career-advice

[dusk gate]

I already picked them only 1 tech class and it's just intro

[summer roost]

I never took a computer programming class until college and life turned out fine. The most technical class I got to take in high school was a computer networking class.

[buoyant seal]

I made my final choice in 11th grade beginning I think. I needed to choose the exams to take

I gave a thought which disciplines I liked and made a combo out of them, fitting to get into uni

[dusk gate]

I'm in a small school with good facilities bad teachers (old school tech)

[summer roost]

well, there's nothing you can do about the high school that you're in, but it's likely to affect your future opportunities less than you expect.

[dusk gate]

Yeah

[summer roost]

if you get into a good university, no one will ever care what high school you went to.

[dusk gate]

True

If only I was into welding we have the best welding facility in the state, in highschool of course

[quartz igloo]

what is the slow mode time?

hello?

no

can anyone recommend any course for learning advanced python in youtube or somewhere for free?

[tired oak]

I am searching for a good course or project to work on as well, following!

[narrow kettle]

There is a big course by freecodecamp on YouTube https://youtu.be/rfscVS0vtbw

[gilded tiger]

hi. is the ATS resume tracker thing a big deal?

do i have to really care about that?

[honest pivot]

Welcome to the modern job search, where everybody needs to be an SEO expert

[gilded tiger]

lol

[gilded tiger]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKHEtdqhLK8&t

this is the best one on YT so far, beginner to advanced

[gilded tiger]

or else if u want a Google certification, check out that Crash Course on Python course on Coursera

[placid pasture]

Is the difference in Bch IT vs Bch CS a big deal in the corporate world? I work as a NOC Engineer currently so already in the industry, but want to be a dev and studying bch IT atm.

My place of work won't be where it happens for sure

[honest pivot]

I've seen a number of horror stories where someone has all sorts of advanced software dev qualifications and programming experience, but they don't get looked at because they neglected to mention MS Word.

It's more likely in big companies that have more formal hiring processes. The actual hiring manager doesn't give a shit about Word. But HR tacks it on because they've decided there's some set of minimum requirements to work in an office environment.

[gilded tiger]

hmm

[honest pivot]

And sometimes the hiring manager is powerless to do anything about it. They might even think nobody has applied, because HR is pre-screening and never forwards anyone to them.

[gilded tiger]

that sucks

where do u live btw? does that happen in every country?

[honest pivot]

I think it mostly depends on the company. It's horribly ineffective for obvious reasons. But some companies get so many applications, it doesn't really matter if you throw out some qualified ones for dumb reasons.

[gilded tiger]

hmm

[honest pivot]

I mean if you get 300 applications for one position, nobody actually has the time to look at them. So you use some automated system to throw most of them out. It doesn't even really matter if you accidentally throw out some good ones.

[gilded tiger]

idk how i'm gonna make it bro
legit scared
and i've got a shitty CGPA

[pastel junco]

I want to level up my programing skills, can anyone give some reference work or some problem set?

[honest pivot]

CGPA?

[gilded tiger]

yeah, it's like GPA but on a 10 pointer scale

[honest pivot]

Ah. If your grades aren't good, just don't put them on your CV (unless that's a huge red flag in your country, I dunno).

[gilded tiger]

yeah i haven't put them there

my uni has this program where every student goes for 2 internships - 2 + 5.5 months. and it's graded as it is part of the degree courses

[honest pivot]

Do some projects to show your ability. Send out tons of applications. It may take a few hundred applications over a several months. Once you get in somewhere and gain some actual experience, it will be easier to move up.

[gilded tiger]

and the way they select us for the first internship is mainly through our CGPA and maybe, some companies care about our CVs too

[gilded tiger]

hmm yeah, i've got a lot of stuff lined up to learn

[blazing shell]

straight out ds studies with not much actual ds experience, do you think a sports trader position is a good step forward for a more technical role in ds later on?

[cloud notch]

anyone knows polish here?

[west estuary]

Anyone know the best place to start finding python contracts in the UK?

[last ermine]

ching cheng han ji

[vivid ferry]

I want to make lots of money

[cosmic axle]

Don’t we all lad

[obsidian acorn]

Nope, not all of us. More money, more proble.

[devout sand]

more probe more fun

[eternal mist]

My guy

[dense mesa]

More fun more money

[devout sand]

and the cycle goes on

[misty harbor]

Hi

[vapid jay]

Hello world!

[placid peak]

hey, is it realistic to find an online job with one years of experience

an entry level job would be great since i just wanna get experience even a low-mid salary would make me happy

if yes where do i find them ? without getting scammed by indians ;)\

[near ocean]

Have you tried LinkedIn, indeed, local job boards?

[fringe lily]

If I'm fresh from Uni and I know a bit of pytorch and how to use the bash, should I put in on my resume?

[gritty rivet]

If you're prepared to answer questions in an interview in those topics, sure

[sudden quartz]

I am not a hiring manager for data science roles. However, A seems better for you scenario. If you want to showcase skill, its common sense to build a website with dashboards, etc. Data Science is about communication and visuals just as much as it is about data. So you dont want to neglect your dashboard. Make the MVP for showcasing your knowledge of the math and models. Data Science people are looking for good mathematicians

[gritty rivet]

Yes, I don't know what country you're in but here in the US I know plenty of new bootcamp grads like myself getting hired 100% remote

[sudden quartz]

linkedin perhaps has become too competitive and mainstream

[placid peak]

damn im currently in egypt but originally french, do they take fluent in english french citizens for work? Dx

[placid peak]

fluent in english , french citizens

[placid peak]

and what bootcamp did you take?

damn do you mind telling me where i can apply or what sources i should check?

in advance , thanks for the answers i get. In egypt the community is weak . So i pretty much clueless

[narrow kettle]

Learn a skill, provide value to people, work hard

[summer cloud]

(old snakes alternative account) basically there are few programmers who are actually good here. Plus like there are no actually communities(or companies) coming and helping others out (for example this discord). You can find a job here but you have to have 5 years experience and work for below the international average(like 500 - 1000 dollars for many years of experience) So thats why i want work remotely, so i can get paid fairly and actually get some good experience

my bad for any mistakes while writing , busy cookin :0

[summer cloud]

I forgot 1 detail , im not saying there arent good but I can't find them easily

Tryed linkedin first ngl but local stuff sucks

Talking about projects imma work on that but in general I've done several websites which im proud of but ill do some more

[frosty sail]

yo not saying you're wrong here but you could be delivering this same message in a much less rude way

keep the software community an inviting place please

[summer cloud]

Well for now , im a nobody (going uni next year) ,I love programming ,spent 4 hours everyday programming or more.I currently know flask and django really well

[summer cloud]

Your right, but he honest about it I can't say he is wrong

[vapid jay]

Ditto Raymond. You were once a beginner too, YoDaddyM.

[summer cloud]

I didn't mean anything against indians just a friend of mine got scammed recently , so my bad man 😂

[vapid jay]

Keep at it. Keep doing what you enjoy. You will get there!

[summer cloud]

Talking about age , im 20 rn and have general work experience (im a teacher:D for 4 years) so i just want relavent experience in the field (as i mentioned earlier i do not care about salaries)

[summer cloud]

Hopefully one day man 🙏

[vapid jay]

Yes, but it’s a valid attitude based on his experience. The better approach is to tell him to learn from your mistakes. He is not doing anything wrong with reaching out here.

[summer cloud]

Damn i need to better say my thoughts out cuz i didn't mean to say companies to go out their way to find me 😂

But in general there are no companies here which give work without the 5 year experience

In egypt most of the stuff is found through connections

Which I don't have so im trying my luck here ;)

[frosty sail]

yeah I don't think anyone who is not living in egypt is going to be able to give you very useful career advice that would apply to your search in egypt

[vapid jay]

^

[frosty sail]

other than incredibly generic stuff like "learn more" "put good work on your public repositories"

[summer cloud]

Im trying find work out of Egypt

Egyptian salaries suck lol

[frosty sail]

ah okay I was confused with what you meant by "here" but I get it now

[summer cloud]

Its aight just i spent the last 3 months trying to find work and still am

Im moving to Belgium for uni (cyber security) and really wanted a part time job since my parents can't help me :D

[honest pivot]

Does Belgium provide any support to uni students?

[frosty sail]

finding a first job (at least here in the US in tech) can be really, really hard. Most people I know that got into the field in the last few years had to apply for literally hundreds of jobs before finding one. Consistency is key

[summer cloud]

(in the field so I won't struggle finding a job after uni) plus im new to this so i can say somethings what might not make sence

[summer cloud]

I think they do but im getting ready for worst case scenario

[frosty sail]

the blessing of online job application is everyone has tons of options - the curse is that everyone has tons of options, so everyone is picky

[summer cloud]

Facts

[honest pivot]

At least with a French passport, all of Europe is open to you. Gotta get that degree first though.

[summer cloud]

Yuppp hopefully i do :D

But thanks for the advice everyone.Just speaking to you guys gave me some hope of finding a job or atleast some solutions.Ill continue programming hard and I'll continue building my websites . Thx again ;D

[near ocean]

You dont need a SWE job if youre struggling with money at uni
You could just get any job to help you with the finances, a SWE is ideal but if your choices are any job vs starving just go with any job

[summer cloud]

That's very true but im trying to get a remote job.Maybe I'll get lucky

Before i get to uni, i have 6 months ;D

[near ocean]

Youre going to struggle finding a remote job without a degree or relevant experience
Also i dont think its a simple as getting a job and then moving wherever, are you searching for remote jobs in Belgium or where you currently are?

[summer cloud]

Yeah , I'm doing both currently and i understand my situation but I'm trying anyway. If it doesn't work out , i can always work as a waiter .Just i like programming alot so i wanna get a job in the same field

Dude idk but i had perfect grade plus im 20 😭

My gpa is 3.85🙏

Plus my education is free in Belgium so it's aight

The french documents really help me here

Im a 20 year old french citizen who decided to change Fields after covid.I finished school and have gpa of 3.85 .I have 1 year experience with programming and 6 months experience with django and recently started flask. I have a good sence of backend and frontend and I'm going to uni in 6 months and need a job to support me. I would really like to find a job now so I won't suffer finding a job later after uni.

(i have good amount of experience with JavaScript aswell :D)

[buoyant seal]

In my country there is only one easy IT related job to enter: system administrator, which is sort of synonym to help support

I was in this job four years while I was in university.
Conviniently my university hired me for this

Duties were silly. Installing OSes, repairing small printer problems or contacting those who could do serious repairs. Rarely a bit of Linux server attempts to repair smth, like just restarting samba file server

Installing office programs
Helping with some difficult application problems

[pastel junco]

I want to level up my programing skills, can anyone give some reference work or some problem set?

[summer cloud]

Sounds pretty good, I'll try to get into help support. I think realistically i can get into it. I have several languages. Thanks for sharing your experience :)

Long story short: I was a dance teacher and i was a good one.But covid tool everything from me .So now im changing fields since the dancing/theatre side of things have no stability

Yeah thats right, that's what im doing rn but as someone mentioned earlier its not easy without experience or a degree. And yes i can get a job there and easily with my experience working with people and children but as i mentioned earlier i really wanna get into IT before i get to Belgium. Plus my bad if i said smth wrong about egypt i really like it here , spent my whole life but you know the salaries are bad unless you work an international company

I understand the situation I'm in but if you never try, you lost already. Plus the inflation in egypt is crazy compared to salaries thats one thing for sure. Fiver , on the other hand , im investing my time there and trying to put my project for display.

about indians , i did not mean anything bad about them . They're a great force in general . What i meant earlier about indians was a story about a friend of mine being scammed by them( he thought he joined an American company, that "company" asked him for some fees from him for some random stuff. He got scammed 200 euro.) So i when i said that I meant i don't wanna get employed be the same "american" company

Yeah, I agree with you. I guess I'll wait but at the same time , I don't wanna be idle.

