career-advice

[half flame]

I have some C/C++ experience from College but I haven't really done anything with it since

[smoky quest]

also note that you are asking very different things. A micro controllers/hw/embedded is completely different from desktop

[half flame]

My boss has asked me to come on to a project that is written in Python so I am getting my hands as dirty as I can right now

[smoky quest]

yeah python is great. It can be used for a lot of different things

[half flame]

Yeah, I should probably explain this better. I am the kind of person who has a hard time understanding things without having a better understanding of what makes that thing work - if that makes sense.

I need to get a better understanding of how computers work at the hardware level before I go on to creating software, that's what I was trying to get at.

[smoky quest]

Why?
Sounds wasteful. It could go very far if you go down to the electronic and physics

[mystic wolf]

i find that really interesting where can i find such information

[smoky quest]

which part?

[gritty dawn]

Anybody got good LinkedIn learning python courses if I want to become a SWE

[thick juniper]

Is it unprofessional to have a GitHub account under a username and not your professional name. So like, imagine Lebron James had a GitHub. Would it be fine if it was www. github. com/TheKing if when you clicked on it you saw it as:

Lebron James
The King

Or should he get a new github that says www. github .com/LebronJames?

Thanks

[gilded valley]

Username is probably fine as long as it's not rubbish. That example would be fine, BernieMadoffFan wouldn't be fine

[shadow bay]

Lol , per your example , “TheKing” is different than “KingJames” , imo

Generally a screen name or “internet handle” is fine , provided it’s appropriate

[frozen gate]

Nothing like 420blazeit69, but your username on discord works fine

[smoky quest]

as long as it's not childish nor without taste

[unreal otter]

As a python developer what was your last work task?

[thick juniper]

Thanks all

[half flame]

I just mean from a computing standpoint, I know some ASM but I'm no expert

[serene kindle]

You could try studying Computer Architecture and Operating Systems courses

Computer architecture is really useful for understanding how computers work

[half flame]

I will look into that, thank you

[smoky quest]

That's still a lot of information to retain and deal with.
Being able to reason and work at the right level of abstraction is a very useful skill.

Knowing asm, microcontrollers or hardware will have zero impact on desktop apps in 99.99% of the cases. If anything, it can make things worse for you because you will be talking with people at the wrong level of information, inundating them with tons of useless information and making it more difficult for yourself overall

It can be useful however to know a bit of OS since you may want to leverage some of their facilities. But again, knowing how each OS implements a specific feature will be irrelevant, even if quite interesting.

That said, don't take what I say too strongly. As everything in life, it's all about balance. So I am extrapolating a lot and not necessarily referring to you specifically

[mystic wolf]

interaction of hardware and software

[keen ibex]

Hey, react/node webdev with 1 year prof exp here. I'm somewhat comfortable with python, but just wondering what common uses it has in a professional setting (what do you do at work for example)? My main goal is to become job ready, but there's tons of paths ranging from datascience, finance, more web, etc.

I'm thinking of whacking out a few projects to stick on my github/CV to futureproof myself a bit + open a few doors.

[clear yew]

I work at a large corp, we use python in a variety of places. Some queue based services for backend processing, a few REST API services and a web app

I maintain a simple django app but we have started to adopt fast API for a few things

[gilded valley]

I work in a data science team at a large corporation. The four things Python gets used for are:

• Actual analysis/data-science work, analysing data and building ml models
• Building REST APIs to expose some product that's built on top of analysis, or just to make life easier for other data scientists within the team, FAST API/Flask for this
• For building dashboards or small web apps, usually Dash sometimes just a full stack Django multi-page app (Dash is a Python wrapper around a ReactJS, you can build custom React components for it. My company really loves it)
• Janky bash-like glue scripts, tying AWS infrastructure together with databases and whatnot

[sleek ginkgo]

Why is it that IT degrees are considered lesser than a CS degree by CS people even if you dont want to become an SWE? I wish to work in IT which means: Cybersecurity/infosec, database administration, NOC/SOC operation, sys admin roles, computer networking, and AWS solutions architecture/cloud architecture. At its most entry level IT is help desk but for some reason CS people seem to think that all IT is help desk, trouble shooting, and turning it on and off. Why do people think this way?

[frozen gate]

I sense at least some of it is “my degree is harder than your degree”-type snobbery because of the advanced math/physics classes they have to take, and only discrete math really matters for programming

[smoky quest]

depends a lot on the materials of the degrees. There is a lot of variance depending on the country, degree, etc.

It also depends a lot on the specifics of the job. For instance, a lot of the IT roles include automating actions based on some tooling. So not that much depth
NOC/SOC operations are also typically handed over a specific set of operations to take and would have to escalate more complex tasks.

cybersecurity/infosec is also very wide and it's difficult to generalize it, but most of the work is preventive and compliance, and not so much about reverse engineering complex pieces of code

[sleek ginkgo]

I am in the USA, attending Rutgers University.

[sleek ginkgo]

Yes.

[smoky quest]

any specific degree?
How do you see your role?

As a rule of thumb, there would be:

• IT person would be hired to maintain the office network and other things. Seen as a cost center
• OPS people would be hired to operate the services
• a SWE would be hired to write the software. That's a lot more complex task, is closer to the money generation part and thus more valuable

Note that many companies are trying to adopt a different model where there are SREs, which are hybrid between swe/ops and focus on the tooling and making it easier to support and scale the services, while the devs are responsible for their own services. Obviously, this is mostly applicable to SaaS type of software

[sleek ginkgo]

I am an Information technology major. I plan on starting in help desk and then either moving into an SOC analyst role or a junior network/database admin role. After that, I either plan on mcing into infosec or solutions/cloud architecture.

[smoky quest]

sounds nice!
Why not skipping the first two steps and go straight for your goal?

[thick juniper]

Go Scarlet Knights! (I graduated back over a decade ago.) How do you like it now?

Do they still talk about the RU screw?

[hearty island]

wrong server sorry sorry sorry

[thick juniper]

Where did you mean to send that? It seemed interesting.

[hearty island]

in a math server

[reef salmon]

Been using Numba for a long time, and been spending the last 2 weeks figuring out CUDA programming with it. Def. makes it easier than using only C++.

[brittle thorn]

Yes very unfair and I heard that too . HR should note and act on that and be more 'human'

We need more worlplace diversirty
..end gender and age discriminatory practices and embrace all ethicities. I maybe idealistic but its better than cynicism.

[half flame]

[frozen gate]

Yeah, I’ve heard of people getting more callbacks after they change their name to be less ethnic

[brittle thorn]

Watch more star trek pls

[frozen gate]

And a story of how a girl married and changed her last name to Gonzalez and the places that called her back for housekeeping positions were shocked that she didn’t speak Spanish (her first name was also a rather common Spanish name like Maria)

[reef salmon]

I mean if the point is woman are not applying to jobs because they feel they don't match 100%, that is a cultural thing that needs adjusted, not so much employer.

I know my wife is looking for a new job, and she won't apply to jobs she is 90% qualified for. Something like that would not stop me, and we discuss it (I would def. go for something if I was at least qualifying 75% of requirements.)

[frozen gate]

Yes, and women don’t negotiate as much for salaries which also doesn’t help

At least nyc and Colorado passed that law stating that companies have to state their expected salary but it doesn’t stop them from having wide ranges

[brittle thorn]

People shouldnt have to do that

[reef salmon]

yeah, that sucks places do that. I work for a place that is extremely diverse.

