career-advice

[smoky quest]

Not sure how common would be defined here, but I did see some cases where the team is too small to have a full on-call rotation and thus pooled some of the services ownership with other teams.
Or other cases where expertise is sought

[honest pivot]

I would love to understand a bit more how code review is actually supposed to work. We need to establish a more formal process at my place. I'm a little confused how it can be a "knowledge sharing independent of seniority" activity, when I thought the purpose was to help keep the code in the codebase up to a certain quality.

[marsh wind]

What's a full on call rotation?

[smoky quest]

Some engineers are on-call for their services. Meaning that if there are any issues, they are available and ready to jump on the problem to resolve them asap. It does have an impact on their quality of life since they need to always have a laptop and connection ready and could be called even in the middle of the night.
And you would typically have one person in the team on such duty at a given time and you rotate the people within the owners of the code. So if you do rotations of 1 week, that means you may be on-call an entire week once a month if your team is 3-4 people.
If you have more people, the time during which you are on-call is less frequent and less annoying.

[native nova]

Any suggestions on resources for learning how to get the most out of a code review, especially from the education side?

I'm self taught (or teaching, rather), and looking to learn how to best approach code reviews and other development processes for both my current role (PjM) and my future role as a dev.

[smoky quest]

There are entire books on the topic, but here is a mini tl;dr:

• Automate all the possible bikeshedding. That means space vs tabs, code style and conventions
• Code reviews are an opportunity to make things better. Not to prove the reviewer knows more or to shame the reviewee
• Reviews are done at multiple levels. They could be done at the approach/feature/solution level (ex: do we even need to do that? what are the trade off of that solution to the problem?), architecture (ex: oop design, or cross systems design), availability, scalability, and making sure a second pair of eyes can look at it (ex: everyone makes mistakes or forget something)
• It's also a way to ensure people don't become lazy. While you may set a standard to have tests, there is always the "I am in a hurry, so I am skipping it and coming back to it later" creeping in. So having a reviewer pushing back on these excuses can be useful
• If the reviewer is more junior, it's a great opportunity for them to ask clarifications about some of the code/architecture or why X was done a specific way. Sometimes it can bring unexpected questions or solutions
• In terms of process, you may not always have someone around. In these cases, you would have a retro-review (or whatever name is given by the org), where you check in first and will get it reviewed asap after the fact, and will handle the feedback then

[honest pivot]

I would say that we do focus on architecture/design questions. But only a few of us (myself and one other guy) have enough knowledge to really understand the decisions being made there. I'm not really sure how to manage, because it's too much code to read, and if one of us is not involved in the discussion, I guarantee antipatterns will turn up everywhere.

[smoky quest]

That's where you flip the question around: how to make sure the culture or process of the team ensure these questions are brought up?

• It could be through mentorship and training (ex: specifically picking the reviewer of your code so they can learn a specific pattern you are using)
• It could be by suggestion. For instance using the PR review templates where you ask that question on every PR
• It could be through process by enforcing it

[honest pivot]

There's a strong culture of "Well, I got it to work this way, why would I bother with that other way?" and it's very hard to argue against working code.

[smoky quest]

I could think of:

• Maintenance
• Friction to update to changing requirements
• Testability

working code is not an excuse for shitty code

[honest pivot]

Maintenance is my usual argument. Things are pretty well tested, thankfully. Changing requirements are hard to foresee, and it would be foolish to make everything too generic.

[smoky quest]

If you also look at career ladders in general, writing code with a certain quality is part of the criteria to advance to more senior levels.
(ex: https://dresscode.renttherunway.com/blog/ladder)

With regards to change in requirement, I would definitely reject any PR that introduces tight coupling throughout the code and would prevent future changes without extensive efforts. Or changes which completely break through the separation of interface/implementation just because it's easier

[outer relic]

We allocate less time for design and development so we have more time for debugging

[honest pivot]

Sure, although sometimes it can be hard to see exactly what's been done. We have a serious problem with overly-large merge requests.

[summer roost]

"that's how it's always been done"

[outer relic]

lol yeah boy

[smoky quest]

They get the first one free with a warning. But I would push back and make them redo their PR until it's small enough afterward.
Sometimes pain is a strong motivator

[marsh wind]

In our team I try to endorse and push for atomic commits to help with reviews and also to avoid tangled shit

[honest pivot]

How does one redo something to make it smaller? After it's already done, I mean

[outer relic]

what's good enough for debugging punchcards is good enough for these newfangled languages...

[honest pivot]

Unfortunately I don't actually have the authority to make anyone do anything. So I need to use persuasion.

[smoky quest]

they create multiple branches and split their work across them

[summer roost]

Break that one change up into small pieces. Refactor stuff, them make changes to it, instead of doing both in one commit.

[outer relic]

so what IS the python equiv of taping over chads?

[smoky quest]

pull in whoever has that authority. They are accountable for the health of their team and product

[honest pivot]

haha

The only person who has the authority is much too busy, and is not interested in there existing any coding standards beyond "PEP 8".

[outer relic]

lol you say that as if it is simkple: pull in the person with authority

[summer roost]

code reviewers should have the ability to say "no" to a change.

[outer relic]

if they have authority they are immune to the desires of lesser beings

[summer roost]

if the code reviewer says "no" and the person who requested the change is unwilling to compromise, then the only solution is that a team lead or the like gets involved and mediates.

[honest pivot]

How does this work with everyone reviewing everyone? How do I encourage a culture where people are actually willing to say "no"?

[outer relic]

change human nature?

[summer roost]

in my experience, it's easier to get humans to say "no" than "yes", heh

[smoky quest]

you don't say no.
You say "yes and..." with whatever bar is needed to be met

[summer roost]

yeah, I'd agree with that.

[outer relic]

The hardest thing to do it to convince a man to work on idea he himself did not come up with

@smoky quest that is improv not devOps :d

[summer roost]

maybe if there's something you want changed, but the person wants this merge request closed ASAP, you say "OK, I'll approve this, but I'm also going to enter a ticket to fix X and Y as soon as we can get to them"

[honest pivot]

Yeah, this is what I try to do. But we are reaching a point where I personally can't follow everything.

[smoky quest]

sprint retros are also a good opportunity to bring things

[marsh wind]

What's the team or company structure /hierarchy?

[honest pivot]

Oh man, imagine having retrospectives. Or sprints!

[summer roost]

I can't really think of a time when I've rejected an entire pull request. Something has gone quite wrong already if someone spends time implementing a feature and I look at it and say "What? No!"

so, if you find yourself in a position where a bad approach is commonly being taken to solve some problem, it suggests to me that more up-front planning is needed, to prevent wasted work.

[smoky quest]

if you have such lousy leadership, it may be time to look elsewhere

[honest pivot]

Flat. With everyone kind of on their own to think of how to do things. I've occasionally had some ideas that required more people than just myself, so we formed kind of an ad hoc team and I was able to lead those just fine. But overall there is no fixed structure.

[vapid jay]

What does this do?

[honest pivot]

I'm working on my CV this weekend, in fact..

[marsh wind]

Do you work now on a specific product /project in the company? Or just some r&d and prototyping?

[honest pivot]

R&D and prototyping.

[summer roost]

retrospectives are my second most favorite process improvement, after code reviews. Retrospectives don't often solve problems, but they do air problems and get people to start talking about them, and it turns out that just talking about problems and making sure everyone's aware of them in and of itself tends to cause those problems to become less troubling over time - either because people start slowly addressing them, or at least because people have had a chance to vent about them and so they're less bothered by them

[smoky quest]

do you also have skip level 1-1? (I assume not)

[summer roost]

I'd bet on no 1-1's at all...

[honest pivot]

Retrospectives and sprints would be great. I am trying to slowly push us to adopt some agile practices. I got us into the habit of daily standups which is helping a lot so far.

[marsh wind]

What's that?

[summer roost]

a one-on-one meeting, on a regular schedule, with your team lead's boss.

[smoky quest]

typical 1-1 is between a manager and their subordinates. Skip level 1-1 are like between the director and the employees of their manager.
Ex: director -> manager -> engineer.
1-1:
director -> manager
manager -> engineer

skip level 1-1:
director -> engineer

[marsh wind]

For some reasons rétrospectives didn't work out for us at all. As in, people just were saying nothing mostly. So we kinda stopped doing those

[vapid jay]

ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'selenium' >== help plz, i've done pip install seleniu

[summer roost]

that's.. interesting. I don't think I've ever had a team that didn't want to complain

I wonder why that happened.

[smoky quest]

Were they feeling safe? Were people outside of the team present (ex: director)?

[marsh wind]

You mean my case? Nope, just the team

[honest pivot]

We don't have regular 1-on-1's. I could ask for one.

[marsh wind]

Idk really. The team is fairly small, basically it's me, 2 fullstacks devs and 1.5 android devs. Maybe that's a reason

[smoky quest]

That could be an opportunity to bring with your director that your team doesn't even have their basic shit together and some specific ways to improve things, without necessarily stabbing your manager/lead in the back

[honest pivot]

To be clear, there are not so many levels. My team is the only team.

Unless it's actually two teams. Maybe it's big enough now

[smoky quest]

I was referring to the manager of your manager.
If your team doesn't have basic processes and your manager is not supportive of improving things beyond pep 8, they are clearly not doing their job and will require some coaching or replacement

(but that's your manager's manager problem)

[marsh wind]

Also those full stack guys are full remote In other country...

[summer roost]

that could mean that you're doing a good enough job surfacing issues that there's nothing new to bring up in a retrospective. But I suspect it more likely means that the team was unwilling to talk about issues, and if so that speaks to a different problem that needs solving.

[summer roost]

ah. That actually explains it.

[marsh wind]

M?

[smoky quest]

If we have nothing to say, we would also default to some default topic.
And we would also make sure to highlight things that did go well, not just the negative. That helps opening up people too as well

[summer roost]

Often, remote developers don't feel like they can speak up (less job security on outsourced jobs), and they feel like they don't have much to gain by bringing up issues (less investment in the team culture)

[honest pivot]

My manager is the CEO. That's why he's too busy to be thinking about these details. But he doesn't really recognize the importance of them, and I think there is an awkward social dynamic where he's unwilling to promote anyone to officially lead the team.

[smoky quest]

wait, that changes a lot.
That's an opportunity for you to get the blessing from him to improve things

Why would he say no to you if you come with a specific list of improvements? It will save him time and improve the velocity of the team

[marsh wind]

Maybe... Although in this case those guys are employed by agency in their country. And they have job security in that way, even if we would decide to cut them from next day....

[summer roost]

all the more reason for them to not have any vested interest in improving things.

[marsh wind]

That's actually and interesting thought. I might try to revisit and bring rétrospectives back

[marsh wind]

True I suppose. Although one of them is with us almost 2 years... Longer than I am 😂. I do discuss with him a lot also on team or interaction related subjects

[smoky quest]

Some of the things we do:

• people get called out in turns so they know they have their time to speak
• we maintain a doc week over week
• There is a list of things that did go well
• There is a list of things that did not go so well
• People can +1 items if they feel similarly
• There is a list of focus items. They can be things to improve or things to continue doing
• We may review jira or how something went or vent. Or a specific question could be asked in terms of how people feel about a specific topic

[honest pivot]

Like I said, I think he's very reluctant to promote anybody "over" the others. I have come to him with process suggestions before, but anything that has the appearance of "using up too much of people's time" will not succeed. In some cases, I've just started doing things without asking (if they are small enough that they don't take a lot of people's time, and people can be easily persuaded, such as the daily standups).

[summer roost]

Like I said, I think he's very reluctant to promote anybody "over" the others.
That's, like, the entire job description for "CEO"

[smoky quest]

I have seen it in some startups where the CEO/founder is unwilling to commit time/effort to something but also unwilling to delegate. That did not end well for them

[honest pivot]

I mean, this is my only experience of this phenomenon so far, but I get the feeling this is a super awkward phase in the growth of a startup, where there were not any "levels" before, but now you need one, and somebody has to occupy it.

[honest pivot]

Absolutely. This is something I noticed months ago and have been watching carefully.

[smoky quest]

You don't scale your company without trusting and delegating. That's the whole point

[marsh wind]

That rarely end well in general be it ceo or someone in position of power who doesn't use it and don't delegate

I suppose there's no CTO too? Also what kind of background this CEO has?

[honest pivot]

No, it's just the CEO

Has an academic background

[summer roost]

it's literally the job of the CEO to keep things running smoothly. If he's not willing to manage things like the quality of your codebase himself, he needs to give someone else that authority.

[marsh wind]

Like us you mean, some phd /post doc or researcher and now a company ceo?

[honest pivot]

I wish I was in a position to explain to him these very obvious mistakes he is making. But I'm sure it would come off as self-interested, since of course I think I should be that person.

[summer roost]

they are failing at being a CEO if they are unable or unwilling to do some job themselves, and unable or unwilling to give someone else the authority to do that job.

[marsh wind]

If he has no or little industry XP that does explain a bit

[honest pivot]

Yeah, I think he's invested in keeping up with the technical side of things himself, and he treats the engineers a bit like a research group.

[smoky quest]

implementing these processes does not even require him to promote you (although it would be nice). The only requirement is to listen to the idea and weight the pros/cons of the debt your company is creating right now

[marsh wind]

I'd still try as last resort. Especially if you are the person who could put things in some order.

Sometimes start-up founders from academy are getting Co founders to be ceo from outside academia

Bcs they might be very good with tech side but not with implementation of the right process

[honest pivot]

I think one difficulty is to make sure I fully understand what processes need to be implemented. I've never worked in a software company before, so what I've learned about processes is from reading.