Yes , my friend is an idiot. I know that for sure😂.

Belgium is comfortable for me because uni is cheap and the area is cheaper while salaries are sufficient. Plus in my experience france has been to cold and in general aggressive compared to the nice and friendly culture we have here(i was in paris). In Belgium i have a friend (who is also from egypt but he has money so no issues for work). Belgium is a country I want to explore and I'll be in the centre of europe.

[summer cloud]

In my experience travelling europe. Germany was super friendly, Poland ,Italy,Greece. All of them were. But i have a bad experience with france as a whole. So i wouldn't wanna go there.

In Belgium, I have friends there and tell me its amazing.The uni its self, is easy to enter. So i have a 99 percent chance to be accepted.

The benefits are equal in bith countries. So its a matter of choice. But in general im really happy you shared your opinion

Im really happy your friend got a job. It makes more sure ill get one !

Everything you said is right.

But im committed to programming , its a profession I genuinely enjoy. I had joy which I usually don't have for other stuff.So im sure i want to be in the field. 1 year in, I can say i really do enjoy it.

About uni , The deadline for french (eu) citizens is non existent, meaning i can apply one day before opening.

I've lived in greece for over the year. Other countries for several months. But france , 2 weeks , that place was evil 😂😂

I've started applying now, just gathering documents. Don't have alot left. Need to pass and English exam.

Why not cyber security? Its a fun field with a good employment rate and good salaries.

Yeah, its most likely Paris 😂

[quiet wing]

I am really confused on what to learn C++ or C#.. I am really into game development. If you guys can share ur opinions i would really appreciate it!

ur a bot

:O read #rules then

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384> unapproved advertising and can we also get some cleanup

[summer cloud]

Really? I guess I'll do some more research.

Yeah, ill take the pc exam and ill do it in like a week. Im currently in hurghada so ill have to travel for a few hours by bus.

[quiet wing]

can someone answer this please?

[summer cloud]

There is one near giza which has the pc ones ill check rn

[cold shuttle]

That depends if you want to use Unity or a different game engine. (Maybe even make your own?) If you are going for Unity you should learn C#, as it's main scripting language inside Unity. I know that Unreal Engine uses C++, but I haven't seen any good documentation for C++ Unreal programming

[marble haven]

programming is like my favorite thing to do i dont wanna work at programming i will get sick of it

anyone feels the same

[cold shuttle]

Yeah, I feel the same about it

[halcyon coyote]

im a beginner but i made my first project 😄

[cold shuttle]

Cool! What did you do?

[halcyon coyote]

An Ai

3 weeks and 11 hours of anger i did!

[cold shuttle]

You say that you are a beginner, and you just made an AI? wow, that's cool!

[halcyon coyote]

its more like Voice Assistant cause i didnt made machine learning yet 😄

[cold shuttle]

That's sounds very cool!

[halcyon coyote]

Can I Dm You And send you The Video Of My Ai? i would be happy to flex 😄

[cold shuttle]

Sure!

[vapid jay]

i guess C# is better to learn if u r into game stuffs as some big companies use it
and for game development in game engine too that is your- Unity,Unreal Engine etc and CPP is more in software eng

Guys i have questions too but i need some professional to answer me bcz i want some guidance DM ME pls :)

[smoky quest]

Professional answers can also happen here 😉

[vapid jay]

Dm me!

[smoky quest]

no, unless there is something highly personal or identifiable

[vapid jay]

yea its personal thats why

[smoky quest]

I am afraid of the highly personal things I could see with you

[rugged obsidian]

Oh shoot

Like which one

[smoky quest]

oh no, that's actually 👏 awesome 👏 !
Contrary to HS which can seem like just about memorizing random things, the maths in college are a lot more interesting. Like have you ever wondered how jpeg and other types of compression works? Well, you are gonna learn about it with fourrier transforms and possibly wavelets
Have you wonder how CDROM can still be read even after being badly scratched? Well, you are gonna learn about how error code correction works.
Have you wondered how the encryption and signature works? As you have probably guessed, you are gonna see that as well.

So all in all, the math after HS is a lot more interesting and rewarding

[summer roost]

you're likely to need classes on Linear Algebra, Calculus, and Statistics. You may need Discrete Mathematics or Cryptography as well, in addition to more abstract things like logic and graph theory.

[shell orchid]

when are you good enough to work as a python developer? is there like things required to know

[summer roost]

have you gone to university yet?

[shell orchid]

no

[summer roost]

going to university for Computer Science or Software Engineering is the simplest path to getting a job as a software developer

if you can afford the time and money to do so, getting the degree is the best possible investment - unless you're already a mid-career professional looking to transition to software development from some other tech job, at least.

[shell orchid]

kinda late im 25

[summer roost]

well, do you have any degree? What have you been doing since high school?

[rugged obsidian]

Oooh make sens , so is it a harder type of math or less harder type of math also thx for the info

[rugged obsidian]

That’s a lot woah 🤯

[shell orchid]

just working

math is just boring lol

[summer roost]

you're not really giving a lot of information that would let anyone give you useful career advice. What kind of work have you been doing?

[summer roost]

not necessarily more or less hard, but perhaps more practical and less abstract.

[shell orchid]

worked at a retail store l:/

[rugged obsidian]

Ahh I see

Did u do it ?

[summer roost]

do what? Those math classes? I never took Discrete Math, but I did take the others.

[summer roost]

ok, so nothing even related to software. Well, like I said: if you're able to afford to go back to school and get a degree, that's doing things the easy way. You may be able to self teach enough to get a job as a developer without a degree, but it's a much harder path - you'll lose out on having guidance and instruction about what to learn in what order, you'll lose out on the opportunity to form relationships with classmates and use them as the start of your professional network, and you'll lose out on internship opportunities, on top of losing out on the piece of paper that certifies that you've learned as much as other CS graduates have.

if you want to break into the industry but can't afford the time or money to get a degree, you'll likely need to build a portfolio of polished personal projects that you can use to show off your knowledge and useful skills, and then apply to tons of jobs until you find someone willing to take a chance on you. Or, alternatively, freelance for a while, making well below the market rate just to have some professional work experience under your belt that you can use to sell yourself to a company.

[frosty sail]

Boot camps are an option, but somewhat controversial

[summer roost]

yeah - boot camps are much less helpful in landing a job than a degree, but much more helpful than self teaching with no structured curriculum. Lots of boot camps try to place you at jobs at the end, even if they inflate those stats artificially at times.

[frosty sail]

Doing a boot camp and then going back and trying to work in the same industry you came from, but in the software side, is a path I’ve seen quite a few people take. Then your job experience prior to software is more relevant/relatable

[summer roost]

yeah, though that doesn't help much when the prior job was retail. That works much better for people moving from the business side to the software dev side of a business (and that's why I asked what job they've been doing)

I don't see a lot of room to relate retail experience to software dev, whereas something like - I don't know, a stock trader might be able to relate their existing expertise to a software job writing trading algorithms, or something like that.

by what?

someone who knows how the equity market works would have a bit of a leg up when applying for a software job at a financial tech firm, I meant.

[frosty sail]

You’re underestimating the value of relevant practical experience, i think. I know a couple folks who worked in art or graphic design and do front end work, and people who worked as lab assistants, learned software and now work in various positions in companies that value having that practical domain knowledge as well as some programming

[high aurora]

What’s the programming job that gets the most money?

[frosty sail]

I’m sure a company like square making products for retail employees would not look down on someone with retail experience applying for a software job with a bit less experience than average

[high aurora]

What

[frosty sail]

Was responding to godlygeek mostly

[summer roost]

I don't think I am - I just don't think retail experience is a rare enough commodity to be a big competitive advantage when applying for a software dev job. I agree that either types of experience that are more specialized can have quite a lot of value. I suppose retail experience might be useful for a company that makes POS systems or inventory systems or something like that, but it just seems like a shallower domain that requires less skill to train someone up in than, say, financial markets or graphic design.

I could be wrong, I suppose - that's admittedly nowhere near the domain I work in.

[high aurora]

Idk if my dad wants me to code because he thinks it doesn’t make money but I really want to become one

[frosty sail]

Indeed. And within software it’s kind of a pointless question who makes the most. There are differences but they’re fairy small and in the big picture almost everyone writing software for a job makes a lot of money

Well your dad is wrong, not sure where he got that idea

But don’t go telling him some dude on discord told you he’s wrong. That won’t go well

[high aurora]

My only option is like a Doctor or something and lol Raymond

Oklahoma

[summer roost]

that depends on the company, FWIW. there are companies where software devs make more than their team leads - and there's a lot of variability in comp for software devs at the upper eschelons

[frosty sail]

I’m a doctor (of engineering), I write code

And I make a lot more money than my classmates who don’t write code

[summer roost]

ah, like C-suite? Far enough.

[high aurora]

Oh that’s cool. I could move if Oklahoma doesn’t make much money

[frosty sail]

But your mileage may vary

[high aurora]

I know that’s why dad wants me to be one

LOL

[frosty sail]

They don’t make more than software engineers- not in the USA anyway. Not after you factor in the student debt for sure

[summer roost]

Doctors wind up with a lot more student debt than software developers.

and software developers in the US can easily make over 6 figures.

[frosty sail]

They’re both jobs with an intensity that’ll make you figuratively and possibly literally kill your self if you force yourself into it and hate it sooo

[summer roost]

sure, at the cost of at least 6 extra years of school and lots of student loan debt

[frosty sail]

Don’t do something just cus your dad thinks itll make money

[high aurora]

Ok thanks for the advice everyone and Raymond gasper

[smoky quest]

average depends on the location. I wouldn't be so sure in the hcol

ah yeah, definitely. Makes sense too since they aren't doing average things

[summer roost]

that's a different point than I was making. Even if an average medical doctor makes more per year than an average software developer, they start their career at least 6 years later and with a much lower net worth, so they need many years of higher salary just to catch up to the software developer, even if they make more per year.

[frosty sail]

MD PhD in bioinformatics, for the real sadists

Stay in school/training until you’re 35

[high aurora]

Ok

[frosty sail]

Yeah honestly since Mxnatees is a kid, I’d have hope that by the time they hypothetically become a doctor the industry would be less toxic, cus right now it’s a disaster. Absolutely terrible job

It’s a big country. I didn’t do that, someone else might tho

[high aurora]

That hasn’t happened yet to me

Ok thank you

[summer roost]

if a software dev makes a million (or $1000k) in those 6 years, and a medical doctor makes -$200k in those 6 years (thanks to student loans), then if from that point forward the MD makes $250k/year and the SWE makes $125k, the MD would take 10 years to catch up. That's disregarding interest on the student loans (and credit card debt, etc), and assuming that the MD makes 2x the SWE (which I think is overly generous, but 🤷)

[high aurora]

Yeah hopefully I can convince him

And omg godly geek did some research

[summer roost]

math, not research 🙂

[high aurora]

Oh nice job

[summer roost]

https://www.levels.fyi/ might help you convince your dad that software engineers can be very well paid.

[smoky quest]

How far off are these numbers? Because they are not impressive

[high aurora]

@summer roost oh thanks

He’s a plastics engineer he does molds and like foam

lol

So I decided to try to become a phychistrist but he said they don’t make much so idk what to do

[summer roost]

most software devs in the US make 6 figures. None of the friends that I'm close enough with to ask about salary make less than $150k / year

[smoky quest]

Continue doing more research and making lists of pros/cons. You are on the right track.

Note that if you are willing to move to a hcol area for software dev jobs, you can likely make more than a MD before they get out of school

[summer roost]

compounding interest is a huge consideration, too - a software dev can be earning interest on their income while MDs are still in school/training and accruing interest on their debt.

