career-advice

[delicate bane]

also this sounds like how some peeps do "research"

[peak halo]

@jagged ibex this server is not a notice board

[jagged ibex]

oh i am sorry

got it @peak halo

new to discord servers

[plush spindle]

I am done with the basics of python and have made 3 good projects. ( a game, some data visualization and a website)
I was thinking of learning Data visualization in depth
Should I do that or make more projects ?

[delicate bane]

what is your goal?

[carmine orbit]

Hello, I am Kyle, I'm fairly new to coding and it's something that I am trying hard to be good at especially since I'm from a developing country with not many opportunities. Can anyone direct me to any resources that may be useful or even a mentor if possible?

[balmy spade]

This is not the place to advertise nor offer payment for services. Please see the #rules for the server.

[vapid jay]

I’m working on becoming a data scientist/ML. I live in Germany. Between Germany and Canada, which country has a better career opportunities for me please ?

[plush spindle]

Idk bro
I just want to find something fun

[ocean stream]

Hey im attempting to become an ai dev, im wanting to know more about it and wondering what i should focus on more math or cs

[delicate bane]

if you just want to do something fun, then feel free to pursue what you like.

remember though, you are asking this in #career-advice, so everything has the context of being career-oriented, thats why i asked what your goal(s) are

[plush spindle]

I see 🙏

[delicate bane]

btw i recommend "storytelling with data" by cole knaflic if youre serious about data viz

[golden sphinx]

I'm sorry for what I'm gonna say. I just have some mental breakdown and ... It kinda destroyed me.
I wanna change career to IT so badly. Cause I'm not belong to my current career. Every single moment I work on it, it's like a torture to me. But ... everywhere I go, I hear that "Coding have short lifespan", "Too late to get jobs". I'm 25 this years and gonna be 26 soon. Time is klling me. I don't know what to do anymore. I have my whole family behind me, I can't take a risk that I don't know where it will bring me to ...

[dim pelican]

Im 25 with a wife and three kids. Currently teaching myself python and some additional techs like sql and git. Someone i went to school with is trying to get me a job as a SWE and my sister in law husband is trying to get me a job in drafting. Its never too late. It will feel like hell with how slow the progression is but keep working on it and youll get there. If you have the time, try signing up for college or a boot camp. If not, there are resources here that can help. Harvard has a python course for free over on edx that will take you from the basics to exceptions, file interactions and unit testing.

[golden sphinx]

At least you have someone help you to get a jobs. Currently I'm alone. No one help me at all. All people around me know nothing about IT. They keep say "Coding don't need certification to get a jobs". But all the jobs I see ask for it. I'm stuck and spinning like a wheel right now.

[dim pelican]

If you are looking for a cert to get into tech, try something like CompTIA A+. The hardest part is getting your foot in the door. After that, its seems easier to hop around from what ive seen. I personally have experienced ease of hopping around within manufacturing so i know its something that happens.

What about a bootcamp or online college?

Also do you have time for things like meet ups? Networking is important @golden sphinx

[golden sphinx]

Most of jobs at my place only care about Cert from collegue.

[dim pelican]

CompTIA is basically industry standard. Same with things like Amazon AWS and Microsoft Azure.

[smoky quest]

also IT wouldn't include coding typically

And to answer the original question, I will +1 @ Captain Quail. There are plenty of folks joining the field at your age and even older

[dim pelican]

True. Coding is a very specific aspect of IT. Things like help desk, desktop tech, data analyst (which does require some coding but nothing like a software engineer), etc.

[smoky quest]

@golden sphinx should do a bit of research to narrow down their interest. Otherwise, if they jump on comptia+ cert and then expect to get a swe job, they may get surprised

[dim pelican]

True. I was thinking more along the lines of entering IT in a more general way and narrowing down after in the field since by then one would have the work history on paper which seems to be the only thing people care about anymore.

[smoky quest]

There is more than one way to skin a cat.
However the sooner they identify their goal, the more efficient they can be in reaching it

[dim pelican]

Speaking of ive decided to recreate a management system I use as work as a major project. Hopefully i can pitch the alpha to my job and they make up some bs supplementary position for it. Not even wanting a pay raise, just the sub-title lol

[smoky quest]

that sounds like an awesome way to build and demonstrate the experience

[dim pelican]

At the very least some sql and gui. If they actually take me seriously some async since literally no software ive used seems to allow multiple connections unless its the main pc and the pc connected directly to it (which can literally never be used at the same since since they are both for one person)

[smoky quest]

The main thing I recommend in these situations is to focus on the minimum thing that will get them hooked in so they continue to fund it

Otherwise it's common to let an employee play with something for a month and then cut it off, even if it would have saved millions of dollars 1month and 1day in

[golden sphinx]

If I'm new to IT, should I really try to find a jobs with Python ? I rarely to see jobs req ask for Python

[smoky quest]

Walk backward from your goal. Your question is like "should I learn to use a screwdriver first?"
Programming languages are just tools and means to an end

[dim pelican]

Wouldnt save, ideally would make. Its not a service we currently provide but i believe they could sell it like "You use our ink, time to check out our software and machine" lol

[dim pelican]

Yeah python would be an aspect of a job. So for example, if you are a Dev Ops you would use python for scripts to automate your job or if you are a data analyst python would be used to parse and organize data. It isnt the job itself but rather something used often.

[plush spindle]

Damn it's a short book and seems to be quite good too
Thanks rex 🙏 🙏 🙏

[near remnant]

I hate HR so much, its insane

[near ocean]

What happened

[near remnant]

Nothing, just hate HR

[near ocean]

You cant advertise here

Ok? Its against the rules to advertise here

[smoky gale]

this is the career discussion channel?

[near ocean]

Read the rules

[smoky gale]

ok which channel should i post it in then

[near ocean]

None, you cant advertise in the server

[ivory sluice]

hi, i've deleted your earlier messages. please give #rules a read

[slate badger]

I picked computer science and engineering as my major everyone yayy

We learned python in our freshman

And there is a lecture CS201 which contains c++ next year

[brazen trail]

I hope your semester goes well

[trim tide]

I am a student fresh out of school who's enrolling in university soon since the university I'm gonna be enrolling in is not most Prestigious due to not having the best of marks I decided to learn python and have been working on it for past 3 months and have build small python projects like ( a pygame, a calculator with a ui and a discord bot) what should I be focusing on in the future to build a portfolio for my future interviews or opportunities or what not

I have also enrolled myself into a udemy DSA course and trying to learn frontend web development

[brazen trail]

I'd say focus on your class assignments, you can put them on github (maybe as a private repo depending on how you feel and what the school rules are?), if you want to learn about how all that works.

like, it's college, just focus on your classes *shrug* maybe after a year or two there will be a project you want to work on, or you can start contributing to open source, etc, but the most important thing is to do well in your classes

[trim tide]

alright I shall be focusing on my class courses when the uni finally starts

[brazen trail]

you don't have to figure everything out right now, you got time 🙂

[trim tide]

with that I shall also try to keep developing my skills

[brazen trail]

I hope it goes well!

[vague plover]

hello uh i want to learn py but haven't decided which domain to persue. Any suggestions

[near ocean]

!resources learn first, pick later

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[near remnant]

i just did my first coding test, never did any leetcode or anything. the coding test was 3 different problems. I solved the first one with 100% score, the second one with 77% but the last one is 0% because I never used NumPy.., wow this gave me confidence even tho I'll won't qualify for the next interview.

Yeah, it was quite nice tho. I will grind leetcode from now. Im just a bit sad because I just graduated and I won't really land a job for a couple of months. I have projects tho..

Gave me a bit confidence.

[near ocean]

thats how it works, and i wouldnt suggest "grinding" leetcode, do a couple every day instead
if you grind it you'll get bored of it super early and then all that effort will be wasted

its about consistent practice, not powering through 30 puzzles a day

[near remnant]

yeah, sure. hope I can land a job with my fullstack project an other projects and consistent leetcode practice

unfortunately, I have applied economics bsc and supply chain management msc..found out that I'm really interested in programming too late haha

[indigo ibex]

web development ig

[nimble salmon]

guys i'm currently pursuing Electronic Engineering.(Just finished first year)
I wanna specialise in the Applied machine learning/Robotics sector in the future
I know python and matlab. What other programming language should I learn.
(my uni does not teach any yeah ik surprising but they expect us to learn it ourself)

I have summer rn 3 months long so wanna make good use of it

[ashen oar]

Any ideas on the best/most beneficial entry-level career path after getting comfortable with python? My background is in the health field, but I have enjoyed learning python a lot and am thinking of pursuing a position where I am able to apply it! Thanks everyone, this page has been super helpful so far 🙂

[nimble salmon]

healthcare statistics or Data Science maybe

[peak halo]

your time is probably better spent learning how to do specific things. because even if you know Python, for example, that doesn't mean that you know how to train a model that can be deployed in a robot.

I work for a research company, and all our ML code is in Python. I'm not sure what language is used on the actual autonomous devices, but it's probably C++.

[delicate bane]

robots powered by rust when

[graceful mason]

Usually C++ or C

[delicate bane]

you should look into reinforcement learning. i think getting a good foundation there would help with your future goals (vs. learning another programming language)

[nimble salmon]

What would those specific things be, rn my degree is helping me get the hardware basics while Im getting the ML skills in my own time. I'm probably aiming to do an applied ML masters/PhD after I'm done with my bachelors. RN im kinda confused if i need a programming language for some of the hardware asw. I am supposed to be dealing with microcontrollers in second year but idk if the experience I gain from that will suffice

[summer roost]

my uni does not teach any [programming language]
yeah ik surprising but they expect us to learn it ourself
That's not very surprising. Even for CS, unis typically only teach around 1 language, in the first year, and then expect you to be able to learn anything else yourself. They might have a course on different types of programming languages where you learn a few different ones, but that'd be for the exclusive purpose of learning weird languages, not ones that tend to be used in production.

if you're interested in working with hardware, C is probably the single most useful language to learn, and C++ is probably second.

[nimble salmon]

Would I need both or will one work

[summer roost]

Start with C, learn C++ later if you want.

pretty much all microcontrollers support C. Some things are easier to do in C++, but embedded developers tend to only use a small subset of C++ anyway, and lots of embedded devices have shitty compilers that don't support modern C++ well

and C++ is very nearly a superset of C, so you can't really fully learn C++ without also knowing C.

[paper trellis]

Hey guys! I’m pursuing bca, rn I’m havin summer vacation, thinkin to have python practice from beginning level, any suggestions from which source should i start?

Also for which one should i got first java or python?

Any suggestions?

Ik lil about python but I’m confused which one should i do first!

[near remnant]

lmao, my friend got invited to a "codility" test, online test. and he had to do it on his own, at home. he cheated all the questions with his phone and got an offer. lmao...I mean, if they allow everyone to do the test from home without camera than yeah, 99% of people will cheat

I just don't get it, what is the point of the test then...who can cheat better? or what?

[smoky quest]

That will be an expensive lesson for that employer

[near remnant]

I read some statistics about this, 50% of people, cheat on OAs

[smoky quest]

Which language doesn't really matter. The main thing is to build stuff. Try to make a mobile app, a backend, a robot, a raytracer or even a game!

[smoky quest]

it's also weird he got an offer so quickly. In general, the online assessments are just the first step to filter out the obviously unfit

[near remnant]

I meant it like he passed the OA like this, but he went through the whole interview process

[vapid jay]

Anyone notice when talking eith hr they are more insistent on your technical skills but the technical team asks more about your behaviour

I think its cuz tech team cares more about your effort and interchangeable skills but hr doesnt know thst you can learn other techs much easily/dont have to do leetcode to be a good engineer

[light coral]

hello

is btec hnd in computing worth it

can I get a job with it

[dense mesa]

Not particularly

[smoky quest]

hr doesn't know or care about leetcode

[light coral]

Then should I go for a Top up degree

[dense mesa]

Would be helpful to know your current experience and plans

[light coral]

I have btec hnd in computing

Want to become a software engineer

Dont have a lot of money too

[dense mesa]

If you already have one, why ask if one is worth it?

[light coral]

I want continue the higher levels of the diploma

[dense mesa]

You may be better off trying to get more academic stuff

[patent grove]

I would go with python

Then u can also do all ur coding interviews with python as well

[paper trellis]

Okay

[neon dirge]

!paste

[velvet flicker]

anyone know of coding roles that require business backgrounds, say tech consulting?

[graceful mason]

Maybe something like a business intelligence analyst? generally just data analysis roles rather than software

[rugged bobcat]

I have a good question to ask, if I get a associates degree in computer science and apply to a job that says bachelor's degree required, what are the chances that they will give me a chance to prove that I am as good as someone with a bachelor's. Just asking for the future.

