career-advice

[smoky quest]

Have you brought all these results to your boss?

[mortal wedge]

Yes

He said he'd talk to him, but he's also the boss's favorite

[smoky quest]

did you ask for the action items?

Like your boss wanted to try fostering that rivalry and now the intern is getting out of control. Now, what's the plan, boss?

[mortal wedge]

Well, when this happened months ago, the result was having all these collaborate meetings/review processes by someone that wasn't me, even though I was the senior

When I brought it up now he just said he would talk to him, that was it

[merry pond]

ok thanks

[smoky quest]

The intern is basically harassing you at this point. I would push hard on your boss for something more than "gonna talk to him".

That type of situation requires more than a talk

[merry pond]

how granulated do you write down the skills? E.g. if the jobs talks about PyTorch or STL in C++, I would add that but if it just says "python is a plus" I'd just write down python? Like in my CV I have a section that just lists skills/languages etc. Is that bad?

[smoky quest]

As detailed as needed.
Think about someone who does not know you reading your resume. For a specific job application, how much would they care to know about X?

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, if you wanted to go above and beyond, if the job is about X and they say python is a plus, what tools in python would help you do X? If you have famiilarity with those tools, may as well list them

Like if I was applying for a datascientist role and they said python is a plus, I'd add in that I was familiar with matplotlib, pandas, etc

[mortal wedge]

I think I agree with you. I'm just non-confrontational by nature and really hate this

[smoky quest]

you have to stand up for yourself.
Think about it like a bug in the system, except it's a human bug in nature and the bug is in the org

[merry pond]

ok thanks - so do you think a CV should be 1 page?

[mortal wedge]

That sounds like a good idea, but I have no idea how to strike the balance between pushing them under the bus and covering up for them. Any ideas?

I can't even say something like "without naming names, a developer pushed a last minute change that broke everything" because there's only two developers who work on our analytics, lol

[smoky quest]

Just say the second part "a last minute change was pushed that broke everything". Basically, being blameless.
If I was to push that thought experiment all the way, this would come up: "how can we prevent this from happening again? How to prevent unsafe changes from going through?"

That comes down to focusing on the what and not the who

[mortal wedge]

If I was in that meeting, I'd say "why did this happen? We have all these processes in place", or at leastI'd be thinking that

But that's a good idea. I'll present it as, I ran my validation and saw that a last minute change was throwing up warnings

"So we're here to discuss that change"

[smoky quest]

then you may need more process. Processes aren't there to ensure the best quality. Processes are there to set the minimum bar for the quality

[mortal wedge]

I mean, we don't need more processes. We need this one developer to be fired follow them

[smoky quest]

There aren't too many solutions here. Either you can trust the developers (or work towards it) and have more freedom and trust and less process. Or you can't trust the developers and thus can't provide as much freedom and increase processes and guardrails

Not doing either would be a recipe for this to happen again

[mortal wedge]

The processes need teeth and enforcement

[smoky quest]

that's the result of the leadership of your manager

[mortal wedge]

Yeah.

Unfortunately, I think he's more of a happy times manager than a manager manager

[smoky quest]

do you have skip level 1-1?

[mortal wedge]

Nope.

Those sound like good ideas

[smoky quest]

there is a risk your manager takes it as you going around them and throwing them under the bus. But if you phrase things in ways where the director comes to that conclusion without you saying it explicitly, that could pass

But regardless, if the junior harasses you again for any reason, do report them. Don't let them act out

[mortal wedge]

Okay

Thankfully it's common knowledge/course that I record all of these meetings

[smoky quest]

ianal, but it depends on the country, state and how it relates to the company, since companies can typically record anything about the work activities of their employees.
In general, announcing it at the beginning is good practice

Even screenshots from slack can go a long way too

[mortal wedge]

YEah, Zoom has a blurb whenever anyone joins informing them that the meeting is being recorded. Still possible to forget, ofc

But ever since someone complained that they didn't have a say in the meeting after they missed meetings for a week and a half, I have been recording them and providing them to people who missed, lol

[summer roost]

A résumé should be one page, but CVs are often much longer. Google is telling me that Switzerland uses CVs, and that the normal length for someone relatively junior would be 2 pages

[summer roost]

Perhaps there should be automated enforcement of those policies. At my job, for instance, a code change cannot be merged until it has been code reviewed and it passes the project's test suite (or an admin overrides those checks and approves it).

You might find "five why's" root cause analysis to be useful here for pointing you at solvable problems here.

[honest pivot]

I think the trend is toward shorter CVs, even if you might be more senior, except possibly in academia where some institutions really want to know every single conference you've talked at, etc. I once received a CV which included a table of contents page :\

[summer roost]

IME a (non academia) CV is usually 2 to 3 pages, and a résumé is usually 1 page and absolutely no more than 2.

But this is definitely something that can vary from culture to culture and country to country

[honest pivot]

yes, I agree. I think a CV could reach 4 pages in some circumstances. Even in academia, I don't think it should be more than that. Usually things like a publications list are supplementary material.

People in Europe put a lot more things on a CV than you would ever expect on a resume, such as a photo, a date of birth, country of citizenship, marriage status, high school grades. Note that not everyone does this, and I think all of these items are either not appropriate for a job interview (and possibly illegal to ask), or not relevant.

(I don't put anything like this on mine!)

[summer roost]

In the US, including some of those things will just get your application tossed out automatically.

Giving them information in your application that they're not legally allowed to use as part of any hiring decisions is a very bad move.

[honest pivot]

yes, also agree

[delicate bane]

academic CV

[merry pond]

I didn't put any "highschool stuff" on there, no personal information like marriage status nor a picture. Seems like useless clutter.

[polar marlin]

I am finding senior python deveoper

where I can find top skill developer

[jagged glade]

the channel description has links to python job-seeking and job-recruiting websites

[summer roost]

Google is telling me that Swiss CVs usually have a picture, but I'm not an expert here. Do some research on what the conventions are in the country that you're applying for jobs in, and follow those conventions

[near ocean]

Reminds me of this one time a guy came in for a guest lecture at uni, we were given his cv with the extra reading material
17 pages long

[smoky quest]

that's called a biography

[delicate bane]

[stuck helm]

What is he passing around a brag sheet for

[brazen trail]

in academia it's pretty standard--at least in the US--to have a long-form CV with details of projects and publications, I've seen CVs that were over 100 pages

[tidal niche]

i have a question, is it possible to apply to a remote internship from USA / EU, being from latinoamerica and yea if i get the contract, there s no problem usually with the university and company to make the contract thing?, i m finishing my 3rd year of studies and i am interested in improve my skills everyday, and i want to find a nice internship and i think usually the offers in my country aren't really that good, just in case i have knowledge in linux (doing rn a red hat certifcation), and i m learning data analyst/science with python, and i have experience with java and js.

[peak halo]

there are laws about who those companies can hire. If you're currently outside the US and are not in the process of immigrating, I don't think you can get US work authorization.

[whole wasp]

My contract says it’s at will and then it says “ we request u give us X amount of days notice which can be waived or shortened” since it says request does that mean if I don’t follow X days they can sue me still?

[peak halo]

don't take legal advice from a random person on the internet, but if it's "at will", then they can't legally retaliate against you for leaving that employment, at any time.

[whole wasp]

So what does it mean we request x amount of days after that

[peak halo]

it means they're asking you nicely to give them notice if you want to leave, to give them time to prepare for what they'll do without you. you're not required to do this, though they might not want to rehire you if you ever want to come back. and they might not give you a good reference.

[whole wasp]

For references I can use older Jobs. So if I don’t follow it they can’t sue me right? Cuz in the handbook it says it’s at will unless it says something else in the offer letter and signed by president which mine is.

[peak halo]

so is it at will, or not?

[whole wasp]

I told u what it says idk tbh

[peak halo]

I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what your offer letter says. and if it's this important, you should probably find a lawyer. but "at will" means (informally) that you can leave at any time, and they can fire you at any time.

[whole wasp]

Ya but the request part after confuses me

[peak halo]

if you put the exact wording of the offer letter in the chat, maybe someone can comment. but if you're worried about being sued, I would ask a lawyer.

[whole wasp]

Your employment will be at will and may be terminated by either you or the company at any time for any reason with or without notice. However we request that if you desire to resign from employment that you give the company X days notice (which the company may waive or shorten).

[peak halo]

my reading of this is that you can leave at any time without legal consequences, but they will be sad if you don't give them at least X days notice.

[whole wasp]

I also haven’t signed any other contracts such as NDA etc

But I still work there they sent me those contracts while I was already working

[peak halo]

@whole wasp your original question was if they can sue you for leaving employment, but this clearly says that you can terminate your employment at any time with or without notice. do you have another question?

[whole wasp]

so the other contracts I mentioned since I’m still working there and I haven’t signed them and may have access to company information that may be confidential etc and if I quit without signing those docs could they do anything? The offer letter says it’s contingent on those docs but I got them much later

[peak halo]

it sounds like these questions are really troubling you, so I would strongly recommend that you talk to a lawyer. I can't comment any further.

[whole wasp]

They are expensive

[peak halo]

They also know what they're talking about.

[delicate bane]

some offer free quotes

[whole wasp]

Feel like I have a 5 min question

[summer roost]

They're expensive because they know the laws. Taking advice from strangers on the internet is cheaper, but you're much more likely to get an incorrect answer.

especially given that the answers to questions like you're asking are likely country and possibly even state specific.

[summer roost]

And 5 minutes of a lawyer's time is well within the realm of what a software developer should be able to afford.

[whole wasp]

They have like a minimum 1 hour booking probably

[peak halo]

probably? have you checked?

[summer roost]

one hour of a lawyer's time is also well within the realm of what a software developer should be able to afford.

[peak halo]

in either case, random people on the internet aren't going to know all legal specifics of your circumstances, and if you're concerned that you might get sued, you simply shouldn't be asking for advice here.

[whole wasp]

I guess I can just keep working here until they do something.

[summer roost]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

that's certainly an option, though it seems like it would be a better choice to research the consequences of your actions before you take those actions.

[whole wasp]

True

Still don’t know how I can work here without having the NDA etc not signed unless they just forgot. Feel like I might get in trouble for that if I quit? But I thought if I didn’t sign those I should also be safe

[summer roost]

perhaps. But if your offer letter said that agreeing to those things was a condition of employment, and you don't agree to those things, then you might be on the hook for paying back wages, or something like that.

And the answer to nuances like that is likely country- and state- specific.

It's possible they don't even need you to sign those papers, because they gave you other paperwork that said that you must agree to those things to get the job, and your acceptance of the job after that point constituted a legally binding agreement.

For all I know. I'm not a lawyer. 🙂

[whole wasp]

Well that’s scary. But that’s basically also kind of forcing me to sign?but I thought if I don’t agree to those things I just get fired because these contracts were suppose to be signed before the first day of employment but I got them much later so idk how that’s my fault. That doesn’t make sense if I don’t need to sign those papers because what’s the point of signing them then. Also they were at one point telling me to sign them. For all I know I don’t remember any other letter that I signed other than the company training documents that have policies. Also it says contingent on NDA etc which I thought meant it’s on their side meaning if I don’t sign it they can just take the job/offer away or fire me. It also says reference checks in there but they never did that either. Also I thought contingent means different than agreeing? Im not agreeing I thought. Still confused cuz if I have to pay back wages that would suck. Cuz I know in my last job I just quit but I had signed the NDAs etc and nothing happened.

[summer roost]

Sounds like something you should ask a lawyer about. If you can't afford a lawyer, there may be legal aid options available to you.

[whole wasp]

Not sure if it matters but I signed the offer letter after the date it said on there to be signed by. Because it says if u don’t sign it by this date it’s null but idk how I was able to sign it and idk if that helps me or makes me situation worse in anyway?

[summer roost]

neither do we.

