career-advice

[gilded valley]

Unpaid internships are not legal. You should not work for this company. I think you would be silly to take it.

[near remnant]

yes, but i get experience and i can put it in my resume. i have money, i had 6 internships during bachelors and masters, i can manage 😂

unfortunately im not a CS graduate, i have business , economics degrees

[near ocean]

my guy, if you've had 6 internships and youre struggling to find work then something else is the problem

[gilded valley]

this is fine, many companies will take people from any remotely mathsy background if they can code

[near remnant]

my guys, i'm not struggling to find work, what do you think, how did I find 6 internships?

[near ocean]

why are you doing an unpaid internship then, go straight into a junior role

[gilded valley]

or go straight into a mid-level role

[near remnant]

lmao i can't

[near ocean]

why not

[gilded valley]

Then you are struggling to find work. An unpaid internship is not work.

[near remnant]

maybe i should just apply for junior roles

[near ocean]

yes you should lol

i didnt even do a single internship in 2 degrees and i got a paid role

[near remnant]

they would hire me after the 3 months as a junior dev tho

[outer dragon]

About 6 months. I'm in a tough situation because I don't have a college degree and I'm a truck driver which is a job that takes up a ton of time so I don't have a lot of time to improve my coding skills.

So something like an apprenticeship program would be perfect, but at the same time I honestly feel like I'm not far off from the skill level of a college graduate if not better

[near ocean]

why wouldnt they hire you from the start

[near remnant]

i have a business & economics management bachelors and a supply chain and operations management masters

[gilded valley]

6 internships and 0 job offers is a sign of something going wrong. To such an extreme extent, that I begin to question whether you're misrepresenting the truth somewhere.

[near remnant]

you missed the part mate, i was studying business and worked only BUSINESS related internships, no tech, no coding, nothing.
So yes, I could accept that and go that route but then I would never become a dev.

[near ocean]

bruh, if your internships are unrelated why mention them

[near remnant]

i thought its obvious lmao, you guys thought i had 6 programming internships?

[gilded valley]

no - even then, if you got a job offer from a big company, just ask them if you can switch onto their tech programs

[near ocean]

so you are struggling to find work

[near remnant]

not me, but @outer dragon

[gilded valley]

I know for a fact my company would say yes to that. I'm fairly sure the company I did an internship before this would have said yes to that.

[near ocean]

i am so confused right now

[near remnant]

me too so just drop the topic

[near ocean]

well then, good luck being a volunteer for 3 months i guess

[gilded valley]

He has done 6 internships, all business related. Wants to go into tech, and thinks a 3 month unpaid internship is a sensible path to do this. Despite the willingness to give away £4,000 worth of time in order to roll the dice on getting a job offer from a company offering an illegal internship, he is not struggling to find a job.

[near remnant]

alright guys, thanks for the enormous help

[gilded valley]

you came with a question of "should I do an unpaid internship" the answer is a resounding no. You asked a question which you probably should know the answer to if you've done 6 internships.

[peak halo]

do you have the option of doing something like a web development bootcamp?

[outer dragon]

I'm not sure, but probably not. I have to keep working for the time being so I'm not sure that I could fit that in, but realistically I can already build anything they're going to teach me with a little bit of googling.

I've been trying to build things for a portfolio I just get tired after driving all day long everyday, so it's hard to make any solid progress on a complicated project but I'm not using that as an excuse.

I'm just in a spot right now where I have to decide if I want to get another driving job or if there's any way I can get into any kind of development position and if it'll be worth it

I'm just frustrated because I can build anything, but I'm not like a rockstar programmer yet. I know all the technologies, but I don't have a ton of time to build a portfolio. Plus I'm always working on a laptop in the back of a truck and it's hard to be productive in that environment.

So one of these training and placement companies would be a cake walk, but I feel like I'd be selling myself short

[dense mesa]

Seems like there's decent demand for a bootcamp/training course that's asynchronous and can work around people with busy schedules. May be something for entrepreneurial people to look into

[delicate bane]

whats wrong with a tech apprenticeship? i think that would be a great path for you especially since you would be paid at the same time.

[outer dragon]

I got turned down by IBM and some other company in Texas. There's one more I'm waiting to hear back from but I don't know about it yet

I'm also 34 so that might not help and I don't have a college degree

[honest pivot]

Are unpaid internships flat out illegal in the UK? In the US, there are some loopholes. But still, the practice is despicable and it is a tool for preventing socioeconomic mobility.

[delicate bane]

my friends and i got rejected by IBM as well and we're graduate students so forget them lol

[outer dragon]

I got turned down by twitch also

[delicate bane]

apprenticeships are built for those without college degrees though

[outer dragon]

I have freelance experience and I've built personal projects that are all on my resume and I just don't know how that's not enough to even get an apprenticeship

[delicate bane]

i mean those are only a handful of places so theyre probably super duper competitive

[outer dragon]

True

[delicate bane]

so if you cast your net wider, that would help

[outer dragon]

I don't see many apprenticeships available but maybe I haven't been looking in the right places

I've mostly been looking for like entry level or Junior positions so maybe I'll have to start searching for apprenticeships specifically

[sick sedge]

I am currently doing a data science degree for my undergrad. I enjoy what I am learning, however, I would like to be qualified for software dev internships and entry level positions once out of school.

I plan on taking the introductory programming sequences my university offers to cs undergrads. Programming 1-3 in java (my ds bachelors does this in python).

However, is there anything I may need beyond being an intermediate java programmer? Perhaps an upper level algorithms course? Can I self-teach myself things to make up the gap in knowledge? Discrete math? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[smoky quest]

As a rule of thumb, the more broad/theory you get at school, the more it pays off long term.
Sounds like you are on track and already aware of what you need

Hi! You are in the wrong channel as this is #career-advice .
You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[delicate bane]

im in a weird situation again

this seems to be a constant theme

2 bosses, 2 different departments in the same company both have stated they want me for a full time role for their teams (currently an intern atm)

1. yes its good news but we shall see if any position actually gets created with the economy the way it is
2. im pretty sure they arent willing to share so its an awkward situation
3. i like both teams and the respective projects im doing for them

[honest pivot]

I thought companies were making record profits. Are they too poor to hire already?

[delicate bane]

many companies are undergoing hiring freezes, etc. atm

im going under the assumption the situation might turn negatively if theres an actual recession

but i could be completely wrong as well

[tame marsh]

I am currently a 9th grader in high school I have no official certification apart from passing the PCAP test for python, I want to get an internship for more coding experience and partially for my college admission

Do I have enough to get an internship? What else can I do to get one and where should I start looking

I took Python I and II in 9th grade and am planning on taking AP computer science next year too

[true harness]

usually internships are looking for people currently in college. you might get lucky and find one that takes high schoolers, but that would be pretty rare. AP computer science is alright for the credit

[peak halo]

Internships are almost always for current college/university students, but it sounds like you're already doing the things that computer science admissions counselors want to see. are you taking advanced math courses as well?

@vapid jay please don't cross-post in discussion channels. thanks!

[delicate bane]

thats good. have you also considered programs like Google's Summer of Code?

[tame marsh]

Thank you for the advice!

[true harness]

at least for high school, you're probably going to be able to learn much more outside of school than in your classes

[tame marsh]

Yes, I am taking math III right now and next year physics, AP stat, and pre calc

I am also planning on taking calc ab and bc

[true harness]

why both? the first half of bc calc is the ab calc curriculum

[tame marsh]

It's 18 and over apparently:(

[tame marsh]

I think it's a North Carolina thing but the classes are more vastly different and generally you are expected to take both

[true harness]

the AP curriculum is standardized, that's the whole point, but sure whatever

[tame marsh]

Yea I was confused about that too, I'm not sure

I guess ab covers calculus ab and bc coves c so I have to take both classes to learn every concept

[delicate bane]

oof. well you can always contribute to an open source project if youre seriously interested in coding

[delicate bane]

in some school districts, you can do BC by itself if youre a really good math student but like 90% of them require taking AB first

[true harness]

in mine, you don't need to. a few of my friends didn't take the class and just took the exam

[delicate bane]

nice nice. i think thats good for sure if youre good at self-study

kinda jealous tbh lol but i know i was bad at self-study in high school

[honest pivot]

Can confirm, North Carolina does wonky things with AP classes

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @slow crane until <t:1654106891:f> (9 minutes and 59 seconds) (reason: newlines rule: sent 146 newlines in 10s).

[vapid jay]

why python logo is gay now

[analog sun]

the reason for the new branding is in #changelog

also check out PSF's diversity statement https://www.python.org/psf/diversity/

[peak halo]

we change our branding every June for pride let us know in #community-meta if you have any questions about that

[split oasis]

I feel like I blew my first interview 😭 (?

[gilded valley]

What makes you say that?

[split oasis]

one of the people interviewing was a computer science professor. There was supposed to be a physics professor too, but she didn't show up. I told them that I was originally studying computer science but dropped out and studied physics because it was more of a challenge.. Then when he asked me if I considered myself a python wizard, I told him that I had only been using python for a year, and forgot to tell him all the different projects I've done with python. I just mentioned that I did research in quantum mechanics with it using numpy for lineal algebra operations, but I've done way more using streams, webhooks, threads, events and learning some machine learning, and I mentioned nothing about it 😂

I must look like a weak candidate that said that computer science was easy 💔

I probably should have deleted my research experience from my resume if it wasn't related to python. Should have added my python projects and oh well, it's done

The worst part is that this is one of my first places I applied to, and my research experience in my resume reads as if a kindergartener wrote it. I hadn't refined it yet.

[dense mesa]

We're about to get a recruitment message

[north meadow]

Lol what if you were?

[gilded valley]

They're not allowed in this server

[dense mesa]

You can't recruit here 😃

[gilded valley]

it doesn't sound like the end of the world, the only thing that it seems like you should have changed is mentioning the breadth of your experience with Python

[north meadow]

Then I will hold my keyboard

[split oasis]

if you pay about 200k a year and take newbies... then you are free to spam me thru DM (?

[split oasis]

Yeah oh well I failed to adapt to the circumstances but I will be prepared next time

[gilded valley]

Remember, it's not a test, they're not really looking for reasons to fail you - it's a conversation to try and establish if you're a good fir for the role

[ivory sluice]

hi

[north meadow]

Don't have any jobs like that unfortunately. Otherwise I would just recruit myself

[ivory sluice]

please do read our #rules and the channel description of this channel

!rule 6 9

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[split oasis]

oh man I knew I was going to break the rules with that comment 😂

[north meadow]

Eh you barely broke it lol

[dense mesa]

@split oasis @north meadow there are two links for recruitment in the channel description btw

[north meadow]

Hey thanks!

[split oasis]

yes, thank you... I will try to remember this

[limber grove]

hi! does anyone know a website that has a list of internships to look into for cs? thanks!

[worldly carbon]

.

[split oasis]

not really

What I do is look online on google 😂

I found 1 internship position and it led to 1 interview... all on google 😂

[royal peak]

Hi , i have learnt fundamental computer science and was thinking about how i can i find job because i have not yet specialized in any field yet

[near ocean]

You cant really find a job with fundamental knowledge in anything

[smoky quest]

What do you mean by fundamental of computer science?
What's your plan? degree, bootcamp, self-taught? Any previous experience?

[split oasis]

I think Shery means the conceptual stuff in general without specialization

Shery's plan is to make moneys and wants to know how to get there starting from current position

[near ocean]

Step one is pick an area and go deeper in it

[split oasis]

the worrisome part is graduating without having found that area of interest

[near ocean]

Having graduated means you'll have a couple projects from school in many an area regardless of you liking them or not

[split oasis]

Oh that's right

[split oasis]

if you have worked on projects, those are possible starting points, you can present those to apply for entry level positions I think in related fields

Wrong place 😅 sorry (I sent an image accidentally)

[vale crater]

Resume is what get you in door

Coding interviews is what gets your hired once you're in the door.

