career-advice

[near remnant]

Yeah it might appear strange. I was just wondering, I've been talking to the lead dev guy for weeks now about this opportunity and had some phone calls with him also.

But yeah, maybe I shouldn't ask it

[limpid osprey]

So if im not opt for prestigious uni, it is fine either way?

I think it is better to have cs subject to at least build my very basics stuff
And not to mention that interest = higher mark

[near remnant]

My friend works for a UK based company from a different country. He has a business degree.

[limpid osprey]

🤔 🤔

Let me think about it

[frozen rapids]

I am starting to learn python for data analysis and visualisation purposes,can someone help me with the roadmap

[near remnant]

Btw guys, if I know the Lead Developer of the company I'll be interviewing for (he referred me there) should I ask him specific questions about the interview? I just want to ask him if he's going to be the only person there during the interview.

Or just study business & economics (BSc & MSc) learn technical skills on the side (Python, SQL, Docker, maybe a bit of Scala, Kafka, Spark) and you will have a great life.

[limpid osprey]

I will do my own coding when i have free time to brush my skills...it is just hard to decide which A level to do
I do refer to counselor and he says cs a level is recognise in most uni, and my friends do agree with going to cs
But seems you guys and the internet world have different approach
That's why i need to rethink 👀

[violet quiver]

can we search for jobs here or is there somewhere else to do it?

[limpid osprey]

The next plan for me is to check with my A level lecturers and see whether he is competent enough
And also check with the unis that i want to go to and ask whether they accept cs A level
But either way thank you so much for giving me different perspective of the subjects

[steady cargo]

what sould i learn i am total new ?

[split oasis]

There is a pin that says you need to go to some websites for recruitment, can you see it?

[violet quiver]

yea found it. thanx

[steady cargo]

what i learn so i can get job ?

[split oasis]

how new?

[limpid osprey]

You are new, just pick any programming language to start
Python java js c# c++ and so on

[steady cargo]

which one have more jobs n easy to get job

i just know basic syntex @split oasis

[split oasis]

as far as I know... front end (web) development with js

[limpid osprey]

I mean, as long as u start any programming language, learning other languages will be easier
It doesnt matter which one u start since all almost same logic, just different syntax

[split oasis]

CS and other STEAM majors will already have some experience with back end development and other types of programming... but if you don't have a degree... I think you will do better with front end development unless you are passionate about something else, then do that something else

[steady cargo]

i just wanan get some remote job with nice pay

[split oasis]

where are you from?

[steady cargo]

paki land

[split oasis]

well, I don't know how nice your pay would be

[steady cargo]

if i earn 20k dollar a year it's best pay

[limpid osprey]

Another factor is the difficulty for me learning it tho
Unless economics is not hard, then i will consider it
Or else i dont think it can get flying colors for me to meet requirement for uni

And chem is hard and not relevant so hm

[near remnant]

I came from frontend to learn Flask and I built a fullstack app with flask, python, html, css, js, postgresql and react. I only have 9 months of programming experience. But, I have to add: I have two degrees in business and economics which made me quite motivated and eager to learn.

[steady cargo]

@split oasis can i pm you ?

[split oasis]

sure

[limpid osprey]

Could you give me a small example of the incorrect method of learning in the A level cs?

Okay thank you for the resources ima check it out

Okay wait
The computer science A level that has NEA project is in code 9608 or 9618

[marsh shore]

hey guys i just got into python and dk where to start at all, im trying to learn some basic syntax on W3 for a start. Is it ok? If u have any suggestions, tell me, please.

[near remnant]

what does "we are going to talk about the next steps" mean usually?

[calm roost]

Is there a place where I can sort of advertise making interfaces using Tkinter for anyone who asks, for free? I want to get some more experience making it without having to worry about messing up and wasting someone's time and money. I don't think this is recruitment, so should be able to ask this. And the links for jobs are for actual programmers, which is why I'm asking.

[analog sun]

I think that would fall under rule 6

[calm roost]

I don't really mean it in a way to "advertise" here, just to ask where I might be able to. Not sure really where to look.

(I also don't think it's really advertising if I don't get paid? Maybe? Idk.. The definition says it's in order to promote or sell a product, which I think would fall more under something paid than free.)

[onyx locust]

for anyone who's a software engineer and has a job, how hard is the work, what is your work, and how do you do your work. I'm trying to develop professional skillset and I cant anticipate what kind of real-life skills I would need. I'm working on my unit tests and ci/cd and I'm ngl its the hard but could someone tell me what they do on a daily basis as a software engineer

[rain sorrel]

#help-mushroom i need help

with glob

[pearl spire]

You probably don't want to work for free. If someone slaps you with a complicated project, your time will be dedicated towards this. Also, you are assuming that just because you work is free, wouldn't exempt you from having stakeholders. No, people will need to depend on you to deliver. No one is going to give you a random project that they wouldn't end up needing.

What I may suggest is being a freelancer. There are websites for software freelancers. You can get paid and experience.

[calm roost]

Yeah that's the trouble I've been having with trying to get started doing it, I don't want to let anyone down, but there's no one that will really be able to not depend on it.

I don't know how my skills would live up to being a freelancer, that is capable of creating money generating work? I made a program that I use pretty often, doesn't appear to have any bugs and looks good, but all of that is subjective, so I'm not sure.

[pearl spire]

@calm roost The amount of skill needed would depend on your client. They will determine if you would be a good fit by asking you questions about your skills and experiences.

[pearl spire]

I'm not a software engineer, just a hardware engineer that does know a fair amount of coding. However, I am a stakeholder for a software team that develops CI/CD tools that allow me to automate some stress testing for the hardware I develop.

I have seen their full stack and I would say that it looks very intricate. They developed their own container from scratch, which requires a lot of knowledge about IP/TCP communications. It probably took them a year or so to develop and test this even before they had stakeholders.

The difficulty of the work depends on your skills and the tasks your manager would give you. If you are a junior developer then I wouldn't expect your work to be difficult.

The best way to develop code, in my opinion, is coming up with a block diagram to explain the overall functionality of your objective. Never dive right into the code writing process without a plan.

[calm roost]

I probably wouldn't be the greatest at it then, as I've never done any sort of course on Python. Just learnt by searching up, but I think know a lot at this point. I reckon I'm in an area that people have quite commonly (as far as I've heard?), where you don't know if you're good enough for paid work, but also seem to make stuff that works.

Is it worth just going in head first and trying to freelance or just looking for a github project that might need a UI and messaging the creator?

[pearl spire]

I'm no expert either. I just know how to identify the goal and plan how to create a solution... (I use Google a lot as well... I am dyslexic so I don't remember code syntax too well...)

[pearl spire]

Sure! GitHub is a great place to see what people are up to and what they need. You can provide change suggestions by forking their code.

Before you become a freelancer, you need to understand that people will rely on your work. If you don't successfully deliver, you will not only get paid, but you will also waste their time. But if you are successful, you can officially say that you have gained relevant experience for your career.

GitHub, however, may be a little too advanced because you really have to know the big picture of the project.

[calm roost]

Yeah. I think I'll try and find some Github projects that I use or find interesting (that should be essentially attaching functions to buttons and calling it a day) to try and get some more experience on top of the 1 / 2 projects I've done personally. I suppose paid work has no contract (unless there is one) so if I fail, I don't really steal anything. I just might feel bad for a bit for wasting there time. I always get the feeling I'll have something coming my way if I failed at it, but I think that's pretty unlikely tbh..

[pearl spire]

Well, freelancing may require a contract between you and the client.

[calm roost]

Yeah I realised that as I was typing that out lol. Might come across one where it's just paid when completed, but eh, I'll think about that when I come to actually doing it

Thanks for the advice though, I do feel a little more confident in doing stuff now than before.

[pearl spire]

That's good 🙂 Yeah don't feel threatened about what you don't know.

First of all, no one expect you to memorize every single Pythonic syntax. It is more impressive to know how to solve a problem than to pretend to know how to write the code.

Secondly, the client will have ways to know if you would be a good fit for the project they would want to assign you. No one is going to hire someone who has absolutely no idea what they are doing.

[calm roost]

Actually yeah that's a great point. It's kinda half their fault if they hire me if I don't have the experience (given I wouldn't be lying about it or something, which would be scummy), and then half my fault for not getting the job because I wasn't as experienced.

[pearl spire]

Correct. If they hired you knowing that you would fail, that would be their fault.

I have seen that in my job before. A manager hired someone who had good interview skills and knew the technical subject... but didn't know anything about how the job worked. We ended up firing this person and the manager's boss reprimanded them for not assessing this person's skills properly.

[calm roost]

Damn... All that really helps my nerves though with trying. It felt incredibly daunting and like there would be incredible ramifications if I failed, but I think it's like you said, I'm just threatened by what I don't know.

[split oasis]

I guess the job didn't offer training? 😂

[pearl spire]

@split oasis Well, no, this person was a Ph.D. and so the hiring manager gave them the benefit of the doubt LOL

... which was a bad decision

[split oasis]

Well, people with a PhD can learn fast

but if no training was available, then I get it

[pearl spire]

No it was strictly R&D. The person was smart in knowing the topics but failed in knowing how to provide a solution.

Like...
"I know about how GPUs work but I don't how to design it for our products..."

[split oasis]

how did you learn to design it?

[split oasis]

If I'm sounding too invested it's because I am... I am fresh out of college and being offered my first interview for a defense company 😅

Worried they might just say I'm not good without training me... although this is an intern position

So it's different I guess

[buoyant seal]

work hard, train yourself first and everything will be good ;b There only thing to worry... are you ready to dive into defense domain? 🤔

[austere bolt]

Is there any professional robotics or AI engineer here?

[onyx path]

Hey everyone, i was wondering if someone can give me any tips regarding an internship interview i have tomorrow for a autonomous robotics company? I am currently studying mechatronics engineering (as part of EEE) but the company focuses on software side

[peak halo]

You have to ask your actual question; don't "ask to ask"

[austere bolt]

Okay.I am now 17. I would like to become an Ai Engineer and Robotics engineer. Can I work in both of that fields? And what should I study in order to become an Ai or Robotics Engineer? what is the best study path? And what do you do as an Ai engineer? what is your daily routine? what is your monthly income? and if you are 17 would you still wanna be a robotics engineer?

[vapid jay]

No sry i am going the industrial economics manager masters with focus on AI and computer

[smoky quest]

That's the same question than yesterday that someone else answered. Was it not satisfying or was something missing?

[graceful mason]

A small percentage of robotics uses AI, and even when AI is involved in the functioning of a robot chances are the model is designed by a different team to the one designing the robot itself.

[vapid jay]

help bruh why is slow mo so long @molten spoke also how do you make text appear as python codde @obtuse thorn

[peak halo]

please don't ping random people, including staff members. this is a warning.

[vapid jay]

ok but r u acc gonna respond to my question

[smoky quest]

(also wrong channel 😉 )

[peak halo]

there's an explanation of the slow mode in the pins (one of my comments); run !code in #bot-commands

[austere bolt]

Yesterday they told me the study path. I would like to know A robotics engineer's day to day life. and income and work life balance..

[austere bolt]

So I would like to study and build both of them( AI and Robotics) Is that reasonable ?

[delicate bane]

should you accept a job with a salary on the lower end of your market if youre starting off/just graduated and you probably will move companies after a year or two?

should you just continue to look for a different company instead?

im leaning towards the latter but part of me is also worried about layoffs/etc. atm

[smoky quest]

depends on the timelines.
Regardless to layoff, I would see the same exposure either way

[split oasis]

What's the catch with the defense domain? 😅

It's just a research intern position in quantum information science

[gilded valley]

During recessions, companies tend to keep around the newest hires and lay off mid level employees - because a hiring freeze will usually have been instated early enough that as the recession starts to cause problems, those newest employees will have been trained and useful but cheaper than mid level employees - given that we're heading into a recession, opting to pass on an offer seems like a high risk strategy

[graceful mason]

Not really - you're unlikely to have a job where you're applying both in depth

[austere bolt]

So what's better? which field has a good salary? What to study to become a robotic engineer? CS or mechanical engineering?

[peak halo]

I told you yesterday what degrees the autonomy engineers in my company have, and both of those were included. though my guess is that mechanical engineering is more immediately relevant.

it looks like some engineering schools also offer degrees in robotics specifically.

[smoky quest]

It's also interesting to look into it as a market of supply vs demand.
So if you look at the market of robotics vs CS:

• Which one has the most demand?
• Which one has the most applicability?
• Which one has the most requirements on the engineers?

[austere bolt]

okay

[austere bolt]

yeah

[smoky quest]

software is everywhere, so my take is that a CS has the most versatility. There are also majors/minors in electric/electronic which enables you to dabble in the robotics side

[austere bolt]

Okay. agreed. Is that better to talk with a professionals in this field?

[smoky quest]

which field? You have professionals of multiple fields around here.
Note also there are other factors as well. If there are no companies in your field of choice, then that will severely limit your options if you aren't willing to move.

[austere bolt]

robotics and AI field

[graceful mason]

You can work in the robotics field as an embedded software engineer using a CS degree, but to work as a robotics engineer out the gate (as opposed to pivoting from the previous role) you need the hardware knowledge of a mechanical engineer
(pinged wrong person sorry)

[austere bolt]

let me summarize my questions

what is better? Robotic or AI
Can somebody create and learn both of them? like, build an Ai-based robot?
which engineer has a high salary?
which is more interesting to do? creating Ai or building a robot?

[peak halo]

what is better? Robotic or AI
depends on which you like more and which one has more opportunities
which engineer has a high salary?
there's a website called glassdoor that lets you look up salaries with all sorts of variables.
which is more interesting to do?
this, again, is personal preference

[delicate bane]

i see, i see

[delicate bane]

ok, this is what part of me thought as well but it was the minority portion, so im glad i asked others here.

