career-advice

[summer roost]

yeah. I'm pretty sure I understand what you're asking/driving at, and it's a reasonable question - I just have no relevant expertise that I can use for advising you.

I would say that, unless you think the hiring manager will have seen enough Python certificates to be able to tell good ones from bad ones, it probably doesn't make much difference which one you get - at least, not if your entire goal with the cert is to signal your problem solving skills

[gritty rivet]

I think the best solution is check job listings and LinkedIn profiles in your field. If any relevant certifications are valued it will be obvious. Any certificate worth having will be visible in those spaces

[summer roost]

that's a good point - emulating the certs that other successful people have is a good call.

[cloud swan]

Outside of tech, I want to underline the fact that "I know coding" itself turns heads 🙂

I did an internship in a non-tech company in the past. And I was practicing python by myself in my free time during the office hours, since they gave me nothing else to do. Senior/manager level people were like "oh you know coding :), good good". 😄

I am aware how I might sound like right now, but just wanted to share this story. Outside of tech, basic coding is like rocket science (for majority), specially for manager/partner level people.

Anyways, it was a fun discussion. I'll probably search a bit more on Coursera, do an Excel, a python, and a data analytics lecture.

I'll come up with better career questions :), I'll try to rotate to high frequency trading/quantitative finance in the future.

[summer roost]

quantitative finance in particular requires some pretty high level math. I know a lot of physicists wind up transitioning into quant jobs when they leave academia, because the math required for quantum physics and for quantitative finance are similar.

[hot finch]

Heyo - general question here… is there a place where people can request Python packages that need to be developed? For new apis, etc. Similarly, I’m wondering if there’s a place where Python devs can pickup freelance work.

[gritty rivet]

There is certainly demand for Python skills on platforms like UpWork

[vapid jay]

What would be the difference between a bachelor's in computer science and a bachelor's in computer engineering, would computer science still be considered in the engineering field?

Would companies and employers prefer one over another?

[modest fractal]

@vapid jay In my experience, C/E went deeper into hardware, we build processors and worked with ASIC's and designed logic into FPGA's.

CS tended to be more focused on the software stack.

I think the line is fairly blury; and a difference of a handful of classes.

Comp Sci -> Comp Engineering -> Electrical Engineering seemed to focus more on hardware to the right.

[vapid jay]

Would I be able to get jobs as a software engineer with a computer engineer degree?

[gilded valley]

the course content might mean you have to do more self-learning with the computer engineering degree, but I doubt most employers care about one degree title vs the other.

[vapid jay]

According to my dad, the word "engineer" in a degree plays a major role in pay. I've told him that a C.E. degree mainly focuses on the hardware components, while a C.S. focuses on software.

[summer roost]

some universities offer a "software engineering" degree, which focuses on software

but, unless your dad is in the software field, I'd take his advice with a grain of salt. Someone with a CE degree might become a professional software developer, but that's not what that degree is geared towards, and it would require you to learn a lot of stuff outside the bounds of what the degree teaches you.

whereas someone with a CS degree is virtually guaranteed a job as a professional software developer.

[vapid jay]

He is nowhere near the software field, he has a M.S. in chemistry, so not close haha

[summer roost]

what country are you in?

[vapid jay]

Unfortunately there aren't any universities that offer a software engineer degree near me, there is one that I know of but it's about 7 hours away.

[vapid jay]

I reside in California, U.S.

[summer roost]

k. Yeah, in the US, having "engineer" in your degree will make very little difference to your pay. The degree is really only relevant at all for your first ~5 years after college, and after that people will only care about previous job experience, at which point your job title matters more.

starting salary for software developers in the US is higher than for most types of engineering, as well.

[hearty island]

yo guy serious question is it ok to put a 3.4 gpa on my resume? i read something about not putting it if it's below a 3.5

[summer roost]

as another thought, there are universities where the Computer Science program is part of their College of Engineering - showing that to your dad might sway him a bit 🙂

[summer roost]

yes

[hearty island]

i see, ty

[summer roost]

the usual rule of thumb is to not list a GPA if it's lower than ~3.2

[hearty island]

also, am i allowed to ask for laTEX help here? i just started using it for my resume and i'm a lil bit confused

[summer roost]

you can ask in an off-topic channel

[hearty island]

i see, ty. i think it's a better idea to use a latex server if one exists

[summer roost]

that's not Python related or career related, so it's off topic here.

[hearty island]

tysm for the help 🙂

[gritty rivet]

There's a LaTeX StackExchange if that helps

[hearty island]

interesting, i'll check it out

[devout thorn]

can anyone help me on python tkinter #help-donut

[cloud swan]

@kind oar thank you! great resources, great advices.
I certainly need to improve my communication skills. You are right, its weight is way more than hard skills. Thank you for pointing that out.

[hearty island]

sql is fun

[full shuttle]

Why is it hard getting an entry level python-django developer role ? 😩

[vast shoal]

I doubt it's harder than getting an entry level position for any web dev job.

[full shuttle]

Sighs
Why's that hard at all though

[vast shoal]

Maybe your resume is lacking

[full shuttle]

Can I send to you so you check for me please 😫

[vast shoal]

Sorry, I don't really have the time. But if you blot out personal details, you could link it here and someone else could perhaps give you feedback.

[full shuttle]

Alright thanks

[full shuttle]

Someone please check my resume out and point out errors

Thanks
In anticipation

[near ocean]

is it customary where youre from to have >1 page CVs?

[full shuttle]

No
Not really

Is it too long?

[near ocean]

well, theres one point you can work on, the sections with experience look too long to me

[full shuttle]

Ok thanks

[near ocean]

also too much space between the black bars and the text

[full shuttle]

Okay
I appreciate that

[near ocean]

as for projects, what i did was just have the title of the project (repository name) and their description from github, took 2 lines each to list them

[full shuttle]

Okay
I guess I provided too much information there?

It should be shorter?

[near ocean]

its not that its long, its that it takes too much vertical space, they could be a single sentence or paragraph instead of bullet points with so much margin in them

[full shuttle]

Ok noted

[true harness]

you should run it through a grammar/spellchecker like grammarly

[full shuttle]

Noted

[true harness]

check the capitalization for certain things. why are sqlite and postgres all caps?

[full shuttle]

I'll correct that

[gritty rivet]

I wonder if the jobs you are applying to are a good fit with respect to your projects? The two projects are both APIs with similar technologies which is fine if you're finding positions where that's the focus but if you're not getting interviews, I might consider thinking about a different project that might fill any gaps in what companies are looking for

Also it's always worth emphasizing that networking is key. Your odds of finding a job are often best when you're finding leads through people you know

[full shuttle]

Thanks i appreciate your advice

Can you recommend a checklist for skillet of an entry level python-django developer

[thick phoenix]

right now i am so confused what should i must do to get a job in python or should i switch to nodejs, reactjs bcs many companies demanding for this

[smoky quest]

there are tons of jobs in either.
It will depend on what you prefer, your local market, etc.

[fickle flax]

@thick phoenix jsut be careful, I was in this path before- learning so many technologies to land a job. I havent landed my first job yet after learning all these technologies and machine learning I would say, focus on learning one programming language, one framework maybe flask since you python and then once build project (more than just a todo list , make it unique wiht full stack involved and api), then just apply to jobs, they might say React experience required or prefered but realistically no one can know all technologies , you learn on the job and can let them know your willing to learn but react is popular frontend while flask is backend so you learn react if interested espeically for front-end positions but just be careful not to learn so many technologies, just learn one language, one framework , build project, and apply to jobs. On top of that, make sure to learn like github how to make branches and good coding practice and software principles.

it helps to also focus which field exacty you would like to work , if it front end you can expect on job to style using sass or css, or others , html of course, javascript and working with api and applying software design principles and github branches merge conflicts, and possible applying ui/ux principles given mockup and front-end framework like react or others and maybe implementing libraries to improve code speed and writing possible test and interacting with api.... Interviews sometimes data structure or practical (build website or app based on mockup given or requirements)

not all front end jobs are like this but at least in my area most job responsiblities say this^

once you apply to a job and get a interview then you can learn about the technology they use from job description or on GlassDoors website and mention you are willling to learn...

[thick phoenix]

thanks... i really appreciate your answer

so i think i should stick with python and build some good project on it

sometimes other technologies attract me with their unique concept and company requirements which demotivates me that I'm doing something wrong

[fickle flax]

yeah , i felt that way too at first. But really, all need is to focus one one thing or one tech , and get comfortable with it then build one project, or as many would like jsut to fill resume , could also try volunteer work or open source but yeah just focus small then continue to apply to jobs and work on resume and receive feedback on how to improve it.

Like for example I first learning html css and js for front end but then jobs asked for React, Node js express.js, sql, mongoose so i learned all this MERN stack, then jobs ask for django and flask so i learned all this too and more programming languages and jobs asked for ML so i learned data science and worked on open source projects since others say that helps and thougth that would help.. you can see i was getting stuck learning so many techs, someone told me who experience Software engineer to only focus on one thing front-end or backend and apply to jobs and improve resume since companies have filters so really need to pass those filters to get an interview and show there.

[gritty rivet]

I would work off the job listings in your area to understand what's in demand.

Also check out this and the backend roadmap it links to. You don't necessarily need to know everything on there but it may help give some ideas https://roadmap.sh/python

[opal anvil]

what else should i learn for image detection besides opencv

[thick phoenix]

thanks for the guidance.. really appreciate. i was asking from so many people but no one explain so well

[vapid jay]

I want to get into a college field other than something that isnt relying on freelance as much (fine arts being my current), and i want it to be something that will help me with getting into computer engineering or mostly robotics for a career. Only issue is I'm not fully aware of how college works and I'm also not the sharpest on math or science. So, I wanna start early, starting with a field to stick to and study, but again, I don't know what easier fields can help you get a position in computer engineering or robotics.

[smoky quest]

CS or electric/electronic degrees are the typical route

[granite oak]

is economics a good to have if i want to go for data science jobs?

[smoky quest]

it depends
The math/stats could be reused. And if the job is related to economics then yeah.

But in the grand scheme of things, it's all about how your skills relate to the job

[granite oak]

hmmm
i am really int data science stuff and would like to keep it as a future career option
but to become a software designer, what skill would be good to have besides CSE knowledge i.e. what would be more attractive to employers

[smoky quest]

designer as in UI/UX?

[granite oak]

no

software arhitecture i beleive is what it's called

but i could be wrong

[smoky quest]

It gets a lot more nuanced when you get into architecture

but the main thing to get started would be general patterns or architectures

[summer roost]

And distributed systems design patterns. Message queues, pub sub, and so on

[smoky quest]

indeed. https://www.manning.com/books/microservices-patterns goes over a lot of things

[vapid jay]

I'm a new programmer who is learning python and getting the hang of it, my question is, What jobs can I get with python, and what would be the day-to-day roles that I would be carrying out?

[smoky quest]

Python is used a lot as a scripting/automation, backend, application and data science / ml jobs

[thick lava]

Hi everyone! I was extremely lucky to get an interview for data science intern role at a ride sharing company. The recruiter only told me it will be about "algorithm and data manipulation". What should I do to prepare for it besides leetcode? Thanks!

[smoky quest]

leetcode and practice around sql and general data manipulation/transformation?

[thick lava]

they told me I can using python or R, but not sql. I think I am going to use R for the data manipulation part. But a bit rusty on python

[smoky quest]

that narrows it down indeed

[granite oak]

i was asking what side sills i need besides computer science to land a software job

i should really work on how i talk to people

[smoky quest]

communication is such skill :p

[granite oak]

yea

but that is a skill you develop with experience and age

[smoky quest]

Other books:

• https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1736417916/
• https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1492043451/
• https://www.amazon.com/Managers-Path-Leaders-Navigating-Growth/dp/1491973897

[granite oak]

what acedemic skills can i gain?

[smoky quest]

academic? math

[granite oak]

is it necessary for one to have a physics, chem and bio for such things??