Coding interview is leetcode + behavior

Resume consists of: Skills, Projects, Degree/Bootcamp, Interests, and Internships/past work exp

[near ocean]

Passing a technical interview doesnt mean youre in
Its one of the steps, you need to pass the interview as a whole

If you ace the tests but youre an asshole youre probably not getting in
Technical skills can be taught

[royal peak]

What i should have asked is that... Now that i understand how computer executes code and some theory behind it. Which field should i pick so i can get a job most quickly... I have interest in machine learning and ai but i dont have math foundations for that yet.. currently i am jobless in a third world country so i want to choose a field where can i get a job most quickly..

[split oasis]

So, you have no degree?

[viral estuary]

In development I'm able to send data from react.js to django(backend)but when i open in mobile(port 192.1.68.27. :3000)i can't ,why?

[royal peak]

Im self learning

[dense mesa]

@viral estuary this channel is for career discussion, ask your question in #python-discussion or look at #❓｜how-to-get-help

[royal peak]

So no degree or certifications...

[split oasis]

It's quite hard to tell you what to do. Most people in this channel started off in better circumstances. At the very least they are American or European.

Or they are from third world countries but have a degree.

[smoky quest]

frontend is the most common route for self taught.
You could look for jobs in your local area and see what they are asking for

[pearl spire]

I'm curious what you mean by "better circumstances". Do you mean easier accessible education and information?

[split oasis]

no, that's accessible in the third world too

I mean wealthier

[pearl spire]

Perhaps, but the wealth gap is massive in the West

[split oasis]

no, like... the country is wealthy in that... wait where are you from?

[pearl spire]

The US 🙂

[split oasis]

okay, just wanted to know what point of view I had to offer you

[pearl spire]

Understood, no prob. Not offended but I was trying to understand your perspective of those in the West who really have no means of obtaining further education, so I don't know what you meant by "better circumstances".

[split oasis]

In third world countries there are usually very few big companies that offer full time positions in CS related jobs, and these are mostly offered to people with degrees because there is a surplus of degrees compared with the available jobs

[pearl spire]

That's true

[split oasis]

So either the country is wealthy or you are wealthy (your wealth includes your degree, citizenship, network, etc)

[pearl spire]

I agree with that

[jagged glade]

not to mention that the bigger companies overseas very much prefer h1b or equivalent visas, and those mostly require degrees

[pearl spire]

@split oasis Sorry, I wasn't trying to be like "WHAT YOU TRYING TO SAY?!" lol 🙂

[split oasis]

I know. It's just that if you were from a third world country I would've had to explain things a little differently 😅

[pearl spire]

Oh I'm sure

I don't want to sound pretentious either. Poverty exists here the US as well. Sadly, we kind of neglect those people, and none of our politicians really address it

[split oasis]

Yeah his best bet might be to network so well with people overseas that they are willing to go to the trouble of hiring him somehow 😅

[pearl spire]

But I can't imagine what poverty looks like elsewhere....

Anyways, sort of digressing on this channel 🙂

[split oasis]

I grew up in Mexico and even I can't imagine the full extent of it. I was able to go to California every year and visit Disneyland, Universal Studios, etc.

I kinda had to study economics and psychology to begin to understand from a third person perspective

I always felt like I was so smart and special, but now I realize that I was just privileged 😂

My family was so wealthy that I didn't have to think about working, ever... so I just focused on studying whatever I wanted, and I did have better access to information than my peers (my parents paid me private tutors and stuff)

Now I feel bad for thinking I was better than others

When my parent's wealth decreased, I decided to get serious about getting a degree and since I am a US citizen, I got paid to come to study to the US

Even in the US I did better than my American peers, but they were working in a job or being active in club activities to achieve some future goal.

[dense mesa]

Being smart isn't always the best thing for a career

[split oasis]

Bottom line is that if you look at how wealthy a country or an individual is... you can explain much~

😂 @dense mesa

[dense mesa]

?

[split oasis]

by the way I was laughing at the thumbs down

[dense mesa]

Yeah because I disagree

[split oasis]

this is true

my point was that wealth influences smartness, but for a career you need to look at yet more factors

[split oasis]

Why do you disagree 😭

[dense mesa]

I think it used to definitely be a deciding factor: if you had low income, there simply weren't enough opportunities in those areas, and no means to look further

That's kind of been thrown aside by the internet and the ease of learning basically anything

Obviously if you have better access to capital, connections, opportunities, etc, you'll have it easier. But there does seem to be a gradual change towards people taking the reins now, to the point where it doesn't make a huge difference (provided they have this internet access etc)

[split oasis]

I know that is true in the US

but there are third world countries where the people live below a misery line that most people in western countries don't even know exists

They need:

1. Access to internet
2. Time
3. Overcome language barrier (even though Spanish is the 2nd most spoken language in the world with a european country that speaks it, the amount of information available in spanish is miserable)
4. Peers (Humans are social, and we tend to favor those who are like us... this is the whole argument for "white privilege" that most people in the developed world is white and thus if you aren't white, getting peers is harder because of human psychology)

[delicate bane]

as someone who studied sociology for one of my two majors in undergrad, im going to push back on that last point and say that concept is much more nuanced than you are giving it justice

but sociology concepts are OOT, and the main point is networking is important in career development

[delicate bane]

literally this. one of my good friends lives in a 3rd world country but is a phenomenal coder

[split oasis]

yeah I immediately regretted saying "the whole argument for..." 😂

[split oasis]

I believe this, but I would bet he was wealthier than his peers

[delicate bane]

nope

[split oasis]

you sure?

[delicate bane]

100%

yes access to resources is important but individual intrinsic motivation is important as well

[split oasis]

so he didn't go to college, and he either learned as a child or while working a minimum wage job?

[split oasis]

yes intrinsic motivation is always important

[delicate bane]

lets just say one of those options; i feel weird about talking about his life story in a public server like this

[split oasis]

I bet his friend found it in the trash

[delicate bane]

guess where my friend lives

omg literally this 100%

hes always on mobile discord instead

literally this.
probs part of the motivation of learning to code and whatnot too.

i think thats a good path imo

[split oasis]

Just to clarify I wasn't saying anything about motivation... you can be really wealthy and have no motivation to do anything... who am I kidding you still might learn to code, just pay the right people to teach you

😂

[delicate bane]

if you have money, you could just use it to make more money

also if you have no motivation to do anything, you dont really need to if you have loads of wealth lol

but i personally believe you should at least volunteer/do non-profit work/find really fulfilling hobbies if youre in that situation, otherwise...

certain things would be difficult

[split oasis]

They usually do, learning to code could be a fun hobby for them

[north turret]

I'm curious, can I ask any question related to career here

[pulsar drum]

If it's related to software development and not a recruitment ad then basically yes

[north turret]

Well i think my question might fit here lmaoo

So i'm a comp sci student and I'm kind of starting to fall out of the coding vibe lol, I am wondering what kind of paths are available aside from software engineering

[pulsar drum]

You mean related careers that don't focus as much on coding?

[north turret]

Possibly, I am currently curious and just venturing different lanes i could take with comp sci at this point

[pulsar drum]

Some related things that come to mind are software security, QA, v&v, SRE, devops

[north turret]

i'm a 4th year student at uni and i've successfully failed at trying to secure an internship so i'm kinda giving up but exploring other things. I have decided to also learn python when i possibly get the chance to.

[north turret]

these are intresting options, i'll take a chance to look into them when i can

[summer roost]

Network engineering is another career that's in the same general direction but doesn't involve coding. Systems administration as well. Database engineer, too, perhaps.

[north turret]

Okay thank you!

I'm curious to ask fellow software engineers tho, is there a way I can learn to improve my skills because my technical skills suck?

[smoky quest]

• Improve the theory/fundamentals -> read books
• Improve the practical knowledge -> write code and make projects

[north turret]

💀 as sad as this might sound i don't think i've actually tried to read a book outside the stuff they tell us to read in class that is thick and dense lmao

any recommendations or place to start?

[smoky quest]

it's exactly like recommending a movie, or a restaurant: what are you in the mood for?

[north turret]

give me some faves?

[smoky quest]

The head first collection is a pretty engaging and easy to read collection. I can recommend the design patterns one if you want to improve your software design and OOP skills

[north turret]

which one is the design patterns?

[smoky quest]

the one where the title is: head first - design patterns

literally :p
See https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08P3X99QP/

[north turret]

i actually might have access to this through my school account

i'll check them out!

[smoky quest]

enjoy!
There are all sorts of books, from intro to text books, and from boring to passionate

[vapid jay]

is it a good time to learn game dev??

Are there any opportunities for it???

[finite lark]

ofc yes

[finite lark]

a good time was in the covid pandemic

and summer is also good

Game Dev can also be fun, but you might have to Problem Solve which when u experience more and more game development. You can find the problems quicker. Also Game Dev Requires A Lot more Math and if You aren't some Guy who ctrl c and ctrl v the math you can even learn math with game dev.

[smoky quest]

gamedev is notorious for having bad working environments though.
You could have better working conditions and compensation in other fields

[finite lark]

Oh and Also Low Budget

Game Dev is Mostly For Fun, Not to Become a Billionaire and the Next Elon Musk

And Personally if u wanna do game dev and yknow Python, One Very Good Option is to work with Ursina

Although u gotta do some digging around for Features bc the Engine is quite new and there aren't good tutorials

[dawn sentinel]

happy pride month

[hollow bramble]

im looking to be a robot programmer

is python good for a robot programmer, like a moving robotic hand?

[obsidian lynx]

Hello guys ! In which channel can I ask help for my pygame code ? There are so many channels 😅

[pulsar drum]

Please see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[obsidian lynx]

Ohhh I didn’t saw it thanks bro

[near remnant]

Is it worth it to apply for jobs which were posted 2-3 weeks ago?

[obsidian lynx]

Well if the job is interesting for you I think yes

[near remnant]

I got a referral there but I couldn't apply sooner. I was just wondering if its possible to get a job if it was posted 2-3 weeks ago.

[obsidian lynx]

Ahh I guess yes you can why can’t you? :p

Maybe he is still recruiting yeah

[smoky quest]

yes. Ads can be posted for weeks. Rule of thumb is that as long as it's there, it's available

[dense mesa]

You can use it but it's not common to

[hollow bramble]

What's the best for programming robotics

[split oasis]

Would you use a raspberry pi?

[hollow bramble]

What's that I only know python

[sick trench]

What do you think more suitable between these CV?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/onc8ulon6zgcvud/RESUME_FIRST.pdf
https://www.careercup.com/images/resume_careercup_markedup.gif

[dense mesa]

There isn't one standardised language in industry

[dense mesa]

For beginners/hobbyists yes, need something more capable for industrial use

[hollow bramble]

So what is the most common and standardised for robotics?

[dense mesa]

No

To respond to your edited question, most people will start by programming controllers using a Raspberry Pi and the Arduino language. It's possible to do this in Python as well

But this is for smaller projects and when you start out, actual "robots" will use some kind of proprietary development environment and language

[split oasis]

This is good. Raspberry pi is a tiny computer that can control a robot arm, and it allows you to program using python.

I would have a look at some MIT online courses on robotics

[hollow bramble]

Oh

[hollow bramble]

@dense mesa why dislike

[dense mesa]

The definition is very misleading, additionally Python isn't a great way to get started with robot programming. It abstracts too much behaviour and you won't understand what's going on

[split oasis]

I took the definition from the official site 😂

[hollow bramble]

Hoe about c## for robotics

[dense mesa]

That's not the part I meant 😃

[split oasis]

And I only told him that he could use python because he said that's the only thing he knows

[dense mesa]

C## isn't a language, C++ or C# are languages

[hollow bramble]

Ok they good for robotics?

