"? Everyone is a beginner once and most find work. It might not be programming out of the gate but there are tons of roles in technology that open doors.

[fickle sonnet]

What if I just want to make some extra cash while coding and learning

[delicate bane]

this one looks interesting

[gritty rivet]

You can try platforms like Upwork but there's so much competition it can be difficult to get started

[fickle sonnet]

Makes sense

What languages should I learn if I want to be a software developer btw

Rn I'm learning Phython 3 cause it's on my GCSE course and it's easy to start with

What ones should I learn for that career path

[summer roost]

depends on what type of software development you want to do, but common languages are JavaScript, TypeScript, HTML, and CSS (for frontend web dev) and C, C++, Java, C#, and shell for backend apps.

[gritty rivet]

You should pursue whatever interests you later, I would say focus on learning Python well first... But yes, what godlygeek said

[summer roost]

if you're interested in higher level stuff like mobile apps, JavaScript would be a good second language after Python. If you're interested in lower level stuff like operating systems or security, C makes a pretty good second language.

[fickle sonnet]

I would think app development or security are interesting

[buoyant seal]

What? Mobile Apps are Java/Kotlyn or Swift depending on the OS?

Javascript with stuff like React Native is sort of possible though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo3cL4nrGOk

[buoyant seal]

Shell script is not for backend apps ;b Shell script is for scripts only, and still better to use Python instead of shell even for that

[vapid jay]

Im starting to second-guess the study I'm going to do. Im currently enrolled in a computer science study which will start at the first of september. It will go over lots of different languages and set a good foundation. Yet I've always been interested in AI. Ive now found a study called Applied Data Science & Artificial Intelligence which is more in-depth about AI.

What should I do? Do I change my study or just do the first year of my already enrolled study and then decide?

You mean minors?

[summer roost]

whether shell is the right or wrong language to use on the backend, backend devs tend to see a non-trivial amount of shell. And there are a lot of things that shell is better at than Python - pipelining multiple commands together is possible with subprocess, but much, much easier with shell.

[vapid jay]

Yes, that would be a minor in my country.

[rough island]

I would stick with the computer science course, you can always study AI later if you are interested in it

[buoyant seal]

Lets say that One line commands are better with shell then due to easy pipelining (except when needed dealing with JSON, I will prefer insert python here into oneline too)
But Code written scripts are better in Python (Yay for Argparse and Click)

[vapid jay]

Computer science would offer: Security Lab, Data science and Data engineering while the other doesn't have any since it's a new Study. Not a lot of information is there about it.

[vapid jay]

I'd have to study for 8 years.

[summer roost]

fair enough. I realized I said "higher level stuff" without explaining what I meant by "higher level", and then edited an example in to try to make it make more sense to a beginner, and my example didn't fit well with the languages I listed. I was thinking of web apps when I listed the languages, and said mobile apps when I tried to explain what I meant by "high level"

[vapid jay]

Isn't that a lot?

[graceful mason]

Might also want to check what language the unis you look at use. Java is a common one for OOP

[summer roost]

I don't think it would be a minor - in US terms, it would be a track or a specialization or a focus

[vapid jay]

Oh.

I live in the netherlands.

Both studies are 4 years.

How long would it take then?

No, a bachelor does

[summer roost]

I don't know what it would be called in the Netherlands, but I doubt it's a minor. A minor is usually when you take courses that would normally be exclusive to another major, and the school certifies that you learned some of what they would teach to someone majoring in that other subject. A concentration is when the school gives you multiple options within your major of things to focus on, and you pick one of those tracks for your focus.

[gilded valley]

Bash with Shellcheck is completely fine for scripting

[buoyant seal]

my problem with Bash that is unbelievably unreadable. Python for the win for scripting. Argparse is better ;b

[summer roost]

whether Bash is a good or bad scripting language isn't really on topic for this channel. Regardless of its strengths and weaknesses, it is common to see it used, and it's a helpful language for a backend dev to be able to read.