[onyx locust]

hello, I'm an aspiring full-stack "engineer" and I wanted to know what I was missing out on. So I understand that a "Full" "Stack" is a frontend, backend, and database but what else am I missing from the stack, do I have to know the whole OSI model and be able to reproduce technology which incorporates it?
a better way for me to understand what technology is missing from my full-stack prowess would be to look at this repo I have https://github.com/Wizock/Nuclei its my first serious production of a fullstack application.
it's using this tech stack

{
  "frontend":"Dart/flutter",
  "backend" :"Flask",
  "database":"Postgres/IPFS",
}
```but I don't know what's missing from this tech stack, what other technologies I need to incorporate into it. Im using gevent, redis, celery and will implement kafka for notifications but what implementations/technology incorporations can improve this application. By the way, this is a resume project/something to display my programmatic skills so I'm really going all out for this project. Therefore I need to display my knowledge of current technology and my ability as a full stack. Also, I don't know what gunicorn is or Nginx and how it ties in but I understand I'm missing that bit of knowledge. I would like to understand what I currently don't know is very appreciated by the full-stack standard. Thank you

[smoky quest]

I guess you may want to look at https://roadmap.sh/

[zinc notch]

Is there anyone work as a freelancer? I wanna start a freelance career. I would appreciate it if you guys help me out.

[plush spindle]

Do I need to study statitics for data visuslization? If so, then from where ?

[dry quiver]

starting your career as a freelancers is definitily gonna be tough

[stuck helm]

I got offer from another company that I will join next month.

When I leave the current company next month, I would have 1 year 10 months of experience wit the current company. Is it too short?

[onyx locust]

well. according to the roadmaps online, i guess im a fullstack.

[smoky quest]

congrats!

[smoky quest]

It's all about the context. if a candidate has one company with 1y among multiple jobs, then it doesn't stand out. If a candidate never stayed at a company more than 1y, then it raises some questions.
2 years is on the short side but not abnormal

[stuck helm]

My current company is really small. No one knows about it. I'm the only dev. Pay is ok.

But the new company is fortune 500. I will work with other devs, learn from them. Pay is also better.

[smoky quest]

Why would the next manager reviewing your resume care about it?

[stuck helm]

What do you mean?

[smoky quest]

From the perspective of the future hiring manager reviewing your resume, they will look at your experiences and see how long you stay in general at a company. So the specific context of a given job matters if it's limited to one job. But if it goes across multiple jobs, then it's about you, not the company

Basically, if you have a short stint at a given job, the problem may be at the company. But if there are 5 jobs held during a very short time, the problem would most likely lie with the candidate

[stuck helm]

Oh no, I'm not planning on job hoping every 1 years or so.

I'm planning on staying with the new company around 3, 4 years.

I think I could still work part time at my current company for couple more months and get to the 2 year mark.

But then I would have overlapping experience plus burnout of working at 2 places.

[smoky quest]

tbh, my recommendation is stay within 2-4 years. Unfortunately, staying longer is not rewarded and there are more incentives and opportunities for switching jobs than staying longer

[smoky quest]

it doesn't matter for 2 months

[stuck helm]

What do you mean it doesnt matter for 2 months?

It doesnt matter that I would by 2 months shy to get to 2 year mark?

[smoky quest]

correct.
It's all about how people would project you joining them. Ex: if you have stayed less than 2 years at every company, then why would it be different here?
So 1year and 10 months VS 2 years and 2 months at a single job won't matter in the grand scheme of things

However, if you have 3 jobs in a row where you leave at 1 year and 10 months, some conclusions could be drawn from it 😉

[stuck helm]

I think I see what you mean. If you stay less than 2 years at every company then every company would know that you would leave in less than 2 years, so at that point the company might give preference to someone else who has a better track record than you of staying with the same company.

[smoky quest]

note that some companies may be ok with it and some won't. But that's what it will tell about you

And you can't use the "vastly underpaid" or "toxic company" multiple times in a row.

[stuck helm]

That's a good point. Yeah because at that point it becomes a you problem instead of a them problem.

[smoky quest]

exactly!

so all in all, don't worry about this job.
But think about how it fit into the context of your whole story. And again, almost two years won't matter

[stuck helm]

Actually, it's good that I stopped by here, because I was planning on staying at the new company for 2, 3 years and then try to get into FAANG.

But now I think maybe I will stay at the new company between the 3 to 4 year mark and then jump to a better opportunity.

[smoky quest]

The questions just pop up when it's consistently below 2 years. Beyond that, no one really care. So I wouldn't wait for 4 years. It would take some time anyway to prepare for the interviews and go for it.
Also don't force yourself to stay at a place where you are miserable

I didn't mean to scare you or make you overthink it

[stuck helm]

ok I think this sums it up well, The questions just pop up when it's below consistently below 2

[zinc notch]

I ll try my best

[stuck helm]

Yeah I think it will be fine.
And yeah preparing for interviews also takes time. I prepared for 8 months 🤦‍♂️, but next time I prepare for interviews it will be a bit more easier and I can focus more on the harder concepts.

[dry quiver]

good luck!

[vapid jay]

I am a uni student looking to get a job in python, i am out of ideas as to what to build, i have some projects for ds/ml and some tiny desktop apps in python, can i have some help in guidance as to what to do to build myself as a better candidate for python related jobs?

[buoyant seal]

kaggle.com full of ideas if you seek ds/ml projects. The Hello World in ML is usually symbol recognition

[sly gyro]

The best option would be learning a particular framework

Such as Django,flask etc

You can use Django for web development

[buoyant seal]

that's if u wish to become backend developer

for ds/ml u do ds/ml projects, for backend u use backend framework stuff

[vapid jay]

should i pursue a BSc + MSc for CS or just do a MEng

[dense mesa]

MEng is good since you get better student funding, but separate MSc gives more flexibility in where you go for masters

[gritty rivet]

I agree with what's been said. Yet another direction to consider is data engineering. If you might want to go that route, build some kind of ETL pipeline. If you're not already comfortable with Postgres and SQL start there then explore tools like Airflow, Kafka, Spark.

[vapid jay]

so should i do BEng + MSc

[dense mesa]

Apply for BEng since you can usually try and move up to MEng if you really want it

Although don't just take my advice because I was dead set against MEng, look into which one is better for you. I'm only recommending BEng because the entry requirements are usually lower, despite you still (usually) being able to move up with the required grades

[near remnant]

I regret doing my master's in Applied Economics and my bachelor's in Supply Chain Management

😩

People tell me that I know more and code more than actual CS students and my degrees should not hold me back getting a junior job but yeah...

Life is hard

[plush spindle]

You will get a job eventually
Stay strong king 🙏 🙏 🙏 🙏

[near remnant]

Im currently interviewing for many jobs but yeah.. Trying to stay motivated, hard sometimes. Thank you

[rocky monolith]

What type of entry level engineers would be available for someone with intermediate python knowledge are there?

[peak halo]

you're asking what entry level positions might be available for your level of experience?

[vapid jay]

I want to get into software engineering with python rather than ds.

[vapid jay]

I am currently learning flask

It assumes you know css and hmtl doesnt it

[gritty rivet]

A lot of backend stuff, like building API integrations.

[gritty rivet]

Have you seen this? https://roadmap.sh/python

[vapid jay]

Good god thanks a lot

[vapid jay]

Does the orange ones mean they can be replaced by the gray ones. Like instead of github i can learn gitlab as well, or flask instead of django

[frozen flame]

this is a very cool resource thanks for sharing... I have a question about whether I should start to look for internships/entry level positions before or after I take my first data structures / algorithms course ( this coming fall I will take it ).

[vapid jay]

if youre in usa take the course before

[frozen flame]

def chillin in Cali

and word that's what I thought - knowing that stuff will help a ton in interviews and on the job right?

[vapid jay]

ok so if you go for no names theyre not gonna bother with leetcode, but still know the basics of dsa

[frozen flame]

Ok - so smaller companies or ones with less IT resources are generally an easier goal ? Not even sure where I'd wanna apply yet but definitely good to know

[vapid jay]

if you go for big ones youll go through like 3 - 4 interviews with lc meds and hards

i got an internship with a med sized without doing any leetcode

they cancelled everything due to budget after i got it but thats another thing

[frozen flame]

True indeed good to know - I was stumped pretty handily when I got to med leetcode... ahh dang that's a bummer. did you wind up in another one eventually ? or just straight to industry?

[vapid jay]

nah waiting to grad from school, theyll give me the position if therell be one in the future, but ill turn into application machine gun regardless. so in industry in a year

[frozen flame]

right on nice - you're pretty close to grad I'm guessing... definitely should open up a bunch more opportunities with that paper in hand

[vapid jay]

yeah, appereantly they toss out applications without a school name on it

so if you in usa community college is good enough if youre consciouss

[frozen flame]

haha right on - the application process is crazy as shit. I'm trying to get into a UC for software eng will be done with my comm college classes this fall

I'm kinda batting the idea back and for to get a ASc in Cyber Security tho while I have a between semester... did a competition this spring it was super rad learned a ton

[delicate bane]

thats awesome. have you also considered the Security+ cert? its def attractive for candidates for entry-level cybersec positions

[gritty rivet]

Yeah, orange is recommended but if you pick a gray one that's similar enough

[gritty rivet]

It's never to early to go fishing and see what bites. You're bound to learn from the process even if you're not immediately successful

[tidal sail]

how can I contribute to opensource projects?

[vapid jay]

use github, pull request

[tidal sail]

oh I am already on github. I already contributed to a few projects. How do I get into more serious stuff?

[vapid jay]

find interesting stuff, i wouldnt recommend it if youre not competent enough to do so tho

[tidal sail]

😭 I just know python, datascience and a lil about ast

find interesting stuff that's difficult
I am only good at math

[rocky monolith]

yep, and i meant careers haha, i wrote this when i was tired

[tidal sail]

Thank u btw transhuman

like I contributed cat theroy to sympy module but that's it.

[vapid jay]

hi i need coding to learn sdly

sadly

[dense mesa]

@vapid jay hopefully you'll have a change of heart once you start, try asking for help in #python-discussion

[vapid jay]

ok

[frozen flame]

Good to hear, and yes I'm planning to take Security+ and Linux+ courses this fall and I think I should be ready for the CompTIA certs.

[frozen flame]

Definitely hear that - the best way to learn something is by doing it. I've got a basic resume together I was planning on hitting up a few tech recruiters in my area with it and see what they think

[delicate bane]

perfect. ask your professor for the academic discount/voucher and best of luck dude. keep at it with the cybersec competitions; ive been told thats also very attractive for candidates for companies, especially if you place high

[vapid jay]

I am a 2018 passout computer science graduate and I tried coding for around 1 year and I was unable to do it so, I left it.

I want to retry the programming part, I had the basic knowledge of python but I have not done the coding part for the past 2 years.

I am not able to understand where should I start, and which programming language should I pick up.

Will python will be good from the future perspective or anything.

What should be the right path to learning to code effectively.

Should I give it a retry, all my friends who went to promgramming field are earning good and I am unemployed and broke. I don't know what should I do ?

Any Experience one, kindly suggest.

( I am Indian )

[near remnant]

Is it rude to ask the dev who referred me to the company, to follow up with their HR about my interview process? I just want to know if I should expect a call next week or nah

[honest pivot]

Yes, it would be rude

[near remnant]

Why?

I've been waiting for the final interview for more than 2 weeks now. I followed-up once at the dev who referred me, he told me that I should wait, HR will call me but they are too slow due to vacations, etc. But still nothing.

[peak halo]

if you're friends with that person, that's one thing. but in general, the person who referred you probably doesn't have any control over the process. if you're that far in the interview process and you haven't heard anything for two weeks, I think it would be reasonable to ask HR for an update, but try not to annoy them.

[near remnant]

I got interviewed by the guy who referred me. That was the first stage, haha. It would be the final one. Maybe wait for Monday and ask this guy if he knows something or if he thinks I should expect a call?

[honest pivot]

They already told you the reason for the delay, that people are on vacation. Asking again will not change that, and will definitely annoy people.

[peak halo]

I'm inclined to agree with this

[honest pivot]

You're still applying for other things, right?

[near remnant]

Yeah, I agree..it just makes me so stressed out. My friend (referral) said I should just wait because I'll get a call. He was always helpful so dont think he would lie.

[near remnant]

Yeah, Im having interviews every week

But this would be my first choice at the moment

[honest pivot]

Continue your other interviews and don't get attached to one opportunity until you have concrete offers.

[near remnant]

I guess, I just have to wait more. If they wont call next week then I give up lmao

[honest pivot]

That's the thing, you don't have to give up, or not give up, or even think about it. Focus on your other processes. If they call you, they'll call you. If something else comes along, take it.

[near remnant]

I know, I know how it works.

[honest pivot]

It's quite possible this company is not as into you as you think they are

[hybrid oyster]

Who here is aiming to be a software engineer?

[near ocean]

Pretty much the entire server, do you have a specific question?

[vapid jay]

is anyone here from Ireland I was thinking about applying at a university there for my masters

[hybrid oyster]

Just wanted to know which subjects do I have to master to get into Waterloo Computer Science

[near remnant]

Yeah, it can happen, but my referral said that even the CEO knows about me and wants me to start as soon as possible. This is why I had so much hope for this but now I feel a bit lost because I have to wait so long for a call.