I know it from roblox like lua

They seem to be good for robotics

[dense mesa]

As I mentioned earlier, it's not a very accepted way of learning robot programming because so much behaviour is abstracted that you're not considering the mathematics behind it

[split oasis]

Yeah but he gives me the vibes of a kid exploring stuff

[dense mesa]

C++ can be used, C# is not common to use. They are better in terms of being lower level, and allowing for finer control, but as I've said multiple times, there's no standard language for industrial robot programming

[hollow bramble]

Sooo what's the top 3

[dense mesa]

If you want a fun project, get a raspberry pi robotics kit and follow along with whatever it says

[dense mesa]

There is no "top 3", each one has its own use cases and trade-offs

[hollow bramble]

Ok I will learn c++

[dense mesa]

This channel is for career discussion, so I'm giving advice in the context of careers.

[split oasis]

May I recommend you the cherno video series on C++?

[hollow bramble]

Yes

[split oasis]

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlrATfBNZ98dudnM48yfGUldqGD0S4FFb

[hollow bramble]

Lengt

[split oasis]

Much of what he teaches is timeless although not very practical, you'll understand the differences in paradigm between c++ and other languages

[split oasis]

Ah okay I understand this 😂

[hollow bramble]

Length?

[split oasis]

What do you mean?

[dense mesa]

If you're gonna start discussing C++ can you do it in #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[hollow bramble]

Time

[split oasis]

For/of what?

[hollow bramble]

Playlist

[split oasis]

100 videos 😅

[hollow bramble]

Ah alright so about 25 hours

Good cool I will spend 2 hours each day and finish within 2 weeks

[split oasis]

Actually take some online course and use this as a dictionary of concepts.. try to watch one every day

[hollow bramble]

idont wanna pay because im not sure if im gonna have the will to finish ( i got school stuff to do)

[split oasis]

Then use this

[split oasis]

https://www.edx.org/course/c-procedural-programming-course-v1nyuxcppprg13t2020?utm_campaign=social-sharing-course-page&utm_medium=social&utm_source=email

Edx also has courses in (real world) robotics

Look at this https://www.edx.org/course/hello-real-world-with-ros-robot-operating-system-course-v1delftxros1x1t2021?utm_campaign=social-sharing-course-page&utm_medium=social&utm_source=email

It says you can use python but you need to use Ubuntu (Linux operating system) and need some knowledge in linear algebra

[sick trench]

Columbia used to offer AI courses (introduction, ML, computer vision and robotics) on edX

[near remnant]

would it be hard to transition to data analystics / visualization if I have experience with python, html, css, javascript, flask, postgresql, docker, excel a bit of tableau

[quartz igloo]

Yes I finally found a website to learn hacking it is TryHackMe if anyone else wants to follow

[ornate osprey]

any self developers in here, whats the best career path that you took

self taught*

[finite lark]

Absolutely

Python Shines the Most at Date Science, Machine Learning / ML, Deep Learning / DL, Neural Networks / NNs

and with Rasberry, so i don't see a reason to not go with Python

[graceful mason]

Honestly depends on the environment the robot needs to work in. For my experience developing embedded firmware for a real-time system we needed C (specifically QP/C) for the firmware, Java for the controller + testing simulation, and python for pipeline/build scripts.

C++ is also a very commonly used language, maybe less so for embedded applications compared to C.

The most important thing is that you just get started on learning the theory and fundamentals of robotics, since they can be used in any language, and having a go at developing systems that use them

[lost notch]

Industrial Robots have their own Programming Language, Depending on the Manufacturer. All are a subset of Lua.

If you want to start with Robotics, Id suggest to start with PLC programming, Ladder. You have to integrate the Robots into Machines which predominately run on PLC over several decades

Then choose a Brand of Robot Arm and learn their language. It is easier to learn them over Python and C++

If you’re planning to make your own Robot Arm.
You should be prepared for Mathematics and Physics - Kinematics.

You need your Robot Arm to have a repeatability of 0.01mm, So your Hardware needs to be well designed with well calculated factors of Moment of Inertia etc.

It is more than just programming, Python will not be able to run in industrial environments in real time.

C++ is the go to language for Robotics, with ROS.

AI ML Python frameworks are written in C++.

You’ll surely get there with Python for Hobby Projects, But won’t match the performance of Industrial Robots.

Now if you ask me if everyone that uses robot arm, knows all these ?

No, They program the robot with a Teach Pendant. You move the Robot Arm yourself and it records the coordinates and mocks it.

[lost notch]

. answer above

[livid moat]

is career discussion still going on in gen?

[peak halo]

it's okay if people want to talk about career stuff in pygen, but it's not likely to be a very good experience as compared to discussing it here.

[near ocean]

this isnt the appropriate channel for this, try #python-discussion

[wise spoke]

From experience in workplace. Would you say there is a shortage of programmers?

And what programing language is in short of.

[near remnant]

Im going to graduate next week and start applying, interviewing. Is it common to only be able to find the first job after 2-3 months from graduation?

[peak halo]

it took me a few months after graduating

[near remnant]

So I shouldnt feel bad if I can't get a job in a month, right?

[peak halo]

most of my classmates started searching a few months prior to graduating. but the first job hunt is hard.

[near remnant]

Im gonna have 3 interviews next week right after my final exam but I feel like im gonna bomb them all, im quite negative about it

I have referrals tho so fingers crossed😂

[peak halo]

I'll try to remember to come back later with tips.

[silver python]

I am in college and I am wondering of I should go into the cs field. I have no interest in cs besides I can make a living out of it. I am not very good at math or puzzles. Should I still consider it?

[true harness]

that sounds like a bad idea. you can try picking up programming on your own for a bit, to see if you like it

[smoky quest]

I would worry more about your lack of interest. No one is naturally born being great at something.
Going into a field just for the money is a great way to suffer for the next 40 years. So instead, I would rather suggest to explore the different subfields and areas. The field of software isn't just about writing code. There are many adjacent areas you may enjoy more

[smoky quest]

• Do some leetcode
• Be ready to dive and explain in details your projects
• Practice interviews with someone if you can
• Expect to bomb the first few interviews. That's how we all learn and also why it's suggested to start out with companies you don't care about

[sleek plaza]

Hey guys! I want to start learning python to get a job in developing. what questions should I be asking myself?

[dense mesa]

They're not subsets of Lua 😅

[dense mesa]

PLC programming isn't robotics, ladder logic isn't robotics

[dense mesa]

I agree that they should choose a brand and learn that language, but it is definitely more challenging than learning a mainstream language

[smoky quest]

• Do I enjoy developing?
• What's my local job market ? If it's not great, are I willing to move?
• What level am I ready to target? If I want a more interesting job, am I willing/able to go to college?

[smoky quest]

it's a good step towards it though.
Also some industrial robots have been built out of PLCs

[dense mesa]

Not everyone programs using a teach pendant, it's a fairly outdated and dangerous way to work, not to mention that you still have to fine tune the motion paths because of human error

[dense mesa]

For me personally, PLC is the next step up once you have your individual machines/automation programmed with their own paths and workflows, and now you need to synchronise/manage this across multiple lines

[sleek plaza]

Thank you

[candid dirge]

Hello Guys

New in Python Programming. What do I need to to care while learning it ?

[dense mesa]

This channel is for career discussion, if you need help getting started then try #python-discussion

[candid dirge]

Ok. Thank You

[near remnant]

Would it be a bad idea to take 3-4 months of break after graduation? I would like to do my driving licence and also grind leetcode. I'm about to graduate with my master's but I'm 25, i feel old as sh*t.

[honest pivot]

You're not old

[delicate bane]

if youre old, then im ancient

[vapid jay]

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[dense mesa]

If you've done 6 internships and are getting referrals for job offers, wouldn't it make sense to take those?

[smoky quest]

If you have to take a 3-4months break to full time leetcode after graduation, I fear that would underline some larger issue

[near ocean]

I think you should keep applying to jobs you'd like during that break, you dont have to grind out apps but look through your email alerts and send off apps to interesting ads

And take a break, theres nothing wrong with relaxing for a bit, go for a trip, do something fun
Nobody said you have to go straight into the workplace

[dense mesa]

At least in the UK you get a few months between uni finishing and starting usually

[near remnant]

I got an offer wtf

Just got an email.. I cant believe it lol what

[ivory sluice]

hey congrats!!

[near remnant]

Thank you. It sounds great, but I have a weird feeling. They said I would work remotely but they would rather like me to go to the office sometimes (long-term).

[dense mesa]

Is it paid?

[silver python]

Is anyone a software developer? Is it a difficult job? I’m in college and considering that.

Although I am not never good at math my entire life

I have a hard time focusing with adhd

[near remnant]

Yeah, its a full time, junior job

[signal quest]

I also have adhd but It's been brushed off by my parents and I'm starting taking medication soon so hopefully I can get better at maths

[brazen trail]

if you like to read and solve problems it's a great job

[blazing scroll]

Sup guys. I'm applying for undergraduate degree. Which subject should I go for?
BS Software engeneering
BSIT
BSCS
Or all of these are the same?

[brazen trail]

what do you want to do after college?

and I guess, what were your favorite courses in school so far?

[blazing scroll]

I really like to code, always wanted to be a professional software dev

[brazen trail]

I'd say software engineering then

you can always change your major in the first few years too, it's even easier when there's overlap like those three are going to have

[gilded valley]

We've talked about not taking an offer even after officially accepting in this channel before - here's an example of a company doing the exact same thing https://blog.coinbase.com/update-on-hiring-plans-bcedfa634989

they rescinded a bunch of offers that people had already accepted

[brazen trail]

shenanigans at a crypto company? I'm shocked 😉

[gilded valley]

I don't think this is particularly unique to a crypto company - if anything the thing that is unique is that they're more open about doing it by putting it on their blog

[violet bridge]

id like to peruse python as my career (something to do with coding in python) but unsure as to weather i need to have a degree in the uk in order to get a 80K+ job? id rather do an apprentership then go to uni

[gilded valley]

80,000 is a very exceptional salary, even in London, and you probably want a degree for that

things are slowly changing - apprenticeships are steadily becoming more common. But the few companies that are going to offer salaries of that calibre can be as picky as they want, so will often just arbitrarily require a degree for junior/mid-level staff

[violet bridge]

okay thank you i still have a few more years to make my choices

[gilded valley]

Wait and see what the job market is like when you're in years 11 and 13 to see if apprenticeships are a good option

[inner wren]

You are not allowed to use that command here. Please use the #bot-commands channel instead.

[near ocean]

Not just any degree, I would say
A red brick degree could get you 80k in your first couple of years as a dev

[dense mesa]

My TC is just shy of 80 for grad

[upper hare]

I wanna do cyber security

[upper hare]

year 13?????

[upper hare]

tax be like

[near ocean]

that doesnt matter when youre making 80k

80k means youre taking home 6k+ a month, even with taxes, youre doing better than 90% of the country

[delicate bane]

how do peeps determine what falls under NDAs or not? some podcasts i listen to, im like, 'hmm will you get in trouble for saying this?' or is it more like if your boss/leadership hears about it, then youll get in trouble

on a related note, how much are you allowed to put on a resume with respect to company work vs. stuff you need to leave off

[smoky quest]

that should be written down somewhere in some paper you signed

[delicate bane]

oof. okay let me go back and read the fine print

[smoky quest]

Unless you are working at apple, no one will care that you used java or python or whatever high level thing. They would care more if you start talking about the secret sauce

But a lot of things are open to interpretation on purpose.

[delicate bane]

i see, i see

[gilded valley]

80k != 6k take home /m. Even ignoring the higher rate band.