[granite oak]

i am, thanks to god, very good at maths

[smoky quest]

SW architecture has nothing to do with physics, chem nor bio. So no

[granite oak]

how about coding?

or computer engeineering?

[smoky quest]

not as much as other skills

coding will be assumed to be a mastered skill at this point.

[granite oak]

like?

[granite oak]

ofc

[smoky quest]

the mindset is different.
As an engineer, you worry about how to implement your feature.
As an architect, you are more worrying about how all the pieces fit together and how things work across multiple teams

[granite oak]

what other skills? even if i am a fast learner, i would need time to learn

hmmm i see

[smoky quest]

read the books I linked.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0134032802/ is also another interesting book

[granite oak]

just a side note, i cannot buy books off of amazon in this country. do you have links to other sites and/or pirate sites where i can find pdfs?

i will look for them on my own ofc

[smoky quest]

As a free software enthusiast, I am against pirating books or any content.
That would also go against any ToS

It also hurt the authors of these books. You should use whatever platform your country has access to.
I am pretty sure any country would have an equivalent legal platform

[granite oak]

yea, it's just i am from a third-world country so not a large amounts of books are available. it took 2 years for my last year's textbook to come here. i am buying it for my brother this year

ofc it's a 6 year old book with a new 2021 edition

sucks to be here huh
anyway, i'll go for now and try finding these books

[smoky quest]

No idea which country you are in, but you may want to look at the ACM and safari.
Being a member of the ACM would give you access to oreilly safari. The ACM has discounts for third world countries and can give you access to oreilly safari which itself gives you access to thousands of books legally

[granite oak]

K will check it out

[hearty island]

economics is pretty cool, but how you apply your skills to economics is what gets you going and communication skills can really distinguish you from the competition. it's recommended that you have an industry you can apply your skills to. for ex: i have friends who can code and are using it for the finance industry specifically. i know some brilliant students from my college who don't have job offers out of college due to their communication skills not being up to standard

[lyric iron]

Guys, I will be attending an interview for Systems Engineer in a couple of days. Can anyone help me on what kind of qns I can expect? Please??

[gritty rivet]

Look through the job listing and anything else they told you about what they are looking for. For each major technology or topic, you can search for lists of interview questions online and practice with those

Especially if it's a big company, you can probably find details on Glassdoor or other sites specific to them

For a technical interview, do relevant practice problems. I mainly use LeetCode but there are plenty of other sites like that

[hoary apex]

Heyy

[granite grail]

If I want to be a Software Engineer, what do I take

[gritty rivet]

Are you asking what to major in at university? Computer Science is the normal choice

[unkempt mason]

What is best to learn for cyber security

[gritty rivet]

It's a hard field to break in to without having other IT experience first. A lot of people start with interactive sites like HackTheBox. You might also consider studying for certifications. The CompTIA Security+ is a relatively easy entry-level one.

[lyric iron]

@dowcet#6236 Thanks for the advice

[vapid jay]

@unkempt mason there no real way of learning the best way tbh, It just such a big and broad world. U just gotta go to head in and go from there

[modest fractal]

Cyber security is a broad term. It can be compliance based. Do we have firewall rules and encryption for protected info. Backups. Etc.

It can be tooling based - do we have static analysis tools scanning out code and vuln scanners.

It can be pen testing where a company contracts to have their systems tested.

It can be regulatory.

Some larger orgs have internal blue/red teams that attempt to hack and defend internally.

[unique patrol]

guys I am a collage student and I have tried multiple ways to start freelancing, however, nothing yet, therefore any suggestions? or maybe or a roadmap I would appreciate it.

well for your first question, to be honest i did not realise that, i just realised now

well I think i did but of course is not the best of the best i provided links for my project and I stated the experience that i have and all of that

From Yemen

Upwork, freelancer, fiver

for around 3 years

ok man I really appreciated that, all the best to you

[gritty rivet]

We get this question a lot , this is by far the best answer I've seen.

[vapid jay]

what gave you guys the motivation to learn coding?

[pseudo frigate]

I just started learning python a day ago im 17 and going into college next year for a most likely business major, do you think I should contintue to learn python on the side and are there good job oppurtunities that come with it if I'm not fully invested in it

[vapid jay]

oh thats a good one 😤

but seeing the complex things everyone is talking about here, makes me second guess my decision to learn to code

with all honesty, i don't think i've got any interest in anything else

[vapid jay]

I wanted to automate the boring parts of my job, so I did. Then I got more interested in the technology than the industry I was in and became a full time software engineer.

man thats awesome

im working towards that!!

[pseudo frigate]

I live in silicon valley and a lot of my friends in college are making over 100K a year coding and programming so like I'd prefer that if business pays less that's why I looked into it

Because where I'm at they pay really well for jobs like that so I'd wanna know how long it would take to pursue learning it

[vapid jay]

"business" is broad. What do you want to do with business? consulting, accounting, manage money?

gotcha, i'll give python a but more time, and see how things turn out, thanks!

[pseudo frigate]

marketing, real estate, or accounting are the top three, with marketing probably first

yeah six figures are my only goal, like I'm trying to land a job that will pay that much during my time in college so I can live in my apartment and not rely on anybody but myself

I'm just trying to figure out what language I should learn and what path to take in order to do that if I have about a year before college starts unless I don't have enough time

[vapid jay]

Adding code to your career is a multiplier. You don't have to be a software engineer, but can use code in whatever field you like.

17 here

[gritty rivet]

Not starting for almost two weeks, thanks for asking though :)

[summer roost]

If you're interested in coding, why do you want to major in business instead of computer science or software engineering? You're only somewhat interested in coding, but more interested in marketing, real estate, or accounting?

[pseudo frigate]

Yeah i’m more interested in business than coding but i want that park to be available unless business is something i lose interest in, that’s why i’m wondering if there are coding jobs like that i can apply for in the span of learning it (1-2 years) so i can make money from my computer in college

while still pursuing business

[dapper patio]

I mean you can definitely go into data science

plenty of jobs working for financial institutions

[untold valve]

has anyone gotten a chemistry degree and used python with it?

I got my bachelors in chem and want to use python equally, I found cheminformatics which I thought was interesting

[summer roost]

if you're looking for coding jobs that are open to someone who only has 1-2 years of experience and no college degree, they're mostly going to be low paid freelancing jobs or things like that, nothing that pays $100k. Maybe more like $15/hour, maybe $20/hour.

[pseudo frigate]

yeah data science/analysis was my second major choice i’ve been looking into that aswell

ik python is data so it could go hand in hand

[summer roost]

if you're more interested in business, a little bit of programming knowledge can go a long way in a lot of typical office jobs, by helping you to automate repetitive tasks or things like that, but that's not likely to make a big difference to your compensation. It'll make you better at your job, able to do the same amount of work for less effort than others, but it won't necessarily make you more attractive to employers who are hiring accountants, for instance, because they won't realize that your little bit of coding knowledge is useful.

[vapid jay]

@summer roost false

@summer roost im getting $45 hr

[summer roost]

interesting. Doing what?

[dense mesa]

@brittle thorn

[untold valve]

@brittle thorn I'd love to pick your brain about what you do and your path, feel free to message me!

[summer roost]

I know someone who's into cheminformatics and likes her job, but I can't provide very much information on what her job actually is, heh.

[untold valve]

damn lol, do you know who they work for?

[summer roost]

nope 😅

[vapid jay]

@summer roost data science i learned from codecademy

[summer roost]

freelance jobs?

[vapid jay]

It took me 3 months to finish, applied to jobs got one in AZ working 40+ hours a job. @summer roost no freelance im under a startup company

[summer roost]

ah, well then the pay makes more sense. That's a reasonable pay for a full time job.

So you hae no college degree, and no previous coding experience before the DS course you took?

[vapid jay]

@summer roost ^^ correct, i had little exp in middle school but other then that im pretty new, basically a green hat

[summer roost]

wow. Nice job! 🙂

I think that's still very much the exception and not the rule, but it sounds like you landed something pretty great.

[vapid jay]

@summer roost ^^ im blessed ngl, im addicted to coding. I cant get enough of it. i wanna go to school to learn cyber security and hack some shit

[summer roost]

Is the job remote or local? And are you in a high cost of living market or a low cost of living market?

to what?

[vapid jay]

@summer roost its mid cost living cost, its remote work atm.

[summer roost]

"atm", meaning once the pandemic settles down they'll expect people to go into the office?

[dapper patio]

Really annoying that they can't just allow most positions to be remote when plenty don't require an office, it simply wastes time and money

[summer roost]

having people in the office has some major advantages for team building and training and onboarding. And some major disadvantages in terms of commuting time and work/life balance and heads down focus time. I don't think either 100% remote or 100% in office is the best option.

[vapid jay]

@summer roost We all like working at home the owner is cool with it too, he gets to save money.

[dapper patio]

Yeah it's just preferable to work at home cause you save on gas, time, morale, and anger from driving in traffic

[summer roost]

yep, those are definitely pros, but there are definite cons as well.

[limber cove]

time to ask here for every little problem i have

[gilded valley]

anyone who is currently employed as, or has been employed as, a data scientist (or adjacent role) - do you know of any certs which hold any weight at all in the industry?

[dapper patio]

You could watch some Joma Tech aswell

he was a data scientist at facebook and a few other big companies, he probably has a video discussing such

[polar nest]

Yo .... I just start to learn python ... Any advices ??

[dapper patio]

In general watch the CS50 lecture or participate in the class, it's free unless you want to get the cert.

[polar nest]

free cert ??

[dapper patio]

no you can do all the course material for free without the cert but to get it you have to pay and you can do so after the fact

[polar nest]

OH thanks

one more Question

Do you need a degree To find a data analyst python job .... or just certs ?

[summer roost]

it's not necessarily necessary, but a degree in computer science or mathematics would be very helpful.

[dapper patio]

I mean it would make it easier

[gritty rivet]

It's all about doing projects. Don't just watch a bunch of video, build stuff ASAP. A text-based game (a card game, a dungeon adventure, trivia) is usually a good first project for practicing basic Python

[polar nest]

Hmmm I don't have any degree of that kind

[dapper patio]

Have you already gone to college?

[gritty rivet]

If that's your focus, DataCamp and DataQuest are both really helpful

And SQL is probably more important than Python. Basic SQL is actually very easy to learn

[polar nest]

I just start to study geolgy in university ... I read that python and R are the perfect language that are used in geology soo I decide to learn it 🚒

[dapper patio]

geology and coding? never made that connection

makes sense

[gritty rivet]

All sciences are data science ;)

[polar nest]

it used in analysing geological Data

and in GIS

[gilded valley]

the thing about geology and data science is that in geology there's a ton of data you're dealing with that's actually big data - not just a few gigabytes that gets labelled as big data to make the company look cool
and experience dealing with that data is very valuable, just because it sets you apart from the people who do the more common Big Data™️ stuff

[dapper patio]

no no it makes sense just never thought about it before all those weather apps and terrain maps all sorts of crazy data

[polar nest]

YES that what I want

the probleme is I am beginner in that ... programming and else I don't know where to start

[dapper patio]

I am in the same boat as you just starting programming

you can try things like leet code, free courses, cs50, buying a book, plently of ways

[polar nest]

Yes ... I will try

[dapper patio]

W3shools is another resource I have been using and it covers plenty of stuff about pretty much every language

[polar nest]

ohh tanks

*h

I hope that can work for me ?

[nocturne sentinel]

Code with mosh on youtube is a great start and then from there you can find some great interactive courses with zenva or stacksocial

[dapper patio]

It's just a resource that has a bunch of examples and explanations of the basic concepts like if, else, and so on

[sterile brook]

cc

[polar nest]

thank uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[gritty rivet]

There are some cool sites like this one: https://www.earthdatascience.org/

[polar nest]

you found what I was looking for...... thhhank youu

[worn marten]

I'm applying for a job and it asks, "Have you ever been bonded?" Does anyone know what that means? Google seems to return mixed results on whether it means I've been insured if I work with money or whether it refers to criminal history of some sort

[summer roost]

And what type of job.

[summer roost]

Also, if you've never been professionally insured, and you've never been released from jail on bond, then the answer is the same regardless of which they mean.