[compact yarrow]

Hi guys I am new here

[smoky quest]

I see. It does remove the argument of having it experienced before.
But you can still approach it as an experiment that can be cancelled or tweaked or prolonged if it works

[honest pivot]

Yeah, that's how I introduced daily standups, as a "Let's try this for a month and decide whether it's useful" thing

[summer roost]

that's fine, as long as he's able to do that job. If he's not doing that job up to any reasonable level and it's hurting your team's ability to deliver, that's a problem.

[summer roost]

This works really well, in my experience. People are often willing to try the experiment, and often willing to stick with it once they've tried it out.

[honest pivot]

Regarding a formal review process, of course we do kinda informally discuss everything that's being merged. But it's beginning to grow to a level where that's hard to keep up with. Plus we've got some new hires who are literally asking what the processes are. CEO is resistant to the idea of having a formal process (probably related to some of the potential pitfalls mentioned way above, about people using it as a cudgel to assert their superior intellect or whatever).

[smoky quest]

"I am just documenting our current way of doing things in this wiki"

[honest pivot]

That's not a bad idea. Would have to set up a wiki first.

[smoky quest]

github/gitlab have wikis or repositories

[summer roost]

or use a google doc, or whatever. Anything that can be collaboratively edited.

lower overhead is better.

[honest pivot]

Right. We might even already have one set up! What I mean is we'd have to learn how to use it 🙂

[summer roost]

a word document on a shared drive might be good enough. Use whatever you've got that people can edit.

[smoky quest]

and something you can spam everyone with a link

[honest pivot]

I think one of the trickier things to put into place is gonna be actually having sprints, in the sense of planning ahead what we're going to do for a couple weeks, estimating story points and all that.

[summer roost]

that's relatively low value, in the grand scheme of things. Higher value is having a prioritized backlog of things to do

[honest pivot]

Well, having a backlog is a kind of planning ahead, isn't it?

[summer roost]

yes, but not in the same way as sprint planning is. In terms of the Agile rituals, I think "backlog grooming" is much more important than "sprint planning".

Knowing what things are highest priority is much more important than saying which of those things the team is going to work on in the next sprint.

[honest pivot]

Sure, that makes sense

We also have difficulty prioritizing. In general I think we're indecisive. 😛

[smoky quest]

Look at frameworks like RICE scoring to help prioritizing

You also don't have to plan many weeks in advance. You can start by planning one sprint at a time, which can be as short as 1-2 weeks.
There are also other approaches like kanban

That said, regardless of the startup, if the engineers can't plan 1-2 weeks ahead, besides their inability to focus, that implies something is wrong somewhere

[summer roost]

I'd like a team to be able to say "In the next 2 weeks we'll aim to finish X and Y and Z", but if they can't do that, having them agree that "the next tasks we're going to take on are X and Y, followed by Z and A" is pretty good

just so that, when X and Y are done, the team knows what comes next

[honest pivot]

I mean, I guess this is what happens. It's not like we're sitting here doing nothing. We're doing many things, and some of those things take multiple weeks, so in that sense, we know what we're doing for the next while.

I guess what I'm getting at is that when there is more work to be done than there are people to do it, we don't always have a clear picture of what should be done first.

[smoky quest]

The problem is rarely about doing nothing vs something. Most failed companies have hard working people.
The problem is more about working on the right thing

[summer roost]

and making sure everyone's pulling in the same direction

someone needs to be in charge of deciding what things to do in what order.

[smoky quest]

or have self organizing teams, but that does require some organization 😉

[honest pivot]

At the same time, I wouldn't say we're always lacking direction. Like I think it's kinda mixed. We do have a meeting every week where we discuss what we're doing and occasionally get re-prioritized.

But we've definitely had times where everything suddenly shifts the next week.

And some important things have gone un-done for a long time in favor of (what I think are) less important things.

[summer roost]

everything suddenly shifting isn't in and of itself a problem - for a small business, prioritize will shift, and reacting to changing needs quickly is important.

as long as the shifting is for good reasons, that's fine.

[smoky quest]

Communication is also key into the selection of the priorities.
It helps surface the lack of context (maybe you are missing some key information) and if not, helps surface better solutions

[honest pivot]

Sure, sometimes we've had to drop everything because there was suddenly something very important to do, I get that. Other times it's just been a whim. It hasn't caused a serious problem yet.

[smoky quest]

my point is it's typically never at a whim. You don't change targets of one of more engineers suddenly without a reason.
Making these reasons apparent avoid confusion (ex: we are working on the wrong thing), and ensure the engineer understand what we are trying to achieve. It helps switch the mindset from the engineer as an executant to an engineer as a problem solver

[summer roost]

the other piece of discipline that scrum might bring to your company, then, is the idea of having potentially releasable product increments on a regular schedule. Every 2 weeks (or however long your sprint is), things should be left in a stable state. You shouldn't get interrupted in the middle of a task, but switching from working on small, but deliverable, pieces of feature A to working on small, but deliverable, pieces of feature B from one week to the next is reasonable.

if it reaches the point where someone is working on a small, well defined task and someone gets interrupted in the middle of it to work on something else, that's a bit worrisome. That would literally suggest that prioritize are changing in a major way from one day to the next.

[honest pivot]

I think it's more that he thinks people can focus on multiple things at once. Like he'll want a new thing but not understand he can't have both the new thing and the old thing, and needs to decide which one he wants first. This doesn't change on a daily basis, thankfully.

But also, our "tasks" are not really small things that can be done in a week, usually. Since it's more R&D oriented, it's not always something you can break up like that.

[summer roost]

The desire to focus on more than one thing at once is a place where the prioritized backlog comes in handy - the backlog is a way to force the business side to be explicit about what things they want, and what order they want you to focus on them in.

[smoky quest]

Give me any task and I will break them in weekly chunks. There are literally no task which can't be broken up

[summer roost]

figuring out how to break tasks up is a skill that takes practice, though.

[honest pivot]

I don't disagree. But when a research task is something like "Understand X", it is the researcher's job to figure out how to break that problem up into smaller pieces. This is very hard and some researchers are certainly better at it than others.

If someone else could already break the problem up, then it would be solved.

[smoky quest]

That's fine. Rome wasn't built in a day.
I do also deal with some open ended tasks and you can always break them up even if you don't know the solution. Because first you will have to survey some solution/research/design space. And that phrase can be broken up in different pieces.
Ex: break up the research by algorithms or family of topics or approaches to try

[summer roost]

those research problems sometimes just benefit from explicit timeboxing. "Spend up to 1 week researching X and then summarize your findings" is a small task that results in something deliverable (a summary) at the end - and based on what gets reported, the team can decide whether or not to invest further research

[honest pivot]

And yeah, I am pretty good at breaking up these kinds of things, but I'm not in charge, so 😛

[smoky quest]

that's something you could still try to suggest. It sets up better expectations and lowers the anxiety

[honest pivot]

And yes, "spend X amount of time thinking about it" is great. But then you don't also tell that person to do something else at the same time.

[smoky quest]

If a manager/ceo/lead see some engineer working on a task for days/weeks without clear progress or results, they will be more tempted to interrupt them. And these long running tasks are also traps for more junior engineers to get lost in the weeds

[honest pivot]

Right. I did help break up a very big task into a lot of very small ones for a new guy who joined about a month ago, and now he's doing really great figuring out all the small steps. Hopefully I can advocate for doing this more often across the team.

[summer roost]

for what it's worth, this is the problem that sprint planning and story points are supposed to solve. Making it clear that there's a certain set of things that the team is able to focus on, and that giving them any more work will result in them dropping work on some of those things.

[honest pivot]

Yes, that's exactly why I would like to adopt some of these practices.

[summer roost]

if you're trying to convince the CEO that they're needed, one option would be to explain what problem(s) each of the Agile rituals is supposed to solve, and then cite some examples of times when your team faced exactly those problems, to show that they would be helpful to your team.

backlog grooming makes business priorities transparent to the development team. When you don't have that, developers don't know what's coming, or what task to pick up when they finish one or hit a bottleneck or breaking point on one.

sprint planning makes development team capacity transparent to the business. When you don't have that, the business side doesn't know how quickly the developers are likely to reach the work that has been prioritized, and they don't know how disruptive it would be to ask the developers to switch tracks and work on something else.

Etc.

retrospectives are supposed to accomplish continuous process refinement - identifying pain points and iterating to address them from one sprint to the next.

[honest pivot]

Yeah I have tried suggesting the "time prediction" aspect, but I think this is hard (especially since you don't have accurate time prediction until you collect enough data, which requires you to implement sprint planning for a while).

[summer roost]

if you want to convince him that the Agile process is better than what you're doing today, you'd need to start by proving that there are weaknesses in your current process - places where it's costing the business or the developers money, time, good will, effort, etc.

[honest pivot]

Yeah, it's also tricky because what we do is not strictly software development. I mean, we write software, and our main product is a piece of software, but we do a lot of more research-oriented things. I actually spend more time writing on paper than writing code.

[summer roost]

I'm not sure how much that changes things.

but you might find that Kanban addresses your needs better than Scrum does - you might want to look into it

[honest pivot]

I agree with you, I'm sure there is a way that some Agile stuff will help us. It's just that "we're not a software company" is a thing that has literally been said. 🙂

[summer roost]

"We're not a software company, just a company whose main product is software" is a dumb take, and whoever said that is wrong.

if your CEO said that, then either he has a fundamental misunderstanding of what "a software company" is, or he has a fundamental misunderstanding of how his company makes its money 🙂

[honest pivot]

I think it's more of a marketing angle. Of course the product is ultimately software.

[summer roost]

if he thinks that's true, it's worrisome. 🙂

[smoky quest]

sounds like the old school companies who got replaced by software companies

[brittle thorn]

Yes this is very true

[honest pivot]

In the era of vehicles with subscription features, it definitely seems like the line between "software company" and "not software company" is heavily blurred.

[summer roost]

if the company would cease to exist if it stopped making software, it's a software company.

[modest hazel]

1. Is knowing how to make stuff enough to get a job? For example I know how to make an api a good api with design and stuff but I don't know how that works under the hood.

Might be unrelated
||2) How can I learn backend stuff like https, sockets, internet layers, basically backend dev stuff practically? Because when I watch or read stuff my mind just yeet them off the next day

3. Any backend related project that gets used by a company||

[smoky quest]

Practice makes perfect. That's how you can learn.

What's your current situation? That may help tailor a bit more the answer

[modest hazel]

I'm currently a highschool student looking forward to a part time work or internship on college

[modest hazel]

I mean what can I do? I don't know what to make that relates to https the headers and stuff like that

[smoky quest]

then first and foremost, aim for a CS degree.
See also https://roadmap.sh/backend for a set of skills

Most companies won't deal with hiring part time students until they hit college though

[elfin salmon]

Im a product controller (finance/accountant) in a bank that has quite good internal transfer opportunities. I am thinking of learning programming for career resilience to maybe one day change over to an innovation dept or maybe even move out. Are there any programming skills that goes with accounting that may be super valuable?
How should I go about learning programming as I work in something not relevant for the next like 3 years, I always feel like whenever I learn python I forget everything if i dont apply. Do I slowly create portfolios or do mini projects myself as im learning? How do I go about doing that is there any free resourcess? (I dont think I should be taking masters in programming related courses)

[peak halo]

are there any cumbersome parts of your workflow that you could automate with a simple program (even if it doesn't have an interface with a window and stuff)? because you could learn transferrable programming skills while doing that, while improving your work experience right now.

my first job when I was 18 was working the front counter at a bakery, but I also did some office assistance stuff. if I had written some basic scripts, I could have supercharged my productivity on that side of things.

[plush frost]

What can Python be used for as far as ethical hacking // hacking, and general info-sec / cyber sec ?

[vapid jay]

If you asked me to teach you id make you do a sort of ticker/positions visualizator

Project would involve:
1 - Get the current price for a ticker, first from one, then various providers
2- Calculate the unrealized gains from a position
3- Persistent storage of the positions
4- Display these in cli, tui, and gui
5- Store both the movements and the positions in a database
6- Have that database be offsite
7- Implement graphs in each of the three displays
8- Web/pure JS/mobile versions of this
9- Refactor all this
10- At this point you should be able to delve into some deeper stuff by analyzing this data

[vapid jay]

Im developing a project / website for my portfolio using React + Django, and I think I need to use some sort of API. What should I use that would be the most hirable / in demand skill to have on my resume for this project? Not sure if Django REST Framework is the biggest one

[smoky quest]

look on indeed/linkedin for the in demand skills. But with regards to backend, python/java/c# are at the top.
Note also that companies would care a lot more about the skills themselves than the language

[vapid jay]

im talking specifically about what API / API framework to use if im already using React + Django

[smoky quest]

API for?

No one hires for which API you know

[vapid jay]

Frontend to talk to my backend

using react and django, and yes I know but i dont know what large companies use as an industry standard

[smoky quest]

django is fine for that.

https://www.cosmicpython.com/ or https://www.manning.com/books/microservices-patterns might be relevant books for you

[vapid jay]

fastapi?

[vapid jay]

is that used more in large tech companies?

dunno, i got a friend who is in charge of documenting one built around that for his job

did not look that complex to me tbh, looked like the click module on steroids

django kinda achieves sth similar though, but this had the "plus"??? i guess, that you configured the endpoint via decorators

[novel umbra]

Hi People, just wanted to ask is it okay to take career break and learn stuff on my own? will it affect my future in getting job?

[near ocean]

What do you mean take a break, as in quit your job? I would personally not do that, theres plenty of time after a 9-5 to learn whatever you want to learn

[novel umbra]

yeah, quitting my job so that i get to read books and also practice coding

i mean i just started my career and don't feel like I am doing something great

[near ocean]

Why cant you do all this learning and practicing in your free time?

[novel umbra]

Because I am already burned doing my regular work and understanding project.

Also I haven't got any masters degree, so to compensate it I just want to learn on my own for few months atleast i will learn something full fledged

[near ocean]

Quitting your job brings up 2 issues i can think of right now,
Financial issues
Questions by interviewers about what you were doing during your break

[velvet mica]

Do you reckon you could commit 30 min to coding daily whether it be before or after work? Consistency triumphs all tbh.