[smoky quest]

It could go from implausible to somewhat likely depending on the appeal of your resume, your experience and projects, and how you stand out relative to all the other applicants

[peak halo]

it will also depend on the position. Though when I was job hunting, what I usually saw was "masters, or bachelors with experience". I never saw "bachelors, or associates with experience".

[storm nymph]

Can you be a software engineer and or program by knowing only python

[smoky quest]

no. There is more to being a software engineer than knowing a single programming language

[sharp gulch]

What's the difference between software developer and software engineer?

[smoky quest]

They are pretty much used interchangeably. However software developer would have more emphasis on the writing code part while software engineer would be more broad

[sharp gulch]

What do you mean by "more broad"?

[smoky quest]

it encompasses activities beyond just writing code

[sharp gulch]

Ah alright I see thanks

[sharp gulch]

What are some of the "activities"?

[rotund granite]

my humble and simple answer : software developer - does the coding , software engineer - does the hard logic part

[near ocean]

The two terms are interchangeable and equivalent

[ivory sluice]

i thought in parts of europe that "engineer" is a protected title that had specific degree requirements?

including software engineers?

[sharp gulch]

Alright thank you

[sharp gulch]

Ah alright, I saw someone using them as if they were different so I got curious. Thank you for your answer

[dense mesa]

Engineer does but not for software

[smoky quest]

it does in some countries ("software engineer")

[gilded valley]

Apparently Canada does it

I also vaguely remember hearing that France protects the "Software Engineer" title as well

[dense mesa]

Ah ok fair enough

[near ocean]

In my personal experience looking for jobs, engineer comes with a higher pay for some reason, boomers use it to refer to low level things while anyone else is a mere developer

Like so,

[vapid jay]

tbh ill cap my income at 50k

the taxes raise after a while so i dont want nothing to do with that. id rather have the company purchase stuff for me

[near ocean]

Thats not how taxes work, youre not going to earn less

[vapid jay]

but they take 40% after 50k right? half your money

[near ocean]

They take 40% of however much you make over that, not the whole amount

[gilded valley]

I would suggest watching this video https://youtu.be/IzsjRFV1WDY?t=66

[near ocean]

It depends on the country
In the UK you get around 13k tax free "allowance" then 20% up to like 49k(?) then 40% for whatever you make over the 50ishk mark

Hate how they call it allowance, shut up boris youre not my dad

[frail summit]

i have a question , i have one month left before i enrolled into college

the question is would you guys prefer it or cs?

[gilded valley]

in the uk 0-12.5k is taxed at 0% 12.5-50k is taxed at 20% 50-SomethingElse is taxed at 40% and SomethingElse-Infinity is taxed at 45%
I forget what the additional rate (SomethingElse) threshold actually is

[near ocean]

Youre in a python server so im gonna go with CS

[frail summit]

👍

may i know the difference between it and cs

[near ocean]

You'd have to look at the syllabi in the courses youre looking at taking
Generally CS people go on to become software developers, ie, design and implement features for X product at Y company

[frail summit]

but for the future , between cs and it which have a wider scope

[near ocean]

Probably CS, but im not sure what the IT job description looks like

[frail summit]

i see btw im new to coding here is there any videos you could recommend so i could learn

[near ocean]

!resources theres tons of cool guides and other resources here

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[frail summit]

thx alot man 🙏

[vapid jay]

Yes. Only 60%

You might as well ask your employer to burn their cash. Id rather stay at that mark and do a comfortable job

[pearl saddle]

is it good to have software developement skills, like programming and skills of a data analyst both, cuz I have a opportunity to learn both for my graduation degree, is there a job out there which would require both of these skills or they can't be used both at the same time?

[vapid jay]

Yes

[pearl saddle]

its like this, i can do 2 degrees at the same time, one is for data science and the second one is for cs, should I go for both? Given i learn stuff outside the school as well

[vapid jay]

The school for cs and data science is often very easy go for both

So for 80 k ill get 18k out of the extra 30. 12k goes to trash.

[delicate bane]

"allowance"

💀

[near ocean]

it do be like that sometimes

you wouldnt rather have 54,250.10 (80k) over 37,198.10 (50k) ?

i just realised that looks hella bad, i have friends paying more in tax than what i earn gross

[honest pivot]

I would love to pay higher taxes if it means having higher take-home, like what kind of question even is that?

[vapid jay]

Get uk'd

[near ocean]

dont turn down offers because they move you up a tax bracket, you always take home more regardless of bracket
the only thing that changes is the rate at which your take home pay increases, but it never goes negative

[near remnant]

my buddy cheated on OA (hackerrank) today and he passed, got invited to next interview, hes asking me if he should take it or not. what should I recommend him? I'm confused bcus im newbie

[near ocean]

ideally, ethically, no

if he cant cut it and get in the proper way, he should give up the interview and go back to studying
we don't need people cheating us out of jobs

[near remnant]

he wrote the code himself but there were theoretical questions with multiple choices, so he googled some of them like 3 out of 7 lmao

[finite otter]

daam

[near remnant]

what

[finite otter]

nothing

[near remnant]

tell me

[near ocean]

we dont know your friend, it still sounds like cheating, it wouldnt sit right with me to tell you to tell him to keep going

[near remnant]

the problem is, if you think about it, if the company / online test allows everyone to actually cheat, use their phone or something, then it means that people will cheat, so if you won't, you will be behind, either way

so if you don't cheat when it's basically "allowed" and others do it, you won't get interviewed

[dense mesa]

Mate everyone cheats them lol

[near ocean]

its not allowed, just cause you can doesnt mean you should

if you were allowed to look things up they would tell you 100%

people do cheat but i doubt they come online and ask for advice about it

[near remnant]

well, he didn't cheat on the coding part, only on the multiple choices theoretical questions. he thought it will be only coding like on hackerrank

but yeah, i get you

[dense mesa]

I personally don't cheat on them because if you screw up a later part, that company is likely gonna blacklist you, and HR people talk to each other

If a further part of the interview relies on knowledge covered earlier, not only will that company likely ditch him, any connected ones may also be put off

[near ocean]

I dont cheat on them because it feeds my imposter syndrome otherwise i'd probably be head of google by now

[delicate bane]

[slate badger]

Thannxx 😊

[delicate bane]

i have a weird question

what do you do if someone randomly asks you for a referral for an internship at your company but like you are just an intern too + you dont know this person

[brazen trail]

say no

[delicate bane]

like, i dont feel comfortable referring someone idk

[brazen trail]

there's a few things that can happen with a referral... the person can do a really bad job, which reflects badly on you... they could also do a really good job, and if they do it's likely that people will forget that you were the one that recommended them anyway

[delicate bane]

can i just ignore their message or..?

[brazen trail]

and if they do remember? what then, they more likely to listen to your referrals in the future, where you roll the dice again haha

[delicate bane]

oh man

[brazen trail]

you could say you only give out referrals to people you've worked with closely before, or you could say that you don't give out referrals at all, or you could ignore the message

[delicate bane]

or you could ignore the message

the path of least resistance will probably be my most likely approach...is that bad

[brazen trail]

if ignoring messages from random people on the internet is wrong, I don't want to be right

[delicate bane]

omg literally while we were talking another person messaged me for the same thing

[brazen trail]

haha

[delicate bane]

💀

i cant even

too much social media this morning. closes app

[near remnant]

lmao

[tidal gazelle]

is ICT anything that can help with becoming a software engineer?

[near remnant]

what is ICT

[brazen trail]

I think it will help in that playing baseball regularly, as opposed to sitting around all day, will make you better at soccer or football

you are staying active, there's some overlap, etc, it would be better to just practice soccer or football if that is your goal, though

it certainly won't hurt

it could make you more well-rounded 🙂

[karmic ember]

Hello everyone, help with a short question: how to make each next variable named by 1 more?
Example:

import random

a = 0
test(a+=1) = random randint(1, 5)

[near remnant]

Your code looks very weird, what do you want?

[karmic ember]

I'll even wrap it in a function so that when it's called, the variable test_1, 2, and so on will be created.

import random

def function():
a = 0

 test_(a+=1) = random randint(1, 5)
 return(test_a)

[near ocean]

this is a discussion channel and the topic is careers, please use #python-discussion or a help channel

[terse plume]

hey so I have been trying to get my next gig and break into programming for real and it's rough (I am not sure what variables are mostly why I haven't gotten an offer yet--if I am expecting higher odds than are realistic, if I am applying for jobs too high or too low for what I am capable of, etc.)

but I was wondering if I could get some feedback on something I have noticed on linkedin?

I could be wrong but it looks like some contracts are outsourced to india (as in, outsourcing the recruitment jobs to india) and I feel really bad because I am not great at parsing that accent especially over a phone call with potato call quality and lack of visual cues on face to go with sound so I am constantly asking for these guys to repeat themselves or if they are asking XYZ

so that is one difficulty but another is I do not have a lot of experience in the regular world job market despite my age because I spent so many years in academia so I have no experiences to compare... is this how it is now?

is it normal to ask what somebody's work authorization is? to ask if I am ok with w2? all of this sounds like contract work, not fulltime hire, and I can be ok with a shorter term contract for a year or two if I am using that job as a specific experience or company to help me have better shots at my next gig... but I just don't have any idea here. it's ringing alarm bells for me but I am not sure if that is a false positive.

second question: in the world of programming (or python language specifically) is it pretty normal for an employer to expect employees to be working on their education on their own time/dime? I'm trying to break into this field from a completely different background (bio/chem) so I'm self taught and I know nothing compared to the vast everything... but also, I feel like, to me, it would be easy to spend a little time and money training me and getting me up to speed and then I can kick all sorts of ass.

but uh, am I just expecting too much too quickly? am I supposed to just look for data analyst type jobs and study on my own time and try to fill in those gaps and then try for those entry level jobs again?

I'm concerned that all these years going by put me in a weird spot of having my resume thrown out for the positions I would be actually a good fit for (them assuming I'm going to be too expensive or them seeing me applying for entry level as a red flag since I have been trying to do some programming adjacent stuff for so long?) but then I get a few nibbles when I accidentally apply to positions way too senior for me. and like, I am fine with taking a pay cut if I have to do that in order to get me from here to "being an official programmer" in the future but this is all in a big black box so I have NO idea what is going on for all the many applications that don't get to/past the phone screening.

[brazen trail]

When you get an interview ask what their conference and educational reimbursement program is like. Maybe also look for jobs that where you could leverage your bio/chem skills while you make this lateral move

I'd reach out to your network and see if there are any positions open that you could fill, as well, you'll have better luck with that than with putting in tons of applications.

it was about 4 years ago, but I moved from the biological sciences to development, and I probably put in 50 applications before I got a callback, and 100 before an interview

that was with with having demonstratable programming experience, it's kinda tough to break into the first dev job, but it's worth the time

[terse plume]

I tried to do the "leverage bio/chem" thing but uhhh even entry level in biotech is like, bonkers stupid. I got to the interview but it felt like the interviewer wanted a PhD on either side (the programming side or the chemistry side) and some really flashy achievements on the other side.

that's not going to work for me at all. I've my non thesis MS in chemistry that I got in 2019 after trying to do the PhD thing for way too many years before I admitted to myself that I was miserable and this wasn't what I thought it was or what was advertized

oh right I have one more email address to grab and send an email to that person and see if they know of any job openings (though she is more on the data analyst side iirc)

[brazen trail]

yeah, I mean, I think a few interviews going bad isn't a reason to abandon the approach/subfield, but you do you

I hope you find something

[terse plume]

yea yea I need to lick my wounds and put that behind me so it doesn't sour me on stuff that I actually could have chances at.

[brazen trail]

yeah, I understand getting frustrated for sure... I was pulling my hair out when I was applying

[terse plume]

thanks much.

I been struggling with that (literally) but extra much lately because yea this process is soul sucking.

employers looking for the perfect candidate + listing the 'nice to haves' along with the 'must haves' + my own anxiety & imposter syndrome is my own personal hell. I still struggle to reconcile things like the job application process feeling so very unhinged from any actual work I have EVER done in my life with the feelings that maybe I just can't break into this field without either that degree or somebody helping me fill in the most important gaps first and I really can't tell how much is imposter syndrome and how much is reasonable.

and again I don't want to just be constantly complaining but I've got a neurodevelopmental disorder. my understanding is admitting you have a disability is a sure way to get your application immediately binned because it's difficult enough to prove that is the reason (plus the likelihood that you don't have the ability to spend the time and money on litigating anyway) so I'm not supposed to admit that on the EEO forms but then if I can't do that or ask for accommodations...de facto I just have to admit it's going to be tougher? ew. gross. not a fan.

and sorry the point of this isn't for me to gripe for an hour. so, so far I got one "stay the course and pull the lever enough times to eventually hit and maybe you hit" as well as "networking is better"

[hasty plover]

Hello there,

I'm a SDE (backend) with an experience of 3 years. I'm working in a small organization with a below average pay. I love to work in new technologies and tech savvy. I'm good in developing things and would love to work on projects from scratch.

