career-advice

[livid moat]

you'll have to drive 11 km to turn a server on and off because jim took a vacation at the worst time after you switched his dark roast to decaf and he spilled it on his shirt

def not speaking from experience

[plush rover]

hello guys can you enter software engineering in university without maths A level in the UK, what are the requirements?

[gilded valley]

You can, but not into the best universities. Almost all Russel group universities will be asking for A-Level maths.

[plush rover]

sorry what's a russel group

[gilded valley]

I would suggest looking through what different universities ask as entry requirements

Russel group is the UK equivalent of Ivy league - it's just the top universities in the country

[plush rover]

oh right

would some form of english a level + comp sci + history enter you into that

also what other coding based courses are there?

[gilded valley]

(English Language A-Level is a pretty low-value A-Level, if you want to do English, literature is quite a bit more valuable)

Most good universities ask for A-Level maths, there's probably some good ones that you can get into without it, but I'm not sure what they are. I would suggest you just pick a few universities out of a hat and start looking through the pages for their various courses and see what the requirements are and what their courses look like.

As for what courses are available, off the top of my head the common ones are: Computer Science, Computing (like CS but a little more practical), Software Engineering, Cyber Security, and Data Science.

If you're currently picking your A-Levels, I would recommend picking three that you like the sound of (History, CS, and English Lit for example) and if your college/sixth-form lets you pick 4, take Maths as the fourth one - if you really can't hack A-level maths, drop it in the second year, but it's really worth trying to stick it out

[plush rover]

that sounds like a good idea yes

yes my sixth form allows 4 subjects

thank you very much

[graceful mason]

Just because a uni doesn't require maths doesn't mean it won't increase your chances of getting a place there by the way. If they've got to choose between two students with 120 points and one has maths, they're more likely to consider them

[plush rover]

yes that is true

[ivory sluice]

@vapid jay did you post that link by accident? this is career discussion on python discord

[smoky quest]

Note also that something that can be delegated as a summer job to a student is not something employers would be willing to pay more than minimum wage 😉
The complexity of the work would be low and pool of applicant far larger

[balmy forum]

i have a question why did you change the server logo ?

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome! this has nothing to do with #career-advice .
That said, the answer you are looking for is in #changelog

[balmy forum]

ok sorry

[strange turtle]

What sort of salary should I be expecting with 20 years in security/threat intelligence, 8 in python, and AWS skills?

[peak halo]

that's going to depend on more variables and locality knowledge than we can account for. try using glassdoor.com instead.

[smoky quest]

It's also about which roles you would map to

[peak halo]

I would

1. look for job listings that mention those things you just said
2. see what that company pays people with the same title and years of experience in your region

[obtuse talon]

Agreed

[vital wolf]

any one using canva?

[smoky quest]

How does that relate to #career-advice ?

[vital wolf]

resume

[smoky quest]

what's the actual question then?

[near ocean]

What you use for your resume doesnt matter at all

(As long as it can generate a pdf)

[vernal yew]

anyone know how i can get a gig as a python tutor

[vital wolf]

iam trying to create resume using canva but got some problem.accidently one border line is placed in my resume.i tried all my ways to remove nothing is changed

[smoky quest]

I would probably look more for communities centered around design and canvas

[lean swan]

Does anyone have Python for Data analysis book and wants to sell it??

[vernal yew]

ye

i have the one by Wes McKinney

[lean swan]

Sell it to me please

[lean swan]

Yeah . That's what I want 😐

[vernal yew]

how much??

[lean swan]

You tell!

[vernal yew]

check dms

[ivory sluice]

hi guys, please do any sales or trades off the server. and I'd also be very careful of doing business online

[vernal yew]

I would too

[vital wolf]

tell me the name

[near ocean]

Cant you look them up yourself?

[smoky quest]

am not a designer. So I would be a bad recommendation 🦞

(and I also don't know any)

[spare zinc]

any advise for starter software development?

[sleek plaza]

one of my goals is to become a software developer.. I am planning on learning Python to help me learn other languages easier

My question to you is can you become a software developer using python only?

[near ocean]

you can, its going to be harder
the fewer technologies you know the harder it is to be hired obviously, but there are stories of people in here landing jobs only with python

there's no reason IMHO to limit yourself to python, if you learn python you can learn JS, C#, Java
you shouldnt make it harder for yourself for no reason

actually i was also hired for my python but i was told i'd have to learn other things for the job as well

[sleek plaza]

thats what I was thinking

as of right now I know a few basics of Python. I was going understand the logic of coding by learning Python.. then go over to Java.. from my research it seems like going from 0 to python is much harder than going from python to java/C#

[near ocean]

your first language is always going to be the hardest

[sleek plaza]

Am I going about it the right way??

[near ocean]

starting with python? yes

[sleek plaza]

Thank you for answers

I really appreciate it

[near ocean]

most CS degrees use python as an intro language, others use Java, mine used both

[sleek plaza]

Interesting

Currently I am using Learn Python the Hard Way as my source

[near ocean]

that resource is not recommended here, I asked why and mods got back to me with their reasoning and i agree, but i dont remember where that convo was

i would start with !resources, specifically the book "Automate the boring stuff"

[sleek plaza]

I have heard that book alot

Thank you so much man

[gilded valley]

!resources has a bunch of other possible starting points as well

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[obsidian brook]

sss

[tardy hinge]

Hey, i have completed my master in physics recently and realised may I'm not that good in solving physics problems in limited time though I'm good in theory.im not in position to spend another 5 years persuing PhD. I had studied c++ and SQL before my bachelor's are was good it it. Had some course in c and data structures in bachelor and 2 python and data science courses in master . I'm thinking you changing career. I don't know actually to do or I don't have any specific job in target at present. If anyone can guide.. I will be thankful

[near remnant]

Team leader during last week's interview told me that I need to install this and that, look up some stuff before start and we gonna have a final "interview" talking about the contract and stuff. Its Monday and I haven't received anything so far. Should I let this go? Or just wait?

[novel pine]

I see no reason not to call and double check to see what's happening.

[flint hearth]

So I am having a really hard time finding a job as of late.

My suspicion is that I am doing something wrong as, volumetrically, I think I am safe.

I applied to at least 300 jobs and all but one (the one was for .NET programming, no thanks) responded back to me. I really want a Python job where I can do data science because that's eventually where I want to be heading.

[gray night]

where do i go to get help with my program

[humble tusk]

i have exactly same issue i dont know why but i wont stop applyinh

[flint hearth]

I even applied to a place that has been having a hard time hiring data science interns and they still said no.

[flint hearth]

Could it be the market at the moment or is it because of talent acquisition people looking for really talented people.

I would not say I am dumb but I only have about five projects on my GitHub at the moment that are public.

[humble tusk]

they never asked me about my project actually they only telling me what is your favorite project you are work

because i am also working right now but i wanna to change my company

[flint hearth]

Ah I see, I am in a similar position.

[humble tusk]

its not related to my major anymore i feel like i am stucked here

[flint hearth]

Mine is related but it is very slow and I don't like it here.

[humble tusk]

and other problem for example i am getting some interview it perfect i am passing most of them but when it comes to coding assesment i was like you guys see my level form my resume and please look what are you guys asking me

[flint hearth]

Yea I have not gotten a single interview yet.

[humble tusk]

are you on linkedin ?

[flint hearth]

Yep, and that's where I am applying from.

[humble tusk]

they usually reach out to you and search also remotely or onsite

[flint hearth]

I have not had a single person reach out to me.

[humble tusk]

i hope that we ll get through this because its bothering me alot

i was also looking for people who can give referance

[near remnant]

How long have u been applying? Are u a student?

[honest pivot]

Everything I've heard about the market is that it is really tough for anyone entry level, but is pretty good if you are more experienced

[unique zenith]

Hello Folks, I'm Currently learning Data Science and i have learned Python, Numpy, Pandas, Matplotlib and SQL, i was wondering if im going to be in a need to learn Linux or Windows Commands, is that a job requirement or just an extra ?

[honest pivot]

I'm sure you got some basic familiarity with at least one of those while learning all the others

[unique zenith]

Awesome, Yet, is it something that an employer may reject me if im not aware of these OS commands ?

[honest pivot]

Not sure specifically about memorizing commands, being comfortable with Linux is certainly a plus. You only need to know a handful of commands to navigate in the terminal anyway, I basically google almost everything I need.

[unique zenith]

Sounds good, Thanks a lot, im thankful for your help

[flint hearth]

I've been applying for about 2 months.

I am a student but I have more than enough experience for an entry level job. Linux is my main operating system so I have plenty more scripting experience than the average Windows user too.

[near remnant]

Yeah, idk man. It is hard, but you should not overthink it.

[unique zenith]

@flint hearth I've seen many people pass that obstacle by referrals, If you've colleagues working for a specific company reach out to them and ask them to refer you to their company, or connect with strangers who work for a company you're interested in and ask them to refer you, you will mostly land on someone who is willing to help, and strangers are mostly keen on checking other people's projects compared to recruiters

Udemy for example hires 40% of their employees almost by referrals

[flint hearth]

I recently tried that. There is a job where my friend works at and he said that they even had a hard time finding recruits.

However, I got an email that says I am rejected. I'm feeling pretty hopeless and I am blaming my skills.

[humble tusk]

Trust me I believe that wasn't the time for you. I was blaming myself too. Sometimes you have to be lucky my friend he is a tester he apply as a tester and they took him as a c# developer.

[graceful mason]

might be worth sharing your CV to see if there's anything there that's turning them off

[humble tusk]

definetly

[unique zenith]

Never give up mate or blame yourself, I always believe that There's always room for improvements , So keep grinding and you will get to your destination

[honest pivot]

I think it can be quite difficult to make an effective CV, especially when you're starting out. It's one thing to have skills, but it's another to effectively show that you have them.

[near remnant]

Use LaTeX

[honest pivot]

eh, I haven't been happy with any LaTeX CV templates

[near remnant]

I love it

[flint hearth]

I think this is where I am at.

I feel like I probably didn't show myself off enough. I had a pretty conservative CV.

[honest pivot]

You can remove identifying information and paste it here and people might have advice to give

[near remnant]

Btw, if the company told me last week that they will invite me to the final interview this week and I still haven't got anything, should I just wait? They said that I should expect the interview on the first half of the week.

[honest pivot]

Just wait, I just went through a process where they said they would get back to me by a certain day, and it ended up being a week later, multiple times

[near remnant]

I got referred by the lead developer so I'm optimistic but yeah

[unique zenith]

If they didn't commit to the schedule they gave, There's probably a reason behind it, It's always ok to ask the recruiter or Talent Acquisition to be on the same page

I've worked as a data analyst close to the Recruiting staff, and i got that advice from them

[honest pivot]

They are probably just busy. If they said they're going to invite you for a final interview, they will, don't worry

[near remnant]

What do you mean by "reason behind it"? Bcus the lead dev exactly told me that we will have the interview this week and I should think about when I want to start, lmao

[unique zenith]

That means perhaps they are busy or behind schedule for instance and most recruiters don't give away such information to applicants, But my statement was based on "Not committing to the appointment they mentioned to you"

[near remnant]

They said they will try to arrange an interview so yeah. I probably should just wait. Thanks guys

[delicate bane]

DS is extremely saturated at entry level; youre competing against grad students so many companies filter out many that arent

or those with actual work experience from another field

[delicate bane]

yeah i mean its monday here still so you should just wait lol

[near remnant]

Fair enough

[pastel thunder]

ok, so i asked this proffesor(say dr. x ) for guidance in research

in computer vision
then x asks me if i know ruby on rails , javascript

then he ask be to have a training in ruby in rails

i am perplexed

he said he will give me DL research position based on my performance on ruby and js training

[smoky quest]

you could ask dr. x about the context of the project and how they all fit together

[dawn leaf]

I am very skeptical that you will be doing DL research in ruby or js

[delicate bane]

sounds like he needs a web dev for his DL app

[dense mesa]

From what you've mentioned about this company, it really sounds like they may be tricking you

[near ocean]

i got a call from some recruiter guy and he told me to rewrite my cv in the style their company uses and then sent me a literal essay in the email body

[pastel thunder]

Actually his are of work is also Computer vision, ML etc

[near ocean]

people need to be trained on RoR?

there's tons of free resources, Rails was super popular

[pastel thunder]

Lmao see this too^

But i am kinda still very happy to get a reply after 200 emails

[near remnant]

https://tenor.com/view/kekw-kek-bttv-twitch-emote-gif-15123134

[narrow owl]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/810992930247802890/985991910797762640/unknown.png

some feedback i got on my new job from a client :3 i'm glad im doing well

[oblique vapor]

Explaining what

[narrow owl]

Python stuff

[oblique vapor]

👍

[near remnant]

i don't know anything anymore man

[dense mesa]

Fully understand you, it's not a good situation to be in if they're doing it. Don't put your eggs in one basket, keep applying, keep learning, never let one company dictate what you're doing

[near remnant]

Sure, that's what I'm doing. I just graduated with my master's and trying to take a break and relax while applying for jobs. I'm going to have 3 other interviews this and next week.

I just thought this is really in the bag already, and it might be, I just need to wait...I guess. 😄 thanks for the input mate!

[dense mesa]

You are clearly a smart and talented person for them to take, so if they're gonna try to screw you over then just walk away

After doing loads of applications and learning more about different technologies, you'll be way better placed on applications

[turbid bobcat]

Hi, how can I get opportunities at google for example ?

I have like 6-7 months of experience, but have been told many times that I am capable.