[smoky quest]

the rules I have been following are:

• I can talk about the goals of my team
• I can talk about the technologies in place
• I can talk about the impact we have had
• I can talk about the well known practices or processes
• I won't talk about the secret sauce that is specific

[near ocean]

Ah, i didnt mean take-home, silly mistake

But anyway, youre still going to live very comfortably

[delicate bane]

these are really good rules of thumb, thank you for sharing, recursive

[summer roost]

If you have ADHD and you are not yet on medication for it, you may find that medication is lifechanging. People I know with ADHD have said that medication has made a huge difference to their quality of life.

[summer roost]

Computer science has a lot of abstract math, but the day to day job of an average software developer doesn't require much math.

[summer roost]

As a basic rule of thumb: if a competitor would benefit from learning about something, don't put that thing on a resume.

[brazen trail]

speaking of resumes, it's good practice to look at yours every few months and see if there's anything you need to add... it can be hard to think of all the cool stuff you did a few years later when you decide to find a new job

[balmy spade]

In the flavour of good ideas like keeping your resume up to date. Start keeping a brag sheet too. Never too soon for it. Did something cool, put it on the sheet. Learned something, put it on the sheet. Time, date, quick summary of what, and that's all ya need. Maybe a link/image to related elements.

Brag sheets are awesome for level setting on what you've accomplished.

[feral igloo]

@summer roost hello, sorry for pinging. You seem like the right person to ask. I just recently found out an interesting sites for learning Hacking. I would like to know if these—TryHackMe and Hack the Box be a good start for a complete beginner. I want to recommend it to my little brother.

[crimson pilot]

I am BS in Computer Science and Engineering

[dense mesa]

@crimson pilot recrutement is not allowed, please delete this. If you need help looking for work, there are links in this channel's description on where to find jobs

[gilded wedge]

hey guys

what tech should i learn first to increase my chances of getting internship

[crimson pilot]

where can I start?\

I started my career with programming, coding and then teaching.I know many languages.

I was always topper of my class

[dense mesa]

Depends what internship you want

[stoic steeple]

guys do data scientists use excel

[dense mesa]

Yes

[crimson pilot]

now what can i concentrate on ? any suggestion from you?

[gilded valley]

Not as a primary, or even important, tool, no

There will be some people with the job title Data Scientist using it a lot, but they're really just Data Analysts

[dense mesa]

<@&831776746206265384>

[dense mesa]

If you can explain your goals then that would be helpful

[crimson pilot]

developing something that sells in the market

[dense mesa]

Can you be more specific? What kind of product, what kind of market, what kind of developing?

[gilded wedge]

for example if i want somewhere in research
or web dev

[crimson pilot]

image recognition

[earnest fiber]

.

[crimson pilot]

for work which fields are hot?

in python

[analog sun]

Data Science, Machine Learning, web backend are the ones that I have off the top of my head

[crimson pilot]

yes

[analog sun]

!ban 767278536662712320 pride troll

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @languid summit permanently.

[sharp thunder]

Has anyone ever left a contract job early just cause it wasn’t how you expected it to be?

[shadow mountain]

nop

[dense mesa]

It's possible but you need to look over your signed contract and see what your rights are. I am not a lawyer and am not providing this as advice, you should get a proper lawyer if looking to do this

[crude dawn]

Hi brother and sister, I'm currently studying bachelor of computer science degree.After the graduation its worth to learn master degree or not. please give me any suggestions.

[delicate bane]

that is highly context specific and depends on your career goals

[peak halo]

if you have goals that specifically require a masters degree, then yes. otherwise, it depends on what influence a masters degree would have on your career prospects, and if that's worth waiting an additional 2+ years to enter industry.

[simple terrace]

Hi i am 16 years old(i know i am very young) and currently studying in class 12th....i am a little confused regarding my career which i want to build in IT sector. Now IT is a vast field and i am confused what to choose. If you ask about my interest, i am interested in just CODING and not a particular option. So can somebody help me on how to choose what to do?

[pastel thunder]

prof x said he has too many student and i should check his colleague prof y, prof k, prof g, and prof c

is i then write email to prof y k g and c. should i mention that x recommended me to go to them

if so, waht should i write to prevent them from feeling like prof y k g and c werent my first choice for emailing

^i am also laughing

But just answer

[split oasis]

Yeah, easy. Explore~

When you are unsure, you need to go to college

take classes from as many different fields as you can and apply for internships

Don't limit your options unless you are sure of what you want

[split oasis]

Don't say you were recommended... Just tell them that you would like to work with them. Ask them in what projects you could work with them. Go in order of preference, don't ask all of them at once.

It's kinda like asking someone to be your dad. They won't be your dad just because you asked a friend of them first and he couldn't take you. Also, they won't take you just because you are looking for a dad. Tell them you want them to be your dad and ask what kind of son they would like to have (what kind of projects they would like to work with with a son)... It's weird to think in this way but I've done research 3 times with professors and it really is like this in the end anyways 😂

[delicate bane]

bruh

what is this metaphor

[split oasis]

😂 It's cool right? (?

[delicate bane]

[crude dawn]

Thank you.

[peak halo]

it's pretty unrealistic to expect you to know how you'd want to spend a 30+ year long career at 16 years old. if you enroll in a computer science degree program when you're 18, you'd probably have an additional two years to decide what sort of programming-related career you'd like to pursue.

[snow pewter]

hello

Im a shit sandwich at coding just started to learn python today im trying to code a discord bot can anyone here help

[ivory sluice]

hello, welcome.
check out our channels #python-discussion, #❓｜how-to-get-help and #discord-bots
discord bot is a doable first project, but do prepare yourself to struggle if you are on day 1 of python

i would highly recommend spending some time getting basics/foundations down, with the goal of a discord bot in mind. but i would recommend you prep yourself via some very simple projects and build up to it

[snow pewter]

I know some basics because im pretty good at pine editor on tradingview so I have a ok understanding of code but im not sure if what im trying to do is possible Im trying to create a bot that will let people use my tradingview sub. . .I want them to post a command. . .then the bot changes the ticker if needed and makes a copy of the link (photo)

[ivory sluice]

a good question for the channels i mentioned above, but not here (career-discussion)

[snow pewter]

ok

[vapid jay]

Hello Everyone

[pastel thunder]

Is getting them for research harder then project

[kind notch]

Hai my name is Teddy How much knowledge in python I need to get a job?

[pastel thunder]

which domain

in general depends, for majority of SDE getting expert in DSA is the key, plus some OS and DBMS.

[kind notch]

I am beginner in programming languages, for beginner which area of python development I should concentrate.

What about django

Developer

[dense moth]

I want to do coding because I like to see the result of my project, but I wonder between computer programming and game development, Which one of them would be the better pick?

[smoky quest]

better in terms of what?

[pastel thunder]

as i said there are multiple domains, for knowing what type of skill you need, you should try searching "types of cs jobs"

then take that "job" and look for its pre requisite/ skills

[crimson pilot]

web related jobs will always be on top

[frozen flame]

I've been trying to find/apply to some internships these past few months but I'm kind of lost on what to put on a resume. All I have under my belt are school projects and a cyber sec competition. My school counselor's are kinda lost when I consulted them (one asked "What exactly is Python?")....Anyway - does anyone have good advice or resources for what I should put on my resume or should I get some personal projects going before I start?

[red pagoda]

yall know upwork , fiverr and such freelancing platforms right
if i practice python for 6-7 already know the basics and like 5 hours a day
im i suitable to start freelancing?

[smoky quest]

It's quite difficult to give you a real answer.
the main thing is: are people willing to actually pay for your services?
And for that, there is nothing better than a trial by fire

[smoky quest]

It totally depends on the target.
It may be helpful for you to post your resume?

[red pagoda]

uhm just visit the web
they are calling out for people

its mostly involves ai
telegram bot making
problem solving and such

[smoky quest]

so can you do any of them?

also note that most these don't really sound like a great career. More like surviving

[crimson pilot]

how difficult it is to build a selfaware neural network?

[smoky quest]

it doesn't exist nowadays. So that should give you some clue.
Also it has nothing to do with the topic of this channel

[crimson pilot]

ai mentioned

why are you tending to be repulsive

[smoky quest]

I am repulsive to irrelevant topics to this channel

[crimson pilot]

how is it irrelevant?

[smoky quest]

you are welcome to ask your question(s) to a more relevant channel

[smoky quest]

As such, it has nothing to do with the topic of this channel

[red pagoda]

i only know the basics. u think 6-7 months can do anything?

[smoky quest]

it could. At the very least, you would gain 6-7months worth of knowledge and experience.
But let's back track a bit. Where are you at and what's your goal?

[red pagoda]

python is my main language. i chose that so i wanna be a master in it
be able to make web apps , machine learning , data structure and algorithm, django,pygame. yah thats my goal . where im i at uh lvl 1 i would say. like lists tuples if function class iterables there im good at it

[smoky quest]

but like, are you in high school or college?
Any plans for a degree?

[red pagoda]

high school grad next year

[smoky quest]

so aiming for a CS degree?

[red pagoda]

oh yeah bsc msc

[smoky quest]

so basically looking for a side gig?

[red pagoda]

i heard different college teaches different languages

[red pagoda]

they say learn it by real life problems

[smoky quest]

it's right AND wrong at the same time. Like you won't learn to architect a house by mixing cement

My general advice is the following:

• Have fun and learn things. So explore the world of CS and make websites, webapps, backend, frontend, build robots or even play with blender to make 3d movies! The goal is to see what is out there, how they fit together and build a culture of CS
• Make sure you work on your grades to get whatever grades you need to get into the university/college of your choice

For a great career, a CS degree is a must have, so don't try to skimp on it

Not just because of the paper, but because it will open your mind and create many opportunities

[red pagoda]

btw freelancing by making websites. is that a tight place or no one wants em? is that a good idea?

[smoky quest]

you would be in competition with folks in india/vietnam who can charge a lot less than it's worth to someone in US/EU

[red pagoda]

what do you think is a minimum price for uh say a personal web

[smoky quest]

and for your career, the type of work wouldn't really be that worth it anyway

[red pagoda]

really ? so its a bad choice then

[smoky quest]

it's a bad analogy, but it's like doing the dishes when trying to learn fine cuisine

Sure it's useful in the grand scheme of things, but that's not really interesting nor high value

[red pagoda]

u didn't said the value yet

[smoky quest]

no one is gonna pay you the big bucks or have a high level career for a wordpress setup

[red pagoda]

what are we saying 10$?
5$?

what about pygame

[smoky quest]

it could get pretty specific but you could expect below minimum wage

[red pagoda]

anyone wants game?

[smoky quest]

try to think about the cases where someone would be willing to pay for something with pygame 😉

[red pagoda]

whats the minimum wage

[smoky quest]

google "<your country> minimum wage"

[red pagoda]

i could make a bday present like a tiktaktoe game with the players head

people would pay for it i think so

[summer roost]

How much would you be willing to pay for someone to build that for you?

[smoky quest]

That could be a marketing problem, but if that was the case, there would be a lot more of them 😉

[red pagoda]

10$ for sure

[red pagoda]

its all negative isn't it

[smoky quest]

it's an opportunity
It sounds like a business idea. And like all business ideas, you should validate them before sinking too much time into it. But if it works, you have a whole market of customized tictactoe games ahead of you

(and if it doesn't, you could learn something about businesses and have wasted time/money on it, which is an investment in itself)

[red pagoda]

yup its negative

a 17 year old can't do a lots thinks.
i don't think theres enough opportunities

[hidden garden]

anyone know how to fix it ?

[smoky quest]

you would be surprised

[smoky quest]

Hi! This has nothing to do with the topic of this channel.
You would have more chance of an answer by checking out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[red pagoda]

is there?