But I'm not that strong in the DSA and I'm not good in interviews. No matter how hard I try, I couldn't improve my DSA. I'm reaching out for help regarding my career. Are there any hacks for acing the interview?
Even I tend to forget the problems I solved on leetcode, if it was asked in the interview.

Apart from that, I'm currently in depression and acceptance (that I cannot improve) state. Please provide some valuable thoughts for me.

Thanks

[terse plume]

Oh right, are doing practice problems helpful for dealing with these online assessment things?

[tender plover]

Hey I'm probably a lot younger than you and I don't really know if you should listen to me but don't just lose hope, accepting that you can't do it is the worst you can do to yourself.
From your interview experience I think you sort of panic, try to control your mind and be calm, that's the first step.
All will be well. Wishing you luck!

[frosty trout]

Guys should I have a computer science degree to have a job as a python developer I mean is it necessary or not?

[terse plume]

I don't know if it is but I sure am wishing that I had the official college degree background, right about now 🥺

[frosty trout]

I mean I am 16 and already know alot about programming I'm making games with rpg maker and learn python(Django)at the same time and I want to attend a cs course at a university somewhere in Europe(I live in algeria)but sometimes I feel frustrated thinking about(visa,university tuition fees,living cost)
:(

[stuck helm]

If a company is doing verbal negotiation with you, then do they do background check and reference check before or after they email the official offer letter?

[smoky quest]

If you are 16, then aim for a CS degree. That will be a huge boost to your career

[smoky quest]

Reference check would typically happen prior to the official letter, but both background and reference checks could happen either way

[frosty trout]

Thanks man :)

[stuck helm]

I'm just trying to gauge when would be a good time for me to tell my boss because the application asked if they could contact my supervisor, I said yes and gave her contact info, so I think the company will contact her.

I guess after they email me the official offer letter. And right after I send the offer letter back to them, I can go talk to her and tell her that I will be leaving in 2 weeks.

I dont know if she would try to jeopardize my offer by lying to them about me. We are not on bad terms with each other. But I'm also the only developer the company has.

[smoky quest]

wtf no. Never tell them it's okay to contact your current boss

It's a recipe for disaster

[stuck helm]

Oh I thought it was usually a filter if someone says dont contact my supervisor then they would get weeded out.

Ahhhhhh lol.

For future job applications I'll tell them to not contact my boss.

What kind of questions does the next company ask the current company's supervisor?

[smoky quest]

I have bosses and coworkers from previous positions for reference checks

[smoky quest]

Same questions than any other references about if you do work there, what you did, are they satisfied, would they regret you leaving, etc.

[stuck helm]

Oh ok

[vapid jay]

man, reading some of the things online, I wonder if it's even worth self-teaching python/programming to get a job as a programmer.
Everywhere I look and everyone I talk to outside of discord tells me that without a CS degree I'll get nowhere.
Fml, I don't have the capability for a CS degree now or any time soon.

/rantover

[stuck helm]

If I give my two weeks' notice today or tomorrow, can I still mark next Friday as my last day at my current company, would it be reasonable? It wouldnt be two whole weeks.

[honest pivot]

Does your contract specify a notice period? If not, then two weeks was a courtesy in the first place.

[smoky quest]

It's between your and your manager. It depends on how they would take it and how much you need to transfer

[stuck helm]

Ok I will talk to my manager and work it out. I can stay a week longer if they aske me to, that's fine.

[stuck helm]

No, it's not a contract position, but I wanted to give two weeks' notice and leave on good terms.

Thank you recursive error!!

[smoky quest]

just be careful to not freely suggest and give it away

To the question "do you want some extra time and not have to deal with these problems sooner?", the answer is always yes.
so don't volunteer things you don't need to

[stuck helm]

I dont get it.

[stuck helm]

I shouldnt ask my current manager, "Do you want me to stay a week longer to wrap things up, keep helping out with issues" because my manager will say yes to that and ask me to stay a week longer?

[smoky quest]

yes

it doesn't cost them anything, so why would they refuse? It's only positives to them

[stuck helm]

I will say something like:
"""
It's been nice working here etc etc....
I wanted to give my two weeks' notice. Next Friday, July 1st will be my last day here at the company.
""""

And also send this out in email for documentation/paperwork reasons.

[honest pivot]

I mean your employment contract. But yeah, like others mentioned, just give your "approximate" two weeks, I think ending on a Friday is pretty normal.

[stuck helm]

I actually dont remember if my offer contract said that I need to give two weeks notice.

[honest pivot]

It helps to keep legal documents in a place that you can refer to them when needed

[stuck helm]

Yeah, I agree. I'll do that for next company.

[icy fern]

How would I write in a CV that I'm currently working on an academic paper?

and how would I mention in the same area libraries I'm adept at? I'm applying as a first job sort of thing.

[peak halo]

I was in the same boat when I was job hunting. I had "in submission" in italics after the name of the paper

[icy fern]

Well, I sort of want to clump it together. I'm applying for a machine learning job and I want to basically give the reviewer every single highlight that might make him continue reading

Maybe like Academic paper in <field>(in progress) or something similar? Would really appreciate advice on this.

Also, how would I mention libraries I'm adept at? @peak halo

[peak halo]

this section of my resume addresses the things you just said

"in production" is when they're preparing to publish it. I'm not sure what to put to say that you're still writing it

[icy fern]

I feel like as a Bachelors student I can stand out by mentioning that I'm writing an academic paper, not just doing a final project.
Your cv looks super clean. Can I DM you a CV of mine when I finish and you'll give me your thoughts?

[peak halo]

yes. you can also post it here with redactions

[novel pine]

You could also send it in here with personal information blurred out if you wanted multiple perspectives.

[peak halo]

also, I used this latex template, which I then modified to my liking. if you're writing an academic paper, you probably have at least a basic knowledge of latex. https://github.com/posquit0/Awesome-CV

[icy fern]

Yeah, I have overleaf. I'll check it out, thanks. 🙂

[icy fern]

Anyone else can take a look? I don't prefer it out in public if that's alright.

[spark zinc]

hey, im in a little bit of a sticky situation rn with my career, can I dm someone for advice (dont want to release alot of information here)? pls ping if u can help ! !

[peak halo]

you can always just post the redacted version, and if people feel like commenting, they will

[peak halo]

no one is going to commit to help if they don't know what your question is going to be, so please ask your question to the best extent that you can.

[agile turtle]

I am a 22-year-old freelance software developer. I failed class 12 but got 68 percentile in the JEE Main. I want to join studies again. What should I do? (feel free to dm)

[peak halo]

what country is this? how much freelance experience do you have?

[graceful wagon]

Yall think I'll need to take a pay cut to hop from quality engineer to dev at a different company?

Or should it not matter

[icy fern]

I considered it, it's just hard to trust a public forum like this, which is why I prefer DMs. If anyone is willing to glance over please let me know

[peak halo]

trust a public forum in what way? because it's the same people here who you'd be DMing.

[delicate bane]

plenty of people here have posted a redacted resume and gotten much help here on improving it. this server isnt like other places

[median garden]

which uni did u go to?

[peak halo]

why do you ask? you can look on my github if you want to know about me.

[median garden]

oh just
wanted to get an idea abt entry req

sure ill see ur github

[delicate wren]

i dont have a cs degree, and i make approx $200k a year at the moment, but i got lucky

my recommendation is have a regular job, but if you're passionate about programming pursue it in any free time you might have and try to find a job you can apply your programming knowledge too, and learn programming skills for your job

but i dont really know anything and have little life experience haha

[ebon kestrel]

Cool bro

[ivory sluice]

finally i found the pings i was missing!
yeah i guess it's country-dependent

[rancid swift]

Hey Everyone, I am new here. Just want to say Hi

[orchid jungle]

Hello @rancid swift!!

[ivory sluice]

hello and #welcome! check out the channel descriptions at the top of each channel so you know what the reserved topics are for each of them. if you want to chat python, check out #python-discussion. if you want to just hang out, check out off-topic #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[uncut trench]

Hi im new here

I just started python 3 days ago

[fluid topaz]

Hi I'm new to python i've been studying it for a couple days now learning the basics, do i have to learn anything extra to be able to use python for finance?

[vapid jay]

How’d you get lucky? I personally think we make our own luck more. 200k… damn. Numbers only in my dreams.

[wooden rain]

Hello everyone I’m new here. I’m a beginner.

[cosmic axle]

Fake it till you make it

[delicate wren]

I got extremely lucky in that I found a business partner who I was a perfect fit for, who had an incredibly well connected past and just came out of a 3 year non compete and started pulling all his contacts to get new business

It started with me putting myself out there on Fiverr very basically, and he was the first person that contacted me and was so lucky he lived a 1 hr 30 drive from him. I was lucky in that I found him so quickly and so perfectly fit, but with saying that I obviously spent the last 4 years prior learning code through highschool. I started making $10-50k a year, and kept growing to now 200k a year, and looking like even more growth is coming. I’m not saying all this to flex (as I’m being very candid and this isn’t how someone would flex), but showing how luck is a big part in the bigger incomes but so is skill and putting yourself out to even be able to receive that luck

If I were to do it again, I’d get a job to keep me over during the slow times, and I’d put myself on every single platform, make amazing videos to present myself, and really spend hours on job applications and upskilling

[fluid topaz]

this is inspiring

[vapid jay]

I’m glad it worked out for you, it does sound like a right place right time type of thing.

Keep it up :)

[delicate wren]

Thanks guys, appreciate it, and really wish the same for everyone, I empathise with anyone wanting better futures and if I can help in any way let me know

[vapid jay]

I might DM you a couple of questions later if that’s okay?

[delicate wren]

Knock yourself out, love to answer and know more about you too

[vapid jay]

Thank you appreciate it

[agile turtle]

India , 11 gigs in python ( algo and ml)

guys what is the fastest way to create a cv

[chrome yew]

Guys, which course would you rather go to: Computer Science or Software Engineering? And why?

[coarse crag]

wouldn't that depends on the course itself? i'm assuming you're talking about university major. as far as i know, computer science studies all things related to computer including hardware and software in general. so you'll be learning about computer parts and what's the process that's working behind the computer itself (maybe even the history of how computer was created). but when talking about software engineering, i'm sure the course is mainly directed towards learning the software (how to create one) and its structure, and less about the hardware and electricity. and that would depend alot on the curriculum that you're taking. some uni has computer science major/course with lots of software engineering part.

personally i'd rather go for software engineering because i think it's faster to make money that way, and you won't be dealing with hardware and stuff. but that's VERY MUCH a personal and subjective preference.

[gritty rivet]

you could try a website like https://resume.io/ but I would prefer to just type it out in a word processor

[brazen trail]

I mean, the fastest way would be to write all your experience in a word document

it's really supposed to be a living document, not a one-off that you get done really fast

"The law of nature is: Do the thing, and you shall have the power, but they who do not the thing have not the power." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

[chrome yew]

I think almost the same. The main problem for me is that the nearest Software Engineering course from me is about 400 km far. That's why I'm confused about what to do and which one is better. Do you think someone who studied for CS can get the same jobs as a SE?

[near ocean]

I was an interview just now and these guys actually seriously asked me to do fizzbuzz

Some other cute questions too, like balancing parens, and other

[coarse crag]

imo it's the same, as long as at the end of the course, you have sufficient skills.

agree

[coarse crag]

i'm sure it's beneficial to take cs degree because the software engineering one is far in distance with your place (whether its more about hardware or software, it doesn't really matter) and then teach yourself software engineering outside of uni. i'm sure most programmers are actually self taught, i believe cs degree is like a supplement for better understanding of how computer works, but it's completely possible to teach yourself software engineering.

but then again, that depends on your choice. pick the one you think is best.

[true harness]

at least in the US, software engineering and CS overlap a lot. the main difference is that SE will be a little more practical, and CS will be a little more theoretical. idk which is better for jobs, since i have no experience with that

[chrome yew]

That's what I most think about too. It looks like someone with CS degree understands better how all the process work, and would be easier for this person to learn software engineering. That's why I consider CS course better for me

[gritty rivet]

As I think others may have said I wouldn't make too much out of the name, would focus on more meaningful information like curriculum, career outcomes, cost, etc. Location and distance are definitely valid factors to consider too

[coarse crag]

ah i see i see, well i mean, that depends on the person themselves. anyone can understand how all the process work if they put effort into learning it. glad you think like that too, good luck! wish you all the best!

[livid moat]

wait, so it is true every dev has imposter syndrome?

[chrome yew]

Thanks for helping!

