career-advice

[hidden berry]

the inspiration behind my name was a talking point during an interview I had, and I think majesticsoup is weirder so

[buoyant seal]

@low field i'll agree with recurse_error on this. As long as it is not something like M0the4uCKeR, you are fine. gunraidan sounds perfectly fine.

[low field]

Thanks.

[smoky quest]

I actually had to push back on some of these accounts when adding them to the org

[low field]

I was worried that "gun" sounded too violent and kiddish.

[smoky quest]

Had to have the employees have a different account, which is fine too. But having 133th4x0r is not only childish but also hard to track with employees joining/leaving.
Also fyi, if you join a company with a github org, always create a separate account to avoid issues of ownership

[undone ocean]

Is anyone here by any chance studying math or business cause I'm kinda confused as to what I should do using both of these degrees. I am currently trying to teach myself some coding on the side using online platforms such as udemy but still have a long way to go before I can confidenlty put it on my resume 😅 . Was wondering if anyone here could potentially give me advice on what I should be looking for as I am applying for internships this summer.

[smoky quest]

I would assume your school and teachers would already have a good idea about the career prospects for your degree in your location

[bitter ibex]

hello

What language do i need to learn to become A Cyber Security Expert

[finite pivot]

Ig python

But u have to know atleast 3 to 4 languages

[bitter ibex]

Which other Languages do i need to learn please?

[bitter ibex]

and which one should come first

[finite pivot]

like definitely python should be there then u have to learn JavaScript and also C++

but some people learn professional couses like B.E in computer science

anyway can anyone send me the link to download python

[bitter ibex]

i download mine through phyton.org

[dense mesa]

I got the python developer role!!!

My first software job, part time while at uni but it's a brilliant start with very good pay :)

[brittle thorn]

I got my start at dev roles while at Uni too so that is great

[vast shoal]

Congrats!

[spark sleet]

amateur in different lang or mastering one lang ?

[vast shoal]

If you're a complete beginner, start with one, but it's very educational to study multiple different languages once you're more of an intermediate learner.

[thick juniper]

Wonderful! Congrats.

[thick juniper]

What's your definition of "an intermediate learner"?

I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I see words like "beginner", "intermediate", and "expert" everywhere, and I have no ruler against which to measure those words.

Is there a course or a book you know of which could teach those fundamentals for those who won't e getting a B.S.? Or is it a matter of experience and pulling threads from different projects together?

[summer roost]

My GitHub account is "godlygeek" and it's added to my corp org. Which I find only mildly embarrassing 😄

[vast shoal]

I really have no specific standards in mind when I use those words. The point is more "when you're a complete beginner, sticking with one language is fine, but when you start to feel more comfortable, branching out and testing different languages is a good idea".

I use intermediate rather than "advanced learner" because I don't think you should wait too long either.

[summer roost]

I'd say stick with one language until you no longer struggle to remember the language grammar when writing programs. You don't have to know every library function, but if you can't instinctively remember the syntax for defining a class or looping over a collection, you'll just confuse yourself by starting to learn a different language that has a different way of doing those things.

You don't have to know every feature, but you need a solid grasp on the features you're using.

[ivory sluice]

congrats congrats!

[buoyant seal]

my second language is forced to be JavaScript, because of the given tasks I needed to do. I am not sure if I feel myself comfortable to advance my knowledge in it to reach instinctive syntax remembering without googling it.
I am a bit torn apart, if I should continue deepening my js knowledge

Or if I can move freely to a language I wished to learn, golang.

From point of... desire of the first most important thing to have, I think I should go to golang.

On other hands, JavaScript can be needed a lot of more times. And it a bit not making sense to stop learning it in the middle

[summer roost]

JS is a weird one, but commonly used. If you still need to use it, I'd keep focusing on it. If you no longer need it and want to shift l towards a backend focus from a frontend focus, learning golang or Rust or C might be a better use of your time.

[buoyant seal]

we did not have frontend dev. So I learned JS / Vue.js and whole related ecosystem related to it, with HTML / CSS / SCSS to do the job related to it. Heh, even reached using Jest testing already.

[buoyant seal]

I am Backend Dev + Devops as main responsibilities and wishes. I am far more immersed into those directions.
Frontend is just third specialization taken out of... lack of other ways to solve the part of the project

[vast shoal]

I think it's not a bad idea to focus most of your attention on learning stuff that you find stimulating and interesting. You will tend to get the most out of that effort, and you'll be more likely to end up getting assigned tasks in those areas down the line.

[summer roost]

FWIW, golang and Rust fill similar niches, and Rust has been rising in popularity and golang has been falling. Rust might be the better choice to learn.

[lilac remnant]

Yes Rust ftw

[buoyant seal]

yeah. I find myself quite attracted to Golang because... it perfectly fits my Backend and my DevOps side
Golang made Kubernetes and Terraform. What else reasons do I need to learn it 😉

I just followed the roadmap https://roadmap.sh/ to try everything
while given advices here + in DevOps server https://discord.gg/devops, that certainly helped a lot.

In terms of Backend, just make sure u went through the books:
Head First Design Patterns
Clean Code by martin
unit testing principles practices and patterns (+ reading books recommended in it)
Clean code in Python was good also

basically... a lot of reading and a lot of practice. Everything I learned I immediately applied at the work. I was lucky having a free reign what I can try at my work. That helped a lot to advance quickly. Anything I learned was solidified by a lot of practice to be understood and remembered for sure.

The most imporant part related to backend i would say this:
Not tested work is not working.
Try to be always developing with testing in mind
Having code goodly structuruzed with testing in mind and having good enough coverage is always amazing.

Testing forgives mistakes. It allows to write 10 times better quality code without the fear to mess up.
You almost can't mess up tests. If tests aren't working, they are still right because they are pointing you where to work. They are still having your code kept correctly 😉
Well, though to read the book about best practices better be first in order to spend the most optimized time to testing.

Yeah, all books I recommended about the dev part.
I think that the person needs to be dev first before diving into devops.
it will make sure that the person applied software best practices when writing infrastructure code for devops. Same principlies are applied anyway.

The books for DevOps a bit harder to recommend, I could if needed though. Or you could just ask advices in devops discord server about where you currently go

[honest pivot]

I'm kinda curious about Rust, but I'm very much on a C++ kick right now

I'm working on a mixed Python/C++ project right now. Mostly C++, but with a user interface in Python.

[honest pivot]

I'm not in London

But it's a lovely place. Wouldn't mind living there if I could get paid a ton.

[hollow cove]

for data analysis, how much would you really need python?

even if I didn't need it for most of it, I would still love to learn it, just for the sake of learning it

[gritty rivet]

You don't "really need" Python to analyze data, it's just another tool which can be extremely useful or not good at all depending on what you want to do

[hollow cove]

I see

[fringe pine]

@strange wave Please get permission from the admins to promote within the server. You can ask by sending a DM to @severe widget

[hollow cove]

has anyone from here transitioned from a non technical job to a programming or analytical job that requires a certain degree of programming? How was the transition? How was the learning process?

[kind oar]

I think a lot of people do this

I personally think that is the best way to go about it, having the business knowledge and mindset is hard, but learning some technical skills is easier.

[hollow cove]

just a random question, was it in india?

oh ok, if you were to say India, that would've just made me lose hope in India once again

i see

yeah, imma DO that

[low field]

How nerdy of something can I put in my porfolio without it being "bad taste"? I'm considering making a Pokedex with the pokemon api. https://pokeapi.co

Thought it would be fun, but am having second thoughts since it won't impress a hiring manager.

I don't even like Pokemon like most millennials. I just think the project would be a fun nostalgic road trip.

[smoky quest]

Had you asked 15 years ago, yeah.
But now, you have a whole 2 generations of people who have grown up with it. So totally normal

There was even this on the news the other day: https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/12/us/los-angeles-officers-fired-playing-pokemon-go-trnd/index.html

Also don't hesitate to own nerdy things. There is nothing shameful about it.

[rare sand]

!mute @maiden timber 24H This is not an acceptable way to speak in this community. Take some time to read our Code of Conduct and think about how you phrase yourself in the future. Whether or not it was your intention, what you've said comes off as misogynistic and contemptuous towards women.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @maiden timber until <t:1642280006:f> (23 hours and 59 minutes).

[rare sand]

I realize you may or may not have intended it like that - one way to read this is "my friend followed a program for empowerment of women, but you can't do the same thing because you're not a women". But I don't really care what your intentions were, because the bottom line is that what you actually wrote is going to make some people uncomfortable, and I won't stand for that. That's not the kind of community we want. If you phrased yourself poorly, phrase yourself better next time. This stuff matters.

[tacit quiver]

Hey guys

How can i make money from coding with python ?

[safe loom]

I sent many apps and so far not a single positive response. I'm losing hope at this point

[gritty rivet]

You've shared your resume and had feedback on it?

Do you feel that your resume demonstrates the skills required for the jobs you're applying for?

[half dome]

Hi everyone, I was hoping to get some feedback as to what roles I may fit in that you've seen with my experience

BS - Economics
MBA - (Strategy & MIS Focus + Data Programming Credential)
Financial Research Administrator - 1 yr
Healthcare Data Analyst (2 Yrs Experience - Present

Current job tasks: PowerBI Application developer / analytical excel reporting

About me:
I enjoy working with systems and processes to figure out how they may run more efficient. This lead me to python and data analysis where I have automated multiple manual reporting processes and started using PowerBI for front end. However, I have never worked on a coding project with anyone else and lack github, AWS, and other major skills because of this. I also struggle to understand intense libraries such as tensorflow or sklearn

[gritty rivet]

@half dome Are you saying you don't want to be a healthcare data analyst anymore? What kind of change are you looking for?

If what you're getting at is that you like using Python and want to do more of it, there are loads of data science skills you can work on that aren't as complex as machine learning... Visualization, data pipeline tools, etc.

[thick juniper]

Also, without being mean, how many is "many"? Sometimes people think "many" is 20 or so. Please forgive the question if you've sent three hundred or something.

[undone ocean]

Dude I feel u on this one right here except I'm applying for internships lmao

[half dome]

I think that it is something that I could be good at, but I think I am able to do more if I knew where to point my focus and what to shoot for

[modest fractal]

@safe loom Where you located?

[final sphinx]

I want to learn and understand the basics right now, but hopefully soon I can shoot higher!

[gritty rivet]

I would recommend looking at job listings to help think about what you want to strive towards, then build projects that allow you to learn the skills you're missing. DataCamp and DataQuest both have a lot of tutorials you might find relevant.

[half dome]

Do you think there is any relevance in learning more languages or trying to master python would be more beneficial

[nimble oriole]

Hello. Did anybody of you here got a job in which the interview was with Python? What questions do you get in an interview as a trainee/junior? Is there a page in which I could search for projects/problems and upload them to GitHub? I know I'm not supposed to specify the language since the concepts are the same in all languages and also not supposed to ask something that I could search on google, but most pages give you either very easy challenges or they go into algorithms and other more complex topics. Ping on reply please

[slim night]

Anybody in here to maybe help with my existential career crisis?

[gritty rivet]

This really depends on your own interests and goals more than anything.

[gritty rivet]

Haven't officially got the job yet but am past the technical stuff for a very entry level, pure Python engineering role. LeetCode problems were fairly good preparation. The job description gave a lot of useful hints about what skills they were looking for.

[nimble oriole]

Was it algorithms and normal python only problems? Because in my country most people look for people with experience in SQL and sometimes Django now that you mention about job descriptions.

[smoky quest]

what's the difference between algorithms and normal python only problems?

[smoky quest]

don't ask to ask, just ask

[nimble oriole]

Even tho I understand that any program is an algorithm by itself I was referring to questions more hard than normal if you will, that require more skill.