[smoky quest]

there is

[red pagoda]

programming could go two ways freelance, actual job

ur telling me there no hope in freelancing. companies asks for exp. what am i supposed to show them?

my own problems whichs answers i already know?

i think thats why self taught suffer after getting a job

[smoky quest]

The main advice: "get a fucking degree like a bs"

[red pagoda]

yeah dude degree . u think thats the ultimate answer

[smoky quest]

freelancing is a different world as you have to find your own client. In addition you have to find work worthy enough of your time. And companies who hire freelancer/consultant do it for specific benefits and trade offs

[smoky quest]

it is. Too many people forget that it is the answer

[red pagoda]

everyone literally everyone says practice . tutorials are not getting u anywhere

[smoky quest]

If that's easy, then how come they don't have a degree?

[red pagoda]

other then degree u need skill right

where does that come from

[summer roost]

College.

[smoky quest]

You are correct!
The best folks would tend to have both the theory and fundamentals in addition to the expertise and experience to back it up

[smoky quest]

side projects. Use the school the acquire the ideas and theory and apply them

[red pagoda]

side projects exactly

[summer roost]

Software development isn't like professional sports. It's something that nearly anyone can do. Don't underestimate the value of education in giving you the skills and knowledge that you need for a job.

[smoky quest]

Companies have plenty of applicants for code monkeys. Finding someone who understands what is going on is a lot more valuable

[red pagoda]

im not talking about job

its more about mastering python

[summer roost]

Why do you want to master Python?

[smoky quest]

I am great at bad analogies but it's like saying "I am great at using screwdrivers"

[red pagoda]

to master python

[red pagoda]

the better the knowledge the better the skill

[smoky quest]

Companies won't hire you because you know python. Companies will hire you because of what you can produce or the problems you can solve

[red pagoda]

that what im saying as well

[smoky quest]

so in that context, python is a tool, not an end in itself

[red pagoda]

mastering python doesn't mean completing tutorials ofc

[summer roost]

Most people never master cooking, or driving a car. They practice it until they reach an acceptable level of skill where they can easily accomplish the tasks that they need to do, and then they move on to learning and doing other things.

Mastery isn't particularly valuable, in and of itself.

[smoky quest]

When I hire someone, I would hire someone able to deliver X, Y Z. Be it frontend, some ML applications or specific outcome. I don't care if they use python or java or whatever

[smoky quest]

Which is why I like the "cooking for geeks" book. It does explain why things are happening the way they do rather than just a list of recipes to follow :p

[red pagoda]

dude if i get to know the real job by freelancing actual stuff would only improve right

[summer roost]

The overwhelming majority of jobs require expertise, but not mastery. You can learn maybe 75% of the Python language and find that that's enough to build almost anything you could ever want to build.

[smoky quest]

but but it goes to contrast the learning by pure repetition comparing to the learning by understanding

[summer roost]

Learning that remaining 25% has rapidly diminishing return on investment.

[rustic schooner]

Probably will check it out, thanks!

[smoky quest]

The people who freelance fill in different needs than the people hired as employees.

There are also different constraints as you can't treat them the same from an employer's perspective

[red pagoda]

making a webapp or solving problems isn't

[red pagoda]

yup exactly so it is a good idea as well

[smoky quest]

no it isn't.
A freelancer is hired to deliver X and gtfo. There isn't any follow up or maintenance for instance. which means they don't care how the code holds up. Which means as long they deliver ASAP, they don't care.

In terms of management, you don't have regular 1-1 with contractors, which means they don't get much coaching or anything.

Not saying it's good or bad, but it's different

[red pagoda]

does give you experience

@summer roost i would really appreciate if u don't interfere

[smoky quest]

Sure but how does that link back to the initial question?

[red pagoda]

experience improves skill
skill is it all about

[smoky quest]

fyi, @ godlygeek is one of the most experienced, knowledgeable and reasonable person in this channel. I would definitely welcome their thoughts

[red pagoda]

he/she is literally saying ur right

[summer roost]

Yes. Working at McDonald's gives you restaurant experience, too, but it's not particularly useful experience if your goal is to become a Michelin star chef. It's not worthless, and it definitely teaches you some skills that you'd need as a fine dining chef, but most of the work wouldn't be very relevant, and keeping that McDonald's job any longer than a few months would just be taking up valuable time that you could be putting to better use to learn more directly applicable skills.

[red pagoda]

like copycats

[smoky quest]

If multiple people with professional experience give you similar advice, maybe there is something to it 😉

[summer roost]

Sure, we both have similar perspectives. We're both older working professionals who've been through college and can analyze the pros and cons.

[red pagoda]

directly applicable skill won't pay tho

[crimson pilot]

isnt there a place where there is work finding discussion

thats my goal

[summer roost]

Advice about how to find a job is on topic here, but we don't have any place in this server for job advertisements

[smoky quest]

If you are asking about job ads, we don't do it here. But we are more than happy having discussions about careers in generals

[crimson pilot]

ok then

@summer roost

[summer roost]

if you need money right now, do what you've gotta do. Just know that the freelancers who make web sites are much less well compensated than the employees who make web sites, and the employees who make web sites tend to be less well compensated than the employees who builds services and backends. recursive is right that an inexperienced freelancer with no network is likely to make less than minimum wage for the first year or so.

[red pagoda]

and thats how u build experience

[smoky quest]

One last parting advice or two:

• Try to think about what you knew 4 years ago comparing to now. Now try to project that to the next 4 years if you were to spend your entire time in a CS degree. That would bring so much to your knowledge and experience!
• As someone hiring people, 99 people out of 100 candidates would have a CS degree. That's the market today. Short of solving wold hunger, you won't stand out without a degree and thus would end up at the bottom of the pile.

[summer roost]

Well, sure, it's one way. I just don't think it's the best way.

[red pagoda]

when company ask for exp that exp is what they mean right

[summer roost]

They meant a history of doing similar work to what they're hiring you to do, or a degree in a related field.

[red pagoda]

ofc i will take cs degree. freelancing withit won't hurt and is a not the baddest choice either right

[crimson pilot]

I got a bs in cs also a ms in related subject

[smoky quest]

When people are hiring grads/entry level, they aren't looking for deep expertise. They are looking for potential. That means someone who knows the fundamentals and has the chops to grow.

[red pagoda]

freelancing isn't ?

[summer roost]

It may or may not be.

Depends on the job they'd be hiring you to do

[red pagoda]

till i know the jobs i saw on upwork are not anyway near easy

[smoky quest]

to be honest, that would not be the best choice if money is not a hard constraint. Focusing on contracts means you have to worry about a lot of things that aren't relevant to the topics you care about or core to the skills you would be hire ford. You could get more value out of working for starbucks for the $$ and having side projects of your choosing

[summer roost]

I'm general, web development jobs tend to have relatively lower pay than the rest of the industry. You'd do well to aim higher.

[smoky quest]

The best case would be to find a part time job in a great company with a pretty interesting job who would be relevant to your career. It does exist and did hire students like that before, but it's like unicorns

[red pagoda]

i chose what im good at
doing so won't give me new knowledge
if its for money i would atleast get into it

[red pagoda]

unicorn?

[smoky quest]

I am not judging what people are doing. I am just making the trade offs explicit

[smoky quest]

unicorn == it's very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very rare

[red pagoda]

like internship?

[smoky quest]

even more rare

[red pagoda]

even they are asking for bsc

[summer roost]

Coding things you're already good at won't give you new experience. Coding things that you aren't yet good at will mean that you'll find it's difficult to sell that work to others.

[red pagoda]

i would get good at it at the same time

[summer roost]

Probably not. At least, not in a way that's cost effective.

[smoky quest]

It's up to you. There is no right or wrong answer
Some things to keep in mind:

• Having some work xp can be interesting to see how things work
• You are still young and enjoying your summer can be valuable

Regardless of what you choose, you can still have side projects 😉

[red pagoda]

harder the problem more the money more we be willing to do

[smoky quest]

I am not trying to be mean, but at 17, I doubt you have the skills nor knowledge to tackle that level of complexity

[red pagoda]

one step at a time

[smoky quest]

(but in abstract, I agree with you)

[red pagoda]

thats why i said 6-7 month of prac

[smoky quest]

just for context, it takes 3-5 years for a basic degree, another 3-5 years for senior level

[summer roost]

That's not what I'm cautioning you about. I'm telling you that the effort you put into hunting down clients, managing client expectations, scoping work, determining if you'll be able to deliver the client's project, learning any skills you don't already have that are necessary for the project, then (hopefully) building and delivering the project has a lot of steps in it that don't give relevant experience.

[red pagoda]

not everything is that complex

[smoky quest]

then they aren't building a high level career nor creating worthy outcomes 😉

[red pagoda]

infact could give a big headache ur right

[rustic schooner]

Thank you, you (and some others) honestly made this chat a goldmine in helping me figure things out :)

[summer roost]

Actually writing the code is a smaller part of freelancing than all of that other stuff

[red pagoda]

it takes max 6 month to learn to make a interactive website

[smoky quest]

to be honest, I totally get the dilemma.
On one hand you want to get get some pro xp to build your resume and see how it works. On the other hand, it's one of your last summer. Once you get into the active life, you will be stuck for 40 years.

[smoky quest]

Any code monkey can do that. I wouldn't pay them 6 figures for that

[red pagoda]

no one asked for 6 figures

[smoky quest]

That's what every new grad is asking though (and more)

[red pagoda]

well atleast not me ig

[smoky quest]

and that's fair!
But again, it won't lead to the same career or type of work

[red pagoda]

just tell me if people want websites and webapps and freelancers

[summer roost]

Well, why not? Why aim low?

[red pagoda]

come on everyone likes it cheap

thats my main quote when im freelancing

[summer roost]

The jobs that recursive and I are trying to steer you towards are jobs that don't come cheap. Where the fair costs of labor are in the six figure range.

[smoky quest]

That's not the point of @ godlygeek though.
Their point is more about the point of closing the doors to many opportunities to yourself. Why restricting yourself to a 5 figure career when you could start on your first job with a 6 figure job and a more interesting career/jobs?

Again, I am still at bad analogies, but we are down to comparing picking trashes to being an architect for a new fancy high rise building

[red pagoda]

imagine a beginner asking for 6 fig. ofc im not gonna get clients

[smoky quest]

they don't get paid the same and they don't get to face the same challenges

[smoky quest]

you wouldn't without the proper degree and experience. Why pay more for less?

[red pagoda]

u should try poetry

[red pagoda]

u would pay less for more tho

[smoky quest]

for the safekeeping of the world, it's better to keep my poetry skills to myself

[smoky quest]

I can guarantee you that I will totally low ball anyone without a degree

[red pagoda]

say u told me to make a web i build it u liked it then i asked for less. that could be a thing

[summer roost]

Because of this , you would both get paid more and acquire useful skills faster if you spent 10 hours a week working at a fast food restaurant and 10 hours a week coding side projects than if you were to spend 20 hours a week freelancing. In fact, because of all of these extra time sinks, it's very likely that your 20 hours per week of freelancing would include less than 10 hours of learning software dev skills and writing code, because of all the extra client management time.

[red pagoda]

i get it yeah ty

[smoky quest]

That would not even matter.
The starting price would be super low. For instance, like 100$. So cool, you can get it for 80$.
Now, the type of jobs that I and @ godlygeek are talking about would be worth 10,000$.

There is a say for that: penny wise, pounds foolish

I can also tell you stories of friends I have that have been through freelancing. Their tl;dr is: never again

[red pagoda]

if i could build it then?