[smoky quest]

there are also tools like textio to help write better job ads

[brittle thorn]

Dev Ops is a buzxword nowadays

[shadow moss]

several workplaces I've been at have started ripping off names of resumes we initial review

[reef salmon]

DevOps def a buzz word. Basically when I hear that I figure they are talking about Agile, GIT, worflow automation ...ect

[shadow moss]

It's just Candidate #1 - whatever

[reef salmon]

I remember their was a controversy at one of my old companies where they wanted to make job descriptions less masculine, but a large segment of woman in the company pushed back against it.

[ivory sluice]

can you reread your statement ^
what does a "less masculine job description" sound like?
what does it mean?

[reef salmon]

the company wanted job descriptions to use less masculine keyed words as they called them "independent, analytical, competitive" for more feminine words. There were a lot of woman in the company happy over this, but a lot that though it wasn't right. Def. was an interesting time.

[ivory sluice]

which words are the "masculine" ones?

[reef salmon]

independent, analytical, and competitive

[ivory sluice]

oh, those are the masculine ones

and, the "feminine" words proposed were?

[brittle thorn]

But i think it varies er should look beyond letters and see the individual

[reef salmon]

cooperative, collaborative, nurturing...ect. We had a womens group consult our company to help make these changes.

I didn't even hear about it until women in my department started complaining to management.

[frozen gate]

I know MIS degrees vary a lot, since I think some cover DS&A, while others basically teach you excel and call it a day—my degree is in the middle

[ivory sluice]

let me know if you know the name of that consultant(?)

[frozen gate]

I think there’s less variance in what’s taught in a CS degree

[reef salmon]

I can dig around. I remember seeing websites they had linked to for more info (this was like 2+ years ago.)

[brittle thorn]

Seems to be the case and it seems a more mature discipline but it may mean their curriculum isnt as up to date than Info Tech.

[reef salmon]

I did a quick google search to see what I could recall for the sites, and it looks like this is becoming more standard. Even glassdoor.com has some language about it: https://www.glassdoor.com/employers/blog/10-ways-remove-gender-bias-job-listings/

The complaint was that words 'analytical' or 'independent' some of the woman in my department noted were terms that woman need to take back and not be afraid off, and coding them as masculine was taking them away.

[summer roost]

I don't think we should change the qualifications for a job to attract different sorts of people. If the job requires you to be analytical, there's nothing wrong with saying so. Plenty of women are analytical.

[ivory sluice]

at first glance i don't like that article at all. .. but i'm still interested if you're able to find that specific group or company

[frozen gate]

In a way the unrealistically high expectations on entry level job descriptions is meant to weed out those unsure of themselves

I’m still not a fan of entry level jobs wanting many years of experience tho

[summer roost]

women not applying to jobs that they don't meet 100% of the requirements for is definitely an interesting problem, though. Companies treat job ads like wish lists, and candidates need to know that in order to fully participate in the system

[reef salmon]

I think a lot of people are aware of this more nowadays, but it still is a tricky thing. Especially in a culture of GPAs and grades that determine what is success and not success.

Even though once your on the job, all of that stuff starts not mattering more and more.

[brittle thorn]

It makes the degree or letters almost not make that much sense. The idea for degrees at least is to have a quick idea as to what you have studied and specialized in at a glance. It is probably because the field is dynamic unlike well established disciplines in which requirements are set in stone

[frozen gate]

I have to explain what my degree is in so many times, and I basically just end up saying it’s a combination of business and tech

[brittle thorn]

Lol

[summer roost]

GPA matters a whole lot for your first job after school, and very little a few years after.

[frozen gate]

CS doesn’t suffer from that problem

[brittle thorn]

True

[reef salmon]

yep, 2 years in a 3.0 and 4.0 GPA doesnt really matter.

I start started hiring people to work for me, and its def. an interesting experience.

[smoky quest]

Why?
At the scope of a company, an individual is a resource.

[frozen gate]

I think some grad schools want a minimum 3.0 gpa but it looks like they can overlook that in certain circumstances

[smoky quest]

An individual may be nice or even a great engineer, but they can't compete with 10 teams of 5-8 engineers

[reef salmon]

This is an interesting debate. I have seen fortune 100 companies have a whole team of engineers, and they do fast and tight work, but ultimately not sure it actually contributed to anything.

[summer roost]

true, but teams that are monocultures perform less well than more diverse teams.

[reef salmon]

Though that is an issue with companies with a ton of money, and trying to keep smart people, but ultimately not sure what to do with them.

[smoky quest]

that's a completely separate topic though

[reef salmon]

oh 100%. Their is something to be said for specialization vs broad knowledge. You kind of need both people, but I think companies can lean to having a team of engineers knowing kind of only their specialty.

[summer roost]

is it? Perhaps I wasn't completely following, then.

[frozen gate]

I heard there’s a purple squirrel problem in which companies want a candidate like the worker that just left, but the worker grew into their role and took on more responsibilities over time and the company is looking for the end result

[smoky quest]

The context for me is diversity as in race/gender/age/etc, which is not really related to how to manage 20 teams. You can still have 20 teams that are very diverse while having standardized process/tooling/efforts across the company

[summer roost]

that's true, but I thought the conversation was about picking new individual engineers to hire

[reef salmon]

it is fine if we slowly shift to different topics, this is an open discussion on careers. jollygeek also lays down the concept of diversity of thought, which is a related topic.

[summer roost]

yeah, I meant both diversity of background and diversity of thought.

[smoky quest]

I guess the conversation kind of split in multiple directions at the same time :p

[summer roost]

🙂

[reef salmon]

lol, at least it was a bit of a natural growth. Not somebody hop in to saying python architects stink

I actually didn't really dig into programming into a few years ago, and it totally changed my career.

[smoky quest]

That's also why I am a lot more into startups. A very small set of skilled engineers focusing on an interesting problem and have the freedom and trust to do whatever it takes to solve it. But that doesn't scale to 20 teams since you may end up with 25 build systems and languages

[frozen gate]

I think I gave up hope on programming for a few years because of computer virus problems but I got encouraged to switch back because my school highly encourages accountants to learn how to program and I was basically “I find programming more interesting, why not ditch accounting and focus on coding?”

[summer roost]

one of the biggest reasons to hire juniors it to bring in more diversity of thought, and help break up team monocultures that have built up over time

[reef salmon]

it depends on the politics, and sometimes large companies have so much money, you can spend a year with you and a couple people doing your own thing without anybody really being aware.

[frozen gate]

Also you can train juniors to do it your way since we won’t know any other ways

[reef salmon]

I basically one day was like, I want to try and move our 30+ year models into python, give me the chance. They were like okay, see what you can do. We had a subsidiary team of programmers (data scientists and engineers) also moving models to python. The subsidiary was a startup, but I quickly realized their models were fundamentally garbage (even though company was spending hundreds of thousands on this a month.)

[smoky quest]

That's another problem with large companies

[smoky quest]

I have seen many teams spinning wheels and worrying about deadlines and over time for no impact or results.
What killed me is when I heard from some important folks that it's not their job to sale and care about what happens to the output

lots of table flipping

[reef salmon]

A startup with too much money is also an issue. Because necessity leads to innovation.

If you from day one have access to insane number of cores from AWS, you may not write efficient code from the start. Your hole design only works by spinning up thousands of cores.

[smoky quest]

depends for whom. The engineers do get to have fun, but at least, the feedback cycle is shorter. It can take years for a large company to notice something is wrong

[reef salmon]

My manager was like you have 3 months to learn python, and write a model that is as fast as theirs, but you have only an 8-core PC to use.

[smoky quest]

actually the main problem with too much money that I have seen is not the number of cores or the performance, but how they hire too many people before figuring out the product market fit. Or how they try to do too much and too broad

[frozen gate]

I’m assuming the leetcode interview process is meant to find people who can write the best code, even if it rarely gets used on the job

[true harness]

not just writing code, how you can explain what you're doing to someone

[smoky quest]

leetcode interview process is supposed to package in the simplest form with the least amount of context, something useful they want to learn about your skills. Ideally it's something you can figure out and isn't an "either you know and you succeed or you don't and you fail"

[reef salmon]

I don't think I have ever had to write a piece of code for a programming interview job yet. Just lucky I guess.