[midnight totem]

facts

[smoky quest]

also the risks/danger profile is different and no blood (just avoid robots)

[high aurora]

@kind oar what do you do now?

[summer roost]

you're a whole lot less likely to kill or maim someone as a SWE than an MD, too.

[high aurora]

Oh

[summer roost]

uh - I've never heard of financial analysts in the US getting anywhere near as much money as software engineers

[light radish]

I'll be giving my 2 weeks notice tomorrow, if my employer asks what company I am going to what is a nice way of not telling them?

[summer roost]

"I'd rather not say" is fine. It's none of their business.

[light radish]

I don't care if they know once I start, just don't want any jealousy at play before now and then. Also most of them don't even have linkedin lol

[high aurora]

Or just say “I found a couple options” wait nvm that won’t work

[summer roost]

glassdoor says that a financial analyst in NYC makes on average $84k/year, and a software engineer in NYC makes on average $135k/year

[midnight totem]

dang

[high aurora]

Pretty good average

[frosty sail]

The low values for doctors salaries are for when they are in training. All doctors in training in the us have a salary fixed by the us government, around $67K per year before taxes

[summer roost]

For my city, glassdoor says ~$93k for a software engineer on average, and ~$73k for a financial analyst.

I really don't think it's as close as you think - in my experience, SWEs make much more than financial analysts on average.

[high aurora]

I guess I have reference because I am lucky to have this one friend who has like parents who are doctors and the wife is a treasurer of a bank he’s like that one rich kid

Well if your job is not stressful and is ok and you have time to do stuff you want it sounds cool

[summer roost]

glassdoor says average for director of finance in NYC is ~$182k, director of technology is $207k

[frosty sail]

I don’t really know if that’s true, but whatever

The differences are negligible IMO. All these careers can support a good standard of living

[summer roost]

I don't know many mid career software engineers who work more than 45 hours per week.

I get paid to learn and stay update to date. So, 🤷

I'm not convinced you're correct about the US labor market, but none of the statistics I've brought to bear have convinced you, so... I'm not sure what more there is to say.

[gritty rivet]

You could tell them something general ("oh it's a small startup") and/or just lie. There should really be nothing wrong with saying 'I prefer not to say'

I'm curious to know the details myself though :)

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[gritty rivet]

1 day actually... Overwhelming but good so far :)

[summer roost]

no, but I don't see any reason to continue this topic.

[frosty sail]

Those numbers can’t be true , can they? That’s so much lower than I’d expect

Fair point. Tho equity is often worth little to nothing

Heck I have a friend who actually lost a lot of money b/c of his equity after his company went public b/c of accounting particulars and taxes

[summer roost]

equity in a non-public company is Monopoly money.

[frosty sail]

Listen those yellow and blue pieces of paper mean something to me /s

[summer roost]

startup success is much more about luck and whether the market you believed existed actually does than about anyone's personal skill.

over 90% of startups fail within 5 years.

[smoky quest]

I was including both low and high ranges. But yeah, the low were already pretty low

[frosty sail]

Ah well. Yeah those high numbers are wrong. Maybe they’re the high range of the average by state or something?

Specialists can make wayyyyyy more than that. But PCPs make a bit less.

[obtuse ridge]

yo my friends are made of diamonds and gold they're willing to pitch in 300 bucks to help me pay for a PCAP test

got it mate. i'll keep that in mind

[rugged obsidian]

do u need to go to college or university for computer science ?

[frosty sail]

no, but it makes it a lot easier to get hired

[rugged obsidian]

wait u can study it by your own?

[frosty sail]

yes many people in software are self-taught

or do bootcamps and so that is formal education, but they don't have a degree in CS

[smoky quest]

You can do anything on your own, including studying how to cure illnesses and sicknesses. But your likelyhood to be hired and have a successful career will dramatically increase with your education

[frosty sail]

degrees somewhat tangential to CS are also very good for entry into software. Any STEM degree, basically, will make it a lot easier to get into those first few jobs.

then after you've been working in the same career for five or ten years no one cares what your education is, unless it's a really highly specialized job, or the people you're working for are pricks

however I like to share that the most talented and easy to work with software engineer I've ever had the pleasure of working with didn't even finish high school

[rugged obsidian]

make sense

[frosty sail]

by the time he was 25 he already had ten years of professional software experience, so following my rule up there, by then nobody cared anymore

[rugged obsidian]

you are right

[rugged obsidian]

wait fr?

i just heard it ask for alot of math thats why im kinda lost

[frosty sail]

I'm just some dude on the internet, but yes

one does not need to go to school to be good at math. Or anything for that matter. Going to school is for most of us the easier path, however

[smoky quest]

It's a bit more nuanced than that. Think correlation vs causation.
It's not because you have a degree that on its own, it will make you magically have a high career.
However it should not come as a surprise that the more educated you are, the more knowledgeable you will be (on average) and the deeper you can go, which in turns helps you go further and ahead.

With regards to self taught, in my experience, a lot of them will max out at a somewhat senior level and will have harder time going beyond, especially if it relates to abstract reasoning.
So no, the degree will not be specifically looked for after 10 years, but you will have much harder time getting there without it

[rugged obsidian]

thats crazy

[rugged obsidian]

thank you so much for the clarification

[frosty sail]

I would note that "somewhat senior level" is a totally dope level to max out at

[smoky quest]

And besides these points, your classmates will be your first professional network, which can also help a lot your career and finding opportunities

[rugged obsidian]

oh i see

[rugged obsidian]

im not the best at math , do u think i can still do it?

[smoky quest]

The maths aren't that bad. You will most likely be fine

[rugged obsidian]

did u do computer science?

[smoky quest]

yeah

[rugged obsidian]

was it hard to learn

[smoky quest]

it's difficult to define hard. It depended mostly on how much interest it got from me. So it's difficult to generalize

But overall, that's not the main reasons for students to drop out (from what I have seen)

[rugged obsidian]

oh what do u think is the reaosn

[smoky quest]

The main cause for drop outs were students taking it easy and skipping classes, at least for I have seen/experienced

[rugged obsidian]

lol make sense , but i saw also its strees full

[smoky quest]

There were a bunch of students who were coming from less mathematical backgrounds or were scared of it, but they all have graduated.
80% of the job as a student is to show up

As I mentioned earlier, the maths are a lot more practical and interesting than in HS. So don't expect the same boring ways

[rugged obsidian]

ohh now i want to do it more cuz it seems intressting but i was kinda lost

[quiet wing]

yeah started learning that , ty

[lethal saffron]

hey what kind of projects could I do to start building a professional github. need some ideas 🙂

[smoky quest]

It mostly depends on the type of role you are aiming for, your current level and where your interests lie. So something in one of the lists returned from google such as:

• https://github.com/florinpop17/app-ideas
• https://github.com/The-Cool-Coders/Project-Ideas-And-Resources
• https://github.com/karan/Projects

[lethal saffron]

thank you !

[buoyant seal]

I skipped 95% of lections during university time.
Because it is not my format to learn.

Still graduated ;)

Partially because we had transparent system what is counting towards final score.

Lections were not awarded, or had small enough award to be skipped in most of cases. There were some exceptions

[smoky quest]

While admirable, I would not consider that the normal path and not the typical outcome of skipping lectures

[buoyant seal]

Point taken.
Audio way is just not my way of learning completely.
I learn by practice, docs and books.

[storm raft]

If you want to showcase skill, its common sense to build a website with dashboards, etc. Data Science is about communication and visuals just as much as it is about data. So you dont want to neglect your dashboard. Make the MVP for showcasing your knowledge of the math and models. Data Science people are looking for good mathematicians

thank you! seems like i would cover both grounds, hopefully it would payoff in the longterm! 🙂

[obtuse talon]

sup
i wonder if there is any website that pays you to write a code

anyone aware of it ?

[deft pelican]

write a code? You mean like an employer?

[topaz fjord]

Hello

What are some good projects, that look good in a portfolio?

[graceful mason]

What sort of area are you looking to apply to?

[topaz fjord]

In the social media or web3 branche.

And mostly backend but i am good in js too, + C#

[buoyant seal]

it sounds like freelancing web sites, Freelancer.com, Upwork, Fiverr and e.t.c

[obtuse talon]

thanks !!!

[buoyant seal]

u a welcome. Although I could warn you, that seeing how you asked question, you probably aren't really ready for a job perhaps

It would be probably better to try seeking some sort of internship level positions in your case

[gritty rivet]

#1 follow your interests. If you're inherently interested in something, it shows in your results. Can be any fun thing, personal hobby or whatever (as long as it's not wildly offensive, illegal, etc.!)

#2 do something real, not just practice. Solve a problem that hasn't been solved, do something on a voluntary basis for a friend or an organization. It's more impressive if your project is getting real use

#3 follow the needs of potential employers. Identify your ideal job and do something relevant to them

[tawny urchin]

Hi

[topaz fjord]

i thought i'd do data collection on twitter trends and then would search news articles for it

[dawn prawn]

hello guys

is it possible to get data entry job remotely for cs student

in USA

[gritty rivet]

Data entry? I haven't seen a lot of those jobs since back in the 90s. I think most of it has been automated... Unless you mean something else?

Anyway, just look up job listings and apply

[pure spruce]

.

[earnest egret]

data entry job should be very easy to get, i doubt u need any cs experience

why dont u try getting a web dev entry level job if u a cs student?

[near ocean]

data entry doesnt need any experience, we have interns here that do that kind of stuff

[near ocean]

They get paid, whats so scummy about it

wdym cheap labour lmao, they get london wages for opening a couple excel files and adding stuff to them
how much would you pay for something like that

[honest pivot]

Getting a wage while being in London is not the same as getting a "London wage"

[near ocean]

wages while being in london are adjusted for cost of living, what else would "london wage" mean

youre being awfully idealistic, the company needs some hands to handle some data stuff, they hire kids usually out of high school for like 6 months to help, their title is "Intern"
what's scummy about it

its not for CS students, its not for junior software devs

so its the word i used that bothers you? fine then, we hire "fixed term contractors" to help with our data entry

i dont see how its misleading personally

data entry isnt all they do, its just something only they do
they still get experience from other things, like sales, account management, they get to go to client meetings, etc
the title is more appropriate than "fixed term contractor" anyway

[dawn prawn]

Hahah ok thanks

[honest pivot]

I know what you mean. I also know it's a joke and most London jobs pay shockingly low.

[neon zephyr]

Hi everyone,
i finished half of my uni courses in CS
and i wonder if i can get a part time remote job in software
ik alot of Python, C and Java
are there any websites or any advice recommended to check jobs?

[gritty rivet]

Part-time jobs in programming aren't super common, but you could try freelancing. Someone just listed all the common platforms for that earlier today so just scroll up or search

[misty harbor]

Hi

[rugged obsidian]

if i want to become a CS should i start practicing java , python or c+ ( im kinda new in this_

[peak halo]

it's up to you and what your goals are. in this server, you're going to get answers that are partial to Python. If you want to get a university education, I would look at schools you might want to attend and see what programming languages they use in their courses.

The CS program I attended had no expectation that you knew any amount of programming, and they mostly decided if you could enroll based on your math grades. Again, I would look at CS programs that you might want to attend and ask them what they look for in prospective students.

[rugged obsidian]

ohhhh thanks for the anwser , what if i want to do cs for a company like coinbase or paypal which one would be better

[peak halo]

Of the three languages you listed, C++ is usually the fastest, but is not intended to be approachable for beginners. Java is more approachable for beginners and is popular with businesses, but is probably going to drop in popularity in the future. Python is approachable for beginners, but there aren't as many career tracks that use it primarily.

If you get a job in data science, Python will probably be the main language that you use (it is for me in that career type). If you get a job in web development, you might use Python for some things, but you'll definitely have to use other languages as well.