[austere bolt]

thanks

[gilded valley]

@delicate bane I'm curious - what is the offer that you're considering rejecting?

[topaz vale]

Hello I'm looking forward to studying CS in university and eventually work as a programmer. Is there something I should know that could help me in general? Maybe something a beginner + young person wouldn't think about but time and experience has blessed you with?

[peak halo]

Three things that are good to know going into a CS program and becoming a developer:

1. CS is mostly about the theory of what can be computed, so be prepared for a lot of theoretical material that isn't immediately applicable
2. Relatedly, CS programs are not a trade school for programmers, so it's up to you to practice
3. It's important to maintain a positive attitude about learning, because the learning is never going to stop

[topaz vale]

I see, thank you!

[delicate bane]

its an entry level DS position for a company that does investments, an industry im not particularly attached to with a potential salary that is slightly below market

this is good advice. i should approach it like this tbh

[smoky quest]

In general, I strongly recommend heavily against that as it's unprofessional, immature, sort of a "fuck you" to the people and will burn bridges.
But that's one of the situation where I could see an exception given the current market situation. I am hearing more and more about offers being rescinded from different employers (and see also the screenshot of the email from ycombinator)

[gilded valley]

I think bridges are worth burning if it's a place you've never been to in an industry that doesn't interest you for a company that undervalues you

[smoky quest]

How do you know they undervalue? That's how they valued you and something you agree to by signing up.

Note that it's also a much smaller world than you think 😉

[gilded valley]

How do you know they undervalue you? Because they offered you less money than another place

[gilded valley]

Note that it's also a much smaller world than you think 😉
We've discussed the broader point about this before I now remember - there's not much value in re-treading that ground

[smoky quest]

Then they could sign with the other place.

It could also mean they haven't performed as well in that interview or the skills they are looking for are different

[gilded valley]

they can sign the first place, then when they get another signal about their value, they can ditch the first place

[gilded valley]

Market value = what someone is willing to pay you. If another company offers you more money, that pulls your market value up

[smoky quest]

You can do all sorts of unethical things, but it doesn't mean you should

[honest pivot]

Market value is the average of what people would pay you, but good luck collecting enough data

[gilded valley]

The US where I think Rex is from has at-will employment, this means that companies and employees have astoundingly little ongoing obligation to each other. I don't think it's remotely unethical

[smoky quest]

By the same token, why giving 2 weeks notice or why are companies giving severance when they don't have to?

[gilded valley]

replied to wrong person

[gilded valley]

plenty of companies don't give severance - and the reason they do it is so as to not burn bridges
this is a scenario where the bridge has 0 value

[gilded valley]

Well the population of people willing to employ you is 2 - then you can get a precise picture of your value

[smoky quest]

You never know. While you may not care about having a reference check for that place, you may care about being able to apply to that place in the future. It's easier to call back after passing the interview than after burning bridges with them (there will be records in the ATS).
And then, in a lot of cases, the people involved will remember them even after changing employer

The US is a big country but a small world when it comes to tech. There are quite a few reference checks done behind the backs of the candidates

[honest pivot]

If it's some no-name place that makes low-ball offers, then indeed the bridge may have zero value

[gilded valley]

given that it's an industry Rex doesn't want to work in and a company that has prior of undervaluing him, then I think the chance he wants to apply there again is near 0.

[gilded valley]

4.4million software developers in the US is not small

[smoky quest]

And you are very frequently always 1 school or work alumni away

[honest pivot]

I think they mean the circle of senior people at big, important companies is small

[gilded valley]

this isn't a big or important company

[smoky quest]

not being important is not an excuse to be unethical

[gilded valley]

I think this is just patently ridiculous - and as I said, we're having a conversation we've had almost exactly before

[native narwhal]

Its sad, while few years ago there were plenty of junior positions and internships - nowadays most companies are willing to pay but only look for mid or seniors

[gilded valley]

let's just agree that this conversation is helping no one

[smoky quest]

You are free to reject or embrace anything 🙂
I just don't think we would run in the same circles. As you pointed out, there is no point to carry on on that topic

[honest pivot]

Having recently hired a more junior person (at least relative to the field I'm in), holy shit is it difficult to train people

[smoky quest]

especially now in a remote environment

[honest pivot]

We're only semi-remote, fortunately, so it's more about making sure we can be in the office at the same time, and that I don't have a million other things to do

[vapid jay]

@pallid geyser ur such a gronk istg

[delicate bane]

[pallid geyser]

funny

[delicate bane]

"the plan for the worst" email? oof

[smoky quest]

yeah, be careful about how you go through your career.
I have been part or companies where people were rejected on that basis, or others where someone checked their reference through a back channel. I also know I have been on the other end from the positive side (not that they would have told me for missed opportunities)

[pallid geyser]

we ban you once for kid stuff and now ur obsessed or some shit, leave us alone

[smoky quest]

@pallid geyser You should take this to an off topic channel

[pallid geyser]

im not interested in following this up at all for that matter

[delicate bane]

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> trolls

[delicate bane]

oh man life is hard. inb4 analysis paralysis.

[fringe pine]

!mute 916063078704107520

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until <t:1653601751:f> (59 minutes and 59 seconds).

[smoky quest]

what's the pipeline looking like on your side? How many companies?

[delicate bane]

theres been a handful ive been interviewing with but i also havent seriously started looking again until now mostly due to a number of reasons

[smoky quest]

Have you graduated yet?

[delicate bane]

not yet. after summer ill be done with grad school.

i couldve graduated in spring but decided to both extend my internship (just with a dif dept instead) and complete my minor

[smoky quest]

lmao, so by the time you graduate, either we are in a recession or you are good

[delicate bane]

literally this. i want to cri

the question is if i can secure a decent full time before then

[smoky quest]

I would separate this in two parts:

• The demand - If we are in a recession, you would be screwed regardless. As the new person who hasn't even started, you would be primed for being let go even before starting
• The offer - If you are a new grad and prepare for your interviews, why would you fail? Especially considering you already got an offer

(you could also look at negotiating your offer, and again, one of these rare situations where given the economical context, signing now may be worth the risks)

[delicate bane]

[gilded valley]

Multiple people in this channel have done this thing where they accepted an offer then later backed out - all in perfectly reasonable scenarios. Putting your medium/long term career ahead of your short term career seems like a very risky choice

[honest pivot]

I think it depends on the details. There are definitely people and places that will hold a grudge forever.

[delicate bane]

[smoky quest]

Not trying to beat on a dead horse at this point, but even without holding a grudge, that's a sign of flakiness and being untrustworthy. When asking you around, you would hear things like "they just dropped the team" or "were not trustworthy" or "they just used us while waiting to get another offer" and that's the end of it for that person, be it in an offer or if someone was looking at contacting them for an interesting opportunity. The person being talked about wouldn't even know about this discussion.

[honest pivot]

I'm a little confused under what circumstances you would be talking to whoever gave them this offer. Unless you happened to be friends or something.

Like nobody is gonna write "Accepted offer from X, but then changed mind" on their CV.

[smoky quest]

I can give you a few examples:

• While interviewing. One person that hired me was a classmate of someone who worked at the same company than me 10 years ago and they asked them about me. I only know about it because the feedback was positive
• In some startups, people were asking me if some folks in my networks were good and worth talking to

[smoky quest]

not like that.
Your interviewer or someone they know happen to have worked with you or have been in the same school. So they will ask around about you

[honest pivot]

Sure, of course some talking happens behind the scenes and you can get burned. That can happen for a lot of reasons besides this one.

[smoky quest]

indeed. There are many ways to have people remember you 😉

[smoky quest]

why would they be lying?

lmao, for once, the UK has a worse rep than the USA

[mental field]

That happens in the US too, telling yourself it doesn’t is a falsehood
Source: my senior title

[dense mesa]

[smoky quest]

There are also people trying to sell shitcoins and build scams. I would not generalize that to everyone.
The grand majority of US companies won't lie, especially when it comes to title, holidays and promises made

(especially in tech, where levels and holidays are pretty standardized and are things people care about)

[mental field]

US companies won't lie but recruiters will say and do anything to get you to sign right then and there. Just look at the prevalence of exploding offers and "the contract is pretty boiler plate, don't dig too deep" being a commonplace set of advice when an offer is given

Ultimately, you should take care of yourself and do whatever is best for your own self-interests because ultimately that'll be better for you in the long term regardless, even including backing out of a job offer you've accepted for a potentially better one as originally discussed

[smoky quest]

Offers would expire in 3-5 days as a norm. Longer than that means they aren't that interested in the job after all.
However lately, the market was so tilted in the favor of the engineers that they wouldn't even expire in many cases (or you can negotiate that).
Everything would be laid out in the contract and wouldn't have a problem talking about specific points with you.
I can see it may be daunting for junior people who may not feel comfortable asking questions or talking about it, but it's in the company's best interest to have someone joining without regret. If they are disappointed, the engineer would just leave.

Taking care of yourself means being a trustworthy party and someone people can look up to. It's just simple business relationships.
People will reap the career they sow.

[mental field]

I'm not sure where you've worked or who you've worked for but I've been a founding engineer of a General Catalyst / A18Z funded company up to Pinterest pre-IPO and neither company respected me beyond being a tool they could utilize to achieve their (the founders) goals. In my career, I took my starting salary of $75k and have 3x'd it on just base salary alone. I've been an interviewee as many times as I was an interviewer and there is literally zero (0) times I've seen someone besides recruiters who financially profit from idiots saying yes ASAP get mad when a candidate (either myself or someone else) backs out of an offer after accepting it.

I've had written offers taken off the table after I accepted them, I've had companies give me a verbal and then never follow up when I accepted, I've worked internally as recruiters talked like frat douches about candidates as if they were nothing but a paycheck bump. The only thing that matters in your career is you and the second you stop putting your own self interest first, second, and third in priority, you're going to be taken advantage of.

Granted most of my experience is working in the Bay Area or New York City where you could step outside and have people mug you for just your resume but a lot of the bay area vibes have gone online post-pandemic

[smoky quest]

lol that's strange. I have worked a lot in the bay area for many years and along the west coast, been as well founding engineer to public companies, been through acquisitions and failing startups and except for two points (which I will go back to after), I pretty much have had a very different experience from you.
Where I do rejoin you is that for early startup, it will heavily depend on the personality of the founder. It's normal, there is just a few people, there is no process and it's all made up on the spot based on the mood at the time. Furthermore, there is so much money and hype going around that it's too easy to play startup. However as the company grows, processes will be put in places and it will be more formal. There will be salary bands defined for each level and role and they will get the engineers they deserve (ex: "we are hiring at the 50th percentile of the market"). The larger companies would even have have DE&I efforts to ensure the compensation is equitable across the board. So I would not generalize to a whole industry the specifics of specific people. See also the example of Uber and how they have been working on cleaning up their act and the mess of their ex-CEO

To give a concrete example, I have worked at a startup where one of the founder promised me a bunch of stock after a year without a written a contract (I was young and stupid), and they still hold their promise. You may say I was very lucky (and dumb) but I would say that's because I have never hesitated to say no to toxic companies or management (I was still dumb for accepting it verbally) and carefully choose with whom I associate myself.
On the other side of the spectrum, I was working on founding a startup with someone I knew (and well respected). We started out well trying to work on a b2b company, got something looking good and then it turned weird, I was trying to compromise on a lot of things but was too much and I bailed out. Now they are miserable trying to do something with web3 with other toxic people.
My point here is that I absolutely agree with you that yourself should be your first priority, but we diverge in terms of how. Going in with bad business practices will only bring bad businesses. My point is not that you should be a yes-person and suck it up for your own ego either.
My point is you should not hesitate to push back and curate your jobs/connections. Don't accept anything because you feel pressured as it's a pretty bad omen. The best way to avoid the situations you mentioned, is to not get into them in the first place. And that means curating the offers and connections and being willing to walk away. I have avoided so many headaches because I not only walked away from red flags situations, but also because great people were calling me for great opportunities.

Note: it does assume you are able to get offers in interviews. If you send your resume and no one calls you back, you wouldn't be in the same situation of strength and may have to lower your expectations

[split oasis]

I think that when people agree to unfavorable terms their view of the world darkens. The same goes for when they are exposed to toxic people. I think that this isn't an issue about @mental field overgeneralizing but about how he feels. I've seen people like you two in different industries @smoky quest. Humans can transform their environment after all.

[stuck helm]

If someone didnt do well on the technical aspect, would the company move them forward to the behavioral?

[split oasis]

I can also vow to how @smoky quest makes a world a better place with how much he helps newbies like me on this channel 😅

[stuck helm]

If a company moves you forward to the behavioral, would that only happen if they liked you in the technical interview or they are in between? So they need to conduct a behavioral to be sure?

[gentle kite]

In my experience they are gated (i.e. if you move on, you did well enough in the first one)

[smoky quest]

Definitely!
Even if we shouldn't, there are too often times emotions at play. Including burn out

[mental field]

@smoky questyeah not wrong but I think treating taking an offer from a business as a business arrangement only makes sense if you yourself are a business. Usually jr engineers who would ask these things here aren't and are more than likely to be taken advantage of by either high pressure recruitment tactics (like exploding offers) or doubt in their ability to field other offers. I've made the same mistake. I think practicing a "you-first" methodology ie continuing to interview always and never stop, continue to gauge your value and expect to be paid to match, etc.