[buoyant seal]

Resistance is futile, everything is a flood channel.
I disagree with opinion that it is needed just because commonly used. Jenkins is commonly used too everywhere, but it is outdated bad tool that should be replaced with newer generation Yaml only CI tools which encourage repository CI code being fully present in a repository. As it provides having all code present without hidden settings, and more readable

[summer roost]

I didn't say it's needed. I said it's a helpful language to know.

[buoyant seal]

i can fully agree with it for sure.

[rustic schooner]

Hi I understand your doubts. Just some things to keep in mind; studying computer science as a bachelor (usually 3 years) wont stop you from studying AI/Data as a masters (usually 2 years). I think its actually a common route to take. Apart from that cs bachelors often offer different tracks/subjects, usually atleasr 1 being data/ai related, TU Delft (dutch uni) for example offers a data track. So no matter the study you choose Im sure youd be able to pursue AI, one might just be a little more focussed. If youre still very in doubt Id recommend reaching out to the study advisors of your (future) study and talking with them about your options, Im sure theyd love to help you out.

[vast shoal]

I hate bash syntax as well, but unlike Python it's always available

So I just bite the bullet and use it

I do prefer to write my scripts in Python if I can

[buoyant seal]

in the worst case, we can compile python to binary in order to use where it is not available though. Simple binary compiling is easy enough operation, and can be part of multi staged docker building

[true harness]

just use powershell then

[buoyant seal]

python is having TWO inbuilt libraries for testing. What else to desire for SAFE script writing xD

[vast shoal]

I mean more like in an environment that I don't have admin control over

[gilded valley]

Reading Bash is a very valuable skill to learn because you are certainly going to come across it at some point during your career. It's a valuable skill to be able to write because it is the chosen scripting language for many teams. It's also a perfectly good tool for scripting precisely because it has such a low overhead for getting it running on pretty much anything - any random VM and many serverless things have problems which can be solved in 4 lines of bash, being able to be the one guy on the team who can crack out those 4 lines of bash is very useful. And often, a python equivalent script will just be those same 4 lines but with much more overhead to get it actually running on the underlying system.

[vast shoal]

Yeah, pretty much

It sucks, but it's ubiquitous

Might as well learn it

[buoyant seal]

The problem is, besides readability problems in general in bash, if you are using stuff like Argparse, you are having your script quite intensively documented as a code for all input values. Therefore maintenance is going to be much easier in python, and remembering/reading what this code is doing later. Better to make life easier in advance.

[gilded valley]

with shellcheck it's not even particularly unpleasant to write - but it never gets fun to read

[gilded valley]

I agree that if you have some long orchestration script or a CLI tool, then there's a good chance Bash isn't the best choice

[vapid jay]

hire me or i hack u

lol. they wanna see my certs before they hire me. what if i just hack them? is that good enough?

[smoky quest]

you would get sued

[vapid jay]

i got nothing, have fun

[onyx hemlock]

There are ways to get a job as a penetration tester.

[vapid jay]

thats exactly what i want, i am listening

[true harness]

chances are the hacking is illegal, too

[onyx hemlock]

I forget what it's called. There is a website where companies post their code/environments and you can legally hack it.

[smoky quest]

it also demonstrates a huge gap in maturity, which could put at risk the company and their client

[onyx hemlock]

Then submit a bug report

[smoky quest]

There is hackerone

But it's less of a recruiting tool and more of a bug bounty

[onyx hemlock]

Ye

[vapid jay]

agreed

i can clench my butt cheeks tight and wear a suit. "yes, sir... right away sir" -- see i've been practicing

[onyx hemlock]

You don't need to wear suits in zoom calls.

[smoky quest]

or outside of them either

[vast shoal]

Cybercrime are often criminal violations, so you can go to prison even if you don't have anything.