I know, the guy told me HR just came back from his vacation and hes a bit slow and I should expect a call but yeah. Dunno what these words worth anymore.

[hybrid oyster]

Like ones that matter the most for universities

[near ocean]

You could look at the entry requirements for the course, ask your careers counselor

[hybrid oyster]

Ok

[dense mesa]

People lie and exaggerate all the time, not to be a dick but if they wanted someone very badly, they would get them quickly

[near remnant]

But then why I see so many people getting SWE jobs with really long interview processes and waiting? I get your point tho.

But its just an internship, nothing extraordinary

We'll see, im gonna contact my referral next Monday for the last time and thats it

[near ocean]

In my own and my friends' experience, interview processes have been shrunk down to sometimes single day sessions
Both my finance friends have had single day 4+h interviews that were converted to offers within days

[near remnant]

I have the opposite experience

Well, anyways

Im going to contact my referral friend tomorrow, wish him a good weekend and ask him if I should expect a call next week or nah.

💀 dont care

[dense mesa]

Because those people aren't "wanted" wanted, so they go through the same long process as the others

[near remnant]

This is a weird way of thinking

They created the internship just because of me

Its not even public, just internal

[dense mesa]

Alright I get that but are you working there yet

[near remnant]

Nah, because based on what my referral said, the HR guy whos responsible for finalizing stuff and contract etc, has just came back from vacation and slowed down. But yeah.. Dunno if I should trust that💀 💀 😂 😂

[buoyant seal]

xD for the last 10 interviews i never encountered single day interviews

usually it is, 1 interview with HR, 1 technical home task or 1 automated interview, 1 technical interview, then I can encounter the last 1 manager interview

[near ocean]

I've had a tech interview and HR call same day, all remote
My friends went to their offices for multiple interviews same day for Bank of America, UBS, Credit Suisse and others

[summer roost]

I think 4 hours plus or minus 1 is a pretty normal amount of total time interviewing for a software dev job, and the number of days that's spread over can vary from company to company

I'd expect that to be spread over 1 to 3 days, with 2 being the average

[smoky quest]

Multiple reasons:

• It will take time for anyone to ramp up to be familiar with the job/company/culture
• It's safer to reject a potentially great candidate than to hire a potentially bad one
• Just finding the right person takes time in itself

So the cost of rushing it is not worth the risk and hassles it creates. That said, once the company wants to make an offer, things will (should) move fast

[crisp jewel]

Hello everyone hru? I'm 17 years old and have been coding for a couple years now and would like to start making money free lancing online does anyone have any tips on what to do to get started. (I am very familiar with python, java script, and java)

[smoky quest]

Try to find the intersection between what you can do comparing to what is in demand. You could look at freelancing websites to see what are people asking for

And just to make sure it's out there: regardless, aim to go for a CS degree as it will help you have a proper and better career

[crisp jewel]

Alright thank you for your advice, I am planning on going to college and get a duel degree in computer science and (aerospace engineering or cyber security) next year.

[near remnant]

I know many ppl who didnt do CS because they suck at math but good at programming

[balmy mural]

Hey everyone, looking for some advice on if it's worth applying for some jobs internationally now or if I should wait.
Originally I planned on getting 2-3 years of work experience locally first before emigrating, but due to some personal circumstances, my ideal timeframe of emigrating has been sped up to as soon as possible after finishing my degree. I'm currently finishing my postgrad honours degree (which seems to be equivalent to a bachelors degree everywhere else in the world) and I'll be finishing sometime in December.
A friend working in tech in one of the countries I've been considering told me I should start looking at applying to some job postings already even though I won't be able to start working anywhere this year. I'm not getting my hopes up of actually getting a definitive job this way, but I'd like to know if there's any negatives to already applying to some jobs, and if there's any sliver of a chance of landing a job?

[smoky quest]

No one can answer that. That depends on the country, the economic forecast, what you are offering, etc.

That said, emigrating is generally planned well in advance as it may take months and even some times years to go through all the paperworks and visa processes. ( assuming a destination country which has visa requirements for you. Changing states in the US or country in the EU wouldn't have that much hurdles)

[honest pivot]

I think hiring decisions are made much more slowly over here (but also, notice periods can be 1-3 months and stipulated in the contract). I recently had a process that was a total of maybe 8 hours of interviews spread out over 3 months.

[gritty rivet]

I can see no negatives to applying. A job application is zero commitment and you're bound to learn something in the process

[honest pivot]

I think this may depend on the countries. What is your home country and where do you want to emigrate to?

[balmy mural]

Unfortunately not US, and moving from a non EU country to an EU country. My biggest question right now would be if there's any reason I should not try to apply to some jobs already, even though I wouldn't be able to work anywhere I apply for at least 6 months

South Africa -> Netherlands

[smoky quest]

The main reason is if you don't know the visa requirements and process.
Walk backward from your goal

[honest pivot]

ah, ok, similar language at least. I agree with your friend, you should make some applications.

[balmy mural]

Need a residence permit to work, need an employment contract to apply for the residence permit. So I believe getting a job would be the first step

[honest pivot]

It usually is. Also make sure you understand the actual requirements to get the residence card. Most countries use some kind of point-based system based on your degree, your salary, your command of the language, your age, etc.

[smoky quest]

Right and check the timelines for the different steps.

For instance for the US, H1B visas must be applied on April 1st, to be delivered by Sept/Oct (forgot which one). Which means that if you were looking for a job in the US, you would be way outside of the applicable timeline right now

[honest pivot]

Every EU country I've applied in just has rolling applications, not a fixed date like the US. But consult the Netherlands government website to be sure.

[smoky quest]

Yep. That's the point: check the timelines and requirements so you are more informed.
You don't want to apply to a bunch of companies who would reject you because you are going the wrong way or wrong time. And you don't want to be in a state of "now what?" once someone reply or find an opportunity

It's most likely your potential future manager has no clue about all the visa steps and requirements about you. You will be your best advocate

[balmy mural]

Alright, thanks. I'll work through steps required to get to Netherlands and be certain of what timeline I'd be looking at and then start applying to some jobs

[abstract current]

Do you have experience with X technology?

Whars the best way to answer that if you don't have any experience with that tech?

[smoky quest]

Also try to target companies with an international set of employees or people from your country. They will be more likely to be familiar with the immigration process and have more empathy towards people like them (ie. you)

[smoky quest]

You answer you don't have any but would look forward to learn more about it
Or if you have some experience with a related technology, you can bring that up

[near remnant]

Btw, the lead dev (my referral) after the interview told me "to be continued next week" and also told me things that I should revise before starting the internship. Also told me that he told HR that they should contact me to talk about my contract and stuff.

So based on these, and the fact that I've been waiting for 2 weeks now for the HR call, what are my chances?

[abstract current]

Thats what I've been saying

But usually makes no difference

Usually interviewer seems disinterested after I say no no matter how much I try to spin it

[smoky quest]

Then it means you aren't qualified for the job. If it's a recurring question, it may be worth learning about that technology and building some experience with it

[abstract current]

Its not recurring. It could be completely different depending on the job

Do you have experience with aws? Do you have experience with dotnet? Do you have experience with rabbitmq?

List can go on and on

[smoky quest]

Then you may want to stop spamming random companies and be a bit more focused in your applications?

[honest pivot]

Can you at least show that you know what the basic ideas of these technologies are?

[abstract current]

Yes I can talk about what it does but don't have practical hands on experience which seems is all they care about

[smoky quest]

That said, aws, dotnet and rabbitmq point at backend and any backend dev should know about them or some equivalent

[abstract current]

These are just general software dev roles

[smoky quest]

Job ads would typically be more specific

[abstract current]

I can't learn every single tech nology

[smoky quest]

No one is asking you to learn every technology. But companies will expect you to be familiar with the families of technologies related to the job they are hiring for

For instance, let's take aws. AWS is a cloud vendor. If you aren't familiar with it, you may be familiar with Google Cloud or Azure and you can mention them

[abstract current]

I have been mentioning that

I don't know know x but do know y which is similr

Still. Makes no difference

[smoky quest]

then something else is at play here

[abstract current]

Like?

[smoky quest]

I don't know. I am not there at your interviews to observe you 😉

[honest pivot]

Could be they really want that specific thing. Or it could be something about how you present yourself. Interviewing is a bit of a skill in itself.

[abstract current]

Well obviously I was asking the possibilities

[smoky quest]

We may argue that one company really did care about a very specific technology. But that wouldn't be the case across multiple companies

You may want to record yourself or do mock interviews with some friends

[abstract current]

I've done plenty. I've been told my communication skills is top notch

Could be the company itself is just looking for specific skill

[vapid jay]

Hello. Question to recruiters or anyone in the know:

If I want to apply for a contract job at any company, can I use my LLC to sign for the contracting job instead of having the contract work be directly to my name?

[smoky quest]

you should be able to. I don't see why not.
That said, I am not a lawyer and you should ask that to one

[summer roost]

Fair enough, my perspective is definitely anchored on the US.

[little abyss]

What's the difference between information systems and software?

Is software development and information systems development the same thing?

[vapid jay]

Yeah, I thought so too. Just wanted to find out if someone knows people doing it. Thanks for the answer.

[gritty rivet]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_system

Software is just one small piece of that

[little abyss]

If information systems contain software why do universities seperate them then? 🤔

They're 2 different fields

[gritty rivet]

Correct, they are different fields. Every program is different so look at the specific curriculum you are considering

If you're goal is to be a software engineer, you most likely don't want to major in IS but again it may depend on the program

[little abyss]

I mean why do i even consider software development if I'm going to study it in information system development ?

[summer roost]

generally, Information Systems degrees would focus on using existing software, as opposed to building new software

if an IS degree teaches you anything about building software at all, I'd expect it to be pretty superficial, and much less in depth than what a CS degree covers

[little abyss]

So CS is better? 👀

[gritty rivet]

Better if you want to be a software engineer instead of an IS specialist, sure.

[summer roost]

if you're interested in a career in software development, the most relevant degree will either be Computer Science or Software Engineering

[little abyss]

Gotcha thank you guys, I'll check the curriculum too

[vapid jay]

When people looking for workers ask for experience does this mean on the job experience? Because I’ve been programming websites for a couple of years and I’m pretty good at it and I don’t know if that counts as experience, it’s a little vague

Also if I’m following a tutorial online to make a game could I uploaded it to GitHub to show case it as part of what I’ve made?

Thanks

[buoyant seal]

in 98% cases they ask for commercial (job) experience.
you can always attach your pet projects though into resume

[vapid jay]

All right 🥸 thank you @buoyant seal

[smoky quest]

Employers would look for people who went beyond following tutorials. So while good for you, that wouldn't really catch the attention

[vapid jay]

@smoky quest applying for jobs just feels wrong like I’m undervaluing myself to get there attention to do a little job for them. I could just get my own work and they can try and partner with me I guess

[smoky quest]

What's your goal? What type of job do you want to do?
Do you have a CS degree? (or related)

[smoky quest]

Writing websites is rather low on the scale nowadays. There are plenty of folks I can hire for very cheap. So why would you stand out?

[vapid jay]

I wouldn’t work for you then if you want to hire cheap from India for a little website you get cheap product as well. Why not get the good man down the road to do it better, writing web apps closely coupled to mobile apps too. But looking at what people are charging Not all websites are cheap, for me anyway @smoky quest

[smoky quest]

That's the point. Why would anyone want to work with you?

[vapid jay]

To get the job done

[smoky quest]

Don't take it the wrong way, but what I am trying to convey here is that you are probably going at it the wrong way.
You need to look at it not just from your perspective but from a market point of view with supply and demand.

What you are trying to supply can be found in abundance and cheaply and get great results. Thus you will have a hard time to find people willing to pay for your services, especially if you are still at the stage of following tutorials

[vapid jay]

@smoky quest right, now can you argue everything of what you just said to me yourself

[smoky quest]

What do you mean?

[delicate bane]

i had another weird situation today

like

there was this guy that randomly came up to me at the cafe right? since he saw my friend and i doing some coding things

[vapid jay]

@smoky quest sorry I have to go now have a good day

[delicate bane]

turns out hes a startup founder (didnt know this at the time), has like 10+ years in software, and brought up a hypothetical scenario involving sensor fusion + ML on the edge

i gave him my thoughts from the ML side and how you could help reduce latency, but it def seemed like a pretty complicated scenario involving networking and IoT and many things i do not know about

[smoky quest]

that's has been pretty popular too over the past 1-2 years

[delicate bane]