The thing is that they receive tons of CVs, and use automated ATS and stuff like that. Is there a good recipe for a junior to get noticed here?

[tribal token]

Start messaging recruiters on LinkedIn. At the junior level it’s all a numbers game. Grow your own network and you’ll start to see managers posting looking for talent and you can message them directly

[turbid bobcat]

I'm looking for FAANG specifically tho. I already get a lot of attention.

[tribal token]

If you’re getting a lot of attention then why are you posting asking how to get noticed

[turbid bobcat]

It's harder to get noticed at these companies specificay.

And was wondering if anyone had tips

[smoky quest]

if you don't know anyone to push your name, then applying would be the most straightforward answer (pick 1-3 jobs max)

[proven sky]

hell

hello guys*

[brittle mountain]

Has anyone had experience with commission based jobs?

I have just graduated highschool and was just recently told I received a position at a startup this summer. I would be helping to create matches between job seekers and employers on a new platform.

It would be commission based and I would be paid when we get successful matches between applicants and employers. They already have people interested, apparently most of the job is to recruit employers to sign with us.

Any thoughts?

[near ocean]

i would avoid them like the plague, get a job with a decent base salary and bonus (as extra), dont rely on commissions

[smoky quest]

that doesn't sound like a tech job.
Also given the current economic situation and forecast, many companies are freezing hiring, which has or is about to make your job much harder

[vapid jay]

is there anyone who could give me a basic list of all the skills someone would need to get started with backend development?

i understand i'd need the basics, HTML, CSS, Jscript, etc but what else. python or java? Nodejs or ExpressJs?

also is a degree necessary for a career in backend development or software engineering? i know itd help to have one, but what issues could i face if i didnt have one?

[true harness]

see roadmap.sh

[vapid jay]

Ive already reviewed this. Is there any firsthand info anyone could give me?

[smoky quest]

my first hand info is that roadmap.sh is correct

[vapid jay]

yeah i understand its correct but i was wondering about any other tips or guidance outside of roadmap.sh

[smoky quest]

Also a degree is the standard way to enter into the field. So if you are in HS or college-age, I would definitely, very much, highly recommend to get one

[vapid jay]

alright thank you. would it be reasonable for someone to believe they can work in the field without the degree?

[smoky quest]

Working in the field and finding a job is definitely possible. But it's going to be very unlikely to get the high salaries and very interesting jobs or high tech companies like FAANG without one

it's like a nurse vs a doctor. They won't do the same thing and won't be compensated the same way

[vapid jay]

alright thank you

[smoky quest]

keep in mind that a degree is definitely interesting and worth learning. It's not just a piece of paper

There is a reason people spend 3-5 years full time on it 😉

[vapid jay]

yes i know this, its just that due to certain circumstances i may not be able to study at university. the idea of studying for a degree does interest me in of itself

[smoky quest]

in the US, you may want to look into community colleges, grants or even student loans

[vapid jay]

not in the US and finances arent necesaarily an issue due to student loans being available, its just not meeting certain entry requirements

[indigo ibex]

Do anyone know any basic internship in python?

[smoky quest]

These internships would be more geared towards datascience, backend or general automation

If you want a list, you should search on job sites like linkedin or indeed

[indigo ibex]

i have applied for some but they ask for experience duh

[smoky quest]

did you apply to internships? Because internships would not require experience, by definition

[indigo ibex]

yeah🥲 the basic requirements wrote some experience in that particular field

[smoky quest]

do you have an example?

by "experience", it is typically understood "professional experience". But in the ads, they may ask for familiarity (ie. can you use that language/framework/library)

[indigo ibex]

like in data analysis one they asked for advanced powerbi and sql

[smoky quest]

do you have a link?

[smoky quest]

see https://www.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=a7e0fe9186c14312&from=serp&vjs=3 for instance. There is no requirement of professional experience. And that's the first link I found

[indigo ibex]

it is old now, i will send u once I come across another one

[indigo ibex]

can u send me what did u typed ?

[smoky quest]

indeed.com -> "internship java"

[indigo ibex]

Ty

[near remnant]

i just had a really weird interview experience.
they asked zero technical questions, they haven't even asked about my projects...wtf?!

[coarse crag]

wait, so what was happening throughout the whole interview process?

[near remnant]

Just talking about myself and the position, lmao

[crude rune]

Have u guys done a Azure or AWS certification?

[coarse crag]

oooh, i see i see, not sure if that's a good thing or not.. maybe they're trying to use different method of evaluating candidates.. either way, i hope you'll get the job, good luck!

[true harness]

interviews aren't just to see if you're qualified, they also need to test if you're going to be a good fit at the company

[versed locust]

cause of gay month

[gritty rivet]

I'm just starting to work on the AWS Practitioner.

[gritty rivet]

Some companies do the technical stuff up front but I don't think it's uncommon for HR to do their general stuff first

[near remnant]

It was with two developers and the team leader

Anyways, I'm still waiting for the invitation for the other job..damn, the waiting game is so bad

[gritty rivet]

Best not to think about and just keep applying until you have an offer in hand 🙂

but yeah, I know the feeling

[near remnant]

Yeah mate, that's what I'm doing, and just relaxing haha, trying to

[near remnant]

do you think it would be a bad idea to inquire about the next interview? from the guy who referred me to the company

[gritty rivet]

when was your last interview and where did you leave things? I mean, if it was yesterday and he said we'll get back to you by the end of the week, give them time. If it was more vague and it's been longer, definitely follow up

it also matters how interested you are in the position... if you really want it, I would err on the side of following up, just don't be annoying

[near remnant]

It was last Wednesday and he told me that I should expect the next interview this week

[gritty rivet]

then it is totally reasonable to send a quick check-in email if you're strongly interested in the position

[near remnant]

What do you think what should I say in the email?

[gritty rivet]

thank him again for the previous interview, reaffirm that you are interested in the position and would like to proceed. if you have any limitations in when you can be available for an interview, maybe mention that, or just say you're available any day this week if that's the case. I would keep it very brief and direct.

[near remnant]

Thanks

[near remnant]

Jeez I just realized the interview was 3 days ago, lmao... Well, whatever. I sent it anyways.

[near remnant]

Am I fucked?

[near remnant]

Thanks guys for the emotes lmao

[vapid jay]

#discord-bots

[near remnant]

@true harness thanks

@livid moat thanks

[livid moat]

?

[hearty island]

confusion

[livid moat]

what did i do lol (also why is slowmode so damn high)

[near remnant]

Emotes on my message

[livid moat]

bruh

[gritty rivet]

we're all going to die eventually, not because of an email though

it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong

[near remnant]

They responded, I got an invite for the final interview.

[torn scroll]

guys what are the help channels

and why cant i message in them

[gritty rivet]

there are three active at a time, the rest are dormant... see#❓｜how-to-get-help... also this is the career channel, general questions can go to #python-discussion

you know better then we do, we only have what you told us. look at all the details you can find about the role, see if anyone has posted online about interview process at the company, etc.

[torn scroll]

thanks

[near remnant]

They also said that this final interview will be just about motivation etc, and contract stuff. Any recommendation? @gritty rivet

[gritty rivet]

I would say just go in with some good questions in mind that you want to ask. Research the company as well as you can so your questions are well-informed. There are lots of lists like these for inspiration: https://www.themuse.com/advice/51-interview-questions-you-should-be-asking

[near remnant]

Yeah, I guess this is just a "formality" interview since they wanna talk about my contract but yeah. Will be prepared with some questions and also just trying to remain calm, etc. Its an internship tho.

[gritty rivet]

right, you don't have a lot to worry about at this stage

[vapid jay]

Scuse me fella

[near remnant]

Thanks mate. Btw, who is your profile picture? 🤣

[gritty rivet]

that's me

[near remnant]

Bruh

[livid moat]

.bm

[final lotus]

is it a characature or sum?

[gritty rivet]

LOL, we're far off topic but since you're all so insistent: https://www.loc.gov/static/exhibitions/women-fight-for-the-vote/images/objects/ws0047_standard.jpg

that chactecure of an "idiot" does really look like he could be my slightly better-looking twin brother

[analog sun]

Hello, please don't recruit on the server. Thanks

[queen ore]

That's the point, I don't..

[analog sun]

The same applies for advertising services related to recruiting

!rule 6 7 9

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

7. Keep discussions relevant to the channel topic. Each channel's description tells you the topic.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[queen ore]

Then Brad, what's the purpose of #career-advice here anyway?

[analog sun]

The topic at the top of the channel describes it pretty well.

[dense mesa]

To discuss careers and not spam

[queen ore]

Alright then. But this isn't spam.. It was actually HELP

I thought this way Technology and HR would come closer @analog sun

[fringe pine]

@proven delta Please get permission from the admins before promoting in the server. Contact @severe widget

[whole wasp]

I emailed the manager to reschedule who I’m interviewing tomorrow and got an auto reply saying he’s out of office till next week. How is he doing the interview then tomorrow. The recruiter is also out on pto.

[burnt owl]

Does anyone know of a good place where I can do like short python programming commissions for like £20 or more or something. Like quick tasks that need to be done asap?

[delicate bane]

sometimes people forget to remove their OoO setup or perhaps they are really OoO but are interviewing you tomorrow

[iron crest]

Would you take a SysAdmin position while still looking for your first job as a Developer? Are there any negatives to having SysAdmin on your resume while applying to Development roles?

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't:

• I wouldn't be happy as it's not what I want to do
• It would make it harder to apply to development roles later

[near remnant]

damn mate

would it be a good idea to do leetcode everyday while doing my internship?

[near ocean]

Sure, it'd probably be boring anyway

[near remnant]

I think it'd be a good idea as well since I have many projects, also a fullstack project so I could just focus on doing leetcode and doing the internship.

[smoky quest]

there would be some diminishing returns though on the leetcode

[near ocean]

I sometimes do leetcode at work, whenever i dont have much to do, usually at the end of the day

[near remnant]

what do you mean?

I just don't how could I learn python more / better

[smoky quest]

For the purpose of interviews, it won't add value past a certain point. But if you want to do it for fun as mentioned by @ mariosis, go for it

[near remnant]

Do you have any other idea to actually learn Python? I know the syntax, OOP, etc., and made projects but I still feel like I don't know enough (I'll probably feel like this way for long)

[smoky quest]

There are many deeper topics related to python, software design, system architecture, craftmanship, tooling, etc.
But if you are at an internship at a remotely interesting company, I am pretty sure they must be dealing with some interesting problems and I would prioritize that as a way to maximize the learning and value of your internship

If the company or the internship aren't interesting, then that's a missed opportunity for you

[smoky quest]

Taking OOP as an example, have you used the design patterns from the gof or eip?

[near remnant]

It is, I'll be working with backend, debugging, testing, ORM, etc

[near remnant]

No

[smoky quest]

then I would focus on these.
You can learn stuff about CS and leetcode any time, but you only have one shot at your internship

[near remnant]

Yeah, good idea. I'll try to learn about these beforehand so I can start better

Hopefully this internship will help with finding a junior job or they will hire me after the internship, we'll see

[smoky quest]

make the most out of it

and learn about the world of the enterprise in general. How do teams organize, how do different teams interact, what do the marketing people do? What do the other teams do? Why do they do what they do?

be curious

[near remnant]

Alright mate, thank you for your thoughts

[buoyant seal]

Read books on topics further
Incorporate knowledge into everyday work
Try new technologies in pet projects

Green is SWE
Yellow is backend
Purple is Python

[near remnant]

Thanks! Honestly, I just feel like I don't know enough for this internship, I know it's normal to feel that way tho but yeah...

[buoyant seal]

Learning in IT is pretty much like long technology tree in some computer game. It spirals to Infinity

[near remnant]

https://tenor.com/view/damn-mad-gif-22552237

[near ocean]

What about "things we never even thought possible" lol

[plush spindle]

How to learn panda and matplotlib ?

[grave vigil]

I'm doing that right now.
Take a spreadsheet that has some statistics which may be related to some degree and try and manipulate them using the libraries.

Draw some plots and edit some dataframes. Learn their data structures.

Essentially, learn it through usage: Project Based Learning.

[plush spindle]

Hmmm

I was thinking like a book or course tbh

[coarse crag]

damn thanks!

[vapid jay]

there are plenty of good courses too, but most of them come with a fee, because they tend to be intermediate/advanced

[near remnant]

How do people get jobs without leetcode?

[buoyant seal]

leetcode is just not asked 🤷 at least in my area

[near ocean]

They apply to employers that respect them enough not to test them with irrelevant puzzles

My first job gave me problems related to issues they were dealing with at work

Couple other interviews i've done have also given me work related problems, if i show up at some interview and they have me do weird algorithmic shit i would not be happy

[tardy nest]

idk if all investment banks do this but I got an offer from Morgan Stanley with no leetcoding.

And some defense contractors too

[peak halo]

You suck. ||this person left the server on their own after saying this.||

[plush spindle]

How brave

[gritty rivet]

I'd say one or two a week is probably a better way to pace yourself and keep it going all summer. Then if you feel like you need to cram, do one or two a day for a week or two.