[smoky quest]

that depends on the job. If the job requires more skill, then the questions will reflect that. Regardless of the language

[slim night]

I have a MSc in physics, a BS in chemistry, but I'm thinking about changing careers to make more $ as a code monkey

I like the idea of wfh because I introvert pretty hard

[nimble oriole]

That's why I specify trainee/junior, most of the job applications don't talk about which exercises are going to give you to resolve

[smoky quest]

trainee/junior is about the experience level, not about the skill level required for the job :p

[slim night]

I am self-taught VBA, C/C++, KiCAD, and learning Python right now

[smoky quest]

as a rule of thumb, you should expect some medium level leetcode and 1-2 hard here and there

[nimble oriole]

Will look into it, thanks

[slim night]

If I jump ship out of science and into software development, I am worried I might hate it and never be able to go back to working in a lab again

[smoky quest]

and since you mentioned SQL, you may have questions of the type:
"Here is a database with some tables, get me the monthly average of the expenses in that specific category". Assuming it's more about data analyst than backend

[nimble oriole]

@rich haven pinging you as you requested

[gritty rivet]

The particular job I interviewed for wasn't necessarily typical, but they asked me to handle files, dictionaries, errors, pretty simple stuff

If a job is explicitly looking for Django and SQL I would absolutely be prepared to be solving problems that involve those things directly.

Prepare for what's reasonable and it's not your fault of the interviewer is unreasonable. I applied for another job that was 100% Python and the interviewer insisted that I use Ruby. I couldn't feel bad about not being prepared and I no longer have any interest in working for them

[smoky quest]

how do you like it so far?

[slim night]

I play with code in my free time. Learning C/C++ was for playing with Arduino. KiCAD was to design my own printed circuit boards for electronics projects. VBA was for data processing at work. Now, I'm thinking coding might be a good way to get the $$ to spoil the hell out of my kids

It's fun, I like to problem solve and I like the satisfaction of a script that does what it's supposed to do

But I also love doing science. Been looking for part time coding jobs and nothing has come through for me yet. If I could do both, that would be ideal, but I don't know if it will happen for me

[smoky quest]

most popular jobs will be around webdev/frontend/backend/mobile. So pretty far from kicad,arduino and vba

[smoky quest]

Not sure what kind of physics you do, but there can be some heavy relationships between physics and CS. Although none that I know of which would pay as much as pure CS

[slim night]

@smoky quest Yeah, VBA has been declared dead at least once, but there still seems to be a lot of corporate inertia to continue using it

[smoky quest]

the vbas ones aren't at the top of the pay scale

[slim night]

I work in a chemistry lab atm, with inductively-coupled plasma optical emission spectrometers

Even the VBA ones pay 2.5-3 times what I make now ._.

[smoky quest]

In the US? EU? Other?

[slim night]

I'm in south central US

[smoky quest]

so like Austin?

[slim night]

Tulsa-ish

[smoky quest]

yeah, not known for its tech center. But good thing more jobs are remote

[slim night]

exactly my thinking

I'm a very STEM person in ....... a not-so-STEM state, culturally

[smoky quest]

yeah I see.
Either way, to answer your original question, with a ms in physics, you should have the chops to handle the transition.
And with regards to actually liking it, there is no substitute for doing it. Most tools being free, you should just try and see how you enjoy it. Just keep in mind that the field is huge in terms of applicability. So not liking something doesn't mean you won't like other areas.

At the end of the day, it's just like a cost function. The further away you are (skills, age, how much you are interested...), the more difficult it is

There is also the possibility of leveraging your current career, which could also help reducing that transition cost, but that would also require more research in terms of jobs using both. Not knowing anything about chemistry, I wouldn't be much help there.

[slim night]

a guy I went to grad school with now has a job writing Python code for oscilloscopes

[smoky quest]

And overall the field is pretty friendly and laid back. Most companies don't care about which hours you work as long as shit gets done

[smoky quest]

best time to connect with him

[slim night]

yesssss, I would love to have my current job and then come home and code in the evenings and on the weekends. I'd even buy a laptop to code on at work on slow days!

[smoky quest]

most jobs are full time though

[slim night]

yeah that's what sucks and is what I'm running into

I interviewed with a VBA developer startup and they said I was a "rockstar" but had concerns about my availability to clients during the work day

so I didn't get the position :/

[smoky quest]

What's the hold up? Just the fear of not enjoying it?

[slim night]

that, and I'd kinda feel like an a-hole quitting my job now, even though my manager didn't give me as much of a raise as I deserve because she would have had to do more paperwork lol

[smoky quest]

It's not your family. It's a business. They would not hesitate getting rid of you if it would improve their revenue.

[slim night]

I am also concerned that a lot of the VBA jobs I've seen, at least, have been 3 month to 1 year contracts, and with two kids and a mortgage, I am concerned about not being able to find consistent positions so that I can maintain income

[smoky quest]

yeah, VBA are also pretty niche

[slim night]

yeah. but I was also thinking that while I do VBA gigs, I could learn SQL and get better at Python, which opens up even more opportunities

[smoky quest]

yeah and data analyst

[slim night]

yes

[smoky quest]

you could learn a bit more SQL and go straight for it

[slim night]

the possibility of learning new things all the time sends a tingle up my leg

I LOVE working in science, I take pride in being a scientist, it's just not enough $ for the life I want to live

There are things I want for myself, and I want to be able to afford them

But I also know my personality, I get excited about things, I do them intensely for a while, then I lose interest. I did it with knitting, stained glass, woodworking, 3D printing..... I just don't want to lose interest in coding and then be miserable, stuck with a big choice I made.

Hence, the existential career crisis

HOWEVER I would "suffer" doing stained glass all day if it pulled down 80k a year XD

[smoky quest]

how long ago have you started writing code?

[smoky quest]

salaries are also higher for typical swe

[slim night]

I went from never opening up the macro editor in Excel before to having 4 to 5 VBA macros working properly in 2 months' time

that was in 2009-2010

[smoky quest]

You may want to pick up python https://automatetheboringstuff.com/ as it's a bit more intense than vba and see how it sticks

[slim night]

The lab I work in now, they were doing data processing by hand before I got here. I was like, "ewwww" so I wrote data crunching macros for almost every machine in the lab and they are used every day

Yep, I'm going through that eBook now!

But all that code I wrote to make everyone's lives easier still didn't convince my manager to "do some paperwork" so I'd be paid more :/

It's a real letdown, and is part of the reason I am considering leaving the lab and switching careers

[ivory sluice]

are you currently underpaid for your position? imo writing some macros to automate some number crunching might be seen by the employer as a free bonus that you did voluntarily as a one time thing

[slim night]

I'm making $18.08 an hour. I do consider that grossly underpaid

[ivory sluice]

if you're still new to python and working thru automate the boring stuff, you should give learning a solid go first. job hunt and career change planning can be put on the back burner

[ivory sluice]

for your specific position and location though? (idk what you're measuring against)

[slim night]

since this area isn't really tech- or science-heavy, it's hard to know

I plan on moving out of state once I get full custody of my kiddos

I could be convinced to stay at the lab a bit longer if I were bumped up to $23/hr. but my manager will make a face about the 'paperwork'😒

she supposedly works full time but never shows up before 11:30 am

she gets to the lab, goes to lunch, and gets mad when she has to stay past 5 pm

😆 💀

[ivory sluice]

what? surely there are ways to find out if you're being paid market value. have you looked into sites that list job titles & salaries per area?

[slim night]

I have, but the sample sizes are small or non-existent

I am being paid below the average for Oklahoma City and Tulsa though

[ivory sluice]

and if you broaden the search for your state?

offering or asking for paid work is against our #rules . please abide by them @coarse pollen

[slim night]

OKC and Tulsa are the largest cities, so they're the ones I compared against

There's not really another tech hub in the state

I agree with you that I need to keep learning Python, but I felt comfortable enough with VBA to search for developer jobs for it

I do very much enjoy crunching data with code

[tacit mirage]

do i need a gaming laptop or desktop for programming/coding college?

[true harness]

no

[slim night]

@true harnessI love your username

[ivory sluice]

you keep bringing up tech hubs but you're not currently in tech are you? i guess this isn't totally related to the topic of the channel anymore, but i asked bc you mentioned that you felt entitled to a significant raise but i wasn't sure what you were basing that on

[slim night]

I am basing my pay expectations on what I have seen posted on job sites like Indeed, ZipRecuiter, and Dice

I have worked in the private sector for government contractors for 15+ years and currently work at a public university

I have BSc in physics with math minor, BSc in chemistry, and MSc in physics

[vapid jay]

i'm trying to prepare for a tech interview, and I'm looking for a website to practice coding questions. Any suggestions?

[true harness]

hackerrank, leetcode, codeforces, codechef

[slim night]

You asked about my currently salary range and I can only point to the two major cities in my state as where the STEM jobs are

[vapid jay]

i was looking at leetcode and i saw premium, and i wanted to ask, what's the difference between free and premium

is it worth buying?

[true harness]

i think you unlock some extra problems, and get solutions or something. i've never tried it, didn't seem worth it to me

[slim night]

I guess I don't know what you mean by being currently in tech. I have written code for my jobs but coding has not been the major focus of those jobs, if that's what you mean

[ivory sluice]

it sounded like you're in research? i was under the impression that whole field is underpaid

[slim night]

I am not currently in research; it's more running submitted samples every day on our instruments and reporting the results back to the customers. And yes, science seems to be very underpaid compared to engineering, software, and other STEM fields.... which is why I am considering a career change

The other technicians in my lab were awed that I was able to write VBA macros for data processing. It blew my manager's mind. But I have some kind of Imposter Syndrome thing going on because I was thinking, "if y'all put enough work and practice in, you could be coding too."

[smoky quest]

if other labs in your domain experience similar issue, it could be a startup right there

[slim night]

You're right, of course, but I don't have the 'lobes for business

[smoky quest]

You may want to look into "micro saas"

[slim night]

oh, neat

[vapid jay]

As like a younger python programmer are there job opportunities or am I gonna need to go to some college... or do I just build a decent portfolio and apply for an internship? I need a guide lol

When I say younger ..meaning 18

[slim night]

I have seen people who do not have college degrees still land coding jobs

[smoky quest]

college is the way

[slim night]

but they started coding in their teens, like you, and they landed coding jobs in their mid-20s

of course, this was >10 years ago so ymmv

[smoky quest]

you can find a job without a degree, but you will have a real hard time without a degree to build a career.
It's like doing it in extreme hardcore mode.

[slim night]

they asked about job opportunities...

[smoky quest]

On this channel, it's mostly kids trying to weasel away from having to go to college

[slim night]

college isn't for everyone

[smoky quest]

And job opportunities would be greatly reduced regardless

[smoky quest]

It's no different from trying to get into a high level physics job without a degree

[slim night]

personally, I've never had any job actually ask to see my diplomas, so..

[smoky quest]

You can get in for the low level, easier jobs. But you will hardly get into the more rewarding and demanding careers

[slim night]

one of the dudes I'm talking about literally got the job he did because he answered a Craigslist ad for a programmer. He made good money, got experience for a few years, then moved to California

he was homeschooled in Montana and never went to college

...which is why I say @vapid jay's mileage may vary

[smoky quest]

I am sure he did. But that's more of an exception and still far away from the normal path

[slim night]

yes, hence the caveats I mentioned

[smoky quest]

sure. But I am more concerned about the other person getting the wrong impression.
The vast majority of kids trying to get in without a degree will hit a wall.

[smoky quest]

for context, the market right now is saturated with junior/entry level. You can easily get >100 applicants where 99 of them have degrees.
So not having a degree means you can easily get tossed out

[buoyant seal]

hehe Survivorship Bias

[smoky quest]

I am even getting some random linkedin connections from kids with a ms asking for jobs

so like wtf

[slim night]

ms as in Master of Science degree?