[novel umbra]

yeah I can do that

[novel umbra]

As of now there is no financial burden on me, i have my savings and living in my own house. 2nd question is what i fear

[velvet mica]

As stated by @near ocean , the financial aspect is important and finding a job can be a challenge in of itself. So using spare time to code would be a better choice

[novel umbra]

Yeah thanks for the advice and I will look these aspects and decide what to do 🙂

[vapid jay]

do you have an year's rent?

[novel umbra]

Actually its my own home so i dont have to pay rent

[vapid jay]

then you are golden

30 mins arent enough, you need at least 2hs per session if you wanna get in the zone

yet, counting hours is stupid, you can do with 15 min a day, 4 hours the next, etc

once you grasp the underlying logic it all becomes very fuzzy

[novel umbra]

yeah thats what I am thinking, just take a break and learn core cs concepts well like DSA, system design, and one good framework and then apply again

[vapid jay]

imo

its cs 101 to get a grasp of whats possible

then its practice

if you wanna go super student you can grab a module and wrap it fully

but honestly its kinda of a trade

[novel umbra]

yeah now that my pay is also low so its useless to work

[vapid jay]

i dont mean pay

i mean like i know cs majors who look to me like im some sort of programming god

and i don't know fuck shit of what they learn

[novel umbra]

yeah for me atleast in my 4 years of engineering, the concepts are too advanced to grasp and now when im reading them i am understanding everything

[vapid jay]

programming is not computer science, computer science is very interesting and has a fuck-load to offer, but is not the same as programming, yet less for a client

if you got 4 years of engineering then you are very well suited to become a great programmer

[novel umbra]

yes that's what interests me honestly. To be "useful"

[vapid jay]

a cs major also is, my only point is its a trade

say you as an engineer go tomorrow to a bridge building site, the main plumber would do rings around you about plumbling requirements for building a bridge

even though he isn't an engineer and knows fuck anything about engineering, he has experience

[narrow torrent]

Is this the official Python? xD

[vapid jay]

but, as an engineer, give it some years and you gotta do not rings but fucking metaverse 8d spheres over the plumber

same shit with programming, don't take it as simple, but with a high education you should be able to dominate it and go meta over it, given some experience

[novel umbra]

I am not expert but yeah i got it

[novel umbra]

Sorry if i asked this, guide me to correct forum?

[vapid jay]

you got some math and building priors which should help you go over the mean of what a programmer is, given some years of experience

[narrow torrent]

I dont even know forum of Python D:

[vapid jay]

as for how you should learn programming

i would send you to the wolves if you asked me to teach you, given your background. Id ask you to come up with a problem, and then id try to help you figure out how to solve it in increasingly harder ways

[novel umbra]

thats great, can i pm you here?

[vapid jay]

ultimately a computer is a list, everything else you think it is, is just an illusion in your mind

yeah, no problem

[elfin salmon]

damn sounds like a very extensive project, can i even do this LOL

yea was thinking if there are courses that I can do that gives guidance on projects to add on portfolio or smth. Idk whats the norm to study or build up ur knowledge in the programming world. But banks do allows us to use python these days

[vapid jay]

YES

follow the steps

[elfin salmon]

okie thanks for the advise!

[peak halo]

!warn 932344332642574387 Please do not post messages intended to promote your business.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @night quartz.

[elfin salmon]

just an analyst, yeah we can use

[elfin salmon]

do you have any free courses u would recommend (preferably free or udemy)

[hearty patrol]

Hello, is there anyone here who finished a degree in Electronics Engineering and now working on the related field, can I ask for a short Interview in a couple of minutes? It's a required activity for my subject. thank you

[vapid jay]

fifa19ps5

[inner wren]

@lean nymph Please don't try to ping @everyone or @here. Your message has been removed. If you believe this was a mistake, please let staff know!

[lean nymph]

@kind oar

i need help with my computing hw can you help me?

[ivory sluice]

please see #❓｜how-to-get-help for python help. this is the wrong channel :) and don't try to ping everyone. we have 300k users

[lean nymph]

soirry

[light radish]

I am an electrical engineer (Nuclear power plant) but I just got an offer for python developer so I will be switching roles soon.

[worldly fern]

anyone here use granta edupack

[hearty patrol]

I'm sorry sir but my professor is very specific with the course, but i appreciate the help 😁

[sharp briar]

https://www.coolfreecv.com/
I tried using the top left template but after downloading the colored parts were misformatted. Can I open it in a different mode or is it just not going to work?

[daring orchid]

Hey...what is better in cloud computing and data analytics for a beginner having basic knowledge of python language

[peak halo]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

[daring orchid]

You didn't understand my question?

[peak halo]

No. You're asking if you should learn about cloud computing, or learn about data analysis?

or are you asking something else? if you're asking something else, please restate your question differently so that I can figure out what you meant.

[daring orchid]

I am asking to start my carrer in cloud computing or data analytics

[peak halo]

I think that depends on your interests and the job market where you are. Python is probably the most popular language for data analytics and the like. I'm not sure what careers in cloud computing involve.

[daring orchid]

okay

[spark canyon]

hey

html is so hard

[peak halo]

do you have a career question?

[delicate bane]

if you have an internship, whats the best approach to asking the company about potential to transition to full-time after your internship is over ?

[untold herald]

I'm 16 and trying to build up skills/knowledge for different areas of programming, such as web dev. Yet I don't know what I want to actually do and I was wondering where could I find a python dev job listing. There I would be taking a look at requirements for the job, and the ones I do not meet I consider learning them.

[near ocean]

Look in pins here but also linkedin, indeed, etc

[untold herald]

Thx 😄

[dense mesa]

Yeah

[exotic sleet]

i'm a third year computer science student

what kinds of internships are there besides full stack and data science? I seriously cannot find anything besides these two

[worldly fern]

ill message u later just confused a lil

[dense mesa]

Please ping me from an off topic channel :)

[unreal jackal]

Hey! This might be a very specific question and coming from a 17yr old but, if you're swedish and studied "Civilingenjör - Datateknik" I got some questions. Just basic ones.

[sturdy cosmos]

! resources

[simple zealot]

How much time it will get a job as a software developer? In python

[dense mesa]

Depends on many things such as your current experience, past work experience, time to commit etc

[simple zealot]

I have Basic knowledge of python

[dense mesa]

Ok cool, then it could be a few weeks if you have prior programming experience, a few months if you need to do projects, a few years if you can only learn part time

[sudden quartz]

The irony is understandable but I do imagine a position itself can be remote but you need to visit somewhere rarely

[sudden quartz]

You can accomplish your job duties totally remote, but mabye have a company summit when a project ships or something

[summer roost]

I'm guessing they mean that you may need to travel ~5 weeks per year. The normal job duties are done remotely, but you're expected to travel to conferences or team summits occasionally.

[peak halo]

I think the phrase "100% remote" is used frequently enough that it's easy to use it imprecisely to mean "there is no office at which you regularly appear". Godly's interpretation sounds right to me.

After all, "literally" has been an intensifier for well over 100 years

[ebon sun]

I had to travel only once for my 100% remote job, and that was to fly to DC on my second day of work to meet my boss and the rest of the team and get introduced to the work I was going to do.

My first big boy business trip.

But yeah that might be one reason to travel.

[orchid nymph]

Hello guys

Please suggest me where to begin in cloud computing i wanna be a cloud architect

[dim flame]

Guys

what job can i get with python

[simple zealot]

Thank you appreciate, your working currently?

[elfin salmon]

Just asking for opinions, I have been reading up coding and finance and ended up reading on Quantitative finance a lot and it really seem interesting. Do yall think that I can work 3 years in my firm whilst studying this quant finance and do yall think that making a career switch is viable or worth it? And even if I do not join quant finance the knowledge from self studying is still worth it? How would you guys study this?

[cursive silo]

hello, can anybody tell cloud computing of AI is better

[elfin salmon]

or do yall think quants are dying out better to slowly build into data analyst

[inner wren]

Hey @teal siren!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[worldly fern]

messaged ya as couldnt find one

[vapid jay]

Would 6 months of full time study be enough to get a job as a Python programmer?

[buoyant seal]

What's your background (previous education before that?)

[vapid jay]

Been in a boot camp for 5 weeks but the boot camp is doing mostly Java. We did 1 week of Python and I prefer Python. Been studying Python after boot camp hours. Learnt some SQL and git in the boot camp.

[buoyant seal]

it sounds like a really weak education, tbh.

[buoyant seal]

Some people make wonders and manage in a year to learn enough to do the job from zero. But those are miracle men with undying enthusiasm

but you know, not everyone is a miracle

[vapid jay]

True, did it take you years for to become a software developer?

[buoyant seal]

6 years of university, and when I started my first serious IT job, I started to believe that's where I belong in about 4-6 months time while being exposed to a lot of practice.

[vapid jay]

6 years of a Python degree??!

[buoyant seal]

nah, learning Software Engineering

SWE is not just knowing language, it is a lot of stuff around of it

[vapid jay]

Sure, thanks for sharing your honest advice Darkwind.

[pseudo bone]

So I am a graduate from Germany who just finished my master's. The feeling of dread caused by constant rejection is settling in. I have made a website with my university professor and worked with machine learning for 4 months. I have a few projects here and there in python and java app development as well. I don't know how to make my git hub repository or how to apply for jobs. How to present me in interviews. Every day I wake up with these panic attacks due to the fact that I have no direction and am unable to move out of bed.I have to spend an hour or two just to calm myself down so i can be functional.I am sorry if i make anyone here uncomfortable any advice direction or guidance would be appreciated

[graceful mason]

Probably not (without knowing your base knowledge) - the 6 years is more than average, uni degrees are usually 3 years (4 with a placement year). Take a look at roadmap.sh to get an idea of what sort of knowledge you might be missing out on

[vapid jay]

Learn on how to use Git. Push your projects up to Git and have live demos of your projects on Git. Your personal website should have your projects on there with a bit about your skills. Having a LinkedIn page can help get recruiters contact you. Put your projects on your CV as top thing recruiters can see. Practice some leet code and you will be fine. You might fail some interviews at first but always learn from them until you get the job.

But first learn about Git.

[vapid jay]

Yes I don’t think it takes 6 years of study to get a job. Medicine is only 4 or 5. I didn’t take the person seriously.

I definitely to make sure my gaps. How can I access the roadmap.is? Thank you

How do I access this roadmap.ish Blartzel? I need to

[graceful mason]

roadmap.sh is a website

[vapid jay]

Woah this is awesome, thanks 😊

[gritty rivet]

Please don't take this the wrong way but I'll be direct: If you are having actual panic attacks, that's not simply a career question. Seek professional help.

Beyond that I would say you need to somehow expect and accept rejection. It's not unusual for people entering a new career to be rejected dozens and dozens of times day after day. It hurts and that's fine but you have to understand that this is normal. Every rejection is a piece of information you can use to keep improving your efforts day by day. It's not personal.

Do see lickittoungue's suggestions about how to use GitHub, LinkedIn, etc. If you want feedback on your CV or anything there are always people here willing to help. Good luck!

[peak halo]

It sounds like you need help that we can't provide in this community. You might see what mental health services are available to you. I'm sorry this is difficult for you.

[shadow moss]

Java likely has better career path.

[vapid jay]

Hii

[vapid jay]

I prefer the ease of using Python and it’s more popular now than Java.

[pulsar gyro]

umm that doesn't make any sense, languages don't defined career paths what you do after learning that language is what actually matters. You can start with any mainstream programing language because as a beginner your task is to understand the programing patterns anyway.

python has its own uses java has it's own, and they are both popular in their respective industries/fields of usage

[near ocean]

What are the chances the bossmen would say no to me asking for a better title (without a raise)? And is it petty to ask for a title change for no apparent reason?

Is it reasonable to think they would see it as me trying to polish my cv to leave?

[vapid jay]

Wrong. Java is used in a similar manner to Python. They share the same field.

[true harness]

since when? java is barely used in data science or as a glue language and python isn't nearly as common in large enterprise apps

I wouldn't go that far to say python isn't used in software engineering, it certainly has uses as a glue language

[gilded valley]

Nah. That's not really at all true

[vapid jay]

Just because one language is better than another language in one field, it does not mean they do not have the same role.

[true harness]

sure, but no one's using java for data science the same way they use python

[gilded valley]

The fact they have different typical use cases does.

[pulsar gyro]

@true harness oh wait sorry my discord was bugged for some reason I couldn't see lickitounge's reply on my comment so i thought you were talking to me when u actually replied to lickitounge sorry for the confusion

[vapid jay]

So if Python were to be used in a Java dominated industry/field and overtake them, shall we still omit the term popularity? As the term popularity has no significance at all to some?

[true harness]

what's the point?

[vapid jay]

Python is more popular then Java.

[gilded valley]

By what metric?

[vapid jay]

Global

[gilded valley]

That's not a metric.

[true harness]

sure, but what's the point?

[gilded valley]

Also the popularity isn't remotely relevant to your point that they are the same language

[vapid jay]

That’s the point. The conversation is about the point. Thanks

[true harness]

I thought we were talking about the roles of Java and python

[vapid jay]

Sorry role might be wrong word. I say more that they share the same field. Like you can compare the two. You can’t compare Python and HTML for instance, but you can compare Python and Java.

[true harness]

sure, I see what you mean

[minor karma]

wussap

[weary fable]

Uhm so im very interested in math and shouldi in the future try to get a degree in computer science since that involves alot of math but it also has a high pay

[summer roost]

Some types of software development require a lot of math, but most don't. Data science, machine learning, and 3d graphics require quite a lot of math.

Have you tried coding? Do you like it?