I for sure don't subscribe to any kind of "if u put positivity out there u get it back ☮️ 🕊️" kinda stuff because thats not how business is ran. its cold and calculated and doesn't run on good vibes so when I'm job hunting and fielding offers, while I'm happy and cheery in interviews, I also have to boil down what advances my career the fastest, the best, with the highest quality of life achieved by it in the micro and macro

[smoky quest]

lol me neither. But I do subscribe to healthy relationships where expectations are set and people do say what they do and do what they say.
Things go downhill when people try to fuck others

[smoky quest]

btw, these are great points! And I would rather talk about these with juniors here than take shortcuts

There are also tricks like temporarily subscribing to services like rocket lawyers to have someone go over legal docs

[mental field]

yeah I don't think intentionally accepting every offer and then declining them just for fun is smart but I do think continuing to interview at every place you started with even after accepting and only accepting when you feel comfortable to and playing competing offers up to get higher pay is always a smart idea. Never be a dick like outright abrasive asshole but being defensive and prioritizing your self is always #1 IMO

[mental field]

1000%, I think these are super helpful things to tell ppl as well. I just know theres A LOT of people who get hired by 1 FAANG company and think "oh this is as good as it gets! Don't rock the boat!" so I tend to approach advice here given thats the kind of ppl who tried to give me advice

[delicate bane]

just taking notes here, dont mind me

[smoky quest]

Right, and saying "I want to be completely commited without regret. So I plan on wrapping up the interviews I am in the middle of prior to making my decision" would work better than accepting then going back trying to renegotiate

[mental field]

oh yeah I'm not suggesting to go back and try and renegotiate haha once you accept that ship is sailed. I do think its fine to accept and then decline it if you receive an even better offer

[smoky quest]

that latter part would burn some bridges though

that would have fucked over a hiring pipeline and left a bad taste

[mental field]

ehh, maybe. I interviewed 7 ppl this week ask me any of their names I don't remember

[smoky quest]

Right, and as soon as you extend an offer and you accept, you close the pipeline and reject the candidates

[mental field]

I think everyone has a short memory and might burn your chances at that company in the future for sure but no one is holding that grudge besides maybe at best the recruiter

[smoky quest]

Now, going back to a few weeks/day later when your new-ex-employee reject you, you have to start over and try to make amend with the other great candidates you had in mind

[mental field]

I think ultimately, its not my (the candidates) problem you know?

[smoky quest]

Also people will most remember their last memory of you. Which is also why one should always try to leave with a positive attitude, even if the place is shitty. It won't matter anyway since you are leaving

[mental field]

I guess but I also feel thats a SUPER old school way of thinking about things that doesn't really pertain too much in engineering in tech

[smoky quest]

it may be if you run into the same circles or that your records in the company show that

[mental field]

I think if you work in an insanely narrow field with an active candidate pool in the dozens then yea dont do this.

[smoky quest]

guess what, the managers/directors/VP/V*/C* are old 😉

[mental field]

haha my manager is 35 and our CTO is 32, tech is skewing pretty young now

[smoky quest]

not sure it's getting any better given all the digital traces

[mental field]

yeah, I think ultimately people can dig as much as they want and find issues with candidates but most don't. I got hired at 20 by putting the 1 year of college I did on my resume but didn't explicitly denote that I didn't graduate. Got me past the recruiter and engineers didn't gaf as long as I did my work well. I think thats the general vibe. Upper management cares about business costs, recruiters care about making their buck, no one else does

[smoky quest]

I can recall a few discussions with some VCs telling me how they wouldn't invest again in founders who fail. Not even being dick to them, just not succeeding.

[mental field]

oh thats a diff story tho, founders have a lot more weight on their shoulders and have a lot more to "prove"

[smoky quest]

I have also witnessed people being fired on the spot for similar shenigans

(and sometimes less)

[mental field]

I think the tactics for founders vs your average python developer looking to make a career out of their furrafinity profile bot are massively different

HA Tesla

Meme tweet but I feel it identifies who I am pretty well

https://twitter.com/powerbottomdad1/status/1517525634720964609?s=21&t=wwzhy3LfVv0cUo1vvAj7Mg

sucks (greek edition) (@powerbottomdad1)

employers beware the 10x programmer socially adept enough to appear as but a 1x programmer. he is working 45 minutes a day and not afraid of getting fired

Likes

3746

Retweets

174

Twitter · Apr 22, 2022, 3:28 PM

[smoky quest]

communication skills can go a long way to improve a career though

[mental field]

ultimately I'll always advocate for people to treat what they do from 9-5 as work but to angle their continued passion and education in Software Engineering as their career and not to tie the two together too much. If you feel your career will be advanced exploring what the building stage is like, join early stage Series A, if you want to learn how to scale (me right now), join C/D start ups. But never compromise on getting what your value is worth and never feel obligated to conduct yourself in any kind of chivalrous manor because no one cares and everyone just wants to get a paycheck and go home

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't really advise people to join series seed/A/B without a hard look. Compensation-wise, things have changed and they wouldn't make as much as in a large company. But if they care more about the fun and experience, then yeah

[delicate bane]

unless you are maybe making your own startup but thats another story

[smoky quest]

yeah completely!
And if you want to make your own startup, I would recommend to spend a few years in an existing company to learn how a company work, learn the best practices and to build a network

[delicate bane]

i feel like those who have previously worked in startup environments are best positioned for this too

[mental field]

ehhhh, you don't really learn transferrable marketable skills in that big of tech without learning them yourself in side projects. I learned Pinterests internal tools which was SICK but it was horrible to look for career advancing work after because man, I could work with mysql using pinterests abstraction layers, I could write flask endpoints using their outdated and super customized version, I could submit, comment on, and merge PRs using their entirely custom git client and toolchain!

[smoky quest]

that does help!
But note a startup won't have the time to train you. So without doing a lot on yourself and being ready to be on your own, that may add to the difficulty

[delicate bane]

yeah it would be after spending time at a real company and having a solid foundation. it would be learning what works and what doesnt work at a startup i guess is more what i was referring to -- in case you wanted to create your own startup later on

[smoky quest]

But you also probably learned more about migration strategies, how multiple teams coordinate, what goes into a release, how that db is maintained, etc.

[mental field]

I just moved to the New York startup sphere and its wild. Getting sr engineers from Capital One or other tech companies and they're like "dock.... er?"

[smoky quest]

banks aren't known for being onto the latest and greatest

[delicate bane]

im an intern and the aws guy i was working with mentioned me learning docker myself

[smoky quest]

yep. There is so much going into a startup!
It also depends on the type of person you are and the initiative you take

[mental field]

yea anecdotal but I just founded a startup last year and none of my skills besides what NOT to do came from Pinterest.

[delicate bane]

"it would be good long term" and i mean hes not wrong, but this was also specifically for containerizing an ML model

[mental field]

granted this channel is basically just Sr ICs to say what they wish they didnt do and what they feel they did do right to ppl looking to start a career, its all anecdotal

[delicate bane]

what not to do is still important lol

[delicate bane]

is it? i thought we had a number of manager folks here

[smoky quest]

btw congrats!

[mental field]

that too, yea. sr randoms telling jr randoms

[delicate bane]

i think its better than no information

[mental field]

hey yea thanks! I worked at several seed stages before deciding I knew enough to navigate how to raise a seed round and continue onward but I'm still working full time while also working as a founder navigating the fields of bad founder advice too

[smoky quest]

that's also why these types of conversation are great as it helps confront different experiences and point of views

[smoky quest]

that must keep you busy too

[delicate bane]

but also sounds exciting

[mental field]

https://i.imgur.com/wG6y3HE.png
not busy enough lol

[delicate bane]

[modern bronze]

Hey everyone! Could I get some feedback on my resume? I'm still in college and its my first one and I have no relevant work experience so I'm not sure if its good or not

[smoky quest]

np, just post it some folks will give you some feedback

[honest pivot]

Do you have any advice on how I could convince our founder not to continue with some obvious mistakes he's making? He's originally an academic, and he's having a hard time actually delegating, communicating goals rather than tasks, and trusting the team of people he hired to be experts.

[sinful mulch]

advice him and if he doesn't listen or trust the team just keep doing your job and wait for him to recognize his mistakes when he makes those mistakes and comes running to the team for help

[honest pivot]

That doesn't sound like great advice, to be honest

[near ocean]

I would say try framing it in terms of business cost, but if they're an academic and not a business person first they may not worry about costs and profit that much
Tough one

[mental field]

It’s hard because founders typically being fed advice and told different things by other founders in their networks, the VCs backing them, or other more “educated” sources than the people they hire. I’ve only had that problem once before and I only stayed at that company for 6 months so not sure my strategy of “change or I leave” ended up working since I just left lol

The biggest problem I’ve had was around work life balance and I just was straight up like “I’m not responding to you after 5pm and if you don’t like that fire me”

[honest pivot]

Ah, this is Europe so we don't have that problem at least. Instead we just have things that don't get done.

[mental field]

“I’m not overloading myself with tasks and this new cool shiny feature is gonna take a month if you actually want it so scale it back or lose me for a month.”

Yeah, it’s totally something the founder themselves has to want to change or improve. Im sure there’s ways to make them realize but ultimately they take time and effort from you that could otherwise be spent just working. Weird balancing act

[honest pivot]

I've been looking elsewhere so that "change or I leave" can have teeth behind it

And honestly it will be a disaster for them if I leave

[mental field]

Yep, typically being like “I’m super passionate about the things I’m doing here but your attitude towards x and the way you’re handling y is making me not want to log in. I’m going to / am looking for / have other offers and I’m going to jump ship if you don’t immediately sit down and try and solve this problem(s)” would work

[near ocean]

that sounds very aggressive, i dont think giving ultimatums like this one is going to have the desired effect

[honest pivot]

Yeah, I've been thinking for a few months exactly how to bring it up

[honest pivot]

And yeah, this is exactly the issue. I don't want it to sound like a threat. But I do need to communicate it's serious and they will lose me over it.

[near ocean]

its more straightforward dealing with businessy types, you frame the problem as the business not maximising profit, losing money or taking on unnecessary risk and they change right away cause money is whats mostly on their mind

[inner wren]

Hey @buoyant seal!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[buoyant seal]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UzKp5JGkz6rE_lqXQo9_rnqDocuqwMC3/view?usp=sharing any thoughts on improving resume? (P.S. besides the white line at the top)

oh yeah, i know, I should put my resume into Indeed scanner for keywords, and make a check which key words I missed to add perhaps. Something like IaC / "Infrastructure as a code". Although probably that not really important 🤔

[graceful mason]

Tbh your achievements section should be converted entirely into bullet points under your employment history, and you should write more about your 1st and 3rd positions.
You mention a lot of skills which aren't backed by work or personal projects - you should give example projects if you can

[buoyant seal]

there is place only for achievements or detailed work 🤔

kind of limited space to fit everything. It could be tried to fit everything though

[buoyant seal]

wdym 1d and 3d positions?

[true harness]

you're not adding anything new, just moving it around. i agree you could put your bullet points under the job that they're relevant to, instead of all at the end

[buoyant seal]

technically most of skills are kind of mentioned among achievements. Plus it could be just asked during interview. Ergh. Hard to fit everything in

and skils are sort of low level things used, achievements kind of look better because they describe high level things made by the skills

[buoyant seal]

the point is in having them separately... to avoid a mess in employment history section. They are more readable when they are separated I think. Same content gathered together

[true harness]

it's not the same though you have different jobs in the same section, and you're referring to stuff you said further up the page, when it could just be right next to it

[graceful mason]

You've put 6 paragraphs on the 2nd job that can be condensed into 6 more informative bullet points (i.e. mention technologies, techniques used)
But you didn't say anything about the 1st job which you did for 3 years - surely there's something to mention
Then you've got a small note mentioning pet projects but no details about them.
Resumes should be more "show don't tell"

[buoyant seal]

1st job is almost not described because it is low level position which is not really useful for my resume. DevOps engineer specialization replaces Sysadmin job, making it kind of useless experience. Or at least it was useful before that

[graceful mason]

The main point is nobody that screens this CV is going to read all of it - you've got a limited amount of time to get their attention because they have 100 other CVs to get through. You need to use bullet points and avoid repeating words

[buoyant seal]

well, at least it is still in 1 page

[true harness]

that's another thing. instead of your achievements being "during the second project", "during the ...", you could just put those under the project/job itself, and you wouldn't have to repeat yourself so much

[buoyant seal]

anyway, thanks. I'll try to rewrite it considering the raised points 🤔

xD at least the resume looks like resume now. Previously it was YAML highlighted text/code

[kind hamlet]

hey, do we have any data analyst here? looking for some career guidance

[near ocean]

just ask

[dense mesa]

Huh so we can't link to dontasktoask?

[analog sun]

Nope

[dense mesa]

There are people working as data analysts who sometimes read this channel, it would be more helpful if you just asked your question as it may be answerable by others as well

[kind hamlet]

I'm looking to move to data analyst. Although I get along with tools like data import and cleansing in Excel very well but struggle in analysis part. And my numerical skills are poor as well. Will I regret if I go ahead with data analysis?

[spice gyro]

Hi everyone, I am currently working as an ESL teacher. But I want to switch my career to a data scientist. I am 30 now and I am learning python as a start, joined a course, did 2 projects, and I will almost finish my python course. I know there will be a lot to learn which i don't mind coz i enjoy it. The question is, do you think I will be able to get my first job experience later as a data scientist in my 30s?

[peak halo]

it's a difficult space to break into. if you're an ESL teacher, I assume this means you're fluent in another language. what language is it?

[spice gyro]

Indonesian and a little bit of Russian and Kyrgyzstan

[peak halo]

and what is the course that you're taking? because there are data science bootcamps that I think are just trying to capitalize on the data science hype, and which don't necessarily provide a good ROI or which are as likely to be recognized by potential employers.

all that said, computational linguistics is the space that I work in, and it would probably be easier for you to enter that space than other areas of data science/AI/ML.

[delicate bane]

honestly yeah. dealing with academic types seem difficult (no offense)

[spice gyro]

I took a course of Python X by codingx.