[chrome yew]

Yeah, that's what I'm looking for, but it's kinda difficult to find this information, so I need to ask people which they think is the best course, considering all these things you mentioned

[coarse crag]

that question is not exactly related to the topic of this channel, but i assume you're seriously asking about this. i believe that not all developers have imposter syndrome, it really depends on the person BUT, having a job where the field is growing so fast (software dev/tech in general), you're gonna need to keep learning (and fast too) because technology is always improving and changing. therefore it's more likely for developers to have imposter syndrome at work compared to other people working in a field that's more stable.

[livid moat]

ah okay

[abstract current]

i've got some questions. How would answer some of these questions if you 've never encountered these type of situations at you work?

Describe a situation in which you had to adjust to changes over which you had no control. How did you do this?
Tell me about a project that you worked on recently. Can you describe the technical challenges you faced and how you overcame those challenges?
Tell me about a time you had a disagreement with a coworker and how you resolved it.
What’s been the most challenging problem you have faced and how did you solve it?

[coarse crag]

i believe this is more about adaptability at work in order to have a good relationship with your coworker and how you're gonna do stuff therefore allows you to fit into the culture of the company.

i was about to say more but i believe other people in this server knows more about behavioral question than me. i'm sure it's good to wait for recursive_error's answer on this.

[abstract current]

@left lantern im waiting for your answer. thanks

[coarse crag]

uhm not that person but i don't think pinging them is good

[abstract current]

oh sorry

[coarse crag]

people will read your message, dw

[abstract current]

ok thanks

[spark zinc]

i see

essentially, i had one really bad, borderline abusive boss and he fired me

so i went and got 2 other research positions

but my old boss' boss didnt want to fully fire me so im technically working directly under him now but he has completely ghosted me

so idk what to do

[gritty rivet]

sounds like you need to look for a better job

[peak halo]

I don't think I'm following. Are you saying that you have Job A, and the boss for Job A (Boss A) is terrible, so you applied for and were offered Jobs B and C, and now you're not sure what to tell Boss A? Sounds like you should accept Job B or C and tell Boss A that you no longer work for him.

[dusty fulcrum]

take job B, continue to collect pay for job A until they do actually terminate you. That's on them not you.

[coarse crag]

Wow it's rare seeing you reply to this channel. In the future may i ask you things that's related to career and not just python?

[lucid vapor]

!mute 808977848131125329 investigating

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @pure pine until <t:1655928472:f> (59 minutes and 59 seconds).

[spark zinc]

Thanks for the help @dusty fulcrum @peak halo!

Should I tell Job B or C about the whole situation or should I just be vague and say “yea I’m working part time alineside this”

[peak halo]

it's usually best not to shittalk a previous employer to your current employer. at least not until you've established some rapport.

if they didn't ask why you're leaving your current employment, you don't have to tell them

[dusty fulcrum]

You should inform your new employer of everything they need to know about you that will legally impact them or how you perform. In this case none of those matter so you have nothing to tell them.

[spark zinc]

That makes sense

[dusty fulcrum]

There are cases where you change employment to a competitor and it could have potential conflict of interest clauses come up. But it doesn't sounds like you were working for a company that is worried about corporate espionage. 🙂

[dusty fulcrum]

You can certainly ask. I've spent decades as a hiring manager, so I frequently have strong opinions. And as I'm mostly working for American companies a lot of those opinions are "care more about yourself, the employer is not going to care about you"

[coarse crag]

Ah i see i see, thank you xelf! 🙏

[buoyant seal]

xD good standing. I don't think anywhere in the world it is different (Saying from third world country)
Your future is only in your hands, your career is only in your hands, only you are responsible for your education

[dusty fulcrum]

To some extant it's better in other countries where there are better labor laws. In the US there is no health care, just health insurance, and it's expensive. And geared towards denying service. The automatic denials is considered a $14billion per year industry and they're constantly trying to optimize it. As for holidays, a lot of companies still offer only 1 weeks vacation. Most will offer 2, 3 if you have seniority. It's even worse if you're a contractor where they offer lower pay, no heath ins, and no vacation. You want time off, just don't take a contract.

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. Tradeoffs. US has one of best salaries (minus heavy taxes)
Russia has surely good worker protecting laws, as companies are obligated to pay 3-6 month worthy payment if they fire worker
And we often have standard vacation package like 3 weeks.
But the salary... Middle ranked dev can get 2000 dollars per month salary, and Senior ranked salary is not that far ahead.
Do I need to mention that Junior salary is somewhere at the level of 300-1000 dollars? xD

Though it does not important which laws Russia has any longer. Its IT market is all about escape the country now. I already live under different country laws.

[smoky quest]

it's all about trade offs.
Some of the flexibility induces more risk.

As a counter point, many companies offer unlimited vacation and it's not unusual for engineers to take way more vacation than they could have taken in EU. Obviously, it also means a lot of the less fortunate folks cannot afford that flexibility.
On the hiring side, the flexibility also goes both way in terms of hiring and quitting

[dusty fulcrum]

Yeah, it's hard to compare to Russia. They have different issues. Parts of the US might come across as a conservative hellhole, but compared to Russia it's a liberal paradise. 🙂

[buoyant seal]

hehe. Immigrant out of Russia has more rights than citizen of Russia in Russia I think now

[dusty fulcrum]

The general research on unlimited vacation and combining it with sick days is that it has benefited American companies more than the workers, and that the vast bulk of employees are still taking reduced vacation time, they're just not carrying it over year to year or taking it with them when they change jobs any more. From a liability standpoint it's been a colossal win for companies that implemented it.

[smoky quest]

indeed. If people aren't in a high demand area, they don't have as much leverage

[dusty fulcrum]

The nice thing about working in the US is getting to work with Americans, who are for the most part good people. The salaries are generally higher than other places, and in many places the taxes are low. Working in Seattle area we have no state income tax.

[smoky quest]

salaries are much higher, more flexibility in hours and work, you can get to work on problems that can impact the entire world and can retire much earlier (if you are lucky)

[stray jacinth]

I know the fundamentals of python and I have practised a lot of problems on hackerrank what do I do now to get better?

What projects

[dense mesa]

No state income tax??

I've been basing my decisions on where to live based on mainly taxation

[dusty fulcrum]

Yeah, there are several states that have no state tax. WA is one of them.

[dusty fulcrum]

Just keep programming, if you can't think of or find a project to work on try a harder programming site like adventofcode.com I think anyone that can complete adventofcode.com is an autohire @ $200k+

[dense mesa]

Interesting, may have to reconsider the US in that case

[dusty fulcrum]

If you're coming from a country that has health care though it's a HUGE deal.

[dense mesa]

UK so yeah, although the tax rate here is eye watering

[dusty fulcrum]

Also, as much as they try to combat it, institutional racism in the US is not to be dismissed, especially if you live in less liberal areas.

[dense mesa]

Very true, have been thinking of changing my surname before moving as well

[dusty fulcrum]

Another jaw dropping difference coming from the UK for instance: my kid has to go through "active shooter drills" regularly at school, because you never know.

There was a newsitem recently: teacher was asking if they could keep the doors and windows open for better ventilation as 1/2 the kids were from families that thought covid was a liberal hoax, but the school board turned down the request as school doors had to stay shut during class in case of an active shooter. =/

[smoky quest]

There is still federal tax and the tax structure of the state would be different (ie. property taxes). But yeah, it does add up

[gilded valley]

If you look at the total tax wedge, the US generally comes in lower than the UK

[dusty fulcrum]

for most people in america the tax rate is around 50% or so when you add up state income, sales, and property taxes, federal income taxes and social security taxes, and add in the health insurance premiums.

the richer you are the smaller that number becomes.

[smoky quest]

yeah, the US does come lower than a lot of countries. But there are also a lot of social services absent

[dense mesa]

Marginal tax at 50% is crazy, similar to the UK

[gilded valley]

https://www.oecd.org/unitedstates/taxing-wages-united-states.pdf

[dusty fulcrum]

In the US Jimmy Carr is a hero for "gaming the system". 🙂

or rather he would be if they knew who he was.

[dense mesa]

@smoky quest would you consider Monaco if you have a job offer that paid more closely to Europe in general?

I like it there but on god is it hot and touristy in the summer

[dusty fulcrum]

I think one thing there that is missing is health insurance costs. annual cost for family insurance is $21k, and that's if you don't see a doctor. Actual medical costs are on top of the cost you pay for the insurance.

[gilded valley]

health insurance definitely seems distinct from tax - but fair enough

[dusty fulcrum]

depending on your employer a large portion of that (over half) will be paid as a benefit, as long as you're not a contractor or part time.

[dusty fulcrum]

I think you have to factor it in when other countries provide it as part of the taxes you pay.

[gilded valley]

yeah - that's true. That's one of the things that makes comparing to the US super difficult

[dusty fulcrum]

it's too big a cost not to consider when weighing options.

[gilded valley]

especially trying to assign a cost to the non-monetary aspects like the stress of even worrying about healthcare costs

[dusty fulcrum]

if you have college bound kids that's another factor to consider in the US.

[gilded valley]

Overall, I definitely think the average programmer in the US is significantly better off than in e.g the UK - the higher salary seems like it easily offsets a lot of these costs

[dusty fulcrum]

the stress is no joke, I received a "not covered by insurance" bill from the hospital for my daughter that was over $300,000.

for a 3 week stay.

[dense mesa]

Wtf

[gilded valley]

yeah, that's horrifying. Wouldn't want to have to deal with that

[dusty fulcrum]

the resolution was insane: I had to drop her from my family insurance so that she would qualify for an uninsured plan.

[gilded valley]

I can't imagine the stress of receiving the bill and having to find a workaround

[smoky quest]

no because the demand for engineering is too low. Makes it difficult to hire or find a jobs over the long term.
Although the scenery and location is fantastic 😉

I also doubt I could get anything close to my compensation

[gilded valley]

Switzerland is the place to go for low taxes and high demand

[dense mesa]

Can I DM for a sec @smoky quest

[dusty fulcrum]

I was actually in the middle of buying a house and moving, and changing jobs at the same time, so it sort of all happened at once. In the end I'm just glad she's ok. 🙂

[smoky quest]

sure

[dusty fulcrum]

That's where my sister is working now.

[gilded valley]

yeah, that's the thing that matters - glad it all ended reasonably well for you

[smoky quest]

Note also that my answer was for me. It would be different if I was located somewhere else

[dusty fulcrum]

<@&831776746206265384> this channel really doesn't need a 20 second cooldown does it?

[gilded valley]

it's so damn annoying

[void raven]

!slowmode set 470889390588035082 5s

[inner wren]

✅ The slowmode delay for #career-advice is now 5 seconds.

[gilded valley]

yay!

[dusty fulcrum]

ty

[gilded valley]

I have a Swiss friend who use to get paid ~30usd/hr working in a shop

[dense mesa]

First time slowmode has been changed here 😳

[gilded valley]

higher CoL and all that - but that's a phenomenal wage:CoL ratio

[dusty fulcrum]

The thing with Switzerland. When my sister was interviewing there she decide to grab a cheap lunch from McDonalds. Hamburger and a soda: 30ish euros. (like $30usd)

[gilded valley]

Being young, I'd absolutely be willing to accept the higher CoL assuming I could save some reasonable % of my income

[smoky quest]

That's exactly the case in the bay area in CA

[dusty fulcrum]

it's all tradeoffs. remote work is letting people explore a lot of those tradeoffs better as well.

[gilded valley]

I think the tradeoffs are much easier to work out when you're young and don't have a family

[void raven]

Okay looks like I hadnt seen stelercus's post from way back when, so I probably shouldn't have lowered it this much

[novel cape]

@dusty fulcrum if youre getting that 300k bill from hospital but paying 21k a year for health insurance, what does health insurance cover?

[gilded valley]

it's done now - wait and see how it plays out? There are mods who frequent the channel so they'll notice if it's a problem

[void raven]

What can yall live with without angering the fun police?

[dense mesa]

It's fine for now 😅😅😅

[dusty fulcrum]

It depends. Slowmode doesn't change the quality of the posts, just the frequency. So the question is do you want to limit discussion which is fine too. But that seems like more of a meta discussion.

[gilded valley]

There's a very common style of communication, which mirrors natural conversations

where people make a point across a couple of messages

and slowmode really fucks with that - whilst not improving quality

[delicate bane]

good information that im def keeping note of for my (hopefully) future career

[ivory sluice]

the high slowmode did fix a lot of issues we had with message quality

[delicate bane]

that is also true. maybe if it gets bad, we can push to 10s

[ivory sluice]

we will assess and let you all know

[dusty fulcrum]

can't argue with results! (well I mean people can argue, but not very effectively)

[gilded valley]

on the Switzerland front - the quality of life there really is insanely high. Like, my Swiss coworkers literally go for a run up 10/10 beautiful mountains after work. They have great trains and public transport, nice houses

incomparable to somewhere like London

[dense mesa]

One observation since I've been on this server (then I'll stop discussing it):

Slowmode is good when you have new people/beginners who start getting off topic, and people are trying to steer them back to discussion in-between the messages.