[hybrid ferry]

sup guys, im doin my projects section on my resume and was jw if it'd be fine to have an identical bullet listed in two separate projects? its the same exact set of things i did for them. or should i just reword

[near ocean]

how are they different projects if their summary is identical?

[vapid jay]

shuld i learn c# or pyton ? 🤔

[buoyant seal]

Do you wish going Desktop or Web 😉
C# has some web, but I think it is more Desktopish than Web

[hybrid ferry]

they both machine learning related and i did the exact same leadership / presentation responsibilities

[vapid jay]

what are thos

[buoyant seal]

What would you like for your specialization, developing Applications for windows, or developing Web sites with Server side application in Linux?
Or something else, like developing software for hardware like Drones/Arduino. Choose some specialization, where you wish to be good
Or even wishing to go developing for Androids / Iphones

[unreal jackal]

Python is much smoother and satisfying to write in

[gilded valley]

I don't really think that's true any more. .net core is incredibly popular for the web

And desktop development is increasingly turning into web development thanks to electron

[vapid jay]

i thibk developing applicaton for windows is beter

[near ocean]

just learn a language, your first one does not matter that much

[buoyant seal]

Hehe, it matters what you can do with your language better ;b Which job positions are opened for the language in a major quantity

[vapid jay]

how many languages do i need to know i am already bilingual btw

[near ocean]

there's nothing a beginner can do with a language that matters in the long run, if they get over the basics and realise they cant do web/desktop they just learn another lang

[gilded valley]

Not overly much. It's easy to hop between languages if you're engaged. And if you're setting out to self teach, you have to be

[vapid jay]

ok ill just learn python because snake until i feel like it is that ok

[buoyant seal]

The thing is, some languages are good enough for both things at the same time?
Like Java, can be used for Web dev and Mobile dev at the same time 😉
Less need to hop around

[weary fable]

Coding is interesting and i found it fun experimenting with the limited knowledge I have. But i have another question, do people who get cs majors only focus on a particular field or is the major preparing you for everything

[unreal jackal]

Right now I'm coding C# and python at the same time. The only thing that bothers me is when I mess up the for-loops 😄

[vapid jay]

but c# is cool too 😠

[near ocean]

realistically the time it takes for someone with a good grasp of fundamentals to hop to another lang is negligible
it takes a couple days to get familiar with new syntax and thats about it

[buoyant seal]

;b a bit more required to get acquainted with ecosystem, how to do the common things / which library exist for the things

[vapid jay]

how much do yall think ill be able to learn in 2 and a half motnhs

[near ocean]

thats entirely up to you and how you study

[vapid jay]

how would u recomend me to study

[near ocean]

!resources use the resources in this link, download python, install ipython, and keep a REPL session open at all times

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[unreal jackal]

There's a website called CodeWars which is pretty good if you want small tasks.

[vapid jay]

ok but repl is that black bar that u can write code in and it send u ur results irhgt?

[near ocean]

yes

[vapid jay]

ok ty

[buoyant seal]

Why to need repl, if u have already installed python

[near ocean]

you need python to use the python repl, not sure i understand that

[buoyant seal]

What do u mean by repl
Is it online or offline resource in your definition

[near ocean]

what, the python repl, the interactive session or ipython which is prettier

[summer roost]

A CS major is general knowledge that lays the base knowledge for most coding jobs, but students will usually have concentrations or take extra classes in areas that are particularly interesting to them

[shadow moss]

When companies are hiring, they will prefer candidates who know their company primary language vs someone who doesn't, there is a spin up time for a dev to learn a new language and few companies mainline python where Java is very common mainline language

[oblique furnace]

should I try out flutter or stick with web front end.. I recently finished html and css with js.. now either I can move to vue.js or backend django or switch to mobile dev with flutter

all of this is so interesting but I cant do all at once ..so I am deciding what to stick with

[shadow moss]

Python may be more popular by some poll but IME, most companies are using C#/Java/Node (Javascript/Typescript)

[oblique furnace]

but isnt it famous for backend (django) and for rest APIs etc?

so companies do use python..? idk

[lilac pine]

Hii

[shadow moss]

most companies use it as glue language or for non software engineers

but normal SWEs are generally in Java/C# (.Net) or Node, not Python. As always, there are exceptions but vast majority are those 3 languages

I'd say Go is becoming #4 quickly

[summer roost]

I think Python is way ahead of Go and Node

[narrow kettle]

I started programming when I was 13, started in game development with Unity and C#. It was pretty fun, I published a game on the play store, but then I wanted something new, so I switched to Web Dev, learned JavaScript, created a website with react, also pretty cool, then I kind of left coding for a while to learn some other skills but then I realized that I want to do coding again so I'm back to the industry, but really confused, I want to start doing something again, but don't know why. I know one thing, I want to enter one industry and stick with it, no switching from one to another, so, what do you recommend?

[summer roost]

There might be some places where Go or Node are used in industry, but they're much less used than Java and Python in my experience

[shadow moss]

for mainline applications? I'm talking normal companies programming their LoB applications

[summer roost]

Me too.

[shadow moss]

I see Python as WAY down there

[summer roost]

Python microservices are common for that in large companies, from what I've seen.

[shadow moss]

I have not seen that at all, even as companies are doing Microservices, they stick with C#/Java/Node

[weary fable]

Thanks for all your help!

[shadow moss]

the lack of forced typing really really hurts Python in large services or collection of MicroServices

[summer roost]

Well, that hasn't been my experience. Using Java or C# for microservices sounds really heavy and painful.

[vapid jay]

What are the weaknesses of Python? Im starting to learn now and wanted to have an idea. Is it better to learn java first? If yes, why?

[shadow moss]

Nope, they have a ton of libraries for MicroServices, a ton of database support and it's really really fast

[summer roost]

Speed of CPU bound operations written in Python is Python's biggest weakness.

[smoky quest]

That's actually a strength of java/c#. The amount of support/tooling/library is amazing

[summer roost]

But Python is a very good first language. Just don't expect it to be the only language you ever learn.

[shadow moss]

Java is great language used by a ton of companies, it has a ton of flaws as well but if your goal is "being employed", Java is great way to go

[vapid jay]

So Python would be organized, but organized does not mean efficient?

My plan is to learn python to the point i can create games and autoimprove, then switch to other language to get employed. If i want to work on gamedeveloping, would you recommend me another language?unity?

[summer roost]

Most real world programs spend must of their time waiting for resources (reading from files, querying databases, calling APIs, etc). Python does that just fine (it can wait just as fast as any other language). It's slow at number crunching, unless you use libraries that are designed for performance (like numpy or pandas)

[smoky quest]

Depends on your timeline, budget/time you are going to dedicate to that ask, if you have a degree or not, etc.

[summer roost]

AFAIK, the most used languages for game dev are C# and C++. But I'd advise you not to get into professional game development at all

Compared to most types of software development, game dev has worse work/life balance, worse compensation, worse hours, worse job security, worse company culture, etc

[vapid jay]

I see

Better to keep it a hobby then. I will use my time to learn java after Python then. Thank you for the support.

[shadow moss]

lack of typing is huge issue at scale

[smoky quest]

There are more to the job than just the language. See also a list of skills on https://roadmap.sh/

[vapid jay]

Wow, im going there.😋

[summer roost]

mypy fills that need well enough.

[shadow moss]

that's addon and it's not reliable vs language feature

[summer roost]

Sure. You can write bad and untested code in Python. If you use proper tooling, you can write scalable and manageable code in Python

Linting and type checking is important at scale, I agree with that. Don't allow developers to opt out of it.

[shadow moss]

but with Python, it's not mandatory vs something like Java where it's mandatory and will quickly blow your foot off if you don't do it

[summer roost]

Sure. Companies have policies and standards, though, and that's a problem that can be managed through policy

[smoky quest]

There is also all the extensive tooling support built around the types. That would take time to develop for an ecosystem as large as python

[summer roost]

That's true enough. We see some of that with pydantic and the like, but less than in many other languages.

[eternal mist]

I want to work in the field of AI and I know it is a relatively new field. I did some reasherch and getting proficient in python is a great way to start. Then learn some machine learning and so on. Is this information correct or is there more to it?

Also is machine learning engineer a career?

[fallen pelican]

Hello everyone,

does anyone here work in web ? Wondering about why would a company choose python (and thus Django or Flask) as programming language for web given that JS and NodeJS are much more powerful in terms of adoption, talent pool and functionality

[thick phoenix]

same question

[fallen pelican]

Yes it is a career.
And don't forget to learn math btw.
Here's something to get you started on ML https://mlcourse.ai/book/index.html
here's some math https://www.coursera.org/specializations/mathematics-machine-learning

[smoky quest]

Talent pool can still be quite different since the engineers would come at them through a different angle.
There is also a benefit to sharing code across an org

Also do not discount the personal preferences of whoever wrote the first line of code.

[fallen pelican]

The last line is gold. If the CTO likes python, then python it is

[smoky quest]

And to be honest, the "power" of javascript over other ecosystems is highly debatable

[thick phoenix]

sometimes i also get confused if i should start doing node, react

[gritty rivet]

It's not either / or. Python is widely used on the backend in combination with JavaScript in the front end. I think Python backends are probably more often used where the data manipulation on the backend is more dynamic and complex. Like data engineers supporting sports betting platforms, I know a few people who work with Django in that context

But those same sites also use JavaScript frameworks

[fallen pelican]

Oh interesting I can't see how the fact that backend using python would benefit the DE

[humble knot]

bros can someone share what and all is hould learn in a month to prep for an interview

[gritty rivet]

How to prepare for an interview really depends on what you know about the company, the job and what's required

[vapid jay]

So companies do not use Python in data science and big data? Is that what you are saying?

If you want to be employed Python is also a great way to go. Not as much as Java right now, but that will change..

[smoky quest]

I am not them, but the context was more probably about backend, not data science.
Note java is also big in the big data

[gilded valley]

where is Java used in big data?

[smoky quest]

hadoop, spark, hbase, cassandra, etc.

[gilded valley]

spark is mostly in Scala at this point, and PySpark even seems more common than Java based on the job postings I've seen. I'm pretty sure Hadoop is also fairly big on the Scala front instead

[vapid jay]

Not as much as Python.

And we know the reasons why

[smoky quest]

I disagree with that statement, but that's the beauty of the Internet

[gilded valley]

haven't come across cassandra in practice though

[smoky quest]

You are a user of it at least through here 🙂
https://blog.discord.com/how-discord-stores-billions-of-messages-7fa6ec7ee4c7?gi=6f3dbeb42cd3

[vapid jay]

Yes anyone can make blanket statements on the internet: real beauty.

[gilded valley]

ah yeah - I remember hearing about Discord using it now that you've reminded me - just curious, is it actually any better connecting to it with Java vs any other language?

[smoky quest]

That would be a lot more dependent on the properties of the client's language and the quality of its driver.
The more popular the client, the more likely to receive more attention and thus be of higher quality

[gilded valley]

of course - but for something like Spark, using Pyspark is rubbish and you really should just go with Scala/Java rather than refusing to learn the new thing, so I was more wondering if you knew whether it was like that or not

[smoky quest]

That would be less important than spark since there is no code to ship around for execution

The complexity for spark is that you have to run queries/execute code supplied by users across a set of machines.
Whereas cassandra is a lot more like mysql/postgres

[vapid jay]

how do i train python

[gritty rivet]

Are you asking how you can learn to use Python? By using it. If you're not sure where to start, see below !resources

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vapid jay]

train

[smoky quest]

You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help to increase your chances for an answer.
This channel is #career-advice and focused on #career-advice

[shadow moss]

People doing the analysis, sure. Same thing with DevOps. Python is commonly used as glue language or non developers to do things. Standard Software Developers writing software don’t use it compared to other languages.

[humble knot]

Yeah but they have only posted that proficiency in 1 language is needed

I chose python

[gritty rivet]

If all you know about the job is that it requires general Python proficiency, I would mainly do two things 1) look up lists of Python interview questions and practicing answering those. 2) Do practice on platform like LeetCode, CodeWars, etc.

And don't just memorize, practice talking out loud too, so you'll be extra comfortable expressing yourself even if you get nervous

[vapid jay]

I heard Facebook and Youtube backend is run by Python. Reddit, Dropbox, Instagram and Spotify also run on Python. Was Python used as a glue for some other language in these cases?

[buoyant seal]

Backend means it is main language for server side architecture, to operate with databases, and any other dynamic content shenanigans, Django framework was used in Instagram

Highly likely frontend, visual part was made in JS framework as usual

[fallen pelican]

Hahahahaha Ape level 😂

For me the best way to start math related subjects (including stats) is on khan academy. It's free, it's khan doing the teaching, so it's beautiful

Then I'd find a good resource online and to be honest I don't have a resource to give you but there are so many !

What I recommend is to go to the MIT CS curriculum and look for what courses they are taking, the search for the specific topics online.

if you want more of a general introduction and easy way into stats there's this youtube channel that explains stuff really well. I used it when I was doing basic ML stuff https://www.youtube.com/c/joshstarmer

[smoky quest]

These companies are so large that they use a mix of different languages. You can even find a lot of php at facebook.
So it's tough to say a specific company is using a specific language.
I can assure you that in the US West coast, except around redmond, you are gonna have to use some java at some point, especially on the backend

[fallen pelican]

Yea let's call it low college levels (if you take the AP courses)

[spark canyon]

nike jordans

[humble knot]

Makes sense thanks 👍

[wise tulip]

Yes I'm a MLE AMA

[eternal mist]

How did you become one and does it require an advanced degree like masters and phd

[wise tulip]

No it doesn't require masters or PhD although both could be beneficial as you progress, as for the 1st question, u simply have to get a deep understanding of whatever type of machine learning product you will build for example someone getting into NLP has to get a solid base on RNNs, LSTMs, GRU etc with all the underlying theory and math too if possible, the next part would be the practical implementation which can be done as you read the theory like using datasets and building appropriate models, layers and fitting them, testing them, now for the engineering part u should learn programming and using your models to finally build the product or atleast which part u are responsible for (ex pipelines or api ...)