Computational linguistics was the major i was going to take but I decided to work first for a very important reason. My background is English linguistics.

[delicate bane]

https://news.crunchbase.com/news/tech-layoffs-2022

[delicate bane]

i heard a podcast once where 1 page resume length is for us companies while european companies are more comfortable with multiple page resumes. i think you should look into the job market you want to apply to and see how they do things

dunno if anyone else can confirm this but something to consider

[delicate bane]

i think it might be hard for you if thats the case, but you can also work and improve. so it really depends on how much effort you put into it.

practice makes perfect, so if you're serious, i would recommend as much practice as you can.

[kind hamlet]

I see. Thanks Rex

[delicate bane]

[gritty rivet]

I just want to add that in my experience, your age should not be an issue... I just changed careers into software engineering in my 40s. Even though most of my co-workers are nearly half my age, I find having other professional experience is seen as an asset, not a problem

[near ocean]

definitely, some of these kids cant even speak properly, any other professional experience is a plus

[jade sphinx]

hey guys , I'm Brent 14 year old programmer although I'm not new to coding I was enrolled in whitehat Jr where they teach kids to code but they scammed me by teaching me through templates from online :/. from then I lost my interest In programming but now I don't wanna give up on my aim but I don't know where to start my parents lost the guarentee in me so I don't know where to begin I'm so confused but I still wanna be what I want and wanted to ! can anyone help me :((

[cinder flower]

Hello everyone

[pearl stag]

Does employer 401k matching apply to pre-tax or post-tax income? For example, if someone earns $10,000 before taxes and $7,000 after taxes, and the employer matches up to 5% of pay, will the employer match to $500 (10k * 0.05) or to $350 (7k * 0.05)?

[near ocean]

it depends on what kind of 401k it is (after a cursory google search), traditionally they are pre-tax

[pearl stag]

Thanks. I don't know what kind of 401k it is. And it does seem like it's pre-tax

[delicate bane]

usually yes. they are also contrasted with roth iras

[silent abyss]

I would definitely not start with an ultimatum. start by telling the founder how you feel and see if they're even aware of the problem. you don't need a job lined up to start having this conversation because you're not going to threaten them the first time you talk about it. this is not going to be resolved in a single 1:1

@pearl stag in general, you can just ask your HR. even for a roth 401k, I would expect the matching to be pre-tax. but I've never heard of a match limit based on your salary (it's always just up to some fixed amount)

[honest pivot]

Of course it won't, what I have in mind is more of a "Let's come up with a concrete plan for how to change these things", not "Change these this week or else"

[silent abyss]

@pearl stag(also, bit of a nit-pick, but I think your question is whether it's before witholdings or after witholdings. it's not really about taxes, right?)

[pearl stag]

It's a small company. I don't even know what witholdings are haha. All I know is that they will match up to x% of base pay.
edit: ok I googled withholdings, and I guess that is my question

[silent abyss]

every paycheck, the company witholds some amount. most of that goes to the IRS. then, next year, you calculate how much you owe in taxes, subtract the taxes withheld, and pay that or get a tax refund

[near ocean]

i think you should first see if theyre aware they have a problem like raylu said.
if you spring solution-talk onto them without them even being aware there's an issue they might not take it the right way

[silent abyss]

no one actually knows the exact amount you owe in taxes until you calculate it next year (you could have a bunch of capital gains/losses from some other source, for example), so the company can't make decisions based on your post-tax income

yeah, "let's come up with a concrete plan" is probably for the second dateconversation ;)

[pastel thunder]

what kind of questions are asked before Teaching assistantship and Research assistantship?

[zenith hearth]

n1= input("digite um valor")
n2=input("digite outro")
s=n1+n2
print("a soma entre {} e {} equivale a{}".format(n1,n2,s))

[ivory sluice]

@zenith hearth hey i think you're in the wrong channel. if you have a question try #❓｜how-to-get-help or #python-discussion :)

[serene plank]

I think he speaks spanish

[zenith hearth]

Oi

[spice gyro]

Was it easy to get your first job experience as a software engineer?

The reason I wanna change my career is that the discrimination. Frankly speaking, you won't get very far in ESL Teaching if you're not a native. I mean, that's not something you can do about it.

I hope in the tech industry, there's no such thing. I work hard. So, if I lack of knowledge or skills, I can learn about them. But, not being able to get a higher salary or get into a higher position just because you weren't born native is something else! I lost it there.

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> spam

(fyi, they spammed in other channels too. See #pedagogy )

[gritty rivet]

I guess I would say it was easy for me,.in the sense that once I decided to get serious about it, things moved pretty fast. I wasn't even completely done with my 4-month, part-time bootcamp when I applied for the job I got. Easy is relative though... It was a lot of work.

Everyone's experience is different though and there are so many factors. I'm in the USA for one thing. You might try searching LinkedIn (or whatever vlocal equivalent might be more popular) to see if you can find career-changers in your country who might be better able to advise you.

[smoky quest]

On a side note, I see a lot of ESL / non-native english speakers in internationalization and localization. That's also one area where someone who understands more than one language can bring value.
Not saying you should go there either. Just bringing awareness and options.

[spice gyro]

Thanks for the insight. You're right, there are other options around the linguistics area that I can go into like what you've mentioned and another brother said about computational linguistics. But, after several years in the education and linguistics industry, the is always this tall barrier that is impossible to pass. That is, you are not the native, what do you know about it. I can argue with the guy, but i don't wanna argue forever. As @gritty rivet talked about LinkedIn, you can see the requirements in the education and linguistics industry where you have to be a native bla bla. That alone shows how the market demand and industry work. On the contrary, I browsed the tech industry, there's no such thing. But, i dunno about age tho. A brother said that it won't be a problem and gave me a relief.

[gritty rivet]

I was actually in Indonesia for a while a decade ago and I was shocked to learn that it was common for a job listing to say "looking for an unmarried woman aged 18-26" or what have you. That's completely illegal here. So I wouldn't want to guess what it's really like without asking local professionals

[delicate bane]

i had a weird convo at work today...

boss man essentially asked me if i was interested in a ML position, and i was caught off guard. it took me a while to realize he was asking if i was interested in a FT position since im an intern atm

him: "you dont have anything else going on, right"
me:

why does it always feel like i always get caught off guard by these topics?

@peak halo teach me your ways

[peak halo]

wrt what? Not getting caught off guard?

[delicate bane]

yes teach me how to be like you and negotiate well

i feel like i can easily be taken advantage of given my personality

im working on it but i think i need a bit more cynicism (?) in my life

[young isle]

Hello

What can i do with python? I'm beginner lol

[delicate bane]

wdym what can you do with python? you mean with respect to careers/jobs? (since this is the #career-advice channel)

[young isle]

Yeah

so i'just have finished learning python basic and got stuck to learn what next? I want to go for machine learning, AI and automation..what should i learn for that?

[delicate bane]

i think if youre seriously about getting a job in that field, you should consider obtaining a higher education degree. otherwise, it would be difficult to compete

if you just want to learn more about those topics, there are plenty online materials depending on your specific interests.

i would probably start backwards from a use case or a problem you are trying to solve, otherwise it would be too overwhelming to try to learn everything all at once. but you could start with maybe the mathematics if thats your learning style.

[smoky quest]

fyi, i18n and l11n have nothing to do with being native or not.
It's just that people with linguistic interest may be interested in it

[smoky quest]

It happens to everyone. It did happen to me too at my internship.
I also would not link it to cynicism and more about having the experience to pick up the cues

[spice gyro]

Sorry then, i got you wrong, bro.

[spice gyro]

Yeah it was. But no more now. At least that i know of.

What do you guys think about freecodecamp? I plan to continue there after finishing my python course. Or getting a remote part time job would be great or just simply involved in the real life work of data scientists to see how it works.

[delicate bane]

yeah thats why i put a question mark since i wasnt sure of the word i was looking for. experience def makes more sense

and its less pessimistic

[smoky quest]

lol yeah, it's supposed to be a good thing.
May people would love to be in your place

[vapid jay]

Yo I have a question I really need answered right now lol

This has something to do with career just not me looking for it

What IT work tasks have disappeared due to programming?

[split oasis]

Perhaps not the place to ask this

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
This is #career-advice and is thus focused on career related discussions

[subtle rock]

just responded to the question. but didnt click on reply. its basically asking about toil (automating)

[smoky quest]

ah, fair enough. Wasn't sure what you meant

[near remnant]

Is contacting former employees of a company I'm going to be interviewing for, a bad idea? (on linkedin)

[violet talon]

Hi guys I have to ask something related to which course I should select for my Undergradation
My University has 2 options One is CSE and the second is CSE(with AI and ML)
so, my thinking after reading this curriculum is that if I choose CSE-AIML the more focus on AI algorithms and Python(for machine learning)
and if I choose CSE they will more focus on different languages(java, c, c#, etc.. etc..)
maybe i can be wrong.
So which is best for me.
I have the whole curriculum/syllabus of both if u need that I can send that to you.

ping if u reply or u can dm too

[vapid jay]

What are good company types where you wont face pretentious colleagues? Are non tech focused companies good?

[gritty rivet]

People suck about the same in all company types, learn to ignore then

[gritty rivet]

Why would it be a bad idea?

[gritty rivet]

I guess it depends on what you want to ask them

[gritty rivet]

You have the curriculum, what exactly are you asking us? You choose based on what you want to do

[near remnant]

Just their experience

[gritty rivet]

I think that's a good idea. Your question implies that you have some sort of doubt?

[near remnant]

No, I will tell him that I will have an interview and just wondering what was his experience there

[ornate sequoia]

hi guys, is it better to study online or to go to a coding bootcamp for a guy that is in high school and loves coding? I know there is not a correct answer to my question, but I hope some of you can still help me.

[peak halo]

What is your goal? Because if you're in high school and you want to be a professional developer, you should not do a boot camp and just go to college/university.

Though if you're just wanting to start learning while you're in high school, you should stick to resources that let you learn at any pace, so that you can prioritize school. And a boot camp isn't going to be that.

[ornate sequoia]

yes, that's my goal. Isn't there a way to skip college/univeristy?

[fallow cobalt]

hi

[peak halo]

If you're a young person with no professional or academic experience other than high school, college is going to have the best return on investment of any of your options.

[ornate sequoia]

I saw videos of people that basically get into big companies in few months, I think that if I study for 3 years(I'll finish high school in 3 years) by myself maybe I can get there too. Am I too optimistic?

[peak halo]

Yes, you are too optimistic. The people who aren't able to get into those companies by taking that approach don't make videos about it, but almost all of them fail.

[ornate sequoia]

Thank you, I saw videos of Clément Mihailescu, should I stop following him?

[peak halo]

If you already had professional experience doing something other than programming, there are ways to switch to programming that don't necessarily involve going back to school. But as a young person with (for all intents and purposes) no experience in anything, getting a degree is going to be the most effective way to break in.

[peak halo]

Idk who that is, but I'm not suggesting that these videos are poisoning your mind, or something.

[near ocean]

Take all youtube/linkedin/whatever content with a big pinch of salt
The aim of this content is to generate clicks

[ornate sequoia]

of course but I would like to follow only people that are believable

[ornate sequoia]

so trying to become a good self-taught programmer is not a good option to you?

[ornate sequoia]

True, actually I should think more about it

[near ocean]

Most of the programming you will do in your life is self taught anyway, your work isnt going to sit down and give you lectures when you have to learn new technologies
But a degree will help you get your feet in the industry

[violet talon]

hm i asking which is better between them

[ornate sequoia]

I feel like a degree is a big waste of time because actually I can learn better in other ways, but I need to get a degree because in this way everyone recognizes my skill, am I so wrong?

[near ocean]

Yes, you are wrong

[ornate sequoia]

Am I going to learn a lot of useful things at university?

[near ocean]

Yes

[peak halo]

take a look at godlygeek's magesterial comment about going to college: #pedagogy message

@kind cove that's nice, but this is the career discussion channel. please stick to the topic.

[vapid jay]

@steady cargo make things for your own personal use that make you money

dont become someones work slave, its not worth it

do u know python?

[ornate sequoia]

thank you, that message was helpful

[red pagoda]

does online colleges require high school certificate ?

[vapid jay]

what country

[red pagoda]

anywhere

does it matter?

[vapid jay]

depends on the country

most countries yes

[red pagoda]

which countries doesn't

[vapid jay]

lol why ru asking

[red pagoda]

i wanna drop

[vapid jay]

why? you shouldnt

[red pagoda]

its all junk info anyway

i think coding bootcamp is the answer

[true harness]

what country are you in? in many countries, that is a really bad idea

[ivory sluice]

online college isn't the same as bootcamp

if you want to increase your likeliness of getting hired, stay in school, go to uni, get a degree, teach yourself throughout that entire time and build a portfolio.

[ivory sluice]

^

[gilded valley]

He seems to have at most 6 years of industry experience, and publishes a lot of very clickbaity videos. I've never watched any of his stuff, but everything I can see about the guy screams "this is probably not a great source of career advice"

[red pagoda]

not America

somewhere in asia

[copper anvil]

What aspects of Software Engineering are the highest in demand? And which ones have pretty good pay?

[peak halo]

I can't speak to what's in demand, but if you want to know what salaries are out there, check glassdoor instead of here. because it's going to vary wildly based on location, your experience, and other market forces that I don't purport to know about. but glassdoor lets you adjust for all of that.

[copper anvil]

Ok, let's talk about What is Software Engineering basically? first.

[copper anvil]

I've heard software engineering is many things like Web Dev, etc. But then once again, why do some people have the title "Software Engineer"?

[peak halo]

in some ways, it's just a fancier way of saying "programmer". but with emphasis on developing systems that are actively used and which need to be maintained over time.

[copper anvil]

What?