so i told him about my friend who has a background in such matters and who ALSO went through our grad program

how do i do like a soft introduction/referral (if thats what this is/im "reading the room" correctly)

[delicate bane]

[smoky quest]

You contact your friend first to check if they are open to meet that founder and then just send an email or something to both.

[dense mesa]

Sensor fusion + ML sounds like autonomous driving

[smoky quest]

there is tons in factories and even farms

See also "tinyml" on a vaguely related sub-topic

[delicate bane]

more IoT stuff here but yeah i can see that

[dense mesa]

Agricultural engineering is 💪

[delicate bane]

[dense mesa]

Car is a Thing that can connect to the Internet

[delicate bane]

im assuming a joint linkedin message has the same vibes

[smoky quest]

yeah. The main thing is to make sure you got the OK from your friend. Don't throw strangers on them

[delicate bane]

okay

[smoky quest]

at them may be more proper english

[delicate bane]

yeah hes doing more MLOps/model monitoring rn but i know this would be right up his alley

he could probably do some feature engineering on TCP/IP info or other networking thingies or something

[smoky quest]

The use case is more like having different sensors (temperature, cameras, etc.) and their fusion and use in improving some process.
For instance having cameras with a ML model for QA on apples or identifying plant illnesses

Or all the sensors around a city and how to make the traffic safer and more fluid

So in that sense, tcp/ip wouldn't matter. There are also some interesting networking stack on the IoT side

[delicate bane]

tbh its an interesting problem with a lot of complexity; the tradeoffs between accurate models vs. low latency ALSO because they have special hardware you can run compute / small-sized models close to the edge vs. bigger models on the cloud

i just gave the guy my thoughts kinda like this and how if you really narrow your use-case, you can shrink models and only save the weights you truly need to reduce latency; he still tried to ask about my future plans, but i gave him a soft refusal - mostly bc i dont really know that space (it would be more CV models), and my specialty is more in NLP + Search and Recommendations

did i do the right thing @smoky quest, you think?

[smoky quest]

Define right?
Depends on how it aligns with your goals

[delicate bane]

[vapid jay]

Hi I’m looking for someone to help me with this :

https://www.npmjs.com/package/youtube-album-uploader-multiple

I don’t have much knowledge in coding. I can pay if you can set this up for me. it’s a simple YouTube bot to upload music on YouTube but I don’t know how to make this work I CAN PAY

[smoky quest]

Is that person a business or tech person?

[delicate bane]

tech

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
This is the wrong channel as it does not pertain to #career-advice . You should check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[vapid jay]

Thanks a lot !

[smoky quest]

I see.
I was asking in case it was a cofounder situation.

In any case, unless they are a douche, keep in touch on linkedin.
Then it depends on how open you are to help with a startup and in which capacity and how much you think it's worth your time/effort or bullets on your resume

[delicate bane]

i see, i see

i feel like i would maybe be comfortable with taking such a risk if it was maybe my 2nd or 3rd job after graduation; i just feel like i dont have enough real world exp to make an impact

[smoky quest]

It's a win-win situation. As a founder, it looks like he has no one he can ask question or rely upon on this topic. And hiring a contractor/expert would be expensive.
In your case, it can be an opportunity to get some stock and some experience. Could be as any good as any other side projects.
So I would look at it more opportunistically. Note there are also tons of startups like that. So it's not like you would be stuck or missing out on a lot anyway

And the type of help could go from having a random coffee chat with them, to actually doing things

[delicate bane]

oh no he already has a co-founder; i shouldve mentioned this. they are big in the MLOps space too. def has the ML expertise.

[delicate bane]

oh ok, i see

he even told me i can ask his friend for one of my challenges of deploying a model that needs access to 2 GPUs for inference for my current work

and scaling that in the cloud

[smoky quest]

it's nice of him

[delicate bane]

yeah he seems like a nice guy, so like you said, ill def keep in contact with him and then introduce my networking friend to him

said friend also has much, much more experience with CV models as well

and if they have an interesting side project where i think i could help a bit, then i guess i can do that

dunno how much i can contribute tho

[smoky quest]

you would be surprised

If you are already familiar with DL in the context of search/recommendation, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to pick up CV after a bit of reading

[delicate bane]

the problem is more like those types of problems dont really interest me

and so it would be more of a motivation thing if that makes sense

i know thats kinda weird but i think im pretty weird as evident with these reoccurring weird situations

[smoky quest]

ah yeah, that's a different problem and entirely up to you.
My point is that you should be able to if you wanted

[delicate bane]

yeah...ill give it some thought and sleep on it

since it literally happened this morning

💀

[rocky monolith]

yeah, thats exactly what i mean

[molten cargo]

The last sentence just described at-will, just say this constitutes the entirety of the at-will employment agreement

.

[whole wasp]

You are saying to ask them to modify the last sentence to urs?

[molten cargo]

Oh I thought you were the author of the letter

[whole wasp]

What...

[dense mesa]

@whole wasp if you try and modify it at all, you should consider them completely rescinding the offer

[molten cargo]

It looks pretty typical for a US offer letter.

[whole wasp]

@dense mesa well I’m basically asking whatever written there is fine and normal because before I had an offer letter with weird stuff in it such as jury waiver

[dense mesa]

It seems like a boilerplate contract, but I'm not a lawyer and should not have my opinion considered at all. Also assuming this is a US company, I have no experience and extremely limited understanding of how stuff works there. But beyond that, it looks like any offer letter would look

[molten cargo]

All it says is that while you work there, you don't get to work for an industry competitor, or have an outside job that negatively affects your performance, and that you won't go to a direct industry competitor within a year of leaving.

The first two are extremely typical, the third is what constitutes generally unenforcable non-compete clauses. It would really only matter if there was substantial proprietary property that you could take to a competitor and provide them with a competitve advantage.

It also says if they sue you for some reason related to that, and if you lose, you owe them their expenses, which is also typical request of most complainants in lawsuits.

[smoky quest]

That type of non compete is not common in CA

(which points at ymmv and to check your state law and a lawyer)

[whole wasp]

Where does it say I can’t work for a competitor company for a year?

[whole wasp]

Still don’t see it in there

[molten cargo]

if you leave the company, you can't go to a competitor and poach your old clients, or you risk a lawsuit. After a year, they won't sue you for it. Also, you can't go to any of your old clients and ask for work.

IDk what your job is. That's essentially a noncompete for sales related positions.

If you work for Oracle doing database work, you can't go to IBMs database team with a list of customers that Oracle has. that's all its saying, really.

If you work for Oracle doing database work, you likely can go to IBM to do database work.

Its an anti-poaching clause, more appropriately.

Its typical and hard to enforce, a business has to lose a lot of money for them to notice and care to do somethign about it.

[summer roost]

There's a ton of grammar errors in that letter. I'd be extremely suspicious of the company, personally, if they let something that obviously flawed go out to new hires.

[whole wasp]

I edited it I changed their company name to us and we and the handbook sentence. If there are other errors then let me know

[summer roost]

there's many. For another example, the snippet quoted above says "or (iii) hire, ...", but there was no (i) or (ii). There's many subject/verb agreement errors, but it's hard to know if you introduced those or they were already there.

The very first sentence has a grammatical error; it should be "This offer is contingent upon successful completion of a drug test and criminal and reference checks."

[whole wasp]

That’s what it says you just put an extra and before criminal

[summer roost]

yes, and removed a comma. Which corrects it.

the way it's written, "criminal" is one of 3 items in the list, but "checks" isn't associated with it

[whole wasp]

Nah I didn’t do this only thing I edited was the company name

There’s 2 items in the list drug test and criminal and reference checks because criminal is a check

[summer roost]

right, and English grammar doesn't work that way. You can't say "I'm going to the zoo, liquor and grocery stores"

There are two valid ways that could be parsed, and "I'm going to the zoo and the liquor store and the grocery store" isn't one of them. That parses as either "I'm going to the zoo store and the liquor store and the grocery store" or as "I'm going to the zoo and I'm going to liquor and I'm going to grocery stores" "Stores" either applies to all 3 things in the list, or only the last one - it can't apply to the last two things in a 3 item list, and you can't put a two item list after a separate non-list thing by putting a comma between them.

I understand what they meant, but what they wrote isn't a grammatically correct way to express that meaning.

[whole wasp]

So why does it matter if they made gramattaical errors again cuz I think this was the recruiter

[summer roost]

the recruiter wouldn't write an offer letter, a lawyer would. This company either isn't hiring lawyers and is instead copy-pasting random legalese without proofreading or understanding it, or they're hiring lawyers who can't write English. Neither option reflects well on the company.

[whole wasp]

Unless there’s something crazy in there why does it matter if they made grammar errors as long as I do the job and get paid. And should I respond to let them know of these errors

[summer roost]

why does it matter if they made grammar errors
Because it's unprofessional, and suggests that they're a company that cuts corners. And for all the same reasons as it would matter if a candidate makes grammar errors in their cover letter or resume. Just like how, if you saw a bunch of typos or grammar errors in a job ad, it would reflect that very little thought or care went into that ad.
should I respond to let them know of these errors
No, I can't imagine any way in which that could benefit you.

[whole wasp]

But what if I need a job and at least with this I’ll be getting experience

[summer roost]

I'm not saying not to take the job. I'm saying that it reflects poorly on them. It's one factor among many to weigh into whatever decisions you're making.

[whole wasp]

Right now that’s the only offer I have but I didn’t sign it in time so I’ll have to ask if it’s even avaliable. If it is I may take it

[hybrid palm]

i'm currently a first year student in college
i want to expand my knowledge of python to the "real world" python, as in, the one that gets jobs

also i'd like to have enough experience in every field to find where my true interest lies and to specialise in that field

i'd love to receive any kind of suggestion or tips because i often find myself lost in a plethora of online sources leading nowhere near where i want to be

[smoky quest]

the main thing is to make projects and read more about stuff

making projects will give you more practical knowledge and reading more about stuff will expand your horizons

[hybrid palm]

ah
i see, i'll try more projects
thanks

[plush spindle]

https://youtu.be/fG9zCuZEB8I

Have you guys seen this?
I was wondering were your thoughts on it?
He argues python isn't used for any large scale projects and says the fields

1. AI/ML - required Phds
2. Data science- would give you a support job
3. Web dev- would require you to learn js anyways

Therefore, if you want a job you should not learn python

|| i personally feel you can learn programming very well with python, it may not be used alone but it is used together with many languages to make epic stuff and a lot of jobs avilabale tbh ||

[smoky quest]

That's BS

[gilded valley]

sounds like clickbait trash

[plush spindle]

How so?

[smoky quest]

Why are we even linking to trash videos like that? Is it a spam or something?

[plush spindle]

I am sorry if you found it to be a trash video, so is all that info false ?

[gilded valley]

a quick look at the channel and it seems to be pushing some bootcamp or other

[smoky quest]

just your first sentence is a give away: He argues python isn't used for any large scale projects and says the fields

Anyone who pushes for that hasn't had any professional experience

[gilded valley]

A point could be made that JS is a better first language than Python if your goal is to be employed ASAP. But it's a nuanced discussion which he clearly isn't interested in

also that second point is so patently absurd - "a support job" == data engineer, which is hugely in demand and gets paid very well

[plush spindle]

I see, I am just a begineer myself. Seeing stuff like this discourages me a bit ngl.

[gilded valley]

don't watch clickbait trash then

[smoky quest]

Sorry for coming so strongly about it.
Don't get sucked into weird youtube videos

[smoky quest]

I did my part and clicked on the dislike button on the video

[graceful mason]

It's a perfectly fine language to learn with (as are most languages), it's used in pretty much every company to some degree, but you definitely shouldn't just learn python and hope you'll get a python-only job

[plush spindle]

A good software engineer is able to effectively use multiple tools or something right ?

[near ocean]

That would be a quality a good engineer would have

[gritty rivet]

Why? I think I might disagree... When you're starting out it's a lot more realistic to master one then multiple languages.

But yes, in the long run, you need to diversify

[near remnant]

i just found out that a friend of mine who has a Philosophy degree works as a Lead Developer for Amazon...wtf

things like this makes me motivated but also quite amazed, how is this even possible

[wispy pagoda]

Philosophy is a degree that will teach you how to think by reading the timeless works of history's greatest thinkers. So once your friend decided to learn to code I'm sure they had thought hard about that decision, weighing all their options, and pursued coding with no reservations. Motivation is fleeting, a purpose/mission will carry you through

[graceful mason]

Personally I don't think you should ever focus on "mastering" a language - you should focus on completing projects. It's more important to learn how to do things that are applicable to any language and to gain practical experience. Mastering languages is the sort of thing that comes naturally with working in industry for decades

That being said you should definitely start with 1 language so you can focus on those things rather than the differences in languages, I was more talking about the people who learn only python then ask how employable they are

[gritty rivet]

Makes sense, though I feel like it's really not that difficult to get hired as an entry level pure Python engineer these days. A number of us active in this channel have done so recently. (But to your point most of us did have some minimal SQL and/or DevOps skills in addition to Python)