[near ocean]

the daily leet isnt that bad + you get it marked down on the calendar which feels good

[delicate bane]

instead of circle, i think of a technology tree that just keeps going and adding more nodes, especially when new technology / knowledge / paradigms /etc. comes out

[clever magnet]

Thanks a lot for sharing this, it is quite insightful looking at the bigger picture. I've been trying to create a learning strategy for myself as I realized aimlessly learning this or that isn't going to be sustainable as a career even if it is quite fun and there are some things that ARE expected of an experienced programmers like their knack for good architectural practices and so on which I've neglected all my career. 😅 So yeah, the big picture is daunting to say the least but at least seeing all the common branches of knowledge makes the anxiety a little bit controlled

[dense mesa]

I used to do Leetcode as interview prep and then started doing them for fun

[gritty rivet]

Don't get daunted too easily. If you like it and can keep at it regularly, you'll eventually be good enough to make a living at it, if that's what you want to do. It's overwhelming how much there is to learn, but just being able to write simple snippets of Python is still a surprisingly valuable skill

For me personally, I needed a bootcamp (Nucamp Backend)... it was exactly the structure I needed to go from amateur to professional. Everyone's journey is different though, so my main point is, just don't give up or be intimidated by all there is to learn

[buoyant seal]

u a welcome. I drew it based on my own exp xD except I did not add all the discovered nodes in DevOps fields, and a bit of nodes discovered in Frontend, which I explored too.

[buoyant seal]

I like to see it as a growing a sphere, because, a lot of path go in parallel to each other and synergize themselves if known both.

in the end I think it all looks like a tree graph, which has at least a start, and grows outward more and more
the image i drew above kind of already shows a bit of it, there is quite a lot of interconnections already
Yeah, the graph that grows like sphere xD

[delicate bane]

thats true. more and more things start to/can synergize down the line

[smoky quest]

Do you really want a job where the technical skills of your coworkers aren't tested?
In general, if leetcode worries you too much, that's a sign of deeper problems with algorithms and datastructures

[near remnant]

What? No. Have you actually read my other messages?

Probably not

[near ocean]

I don't agree here
Im not applying to a job to do leetcode type puzzles, i apply to work on real products

Besides, do enough leetcode and you'll be good at it, literally means nothing

[smoky quest]

You posted a bunch yesterday and I haven't seen you posting any message around that one within 1-2h timeframe. Am I missing something?

[near remnant]

Yeah u do

When did I say that I worry about leetcode?

[smoky quest]

Did I say you do?

[peak halo]

before things become too contentious, @near remnant, would you mind restating what you're interested to know wrt leetcode questions?

[near remnant]

Well, I was just curious if I should start doing leetcode problems everyday while I'm going to be doing my 3 months long internship.

[honest pivot]

I don't understand why you would do this during your internship in particular

[near ocean]

Why wouldnt you?

[near remnant]

I'm just trying to maximize my time but it might be a stupid idea yeah. Probably should just focus on the internship and trying to get an offer from it. They wanna hire me after the internship if I reach the level they want

[peak halo]

if you want to do leetcode questions, this should come secondary to doing well at your internship. because that could turn into a full time position later.

[smoky quest]

That's fair! Everyone can decide where they interview.
In terms of leetcode, it's the smallest way to package a question without having to generate a lot of context. While I am completely against the either-you-know-the-trick-or-you-dont, I do not see any problem with asking people to write some code.
From my experience asking random questions, people do mind the trick questions but won't mind the questions where the essence of a problem is distilled in a more succint way.

On the other side unfortunately, there is also a non negligible number of applicants who don't have time for spending one afternoon on a fake project (or would accuse you to secretly use it in your product). But it also tends to be an algorithm wrapped into a HTTP api anyway

[near ocean]

It takes 5-30min to do a leetcode, depending on difficulty, surely you can do one every day, whether at work or not

[near remnant]

I've made many projects but never really did any leetcode problems and even tho I got an internship thanks to my projects, I feel like 'I don't know enough' because I'm not doing leetcode.
I think it might be just a problem with my confidence, the imposter syndrome is high with me sadly.

[near ocean]

given that its part of the job description to conduct interviews for the engineers at the company im applying to, i would say that asking random algo-trick questions to be irrelevant, disrespectful to me as an applicant and a lazy way to get out of doing their jobs
if you want to test my ability then come up with a series of problems closer to the problems you deal with at work everyday (where I may or may not have to use DSA) and give me those

[smoky quest]

yep, I am completely against asking questions that are about knowing a trick. There is no learning from there.
But I want to convey that leetcode questions are not only questions about knowing a trick

[gritty rivet]

Leetcode is mostly useful for cramming for the technical interviews that ask you to solve leetcode problems. And while you need to practice solving them for yourself, I often see it recommended to focus more in studying lots of answers to learn the patterns more efficiently.

[near remnant]

Yeah, I think I'll just focus on the internship

[hearty island]

i can't stand leetcode

[near ocean]

Again, you dont have to do one or the other, you can do both

lets say you have a candidate pass all interviews and you've decided to extend an offer
your hr guy mentioned a salary range for the role before the candidate decided to schedule the first interview
the candidate now tries to negotiate for the upper limit in that salary range, would you give it to them or rescind the offer and go for another candidate

[vapid jay]

depends how much you want them I'd say ! Are their skills (technical or social) much better than other candidates ?

[near ocean]

I would assume so, if they passed all the interviews and have had an offer extended to them that they performed better than everyone else in most, if not all, categories

[vapid jay]

ok then sure, why not offer them the top of the range, good people cost more

[frank thistle]

If they're solid why not pay them the most you can?

[near ocean]

it costs money you might be able to save if they take the job at whatever amount you offer

[frank thistle]

Sure that's fair if budgets are tight try make an offer and see what they say. On the flip side of it making a generous offer while setting expectations that this is a high performing team and you're expected to contribute usually makes for loyal team members imo

[near ocean]

so dumping a negotiating first candidate for the second/third best is unrealistic, right? (assuming the negotiations are within reason)

[frank thistle]

I would say so... Also do you know the second or third candidate won't negotiate as well?

[near ocean]

fair point, i kind of assumed second/third best would just take it as its better than nothing

[smoky quest]

how are they able to justify it?

[near ocean]

They were selected for an offer?

[smoky quest]

Expectations were set and they were ok with it. Changing the deal is a sign of bad faith so I would push back on them on that part and see how they react

In the overall context, I would have no qualms rejecting a great engineer who is an asshole. Whether they are toxic or not trustworthy, it just brings more problems than they are worth.

I would also look at how they fit within the range. If you already put them in the top of the range today, then how are you going to be able to retain them at the next performance review without promoting them to the next range?

[near ocean]

the candidate had an expectation that they would be able to nail the top limit for the job, otherwise they might not have taken the interview
if youre offering a salary range and your top prospect asks for the top limit in the range, would you fault them?

[smoky quest]

This goes back to the expectations set at the beginning

If they did set the expectations with the recruiters they would get the top of the range, then you should be ready to handle it

[pastel thunder]

does a post doc researcher have similar status to a student

[near ocean]

its the recruiter that sets the expectation, the candidate cant just guess at the salary range

[honest pivot]

Surely it depends where their abilities are in relation to what you're asking for. The facts that someone has an offer and that they want to ask for more are not, of themselves, enough information to decide whether their ask is justified.

[near ocean]

its either posted with the job ad or the recruiter tells them

[honest pivot]

No, postdoc is a real job

[pastel thunder]

similar to professor, can i say

[smoky quest]

The recruiter did set the expectations about the range, right?

[near ocean]

so what kind of information should i include, surely if they passed all the interview stages then they meet your expectations and so if they ask for the upper range for what youre offering whats keeping you from saying no

[pastel thunder]

my motive is an LOR so, what is the worth?

[honest pivot]

I wouldn't say that, no. Unless you mean similar in the sense that they are both occupations.

[smoky quest]

• Lower side of the range - just came into that role and getting the hang of it
• Middle of the range - operate at that level and is comfortable with it
• Upper side of the range - gearing up for promotion

[honest pivot]

Anyone you hire is going to pass all your interview stages. Like I don't see how that's a data point either

[honest pivot]

I can't parse this sentence. What are you asking about?

[pastel thunder]

i am aiming for mscs, will LOR from post doc researcher be positive addition, or a filler.
considering top schools

[near ocean]

yea well thats my second question, why a salary range and not a single figure job ad

[honest pivot]

Sorry, it sounds like you don't have time to write a complete question. There's no rush

[pastel thunder]

[honest pivot]

If I saw a single figure job ad, I would assume there's a range behind it and the figure is an estimate. Surely you have some idea of how prepared this person is to fill the role, and not just a yes/no answer?

[pastel thunder]

ok so, if I want to persue MS in Computer science and in my application I need 3 LOR, if 1 LOR is from a Post Doc researcher, will it play a role of strong LOR or will it just be filler??

[honest pivot]

Even some professors write useless letters. Is the postdoc famous? If not, don't bother.

[pastel thunder]

ok got it

not famous at all lmao, noob too, but univ was good.....i think i will just use it as research internship

[honest pivot]

Having been a postdoc at a famous university, I can tell you nobody cares

[chrome cedar]

What would you guys recommend doing for a non-degree job seeker? Any specific Python related certs or the like that can boost my chances?

I looked through the Python developer roadmap from here: https://roadmap.sh/python
And can say with confidence that I know 99% of the stuff involved there, having gone through but not completed a CS degree that involved C++
I know all about OOP and everything on that roadmap except for actual experience with Pyramid, Tornado, Sanic, pytest, doctest, nose, or unittest / pyUnit
I even have a full time job right now at Cigna where I developed a bunch of automation, backend, and frontend tools
I just can't seem to land a job elsewhere that's primarily for Python

[smoky quest]

What's your assessment of the reasons?

Do you get call backs? Have issues with the interviews? something else?

[chrome cedar]

This is how I'd say things go
50% of applications lead to no responses
35% lead to an interview with a recruiter or a first round interview with a manager / engineers
15% lead to 2nd or 3rd round interviews

The only critique I get from any of those points in the interview process is "We are looking for someone with a bit more experience", eve when when applying to any job that asks for 0 to 4 years of experience, where I have 4 years of it
I feel pretty confident in my abilities in interviews, even technical ones where I'm asked to write code in front of a person and talk out loud about what I'm doing
I had this one interview for a senior level position, and the technical interviewer made me program a tic-tac-toe game from scratch. I can attach the PDF instructions I was provided if need be
The general gist I got was that I was doing extremely, and that most people they interviewed didn't even make it to the last step, which was to add full logic to the AI opponent, whereas I had 10 minutes left and they said there wouldn't be enough time anyways.
But then just as that interview ended, the interviewer seemed rushed to leave, and I never heard back. I messaged them a week later to discuss it, and ask if they had any critiques for me, but no response.

[smoky quest]

Can you post your anonymized resume?

[chrome cedar]

Sure give me a bit to anonymize it

[inner wren]

Hey @chrome cedar!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.docx). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[chrome cedar]

is there a format I should post of it since docs and pdf are not allowed?

[gilded valley]

take a screenshot of the PDF/docx

[gilded valley]

4 years experience does not warrant 3 pages

[chrome cedar]

I put in any relevant projects that would showcase my skills and experience, including work and personal projects
Not sure how else to convey that kind of information, like how work projects are only hosted on an internal gitbub so the source code isn't public

If I'm not programming during work hours on work projects then I'm programming on my free time on personal projects

[true harness]

it should be 1 page

[chrome cedar]

That'd be great but I'm not sure that's the most glaring issue I have
I can shorten it down by not listing out my projects, and combining the experience sections for that junior and senior positions (since the original company, Express Scripts, was bought by Cigna)

[delicate bane]

for those percentages, how many total applications would you say you had? like a rough estimate is fine

[chrome cedar]

In total for the past 6 months I'd say about 50, and the past year maybe about 80
I try to apply to things that work for me (python dev, fully remote, same or better salary than I'm currently making)

[cerulean delta]

Strictly python related or any discussion is fine ? I need advise related to something other than python

[true harness]

your education should be at the top

[delicate bane]

this advice is more for students/recent grads -- at least thats what the career center people at my school say

[true harness]

huh, interesting. i am a student, so maybe that's why i heard thaat?

[delicate bane]

yeah it apparently signals to employers that youre a student/recent grad

[delicate bane]

i would wait for recursive's or someone more senior's assessment since they would have seen more resumes/know what to look for. however, im wondering if maybe for certain positions, theyre looking for certain skills/languages other than python as well

[smoky quest]

that's because students and early career don't have much in the way of professional experience

[delicate bane]

it be true

[smoky quest]

Random notes:

• As mentioned by others, it's too long. It should fit in one page
• It's great for your experience to attach direct outcome of your work!
• Overall, just from your experience (excluding the projects as I haven't read them), you would strike me more as a mid-level rather than senior because I don't see the larger projects in scope that you handled. All the examples make it look like you did a lot of one off tasks.
• You seem focused on automation. Have you explored SRE and build and release jobs as well?
• Your projects are interesting but I would make them fit in one page
• Your skills need to be trimmed or split. But as is, it just look like an unreadable giant block of various items

[near ocean]

i have a question about quantifying the impact my work has on the target consumer, which is another dept, but im struggling to phrase it lmao

we dont have metrics at work for the projects i work on and it's hard to implement some of them
like, i know my work has made operations (the other dept) faster in processing shit, things dont take literal weeks nowadays but how would I put that into numbers

[smoky quest]

In general it's either the direct metric (ie. the Key Result), or a metric at the service of that direct metric (ie. automating some process of team B has enabled them to serve 2x more customers )

[old sluice]

quick question, how important is your picture in a CV? I've heard conflicting opinions about it

[graceful mason]

a picture of yourself? it's a waste of space - use your github profile

[near ocean]

it depends on your region and the culture where youre applying to

i wouldnt ever think of adding my picture on my CV but i've heard that its standard practice in Germany (example)

[chrome cedar]

Thank you for the pointers! Guess I'll definitely be slimming down my resume
The funny part is that I am applying for mid/associate level positions, the thing that confuses people is that my current position is senior

I have been looking at SRE and DevOps, definitely fun and interesting, just need to find positions that work for me

Also is there a good guide on making your own site (like a github.io thing) to list out your experience / projects?