I'm inclined to guess they mean the "insured" meaning, because it would be very weird to ask if someone had been released on bond while awaiting trial, rather than whether they had ever been accused of a crime, or (more likely) convicted of a crime

[worn marten]

The job is in pennsylvania

[worn marten]

Yeah I've never been held on bond and as far as I'm aware I've never been professionally insured? I assume that's the kind of thing I would know? I did work as a cashier for 5 years and I assume the company had some sort of insurance tho

I would hope it's not legal for employers to ask if anyone's been sent to jail regardless of conviction.... but who knows....

[summer roost]

You'd know - https://www.bankrate.com/financing/insurance/what-it-means-to-be-bonded-licensed-insured/

I've only ever heard of this for small businesses like electricians or plumbers or the like, as a way of insuring the customer against damage caused by the company

[worn marten]

That makes sense. I hadn't been sure if it meant any kind of money-related insurance but that makes more sense, thanks for the assistance :)

[summer roost]

That might differ depending on the country, but that's my understanding of the term from the US, at least.

Well, if neither applies, the answer is "no" regardless of what they mean

But I agree that what they mean might differ depending on the location

I wouldn't ask. If you ask "do you mean X or Y", it will imply to them that the answer to one of those questions is "yes", which might well be a red flag for them

If you've never been bonded and insured, but have been arrested and released from jail on bond, I wouldn't ask for clarification, because it might imply something unflattering that they weren't even asking about

Hm. Perhaps, but I still think that's risky.

Making jokes with people you don't know can be really risky

[summer roost]

Could be that person's brother is in prison and it's a sensitive subject, or something

[worn marten]

but what if I am wanted by interpol lol

[summer roost]

I don't know that it's US specific. A lot of people think that the only people who have been arrested are "bad people". That's biased and stupid, but you as a candidate shouldn't be putting yourself in the way of their biases unnecessarily.

[worn marten]

oh thank you so much! lol

I'm sure that'd be fine? I'm not married so it's not that bad, I just go after other people's wives

Specifications depend on whether I get the job...

Yeah I'm definitely going to stay away from any dark humor. also despite this convo, I can't say that boomer humor is for me either lol

[summer roost]

Oh hey, me too. 👋

In that case, I'd definitely assume they mean the "bonded and insured" meaning.

[worn marten]

Oh nice! The job is near pittsburgh and I've actually never been so while I really want the job, I'd be a bit nervous if I actually got it lol

[summer roost]

In the US, we say "released on bail", rather than "bonded out"

The latter phrase is UK English, in my experience

[summer roost]

I'm all the way on the other side of the state. Philadelphia.

[dense mesa]

Yeah in the UK you'd say like "3up my guy, should be bonded"

[summer roost]

I have no idea what that means, even though I know the "bonded" part 😂

[dense mesa]

There's this really dumb thing people who think they're road say, which is "3up", meaning "free up" or "let that person out of prison even though they're guilty"

[worn marten]

I don't know why they'd ask, I think the application is just generic maybe. It has a watermark from a company called ComplyRight and clearly isn't target to the job at all

[summer roost]

Heh, grey with 4 inches of snow on the ground right now

[worn marten]

I'm in VA right now and it was 10 degrees F one morning and that was the coldest I've ever dealt with

I had lab that morning and it was outside. Definitely wore like 3 layers lol

[summer roost]

-4C here right now, going down to -11C overnight.

[worn marten]

Oh yeah right lol, thanks for all your help! also that is way too cold

[summer roost]

Pittsburgh does get a bunch of "lake effect snow"

Cold air coming down from Canada, picking up moisture over the great lakes, and dumping snow once it hits land

[true harness]

imagine being further north

[worn marten]

Let's hope if I got the job, I'd be able to buy a new car before winter hits.... my car is 20 years old, if it snowed that much I'd be trapped for a month

[summer roost]

Snow in Seattle is relatively rare. Usually. This year they got a bunch, but that's unusual (or climate change)

Seattle is all steep hills. The city is really not suited to snow.

The north/south roads through the city are all relatively flat, but the east/west roads are all steep hills

[untold valve]

why do they make the switch?

[true harness]

18 is really good for flipping burgers, even in cities

[summer roost]

Yeah, most places still pay less than $8 for flipping burgers

[untold valve]

im so cofused, SWE as in software engineers?

[summer roost]

Most of their money is tips/gratuities, so it depends

They're only guaranteed ~$7.25/hour, but tips allow them to make much more

[true harness]

7.25 is the federal minimum wage, but some cities set it higher, e.g. seattle

[untold valve]

so they switch fully to software engineer? I was asking more how to implement python and chemistry together

[summer roost]

Yeah, but a) not everyone does despite the social pressure, and b) the minimum hourly wage for waiters is actually $2.13/hour, with the expectation that tips will take that to at least $7.25/hour. If someone makes less than $7.25/hour after factoring in tips, the restaurant is required to make up the difference to bring them up to $7.25/hour, but many waiters don't realize that, and wage theft is common.

[untold valve]

when were they asking @kind oar?

[untold valve]

cool, thank you!

[olive inlet]

I have a question - I've heard a lot of people say you'll stop programming as soon as you get a job? Is this true or is it mostly just based on experiences

[smoky quest]

if you are hired for programming, no.
If you aren't hired for programming, yes.
If you are talking about side projects once you get a job, then yeah, your free time will be a lot less than at school

[olive inlet]

ohh wait sorry I messed up my wording lol, I meant you'll stop liking programming rather than stop programming

[smoky quest]

I don't find this true then.
You will have more constraints as the work is more directed. But that depends a lot more on the job you have decided to accept than anything

[olive inlet]

I see, thanks

[smoky quest]

If you work on interesting or challenging problem, in a good environment, then it can become a lot more fun and closer to a passion than anything

[near ocean]

it definitely impacted my github timeline when i got a job
it just drained me so much that i couldnt do anything in my spare time

[smoky quest]

As a rule of thumb, what motivates people would come down to:

• Autonomy / Volition
• Mastery
• Purpose

[graceful mason]

depends if you're working on a shit product or with a frustrating team

[summer roost]

I quite enjoy programming still, over a decade into a professional career. I do barely any open source stuff, but I enjoy my work a lot.

I've had other jobs in the past that I didn't enjoy, so it depends a lot on the job. If you find one that doesn't challenge you, it can be quite unfulfilling.

If you don't enjoy the job you're doing, remember that you can always find a different job to do. There will be jobs that align with your interests and preferences, and it is not a personal failure to discover that a job is not enjoyable for you.

[brittle thorn]

Lol there are bad folks in LinkedIn met and done biz with a few be careful

[brittle thorn]

Some companies have training bond which are contracts in which they have to repay a set amount if they leave a company before the end of the contract duration

[brittle thorn]

Its more like shifting to SWE fully for most and doing Chem /Chem Eng on the side for many... I have worked in a Uni Research Lab and a Testing lab but spent most of my career as a Software Dev, Web Dev and coding stuff unrelated to Chemistry

[brittle thorn]

Why lol....sounds self defeating

[olive inlet]

i've heard people tell me that I like programming now but I won't in the future so I was mostly wondering whether it was true or not

[brittle thorn]

It is perhaps partly due to deindustrialization as manufacturing plants move to lower cost areas and the economy moves more to service sector jobs...

[brittle thorn]

Probably anticipating burnout...they can move to management

[brittle thorn]

A factor here maybe percieved or actual age bias in tech so they feel the need to move up to management

No plants like the ones my dad used to work in no chem jobs and no pollution in the area...another factor is greater demand for software devs compared to Chemists or Chem Eng drives up the salary differential

A couple of friends who stayed in Chem / Chem eng mostly did in the context of academia and that requires masters and preferably a PHD

[fickle flax]

Hello, does it help to make a personal website or blog about lets say how to implement lienar regression model from scratch with full stack deployment? Would that stand out in resume if added blog website to resume

[smoky quest]

depends on what you mean by "does it help"

[granite grail]

yeah? i guess so, i am 14 so i am naturally unaware of that

[summer roost]

Well, yes. In university, you'd major in Computer Science, or possibly Software Engineering if a school in your area offers it. In high school you should take a computer science class if one is available, and focus on math and English, too.

[gilded valley]

anyone who is currently employed as, or has been employed as, a data scientist (or adjacent role) - do you know of any certs which hold any weight at all?

sorry for the ping - but I think you're working as a data scientist (or similar) @peak halo, do you know of any certs which employers care about?

[fickle flax]

@smoky quest oh sorry like does it help to stand out among candidates if i put it on resume for internship student Data science roles

Because Some youtubers (data scientist with their own channels) mentioned that what made them stood out for landing that first data science position is to be weird in good way that makes you different from other candidates applying to same job so I was thinking having a blog about different ML algorithms from scratch with derivations included.

[brittle thorn]

Yes being weird in a good way helps it gets someones attention

Being the weird chem major with a programming hobby of making bitmap file parsers in dos and icon editors back in the 90s got me started in IT and absorbed in the Uni IT dept

[brittle thorn]

Go ahead do it lol

[fickle flax]

Oh okay thanks, but would it help for data science as this is bit different from IT

[brittle thorn]

I think it would

The principle is being not a commodity helps in any field

If you are like everyone else then it does make it hard to get noticed or chosen

Some cultures might be conformist thou like japan... so being weird gets punished

[fickle flax]

Oh okay thanks, i was going to also ask if i want to apply to jobs for data science or ML internships, how would I know if im ready to apply or is having 1 NLP project full stack (Dockers Flask React Google Cloud Tabelua) good enough and a personal blog ML website?

[brittle thorn]

Seems good

I think you can apply even without the project but having it will help

An intern is like training

[fickle flax]

Oh okay thanks, the thing is I dont have any experience or past internship for data science this is my first time. It hard to help for open source software since majority are using pre build models already and are not open to newcomers or project is already done

[brittle thorn]

So they will be accomodating of knowledge gaps

[fickle flax]

Oh okay thanks, i will do this!

[gritty rivet]

In this situation it never hurts to just start applying. You never know if someone might give you a chance. You may or may not get interviews, you may or may not bomb them if you do, but this is the best way to figure out how ready you are and what you might need to work on.

[brittle thorn]

Do it

[brittle thorn]

Yes it is what I observed too ...done a TF project myself

[peak halo]

In the US, they only care that you have a computer science or other relevant degree and tangible experience, though that tangible experience can be something you did as a student.

The only developer certification I've heard having any weight in the tech industry is the AWS certification. But that isn't necessarily for data scientists. This is just based on my limited observations.

[gilded valley]

thanks for the answer

[worn pawn]

Guys I screwed up my college degree wont get scores, probably will have to drop out
I just know basic programming
How hard will it be to land a job?

[dense mesa]

@worn pawn is there no way to finish the degree or do it elsewhere

[worn pawn]

Theres a mild chance that I'll get the degree but it'll be garbage scores
Cant spend another 3 years to do it from somewhere else

[near ocean]

why do you want a job in this field then?

[marsh wind]

afaik garbage scores but degree still far outweights the case of no degree at all in many places

[worn pawn]

I do have enough savings to get a new laptop and start freelancing rather thn doing it from somewhere else

[marsh wind]

my experience is similar so far, for data stuff certs are fairly worthless

[worn pawn]

I'll take ur advice makes sense

[gilded valley]

That definitely matches what I've heard from people in passing, I was just hoping there might be something. The selfish angle to my question is that my employer is willing to pay for me to sit some certification, but I have to find one and essentially do it in my own time, but if there's really none that are valuable, I'd rather just spend time doing whatever takes my fancy rather than forcing myself into sitting an exam

[gritty rivet]

I also think that's the right choice, finish that degree anyway you can and move on. Good luck!

[light radish]

Does anyone know if its appropriate to put something along the lines of "At home developer" as a job on linkedin and list my projects there. The issue with linkedin is that most recruiters just look at the top section of your page where your jobs are and the bullet points under your jobs. I am currently working as an electrical engineer trying to get a python developer role. The company I currently work at does not have many opportunities to apply python. However at home I have completed quite a few projects which utilize very in demand libraries/technologies. Any thoughts?