@peak halo Does it mean, if you're hired as a Web Dev, your hiring letter or whatever it's called will say "Software Engineer"?

[peak halo]

these titles are kind of arbitrary. even if your work is only making websites, they might still call you a "software engineer".

[copper anvil]

Ah, so, what's one of the most in-demand software engineering parts?

[vapid jay]

its career, career has something to do with it

[delicate bane]

i feel like half of this channel is trying to convince folks to not drop out of uni

[gilded valley]

hi im a high school student how do i earn 300k per year please

[delicate bane]

at the end of the day, it is technically your life, so you will have to live with the decisions you choose to make as long as you dont regret it

[delicate bane]

that may just be the other half 💀

[gilded valley]

@peak halo (pinging you because you're the most active mod) Given that there's a couple of very common questions in this channel - should I go to university? What sort of salaries can I expect? what university course should I do? - would you (PyDis) ever consider writing a blogpost with answers to those questions from a couple of staff members who already happen to be active in this channel? It seems like it would be useful to have a page with comprehensive living answers which we could direct people to

(IMO it would be better if it weren't just staff members, but PyDis doesn't seem to like approving things from non-staff members)

[delicate bane]

this might be useful if there are a variety of opinions since theres not usually one path

[peak halo]

I was thinking about writing a pinned message telling people not to ask about salaries and to just go to glassdoor. haven't given it much thought beyond that.

[peak halo]

we have content that you wrote on our website

[gilded valley]

fair enough

that second part was unnecessary from me - and didn't add anything to the suggestion

The salary question is easy enough to deal with - but something like "What university course should I do, Computer Science or Software engineering or a more specialist course like Data Science?" requires quite a bit of nuance to give a detailed answer to, and is quite subjective - if there was a page with that question and an answer from Stelercus, and answer from Godlygeek, and an answer from <other respectable person> along with a 20word summary of their respective job titles, it might mean that you could skip some of the parts of discussion that are often repeated.

This would hopefully not be used to put the kibosh on people seeking more nuanced advice - just to give them a basic outline so you can skip to what is actually specific to their circumstance

[rich spade]

Hey everyone, thanks for the acceptance!

where may I ask a doubt about what course to do of python from zero till the basic programming (know how to use database), and from there till data science and machine learning engineering... Must be here, or in #help-grapes for example?

[graceful mason]

Might want to try over in #data-science-and-ml

[copper anvil]

@peak halo

[rich spade]

I am particularly very excited to work in the area, thanks!

[peak halo]

I don't think I've heretofore been included in a "list of respectable people", so thanks for that

I think it would be a good idea, though I'm not quite sure where to put it on the website.

[peak halo]

if I answered this, I would just be guessing. my guess is web development.

[copper anvil]

Ah, alright

[graceful mason]

From a career perspective it's worth keeping in mind that the level of python knowledge needed to work in Data science/AI/ML is very basic and can be taught to anyone, and what you need to be experienced in is data analysis/insights/core AI concepts that often require going to university. Any university course will teach you the python you need from square 1

[rich spade]

yup, good! I am already in the university!

kkkkkkkkkk

[copper anvil]

@peak halo Also, wanted to ask, What is a Front End Developer?

[delicate bane]

i respect you

[copper anvil]

I know what Front-End means, but what is the job of a Front End developer

[delicate bane]

if you know what a frontend is, then you should know that a front end dev creates the frontend

[copper anvil]

Yeah, but Front End for what?

[delicate bane]

for websites

[copper anvil]

Nothing else?

[delicate bane]

i think you should take a moment to google some of this

[copper anvil]

My Wi-Fi.

[delicate bane]

[graceful mason]

Front-end for non-websites is generally going to be designed by a UI designer or just the app developer themselves. I think you'll find that front-end developer always refers to web design

[peak halo]

@copper anvil when you have a website, there's stuff that happens on the server (the back end), and stuff that happens on the user's computer (the front end). so like Blartzel said, a front end developer is going to work on the user interface and any code that runs inside the browser.

My understanding is that front-end developer positions are among the lowest-paying programming jobs, but that it's becoming increasingly rare to be employed only to do front-end (and not both front and back end).

[delicate bane]

fullstack

[delicate bane]

hmm hmm

a data architect looks like a senior data engineer++

[prisma gate]

I'm thinking about only attending college for about 2 years. I believe that after that, I would have about enough project and internships to grant me a good full time job. I feel like this is a good plan, what do y'all think?

[smoky quest]

Why not completing your studies to a Bsc? That would go a long way in increasing your opportunities and securing your career

[prisma gate]

You're probably right. I feel like jobs would most likely care if you do the job well, compared to if you just have a degree or not.

[smoky quest]

Correlation vs causation.
It does help a lot to be educated and have a degree in order to do a job well

Most of what people would consider as "good jobs" would also require a bsc or more years of experience

[vapid jay]

well when interveiwing im sure they look at youre resimae first and foremost

typo lol

[prisma gate]

But I am allowed to list all my projects in the resume right? If the interviewer checks out the projects and sees that they're well made, I feel like that would suffice getting a bachelor's degree

[vapid jay]

well i wouldn't know personally but i think they'll be more enthuesed about a colleg degree that's for sure

[smoky quest]

Companies do receive many applications, so many that they won't have much time to review and talk to everyone. So they may filter severely on the applicants. On top of that, any Bsc student will also have great projects. All of that combined would tend to put people without a degree at the bottom of the pile

[vapid jay]

well of course with said projects

[vapid jay]

you maybe able to get such thing as a "certificate" instead of an actual degree

[smoky quest]

certificates aren't really worth anything in swe

software engineering

[vapid jay]

oh

lmao

[delicate bane]

@gilded valley the common theme of the channel has popped up again

[smoky quest]

that does fit with the demography of the server

other servers with an older demography do bring different types of questions

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> spam

[fiery sage]

the big problem is that when you apply for jobs, there's often an initial automatic screening process that happens, and if you don't have a bachelor's, you're app will just automatically go in the trash

[vapid jay]

if i want to become a website backender in the future, what would i need to know?
right now im learning flask, what else would i need?

[calm fractal]

hi..

[gentle kite]

design patterns, micro service architecture, database communication, concurrency, uhm...
something like that

[vapid jay]

That's not overwhelming at all,,, well I still got 2 more years till 18

There's no way I can learn all of that while being self taught jesus

[gentle kite]

sure you can 😄
It sounds wayyy more complicated than it actually is.

Plus, you're not alone, you have an entire community to help you out when needed

(Also they're relatively easy to understand the basics of)

[gritty rivet]

roadmap.sh/backend

[gritty rivet]

Yes it's a lot and takes time. Self-taught is the most difficult route but you can still get there eventually if you must go that route. And you definitely don't need to know everything to get your first job and that's when the real learning begins

[vapid jay]

I have nowhere to go irl, my teachers teach c++, badly so, and My parents don't even believe in me, or my ability to code, so yeah, I'm on my own rn

[main bay]

selamun aleykum(ingilizce)

[quiet veldt]

Is it possible to have a python certification for free

[pure jackal]

I just finished high school and am taking a gap year... I want to get into coding and learn by myself but I have no prior knowledge. Any tips or recommendations about it?

[gilded valley]

The most important thing is to just start, not worry about starting the right way. Check out the resources recommended by this server, pick one, and go for it

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[pure jackal]

Okay. I will check it out!

[gilded valley]

What country are you in?

[pure jackal]

Nepal

[coarse wharf]

Do u need to learn something before progamming in C?

[clear haven]

yoo how do i get into freelancing?

[true harness]

reading, typing

[peak halo]

pushing buttons on a keyboard, or type theory?

[peak halo]

I assume you mean enrolling in a computer science program and dropping out after two years. And that's not a good plan.

If a position requires a formal education, then you need a degree. If a position doesn't require a formal education, then you didn't need to go to college for that position in the first place.

I also think it's doubtful that companies that seek out CS students would offer you a full-time position that starts before you graduate. I've seen companies offer part-time positions that transition immediately to a full-time position upon graduation, but only for students who are a few months away from graduating.

Another issue is that if you don't finish the degree, you would not be able to start grad school, if you ever wanted to do that. And if you just wanted to finish the degree you had started, but a few years have passed, it might be that you'd have to continue under updated requirements for which courses you've taken no longer count.

[vapid jay]

Hello Guys, I really am confused in what should I choose as a major I am thinking about computer science but I don't know what it is like to be a software engineer and whether it is a right decision to choose computer science

[vapid jay]

guys is python good for college applications?

[river panther]

Hello Guys, now i am pursuing MCA so i want to talk about the career choise for me any suggetion

how can i learn python ?

[ivory sluice]

i deleted your later messages since they were not on topic

as for python for college apps, sure why not? but rather than listing just a single word "python" have you used it in ways that demonstrate problem-solving that you can describe on your resume?

[vapid jay]

alr thx im sill 25 and was just asking for, u know, knowledge or smth

15*

[cyan sequoia]

does experience matter more for a newer programmer or a degree

[peak halo]

experience is more important than a degree in general, but it's very difficult to get the kind of experience that employers care about without a degree (doing portfolio projects isn't going to be enough), so if you don't have professional experience doing something other than programming, getting a degree is your best bet.

[cyan sequoia]

ah

[delicate bane]

you should try to do some research and see at the bare minimum if you like coding. if you dont, then it probably isnt a good decision

[vapid jay]

ok

[magic bobcat]

coffee you said that the most important thing for us newbies is to start. I am already aware that setting up your goals are important but what is the meaning behind starting when I write code spaghetti-wise?

[delicate bane]

i am not the coffee you are looking for, but i am one of the coffees ☕

even if your code is spaghetti, we all have to start somewhere. you def get better at writing cleaner code over time, especially if you take a look at some of the well-written open source projects out there.

[gilded valley]

Pretty much what Rex said. The way to get better is by doing, agonising over doing it right is very often detrimental. That's not to say you shouldn't look back and say "what could I have done better?". But just accept that you're not going to get it 100% right first time and practice some more

[vapid jay]

Hey everyone im only 14 and I love learning programming and idk what to focus on for my gcses does anyone have any suggestions?

[gilded valley]

They don't matter too much. Get a decent grade in maths and science and then the others should just be things you think you'll enjoy

[vapid jay]

I struggle quite alot in maths unfortunately and I'm just worried I won't get the grades I want.

[gilded valley]

Put in the time to revise and you'll get there. It will be tedious, but putting in the hours really does count

Focus on getting at least a b 6 or whatever the modern equivalent of a B is

[vapid jay]

Thankyou! Have a great day/night

[wise pendant]

Real question here is, does a boot camp make up for not having CS degree?

I wanna be a front-end dev, I’m currently a high school student and the idea of university/college does not fascinate me.

Not to mention I’m one month into a full-stack curriculum from a boot camp (online)

[gilded valley]

As a high school student - no, a bootcamp will not close the gap between you and someone with a CS degree

Why do you not want to go to college?

[wise pendant]

see it as a waste of time to be honest although it’s probably not

[peak halo]

a boot camp is not an alternative to a degree if you have no professional experience and no other degree, no. but front-end web development, from my understanding, has relatively lower requirements than other developer positions, and probably the lowest pay. so it might be doable.

[peak halo]

individual assignments (and sometimes even courses) might feel like a waste of time, but the end-to-end experience is not.

[wise pendant]

True

[gilded valley]

College comes with a lot of benefits besides the learning you get from the course. Moving away from home forces you to grow up, you meet a lot of interesting new people, and you'll have opportunities not available outside of university - the option to do internships where you work somewhere for a few months between semesters is hugely valuable.

[sinful mulch]

how many of you guys in here have successful jobs and you were self taught ?

[wise pendant]

Might jus end up applying to university next year and going for an architecture degree

[smoky quest]

How would that fit with your frontend career?

[gilded valley]

are you in the US?

[wise pendant]

it doesn’t 😭🙏 (totally different careers)

[smoky quest]

What's the expected outcome of this question? Is there a question behind?

[sinful mulch]

I'm expecting successful stories of people who have succeeded without a collage or university degree

[wise pendant]

I’m in love with studying and learning different things, architecture, computer science (anything to do w tech), engineering I’ll consume it all if I can

Either way I was planning on trying out being a front-end dev and after a while going back to school for the architecture degree

[smoky quest]

These are pretty rare to find. Good luck!

[sinful mulch]

i will aim to be one of these rare ones

[smoky quest]

Why taking the most difficult route?

[gilded valley]

Here's a reasonable blog post: https://lowlyswe.substack.com/p/my-experience-getting-a-tech-job?s=r

If you check the pins there's a reddit post from a guy who got a CS job with no degree or relevant experience.

Anecdotally, self-teaching is very hard but possible

The common thread is that people who are self-taugh tend to have experience outside of tech and are generally pretty good at being hard workers

[true harness]

why not just take an easier route?

[sinful mulch]

i'll go to a collage also but when applying for jobs in the Future i will not include my degree at first i will try applying with just my projects as a resume

[gilded valley]

also a large tilt towards extroverts, because networking is the main path to landing a job

[smoky quest]

Why?

[sinful mulch]

i will compare which one is more preferred by companies no degree or degree

[true harness]

is there really going to be a surprising result there? obviously they'd prefer if you have a degree

[smoky quest]

That's already a given that degrees have a definitive advantage

[gilded valley]

how old are you now?

[sinful mulch]

what other programming languages would a person need next to python to land a good programming job?