[smoky quest]

it's always an interesting trade off between engineer time vs aws bill

[reef salmon]

AWS was costing like 20k a month I think, plus having a team of like 6 people making avg 150k per person on that team.

[summer roost]

absolutely not at all. It's a way to measure people on a relatively level playing field - all CS majors learn algorithms, so leetcode style problems give you a way to assess how well they learned that material.

[frozen gate]

Tbf they also interview self taught people and people who went to a boot camp to learn programming

[smoky quest]

yep. Pretty standard

[smoky quest]

why would they be interviewed differently?

[summer roost]

they do - those people need to learn algorithms as well, to catch up to the level playing field that the majority are on.

[frozen gate]

I appreciate how programming has resisted official certifications even if something like the CPA exam would also make things easier in a way

[reef salmon]

I think though some of the best career moves are diversification. Like a python programmer working in an accounting team, even if they are not an accountant.

That way you can start learning different parts of business, and gain specialization that way.

[brittle thorn]

https://medium.com/notbinary/people-are-not-resources-13ac7a380f95

[reef salmon]

anybody do some GPU programming? It is kind of fun. Trying to teach myself the ins and outs of it.

[smoky quest]

that's not mutually exclusive. But you can't just treat individually 2000 people

There is also a say about cemeteries being full of indispensable people

That said, it should not prevent companies from being humane and kind

[summer roost]

perhaps the notion that resources exist to be exploited rather than managed is a bigger problem than the notion that people are resources of a company

[smoky quest]

yeah, that would be fair. There is a cynical aspect to it sometimes

[brittle thorn]

The word “resource” gets used, without thought. If you stop and think about it, it’s a terrible way to speak about people. A resource is something you take and use. Applied to people, it carries dismissive and devaluing undertones.

“resource” says “you don’t matter to me”. That’s a toxic dynamic for any human endeavour.

We’re good at detecting these cues and reading the signs. Where the implications of what’s said are at odds with the message being put out, it creates contradiction and dissonance. The response to that dissonance in 85% of cases is disengagement. People are not things so they don’t get managed. In this case, managing is what you do to the environment — to actual resources — and it’s a good environment which enables people to do great work.

Redefining management

That’s not to say people don’t need support. It takes kindness and care to help people be their best selves. When that happens, it’s a win-win for both the individual and the organisation, not to mention the team.

I draw a clear distinction here between “kind” and “nice”. Kind is not always nice.

Kind comes from a place of care and fundamental respect for the dignity of the individual. We usually refer to a person responsible for others as a “people manager”, but the language trips us up and nudges us to manage people as if they were inanimate resources.
To improve the language, perhaps people management should be reworded as “mentor” or “coach”. From this standpoint, a manager would be more like a director in a play or a conductor in an orchestra: making the whole greater that the sum of its parts.

Human Resources is an oxymoron

[summer roost]

A resource is something you take and use.
I'm arguing that that is a poor definition. "Resource management" is a common term. The existence of a resource does not mean that the resource must be exploited.

[smoky quest]

my main issue with that is you could do a s/resource/people/g and it would not have any impact on the cynical aspects. people would then become the next bad word without solving the problem.

[frozen gate]

I think a better solution would be turning every company into worker owned co-ops

[smoky quest]

it wouldn't stop whomever is at the top to screw the others

[summer roost]

"reject capitalism, embrace communism" seems like a pretty big jump from "resource is a dehumanizing word"

[brittle thorn]

It is a general usage and in general resources are things of use to us and we consume resources to live. It is not sustainable to focus on consumption alone look at how unsustainable our corporations have become.. it is probably why we have career burnout we have been used as a resource and not sustainably

[summer roost]

the existence of a resource does not imply it must be exploited. That mindset is problematic.

[brittle thorn]

Yes

[smoky quest]

These are different things though.
Resource is a very generic term. If you want to accomplish some task, you will have some resources in terms of time, people, assets, and so forth. That is not dehumanizing them to say that you have 5 people in your team as a resource to deliver project X.

[summer roost]

sustainable forestry, sustainable fishing, and so on are all ways to utilize resources without consuming them.

[frozen gate]

No matter what your project manager says 9 women can’t deliver a baby in one month

[smoky quest]

The best projects are delivered on time, quality and budget. Burning out people is not a good practice long term

[brittle thorn]

I had my fair share of that and left the corp.. yes

[smoky quest]

exactly! And for them, it meant having to look for a replacement (a few months), onboard them (a few months), and fill up some gaps since they aren't 100% the same as you (a few weeks/months)... That is very costly for the business

Plus they loose all the investments they made in you, historical knowledge you have accumulated and have to start from scratch with the new employee

[summer roost]

and lose out on the team dynamics. You can't replace relationships.

the new person needs to start all over to bond with the team.

and that's not meaningless business lingo. People work better when they trust their coworkers to be looking out for their best interests, and doing their best to cooperate with them.

Your co-workers don't need to be your best friends, but life's a lot more pleasant if you get along well with each other.

[vapid jay]

Dear python community. Why does nobody answer my questions in the help channel? Is it because I'm just another programmer in a sea of programmers? Or is it personal. Please advise, gator

[summer roost]

that's not at all on-topic for this channel.

[vapid jay]

whoops barely noticed

i thought i was in general

[smoky quest]

alignment, culture and motivation are huge factors in results, retention and growth

[summer roost]

I haven't looked at your questions, but as a general rule, remember that everyone who is answering questions here is doing it out of the goodness of their heart. Either you're asking questions that are too specialized for people to know how to help, or you're asking questions that are too involved for people to solve them for free, or you're not explaining the problem well enough for people to know how to begin with helping.

[vapid jay]

oh... I guess I was pretty thoughtless in that aspect then huh. I apologize jolly. I didn't mean to take the server's kindness for granted, I was only half joking though. It seems my more complicated questions are answered and my simple ones are ignored lately. that's all.

[smoky quest]

that could a sign they are easily googleable

[summer roost]

or that they're less simple than you think.

[smoky quest]

you could try https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham's_Law

[summer roost]

things that sound simple can often be deceptively complex.

[vapid jay]

hahaha that's funny

[smoky quest]

it works

[flint lava]

guys how to get people to join ur discord server and retain those members?

[smoky quest]

This is #career-advice and your question seems off topic. You should check #❓｜how-to-get-help to maximize the potential for someone helping you

[flint lava]

ok thanks

[sleek ginkgo]

Honestly, I wish I went to another uni. Yes, we do talk ALOT about the RU screw. I honestly hate it here. Anyways, I am in the ITI program. Not the CS program.

[zinc bronze]

hello

[maiden dagger]

yo I am getting really good at programming, and want to start to grow my portfolio (Not to gain paid work, but to show off to others, and to tell myself im good at it lol, ima get a computer science degree im never gonna free lance),

anyway, anyone got any project ideas, or anything to do, im better at more back end type of strict python stuff
keep in mind im 15, but want to get really good,

even if you suggest I mode onto another language

[solid swan]

I am new to coding complete beginner and I wanna learn python in the correct order what are some helpful websites or Youtube videos to recommend for someone like me. I am looking forward to 2 hours everyday of learning the language of python, my goal is to completely master python over my life!