[rare tide]

hi, i'm new here, i have some questions about python jobs, i'm searching experience as freelancer as a real job, but its so hard, nobody give you a chance, i'm in that way at least 6 months, its normal ??

[smoky quest]

none that I would know. That would also be at the bottom of my priorities. Most people will look at are your resume and decide in 30-45s. At most, they may click on some links to github/gitlab to see your code

[smoky quest]

It can be pretty competitive from what I heard. But I haven't done it myself, so take it with a grain of salt

[fleet stream]

dm me for gfg and coding ninjas coures

[chrome cedar]

I don't think self-promotion / soliciting is allowed here

[chrome cedar]

So far I've decreased the size down to 1.25 pages.

1. Removed any miscellaneous/unrelated projects
2. lumped my 4 years of experience into one job listing (the job is the same, only difference is my old position was at one company that got bought by my current workplace)
3. reworded things to take up less space
   Now I'm stuck on how to fit in my skills / tools / languages within that page limit. Tempted to completely remove my internship from 2016 to make space too

[true harness]

you don't need to put every skill and every tool for every application. put some on/take some off that are/aren't relevant to the one you're applying to. that should save more space

[spiral bloom]

I've been a junior engineer at this start-up company for almost a year. First job out of my bootcamp and I just recently got put on a project with our UK team in April. I'm the only u.s person on this team and got put on a task that involves taking data > cleaning it > parsing it in a dataclass structure and figuring out how to load it to graphql. I was able to figure out how to load it in graphql but then I got asked to format the data differently since it's going to be loaded on react and now none of the data is loading to graphql.

I don't know I'm just frustrated and there's no senior engineer I can go to with questions and seems like everyone else is busy doing their own thing. Kinda paranoid about letting everyone down and potentially losing the job so not sure where to go from here. I feel like as a junior engineer I should have some form of mentorship which I feel like I'm not getting. I'm also on contract, and being successful on this project determines if I get brought on full-time.

[buoyant seal]

No one is obligated to teach you, except you :) especially in a startup, I was there too

[spiral bloom]

Yeah but if I have trouble it would be great if someone senior level try to mentor me, no? So I don't delay anyone. Idk I'm starting to feel like maybe I'm not good at this job. Which sucks cuz I invested into a bootcamp

[buoyant seal]

Kind of strange description of what u a doing

Taking data, cleansing, parsing ok

Graphql as far as I know just alternative to REST API exposure format.
You can give away to React in Rest way or graphql, it is just outputting different standards

[spiral bloom]

Yeahh that's what I was thinking I was suggesting returning the data in the specified hierarchy as a json to React

[buoyant seal]

Using senior time in startup is already delaying someone. Startups aren't generous enough to afford it. Even in big companies taking senior time is entirely volunteering procedure if they wish to mentor
Usually the only approved time to use from others for code reviews

[spiral bloom]

Im just scared about my growth. I guess this current task has me feeling defeated

[buoyant seal]

Output can be in rest or graphql
And it can be in JSON at same time

It sounds quite undefined to me what u a trying to do yet

[buoyant seal]

Anyway, if u wish to be successful in a startup, u just need to learn fast on your own.

[buoyant seal]

A u web scraping for data extraction?

[spiral bloom]

Scraping data from csvs, creating a hierarchy structure based on business requirements using dataclasses, using strawberry with fastapi and graphql and react frontend.

Basically creating an app off a business process in excel

[buoyant seal]

Do u write unit tests?

[spiral bloom]

Not something I have much practice with. I'm a junior data engineer

[buoyant seal]

Consider it is the first direction to improve yourself then.
Read the book, get used to pytest(read its docs)

Read TDD Kent Beck book in addition

[brazen trail]

there's no one on your team that is familiar with the tech and libraries you are using that you can ping?

[spiral bloom]

I also feel like im not learning tools for my role and learning things like graphql which ildoesnt seem like a d.e tool

And not really, they just wanted to learn new tools

[spiral bloom]

Soo how would I use unit testing to get better?

[peak halo]

if you know that you have to write unit tests, it requires you to be more exacting in how you design things. what are the inputs for a function, and what do they mean? what is the output, and what does it mean?

[buoyant seal]

1. Unit testing shortens time u use to check that each application part works correctly. Shortens check time in infinity times
2. unit testing allows within seconds to check that everything is still correct, which allows to refactorize/improve your code without problems at any time
3. testing just speeds up development by magnitude

As for how, read the books
Short story that we check correct outputs for correct inputs in different code parts

[brazen trail]

yeah just to repeat... it changes how you think about and write code... for the better

[peak halo]

testing just speeds up development by magnitude
without qualifying how it speeds up development, it straightforwardly slows down development, because it's extra work.

I think it's more accurate to say that even if unit testing requires additional work upfront, it makes it easier to refactor fearlessly in the future.

[brazen trail]

yeah, because code that is easy to test is easy to work on

[buoyant seal]

According to Kent Beck, test driven development is twice faster than regular one.

I think it is because time wasted on tests is shorter than time wasted on carefully debugging code.
Plus each change is small enough to debug/jump to next change easier, which removes needs for long debugging
Once the test is written, we don't need usually to debug this part of application later
And if we do, tests show localized point of problem to debug, which speeds up debugging by magnitude

[delicate bane]

even with a mentor, they might not be 100% familiar with your specific problem that you might have. they might point you to certain resources or be someone you can check your assumptions against, but, at least in my situation as well, the onus is on you

i know its a lot to expect from a junior position, but i believe a lot of it is mentality too

[delicate bane]

i like this image a lot

[spiral bloom]

Yeah I guess. But I feel like we could've done the project much more easily if we didn't have to use this graphql stuff. We could've just loaded data with python, clean/make transformations > send it through a rest API to react in a json

[delicate bane]

yeah backtracking can be frustrating

i def feel that

[buoyant seal]

U could have, and it makes sense in your shoes to have it because rest is less hussle
Graphql is having its own advantages though

[mortal wedge]

I always recommend people put a skills section at the top, because some Applicant Tracking Systems actually do their keyword weighting more strongly at the beginning of a resume for some reason.

[delicate bane]

yeah at least they have some exp working with graphQL now

[mortal wedge]

Since getting a resume through is a three tiered process at most companies. First you're processed by their ATS, then you're processed by an HR or non-technical person, then you have to pass muster by someone who actually knows their stuff.

[buoyant seal]

Giggles, or does not
Startups can have especially fucked up tech interviews
Big companies aren't excluded too though

[mortal wedge]

They can, yeah.

[delicate bane]

DW, you mention pytest - have you tried property-based testing (hypothesis library)? i think im in love with it lol

[mortal wedge]

It is also often a less regulated/formal process at startups. They may not have ATS, they may not have HR people, etc.

[delicate bane]

yeah it might just go straight to the hiring manager

[mortal wedge]

I'm a project lead and thankfully by the time resumes get to me I only have like 4 or so to go over so I can actually go and click on all the links, really understand the background, etc.

[buoyant seal]

Nope. I haven't. So far I don't like other testing frameworks if I can't enable my IDE debug to them
(Robot framework is awful, change my mind)

[delicate bane]

thats really good and streamlined. nice

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, it's nice. If I had to process multiple resumes a day I'd probably start looking for reasons to throw any out, even if it's something minor/silly.

[delicate bane]

we can talk about property-based testing later when im not on mobile and not in this channel so we dont get OoT

[mortal wedge]

Like, it didn't disqualify them, but it did lower their standing against other applicants when one person had links to a site that was down

[chrome cedar]

Been clearing those out too but that section takes out the least amount of space

[delicate bane]

makes sense

[mortal wedge]

Definitely try to get it down to one page. Two if you're a titan in the industry and there's just so much high value stuff that getting it down to one is impossible.

Applying for a position in academia may be different, I don't really know the rules/practices for CVs

[chrome cedar]

Oh I forgot to mention, I was just recently not picked for an internal position on a different team that works on thing I'd actually like to be involved in, going to message that teams manager to ask for any pointers or things that they would've wanted to see from me to improve my chances in other job applications

[buoyant seal]

Checking wiki
https://hypothesis.readthedocs.io/en/latest/quickstart.html
Hypothesis
Is just pytest parameterization with values from simple values factories.

1. we can write test factories on our own, which is much more flexible and reusable across tests, or just using random generator/ factory libraries
2. having parameterization of multiple input values I don't control, makes me worried for test performance at least, in python it is really a problem
3. often I wish to have explicit input, not auto generated. Tests must be predictable and rerunable to get same result. Plus it is important for more clear documentation (tests are documentation)

[mortal wedge]

Certainly doesn't hurt to follow up. IT can be educational and it shows a level of interest other people may not show, which could help you in future apps

[chrome cedar]

Exactly, and in this case I still have to work with that team, and we meet twice a week, so I don't think they're going to flat out ignore me
And the manager of that team is very nice so I doubt she won't respond

[chrome cedar]

Finally cut the resume down to a single page

[buoyant seal]

S stands for Success

[sand summit]

Yo i am looking for a app development team to join

[exotic hound]

hi i want to use this summer to prep for interviews and really get good at data structure and algorithms for software engineering positions

here are the resources i have at my disposal:

• cracking the coding interview book
• leetcode
• educative.ok grokking the coding interview: patterns for coding questions

i have a general idea of all the data structures and i can code very basic, but i def want to ramp up. is there a certain schedule or format i should follow. like how do i utalize my resources.
should i jsut do 2 leetcode problems a day and review 2, and do 2 new ones

or do problems around one data structure and move to the next data structure

or do problems based on patterns regardless of the data structure

i’m jsut confused and i wish there was like a course or like a format i could follow to master this? idk if i’m making sense but i’d greatly appreciate anyones help and input !!

[buoyant seal]

I received initial approval from other company about incoming offer, they just seek the project to have me in. And they ask me about deadlines.
I think if it is appropriate to answer that I go through multiple parallel interviews, and one of them already was finished to receiving an offer, and therefore I have certain at least soft deadlines? 🤔
And though I would prefer to choose their company over the current other offer, it could change depending on other passed interviews?

Not sure with how much honesty to answer the question is appropriate in this situation

Technically the company is outsourcing one, and therefore they should understand this stuff. I already wrote enough words of praising them, writing that I would choose them over alternative at current point of time. I don't have to show enthusiasm directly to their projects, since they don't have them, as it is not a product company.

[spare nymph]

I'm not sure where you're from or what the work culture is like there, but personally I'd never tell one that I "prefer" them but rather just mention the deadline

[buoyant seal]

i said it metaphorically, it is not said in this way 🤔

Well, I think you are right nevertheless, I should just cut the words about other interviews and companies
and not having mentioned the reason for deadlines i have

[spare nymph]

I like to keep the "ball in my court" so to speak, cause two competing offers can potentially drive up how much you're offered

[buoyant seal]

they should be technically equal in money offers
haven't received final numbers from second company though, but it should be certainly the minimal amount I voiced i wish during interview

[buoyant seal]

it can potentially drive up, but I also don't wish to risk the good offers

besides the money, it is quite important for me to choose company with best stuff for continued growth (which depends on which types of projects and tech stacks they have)

I'll just answer them then
I plan to make decision regarding offer not early than N june, and i have a soft deadline on M jule, which I think is not important enough and can be missed.

[vapid jay]

who knows anything about UGG?

[dense mesa]

Would be helpful if there was more context

[sage relic]

Hey guys, I have just started learning Python and I'm on Tuples I guess. My main field for further my career is Machine Learning and AI. I'm just confused that when should I start learning DSA? I mean it's obvious that my python fundamentals should be very strong? But can someone specify till which topic I should learn Python so as to generate a proper prerequisite for DSA? It would be very helpful if someone answer my query. Thanks!!

[dense mesa]

You can start learning DS&A in parallel with python. If you want to work in ML, you will very very likely require a degree in CS/maths/similar STEM field

[sage relic]

But I don't have any prior experience in programming. I learnt some basics of C only few months back. I mean If i start learning in parallel, will it be fine?

[shy field]

hey guys

can someone explain to me what IR35 legislation is

[near ocean]

i dont think you should think of your python fundamentals as very strong if youre still on tuples, unless im completely misreading that sentence

[fallow lynx]

hi, someone could tell me about the libraries for building Blockchain (example: hashlib)

[near ocean]

IR35 is about the benefits you get as a professional as well as the taxes you and your contracting company has to pay
IANAL but inside IR35 you are considered an employee of the company with full benefits, the company has to pay NIC and other taxes

[shy field]

so if am outside IR35 am gonna pay taxes right?

[near ocean]

youre gonna pay taxes regardless, but i think you're going to file them yourself, as self-employed instead of your company

[shy field]

does these taxes apply every time i get paid or in the end after I finish the contract

[near ocean]

no idea, you should ask a taxes expert

[shy field]

lol ok thanks

[sage relic]

That's what I'm saying that my python fundamentals are not strong right now. So when should I start DSA? I mean I'll still learn some more concepts of Python (Till file io or object oriented programming) what do you say?