[delicate bane]

yeah i feel like theres usually additional auxiliary skills involved in most cases

yeah and some people try to "game the algorithm" to do so

[near remnant]

How much OOP should I know? I've been doing only leetcode lately but was wondering about OOP

[gritty rivet]

It's pretty fundamental. Maybe try refactoring an existing project with classes... I found that a helpful way to learn

[peak halo]

depends on what you want to do, and what exactly you mean by OOP. and what languages you're going to use. because even though everything in Python is an object, you don't really use OOP design concepts in Python all that extensively.

[near remnant]

I've learned OOP when I was learning JavaScript last year but switched to Python in January, didnt really study OOP for Python but find it quite easy

I just dont know how deeply I should sink in the OOP topic

[gritty rivet]

If you now the basics you're probably good but it does depend on what jobs you're looking for, like anything else

[peak halo]

if you know how to use Python classes, there probably isn't that much more you need to learn about OOP itself, unless you want to also use a language where OOP design is part of that language (like Java or C++)

[near remnant]

Ah okay then, just seeing: "knowing OOP fundamentals" on many job requirements. Thats why Im asking

[summer roost]

I disagree... OOP design can be a huge part of Python, depending on the type of work you're doing

Hell, knowing when to use classes in Python vs when to not is a big thing that beginners need to learn.

[near remnant]

Sometimes Im wondering if I should go back to just web dev but I hate javascript and I think python is more universal, lmao

[summer roost]

At the very least, I'd think you should know about instance attributes, instance methods, class methods, properties, subclassing, the MRO, and what super() does.

[near remnant]

Yeah, I know them

But tell me this, how so many ppl get job offers with only leetcode knowledge? I have a friend who got an offer from big tech company but he doesnt know nothing like OOP or stuff like that, just grinded leetcode

[summer roost]

I don't know how anyone could tell you how many people get job offers with only leetcode knowledge. That doesn't seem quantifiable to me.

I can tell you I wouldn't expect that someone with no OOP knowledge whatsoever to be able to land a job at my company, though.

Though at the junior level, most of what you're being hired for isn't your knowledge, but your demonstrated ability to learn

[vapid jay]

Hi Guys I'm studying Computer Engineering. I am currently a first year student. I want to become a Data Engineer. I may say something stupid so ignore it. 😅
I have learned Python(including OOPS) and am currently doing advanced python. I am confused as to what to do to become eligible for it. Can someone guide me.
I want to be a Data Engineer.
(I know Python,C, Java (Complete))

[near remnant]

Yeah, probably thats the reason behind it

[balmy spade]

My 2cp is that this topic is broad and often forced into a smaller box than it can fit. Defining OOP is tricky enough because it isn't exclusively contained within classes. Design patterns are built around the conceptual idea of object oriented programming and design patterns don't require the use of a class. The concept of a class, in Python, is something I consider core knowledge. It's not learning OOP directly, in my opinion. It's learning how the keyword and structure works, when to use it, and when it doesn't need to be used.

I agree this all depends on what you plan to do. For Python, it's valuable to understand classes, how they work, and why we use them. For development positions and engineering roles it's valuable to know design patterns, how they work, and why we use them. The layers are just that, strata of knowledge that you continue to learn.

A junior developer is expected to know how a programming language works. The core basics, enough to write and read code on their own and complete tasks with some guidance. I believe that also includes the concept of classes, objects, and when to use them but probably not the full understanding of design patterns yet.

Swinging it back to career related focus; yes, learning both classes and OOP is important if you are seeing a programming career. How much? Know how and why classes work just the same way you know how and why loops work. Know that OOP is a large field that includes common design patterns found everywhere and why, decades later, we still use them.

Whew. Good morning.

[vapid jay]

Guys please 🥺

[balmy spade]

To become eligible for what? A Data Engineer position?

[vapid jay]

Yes

[balmy spade]

That's going to depend on a large amount of factors including and not limited to your country, the school's requirements for graduation, the company you apply for, and the position requirements.

You know several languages and you're just starting school. The school will have a program laid out toward the goal of graduation. What you learn along the way will deepen your skillset for your career. Keep programming and diving deep into the field of interest. Build projects between your classes that interest you and deal with data.

Unfortunately there isn't, to my knowledge, a measuring bar to say "congrats, you are eligible". Most positions have minimum requirements. However, those can just be nice-to-haves depending on the country and company. Your school probably also has career resources at your use which will be focused for the companies in your area. Be sure to check in on those too.

[vapid jay]

Thanks bro Will see to it

[balmy spade]

Always curious to hear other's input too. 👀

[near remnant]

I've realized i've been using OOP for my projects without realizing I use OOP
💯 sigma male grindset

I rewatched some OOP Corey Schafer videos, seems quite easy and understandable.. But then, why do I always feel like I know nothing or not knowing enough?

This will be like forever?

[delicate bane]

theres also dif types of data engineering, so that is something to look into and research about as well. i think all of them however expect some level of cloud knowledge and experience with different types of databases. if your uni offers any courses on parallel and distributed databases, i would also take that and similar classes if possible.

[summer roost]

!rule 6 - please don't drop random advertisements on our server.

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[gritty rivet]

Yes, get used to it. I mean maybe not forever (I've been a SWE less then a year) but I feel both extremes every single day to some degree

[vapid jay]

Any help for a newbie who really wants to get into the coding / programming world?

[shadow mist]

I got so much PTO that I don’t even know how to use it😎

[shadow mist]

What exactly do you want to do in coding?

[vapid jay]

Heyyy, my friend has a chess game and if you would like to play DM me i send you the dc server

wrong channel lol

[icy fern]

I am working on my bachelors and the university has decided to give me a scholarship for the paper I'm in the process of writing, can I add that to the resume as work experience or should I just write the actual things I worked on?

[smoky quest]

I would definitely add that to your resume, but I fail to see how that would be under work experience

[icy fern]

That's what I was thinking. I'm not sure if I'm technically employed - but I'm getting paid monthly basically. I also had to check works of some students in a course... I feel like that's work?

[smoky quest]

as long as you are paid in exchange for your services

[delicate bane]

like a mix between a Research Assistant / Teaching Assistant?

[icy fern]

Well, it's called a scholarship - when filing the tax forms that was what's on it. I don't get taxed on it because of that if that makes sense and they don't pay benefits for various things(like pension etc), it's basically just a sum I'm getting - it's not deducted from my course costs or something, it goes straight to my bank. (I'm not American)
The assignment checks for student was paid separately for every work I graded

also, should I add experience in stuff not related to the job or keep it as short as possible? I always go back and forth because I want it short but every point impressive. Then again, does a python job care I had a course in Unity for example?

[honest pivot]

A scholarship is more like an award than a job. But you are doing some job, which is fair to put on your CV. I used to put Teaching Assistant on mine, it's at least something.

(Awards can go on your CV, too. I have an awards section that I sometimes use. I include a very brief description of what the award is, focusing mostly on why it was awarded and its monetary value.)

[icy fern]

Hmm. I wrote in the awards that I got excellence in one of my final projects.

[honest pivot]

That sounds more like a grade

[icy fern]

It's a yearly project all students have to make, and only given to select few. I was presenting it in front of the class year.

[whole wasp]

Current company has many weird policies of collecting employee data, having no privacy etc

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't over think it. It's nice to put awards (and you should) but as an interviewer, I will care a lot more about the project itself

[icy fern]

Thanks. It's probably good if I can them interested in it since my knowledge in it is very interesting and high level.

[icy fern]

would you mind if I PM you for a CV?

[smoky quest]

Feel free to anonymize it and post it here. There are a few other folks from whom you would want to get feedback from as well

[icy fern]

I just don't want to post it in public. If that's bothersome then I appreciate the help nonetheless :).

[smoky quest]

alright fine. I am also in the middle of something, so I may not be able to get to it right now. But feel free to DM it

[whole wasp]

@summer roost my current company’s offer letter say at will but it then says after we request u give us x amount of days notice. If I don’t do that they can’t sue me right?

[summer roost]

I doubt they could, but I don't know your state's laws, and I am not a lawyer.

At will employment means either party can end the arrangement at any time without notice, so my lay person's understanding is that you would have the right to just walk away. But I'm not a lawyer, and can't guarantee that understanding is correct. If you're looking for guarantees, you should be asking a lawyer instead.

[peak halo]

@whole wasp let me emphasize that we've told you repeatedly that no one on this server can give you legal advice. I'm going to have to ask that you stop seeking it here. If you're interested in knowing the common, non-legal definitions of business terms, you can, though try also not to ask the same questions (even those that don't have legal consequences) repeatedly.

Again, do not ask if you can or cannot be sued for doing x. If you have any questions about this, please ask us over @severe widget.

(In case anyone reads this in the future and sees it as precedent-setting, I suppose the issue isn't so much "what is the legal definition of x", but rather "what is the legal definition of x as it pertains to my specific circumstance, and my expectation that information I get on Python Discord will help me avoid being sued.")

[dreamy spade]

What is a "Portfolio" suppose to look like? Is it suppose to be a folder of files of different projects?

[delicate bane]

[peak halo]

it would usually just be your github account

and you'd arrange your profile page to highlight the projects you want people to see

[stuck helm]

If someone has more than 2, 3 years of experience and they apply to a FAANG company, do they automatically get systems design interview?

[gritty rivet]

A website highlighting your main projects is ideal, but GitHub alone can be sufficient

[summer roost]

hard to say. At 2 years they'd probably still get interviewed for a junior role. At 10 years they'd definitely be interviewed for a senior role. The cutoff point will be somewhere in between, and might depend on both the company and the candidate's prior experience.

[stuck helm]

So around 5 years of experience, you may or may not get a systems design?

[summer roost]

I'd expect that at 5 years it would be more likely that you would get a systems design interview than that you wouldn't, though I'd also expect that you would be applying to a more senior role, rather than a junior role.

[dreamy spade]

Can somebody describe the difference between scrum and agile in simple definitions?

[stuck helm]

ok and you would still have Leetcode type of questions?

[smoky quest]

yep

[stuck helm]

ok thank you!

[smoky quest]

and/or take home projects

tbh, regardless of your level, I wouldn't trust a company where the technical skills aren't tested in some way

[stuck helm]

I thought FAANG didnt give take home projects.

[smoky quest]

FAANG would probably add up to 6 digit number of people. You can't make such generalizations to 100 of thousands of interviews

The hiring process may be completely different depending on the team, even within the same company

[stuck helm]

You are right, leetcode is just much more common at big companies.

I remember reading about salesforce that they had several different ways of doing technical interview.

[summer roost]

algorithms questions are very common for more junior roles, mostly because they're a level playing field on which candidates with different backgrounds can be evaluated relatively fairly

at junior levels, you're being evaluated more for your ability to learn and retain information than your expertise, and data structures and algorithms is something that everyone with a CS degree is expected to have learned

[stuck helm]

I see.

[vapid jay]

How does one learn task automation

I have experience in web automation using selenium and bs4. I was told automating the process is more efficient than automating the browser so does anyone have an idea where tl start

Or what topics/modules I should look at

[chilly ermine]

i want to make dream

[north island]

make dream

[plush spindle]

Pip install dream

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
However this has nothing to do with this channel since it's not related to #career-advice .You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[onyx locust]

oh, i thought that was only for programming issues, and since this is kinda an entrepreneurial step for me, i thought it would be fitting to get some serious advice from this channel

[weary juniper]

You can also ask in the off-topic channels

[onyx locust]

gotcha

[smoky quest]

this channel is more about serious questions related to careers

[queen tundra]

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
However this has nothing to do with this channel since it's not related to #career-advice .You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[woeful cliff]

#python-discussion

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
However this has nothing to do with this channel since it's not related to #career-advice .You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[woeful cliff]

ok

[smoky quest]

Spamming random channels will have the opposite effect of what you are looking for

[woeful cliff]

ok i was just trying to find it sorry

pls dont ban me

[undone yacht]

how do i make money without actually getting a full time job and without competing with to many programmers?

[tawdry oracle]

How to become a data scientist?

[buoyant seal]

freelancing
competion would be always though
in freelancing it is competion between skills and reputation. reputation is a value at a platform. getting first reputation could be involving no proffits
And in freelancing you are competeting with millions of indians always in English world

The best bet would usually to localize job search to local job market, which is not available to outside world then 🤔 u have better chances to get the job there then