[peak halo]

I don't know what languages they use. Your google is as good as mine on that one

[summer roost]

almost all real world software development jobs require you to know several languages.

[rugged obsidian]

ah okay cuz i was looking into the 3 and i saw that python was better for beginners but like u said less carrer with it but like u said i might go with web devlopment and ty man

[rugged obsidian]

thank for the info

[latent mountain]

Hello!

[lime pond]

java is such a good language

[latent mountain]

I have an interview Monday. The guy that’s interviewing me has 20 years experience. I’ve been coding for 10 years. Studying for 3 and barely working on my GitHub (my best project is an Instagram bot). I’ve learned fundamental Python. Yet, I have no professional experience nor enterprise type projects. What are the chances of me getting hired? I have no college degree.

[lime pond]

sad news alert ||i have been coding for 3 years and even i have made a instagram bot, which posts quotes using an api and gets an image puts it under it and has some good results||

[latent mountain]

@lime pond Thanks lol

[lime pond]

https://dev.to/ryandaghost/lets-make-an-quote-of-the-day-instagram-bot-3lbk i even made a blog post

[brittle thorn]

Play with the cards you have, the fact that you got to the interview stage means that they have some interest in you even with your deficits...good luck

[nimble jetty]

guys what i need to learn to work

like data analytics or machine learning

what i already tried to program(RPG GAME, Excel Automation with visualization)

i need something impress

[nimble jetty]

or give a project idea

[gritty rivet]

I agree with technotanuki, it really doesn't matter what your chances are. You do the best you can and if it works out, great. If not doesn't, you learn from it and keep trying. There's no way to predict the outcome and no reason to try to

[livid plume]

Hi, I don't know which career path to choose. Is there a way to find out? Can I get an internship if I only know Python but not specific tools/frameworks like Django, PyTorch, etc.?

[vapid jay]

Hlo

[lilac jolt]

hey

@livid plume do you have a portfolio showcasing work you've done? A degree in CS? I'm certain you could get in somewhere if you have some strong fundamentals

[livid plume]

No. I don't have a degree in CS or strong fundamentals. I am very demotivated at the moment. My biggest program was a simple TicTacToe program without gui, which I created some years ago.

[lilac jolt]

well, all that being the case, it's good to know where you are

I find myself curious beyond python now

what are you interested in by programming?

[livid plume]

Because of lack of path or clarity I am going in circles. I was better at programming 5 years ago than now.

[livid plume]

That's the problem. I was so passionate about programming. But now I don't know what I actually like. Maybe its hobby vs making a profession.

[lilac jolt]

that's an interesting concept to explore

for me, my interest in programming dies down when I don't have a project I'm engaged in

[charred juniper]

honestly, is it worth it going into a career in coding? thats me asking a question not trying to make a point ftr

[lilac jolt]

good question Potato

I don't think it's for everyone, and not because it's "too hard" or anything

[livid plume]

I don't have any job or skill other than knowing basics of Python. Plus Social Anxiety.

[charred juniper]

I mean I don't need to think bout careers for a couple of years but if im learning i might as well learn bout the job opportunities

no razuki, im just asking for myself i didnt scroll up not gonna lie.

I mean for me the skill i have is definitely math, which is what got me interested in python in the first place

so is it worth it as someone interested in math to go into a career in coding or should i do smth else?

[lilac jolt]

hmm

[vapid jay]

hi so i need to work on a simple project to put on my cv but idk what to work on and ive started python like 2 weeks ago tbh with abit of background from like 5 years ago using strings and if testaments is there any simple ones that are impressive?

[lilac jolt]

I don't think there is a simple answer to that one @charred juniper

[charred juniper]

yeah, just wanna know the pros and cons for me

[lilac jolt]

I've been engaged in the working world for roughly 12 years now, and my experience has been that you can't know, even with a solid pro/con list.

[charred juniper]

i mean ive also always been interested in technology and have decentish leadership skills

can you explain further? sorry if im asking a bit much

[lilac jolt]

the answer, in my eyes, is to try stuff out and see what you think. Trying not to get caught up in the "what if I waste x amount of years of my life?!"

[charred juniper]

thats fair

I mean for me, im just considering well paying jobs that isnt doctor or lawyer, becoming a failure without becoming a failure without becoming a failure and say working in businesses surrounding technologies seem interesting.

[livid plume]

Knowing math is definitely a big plus. You can contribute to open source and do freelancing also.

[lilac jolt]

It's a bit cliche, but getting a job to make $$ without some other engaging part of it leads to kind of emptiness inside

so, what I'm trying to say is that you should focus on the process, the curiosities, and other important bits, and the money will come. Not to say you should be irresponsible with your spending habits or bills... but it's super easy to focus on the money part of things exclusively

going back to rakuzi, I'd be curious to know what you're working on right now

[charred juniper]

Sorry back

[charred juniper]

Ye ofc why do you think I don't want to be a doctor or lawyer, and again technology interests me

[lilac jolt]

oh, maybe I misunderstood. Sounds like you got it already.

[charred juniper]

Oh well thanks. Don't need a job for a while but still good to know

Oh, how challenging is the job? Usually if it's more challenging it can be funner

[lilac jolt]

people need a challenge to feel engaged, which leads to fulfillment, etc.

[vapid jay]

Yes for sure

[lilac jolt]

too much or too little and you are either bored/depressed or burnt-out/overwhelmed

[vapid jay]

Like any career

[lilac jolt]

for sure. The tricky bit is to understand where you're at and step into a more/less challenging role as you need

especially if we're talking paycuts...

or ego gets involved and your self talk starts ripping on "I should be able to handle this... why do I suck so much?". Which is typically unhelpful

[livid plume]

I have another question. How to know if I really not like something eg. Web & App dev or I am running from learning?

[lilac jolt]

solid question... can I think on that for a minute?

@livid plume In my experience, you can't know ahead of time. That's something you look back on and evaluate later. Which is not helpful... I know. But in the here and now, you can at least try to break it down with questions. For example, "What about x do I think I don't like? Is it true?", "What about x got me curious to learn it?", "Is there something else that is drawing my focus and attention that is more engaging than x?"

[livid plume]

@lilac jolt I think this a good answer. Thanks.

[lilac jolt]

happy to help, good to know all my incessant internal reflection isn't going to waste on just me

[fiery jetty]

Coding really enhances the way you think, especially if you try to understand the whys and how's of why a program is too slow or takes up too much space

[charred juniper]

👍 thanks

[pastel thunder]

i dont have awards to mention in my grad application...i want admission in 2023 batch....means at least i have 5 months to get any...what can i do?

[worldly jacinth]

Hey
Can anyone guide me in my coding carrier???

I'm new in this feild

[nimble jetty]

what jobs its really needed (ex : web development,security,data science,machine learning)

[near ocean]

You can find that by looking at your local job boards, linkedin, totaljobs, etc

Its not something we can tell you, it depends on where you want to work

[summer roost]

engineer and software developer are well paying jobs that aren't doctor or lawyer, and math skills are helpful for both of those. Keep studying STEM stuff and you'll be well positioned for either of those tracks when you decide. And there's plenty of other interesting fields like biotech that are probably not on your radar at all yet.

[charred juniper]

i mean science is my worst subject, although right now the science we learned is enviormental and geology

[summer roost]

Ya know how nearly every piece of software you've ever used has bugs that you've noticed? That isn't because all developers are crap, it's because writing software is surprisingly difficult.

[charred juniper]

it's like math right, where one little slip up causes impending doom to everyone on the face on this planet

[summer roost]

hm, sometimes - but usually bugs are just places where the developer missed this one little weird case that can happen, or things like that

Sounds like you're still quite young, but yeah - programming is a challenging career that pays quite well.

[graceful mason]

Often bugs are mistakes someone made that don't actually become an issue until you try adding a new feature that interacts with the bug

[wise tulip]

Nope not at all

[hearty island]

machine learning and simple 😢

[charred juniper]

i am young, yeah. I just wanted to know my opportunities lol. Thanks a lot!

[sudden quartz]

ML is simple id say

[dense mesa]

Very subjective judgement :)

[near ocean]

Why would you say its simple

[near ocean]

Thats like saying youre a backend dev for running py -m http.server...

Can we have an actual ML engineer give an opinion instead of reducing everything to the ground

Youre not solving any kind of real world problem with 4 lines of scikit, why even bother mentioning it

[brittle thorn]

My friend has a similar impression to yours..seems to be true

[smoky quest]

You would be surprised how effective can be a simple linear regression.
ML is a field with a broad outlook. Even a ML engineer would have different biases and opinion than a ML researcher

So while I wouldn't say ML is simple, it is certainly not inaccessible either

[brittle thorn]

The libraries made it simple... making the libraries isnt

[smoky quest]

and so is making the papers seeding ideas in the libraries 😉

[brittle thorn]

Yep

[smoky quest]

It's typically multiple stages.
First you put out something super simple. Like the most simplest thing you can think of (ex: linear regression). And that will create some needs such as being able to understand how your model is performing or gathering the data you need for your model. Which in turns opens up more opportunities and grow from there.
You never start with a fully blown ml pipeline with all the bells and whistles.
With regards to teams, you either have a dedicated ml team or the ml responsiblities are embedded within the teams themselves (ex: backend engineer). I haven't seen a place where the dedicated ml team works out as they would end up being way too disconnected to be useful

[brittle thorn]

Why some say Data Engineeers are more needed in business settings than Data Scientists

[brittle thorn]

Yes scaling is expense

[smoky quest]

And on top of that, most engineers don't have the chops to deal with the math side of the ML. So they will leverage whatever abstracted tool / turn key solution, which dilutes further the field

[brittle thorn]

Sadly very true

[smoky quest]

yep and that's no different from other fields. You don't start your apps by building it at google scale

[smoky quest]

I actually find that quite formidable. It's amazing for me to be able to put such complex and powerful tools in the hands of more people

[brittle thorn]

In chemistry /chem eng we have lab scale , pilot plant ...then full scale... yes

[smoky quest]

The democratization of learning from data is a huge challenge for citizens and freedom in general

[brittle thorn]

True even in the hard sciences

[smoky quest]

Am on a lot of things (ie. sorts of startup), not specifically DE. So more like leveraging AI/ML in the products I build

So you are the Jen of data teams?

I am in a larger company at the moment. But more like rest and vest until the next thing

just a bad reference to IT crowd where Jen is translating between the geeks and normal people

GC

I had no problem going into a very early stage startup while on a h1b.
Transferring h1b is easy and simple

It's like 10-12k$ in lawyers fees for the paperwork. But it's cheap comparing to waiting longer for another candidate or paying a recruiter's fees

yeah if brought in by an external recruiter

[lusty knoll]

What steps should one follow if he/she wants to get a job in Google as a software engineer?

[smoky quest]

Get a CS degree, have some interesting projects, prepare a resume and practice some leetcode and then apply

[cobalt plank]

i tried leetcoding for the first time today and it was very unpleasent

[smoky quest]

Unfortunately, it is pretty common and the least unpleasant way people have found

[lusty knoll]

What specific CS degree should I get?

[cobalt plank]

what do you mean least unpleasent way people have found @smoky quest

[smoky quest]

At least a BS

[lusty knoll]

Would B tech work?

[smoky quest]

Of all the ways people have tried to validate one's skills, it was the least unpleasant one.

[cobalt plank]

so leetcode is the funnest part?

[smoky quest]

Is it greater or equal to a bachelors?