[vast shoal]

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[vast shoal]

Automate the Boring Stuff is a really good book for complete beginners and it's free to read online: https://automatetheboringstuff.com/#toc
If you prefer to watch video tutorials Corey Schafer's playlist is also really good: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-osiE80TeTskrapNbzXhwoFUiLCjGgY7

[solid swan]

Thank you so much for the help, I will look forward to video tutorials as they might be a more easily demonstrated way of learning.

Me personally I am ready for all the boring learning.

[vast shoal]

Both are good resources, it just depends on how you prefer to learn.

[solid swan]

After I finish all these videos what would you recommend?

[vast shoal]

Pick a project that interests you and implement it.

[solid swan]

Alright thank you

[vapid jay]

how does it work to set an image as a texture in vpython

[silent bay]

#bot-commands

[dark arrow]

!tempban 852248936038400061 2w that is not all appropriate for this community

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @signal crest until <t:1642339495:f> (13 days and 23 hours).

[earnest heron]

Any recommended website where to do python exercises?

[jolly river]

codingbat leetcode py.checkio @earnest heron

[sinful crypt]

??

[sudden yacht]

They have been reported.

[sinful crypt]

Alright.

[smoky quest]

If it targets data science or anything engineering, I would probably pass as the descriptions of your experiences are pretty vague. But that may be because I am not the target and you aren't looking for technical positions

It could

[dim spire]

hi, I am also working towards getting into Data Science what would you say are important skills and experiences to add to my resume? I have a lot of accounting and finance experience. Should my resume be programming heavy?

[gritty rivet]

website, GitHub, resume, LinkedIn etc should ideally all have links to each other so any recruiter who finds one can easily find the others

[dim spire]

@kind oar I graduated in finance, I have 2 years of experience as a stock trader, 4 years in accounting and about a year as a fin advisor

I would like to transition into data science but I am not sure what the right steps might be

I think as a project I might attempt to create an indicator for investments

[smoky quest]

Basically focus more on the technical aspects. So in your experience, you would probably expand more on the technical parts at the expense of the business side and on the skills part, you would put first and foremost the tech parts.
Note that your business knowledge and experience is still very valuable, so I would advice against removing it

[gilded valley]

Do you have a CFA or some other certification? If so, then that alongside some simple generic data science projects in a Github portfolio should get you in the door for a lot of interviews

[smoky quest]

hyperlink is one way to go about it if you don't expect it to be printed. Otherwise you would still have to expand them.
Note also that portfolios and such are complements and not substitute for a proper resume. People will look at your resume first and then your portfolio if they got hooked in, not the opposite

[dim spire]

@kind oar I really like working with data and programming/data science seem like a good fit. I am currently working but my plan is getting a Data Science bootcamp certificate and hopefully find a paid intership within a year

[gilded valley]

if you've already got a BSc and 6 years of experience, doing an internship seems very weird

[dim spire]

from my research even interns in data science make more than any of my employments

[smoky quest]

the automation part is great but also frustrating because I have no clue about how you did it or the scope

Basically I read it as "I did something that was awesome". Cool story but I still have no clue about what it is

[dim spire]

canada

its still a very good direction to take comparatively and pay is really good

yep

[smoky quest]

you may make more just by moving to the US

[dim spire]

canada's data science pays 100k+

[smoky quest]

that's pretty much starting salary for most software engineers in the US

[dim spire]

I dont think I have the education to get into software engineering or time for that I am already 25 and I would like to transition into a goodfield asap.

starting accounting salary in canada is 35k cad unfortunately and it doesnt get much better

[smoky quest]

from google, it's ~80kUSD. That's below most starting salaries for swe jobs in the US (not just hcol)

[smoky quest]

oh I missed the part where you are in accounting. My bad.
yeah ds can be an interesting move

[dim spire]

@smoky quest I have done tax accounting, project planning and investments too I think they might help in my application

[frozen gate]

It might help if you’re applying to companies that do accounting software

[smoky quest]

for DS, a masters does help, but is not required

but if you can get one, go for it

nice!

[half flame]

Degrees are a bit overrated these days

[true harness]

says who?

[half flame]

Mine hasn't helped me at all in terms of employment

[smoky quest]

That's a pretty interesting shortcut

[frozen gate]

Nowadays companies expect a degree as the barest minimum so you need to fluff up your resume by other things

[half flame]

Unless it's really niche I don't think they're very useful

[smoky quest]

have you had a job before?

[half flame]

Yeah

[smoky quest]

yeah, pq doesn't sound as sexy as python.
But you can also turn it around in terms of how you care about the value delivered and how it's easier for that guy to use it

[half flame]

My last job was at a Payroll Software company and it was interesting.

[smoky quest]

so you are saying that having a degree has had no impact in terms of getting more opportunities to interview, even if they failed, and that the degree is useless in a job? So basically that swe jobs do not require any education?

[half flame]

Lot of gatekeeping

[smoky quest]

I never said it's easy

[half flame]

Well I had a portfolio of projects and what not that I had already worked on before, which I think did more than having a degree did.

My current employer doesn't care so much as long as you can prove yourself, which I love.

I don't think we're hiring anyone anytime soon

We're a very small operation - 5 employee's including the owner

Yeah but you're not really learning that much in school. Most of it isn't practical in the workforce

Like obviously you're taking classes and what not to understand things, but that's not so helpful in a real world environment

[smoky quest]

Because the point of school is to help you for the next 40 years of your career, not to train you in picking up a tool you can learn in one afternoon

[frozen gate]

I’ve heard some people with my degree start out in QA, and school isn’t going to teach you things you specifically need for that job

Once you’ve got the basics of programming down you can learn the rest on your own

[half flame]

My advice to current students would be to build a portfolio while you're there

It's so helpful honestly

[smoky quest]

that also helps go deeper in the subjects, acquire practical skills and do better overall. So yeah definitely!

[half flame]

And it shows you care, initiative, etc

I bought old servers off eBay when I was in school and set up a home lab to do networking stuff

Things like that definitely help

[frozen gate]

As a matter of fact I think CS degree should usually also have a portfolio

I guess there’s more latitude there since they can put school projects there

[smoky quest]

yeah, school projects and internships are standard.
Going beyond helps you stand out too from the same projects made at schools

it depends.
I build products and teams. By their nature, these products do include some DS.

So more on the applied side than research

I can deal with them

[vapid jay]

I’m trying to earn some money to build a pc to code more and advance my skill, but I don’t know where to start. How do I make money at such a young age? I’ve heard of Freelancing, and etc. Are there any other ways?

[vapid jay]

That’s not really what I meant, I want to try making a little money using python skill, I just don’t know how to do it.

[thick juniper]

Yeah, working in the real economy (as opposed to odd jobs around town, as @kind oar said) is generally illegal for a thirteen year old. Most States (assuming you're in the States) set a minimum age requirement at fourteen, and even then fourteen and fifteen year olds are under fairly comprehensive restrictions. Get better at programming over the next three years and then the world's your oyster.

[brittle thorn]

Its a step back to see children working than being in school prior to bans on child labor. Historically it did occur but enlighted people had placed laws to either restrict or ban it. Hard times like the time we are living in now might cause a new wave of underage working out of necessity. Govenments should act on that

Depends on context in the Third world there are kids doing work like collecting trash for recycling

[frozen gate]

Just enjoy your childhood and learn how to program without worrying about a job rn—I’m sure it looks excellent on college apps

[brittle thorn]

Yes

Ok the labor market is harsh and even adults like myself have at one point or another felt exploited.. what more of kids who are not yet mature and have the ablity to negotiate the terms of their employment

Laws exist to protect the those who have less ability to protect themselves from those that want to. Yes it is a market restriction but a market without regulations isnt good for society as a whole. Some might argue against it but we had a time prior to those laws. Those that dont remember history tend to repeat it.