[near ocean]

oh, yea i misread,
technically you dont need python to do DSA, and you really dont need much python to implement most of them, just your basic list and dict operations

[sage relic]

Ok, so in programming I know Python till Tuples and C (only few basics till Arrays) and my focus is on ML. So for ML, Python is a must but i know only python won't be effective for me to get a job in a company so I would have to learn some more programming languages also and DSA is a main here thing here. So how should I implemet in Dsa? Should i learn any other programming language? And also I'm learning Web development and I my CSS is about to complete and after I'll start learning JavaScript.

[near ocean]

you should pick one area of focus and stick with it, go for ML, learn more python, some C is ok because most of the ML stuff is implemented in C anyway and pick up SQL
You dont need any lang skills to do DSA, you could start right now

[sage relic]

Alright. So i can do DSA and Python both in a parallel way, that's what you want to say right?

And should I learn more concepts of C also?

[near ocean]

yes, you could work on DSA using pseudocode until you get Python up to a level where you can comfortably implement the concepts you learned for DSA

[dense mesa]

That's what we've been saying above ^^

[sage relic]

Alright. Thanks for your help

[near ocean]

the point of DSA is to learn the concepts, not a specific implementation of them

[sage relic]

Yeah man you were right, thanks btw

[near ocean]

youre never going to have to write your own binarysearch of heap implementation, but knowing what they do and how is important

[sage relic]

But I should be practicing some problems also along with that. As I'm still a beginner so I won't be able to implement my Dsa knowledge because I don't know all the concepts of any language (in my case it's Python) and by learning through pseudocode , will it be very effective for me? Because i won't be able to solve any coding problem of Dsa

[near ocean]

learning the basic structures in python and their operations wont take that long

[sage relic]

Alright. I'll start doing that

There are some concepts which I'm yet to complete like Dictionary, Loops, Functions, Recursion, File Io, object oriented, etc

Use of External libraries also

[near remnant]

Damn, waiting for the phone call from the HR is just pain in the arse

[honest pivot]

I hate phone calls. I'm fine with zoom. I think there's something weird about talking to someone without seeing their face

[near remnant]

Im just waiting for the call for setting an interview date up

They told me the guy will call me before Friday, oh well.. 🤣 He must be busy

[near ocean]

I also dislike voice only calls, i never seem to be able to make out people's names, it all sounds like a blur and i cant see their lips to help

[honest pivot]

Plus it's super awkward to have to say things like "uh huh", "yeah" all the time when in a normal conversation you would just nod your head to indicate you heard and understood something

[near ocean]

lmao yea i just had that experience today
i tried "uh huh"ing, and the lady kept stopping thinking i was gonna say more
then i stopped "uh huh"ing and she asked if i was still on the line! cant win with phone calls

im just trynna show engagement, goddamn

[honest pivot]

I think this is exacerbated by modern noise-reduction technology. It's listening for continuous speech to identify as foreground sound, so if you say something really short, it gets cut off and makes the other person wonder if you had something more to say.

[chrome cedar]

So I spoke with that manager today, and they actually said that I was their 2nd pick out of the 4 candidates
They chose someone else, not because the other person was more qualified, but because:

1. I already work with their team while the other candidate is in a totally different team
2. My director didn't want to fully let me go (because I'm one of 3 people who can work with some old af app we have)
   So they ended up getting that other candidate, and compromising with my director: 25% of my time will be used for that other team to do the tasks that I'm basically already doing for them, and I'd basically be their first pick when another position opens up (which will most likely be next year when they get their yearly budget)
   That's what one of my co-workers did, where he spent 25% of his time doing work for that team before getting moved to that team completely

[near remnant]

Ive got referred to a job by the team leader dev. He told me that even the CEO knows about me. Its an internship. They said they will call me this week to talk about contract and stuff. Its Thursday and still nothing... Should I just give up on this? They even told me to install a linux OS on my pc so I can start 😂

[dense mesa]

From what you've mentioned, I would personally completely ignore anyone offering "internships" at this point, and only apply/consider FT roles

If you keep getting referred/contacted for opportunities, that's great, but make sure they're not bleeding you dry under the illusion that you're extremely desirable for them

[near remnant]

Yeah mate, its the same position that we've been talking about. On the other hand, I had 3 different interviews for full time junior positions, so.. I try to maximize my chances.

I just graduated a week ago and I feel so weird bcus I have so much free time 🤣

[delicate bane]

dang it was good that you asked and found out the actual reality, since it seems your goal is really obtainable now

[mortal wedge]

Thanks for the update! Sounds like you're a rockstar and a shoe-in for the next opening. That's exciting!

[smoky quest]

yeah, nice update!

One caveat though, if your director cannot let you go now, why would make them able to let you go next time?
But since it was done before, it sounds like they have that process in place somewhat

[chrome cedar]

The stuff that my co-workers and I work on that only us 3 know how to work with is in the process of being decommissioned entirely and is supposed to be finished up by mid 2023. Even if it isn't complete by then, most of it should be taken offline so they won't need as much dedicated support staff
My director is normally a chill guy, but knowing upper management that kind of decision wasn't his

If I'm still in this position and they try to pigeon-hole me I'd threaten to quit lol

[heavy karma]

who should i become with a python skills?

[dense mesa]

https://roadmap.sh/python

[near remnant]

Sheesh, got invited to another interview, for the final round.. It will be hard to decide which company to choose in the end.

First world problems 🤣

[vapid jay]

can you guys do a github review for me, does my apps look horrible?

[spare wigeon]

getting a google foobar be like

[hearty island]

wtf

yes totally i'll just hand you my SSN

[near remnant]

Bruh

[hearty island]

disgusting

[analog sun]

They probably need it for a background check, especially if they do work with the military

[hearty island]

idk chief, glassdoor reviews are very not promising

[analog sun]

Then I'd nope right over it

[chrome cedar]

Glassdoor also isn't very reliable, anyone with an account can post a review of a workplace without any proof tat they actually worked there

[dense mesa]

It can be alright in my experience

[stuck goblet]

Can anyone suggest any good courses or certifications for machine learning within python?

[gritty rivet]

#data-science-and-ml might be a better place to ask

[gritty rivet]

also, ML isn't my field at all but from a career perspective I would say certifications probably aren't that highly valued. You'll want to focus on building strong projects, and get an advanced degree if at all possible

[pulsar drum]

I accidentally applied to a position that isn't local to me. I didn't realise I made that mistake until they got back to me asking to schedule a meeting. Should I just say I'm no longer interested? Or should I explain my mistake in hopes they may have a local position instead?

[pseudo bone]

Estimate the number of mechanical weighing scales in operation in the Czech Republic. Nobody knows the exact number, but try to estimate it as closely as possible. Explain your reasoning.
i was asked this question a mail from HR from one of the companies i applied for#
can someone help ?

[near remnant]

i stopped coding / working on my project(s) since I started interviewing, it was 1,5 weeks ago and I already feel "rusty"

[gritty rivet]

If you're at all interested in the job otherwise, I would do the latter. More than likely they won't have a local position right now but what's the harm in asking?

[pulsar drum]

Yeah I am interested cause it's one of the few I've managed to find that actually mentions Python in some capacity

[vale stream]

Is there anything like this that actually has a tree of topics that I can look into for making cs projects?

[pulsar drum]

They're primarily based where I lived so I guess confirmation bias kicked in and I applied without reading carefully. Or maybe I also trusted in my job search filters too much.

[vale stream]

Ooh an ML one would be cool. Or a general cs one

[pulsar drum]

I think the bigger question weighing over me is whether I would actually be willing to relocate or not. I'm unsure if I can handle the stress of both moving and starting a job.

[delicate bane]

yeah i have a related question - if you need to relocate for work, would it be a good idea to have a week or 2 from when you move to when you start as a "buffer period". does that make sense?

[dense mesa]

This is a common "size the market" consulting question, I'd recommend looking at those

[delicate bane]

you see this more in product interviews, correct? or did i misremember

[dense mesa]

Yeah this could reasonably come up in a PM Interview

[delicate bane]

[gritty rivet]

totally reasonable

[dense mesa]

It shows how good you are at quickly coming up with some extremely rough calculations and sizing a market

[delicate bane]

[pseudo bone]

ok thnx!

[dense mesa]

@pseudo bone if I had to answer this (in a very basic structure):

Firstly, estimate the total number of people in Czech Republic (say 1-5 mil I have no idea)

Split the existence of scales into 5-8 buckets, such as regular users, restaurants, delis, bakeries, etc

For each bucket, assign a very rough population based on a percentage of the overall population (eg 50% of all regular people have one, restaurants may be like 20% of the population)

Write all the assumptions and percentages down, then calculate

https://igotanoffer.com/blogs/mckinsey-case-interview-blog/market-sizing-questions

If you get this question in a software Interview then it's completely out of place. Anything for PM, tech consulting etc is fairly expected

[peak halo]

@low snow I'm going to assume you posted that in good faith, but I don't like where the discussion was potentially going.

[delicate bane]

i cant say ive ever seen opportunities like this one before...

[low snow]

My friend actually was in a similar one to this, though it was an intern, but it was paid full benefits with promise of joining full time after finishing if they saw potential

She got the full time offer after the internship

[low snow]

Got it, I was just posting it since I thought it was funny, now that I think back about it it wasn't even funny either mb

[vapid jay]

Yo guys, I was just wondering which job is more in demand, web development or desktop app development

[low snow]

Web for sure

[delicate bane]

im talking specifically about the re-entry portion of this posting. ive seen plenty of apprenticeships and the like

[buoyant seal]

Aren't they already topics for CSS projects

[low snow]

Is it normal the HR to mess up the spelling like this? lol

[vale stream]

cs=computer science not css sorry i was unclear

[buoyant seal]

Misspelled
I mean
Aren't they already CS topics

[dense mesa]

Yes

[honest pivot]

People misspell things all the time when they type fast. I don't even mind the occasional misspellings in a CV

[near ocean]

HR does as HR is

[dense mesa]

For banking/consulting/competitive roles, they close like September/October of that year.

Any London/big tech software roles are typically good to apply for by Jan/Feb to make sure you get within cycle

Most other stuff you either wanna do by around march/April/Easter, or you're stuck applying with the "don't do any applications til graduation" group of students, where it gets much more competitive for less roles

[craggy hamlet]

How did people learn how to document code properly for a future job? I am a beginner in this space.

[near ocean]

two ways really:

• follow established convention at company/team you join, team conventions are more important than language conventions
• if there is no convention, start writing the documentation the way you feel most appropriate, you'll tweak it with time and/or agree to a convention with your team, in which case you follow the point above

[near ocean]

if you want to adopt other styles for documenting code, there's 3 big ones,

• Google
• numpy
• reST
  https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3898572/what-are-the-most-common-python-docstring-formats

not really career related tbh, you could ask in, uh, #python-discussion

[craggy hamlet]

Awesome thankyou 😊 and sounds good might ask these kinds of questions there 👍

[desert stag]

Holy cow boys and girls I got my first real interview coming up can someone hit me with some resources that might help me prepare? Never done a tech interview before 😅

[dense mesa]

Congratulations! Practice as much as you can: online recordings and with family members

[desert stag]

is there any youtube videos I can watch that give good tips you could recommend?

[dense mesa]

Idk of any specific videos or channels, just search "tech interview preparation" and see what's out there

Most important is to practice doing typical questions in front of your recorded webcam, or in front of people. Get the interviewing nerves out the way

[desert stag]

This is good advice

I have someone I should be practicing with. I will give it a try after I finish all my preparations for the interview. I just found out I passed the first round today.

[coarse crag]

good luck!

[desert stag]

Thank you for your support. 🤠

[coarse crag]

you're welcome

[desert stag]

do you have any advice as well?

[coarse crag]

hahahah unfortunately no, because i just started learning python recently sorry

[desert stag]

let me know if you have questions I can help you

[coarse crag]

Oh.. sure, thank you so much 🙏

[rotund river]

Im like chess

[gritty rivet]

How to prep depends entirely on what you know about the company, the role, and their plan for the interview. Is this live coding, technical interview, behavioral interview? Don't be afraid to ask them for an agenda.

For any specific topic that's relevant, you can google ideas for questions they might ask. To give a super general example, if you search for "python job interview questions" you see lots of lists of possible questions.

For live coding, practice on sites like LeetCode and HackerRank.

mock interviews are a good way to gain confidence

[desert stag]

I believe that the first interview is a culture fit and to determine what kind of developer I am. They will ask some questions about my projects and debugging questions. They will also ask me questions about the company and what I think about their products and stuff

there might be a technical interview later though I am not ruling it out

[gritty rivet]

So then you have a pretty good idea of what to expect... if they said they're going to ask you about debugging, I just did some googling and found this: https://app.testgorilla.com/preview/36411

with interviewing like so much else, it's all about practice

[desert stag]

I appreciate all your advice and I will check it out

[desert stag]

I wish I knew about this a few months ago lol its a interesting site

[hollow nacelle]

I’m just finishing my sophomore year of high school in the US. I’ve been programming in python and c++ for a few months. I was just wondering if it was possible to get a tech job after high school and if so what can I do to prepare for that. This is obviously not my primary option after high school but I just want to know if this is an option. Possibly for a backup to my backup

[azure mountain]

I've rarely seen programming jobs specifically that do not require a Bachelor's degree. That said it's probably not impossible... difficult but not impossible to find work. If I were trying to land a job in programming without a degree I would make sure I have an impressive portfolio of work. I'd spend a lot of time building out my git hub repos to share as evidence for programming skills. Nothing is stopping you from searching indeed or other sites for what jobs are out there specific to the type of programming you want to do and seeing what min requirements look like.