Well all in all I can go into more details but I bet u get the idea, MLE is very extensive and huge, so for now i guess as a beginner who wants a job u should start with what u would want (NLP or CV or forecasting...) and pick one and implement it after reading the theory that will be adequate for ur first job and they will probably train u if u are good enough.

[shadow moss]

Do they have some Python running? Sure but from what I understand vast majority of their infrastructure is mix of Java/Go/C++

[summer roost]

I was chatting with someone about this in #python-discussion about a week ago, and they were able to pull some stats for Google. They said that Google's code case by LOC was about 40% Java, 40% C++, and about 10% Python, making Python much more heavily used than Go.

The third most used language at Google by a really wide margin.

[shadow moss]

Google did Go to replace Python. I’d think Go would be much higher

[summer roost]

They were presenting themselves as checking the numbers against some internal system, but 🤷‍♀️, Internet.

I know people who work on Python at Google, though.

[shadow moss]

It maybe. We have Python at last job running, I wrote the API but it’s insignificant.

My original point still stands. For bog standard Developer, few of them mainline Python, if you want to be hired by a company as Developer, your best to pick up Java/C#/Node. If you don't want to be a developer, you might be able to get by with just Python but you bring other skillset to the table.

[summer roost]

To your point, Python is certainly not Google's majority language or anything, but my impression is that it's pretty heavily used. If it's 25% of the LOC of Java, it's probably used about 50% as much, given that Python tends to be more compact than Java.

I agree with you in principle that you should know more than just one language if you want to be a developer, though

[shadow moss]

You can get your start with just one language though if that language isn't Python. Companies are likely willing to hire Java Developer who picks up some Python along the way for parts of glue codebase, the reverse is less likely to be true.

[summer roost]

Companies are relatively unlikely to hire a junior developer without a degree, and a CS degree almost certainly exposes you to several languages

[shadow moss]

IME, that's much less true these days. Degree gives you sizable advantage and if you can get one, go for it.

[summer roost]

At the senior level though, I agree with you. If you only knew one language and you were trying for that job, it would be better if that language were C++ or Java or C# than Java

[sudden quartz]

i had just said this but youre the one who got upvoted i dont understand

[summer roost]

I was just agreeing with you and doing the math on that. And pointing out that conferences might be another reason to travel

Though I do see the point that it's annoying to say "100% remote" when they mean "90% remote or more"

[sudden quartz]

is machine learning simple?

[graceful mason]

not at a level you get paid at

[viscid fractal]

💀
Machine learning in general's an interesting field

A fair amount of the so called work being done into the AI aspect of machine learning's nothing more than "software and algorithms bro"

[quasi glacier]

They use multiple APIs and Technologies for their huge databases, for example Twitter and Facebook uses SQL and NonSQL database together, a single language like python can never build a FAANG company, I repeat NEVER. At the end they use languages as tools to support for their APIs etc. If your goal is to get a job then you can't have it by just learning python (or probably you can), you need other frameworks and maybe need other languages like JS if you want a job as a full stack dev.

[errant jacinth]

so, question

is analysis and systems development a good major? I can choose it over computer science, but I'm not entirely sure if it's worthy persuing it

[smoky quest]

Depends on the curriculum and what it means.
If I am hiring for a software engineer, a CS degree is better understood

[errant jacinth]

How much of an advantage would the CS degree have other the analysis one? Like, it's significant or would other details matter more?

[violet trout]

Really depends on what classes you take. That said, some of the SWE positions at the company I'm at are very math heavy so you could get away without a CS degree if you have a good background in probability/statistics, combinatorics, and linear algebra.
I should clarify that i'm not a SWE, but I do QA analysis at a FAANG company

[errant jacinth]

I see, thanks for the advice

[smoky quest]

The main fact is that it's what most people will expect to see.
So you would have to be able to articulate the benefits of the analysis and systems development

[narrow kettle]

I want to enter a new industry, but don't know what, any tips? I already have some experience in game dev and web dev

[storm raft]

i am: beginner to coding and data analysis; okay with python though i haven't looked at numpy etc yet (analysis not science, no possibility for grad school for "research" data science roles)

my aim (6-12mon): to showcase coding/data analysis skills based on "great" projects for my level, i am not interested in web development as a career, but okay if it is for a specific project; getting a job is not urgent

"becoming a full stack or fully independent data scientist - working with apis and databases in the cloud - and building an interactive dashboard or your own api to showcase the results from your analysis" ```