[gritty rivet]

A lot of people seem to just put whatever title they are aspiring to in that situation. So just "Web Developer" or "Software Engineer" seems to be acceptable even if that's not your current full-time occupation.

[vapid jay]

What the most popular application of a Python developer?

[digital fjord]

probably web backends.

[vast shoal]

Or data science pipelines

[past sparrow]

machine learning

its popular but may not be the most popular

[vapid jay]

hi! does anyone know why Python rose in popularity in the recent time?

it was always 3rd 4th and etc

[buoyant seal]

probably machine learning helped. All those neural networks are good to be done in python

[vapid jay]

does the language itself facilitate it or ML libraries written in it?

or both

[buoyant seal]

languages itself is very easy to enter, which makes it a choice to write scientist stuff like ML libraries for it
scientists highly likely often choose it because of easy entriness

[vapid jay]

wow. i never thought Python is any easier than some Java

[buoyant seal]

way easier than java

[vapid jay]

wow. interesting. maybe the general intelligence of the population got lower?

[buoyant seal]

but that's relative. Python is easier to enter
But some more complex application could be better be written in Java

[past sparrow]

its easy as pie to read and work with

also most of development centers around development speed, rather than performance

[vapid jay]

what are "development centers"?

[past sparrow]

development speed meaning how fast coders can write features

[vapid jay]

how does it still work if it's magnitude slower?

[past sparrow]

I used the verb "center", so if "X centers around Y" = "Y is really important for X"

[hearty island]

um guys i have an interview w a fortune 500

and amazon just reached out to me on handshake i’m kinda shook rn

[vapid jay]

oh to center. I thought you meant development centers.

the entry barrier does.

[past sparrow]

congrats, i got an interview but chickend out since my DS&A was so trash

[hearty island]

it’s for data analytics

[vapid jay]

isn't it quite logical: the entry barrier is lower and more stupid can enter?

[past sparrow]

not just that... for the same level of intelligence working in Python is more productive than working in Java, for example

[vapid jay]

what language do you have experience except the low entry language?

[still condor]

hello

[past sparrow]

i spent time dabbling in various languages like C++, C, Java, Rust, Haskell, typescript which are all more 'harder' languages

[vapid jay]

and you prefer Python most amongst them all?

[past sparrow]

don't really have any preference per se... i like typescript a lot, but if I were doing data science i would use python

[vapid jay]

What the main reasons of such a decision?

[past sparrow]

for typescript or for python?

[vapid jay]

please don't lie. it's not nice.

calm down your fantasy.

[vapid jay]

Python

[still condor]

@vapid jay What are you getting at?

[vapid jay]

I want to figure out why Python has risen in popularity in the recent years.

[vapid jay]

I have used for many times in the past but couldn't find anything interesting that could fix me on it.

[past sparrow]

python just is kind of the king when it comes to data science... it has the most robust ecosystem currently with all sorts of frameworks for DS/ML/DL

[still condor]

@kind oar If you want to report someone, contact @severe widget

[vapid jay]

So the main reason is the environment but not the language itself?

Hey relax. Direct your aggression to anyone else.

[past sparrow]

for me yea, since after learning a whole bunch of languages the languages all kind of look the same..
but python is super easy to read. Imagine scientists that dont know how to code, but still need to analyze molecular data/astronomy data

[vapid jay]

that sounds reasonable

[vapid jay]

i wonder why do they need a language at all. don't they have some specialized software for those needs having some basic scripting.

[still condor]

I don't think there's a single, simple explanation. Things like that are complex, with feedback loops and peculiarities of history.
But I think it's true that:

• Python has a big ecosystem and community. It means that there are lots of libraries to use and resources to learn from. Python has been around for a long time, so it has grown some idioms and best practices
• Python is pretty easy to teach and learn. It's also taught often in universities, so many graduates will already know it by the time they finish university

[past sparrow]

python is that langauge

[vapid jay]

i see. that explains everything.

i just have worked in software area for like 15 years already and python never was a dominant language. it was there but used sparingly from time to time. its very moderate performance due to its script nature never allowed it to become a full fledged language.

[past sparrow]

i mean python recently has taken huge market share

[dapper depot]

what is a "full-fledged language"?

[vapid jay]

and 2021 it became first in most ranking like tiobe, stackoverflow, google and etc

[mild zenith]

The scripting nature isn't the bottleneck

An example is PowerShell and how it leverages the CLR

[still condor]

Lots of applications don't need even the speed of JavaScript.

[past sparrow]

the language is just a tool at the end of the day

[still condor]

In a web app, you can handle hundreds or thousands requests per second with Python. (depending on your application, of course)

[past sparrow]

there's no "full-fledged language", there's only pros and cons.

[vapid jay]

have you ever seen benchmarks comparing different languages?

[still condor]

yes

[mild zenith]

Different tools for different jobs. Python is amazing for quick and dirty stuff. In most cases, what you lose in runtime speed you gain in dev time

[vapid jay]

full-fledged means not Turing complete but practically useful.

[mild zenith]

Python is great for prototyping, as a glue language to make processes play well together, as a wrapper language (numpy and other ML thingies)

[past sparrow]

i dont think u know what turing completeness means

[mild zenith]

With the plethora of libraries and tools in the ecosystem, it's easy to throw something together

And as it grows and grows, it becomes more performant and versatile

[vapid jay]

"In computability theory, a system of data-manipulation rules (such as a computer's instruction set, a programming language, or a cellular automaton) is said to be Turing-complete or computationally universal if it can be used to simulate any Turing machine."

[true harness]

not Turing complete makes for an extremely useless language

[past sparrow]

all programming languages are turing complete

[mild zenith]

Could be hiccups anywhere across the line.

[still condor]

https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r20&hw=ph&test=fortune&l=zijzen-sf

[vapid jay]

why are you evil?

[mild zenith]

Don't respond.

[lean ravine]

careers

[mild zenith]

Probably

[vapid jay]

maybe. I am not strong at programming language theory.

[mild zenith]

And most of the time a delay for an email isn't a huge deal

I'm assuming it's minutes as opposed to days, right?

[vapid jay]

to me it sounds like a language is universal and can do anything.

[past sparrow]

the point ur trying to make is python may not be the best when it comes to large projects due to its dynamic nature

[mild zenith]

@vapid jay Unless it's domain specific

[vapid jay]

my point is to find the reason why it became the most popular language.

[past sparrow]

it allows developers to be 10x more productive than before

[vapid jay]

what exactly causes it? what features?

[true harness]

hasn't that been answered? it has a large ecosystem of libraries

[past sparrow]

doing the same thing in Java takes 10x the lines of code
and yea ecosystem and all (which came as it grew)

[vapid jay]

what exactly? how is it implemented in Python in 10x less lines?

[past sparrow]

private static final Map<String, String> m = new HashMap<String, String>() {{
    put("RC", "T1");
    put("AC", "T1");
}};

this is just a dictionary in python

[still condor]

this is even worse in Rust, and it's still growing in popularity 🙂

ok, maybe not worse

[true harness]

you're kinda exaggerating, no one writes java like that anymore

[vapid jay]

we do. even more.i am kidding i am not even a java developer.

[true harness]

huh? what I mean is half of that could be inferred

[still condor]

1. "most popular" is debatable, it's not really possible to measure.

2. as I already said, the reasons are often complicated, not explainable by something simple like "it has 50% more vowels than C" (which is true but is hardly the cause) or "Python automatically makes you write code 42069x faster" (either). Languages have complex histories and complex communities.

For example, Google and Dropbox adopter Python at some point. Did it play a role in Python becoming more popular? Of course.
There's also the issue of feedback cycles. Languages which are already popular will get more popular.

[vapid jay]

i personally prefer good old C.

[past sparrow]

i wouldnt know since I dont have professional experience with it, but of the things I've seen, i find it very verbose

[still condor]

Ok, writing a web application in C will probably be a few times slower than in Python.

[vapid jay]

yeah and at some point Facebook adopted PHP but quickly dropped it.

[vapid jay]

and if it's already written and you just need to run the most fastest server in the world? no coding involved?

[true harness]

but they haven't dropped python, so what's your point?

[still condor]

hm?

[past sparrow]

i gtg, cya

[vapid jay]

do you know what happens inside of Google or Dropbox?

[true harness]

I don't see how that's relevant to what you or I said

[vapid jay]

if some developer of thousands decided to use language A it doesn't mean Google adopted it. I meant that.

Facebook relied heavily on PHP but stopped doing it.

[still condor]

Well, they didn't really "drop" PHP. It's complicated
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack_(programming_language)

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Google doesn't really use Python?

[vapid jay]

Google doesn't really use Python? sounds like "Developers don't really use Python?"

[still condor]

I don't understand you

What is your general point here?

Did you just come here to assert that nobody is using Python? 🤔

[vapid jay]

What was the main reason why after 30 years of existence and being a unpopular scripting language it became the first in 2021

for 30 years just some people touched it. from time to time.

what changed the situation

[true harness]

it wasn't unused then shot up in popularity. there wasn't one individual change that made people use it

[vapid jay]

oh. my rough estimate was so accurate: 1991 30 years

[still condor]

@vapid jay
You mentioned TIOBE. Well, it has some data on its popularity metrics of Python.
https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
Seems like it was pretty close to C# (what's C#? probably another unpopular scripting language) until 2018, when for some reason it started getting more and more popular.

[vapid jay]

why it went so long to the first place?

[digital fjord]

A big part of that is probably just DS&ML getting more popular, for which python is probably still the most used language.

[still condor]

that sounds like a plausible explanation to me

but it's probably more complicated

[digital fjord]

and well, it's not like it was some fringe thing, python has had industrial adoption since early python 2.

[vapid jay]

So the main reason was DS&ML

[near ocean]

What, python just got popular last year? What

[digital fjord]

it was probably a combination of various factors.

[still condor]

The world actually started existing last Thursday.

(according to me)

[near ocean]

Cant trick me, i wasnt born yesterday

[still condor]

or were you?

[vapid jay]

The world started existing the day you become conscious and will end the day you lose your consciousness.

[still condor]

Maybe a crazy idea, but what about gradual typing?

PEP 484 was made in 2014

[digital fjord]

it may just be dropbox actually having some vague success with the language at scale.

[vapid jay]

you mean adoption of that feature allowed to become it more popular?

[still condor]

that is a possibility

[vapid jay]

probably. having less bugs is always a profit.

[still condor]

yep, I can't imagine working with a fully dynamically typed 100k lines of code

sounds like a nightmare

[vapid jay]

as a pragmatic person i don't mind to use a universal and best language (if it exists). not like different languages for different needs.

it's difficult to have a zoo of languages in your mind. especially to have them always up to date and being ready to use it anytime without refreshing your knowledge.

[digital fjord]

I think history has pretty confidently proven that one universal language is not possible to design.

[true harness]

.xkcd 927

[stiff latch]

Sometimes the 'single standard' effort works -- I can only think of one example though at the moment, it's MIDI - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI -- it was an absolutely outrageous success

[vapid jay]

though if the computation hardware progress wasn't in stagnation it could be possible.

[digital fjord]

you can't do everything at once without breaking changes, and you can't have breaking changes to be universal.

[vapid jay]

Why do you have he/him? Does it mean you are gay? Or straight people also use it to mark their gender?

Better?

[summer roost]

you can't assume anything about someone's sexual orientation based on their pronouns. Plenty of straight and cisgender people include pronouns in their online profiles to help normalize asking for and respecting people's pronouns, as a way to be an ally for our trans and non-binary friends.

[vapid jay]

so now i am such an ally then.

[summer roost]

It's a great step!

[real oyster]

Would anyone here consider data engineering to have a lower barrier to entry than data analysis/data science?