[smoky quest]

What do you mean?
Also if it was your first time doing some leetcode, you may want to start with codingame instead. It's more gamified but same ideas

[cobalt plank]

i'd rather just stick with leetcode

is it this grueling for everyone? I just started and i'm in the explore section with arrays and doing three problems was draining

[lusty knoll]

Btech is a 4 year course which after completing makes you a software engineer

[smoky quest]

I don't see many btech resumes to be honest. Mosts are either BS, MS, phd or none. Which makes me biased against btech

[lusty knoll]

Oh ok

See my main focus is python and i want to get a job in Google with it.. Is it possible and if yes then what's the basic roadmap to follow

[orchid yacht]

hmm

[smoky quest]

• The main roadmap is the same than earlier: get a degree BS >=. Unless you are like > 25 and you would be in a different situation
• a job at any company doesn't depend on the language but the role and responsibilities
• most jobs will require you to use more than one language

[orchid yacht]

im not an expert but with google i think you would need more coding then python

[orchid yacht]

ye exactly

[lusty knoll]

Oh..kkk

[delicate bane]

yeah its pretty draining

for me, i do codewars (basically similar to leetcode). i like it bc there are separate points for both the "best answer" (ideal) and "most creative answer" (probs shouldnt use this irl but still cool/interesting to see other peoples unique approach)

[vapid jay]

damn u guys are pro coders

Do any of you guys have jobs in programming/coding

[peak halo]

We don't allow any recruiting in this server, so no.

[sudden quartz]

Yes many people here do. #python-discussion may be a good place to learn more.

[sudden quartz]

Its an India thing. Id say its what computer 'engineering' is to computer 'science' here. So it doesnt matter

[vapid jay]

I'm just asking if like anyone has a real life job in programming/coding

[peak halo]

A lot of the people who visit this channel do. Especially the ones who are staff

[smoky quest]

ah fair enough. Thanks for the info!

[tiny spear]

is Odoo in demand? My internship will do Odoo training

[latent mountain]

So let me get this straight, company’s don’t care about college degrees?

[tiny spear]

Odoo is mostly CRM software so i kinda feel its boring

[summer roost]

For someone with 10 years of professional experience, they don't care if you have a degree or not. The problem is that it's very tough to get 10 years of professional experience without a degree

[tiny spear]

its kinda like walking before running. Sure you could technically run at the beginning but it will be tough without walking first

[void flower]

Hello everyone.

[latent mountain]

I have ten years of non professional experience

I have certificates and projects

Who here has worked for a company before?

[void flower]

I want to start getting to work. I have collected some information such as I must have a resume and a portfolio, few projects, or hackerrank.

how much python do I need to know to get started? what are the things I can leave for now?

what are the must have things/concepts, so that I can start learning flask?

which one to choose from: ajax, json, yaml?

please help me.

[smoky quest]

https://roadmap.sh/ might be of help

The first step is to define your goal and targets though

[summer roost]

If you can afford the time and money to get a degree, you should get one. Otherwise you're playing on hard mode.

[latent geyser]

This is incredible tysm

[summer roost]

Are you trying to switch careers, or are you looking for your first job?

[summer roost]

Pretty much everyone who answers questions in this channel.

[summer roost]

If you think you have skills that companies are looking for and the projects and certifications to prove it to them, you can always just start applying to jobs and see if you're right. It's an easy assumption to check.

[opaque spade]

Are Tech with Tim Python beginner, intermediate, and advanced guides good to follow to learn python?

The question I contemplate is that should I go get a second degree in Computer Science. I know only I can truly answer this question. My current degree was difficult and challenged me mentally. I don’t mind getting a degree if it can land me more enjoyable job prospects. Any suggestions? Should I go for a diploma considering I already have a degree?

[summer roost]

What degree do you have? What job do you have?

Are you more interested in software development than the job you're currently doing?

[smoky quest]

yeah, that's a bit too vague to recommend anything.
Can you expand a bit more on your current situation and prospects?

[vapid jay]

The 'BTech' is an Indian/South Asian degree, equivalent to an engineering degree in the West.

Then there's an 'M. Tech', the masters' level program in the same area

[strong socket]

wut me do in life?

[opaque spade]

The degree is Chemical Engineering. I’m in my final year and from my internship experience, I just don’t find myself interested in the work. I picked up programming and learning python actually during my free time when I was on an internship. To simply put it, I don’t like the idea of doing traditional chemE work for the rest of my life.

Software development is fun and I often find myself staying up late nights until I get my code running. Is this healthy? No.

But,

It shows me I care and have a passion. The uncertainty lies in my age. I will graduate at age 23 and I feel like I’m too old to go for another degree (at least my mind is telling me this).

I know I can succeed in programming because I actually understand the purpose and can apply what I learn to my life outside of work. I can’t say the same for chemE.

[brittle thorn]

Follow your instincts

[opaque spade]

Current situation is listed above.

As for prospects, it’s hard to say. I’m currently spending my summer on a battery research with my previous employer (professor) projected that just received $10 million support from Bill Gates.

I know a chemE degree can get me a job and there’s no doubting it. The lack of interest is my fear. I feel like I’m constantly going to be looking at the clock until my shift is over.

I don’t care if I make more or less money than programming. I feel like it’s worth it in the long run.

[opaque spade]

My instincts tell me if I get a second degree, I will be 26 or 27. I feel like this is might be too old to start in the tech industry? Idk

[brittle thorn]

You can mix programming with ChE do scienitific computing

[opaque spade]

Hmm. I never thought of that

[brittle thorn]

Battery esp Lithium ion research ...maybe do electrochemical simulations

https://github.com/topics/electrochemistry

Maybe fuel cell research ...ask your prof if you can do simulations

Then after getting a research paper published pivot to industry

Bill Gates is supporting the project..take initiative be innovative

Reframe your circumstances and problems become opportunities

[opaque spade]

Hmm I see. However, I’d like to explore the web development side. Would it be smarter to go for a diploma/bootcamp as opposed to another degree?

[brittle thorn]

I learned web dev on my own

Im a Chem Major Btw

It depends on what opportunities you grab

Yeah i learned Python on my own too and used it in a Published Paper in a Local Physics Journal

[true turtle]

just so you know, the common computer science related degrees in India are
BTech in Computer Science and Engineering
Btech in Computer Engineering
Btech in Information Technology

[cursive silo]

hi

can anybody tell me best django 4.0 course

please

[smoky quest]

This isn't related to #career-advice . You may have more luck on #❓｜how-to-get-help

[cursive silo]

@smoky quest thanks man

[solemn wharf]

I'll have to leave this server for some time ☹️

[autumn swift]

These are not in order fyi. The roadmaps are... usually correct in substance. Their order of learning is usually extremely bad.

[true harness]

usually? what about this site specifically?

[obtuse talon]

yeah
i am like just turned 18
so i dont know enough about money

soon i will start my own company

so like i was just taking a short help

[void flower]

PLEASE DON'T IGNORE: I am on a degree with hard mode actually. I hope you can understand. My college is tier 3 college, the degree is also not a higher level. tell me a way to overcome my comfort zone here. I know about roadmap.sh and I'm learning from it the frontend roadmap. recently I was surfing through freelancer.com. I thought I should search for something that I can do as entry level job, so I searched for data entry. I found few stating, enter data into excel from attached written note in 5577 pages. I don't get what is this. I need to enter data 5577 pages? alone? it is massive as a first gig, first time experience! I'm affraid how will I find jobs. I am currently learning html, css, js (personally) and php, python (in college), I'm not good but still working. How do I grab a very basic entry level work. No matter pay less, less time like for a week and whatever the payment, less level of accuracy risk and I get to know how work/things are done. then I will surely/hopefully figure out my way.

[vapid jay]

Hi

anyone from India?

[void flower]

I don't have a paid service/subscription to learn from cause I can't afford it. I'm learning from things like sololearn, youtube videos, FOSS guides/documentations, I try a little bit of problem solving but again, I'm still noob. I am not in tutorial hell but I feel like I'm stuck and not growing. I feel like the only solution is to work-collaborate with someone (as in paired-programming) as an assistant, no matter how much pay is.

[void flower]

Yes. how are you?

[vapid jay]

am gud and u?

[void flower]

As you can see I'm not good at all. but this is not the place to cry about it but to discuss something meaningful 🥲

[open belfry]

Hi 👋👋

Guys i need some guidance

I have basically learnt advanced python now i m looking for specialation in backend how can i do that

Plz anyone

[gritty rivet]

http://roadmap.sh/backend

[void flower]

what is the difference between ajax, json and yaml?

[graceful mason]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[austere crow]

can i know why we need django or other framewark to create web applications if we can do this with javascipt and why some people use both instead of one and what's the different between them

[gritty rivet]

#web-development

[dense mesa]

What would your company do?

[obtuse talon]

sell innovative things

like a bottle which sucks moisture from air and covert into the water without any human help or a food delivery company that uses small flying things with a propeller rather than delivery boys which fly more than the speed of 80km/h,5 km above the ground.

like i dream of something everyday and modify it ,talk to my boys and start to research about it

[dense mesa]

That's really good man, keep up the creativity and hard work

[dense mesa]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[ivory sluice]

@foggy belfry recruiting and advertising is not permitted here, please read our #rules

[void flower]

sure

[vapid jay]

hey guys! any dedicated discussion on RPA.TIA for your reply

[vapid jay]

I am planning to become AI engineer but I am scared by the amount of math needed and if I am strong enough to do math for the rest of my life

[ripe vapor]

bcz it's flexible and easy to use

[halcyon lichen]

Hey guys i have an idea and i wanted to build a software so I'm looking for a partner anyone interested in doing business dm me

[summer roost]

It will probably only cost you 2 extra years of school to get a CS degree as well, and 23 vs 25 isn't a huge age difference. If you find that you don't like the ChemE work, I wouldn't think it would be a good idea to plan to do that work for the next ~40 years.

[peak halo]

I switched majors and didn't graduate until shortly before turning 26. I don't really buy into the "everyone does things on their own timeline" cliche--it's disappointing that I started my career later than I could have. But don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy: if you're not happy with the direction you're going, the sooner you change direction, the better.

One of our staff members is a chemical engineer, and my understanding is they use Python extensively in their work.

[summer roost]

I know someone who's into computational chemistry and enjoys her work, though I don't understand it well enough to explain it to you 😄

[peak halo]

(I mean, there's a lot of truth underlying "everyone does things on their own timeline", but I think it's often misapplied.)

[summer roost]

Data entry is unskilled labor, and won't leverage any of the skills you've been learning. If what you're looking for is mentorship, you're unlikely to get that from any freelancing job, since the entire reason they're outsourcing the work is that they don't have anyone on hand with the time and expertise to do the work.

If internships are a common thing in your country, they would be a much better way to get the sort of hands on mentorship that you're looking for.

[leaden jasper]

Yo same! I have a bachelor's in ChemE. Realized that the typical process engineer life would be skull crushingly boring and not for me.

So, a ChemE that can model/code is a large asset for companies. That's what I do now. I do a lot of modeling work and computational stuff. It's fairly easy, with some CS knowledge through projects and university classes (not even a straight up degree), to transition more to creating software for ChemEs to use. Once you're situated in that position, it's much easier to make the jump into full on software engineering if you want to leave the ChemE sphere entirely.

I personally still enjoy the engineering aspects. So I get to do the engineering design and math, but I still spend a non-trivial portion of my days coding to some degree.

If you end up working for a company that is willing to pay for a Master's degree, consider using that to get a CS degree. You can then leverage that degree to fully transition out of ChemE

@opaque spade ^ I meant to reply but discord hates me today

[forest seal]

What's everyone's thoughts on future of CS/devs? I'm sure this is in here like 5 times a day so if there is a previous thread/QnA page please let me know?

[dapper depot]

roughly the same as the past

[forest seal]

I feel like there is a massive amount of people going into CS, do you mean that the demand will hold up to match this?