[honest pivot]

Freelancing is probably gonna be more than a full time job if you actually want to make money. Especially at first.

[buoyant seal]

I guess u a right 🤔

so far the only sort of IT related job i had which was taking only part time, it was working in Desk Suppport / Computer Help for university where I was studying. It was really local only job, and it was part time for sure.

[near ocean]

There's only two ways youre not going to be competing with others:

1. You're a well connected, well known expert in your field and so your peers are few

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. At the moment i am working in company A
I got offer from company B and C
Companby B offers twice better salary, company C offers similar
Plus I am waiting for feedback from company D and thinking to go for more interviews

Current Company A i evaluate as low salary + slow career (slow skills growth, at least thrice slower than in a normal company, comparing to my previous job env)
Company B looks like, high salary (twice better), and a slow career growth
Company C looks like promising, high salary, and a promise for medium+ skills growth
Company A, B, C are all stable enterprise outsourcing companies 🤔
Company D offers high salary and high skills growth in less stable environment, and not outsourcing

I can't believe, but I think I should reject company B offer even if it has twice better salary than my current position I think.
I should wait at least to get company C I think
But they are all oursourcing, so company C can be a trap like company B
but glassdoor comparison evaluated company C much higher by its workers, so I think company C is the most acceptable solution out of outsourcing companies
But in the end I think I should not change a job until I acquire offer from startup/product company I think. No point to jump between companies? 🤔 Better to wait for the most satisfying job position and jumping straight to it

Salary matters twice less than good Skill Growth environment I think
And at the same time the jobs which Medium-High skill growth env, usually offer high salary as well. So there are no drawbacks

The only benefit of High salary jobs + Dead end skills growth, in being low entry by skills jobs? 🤔 That kind of makes it ridiculous though
They are low skills entry + almost dead end for skill growth... makes it sort of a trap

So as a final conclusion:, my best bet would be working in company A, while seeking job offer for High skills growth + Medium-High salary at same time.
in worst situation I should go to company C at least, since they are promising at least Medium+ Skills growth (Potentially High), + Medium-High Salary
(P.S> nobody promises any skills growth, that's just my evaluation of expected projects I'll have there, level of responsibilities / tech stack)

Plus I could try initiating inside the company A, project change process. Perhaps it would be possible. It could change skill growth to a higher score

[near ocean]

What other benefits are you considering? It shouldn't only be salary and potential skills growth

[near ocean]

I would (and have) considered (and taken) the higher paying position, even if the lower paying had me use a wider range of skills

[honest pivot]

It's easier to learn new skills in your free time than to earn more money in your free time

[near ocean]

If you make enough money however, its easier to learn new skills on the job than it is back home

For me at least, money comes first at this stage

[buoyant seal]

The thing is, it is often choice between Same salary, and different skill growth environment

therefore I don't really see a point in high salary offer with low skill growth, since as next thing I can encounter with high chance... high salary and high skill growth env at the same time

[near remnant]

my internship will start in 2 weeks...finally got the "offer". they recommended me to try to practice some debugging. I've used pytest and build fullstack apps before, but how should I practice debugging?

[buoyant seal]

I should just go for more interviews. I just had like 12 of them during current job search. If I would check 50+ interviews, I should encounter my job desire

[buoyant seal]

pytest, with writing more precise tests to localize the source of error
and attaching visual debugger from IDE is usually enough, hehe.

I don't think there is a better way to debug 🤔

Well, we of course deploy staging environment and run a different kind of tests to identify more errors, but you know, that's a different situation
Oh yes, we could be increasing observability to catch bugs better. So good logging / monitoring situation

[near ocean]

I dont get it how you guys get invited to so many interviews, I sent out so many apps and i've only gotten 3 tech interviews since I've graduated

What am i doing wrong lmao

[buoyant seal]

... that's a problem of satisfying metrics for which HRs look for.

they are mostly even automated

we need to satisfy automated HR resume web scrapping
then minimal HR human lookup
The optionally automated tech test
then human tech interview goes

[near remnant]

ah okay..I'll be debugging mostly on the first part of the internship but I've never really did any debugging...sadly.
Is it really hard to learn?

[near ocean]

Not really, you figure out how to attach a debugger in the ide of your choice and then its just stepping through code looking at your variables and how they change

[near remnant]

ah okay, I was using Jest way before when I started out with frontend, but just changed to Python / Backend this year so I have to find out stuff like that here as well haha. thanks!

trying to learn as much as possible before the internship starts

[buoyant seal]

visual debug is easy yeah, just configure your IDE properly.
You could be having debug during app run, or during pytest run.
Vscode allows to have visual debug during specific test in pytest run with going into third party libraries code or without it

writing tests to localize the error is harder, since it requries testable architecture preferably.

[near remnant]

Could you give me a small "roadmap" thing for this 2 weeks before my internship starts? for debugging / testing

[near ocean]

Should also look at Postman, curl, maybe swagger

[buoyant seal]

oh yeah, postman exists too, but with automated tests in pytest, it is nearly useless to use postman

it is always better to write something in pytest, than trying manual debug

[honest pivot]

I would use a combination. Write test cases for what you expect to happen. If you don't understand why code is failing a test case, then set some breakpoints in PyCharm and run in debug mode. Once you figure out what went wrong, consider whether you should write another test case to cover that specific situation and maybe catch it earlier. But this is getting into #unit-testing

[unreal moat]

Yeah, it also depends on which agile framework you want to stick to. Different frameworks require different testing scopes.

[near ocean]

TDD purists crying in a corner

[buoyant seal]

sounds to me like a personal project became already part of commericial experience then. Big enough plus to be added as achievement to CV i think.
Hard to say how big it is, but you know... bigger than having pet project, I would say it is a plus sort of equal to yet another project at work, but at the same time it could be lower or higher. It depends on details xD

[junior pewter]

guys im confused should junior python dev know git?

[near ocean]

Yes

[peak halo]

Yes

[buoyant seal]

definitely and without any doubts. https://learngitbranching.js.org/?locale=en_US highly recommending this visual tutorial

[peak halo]

you don't necessarily need to become a git poweruser, but chances are that literally every project you work on will be version controlled with git, so you should be comfortable making commits with good messages and navigating around the commit tree.

[delicate bane]

yeah might as well pick high skill growth then. also it would help with your future plans that youre considering btw

[crimson lichen]

agreed - git is everywhere.

[junior pewter]

i know how to create a branch, how to deal with pull request and how to commit and push changes, is this enough?

[near ocean]

That should be fine then i guess, would also be nice if you tried a rebase and maybe cherrypick

[peak halo]

probably. sounds like you'd be able to learn more git functionality if you ever need it.

[near ocean]

Never had to cherrypick at work but rebases should be fairly frequent

[buoyant seal]

I was offered to go to DevOps engineer interview. Not sure if I should go or not. At this career stage I think working as backend better
But at same time, becoming better DevOps engineer, getting its experience more... sounds like a not bad deal too

It looks like i fit all requirements, so not a bad chance to pass interview 🤔

But at the same time, it is offered by oursourcing/body-shop company... so not sure if I should go to it

I mean, common. It is body shop company. What's the point to go it. Better to have more interviews and land to a normal company

[peak halo]

you're asking if you should even interview for the position? why not? if you're in a position to be selective about where you work, you can also ask questions about the company.

[buoyant seal]

That's the problem. It is body shop company. No matter which questions you ask, you would be just placed into multiple different other companies. The company will be just a proxy to rob you of a salary

So kind of not a lot of point to ask about them

there are no standards, because standards will depend on companies in which you will be placed after that

So kind of question i ask myself, if they are worthy to go for interview? 🤔 will it be a good experience of just having their interview?

[near ocean]

If you say there are no standards why not go for highest pay anyway? You cant guarantee that the environment will be interesting but at least the number you'll be paid is on paper

[buoyant seal]

That's kind of a part of a problem

I am for now having offers with salaries with local companies, which would mean 30%+(or is it 35?) of salary will go to taxes

I think I should go for more interviews and having a job that is not having beraucratic pressence in current country

I will have only 10% taxes or even less than, which will increase salary by a good thousand of euro

xD yeah. Taxes make kind of a high salary as not that high from those body shop companies

I would benefit from same high salary more, if it is from some another country, because of the laws i would be paying less taxes then

kind of silly, but the laws are the laws

Anyway, I think it would be nice to go for interview anyway, I would get better feeling what is asked at devops positions 🤔

[buoyant seal]

well, concluding the numbers, taxes make those high pay offers as not really high then. Just as medium.
I therefore I should visit more interviews to get either trully high payment or trully high skill growth environment xD

I should only decide in addition if I want to risk going for DevOps positions or if I should go as backend person

I feel it kind of risky switching to DevOps at current stage of career 🤔

but at the same time DevOps could ensure high paid positions and less competion. which is good too

[near ocean]

You should definitely keep doing interviews, dont settle for the first better offer
But also dont keep searching for the ideal position because it'll never come

[buoyant seal]

Well. I will continue the search until I get a good enough offer then

[near ocean]

Its a tough one for sure, im not sure what i'd do in your place

Probably also ask here haha

[delicate bane]

if you go for devops, you can help me with mlops stuff jk

[buoyant seal]

I worked already with ml for master's degree, and not wishing to work with it again unless I have to

[delicate bane]

that is also high-paying area, just saying

[buoyant seal]

I don't see ML as creative process. It looks to me too much like a process with dumb luck and a lot of repetion to try different kind of multi layers in neural networks / augmented input data

[delicate bane]

people go all in on DL when sometimes they just need linear regression. i said some fighting words, now time to leave

[buoyant seal]

I know for sure that I wish to be backend person with architecuring projects and DevOps in addition in order to participate in infrastructure architecture better
DL is definitely out of my interests

[unreal moat]

It depends on how the company works with git. It's a good idea to have a solid understanding how git works in general + know the most frequent cmds.
Git is a flexible framework that allows to set up different workflows according to your needs. It's not a fixed process.
Ask 10 companies how they work with git and you get 10 different answers. 🙂

[dreamy spade]

Anybody?

[near ocean]

Scrum is an Agile methodology

[prime wren]

tax makes your salary not 100%

[unreal moat]

Whatever works for you best. Most important thing is that you're content at the end of each day!

[keen lodge]

Hey everyone ! Can anyone recommend few advanced projects or help me in doing them?
I basically want a partner or form a group in completing them. If interested DM me

[acoustic mist]

you don't. they're hiring you based on what you know. When they give you an offer they accept the possibility of paying u the max they have. And why would you settle for less? go big or go home.

[coarse crag]

It's not salary, the whole discussion ended with those percentage being the amount of hours he needs to work for. It's cultural matter in switzerland so we stopped the discussion.

[acoustic mist]

ahhhh

interesting, that isn't a thing here in the US

[coarse crag]

yeah, it's not common internationally as well

[acoustic mist]

so if 40 hr work week u dont actually work 40 hrs?

because at my company here ur just expected to work for 5-6 of 8

[near ocean]

I asked other swiss people and apparently its common there to have such flex contracts

[acoustic mist]

@coarse crag

[coarse crag]

i'm not from switzerland, sorry 🤣

[raven oracle]

Please help
please @ with reply

I have to give ranges when filling application
After internship, the company opened this role for me to apply to
Senior Back-End Developer
YoE: 1
The senior back-end developer average is 130.

However, this company offered Senior Developer roles to two friends with a 65 offer, same experience.
Company just offered a different friend 95 offer for Junior Developer, same experience.

This company will give me a low offer.

option 1
min 70-100
expected 100-125

option 2
min 100-125
expected 100-125

option 1 is secure, they won't throw out my application, however allows them to lowball me
option 2 is riskier, they may throw out my application, however this limits their ability to lowball me

[delicate bane]

doesnt it also depend on your background /YoE /what job you are aiming for

[raven oracle]

Updated the post with context

[smoky quest]

I typically put some weird stuff in there because it's just an application.
That said it's odd to offer a senior title for 1 yoe

[raven oracle]

Yeah, it is odd to offer a senior title for 1 yoe.
What do you think about option 1 or 2?

[smoky quest]

I would put something like 50-50

It's obviously too low to be realistic and it's not high that would be filtered

[raven oracle]

They give me these brackets that I can't edit 😢 so I can only select 70-100 or 100-125 for min range and expected range

So there is only option 1 or option 2.

[smoky quest]

then I would got for option 2 unless you are desperate

[amber notch]

Hey all! I want to get serious about learning python to position myself for a career. Are there recommended resources/strategies that this Discord recommends?

[smoky quest]

If you are in HS or college age, a degree would be the most efficient and rewarding route

[amber notch]

I'm 30. Going back to school for a CS degree is not in the cards.

[smoky quest]

Then in deacreasing order:

• Evening schools
• bootcamps
• self taught