I'm a CS student and also doing a data science course on dataquest. I looked into data engineering and it seems interesting but I don't really know what's better to try and get into😅

[sharp briar]

I heard 2 column resumes are out but damn they seem to emphasize the highlights way better and make a HR person that isnt really interested pay more attention. should i really not do 2 column ?

kk ty

[smoky quest]

2 columns aren't necessarily parsed well and end up looking like garbage

[elder oracle]

Hello , i want to work in the field of deep learning and there is a course I am currently attending. How much effort should I put into Deep Learning mathematics? I am an engineering student and my mathematics is not bad, but I have a hard time understanding some things and it can take a lot of time. Do you think I should ignore the incomplete understanding and focus on project development? Or should I focus fully on learning?

[smoky quest]

Both. Understanding what you are doing is important to successfully applying them.

[elder oracle]

I get it. But I don't mean to leave the math behind completely. I understand the residual network up to a certain point, for example, I don't fully understand that the identity func is an easy thing to learn. These are the details I mentioned, do you think I should continue to think about such details or not? Should I ignore it after I get to the point?

[real oyster]

Yeah tbf when I am looking at jobs DS seems to have the most requirements, even the internships and stuff 😦 But thanks, I haven't even really thought of it as BI before so I'll look into that as well just to see what other skills/soft skills are relevant

I'm in my second year of essentially a 3 year bachelors, and was looking for summer internship here in the uk. I have a couple data-related projects on my gh now thanks to dataquest luckily. Some of the internships are quite low bar of entry, but some DS ones are literally like minimum masters/phd for an internship which I found a bit weird but maybe its normal

[vapid jay]

anyone here not studying comp sci? in my first year of a business degree and considering transferring to joint business and comp sci next year, but i'd have to take an extra year

[real oyster]

ahh gotcha, makes sense then

[smoky quest]

I would not necessarily overthink them and let them stop you, but I wouldn't just drop them either.
Make a list of these topics to get back to it eventually

[gritty rivet]

People have all kinds of career paths in tech these days. I've seen software engineers with degrees in almost any field you can imagine.

The joint degree might be worth it if you are sure you want to focus heavily on SWE, but if you feel that you can't, you'll still be fine and can still become a full-time programmer if you choose to pursue it

[elder oracle]

Thank you so much you really helped.

[smoky quest]

It can take some time to digest and reflect on some information. So it's find to get back to them

[gritty rivet]

The majority of the SWEs I've had the chance to talk to so far at the company where I just got hired are like me and have social science degrees (psych, econ, soc). I totally get that we're at a disadvantage in how far we can ultimately advance, but we exist and we do ok

I finished my BA almost 20 years ago. If I knew back then that this is what I wanted to do should I have majored in CS? Yeah, probably.

Good point, that's true

[polar violet]

Yo guya

Apparently the DN managed to trace the IP of this server. Is it true?

[dense mesa]

Deez Nuts

[elder oracle]

i get it thanks again

[brittle dune]

this is fiya 🔥

[summer roost]

It's also unrelated to Python careers.

[brittle dune]

no

[hallow mango]

where can I find someone to practice python with?

[summer roost]

Please don't troll people like this.

[summer roost]

This channel is for discussing Python and jobs/careers. Your question is not on topic in this channel.

[quasi glacier]

Lmao

[gritty rivet]

Mintbean server has a #find-a-buddy channel, I even saw someone in there looking to study DSA in Python with.

[upper girder]

Wanting to study software engineering and work at Microsoft willing to go for bachelor's in computer science

[smoky quest]

nice!

[dapper patio]

Best to probably learn C++ or C#

[robust atlas]

is PCEP certificate worth it? Together with CS degree

[smoky quest]

not as much if you have a CS degree

[robust atlas]

any other certifications that could help with getting a job?

[smoky quest]

not really if you have a cs degree. Projects and experience would have more impact

[robust atlas]

any advice on where to start doing projects as a beginner?

[tight crater]

maybe look for something simple on google, anything that you might find interesting

[smoky quest]

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[granite grail]

Yes, I'll join a Computer Science competition or something like that soon on February 3. I'm not that bad at Math and English too

[tight crater]

that's actually pretty useful

[dense aspen]

Is having a degree absolutely necessary when trying to find a Python/Django full stack job?

[gritty rivet]

If you're starting from zero and have no better ideas, a good first project is a text-based game like blackjack, trivia or a dungeon adventure. But the best projects solve a practical problem you are interested in, like automating something you currently do by hand

[hazy oriole]

get the experience of doing some projects (like help others)

[gritty rivet]

No, not absolutely necessary. Build the strongeat portfolio you possibly can, network a lot, and be persistent

[smoky quest]

It's the normal path and easiest path.
Not having one can certainly make things a lot more difficult and complicated

But nothing is impossible in absolute

[wheat kernel]

what degree do you guys hold?

[hazy oriole]

to ?

[wheat kernel]

majors etc

[hazy oriole]

?

WEll let me get passed out of school

[wheat kernel]

are you a computer science major?

[hazy oriole]

if u asked to me , no

[wheat kernel]

ok

[hazy oriole]

i am just a master in python

[wheat kernel]

ok

are you a student or dropout from college?

[sullen flower]

I am a final year computer science student and I just started to learn coding (python), any advice on what do I learn after python to become a software developer?

[hazy oriole]

student

[hazy oriole]

if u meant lang then C or else u should study ML stuff

[gritty rivet]

I have a BA and multiple MA degrees, my last one was in sociology. So as far as coding goes I'm basically self-taught aside from a part-time bootcamp.

I know a lot of SWEs with irrelevant degrees and definitely think an irrelevant degree helps a lot compared to no degree at all

[wheat kernel]

ML courses are for grad school? isnt?

[hazy oriole]

just go online find

[smoky quest]

https://roadmap.sh/

A lot depends on what you want to do. The rest are just ways to get there

[sullen flower]

ah tysm

[rustic badge]

for someone looking to become a developer would you recommend them indulging in another major of interest vs the traditional CS?

[gritty rivet]

I guess it depends on your interests and goals. The ideal is to study what you plan to do

So if you're certain software engineering is what you want to do, a CS major will be the most beneficial

[summer roost]

Agreed. If your goal is to become a developer, the degrees that are most likely to get you a job in that field are Computer Science or Software Engineering.

[rustic badge]

fair enough

[gritty rivet]

For me personally, I think a CS degree would have been too hard and too boring at that stage of my life. Had I thought CS was the only viable path, I'm not sure I would have made it to graduation.

So it really all depends on who you are and what you want

[summer roost]

I agree that it's not the only path. But it's certainly the most direct path.

If software development interests you, and you think it's the direction you want to go with your life, a CS or SE degree is the most streamlined path towards a job in the field.

[past sparrow]

bootcamp more streamlined imo, but probs only for web dev

[smoky quest]

bootcamps can be great for career conversion. But they are poor substitute for a degree

[rustic badge]

Me precisely.

Found that I have a better appreciation for CS now in my early 30s than in early 20s

[rustic badge]

wouldn't you say this is dependent on location/market

[smoky quest]

no

[summer roost]

ah - so, you're in your early 30s. Do you have a degree?

and, what do you do for a living now?

[rustic badge]

Yeah. In something completely unrelated though

[summer roost]

how completely?

[gritty rivet]

In what location/market is a 4-year degree not superior to a 4-month bootcamp?

[rustic badge]

Right now I do Lab IT work, and am looking to convert to software dev myself.

I dropped out of CS as well and will be restarting soon

[rustic badge]

General Sciences

[summer roost]

that's at least STEM - that's not the least closely related field.

[rustic badge]

was genuinely asking out of curiosity tbh.

I just assumed in a market with a web dev shortage for example, it wouldn't matter much?

[smoky quest]

It's not that they would not be able to find a job. With enough time/energy/perseverance/connection, anyone can find a job
It's more like they would not be hired for the same tasks and would not have the same career outlook

[summer roost]

Yeah. You'd be able to get hired as a web dev based on the bootcamp, but the pay and prestige and skill level for web dev jobs are generally lower than for software dev in general.

[rustic badge]

ah, understood

[summer roost]

for mid-career transitions, a bootcamp might be able to get you into a low tier web dev job. You might be able to convince your current company to move you from an IT based role to a software dev role, assuming they do both things. Or you could go back to school to try to get a CS degree, and try to leverage that into an entry level software dev role.

[rustic badge]

How significant is the gap in pay you'd say between bootcampers and degree holders?

[smoky quest]

that can be pretty large. In the multiples

But the more extreme the variance, the more extreme the cases

[rustic badge]

Multiples. Yikes.

Alright, roger that

[summer roost]

I can only speak for the US, but I'd say that the starting salary for a web dev is maybe ~50% of what a more specialized backend dev might get, and by the mid career they might be making more like ~33%

a 2x to 3x multiple is pretty believable.

[smoky quest]

Note it's a lot about correlation vs causation. It's not because you have a degree that you will have these things.
But having a degree means you have studied a lot more and thus more likely to be able to go deeper and handle broader situations and in turns grow faster and further. Having been at a school for longer and with higher aims, the quality of your professional network is also much better.

[rustic badge]

Yeah, that's reasonable

[smoky quest]

In abstract, you could learn as much on your own by studying as much. But it's still pretty different from having a whole dedicated environment and teachers and peers to learn from and interact with. (also few have the patience or dedication to spend as much time and energy on their own)

If you have good and valid reasons for that, then that should be easy with HR to justify it

Trying to help you cheat would go against ethics and ToS

[whole wasp]

How’s that cheating it’s against my religion I just don’t know if they will accept it

[summer roost]

At will employment means that they can fire you for any reason that isn't tied to your membership in a protected class - https://content.next.westlaw.com/5-501-5857

you can sue, but you'd almost certainly lose.

if you have a medical reason for not getting the vaccine, HR will likely be understanding towards that. that's probably the only way you're getting to keep the job without getting vaxed.

[smoky quest]

Because it doesn't sound like you do have religious grounds. Just using it as an excuse. IF that's really the case, then your local religious connections should be able to guide you better

[summer roost]

right, yes. There are people who can't get vaccinated because of preexisting medical conditions that make them not a candidate for the vaccine.

If you're one of those, you'll likely be able to get an exemption from HR by giving them a note from a doctor.
If you're not one of those, you likely will not be able to accept this job.

[smoky quest]

Trying to scheme for medical reasons when you don't have one would also undermine people who do actually have valid medical reasons

[summer roost]

note also that lying in order to avoid their vaccine requirements is fraud, and could backfire spectacularly for you if they discover that you defrauded them.

[graceful mason]

Companies can't discriminate against people who are unable to get vaccines because they're in a protected group (e.g. disability, religion), if you aren't covered by those exemptions then they can absolutely not hire you

It's also worth checking whether your religion has an actual prohibition against vaccination, because AFAIK the majority of them do not (including most Christian denominations, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism)

[smoky quest]

Aside from the ability to do so, that's a great way to get noticed from the begining at your new job. Even if it was possible, that would be asking for troubles

[summer roost]

Since it seems like you're trying to rationalize lying to them (by pretending you have a legitimate medical reason to not get the vaccine), I should also point out that getting a fake vaccine card is a federal crime, and would be a very, very bad idea.

Some people who've gotten caught doing that have served prison time for it.

[summer roost]

it seemed like you were considering a fake medical exemption, so it seemed worth pointing out that a fake vax card is also a bad idea.

You can try to get a religious exemption from the company, but the company may or may not accept that. If they don't, you likely have very little recourse.

If you were sick recently enough that a doctor recommends against vaccination, you may be able to get them to hire you if you agree to get vaccinated within N months. Again, that'd depend on the individual company's HR policies.

I do think people who had covid recently are told to not get vaccinated immediately, so they might accept that explanation as long as you agree to get the vax ASAP. Or they may not, thinking that if you were going to get vaccinated you've had enough of a chance, so they might well not believe you if you tell them that you'll get it once you're safely able to.

[pastel wadi]

Hi

[void tundra]

Just depends on the companies HR policy. According to CDC/WHO there is not any specific medical reason to not get the vaccine outside of standard approval in the country. Some companies just take you at your word for medical exemption.