Now you can apply to jobs even if they have a bachelor's or higher requirement but you should put together a compelling cover letter addressing why you are applying and work that you have done that would make highing managers understand you are skilled.

[dense mesa]

A fair amount of people here would recommend some form of higher education. This may not be the best path for you, but it is worth considering for a number of reasons, such as opportunity cost of doing something else, the cost/benefit ratio of university, etc

[near ocean]

There's a pin from a member here that managed the self learning Django into a webdev role route

[hollow nacelle]

Ok so what I’m hearing is that it’s possible but not viable unless actively worked towards. I guess I’ll try to get into a college as plan A and build up my GitHub on the side. I guess it’d be better if I for a solid plan out a plan B and an emergency plan C that’s not getting an immediate tech job

My school provides opportunities for internships so I’ll look into that in my junior year

[azure mountain]

" it’s possible but not viable unless actively worked towards" most of life. College is no cake-walk. Either way you need to default to action and work hard.

[hollow nacelle]

I see. I’ll try to focus on college than since I feel like it’d be more beneficial for my future in the long run

[half kelp]

I don't have permission to write in any chat box how to avail this??

[dense mesa]

Try asking in #community-meta as this channel is for career discussion

[half kelp]

Thanks

[mighty rapids]

Does anyone think I'd be able to get an entry level python developer job? I don't have too much coding experience, but I have an MS in Cybersecurity

Interested in Python though, I took a couple of entry level courses and really enjoyed it

[blissful zenith]

With due time, yes keep on coding and studying its all about grinding it out. Do many courses study many frameworks and make 2-3 REALLY well thought out capstone projects

[gilded valley]

Build up your programming skills, then yes. The fact a cyber sec MSc didn't require a fair degree of programming is almost worrying

[mighty rapids]

Thanks! What frameworks would you recommend I learn? I feel like I have the basics down

[blissful zenith]

What are your interest?

[blissful zenith]

what are your interest web dev / data engineering data science/ there is so much you could do you could even write full cyber security apps

[mighty rapids]

I'm into web development, but not a huge fan of javascript. Would be pretty cool to learn how to build a webapp, but I don't really have a portfolio. Not sure what I should try to create lol

Idk if there's a market for that though, I've also been considering going the Linux Sysadmin route, but not sure if this is the right channel for sysadmin career advice

[blissful zenith]

you could create a full stack app in django with just python.. But Just learning how the framework itself interact with databases and how open source professionals have strucutre their code is a great experience in itself. look up some simple projects like taking data and displaying it in a table... or like a simple porject manager app

[mighty rapids]

Ok, thanks for the advice!

[near ocean]

Its against the rules to advertise, also you might wanna pay people in time and not "when you start making money" nobody knows when that will be

[lusty lance]

I haven't sent any of wm links

[near ocean]

Putting a site up isnt that hard, you could do it yourself

[lusty lance]

to things

We r teens who have hardly any experience its basically just me and I only know bits on python

[analog sun]

This seems like it goes against two of our rules

!rule 9 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[lusty lance]

hmm

[analog sun]

Thank you for understanding

[lusty lance]

deletedb

Know any place I can look for good coders or anything cause like I need to find people to code

[near ocean]

You can put an ad up on upwork or fiver

[analog sun]

I'm sure there are plenty on LinkedIn, Fiver, Upwork and other such sites dedicated to that type of stuff

[lusty lance]

Hmm

thank you mario and brad

[mortal wedge]

It's possible but unlikely and would take a ton of hustle. A company would be taking a big risk hiring someone on without a degree and in this day and age companies ask for college degrees for virtually everything.

[buoyant seal]

Some companies pay up to 10-20 thousands of euro reward for it. Lets just say it is a difficult task, if you are hiring someone

[lusty lance]

Ive found like 5 people

Who are down for no pay for like 2 months

[buoyant seal]

ergh, they are working for free?

[lusty lance]

For like 2 months

they also have a 1 month trial to prove themselves trust worthy as we will be granting them access to our company email and stuff for Wix

[buoyant seal]

well, we can easy to say they are juniors or less ranked ones if they agree to such conditions.

you sound like a company without reputation. Trusting to zero company like that sounds like a bad idea

[lusty lance]

they know a few programming languages which is all we need

Meh we are teenagers tryna make a company at a young age more of an experiment but if it works out then sure

[buoyant seal]

Giggles, I just must say it: What could possibly go wrong with it, right?

[lusty lance]

Money is also not a problem to us we are willing to pay

[buoyant seal]

Let's just say it sounds like a recipe for disaster in quality

with a chance of 99% or 99.9%? 🤔

[buoyant seal]

Do they write auto tests for their code?
Do they even use git?

I am not even asking all of the questions about quality, the questions above are minimal requirement for at least some just barely above shit quality

if the answer is no, you will soon encounter the point when the code will become unfixable shit, that can't be fixed or extended in functionality further

there will be quite soon a point, after which a human brain capacity is not able to comprehend all of the interconnected all kind of complexities written into the code out of bad architecture and lack of clean code

well, and development will stop at that point

giggles, the software is so easy to write.
not shitty software is surprisingly hard to learn to write.
and it takes a great dedication, higher education and self education and a lot of job experience to walk a path from former to later.

[cerulean grotto]

What would be the bare minimium to get a job as a django dev, I really want to get my first job in the area, I'm currently developing a website for a Tibia(mmorpg) fan-made server

Would making a functional website, an 'beautiful' enough?

[blissful zenith]

im also looking for sys admin channel as i could really use some mentoring with this, let me know if you find one

[blissful zenith]

understand the frame work make projects with it. hiring managers only care about your ability to code and learn(trouble shoot) , but you still need to know the basics. Find a project idea your passionate about and start small and turn it into a capstone project and deploy it

[vapid jay]

Hi, i need some advice. My lead is really difficult to communicate with because when I asked him specific questions about implementation and what tasks I am responsible for, they don’t answer me

so now, I have to assume that I’m responsible for everything and I do not have the details to the code that my code needs to integrate with

im a lvl 1 SWE with only 1 year of exp and I have to get this done in a week because it was literally dropped on my lap…

and i do not have much guidance (which is not a big deal but there are key details i need to know that impact the usefulness of the code i write…)

[blissful zenith]

i would politely bring this to the attention of his superior

[blissful zenith]

have yuo deliver this message will be key. Be humble respectful and their superior should be happy with your honesty

[smoky quest]

have you talked about it with your manager?

[smoky quest]

why do you need that many people?
Most startups will start with 1-3 people at most

[vapid jay]

not yet

[delicate bane]

what is enterprise software development like compared to...i guess regular software development

[smoky quest]

can you expand on the context?

[rancid epoch]

🧐

[delicate bane]

my friend was a salesforce developer who made salesforce apps. thats enterprise software development, right?

i understand this is the google definition:

satisfy the needs of an organization rather than individual users

but what does that actually mean in practice compared to i guess swd for products/consumer users

[peak halo]

I just heard the acronym "MAANG" for the first time. I guess it's meta apple amazon netflix google. but if you're going to do facebook -> meta, then you also need to do google -> alphabet. and you need to drop netflix, because it never should have been there.

MAAA.

[smoky quest]

that's b2c vs b2b.
b2b is slower and has more consideration and may require more heavy lifting

[delicate bane]

one of my favorite youtubers is pushing for "MANGA"; obv loves anime

[delicate bane]

oh man...does that means less fun as a developer

[delicate bane]

hmm hmm this is interesting. dunno if its accurate since its "from wikipedia"

i like how france is the comparison tho

[delicate bane]

did you guys know this was a thing? i didnt know this was a thing https://layoffs.fyi/

[smoky quest]

not really. Just different ways to look at things

[delicate bane]

[pure jackal]

What about for internship? What is the qualification needed for that?

[smoky quest]

Most interns are in school. Also on a side note, trying to skip on a college is the worst decision you can make

[peak halo]

https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-spot-a-beginner-programmer/answer/David-Foster-13?ch=15&oid=22944467&share=610ab0f7&srid=Uxy72&target_type=answer

What, no embed?

During interviews, ask this question, “Imagine you have been working on code for a week (40 hours) and because of system limitations you have not been able to perform any tests on the incomplete code. You feel it is done now and can proceed to test/fix. How many more hours would you expect to spend testing and fixing it before you might expect it to be high quality?”

Discuss.

[narrow owl]

I've been thinking a lot about that Google engineer that has been in the news recently. It made me think about what actually gets someone hired. Because that guy thought he created a sentient AI and didn't even conduct a Turing test. This is someone who specialized in AI and works at Google.

I can't believe a guy like that works at Google, one of the hardest companies to get hired at.

So what is it that actually gets people hired at companies? Is it really based on skill and experience? Because this example suggests that it's factors other than those. Connections? Aesthetic? Charisma?

Let me know your thoughts. And I'm sorry if this is slightly off topic.

[peak halo]

I don't think you can draw conclusions from that one guy. He was deliberately sensationalizing.

[smoky quest]

Remember that Google has literally tens of thousands of engineers. At that scale, you can't hire the top 1% because they need way more engineers than that.
From the news also, it sounds like that person had other issues as well

And regardless of your skill level, you can still be somewhat eccentric 😉

[narrow owl]

I mean, even after all of this, I'm shocked that management at Google didn't sack him

[smoky quest]

Sounds like a #software-architecture question? :p

[smoky quest]

We don't really know. It's not the type of things a company want to air publicly (there would also be some privacy issues at stake)

[peak halo]

It's about that question as an interview questions. Not the question itself.

[smoky quest]

Fair enough. In that case I would argue it's a bad question. Phrased as such, candidates may overthink it, may miss the point due to the stress or may try to guess what's the question is about and not really get to what the interviewer wants. This means the question is ill defined and can lead to false negatives
I would rather draw upon some concrete experience of the candidate.

ex: can you tell me about a time where ...

[narrow owl]

But back to my earlier thought, what is it that gets someone hired?

Commonly we imagine employers to be hyper-efficient in reviewing applications and choosing the best option in every situation. But it probably isn't true because there are plenty of horribly incompetent people that are hired all the time.

So, it does beg the question what matters most in hiring decisions.

Like all humans, hiring managers are influenced by subjective factors

[smoky quest]

What matters the most is the distance function between the candidate and the role to fulfill.

[smoky quest]

You do ask questions that are focused on demonstrated skills and you absolutely try to avoid subjective takes. It's pretty well known that great team are also diverse and thus require people that are different, which goes against subjective takes

[narrow owl]

are you referring to diversity hires?

[smoky quest]

diversity hires typically refers to people of colors or lgbtq+ or minorities. I am referring to diversity in general, which can include color and sexual orientation but could even be about politics or sports

The point is that if everyone is "the same", then there will be only one view on the problem and one approach generally taken. Whereas you would rather have different ideas and point of views to approach problems and collaborate

note also that diversity hire has a bad connotation as it could imply that the person got hired because of their attribute and not their skills. Which is also something that no one wants (I am sure we can find a counter example). Instead of lowering the bar, companies would try to increase the funnel of candidates.

[narrow owl]

I see. that does make sense

[smoky quest]

So to circle back to interviews, that means:

• All the questions have been thought through so that there is a demonstrated skill at the end or some information you want to learn about the candidates. So that it's more about whether or not they possess a given skill and less about how you feel about their answers (where people tend to feel better when they get answers closer to them). The implication here also is that it means the hiring team must have thought through the skills and level required for the job
• You would ask the same questions to all the candidates so that the bar doesn't change in between

It doesn't mean everyone will always do that (there will always be people with different opinions), but these are the current best practices.

[chrome cedar]

So for coding tests that companies use, how exactly are they used for measuring someone's ability to use a language?
I took a 2 question test, 30 minutes per question, where the first one was incredibly easy (at least in Python) but the second was both dumb and pointless

The first was that you had to create a function that took took a string of letters, a list of individual letters as strings, and another string where each letter was separated by a comma. You had to find what letters existed in all three of those variables

For each of the string variables, I converted the them into lists for a lambda var_list = [i for i in var_str]
Then made converted all three lists into sets, and just did an intersection between them like return set(list_one).intersection(set(list_two)).intersection(set(list_three))
That was pretty easy in Python, and could've been difficult in some other languages they let you choose from.

The 2nd question was very dumb and would've been hard to do in any language
They give a string containing one big integer, and you had to split those integers into groups where the sum of each group was equal
IE: with input 123123633 could have 123123_633 since 1+2+3+1+2+3 and 6+3+3 are both equal to 12
The problem is that you weren't supposed to programmatically find just that one split, you had to find any possible ones, such as 123_123_6_33 since each of those groups adds up to 6

But in the 30 minutes that I had, I couldn't figure out how to do it programmatically, and the more I worked on it, the more I couldn't stop thinking "this is a very dumb question to ask"
The point of the questions would be to test your problem solving skills, but this felt like it was purposely built to not be easy to do - but then why have it in there anyways?

I could very well just be dumb and not smart enough to figure that out, but I'd like to think that my ability to do proper multithreading/mutliprocessing, async/await functions, read/write CSV / XML / JSON, and general OOP stuff (classes, inheritance, function overloading in non-Python languages, etc.) would show that I am skilled, but this question bothered me so much that I ended up quitting with 5 minutes left

[smoky quest]

The main answer is the ability to use a specific language doesn't really matter in most cases (except if the job does require a deep expertise in a specific language).
If you are a backend engineer, it doesn't matter if you know python, ruby or java. That's something anyone can pick up in a matter of days or weeks.