[wise pendant]

Python Java JavaScript c++

Js, react

Blah blah a bunch

[sinful mulch]

19

[smoky quest]

You can find a sample of skills there: https://roadmap.sh/
But there are also some fundamentals to know about

[gilded valley]

if you're 19, and accepted that you're going to college - just focus on getting that first job

[gilded valley]

almost no job requires or expects Python, C++, Java, and ReactJS
probably at most 2 of those

[wise pendant]

I know just listing some languages(it’s all based on what you specialize in)

[sinful mulch]

that's nice to know

[smoky quest]

During college, you will see more than 2 languages, all of them with different ways to go about it. It's great as it helps you open your mind to the various ways of looking at a problem and giving you some breadth

But then, the languages used at the job will specifically depend on the role and task. But it's not uncommon to have to use more than 3-5 languages, with 1/2 as core ones

[true harness]

huh. are you including things like bash, pwsh, dockerfiles into that count

[wise pendant]

What’s sql it’s the next topic in my online boot camp course, is it another programming language 😭 man another one

[smoky quest]

yeah, in a liberal way

[sinful mulch]

i'll start with python and java and continue on from there

[true harness]

sorta off topic, but it's how you talk to one kind of databases

[wise pendant]

Ohhh seems pretty cool, thanks for the chat I’m gonna go back to studying cya all

[shadow moss]

JVM based language (java/kotlin are biggest two) or C# or Javascript, either front end or backend.

[wise pendant]

Study MERN stack

[peak halo]

Putting your future career prospects on the line to prove a point is a really terrible move.

[dense mesa]

It's possible without but a lot harder

[wise pendant]

I’ve heard in general getting a job in the industry is hard

With or without degree

[gritty rivet]

Getting really good at SQL is hard, but learning the basics is surprisingly easy. It's more like learning HTML than learning Python (it's only for data queries, not a full-blown multipurpose language).

[golden wasp]

Can you suggest some resources for SQL?

[steel coyote]

hi, I know this might sound out of the blue but I am looking to have a 1 on 1 talk with somebody working (or has worked) in the industry to ask them a few questions. It won't be more than 5 minutes. I'm new and I would love a super brief overview about how you got to be where you are now and stuff of that sort.

[peak halo]

Python is good. Discord put the home screen there, not us. If you have a question about that, ask in #community-meta

[delicate bane]

check out the pinned links in #databases

[vapid jay]

or just try hard in high school (as opposed to slacking off) and get into a good college

[sinful mulch]

They are expensive and yeah I just finished High-school this week

[vapid jay]

what's your GPA

[sinful mulch]

3.9

[vapid jay]

unweighted?

[sinful mulch]

Wdym?

[vapid jay]

how many AP classes

[sinful mulch]

1

2 AP classes actually

[gritty rivet]

There are endless options, but I like Datacamp and Dataquest

[solemn valley]

I like this one. It has nice explanations of the solutions, too.
For me, the hardest thing about practicing SQL is the many different dialects in use. All to easy to try to implement a StackOverflow answer that only works for a different one than what you're using.
https://pgexercises.com/

[native narwhal]

Okay so regarding Seniority in programming I am doing some research(as every other night 🙂 )
I noticed that there are some Front End Senior positions that pay vastly more like in the $200k range and to me that is strange because a Senior Full stack developer deals with a lot more in terms of back end/servers and even deployment and dev operations while a Front End programmer deals with pretty much just the front end 😄
So how come this is possible I mean after you become Senior in JS/React.js per se what else is there to do in the FE that pays that much more even (double) than what a Full Stack programmer earns
-one note: In one of this high paying Front End job positions there was a mention of security in mind

now how comes FE programmers care about security 😄

also what is there for an Extreme Expert Front End developer to know other than making UI with React.js 😄

[smoky quest]

It comes down to the impact you can have. As you become more senior, it becomes about how you are mentoring others, how you are thinking about the overall architecture and cross-team efforts. The overall scope of the projects you undertake becomes larger

You also have to look at it in terms of depth one can go. A fullstack, even senior, won't be able to go as deep in the frontend than the frontend engineer or as deep in the backend than a backend engineer. They are also used for different purpose, more like a jack of all trade, master of none

[vapid jay]

Anyone knows bout full stack java

[onyx locust]

does anyone know a good place where to find contributors for projects?

[ivory sluice]

https://news.ycombinator.com maybe

[onyx locust]

wow what is that website, is it a listing site?

[ivory sluice]

don't know too much about it, other than that it's called "hacker news" despite there being no mention of that in the URL so it's hard to remember.

certain subreddits on reddit may also be appropriate

[mild mortar]

hi guys

[red pagoda]

@smoky quest one time u said it doesn't matter where u get ur msc

dude college offers bachelor for high school grads

so if im correct 8 years?

like u need a bsc for msc right so its 8

[smoky quest]

More like ~5 years

it's not like 5 +3 or 4 + 4

[red pagoda]

its says 1-3 years

[smoky quest]

what is it and about which one?

[red pagoda]

cs ofc

[red pagoda]

ohh google

[smoky quest]

it's a news website. There is also http://lobste.rs as a bit more niche too

[wise spoke]

Aside from a Computer Science or Software Engineer degree from Uni.

What other qualification or experiences a programmer must have to get a job in London?

I looked at current jobs and it appears that they are asking for years of experience with many program languages and work experience, even for a beginning job?

[smoky quest]

by definition, entry level jobs do not require years of experience

[near ocean]

Hacker news is the news/forum part of ycombinator

[vapid jay]

Hecker man ?

[wise spoke]

I see. Thank you 🙂

[near ocean]

Youre probably not going to find contributors on ycombinator anyway, if people think stack overflow is toxic they should try posting about something in hacker news

[gilded valley]

You probably need something on top of your degree to land a reasonable job in London. Things employers ask for in grads: previous internships or relevant part time work, activity in societies or events outside your course in uni, part time work irrelevant to your degree (e.g delivering pizza)

[vapid jay]

hi ^^

[wise spoke]

Yeah. I will definitely get a part time job during Uni.

[gilded valley]

If you haven't actually started uni yet, then by far the most valuable thing you can do is get 2 internships: one between y1 and y2, another between y2 and y3

The way to do that is to work a little harder in year 1 to try and become as competent a developer as possible, and probably participating in some relevant society or something

[elfin dagger]

Hello everyone
I'm A jouiner at python
and someone can dm me
about sending some books or some information

[near ocean]

!resources use this, read Automate the Boring Stuff with Python
if you have more questions about careers you can ask them here, dont expect people to DM you to help you

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[graceful mason]

Courses often offer an optional placement year that you should definitely take

[gilded valley]

I strongly disagree - a placement year offers no advantage vs 2 internships, and comes with the disadvantage of an extra year before you can enter the workforce properly

[dense mesa]

True, I think it's a good way to try something completely different to your degree and see if you can handle it for a while though

[gilded valley]

I think Imperial does this middle ground thing with 6 month placements, that might be a good option

or it might have been Kings. I just know someone on my internship was required to do a 6 month placement as part of their course

2 internships > 1 internship > placement year > nothing IMO

and working part time as a software dev alongside your degree can be more valuable than any of those, depending on the company it's for and the work you're doing

[graceful mason]

I guess it depends on the quality of the internship - I'd say it took the best part of 6 months for me to feel completely independent at mine, to build up the experience required for greater responsibility, to be involved in really good projects/high-priority investigations, and to spend a couple of months doing secondments with other teams.
If you've got a poor internship then any amount of time there isn't going to net you much experience, but with a good one that extra 6 months can be very valuable

[gilded valley]

I guess it all depends on the individual, but I did an internship at a large corporation. There was a cohort of about 30 interns working their for 12 weeks, by sort of 4 weeks in about 2 thirds of those were just fully integrated into their respective teams and plugging away at real and meaningful Jira tickets and contributing to design discussions.

[gilded valley]

If you've got a poor internship then any amount of time there isn't going to net you much experience, but with a good one that extra 6 months can be very valuable

If you've got a poor internship, then you spend 12 weeks gaining that experience, if you have a poor placement (which seems just as likely) then you spend a year gaining that experience. The difference in cost is huge.

If you've got a good internship, then you're very likely to get a job offer at the end of it - so the fact it's short doesn't matter too much because you'll be back at it within a year

but if you've got a good placement, then a lot of future employers will treat the placement year as part of education rather than as part of your experience, and will consequently value you lower than if you'd entered the full time role a year early

[wise spoke]

I see. Thank you 🙂

I have applied and been accepted to do a CS course with a year in industry. But after reading the comments from @graceful mason and @gilded valley I think I might switch that to an standard BSc degree without year in industry and do some interns.

Is there any recommended sites that the community could recommend me to search for internship in UK?

Preferably one that isn't too long so that I could do them during holidays whilst studying at Uni.

[gilded valley]

Gradcracker and Ratemyplacement are two of the biggest ones. When it comes to applying, a lot will ask for "penultimate year student". You can ignore for some applications. You should be looking to start applying in sort of November in your first year.

The standard for internships is that they're done over the summer between university years, so they'll usually start in June/July and end in August/early September

[wise spoke]

I see, but does the 10-month long internship/placement is split into different summers or is that just for placement year students?

[gilded valley]

The standard for placement students is 10-12 months that takes up a full academic year between your second and third years

whereas internships take place in summers between academic years, but don't add any time to your course

[graceful mason]

Generally isn't 2 different courses afaik - you just decide at the end of y2 whether to go straight into y3 or take a placement

[gilded valley]

Yeah, the way it worked at my uni was that it was technically 2 separate courses, but that separation only really materialised after you had gotten or not gotten a placement

so you don't have to make the decision ahead of time

[graceful mason]

The key thing is to make sure you have a year of experience - if you don't want the placement year, make sure you do 2x6 month placements.

Also on top of gradcracker/ratemyplacement your uni should be in contact with businesses who take regular placement students and passing on opportunities to you. Some companies post a lot of their placements on Linkedin too

[gilded valley]

no - again I disagree, 2x6months isn't necessary

2 2-3month internships at good companies are much better than 6 months at mediocre companies

or one internship at a mediocre company followed by one at a good company

the key thing is to land a job offer at as good a company as possible - and internships are the path that give you the best opportunity to do that

[wise spoke]

I see. Thanks for everyone's help. I will definitely be choosing to do an internship over placement year when I start Uni 😆

[graceful mason]

I don't see the value of a 2-3 month internship other than giving you an opportunity to see what an area of work you're unsure about would be like. Unless the internship is specifically related to a research opportunity you will have very little time to learn, network, or gain any significant experience.
When you're working at a company that offers 2-3 month, 6 month, and 12 month internships they're more likely to prioritise offering graduate jobs to people that work there for longer

[gilded valley]

12 weeks is enough time to get a feel of what it's like to work in a real team on real projects

[gilded valley]

2-3 month, 6 month, and 12 month internships they're more likely to prioritise offering graduate jobs to people that work there for longer

This is true, but it's only true because a longer time period gives them more time to assess ability and removes uncertainty about ability. It's not a huge difference. And there's also not that many places that actually offer all 3

Almost everyone I know who did a summer internship got a job offer - the only person who I can think of who didn't get a job offer got fired mid-internship

(within tech, I know some investment interns who didn't get offers after internships)

[graceful mason]

I imagine our difference in opinions might also be related to the areas we worked in. For example something like web development you can get into very quickly, and what you're working on after 3 months might not be significantly different compared to 6 months.

For my internship I was doing embedded development for robotics, where most of the first month was learning the fundamentals of the system, and lots of the work I ended up doing can take 1 or 2 months per ticket.

With a 3 month internship I barely would have had an opportunity to scratch the surface and I don't think they would have gotten to know me and offered a graduate position. The last 6 months was 1 piece of work where I gained most of my confidence and significant valuable experience.

Point is:

• nobody needs to decide before y2 whether they're going to take a placement year or not
• regardless of if you take a placement year or not you should take summer internships
• for some areas and/or companies it could be much more important to take longer internships to guarantee the experience and networking needed for a good graduate position

[gilded valley]

Yeah, I think you're right. Embedded seems like something which requires quite a high upfront cost before you can start being useful. Whereas with web dev it's easy enough to hop into an existing project or kick of a new one, or for data science if someone gives you a CSV or database, you're pretty much good to go.

• nobody needs to decide before y2 whether they're going to take a placement year or not
  Yeah, definitely agree on this. This isn't a choice that you have to make up front.
• regardless of if you take a placement year or not you should take summer internships
  Yeah - agreed again.

The takeaway for you @wise spoke is that you should stick on the placement year course, try your hardest to get an internship between year one and two, then you can make the decision in your second year if you want to bother with the placement: you don't have to make that choice now.

[wise spoke]

Ha ha. I see thanks guys 🙂

[raven bluff]

I wasted 5 years of my life getting a useless degree and MA, and am now working to learn coding in my own time.

Is it worth getting qualifications to show employers? Would a piece of paper make much difference, or should I just build a CV of projects to show potential employers? If qualifications would help, which are best?

Any opinions or personal experiences would be appreciated 👏

[delicate bane]

haha ive heard dev relations people complain about this very thing, so im glad im not on there

[gritty rivet]

I was once where you are now, have a great job as a software engineer now. There are formal certifications for things like AWS that have some value to employers but the most important thing is building a portfolio of projects. A bootcamp can help (Nucamp Backend was well worth the investment for me personally) but take self-learning as far as you can first so you really understand what you're trying to accomplish before you throw any money at anybody to help you learn

So to be perfectly clear once you have at least a BA, no, paper credentials aren't worth a whole lot tech. Yes someone with an MS in CS is at a big advantage over those of us with irrelevant degrees, but I wouldn't say you need to do anything that heavy just to build a career at this point

[buoyant seal]

Ordering in descendence by how much is it worthy: Real job experience -> Internships -> Pet projects / programming competitions -> You've read a book / Certifications by known companies like AWS/whoever made k8s for example -> Doing nothing -> All other certificates

[delicate bane]

another option/route you could take are tech apprenticeships. theyre more tailored for individuals in your situation - plus youve proven you have the capability to learn with your MA, which is def what they are looking for in individuals. you also get paid while learning so thats a plus.