Depending on where your traveling, the city/country may have its own requirements and those typically have a vax or no entry policy, no exceptions

[vapid jay]

You could just get lucky and land a work from home job, and not deal with the non-sense.

[summer roost]

the question was specifically about a company requiring proof of vaccination as a condition of being hired.

in an at-will state.

[vapid jay]

^ and mine was in response. The companies I know of don't care about a shot if you wfh.

[honest pivot]

This person asked exactly the same question in multiple discords, by the way

[vapid jay]

This person sounds like they have decisions to make in the near-term =/

[void tundra]

Sounds like they're just looking for argument points to not take the vax

[vapid jay]

Sounds human to me.

[summer roost]

if you will never be asked to visit an office, that's fair. But a lot of companies expect teams to come together once or twice a year, in which case they have reason to be concerned about things like vaccination status.

[vapid jay]

meh.

work from home is work from home. If I need to be in person, well; its an emergency considering my role.

Haven't stepped foot on property for > 1.5yrs

[summer roost]

and of course - employers are perfectly within their rights to extrapolate plenty of undesirable personality characteristics from someone's refusal to get vaccinated.

intentionally putting yourself into the same bucket as the QAnon crazies is a pretty good way to raise red flags at your prospective employer.

[vapid jay]

Maybe. Maybe not. HIPAA

I suppose it depends on what role you're hiring for. If you're known. If you having backing of fellow employees at new company, x + y + z....... etc.

[summer roost]

HIPAA only prevents health care workers from sharing information about your medical history. As far as I know, it does not prevent employers from asking about your medical history.

[vapid jay]

You can kind of write your own ticket for some roles in generic circles that you roam if you reach a certain level of "known"

[summer roost]

sure. But given the OP's concern, they presumably don't fall into that camp.

[vapid jay]

That's how you read what they so ever meticulously crafted. They're just looking for guidance. Good or Bad. Agreement or Disagreement. A point of view.

Perhaps in search of an Echo Chamber, or not.

But a real human need to ask a question. In hopes they'd get answer without ridicule.

[void tundra]

Correct

[vapid jay]

It's why I hate the duality of code. Ask question X in Y way == bad hacker, bad. Ask Question X in Z way == Blue Team Professional.

I'm also glad there is hope in humanity and that companies are finding neat and novel ways to stay afloat without letting the current disaster, ruin them.

[summer roost]

I don't believe anyone has strayed into ridicule here. I've been careful to be as factual as I can (with the possible exception of the phrase "QAnon crazies", but really, it's a legitimate point that you probably don't want to make yourself look like the people who think JFK Jr. is alive and about to declare Trump president again).

[vapid jay]

PCI-DSS 3.2 += X will be magnificent. So many companies are currently violating pci-dss it's hillarious.

You still maligned someone without knowing if that was what they meant 🙂 Get to know a bloke first.

[summer roost]

I don't believe I did.

[vapid jay]

I'm not saying ya did, nor do I care if ya did. Just pointing out what I saw, and chatting. That's all. Nothing more or less and no offensive 🙂

How many companies let their employees WFH without a Firewall between the employee and the layer 2 mess that is their home wifi or the local starbucks.............

[summer roost]

I pointed out that, based on some things they had said, they might consider getting a fake vax card, and that if they did consider that, it would be a bad idea. That's not maligning, that's relevant information in an area peripheral to the question they were asking.

[vapid jay]

You lumped that train of thought into a perjorative.

[summer roost]

Well, I didn't intend to. Let's leave it at that.

[vapid jay]

^ agreed.

[summer roost]

if anyone is thinking about getting a fake vax card, they should not. It's an extremely high risk thing to do, and breaks at least federal laws and possibly state and local laws.

[vapid jay]

So many companies right now are letting a majority of their workforce, which was supposed to be "at the office", roam free........

Would be interesting to chart out.

[summer roost]

and if someone has a legitimate medical reason not to be vaccinated, they should let the employer know that.

[vapid jay]

I've never once in the history of my life been asked by an employer, for my health records in an explicit manner.

I'm sure they've select * from blah where x == dummy, but never once asked me. Ludicrous at my age to think that is now a thing

[void tundra]

There also hasn't been a significant global health pandemic in 100 years

[vapid jay]

1

That is the point where I was going, but decided, not to further type. However, since you asked. Lets talk about it eh?

[summer roost]

nor I, but I've also never asked for an accommodation. Asking to be exempted from their vaccine rules is requesting an accommodation, and employers are free to ask for evidence in support of requests for accommodation, so far as I know.

I know a previous employer required doctors notes before assigning a standing desk for an employee, for instance.

[void tundra]

Medical history is legal to ask about, it's generally just not needed outside a pandemic. Asking about sexual preference, religion and similar is entering illegal territory

[vapid jay]

A pandemic. This kills humans. Human death is, bad.

Shots are good. They cured polio, prevented Anthrax (so I was told 5-6 times in my life), can "stop" a flu, maybe prevent the chickenpox, who knows.

The way I grew up in the 80s, we was taught that a vaccine as in the Noun; that it would prevent you from ever getting X.

It was never about preventing you from dying after you caught X ^ x^2+20.

2019 changed that right? It's interesting... Our strings, they change.

So shots are good for the general public if they prevent me from infecting you. i.e. I don't turn you into the walking dead.

If they prevent me from being infected by you? great, sign me up!

It's a new technology. I hear there is mRna in it. Ribonucleic Acid from High School I think....

Either way, DNA or RNA, whatever... It's a shot.

I can't read the source code. They won't share it. They ought right?

So yeah, consider me skeptical 🙂

^^ All in all, that shot, or that booster, or all of em? None of them can stop it, so don't force someone against their will.

I was forced. Anthrax.

[smoky quest]

so many opportunities for trolling here.
Probably best to stay focus on #career-advice

[vapid jay]

^ I agree.

[summer roost]

The way I grew up in the 80s, we was taught that a vaccine as in the Noun; that it would prevent you from ever getting X.
That is absolutely not true. We've had flu vaccines for decades, getting vaccinated against the flu does not, and has never, meant that you would never be able to get the flu.

[void tundra]

bites tongue

[honest pivot]

I don't think we should allow #career-advice to be hijacked by anti vax discussion.

[whole wasp]

Hey guys thanks for all the help

[summer roost]

I can't read the source code. They won't share it. They ought right?
Both the MRNA vaccines are patented. Anything patented is public information; that's a requirement for getting a patent.

It's a new technology. I hear there is mRna in it.
And, FUD aside, there is an approved vaccine in the US that is not an MRNA vaccine.

[smoky quest]

(also having access to the source code is not guarantee of you having that very same version)

[vapid jay]

Can we not talk shots here?

I like work from home, and who knows Python!

[honest pivot]

We spent a week at work on patent websites hunting down every patent by another company in order to prepare for negotiations, you can literally find everything.

Can people stop pasting these things with all the extra line breaks please?

[void tundra]

There is no vaccine on the planet that stops a disease, but if everyone takes it in a short period and everyone reduces their odds of catching the disease to 5% then the odds of it dying in the wild skyrockets.

That's why vaccines back in the day prevented the spread, everyone was on board with this new vaccine thing that had just come out and got it asap

[summer roost]

yeah, IIRC even the smallpox vaccine only reduced the likelihood of catching the disease by about 2/3rds.

that seems like a reasonable path forward.

[smoky quest]

That's very much non-commitmental and generic. HR will still be wondering what they should make of it

If you haven't signed any offer letter, they may reconsider also other candidates to avoid troubles/delays

fyi, HR doesn't care about you specifically. Any large-ish company will onboard a bunch of people every week. What they care about is whether you have signed X, will sign X by Y or won't sign X. Anything else is just worries and troubles

alright, that should lock that in and buy you some time at least. But expect some push back on that email since it's not actionable

Think about the opposite roles. What if you were asking to be paid and were asking them to send you your paycheck for the month.
How would you react to Also, I’ll be sure to provide you with paycheck-related info at the earliest.?

That would not give you any clarity with regards if it's a yes you will be paid, or no you won't

[void tundra]

If you're going tomorrow, I'd just wait

[smoky quest]

at 11pm, no one is gonna read it. MAke your phone calls in the morning and go from there

(or whatever chicago tz)

[void tundra]

Right now, their expectation is by Thurs, if you're going tomorrow, then they'll have a response still 1-2 days early

[smoky quest]

If you can't make it by the deadline, you should let them know about it and be ready to walk away

but you can't always have the cake and eat it too

Also typically, only some of the forms are required to have within X days. That may not be the case for the vaccination proof (I don't know for that doc specifically federally or for your state)

[void tundra]

Your simplest option is to just be straightforward wtih them. If they asked if you're vaccinated, explain your reasoning, then let them decide

I would say I am not vaccinated at present because of x,y,z

Yes, anything else may come off that you're avoiding the question

You can mention that you are going to see a doctor expecting whatever it is you're expecting, but I would mention now that you are not vaccinated

[smoky quest]

yeah, you want to be careful about surprising people

[void tundra]

As an employer myself, I prefer straightforwardness. Her email implies they are wanting documentation showing you're vaccinated. If you say you're waiting for the info, they're thinking you are looking for your card. If they then get hit with an exception note, that would leave a bad taste in my mouth

[vapid jay]

"To backscroll or not, that is the question"

[summer roost]

I'd see how soon you can get a doctor's appointment before making a decision on sending the email.

[vapid jay]

@whole wasp -- At this point based on what I've read I would say the role in question is not for you. In no way can you send a response that doesn't smash a rod into a gong on the highest of mountains within "that" company.

Spend your energy elsewhere searching for things that don't reverberate throughout.

Seek and ye will find.

[smoky quest]

Subverting expectations work well in jokes but not so much in a professional environment. It makes people look bad and worry unnecessarily

[summer roost]

if you can get to the doctor and talk with them before needing to send the email one way or another, you might have something more concrete to say in the email.

[void tundra]

There's the answer, if you can see the doctor quickly, do that then email. If you can't get in until Thursday, then email first with a straightforward response

[summer roost]

Was it an internal recruiter or a third party?

[vapid jay]

With the way the HR dept has phrased it @whole wasp you will receive the shot in Y time or summarily be let go. Whether or not your timeline has hit their X min for the time when they say "No more", who knows..

And this is why I say your energy may be better spent, elsewhere.

[void tundra]

I'd just hold either email until you know how soon you can see a doctor

[vapid jay]

So if you're for the shot, then go with the company.

If you're not for the shot, seek elsewhere.

[summer roost]

if it was a third party recruiter, I'd say talk to them, they may be able to help, or at least set expectations.
For an internal recruiter, they're pretty much out of the loop once an offer has been made. I'd keep it between you and HR going forward.

[void tundra]

It'd be pinging them potentially one after another if you email them go straight into the doctor

[vapid jay]

I like stability myself. Wondering whether or not a shot I want or do not want is going to be mandatory is no way to live.

[smoky quest]

They have no reason to. Their job is done.
As mentioned earlier, call your doctor to get advice first in the morning, and then decide on the email

[summer roost]

a) probably not, they have no more control over HR's decision than you do
b) Unlike a third party recruiter, they don't have a strong incentive for you to keep the job. Third party recruiters are generally paid on commision, internal recruiters aren't.

[void tundra]

Only email first if you can't see the doctor by Thursday

[vapid jay]

Either you are willing to get a shot in the future, or not.

[summer roost]

I'm inclined to agree. You can stall on sending the email for a bit, and it's better to stall until you have something concrete to say than to respond sooner than absolutely necessary and say something vague and hand wavy.

[void tundra]

Not talking about the shot right now

[vapid jay]

I was referring to @whole wasp

[void tundra]

Simple answer, no email until you see the doctor UNLESS you cannot see them until Thursday.

[summer roost]

I'm saying don't respond to the email at all until you try to schedule an appointment. If you can get an appointment before Thursday, you may be able to delay responding to their email for a few days, long enough for you to find out whether or not the doctor would be able to get you a legitimate medical exemption.

[smoky quest]

I am saying to wait until you get more info (ie. tomorrow morning).
You don't want either to surprise HR/HM and you don't want scare them either

[vapid jay]

I'm saying why deal with the stress.