[smoky quest]

yeah

[slim night]

and we agree that getting an MS implies the person got a BS, yes?

[smoky quest]

yep

you aren't the only one trying to get these $$$

[slim night]

so.... college does not guarantee a job, but experience is more helpful

[smoky quest]

college years is still >>>> years of experience

[slim night]

......which is exactly what @vapid jay was asking, and was exactly the route my acquaintances took

[smoky quest]

there is the missing part here. Having a hard time with a degree does not imply that not having a degree will be any easier. It's gonna be even more difficult

[slim night]

I am only an entry level developer for Python. I have been coding VBA scripts for 10+ years

[smoky quest]

I have been hiring people, building teams and reviewing resumes for years 🙂

[slim night]

?

[smoky quest]

just sharing my experience

[slim night]

you said "for a years"

[smoky quest]

yes. I am that old

[slim night]

"for a years" does not make sense

[smoky quest]

you are absolutely correct. Let me fix it (done)

I will also mention I am not a native speaker. So do expect some mistakes, but I am working on it and that's not an excuse in any way

[slim night]

I can understand that you personally may want to see college degrees, but not every business is like that

[smoky quest]

I typically try to remove my opinions out of my takes.
I am trying to state what I see on the market and across my network

[summer roost]

Just the overwhelming majority.

[smoky quest]

and I think we have a different take on what is a job comparing to a career

[slim night]

yes, the person asked about "job opportunities" not "career path"

[slim night]

sure

[smoky quest]

I would rather not play with words.
I think I already made that distinction from the get go, didn't I? <#career-advice message>

[slim night]

lol k.

[summer roost]

Go to university or college. It's possible to break into the software development industry without doing so, but much, much harder than if your have a degree

[slim night]

Here's another thing: in the US, where I am, college is prohibitively expensive for a lot of people because it is so expensive. In other (developed) parts of the the world, college is free or very nearly so

I got loads of scholarships for both my undergrad degrees and I still had loans to pay off after I graduated

[summer roost]

I'm in the US as well, and strongly recommend college - though I'd suggest community colleges or state colleges over private universities.

[smoky quest]

I wholeheartedly agree! And it's such a shame and waste.
Some things to keep in mind:

• starting salary in tech are in the six digits across all the states. That can easily make up for any loans
• there are ways to get in cheaper through community colleges and grant

[slim night]

all of my degrees are from State schools, and with scholarships plus working while studying, I still had thousands of dollars of debt to pay off

[summer roost]

Not all debt is bad, and "thousands" isn't very much money when starting salaries for software developers are in the 6 figure range.

[slim night]

6 figures for entry level?

[smoky quest]

yep

[summer roost]

Yep

[slim night]

where is this mystical magical wonderland? Because I have been seeing mid to high 5 figures

[smoky quest]

that's the current market in the USA

[slim night]

then all of my developer friends who live by me are doin' it wrong, and they have 20+ years experience

[summer roost]

I graduated with around $70k in debt from a private university about a decade ago. My first job was $82.5k, I was above $100k after 2 years. My loans were paid off in 3 years.

[smoky quest]

that's the difference between a job and a career 😉

[slim night]

$100k after 2 years. our definitions of "starting" aren't the same. good on ya, that's awesome though

[summer roost]

That was 10 years ago. Starting salaries are higher now.

[smoky quest]

We hire across the USA new grads at 6 digits. More if in hcol. And we aren't even known for paying well

[slim night]

why haven't I seen that on all these job websites then?

[smoky quest]

also the higher the degree, the higher the starting salary

[summer roost]

I'm not sure. What types of jobs are you in the market for?

[slim night]

remote developer

[smoky quest]

Because you don't want to attract money grabbing people. These type of salary go naturally with people who are in the career

[summer roost]

100% remote does tend to pay lower. What type of development?

[slim night]

lol again, I'm in the USA. We don't get help from the government so we have to go after money

[smoky quest]

Also there is a reason I was pushing you towards python rather than VBA earlier

[slim night]

Understood, but VBA is my strongest right now

[summer roost]

With 10 years of experience under my belt, I wouldn't even consider a job that pays under $200k anymore.

[slim night]

I feel most comfortable with it and I don't feel right having somebody pay me 6 figures for my baby snake skills

[smoky quest]

not that many people would feel bad about it

[slim night]

(ok, baby comedy troupe skills)

But you just said "you don't want to attract money grabbing people"?

[smoky quest]

and do not undersell yourself. You still have 10+ years of xp in physics/chemistry

[summer roost]

That's ridiculous. If someone values your skills at $X, are you really going to undercut yourself and say "I'm not worth that much!"?

[smoky quest]

Yeah. People expect to be money but they aren't there just for the money

[slim night]

I didn't say Imposter Syndrome made sense 😆

[summer roost]

Sounds like you're at the low end of the salary distribution, and I promise you don't need to be.

I guarantee you many people with less skills are paid more than your for work you can achieve.

[slim night]

At my current pay of $18.08/hr, even mid 5 figures is a step up for me!

[summer roost]

(so many typos... Mobile...)

[slim night]

hence my existential career crisis

[smoky quest]

take your time to make yourself comfortable with python, but you can do it. it's not about being smart. It's about putting the time and effort into it

[slim night]

Oh, for sure. There are things that bug me a bit about it, but I know I can do it

[summer roost]

I had internships in college that paid more than 10% over that, 13 years ago

[slim night]

yes, same

[smoky quest]

She was mentioning earlier how she even saved some time in her lab by automating some analysis tasks

So there is potential

[slim night]

But I can't relocate at this time, so I've got to take what's available in this middle-of-nowhere college town

[summer roost]

That's awesome

[slim night]

yes and it was fun af

[summer roost]

One nice thing about the pandemic has been that higher salaries are available to more people, as location has become less important and employers in high cost of living areas have hired workers from lower cost of living areas

[slim night]

There is this bizarre culture of not paying scientists what they're worth because...... they like science and so they shouldn't get paid a good wage(?)

[summer roost]

It has flattened the bell curve a bit.

[smoky quest]

supply/demand and impact

[summer roost]

No, literally because they're suckers.

[slim night]

But engineers, software types get paid a lot more

[smoky quest]

Think about whatsapp. They had 20-50 employees to reach 1 billions humans. That's a heck of a ratio

[slim night]

Scientists are suckers?

[smoky quest]

they don't bring in as much $$$

[summer roost]

yep. I know scientists, who do it only because they're idealists and true believers. The pay is terrible, the hours are terrible, you get absolutely no respect

The only reason people stick with it is a desire to better humanity.

[smoky quest]

We could also get into teachers and how much one teacher could have on their students too

[slim night]

yes

[smoky quest]

but at the end of the day, one teacher does not generate dozens of billions of dollars

[slim night]

I was going to make the comparison re: scientists and teachers

[smoky quest]

and again, I am not stating whether it's right or wrong

[slim night]

That's what's breaking my heart so much about potentially quitting my job: I would miss the hell out of being in the lab every day

But I'm a single parent with 2 kids and a mortgage on a house that reeaaaaaaalllyyyyy needs repairs and updating

And I want more money to pursue cool new hobbies, like converting old cars to EV

[summer roost]

A friend of a friend was a postdoc, sent to live on an island by himself for 6 months, a 6 hour hike from fresh water. The coast guard radioed him every 2 days to see if he was still OK. That's bullshit. It's bullshit that we have a system that allows for students to be put in situations like that. And only the True Believers put up with it.

[slim night]

it's true

[summer roost]

The craziest thing to me is that he thought that was OK.

[smoky quest]

did they enjoy it? Sounds like a lifetime adventure

[slim night]

our brains are just wired to pursue that science thrill

[summer roost]

I mean... Enjoyed that opportunity, yes. Enjoyed the day to day experience, no.

[smoky quest]

There is also that story about how phds who go to hawaii have a drop in their rate of papers published...

[slim night]

I think it's also maybe a Sunk Cost fallacy for a lot of scientists

"I worked my butt off to get all science-y, and if I quit now...."

[smoky quest]

there is also some interesting trade off in research being done between short term results VS long term results

[slim night]

oh for sure

[smoky quest]

note also that on the other hand, CS has been quite an enabler for science. We can collect and analyze so much more data nowadays. That can lead to some amazing results

[summer roost]

Anecdotally, I know a physics PhD who left Academia for a >$200k salary during the pandemic. His wife is also a PhD, and suddenly they've gone from broke to making way more money than they need, just from having one of them leave academia

[slim night]

Yes I ran away from academia as fast as I could

[brittle thorn]

Which is actually good in some respect and we should respect those that take that sacrifice

[summer roost]

Absolutely not. I don't think anyone should have to sacrifice their lives for the betterment of society.

[smoky quest]

one could argue it should not be a sacrifice in the first place. So many opportunities lost otherwise

[summer roost]

If society values a job, we should compensate the people who perform it. Paying lip service to the important work they do while underpaying them and refusing them stability does service to no one.

[slim night]

calling someone a "hero" doesn't pay their gas bill

[summer roost]

And it's amazing how fast "essential workers" became "unskilled laborers" again.

[brittle thorn]

Problem is society isnt perfect ... my brother is in academia ...he teaches and does research and is happy but he did forgo high salaries in industry

[summer roost]

I think it's a complete tragedy that we force people to choose between comfort and stability or acquiring knowledge to benefit humanity.

[slim night]

I have mad respect for anyone who stays in academia

It is something I simply could not do

[brittle thorn]

Im a science, chem major, that made a shift to IT early...yes salaries in lab jobs are low

[summer roost]

That said, I do think the people who devote their lives to the pursuit of knowledge today are suckered by the institutions who gladly take their publications and deliver nothing of value in return.

[smoky quest]

if you like it, put a ring on it

[brittle thorn]

Same

[slim night]

I am currently a chemistry lab tech who is considering switching to SWE full time

[summer roost]

that explains your salary. Yes, you're being conned.

[slim night]

sorry, dumb(?) question time:
what is the difference between being a software engineer and being a software developer? I have been using them mostly interchangably

[summer roost]

As much as I wish you weren't, and as much as I wish we as a society valued knowledge.

[brittle thorn]

I taught for a while, worked in a research lab and went to the software industry were pay is better

[summer roost]

They're interchangeable in the US.

[slim night]

oh ok

[brittle thorn]

And elsewhere

[brittle thorn]

Its a global problem

[summer roost]

There are countries where there's a legal distinction, and people without particular credentials cannot call themselves engineers. The US isn't one of them, though.

In many countries the terms are interchangeable, though, including the US.

[brittle thorn]

Lol I have done that do it ...I did find lab work, teaching and writing papers fun but it pays less

[rich badge]

Hi

[summer roost]

I hang out in this community because I like teaching and mentoring, but academia is a scam that preys on the naive. (At least in the US, I can't speak to globally)

[slim night]

hello!

[slim night]

the good news is I can get my STEM hands on fix by messing with microcontrollers

[smoky quest]

pretty much the same in other countries 😉

[slim night]

But it is so freaking cool to see the argon plasma at work change colors depending on which element the sample has in it...... 😩

[brittle thorn]

I have worked on an Arduino project too

[brittle thorn]

ICP OES im certified

[slim night]

yes!

I run two Spectro Arcos ICP-OESes, they're my girls

[brittle thorn]

Only one in my case ...your lab is great to have two lol

[slim night]

the secret is they don't pay very well, so they have $ to buy instruments 😉

[brittle thorn]

I know that been there done that

But did enjoy working at the lab

[slim night]

exactly.