[obtuse mango]

Hello yall just started coding and for some reason i understand the concept but when it comes to build something with it i feel like i dont know were to start and what to do

is that normal to happen when you first start to code and how to fixs that

[wide dew]

Hey guys i wanna start learning python as it is a part of my computer science course

where can i find a good tutorial for free?

[maiden jasper]

Kite or Tabnine?

[gritty rivet]

Try #python-discussion for general questions, this is the career channel

[raven bluff]

Thank you for the answers @gritty rivet @buoyant seal @delicate bane

Thank you for the answers @gritty rivet @buoyant seal @delicate bane

Hopefully have an interview with a company that likes my MA and the effort I've put in in my own, and want to potentially train me up the rest of the way 🤞 🤞 🤞 🤞 🤞

[upbeat shell]

Hi, idk if this is the appropriate channel but I have to write a CV and cover letter as a homework

but I'm having a blank page syndrome, I have to choose a real life job offer so after a bit of thinking I thought I could ask people who have gone through this

[peak halo]

I'm not sure if I understand the dilemma. you're just needing to write a resume/CV detailing your personal experience, yes? what's this about a "real life job offer"? because if you have a job offer, that would imply that you've already submitted a resume/CV and interviewed for the position.

[upbeat shell]

It's a homework for school, I just have to make up a CV and cover letter around a real job offer. So I can invent things up

[peak halo]

that is, you need to make a CV and cover letter for a real job listing? because job listings and job offers are different.

[upbeat shell]

I'm not sure I know the difference but afterwards I'll have a fake job interview with my teacher, nothing fancy just 15 minute talk with typical questions

[peak halo]

a job listing is just a message saying that they're looking for someone to fill a certain position, and you can go and apply. a job offer is made to a specific individual who the company wants to fill that position.

[upbeat shell]

job listing then

[peak halo]

so you have to make up what the imaginary position is? based on your current knowledge/experience, what is a position that you're most qualified for, even if only vaguely?

[upbeat shell]

basically I have to find an announcement on the internet and write as if I'm responding to them

also I'm a physics student, I vaguely know about the job environment for programming

I've looked up CV examples on the internet but they're too much detailed, I want to write down a simple one as my teacher isn't familiar with it

thank you very much, is there a simplistic example for CV I can write over?

yeah I guess I'll do my own from scratch

nah it shouldn't be very long, I'm just struggling with the terminology like what to write just for a bit of content

[dense mesa]

Have you looked online for any examples? This stuff is very confusing when you're new to it, but you get the hang after doing a few applications

This is really good, it's basically a letter showing why you're good for both the company and position

[upbeat shell]

Thank you very much all 🙏

[honest pivot]

Annoyingly, it's quite common in Europe for "job offer" to refer to a listing, as in "XYZ is offering a job in blah". I literally see LinkedIn posts that say "41 job offers in (technology)". In that case, I don't actually know what language they use to describe the actual offer letter.

[delicate bane]

that is annoying

[peak halo]

So you're saying that British English has an ambiguity that isn't present in American English?

[dim pelican]

What’s the quickest way to get a job in tech with no work experience making 70k

[peak halo]

Getting a computer science or similar degree and doing internships over the summer while you get it.

[dim pelican]

Well fml lol.

[dim pelican]

Thank you for the quick response

[peak halo]

The positions in question wouldn't pay 70k or more if it was that easy, unfortunately

[near remnant]

I've got referred to an unadvertised position by the team leader. Gonna have an interview. Well, I didnt see this coming.

[dim pelican]

I have some experience with programming, I just don’t have time to go to school. I’m close to just giving up tbh.

[peak halo]

I'm sorry to hear that. What are these other obligations?

[summer roost]

If you can't afford the time or money to get a degree, a boot camp certificate is the next best option. It's a distant second place in terms of how helpful it will be in getting a job, but it's still much better than nothing

[dim pelican]

I work 12 hour variable night shift. Here’s an example of a two week period. The day after the last day is useless since I’m sleep until 3 and the day before is useless since I have to sleep for a few hours during the day.

Outside of that I have three kids and a wife on already limited time.

[near remnant]

Feels good but scared gonna fck it up. But based on this , it should be in the bag already

[dim pelican]

The way it seems they are set up are weekly assignments or such (unless I’ve been missing out on self pace ones) which is the same problem as college.

[dim pelican]

Just look into the company a bit and be honest. By look into I mean their history. Not sure why but every job I’ve evert applied to has asked this and expected me to know lol.

[near remnant]

Yeah, they just want me to show them my project and then talk about the work and "next steps"

[peak halo]

what are these 12 hour shifts for? because when you said that you had "no experience", I figured you meant "no professional experience whatsoever", not "no professional programming experience".

[dim pelican]

Yes, 7 pm to 7 am. And no professional it experience sorry lol.

[near remnant]

Unfortunately, prepping for my master's final exam takes all my time. My project is kinda done, i just want to dockerize it for heroku.

[peak halo]

are you able to say what job you're working during these shifts, or no?

[dim pelican]

Sorry, it’s manufacturing. I misread your message. I make ink. No possible way to spin it even (I tried lol)

[peak halo]

one of my classmates was married with kids, and I think they saved up for a time and then lived primarily off her income while he took as many courses as possible per semester. but it was very difficult for them.

do you have a bachelors degree in something else?

[dim pelican]

I’m the only one working. Child care is outrages for 3 kids so she stays at home lol.

[feral pecan]

for i in range

[peak halo]

@dim pelican I'm sorry that I don't have better news :/ but I commend you for doing right by your wife and kids.

[dim pelican]

Nope. Couldn’t afford school nor had the resources to apply for aid (I was living in a mini van my senior year so additional debt and college was the least of my concerns lmao)

Thank you! She’s been a. Stay at home mom since 2018 and the older starts home school next year.

[summer roost]

There are at least some self paced ones, judging by a quick Google. https://www.bestcolleges.com/bootcamps/find-bootcamps/self-paced/

[peak halo]

I assume she's already looked into jobs she could work from home? my mom started working from home shortly before I was born (in the 90s) and continued to do so through my whole childhood.

not that it's not a lot of work. it is.

but there were a total of four of us, so I guess it's doable.

[dim pelican]

Thank you, I’ll have to look more into it. Everything I’ve heard about bootcamps thus far has been from people who went through one and are currently in tech and that is enough for credibility for me lol.

[dim pelican]

Yeah off and on. But I sleep in the Living-room currently so that kills some productivity for here having to be quite and all) we live in a. Townhome and I’m not climbing 2 flights of stairs after a shift. Plus our youngest is still in our room so being in there affects nap time for her as well).

[dim pelican]

Most definitely. Just logistics affects our situation a lot. If only we had a basement or garage lol.

[dense mesa]

@dim pelican do you have any extended breaks during shifts? Ik how demanding manufacturing gets

[dim pelican]

Not really. I am on call all shift. So while I can do smaller things like my Just Enough Git project, I cant do any course work or anything because ill end up forgetting what I went over, have to reread and run the risk of repeating the process over and over all shift lol.

[dense mesa]

Look up Danny Thompson (the developer) on YouTube/Twitter/linkedin, he's done a lot of content on how to learn to write decent software while working long jobs

[limber grove]

hi guys, I might be overthinking this but I am in my first year of community college just getting generals done, I heard I need internships to get a good job right out of college but I wont be taking anything "computer science" related until junior year, I'm just wondering if I can get an internship between junior senior year and still get a decent job out of college?

[peak halo]

even if you never do an internship, that doesn't completely eliminate your job prospects. the more summers you do an internship, the better.

there are two core benefits of internships that come to mind. the first is that it gives you experience doing actual professional work for an actual company, and companies like for you to have that already.

the other is that it gives you an experience that sets you apart from other computer science degree holders. which is why you want to go for internships that relate to the kind of job you want to have

but internships aren't the only way to get "domain specific experience". I never did an internship, but I did get a grant to do AI research one summer, and now I work in the AI department for a research company.

You want to be able to answer the question "why should I hire you and not some other CS degree holder with the same GPA?", and internships aren't the only way to answer that @limber grove

[limber grove]

I appreciate the advice and response thank you!

[latent geyser]

hi guys, im going to be a senior in high school next year, and over the summer i have an internship with this small tech company. im probably going to be spending most of my summer there (probably 9-5 mon-fri), but they said that the end date is open ended. Is it unlikely they'll let me stay after school starts up? Id barely be able to show up because school is literally 9-5... just curious what you guys think

i do have senior release on monday and wed where i get out early too

but idk if ill be able to get any valuable learning if i only go for so little a week

[shadow moss]

It could be they are calling it "open ended" because giving you an end date in United States could be seen as formal employment contract which negates At Will employment. Very likely they expect you to resign when school starts. As for Senior Release, you could ask if they want you to come in on Monday to do the paperwork and issue you work equipment or just start Monday. LIkely they will tell you to start when school ends and you can do it M-F full time.

[honest pivot]

No, I said Europe 😉

[peak halo]

If there are features of English shared only by all non-native varieties in Europe, this is the first I've heard.

[honest pivot]

I don't know if it's shared by all, but there probably are such features. Also, it's possible British English does the same thing, although I'm not sure.

But "offer" can mean what Americans call a "sale", as in an advertised discount at a retail store. "Come see today's offers". Same in Irish English.

Not sure if that usage has any relation to job listings.

[vapid jay]

how many interviews till i get my first job?

[near ocean]

a lot

[peak halo]

it's impossible to say.

[vapid jay]

ive had one technical where i gassed out. now im having my second technical

just wanna know what to expect till i find some place finally

[peak halo]

are you asking how many rounds of interviews you might have for one position?

[vapid jay]

no, how many different companies. one i bombed

[near ocean]

I got a job on my second interview but it took so long just to get people to interview me

[peak halo]

then it's impossible to say. there are probably people who are offered and who accept the first position they interview for. but I also know someone who interviewed for ten, or something like that.

the first job hunt is exhausting.

[honest pivot]

The more interviews you do, the better you'll get at them. You'll get something eventually.

If you're getting invited for interviews that's a pretty good sign already.

[vapid jay]

Yes. I was tired out by multiple questions in an interview and couldnt finish it. i could have easily if they asked me the hardest question first. hopefully this one is going to be shorted and i wont be exhausted. thank you

[honest pivot]

Interviews will usually progress from easier questions to harder ones.

Although, if you're talking about technical questions, don't worry, necessarily. At least when I do technical interviews, I'm just trying to see how much someone knows, and this usually involves drilling down into more difficult questions until they don't know something. So not knowing an answer is not necessarily bad.

[vapid jay]

oh is it how all of them are built?

ive only had one so i didnt know haha

[honest pivot]

No, there are lots of different ways to interview people

[vapid jay]

ive had one for saas and they didnt even ask me to code they just checked my history

[honest pivot]

Yeah, I don't ask people to code either

[vapid jay]

oh thats reassuring. because i get very nervous during it and make mistakes i wouldnt have done otherwise

[honest pivot]

Yeah, personally I think coding on a whiteboard (i.e., without the helpful features of an IDE and access to StackExchange) is stupid. And yeah, even just live coding in an IDE while someone is watching can be pretty...non-representative of their ability.

[near remnant]

How are my chances if I've got referred to an unadvertised, unpaid internship, by the team leader dev / tech lead of a small company?

[honest pivot]

Sounds like good chances, but I'm saddened that unpaid internships are becoming so common

[near remnant]

To be honest, I don't care about it. I can live with 2-3 months of unpaid internship. Honestly, Im so into it that I hope I get it.

[honest pivot]

I had internships that paid enough to pay rent, occasionally eat out, and save money. And they were also interesting.

[near remnant]

They want to train me and then hire me as a junior

I've made a fullstack project with the company's stack, so I can learn beforehand. Hopefully I will get it.

[honest pivot]

I hope they actually want to hire you and are not just saying that to get 2-3 months of free work from someone who already knows their stack

[near remnant]

The team leader who referred me told me everything, what to learn, etc. They just wanted me to build a project so we can talk about it during an interview.

[vapid jay]

my current place is offering 2 months minimum pay, and they were like were sad to say we cant pay you much.

[near remnant]

I've made a Python, flask, html, css, JavaScript, PostgreSQL, docker project. Its nothing crazy, but I learned a lot while doing it.

[vapid jay]

its food + rent + saving money

[vapid jay]

take homes are really not for me, if you can build it relatively fast it might be ok though

[near remnant]

Team lead also told me that they might question some things about my project but dont worry about the interview. We gonna talk about the work and "next steps". So, good chances?

[vapid jay]

if they referred you directly you might as well got the job

they just want to make sure youre not a donkeybrain by interviweng

[near remnant]

The team leader talked to the company and thats it. The internship wasnt even advertised.

[vapid jay]

google says 80% of jobs arent even advertised at all

[near remnant]

Yeah, its probably just for "formality". The team lead dev guys told me to have the interview as soon as possible so I can start learning the company stuff and not wasting my time learning by tutorials etc😅

[vapid jay]

that sounds very good. have fun in your new job.

[near remnant]

Well, im a perfectionist so I have negative thoughts and can never feel optimistic haha. But yeah, hopefully it will be fine. Thank you

Unfortunately, cant really focus on the interview at the moment bcus i will have my master's final exam, so it takes away all my time

[vast snow]

guys i don't know know anything

and want to be placed in Google

what do i need to start my road to google

[near remnant]

Bruh

[honest pivot]

Get a degree in CS, and be absolutely amazing

[whole ivy]

if anyone know about hackthebox :)

[analog sun]

Hello, don't post unapproved advertising and please respect channel topics. Thanks

[whole ivy]

okiee sorry :)

[whole ivy]

may i send it to somewhere else ?? or i can't send anywhere in server lol ???