When we're giving advice/having more serious discussions, the lower slowmode is much better

[dusty fulcrum]

it varies with each plan, and typically your employer will sign up for a group discount plan so you get the choices from options your employer has selected. Frequently it will cover preventative care like going to the dr for a checkups, but will not cover medicine, you will get discounts on things like broken arms and such, and the insurance will cover much of the cost of an ambulance ride (which is around $2k-$3k). The hospital will have high costs for things expecting the insurance to cover it and the patient not to care, but then the insurance company will spend a LOT of time and money on finding ways to insist you don't actually need a hip replacement.

You may or may not also get dental or vision coverage with your health insurance.

[novel cape]

still seems like 21k isnt worth it

like if i go in for a checkup 12 times a year(way higher than necessary) no way that'll cost me 21k

but being a family plan maybe you have 6 people going twice a year

[dusty fulcrum]

It's not worth it until you have something go wrong. America would be a paradise if they could fix health care costs, higher educational loan costs, and control casual cheap anonymous gun purchasing. Still, I like it here in the Seattle area. So the net tradeoff seems worth it, but there area areas I would love to see improved.

[novel cape]

I see your line of thinking

and respectfully disagree

[dusty fulcrum]

Oh I misunderstand, I thought we agreed. What part do we disagree on?

[summer roost]

That's a feature, not a bug. We want this channel to feel less conversational and more forum-y. Having the long slow mode makes a huge difference to people's willingness to engage in trolling, trading, joking, low effort replies, sand a bunch of other things that were driving the quality of this channel way down.

[gilded valley]

But that's not the way the channel does get used. It gets stuck in an awkward midpoint. If you want it to be forummy - make it a forum?

[summer roost]

At the point where we instituted the high slow mode, the plan B was to kill off the channel entirely. Slow mode turned out to work pretty well, but before we added the slow mode this channel was full of low effort misinformation and other garbage.

[gilded valley]

This seems like a reasonable midpoint. If it does turn out to be a significant decrease in quality, then it's not too much effort spent right?

[summer roost]

!sm set #career-advice 10s

[inner wren]

✅ The slowmode delay for #career-advice is now 10 seconds.

[vapid jay]

Hi

[near remnant]

I've got a response that my call from HR is delayed because the guy who works as an HR just came back from his vacation / holiday...lmao is this a thing?

[vapid jay]

I have a very basic question can anyone help me

[summer roost]

I'm willing to try the experiment of leaving it lower for a while, but I'm not willing to leave it lower than the #python-discussion slow mode.

We'll see how this works out.

[summer roost]

Is your question about jobs or careers?

[vapid jay]

About python

[summer roost]

Then not in this channel, no.

See #❓｜how-to-get-help

[vapid jay]

Ok thanks

[abstract current]

How do you answer this question?

Tell me about a time where you had to come up with a creative solution to solve a complex problem?

[smoky quest]

Have you ever faced that situation?

[abstract current]

No

But I didn't want to just answer with a straight up no

So I tried to come up with something to talk about which was basically all fluff

And the interviewer realized that

[summer roost]

What they're looking for with that question is to figure out what your idea of a complex problem is, and what your idea of a creative solution is. They want you to explain a thing that you worked on, in enough detail that they can understand a problem that you faced and why the obvious solutions wouldn't do the trick, and they want you to explain the less obvious path that you took instead

[abstract current]

I understand the reasoning behind the question i just haven't encountered a problem that I could talk about

[summer roost]

If that's true, you may just not have enough experience to be a good fit for the job

[abstract current]

Maybe so. You never know

[summer roost]

Or your experience may not be in the types of things that the hiring manager values

[abstract current]

They still continue the interview for like another hour afterwards so not sure if that question was a complete deal breaker

[summer roost]

Oh, no one question in an interview is ever likely to be a complete deal breaker. Getting people to that stage and taking the time to interview them is expensive, and cutting interviews short is uncommon

[abstract current]

Its happened to me.. I know when an interview is cut prematurely

Do you have experience with X framework? Me: no

Ok thank for your time

[summer roost]

Very weird the they took the time for a call without knowing the answer to that question in advance.

You probably dodged a bullet on that one.

[abstract current]

Well it's no secret there are a lot of bad recruiters/hiring managers out there

Yea I try not to think about it to much

I've been through so many interviews I don't really worry about the outcome anynore like I used to

If I get the job then great if not then life moves on

[summer roost]

For the question you were asking about originally, you might be able to successfully spin it into telling a story about a time when you implemented a less expensive solution to a problem than was originally planned

[abstract current]

Trust me I was digging real deep trying to find anything to talk Bout

[smoky quest]

There is nothing wrong with admitting you haven't had that experience yet. Anything you come up with would likely expose you as a liar and making up stuff anyway.
You could also try to turn it around about how it's something you wish to experience and learn and one of the reason you are looking out

[abstract current]

I get what you mean. I just didn't want to reply with a flat out "No I haven't encountered a situation like that"

[smoky quest]

Admitting when you don't know something is a quality.
There are a few filters used sometimes to filter out people who do not want to admit they don't know. You don't want that type of people in your org

[abstract current]

Later in the interview they asked if I had any experience with Microsoft technologies like azure, .net and I simply said no. Didn't try to bs

I mentioned i had some experience with spring boot and from what I've heard is similar to. Net framework

But I told them I had no experience working with Microsoft tech directly

Hopefully my honesty scores me some points

[delicate bane]

yes i think 10s is good to test and see

[spark zinc]

are cross earrings unprofessional or disrespectful? I have a meeting in person tmrw and idk if i should take them off or not lmfao

[delicate bane]

i think it should, but at the same time you might be competing against a candidate who might have that experience so that also might be something to keep in mind

[abstract current]

Yea of course

[smoky quest]

It's up to you about the message you want to convey and how you want it to be interpreted.
In general, people won't discriminate against you because of religion/politics/etc. But if someone has something against your religion or if they feel you make your personality around it (ie. you are too much in their face), they could try to find an excuse (there would be something to be said about whether or not you want to work in such environment).
Try to think about it from the other side: what if someone showed up to an interview with a maga tshirt or something from another religion/political statement?

[spark zinc]

its just an earring haha so i think it should be ok

[peak halo]

I wouldn't wear any religious symbols. you don't know what opinions the interviewers will have about that or what assumptions they'll make.

I wear emerald earrings, but I took them out for interviews, since I wasn't sure what opinions the interviewers might have about men who wear earrings. but no one seems to care and I wear them at the office.

[spark zinc]

eh i think ill be fine since im working w phds

also im in canada

[delicate bane]

dang stel, how do i get style like you when i grow up

[brittle rock]

dripping respectfully 🥶

[shell bear]

is it reasonable to try for a coding job when you are in highschool (15)?

like part time

[peak halo]

you can try, but it's not very likely to happen

[shell bear]

is formal experience needed

cause I have a lot of informal almost 5 years in several languages and frameworks but not much formal

[peak halo]

an employer that would consider a highschooler for their position would not require formal experience for that position. but those positions are probably few and far between

and I think they'd be more likely to make such a position an internship and market it to university students

[shell bear]

ah ok

[ripe stump]

I am pretty comfortable with django, Should I learn Flask? Or Golang now [for better job opportunity]

[vapid jay]

I am commerce student but I don't like that much i started taking interest in languages , jumped into online python beginners course and my interest is building up more and more i just want suggestions about how much should i learn and practice daily ? as i said my interest is building up but am worried will i get command on my future or i do required degree for this specific field?
Need your honest suggestions.

[smoky quest]

what's your objective? It's not too clear about your goal with regards to commerce and python?

[smoky quest]

Depends on your location and the most popular languages/frameworks around.
In terms of hiring, while the framework and language are important, the related skills matter even more. See for instance the skills on https://roadmap.sh/

[vapid jay]

I made decision to learn python and master it , I don't have interest in commerce but I can't go back to university again for python related degree i can take online courses.

[smoky quest]

tl;dr:

• Degrees are the most common path and the one that opens the most opportunities (including lucrative ones)
• Bootcamps can help getting into a job, but their value doesn't compare to a degree. The opportunities will be much lesser and tougher to find
• Self-taught can help getting into a job, but that's even tougher and more difficult.

That said, python is a language, it's just a tool. It's like saying "I decided to learn using a screw driver". I would recommend to dig first into the different jobs related to computer science and how python (and other languages) fit into it

[vapid jay]

So i shouldn't go for learning pyhton ? And don't leave commerce as it's my final year in commerce.

[novel cape]

in MY experience, python is an excellent beginner language if you are new to programming in general

easy to read, lots of levels of expertise, many libraries

but you gotta think, what will learning to code accomplish for you?

[brazen trail]

I agree with a lot of this, but I will say, while having a random degree and knowing how to program is not the same as having a degree in programming/cs/software engineering/etc, it can open some of the same doors

it's a lot better position to be in than having no degree and having finished a bootcamp, imho

you see a lot of job postings that are wanting a degree in this, that, or a related field, and that "related" can sometimes be stretched pretty far

[near ocean]

They say related but really they'd probably take anything
If you have a stem degree you shouldnt worry one bit

[delicate bane]

tired rex thoughts: i know we sometimes talk about how your role should not be perceived as being part of a "cost center" if possible (which i believe is how many businesses view most IT/Operations/etc. functions).

feel free to ignore this as this is a completely wild thought and completely changes business models but what if we had such functions perform some type of consulting/advising/assistance/etc. to generate revenue?

obv such service-type functions cant be understaffed/have capacity to do such a thing

[near ocean]

we do, theyre called quants and they make hella bank

[delicate bane]

what about for other roles

[near ocean]

jokes aside, pretty much everything from IT to operations increases revenue, but its a "passive" increase, youre not landing any clients, or closing deals, youre just making it smoother and easier for others to do so
not quite sure how you "sell" such a role

big corpo brains are very strange beasts, unless they see you shake an investor's hand i doubt you could convince them youre not part of "cost"

[delicate bane]

i bring this up bc cybersecurity roles tends to be all "service" rather than revenue generating - at least for most businesses

also bc my cybersecurity prof brought up how if you go into security, you have to constantly educate the business why your job is important and critical and not just a cost center. so i was just entertaining alternative business models that could help such service-type roles/make it easier

[near ocean]

hm, my current company has been granted ISO certification and that has won us a lot of business, so i guess there is some sort of way you could frame it as revenue winning than not
no idea what goes on in cybersecurity tho
part of ISO is some cybersecurity aspect

i dont see it for other parts of the business however, like Operations, not much argument you can make there

[honest pivot]

You can more or less make arbitrary dividing lines to say where your "cost" is, it's kind of silly. Probably retail employees should be paid the most, since they are the ones that physically take the customer's money.

[near ocean]

Not my money haha, i pay online for most things

[delicate bane]

yes but when the business needs to "cut costs" theyre more likely to layoff jobs in your dept if youre perceived as a cost center, no?

and afterwards thats when a security vulnerability occurs and ransomware locks up all the company's systems

im just half-kidding

[vapid jay]

hi

[near remnant]

I should've been called by the HR last week and I sent a follow-up email to the company about the delay. They told me that the interview process is delayed because many employees just came back from their vacation / holidays and they have to catch up with their work, but I should expect a call by the end of this week. Is the vacation / holidays can be really this hard to deal with?

[brazen trail]

in a way that can be a good sign that the company is down with everyone taking nice vacations 😄

with regard to management not understanding how valuable certain positions are, it's really up to the employees to promote themselves, and for impressing upper management this often means making and giving slide presentations about wins, successes, etc...

[delicate bane]

i totally get your point and i can envision this easily for developer roles, especially if its a project that has a lot of impact - thats def presentation-worthy. but i guess im having a harder time seeing the same thing for IT/Operations/etc.-type roles

[near remnant]

@brazen trail i think you answered but still not answered my question haha but thanks anyways

[brazen trail]

it's not that hard, talk about the inventory, new machines stood up, number of days without an incident, how often security patches are, new projects on the horizon, etc

[near remnant]

then i guess i just have to wait

[brazen trail]

if you don't think your work is presentation worthy, that's likely the first thing you gotta get over if you want to promote yourself in the org

the things you find boring and day-to-day might be interesting and unknown to another audience

[delicate bane]

or also boring to them

jk, no i get your point. metrics are key.