[summer roost]

I think that science is a lot like game development, in that there are enough people who consider it their dream job that the people who cut the checks can profit on the backs of the faithful

[brittle thorn]

I wonder thou how much they pay the sales and support of these expensive lab equipment lol.. I an introvert thou and not a salesperson type

[slim night]

The ICPs only get professionally serviced once a year in my lab

manufacturer recommendation is every 6 months, but I do maintenance on them to stretch it out

the lab is in a basement, and the ICP room is back in a corner, so I can stick my earbuds in, listen to podcasts, and introvert pretty well

I would love to have a coding job where I don't have to talk to anyone lol

[slim night]

the older I get, I think my dream job is going to be more of a "pays me enough money so that I don't have to worry about money" as opposed to what I have now XD

[brittle thorn]

Lol I left the research lab job after a year and like podcasts too.. Coding is fun as long as specifications are clear and you dont have to clarify requirements with end users who may just be relying on whatever system we develop

[slim night]

those are also the reasons I enjoy coding

[brittle thorn]

The trick is to save until you can do whatever you want but that is a pipe dream for most...

[slim night]

indeed. But I am frugal by nature and have savings even with my wage now

buying stuff makes me uncomfortable

[summer roost]

I grew up in a lower middle class household, and my entire goal for a career was a job that pays enough that I don't need to check my balance before making reasonable purchases. I feel that.

[slim night]

^ that right there

my vehicle is 10 years old and I bought it used lol

sweet, I got this Collatz sequence script to work right

[brittle thorn]

We are upper middle but thrifty...but my brother who is in academia ironically isnt. I think people have different approaches to money and have given up trying to impose stuff on people who have others views since it can lead to uncomfortable conversations..

[summer roost]

I've used the Collatz Conjecture to teach people loops 😄

[slim night]

I love neat math stuff like that

[summer roost]

It's a good use of a while loop. If the conjecture is true, your program will eventually terminate, hehe

[slim night]

looooooooool I just found a job posting that wanted "other programming languages like Java, C++, and Fortran"

[summer roost]

Could be my company, we have some 🙂

[slim night]

I loved Fortran, it was so forgiving

[summer roost]

numpy uses Fortran under the hood.

[slim night]

I haven't coded in it in decades, but I did at one time

[summer roost]

(it's written in C, but uses libblas and liblapack, which are written in Fortran)

[brittle thorn]

I have seen labs cutting corners on calibration and maintenance will say no more about it lol hopefully the accuracy of the tests arent impacted but I personally know of a case in which a sample had questionable results that led to a dispute between the client and the lab.. The study was pharma related lol

[summer roost]

On the off chance that no one has ever told you this, that "and" means "or". They'd be happy with anything who knows any of those languages. Or any other language that's similar to one of those languages (C, C#, etc)

[brittle thorn]

Look for Python, numpy and Matlab openings ...I found using Matlab and Numpy fun

[slim night]

we test soil and plant matter samples for nutrients and water samples for salinity, among a few other things; it's not a drinking water analysis lab like where I used to work

[slim night]

I worked with Mathematica for my senior honors thesis, it was fun

career question: I see a lot of people talking about Django, should I learn that too, or can I get away with just Python? I don't really care to do web development at this time

[brittle thorn]

I used to test samples for insurance firms for salt water damage too while still an undergrad at a uni testing lab..
It was my OJT and it did cement my decision to shift to working in IT. I then worked as a lab assistant in the Uni Computer lab then got absorbed by the Uni IT dept in a Dev role...

[slim night]

usually the samples we get are creeks or ponds to determine if they can be used for irrigation, and the soil samples we get for salinity come from fields where a fracking operation has dumped a bunch of salt water on the field

[brittle thorn]

Depends Django is for web development if you want to focus on Data Science you should focus more on Numpy, Scipy and Pandas ,Tensorflow etc.. look at the job ads then adjust

[slim night]

ooooo SciPy looks promising

[undone willow]

I’ve been looking around LinkedIn and find myself startled at the lack of jobs I feel qualified to even apply for.

Has anyone here been able to overcome not having a bachelors degree and working for less/experience?

[brittle thorn]

I had a Physics Paper Published with Python so yeah it is. My undergrad paper was on Biogas thou while it was fun i didnt do computer sims in it but that was my high school paper too so it was convienient. Having a Chem Eng for a Dad with research papers in our house did facilitate that lol.

A chem essay writing contest that was interschool that I won in High school probably cemented my BS choice and it was on Biogas too lol

[summer roost]

Django is a tool for web development. If you don't want to do web development, you don't need to learn Django.

[safe loom]

Hi sorry for being late but yeah I showed my resume to my peers and they said "ok". It was rather clear.

@thick juniper By many I mean like 10 apps a day

@modest fractal Paris, France. This is where we have the most jobs but also they're all asking for experts.

[summer roost]

Is getting a BS an option for you? It really does make breaking into the industry much easier.

[slim night]

what about a coding bootcamp if a BS isn't an option?

[brittle thorn]

I did venture a bit doing some web development but it was on the MS stack mostly.

[slim night]

I did some HTML on a volunteer basis over a decade ago and I really, really didn't care for it. I guess that's the good part about trying stuff, you can see what you are good--and bad--at

[brittle thorn]

Add that to your CV

[slim night]

no way, somebody might make me do it!

[brittle thorn]

Ah then dont if you dont want to take a web dev route to coding... it has highs and lows, deadlines and if lucky a webby.. I attended two webby awards since our site was nominated

[slim night]

I hear you, I just don't have a knack for web design at all

[brittle thorn]

Probably focus on backend dev and Data Science

[slim night]

It's too 'exposed' if that makes any sense?
yeah, I'm more back end

[undone willow]

Tried a BA but i couldn’t get the material in a class. It was a Java class where I could get the project to work but I lost so many points due to bad form. It honestly kind of broke me.

I’m finishing now with a buisness degree in supply chain management. I still have an associates in computer science.

I don’t know if I can afford to get my CS bachelors or a boot camp.

:/

I do have a GitHub though.

[slim night]

I find trying to design something and make it look good to be more stressful than actually taking up a new language

[brittle thorn]

I dont either so the webby award nomination was mostly due to the web designer but they needed a backend coder too

[slim night]

get that degree then start looking for jobs that ask for business plus software development. I've come across a few on Indeed in the past few weeks

[slim night]

I feel like that's a wonderful pairing: somebody to guide how the want the site to look and the coder knows how to take it to fruition

[brittle thorn]

I understand and dont like interacting with end users too much... I prefer making APIs

[slim night]

It's that whole 'introvert' thing

[brittle thorn]

Probably is and probably why we both ended up in the lab in the first place lol

[slim night]

I have another career question:

[undone willow]

What titles have you seen like that?

[slim night]

I'm ok with coding, but I really dislike doing IT stuff like network admin. If I get a SWE position, how can I politely decline troubleshooting the printer?

[slim night]

So sorry, I didn't really try to remember the titles, but I have seen some software development jobs in a business environment. I think you'd have to dig through Indeed

[slim night]

Usually for 'finance' type companies

[brittle thorn]

Lol I had that problem...say it isnt your job if the company has dedicated IT staff.. Early stage startups thou may mush up roles and go dev ops... avoid devops roles then if you find them.

[slim night]

yes, I run away from the Ops in DevOps

[summer roost]

A CS associates and a business degree is a whole lot better than nothing. I'd expect you to be able to land a job with that. One thing that's very worth knowing is that the "requirements" in job ads are usually the ideal case, and not actually what they'd settle for. If you're anywhere close to the requirements for a given job, apply. The more jobs you apply to, the better your chances. Brush up on DS&A, and read Cracking the Coding Interview.

[summer roost]

There is a 0% chance that a SWE gets asked to troubleshoot the printer at any reasonable company.

[slim night]

best I could do is go Office Space on a printer

[undone willow]

What’s DS&A? I think I actually have a cracking the coding interview book. I’ll try to look for it later ty!

[summer roost]

Data Structures and Algorithms

[safe loom]

Do you think I should exaggerate what I did during my internships on my resume to make myself look more experimented than I really am?

[smoky quest]

don't lie or make up things

[summer roost]

Paint yourself in the best light you can, but don't lie.

[smoky quest]

You can present things in a nice way, but don't make it such that it does not reflect the truth

[slim night]

People who have been in this field for a while: Do you find that most of your career changes come from knowing someone, or from applying to postings on job sites?

[smoky quest]

it's like lottery tickets. The more you hold, the more chances to win

Knowing people can increase your chances.
But applying also increase your odds. At the end of the day, it's a numbers job

[honest pivot]

Related question: What about job titles? I have an official job title, but my actual responsibilities are more senior. I have been introduced to new employees with a more senior title than my official one. (Actually this annoys me significantly)

[slim night]

so it's not impossible to land a job posted to a site like ZipRecruiter or Dice

[smoky quest]

yes and no.
Everyone knows they are bs, but it has never stopped everyone from trying to get a better title :p
For the purpose of jobs and interviews, what matters is how you fit in the xp and skills. The title will come from there

[smoky quest]

tbh, I have never had a job on these websites or recruited from there.
For CS, indeed and linkedin do probably hold the majority of the market

[slim night]

I've mostly been focusing on Indeed

[smoky quest]

(but they are all aggregating jobs from each others anyway...)

[slim night]

haha, yeah

[smoky quest]

but if the implied question was about getting jobs through application vs connections, the majority remains applications

[summer roost]

Job titles are BS and everyone knows it. I wouldn't sweat it

[slim night]

Yes, that was my question, sorry for not being more clear

[summer roost]

The more senior you become, the more likely your next job comes from connections instead of a general application

[smoky quest]

knowing someone at $COMPANY won't get you the job directly. You would still have to go through the interview regardless. But being recommended means you may get on top of a list or holding more weight

[slim night]

got it

Honestly, the idea of just making 2 to 3 times what I do now gets me tingly

[smoky quest]

and yeah, as jollygeek mentioned, as you get more years of xp, you build a network, and get more people you know, and people who find a good gig will call each others and can bring quite a bit of opportunities as well. Because if you bring more successful/great people, it means your company will do great/better and thus your equity will be worth more. And also it's more fun to work with people you enjoy working with

[slim night]

Yep, I'm still friends with people I worked with 15 years ago

[honest pivot]

However, making good connections in the era of Zoom conferences is proving to be a pain

[brittle thorn]

Lol I have seen a couple of unreasonable ones but yeah if the org is mature it shouldnt be a issue

[smoky quest]

I had a manager who used to tell me: "always be careful about the skills you want to expose"

[summer roost]

I might expect that if the company has 15 employees, but if a company asked me to fix a printer, I'd be applying for jobs

[smoky quest]

( but also given the salaries of IT vs swe, that would be a waste of money for the company)

[summer roost]

(Because I have no idea how to fix a printer)

[brittle thorn]

Miss in person meetups

[honest pivot]

My printer at home displays instructions on a little screen. If those don't fix the problem, then I dunno. We're a tiny company still, but I think the CEO has just fixed the printer himself.

[smoky quest]

there is also an important distinction between helping out and making it your job and duty

[honest pivot]

Absolutely, but as you pointed out, be careful how you help out.

Our engineers don't even use the printer, so I guess that helps keep us out of it. 😛

[summer roost]

One person wearing many hats is a hallmark of small companies, FWIW.

Fewer employees means less specialization.

[brittle thorn]

Good tip lol some managers simply do what is expedient for them which is expected and do bend roles to your skills which can either be good or bad.

[honest pivot]

If you want to learn new skills, it can be annoying to have all your time taken up using your existing ones.

[smoky quest]

it was. You don't want to get stuck in things no one want to do.

But on the other side, you also want to be careful to not fall into the "I am too good to do X". If someone more junior would work late or whatever, I would have no hesitation bringing them coffee/boba or rebooting a printer.
So just bringing that nuance.

[brittle thorn]

Good to bring up the nuance so do what is reasonable within limits. Also note that if you have coding deadlines helping out might get you in trouble if it takes you off the coding task and makes distractions more likely to occur later on.