[brittle thorn]

That is a bit dangerous

Oooga chacka...cant stop the feeling...

Remember Star Lord was abducted as a kid and became an outlaw lol

[frozen gate]

Some kids are making bank from YouTube videos, even if it’s still child exploitation

[brittle thorn]

The new gen child stars

[smoky quest]

even as an adult, most social networks are hyper toxic

[brittle thorn]

I heard of youtubers complaining of burnout on youtube due to being on youtube

https://youtu.be/QUrNbl1lNV4

[smoky quest]

it's not a competition

• Cleanup of large amount of data in different formats using python to extract the needed data.
That is super vague

it could also be taken as someone trying to bullshit me

and the resume is your way to communicate your value. If you are unable to communicate your value, that also means you may be lacking in terms of communication skills

I think there is a lot of value but it's not presented too well.
Most people tend to undersell themselves. In general, I see a lot of both end of the spectrum with either lots of bs or lots of underselling

for a new grad, no. 2 pages is for when you reach 3-5 years of xp in the field

you could group multiple of these under the same one

[vapid jay]

Is there anyone here that come to point where they feel loss or what they want to do when developing and where to go?

[graceful mason]

Definitely include the outsourcing work.... A large amount of your job could be business value stuff like that and the people who screen your resume will eat it up

How much data was there? What tools/modules did you use to filter, analyse, and present the data? What value did it bring to the company?

If you aren't demonstrating some sort of value and/or abilities then it means nothing to the person reading

[thick juniper]

😆 Damn child labor laws, always getting in the way.

[vapid jay]

That is the problem I don’t know the end point I truly want…

Career

I’ve been learning many different technologies and building projects but I dont know what else to learn from the basic surface of these technologies

[brittle thorn]

Me too at one point or another.. take time off to reflect...what do you enjoy? what are you good at

[vapid jay]

And how to go about getting an internship

[vapid jay]

I’m pretty good with web dev stack such as HTML, CSS, and JS as well with Python and different libraries with Python

[brittle thorn]

The journey is more important than the destination they say, sometimes opportunities come your way in your journey that you couldnt possibly anticipate... be prepared to take advantage of those. Luck favors the prepared. Over planning isnt agile .. plan in tiny increments and see what works

[vapid jay]

I usually use those skills to solve problems I have or others might have

[graceful mason]

Might be worth having a Consulting Project Experience section with a couple of bullet points per gig if you have lots of things to note down - just make sure you only include the interesting stuff

[vapid jay]

That is something that interests me, especially I’m pretty comfortable in the front end and back end

[brittle thorn]

Omg , influencers

Clickbait...

[brittle thorn]

Find a problem others have neglected and solve it

[thick juniper]

This is a good rule for life generally, I think.

[brittle thorn]

Worked for me lol

[vapid jay]

Ok thank you guys for the help!

[vapid jay]

My father called that the million dollar rule!

[summer roost]

That's literally what fentanyl is.

way off topic for #career-advice

[sudden quartz]

Lmao.

[pure raft]

May have stated this here, or on another cord but here goes:

I’m a career switcher (well past high school into college age) from an audio engineering field, and I’m really really intrigued by both cyber security and ai, and the direction I’ve received has been to start with Python, followed by C. Is this the right path? My goal is absolutely to have a job where I can pay my bills etc

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @winter falcon until <t:1641194023:f> (9 minutes and 59 seconds) (reason: discord_emojis rule: sent 55 emojis in 10s).

[smoky quest]

I would skip C.
Python can be used for both

but also note that a role is a lot more than a single programming language

[pure raft]

Okay gotcha, and the job field, is that something I should be worried about? The audio landscape was extremely bare so I’d absolutely love to steer clear of that if possible

[plucky lion]

That is a very broad statement. Thats like telling someone who wants to be a front end developer "i would skip javascript, python can be used instead"

Like, yeah, it can. And some jobs it will be the specific tool used (django), but others it will be completely useless (node.js)

Cybersecurity is a HUGE field, and absolutely ticks the boxes for "jobs available" and "pays the bills". There is also lots of cross over in different parts of the industry to, that is to say, the skills required for a specific job, are often also used for a different specific job. So it is FINE to start with a broad skill such as python. But you need to be warned that at some point you really need to zero into a specific part of cyber security you would want to do (or perhaps jobs you would like to apply for) and start narrowing your experience to those specific requirments.

For example, penetration testing has alot of the knowledge and skills you need to have for forensics, but you can not just jump from penetration tester to analyst. There WILL be a gap you need to close before someone would likely hire you for that specific job.

[smoky quest]

I appreciate the enthusiasm but you are putting the cart before the horses.
You can go more fine grained and detailed once you have crossed the bridge of the basics

[plucky lion]

And that is a fair statement to make. But it is a statement that needs to be made none the less. So i guess we do agree, I just wanted to clarify.

[summer roost]

The easiest path towards a software dev job for someone with an audio engineering background might be digital signals processing, which would be more likely to use C than Python

[smoky quest]

As you can see above from the generated discussions, CS in general is hyper broad and so are the various specializations.
Even AI is overused as a term and is used in place of ML in most occasions. AI/ML do require quite a bit of skills that are more related to math/stats than programming too. So you have a lot of work ahead of you beyond picking a programming language.

Note also that most engineers do need to use more than a single language at a time

[smoky quest]

Also topics related to signal processing and time series can be relevant

[smoky quest]

To expand on my message from earlier, there are also tons of opportunities in enterprise related security. Where the emphasis is more about prevention and compliance.
There is also some arguments to be made about becoming familiar with cloud and internet services prior to lower level systems, where C would have some benefit. So all in all, there is a lot of mileage you can get with python.
But again, it depends on the specialization you want to get into. Different goals make the paths look very different

Either way, you won't become a security specialist with just python and C/C++

[safe loom]

If I needed a path in cybersecurity I suppose Python won't cut it, right? What should I try if I wanted to go into cybersecurity? I know about trojan horses and bruteforcing and that's mostly it.

[dense oar]

While not necessarily very practical advice, the Darknet Diaries podcast has >100 episodes that illustrate the different facets of cybersecurity. Might be good to have a listen and see what you find interesting

[smoky quest]

just scroll up?

[safe loom]

Thanks I will check it out.

[dense herald]

hello, I'm a fairly experienced Python developer who wants to tutor students in his spare time. I don't really care about the money but what rate should I charge?

[gritty rivet]

There are loads of platforms for that so check out what they charge and what they offer. Top hit on Google says $20/hr.

[jolly ledge]

I am learning a new programming language and i fear forgetting the old one can anyone suggest me what to do

i know it may sound awkward but it keeps troubling me.

😦

[vapid jay]

Hello

Anyone here? To help me?

So can anyone tell me if I want a degree in computer science what do I have to do? Does it require math? If yes the want kind?

[gritty rivet]

Keep practicing the old one. Even if you spend 90% of your time on the new and 10% on your old, it's something

Both

[sinful girder]

I guess that would make sense. Thanks 🙂

[merry onyx]

I've been programming in general since I was probably around 12, and now at 20 I'm looking to try and crack into the work industry through either Python or C/CS. Any advice? I'm thinking of working to get Certifications in Python as a first step and building a portfolio of programs, is this sound or should I be doing something better or different?

[pure raft]

Wow!!! So much great insight! Cant thank you all enough. So I will definitely start looking at zeroing in on cyber specialization after I get this foundation. I was thinking once my portion of really having Python and C down, I’d move on to something like Rust or Lisp, but that’s definitely down the road more. I’ll also absolutely do some research into digital signals processing, as I’m extremely familiar with those tools from the producer audio side.

For the cyber side, I’ve read that pen testers/red teams are like the rockstars, but I definitely would think at the stage I’m at I’m more of a blue team.