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't pay 10k$ for a website in the first place. Different jobs

To build a stupid website, I am gonna get a student for their summer job

To build the next billion dollar business, I am gonna call someone else

[red pagoda]

freelancing is bad and good at the same time. its very better if u don't spend too much time and don't depend on it

right

[smoky quest]

Right now, you are positioning yourself to get stuck into that student's job

Freelancing/contractor is great if you have a unique skill and an established set of clients

But that won't come after a few years

All the stuff you see on fiverr or upworks is just a race to the bottom. Not something you would build a great career on

[summer roost]

People who know COBOL are making a killing as freelancers right now, for instance, because it's such a rare skill that they can charge a fortune for relatively small amounts of work

[red pagoda]

cobol?

[summer roost]

A language that was used very heavily in the 1970s, and very little since then.

Because it's practically a dead language, few people know it, and because few people know it, the ones who do can charge a lot to make small changes to existing COBOL programs

[peak halo]

The IRS has entered the chat

[red pagoda]

alr freelancing is not good for me thanks

[summer roost]

Pretty much no one learns COBOL anymore, and the only people who know it are the semi retired people who worked on COBOL systems in the 80s and 90s.

[smoky quest]

so again:

• Focus on your 40 years career. Not your summer job
• Aim for a CS degree, at least a BS and make sure you have the grades to get into it
• Expand your knowledge of CS and have fun building random projects!

That's the type of things that enables people to talk about retirement before they hit their 40s

People who try to save on a degree would typically end up earning a lot less and not even being able to think about retirement at all until much later

[summer roost]

I definitely do agree with you that you'll learn and retain much more by building projects than following tutorials

[red pagoda]

i wasn the guy tho @crimson pilot

[smoky quest]

I was aiming at you given the discussion on freelancing

[summer roost]

A huge part of programming is getting stuck, over and over again, and learning how to unstick yourself a little bit faster next time. Without projects you don't build that skill.

Even simple things like learning to read error messages is something that only comes with practice.

[red pagoda]

ty

[dense mesa]

That was an interesting read

[drowsy tendon]

im a cbse 12th student, studying in the uae, what colleges should i get into for computer science

im an indian too btw

[wise pendant]

cs degrees are over rated in my opinion

[timber pollen]

A good CS degree can launch you though

Especially from a good school

[near ocean]

This is a bad opinion, we've had this discussion a lot of times in this channel, maybe we should pin something if we havent already

[gilded valley]

Imo a better solution is a blog post or similar with multiple opinions. No one take can cover the range of opinions

[near ocean]

Does pydis have a blog up

[gilded valley]

No, but they have a website. It could just be a one off page on there

[hollow pendant]

Hey there,
i was wondering if you folks could give me some advice. Currently i am applying for a Technologist Presales position in which i will deliver the technology, security, and regulatory aspects of the companies SaaS cloud based product to a technical audience (CTOs etc.). I aced the screen and the follow-up interview. Now for my last interview, i am asked to give a 15 min technology presentation about a topic of my choosing. The products of the company are all subscription cloud based SaaS offerings, so i was thinking of choosing a topic along those lines. Do you have any suggestion for a great topic? Your help is much appreciated.

[gritty rivet]

I don't know if things work differently in UAE or India but as a general rule I would say this is a question to discuss with a professional guidance counselor at your school.

[pastel thunder]

from what i know many counsellor actually have great wisdom, if you get out of the CS terminology and ask them how to get more opportunity in generic term, they will certainly propose an interesting path for you to test. it may not be the best but will certainly give you direction.

i mean sometimes generic advice works

just ask them in those terms

[delicate bane]

a link to a blog post like you said would be good

[raven bluff]

I have an interview on monday for a taught full-stack dev role. It's low pay, but fully taught. I've passed a mathematical reasoning test and a basic CV check, but has anyone got any tips for the interview, or had experience of these sorts of things?

I know they'll be testing my python in at least some capacity, so I've been reviewing the basics, spending my free time writing simple apps, and doing leetcode questions. Is there anything else in should be doing?

[ivory sluice]

we actually do have a blog on top of the website but it isn't very active

i personally think the conversation form suits this topic best. hearing advice directed specifically at me is very different from reading a pre-written article

[delicate bane]

agreed but its not scalable

[gilded valley]

It's a question that gets asked repeatedly, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect a repeat of the discussion every time and I don't think the format of reading through past conversations is at all good

[crude moon]

My tip is be really positive and ask lots of questions that make you seem very keen about the role. Admit if you dont know something, dont try and wing an answer. Learn about the company if you can. Ask how work is created, ie what is the process, how they build things. If you have two rounds, when they ask do you have questions, dont say ive already asked the previous person

[peak halo]

What job do you have currently, and how did you arrive at this opinion?

[peak halo]

I don't really mind rehashing the same points

[peak halo]

Monday isn't very far away, so it's unlikely that any cramming you do before then will make a difference. If they'll be asking behavioral questions, I would review those instead

[delicate bane]

this is why youre saint stel

[vapid jay]

No it's not overrated and can launch your career hard, I just don't think it's necessary tho

[frozen flame]

just upload the pdf or whatever? I def see what ya mean by depends on the target as it should be tailored to each posting. it also kinda gets me thinking about the issue I have tho: I don't have much to put on it to begin with...especially as far as like "actions I've taken"

[dark arrow]

!otn a st. elercus

[inner wren]

Bad argument

Channel name must only consist of alphanumeric characters, minus signs or apostrophes.

[peak halo]

!otn s pope

[inner wren]

Query results

• pope-mod-man-btw-enters-the-chat
• prolem-runing-compoper
• 𝖯ope-𝖲telercus-𝖵𝖨𝖨𝖨

[proven crest]

Is it ok to include programs that break TOS in portfolio?

Or is this frowned upon in software dev

[dense mesa]

Don't

[smoky quest]

yeah.
as a student, you should have enough to fill up a page.
Resumes mostly come down to education, experience, skills and whatever you think would increase your chances of being noticed

[gilded valley]

Depends on the specific ToS and project

[delicate bane]

[sharp latch]

yes it's fine, everything depends on phrasing though. You could write you hacked into NASA if you wanted to, you simply have to word it properly and it'll come off as good experience

[gilded valley]

I would not put a scalping bot on my CV, but would happily mention projects that involve web scraping if said scraping wasn't for personal monetary gain

[smoky quest]

Always ask yourself:

• Does it create any legal risk for myself?
• How could it be perceived from the other side? What would they learn from it? For instance, would they be learning you could easily put your future employer at legal risk or that you cannot be trusted with access to production?

[undone willow]

Is it ok to use the word "CRUD" on projects in your resume? Or do you want to avoid that word even if many jobs use that idea for there projects.

[vapid jay]

Hello everyone! I am confused about picking a major in university I am stuck in between doing Bachelors in Data Science and Bachelors in Computer Science, while there are many fields that I am interested in. Now I am scared that if I choose BS in data Science that I will be bound to that individual field but If I do BSCS then I can major in any field. Any guidance on this matter would be very appreciated.

[gilded valley]

The TOS is a pydis/discord specific test. I've not heard of that being an important consideration in the real world, how it benefits you and how it affects their business model/revenue matter far more

[smoky quest]

I would expect people looking at a resume to know about it.

[summer roost]

I agree, but CRUD has a connotation of "basic", I think

I don't think it's bad to use CRUD, but I'm betting you could come up with some other description that sounds more impressive.

[undone willow]

I was thining of using CRUD as a way to help introduce what I know at a summary/intorduction about myself. Then have seprate lists for projects and skills that I know of. But the word has negative connotations (I think) and so I wasn't sure.

[summer roost]

I'd avoid it because of those negative connotations.

[summer roost]

Your goal with a resume is to advertise yourself, so anything that you put on it should be something that you think paints yourself in a good light. Illegal or TOS breaking stuff isn't likely to do that, at least in general. Of course not every illegal or TOS breaking project is equally bad, but there's always a chance that the person reading your resume sees that project and gets a bad impression of you because of it.

[proven crest]

mhm I understand that

But breaking TOS, its nothin really illegal, just going beyond the limitations of APIs

[summer roost]

Depending on the country and the laws, that may be illegal.

Under the laws that govern servers hosted in the US, for instance, it would almost certainly be a violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.

[smoky quest]

fyi, that type of answer in an interview would make you look pretty bad

[proven crest]

by breaking*

[smoky quest]

As someone hiring people, what I would hear from that message is that if you are trivializing breaking a simple tos, then what else can you do? And that would also indicate me you are prone to looking for excuses

Which goes back to being careful about how you want to be perceived

[proven crest]

Well if it was an interview you'd see the program and its function

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't want to. You have failed on the grounds of lack of ethics and trust

[proven crest]

Mhmm fair enough, I'll keep it out

[gilded valley]

This is absolutely not the case

[proven crest]

Surely not

For example web scraping on IG beyond the scope of what their official API allows which is extremely limited

[smoky quest]

In terms of hiring, it's a lot more risky to hire a potentially risky person than pass on a potentially great person. So the hiring managers will always play it safe by rejecting candidates if there is any doubt

[proven crest]

By doing so you can create a program for lead generation which would be extremely valuable to marketing platforms that use IG since they base their ICP on insta stats

[summer roost]

yep, that's an example of something that would violate the CFAA. In general, getting someone else's computer to do anything that they didn't want to allow you to do violates the CFAA.

[gilded valley]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiQ_Labs_v._LinkedIn

The supreme court is currently dealing with whether or not web scraping outside of ToS is legal. It is not a clear cut thing.

[proven crest]

Looks like its very gray atm then

[summer roost]

the supreme court also tends to make, as a matter of policy, very narrow rulings, as well. Whatever they decide in the HiQ vs LinkedIn case may not have much of an impact on whether you scraping Instagram is legal or not, depending upon what grounds they base their decision on.

[smoky quest]

In terms of career, being right and wanting to die that hill are two different things. Especially if it creates some legal exposure

[gilded valley]

Saying something is almost certainly against the CFAA when it's currently up in the air seems to be oversimplifying things.

[summer roost]

it's up in the air because SCOTUS is leaning in the direction of it being illegal

[gilded valley]

Agreed.

[summer roost]

the Ninth Circuit ruled that it wasn't illegal, and then SCOTUS vacated that decision and remanded the case for further review

I mean, you're right that it's not entirely decided, but the reason that it's not entirely decided is that the supreme court chose not to let the lower court ruling that says that it isn't illegal stand.

regardless, it's not entirely a question of whether it's illegal or not, anyway. If you were to apply to Instagram and you included your Instagram scraping bot on your resume, they probably wouldn't like it. But it's entirely possible that companies that are in some way similar to Instagram wouldn't like it, either. Maybe it's a company that publishes news stories on the web, and doesn't like the idea of scrapers because they bypass their ads. Scrapers aren't particularly technically interesting, and lots of companies don't like them, so I think they're a particularly poor project to include on a resume.

[gilded valley]

No, but if you're applying for something like a data engineering job, then having a project that is a complete pipeline of e.g scraping music metadata, storing said metadata, and then running a clustering algorithm on them would be a great portfolio project - regardless of the TOS breaking

[summer roost]

perhaps. Data engineering is out of my wheelhouse.

[smoky quest]

it depends how it's presented and how one answers questions about the origin of the data.
Having someone introduce some unlicensed data/code into the company's IP is a great way to screw up things

But I could construct hypothetical cases in either way

Some candidates do have a complete lack of self awareness.

[summer roost]

what makes you suspicious?

[smoky quest]

It's certainly unorthodox but it could happen.
That said, right now you haven't had an offer yet as they only asked if you are interested to go through an interview.

But it sounds like you are doing the right things by checking and validating their info.
A few more notes:

• Continue to verify their information
• Don't give out your SSN
• If they ask you to pay for anything, that's definitely a scam
• There is no harm in continuing the discussion with them and go through the interview and understanding better what would be you role

[smoky quest]

Hi!
Any question or comment?