Have a supervisor know of these distractions if possible and if they can shield you from them

[brittle thorn]

Not too sure of coding Bootcamps but be sure their terms are fair ... I heard of a few that implement Income Share Agreements that maybe one sided...

[safe loom]

Like, how can I turn my master thesis for an IT job on top of my apprenticeship in data science? During my thesis I've mostly done scientific computations, which may or may not be related to data science.

[smoky quest]

One way to go about it is to put some emphasis and highlight the parts that are relevant

[brittle thorn]

Try bringing this up with HR in a nice way if you can it is possible that they have overlooked the growth in the scope of your job when you got in versus today

[slim night]

But remember that HR works for the company not you

[brittle thorn]

You can leave lol

[slim night]

HR is not your friend

leave the chat?

[brittle thorn]

Leave the company with unreasonable HR

[slim night]

sure, sure, but it should be known HR is there to protect the company not the employees

[brittle thorn]

I had to complain to HR to get a Senior Dev title lol

Sometimes it works... it depends on the company

Be nice and friendly

[summer roost]

If HR has helped you, it's because helping you was the best option for the company. HR's job is to help the company, not you.

That's not to say that HR can't be a valuable resource, just that you should understand what you're dealing with when you involve HR.

[smoky quest]

corollary of that is to make sure the company's interest aligns with yours if you need something. Ie. make it their problem (sort of)

[honest pivot]

Our company is 15 people. HR and the CEO and my boss are the same person. I will bring it up soon, but I'm preparing my CV first.

[primal latch]

Extremely sorry to disturb, but is there a channel for beginners?

[honest pivot]

Scroll down and there are lots of channels for help in individual topics. Otherwise there's #python-discussion , or you could jump into a help channel for more individualized help.

Also check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[brittle thorn]

Good luck

[honest pivot]

I don't think he's being malicious, but just indecisive. It would be his first time actually promoting someone, and I think he's afraid of the imbalance it will probably create. But he probably doesn't recognize the problems being caused by his hesitancy.

[vast shoal]

You can ask beginner questions in #python-discussion, or you can open your own help channel, see #❓｜how-to-get-help.

[solid robin]

Should i go to school, college and graduate or quit school and self taught computer programming + I am from a verry small state from India so most jobs required degree qualification

[thick juniper]

So if that's the case, how do you get into a career (and not just a job) from the outside? You said earlier it was playing on "extreme mode", but even if the only answer is 'skill', that at least focuses our attention where it needs to be.

[thick juniper]

Yeah, that's definitely a lot. I'm sorry. Someone might have already told you this here, but if you want to send a depersonalized resume in an image format to this thread, they can be really helpful critics.

[safe loom]

I have a French one and I can blur out my personal information

[gilded valley]

if you're doing 10+ apps a day, and haven't been invited to do any psychometric tests or programming tests, then my guess is that there's something about your CV that is putting off employers. At that point it might be worth just paying for a CV review service

[thick juniper]

I'm a novice, so I shouldn't (and won't) give you any advice, but when more people are around, you should send it over and they'll help. Many even have experience in Europe. C'est simple, non? Good luck!

[gilded valley]

actually - I'm assuming this is for a junior position - but I might be mixing you up with someone else

[safe loom]

Yeah it's for a junior position as a data scientist

[buoyant seal]

it sounds a bit weird though. in terms of.... 10 apps per day? What is their size/complexity that they can be done that many in one day?

[gilded valley]

10 apps per day seems perfectly reasonable to me. I was doing similar amounts when looking for internships

If you're applying in France, it's certainly possible that what they're looking for in junior hires is just vastly different to the UK/US

[safe loom]

This is how it looks like

[safe loom]

I'm browsing several job boards and part of it is due to pressure from my parents who urged me to apply at many jobs as I could, even if I can't stand some of the companies I'm applying for.

[gilded valley]

I would suggest looking for someone to review/build your CV with you. In the UK they cost ~£100 for this kind of junior low-level stuff from what I've seen, I imagine France has people offering similar services for a similar price range, and it's well worth the investment off 200eur if it helps you find a new job

[buoyant seal]

perhaps you scare people with having too........ wide resume?
Your resume claims you being specialists:
Data Scientist
Machine Learning dev
Backend dev
Frontend dev
Pipeline engineer

perhaps to try crafting more specialist specific resumes

[true harness]

the text boxes under 'Competences' are not all aligned

[safe loom]

Yeah I wanted to do a "general" resume considering crafting each one of them would take too long (did that using Affinity Publisher). I could've done a resume app using a JS framework but it would take too much time over my hunt so...

[dense mesa]

I think you're not getting responses because it's too graphically intense

[buoyant seal]

You chose to have Data Science as main specialization
Perhaps you resume should have how you used not related to it specializations to fulfill goals in Data Science?
somehow moving accent from other fields to DS, showing how they contribute to you being good in DS

[safe loom]

Too much info you mean? In any case I never know how companies read the resume. Do they view it through an iframe, is the PDF going straight to their mailboxes?

@buoyant seal Like putting more emphasis over my skills in data science (ie. CV) instead of side skills that could be useful but not connected to the main title (ie. webdev for model inference)

[buoyant seal]

yes, putting more emphasis would be the correct phrasing
to the field you chose as main one in resume

[dense mesa]

I'm not sure what the status quo for resumes is like in France, but I'd recommend using https://latexresu.me and just sending a pdf

Because as it is, it does not look like a professional document

[safe loom]

I've been reading a lot of resources on resume crafting for the past 5 years and neither the books or the websites can agree on originality and visual impact over professionalism and the common structure.

So you often see HR and recruiters' interviews about how they skip resumes because they look "boring" and "cliché". Same as cover letters: most HR don't bother with it while some books recommend to do something "original"

[dense mesa]

Right, but if you're not getting responses, it may be time to change it

[dense mesa]

https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/

France is going to have different attitudes towards it than I'm familiar with in the UK, but having a sleek and professional resume isn't boring, it gets the job done without adding unnecessary "fluff" no one needs

[safe loom]

That's true. And now that I have some experience as a data scientist when I was a wageslave I can put that on the table.

During the past 5 years I had to find a job when I graduated from a master degree that is pretty much useless unless I went to a PhD. I went through a huge crisis back then

[dense mesa]

Just make a 'boring' resume and see the responses you get

What was the degree?

[safe loom]

Masters in Earth Sciences (Planet Science speciality)

In a sort of "prestigious" university (the quotations marks are here because it was the first year of the university and I had to do my lectures scattered across multiple Parisian universities)

[dense mesa]

Do you have a data science qualification?

[safe loom]

Yeah, from a 7 month program + 1 year of apprenticeship

[dense mesa]

Then it's likely the resume, not the experience

[safe loom]

Ok, let's try a more professional approach (also the models on latexresume and overleaf don't ask for a profile picture which is great)

[vapid jay]

What's up everyone. Was curious if any of you freelance? And was also curious how much python you learned prior to feeling comfortable freelancing?

Trying to determine what my skill level needs to be prior to putting myself out there for work..

[vast shoal]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[gritty rivet]

The best way to understand what skills are in demand is to look through listings on UpWork or whatever. If you feel like you can do something, go for it, and if not, you'll know what you need to practice. Without existing reviews or a strong portfolio you'll need to start out with very low prices but once you have had some customers you can ramp up from there

[vapid jay]

awesome advice. appreciate the insight!

[marsh wind]

French often like flashy resumes, several columns, icons, picture is must...

[marsh wind]

This one is a bit of an overkill I agree. But not far from French standard

[vapid jay]

And with the price of college or university... for half the price there are bootcamps where I can get a certificate... wouldn't that weigh the same as going to a college

[ivory sluice]

no

you are a high school/secondary school student, correct?

[vapid jay]

Last year of high-school

[ivory sluice]

and what country are you in?

[vapid jay]

Us

[gritty rivet]

No, definitely not. A bootcamp is a substitute for a degree if you really can't do university, but the majority of successful bootcamp grads I know at least have some kind of degree, no matter what the field. So yes it's possible to do fine without a degree but it's a lot harder over the long run, especially when you think beyond the entry level to your future career as a whole

It's also a good idea to build a portfolio and get work experience as you can, but if there's anyway you can work towards a degree at your age, it will certainly pay off

[ivory sluice]

employers have a vast pool of candidates with university bachelor's degrees. you put yourself at a big disadvantage by not having one.

a boot camp is a good transitionary tool or bridge for people that already have degrees and work experience in another field, that's really what they are most valuable for imo. they're not replacements for bachelor's degrees by any means

[vapid jay]

Well that's tuff cause college or university is not in my sights at all oof

[ivory sluice]

community college? then you can research ways to apply and transfer to your state university

[vapid jay]

It's the fact of what a college is .. I'd rather not take a English class, social studies, physics .. I have no interest in anything else I'd rather program and develop things ... putting my self it debt just to drop out isn't really worth anything

[ivory sluice]

true, it's not worth much if you drop out. but why go in with the mindset that you're going to drop out? that's just setting yourself up for failure and preemptively walking thru that door

read thru some old messages in this channel (search college in:careers-discussion or similar) as this topic comes up quite often and you'll see the reasons for why seniors in this industry strongly recommend a college degree if you are at all in a position to obtain one

and student loan debt is manageable, if you are frugal about your school choices and living choices

[jade anvil]

helu

[vapid jay]

If I have 6 other classes weighing me down it's not worth the debt ..

[ivory sluice]

? classes eventually end. the aim is to graduate in 4 years

not stay in school forever

[vapid jay]

OK in 4 years of English classes .. where are they when looking at python documentation

[ivory sluice]

you can also overload coursework and take winter and summer classes and graduate in 3 years if you commit, but if you're not a disciplined student i don't recommend it

[ivory sluice]

are you under the impression that you would have to take 4 years of english classes in college? that's not the case if you're in a CS degree

that's not the case for anyone really unless you're an english or english literature degree

[vapid jay]

Why take English at all

[ivory sluice]

you'd complete all those "general education" requirements within the first 1 or maybe 2 years of college

i don't think i took any english classes in college, maybe 1 writing one

you're free to not pursue a college degree of course, but you are then knowingly handicapping your own future by doing so if you want a career in software engineering

[vapid jay]

Which country are you from??

[ivory sluice]

US

and disclaimer, i am not a software engineer

[steady rover]

Hi I want to ask that I am a Business student so Will lernning python be helpful

[vapid jay]

In which field are you?

[ivory sluice]

accounting/finance

[vapid jay]

well dang guess i picked the wrong career choice oof

[kind oar]

what's your job?

[ivory sluice]

any career you pick will likely benefit from or require further education, whether that's a bachelor's degree from a college/university, or trade school

[ivory sluice]

i supervise AR & make a bunch of ad-hoc reports to support our dead and unmaintained accounting system

[vapid jay]

that shouldnt be the case .. that prohibits any hobbyist and that sucks.

[ivory sluice]

a hobbyist by definition is not meant to be be compensated as if it were a career

[kind oar]

interesting that you're a mod here given your background, I thought mods would only be python people, but guess not.

How is year closing going? done yet?
How many YoE?
What's the system?

[ivory sluice]

i use python for those reports
and the system is in-house made written in foxpro

[vapid jay]

if you have a hobby making blankets .. you can sell them and thats a career isnt it ?

[ivory sluice]

no i wouldn't say that. that's more a combination of craftsmanship and potentially entrepreneurship

it's very unlikely you'll make a living doing that. i actually do know people that do this but they are supported by spouses with a more lucrative job

it's side cash/income

[kind oar]

Yikes, in house lol, what size?

[brittle thorn]

Once worked with FoxPro ..the system must be old

[ivory sluice]

yikes indeed.