If your current job is remotely related to CS/python, then going at it sideway from there could also be an option

[gritty rivet]

Think of it as an iterative process... look at jobs, look at your skills, work on your skills, apply for jobs, if you don't get the job you want then figure out what skills you need to work on, etc.

[summer roost]

does your current job employ programmers? Or does it have problems that could be solved or improved with the addition of automation?

[delicate bane]

ah godly beat me. slow typer woes

but yeah like recursive and godly said, you could leverage your past/current experience to maybe look into the same industry at least

which should also have programmers of some sort

[amber notch]

My company and industry are small, but growing. They could definitely benefit from automation. So look to gain the knowledge I'd need to automate some processes, and try to convince them to let me do that full-time?

[smoky quest]

You could start going through https://automatetheboringstuff.com/ to learn more about python and then looking for opportunities to apply it to your job? Managers/leadership is in general open to hear about ways where you can demonstrably improve some outcome or metric

[summer roost]

not necessarily full-time. Convincing them to let you do that at all gives you something that you can put on a resume.

if you can prove success in one endeavor, you can parlay that into getting permission to automate more things, making it become a bigger part of your job over time, and laying the ground work for you to one day do it full time, either for your current company or a different one

[amber notch]

Thanks for the advice all!

[brazen trail]

I will add, going back to school later in life is pretty nice

especially if work will pay for it

[summer roost]

those options aren't mutually exclusive, either. Trying to automate some stuff at your job while taking some night school classes might be a very nice path to follow.

[brazen trail]

I was a way better student in my 30s than I ever was when I was younger

[amber notch]

Unfortunately my higher education career is ruined by my early failures when I was 18-22. The colleges in my area/state do not give course forgiveness. My overall GPA is too low to be accepted into a CS program

[brazen trail]

you can take classes as a non-degree student to prove yourself and get into a program

[summer roost]

you could also consider doing a bootcamp or some other certificate program, independent of getting a degree.

[brazen trail]

I failed out of undergrad twice and have ended up with a masters degree in the end, so I know it's possible

[amber notch]

Does a degree really matter that much once you have work experience?

[summer roost]

once you have ~3 years of professional experience, most people won't care about the degree anymore.

but getting 3 years of professional software development experience without a degree requires a lot of luck, or someone to take a chance on you.

or a whole lot of hustle.

[amber notch]

What about internships? In your experience do they primarily hire college students?

[summer roost]

yes

[prisma ridge]

does not having any internship experience have a huge impact or is it more like oh it will affect it, but nothing to really work about type of thing as a new grad looking for my first position

[peak halo]

I was able to get a job without an internship (this was a year ago), but I had other experience that made me stand out for the sorts of positions to which I applied.

[true harness]

logically speaking, there aren't enough internships for everyone to get one, so while it might affect you, it doesn't mean you can't get a job without one

[polar forge]

CS at competitive unis is hella competitive ngl.

Feel kinda from all the competitive students around me.

[true harness]

that's why they call them competitive :P

[prisma ridge]

for me the reason I couldn't get one was because I had to play catch up due to me slacking off my first two years in uni if I wanted to graduate in four years

[polar forge]

But also does have benefits since more opportunity for projects, collaboration and resouecesm

[true harness]

yeah, the whole "you don't wanna be the smartest person" kinda thing

[polar forge]

There are so many resources ngl from research to professional stuff. Need to stay focused ngl

[summer roost]

doesn't seem worth worrying about at this point. As a new grad, you're not going to get an internship now, so asking someone to quantify how much easier your job hunt would be if you had gotten one in the past doesn't seem like it gives you any information that you could base future actions or decisions on

[prisma ridge]

I am not really worrying about it, It was mostly to see if someone else was in the same boat to see if they struggled a bit or not. I know you can't really compare, but it's nice to at least get some sort of estimate

[whole wasp]

Not a legal question is it common for presidents of companies to sign offer letters

[near ocean]

It depends, my first offer letter was signed by the founder because he drafted it, it was a startup
The second one was drafted by an HR person

So I would guess its not a standard thing

At bigger companies its probably just a template, it doesnt mean much and i wouldnt read into it or put any thought into who's signed it

[dreamy spade]

I read a reddit post that somebody keeps getting fired for sloppy work. I have no work experience and I am trying to complete my programming program in college. How can I not get fired for sloppy work if I ever get a job?

[whole wasp]

So the person who signs the offer letter is the one who wrote it?

[smoky quest]

Why would you do some sloppy work? How would you define sloppy work?

[polar forge]

Be honest.

When you're struggling, as supervisors.

Most sloppy people are deliberate.

[true harness]

or ignorant

[dreamy spade]

careless and unsystematic; excessively casual.

[true harness]

i don't see what the question is. if you can define what is getting people fired, why don't you just not do that

[smoky quest]

So you are saying that your work fits that definition?

[dreamy spade]

I'm saying I want to know how to produce great work so I don't get fired

[smoky quest]

Look at a career ladder like https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/overview.html and strive to work beyond your level

If you are lacking in some areas, then read about them and work on them as to get better

But to be clear, being fired for being sloppy is pretty extreme. That's not gonna happen to most people

[dreamy spade]

IC1 Software Engineer

Responsibility
Key Behaviors
Impact
I work with my manager to prioritize tasks that add the most value and deliver high-quality results for my customer
I understand and effectively participate in the core processes of my team (planning, on-call rotations, bug triage, metrics review, etc)

On-call rotations. This honestly sounds brutal

[smoky quest]

it sounds more scary than it actually is

[smoky quest]

there are also multiple career ladders published online but they will all be pretty similar. See https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/131XZCEb8LoXqy79WWrhCX4sBnGhCM1nAIz4feFZJsEo/edit?usp=sharing for instance

These terms typically apply to anything going through the company's resources (laptops, phones, network, wifi, etc.)

(it's pretty standard)

do any of these belong to the company in some way or go through the company in some way?

[whole wasp]

Logging into their website using my personal laptop...

[smoky quest]

Are you saying their website does not run on any of the company's resource?

[whole wasp]

Surely they can see and prolly know that but I meant like if I was using my phone on the same WiFi could they see that or if I visit other sites on my personal laptop

[whole wasp]

I’m using my own personal laptop. The website is hosted on I believe their server?

[smoky quest]

If none of these go through the company's resource, then they won't snoop on them

But that's tautological

considering their website is their resource, anything pertaining to that traffic could be snooped on

But it sounds more like a #networks question

[summer roost]

I'd think that would be uncommon except at very small companies

No, but if they make you use a VPN, they'd be able to see any traffic coming from the device that is connected to their VPN.

[whole wasp]

We aren’t using a vpn unless there is something built in their website when I log into it

[whole wasp]

Well tbh I wouldn’t care that they know im visiting their site

[summer roost]

There can't be. That isn't how websites work.

[whole wasp]

Does that mean the president wrote the offer letter? My company is a starter company

[summer roost]

At a tiny company like a startup, the president might do that.

[whole wasp]

So they can’t see what I do on my phone connected to the same personal WiFi that im using my personal laptop to do work on

[smoky quest]

They only care about what goes on on their network/machines

[whole wasp]

There wouldn’t be their network if ur wfh with personal laptop

[smoky quest]

then you got your answer

[summer roost]

Indeed. They don't consider your home Wi-Fi to be "our information systems"

But anything you do on their website would be.

[whole wasp]

Can u put a job on ur resume u only worked 3 months for

[ivory sluice]

yes of course

you get to choose what you include or exclude on your resume, it's your story to tell

[peak halo]

the point of your resume is to convince the reader to interview you. how you accomplish that is up to you. but if you only worked somewhere for three months, they might wonder if you left that job on bad terms, or if you actually gained any valuable experience working it, or if you'd leave them after three months.

though if the job was only supposed to go for three months, and this is obvious from the resume, then it's up to you if that's worth putting in your one page.

you want to work in retail? I worked in retail for seven years, and it was the worst thing I've ever experienced.

[whole wasp]

The job isn’t contract but Idt I’m gonna learn anything valuable here to improve my skills I’m just thinking of quitting and getting something I can level up on while working. But idk if I should lie and say it was a 3 month contract. I feel bad because I left my last job in a month because this one paid a lot more and now im hopping again...

[peak halo]

I'm Stelercus, and I'm not even remotely Jamaican. This is the career discussion channel on a programming server, so if you don't have any on-topic comments to make, please do something else.

[peak halo]

don't lie on the resume.

[whole wasp]

I’ve been doing so many interviewing including last round ones and I just get ghosted afterwards...

[whole wasp]

The only lie is saying it was a 3 month contract ur not writing that tho in the resume but how would they even find out?

[peak halo]

yeah, don't say that if it's not true.

[whole wasp]

Or

I can say due to budget cuts they let me go

[peak halo]

is that a lie?

[whole wasp]

How would they know?

[peak halo]

they might ask for a reference, or you might eventually let a detail slip that conflicts with your presented narrative.

[whole wasp]

I have been asked references I usually give them from my previous jobs

or just my first job

Also I was thinking of just putting years instead of actual months in the resume

[ivory sluice]

@whole wasp don't do that. i think you've been here long enough that we'd all say not to do that

[whole wasp]

Do what?

[ivory sluice]

are you saying you'd put 3 years?

or did you mean putting down 0.25 years?

[polar forge]

Embrace math major.

[ivory sluice]

your jobs should list month and year typically, so Jan 2022 - Mar 2022, for example

[polar forge]

We have it tough but it's worth it.

Lin alg is fun tho

[ivory sluice]

but is that applicable in your case? i assume you started your current job in 2022? there've only been 6 months in 2022 thus far. how much employment history do you have prior to 2022?

[whole wasp]

11 months

2022 is bad if I don’t put my current job on resume im at 5 month gap

[peak halo]

data science is pretty much entirely about math, but applying mathematical concepts isn't the same as doing calculations by hand in a math class.

[whole wasp]

I’ve only been at my current company for 2 months but I may be able to push it to 3 since they messed up my start date

When is a gap considered too big?

[peak halo]

A downside of formal education is that you can't learn at your own pace, so topics that you might enjoy in a low pressure setting can become arduous

[delicate bane]

its ok. you got this

[brazen trail]

use months if it helps, don't use months if that helps

[obtuse talon]

Yup
Physics and cs which u may have curiosity in becomes a liability for u

Can we say selling our source code to a company to earn money is also an earning option ??🤔

[summer roost]

Never. Gaps aren't a problem in and of themselves. At most, they're a curiosity. If you can't explain them in a way that satisfies someone's curiosity, then that'd be a problem.

[summer roost]

It's technically an option. It's not a common one. Companies tend to either pay for a license for some software plus ongoing support, or to buy the company that owns the rights to that software and acquire its developers, or to build their own competing software. Buying the source to something another company wrote is rare.

I'm only personally aware of it happening in one case, and that's where a company was licensing usage rights and support for some software from another company, and that other company was headquartered in the world trade center until 9/11.

[obtuse talon]

I see
Thanks dude !

[whole wasp]

I just feel like if an employer sees a 5 month gap they won’t even give me an interview which is why I wanted to use years

But I still don’t know if years is better than months or it doesn’t matter

[summer roost]

What do you base that feeling on?

[whole wasp]

Because they would rather take someone that has no gaps

[summer roost]

Why is that better?

[whole wasp]

And how would I even explain that long of a gap

It shows that someone can hold jobs?

[summer roost]

The person with a 5 month gap may have had a health issue, or a religious pilgrimage, or a coding boot camp, or any of a million other things that wouldn't reflect poorly on their ability to hold a job.

If you have a 5 month gap, you'll be asked about it. If you don't have a good answer to why you had a gap, that will reflect poorly.

If your answer is "I lost my job and no one would hire me", obviously that's bad.

[remote skiff]

Given the wide array of options for work that tech people have you can always say you were trying your hand at entrepreneurship. And also you could actually try your hand at entrepreneurship. You don't necessarily even need to have a business just contract yourself out as a service.

[whole wasp]

In that case could u say u were trying out to become a used cars salesman? Idk if they would want proof of that.

[whole wasp]

It just feels like employers see a gap and they think u become rusty then. Also if u say any of those reasons or any other valid reasons how can they even verify it? For me I’ve been applying for months for no luck can I say that but that just makes me look bad

Also to make this better should I just put my Job I worked for 3 months and say I was laid off due to budgeting so it keeps the gap off

I’ve done so many interviews that led no where, jobs that I’m clearly qualified of over qualified for

[smoky quest]

That may come from your attitude. Interviewers aren't stupid. They have talked to hundreds and thousands of applicants over the course of their career. That helps develop an intuition when someone is lying or giving weird vibes and it's so easy to spot once you got that vibe

[whole wasp]

I haven’t lied about anything so I’m not sure why ur assuming that

[smoky quest]

the whole discussion above is about lying on your resume. So it was easy for me to assume so.