(paraphrased from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4Af2FcgamA )

```Q2. will be it be better to go deeper via A or wider via B? 
A. like spend time on math for better models and better understanding overall
B. learn some web development and working with cloud to build this dashboard/API ```

[wicked grove]

Go with B.. you can pick up A over time when you are trying to deepen your knowledge. B would allow you to get job quick and start getting exposure

however, it might seem like s steep climb on the learning curve, much like driving, to practive with thigns that you don't fully understand ..

[vapid jay]

Thanks for your information. I was misinformed in my understanding of the language. Sorry.

Learning both Python and Java (in boot camp) at the same time right now. How would I go about being an all rounded software engineer?

Shall I just focus on Java and do Spring? I liked learning about Python and Django though and tend to learn both more.

Do I learn a bunch of languages or do I specialise?

[vapid jay]

Would a good roadmap be to be highly efficient at Python; understand data structure, algorithms and fundamentals of a programming language to a high level. Learn JavaScript and SQL to a high level as well. And then learn Java and C++ after to a good level.

[storm raft]

thank you for replying. what if getting a job is not urgent, but showing overall proficiency is more important? also i have updated my original question, please check

[wicked grove]

Speaking from my experience, I found that knowing the backend tech has a larger returns in terms of opportunities .. One of the biggest challenge I face as data engineer myself, is to ensure that data comes through from various sources and is stored efficiently to be able to run computes against. This actually forms the chunk of the job.. If one is well versed in this area, then they wouldn't spend too much time figuring this out and focus on data sciency specific stuff..

But I'm speaking from my own experience which is about 10+ years on the backend side and 4 years on the data engineering. So, I may be a bit baised.

[storm raft]

One of the biggest challenge I face as data engineer myself, is to ensure that data comes through from various sources and is stored efficiently to be able to run computes against.
this makes sense definitely!

so does that mean to focus more on the backend of webdev and not so much on the front end?

[wicked grove]

well, if u r focussed on the data science, then for frontend, you can get away with basic knowledge. Some amount of javascript will allow you to present the data and charts you want to publish and so on..

[storm raft]

when we talk about front end and data, most people use beautiful soup library, which is javascript, right?

what languages for backend? postgres is good for database, will that be sufficient?

i know i have time but my struggle is that i am beginning from scratch in lots of different areas, so i am afraid of knowing very little in several areas vs knowing something well. but what you said about knowledge of backend being needed to be able to handle a variety of data sources is very valid...

the other thing is front end is what anybody sees - so any suggestions to keep it basic and yet okaylooking while i focus on backend? @wicked grove

[wicked grove]

i think we are talking about different things.. When I said front end, I meant stuff you display using html/css/javascript aka webpages.. there's a lot of stuff to drown one self there.. which is why I suggested to keep it basic.. Beautiful Soup is a library that we use to extract data from webpages.. It gets counted under the backend section...
By backend, I mean not just database, but all the the code that runs on server.. which is mostly python code in this case.. And yes, focussing on different databases (sql, nosql and storage formats such as parquet, etc) would also help in the long run..

There's a lot of ground to cover. You can start with one in each place... such as for databases you pick up sql (mysql or postgres, doesn't matter).. and then move to nosql such as mongodb, cassandra, etc)>
There's file system storage such saving stuff on S3 as csv, parquet, avro.. u can get by starting with csv and having just an idea of what the other two does..
Pandas, numpy, scikit-learn for basic ML and sci-py for stats and so on..
Matplotlib for generating charts and basic html to display those charts.. I think that is good enough to start with..

Again, this is just my opinion..

[storm raft]

we are on the same page, i just mistook what beautiful soup does, havenot used it yet 🙂

the other thing is front end is what anybody sees - so any suggestions to keep it basic and yet okaylooking while i focus on backend? @wicked grove

thanks for the backend suggestions, picking one of a type and then moving on to the next bit is fair

[wicked grove]

you got it

[storm raft]

one more thing, the video i referred to talked working with cloud storage, i am assuming S3 is an example of that? thank you for all your help today!

[wicked grove]

yes, that is correct.. and there are a lot more.. there's just too much stuff to confuse a lot of people.. being able to navigate through it all is also why you get paid a lot.. and you're welcome..

[storm raft]

🙏

[vapid jay]

Looking for Python Dev paying 500$+ dm me

[near ocean]

you cant advertise here, also that better be a day rate lmao

[ivory talon]

This channel is not for recruiting 🙂

[gritty rivet]

Once you reach good proficiency in general Python you could start applying for jobs. That's enough to break in to the industry. I'm not the only person active here to have done so recently.

[vapid jay]

Thank you. Having a couple Django applications in my portfolio would be good enough to break in?

[gritty rivet]

Potentially yes. It's definitely not too early to apply and get to know the interview process, job market, etc.

[shadow moss]

If you had to focus on one language, I’d say Java is better bet.

[hasty pebble]

For info, it look like there are scammers, so be careful.

[quiet wing]

been planning on making games im using python about a year now. any tips? im done with pygame

[gritty rivet]

#game-development

[storm raft]

i have seen you guys help out beginners like me before, could you please answer my question here? thank you so much!

i have already had one opinion, and am looking for both sides of the coin to make a well-informed decision

@gritty rivet @smoky quest @brittle thorn @sudden quartz @vast shoal

[worldly fern]

anybody here able to derive material index

[gritty rivet]

Data science is not my field but I agree with what Arsan said.

[coarse shard]

Hi. I'm looking forward to learning python but do i need a tutor or materials to learn it?

[worldly fern]

not relevant to python. motr engineerin

[coarse shard]

I'm sorry if there are mistakes in this sentence

[gritty rivet]

That really depends on you and how you learn. There are loads of free materials

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[coarse shard]

I'm currently a high school student in Japan and want to work in a programming job

[storm raft]

thank you! what he said does make sense about learning the backend bits 🙂

[coarse shard]

after graduating a university.

[brittle thorn]

Either will work but it depends on your interest and drive to pursue either path. What are your actually enthusiastic about? What is the most important thing to you?

Play around see what you actually want to do then focus on it.

Dont overoptimize early and force yourself into a path that might not be a good long term fit. Explore

[storm raft]

based on my education background (engg, nonCS), and also i am in based in india - web develeopment is not a preference at all, except when i am forced to, as a part of the project; web developers are also a dime a dozen in my country :S

web develpoment in the current case, would amount to how to source data and how to display data

the only good way forward is to combine data analysis with whatever my engg background - don't you agree?

[brittle thorn]

Yes

[storm raft]

fair point!

[brittle thorn]

Thanks think long term and follow your dreams

[azure aspen]

hi

[storm raft]

my only reason for avoiding web development was thati don't ever see myself doing hat as a career; doing math would help me go deeper, doing full stack would sort of force me to learn several new things at the same time (i know zilch about web development at the moment)

[brittle thorn]

Leverage your eng background then do scientific computing projects if you can find it and go deeper into the maths...

I think forcing yourself to do things that you arent passionate about might lead to subpar results and burnout.

[storm raft]

this is what i have planned. to begin with, yes!

however the youtube video (and others) i shared suggested going fullstack to go closer to what actual data engineers might do on a daily basis

[storm raft]

i agree, completely!

[brittle thorn]

Be a scientist not an engineer

[storm raft]

he he! how?

[brittle thorn]

Focus on the maths and theory ... have papers

Then do things small scale that nobody else can

[storm raft]

hmm, i am not in school anymore, i am fairly old, late thirties as well. do you think there is a space for independently published papers?

[brittle thorn]

Let the engineers manage the scaling

[storm raft]

i did see where you mentioned your own transition from Chem major to programming. i sort of have a // background myself, but sadly not in school anymore

[brittle thorn]

Yes, as an IT uni personnel I was a coauthor of a Physics Paper that had my python code

[storm raft]

that sounds awesome, and pretty different from the usual paths students take

[brittle thorn]

Be different think different and dont settle ...Steve Jobs said lol

[storm raft]

lol

[brittle thorn]

If you do as others do you will be commodity

[storm raft]

this is a very fair point!

[storm raft]

thank you for your advice, let me get the basics sorted, and hopefully i can think/do different from others to stand out in a good way 🙂

[brittle thorn]

Good luck and watch the Steve Jobs grad speech on youtube lol

[storm raft]

yes, will do!

[brittle thorn]

https://youtu.be/UF8uR6Z6KLc

[storm raft]

i actually donot agree with his passion hypothesis; however i do agree with his hindsight hypothesis that you can connect the dots only backwards and not forwards, so do things that interest you in the moment and do them well without looking like years into the future because you can never imagine what might come your way 🙂

[gritty rivet]

I will finally start on Thursday. Doesn't look like they have a whole lot planned the first few days, just getting my logins and that kind of onboarding stuff

Which reminds me, @light radish, do you have a start date yet?

[near ocean]

maybe they do their paying on the 24th and so they picked at to pay you a full month and not have to worry about it
i started first of the month, it was a wednesday

depends, pay might just be monthly

[gritty rivet]

I think it was exactly 3 weeks to the day from offer date, not sure if that's the reason.

It's a small startup, definitely a bit chaotic. My scheduled onboard meetings so far are all with high level (CEO, CTO and esp. COO)

[deep cipher]

anyone here does stuff like writing up on a project? Things like these

[gritty rivet]

Not sure what you're asking but this is definitely not the correct channel

[deep cipher]

i thought this stuff was written in actual big projects so i thought anyone working in developing software would be doing these

idk where else to ask

[near ocean]

definitely have not used discord channels as a way to manage a project

[gritty rivet]

People keep telling me the first dev job is the hardest to get... So I'm just glad to have a chance anywhere. If it's a bad mess I won't hesitate to start looking for my next move.

[deep cipher]

im already doing software engineering and i had to write up stuff (idk what it is called)

[deep cipher]

it's actually pretty good way lol

[near ocean]

yea no, use git, use a ticketing system, use a board, literally anything else but discord

[delicate bane]

my exact thoughts when i saw that

[deep cipher]

this is called Software Project Management and Quality Assurance on the school module site

[delicate bane]

you should use jira or even trello

[deep cipher]

im writing word docs tho

[delicate bane]

they both have places where you can insert docs/reports. also this isnt really the channel for chatting about this

[eternal mist]

What position usually makes the most for example data science, software engineering, ml engineering

[deep cipher]

thanks

[gritty rivet]

That's a question for levels.fyi, Glassdoor, etc. But the more important question is which one you personally are more inclined to excel in... I wouldn't make any real decisions based on average salary by title

[light radish]

Very nice, I won't start till March 14th, I asked for some time in between my current job leave and starting with them.

[eternal mist]

I’m most interested in ml

[gritty rivet]

Then I would just focus on learning it as deep as you can. You'll do fine salary wise and it's not that hard to change focus later on if you find you need or want to

[worldly quiver]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, noob here, is there demand for entry level python coders?

[smoky quest]

yes

[cinder narwhal]

Hi all, just need some advise, i have been studying HTML and CSS and in middle of learni g Javascript, i have been offered a 12 weeks junior software Development bootcamp with a potential of apprenticeships of 20 minth contract however, in the bootcamp the programming language taught is Python. So do i drop JS and start the bootcamp or is it possible to learn both?

[graceful mason]

You can learn JS whenever, but will get a lot more value out of a software development bootcamp

[pseudo niche]

Is there any specific web-site or anything you know to apply for Junior Software Development Bootcamp ? as @light radish suggested I am trying to expand my portfolio, doing some projects etc. But I think jr. bootcamp could be very useful.

[gritty rivet]

Check out review sites like Career Karma and Course Report, r/CodingBootcamps on Reddit, and the Discord server Bootcamp Support Network

There are free quasi-bootcamps like 100devs, Freecodecamp, Odin Project. I did a part-time online one that I paid for from Nucamp

[gritty rivet]

Those train to deploy contracts are notoriously bad. They can send you to awful placements and it costs a lot of money to break contract. Self study and/or pay for a proper bootcamp, and then get yourself a normal job where you're free to leave and not endentured

[pseudo niche]

I will check the websites, thanks a lot.

[pastel thunder]

What can be the motive behind asking Intended GPA after asking my current GPA

[vapid jay]

Ollo

[brittle thorn]

A measurement of your ambition...aim high

[muted ocean]

If I want to create a website to store projects as a mini portfolio, does anyone have any suggestions of a good site or any examples?

[near ocean]

I dont think you should try to copy or imitate someone else's style, i would prefer a clean minimalistic single page app with just a list of projects and maybe an about me
You can look at joe's (the owner) site

[pastel thunder]

Actually in my university topper of my discipline has 8.7 gpa( yes, lol its india)...i have a gpa of 8.05....should i really aim high and say 9+?...that would be unrealistic + its not practically viable here at my university

And it make it seem my current 8 is actually very low....but in reality its comparitively good

[brittle thorn]

Ah ok then do the slightly above what you have now or equal to

[pastel thunder]

I can actually mention anything and write text too, in that column

[brittle thorn]

Ah ok then explain why that is your gpa goal

[pastel thunder]

Should i write my rank too? Its not asked though
Ok got it

[brittle thorn]

Hmm not sure i think they could infer it lol

[pastel thunder]

Ok thx

[vapid jay]

Where can I hire python developers?

[near ocean]

A job board like linkedin, indeed, etc (ie. not here)

[gritty rivet]

If you're a current student I would guess they mean what you expect to have at graduation? But it does seem like a stupid question and I've never seen it asked

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384>

[fringe pine]

!mute 943263869764263997

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until <t:1644967690:f> (59 minutes and 59 seconds).

[brittle thorn]

Yes this is true

[jaunty nest]

So i just started to learn python but not really sure what path to go down can anyone suggest some ideas ?

[broken basalt]

How much time should i give everyday to master python?

[shy current]

start with 1 hr every day, then work up from there

[gritty rivet]

The main thing is to follow your interests and explore, while also keeping an eye on job listings and such to understand the major skillsets and what's in demand. There are some jobs where general Python fluency is all that's required but ultimately you need to specialize in something (data science, backend web dev, etc ) and/or learn other languages

[vapid jay]

I've heard you can do up to 4h of deliberate focused practice before the returns start diminishing. But yeah I would start with 1h. It's a nice chunk to get into the flow.

[gritty rivet]

As long as you're doing something every day or very close to it, that's what's most important. Even if you can't do a full hour, daily consistency over weeks and months is key

[thick juniper]

“A small daily task, if it be really daily, will beat the labours of a spasmodic Hercules.”

• Anthony Trollope

[gritty rivet]

@SpasmodicHercules enters the chat

[broken basalt]

thank you so much @gritty rivet @shy current 🙏 u da great

[nova maple]

Suppose this would be the best place to ask.
Background: I'm a new grad - not SWE - Seeking PM /Analyst roles
I have some interviews next week, but not for the roles/companies I was hoping for ...
Has anyone had any experience with Accepting an offer and then having their "dream"/"goal" role/org contacting them for interview process afterwards?
What's the process for dealing with this ? (Maybe someone has past experience)
I might be putting the card ahead of the horse, but I'd like to be prepared to face this dilemma.

[vapid jay]

can anyone support me on my way to creating my first game?

[thick juniper]

You'll probably want #game-development for that.

[graceful sundial]

@vapid jay its a little out there for game dev but cryptozombies.io

[smoky quest]

tl;dr: don't.
Go straight for your intended role.
Assuming you go for it, then what's the plan? Typically that involves burning a bunch of bridges and may take some years to get there

[gilded valley]

I did this as a grad. I'd accepted an offer, got a new one then accepted that, then even after that I was contacted by a company that pays it's grads double and (unsuccessfully) went through the interview process with them. It's not a great look, but backing out of an accepted offer even after signing isn't breaking any laws.

If you're a grad, I really doubt that the cost of burning bridges is particularly real.

[smoky quest]

the cost is pretty real if you encounter them in your career. You would definitely be blacklisted/rejected by the people involved, assuming they remember 😉

[gilded valley]

I don't think that's true. I'm not black listed from the first company, and the only person who remembers my name is the early carers people.

And being black listed by one mega corp really isn't that bad.

I think if you could quantify the cost of pissing off one early carers recruiter or company, it would be pathetically small

And I don't even think it's a given that they would be pissed off

[smoky quest]

The point is not to make it sounds worse than it is or make it sound like it's all fine.
Burning bridge means you have fucked with someone and they will remember it. It's then up to you to understand the potential impact and make a decision based on that. Not everyone will have the same impact, but it can be quite real.

[gilded valley]

I don't think it's a given that you burn bridges. And I think even if it were, you wouldn't be burning important bridges. The value you gain from a more appealing first job vastly out weighs the cost of that.

Your original advice of "tl;dr don't" just seems like bad advice to me.

[smoky quest]

Why wouldn't it be a given? It's highly unprofessional, breach of trust and messes with people/team. That's pretty much a middle finger to the people leaving behind. I have never seen anyone not reacting badly to it.
Besides the lack of reference for future job opportunities, they will also deny you any opportunities you could have been involved with if they hear about it.

[gilded valley]

Because early carers recruiters have much less scope to negotiate and seem to operate over longer timeframes. They understand that someone taking a much better offer or changing their minds about their career direction is a human thing to do - even if it is annoying.

[smoky quest]