[brittle thorn]

Ah dead and unmaintained lol

[kind oar]

is it cushy enough that you aren't venturing out? I'm pretty sure that's limiting your progression.

I guess with people like that they'd pay anything to just not have to deal with that mess.

[ivory sluice]

it's not cushy, i am venturing out but it's an expensive effort in terms of time. if i want to properly pivot (and i'm more open to the idea than i was before) i have a lot of work to do

[brittle thorn]

Why not migrate to a new system

[ivory sluice]

we finally are

after 30 years

it literally took the death of the owner/founder of the company for us to finally do it

[kind oar]

you should venture into FP&A or BI, could be useful.

[brittle thorn]

Ah the founder must have been a tightwad having started it from a small entity

[kind oar]

I personally don't like working for small businesses, I think it is way too much hassle, and having an owner/partners above me certainly isn't cool, I like it better when all people are just employees.

[ivory sluice]

i don't recommend it, if you have a choice. i can see it possibly being desirable if you are senior in your career and mesh well with the owners/family and can walk away at any time

[kind oar]

it can be cushy, but public companies are mostly better, more beaurcacy but at least more resources.

[ivory sluice]

if i am to pivot, i'm much more interested in doing back end work. but i have a lot to learn

[kind oar]

I suggest you go into FP&A for a while to actually get some useful business sense

[brittle thorn]

In house dev used to be the norm nowadays there are many accounting packages..

[kind oar]

then after a few years pivot into BI or whatever your interest is.

[kind oar]

I hate legacy systems, let alone an inhouse one lol.

[brittle thorn]

Yes kids stay in school please thank you

[brittle thorn]

You cant but you can do masters, then PHD then Post Doc .. i ended mine with MS units.. diminishing returns after getting that BS degree but if you want to teach at uni you could stay in Uni a long long time indeed

[ivory sluice]

don't scare off the children that are reluctant to even go to community college

[brittle thorn]

Lol not my intention but yeah stay in school at least get that BS in any field of study

[brittle thorn]

I worked with them most of my career

[marsh wind]

Postdoc isn't something that really counts as staying in school really....not even phd, if you think about it

[brittle thorn]

Depends on how we define staying in school..yes it is research oriented unlike undergrad and part of masters but it is still being in school and having to work for grades and credits.

[marsh wind]

Well depends on definitions a bit. My définition of staying at school is pursuing a degree in a form of following courses,having exams and etc

Which ends after Masters in most places, phd is not about working for credits

[orchid night]

Does anyone here work in Data Engineering?

[brittle thorn]

It could depend on the program thou some Doctorates like that of Medicine and Law has coursework...the sciences yes

You can fail a PHD if you dont finish your research within an a certain time period or residency requirement and a friend did lol. He also had some conventional coursework too in his engineering program

[dense mesa]

Don't ask to ask, what do you want to know?

[orchid night]

I wanted to know how I can I break into Data engineering I’m working as a coop SWE and wanted to switch into DE

[gritty rivet]

DE is just a specialty within SWE so, yeah, why not?

[kind oar]

learn the required skills (check job posts) and apply, internal transfers are also always easier so network with the data engineering team and maybe they'd offer you a job once you graduate if everything alligns.

I'm currently working on querying from a DB from a shitty DBA, a lot of repeated info, no tables for unique keys, datetime stored as varmax.

so do the opposite of what this guy is doing and you will be good.

[orchid night]

I’m proficient in python and maybe a little immediate with SQL and also been working with db2 and I’ve been working data more and I find mother data field more interesting than swe

[kind oar]

you probably should focus more on SQL and another scripting language (powershell for example if you go the azure path).

[desert radish]

I've been working in HR analytics for a few years and am looking to explore different subfields of analytics. I was wondering if it would be best to stay at my current company and apply internally or to try something new altogether

[kind oar]

if the field you want to explore exist internally then that is better, learn a bit and then jump ship when you want.

internal people will be more forgiving to the learning curve, and you probably already have the connections.

[desert radish]

thanks! that makes sense, and I'll probably give it a shot

[orchid night]

What about python libraries and data softwares kafaka

[slim night]

For people who have been SWE for a few years, do you find yourself switching companies often?
What is your average time period of being in a position before moving on/up?

And, do you feel any sense of guilt or does the company try to guilt trip you?

[brittle thorn]

Why is that DBA still there

[kind oar]

Those might be used for ETL/ELT, but SQL and DB theories are the back bone, focus on those.
also the flavor of the tools used differs from a company to another, so you probably want to focus the things that are consistent (SQL)

[gritty rivet]

The guilt-tripping bit is a common practice at toxic companies across all fields and is a sign that you're right to leave

[orchid night]

What kind of things should I still consistent with SQL

[brittle thorn]

It is true even as a customer or an employee.. set your boundaries or you can be perpetually exploited

[orchid night]

like schemas and UML's?

[gritty rivet]

As far as that goes, it's also not field-specific I would say... Generally a series of lateral moves are not a great sign, but if you find that you can keep moving up by moving out, then nothing wrong with that

[kind oar]

idk, idc, I'm just doing a shitty freelance shit, the client is in sweden, the DBA names seems indian, doesn't work on the same time zone, and for some reason the azure data center is in US west, who knows why.

I've been running the query testing things out, was slow as fuck (7 hours to get a the unique list of stores names since he doesn't have a table for it (6M rows only, unique 28 stores).
Told the client, she asked the DBA who told her that I didn't optimize the query, I go to azure (somehow I had access on the email they gave me lol, turns out, he isn't assigning enough resources to the PoS transactional DB).

and the fucker told her 6m rows is HUGE lol.

literally choosing one column only and doing group by to get unique list (seems column is unindexed too )

[summer roost]

In 12 years as a professional dev I've changed to another company 3 times, and done an internal transfer to a different team within a company once.

[kind oar]

idk man, I'm neither a SWE, DE, or a DBA, so you probably should ask in a forum that works in those.

[orchid night]

also I want to work in DE for year and get into data science which is my plan path or is there way to go to straight into data science without a masters?

I see a lot companies that requires master just to get a entry level data science position

[kind oar]

you can do data analysis into DS, most "DS" jobs are actually DA anyways lol.

[slim night]

If it's not too personal, can I ask what reasons you had for switching companies/teams?

[orchid night]

dont analyst get paid between 50-60k a year?

[gritty rivet]

It depends, it's just a title... I've seen people called analysts who really do engineering and vice versa, generally paid accordingly

[summer roost]

Different reasons for each of them. Sometimes leaving a toxic manager/reporting chain, sometimes for better pay, sometimes for a role that better aligned with my interests and goals

[kind oar]

idk, depends on country, city, your background, company size, and what you're actually doing.

[slim night]

all perfectly reasonable and what I was expecting. ty!

[orchid night]

I want to do the data pipeline sorta stuff with a bit predictions and analysis

[kind oar]

not in the field, but i think in most big companies pipelines are done by the DE team and analysis is done by DA and prediction is either DA or DS.

[brittle thorn]

Stay at least 3 to 5 years if the company is good or stable and longer if you enjoy it. The longest I have stayed in a company under various roles is 7 years and the shortest is one year. Moving around to better opportunities is natural and part of the free market. The employers already exercise much control of labor so dont feel so guilty exercising your right to change jobs as long as it isnt too frequent and give them enough time to find a replacement or turn over tasks.

[orchid night]

my current company has around 10-15k people and has the DS teams to do predictions but im looking for a small - mid size company for a full-time position before I graduate. I can't stand the corporate environment there is way to many ego/arrogant people here and the corporate process is terrible

is it okay to jump from company to company after 1-2 yrs?

[brittle thorn]

Yes if you can get a better job elsewhere

Do try to leave in good terms

[kind oar]

get ready to be a yes man then.

[stiff latch]

What proportion approximately of full-time programmer hires these days are holders of Bachelor's degrees in CS? Guesses?

[orchid night]

I believe in leaving in good terms I just don't believe in company loyalty since companies aren't loyal to their employees

[orchid night]

35%

[stiff latch]

is that a guess?

[orchid night]

yes lol

[orchid night]

what do you mean? aren't mid size companies better then bigger companies

[frozen gate]

Stack Overflow has a survey they do that finds out statistics on programmers

[kind oar]

yes, but managers also have more power there, so if they don't like you it can get rough.

[orchid night]

I think it goes the same way for corporate companies. and mid size companies are more automated

[brittle thorn]

Big corps can have bad corporate culture if you cant stand the culture it is better to leave..Maybe they will change after enough employees leave but even if they dont it is feedback that they shouldnt ignore at their own peril. Unfortunately many do have that culture by choice to keep labor cost low by encouraging job attrition if they can easily replace those who leave. If your co workers are leaving or considering leaving too then you might consider that as a reason to leave.. they might turn over the tasks they do to you lol

[orchid night]

im just co-op at my company and have been for 6 months I can already see how corporate culture can not make sense and can be very toxic at times with their fragile egos

[brittle thorn]

Ah leave ...stress can have adverse health effects

[stiff latch]

Imnot are you doing a CS degree atm?

[orchid night]

yes and I graduate in the fall

[stiff latch]

what's a cs degree like these days i wonder ... did you specialize in anything at all?

[orchid night]

but I feel it would be like this at any company maybe not as bad but still a tiny bit

[stiff latch]

Plus it doesn't hurt to have some exposure to bad environments for the sake of life experience generally

you know, "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger" -- unless it's so toxic as to be demoralizing and depressing of course

[lilac ridge]

how would u start an assignment report? i have to describe what my project was and what i had to achieve success

[orchid night]

im studying computer science and engineering technology w/ concertation in cyber security

also its accredit by the ABET program

[brittle thorn]

Not at all I have been to good small and medium software dev corps

[stiff latch]

beefteki just a general piece of advice -- the whole secret of writing is REWRITING. So just start by slapping a bunch of stuff down in any order, notes, parts of sentences etc. Then you start rewriting it

[lilac ridge]

thank you

[brittle thorn]

My uni also has ABET

[orchid night]

what type of companies would you prefer

[lilac ridge]

should i use this for uni?
or is it cringe?

[orchid night]

I feel ABET adds little extra to the regular cs degree

[lilac ridge]

their watermark i mean

[stiff latch]

it's worse than cringe, it's Greek = )

just kidding

[lilac ridge]

wouldd u recommend for or against using that?

[stiff latch]

I'm sorry I cannot advise you on the watermark and such things

[lilac ridge]

it needs to be 2 page pdf where i describ my project but i was thinking of not writing an essay, just acouple points

[stiff latch]

Can you get some advice from prof, or other people who have submitted successful documents?

[lilac ridge]

ok thenks

[orchid night]

if I had to redo it all over again I wouldn't major in cs I would probably major in Electrical Engineering or Mechanical Engineering

[brittle thorn]

Small and medium if you want to have more bargaining power. In big corps you are less valuable if you are one of so many

[dense mesa]

I do traditional engineering, trust me it isn't as nice

[gilded valley]

how can you say it isn't as nice if you haven't also done CS?

[stiff latch]

one of my relatives was a Civil Engineer -- didn't like it much but made a shit load of money and retired early eheheh

[gilded valley]

grass is always greener.

[dense mesa]

I studied CS for a number of years and have taken modules as part of my engineering degree

[brittle thorn]

Moo

[chrome blade]

I had a question, is it true that you should have cs in your classes 11th and 12th to be able to do cs engg?

[orchid night]

I want to go to a company where I can just develop my skill and learn new ones and not have added responsibilities

[chrome blade]

like can one with no knowledge about it go into that field?

[balmy mural]

Majority of the people who studied with me started without having had cs at school level

[brittle thorn]

Small and medium or startups then

[chrome blade]

is there a way to know if I would enjoy cs engg before doing it? what if I regret it later on coz I do not have much knowledge.