The typical goals of these questions are to see how you could solve a problem with the minimum amount of context or domain expertise. To that end, abstract problems as such can be used.
Some of the demonstrated skills one could evaluate:

• Is the person jumping straight to a solution or are they trying to understand the problem
• Is the person writing readable code
• Does the person care about quality and general best practices (ex: validating input, writing tests, etc.)
• Is the person able to articulate why they pick a specific solution and its complexity in terms of time and space
• Is the person able to manipulate trees, DP, etc.
• How does the person deal with bugs in their code
• Proficiency in writing code

With regards to your specific questions, the first one would fit very well as a warm up question for an internship. You aren't learning anything besides the person being able to have a basic understanding of the language. I also hope the actual code you wrote was not what you paste there as writing one liners aren't especially readable.
With regards to the second question, it can be indeed useless if the position is for some relatively run of the mill position. But that could be the required level if the company does run at scale or requires a certain level of sophistication in their system

[drowsy tendon]

What languages have the most potential on the future?

[dense mesa]

Python

[drowsy tendon]

Other than that?

[limber rampart]

I think it should be obvious that this depends on the company that you are applying for ~ and the answers you get when you ask in a public forum will heavily depend on personal experiences that people have. The hiring strategies will differ between companies that have different cultures, organisational structures & aims, and operate in different domains & at various scales. In my company, technical competency is not nearly as important as culture fit and personal interest. If the candidate fits us culturally, aligns with our way of work, is excited to work with us & we are excited to work with them, they will get an offer based on their technical competency. It is of course possible that the expectations will not meet there, but the level of expertise doesn't dictate whether we want the candidate or not. However, I'm fully aware that this is not the way it works everywhere - some companies will primarily be interested in candidates of a certain skill set or level. For companies as large as Google, I would expect their strategies and preferences to differ even across departments, teams, or whatever organisational units they use.

[dense mesa]

Anything web related seems to be getting bigger

[outer haven]

##########good#########

[inner wren]

Hey @amber plume!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[near remnant]

Long story short: i have a friend who works at a company as a team leader dev, he referred me to the company for an internship. The internship position wasn't posted anywhere so it was basically "created" for me thanks to my friend at the company.

The interview went well, my friend told me this week that the HR guy of the company will call me this week to talk about my contract, start of the work, etc. Well, he didn't call.

Should I ask my friend about it or what? I don't want to look like really "needy" or something. I already asked him a couple of days ago so.. But since HR didn't call, I'm a bit confused.

[limber rampart]

Yes, feel free to ask about it ~ if they said they will call, and then do not, it is not needy to remind them.

[near remnant]

I know I just thought it would be a bit needy because I asked my friend on Wednesday about the next steps and when will they call me.

But yeah, I'll probably ask him again.

[limber rampart]

You can wait until Monday if you don't want to bother your friend with work over the weekend

[vapid jay]

donut

[honest pivot]

You're posting in here every day asking about the same situation. Just be patient, when they say "I'll get back to you by the end of the week", in reality it is sometimes the next week, or even the week after that.

[near remnant]

Aight

[near remnant]

I'll just wait

[dusky onyx]

To clear up some confusion; He was an expert in AI Bias, and was hired to report any bad biases it had, which he did over many "discussions" with the AI. I think WIRED had a decent article about it?

[halcyon schooner]

Hey guys I want to start building a software developer career for myself. What would be an easy but respectable project. I’m thinking web scrapping with python. It’s just 1-3 projects that would help me get hired without having a CS degree

[dusky onyx]

What are you looking to get hired in?

[halcyon schooner]

Software developer. Web development. Anything to get me into the world of tech

Maybe more web dev tbh but backend is fine

[dusky onyx]

You'd ideally have at least a few projects related to where you want to apply, but other than that I'd recommend just making a good amount of projects for fun which you can show as reference for proficiency and skills you've developed.

[halcyon schooner]

Any suggestions l?

Thinking web scrapping

[dusky onyx]

Since you mentioned backend webdev, try to think of an API you could implement perhaps. That way you show off knowing python, ability to use frameworks like Flask, how you'd go about writing an application like that, and so on

I don't think web scraping will be too useful for most jobs, but it does show off proficiency in python and perhaps related libraries

[halcyon schooner]

Ok so I’ll implement and api with using flask. Know anyone decent in terms of education?

[dusky onyx]

How much python do you know?

[halcyon schooner]

Created a discord bot

I’d say enough knowledge knowing python, to create a big project. Not too big but respectable

[dusky onyx]

since that's not a good indicator I'll just link you the basics
https://www.pythondiscord.com/resources/ contains a LOT of resources useful to developers on pretty much all levels
As for flask, their documentation is at https://flask.palletsprojects.com/en/2.1.x/
I think we're getting a little off-topic from career discussions at this point, so try to use the relevant channels from here on out 👍

[summer roost]

I agree with recursive that it's a bad question. The answer is entirely "it depends". Is it already better than what's in production today? What risks are associated with it failing? What language is it written in? What static analysis has it passed? Is it on the order of 5 lines of code or 5 thousand? How many people have read the code? Was the design discussed with others in advance?

[halcyon schooner]

Thank you brother

[summer roost]

Commonly we imagine employers to be hyper-efficient in reviewing applications and choosing the best option in every situation. But it probably isn't true because there are plenty of horribly incompetent people that are hired all the time.
But also... Half of all developers are below average, by definition. It's not a bad thing for below-average developers to get jobs, it's only a bad thing for below-average developers to wind up in roles where they hurt rather than help the productivity of the team that they're on. Most software that needs to get built, even at huge companies, doesn't require experts or geniuses.

[summer roost]

For what it's worth, I don't think that second question is too tough for an interview - especially if they're just looking to see whether you can figure out the right approach, rather than whether you can completely execute that approach in the time window. The solution to that problem has two basic parts: find all possible groupings, and then filter out any groupings where all the groups don't have the same sum. The first part is reasonably easy to do recursively (each digit after the first can either be the start of a new group or a continuation of the previous group, so you recurse once for each of those options). The second part should be pretty easy once you have the list of possible groupings.

I suspect the goal of that question is to see whether or not candidates can come up with a recursive algorithm.

obviously there are optimizations that you could take to prune some branches of the search tree without needing to generate every possible grouping, but I doubt they were looking for a particularly optimized approach given the time constraints.

[winged lichen]

Hello, I want to learn python for data analytics. I don't have any experience with any programming languages. I haven't touched maths for so long. Which kind of maths you should be good at for analytics? I'm currently in final year of Bachelor's of Business Administration and I'm planning for MBA in Data analytics. My main aim is Marketing Research Analyst job role.

What resources I should follow for python learning for data analytics? What IDE is suitable for data analytics and is widely used?

What skills are required aside from python for data analytics if anyone is from the same role?

[lean moth]

Don't think you would need recursion for it, the way I would do it is first grouping the first 1, 2, 3, 4 etc. characters, and then got through the rest, iterating until you get the sum of the first group, then go to next group etc. until you get to the end, or can't sum consequent characters to the sum.

[honest pivot]

You never need recursion. It just might be simpler to express the algorithm that way.

[lean moth]

Right, but more so implying that I don't think recursion is necessarily the best/most intuitive way to do this.

[honest pivot]

But I do think asking a question specifically to "see if you can come up with a recursive solution" is kinda dumb, I think we generally avoid recursive functions for the sake of readability, except in a few specific cases.

[summer roost]

that'd work too, though I think it'd be significantly harder to implement than the recursive solution

[lean moth]

def find_splits(number):
    combinations = []
    for i in range(1, len(number)):
        # Calculate the total of each group
        total = sum(map(int, number[:i]))

        #Initialize the bins for tracking the splits
        bins = [0, i]

        # Go through the rest to see if we can split it into groups that sum to total
        cur_total = 0
        while True:
            cur_total += int(number[i])
            i += 1

            # Found the next group
            if cur_total == total:
                cur_total = 0
                bins.append(i)
                # This is the final group, we add it to the results
                if i == len(number):
                    combinations.append([number[a:b] for a, b in zip(bins, bins[1:])])
                    break
            
            # This means that we got to the end, but did not get to the total
            if i == len(number):
                break

            # We overshot, this split is not possible
            if cur_total > total:
                break

    return combinations

print(find_splits('123123633'))

This would be my solution if anyone was interested, without recursion

[chrome cedar]

I'm about to go through a similar assessment, but this one is from Amazon themselves, so I'll see what kind of questions they ask

[delicate bane]

getting really good at statistics would help.

if you dont have any experience, you can start with Alex the Analyst or similar youtube channels to begin with for data analytics. if you have additional questions, you can ask in #data-science-and-ml

[winged lichen]

Thanks!

[dense mesa]

Apply for jobs, do the interviews, anywhere you fail/get feedback to improve on, target that

[edgy atlas]

i am thinking to Pursue BTech in Computer Science with Specializations in AI & ML

any Advice?

[limpid osprey]

Is it true that most software engineers works very hard and very stress but earns less, no matter is it being employed or self-employed?

[summer roost]

not in my experience, but that may depend on your country and local market.

[limpid osprey]

Owh kk thanks

[dense mesa]

Which country for context

[long frost]

how can I start bot developing ?

[gilded valley]

Sounds like a question better suited to #discord-bots unless you mean generic bots for more things - if so, then #python-discussion

[vapid jay]

Venez en mp pour vous faire énormément d'argent

[fleet reef]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[chrome cedar]

So I finished up the Amazon assessment, which used the same site for the test, but the question were actually written by Amazon
The question was something like this:
Amazon tracks the ratings of products daily, where each product can have a rating of 1-5
You're given a list of integers, with each element being the rating for some product for each given day
Define a function to find sets of consecutive days where the product rating decreased
So given a list [3, 2, 1, 3], you get each individual day (not sure why but that was in the prompt), and you would also have [3, 2] and [3, 2, 1], and [2, 1] for a total of [3, 2, 1, 3, [3, 2], [3, 2, 1], [2, 1]
I don't remember my exact solution but it was basically a nested loop along the lines of:

def consecutive_decrease(ratings):
    combinations = [i for i in ratings]

    for i in range(len(ratings)):
        prev = ratings[i]
        bins = [prev]
        for j in ratings[i+1:]:
            if prev > j:
                bins.append(j)
                combinations.append(bins)
                bins = [k for k in bins]
            else:
                bins = []
                break
            prev = j
    return combinations

Even though it was kind of a small / basic problem ,this at least had realistic context and required more than just making nested loops
If I didn't recreate the bins variable with bins = [k for k in bins] then I would get a situation where combinations would look like [3, 2, 1, 3, [3, 2, 1], [3, 2, 1], [2, 1]]

And you can definitely do this with a single loop instead of a nested one

[peak halo]

this seems only tangentially related to the channel topic. also, the list comps that define combinations and bins don't do anything except ensure that it's a list.

[chrome cedar]

I was relating this to my earlier question of what people think about coding assessments, where the random recruiting company's question were kind of weird while at least Amazon's were sensible
As for the list comps, the first is to include each individual day as their question asked to. The bins = [k for k in bins] was to prevent the issue I mentioned afterwards, where if you didn't do that, you would have bins contain two copies of the same list, which would be incorrect

[honest pivot]

Yeah, that's not what that does. Hopefully they'll overlook it

[chrome cedar]

I mean you can change it to not include that line and see what happens, because that's what it did for me

[daring lagoon]

Would anyone be interested in testing out an AI chat bot I helped develop?

[astral ermine]

Can it say funny jokes?

[daring lagoon]

Sometimes

I noticed it likes ending conversations abruptly, like a human

[astral ermine]

Ah, perfect. A ghosting feature.

[daring lagoon]

Oh no it says goodbye at least lmao

But if you're interested I can add you

[astral ermine]

Sure, you may dm the details

[daring lagoon]

Just an example of Eva's speech patterns and overall comprehension of certain topics. She can refer back to old messages made a couple minutes ago and keep the conversation going, up until she doesn't want to talk anymore of course, which is odd.

She is very knowledgeable about certain subjects so you can talk to her about almost anything, even politics

She was made using our modified version of the GPT-3 AI and imported to discord through Python

[smoky quest]

Hi! That sounds awesome, but that's not really related to #career-advice . You would probably get more relevant feedback on either #python-discussion or #data-science-and-ml

[west tide]

Hey guys i did My BSc in Maths and now studying MBA in business anlytics, How much impact my education will have on my career as data scientist

[peak halo]

what country is this?

[dawn sedge]

Hey y'all! Is this class worth it for the certification or should I just attend the classes for free? I am going into the medical field to become a pediatrician or child psychiatrist but I also want to conduct clinical research trials. I think taking this class will give me a basic understanding of how data is analyze in computer programs, but I want advice before I make a decision involving money. Is this worth it?

https://www.edx.org/course/python-for-data-science-2

[vapid jay]

What are your guys thoughts on AI like GitHub copilot one day replacing programmers

[vapid jay]

Honestly i would go on YouTube first because there are some really good tutorial out there

[brazen trail]

hard for me to see how it will make programmers obsolete... it's like saying autocomplete/suggest on phone keyboards will make poets obsolete

I think the most we can hope from these sorts of tools is a modest increase in productivity

[brazen trail]

my take on most of these online courses is: take it for free if you would have to pay for it yourself, and get the certification if your work has a reimbursement program

I'm taking some edx courses right now, but work is going to pay for the cert

[buoyant seal]

I feel completely safe, because it would be literally the last job to automate among all jobs

[alpine current]

I want to try and freelance program on fiverr, any advice?