[proven crest]

@smoky quest Also just thought I'd say I'm quite new to python, still very much in the learning stage. I have a full time job completely unrelated to programming as a partnership manager. My company is struggling with leads at the moment. They recently acquired a bulk amount of leads however the vast majority are unqualified and its talking the sales teams a very long time to go through them, in my own time, as a challenge, I started writing this program to automate the process. I would love a job in programming, probably in software dev and was curious if this would be one I could put in my portfolio as its the first one I created with a solid, real world use case.

I think I'm still pretty far from even being able to apply to any jobs.

Since you're a recruiter, when will I know I'm ready and have the skillset to start applying for jobs? I don't have a related degree and my programming is self taught.

Would it be worth getting a degree in comp sci? If I could avoid that I would like to as its 3 years long and will cost a fair amount (not too concerned with the cost, mostly the 3 years it would take, longer actually since it would only be part time)

I'm currently doing a python course that I can also take tests for at the end to acquire python institute certifications. Are those worth having or is the knowledge enough?

What do employers and recruiters want to see when I'm looking for my first job?

Lastly, whats the bare minimum for a very entry level job? I believe these are referred to as 'code monkeys'? I think any job in programming will help me learn as I'd be spending the bulk of my day doing programming and can continue my own education after work as I am now.

I know this was a big load of text, but thank you for your time if you can answer!

[honest pivot]

If any job actually refers to you as a "code monkey", don't take it.

[delicate bane]

big red flag

[proven crest]

If I'm honest I wouldn't want to include this in my portfolio, it works but the code looks like junk

[honest pivot]

If it's your only project, then that's tricky. But if it's code for work, you probably can't share it anyway, right?

I can say, as someone who looks at CVs and does first round interviews at my company, the overwhelming majority of GitHub links I've seen were not worth putting on a CV.

[near ocean]

fix it up and put it on your cv? part of software development is refactoring

[honest pivot]

Yeah, this is a good idea, also it can show that you learned something about best practices

[proven crest]

I made it outside of work without any of their resources,

Without being told to make it either, I just made it based on the need I saw we had

[honest pivot]

ok, that's usable, then. But definitely think about cleaning it up, and also making sure that whatever version of it you share is not accidentally showing any confidential company information.

[proven crest]

I am planning on refining it, perhaps making a GUI for it to be used easily

Perhaps then I could host it online and the code won't be seen, but the functionality will. Would that be a bad idea?

[honest pivot]

It's up to you what you want to add to it, but of course there's always a balance between having something you can show now vs how long it might take for you to learn how to implement the features you want to add, and then actually write them.

At the same time, I guess you're still learning programming. It's hard to guess what value a CS degree would have for you, because you already have a degree in something else, right? And you are already in a professional job. I think I don't have any useful advice for this situation.

[proven crest]

As I said above, I think im a long way from applying for dev jobs at the moment anyway, this is somthing I can see myself working on, refining, improving, adding new features to etc for months to come

[honest pivot]

Check in the pins for some information about career roadmaps, I think this will help you plan out your learning in terms of what is most important to get you into something.

[coarse wharf]

Hello. I had a question, I want to learn programming for me future do I need to learn something before I could start with learning programming?

[split oasis]

Yes! But what exactly do you want to learn

[cobalt moat]

how much will a software engineer with bachelors in computer science make throughout career

[peak halo]

more than most other white collar workers. but you should probably check glassdoor.com

[gilded valley]

Right now the median salary for software developers in the USA is $120,000. The top 10% earn $168,000+, and 90% of software developers earn $64,000 or more. This doesn't tell you much about 5/10/30 years down the line though.

[cobalt moat]

im hoping to be in the top 10%

[gilded valley]

if you say so

[cobalt moat]

meow UwU

[vapid jay]

Hello

[peak halo]

well, of course. though that's going to depend on what level of skill you have and what companies are willing to pay you that much in exchange for a worth-white work/life balance

[cobalt moat]

i have all the skill

[peak halo]

you have all the skill?

are you just shitposting now?

[vapid jay]

Wow

[gilded valley]

wow what? Those are high numbers relatively speaking, but people often act as if 300k TC is commonplace and expected

[cobalt moat]

i plan to have all the skills by the time im finished college so i will be valuable employee

[peak halo]

that's not possible. you'll continue learning pretty much every day for the rest of your career.

[cobalt moat]

sounds fun

[vapid jay]

Sounds great

[near ocean]

there is pretty much no chance fresh graduates have all the skills to be valuable as employees, without actually being employees beforehand

[sharp void]

can you land a job with only python?

[cobalt moat]

yes but probably not a good one

[balmy spade]

You can*.

• by the time that you've learned enough Python to be a developer the chances that it is the sole skill you know is slim to none. You will have acquired other knowledges and soft-skills along the way which only enhance your skill base. What starts with Python does not stay limited to Python.

[sharp void]

@balmy spade i know html and css and sql and github

[balmy spade]

You're also learning communication skills, trouble shooting, problem solving, project planning, design patterns, and so much more.

The point I'm trying to make is that the question is not a yes or no answer because it operates on the false premise that you will somehow only know Python.

[queen rose]

What is a good job then? Fairly individual

Based on salary or work hours?

[sharp void]

@balmy spade i appreciate your time for answering this. i am just having difficulties on my self esteem so you cant get so harsh with me. i think i will have to quit this server since i almost got a panic attack from you..

[balmy spade]

Playing it out, tightening the scope: "Can I get a job with python being the only language I'm deeply knowledgeable with?"

Yes. You have to be willing to learn more though. Your deep knowledge in one programming language means you've developed a understanding of programming and not just the language. You will need to be willing to flex that knowledge into other languages as the job demands.

[queen rose]

@sharp void Then you're probably not made for working

[balmy spade]

I assure you I am not intending to sound harsh. I will drop the conversation and you should feel empowered to block me if it is troubling. Anxiety isn't fun.

[sharp void]

thank you so much. i will remember this dude

[queen rose]

they/them bro!

Not dude

[balmy spade]

If this is somehow in reference to my pronouns, I will defend myself when I feel I need to. Thank you.

[queen rose]

Okay sorry!

[sharp void]

what do you work with yourself @balmy spade ? i am a sandwich artist at subway

[summer roost]

Hah, I was a sandwich artist once upon a time

[balmy spade]

I was a retail stock worker/cashier/employee for about 25 years. Today I'm a python software engineer.

[sharp void]

do you work with agile methods?

[balmy spade]

Hectic job, making folk's food.

[summer roost]

I was terrible at it

I mean, I was very good at making sandwiches, but I was also incredibly slow at making sandwiches

[sharp void]

sometimes your precision slows down the overall time

[summer roost]

painstaking attention to detail is a very good quality in a software engineer, and a very bad quality in a sandwich artist 😄

[balmy spade]

Loosely at best. The company I work for does follow Agile, though my team is not super strong on the ceremony of it. We do plan work, weigh it, and work from a konbon board.

[sharp void]

@balmy spade that sounds interesting man.

[balmy spade]

I value planning because it often means I know what I'm doing for a two week period and have the ability to not take on every random request that comes my way. "We'll put it on the backlog and plan it out at the end of the iteration" is a great way to say "Sounds good, leave me alone right now." xD

Other than that.... I'm very bad at planning anything.

[sharp void]

xD

[waxen stone]

So i wanted to read the chat and i saw this

[sharp void]

@queen rose

[queen rose]

@sharp void It was fun to talk before. I really appreciate your fight against marine pollution. Death to plastic and preferably life to the oceans

[sharp void]

likewise my kind sir

[queen rose]

@sharp void What is your opinion on used paper rolls? Should one reuse or build servers dedicated to them?

I have this idea

[sharp void]

i am applying for a start up thats building an IR scanner that tracks all fish in 250,000 sq. feet for data collection

[queen rose]

You do? That's insane

[sharp void]

it seems that the fishes has different religions so we want to study that more.

[queen rose]

One fish per 250,000 sq. feet?

[sharp void]

about 4,500-6,500 fishes passes through this area

[queen rose]

Which area?

[split oasis]

he meant that there are about 5k fishes every 250k sq ft, but they are just passing by as they live in a larger area

and I doubt fishes have religion 😅

[vapid jay]

When should I consider myself good enough to apply for a job? (Not talking about length of time spent learning python)

[near ocean]

do you lose anything from applying to jobs right now?

[vapid jay]

Yes, my time as well as the potential recruiter's, given that I'm still extremely new to programming as well as Python

[near ocean]

it takes like 3 seconds to apply for a job on linkedin, im not saying you should write a cover letter for every ad

[vapid jay]

... Why waste anyone's time if I know I 100% won't get said job?

I'm not sure I understand the logic behind it.

[smoky quest]

The tl;dr is there is no official bar other than "is someone willing to hire you?"
The degree would have the definite benefits of making you a better and well rounded engineer as well as opening a lot more doors at the cost of the time to go through it (no pain, no gain) and building a professional network in that field.
So now it comes down to the alternatives comparing to that. That could be like you are doing with a current unrelated job which provides you an opportunity to learn and demonstrate your skills, or going though bootcamps or spending the time to learn on your own. If you can leverage your current and past experience in the context of a programming job, that could also be a plus for you.

Note also that not all jobs are about working at a FAANG, and there are plenty of other opportunities.

In addition, depending on your country, a lack of degree may make you hit a glass ceiling. So ymmv.

When companies are hiring, they are trying to answer the question "can that person do the job". So your resume and experience should be able make them confident in that answer. You have to keep in mind that it's not just you though, as you still have to stand out comparing to all the other candidates

Note: I am not a recruiter

[smoky quest]

Other than a CS degree, there is nothing that can definitely answer "can you get a job". (and even sometimes...). That's why a trial by fire is the best answer
You could send an anonymized version of your resume to get some feedback from folks though

[vapid jay]

But that's the thing, I have nothing to put down on my resume, no projects completed, nothing, as I stated I am new to Python and programming as a whole.
A company won't hire someone like me, hence why I came here to ask when is it suitable in terms of python skills to apply for a job? What's a baseline? Do I need to know how to do XYZ? What kind of projects should I have in my portfolio (everyone can do a quiz game or whatever).

I hope I clarified my initial reasoning for asking

As for CS degree, too little too late for me for that =P

[smoky quest]

If you have nothing on your resume, then as someone hiring, I would have no reason to call you back

So by that token, you need to walk backward:

• What are the roles you want to work as?
• What are the skills required for that role?
• What would demonstrate these skills? (ie. projects)

The process of hiring is to find the best candidate who can do the job.
So that imply you are able to make the team comfortable that you can do the job AND that you are more interesting than the other candidates

Thus when you feel confident in your ability to make the team comfortable that you can do the job AND that you have a fighting chance against other candidates, is the time when you could start applying

[vapid jay]

Exactly, this is why I found Mariosis' suggestion a little bit confusing, why would I go and apply for that. I came here to see what is a reasonable baseline for when someone should start applying.

Once I've completed a small sized project? Once I've contributed a certain % to an open source project, et cetera.
I'm simply seeking to see what others would think is a good baseline, I don't think me asking myself if I am good enough for XYZ is an ideal thing as I tend to be very self-critical and probably the answer would be "no I'm not good enough for that" while someone, a third party, would actually think that yes, I am actually good enough for that

Perhaps I am not explaining myself properly?

[smoky quest]

To be fair, your initial message lacked a lot of context with regards to where you are at 😉

There is no specific universal baseline. Some people will see something in you and may want to take a chance, others would not.
The rule of thumb is that most of your competition will be new grads from a cs degree. So your projects need to be at least as interesting

[vapid jay]

As for what I'd like to do? Well, my ideal end goal is to work as a pentester.

[vapid jay]

Alright, thanks.
What would you classify as interesting? So I know what to aim for.
I've got no clue what kind of projects cs grads will make.