[gritty rivet]

Certifications are worthless when it comes to being a developer. Degrees, on the other hand, are very valuable. If you don't find it feasible to go to university, portfolio is the most important thing. Bootcamps can be helpful, but a lot are scammy so be careful

[merry onyx]

What makes Certifications worthless if you don't mind me asking?

[fringe moss]

Hello

[gritty rivet]

You won't see any job listings that say they are desirable. For IT operations (help desk, networking, etc.) it's a completely different story

[vapid jay]

#discord-bots

[graceful mason]

Python is a good start for both of those, my understanding is:

• for AI you need python knowledge (especially the big libraries), picking appropriate algorithms for a dataset, and data handling + presentation techniques. Any other languages you may end up using are easy to learn and won't hold you back

• for cyber security (depends on the specific path) you need python and/or bash knowledge for writing scripts, a good understanding of how a computer can be breached + preventative measures, and certifications

[shadow moss]

For cybersecurity best is learning writing

[pure raft]

Thank you! Super good to know. I’m glad I’m getting off on the right foot! I see above they’re talking about school and certifications, etc. if I have the skills and knowledge, should I be worried that I’m not able to attend uni at the stage I’m at when it comes to the job search? I know @plucky lion gave helpful direction too, I’m just so new and I know that I’m so green to all this.

[ocean ledge]

software engineering doesn't have any worthwhile certifications

[merry onyx]

Yeah did a little digging and found answers saying that everywhere. Just gonna focus on building a portfolio for now and if I find a dream job that requires me to go back and finish my degree then I will

[graceful mason]

In the UK I have a friend who didn't attend uni and is now a pen tester. The company he worked for paid for him to attend college classes + do a ton of certifications. As long as you have the knowledge and strong communication skills (and as Rabbit says writing, you need to document everything and explain it in a way a non-technical person can understand) you should be able to find a start. It won't be as easy as with a degree but that's the case for most careers

[merry onyx]

I don't have too much experience with Python just yet so gonna work on learning its API's and libraries extensively

[pure raft]

Oh that’s awesome. Duly noted! I’m the type where, I’m really into doing the work, just as long as I know the whole ship isn’t sinking with opportunities (like it was for me in audio. That industry is totally messed up and there were no opportunities regardless of how skilled someone was)

[brittle thorn]

In the long view true, the tech stack and vendors will change and the certs can become worthless. A degree and some work experience and projects maybe better investment of time and money. Microsoft Certified Software Dev for example is gone and it is now all Azure... Expect changes

In the short term it may give you some edge if you want exposure to the tech you cant get any other way and show employers that you have some knowledge of the tech but thats it.

The companies do profit from the training and certifications and expect them to sunset them and make new ones. It is a threadmill to stay current on all the certs out there.

[brittle thorn]

I have a similar impression on bootcamps ... what are your thoughts on those that offer training with no fees in exchange for an income share agreement that last sometimes for years... lol..

[gritty rivet]

Yeah, maybe in some cases it's not a bad deal but most of those deals seem predatory. I did Nucamp which is like 10% of the cost as many others

[simple stirrup]

I AM A PYTHON DEVELOPER! I WANT TO CRACK INTERVIEWS FOR GOOGLE. WHAT SHOULD I DO LEARN ALGORITHIMS WHILE DOING JOB ?🍉

[brittle thorn]

Case by case basis do be aware... They seem to justify it as hey you got this training and now you are well paid and you were desperate enough to take the deal. Some may indeed be that desperate... but regret comes later

There ought to be some laws to limit the extent of these Income Share Agreements to what is possibly fair and equitable.. Some take advantage of others by dangling free for now but bleed you dry later and it is the people with the least bargaining power in the marketplace that fall prey to these vaguely nefarious (and sometimes downright evil) schemes hiding under the pretense of being a helping hand to those who really want to advance in life but without the means to do so

[vapid jay]

Hello anyone here?

Just need help

So can anyone tell me if I want a degree in computer science what do I have to do? Does it require math? If yes the want kind?

[sudden quartz]

Here we go again @vapid jay most compsci degrees require 2 calculus classes, 2 algorithm courses, and 2 logic courses. Id say thats the median. It depends on your specific program for how math focused the curriculum can be. There is a lot of room for specialization, what you specifically have to do depends on your goals!

[vapid jay]

Ok thanks dude!

[sudden quartz]

woops

oh you changed your name and pfp

[dense comet]

As technical SWE, how to get ready for Software 2.0? It will be on the next decade

[near ocean]

Whats software 2.0?

[sudden quartz]

using ai to write code

[dense comet]

Next generation of programming. It is a future of programming

[dense comet]

Yes, then calculus will be an essential requirement for writing a code, won’t be?

[true harness]

no

[sudden quartz]

no, ML requires no calculus. its statistics

[true harness]

ML uses calculus though

[near ocean]

I wouldnt worry about AI writing my code for me tbh, why would you?

[sudden quartz]

its hard to say it uses calculus, if youre solving a ML youre mainly worried about statistics. Calc is used in making the algorithms

[fringe moss]

would anyone have any ideas on how i could start making money with programming at 14?

[vivid gull]

^^^

Not a serious concern

[hearty island]

ml uses calc it's advisable you review it

for example, you cannot begin to understand this unless you understand partial derivatives which is taught in calc 3... or what a derivative is..

[true harness]

red is arguing that in the actual use of these models, it doesn't require calc

[vast shoal]

I figure it'll be hard to know how to properly configure a model if you don't understand how it works under the hood.

I mean, even if the lib gives you options, you might not know which settings are appropriate for your particular problem and data.

[true harness]

i think these are a bit more complicated than "press up for hot, down for cold"

[ruby zinc]

code 🐵 for life

[vast shoal]

I'm not sure it's always that simple.

Or rather, I'm doubtful about the "99% of situations".

[thick juniper]

I'm sorry. I'll keep my ear to the ground. I run into professors occasionally; I'll see what they might know about getting you into schools in the States (if you're interested in a place other than Canada, that is). Also, you might have a very good reason to trust this professor, but I'd say you should reach out to others just in case.

[light radish]

Hi, I am currently working as an electrical engineer. I am wanting to switch to software as I find it much more interesting among other reasons.

In order to make the switch I have been programming python scripts for work as well as many side projects as a hobby. I have gotten quite a few calls from recruiters and will start the technical interviews soon for many companies amongst them some FAANG.

I have attempted some leetcode questions but honestly I can barely do the easy ones, mediums are out of the question. I don't want to give up and I know with time I can knock these down.

My problem is I don't know where to start in terms of studying for these questions. Do I just keep attempting them? I feel like I have to look up the solution for all of them and it wont help me when I don't have access to google during the interview. Do I take a course on datastructures/algorithms? I know my python pretty well. I never learned datastructures, linked lists, trees, etc in a professional academic manner.

If I can set aside 25 hours a week for 4 weeks will this be enough time to prepare? I just don't know where to start. If anyone can recommend either a course or series of videos to help I would appreciate it. I am not a complete beginner to programming by any means but when it comes to these ds/algo type questions I am terrible. Thanks.

[summer roost]

A data structures and algorithms course would be very valuable to you, but I don't have a specific one to recommend. Try the book "cracking the coding interview".

[cerulean wind]

has any one of u see the CS50 course

[summer roost]

There's a few pinned messages in #algos-and-data-structs that may be helpful for you.

[fast cloud]

hey guys. I've recently bought a machine learning and deep learning with pyhton and R course . I was looking for someone I could watch it with I'll stream the whole course so that we can watch it together. We'll probably get to watch around 1-1.5 hours of it every day please let me know if youre down

sure, u mind if I dm you?