[vapid jay]

i do not condone any illegal hacking

some software development companys have coders take a test and if they pass the coding test they get hired. it would be the same kind of thing

it shows your true skills, certs show knowledge not necessarily that you've put it into practice

[smoky quest]

technical interviews are pretty much expected for tech jobs

[onyx hemlock]

I got hired without any certs, degrees, hacking, or answering any interview questions. I just made a good resume and applied to 1000 companies.

No company that gave me a tech interview hired me, lol. The ones that did just had a conversation with me.

[vapid jay]

i know i am not the smartest. i am mouldablethough. i don't want to waste years of my life being trained on something redundant. looking for someone highly skilled to learn from so that years of my life don't go to waste

[smoky quest]

why would you be trained on something redundant?

[onyx hemlock]

Learn Node. It will never go away.

None of it really goes away,lol.

[vapid jay]

i am doing that, there is a compendium of knowledge regarding computers, networking, and security. not something you can learn overnight, let alone a year

[onyx hemlock]

It's never ending knowledge.

[smoky quest]

if you are in HS or college age, then go for a CS degree and have projects on the side. That will give you a solid combination of theory and practice and open up the door to most opportunities

[onyx hemlock]

Yeah. Learning the basics of algorithms and data structures and beyond in college is invaluable.

[vapid jay]

maybe this will give you an idea of my age. the first computer game i played was qbasic gorrilas on DOS

loved duke nukem

[onyx hemlock]

How much coding have you done?

[vapid jay]

i know the basics of a lot of languages

[true harness]

that sounds useless. why not just get good at a few languages

[vapid jay]

i love encouragement, thanks

[onyx hemlock]

Is there a project that keeps you motivated?

[vapid jay]

yes, learning pentesting

currently building a router/firewall/IDS

waiting for a few parts. then i plan to build my own server.

edited java scripts for runescape bots, after looking at the code long enough was able to write my own from scratch

did the same thing for another game in perl

[onyx hemlock]

That sounds cool. There are lots of fun Linux tools to practice testing your infrastructure with.

Have you used docker?

[vapid jay]

i've played around with it. i know the basics

jack of all trades, master of none

[onyx hemlock]

Sounds like you are on a good track.

It is actually not a bad idea to put a lot of things on your resume.

You never know what a company will want.

Before I got a job I put react on my resume when I only had done a couple basic tutorials.

I got a job doing React and learned on the job😅

[vapid jay]

in the tech world, there are what i call "the tech bros" it's like the the bros at the gym that make fun of that fat people trying to work out and improve themselves. except the tech bros make fun of the noobs that don't know much about tech and call them useless

[onyx hemlock]

I think I will always feel like a noob.

That's the true goal, lol.

[smoky quest]

sounds more like gatekeeping than tech bros in the colloquial sense

(both are bad regardless)

[ripe linden]

Gatekeeping is a big part of tech bros’ character. But there is gatekeeping all around tech so ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[vapid jay]

gatekeeping , meaing only teaching certain people advanced ways to use a computer?

[onyx hemlock]

Gatekeeping might exist. But it's certainly avoidable. Networking is always going to be important.

[vapid jay]

read a script at a help desk for years until i retire, then i will teach you gatekeeping methods and you can pass it down when you are done milking the top level position

thats why people hack banks and do credit card fraud

[onyx hemlock]

Maybe, but I heard crime don't pay so well.

That's why you are here I assume. But maybe you are just trawling.

[vapid jay]

have to be smarter than government trained people with access to vast resources

makes me WANNACRY

[vapid jay]

just doing it for the lulz

[balmy spade]

Sounds pretty shitty, imo. Gatekeeping is a crappy habit of those that feel threatened and/or insecure in their own knowledge. It has no place here what-so-ever.

[onyx hemlock]

The code jam here is a great way to learn.

These jams are what brought me from working on personal projects to learning how to work on a team.

[onyx hemlock]

The code jams would be the best way to learn from someone, imo.

[vapid jay]

i would prefer working with someone in person, i would learn much faster that way

the exchange of energy between people is much different in person than through text, over the phone, or use of technology