[smoky quest]

I can't speak specifically about pentesters as it's a bit outside of my wheelhouse.
But you could google some of the schools and see what projects they publish. See for instance http://cs229.stanford.edu/proj2021spr/

[vapid jay]

That's a fantastic link, I appreciate your time and help recursive. Thank you.

[smoky quest]

np. Note that link may be more advanced than you need. You probably wouldn't want to compete for the same jobs than stanford students. But I am sure there are other schools/classes around you can google and find

[delicate bane]

have you looked into the security+ cert https://www.comptia.org/certifications/security

[vapid jay]

Not yet, but it was on my list, along with CCNA and CCNP.

[delicate bane]

just make sure you do your research and not chase all the certificates endlessly lol

whatever makes sense for your career goals

[vapid jay]

Haha nah, for now I have teh absolute basics in my sights.
Thanks for your help and advice folks.

[delicate bane]

i highly recommend kurose's computer networking:a top-down approach for a good foundation if you believe you want to go in this direction http://gaia.cs.umass.edu/kurose_ross/online_lectures.htm

[random belfry]

What be Best language to learn along side python if I want/need a position quickly?

[peak halo]

web development positions are probably the most abundant, in which case you'd also need to know JavaScript.

[tired sky]

I've always heard python is famous among data scientists, could someone please tell me what in the world is a data scientist

[noble hare]

^ooo I second that

[smoky quest]

that's something google is great at answering 😉

Even if I wanted to, I wouldn't be able to answer it better than google

[tired sky]

I mean,Google answers are complicated

[smoky quest]

So let's dive into the parts that confuse you. What are these parts?

[tired sky]

Hmm... let me think about it

So where does a data scientist collect data from?

Like how is data collected and input into a python program

And what sort of companies need to hire data scientists?

[smoky quest]

Data is collected from the business itself and any other source of (legal) data they can put their hands on

Take for instance discord. They have access to all the users, their profile info, the messages sent, the guilds, etc.

[smoky quest]

Every company that has data and want to leverage it to optimize their business processes or create new opportunities using that data

[smoky quest]

does it make sense?

[tired sky]

Yeah, thanks

[shy field]

Hello

[sullen sparrow]

Y'all I don't get it. These well respected seniors / grad students at my school are suggesting the best way to get a job is to grind leet code and to absolutely fill every inch of white space on ur resume... To the point that like if I was a hiring manager I wouldn't even know where to start because their name is tiny black at the top and it's just lists of random things I don't care about... But I ask them about it and they're like yeah it's the best way it's to "get past the filters" and they also suggest actually using how many leetcode problems you have solved as some sort of metric of how good you are 🤔

Am I missing something or are they just going about it wrong

[smoky quest]

sounds like toxic bro culture?

While I disagree for the resume, practicing for leetcode would indeed increase your odds in interviews, but not the extent you describe

[gilded valley]

What part sounds toxic?

[smoky quest]

confusing the substance for the appearance

[gilded valley]

Naive maybe, but toxic doesn't seem to cover it

[smoky quest]

it's toxic in the sense that it would make someone focus on the wrong parts and and miss opportunities

Or finding your worth in "how good you are" based on leetcode, which would be an absolutely bad metric

[buoyant seal]

The story to be told short:
Data Satanist is a high level mathematician who happens to know programming oriented on expressing math stuff, be it some kind of formula / three dimensional algebra. Stuff that is possible from real world to be converted into formulas and then extrapolated back
In addition the person can use programming to prepare/filter/process the data
And Machine learning / neural networks are super close here too.
Person is supposed to be data scientist first in order to pursue machine learning

[analog heron]

hi i got a question, can you do web development with python as backend instead of JS

[gilded valley]

yes

Django, Flask, and FastAPI are the 3 specific frameworks to google. Or if you have more questions #web-development is probably the place to ask

[pseudo bone]

i have applied for a job and i got a data science task where i have to perform EDA and build a classification model about the users that are HOT , WARM and COLD. meaning who actively use the website or not.

after that i have to make a 30 minute presentation for the interview panel. about the approach that i used

The task is supposed to take 5 hours but it seems like the work is more than 5 hours. I am getting the feeling that the place might have toxic work enviorment where they give more work than someone can handle.

i am looking for recomendations if i should move forward with working on this project

[gilded valley]

i am looking for recomendations if i should move forward with working on this project
This depends almost entirely on your current situation. Do you have a job? Do you have other interviews/offers? What is the position?

[pseudo bone]

i am looking for jobs and i feel like i could be doing something better like applying for jobs or learning something instead of making a presentation after spending 5 hours on a problem

[dense mesa]

Sounds like they want you to do their work for them

[honest pivot]

5 hours is outrageous for an interview coding assignment, even if it actually took the promised 5 hours. I think you're being scammed for free work.

[gilded valley]

5 hours is not that uncommon for take home tasks

[peak halo]

@vapid jay your message was off-topic. try one of our three off-topic channels.

[ornate gulch]

does anyone know how to gitignore a folder in visual studio code?

[true harness]

this is off topic, it'd be better to ask in #python-discussion . but, just type the name of the folder.

[sullen sparrow]

It's also the resume part too because their suggestions are just essentially always "add more" whenever anyone asks... But they're suggestions are backed by some online sources

[dense mesa]

Which online sources? You can find anything on the internet that says anything else, it doesn't mean it's reliable or should be considered

Software engineering is about solving business problems for the most part, grinding Leetcode and cramming resume items doesn't demonstrate that. It may get you past ATS, but will look highly unprofessional if you don't understand the context of what you're doing

[sullen sparrow]

Lol that's fair. The other thing that struck me was one of the guys suggesting this said "I use a two page resume filled full and I get plenty of offers..." But I'm over here like if u get plenty of offers none of them were good lmao I only got one offer but it was at FAANG 😓 (yes mistake I know but)

[dense mesa]

Two page resumes are not great unless you're in academia and have been for ages

[sullen sparrow]

Oh I'm fully aware lol but then again it is a CS department at a very sub par school where they gave a freshman the FAANG internship lol out of all the students just because I have experience. But I ofc haven't mentioned that to them I ain't gonna be like look at me y'all

This is the same school where teachers are telling me that ^ is not java syntax and "my method of switching two variables is wrong and will result in both variables having the same value because I didn't use a temp variable"

[dense mesa]

Critical evaluation is important 😅

[quartz aspen]

For people whose languages are gendered but their own forms are not the same as the "default" form (usually masculine): do you even look at the obviously copy-pasted content where recruiter didn't even bother to fix those forms?

My language is highly gendered. My LinkedIn profile is set in feminine forms.
I just got another offer from some recruiter and first sentence is "your profile matches what we're looking for" kind of talk in feminine forms. Then the second one uses correct honorific you (kind of Spanish 'usted' but gendered), and then adjective in wrong form literally just after it...

I usually just close such messages after spotting those obvious copy-pastes. But I wonder what other people do?

[near ocean]

My native tongue is also gendered, whenever I come across job ads in English not using neutral language I just ignore them and move on.
There's something very unprofessional about seeing ads referring to a he or a she in something as abstract as a job ad imho

[quartz aspen]

One could argue that masculine is default form of the job title, so I don't mind the masculine in ads themselves... Neutral forms are still quite a foreign thing here.

But when I see targeted messages, it feels so... Unprofessional. Like... If you want me, try at least to target it to me, not paste feminine form at the top or two times and forget about everything else...

That second sentence is literally "if you're open...". "Jeśli jest Pani (<-fem) otwarty (<-masc)..."

[near ocean]

asking a bit much from HR people, dont you think? they barely know how to read

[quartz aspen]

And then people wonder why there are few women/femme people in tech :x

For a few years I had this idea to make text neutraliser/gendered form changer. For stuff like when Internet tutorials say stuff in masculine forms, but then cooking and baking recipes are in feminine forms... Or for games, as I worked once in translating a game. Or generally for anything where any company says it's more universal that way and making more versions would be expensive...
But then I think about those recruiters and how easily they could hide how little they care about people they're trying to recruit with it and I don't want to make it for such people. :x

[sullen sparrow]

Or they could just write two versions and copy and paste depending

The other thing is tho it is probably more effective to just spam as many people as possible

[latent oracle]

Question: Does anyone here have experience with being the only/one of the only people in their workplace who actively uses Python? I've been working (and learning along the way) on a large project for a long time at my job but I've found it difficult to get my reviewers to understand the complexity of what Im doing

[near ocean]

Yes

I don't even get code reviews, there's no one in the company I could ask for help or that could help with the code, but I guess that's why they hired me

[latent oracle]

Both myself and my reviewer are self-taught, but because I'm lower in management I've done a lot more coding since I started learning a year ago, so I've occasionally had to go to our systems team to niche questions

Being the only one who is doing more than cleaning data at my company is kind of stressful because on one hand I'm a big fish in a small pond, but there's also so much about Python I haven't learned because it's not relevant to my day-to-day and I have nobody to push new skills

[dense mesa]

Recruiters aren't really putting that much time/effort into lead generation imo

[ivory sluice]

don't you suspect these are just automated messages?

fun fact, lemon puts an emoji in his linkedin profile name to weed out the bots lol

and ofc, it's a 🍋

[quartz aspen]

That's why I said copy-paste. :P some of them have some kind of header with honorific at the top (basically Mr vs Ms) and it's correct then, so there must be person sending those, just not caring beyond those first words

[delicate bane]

this is smart tbh

[ember cave]

does anyone else study computer science? and what kind of jobs are you guys interested, just out of curiosity?

[smoky quest]

I would be curious to see which online sources as well.
The resume is your online ad. That's how you demonstrate your skills and value. It's also on you to communicate about it. It's not the recruiter/manager to read through random list to figure out what you mean or if they should care about it. In addition, since you write the resume, you are the one in control of what people see and think, which can give you an unfair advantage comparing to other candidates who use it as a dump.
The rule of thumb is that someone reviewing your resume will make a decision to call you back or not 30-45s. So if your resume can't convince in that short amount of time, you just will be dropped.

Personally, I have and will reject resumes that just long lists. It demonstrate poor communication skills and someone just spamming around

[ember cave]

oops sorry I jumped in mid convo

[true harness]

yes. software developer

[ivory sluice]

sounds about right

[ember cave]

oh that's cool and they get paid so much

[true harness]

the good pay is just a bonus tbh. i love coding ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[ember cave]

I feel like this degree is so hard for me since I am more passionate about 3D animating and visual comms so struggling with the coding aspect

[ember cave]

True, how did you first get into coding?

[delicate bane]

@smoky quest ah recursive, i had a recent mindset shift at work and its helped me get out of my shell and allowed me to take more initiative with positive results; i owe this to you and your advice thanks

[smoky quest]

glad to hear that

[true harness]

comp sci class at my high school

[ember cave]

noice

I actually really liked IT in high school even tho a lot of people just played games ahhaa

cool math games or friv

[sullen sparrow]

just google like "remove white space on a resume". Ill send an example of a resume that they said had too much white space

this is someone elses and its a ss of a pdf so the quality isnt actually terrible, but their only suggestion was less white space

[true harness]

that's getting to the point where if you print it, the edges might be cut off. there's like .33cm of margin on the left side lol

[smoky quest]

that would be a terrible advice. If anything, I remove stuff from it

[cosmic axle]

It’s not terrible advice no. It’s a totally valid point.

[smoky quest]

how would adding irrelevant and confusing text help the candidate?

[gilded valley]

This matches the advice I was given from people who are now employed at Google and Apple
they want you to tailor your CV to their expectations

[cosmic axle]

They didn’t say irrelevant and confusing text ?

Just there is some white space that could be filled

[smoky quest]

There is already irrelevant and confusing text on it.

Filling more white space would reduce the visibility and get the signal lost into the noise

[gilded valley]

that CV has plenty of things going against it. But the density of text matches the advice that I've heard for CVs for students targeting FAANG companies