[fringe moss]

would anyone have any ideas on how i could start making money with programming at 14?

are is that even possible? not sure if most people would want a 14 year old working for them

i understand that accept i do have bank info and paypal has well connected to it.

[smoky quest]

It's not about the languages. Languages are means to an end like any tools, not end in themselves.
Look at frontend or backend roles at https://roadmap.sh/ (I don't have an equivalent for security) and you will see languages are just a tiny part of what one should know.

That said, learning languages isn't a bad thing at all, but may not be the highest priority items

That sucks.
But it's also odd. People change careers and courses all the time. But I am no expert in education

[pure raft]

You’re the absolute best my friend

[marsh wind]

In academia they usually are more conservative. You might get away switching your field between bachelor's and masters if they are somewhat relevant to each other or when you go from hard sciences to social for example. But otherwise it really is not obvious

[frozen gate]

I’ve heard of people switching fields between their bachelors and masters in unrelated fields but they usually took bridge courses to prove that they could hack it at the masters level

[dense mesa]

I'm studying regular engineering and about to graduate with a BEng, but am able to apply for some CS masters as they're specifically for converting into from other STEM degrees that aren't CS

America seems to have something like associate's degrees which seem really good for this, idk if there's anything equivalent in the UK f

[frozen gate]

Masters/postbac type programs also usually want a 3.0 minimum in your undergrad, no matter the subject

[dense mesa]

The GPA system in America seems so off, although the UK uni system is pretty strange as well. @frozen gate are you looking to go into CS from another degree?

[frozen gate]

Not right now as I’m burned out from school and my bachelors is in MIS but I was thinking once I have a job and escaped my toxic family I could consider it

[dense mesa]

Is MIS Management of Information Systems? If you wanted to go into CS that sounds like a pretty good one to have

[frozen gate]

Yes, that’s my major

[dense mesa]

Foundation years are typically for people who don't make the academic grades and/or English language requirements for their undergrad, I brought up CS conversion a bit earlier yeah

https://www.cs-conversion-list.com/

@frozen gate I would recommend looking at product (not project) management. It's a really good combination of technical skills, user experience design and business development. Was a good choice for me when I found out since it has everything I like

[noble oriole]

There are many boot camps that claim their students are hired in FAANG. I think there are better jobs out there that don’t involve working at FAANG, but I’m just wondering how are they passing the technical interviews before getting hired?

Because most boot camps last only 3 months and are heavily based on building projects and teaching “tech communication skills”

How are they passing the “algorithms and data structure” part of the interviews?

[dense mesa]

Have no experience in a bootcamp but I'm assuming there's a focus on grinding leetcode questions

[noble oriole]

I don’t think 3 months are enough to teach anyone algorithms

Can somebody get a job without a portafolio of projects? Just by doing very well on the technical and non technical interview?

[frozen gate]

How are you going to make it to the interview stage without projects? I feel like a CS degree alone wouldn’t qualify

[dense mesa]

It may be enough if they're landing jobs after. And if you don't have any projects but fly through leetcode I'm sure some places would still take you but I can't say which because I haven't heard of it

[gilded valley]

for getting junior roles, at least in the UK, a degree and some non-CS experience/volunteering is enough to be landing interviews. Something like a BSc in maths, experience working in a supermarket, and being the founder of a theatre society at university will get you in the door for plenty of grad-level interviews

[frozen gate]

And some interviews don’t ask leetcode but instead ask you a things like the features of a language or for a personal project made for them or what OOP is

[noble oriole]

Does the interview stage require projects to talk about?

I just thought focusing on leetcode only is a better approach since most of the projects I could find online would be based on youtube tutorials.

[dense mesa]

This really depends on the company, but if I were to heavily generalise my past experiences it was roughly:

1. HR screening call to make sure you're a good fit
2. Technical interview to cut down on applicants
3. Interview with a manager where they ask about projects

Number 3 (again this is just for me) was usually to make sure you can stick with writing code long enough to not get bored and/or hate it

[noble oriole]

Thank you! This helps a lot.

[dense mesa]

Something that I've discussed here before is that the interviewer always seemed to love that I understood how to Google stuff properly when debugging. It's hard to put into words, but it goes hand in hand with the idea of doing your own project

Say a beginner to programming gets an error, they're not as sure on what to Google, how to get help, how to start debugging it. If you're working in a company and getting paid a nice wage to be a SWE, they wanna know that you're efficient and effective at fixing all the bugs that will inevitably come up

That's why in interviews I always mention using special Google keywords and syntax when looking up errors, being concise with stackoverflow searches and other stuff

In a massive nutshell there's 3 levels you could demonstrate:

1. Power Searching with Google (look it up if you don't know how to do it)

2. Google Dorking
   (can you 'solve' a puzzle of finding answers with incomplete starting information)

3. OSINT
   (can you use specific tools and techniques to find basically anything that's on the "regular" internet)

[noble oriole]

Thank you for the info, yes I think I will build a big project instead and study these 3 techniques.

[dense mesa]

https://coursebuilder.withgoogle.com/sample/course

https://exposingtheinvisible.org/en/guides/google-dorking/

Just as a disclaimer, these 2 are fine, you don't need OSINT at all for this (but it's interesting)

[thick juniper]

I simply meant that you should write to other heads of other departments. I wouldn't waste the $100 either, but just because one school said it's a no-go doesn't mean all will.

[haughty torrent]

what is a career i can get as python developer and what should i focus on?

i am getting into web dev recently

[brittle thorn]

It is good to have a single point person to help define the product or guide it's evolution. I have also heard of Lean Product Management with Buzzwords like MVP or minimum viable product. There are those that favor it since we get early feedback if the product is viable before investing in it any further but then there are also those that do it the traditional way releasing the product only when it's near perfect at sometimes greater expenditure. What are your thoughts on Lean Product Management vs Waterfalll.

For some background I think it is a case by case ...I am a Certified Scrum Master so I tend to favor iterative processes myself

But I not to apply iterative in all cases since of course the real world is nuanced

[brittle thorn]

Seems to be my experience too

[thick juniper]

I'm just going into my first HR interview this week (my first interview of any kind for about a decade). Does anyone know what are the common mistakes made by otherwise decent candidates?

[strange escarp]

helloo

[brittle thorn]

Good luck btw... dont look desperate or give the feeling that you seem desperate for the position.. it can hurt you in salary negotiations and can signal them to lowball the offer or indicate that you arent confident in your abilities. I think it is like a game of poker in some way dont give a tell and play with the cards you have

I think being a Lawyer gives you some edge here you are used to dealing with people unlike probably many techies

The interview...think of it as a cross examination lol .. its not too different anything you say can be used against you and they attempt to get to some truth as to your fit for the job. Be honest at all times

Some do inflate their abilities during the interview and get caught on follow up questions or worse end up miserable in a job in which they are not qualified

Finally Job hunting is a miserable business lol keep your spirits up no matter the outcome. I had times when I did get the interview but proceed no further. It is indeed frustrating sometimes but you have to carry on. I think most people come to several interviews before landing that job.

The fact they are interviewing you is already a win and remember to thank them for that opportunity and part on good terms regardless of outcome.

[astral steeple]

hi

pls some one help me

[vapid jay]

Good luck man,hope you do well

[vapid jay]

I would but I don’t know anything myself

[astral steeple]

what

[brave mesa]

hay, guys

[foggy blaze]

hi

[vapid jay]

Dance to die

[karmic merlin]

!ban 398854332004696064 am unsure what makes you think that calling people using python "fags" is anyhow appropriate. If this is all that you want to contribute to the community, see yourself out.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @old plover permanently.

[gentle trellis]

Hello Everyone
I am planning to ask our CEO when our organization will go public. Is this a right thing to ask?