[summer roost]

The market is ever expanding, and a greater number of capable devs just means more software will be built. Increased competition might drive wages down a bit, but the wages talented devs command today are frankly ridiculous, so some downward pressure wouldn't be the end of the world

[near ocean]

Python's not going away in the next 5 years which is plenty of time to establish a career as a software dev
If it does fall out of favour after that you just learn something new

[forest seal]

oh I mean in general

I don't have a problem with switching languages, it's not too hard to relearn syntax in a few months. but what you guys said makes sense

[peak halo]

also, just some lay speculation on my part, but I think career tracks that fall under "CS" will start to diverge, and that they'll eventually be viewed as being as distinct as (for example) chemical and mechanical engineering.

[forest seal]

that would make a lot more sense. at this point even data scientists are usually grouped under CS

[peak halo]

well, that's not a new development; it started that way.

[summer roost]

That sounds plausible. Web development already has relatively lower pay and less prestige than many other types of software development, for instance, and requires less of the computer science background knowledge

[lucid vapor]

Frontend, backend, or both?

[near ocean]

Frontend from what i see on job boards

[peak halo]

probably both, but esp. frontend.

[lucid vapor]

I see, I see. Thank you.

[peak halo]

It also occurs to me that programming is something most people can get started with and practice on their own, so even if most employers look to see that you have a CS degree, most of the skills that the job will actually require are things you can practice on your own or which you would learn on the job anyway. Data science and cybersecurity come to mind as exceptions, since they require advanced math/non-programming knowledge that people aren't as likely to be motivated to learn in a self-directed way.

So, I wonder if we can expect a future where most programming jobs are lower paying and have a lower barrier to entry, and where the scientific ones are higher paying and retain a higher barrier to entry.

[vapid jay]

probably not lower paying I feel like the demand for programmers is larger than the amount of people learning programming

[peak halo]

my perception of how many people are learning programming is probably incredibly far off, since I spend a lot of time here answering programming questions. though I'm a bit skeptical as to the number of people who come out of CS programs as job-equipped programmers.

so, even if the number of people who attempt to learn programming to one extent is quite high, I guess it could be that the number of people who continue to the point of being qualified is low.

[vapid jay]

I’m not sure but I feel like you will end up learning alot more during a development job than your degree teaches you

8 hours a day of programming im not sure most programming jobs are 9 - 5 right or am I wrong

[summer roost]

There are devs today who are paid over $500k/year as individual contributors at large companies. That salary is patently ridiculous, and it does seem likely to me that, in a future with more developers, more will have the skills required for those roles, increasing competition and driving down wages

I'd like to see a future with software development trade schools, actually. Something in between boot camps and CS degree programs

[olive inlet]

I'm not sure where this belongs but I figured I could put it here since it could pertain to people with careers, how do you deal with burnout with programming?

I see

Also just to add on, I'm not in a workplace setting itself, I mostly do programming as a hobby, I just figured I'd ask here since a lot of people in careers may have experienced burnout before

[steady pivot]

Does architecture require any coding? lol

[olive inlet]

Yeah it seems like after I begin to get into a hobby, I lose motivation and this goes with most hobbies of mine

So my mindset was going into programming that I'd try not to quit it and to go through the rough seas of lost motivation since there's probably something ahead of that

I think my passion comes back in little bits, like if I make some cool esoteric piece of code, while other times I just stare at my editor not knowing what to code

[near ocean]

I dont think you can have a "not knowing what to code" issue in the workplace, you usually will have a backlog of things to do

[hearty island]

you have like an entire checklist

[steady pivot]

Ah. Thanks for the advice

[olive inlet]

Ohh, I see what you're saying

Thanks for pointing that out, I was quite oblivious to it and I thought it was just me not liking coding anymore but I think the lack of motivation stems from what you said, which is looking at the end result and then hoping for that to turn out the way it is

[olive inlet]

I'm not in a workplace though

[past plover]

Is it a high expectation to start as a freelancer without working in a company first?

[summer roost]

the only thing I've found to help with burnout is just to take a break from whatever it is that you've burned out on. That's tough when it's your job, but it's a lot easier when it's a hobby.

[summer roost]

as a freelancer? No. As a well paid freelancer? Yes.

[olive inlet]

the only issue is that usually I feel bad if I'm not doing something productive, so if I take a break like say via video games I feel bad because I'm not learning anything

[smoky quest]

note that, as a freelancer, you not only have to deal with the actual work, but also with finding clients, managing accounting, insurances, business taxes/laws, relationships with clients, and a bunch of skills that aren't required when working for a company

[past plover]

how much a is legit?

[summer roost]

well - you shouldn't. It's OK to take a break from learning and do other stuff you enjoy.

[smoky quest]

Can you expand a bit more on not knowing what to code?

[past plover]

good note

[olive inlet]

I have an idea of what I wanted to do when I opened the editor, I open up the project, but then I just sit there and I get bored fast and I don't really know what to add either

[smoky quest]

Do you attribute it to not knowing how to approach your idea, thinking your idea is not that interesting, or because there are some other boring tasks in the way?

Or because you already have solved the concept/problem in your mind and then writing it down is not as interesting?

[olive inlet]

The latter, I've solved it it's just boring to write it out

[summer roost]

well, it's OK not to. It's a hobby; if you find thinking about the code more rewarding than writing it, that's OK.

if what you're experiencing is burnout, it's really unlikely that you'll be able to press through it. It will feel like more and more of a drag on you the longer you keep trying to do what you've been doing.

[olive inlet]

so essentially what I should do is just try to avoid programming for a few weeks or so
or until it wears off

[summer roost]

or work on entirely different projects that might hold your interest - something that's in a different direction than what you've been doing. But yeah, taking a vacation from programming is probably a good idea.

[olive inlet]

hmm, i could try a new project where I'd have to learn something

[smoky quest]

You can try different things and see which ones work best for you.
I do experience sometimes what you are talking about and typically picking a more exploratory subject does work. Solving a problem is often more rewarding than writing down the boring UI around it

[summer roost]

Even things that we love and enjoy doing start to feel like a chore when we feel like we're being forced to do them and we don't feel like doing them.

[olive inlet]

most of my projects have been "implement something you already know how to do"

maybe i could learn a new language altogether?

[near ocean]

You could just do different things altogether, try a sport, go for walks, workout, do somethih artsy, etc

[smoky quest]

Also not all your projects have to be huge and complete. Sometimes just proving out something is a project in itself and that's ok to switch to multiple things

[summer roost]

learning a new language might be different enough to satisfy your brain, or it might not. Try it, see if it feels refreshing, do something else if it doesn't.

[olive inlet]

hmm I might try a combination of the advice here, thanks everyone

[summer roost]

depending on your country, it may be possible to get a job as a software engineer without a CS degree, but even in those countries a CS degree is the default route, and will be the most direct path and easiest path to succeed on.

[dense mesa]

May be missing a few zeros of difference 😅

UK degree is gonna be like £50k all in with accomodation etc included, US over $100k

[summer roost]

US could be over $100k for 4 years at a relatively expensive school if you receive no scholarships or financial aid. It's possible to pay that much, but it's not the norm.

[smoky quest]

~12-15k$/year in US and in-state for CA. Does not include living expenses
Higher if out of state

[summer roost]

and £50k is ~$68k, FWIW

"higher" doesn't have a bound on it - how can it be an understatement?

[smoky quest]

You can find some examples here:

• https://www.collegetuitioncompare.com/edu/122755/san-jose-state-university/
• https://www.collegetuitioncompare.com/edu/110635/university-of-california-berkeley/
  (two big CS schools in the bay area, which is itself a hcol)

[summer roost]

it's a relative comparison - out of state tuition is higher than in state tuition.

[dense mesa]

No

No tax benefits and barely any scholarships

[summer roost]

that isn't the way the English language works. 100 and 1000 are both higher than 10.

[smoky quest]

you mean compensation*

Lots of CEO brag about taking 1$ salary, which would be less than a lot of LLC.
Compensation would include stock, option, bonuses, etc.

[summer roost]

in state tuition is usually in the range of 25% to 80% of out of state tuition, from what I've seen. That depends on the particular institution, though, and it's a huge range, so it's hard to give any concrete feedback on that.

well, in state tuition at San Jose State University is ~40% of out of state, and that's in CA - so, that's 2.5x

I think that's a misconception, for what it's worth. The quality of candidates who have graduated from big name universities doesn't tend to be remarkably higher than the quality of candidates who graduated from lesser known universities. The average quality of a candidate from a big name university is probably a bit higher than the average quality of a candidate from a small university, but the ranges are so large and there's so much individual variability that it's not a useful criteria to use for screening candidates

[near ocean]

Rankings for universities are based on a lot of things, undergrad opinion is one of them

I disagree, i would look at graduate prospects and QoL before that, most graduates dont really go into academia anyway

[sudden quartz]

[plush rover]

guys is it possible to get a job with only one coding language and no certificates

[dusky lichen]

yes, if you have several "hobbyist" projects to show off you can convince an employer that you know what youre doing

[plush rover]

thats a good call thanks

[shut totem]

Hi, I just want to let you know that I make music and I want to start to make some Ost's. So If you need music for a project, i'm available. (:

[smoky quest]

What's your current situation? If you are in HS, the easiest route is to get a degree

[summer roost]

It's pretty unlikely. You'll be competing against people with much better credentials for the same entry level jobs.

[plush rover]

well I was pretty curious but yeh high school

secondary school in the uk i think anyway

[smoky quest]

Then aim for a degree.
Skipping college/university will greatly harm your prospects of a career and make it more difficult for you in general

[summer roost]

it's a tough question to answer - it's technically possible, but the deck would be heavily stacked against you, and you'd be more likely to fail than to successfully break into the industry. It's much easier and safer to get a degree.

[plush rover]

will a maths A Level greatly help me

[smoky quest]

help with what?

[plush rover]

computer science

[smoky quest]

Sure. Better grades can only help

[gilded valley]

If you're in the UK, then the graduates tend to earn more than non graduates to an extent that outweighs the cost of student loans. Having a degree makes it much easier to land your first serious job/jobs.

Maths a-level is required by a lot of high tier universities, if you think you can manage it, then it makes sense to take it.

[vapid jay]

what advice would someone(anyone) give to a high schooler who wants to pursue a career as a full stack dev?

[obsidian acorn]

Have fun and study math. And maybe start looking into drawing and designing visual images, and things. And join their computer club if their school has one.

Some high school offers cs related courses. I would suggest take those as well.

[summer roost]

in general, keep learning different stuff that interests you. University is for specializing - while you're in high school it's better to go broad than deep, and learn about lots of different stuff.

[marsh wind]

I don't see anything off with having masters at 22. At my country of origins you finish high school around 17. And I got masters few month before hitting 23.

In Eastern Europe like Ukraine bachelor is 4 and master is 2

But you start at 17 or even 16 if you born towards end of year

Why even? Would you expect cs to be longer?

[long hinge]

i would like to know if coding is really worth it ? and is there any field in informatics you think has a great potential in the future ?

[summer roost]

most people in the US start college at 17. And there are dual BS/MS programs that get you both degrees in 5 years, if you know it's what you want from the start.

[sour tartan]

what would make it "worth it" to you? It can be a good career.

[marsh wind]

medical school and related is a totally different animal 🙂
But normally I've not seen any bachelor over 4 yrs. I think I even saw 3.5

[long hinge]

worth it means , useful , fun , and hard without math .

[marsh wind]

But regular STEM like bachelor is 4 yrs. Masters can vary a bit ie 1.5 yrs but again, didn't see above 2

[long hinge]

no i said it is worth it if it uses math

[sour tartan]

coding is all of those things 🙂

[summer roost]

coding is useful - we wouldn't be able to talk like this if there weren't any coders.
Whether it's fun depends on your personal sensibilities.