[near remnant]

what?

mate, what are you talking about

[delicate bane]

hes talking to me

[near remnant]

💀

[brazen trail]

yeah sorry, multiple conversation threads where I'm not @'ing people

[gritty rivet]

A lot of companies just don't prioritize their hiring process, it can be slow and chaotic, and that doesn't always mean it's a terrible place to work. Don't be afraid to follow up if you're waiting longer then they said you would, but what you describe sounds pretty ordinary to me

[near remnant]

Yeah, I've got referred by the team leader dev, so he tells me everything regarding my interview process. It's also just an internship so yeah...I bet I'll have to wait 😂

[brazen trail]

nice

[hybrid parrot]

Hi my friends I want some advice from u♥ Please help me
I'm 20
My dream is to work as a ML engineer but I'm not finish my school yet. Because of my country's(Myanmar) problem, I delay 3 years. So I decided to go abroad (Korea) to attend computer science and engineering. I'm now learning python to get an internship in abroad during university life. Can I get an internship in python field during university life?If I can, could you please tell me the skills and others programming languages requirement to get an internship in python field .And am I too old to attend university from 1st year?

Please give me some advice please♥
I really need your help

[near ocean]

How long has it been since you were referred

[near remnant]

I had one interview, passed, this would be the final one. The interview was 1.5 weeks from now.

[near ocean]

that sounds like a long time for HR to do their work
are you sure theyre not just wasting your time

[near remnant]

Well, I'm not sure. Based on the fact that I got referred by the company's team leader developer, hopefully, its not a waste of time. I just hope they'll call this week.

[gritty rivet]

Sounds like you're on a good path. Have you already been admitted to a university in Korea? If so you should reach out to them and figure out if they can put you in touch with someone who can answer your questions better than anyone here can. They probably have career advisors of some sort, though you may have to wait until you get there to meet with one.

As far as what to learn before you go, the details are not that important as long as you keep learning. Just build whatever kinds of projects interest you and advance your skills in the direction you want to go.

[hybrid parrot]

Yes my friend I have admitted to a Korea university and just visa acception remaining to go.

Btw Thank you for answering my question

[gritty rivet]

Congratulations then! I'll also mention that if you're not on LinkedIn, it's a good resource to see what current and former students of your university have done and are doing. Not sure if it's quite as popular in (South?) Korea as in other countries but it does look like people are on there.

[near ocean]

I've never had an application take this long, especially after a successful tech interview

[near remnant]

Good for you.

[hybrid parrot]

Thank u my friend I've never tried linkedIn before. BTW Will I know what should i learn next after python in linkedin to get an internship?

[gritty rivet]

You might be able to find people who are more likely to know. You can search on LinkedIn, for example, for people who graduated from your university and are doing ML work. They would have the best advice.

[orchid breach]

hey guys

i have a question

[hybrid parrot]

Thank you my friend for giving me advice♥

[orchid breach]

what should i build in order to up my chances of getting hired

or should i enroll in bootcamp

or get a certificate

[gritty rivet]

Everyone has to figure this out on an individual basis. If you don't have a degree and can pursue one, that's the best. If not, bootcamps can be useful but take self-learning as far as you can first. Look at job listings to understand what your goals should be, and work toward them.

[orchid breach]

what system or application that touches on alot of pythons most used prpgrams

[agile turtle]

guys i urgently need to talk to someone in private , if you can help me please dm

[near ocean]

why, use the channel, its purpose is discussion

[peak halo]

even if you're certain that you have to discuss it in private, you have to at the very least say what the topic you want to discuss is. because there's no way for anyone to know if what you want to discuss is something they can or want to comment on.

[delicate bane]

hmmmm weird situation again

(seems to be a recurring theme with me)

[near ocean]

Lay it on us

[delicate bane]

ok lol

im currently an intern right? i was also an intern at the same company but dif department last semester

i just got an email from my past boss' boss saying he wants to meet with me along with boss² 's boss aka the exec of the entire workstream/business vertical

[ivory sluice]

gonna need a diagram

[delicate bane]

this could either be really good (hopefully) since i know he mentioned me possibly getting a FT role or it could be really bad and im getting in trouble for something i have no idea about

[delicate bane]

literally same tbh

[ivory sluice]

someone that high won't be involved if you're in trouble

[near ocean]

Why would you think it'd be really bad

[delicate bane]

idk im a pessimist

[near ocean]

Fair, its probably not that tho

If you were in trouble why wouldnt they involve your current boss

[ivory sluice]

if you do good work and your name was mentioned to higher ups they might just be interested in getting to know you better, and seeing how they can leverage you and your skills

[near ocean]

This sounds like either the first boss wants you back, because of good work, or they wanna hire you FT, so the first boss can have you back lol

[ivory sluice]

when is it?

[delicate bane]

2 weeks-ish

[ivory sluice]

i'd try to keep a neutral mindset, i don't think it will be something bad though

[delicate bane]

ok

ill try to keep a neutral mindset as hard as that is

like should i prepare myself to be able to convince the exec i could be valuable for the company or..?

[ivory sluice]

ok now my turn
so i'm not in a dev role (more AR/finance) but am going to be transitioned into a revenue operations role
has anyone heard of any intersection between sales ops or rev ops and coding?

[delicate bane]

am i reading too into this

[delicate bane]

im starting to hear the term finops thrown around more and more often, idk if you see the same

[near ocean]

Isnt operations the same everywhere

[ivory sluice]

perhaps a bit. but unless you're terribly socially awkward i think you'll be fine? might be asked to summarize what work you've done for them or what pain points you had, or what solutions you might have brainstormed over time

[delicate bane]

i should refresh myself on the work i did last semester / what i could provide possibly or opportunities i see (?)

[ivory sluice]

when is your internship over? maybe they just want to move you to the old dept

[delicate bane]

[ivory sluice]

heh

[delicate bane]

oh man

[near ocean]

Do you know what revenue operations does? Sounds like a whole bunch of looking at excel

[ivory sluice]

i have vague ideas. we're owned by a PE firm at the moment so CFO (on my company's payroll, but one could say he works for the parent PE firm) is all about growing and scaling so that we can have a much higher valuation when it comes time to sell

[delicate bane]

interesting

[delicate bane]

could also be working with salesforce data and stuff

at least maybe in a traditional company

[near ocean]

Somehow that sounds worse than excel

[delicate bane]

probably not in a startup tho

or startup-like companies

[ivory sluice]

i talked to a senior with revops experience yesterday employed by salesforce and she hadn't heard of anyone that did coding on the side. (i asked bc i told her of my interest in programming)

[near ocean]

I would imagine a whole lot of automation scripts would be involved, salesforce, sap, factset type services are a bitch to work with

[delicate bane]

you could maybe introduce that, especially automating/RPA/scripting stuff

[ivory sluice]

what's rpa?

[delicate bane]

oh wait mariosis beat me

robotic process automation; from my understanding, its just SaaS for automating stuff

[near ocean]

Might wanna learn some vba if they do still use excel

Or javascript i guess nowadays

[delicate bane]

if they use google sheets, you can connect it to big query btw to do analytics-type work

[near ocean]

How come youre moving to a lesser-dev role? Did you ask for it?

[ivory sluice]

we're sticking with msft365
my CFO loves excel and has decent skills with it for an average user, but uses the macro recording feature. doesn't actually write his own vba

[near ocean]

Lmao what a lightweight

[ivory sluice]

uh i'm not in a dev role at all, i didn't ask to be moved to dev either. though CEO keeps telling me i should

[delicate bane]

[ivory sluice]

but our product kinda sucks and our dev department kind of sucks

[near ocean]

I dont think you'll like operations supporting roles

[ivory sluice]

it is actually more or less what i've been doing already. it's partially making my title match what i actually already do, and partially CFO having a need/gap in the company and using what current resources he has to fill in the gaps

[delicate bane]

interesting; i think automating/scripting or even analysis-type in this context would be interesting

at least from a learning perspective

at the very least, you could def put it on your resume afterwards

[vapid jay]

Is getting a job in tech without going to college realistic?

[buoyant seal]

The question should be "is getting a job in tech without university realistic?"

[ivory sluice]

what is the distinction?

[coarse crag]

isn't that the same

[buoyant seal]

Shrugs. I thought college is the one that offers just 2-3 years programs which allow to continue in university

While university gives bachelor and master programs

[ivory sluice]

(specify region/country)

[honest pivot]

College = university in the US

[ivory sluice]

in the US, colloquially one calls university "college" even if the institution is named X University
if it's something that gets you a bachelor's degree (typically 4 years) we call it college

[coarse crag]

kinda unrealistic but i don't really have the option to go to college so i'm actually trying to pursue that path. but some people did get a job in tech without a college degree tho.. but as recursive_error would say, they are "exceptions"

[near ocean]

it also depends on the kind of job youre after
its easier to get into frontend without a degree than it is as a quant analyst

[smoky quest]

We also have to be mindful of the opportunities and outcome.
A handyman without a license won't have the same opportunities and outcome than a licensed contractor.

The competition also makes it more difficult to stand out

[coarse crag]

yeah

[maiden pelican]

hey I got a job. Its my first not a startup of 5 people job. Its a big enterprise company, is there anything I should know when I start like dos or donts? Should they already have an idea of what my duties are and KPIs

[spare sundial]

Hey congrats on getting the job! - me, random person on the interwebs, but still, good job on landing it!

[smoky quest]

There is nothing specific beyond the usual. Be curious, don't hesitate to reach out for help when stuck, ask your manager/lead for their expectations of you and KPIs.

Note that in general, manager/directors have to justify the need for hiring someone. So they must have something planned for you, even if not very specific at first since the focus will be more on you ramping up rather than generating the most value right away.
Either way, congrats!

[deft pelican]

Is there any available and reliable info about average salary increase/year in the US for sw/HW developers?

[gilded valley]

I think the BLS has yearly salary data - but there's quite a lag, it doesn't include bonuses

[maiden pelican]

Yeah I'm going to take it one step at a time. I'm going to learn whats going on and then impress the hell out of them with my python, AWS, and data skills

[gritty rivet]

not that I know, but I would use the general rate of inflation as a bare-minimum baseline

you can reasonably expect better raises then that

I keep seeing 3%/year as an average but that seems low to me right now

[hearty island]

i cold emailed asking for an internship and apparently i have an interview now

[near remnant]

is it common to ask people about "serialization" and "GIL" during an internship interview?

[nimble salmon]

Guys I’m gonna start second year uni next sept, I’m doing electrical and electronic eng and I do a bit of ML as well. I wanna do some research work during my time at uni . Does anyone know what is the best way to get started with this. Should I contact my professors or wot

[vapid jay]

Are online open universities even worth it for career progression?

[gilded valley]

yes - both are concepts which it's reasonable to expect a python programmer to be familiar with

[vapid jay]

Long distance learning ones that is

[gilded valley]

(or in the case of serialisation - any programmer)

[near remnant]

nice, i never heard of them before

[gilded valley]

That's fine - you're not expected to necessarily answer every question. As long as you carried yourself fine, it doesn't necessarily count massively against you.

[near remnant]

we'll see

i thought i will be fine with my fullstack app with python / flask backend with docker and the knowledge of OOP for an internship but guess what...I need to know everything lmao

💀 😭

(im overreacting)

[near ocean]

I dont think its fair to ask a junior fullstack about the gil except maybe what it is and how it affects python code

[near remnant]

yeah, they told me that the questions were for seniors but they had to "fill" the time so they asked me (an intern) senior questions lmao...they said i shouldn't feel bad, lmao.
a bit weird.

[mild mica]

I studied chemistry at the university and I even learned those concepts

so I think they should know this

[near remnant]

why did you learn these concepts at chemistry lmao?

You studied Python Global Interpreter Lock at chemistry? interesting mate

[deft pelican]

Sounds low, I'm in Sweden and have had an 8% increase per year.

[mild mica]

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not but I really did

[near remnant]

Yeah I'm sarcastic

[mild mica]

generally engineers/scientists learn to program in python and C++

[near remnant]

So you are telling me that you learned about Python when you were studying chemistry?

[mild mica]

It is used for molecular dynamics simulations but also for plasma simulations

[near remnant]

Lmao

[mild mica]

yes dos

I had 3 courses in programming
Introduction to programming (c++ and python)

[near remnant]

That is some next level stuff, I know many people from chemistry background and they never learned anything programming related in uni

[mild mica]

shell scripting python and bash (terminal)

[deft pelican]

I think it's totally fine to not have heard about them either. If you are joining a dev team, you will quickly learn things like that during your first half year.