[orchid night]

I heard start ups are toxic and require you to do everything since they so small

[brittle thorn]

But you learn

[orchid night]

you can do self projects and learn from them before you go to school or go into your career

[orchid night]

what about mature small - mid size companies

[chrome blade]

self projects like...how do I start? Like where can I find all of this? (I am sorry I know I kind of sound like a noob since I barely know anything)

[brittle thorn]

Ok if you can get in been to a couple

[stiff latch]

another relative of mine has a small company and wanted to hire me as a coder even though I've never gotten all the way through any beginning course or book - he said "programming is easy you just find stuff that works on the web and paste it in" -- he thinks i'm smarter than I really am = )

[orchid night]

learn python which is great basic programming language and can take you far and watch youtube videos to get you started once you have the basics down start building projects

[lilac ridge]

is it a good thing to say in my report that the first thing i thought of doing in order to complete the project was to search for similar apps on the web and get a hold of some ideas from them?

[orchid night]

is it harder to get into a smaller and mid size companies ?

[balmy mural]

I would recommend starting with learning the language, something like https://automatetheboringstuff.com/
From there you should try some projects in different fields to see what you enjoy. Try making a small website. Try some machine learning. Try making a small game.

[chrome blade]

ohh I get it...

[stiff latch]

omg beefteki I have no idea about that ... I suggest you write a first rough draft and then read it to some experienced person

[chrome blade]

ohh, I will definitely check it out. Thank you so much!

[lilac ridge]

anyone knows?

[orchid night]

I learned a lot from doing projects and you really get a feel for how development works

[stiff latch]

just write a complete draft, totally rough, and discuss it with experienced person, then carry on

[chrome blade]

ooo, how long does it take for you to learn python? or is it just all about practice?

[dense mesa]

You're not in the right channel for this

[brittle thorn]

Not at all lol

[orchid night]

it was about practice and I was already using it in school but I actually learned more outside school from my projects. in my experience self projects gave me the practice and allowed me to step out of my comfort zone and allowed me to put something on my resume for later

[orchid night]

tell me where is the best place to look for these companies lol

[dense mesa]

This channel isn't the best place for beginners, go to #python-discussion and ask to be linked to the resources.

[chrome blade]

ohhh, thanks a lot!

[chrome blade]

oo okiee, that'd be better.

[orchid night]

@chrome blade you can dm me if you want more advice im self taught and learned from school so ive been through it all lol

[brittle thorn]

The job boards ... but if you live in a tech hub they may be there

[chrome blade]

sure I will if I need to know more!

[orchid night]

what job boards because tbh I hate indeed and glassdoor they not really useful

[brittle thorn]

It is hit or miss and sometimes you get lucky...

Be patient

[orchid night]

i think the whole applying and interviewing process is a hit or miss and is very broken lol

[brittle thorn]

It is indeed

[orchid night]

especially the coding challenges

i went to 8 interviews some were jr development positions and some were co-op positions but it took 8 to find one co-op position -_-

[brittle thorn]

Some go to more interviews than that ask around lol

[orchid night]

tbh I got one of my interviews through a discord server that had a recruiter in there lmao

[river spade]

reallu?

[orchid night]

yeah really lol

[river spade]

y*?lol

[brittle thorn]

Have a LinkedIn if you dont already have one

[orchid night]

i do but i dont think it really helps

[brittle thorn]

It does once you have xp

[orchid night]

oh wait nvm i know now lmao

[brittle thorn]

Job experience

[orchid night]

how many years?

[brittle thorn]

Most look for 1 to 3 years

Until then you might have some difficulty so take whatever comes and think long term

[orchid night]

I just want a full-time job im getting paid pretty good for a co-op right now but I want a full-time before graduation

[brittle thorn]

I think you are in good shape so dont worry too much and try to graduate

Many first jobs do suck

[orchid night]

tbh im being take advantage at my current company as co-op because they having me being a application sme for a server migration all sorts of stuff like that and not getting paid more and not being full-time status ive to to a friend that works in another department and his talking to his manager to see if I can get over there for full-time status and pay

[brittle thorn]

Ah the economy does suck a bit now too covid and all but it should get better

[orchid night]

but there is a lot job openings since people are quitting their jobs

[brittle thorn]

The jobs suck lol

[orchid night]

but its full-time status and salary unlike my co-op position lol

[brittle thorn]

Part time not too bad if you can do freelance on the side or pursue further studies

[orchid night]

honestly this going to sound bad but im working full-time and going to school full-time lmao

so im co-oping 40hrs a week and taking 15 credit hours

[brittle thorn]

Ah do graduate at least and keep your sanity and health

[orchid night]

work full-time and went to school full-time last semester and was all about no life and scheduling consistently

[brittle thorn]

Had experience for part of my academic career as a working student so I can imagine.. Try to find a less demanding job while at uni

[orchid night]

I always worked part-time before I had my co-op

but I think since im already working/student fulltime I can handle a full-time job now

[brittle thorn]

Your priority should be to graduate if you feel you can handle it and graduate then go ahead

[orchid night]

but when I graduate i have to compete with another graduates

[brittle thorn]

Dont feel so insecure focus on whatever makes you unique or different ... surely you have talents

[gusty wave]

guys any advice on how i can find my favourite field of programming?

[orchid night]

I don't feel insecure but more as I feel ready to be full-time employee and have the skills to do so

[brittle thorn]

You are then better positioned than many who only go full time after graduation

I think you will turn out fine.. in the long term

[orchid night]

that is my goal I want to be better than those who just graduate with little to no experience

I read and heard a lot about cs graduates with high gpa's but can't code to save their lives

[brittle thorn]

Ok all fine take care of your health thou and try not to burnout..My brother did take a leave of absence at Uni after burnout at uni and he didnt have your load..but he recovered and is happy in his career.

Dont worry too much I think you are ok

[orchid night]

I did burnout at the end of the semester and it was a lot to adjust to cooperate env while having 2 labs a semester

im more trying to figure out what type of company is best for me

[brittle thorn]

Ah expected lol

[lime gull]

Hei dere

[orchid night]

corporate is full of memes lol

[brittle thorn]

Try not to burn out again if possible

[slim night]

that was my previous laboratory job before my current one! incredibly toxic and the pay was abysmal, even for lab work

[brittle thorn]

I had job burnout but after graduation and recovered too ...do try different jobs and companies to see what roles fit you

[stiff latch]

well i hope you're all hardened and tougher now Mighty!

[orchid night]

how do I do that without looking like a job hopper

[brittle thorn]

Lol good you left

[stiff latch]

is anyone suspicious of 'job hoppers' nowadays??

[dense mesa]

Nah

[orchid night]

i think thats inviable lol

[brittle thorn]

Stay at least 2 to 3 years if job ok

[orchid night]

hmm i dont know I only have 6 months of industry experience lmao

[stiff latch]

I mean if you quit and look for new job 7 times per year , ok maybe job hopper

[brittle thorn]

Not necessarily if you can find a job that fits

[stiff latch]

"I hate my desk, bye"

[orchid night]

but balancing school and work is terrible lmao

tbh im just looking for entry level job that pays 65-70k a year and move into data engineering or data science in between 1-2 yrs

[brittle thorn]

I have tried that then decided to focus on studies

Take a less demanding job

[orchid night]

I wanted to graduate on time so I decide to do both and I was tired of working retail so thats what drives me to keep going

[stiff latch]

if you finish your degree then are willing to start at the bottom, then your future will be fine, barring any unusual bad luck of course

[orchid night]

also my program requires me to do 3 co-op rotations but recommends to take a semester offer while doing a co-op rotation

[brittle thorn]

I graduated on time too unlike some of my peers... focus on graduating then things should be ok but yes luck does play a role

[stiff latch]

increase your overall odds by jealously guarding your health!

[orchid night]

my health is okay its just my social life takes a toll because im unable to go out as much

[brittle thorn]

Lol I didnt and paid for it later in life

[slim night]

have you considered becoming an extreme introvert? (j/k)

[stiff latch]

ah the social life question ... difficult to discuss but so important

some need more society than others

[orchid night]

hmmm I think for my last year of school i think so lol

im more of a productive person so I like to have moderate social life but if im getting consistent texts/messages then I cant get anything done

[brittle thorn]

I didnt go on dates or parties at Uni so i might be one

[orchid night]

thats mostly the business majors lol

[brittle thorn]

Mental health is also important lol

[brittle thorn]

True lol and I even got on the Deans list such dork

[orchid night]

it is but I learned to balance things out and took in count for the cost of opportunity

I never got deans list and I always had a 2.9 gpa because im a bad test taker but was good on homework and projects

[brittle thorn]

Good lesson I learned that much later in life

[orchid night]

I was once a business major and I take for granted how much free time I had back then

[brittle thorn]

Lol im the reverse

[orchid night]

how did you make deans list then 🤔

also have 1-2 labs every semester

last semester I had 2 labs they were so annoying because they were so time consuming

[brittle thorn]

I didnt expect it it just happen lol very good at test and was a bit less lazy that time

[vapid jay]

Just like we have a good Python server over here... Are there such good servers for java?, currently I have started with Java so...
You can DM me joining link

[orchid night]

bro i fly through my coding assigments

when it comes to coding I really dont have a hard time

[brittle thorn]

My undergrad was in Chemistry but we did have a computer programming subject too and lots of maths...so tests seemed to carry the weight more

[brittle thorn]

Good then so dont fear too much

[orchid night]

i had one math class and if we went below a C in one test its game over you done with the class

[orchid night]

its just the interview process man its broken -_-

[brittle thorn]

Its also broken for most and i feel you had to go through several interviews too like you for some jobs

[orchid night]

I went through 8 just for my one co-op -_-

[brittle thorn]

Make a start up or freelance if you hate interviews

[orchid night]

thats my goal i want to escape the corporate env and start my own thing

[brittle thorn]

I had fun freelancing for part of my career

[orchid night]

i see how jobs make people hate their lives and make them work a job they hate for majority of their lives

[brittle thorn]

I had my own Library Database Conversion gig for 9 years and did freelance software dev for several small firms

[brittle thorn]

That shouldnt be the case lol

[orchid night]

you never were actually employed somewhere as a regular employee?

[brittle thorn]

Oh I was

Several firms

Sometimes I had a full time job and 2 to 3 sidelines lol

[orchid night]

RIGHT but its so I want to escape and not be like that

[orchid night]

Jesus bro how did you manage all of that lol

[brittle thorn]

Right now im freelance and will not go full time until after pandemic ends. Yeah i did slow down after health issues

But not after saving up

[orchid night]

so what do you do now then

[blazing glen]

yo

[orchid night]

WORD I FELT THAT lmao

[brittle thorn]

Money buys freedom if you are thrifty

If you can save enough and invest while young you will be better off

[orchid night]

I want to work a job for 5yrs and save to start my own thing

Also I’m careful of the golden cuffs

[brittle thorn]

Try your own startup some do that after or even while in college. Your own thing need not be capital intensive if it is a service

The library database conversion service lol was a zero capital thing and it paid well for effort put in

[orchid night]

I was trying to do that but then I got my co-op so I had to stop but I do have two academic research papers coming out cover open source intelligence

[brittle thorn]

Ah one paper is bad enough lol

But as a student I did enjoy writing papers

Maybe in the future you can resume whatever was on pause

Try to find a niche thing that the big players ignore

[orchid night]

Well they getting published though and present though lol

[brittle thorn]

Good lol I have published stuff too in a Physics Journal and it used Python

[orchid night]

Wouldnt that be data engineering

[brittle thorn]

The golden cuffs become an issue if you have a family to support... stay single until stable

[orchid night]

This is why used python everyday lol

[orchid night]

How would I know if I’m stable though 🤔

[brittle thorn]

Can be the library data conversion service did deal with data and a great deal of cleaning and mapping...lol

[brittle thorn]

Only you can tell if you feel you can support a family ..that will also depend on how much you are going to spend versus how much you earn. Be sure to have a cash buffer at hand for emergencies ...the more the better

[slim night]

Do you mean library as in a code library?
And "conversion" as in an API-like thing?