I never talked about a recruiter. I am talking about the team you are leaving.

In general, if you sign something, it means you considered it carefully and are signing up for it. You are free to change your mind and it's not illegal, but you should definitely be prepared for the consequences. The lack of maturity of the candidate is something for them to reflect on.

[gilded valley]

This is the context. The main people who will care are more likely the recruiters than the team. It's not difficult to get juniors in for interview. Also depending on the country, there's a good chance this is for something like a rotational grad scheme

[smoky quest]

Yeah, cancelling an interview has no consequences. No-shows and crazies are part of the job.
However the "Accepting an offer" made me understood they did sign the offer letter to join the company

[gilded valley]

Yes, I agree. But the point is that the main person who gets more work is the recruiter rather than the team

[smoky quest]

That's absolutely wrong

[gilded valley]

Maybe. It depends on the specific role/company/team.

[smoky quest]

A recruiter works on multiple reqs at the same time. So a candidate backing out is just no different to them.
However the team has had to potentially reject every other candidates in the pipeline and start from scratch. Doing so could mean another 2-4 months to find another potential candidate.
If the candidate do come on board and leaves within a few weeks, it does set the projects they are involved with back.

So a candidate backing out can very well have an impact of 6 months on the team, just to get to onboarding someone. And that's something concrete I have seen

And if that happens as part of an internship or related, it frequently burns out any goodwill for the people involved with regards to internships

So again, burning out bridges may be fine, but they may also not be fine (and that's not like you would hear about it). And I have been on all sides of that bridge.

And since I am at it, something that newgrads forget is that future jobs might ask you to contact one of your previous manager for reference/background checks. That may be difficult for someone to answer if they don't have enough history and did not leave in good terms.

[vast shoal]

I'm not trying to contradict recursive, I'm just relaying my own anecdotal experience of this happening, but we had a guy sign the offer at my previous employer and then decide to bail for a better offer, and we had a replacement for him within a week or two as I recall. That was a startup, I don't know if that means the processes are faster or if my particular employer was just more flexible than average, but it really didn't seem like a big deal there, and nobody was upset about it, it was just like "oh well, let's move on".

[storm raft]

@ recursive, is it okay if i dm you for one question? my ques is really specific to me, and i would prefer if i can ask you in dm instead of public channel?

[smoky quest]

Yeah, there is everything in between. I also don't mind being contradicted. It makes more interesting discussions. I may also be around more vindictive people :p
Funny thing is a fair share of these experiences were also related to startups where a lot of people would be passed on because of their past behavior.

I am also not trying to deter absolutely someone from burning bridges. Just to weight the potential impact pissing these people may have.

The longer, non tl;dr answer to the original question would be more about:

• Don't settle for less than your actual goal. Settling for less will not fulfill them and it may take longer for them to reach their goal
• If they settle now, it may be more difficult to get to their goal based on what they are doing now (ex: trying to move form qa to dev could have a harder time than going straight to dev)
• If they settle now and are already looking at interviewing, chances are they won't last long there anyway
• They can't have the cake and eat it too. If they have signed the offer but have not started yet, it's easier to back out now with less damages
• So far they only got contacted for an interview. There is no promise and it may very well not pan out.

[smoky quest]

Unless it contains personal information, I would very much keep it here. It also gives you an opportunity to hear different opinions

[vast shoal]

I also don't mind being contradicted.
Yeah, I just meant that I don't have a strong opinion about this, I only have that one anecdotal experience to go on and wanted to share it since it seems relevant.

[gilded valley]

The longer, non tl;dr answer to the original question would be more about:

• Don't settle for less than your actual goal. Settling for less will not fulfill them and it may take longer for them to reach their goal

This seems like very optimistic advice. The job market for juniors is competitive, finding your dream job straight away might just be impossible. Accepting a good offer and still searching for a perfect one before you actually start doesn't seem unreasonable.

And a year working as a software dev is definitely gonna help land the desired job more than a year of unemployment

[smoky quest]

Only siths deal in absolute.
Obviously, if the choice is to not work for an entire year or never attaining it VS having a job, the outlook would be very different

[gilded valley]

(also for reference if you actually read this long discussion <original person>, I graduated last year and have only been working full time for 6mo (in the UK), so even though I disagree with him, recursive error's longer experience probably makes his opinion more valuable to you)

[gilded valley]

You might not know that's the choice. The job market for junior PMs is probably much smaller than that for junior devs which just makes it harder to get a grasp on

[smoky quest]

If the market for their role is smaller, it also means it's more likely for them to encounter again the people they are about to piss off

[summer roost]

I've only had one person renege after accepting an offer that I can recall, but I agree that it burned a bridge

Which is fine - on a personal level, I hope that guy landed his dream job. But on an organizational level, I think we'd be unlikely to extend him an offer in the future

It's a bad look to sign an agreement and then back out

[near ocean]

What does accepting an offer mean here? Did they just sign an offer letter? Did they sign a contract? Offer letters are generally easier to get out of

[smoky quest]

accepting an offer letter typically means signing the work contract.
It's completely cool to back out of anything prior to signing it. Even backing out after verbally accepting but not signing.

[vast shoal]

I meant that they signed the contract.

[near ocean]

Hmm weird, my employer used the "accept an offer" wording for the offer letter only

[dense sinew]

Hey guys can i become senior engineer with just a college degree? Xdd

[smoky quest]

The rule of thumb is that it's not done until it's sign. No different than any other contract (ex: buying a house).
As soon as they sign, all the other candidates will be repurposed or declined

[summer roost]

In the US, at will employment generally means you can accept an offer and just not show up on day one and 🤷‍♀️

You shouldn't, but there are no penalities for you doing so beyond the reputational ones

[smoky quest]

Some companies may make you start as a senior if you have a phd. Otherwise no, you would need proper experience or start your own company and give yourself the title

[summer roost]

The way to become a senior engineer is to become a junior engineer and then gain work experience

[vast shoal]

There's generally a notice period in the contract here, so you could be forced to show up for a certain period of time, but if someone is planning on leaving immediately, there's no benefit to trying to enforce that clause.

[dense sinew]

@summer roost i get assistant programmer from college

[summer roost]

Where's "here"? UK?

[vast shoal]

Sweden

[dense sinew]

Can i get senior?

[vast shoal]

Do you have a Ph.D?

[dense sinew]

@vast shoal no lmao just assistant proggrammer degree

[near ocean]

If youre asking about it youre not there yet, go get experience

[vast shoal]

Then probably not.

[summer roost]

Right. Well, if someone doesn't want to work for you, can't force 'em to. Making them show up to, and get paid at, a job they've already indicated they don't intend to keep would just be a terrible move for the company

[vast shoal]

Indeed.

[dense sinew]

@vast shoal how people become senior then?

[vast shoal]

Work experience

[summer roost]

Gain seniority.

[smoky quest]

You may be interested in:

• https://dresscode.renttherunway.com/blog/ladder There is a link to a career ladder at the end
• https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/overview.html

They describe the typical expectations for senior engineers, among other levels

[dense sinew]

@vast shoal like i can hobby program and does that count or like proffesional work?

[vast shoal]

Not usually.

If your hobby is creating a huge and famous library or app, that might count for something.

[dense sinew]

If i make an open source library ? Yes??

[vast shoal]

A very popular one, yes, maybe.

[summer roost]

Think dateutil or pip

[dense sinew]

Uhh so it gotta be very popular...

[vast shoal]

Yeah, otherwise it might be crap.

[summer roost]

Even then you'd be likely to be brought on as a junior

[dense sinew]

@summer roost hmmmmm

@summer roost Do i need university for senior then?

[vast shoal]

If that's literally your only qualification aside from a minor degree, yeah, you'd probably not be brought on as a senior, it would just be a good credential.

[vast shoal]

Not really, you just need to prove that you'd be good in the role, normally by having many years of professional experience.

[near ocean]

Why cant you start as a junior like the rest of us
Its like asking how to become an old man
You start off as a child and then you age, theres no shortcut

[gilded valley]

What is your aversion to starting at junior/mid level?

[dense sinew]

@near ocean lol senuor is my dream im asking if there is any way i can become 1 faster

[summer roost]

Senior developers are expected to have experience designing, building, and maintaining large systems. It's very hard to get that experience without starting as a junior developer who has designs handed to them, and working up from there

[near ocean]

There isnt any

[summer roost]

I mean, "learn"

But that's not very helpful advice

[dense sinew]

Ok

Im gonna make the next imgui then in OpenGL xddd

[near ocean]

How is senior dev a dream, its just a title and they dont mean much
You could be a senior dev somewhere and do nothing really and you could be other titles elsewhere and be in charge of the world

[gilded valley]

Why is senior your dream? What aspect of it?

[dense sinew]

@near ocean ok

[vast shoal]

That's probably not the fastest route to becoming a senior, the fastest would be getting a good education, then a job as a junior, then work experience.

[summer roost]

Really, "senior dev" just means the company would trust you to run a project.

If you have no professional experience, they're unlikely to trust you with that. If you start as a junior and they see your work for a few years and you crush it, then they will trust you with it.

You become a senior by working on other people's projects and learning enough that you get trusted to run your own

[dense sinew]

Ok

[smoky quest]

Out of curiosity, what's your take on being a senior engineer? What do think it means and why is it your goal comparing to other titles like principal or architect or even senior architect?

[dense sinew]

@smoky quest idk , money i think xddd

[near ocean]

youre not going to have a fun time in the industry if that's all you think of

[dense sinew]

@near ocean no i like programming...

Its only not about the money

[tender thistle]

imgui is awesome !!!

[vast shoal]

How is this related to the topic of this channel?

[tall portal]

He is just cool xD

[vast shoal]

If you just want to make small talk, please use one of the off-topic channels.

[tender thistle]

OK

[tall portal]

Aight aight sorry for intervening 😬 👍

[echo gazelle]

can python be used as a career option of exploit development?

[vast shoal]

It's my understanding that Python is fairly commonly used in cybersecurity jobs, but to what extent I can't say for sure.

[echo gazelle]

hmm

python is used for exploit development tools development firewall ids and ips development and various things too

but can developing a thing become a profession too?

[vast shoal]

I'm sure there are companies that develop tools for cybersecurity professionals, but I don't know how big that market is.

[echo gazelle]

people do it individually too for making their git profile strong

well anything that can be seen can be sold too. Whether its a thing or a service or a block of code too

[honest pivot]

Is there any circumstance in which it makes sense for the org chart of the company to be kept secret from the employees themselves?

[summer roost]

No

[honest pivot]

That's what I thought

[summer roost]

What would it even mean to do so? Tell people they can't ask other people who their manager is?

[vast shoal]

You can know who your manager is but not who their boss is, I guess?

[honest pivot]

It's more like creating a matrix organization structure, telling the individual managers what their role is in a vague sense, but not making a general communication to everyone on what the overall structure is and how the different parts are meant to interact.

[summer roost]

That sounds borderline nonsensical

I understand the words, but not how you could run a company that way

[honest pivot]

It sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Was just making sure I'm not crazy.

[vast shoal]

Sounds like a spy movie

You keep cells of agents unaware of the rest of the organization in case they get captured and tortured

But I dunno what the point would be in a regular company

[torpid saddle]

get out of there, and quick

[smoky quest]

Most of the cases I can think of would evolve around temporary situations, such as an acquisition or a re-org not yet announced, or promotions not yet announced

[honest pivot]

It has a vague sense of promotions not yet announced, but also being kind of unwilling to announce them.

In other cases I have literally learned the job titles of people from LinkedIn rather than from an official introduction.

[smoky quest]

In some extreme well known company with a fruit based logo may go so far as not knowing what their coworkers work on, but they would be able to reach out to each other / know they exist

[honest pivot]

We are a small team who had no secrets from each other until recently.

And a boss who thinks he doesn't like titles.

[summer roost]

When my job duties require me to interact with someone else, I also need to know who to escalate to if that person is not able to accomplish what I need. That's the bare minimum standard required for professional communication within a company

[smoky quest]

From this and our past conversations, I would probably go as far as saying your boss isn't that good or interested in actually bossing

(which may be fine when it's 4 engineers in a garage, but not so much when the company reach some size)

[torpid saddle]

in a small company it could be explained away by incompetence, that the leadership thinks titles don't matter. But if people have proper job descriptions and this is explicitly hidden from colleagues, it's a recipe for disaster

[summer roost]

If people don't have a understanding of who is responsible for what, that's also a recipe for disaster

[torpid saddle]

working in a company usually means working with others, so you have to know who is responsible for what, or where to go for certain questions

[honest pivot]

I've read a bunch of articles recently about matrix organization, they tend to be quite negative, and I feel like we're already experiencing the typical problems on day 1 of reorganization, and it's definitely exacerbated by this lack of transparency.

[vast shoal]

What's a matrix organization?

[summer roost]

it sounds as though your CEO isn't interested in leading, and "matrix organization" is his way of saying "you guys figure it out"

[honest pivot]

He doesn't know whether he's interested in leading or not. He'll say he wants to delegate more, but then sets things up in a way that is going to require his personal involvement in every decision.

[torpid saddle]

usually a structure used in non profit or organizations that have staff which work on projects external to the org or their team. In my case, I have different management for different projects, which is explained as a matrix organization

[vast shoal]

You work on multiple projects in parallel with different managers for each?

[torpid saddle]

yes

usually with a certain amount of time allocated on a monthly basis

[honest pivot]

Yes, you might report to multiple managers at the same time. It's a massive problem if those managers can't communicate well between themselves about priorities.

[torpid saddle]

^ this is why the time allocation must be explicitly determined before doing this

[vast shoal]

Yeah, that sounds iffy.

[honest pivot]

The "matrix" part comes from crossing lines between functional units and projects.

It tends to be the opposite of agile, which is also bothering me.

[torpid saddle]

get out of there is the only thing that comes to mind from your description

if you like being ignorant and being kept in the dark, stay

[vapid jay]

I wanna become computer engineer and also study about accounts

Any suggestions for me ?

[ancient crane]

So you want to learn how to code an account system with login and registration?

[honest pivot]

I am working on it. The situation is complicated by me being an immigrant without permanent residence.

[brittle thorn]

Have whatever he says documented if he continues to flip flop

[brittle thorn]

This is true

[brittle thorn]

It is a bad sign once transparency is lost...maybe there is a breakdown in the level of trust within the team.

[low ridge]

Hi All,
I have a technical review interview . I already completed my technical tasks and submitted them.
This is more of a review or discussion on the tests I did..
How does it go? can someone tell me their experience of how it will be?

[graceful mason]

I've not heard about that kind of interview before.... But I'd maybe have a think about how you solved the tasks, and how you would solve them now that you've had some extra time to think about it

[near ocean]

they'll ask you to explain the code you submitted, maybe ask you why you went with the solution you did over something else

[umbral leaf]

how long does it really take to master python and be able to do self projects??

[ancient crane]

depends on how long you spend learning it each week. It can take all from a few weeks to months.

[obsidian acorn]

It depends on where you are starting from, how much overall coding experience you have, and how much time you are dedicating per day to learn it. From scratch, going all day every day, you can look at potentially a week or 2. that is if you take t seriously, and make it your primary thing, (with a bit of break in between to moll over the concepts).
and it goes up from there.

[vast shoal]

Like others have said, it can vary a lot, but I think you are most likely looking at a couple of months at least, assuming you study reasonably efficiently.

[low ridge]

I am trying to learn python myself.. I went through the basics of python.. only way I started gaining more experience, is by solving different problems... the tutorial/documentation gives you the basic understanding, but how you use them is by doing a lot of assignments, like starting from a small problem and you start building yourself ... if you have a lot of spare time, then use them wisely, I am struggling to find time to work on assignments as I have a family now

[eternal mist]

Would ml engineering require an advanced degree

[true harness]

generally yes

[umbral leaf]

thanks for all the answers to you all :)

[terse flame]

I don't know of this particularly counts as career discussion but how do I start actively enjoying coding in general? I've never really developed that sense of enjoyment that drives me to go personal weird projects and whatnot. That's not to say I dislike coding, I don't mind what I work on and do my best to get the job done and I'm happy with going this direction as a career but when I look at some of my class mates in my course or talk to friends who also code I notice that I lack that extra drive they have like deciding to make a system 32 deleting USB just because they can or making dumb projects because they thought it'd be fun. I think that since I've always been completely focused on completing the goal of the programs I've had to make I never developed this sense of doing this because I can. What would be your best advice in developing that?

[vast shoal]

You gotta find something you feel like you wanna work on for your own sake rather than for someone else's.