[summer roost]

that's also a fair point, realistically.

if you haven't been vaxxed and won't get vaxxed, it may just not be the job for you.

[vapid jay]

If you have to put this much mental of a gymnastics competition into it..... Is it worth it?

Good luck in your endeavour.

Alright, let me ask a question here about careers.

I've got employee X. I dislike X. X sucks. Waste of money a thief.

My role at the company is not for burning strings though. Never had a reason too.

All the sudden HR popped up and they're like hey dummy, code us up this thing.

This thing I built, It crushes X.

The ask was not about X though, it was about Z.

Do I crush X with the same mallet Z will be crushed with?

[void tundra]

That's likely going to be the case either way. Companies are within their rights to reject for no vaccination.

[vapid jay]

I turn my report in tomorrow.

[smoky quest]

it's not a get out of jail free card.
You also wouldn't be able to avoid the long term stigma

[vapid jay]

Just go or dont go for it tagmeinurreply; you're repeating yourself and your points at this pt.

[void tundra]

They asked for details by a date, responding sooner doesn't gain you any bonus points nor lose any

[smoky quest]

that's a bit too vague and hard to say.
I would recommend to be gracious in general anyway.

[vapid jay]

I've been gracious.

[void tundra]

Typically, it's best not to work out of spite in the workplace.

[smoky quest]

yeah, there are some specific dates to hit to prove you are legally allowed to work in the US. Nothing to do with vaccines

[vapid jay]

I agree that spite is not good.

This person though.... They annoy myself and others. They don't do their role.

This isn't the first, nor tenth time but way past. The Z ask was a code ask so, logs. I just pointed the str at X.

So now I have proof that X, sucks. I have many people whom would clap and agree if I dunk. Dost thou dunk?

windows event id 4801 if you're curious. 4800 too for the listing and structuring of who is logged in where and such.

Hell of a thing to code up. Plotly failed me. Elastic laughed at me. In the end, Python came through with a snip to the carotid. Enemy bled out.

[smoky quest]

Sounds like an opportunity for you to coach them or work their manager/lead for a coaching opportunity.
It helps them improve and demonstrate your growth and ability to have impact across teams

[vapid jay]

.... I'm in the Chain of Command @smoky quest

[void tundra]

Your wording is off the charts lol can't understand a lick of what you're talking about

[smoky quest]

like X your subordinate ?

[vapid jay]

I know who in the company has their laptop unlocked and for what periods of time.

x my superior.

4801 and 4800 is not an indicator of work, but a lack of a gap between 4801 and 4800 tells me the session was locked and thus no work done.

[summer roost]

I think, if you have proof that they've been stealing time or money from the company, you have an obligation to report that. If the situation is murkier, though, perhaps not. I agree that vindictiveness is a bad trait.

[smoky quest]

what could go wrong with making your superior look bad

[vapid jay]

It is murkier and that's the damn prob. 😦

[void tundra]

Use the kiss philosophy, keep it simple stupid

[vapid jay]

The prob is I unleash a hydra.

[smoky quest]

if you are remote, butt in seat doesn't mean much anyway

[void tundra]

What is the simplest thing to do?

[vapid jay]

Remember...... whole company. Now my algorithm hunts for others like X.

[summer roost]

I also think that, in knowledge work, someone not having their butt in their seat with the computer unlocked doesn't mean they're not working. Even while I was in the office, I used to sometimes go for a walk around the outside of the building while thinking through a problem.

[vapid jay]

When you have compliance requirements it better. Otherwise you're doing it on a non-company-controlled node and you're violating a lot of fun acronyms

[vapid jay]

Curves don't lie though. You can baseline a median.

[smoky quest]

I doubt your superior has to be logged in such environment all the time

[void tundra]

If you were put to task, do the task and deliver. Any result, it is what it is

[vapid jay]

I don't. I also know they do by way of mfa and a bunch of other fun type stuff.

So it's theft. at a grand scale. but to burn this bridge, is to set fires to others and to potentially unleash micromanagement using code that wans't intended for that outcome.

[smoky quest]

either way, sounds pretty involved in tracking them and wouldn't reflect too well on you.
So either they are just part of a report across the company, like everyone else, or you just focus on more impactful things?

[void tundra]

That's up to Management, if they go into micromanagement lockdown, then so be it.

[summer roost]

If they're mad about that, the worst thing that happens is they don't hire you. If you're vague about when you'll give them the vaccination information, the worst thing that happens is they don't hire you. If you're forthright and up front about your choice to not get vaccinated, the worst thing that happens is they don't hire you. For all of these options, it's a question of which choice has the highest likelihood of a good outcome for you. Dropping emails on the floor for a day or two will likely worry them less than insinuating anything about your vax status.

[vapid jay]

Without diving into the technicals of it recursive_error, think about it like this.

high - high hours for given time period. Say > 40 / weeek

med - ~ 30 hours or so

low... -- Thieves

My report hunts thieves. It just wasn't built like that. I simply added a for loop 🙂

[void tundra]

And if you've been tasked to make a report, do it.

[vapid jay]

o0o0o0. Hmm. Fair point.

[smoky quest]

If that's your report, so be it.
But don't go out of your way to single them out

[vapid jay]

That's the thing. I went crazy on it and scoped it to the whole damn company. EYE opening on metrics of a human and when we're at our keyboard.

[smoky quest]

it's your +2's problem

[buoyant seal]

I am Dev, I like doing Dev jobs
And yet at the moment I am required to do HR job
Which I hate to do
Is there any advice besides "suck it up"? ;)

And the boss can't do it, because he can't operate in a language needed to find the person :(

I don't like doing non Dev tasks, it feels like I am wasting time

[vapid jay]

I know =/ and that is why I'm so damned torn.

[void tundra]

It is what it is, not your job to interpret it, just to gather

[smoky quest]

also the situations can be very different across companies and people. For instance, rest and vest is a thing

[vapid jay]

The solution @smoky quest is to submit a report highlighting the thieves in the company.

[smoky quest]

if that's your task, that's your task. If you got into it, that's already a bit late.
Short of looking for other explanations and factors...

[vapid jay]

the thieves.

It's the original task. Z was suspected of thievery. I wrote the code. I baselined Z against other employees because of how the code works. Rather than a %, I went full baseline.

[smoky quest]

that would imply some conclusion on your side. I would keep it very neutral, very cya

[void tundra]

If it was in the same email, assume it all together and send it all in thursday

[vapid jay]

Yeah but if this comes out and they ask about X, I can be like Oh, here is a SLEW of issues. By the way lets bring in D, E and F as witnessess for they too know the level of shitbaggery.

That's why I'm asking. I've got the final nail in the coffin. I need an opinion of whether or not to hammer it home in the morning.

[smoky quest]

That's their conclusion to make. Not yours. Whoever happens to be in that report is just because of numbers

If a manager get a report their subordinates are screwing around, that's for them to investigate and decide. Sometimes it's expected/normal/perk. And some other times, less so

[summer roost]

@vapid jay you added a loop and went looking for something you weren't asked to. I'd keep that to myself, and perhaps ask if they wanted you to check others out as well, and make it clear that it would be easy to do. Then I'd forget what you learned about your manager until someone takes you up on that offer.

[vapid jay]

It's my role @summer roost ...

I have a lot of freedom, but i do have superiors. Their role doesn't override mine though. It's my hat.

[void tundra]

What are you debating? Completing what you were tasked to do or not?

[vapid jay]

The task is done. The question is how much icing on the cake.

[void tundra]

I'd deliver what was asked

[vapid jay]

You wanted X? Here boss, here is the whole platoon. Matter of fact, we could scale even further if you want.

The one story makes no sense without scoping to the env for the time period in question. Weekends are involved, etc.

[summer roost]

Is the HR stuff interviewing/hiring? If so, suck it up. That's always part of the job of a technical senior.

[vapid jay]

It's a question of a battered spouse I guess.

[void tundra]

If you're worried about X, that's favoritism if it's not your final decision

[vapid jay]

X is a thief.

[void tundra]

So deliver what you were asked

[vapid jay]

I've known it since J. But not my business, etc. It adds up over time though.

[smoky quest]

to add to godlygeek, it's also a great opportunity for you for growth.
That's how you get to expand your area of influence and reach senior/lead

[next peak]

Anyoone , any idea of at what age i should start freelancing like games for ppl and stuff.

[smoky quest]

how is it your problem though?

[summer roost]

If you looked at x's activity without being asked to, I'm inclined to think you went out of your lane, and I'd keep it to myself unless you were very convinced management would be happy you went looking.

[next peak]

Can someone help me?

[void tundra]

Whenever you feel like you have a skill you can sell unless there's laws determining what you can do

[next peak]

Ok

[vapid jay]

@smoky quest Because I am responsible for a large swatch of the company I put hours in for. My job is security and I have a deep role.

X was hired and I report to X in a given capacity.

X has irritated multiple people.

I'm about done being irritated. However..... If I speak up, X may get fired. If not it creates one odd damn workplace, no?

[smoky quest]

I would focus on getting into college first.
And you can always make game for fun on the side and dive deeper in the subjects

[vapid jay]

X == thief, period.

[void tundra]

If you were tasked to report on Z, then report on Z

[smoky quest]

Sounds like it's just you having an axe to grind against X.
However X spend their time is only relevant to their manager. Nothing to do with security

[vapid jay]

Makes me angrier the more I think about it. Considering I spent 13 hours today having at fun that I call work because I care.

[void tundra]

If you want to share the rest out of spite, I say don't. If you want to share the rest to help the company work to improve their processes, do it

[vapid jay]

I got a razor sharp katana I'd love to lop X's head off with and pike it on the nearest fence post. X makes the string that is my role a fricking joke.

[next peak]

yeah I guess so , but i already made an account for upwork(btw im 12 ) .

[vapid jay]

It'll burn folks 😦 I don't want to do that to others. This software is an evil algorithm as some may call it. It hunts, humans.

[void tundra]

The age limit on there is higher than 12

[smoky quest]

expressing harmful intention against anyone is not a good sign. You may want to take a step back

[rigid flame]

Lol I don't think you are ready so early

[next peak]

yeah

[vapid jay]

That's why I'm here 🙂

Report is due in ~ 8 hours or so maybe

[next peak]

Ik , but if I want to start i think i can put the hourly price at like how much 5 bucks ? or 10.

[vapid jay]

I'm a baker, and I got a cake. Firehosing thieves would be one hell of a chery. Just not sure I want to introduce that kind of tech logic.

[smoky quest]

It's not because you have an account that you have to use it.
At 12, people will just try to take advantage of you and you still lack a few things to learn.
It's also more fun to work on your own ideas than others. So just enjoy your own games

[void tundra]

If you're adding more to hurt X specifically, don't. That's working out of spite

[vapid jay]

Not hard either. Write program that takes Event Code of 4801 and tracks the delta between the nearest 4801. Math it up and love some Python.

[rigid flame]

Don't think about money now, just focus on your work

[vapid jay]

Ok yes, but now what do I do about the other theives?

It's fruit of the poisonous tree in one manner of speaking.

[smoky quest]

I can tell you that acting out of spite like that will not make you feel better or get you any goodwill.
In a few years, when reflecting back, you will note how it doesn't even matter, if you remember about it at all

[vapid jay]

It's not spite. It's a solution hunt 😦

[next peak]

Ik , i made my dad a scientific calc in py , and he said he's gonna bring me to a py course (im also more avanced in school than other kids in my school so i go in class with bigger kidss) for Peter Praker (respond)

[void tundra]

Not your problem if your job doesn't procedurally inform the powers that be

[vapid jay]

I'm the most senior person complaining about X. Therefore the decision to raise it to HR rests with me. I haven't budged yet.

I can directly confront, but man; that'll be the fourth of july. I don't want that.

[smoky quest]

your words do sounds very close to spite though

[vapid jay]

I'm pissed, yes. This person is a thief who makes my profession, look a joke. My team busts its butt, but this? All the layer 8 we discuss and now I have the logs to prove the layer 8 assertations were 100% correct?