[brittle thorn]

A library like the one with books

[orchid night]

Do you mean like a big self project 🤔

[slim night]

Ohhhh, so hard copy to digital?

[brittle thorn]

I have expertise with Library Data Formats

[slim night]

So upgrading an old data system to a new one?

[orchid night]

What about early 20s and seeing somebody steady?

[brittle thorn]

MARC, Isis etc...card catalog data

[slim night]

neat, nicely done

[brittle thorn]

Data migration and reformatting

[orchid night]

What about data engineering projects

[slim night]

THat's the kind of work I like to do in VBA

[orchid night]

VBA is still relevant in 2022?

[slim night]

Corporate inertia and the ubiquity of Microsoft keeps it relevant

[orchid night]

My company is leans heavily Microsoft software and suite but don’t use VBA

Most bigger projects are outsource to vendors

[slim night]

Microsoft has been threatening to axe VBA for years now, but they can't seem to get rid of it. I am reading the room and teaching myself Python

[orchid night]

Python is OP 🙌

[slim night]

I have mostly used it to crunch data from scientific instruments that spit out their results in .csv format

"The titrator gives results in .csv format, we need a macro to process those data down to pH, HCO3, and CO3- values so we can import them into the Access database and upload it to the website for the customers to get their results"

[orchid night]

I didn’t even know VBA could be used for that and just used for basic stuff like GUI

[brittle thorn]

Maybe try to focus on a niche it is too broad ..Data Engineering for what sector of industry...have some domain knowledge otherwise many others have probably similar ideas.. lol i know one who thought of the same but no concrete product or service

[slim night]

Yep, .csv files can be opened by Excel and then those data processed by macros

[orchid night]

I figure my development skills can cover most areas and would be transferable

[slim night]

I literally use my scripts every day to take what the instruments spit out and process them to be imported by the office lady to the database

[brittle thorn]

Lol I used VBA macros too one time or another

[orchid night]

I hate VBA macros so much and I had to take programming class in the business and the professor thought she was hot shit and can code better than cs students cause she knew VBA

[balmy mural]

depends on the person and the job. I worked part time during my final year in bachelors and absolutely hated it. Social life took a big hit and I had a lot less time for personal projects

[slim night]

My manager refuses to use the macro I wrote for combining primary soil nutrients with secondary soil nutrients; it's like she's scared of the script

[slim night]

I'm sorry to hear you hate it. I personally enjoy beating data into submission

[orchid night]

But python is so much better to use for data and is very flexible to use I really enjoy working with data but not with VBA lol

[slim night]

Possibly, that's why I'm learning it now.

But if the lab uses Excel to crunch results, then I gotta write VBA macros to make my life easier, y'know?

[orchid night]

You can work with excel with python too

You can can even convert csv files to excel

[slim night]

I hope to, but please remember my coworkers do NOT like or understand coding

They had a system in place before I got there, I abhorred the idea of processing data by hand, so I wrote macros

[orchid night]

Whaaaat coding is fun I’m sorry to hear that

[slim night]

They are biologists and geologists, whereas I come from a physics background

[vast shoal]

I'm sure it is enjoyable. I work with Java on a day to day basis right now and it certainly isn't the most exciting language to work with, but the problems I solve with it are still interesting and stimulating. It would have been better working with sexier language, but that doesn't make the work unfun.

[brittle thorn]

Try to find a differentiator if you want a product or service. If you want check in on freelance sites but competition there is stiff for almost all generic roles

[brittle thorn]

Not everybody is like us

[orchid night]

Ewww that sounds awful having to do

[slim night]

That is exactly what I said! But more diplomatically: "Hey, I know a way to make this easier, can I give it a go?"

[orchid night]

I started to code when I was 15/16 in C#

[orchid night]

I need to try this approach at my job lol

[brittle thorn]

I have a Chem major and published in a local Physics Journal lol

[brittle thorn]

I like C#

[slim night]

I tried C# a decade ago and couldn't wrap my brain around it very well.

[buoyant seal]

C# is relaxation after C++ ;b

[slim night]

Yes, every time I get an Imposter Syndrome attack and feel that "if I can do this, why can't they?" I have to remember people like my coworkers and manager need people like me😉

[brittle thorn]

Ask for a raise lol

[slim night]

I got into C/C++ for messing with Arduino projects, and seeing the direct result of writing code to make an LED blink was very helpful for me

[brittle thorn]

Ah I get that impostor thingy too

[orchid night]

It’s Microsoft version of Java

[slim night]

Yeah, but then my manager would have to do paperwork

[brittle thorn]

Government Lab?

[orchid night]

That’s sounds like fun

[slim night]

For all the things I've done, all the code I've written, all the new things I've taught myself on my own dime, I still get Imposter Syndrome / Dunning Kruger'd by my own brain

[slim night]

Ahhh, fun for me to make her do paperwork? 😀 You are very right

[slim night]

Close, it's a self-funded lab at a public university

[vast shoal]

It's very common in these kinds of jobs.

[slim night]

I feel I am not getting paid enough, which is why I am debating moving to a SWE career

[slim night]

I appreciate hearing that

[vast shoal]

You almost certainly aren't. I have lots of coworkers with backgrounds in physics.

[slim night]

and a math minor!

[vast shoal]

Yeah, that's a big plus too.

[blazing glen]

hi!

[vast shoal]

I'm sure if you brush up on SWE basics, you'll have a strong resume.

For an entry-level job at the very least.

[slim night]

I really appreciate hearing that 😇

I feel like it's maybe a plus that I teach myself this stuff on my own time, as a hobby? I'm not content unless I am constantly learning something new and making something

And with the way Things Are Going Now in the World, I'm really wondering if I should capitalize on my work and switch careers. The idea of leaving the lab makes me sad, though

I have to convince myself the risk is low, that coders/SWEs will always be needed, for me to feel safe in making the change

[frozen gate]

If you like working with data SQL might be helpful too, for pulling stuff from databases

[slim night]

Yep, my aim is to learn SQL next

[brittle thorn]

My career in IT started as a hobby ...back then even while a chem major I did personal projects in Pascal, C that got me noticed by the CS majors such that I was invited to psrtipate as a student volunteer in a uni research project that was a touch screen info kiosk in the 90s that i coded in Visual Basic 3.0 and a library automation project

[slim night]

oh my, I remember Pascal, lol

[frozen gate]

My school was teaching Visual Basic in 2019–they did switch to Python that year

[slim night]

when I took Com Sci I, the language used was Java. I didn't care for it much
Then my senior year, I needed just 1 more credit hour, so I took a Fortran 77 class lol

[brittle thorn]

2019 lol

[slim night]

WHAT a difference in going from Java to Fortran. I got my confidence back and then years later was not afraid of diving into VBA and learning it in 2 months

[frozen gate]

It doesn’t sound like it’s uncommon for STEM majors to pivot into programming

[slim night]

I feel you're right

[smoky quest]

I am gonna preface it by saying it's only a generalization based on my experience and in no way an absolute rule. I am also sure that someone will have a cousin who has a friend who knows someone for whom it was completely different, and that's fine.

Everyone has also different struggles, but the main one I have observed is to catch up on is the abstract reasoning and focus on solving a problem.

• Most self taught will focus on tools and think for instance that knowing javascript/react is all they need to be successful. If you look at the various career ladders available online, you will note the pattern of entry level being handed out well defined and scoped tasks in terms of what to do and how to do it. But as an engineer grow, the tasks become less and less defined. That's one of the hurdle where people would get stuck because they would continue to focus on very specific technical tasks, which would prevent them from thinking about the big picture and go up
• Related to that, I am sometimes more scared of an experienced self taught than a new grad. The newgrad will come to you if something is odd or they don't get it, but often times a self taught will make it work in whatever way they can find and only then come to you. This means sometimes you have to have them redo a lot of work because what they did is way too complex, inefficient or too expensive.
• Also related to that, school will drill into you the scientific method where you can go about analyzing situations. Self-taught do not have that basis, unless they have some background
• While most engineers do suffer to some extent with imposter syndrome, it can get a lot worse with self taught engineers. This means they may hesitate and beat themselves down when others don't even think about it and just go for it.

So if you are a self taught, my main advice would be to continue to learn and focus less on specific tooling and more about what problem you are trying to solve. And finding a mentor.

[slim night]

Interesting insights

[brittle thorn]

Consider a Data Science role than a SWE it might be a better fit... more maths

[slim night]

I hear you, and that might be a path I can take once/if I change careers. I really do love hitting data with a big hammer

[slim night]

To be quite honest, I liked the more "visual" math classes I took for my math minor: linear algebra, vector calculus, diff Eq

I'm not sure how well I'd be able to do a 'pure math' data science job, or even heavy statistics

[brittle thorn]

Ah you can do all that with Matlab or Numpy and Matplotlib

[slim night]

oh, right

[brittle thorn]

Play with the cards you already have it isnt that bad

Fortran...I have seen it used in some open source CFD package still in use so it is still useful

Some companies actually still seek VBA devs too for excel macros

[orchid night]

Whaaaat Fortran is still being used 🤔

[slim night]

A few years ago, when the ACA(?) was being implemented, there was a great need for COBOL programmers. I think it was the ACA...

(ACA = the Affordable Care Act or "Obamacare")

[orchid night]

I thought cobol was outdated by then

And cobol was used in the banking industry

[slim night]

Right, but there was a huge amount of ancient code that ran these ancient systems, and it needed to be brought into the 21st Century

public sector code running databases and systems that hadn't been updated since maybe the '60s or '70s

And all the old programmers who knew those systems either had retired or were retiring

[orchid night]

Couldn’t they just do some code conversion 🤔

[slim night]

I think that's why they needed the COBOL people, to explain old code and help get it converted over

To be fair, I don't know the gritty details as I wasn't really that much into coding at the time

[thick juniper]

Thank you! I'm having a hard time conceptualizing of what you mean when you say that a self-taught focuses on the tools at the expense of the broader problem (perhaps proving your point, not that I doubt it). Do you have an example you can think of?

[brittle thorn]

Was involved in Y2K i migrated some VAX Cobol data to FoxPro in 1999

[thick juniper]

Also, besides being active here, active in open-source projects, and asking questions at whatever job one finally gets, is there another way to attract a mentor? I assume walking around saying, 'Will you be my mentor, pretty please?' isn't the most effective way.

Which also brings me to the basic distinction you originally made, @smoky quest . You made a sharp distinction between a job and a career. What in your mind is that distinction?

Thank you. I know I'm asking a lot.

[brittle thorn]

It has to be two way if possible maybe even mutual mentoring ...there has to be some payoff for the mentor and nonfinancial is best. Maybe if the mentor is interested in Law and you are interested in software dev things will work out.

[orchid night]

Brooo I never heard of these Languages they are to old for me hahaha

[brittle thorn]

Yeah begging for mentorship is ackward some mentoring relationships simply develop over time without asking...be interesting and offer your unique perspective and people might want to talk and mentor you eventually..

[gritty rivet]

There are a lot of articles, podcasts etc. that advocate for very formal kinds of mentoring relationships but it's definitely a lot more comfortable to let it happen naturally. No you don't ask "will you be my mentor" but you might ask someone if they are willing to meet on a certain regular schedule to discuss certain specific topics or whatever it is https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/how-to-find-a-mentor

[summer roost]

Numpy uses some libraries that are written in Fortran.

[kind oar]

SQL is still being used, and it is older than most people here.

[orchid night]

SQL is legendary