the programs I've had to make
Have you only ever worked on stuff you had to make?

[terse flame]

Yeah mostly just college work. I haven't really been making any personal projects which I know isn't the greatest

[near ocean]

Why do you want a career in software dev?

[vast shoal]

I mean, I'm not talking about this in terms of whether it's good for your career development or whatever

[terse flame]

Game development mostly but I'll take whatever employment I can get in software dev

[vast shoal]

I mean, you should try to come up with your own idea for a project. I think if you can think of something interesting or clever that you'd wanna work on just because you want to see the thing you came up with in your head realized and running in the real world, you might feel more invested in seeing it to completion than if you're just following lists of requirements other people came up with.

I definitely feel like I have more of those "holy shit can this work?" moments, where I feel like I wanna stay up late at night just cause I'm close to making the thing in my head real and doing something amazing when I came up with the idea myself

Getting a ticket done at work is satisfying but it doesn't fire me up the same way

[vast shoal]

If you're interested in gamedev, why don't you make a game in your spare time?

[terse flame]

Oh yeah I'm just still working on my programming fundamentals first. College was my first experience working on code at all since I had no access to a computer before that sadly and I'm only in second year yet so I still have work to do on my fundamentals

[vast shoal]

You can work on your fundamentals while still progressing with a passion project.

You don't have to wait until you're "ready" (whatever that even means).

[gritty rivet]

A text-based game only requires basic skills and is a valuable exercise. Could be a D&D style adventure, a card game, whatever

[vast shoal]

Implementing pong with pygame is something you can start with very early.

Second year of college is more than enough to get started.

In fact, working on a project you care about that one might wanna use in real life as opposed to toy exercises can be a great way to improve your understanding and connect the dots regarding how to build real software.

[naive flint]

What would be a good minor to take alongside Computer Science?

[honest pivot]

If you have some idea what direction you'd like to take your career, then something related to that. Otherwise, whatever seems interesting.

[naive flint]

Okay, thanks :)

[worldly quiver]

I have been taking python classes in my free time for the past couple of months so I really don’t know much but when would be a good time to start gearing up a resume to send out, I am doing all this through codeacademy, whether or not I can find a job in this field I enjoy learning it but if I can find a job inside of it that would be great. Tia

[robust cobalt]

hi Guys i need loads of suggestions and a good road -map to start my python journey ...from web tooo game development - tooo security - etc..
right now i have started with basic computations and learning lists,tuple,dictionaries & sets .. as of now.
although so i'm done with it . For sure i'll keep on revising and updating my self from the official docs

So what should be my approach after learning these three basic but effective topics of python ..
Like what should i do next?

[peak halo]

This channel is for discussing Python and work. We have a resources page on our website

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[robust cobalt]

ohh sorry i thought ..its about career talks

[peak halo]

If you ever want to know how you can find a job as a Python developer, you can get suggestions for that in this channel.

[robust cobalt]

ohk sure 👍

[nova maple]

@smoky quest @gilded valley and others, thanks for the advice and input.
Like I mentioned, I am not even deep into the interview process so nothing is certain.
However I will likely try and drag it out as much as I can and see if they can wait as I entertain more offers. (With different phrasing)
I do agree that I am anxious that if I take a position that is not the right "Title" it may be harder to break in later on, as I would no longer be a "new-grad" and qualify for those opportunities.
I'll take it one step at a time, thank you for the insight.

[frigid tide]

Any tips on maintaining code base and sanity ?

[buoyant seal]

unit testing / integration testing / with setup CI CD pipeline of a full cycle is the best sanity saving thing to have

Just coding small fix/feature, and the rest is checked/redeployed for you

[frigid tide]

thank you !

[gritty rivet]

It's not too early to send out resumes. The sooner the better really, although it's ideal to have a portfolio of projects on GitHub to show off. Either way, don't get discouraged if you don't get responses. Just keep applying, networking, advancing your skills and learning as you go. There are some jobs that only require general Python skills without other languages or advanced experience but they're hard to find. If you can land any technical interviews it's great learning experience, even if you bomb them

[pastel junco]

I'm only 15 years old is it too early to learn coding

[near ocean]

No

[pastel junco]

I have started learning and I'm doing quite a stuff, I'm also able to make small but complex programs like coffee machine and hangman game and blackjack game.

I'm also looking for some friends interested in coding dm for it plz

[tired vale]

Perfect time. I started at 14 in 1998. Wasn't as easy then. But now the knowledge is everywhere. You just gotta go for it

[vapid jay]

nom nom nom nom nomn nom nom

[atomic cloak]

Guys any thoughts on quantum computing... Is it worth learning???

[near ocean]

I would suggest first learning something that would make you employable and leaving all this fancy hyped up nonsense for your personal projects

[atomic cloak]

Yea so i will graduate this summer and wanted to learn something on the side

[vapid jay]

im playing gang beasts and this red dude keeps climbing on walls and not fighting

i hate him

[summer roost]

That's got nothing to do with software careers

[vapid jay]

any tips on how i can beat him

?

[eternal mist]

Better to start at your age then college will be easy for if if you are a comp sci major

[summer roost]

!warn 495877132996706334 don't ask for video game strategy advice in the #career-advice channel. See rule 7.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @vapid jay.

[vapid jay]

sorry

[echo rampart]

AHHAAAHH that has to be the most random message i have ever seen

[vapid jay]

no. i started programming when i was around 15, and i’m so glad i did. even if you just keep doing small stuff it’ll all add up and eventually you’ll have done all this stuff and be able to do even more.

tldr 10/10 highly recommended learning to program at any age

[regal tree]

I want to start coding what should i learn first?

[vapid jay]

the opposite of a workout: sit 10 hours a day in front of a computer screen

[toxic peak]

I need something to keep me interested i learn basic stuff about a certain language and dont know where to go from there

the easy stuff seems too easy and the other stuff too complicated, any walkthrough progression suggestions would be appreciated

[vapid jay]

here's a python tutorial, that does not assume any previous programming experience: https://python-1o1-tutorial.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

[toxic peak]

what do i do after i learn that stuff?

[vapid jay]

you can try some algorithms

have a look https://codeforces.com/problemset

[orchid marten]

Hi guys, I was hired as a full time contracter, supposed to do 40 hours a week, working on scraper scripts for a bunch of sites. I found I really only get to 7 hours on a blue moon, and on average, I do ~4 hours. This includes coding, research, pushing, everything. I have a very hard time willing myself to do more. I only report the hours I actually work, so I'm getting paid way less than I should be. What are my options? I've considered quitting and finding a job that doesn't have the same requirements...but that's kind of it. I need to make a living and am unsure how.

[dense mesa]

This is unethical advice, but I would make a dashboard of your scrapers and just watch it while doing other stuff. Then report 40 hours, since you're working by making sure nothing breaks

Use the spare time to learn more about whatever you want, if they're getting 40 hours of value from your scripts, then charge 40 hours

Especially since you're technically working by making sure everything is running smoothly etc

[orchid marten]

Oh, my job is just putting the hours into adding new sites

I need to add new code, but, I can't code for 8 hours straight...

[rugged obsidian]

do u need math for computer science?

[true harness]

yes

[smoky quest]

I am confused. On one hand you said you need to add new code, but on the other hand, you also said you only need to add new sites.
So I would love to understand better how challenging or interesting are you tasks? And how does that contract compares with your previous ones?
You may be simply bored with easy or repetitive tasks.

And along typical advice:

• make sure to get appropriate breaks
• avoid any distractions such as phones, chats, etc.
• sometimes having some music can help staying focused
• lot's of people got trained with the apps/phones/notifications to have short attention span. It may be worth looking at if your problem is just with that project or in general

[summer roost]

Some types of software development require a lot of math, many others only require basic arithmetic and logic. It varies wildly.

[summer roost]

A CS degree will usually include some relatively advanced math courses.

[somber bobcat]

Any data science expert, really need some advices if anyone could help me 🙏

[low field]

I've been learning python for the past year or so.

I've been gradually working on building a portfolio and plan to applying to jobs soon. While I got a bachelor's degree, it wasn't in Computer Science but rather Psychology.

I was wondering exactly what type of jobs I could apply for in coding? I personal would like to do UX/UI design stuff or more front end development, but would personally be happy with anything to get my foot in the door.

I was also wondering if it would be wise to learn other programming languages besides python or if that isn't necessary? I'm digging "C" for example.

[gritty rivet]

If you're interest is on UX or frontend Python isn't too relevant. JavaScript would be much more useful. For UX you don't even necessarily need to code.

But in any case if you have some kind of portfolio, that's great.. I wouldn't worry about learning new languages at this point, just build on what you already know in conjunction with what you learn from the process of applying for jobs

[low field]

I see. What's the best way of going around to find jobs?

[gritty rivet]

Look at listings and apply. Network with people doing what you want to be doing.

[low field]

I see. I just "want to create apps" if that isn't too broad.

[shy current]

Hello everybody! I wanted to ask if anyone has passed or attempted the PCPP certification? There is not much info about it online and I am having trouble practicing when I've already completed all of the practice tests multiple times.

[gritty rivet]

The concensus around there on that seems to be "don't waste your time". It's just not in demand anywhere AFAIK. Better to just build out a portfolio of projects

[strange pumice]

Go for a boocsmp udemy,

Have some experience work on free open source project build experience work as intern. Then you can get a job

[pastel junco]

I want to level up my programing skills, can anyone give some reference work or some problem set?

[summer roost]

So what wound up happening in the end? Did they grant you the exemption, or did you lose the offer?

[summer roost]

!rule 9 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[brisk onyx]

Oh, I see

[summer roost]

that's mostly a moderation concern - we have no way of vetting what jobs might or might not be scams, and we err on the side of caution.

good luck with your search.

[dusk gate]

I sound ridiculous but how can I prepare/learn for CS content as a 13 year old, I sound really dumb ik but I'm 110% I'm going into CS or something closely related like cyber security.

[buoyant seal]

That actually sounds like a pretty smart idea. It would be nice if i would have start learning a bit earlier.

Anyway, I would recommend choosing one language first until u learn it to a pretty advanced level, and doing home pet projects with it in whatever interests you.
If u feel like u chose the wrong language, u can still switch to smth else though. U have plenty of time for that

Try to reach the goal, coding with VSC(git) and good testing coverage

Try coding more complex stuff(usually it means just a big growth of code base)

And highly recommend Head First series books

The most important is to

So code anything that u find interesting personally

For games, for anything

Eventually with practice u will be trying to optimize your work anyway, learning new things to do better

Practice is the best way, because it will give you the most relevant problems

I find personally that with each year my mind is transformed in how I approach programming
U will just be able to move through those transformations earlier

[elfin salmon]

i keep seeing this "projects"

where do people get topics for projects or guidelines

[summer roost]

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[buoyant seal]

I would say it just depends on the chosen area of expertise.
I chose me being purely in web development, with main interests in backend/infrastructure and a really small touch of frontend.

So I choose for myself projects in backend and infrastructure sphere and a bit involving front.

The thing is, the best to choose the projects which are utilizing stuff that we would need for the work?

As example my current pet projects:
(infrastructure) Infrastructure provisioned with Terraform / Ansible
(infrastructure) Baremetal Kubernetes Cluster to where deploy all those projects
(infrastructure) self hosted Gitlab CI in k8s for CI/CD of all pet projects
(infrastructure) Monitoring system out of PLG
(infrastructure) Minecraft server with dozens of electro technical mods
(infrastructure / backend) Made silly app in golang for asynchronous multiple requests to the same resource for performance testing, and tested publishing apps in golang and public docker registry
(backend) Discord bot for a community of the Freelancer space simulator game, to track player bases and forum messages
(backend) Discord bot that parses my minecraft server logs to say in discord channel about entering/leaving players
(backend + small touch of frontend) planning to build backend with a bit of frontend for the Freelancer game community to calculate best player base positions

Pet projects are born out of the need what I need to learn to do my area of expertise, my work better
And anything that I find interesting to have

planning out of fun to try deploying to my homelab few more CI/CD tools. Wishing to be not limited to just Gitlab CI.
Drone CI looks cool, already tried a bit. And eyeing wishfully Argo, it looks like the most recommended modern solution 🤔
It would be nice to learn those stuff in pet projects, so I could use them without initial learning curve at work

Looking at the amount of words "Infrastrcture" in my pet projects, I start to think sometimes who am I, am I Backend or Infrastructure dev? 🤔
Well, it is balanced by projects at work. I deal more with Backend+Front at work.

There is probably one quality that real pet projects have 🤔

Real projects I am ready to maintain

[dusk gate]

Thanks for this I have been trying to do this

Anything interesting or fun sounding I try to do, I love to make practical things like little scripts to make grinding games easier and stuff

I also try to think about how I can use it in real world things

[dusk gate]

Bit of a sub hobby xD

[summer roost]

honestly, you're young, keep learning. You have ~5 years before university, and you might find other things you like in the meantime. Keep building things and experimenting and exploring.

[dusk gate]

Yeah I do a lot of hobbies it's quite overwhelming but it is not too much haha 😆 I still have time for gaming so I'm fine

[buoyant seal]

The dedication sounds good though.
It would be cool to try to prepare earlier

[dusk gate]

I guess I never really thought about how fast I matured compared to most my age

I already sit in calls with my friend talking about coding, I feel like a grown man at times like these

[buoyant seal]

If the person would know in advance what wishes to achieve, perhaps will be able to shine better in extracurricular activities in university and earlier to get internship

[dusk gate]

Yeah I should learn more I don't know much about collage

[summer roost]

learning and experimenting is preparing for adult life. Figuring out what stuff you enjoy, and geeking out on the stuff that you like, is an and of itself preparation for a fulfilling life where you work a job you don't hate.

[buoyant seal]

Point taken

Finding job u love is the most important goal.

[dusk gate]

Yeah I was thinking about ethical hacking cause I enjoy well that

[vapid jay]

mm

[dusk gate]

But I will keeping learning thanks 👍 😌

[summer roost]

totally. and the more areas you explore - whether that's broad areas or specializations within something that interests you - the more likely you are to hit the perfect job for you

[dusk gate]

Yeah, anything tech interests me so I'm sure I won't have any problem finding something later in life

Just wish I could get out of 8th grade already

[buoyant seal]

Looking back at me in 8th grade... I think it was a totally different person.
Different worries, different wishes

[summer roost]

I'm sure someone has told you this already, but enjoy being young while you can. You can't get a do-over, and there's a lot of great experiences that are only available when you're young.

"you're only young once", and all.

[dusk gate]

Haha

[buoyant seal]

Life is short though
And doors of opportunities are more open in young years.
It feels like I should do everything while I am still young, or it could be too late

[summer roost]

life is short, and that's exactly why you should take advantage of being young to do the things you can only do when you're young

[dawn leaf]

oh man i finally accepted a position today

after learning python 3 years ago, could not be happier!

[buoyant seal]

Some goals to accomplish can be more important
And they require a lot of effort to be put
A lot of different requirements to be met
And they can be done too only while young

[summer roost]

the only thing you need to worry about before university is getting into university. Everything on top of that is just side quests, and a lot of them are side quests you can only do when you're a kid.

[buoyant seal]

giggles, side quests.

Life is MMORPG with the most realistic graphics and physics

[buoyant seal]

I guess... Indeed. You are right.
All my work today would be pointless for me .. if it was not for certain events in my childhood that established my motivations/obsessions/interests which became a core of my today personality

I was not ready until I acquired them

Emotional development

[dusk gate]

You guys talking about life choices me making a song on my acoustic guitar at 12:29PM

[summer roost]

we're straying from the topic of careers a bit, but emotional and social development and communication skills are hugely important in adult life. Kids get a pass when they get frustrated and lash out. Adults don't.

[dusk gate]

To be fair it sounds very nice, it's a soft melody

[summer roost]

and those are skills that you build by just doing kid stuff. Making friends, figuring out how to keep them, figuring out how to apologize when you're wrong, or express yourself constructively when you're feeling hurt or angry, etc.

[dusk gate]

Getting a girlfriend 😉

[summer roost]

that too!

It's definitely not a bad thing to keep an eye towards the future, and to consider possible career directions even when you're a kid. Just don't get so lost in doing that that you miss out on doing all the kid stuff

[dusk gate]

Trying to not wake anyone so sounds terrible because so quiet

[young hornet]

Hey good morning all! Newbie here. How important is Python for career in Security Management? I’m enjoying my college class in Programming with Python…. Just curious

[dusk gate]

I had it put phone in guitar

[summer roost]

please stick to the topic - the video isn't really appropriate for this channel

[dusk gate]

I am really off topic xD

[summer roost]

yeah 🙂

[dusk gate]

I just got the midnight inspiration sorry 😐

[buoyant seal]

Some choices would be have to made soon anyway. 8 th grade gets closer to choose university and speciality. Soon the time to prepare

[dusk gate]

Highschool has no good classes