[sour tartan]

coding mostly doesn't involve math

[long hinge]

yeah cause in my school we study everything in an advanced level so i can choose any field

[marsh wind]

Btw yes, in France their equivalent of bachelor is 3 years.
Engineering degree is 5 I think and is equivalent to master

[long hinge]

from my humble experience , some math things are just useless cause you never use them , so i only did an analogy with coding

[long hinge]

i am in 2nd year preparatory classes , which means i can enter any engineering school and only do 3 years in it

[marsh wind]

Yes that sounds like France exactly haha

[long hinge]

i like math , never said i didnt

i am talking about things like parametric functions etc.

[marsh wind]

If you have passion for coding it is fun really.i work with one senior fullstacks engineer and that guy is very skilled, very passionate and motivated, clearly has fun doing his job

I am sure if he wouldn't have fun he'd never do stuff on weekends just because "oh I had idea I wanted to try it right away"...

[long hinge]

yeah that's me most days xD

but the thing is there are people who never had to study advanced math or physics and have spent those years learning to code , so when you're our in the hiring business it is gunna be rough.

and i don't think doing what you like and staying unemployed is really worth it .

[summer roost]

when hiring for junior developer roles, hiring managers will prefer someone with a college degree over someone without one, all things being equal.

[long hinge]

im talking about these two years not entire college

[smoky quest]

correlation vs causation.
Better educated people tend to know more and able to go deeper and do more, which in turns increase their chances of success and their career prospects

[marsh wind]

Not sure if I follow. It's not just about spending years to learn coding. It's much more than that really. Understanding of algorithms, why something work and some don't, how to approach problem at hand, structure your solution and research them is, imo as important as learning to code.and math or physics hep you greatly with that

[smoky quest]

true

[summer roost]

and your university cohort forms the start of your professional network, which helps you gauge things like whether or not you're being underpaid.

[long hinge]

i think this stuff is obtainable with time no ?

[smoky quest]

if kids are unwilling to hit the textbooks now, they are unlikely to hit them later or even know which textbook to hit

[marsh wind]

One thing I heard in my uni (I did physics Btw, not CS or related) is that one of the best things you get from uni is not hard skills but learning how to learn

[smoky quest]

if there is a will, there is a way

[long hinge]

the experience plays a big role here , i think they are most likely to hire the 30 yo dude because the quality is guaranteed.*

[marsh wind]

I am pretty sure they are in France, not Maghreb 😂

[smoky quest]

The culture of degrees is even stronger in France

[long hinge]

i like confusing you , hehe , you'll never know.

[summer roost]

They're definitely more likely to hire a 24 year old with a degree than a 30 year old with no degree and no relevant work experience.

let's... stop doxxing people?

[long hinge]

also my goal is to hit it all the way to doctorat (not sure if this is how you say it )

[summer roost]

if they don't want to say where they're from, that's their choice.

so?

[smoky quest]

phd

[marsh wind]

that's up to you to disclose or not.
Either way both prepa and school after has lot of value you may not see now

[smoky quest]

yeah, especially comparing to Germany for instance

[marsh wind]

Why do you want to get phd though?

[long hinge]

no i totally get that , but i am talking about the years that have been spent learning stuff you won't use while another person in uni for example started from year 1 learning coding .

[smoky quest]

What makes you think you will be forced to learn things that won't be of any use? Why would they put them in the curriculum then?

[long hinge]

because if i like what i do then why not . also i got a chance to teach if i get bored of working .

[summer roost]

is the hypothetical "other person" majoring in something different?

[marsh wind]

They are talking about prepa and they can have very wide curriculum

[long hinge]

well this is how prepa works , basically i can choose to be a civil engineer if i want , or a mechanic.

[smoky quest]

Oh, I thought you were already in prepa and looking for the next steps

[long hinge]

i am , 2nd year prepa

[safe loom]

Nice, so you have a solid bg in maths and physics I assume?

[smoky quest]

Different prepas have somewhat different curriculum though

[split stirrup]

Hi guys, in ur opinions, which stack a python developer can follow that generate the fatest return?

[smoky quest]

The one in most demand in your local market. Different markets have different popular stacks

[long hinge]

yeah

[marsh wind]

The main reason people in phd here teach is to get experience to get hired to teach in uni or for a bit of extra cash, not bcs of getting bored, latter is impossible 😂
Trust me you need lot more than "why not" as a motivation for phd. But you still have few years of school ahead. I would not think as far as phd just yet 🙂

[smoky quest]

Also note the goal of a software engineer is not specifically to write code, but to solve a problem. Coding is just a mean to an end, not the end in itself

[long hinge]

well let's slowly make our way and keep it in mind untill i reach it .😂

see this is what i want to hear. civil is a no no

[marsh wind]

Yeah exactly. I know I am just a random guy on internet. But trust me, think 3 times before deciding to go into phd rabbit hole 😂

[long hinge]

i'll ask more people i guess .

i never said i hated math omg .

[marsh wind]

GCC are doing huge expansions of variety of things in terms of CE. But maybe they bring engineers from overseas Idk? Like Saudi or UAE, they build a lot and many unique projects too

[long hinge]

my problem is "useless ".

[summer roost]

I'm still really unclear on what you're asking, honestly.

[smoky quest]

As a data point, all the phd researchers I know in my network write the most shittiest code. Not because they are incapable, but because that's not their focus. Their focus is to validate their claims and churn out papers.
So going into a phd for the coding part may not be what you expect

[marsh wind]

Hm I see... So it's not that demand for civil engineering is low overall. It's just selective....

[gusty night]

Hello I know this is a useless question kind of dumb but, how can I move from E:\ to C:\ in CMDER

[smoky quest]

Some masters/engineering schools have a dual final year specialization to keep the door open to both the industry and a phd. May be worth looking into that as well

[long hinge]

oh i asked a lot of questions , first i asked if coding was worth the go , then i showed why i don't think it is (it was cleared thx to you guys) , and now i'm asking about phd.

[sour tartan]

is that question related to your career?

[smoky quest]

I am far from being a math nerd. I just don't shy away from them

[long hinge]

interesting , can i know in which country is that ?

[gusty night]

Yes, since I just started my Career as a Beginner Python Developer/Coder

[smoky quest]

USA

[sour tartan]

it doesn't seem to be related to python or careers. Try an off-topic channel

[marsh wind]

Might be different in CS/AI/ML PhDs ? Or not really?

[smoky quest]

no difference from what I see. Papers have even more competition in ML/AI due to the hype in it. Tons of shitty papers too

[long hinge]

what do you mean by dual ?

[marsh wind]

https://blog.esdes.fr/pourquoi-faire-un-double-master?hs_amp=true

[smoky quest]

dual in the sense that the purpose is to get in the industry (ex: engineer), but some could have a special final year with some extra activities to keep the door open to a phd track (it was called a DEA at the time if I remember correctly)

[marsh wind]

I assumed you can read French 😉

[long hinge]

i'm actually surprised , this is mad usefull , and it exists in france.

[marsh wind]

I don't doubt shitty. But some big codes written by physicists and very very popular in subject made me shudder more than once

[long hinge]

the problem now is does all schools have that or not , also it would be cool to continue my studies in another country like usa or china .

[smoky quest]

It comes down to the purpose of the code. If it ends up being used in a library, then yeah that changes the situation, but that is not the majority of the cases

[marsh wind]

That's just a failry decent and short article to explain dual masters

[long hinge]

be good and france pays for it 😉

[smoky quest]

lmao no

[long hinge]

well compared to what i had in my mind that's revolution .

[marsh wind]

Trust me, even widely used code, like one I worked with has plenty of ugly shit. And it's among most popular in the field which itself is big

[smoky quest]

that totally makes sense

[long hinge]

you sure ?

[smoky quest]

yeah. and phds are paid with rocks thrown at them

[marsh wind]

Uhm i am in France right, but I only did PhD here so I've no clue on schools or unis expenses

Oh ok. Yeah for those I have a decent idea indeed.

[marsh wind]

Rocks wrapped in paper with notes like "where is the draft of paper you had to send two weeks ago???"

[long hinge]

yeah not so harmful rock.

[smoky quest]

paris salaries are even higher than the rest.

[long hinge]

mhm

[marsh wind]

No, unless you mean my coworker, I saw him Friday 😂

[marsh wind]

Not in phd or academia though.....

[smoky quest]

It's pretty much a passion job at this point

[marsh wind]

Exactly.

[smoky quest]

It's like any large city. People are busy and stressed out

[long hinge]

@marsh wind the question is yours , do you think phd people are paid more than uni graduates ?

[smoky quest]

In the USA, they aren't paid as much as in the industry, but at least it's more respectable

[marsh wind]

In France? I doublt it.... At least not at my current stage, if I would get masters in France I'd like earn more at this point of life than I do know after phd. But I don't have that many daa points to know if that's typical and also to know how it'll be when I get more experience

Depends really on the definition of exceptional ones 😂. But short answer is yes

[long hinge]

i get it , so it all comes back to you , how you are , and how much experience you have.

[marsh wind]

Like I know a guy who's not that bright or exceptional but he got scholarship for masters and later for phd too, even though he ended up having very hard time with it. YMMV but it's possible to get funding. And the guy is non EU citizen like me

[marsh wind]

And how good you are at negotiations and selling your profile and skills. Hint : I wasn't.
But. Imo if your goal is earning more I don't think phd will be the deciding factor

True. He did not speak French but had decent grades In Uni even if uni was far from top.

Plenty really. I interviewed for few quants but ultimately didn't want to go that path.

In France masters is pretty much required in our fields

[long hinge]

i don't really understand the last part, could you please re formulate it.

[marsh wind]

YMMV means "your milage may vary"

Paris, I think I mentioned already. It was physics

[long hinge]

wait phd in physics and you do coding , eyo explain what domain of physics ?

[marsh wind]

It's in France. I've not seen single job listing not mention master or engineering degree in required part. As recursive said before the culture here is very degree orientated

[smoky quest]

absolutely. Anything below a master is just pissing code

[long hinge]

yeah maybe .

[smoky quest]

Everything is a lot more conservative. Very low tolerance to risks

[marsh wind]

Not now. It's 1 am and I am from phone lol.

Even in CS. I am talking about positions like web dev including

[long hinge]

i can stay up all night for this valuable info.

[marsh wind]

I did saw positions mentionig bac+3/5 so some are open for candidates below masters
But at least at level of job listing they are few and far between

Most industry internships also happen during masters and not undergrad from what I saw

So that would make it tricky for undergrads as if they won't have internships under their belts finding job difficulty skyrockets

[long hinge]

between me and you , i am doing just a short contact so i can gather money *10 then i am going back to my country they need phd people and master degrees there

[smoky quest]

if you go to university yeah. But you go to things like DUT/BTS, then you must have some internship

[long hinge]

alright this is it for me guys , gn.

[marsh wind]

I do little coding. I started as data scientist but now shifted to more management like position. Product owner or smth like that is closer to what I do now

[marsh wind]

Yes, France has so many options in higher education... I am totally lost in those details

[smoky quest]

it's a mess and they love to keep on changing it all the time in case people get used to it

[marsh wind]

With France specifically I am kinda glad I only came for PhDs 😂. But from what I see, alternance (apprenticeships I think in UK they call it) are really great option career wise

I was into research and had my mind set on academic career.
I wasn't clear sorry.by started mean after phd

I came to france directly from masters for phd . so my first industry experience is here and it's after phd

No plans yet. Also MBA usually is expensive

Indeed. I am not sure that current kind of management is what I want to keep doing. We'll see
Was nice talking to tall, sleep time

[vapid jay]

how did u guys learn python

It's not I hate math that much, I like math if I know how to do it

[gritty rivet]

The only way there is: by using it :)

In my case personally, I started messing with it slowly for various personal projects over many years. Then I finally did a bootcamp

[vapid jay]

yea im trying to learn it for discord bots lol

i just dont know where to start honestly

[vapid jay]

literally jumped right into it, open up a tutorial, work on something slightly different than the tutorial to give you an Idea on how stuff works

[vapid jay]

where do u find these tutorials? youtube? the python website?