[analog sun]

It doesn't seem to be related to anything that this server is involved in

[whole ivy]

okiee :) np

[near remnant]

I have a business economics bachelor's and master's

[gritty rivet]

You could clean their toilets? 😂 Are you saying you want to be a software engineer for them? Start by earning degrees in CS

[near remnant]

Working for google is just why, not worth it. Get a business degree and master's or get a CS degree. Work on projects and you will get a job.

[vapid jay]

Hi guys. I'm going to study computer engineering and this is one of the questions I got from the practice exam. I have no idea what this is nor how to solve it. Could somebody point me to the name of these things so I could research them?

[vast snow]

what if i get degree in IT field?

[near remnant]

Nothing? Even better!

[dreamy raft]

d

[vast snow]

thanks for the motivation

[vapid jay]

Answer is 2

I did this in engineering drawing classes. Not really hard at all

Got it. Where can I learn about this?

I've just never worked with this before, so even if it's simple I can't tell if I don't know the fundamentals.

[vapid jay]

I forgot to ask. What kind of a company do you recruit for

[vapid jay]

Its engineer drawing lessons. It doesnt have anything to do with CS.

It's for an entrance exam to my university.

Oh, that's interesting. Thanks for letting me know

[near remnant]

No worries. I switched to tech after two business / economics degrees. Mixing business knowledge and soft skills with technical skills such as programming is quite valuable nowadays.

[vast snow]

wow

[delicate bane]

do you find that its helped you with business requirements gathering/stakeholder management/communication/etc.?

[near remnant]

No, not like that, but I know many architects, lead devs, techleads who were a business / economics graduates and switched to tech

Dunno why but its a trend. Understandable

[near remnant]

What lmao

[alpine jacinth]

What’s the difference between a software engineer and a software developer?

[peak halo]

there really isn't one.

[delicate bane]

hmmmm

[near remnant]

Hmm

[delicate bane]

i think i might have some hypotheses, but i will hold off on voicing them until i gain more experience

[near remnant]

Go for it

Im curious

[light hornet]

#help-pretzel

[smoky quest]

hey your question has nothing to do with #career-advice . There is no reason to spam other channels

[vapid jay]

Anyone here using data analysis or ai
Within the field of psychology or neuroscience ?

[coarse crag]

elo, i just want to ask, would aws certs or some sort of the same level be enough to land a job in software engineering? (without a college degree)

[smoky quest]

no

AWS certs are about using AWS products. They don't make someone a software engineer

[coarse crag]

but a lot of companies are using aws services tho?

[smoky quest]

I am not in the field of psychology or neuroscience but it's better to just ask your question directly. You would get your answer faster and possibly from other relevant people

[smoky quest]

Lots of people are using pens, it doesn't make them architects or pets either

[coarse crag]

what would you recommend if college is too expensive (not an option)?

[vapid jay]

My question is relating to
Whether people do that
As I'm interested in it as a career path
I don't have a more specific question

[smoky quest]

depends on the country. Each country has their own options

[coarse crag]

i see. i thought of IT certifications because it makes sense to me outside of the college option, thanks btw

[smoky quest]

In these cases, I recommend to type your keywords in indeed or linkedin and see what kind of jobs come up. Ex: https://www.indeed.com/q-Neuroscience-Data-Scientist-jobs.html

[smoky quest]

IT certifications would prepare you for IT specific jobs.
If there were cheaper/faster/better alternatives to college, they would not be alternatives anymore 😉

[coarse crag]

i see i see, if i have decent understanding of computer science, like os, networking, algorithms, and data structures and i supplement those with certifications would it still not be enough?

[smoky quest]

depends on the culture of your country.
In the countries I am familiar with, it would not be sufficient

[coarse crag]

ah okok. thank you!

[smoky quest]

Even in the US where education is expensive, it would be worth going to college. Even at the cost of a student loan

[smoky quest]

For context, you saw the other person stating how they pay 32k$ / semester. Consider that on their first job, they will make 100k$/year

[coarse crag]

well, i'm in a developing country, so, going to a normal college seems like a waste of time and money for me.

[smoky quest]

tbh, I doubt it. But I am sure you know better about your country

[coarse crag]

yeah, i just think that i can learn 2x faster if i were to self learn the things i need

my principal in hs also said that college won't prepare me to be ready for jobs

i guess my question isn't really something to be discussed in this channel, i guess it's more of a personal decision

[smoky quest]

I doubt it on multiple points:

• I haven't seen it happen in practice
• You won't know what you need to know or have the supporting structure
• You will miss on your first professional network
• Companies will still prioritize anyone with a degree over you

[coarse crag]

yeah that's right

[smoky quest]

If you tell me that in your country, people get hired on the spot or that there are some lack of formality, sure. But otherwise, I doubt it

[finite otter]

yo any idea how to get internships in india

[coarse crag]

in my country, people with a degree can't do much. so i thought i should just focus on my actual skills

[finite otter]

just ddos companies on linkedn?

[smoky quest]

that doesn't sound right

[peak halo]

while I don't know the specifics of your country, I would add that even if you can learn "faster" on your own, you still have to convince the companies to which you're applying that you know it. whereas a degree comes with the guarantee that your university made sure you know the material to a defined standard.

[finite otter]

but thats where projects come in ...?

[coarse crag]

yeah that's what i'm trying to figure out, how to convince them without a college degree

[finite otter]

projects on resume my friend

[coarse crag]

doesn't sound right as in my statement is wrong or as in the situation of the country is messed up?

[smoky quest]

that's the point. You will need to spend 10x the effort for half the salary

[peak halo]

those are good to have, but they're not an alternative.

[smoky quest]

it sounds like an overbroad generalization

[finite otter]

hmmm then chuck in some coursera courses and projects

that should do it ?

[smoky quest]

It won't if most of your competition has a degree

[gritty rivet]

LOL why do we continue to have this same exact conversation every day 😂

[coarse crag]

oh hahaha, well, i should say lots of them don't know where to go and what to do even if they have a college degree, sure some are serious learner and more than ready to land a job after they graduated, but most only got to college because they don't really have a direction in life, that's why they lack actual skills that they need to be able to work professionally

[peak halo]

I can't speak for every company, but my company wouldn't even consider a candidate whose only relevant education is unaccredited courses.

[finite otter]

F

[smoky quest]

right. It's still a generalization. Like saying all the government workers are lazy and easy to bribe.
At the end, it's correlation vs causation and how is your competition

[coarse crag]

i was about to start a discussion of politics, but i realized it's no use and won't benefit me in any way. i just think i don't know enough about your country so it's hard for me to understand where you're coming from. but.. i really appreciate the replies. it will definitely be harder if i don't have a college degree. i'll try to figure it out. thank you so much!!

[smoky quest]

good luck!
Again, it comes down to your competition. As an employer, I don't care about you. I am not your mom or dad. I won't care if you succeed or have a good job. As an employer, I care that I get 100s of applicants and I pick the best one. Obviously I focus on the top 20. If in your country, these top applicants don't have a degree, then you could rise up. Otherwise you will stay at the bottom of the pile in most applications

[coarse crag]

i see i see, ok!

[smoky quest]

Furthermore, the rule of thumb is that a hiring manager will spend 30-45sec on each resume at most on the first pass. So you have less than a minute to convince them to call you back

[coarse crag]

well, i guess i'll have to push myself with the network then. trying to get connections just to get an interview.

thank you, and good luck to you too!

[smoky quest]

Thanks! good luck!

[native narwhal]

Guys I want to take AWS as an example for my question since I am learning web-dev daily with html/css/js(just starting) and I would definitely want to spent more than a year getting into Front End but it seems like many companies value those AWS certifications, and as a beginner I am not sure if those apply really for the Front End developers or the recruiters just add them on all job posts meaning both for the FE and the BE/FullStack positions
If anyone with a web dev job experience can give me an answer it'd be awesome

[gritty rivet]

What is the question? Whether you need an AWS certification to get your first job as a frontend developer? It wouldn't hurt but I wouldn't prioritize it over building a strong portfolio of projects

[brazen trail]

really that first AWS cert is mainly just a vocab quiz

if you have the time, sure, get it, but like was said above, some work for someone to look at would be better

[native narwhal]

thanks for the reply guys

I have just one follow up question regarding a REACT developer portfolio project I reviewed

if u answer me this i'd be extremely happy 🙂
so the website is this
https://designo-software-agency.vercel.app/

and it was done with React
but i have seen exact/very similar projects built with no JS what so ever

I don't get it I mean this can be built with just HTML CSS right? is it because of the Virtual DOM manipulation that React offers?

I was told that the Virtual DOM makes the web apps work a lot faster without reloading
so in my UN-EDUCATED opinion this must be the reason
am I right or totally off the rails
@brazen trail
@gritty rivet

[gritty rivet]

I have no idea, maybe try #web-development

[native narwhal]

😦

[brazen trail]

I don't know a lot about front end, but if it's easier to update a virtual dom than a 'real' dom, then sure it would make things snappier

[smoky quest]

you google what's available, you look for job ads to see what's out there, you try things out at home and ask questions to people in specific roles

Keep also in mind that the you from today will be very different from the you in 5-10 years

[brazen trail]

related, what you want from your career will likely change over the years

[topaz hound]

what country if you dont mind me asking>

[novel snow]

What’s your company?

[smoky quest]

Hi!
That has nothing to do about #career-advice .
On a side note, python is a programming language

Hi!
It's not a channel for shitposting

Hi!
It's not a channel for shitposting.
On a side note, python is a programming language

[ivory sluice]

hi everyone, this channel is indeed about career discussion!

[vapid jay]

L logo

[peak halo]

A research and development company

[dense mesa]

This channel is for career discussion, if you need help getting started then ask in #python-discussion

[vapid jay]

I already did but i was ignored 😥

[dense mesa]

So ask again or try claiming a help channel with #❓｜how-to-get-help

[vapid jay]

Today is pride month guys

companies feel bad for LGBTQ so they change their logo for them

[untold forge]

dont forget most discord servers

[dense mesa]

<@&831776746206265384> pretty distasteful and definitely not career related ☝️

[sudden yacht]

We celebrate many events that are important to our members. However, this is not a topic for this channel.

[novel snow]

Cool

[barren fox]

Hi everyone!
I am looking for a way to get an internship in AI related job

[karmic folio]

Hello

[lethal aurora]

Hi I am Mohanasriram from Chennai. Right now we are working on an short video sharing app. We need ML engineers for building recommendation model. Equity is availed. Anyone with prior knowledge in ML recommder . DM me

[barren fox]

Anyone can give a guidlines, how can I find such offers?

[sudden yacht]

Do not advertise or offer paid work on this server please. @lethal aurora

[near remnant]

im gonna have an HR screening today, basically just a phone screening but on Zoom. I assume the HR person wants me to turn on my camera during the interview. Sadly, my camera is broken and I can't turn on anything at the moment.

[barren fox]

No, I am not offering paid work I am asking for an advice to get an internship

[sudden yacht]

Call/email them and ask if that will be a problem. If it is, you may need to rearrange so you can get a camera. However, all my phone screenings have never involved a camera, so I don't think it will be an issue. Zoom /Video calls as a default is a very recent phenomenon 🙂

[sudden yacht]

Sorry, my bad.

[barren fox]

It's okay

[near remnant]

So dumb, anyways, thank you. I'll just join the call with my phone and won't turn my camera on. If they can't understand it, then whatever.

[outer dragon]

Hello everyone.

Is there a way to almost guarantee you'll get a job as a python developer even if it's a terrible one?

I'm thinking about these companies that train you "for free" and then make you sign a 2-year contract and they pay you poorly.

How little do they pay? At this point I'm getting desperate and I really don't have many options. None of my applications are getting any response.

[peak halo]

Sounds like you're talking about Revature. Don't sign with them no matter what.

On top of what you said, they can also force you to move anywhere in the US at your own expense

And the trainings they have you do are the same as watching YouTube videos. So they don't have any value once you leave the company you've been farmed out to.

How long have you been job hunting, anyway?

[near remnant]

Do people apply for internships even if they are not students? I'm going to graduate with my master's next week and a company wants to hire me as a Python Dev Intern (unpaid). Can I be an intern without student status?

I mean, the company knows that I'm graduating so idk

It doesn't even matter if it's unpaid?

[gilded valley]

yes, it's fairly common for people finishing university to do an internship if they can't find a permanent role they like the sound of

but - not unpaid, unpaid internships are a joke

it's not an internship at that point - just a worker working for them and not getting paid for it. It's illegal in many countries as well

so whilst internships aren't uncommon in your situation, this particular company sounds like one to avoid

[near remnant]

Ah okay, so I can basically be an intern even after graduating.

Thank you.

[gilded valley]

yes, but not long term. Usually it ends up being an extended interview process, where if you do well during the internship, you'll end up with an offer at the end of it

[near remnant]

Yeah, it's a 3 months long internship and it ends up with an offer. This is what you meant? I don't want to work as an intern forever 😂

[gilded valley]

yeah, exactly. But even the 3 months shouldn't be unpaid

[analog sun]

@severe widget is our preferred method for reporting

[gilded valley]

well modmail is more annoying to use

[near remnant]

I've made a "fullstack" project with the company's stack for the interview. If it's not enough for an unpaid internship then I'm done. More so because I've got referred to the unadvertised internship by the team leader dev. So..if I won't get it, I think I might quit programming lmao

[gilded valley]

The unpaid internship is almost certainly a bad idea regardless of whether they give you an offer for it or not

It might be different based on location - but I'dbe surprised if it were that differemt

[near remnant]

Do you think it's certain that I'll get the internship? 😂

[gilded valley]

what country are you in?

[near ocean]

why are you going for an unpaid internship again? i must have missed that part

[near remnant]

uk

[near remnant]

why not

[near ocean]

because youre not getting paid for it?