[dense mesa]

Start small so you can scale quickly, learn from people who have done it already, read as much as you can online about it

[vapid jay]

hi

[safe comet]

Hi, I'm new to coding but would like to learn Python 3. Does anybody have suggestions for good free resources?

[iron cedar]

Im about to finish with my GCSES and will be going to do Computer Science and Maths as a-level's followed by a degree in computer science (possibly).

I am quite stuck as to what job i want to do when im older, i want something that contains programming. Anyone able to give me a list of jobs possibly? thanks.

[dense mesa]

Ask for resources in #python-discussion as this channel is for career discussion

[dense mesa]

Hopefully you have a 3rd a level in there, as otherwise it may be difficult to get into UK unis.

If you've studied computer science, software engineering is a common route. Also cyber security, data science, web development, etc

[iron cedar]

alright thanks, yeah i forgot to mention im doing business a-level aswell 😀

[dense mesa]

Depends on the recruiter, location, industry etc. Shop around and that

[limber copper]

sure

[daring lagoon]

Pm me

[gilded valley]

The formatting on this bit is a bit weird - the languages section being centred makes it feel like a title, but it isn't

[true harness]

putting Java/C# is a little weird. those languages are not similar enough to be "/"ed together

[vapid jay]

Hi I'm a physics post graduate and am thinking of switching to software field. I have basic knowledge of python packages numpy and matplotlib. I have worked as student assistant and have co authored 2 International publications. But other than that I have no professional experience. Will it be possible for me to get into any entry level job in this industry? Or should I enhance my knowledge and then apply? Because I'm getting far too many rejections outright.

[honest pivot]

In what industry? And what degree level do you have?

[vapid jay]

At this point industry no longer matters to me... I have a masters in physics

[honest pivot]

Industry matters in terms of finding something that lines up with your skills, or if such a thing doesn't exist, figuring out what you need to do about your skills.

What topic is your masters in?

[vapid jay]

Physics

[honest pivot]

Nothing more specific than that?

[vapid jay]

Nope I have done my thesis in superconducting qubits.

[honest pivot]

Then that is something more specific. Have you looked at quantum computing? Python is used a lot there.

[vapid jay]

Yup I'm looking into it as well. Initially I wanted to try in semiconductor industry. But no luck...

[honest pivot]

From this brief conversation, I can say probably your communication skills need work

[vapid jay]

Oh I was rather confident in that aspect at least.

[honest pivot]

For every job, you need to be able to make the case that you have something to offer, not just "I have a degree in X". Are you getting interviews?

[vapid jay]

No I haven't gotten any interviews.

[honest pivot]

Also, are you writing cover letters? Physics to software is a career change, it helps to explain your application a bit and why you are making this jump (and how your skills transfer). Do not copy/paste the same cover letter to everyone. Write something new and individual to each employer.

[vapid jay]

OK I will do that. I wrote a cover letter that mostly explains what I am good at.

[graceful mason]

Have you considered getting some sort of physics based job and developing your software/data science skills before trying to pivot?

[honest pivot]

And regarding QC in particular, do you know which companies are using superconducting qubits? Do you know how your skills transfer to the companies that aren't? If your knowledge is more on the hardware side, you might want to consider companies building hardware.

[vapid jay]

Oh yes... Its just rejection after rejection.

[honest pivot]

Yeah, these companies generally want PhDs

[honest pivot]

Unfortunately there aren't really any "physics based jobs" outside of academia unless accompanied by strong software skills

[vapid jay]

Well regarding the thesis, what I did was more inclined towards simulation. The manufacturing and measurement were done by a PhD student.

[honest pivot]

Did you write simulation code?

[vapid jay]

The simulation was done in a software called COMSOL

So I designed it and ran the simulation to optimise the design.

Anyway thanks for the info! 😊

[vapid jay]

thanks, ill try and put scripting languages p, j and # in one and c/c++ in another

[vapid jay]

theyre almost the same thign arent they, i havent noticed a big difference syntax wise

theyre different things that does the same thing on the same level

[true harness]

sure lol

[near ocean]

Do you have a link to your github profile elsewhere on your cv?
I would link the deployed project but also pin it on github so its easier to find

What kind of project is it

If its something like a blog or has a landing page and is fancy i would definitely link the deployment and not source code

Hm, does it not have anything in the frontend? What do you see if you visit the project, json responses?

What do you mean, did you use a template? Or did you do it collaboratively?

[near remnant]

I put the heroku link in my CV and mention that it was deployed with Docker. But also link my github

[near ocean]

Yea i think thats good, link the webpage not the source code on your cv

[west tide]

India

[peak halo]

I work in language AI professionally. As has been mentioned, copilot is like smartphone autocomplete for code, but better. to suggest that copilot will eventually replace programmers is to suggest that smartphone autocomplete will eventually replace you as a person.

copilot's predictions are based on code that was written by humans, and more importantly, it doesn't "know" what problem the code is intended to solve. copilot is a far cry away from a system where you input a problem statement in natural language, and it returns a complete system that solves it.

this is really a topic for #data-science-and-ml, however.

[patent grove]

any thoughts on a career as a data engineer vs software engineer? which pays well and is one better?

[delicate bane]

not to mention - it really helps write code faster imo

[delicate bane]

hmm i think seattle data guy covered this topic in one of his videos, but i would def ask around (he def covered salary expectations though)

[peak halo]

data engineer is going to be more specialized. my search on glassdoor shows that data engineers near me make slightly more than software engineers.

[delicate bane]

https://youtu.be/Sj5iZTkUKmM

iirc he goes further into different factors affecting salary, since theres many like location like Stel mentioned

[patent grove]

are glassdoor salaries accurate/reliable?

also could i tell u a role/company and maybe you can estimate some type of salary?

[summer roost]

Take them with a grain of salt, of course, since they're coming from strangers on the Internet, but I'm my experience they tend to be relatively reliable, since people don't have much incentive to lie when reporting them.

[patent grove]

Any salary thoughts/estimates on a Full Stack Data and Analytics Engineering position at Lennar would be based out in Miami (It is fully remote, and my HCOL is bay area)

[honest pivot]

That's very specific

[patent grove]

yeah probably going to get this position @honest pivot was just wondering because someone might have received more offers/knows the market better than i do in here yknow

[peak halo]

They're from strangers on the internet. But we are also strangers on the internet. So you're better off trusting the average of many strangers rather than the first respondent in this channel.

[patent grove]

fair enough lol

couldnt find anything online so its why i asked haha

[smoky quest]

That depends on your location.
Your title is also a bit confusing since it mixes up fullstack with data and analytics. But either way, that should be at least something like 120k + stock/option, assuming entry level

[smoky quest]

They are a bit outdated. So I would take it with a grain of salt

[patent grove]

yeah my location is the bay area but the team is located in miami, FL

[heavy karma]

someone has good fastapi tutorial?

[smoky quest]

Doesn't matter. Your cost of living is not based on their location.

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
This is the wrong channel for that type of question. You should check out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[heavy karma]

thanks and sorry

[dense mesa]

Sounds like a behavioural interview, they'll likely ask you questions to see if you're a good fit for the company

[honest pivot]

"Quick chat on the phone" could also just mean telling you the result (and, if positive, asking if you want to proceed further)

[vapid jay]

Do people care about your resume as long as it is simple enough?

[smoky quest]

It depends on what you mean.
In general, the resume is the piece of paper that makes the company want to call you back and gives a 10k ft overview of who you are

[vapid jay]

Can I post my resume here for a quick look?

[smoky quest]

sure

• avoid multiple column formats
• grouping them is a good idea
• You should expand on your projects. It's pretty light in details

[vapid jay]

Thank you for the feedback

[patent grove]

do non tech companies actually pay this high tho

[vapid jay]

Yes they pay well

Cuz they dont know much about coding so more money thrown = better results for them

[smoky quest]

Why does it matter? You can find other companies to pay your local market

[vapid jay]

Also tech companies go up to 250 for more common positions

[smoky quest]

If I offer to pay you half of what you normally charge, why would you accept it?

[smoky quest]

no companies would pay an entry level for 250k cash

[vapid jay]

No i mean third level positions

[smoky quest]

ah yeah, eventually one could get there

[vapid jay]

Projects lacking. It's the most important

[gilded valley]

The best source for salary data in the US at location level is the BLS which gives you average salaries for software developer down to either a county or metropolitan area

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm

[pulsar drum]

Would be even better if the data was categorised by experience/level.

[gilded valley]

Even roles on glassdoor aren't all that great of a proxy for experience - what makes someone senior at one company can be very different to at another

[smoky quest]

Does it include stock/options? I guess stock would since it would be part of the wages

[gilded valley]

No stock bonuses or even EoY bonuses. For software devs it's pretty much just salary

[delicate bane]

what do they count as software dev though (since its so broad)? i feel like thats something to consider when using that data to make decisions as well.

[gilded valley]

I feel like if you're looking for an idea of headline salaries, it's going to be much more accurate than Glassdoor

[summer roost]

If the BLS numbers aren't total comp but just salary, that seems like they'd be much less accurate than Glassdoor, I would think

or at least, would tell you less about what you actually want to know

[gilded valley]

If you're looking for headline salary - then BLS is likely to be most accurate because of the larger and unbiased* sample

and conversations usually clarify whether they're talking about salary vs TC - e.g people talk about FAANG having a lot more of the TC come as equity, whereas many more traditional companies don't offer many/any real equity options

[summer roost]

If you're looking for headline salary
I guess I don't understand - why would you look for that?

[gilded valley]

Because it's a simple number that can be used for comparisons - trying to compare "well I get equity options and a decent pension" you have to consider how to value those things

also - lots and lots of companies don't offer any equity options, and relatively small bonuses

[summer roost]

sure, but plenty of other companies use bonuses or options as a substantial proportion of your compensation

off the top of my head, my cash bonus is around 25% of my TC

seems like if glassdoor would give you a picture of TC and BLS only gives you a picture of salary, comparing comp using the BLS numbers would make companies like mine look like they're less competitive than they actually are, and glassdoor would give you a more accurate picture of how competitive they are

[gilded valley]

In fact - the main number that Glassdoor shoves in your face is base pay - so glassdoor also puts this front and centre rather than TC

[summer roost]

true, but glassdoor does show you total comp when you drill into a company

[gilded valley]

But the base pay number is significantly different to the BLS number at 133k base

(assuming "average" is mean rather than median)

[gilded valley]

it does - for a company level, the BLS is useless

it's most useful when comparing areas and getting a picture of the magnitude of the difference

[summer roost]

the BLS number appears to be for a pretty big metro area, not just NYC - the city pays better than Jersey City or Newark

(and has higher cost of living)

[gilded valley]

I wasn't even doing a like for like comparison - the google result was for senior and i didn't realise

for just the title "software engineer" it's only 109k

[smoky quest]

yeah TC can be complicated as some folks would not divide grants on a per year basis, which muddies up some numbers.
But it's not uncommon for stock/options to be as large and even larger than the base cash

(less for junior engineers though)

[summer roost]

though juniors generally take what they can get, and these sorts of cross-company and cross-city comparisons make more sense at the senior level, where people have more ability to shop around

[smoky quest]

depends if you are forward looking and trying to find a place to invest your future in. But yeah, when you are out of college, you wouldn't necessarily think that way

[gilded valley]

From a location perspective, I'd have thought it would be easier for junior engineers to move just because they're less likely to be homeowners and have less family ties to a given area

Anecdotally, people do put thought and research into that - whether that impacts any actions I'm less sure

[summer roost]

perhaps. I'm not sure how much of a difference home ownership makes, though having kids that you don't want to uproot definitely makes a big difference. But on the flip side, I think juniors also have less of an incentive to move for work than seniors have

[native panther]

i'm a rising high school senior, im working thru a data science course and im hoping my advanced coursework (calc1-3, lin alg, diff eqns, ap stats, ap computer sci), projects, and the course certificate will land me a data science internship somewhere. does anyone have any tips on finding internships?

[summer roost]

In my experience, internships for high school students tend to be exceptionally rare

I'd think so, too

[gilded valley]

My data science team used to offer a 1y internship between high school and university - but they stopped it because there's just so little certainty about ability, how much they can learn and how useful they can be etc.

And that's when the UK government gave them a bunch of money for doing it, so yeah, I'd be very surprised if there were many places offering it in the US

Also they kept not coming back to the company meaning it was just not a great use of money

[peak halo]

I work for an AI company, and I don't think high school students are ever considered for our internships. But it sounds like you'd be competitive applicant for an internship in the summer after your first year of university.

[delicate bane]

our uni does offer research internships in AI for students who are in a special program where they are taking undergrad classes while in high school, but its very competitive.

they would be placed under grad students and assigned to projects. its also only in the summer lol

[peak halo]

Another consideration is that internships are often part of a company's hiring process, in that they might offer to have you return each summer and then transition to full time once you graduate. They wouldn't want to put that into motion if you haven't yet enrolled in a degree program.

[delicate bane]

you know, ive always wondered if internships are worth it from a company's perspective. what do you think?

i feel like the number of transitions that happen are on the lower side; feels like less than 20% but thats just anecdotal

[peak halo]

A few months ago, my department had a few email threads about "tasking for potential interns" to figure out how many we could have this summer. And the author made clear that interns are "very cheap" compared to year round people

[hearty island]

there was an unicorn at my high school who got an internship at Apple but it must have been through connections

[delicate bane]

hmm hmm i guess if you had well-scoped work that doesnt require much context to get off-the-ground, you could use interns like contractors

obv probably worse performing contractors but same vibes

well uni's are dif than companies though so that makes sense; this sounds like something they would make their FT peeps do as well