[mild mica]

and parallel programming but the last 2 courses

well now that I think about it all courses were not obligatory

[near remnant]

they said I can use a lot of stuff / tech in practice and this internship would be fine to catch up on theoretical stuff such as GIL for example

[mild mica]

but matlab was, but I don't see that as a programming language. We used it more for calculating chances of certain phenomena and statistics

[near remnant]

yeah I know, we used R

[mild mica]

yeah mathematicians and informatici learn R, we learn matlab

But matlab is very expensive and not many people share their scripts

[near remnant]

I really liked R during my master's, I wanted to become a data engineer but there are no junior jobs for that lmao

[mild mica]

I know a physicist who works in data engineering

[deft pelican]

I studied engineering in Sweden, we learned scheme, c++ and vhdl. And we were expected to magically soak in Matlab, Unix, verilog and probably some other stuff I have forgotten 😂

[near remnant]

@mild mica so, from chemistry to programming. are you working as a dev?

[mild mica]

But he done some sort of bootcamp

[near remnant]

bootcamp only worth it if they give you a job 100% at the end

[mild mica]

No, I don't need much programming to be honest

Like maybe 50/50 chemistry/programming

[near remnant]

i studied supply chain management for bsc and applied economics for msc
and how here i am, trying to get into tech

[mild mica]

And to be honest, a lot of us need it but there are a lot of scientist say they can program but they just use it to edit text files or edit graphs

very cringe tbh

[mild mica]

Cool, I also had one economy course as choice

It was my favorite course which is sad because all the rest was chemistry

but 2nd year of bachelor was boring as hell

[deft pelican]

BSC = Base Station Controller in my world 😅

[near remnant]

lmao

Sweden is really nice tho, i love it

[near remnant]

yung lean

[deft pelican]

Yes 🙈 midsummer tomorrow is national holiday 😎

[near remnant]

have u seen the movie midsommar?

[deft pelican]

Yes, I love it, it's so gross 😱 maybe time to re-watch it 🙈

[near remnant]

yeah, its creepy af

[coral tulip]

hey everyone, I've been thinking of going in the career of mechanical engineering (specifically gearing towards aerospace), and was wondering how I can start coding. I know the core basics like variables, loops, functions, libraries, and a bit of data analysis, but was wondering how I can start coding for mechanical engineering related things

[gritty rivet]

Just build stuff, whatever interests you. If you can buy an Arduino you may have fun with that.

[coral tulip]

I actually do have an arduino kit

[coral tulip]

but it has very limited things so I can do very limited things, especially with coding

[smoky quest]

what limits are you hitting with arduino? People have done some crazy stuff with it

You may want to check out #microcontrollers for project ideas or advice about the limits you hit

[gritty rivet]

Google around for project ideas. The most important thing is finding projects that interest you personally. There are a bunch of different libraries that might be worth learning here: https://www.verypossible.com/insights/why-mechanical-engineers-should-embrace-python-programming

[coral tulip]

limits from the arduino kit I have, not with arduino in general, arduino has a lot of potential

[delicate bane]

omg you were lowkey right

now i need to prepare some talking points bc otherwise if they let me ramble, i get too technical which i know is a big no-no for a non-technical audience

its bc i get too excited and become too nerdy. i need to make sure everything ties back to the business, otherwise its meaningless for them

[ivory sluice]

ayeeee!

what is this person's position or title? i have been pleasantly surprised by how technical some people amongst the execs i've met recently are

[delicate bane]

SVP & GM (basically of our vertical).

and this is true. ill go either more or less technical depending on their questions then

[frail summit]

may i ask how do i start learn to code cuz i have hard time learning it and to apply something etc 😄

[coral tulip]

this article talks about thermodynamics numerical analysis and cfd, but that's for later. I only know the basics like functions, loops, and variables, so where should I go from there?

[gritty rivet]

That's enough to make simple games or utilities... If you've never worked with classes or with SQLite, try those

[coral tulip]

I have used those to create some very small projects with my arduino kits

I have worked with classes when I started learning about object-oriented programming, never heard of or tried SQLite, so will look into that

[smoky quest]

For this reason, it helps to have the deeper technical slides as "appendix". So you don't show them by default, but you have them available in case

[delicate bane]

omg youre completely right. my data viz prof who is an analytics director as his day job said the same thing, but i seem to have forgotten this

[smoky quest]

lol am sure they are a great prof!
Also:

• Focus on max 1-3 points per slides
• Have slide numbers
• Be mindful of slides used during a talk (so no giant blob of texts and you don't read them literally) VS meeting slides (slides that are meant to be read at some point after or before the meeting)

[delicate bane]

very good stuff, thanks recursive

[smoky quest]

also in general, the higher you go, the more meta they are. So be mindful of the level of abstraction

[delicate bane]

they become more "strategic", right?

ah yes, getting the level of abstraction right is almost an art or so ive heard

[smoky quest]

yeah

[delicate bane]

[gritty rivet]

SQLite is a basic database, very useful to know... you can get help in #databases if you need it. Have fun!

[smoky quest]

less of an art, but more about what they care about.
As a M/D/V/C, you will take for granted that the team will figure out the implementation details. The question is more about the what/why

which is fair, because as an engineer, you are the expert and you are trusted to get it working

[delicate bane]

i see, i see

makes sense

[smoky quest]

in terms of data analytics, if your VP is technical, they might want to geek about it and see how you justify your numbers and stuff though. But depends on the situation and expectations. I would recommend to ask your manager or people around to get a sense of it

[delicate bane]

ok yeah thats some good advice. ill talk to my old boss and my current one

[smoky quest]

it's pretty important to understand why you have that meeting and what they want to get out of it.

[delicate bane]

thats true. i dont want to end up wasting people's time

[smoky quest]

and also your time preparing a completely different set of slides from what was expected

[delicate bane]

thats also true

[smoky quest]

but did they say there would be a presentation?

[delicate bane]

not really, so i think its a bit more lowkey than that

[smoky quest]

If it's just that message you shared, it sounds more like the online version of "let's take @delicate bane out for lunch to recruit them"

[delicate bane]

i do want to show some results from my current project

since i believe there is the potential to apply to their vertical / main product

[smoky quest]

sure. Make sure the IP is clear

[delicate bane]

thats true

its not necessarily the code but more the set of ML algorithms that could be applied; its also the same company - would that still be a problem? ill ask my current boss to be sure tho

[stuck helm]

How long should you stay at a company before going to another company? Like 2 to 5 years?

[gritty rivet]

There's no universal rule. That's plenty of time if you feel you're not learning a lot or making enough and could find better opportunities by moving on

It's not about how long it's about why

[sweet ermine]

do you guys use recruiters when looking for work, or apply to specific positions?

[rugged sparrow]

Totally agree with @gritty rivet. Depends. If the environment and work done allows you to improve as a Python developer there might be no date frame when to leave. Otherwise you will realise yourself when's the time..

[storm topaz]

Hi

I need some help

[smoky quest]

What kind of help? Also welcome!

[near ocean]

How would you guys quit from a job? Send an email? Request a meeting or mention it in a recurring meeting?

[smoky quest]

• Depends on your position
• Depends on your ramp down
• I would first talk about it verbally to my manager before announcing it further

I would also consider the timing of my stock/options/contributions

[storm topaz]

I wrote this code for fibonacci sequence and when starting from 0 it should print 1 two times but because I am removing the duplicates 1 only prints one time can someone help me please

[near ocean]

I dont plan on announcing it myself, i'd tell my manager and they can take it from there
But would I do it in person or is an email okay? Feels kinda cheap to just send an email

[smoky quest]

This has nothing to do with this channel, which is about #career-advice .I would recommend to check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[storm topaz]

numbers = []
num1 = 0
num2 = 1
limit = int(input("Enter the limit: "))
summation = 0
while summation <= limit:
    numbers.append(num1)
    numbers.append(num2)
    summation = num1 + num2
    num1 = num2
    num2 = summation
fibonacciSequence = []
for number in numbers:
    if number not in fibonacciSequence:
        fibonacciSequence.append(number)
fibonacciSequence.append(1)
fibonacciSequence.sort()
print("The sequence is:", end=' ')
for sequenceEntry in fibonacciSequence:
    print(sequenceEntry, end=' ')

[near ocean]

Im also on leave next week and i dont wanna do it through email on leave

[storm topaz]

can you tell me a solution in dm?

[smoky quest]

yeah don't do it over email. Have it in person or on a call

[storm topaz]

pls

[smoky quest]

I could but I don't want to since it's not respectful to the people here.
Begging only makes it worse

[smoky quest]

Just to be clear:

• Have it first verbally, whether in person or in a zoom/meet call
• Write it then down in an email to get an official record

It may kick off some additional process, especially around:

• Retention (let's bring in the big guns to impress you and promise you the moon)
• Return of stuff (ie. laptop)
• HR exit interviews
• HR software exit sometimes (ex: workday, rippling, etc.)

Things to be mindful on your way out:

• People will remember more their last impression of you. So even if it's your last few days/weeks, go even more the extra mile. You want them to miss you, not to be happy to get rid of you
• HR exit interview makes it tempting to say everything you have in your mind. Don't.
• Add folks on linkedin and enjoy your way out

also review your contract(s) for good measure

[near ocean]

I guess im more nervous about people turning salty than anything else
When they hired me they kept talking about years into the future and they still do, my manager yesterday was talking to me about helping with a potential partnership years from now lol
But its only been 10 months and they're gonna have to restart the hiring process

[smoky quest]

yeah, there is a lot of making people feeling good about it

don't dwell on how the company suck and more about how you trust the management and team in place and how everyone is gonna do fine

and to cover your ass, don't mention anything about them joining you. At best, stay very vague about crossing path in the far future of something. You wouldn't want to be sued for poaching your coworkers

Rule of thumb in the us: it's ok for your coworkers to contact your company to join them, but it's not okay for you to poach your coworkers for 6-12 months. It should be specified in your contract.
But I believe you are in the UK?

[near ocean]

Yes, i dont think that would ever be the case tho, all of my uk coworkers are either sales people or operations

Im leaving for a fullstack role, if they do end up in the same company i dont think it'd be an issue they'd probably be in a different dept

Not that close to coworkers anyway, part of the reason im going

[smoky quest]

the main problem is if someone finds an sms or an email from you telling them how the new company is awesome and how they should join it 😉

[near ocean]

Definitely not that close that i would keep contact after leaving lol, is that normal?

[smoky quest]

It's very common. Great people attract great people.
From both sides, if you know great people, you want them to come over since you enjoy their company and do great work. And if you know great people leaving to an interesting company, you may want a piece of the action too.

I was at a company A where there was such a huge exodus from company B that a VP from B called our CTO to yell at him about too many people leaving from his company to ours (they also used to work at the same company...)

That could also be attributed to me running a lot into startup circles. So joining a great startup means great stock/option gains 😉

But I also did observe it somewhat at larger companies too

[near ocean]

No stocks or options sadly, they actually did a buyback recently, not sure if thats a good or bad thing

[gilded valley]

It's usually a good thing - means they had money to spare

[near ocean]

just got off a 1on1 with my manager and he kept talking about investing in my professional development and the years to come and im about to leave in like a week or two
someone just shoot me in the face

[vapid jay]

Guys im on summer break as a student and ill be looking for a job. What should I do in my freetime to get more experience?

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. I am leaving my current company too, in just 3 months since I joined it
The company has just too small salary
And it is body shop company, they just had me put into a different company(for year+ contract) and just rob me of my salary. Their participation is zero.
And I don't like enough environment for skill growth

Half tempted perhaps to contact the company in which I was put and perhaps to discuss direct hiring

There is a plus to this experience nevertheless, I learned which companies to avoid. Plus it was kind of cool experience working with international teams.

A company should be having good salary or good skill growth environment(due to responsibilities I have), preferably both. The current company lacks both

[gritty rivet]

Recruiters are lying scum, but sometimes a necessary evil. Apply directly if possible, and if you must work with recruiters, be skeptical of what they say... Many of them will tell you anything they think you want to hear, to get you to take a job you don't really want

[near remnant]

Going to spend this Summer grinding leetcode everyday.

[delicate bane]

oof and yeah this might be a good idea

as long as the current company doesnt find out hopefully

[delicate bane]

theres not enough context here. what type of job? are you a uni or high school student? what do you already know?

[near remnant]

💀

[true harness]

i find it a little strange to have "Languages: Python, ..." then later say another skill you have is "Automation and Scripts in Python". you could probably save some space there by removing the latter one

[near ocean]

i think you should talk more about your projects, make that section bigger than skills
you say "pinpointed the relevant data and correlations from API data" but that sounds very generic, isnt that pretty much what all data science projects are? what did you understand from the data? is there some insight?

[true harness]

also, the second project,

Organized and wrote the process code for the data to train them ...
what's "them"? i agree with mariosis, there isn't a lot of detail. i have no idea what the projects are about

[merry pond]

hi

if I apply to a job described as 20-60% and I want, let's say, 40%. Do I mention that in my cover letter?

[near ocean]

what are these percentages of?