[void tundra]

Have you ever spoken with management about your issues with X?

[smoky quest]

lmao, wait until you get into the C-levels

[vapid jay]

Solving Z made me think of X because of Z's accusations.

[rigid flame]

Wdym by X here

[vapid jay]

Yes, but in sworn silence not to go to HR, but to be on the record if need be.

[vapid jay]

X is a person whom I dislike very much and whom I now know is a thief and well, I'm done with them.

[void tundra]

Lol that sounds like drama. If an employee is a problem, take it to HR.

[vapid jay]

@void tundra You give the person the benefit of the doubt first though.

Only in rare circumstances do you bypass that whom with which you have a problem with. Otherwise, cowardice.

[void tundra]

Have to attempted to make amends with X?

[buoyant seal]

@smoky quest thanks. Just the answer I was expecting i guess.

[smoky quest]

I would also recommend https://www.amazon.com/Managers-Path-Leaders-Navigating-Growth/dp/1491973897 It gives a nice and short overview of the different roles and expectations

[void tundra]

You're thinking about this too hard. Go see the doc, email everything in Thursday

[vapid jay]

I have not yet confronted X with the accusations that X sucks. I want too, yes. It is sensitive though. I am subordinate to X. This is, tricky.

[smoky quest]

(even if it has manager in the title, it covers pretty much all the roles from intern to CTO)

[buoyant seal]

1050 reviews, looks solid 😉

[void tundra]

It's as complicated as you make it. If you haven't attempted to make amends and you don't go to HR, that's on you. Turn your task in as it was given

[smoky quest]

Note that you may find some roles where you can dive deep as an expert. But most of the jobs will have some component where experience translates in enabling less junior engineers, whether technically or from a managerial view

[vapid jay]

I can go K steps above X and it wouldn't be a thing. Thus far, I have just chosen not too 😦

When do I call them out though MrBean?

If any of a time was good to do so, this report just happens to be the biggest Flaregun I can ever think would go poof when the trigger was pulled.

There will be other flareguns, of this I'm sure; but man... this gun is huge!

[smoky quest]

I think you are overthinking this a bit.
It's very likely your +2 will just tell X to be more careful or keep a closer eye on them. But they won't necessarily be fired on the spot like in a movie

[vapid jay]

I doubt the superior will want me as a subordinate after this.

[smoky quest]

You may even get some "coaching" out of this for being too noisy

[void tundra]

If it was me in this situation, I would turn in the task as it was given and let them know I saw similar inactivity with others if they would like me to produce the report.

To me, any questions beyond that is just extra nonsense

[smoky quest]

But that's because you seem very adamant about singling them out

[vapid jay]

Nope, I won't. That's why I'm asking 😦 I hold a chance to do one of two things in a couple hours. Say something and bring up the fact that Z made me think of my X prob, or say nothing.

[smoky quest]

your job is to report whatever numbers you need to report. Not to judge them.

[vapid jay]

Aye, a bad Captain is a bad Captain. The ship doesn't like icebergs.

[summer roost]

I think taking it to the phone is a terrible choice, because it puts you on the hook for immediate back and forth dialog, and they will likely ask questions that you don't have good answers for.

[whole wasp]

Ya @summer roost

[smoky quest]

you can also test the waters with whomever you need to hand out the report to. Let them know you don't feel comfortable about the implications and see what they say

[vapid jay]

To even answer the implications involves whether or not there is past evidence. To not bring up the past evidence at this point, it to lie about it because you did not disclose

Gah.. Let me rephrase. So. the question is:

"Hey boss, I know you're a turd, but I like you. How do I fix you?"

[smoky quest]

That's a pretty binary view of it

[void tundra]

Doesn't matter, I've never gotten along with my boss I told I started working for myself(and that's up for debate!)

[vapid jay]

Do you code?

[smoky quest]

yes

[vapid jay]

It's a professional turd though, not an at home private one =/

[vapid jay]

Awesome. What if someone hired at your company to code, but couldnt? they lied? Would you be upset? Would you cover for them? What if you worked for them? Might it anger you a tad?

[void tundra]

Doesn't matter, if it helps the company as a whole, there's no debate here

[vapid jay]

Oh it does @void tundra -- But it makes me a potential Openheimer.

[smoky quest]

How does that relate to you in a different team?
You may not even know half of the actual situation

[vapid jay]

and while I love physics, there was an algorithm created today. Once published to the repo, well. It's known and cannot be undone.

[smoky quest]

that would be my manager's problem

[void tundra]

Still doesn't, if it benefits the company, then you are failing your job by not releasing it

[vapid jay]

@smoky quest Thy tree has few branches =/

[smoky quest]

my performance is managed by my manager only. If you have feedback, you are free to take it to them. Worst that could happen is they get more info about better coaching me

[vapid jay]

@smoky quest The manager in question is in the direct line of a chain of command as it were. It is a problem because there is no branch.

Without fired, it equates to a seismic shift. And it can make me look like an Asshole in the end.

[smoky quest]

if there are no rooms for you, then gtfo

[vapid jay]

It merits fired though. Kicked to the curb, etc. I'm angry about it, and with reason. Good reason that others support, not just me myself and i.

[void tundra]

You were tasked to report on an individual and found information management would like to know, deliver the task as requested and let them know what you found. If they ask for the report, give it to them

There is nothing ethical about it because it is not subjective.

[vapid jay]

@void tundra -- That's about the best thing I can do. It doesn't spite them, but damnit.. Hard to hold off on dunking =

[smoky quest]

If anything, X being allowed to continue to be a hindrance is as much of a problem as it is a symptom of problems across the org

[brittle thorn]

Quit your job it is not worth the stress then report everything

[vapid jay]

You're on point.

[vapid jay]

Heck no. I love where I work. That is the problem. I actually enjoy my so called "job". It is a ride every day. I do what I want and how I want. It's fun beyond word.s

I get paid to code python ffs. What's not to love.

[void tundra]

You did a task. You found more info management would like to know. Ask them if they want it. No it's ands or buts.

[vapid jay]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMvVju64A20

[brittle thorn]

Then try to do the right thing

[vapid jay]

That's why my job is like every day. I'd hate to upright the boat.

The right thing to do is to confront X. Confronting X potentially capsizes my Andrea Gail. I don't know if I'm ready for that yet.

[brittle thorn]

Sometimes it is necessary

[vapid jay]

Ok. Fine. You're right @brittle thorn -- Do I do it with witnesses? To do so without is stupid. To do so with says "This dude is a liar, but ""look at me!""

[brittle thorn]

Yes with all documents

[vapid jay]

I want to have this guy fired. And that takes a lot, coming from , me

So let's say tomorrow is the 4th of July.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t1IK_9apWs << yes, really

X is the alien, and X is invading.

It's time to rewind to when I confront and then have my secret service shoot X through the glass.

[brittle thorn]

I have done that to a dean who was my friend a good friend who asked me to fake data...reported him to uni president and saved the uni further trouble..but I did quit my research job that I liked

[vapid jay]

fwiw folks... If and when you do get that job you wanted, that career? Treasure it. Jealously. Guard it.

[brittle thorn]

Be brave

[vapid jay]

@whole wasp See a lawyer yo.

You're wanting an Echo chamber that isn't here my friend. You ask about the same thing by changing the shades of colours. Blue is Blue and Red is Red. green is green still too.

[brittle thorn]

There are things more important than a career

[vapid jay]

If you really want a job, dm me. Maybe you got chops we could use @whole wasp

[whole wasp]

Bro I might as well get it

[vapid jay]

Yep. Agreed.

[whole wasp]

It’s the future there’s no way around it

[vapid jay]

See? You're doing it right there. Yes, ICMP works. Stop pinging.

This channel is for Python and Career Discussions. I might not be a mod, but enough about the shot and a career. Please take elsewhere.

[brittle thorn]

Good luck been in your position and I survived and moved to better stuff

[vapid jay]

This ain't an I'm going anywhere thing though. This is me potentially having someone fired, or introducing one odd workspace.

I'm not gunna be like X or Me. Don't need to be. I'm here.

I know where I stand at and my word is strong.... I've just never took the leap of confronting this person. Today Z made me think X and so I do company as a whole to baseline the whole thing.

[summer roost]

As regards careers, yes, getting the shot would be a good career move. You will find doors that are shut to those who haven't been vaccinated.

[vapid jay]

The Z test just confirmed prior communications with others. Turd is a turd is a turd and no amount of lipstick on a pig can make that charlotte shine.

[vapid jay]

I disagree, but meh.

[brittle thorn]

Then let the data speak for you

[summer roost]

It won't.

No vaccine has ever caused side effects more than 3 months after it was administered.

[vapid jay]

@brittle thorn It's not about that. It's more of an introspection question now as to whether or not I have a very uncomfortable talk tomorrow.

[brittle thorn]

You can keep delaying and delaying and nothing will change

[vapid jay]

@vapid jayra

[summer roost]

Because it has never happened, from any vaccine, ever. That's not something vaccines can do. They prime your immune system. That's it.

[vapid jay]

You're correct. I'm wondering if this is the time to speak up. Z influced my pre-existing thoughts on X. X was not an influencing factor until the Z situation occured then the bell went ding.

[summer roost]

If you're having trouble breathing, that's an incredibly good reason to get vaccinated against a disease known for damaging lungs.

[brittle thorn]

Do prepare financially and have alternate jobs lined up if you can

[vapid jay]

The data does not lie @brittle thorn -- Other mitigating factors revolving around "Were they logged in" aside.... Theft.

[vapid jay]

I won't get fired; the blind man told the deaf mouse.

Could I? Yes. Would I? Wow, life is nuts.

[void tundra]

Your debating on a decision that isn't yours to make. You found info that would be beneficial for management to know. Ask management if they would like a full report, dust your hands off end of story

[vapid jay]

gah @void tundra -- I love your approaches. Ethical to a T

[brittle thorn]

In my experience , sometimes it is so it helps to prepare for nutty contingencies

[void tundra]

It keeps life simple and has never failed me yet. Anythi g beyond that is drama

[vapid jay]

You're right @void tundra -- I guess I'm echo chambering myself here... Trying to get someone to say swing tommy swing

how would you approach X @void tundra

[brittle thorn]

Document this data so it is easily ingestible by HR and management types

[vapid jay]

You don't like freedom do ya? 😦

[void tundra]

Regarding this data, this is for management. That has nothing to do with your relationship with X

[vast shoal]

@vapid jay I think you seem like you want to act on emotional grounds and I think what you're considering seems extremely risky for you.

[vapid jay]

I'm talking about my beefs with X. It's time to speak to X so that I can go to HR if it persists with a clear conscience.

[vast shoal]

I would absolutely not do it.

[vapid jay]

X is a shitbag and X+? knows it.

[vast shoal]

Yeah, exactly. Emotional.

[vapid jay]

? is > than X or myself. ? and I speak. I've prepped this step over the last months 😦 Sadly.

? was not to go to HR until I confronted, X. Something I was taught in the military.

[summer roost]

Yes, just like every other vaccine ever. Vaccines prime your immune system to react more strongly to a virus when the immune system encounters it. They reduce your odds of getting sick, and they reduce your odds of having severe symptoms if you do get sick. The long term consequences of catching COVID without being vaccinated are known to be absolutely terrible. I know people who caught it who were fitness buffs, who still have trouble walking up 3 flights of stairs 12 months later. I know people who've been vaccinated and caught COVID, too: none of them got seriously ill, all recovered within days. I know several people who died of COVID, all unvaccinated. I know several vaccinated people who caught COVID, all recovered quickly. The disease is much, much scarier than the vaccine.

[brittle thorn]

Why delay any further...

[vapid jay]

But ? is my insurance because I'm not trying to screw X over, just tired of X screwing over a contingent of the thing that is my company i work with.

[vast shoal]

All I'm gathering from this is that I would not want to be in that kind of work environment.

[vapid jay]

and yes @brittle thorn -- ? could flip, but not likely says the 8-ball.

[vast shoal]

Sounds pretty toxic.