The same thing could happen in an interview based on the type of questions you ask

[whole wasp]

There was never a lie I only asked about changing months to years which is just leaving the months out

[smoky quest]

If you weren't lying and were (over) qualified, then there may be something in the way you answered or the questions you asked

Interviews have two parts:

• Technical
• Behavioral

If the technical is fine, all else being equals, it points at the behavioral

[whole wasp]

Technical is prolly were I messed up at sometimes I did get questions wrong

Idt id have a problem In behavioral

[obtuse talon]

humor plays an important role

[smoky quest]

To be honest, the type of questions you ask here are sometimes odd.
If you behave the same with employers, as someone hiring people, I would avoid you

[whole wasp]

I don’t ask questions just answer theirs

[smoky quest]

I am just giving you some honest feedback.
Regardless, doing some retrospective about your own interviews may help you pinpoint your shortcomings and why you get ghosted.

[obtuse talon]

were u also an interviewer at some time ?

[delicate bane]

where is the one where companies take open source code and then turn it into a product on their platform

[smoky quest]

yeah

[delicate bane]

[obtuse talon]

can i ask for some tips ?

[smoky quest]

Go for it

[whole wasp]

Idt my questions are odd I just end up in weird situations and I’m trying to usually ask for advice or understand what I should do. If I had asked advice before I wouldn’t even be in those spots which is why my questions may seem like a lot

[smoky quest]

I can point it out to you next time I see one if you want

[whole wasp]

Sure it would be great

Unless they are just giving me hope I usually make it to last round interviews

as I can articulate explain the questions they ask in detail well

[obtuse talon]

i think u r confused

[whole wasp]

Sometimes

Also a lack of experience in many aspects.

[dense mesa]

@whole wasp people may be giving you feedback regarding being honest on your CV/in interviews because you've previously attempted to deceive recruiters

[summer roost]

I am as well.

[summer roost]

Sure, you could. It'll sound weird. They'll probably judge you for that answer.

[whole wasp]

And when have I ever deceived recruiters?

[summer roost]

It's hard to say, but you suggested a willingness to do so multiple times over the last few hours

[dense mesa]

@whole wasp here lol

[obtuse talon]

so i found an overthinker

[whole wasp]

The vax stuff is different that had to with health, I just wasn’t sure if it’s effects.

I didn’t delete the message

[whole wasp]

I can agree to this. I was just very sick when Covid came so I have been caring about my health a lot

[dense mesa]

My bad for misunderstanding, I think just practice online and with friends/family to make sure interview nerves don't get to you

[obtuse talon]

so u are an introvert

[dense mesa]

?

[whole wasp]

Also I’m vaxxed now lol

[leaden thicket]

Hi there, I wanted to ask a question. I just finished my degree and I am looking for a job:
When I get recruiters contacting me the process goes great and I have no problem with the interview. The issue is that I have a very low contact rate from companies, what could I do to get attention?, to what extent projects/portfolios can influence this?.
Thank you very much.

[near ocean]

Generally, low response rate means theres something wrong with your CV
You could post a clean version here with contact and personal details blurred out for feedback

[leaden thicket]

hmmm well... It's kinda empty... I just started out, I have not much to fill it with 😦

[near ocean]

Do you have internship experience?

[leaden thicket]

yes! But in my country we only do 3 months internships and the end of our degree

(I got hired by the company, but they pay minimum wage)

[near ocean]

Ok, I would do:

• any professional experience
• education
• personal projects
  Maybe a couple lines at the top as a summary and a single line for skills and tech you've used/are familiar with

[leaden thicket]

Gotcha, I'm going to try that and report back in a few weeks. Thank you!

[near remnant]

what if I get called by a recruiter while I'm on an interview, so I can't answer the phone? lmao

[near remnant]

[near ocean]

You call them back when youre done?

[pine topaz]

Hey guys, newb here, looking at what jobs / career paths working in python can lead to...
... how does one get from no knowledge to a role like this :
https://www.totaljobs.com/job/senior-python-developer/intec-select-job97860009

[near remnant]

its a senior position

[coral harbor]

hey everyone, basically I am student with customer service & business mgmt background and was hoping to be a Business Analyst / Data Analyst

I am currently doing some self-taugh courses such as advanced excel and attending python courses and language 'R' in the future

[peak halo]

@coral harbor do you have a question to go along with this information?

[coral harbor]

oops! im just wondering how could i start off so that i would be able to enter entry level to gain experience

and going the right path ofc

[peak halo]

@coral harbor learning R would be superfluous if you're already learning Python's data science stack, at least in my opinion. R is a data science-oriented programming language, but it's used primarily by non-CS people. Like, I know a non-computational linguist who uses it.

Do you work in a management position now? would it be possible to transition to an analyst position within your current company?

[coral harbor]

ah! i am currently a student whom just graduated and is currently looking for job

[regal spear]

hello everyone

[delicate bane]

nice you should look for a visualization software to complement your skill set if you are aiming for business analyst / data analyst roles; something similar to like tableau, powerbi, etc.

question.

if i accept a position that has "junior" in it, how long, on average, would i have that "junior" in the job title (i know this is dif depending on companies and whatnot)

still i am curious

[ivory dust]

It depends on the company and your performance/skills shown

[peak halo]

if you don't have any professional experience, and you want to work as a data scientist, but your degree is not related to data science, I don't think you'll be able to get a job as a data scientist unless you get a masters degree in something that is.

[copper anvil]

Do some software engineers really earn millions a year

@peak halo Do you earn millions

[dense mesa]

Yes

[copper anvil]

Damn

Is it per year or is it like a one time thing

[gilded valley]

the creator of Photopea earns > 1m$ per year

[peak halo]

I do not. If I did, I wouldn't be hanging out on Discord.

I'm sure some developers get paid seven figures, but that's not at all common.

You've asked about this several times. Is there any reason you're so interested in this?

[copper anvil]

No, I'm saying a person who didn't create something big

[copper anvil]

Yes, it's just interesting

[delicate bane]

is it?

[copper anvil]

My relatives want me to earn money by doing something big, but I'm hoping for programming related jobs, so just finding out some stuff, even though a person like me will not get paid millions

[peak halo]

it would be nice if you end up making millions, but if you do, it will probably have a lot to do with luck. Mid career software developers in the US often make six figures, and that's realistically attainable.

[delicate bane]

how you want to live your life vs. how your relatives want you to live your life is a complex and hairy topic that has to do with much introspection

[copper anvil]

Hopefully. My goal is to one day earn six-figures, and I'm working towards it by doing CodeWars. I don't know if it will be worth it, but it's fun brainstorming ways to solve a problem.

[delicate bane]

codewars is my personal favorite out of all them; mostly bc they also value the creative solutions that you would rarely see irl

[copper anvil]

I'd rather do something small and keep my mental peace than do something big and be depressed

[copper anvil]

👀

Anyways, I have to eat dinner, I will be back in a bit, thank you guys for your time

[delicate bane]

[peak halo]

there might be codewars-style questions when you interview, but learning to solve those questions don't really do anything except make you better at solving those kinds of questions.

If you're a teenager in Europe, and you want to become a programmer, you should probably focus on doing well in school so that you'll be a competitive applicant for computer science programs.

[unreal moat]

Yeah, you need to understand your users and the impact of your apps. It's great if one can solve the toughest math problems, but that doesn't help if no one wants to use your apps. 🙂

[true harness]

if i have two job offers, how do i tell one company that i've chosen the other one?

[copper anvil]

Apologize and tell it

[copper anvil]

I'm a teenager in UAE

So idk what do I do in here

[pastel zephyr]

Aren't we all

[copper anvil]

Your name itself says how much of a confused soul you are

[pastel zephyr]

Oui Oui

[peak halo]

Me either

[copper anvil]

Do you earn six figures

If you want, you can choose not to answer the question, sorry if I'm being personal

[peak halo]

not sure it matters if I do or not. I'm just one data point.

[dreamy spade]

I was looking at a job posting and an excerpt of it is this:

Pay Rate:
0-0 $/hour
Position Type:
Contract
Start Date:
07/11/2022
End Date:
12/23/2022

Why in the world would a company put $0 an hour?

[near ocean]

HR people being sloppy

[delicate bane]

same tbh

[smoky quest]

Either a call or an email but something along the lines of while you have appreciated very much the time spent with the team and how awesome they are, you have decided to go with another company. And you wish them the best

[polar forge]

Become a quant.

[smoky quest]

Starting salaries in the USA for new grads is already 6 figures.
Outside of building your own business as mentioned earlier, a very common route for engineers is through stock/options. Just look at Netflix/Tesla/Amazon/Google stock had you joined them 4-5 years ago and got 100k$ worth of shares. In general, the larger the compensation, the more stock heavy it will be.

[polar forge]

Nah, you wouldn't apologise lol, just that you appreciate the offer and accept the other one.

[near remnant]

how much does an internship help landing the first full-time job?

[delicate bane]

[unreal moat]

If the internship isn't related to the full-time position, it likely won't help a lot. It also depends on how one defines help.

[near remnant]

I've received an offer for a 3 months long internship and I was just thinking if its worth taking. I just graduated with my master's so I'm mainly looking for full-time jobs but this company is really good. Python, Django, Docker, PostgreSQL stack(mainly)

[honest pivot]

After all you've been posting in here asking about when you'll get the offer, now you're not sure if you should take it?

[near remnant]

😂

I feel like I'm an idiot..

[unreal moat]

Take it, if it's paid. 🙂

[honest pivot]

Have you had offers for full time jobs?

[near remnant]

I'm in interviews with 3 other companies, waiting

[honest pivot]

Then it depends whether you can get the stars to align

[near remnant]

I thought accepting this internship and maybe start applying for jobs after 1-2 months. so I will have internship to put in my resume and also will be "hopefully" easier to get a job

[honest pivot]

Is it paid?

[near remnant]

It is not, 3 months unpaid internship and they hire me then as a junior which will be ofc paid, around 95-100K

full remote

[honest pivot]

Is that what it says in the contract?

[near remnant]

I'm about to receive the contract this week, haven't seen it yet

But feel like, if I don't get anything, its better than nothing...

[honest pivot]

"Do some free work now, and we might hire you in 3 months" is pretty weak. I would continue applying for full time jobs the whole time, don't wait 1-2 months

[near remnant]

Yeah, I get you but I have zero experience, only projects, its quite hard to get a junior job without CS degree. I have economics degrees...

[gilded valley]

I'm not looking to take part in the discussion, but they're also illegal in the UK and the US

[delicate bane]

[gilded valley]

So advice for anyone just reading: a company offering unpaid internships is a shit company

[near remnant]

if its illegal then why are there so many unpaid interns in UK and US?

[honest pivot]

I'm not sure about the UK, but in the US there are some caveats, if the main purpose of the internship is to teach the intern. These caveats are heavily abused.

[delicate bane]

idk but theyre also nonprofit orgs. i did an unpaid internship with one such org once since i believed in their mission.

its not illegal if its a 501 tax-exempt org.

[near remnant]

unpaid internship is not good from a social point of view because the poorer can’t afford it while those who can afford it are favored

life is unfair but this is why people hate it

[gilded valley]

That same caveat exists in UK law. But it's made clear what delineates work vs training and it's very clear cut

[delicate bane]

yeah otherwise companies can get in big trouble with labor laws

[near remnant]

Mate, I'm in my early-mid 20s, I'm going to work for at least 40-45 years from now...don't think 3 months will kill me

[honest pivot]

In reality, companies do not get in as much trouble for labor laws as they probably should

[near remnant]

Maybe, I'm just too realist

[honest pivot]

If you think it's the right thing for you to do to get your foot in the door, then that's up to you. I would say still keep applying to full time jobs. I would consider any job not paying me as not "real" in some sense.

[near remnant]

Sure mate, I totally understand your point and I thank for your input. Honestly, we'll see! 🙂

[smoky quest]

unpaid internships aren't illegal in the USA, but ianal

Disguising free work as an internship would be illegal.

[buoyant seal]

6 fixures for just new grads? 🤔 Well, I guess I have a really big room ahead to expand my salary then.

hopefully it would scratch at least this bar in some close years

[vapid jay]

someone pls help me set up this : https://github.com/spykard/tiktok-autoclaimer

[buoyant seal]

disgusting. Lets have it deleted according to the rule #5. <@&831776746206265384>

[smoky quest]

hopefully sooner!

[buoyant seal]

i do hope too. I went for already sort of ridiculous moves to have it.
Already master's degree
and backend developer with being devops engineer in addition.
Learning all the essential SWE stuff i missed, at the moment learning different code architecture stuff of another type.
Learned already design of software products and just wishing to expand my knowledge about it further
Learned how to have all the infra automatedly tested and deployed in different ways, including kubernetes, and following the last things popular in that world

I mean common. Software engineer with Backend specialization, which is willing to architect solutions while knowing DevOps engineer / infrastructure stuff.I should be certainly able to scratch at least a salary of new grads one day. xD

[smoky quest]

if you are in the USA, then someone is definitely taking advantage of you

[buoyant seal]

well. No. in third world country.

[smoky quest]

here is the difference, sadly

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. I guess my plans to go to Canada should not be canceled then. Going to canada should theoretically open me to a US market as well.
Remaining in third world country will limit my salary forever 🤔 Or may be from some point of time it will not matter from which i am country

[smoky quest]

Despite Canada's having a much lower salary than the USA, its quality of life is pretty good from what I heard

so not necessarily a bad place to end up in, even if you don't make it all the way to the USA