[coarse crag]

maybe salary

[gritty rivet]

I wouldn't settle for anything less then 100% of my salary

[coarse crag]

yeah

i mean, idk, the question itself is very questionable 🤣

[honest pivot]

Could mean the fraction of full time, for part time work

[coarse crag]

oh right right

[near ocean]

dont you just love it when they ask a question that needs clarification but then disappear forever

[coarse crag]

rip question

[honest pivot]

I mean kinda, now we don't have to think about it anymore

[weary gazelle]

If people like you at your job, and I'm assuming they do based off your messages, they will be extra nice to you once you hand in your notice. And even if they turn salty, why give a shit? There's a reason you quit after all

[brazen trail]

to add what @near ocean said, and others feel free to chim in, I almost think you should promote that Project/Experience section to the top

maybe start with an intro paragraph about how you are awesome

like yeah you are studying CS, of course you took all those courses, that doesn't need to be the start of it

[near ocean]

well I kind of agreed and suggested that I would stay for 1-2 years at least, which is part of the reason they hired me
I'm leaving not because the job is bad but because I got an offer for 150% what I currently earn lol

and since this is my first position I would like to keep them on good terms for references and possibly more work in the future

[weary gazelle]

if you don't hate the job, did you ask for a raise?

[weary gazelle]

very good shout, of course

[near ocean]

there's no way they would match the offer
I've been here 10 months and gotten 2 raises already

[weary gazelle]

but just for reference, the way I handed in my resignation at my old job was basically going to my boss saying "hi, we need to talk. i don't like my job anymore. here's my resignation". I'm still on good terms with him

[weary gazelle]

do you have like a proper offer you can sign or is it more a "we're hiring and pay this much"?

[near ocean]

I'm waiting for a contract right now, already had the tech interviews and HR call

[weary gazelle]

how about "hey, i got a job offer from company $Y is paying me $X which is a lot higher compared to my current salary. I would like to ask for a raise to match their offer or hand in my resignation"

depending on your role, it's also likely that it will cost your current company more to hire someone and train them in than it would cost them to give you a raise

[near ocean]

I don't think its the play ever to stay at a company you strongarm like that

you're basically putting a target on your back, if they could get me for my starting salary they'll get another guy, that leaves me on the defensive if they give me a notice

[weary gazelle]

that's true as well

but basically, if you tell them you're leaving for another company because they pay you more, chances are they will come to you two days later and offer you a higher salary than them

@rare sand probably has some saner ideas with this than me

[near ocean]

It's not just salary, that would make it easy
The new tech stack is python/react, more WFH days, better benefits, etc

[weary gazelle]

ahhhhhhh

[near ocean]

Right now I'm "operations support" pretty much, which is uninteresting python/vba and now increasing amounts of .NET and JS

[weary gazelle]

ops support is BORING

[last chasm]

Hello

[delicate bane]

what mariosis and void said. outside of that, i dont see anything that gives me any idea of what type of job you are looking for. maybe you are looking for a data science position as indicated with your projects but even then, you need to be specific about what areas of DS/ML you know. if you are instead looking for software engineering positions, i dont see anything that would help you stand out from others

[rare sand]

god, this is so dystopian. I'm sorry you have to deal with this sort of oppressive work environment.

at-will employment is basically a gulag.

[near ocean]

It's human nature, people don't like being strongarmed.

[summer roost]

IIRC mariosis is in the UK, and it's not at-will

Thus the mention of a contract above

[rare sand]

I was thrown by "if they give me notice"

[near ocean]

The problem is that the work I do isn't hard, there just wasn't anyone available to do it, but if I ask for more they'll probably start looking for someone else

[summer roost]

Indeed, replacing a worker with a contract with a cheaper one sounds very rare...

[rare sand]

if your only value to the company is the work you do, you're probably working the wrong place. There is value in retaining staff. Training people is expensive and takes a long time, and continuity and permanence is valuable.

[near ocean]

Maybe I'm being paranoid but I feel like if I get them to match the offer they'll start looking at me differently for costing them an extra 50% lol

[summer roost]

Regardless: if these people like you, they won't be mad about you finding a new job that is more in line with your interests and long term goals and also pays much better. And if they are mad, a) you're learning something about them, and probably wouldn't want to work with them in the future after all, and b) who cares, you've already given your notice and there's a limited amount of time you have to deal with them.

I've never had coworkers be salty when I quit a job. I'm sure it happens, but it's not the norm.

[rare sand]

agreed 100%

[vapid jay]

I am looking for software engineering positions.

[summer roost]

@near ocean Maybe a simpler way to think about how coworkers will react to you resigning: if they've never been unprofessional before, they're not likely to suddenly start.

[delicate bane]

yes but software engineering is still a big field (backend, frontend, mobile, enterprise, etc.), i would look up job listings and see which are the skills you have and can put on your resume afterward

[vapid jay]

For pyrhon they want like experience building projects in python, and other linux, ci cd, git etc. Stuff

[delicate bane]

ok ive given all the advice i have. i have nothing to add, sorry.

[vapid jay]

Are you a professional btw?

[delicate bane]

no im an intern

[stark lintel]

@frigid grotto

[frigid grotto]

Please dont be off topic here.

[stark lintel]

I would like to be a cop

[frigid grotto]

A python cop?

[stark lintel]

Yes

[frosty trout]

guys i have a prior experience at programming (javascript,unity-C#) and i wanted to learn python to have a job like i wanted to be serius about my future career i started learning the basics of python (variables - classes - functions - methods -etc) and i want to master it so my question is : based on your experience what advice can you give me,what should i do and what should i avoid .i will be grateful if you answered me 🙂

[honest pivot]

Yeah, as you've said, if you mention you have an offer for X, there's basically no point in negotiating a counter offer. If you did want to try to ask for a raise, you'd have to somehow justify it without mentioning your offer at all. And 50% does seem kinda far fetched.

[near ocean]

I got the offer and contract just now btw
But i have next week off and i dont wanna resign from a whole other country lol

[merry pond]

You just tag me then. The question is clear.

[delicate bane]

the question is not clear. there is not enough context

[coarse crag]

The question was not clear because you did not define what 40% means

and what is it that you want by mentioning 40%

[merry pond]

workload e.g. "Junior Developer 20-60%"

[near ocean]

What does that mean lol

[merry pond]

It means you work 20-60%

[near ocean]

So part time?

[merry pond]

yeah?

[summer roost]

40% of what? What's 100%?

[merry pond]

Like I don't get it what's confusing here?

[near ocean]

Ok then say so lol, part time and full time are terms we all understand

[summer roost]

Possibly that's a common term in whatever country you're in, but not one in whatever country the rest of us are in

I've never seen a job ad say "Junior Developer 20-60%", and I don't understand what that means, so you'll need to explain it to us if you want our advice

[merry pond]

So how do you state workload if not in %?

[near ocean]

You use hours because thats standard

[summer roost]

Hours per week

[coarse crag]

most of other countries use " x hours"

[summer roost]

Or possibly days per week

[coarse crag]

yeah but that's also rare cause most of us work from monday to friday

[near ocean]

If you work mon-fri then using hours per week is much easier

[merry pond]

If the ad states 10-30 hours, do you state how many hours you plan to work in your cover letter or is that something you do at the interview?

[near ocean]

I've never seen a flexible ad (i assume thats what they mean) but i would imagine it means you may work a minimum of 10h and will only be paid up to 30h of work per week

Have you already applied to this?

[merry pond]

No, you fix the amount in the contract.

[near ocean]

You have a contract already? Shouldnt you ask your contact at the company how it works?

[coarse crag]

it's rare in other countries to put hours of work in a job listing, usually they just tell you whether the position is full time or part time, and if it's part time usually you're gonna be given a shift OR a duration of how much you're gonna work in a week

[summer roost]

What country is this in, out of curiosity? I've never heard of anything this.

[coarse crag]

same

[merry pond]

No. They state "we need someone, you can work 10-30 hours" and then you say " I wanan work 20 hours" and they give you a contract "20h per month".

[merry pond]

Switzerland

[near ocean]

That is the weirdest thing i've ever heard

So did you decide on work hours already?

[merry pond]

I mean I know how much time I have for work, so yeah.

[summer roost]

You may just need to ask some Swiss people, I think. This entire concept seems unique enough that I doubt we'd be able to give you informed advice.

[coarse crag]

yeah, i believe this is more about cultural thing

[near ocean]

Yea i dont think this is something for the cover letter tbh

[merry pond]

Yeah I figured it's like something "not special"

[near ocean]

A cover letter is supposed to be about you, what attracted you to the job, your values, etc, this is just contractual stuff

Then again, i dont write cover letters so 🤷

[merry pond]

Men I never noticed that's some "regional" thing.

[honest pivot]

I've never heard of anyone hiring a part time developer in the first place

[merry pond]

Not too common but exists

[coarse crag]

usually, instead of part time developer, it's more like freelance where you do the job (until it's finished) one time for x amount of money..

just saying

[merry pond]

yeah but there are also, how do you call it "fixed" position sometimes but mostly student jobs "working student" is what it's called here. But it's rare.

[summer roost]

I've seen part time dev jobs for students before. I've never seen them after the student level, though I suppose they exist

[balmy spade]

I suppose the fact that I spend about 15-20 hours a week in code and the other 20-30 hours in meetings just means I have a full-time job that is part-time coding. :3c

We had a few part-time engineers a year or two back. About 25 hours a week, there to contribute and drive the planning of a large project.

[merry pond]

So apparently I have resp. can submit a portfolio? Dev do that? Does someone have an example of such a thing? I only know that from frontend devs.

furthermore: Do you list all you knowledge or do you just list the stuff that's relevant for the position?

[mortal wedge]

So I'm looking for some advice on how to handle a situation. I was the core developer at this company for a good long time, then a junior got promoted up. Because we had differing opinions and some github "wars" we started putting a lot of formal processes in place that were previously unnecessary with just me developing. Formal code reviews, collaborative meetings with some stakeholders/experts, regular syncs with our clients, the whole nine.

Anyway, this developer pushed a last minute change AFTER all that, that drastically changed the behavior of some core functions and results in behavior drastically different from what was reviewed, collaborated on, presented in meetings, etc. I happened to be running my validation suite and it broke all the validation warnings I had set up. I presented this information and he's doubling down on this and spamming me with messages on slack about how much I hate him how unfair it is, etc etc etc.

I talked to our boss about it and he said he would talk to him, but I have an upcoming collab meeting with our stakeholders. It's small, about 5 people, but it has experts in the field and all major programming decisions need to be run through the group. I lead this group. I'm trying to figure out how to handle running the next meeting. Do I call this joker out and reiterate to everyone how important the process is? Do I try to just bring it up as if this was a regular project proposal? I think he wasted everyone's time and it's completely disrespectful to the whole group and everyone involved, I don't particularly feel like covering this up. Any thoughts?

[smoky quest]

yeah that sounds stressful.
That said, forgive my bad analogy, but it's like dogs and their owners. I don't blame the dog, I blame the owners who let them do that. To that end, I see three main avenues to this problem:

• They are junior, and you aren't (or don't want to appear as such). Lowering yourself would just make you look as junior as them.
• They are junior and immature by the look of it. Who is managing and coaching them? How effective are they at it? Have you talked to them about your problems with them? Why are they validating the wrong opinions of a junior engineer who goes against best practices?
• They are junior and immature as you mention very feeling oriented words (how you hate him, unfair, etc). So rather than burning up the relationship and making it confrontational, I would work towards making them understand you are trying to do what's best for the company and that's not personal. You are the bigger and more mature and experienced person here

While I do understand you don't necessarily care anymore, all of these would point towards you taking the professional approach in that meeting. Not pushing them under the bus and neither covering them, but taking a blameless approach.
If they want to act immaturely during that meeting, let them make a fool of themselves and do not lower yourself to their level.

[balmy spade]

You should absolutely not call anyone out in a meeting with stakeholders. If they call themselves out, that's another case, but don't be the aggressor here. The only meeting you should call them out in is with HR.

I presented this information and he's doubling down on this and spamming me with messages on slack about how much I hate him how unfair it is, etc etc etc.
This is unprofessional and unacceptable in any situation that I'm familiar with. Your location/company millage needs to weigh in here.

Handle the meeting professionally and calmly as you would.

[mortal wedge]

I was originally in charge of coaching him, but my boss at one point stupidly tried to foster a rivalry between us hoping it would boost productivity

He hasn't listened to anything I've said, since

[balmy spade]

Do you have an HR department that can step in? You need a moderator that isn't your boss, imo.

[summer roost]

That definitely depends on the country. In countries where résumés are the norm, you're expected to include only your most relevant experience. In countries where a CV is the norm, you're expected to include all experience.

[mortal wedge]

I do, but ugh. I came forward to HR already once about almost this exact situation, a few months ago

[smoky quest]

if your boss isn't supporting you, it's unlikely HR will, unless some lawsuits could be at risk