[gritty rivet]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vapid jay]

depends, are you a book type of guy or video type of guy

[vapid jay]

k thanks

[gritty rivet]

A lot of people like the book Automate The Boring Stuff but I didn't use it personally

[vapid jay]

Same, Books are tad bit boring for me

[gritty rivet]

Project Euler was a breakthrough for me, I found it addicting

[vapid jay]

yea definetely a video , i never read a book (entirely) in my life

[gritty rivet]

Reading is better than watching, but doing is better than reading

[vapid jay]

Just watch those 12 hours long tutorial (Remember, only learn one subject each day even if you think you can do more, it helps to retain the information)

[vapid jay]

Depends on the person tbh, I personally learn better with videos instead of books

[vapid jay]

i haven't touched grass in ages, i can watch full 12 hour tutorials in one day

[vapid jay]

Don't, you'll end up forgetting 90% of it

yea it was just a joke

[vapid jay]

I havent touched grass in ages too,last time I touched grass i got covid D:

anyways what does the python symbol resemble lol

[vapid jay]

snek

oh yea the game

there's like 100 channels

im stupid i didn't see python general lol, my bad

Oh yeah I forgot this isnt python general lmao

alr thanks

[arctic inlet]

thanks

[arctic inlet]

how hard is it to work as a software developer in another country?

specifically in copenhagen denmark?

[astral frigate]

E

[arctic inlet]

what is E?

[summer roost]

are you an EU citizen? Have you looked into the visa process for Denmark?

[arctic inlet]

I'm from the philippines

yeah, I've had a job offer and been waiting for the contract to be signed by the company, I've also looked into the visa process

they were mostly english speaking

I mean my coworkers

noted, thanks

cool, so I might actually work on denmark for some time then maybe look for another job elsewhere

like how tall, the average hehe

cool, but how about the way they do software development? How do they compare to say silicon valley, quality, pressure, technology adoption

haha, finding clothes that fit will definitely be a problem for me then

yeah, the contract says 36 hours 30 mins lunch break

what do you mean chill? like the workplace/culture or the technology adoption?

yeah salaried, I've also looked at cost of living, the pay wasn't high but it's also not low, I'll be fine

I'm close to average local salary market

cool, what's his name?

but they are situated closed to each other, so they might have a vauge idea on how they do business there

I don't know if it's a joke or real, but aren't danish and swedish rivals?

[peak halo]

omg doxing

[arctic inlet]

good to know, don't want to offend anyone

[peak halo]

not really. also I think it's more sweden and norway together vs denmark

[arctic inlet]

I was told that when in rome do as the romans do

[peak halo]

anyway now we're off topic and it's my fault.

!unmod @peak halo

[arctic inlet]

what sort of work did you had with them?

I mean did you do backend(python) or some other language?

this is great advice, thanks

cool, thanks man, will definitely join some pinoy subreddit

will definitely get back here after 12 hours hehe

[brittle thorn]

Lol

[vapid jay]

@fair thorn LOL 😂

Do you like the gift I sent u in dm? @fair thorn

[brittle thorn]

I had a Danish boss for a while in an outsourcing firm they seem fine

[arctic inlet]

like how do you compare to like a startup in silicon valley?

[peak halo]

@vapid jay are you confessing to sending scam DMs?

[brittle thorn]

I also worked for a silicon valley startup via an outsourcing firm ...roughly similar but the Danes are more fair and egalitarian it seems

[arctic inlet]

well, it seems like Danes are cool to work with

[cobalt plank]

i'm in leetcode learning insertion in arrays right now and it sucks

[thick juniper]

If you've never been in a cold place before, you need to over-prepare yourself. A Danish summer is often colder than a Filipino winter.

[vapid jay]

That person is perms abusing in another server

[brittle thorn]

They are and I worked on prem with Danes and Swedes

[arctic inlet]

cool, I will proly buy some thick clothings, to prepare, but how do I prepare myself hehe, maybe sleep naked infront of the AC?

[thick juniper]

I sent the follow-up email. I haven't heard back yet, but I think the woman on my case was out of the office last week. (There are two women. I don't know who's taking point on my case.)

[arctic inlet]

do you like do webdev or some other stuff?

[brittle thorn]

Yes and some DS some Research some Teaching and some freelance data stuff

[peak halo]

We won't facilitate discussion about that; please don't make any reference to it again on this server, and DM @severe widget if you have a question about that.

[thick juniper]

Might still not be cold enough 😂

The Philippines is hot, and you all (at least my family who lives there) seem completely accustomed to hanging out without the AC on.

Good luck! And congrats!

[brittle thorn]

Hope for the best good luck

[thick juniper]

Thanks!

[brittle thorn]

Yep

[arctic inlet]

cool, thanks

[arctic inlet]

thanks man, will start turning up the AC now hehe

[vapid jay]

Oh, thanks!

[thick juniper]

Don't overthink it. You'll find yourself accustomed to it soon enough. Just google search for the cold weather clothes you'll need, pack a bunch clothes that fit from the local SM, and don't think it's warm out just because it's sunny!

Thank you. I really appreciate it.

[arctic inlet]

awesome, thanks

[arctic inlet]

great advice, I'm used to tshirt and a jeans going around the metro, will definitely need to update my wardrobe which is mostly shirt and jeans to more weather appropriate one

will definitely ask around for winter clothes, it hard to find it here 🙂

[vapid jay]

hey where can i ask general python question

[true harness]

#python-discussion

[radiant berry]

Hello #career-advice i am a graduate and wanted to go down the data analyst\science path in my future endeavors. Any data scientist here with similar experience, or internship/mentorship opportunity would be very much apprecieated. OR general approach to the task

My background is in physics major but i am not the brightest of the bunch

[buoyant seal]

https://towardsdatascience.com/data-science-learning-roadmap-for-2021-84f2ba09a44f

[rare sand]

@arctic inlet none of these are real rivalries, just neighbours poking fun at each other. We're all quite fond of each other, really.

[rare sand]

Big questions. I am in Scandinavia and have some insight here, but my experience might not apply universally across Scandinavia, so don't take it as gospel.

Compared to Silicon Valley, I would say that a Danish engineer position is probably a lot less stressful, but similar in other ways.

We're really concerned with making high quality software, ideally with cutting edge software - but we're sometimes servicing markets who don't care as much as the american markets. So, if you're in a young and exciting start-up, you'd be writing the latest and greatest tech, but if you're working with government or european megacorps, you might be stuck servicing some old technical debt in forgotten languages.

Scandinavian countries value quality above most other traits. We're also very concerned with making excellent workplaces where people don't crunch, don't work excessive overtime, and generally feel comfortable. When we hire someone, we want to keep them for 10 years. To achieve that, we need to make sure they are genuinely happy.

Another factor is that it's very hard to fire people in these countries

so the interview process is tough

sometimes

but it's to make sure we hire the right person

[brittle thorn]

I worked with both and yes this was true for me

[rare sand]

because it's very hard to get rid of someone after you hire them. Employees have more rights than employers.

that is very different from american companies, where you can usually be fired at any time

there are ways to get fired, though. But you'd have to be either incapable of doing the job, or fail to take it seriously. If you show up constantly sleep deprived, drunk, high, or anything like that, expect a very stern talk with your manager.

we also focus a lot on teamwork where I work. there's nothing adversarial about working as an engineer in Norway, you're part of a team and the team have each others backs. You're not competing with your colleagues, you're collaborating with them. That means you need to have their back, as well. You're expected to teach, to treat everyone with kindness, to present your work to colleagues, and to be social.

whereas in the US, I get the impression that it can be kind of a dog-eat-dog world.

not everywhere, of course.

but if you've already got an offer, a lot of the hard part is done. they will train you, try to make you succeed, and have your back. Just take it seriously and write high quality software. Learn from your colleagues, ask questions about everything, respect your code reviewers, always be willing to learn new things. You're lucky if you've got an offer in Copenhagen, it's a wonderful place to work.

[smoky quest]

It's a lot more ambiguous than that.
While employment is typically at will, it also means great employees will be in great demand, and thus employers need to make sure they remain happy to stay

The way I tend to explain US vs EU is sorts of:

• US has a lower mean but much higher standard deviation
• EU has a higher mean but much lower standard deviation

Meaning that if you are in trouble in the USA, you will be up to your neck in shit. While in the EU, there will always be a safety net but much lower prospects.
To be noted though that in the USA, software engineers are in a privileged category

It also permeates a lot in the culture where in EU, people would wait for you to be profitable to join you. While in the US, you could have bought a house and moved across the continent in 2 weeks and people ask you to let them know if you ever start anything (ie. startup)

[rare sand]

yeah, "more ambiguous" is probably a very good way to put that.

[smoky quest]

yep. Similarly, if it's easier to let go of people, it means it's also easier to take a chance on someone and hire them

Nothing is perfect and it ends up being a set of trade offs

[rare sand]

Sure. but I've never had trouble getting jobs here, even for jobs I was not really qualified for. But I wouldn't trade the psychological safety of knowing I'm almost unfireable for anything.

I've worked for American companies (IBM, actually), and that was one of the reasons I really hated it.

[smoky quest]

If you are good, you won't have any issue with psychological safety either.
But yeah it can be scary as seen from europe

And it also depends on how you view society at large as well (the good and bad). (and that would go beyond the scope of this channel as well)

However, as a software engineer, working in the US is an opportunity rather than a risk. You would be likely to be able to retire in your forties, will be catered for and most of the costs you take for granted in EU would be taken care of by your employer (ie. health care). And that's not even counting the potential impact you can have on hundred of millions of users

[rare sand]

I'm not saying "don't work for American companies", just reflecting on my own experience and comparing the two, since I was asked.

I think your perspective is entirely valid

[smoky quest]

that's fair. I am just trying to bring a bit of nuance, having been on both sides as well

[rare sand]

although increasingly, I think some of those lines are blurring - both the good and the bad ones.

especially post-pandemic

[smoky quest]

yeah, I do see a lot of the bad being imported without necessarily bringing the good parts

[rare sand]

European companies can often also find that huge impact, as it's easier than ever to get into markets that were almost impenetrable before. For example, China and the US.

we're getting paid more and more as european employers are suddenly competing with US companies willing to hire 100% remote workers, post-pandemic.

[smoky quest]

definitely!
But equity is still not permeating much in EU. And with regards to funding, it's often easier for founders to move to the US than getting adequate funding in EU (ex: datadog). Plus the general attitude to fund existing large companies at the cost of the local ecosystem (ex: any recent sovereign cloud initiative)

As a whole, the EU workforce is well educated and equipped but ill prepared to compete with US and Chinese competitors

[plucky urchin]

hey guys

[rare sand]

I think you may be underestimating EU engineers a little, but we'll see.

[smoky quest]

I would be more than happy to be proven wrong 😉

[gilded valley]

And with regards to funding, it's often easier for founders to move to the US than getting adequate funding in EU (ex: datadog).

I don't think that's true. Anecdotally I hear of a lot of successful EU start-ups even in countries like Lithuania where the cost of labour is much lower but the quality of said labour is still pretty good. London, Amsterdam, and Zurich are all very big tech cities with plenty of startups.

you can also gain access to the US market without actually moving there:
https://sifted.eu/articles/european-startups-us-expansion/

[smoky quest]

It's less about gaining access to market and more about the funding you get.

Although US markets are very much different from the EU ones (and less fragmented)

[gilded valley]

This is something that there's reasonably good data on. I haven't looked yet, but my guess is that over the last 10 years or so EU funding has been rising faster than US funding, and that access to venture capital funding is more sector dependant in the EU than in the US https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=VC_INVEST