Your views please

[near ocean]

Sure
Do you have stocks in the company?

[vapid jay]

depends, would you say you’re in an appropriate position to ask that? Do you need to know?

[near ocean]

If theyre a shareholder they have every right to know

[vapid jay]

what makes u think he’s a shareholder as of now

[signal saddle]

is freelance web designer a good career?

[weary blade]

if you make enough money off it

I'm a freelance web developer (not designer)
I'd say like the initial slope is kinda high but yeah its good after that

[vapid jay]

if you enjoy that sort of thing yes it can be

[signal saddle]

wow

there's so much help

thank you

so like could you explain me how does a freelance web designer get jobs

[marble dawn]

Yes you can do a lot of gigs online, if you’re business oriented this a good field to be in to later start your own company, only challenge is with a full time job you have fixed income, however with freelance it might be challenging to have a fixed income, i prefer freelance tho bc it has more potential for business oriented ppl.

[signal saddle]

or how does he make money ?

is'nt this timeout irritating? 😂

[weary blade]

which skills do you have rn?, what software tools can you use at the moment?

[signal saddle]

ok thank you

[signal saddle]

i am in class 11 right now 🥲

was planning about future

[marble dawn]

Give it a try, most likely you won’t know if its your thing or not until you try it

[signal saddle]

i actually liked python

[weary blade]

well there are good resources online that can help you out, I'd say that like the free youtube videos are awesome, and I wouldn't recommend paying for bootcamps or anything

upwork is where I find my work, but you may find better and different resources to your liking

[marble dawn]

With freelance you have a lot more freedom for when and where to work

[signal saddle]

i used to go for classes
that time i got interest

aditya you seem to be indian

[weary blade]

ehhh, this largely depends and we've contractual obligations with companies which we can't really get out from easily

[signal saddle]

could you tell me if i can do this web designing with PCB

[weary blade]

honestly I also prefer long contract jobs like 6 to 12 month contracts

[signal saddle]

physics, chem and bio

or math is compulsory

[weary blade]

you can do web development with anything and no you don't really need math

[signal saddle]

cuz my parents are not allowing me to take PCM

[signal saddle]

thanks nice to hear this

[weary blade]

just learn to be kind and smart

[signal saddle]

sure👍

this isn't an indian server right?

[grizzled rose]

Hey..I am new to this server...Can anyone please guide me About the activities in this server and How can I study python from Beginning

[ocean ledge]

dear god no, that would be awful

[signal saddle]

😂

[lusty fjord]

hello everyone, does anyone have a prior experience in building a project using research paper.
or have any sources which can help

[gritty rivet]

Try #python-discussion

[light radish]

You can find a udemy course for under $20 which gives a good basic understanding. There are also lots of free youtube tutorials.

[grizzled rose]

Thanks

[grizzled rose]

Thanks... Currently I am watching Tech with Tim tutorials

[vapid jay]

we got same pfp lol

I GOT IT BEFORE!

[thick juniper]

What's great about those is that you can work like a man possessed for those months and then take a three month vacation. (This depends obviously on making enough money from those contract positions.) One had to be business minded to make it work, though.

[indigo tapir]

Anyone here from Brazil knows hows the market. I mainly wanna know if it is worth pursuing computer science in the country.

[ivory marlin]

Recommended books: crash course python and automate the boring stuff with python. Kallie Hallden also has some One Day Builds for small projects : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWr0mx597DnSGLFk1WfvSkQ

[rustic badge]

what are some careers/fields/markets that aren't commonly combined with (Python) programming, but are often very valuable. One example i can think of is a "Marketer Programmer". That person is usually a superhuman in their own right in some businesses with such a skillset

another is the mythical "Designer Developer"

[rustic badge]

yeahhh. these are the type of spaces im in interested in

the more i learn python the more i realize i enjoy it more as a tool

vs intrinsically digging deeper into heuristics and stuff

yeah ive been through that book. most of the things i already know how to do, or they dont interest me

its just a daily process rn of "finding my niche"

rn im in IT doing Epic-based things, and have been doing that for a while. outside of that though, ive spent the last 5 years trying to answer that question really

"what makes me curious?"
"what do i not mind doing?"

outside of very specific games, only thing i find myself willing to deep dive into is coding things

but in order to code things i have to have an interest in things lol. strange catch 22

pretty much i train people to use specialized software

[smoky quest]

2 or 3. Setting the context first helps

[ivory marlin]

Accountant here🙋‍♂️

Only had 2 choices in school.commercial or science field.....i went where my friends went

Finished a data science python course at edX🙃

[dense mesa]

Not cool to joke about drugs in a professional setting 🙂

[ivory marlin]

....paid one

Did the audit but was very limiting...then i asked the company to pay 😎

And your field @kind oar ?

They wont spend that kind of money on me....not even if i take out a loan through them

We have fairly similar backgrounds and fairly similar future plans.

I have already...........non professionally.
Building a small portfolio atm

You got any analytics or ds projects?

Have some high school math but did not need it for the stuff i was builing......maybe i did not build something complex enough yet

https://ipl-analytics-app.herokuapp.com/

https://cardanowarriors-analytics.herokuapp.com/

2 of my web apps

I also did some stuff on kaggle.not alot.u have a kaggle prof?

[ivory marlin]

Used plotlydash

Free dynos

On the cardano warriors app?

Kaggle profile

Yip.my other crypto web app is hosted on github.

I have not tried it. Just trying the open source stuff atm

[sudden quartz]

The only thing academia people love is your gpa and test scores.

Govt people even more

[sleek vessel]

Hey guys, hope everyone's doing well! Fairly new to discord and the server, looking forward to meeting some new people.

I run a creative ad studio based in London, we're focused mainly in the music industry as well as fashion & e-com. We work on content & digital marketing. We're currently looking to build a tool to assist with attribution modelling, visualisation, etc. initially for in-house use and eventually for other studios/agencies. Looking for some people to work with on it as I'm quite new to the data science/web app dev space. If you're interested in being part of it or have any guidance drop me a message.

[blazing shard]

a friend made a youtube channel to go over leetcode questions in spanish! if yall interested it would help them! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqsSpLUyagw

[smoky quest]

no ads please

Do you have pdf versions? It's difficult to select or copy/paste from pictures

[smoky quest]

no ads please

[brittle thorn]

Yes, I lived as a freelance software dev too on and off.. You have to learn to save and budget and limit expenses but there is much freedom. Nobody owns your time

Whether you are working full time or part time or freelance dont overlook saving up

It can get you some degree of freedom from making choices in the job market that you wish to avoid

[ivory marlin]

Thats why i choose it.Dont think pbi and blockfrost.io will go so well

[tacit condor]

Hey Guys My recruiter sent me I have no idea what I do please help me guys

Can you please link me to 3 files on your github with code samples of code you have written? I tried searching through the repositories but couldn't find substantial logic outside the library code. I am looking for code written by you that includes aspects like:

• complex logic (looping, conditionals, etc), templating, models (database interaction) for developers
• training or inference on ML models, data wrangling for data scientists and analysts
• sophisticated styling / design, etc. for designers and UI engineers
• usage of APIs / SDKs / engines as applicable

If it's not public on github, attaching code samples is also fine.

I am 15 years old Its my first time

[smoky quest]

do you have such code you wrote?

do they know you are 15?

[sudden quartz]

What

[brittle thorn]

Good question lol

[sudden quartz]

quite a bizarre post

[smoky quest]

not necessarily, if they applied to a real job

[brittle thorn]

Plus they are asking about your github not others

They can check if your did a copy paste lol

[tacit condor]

Yeah they know

[smoky quest]

so what's the hold up?

[sudden quartz]

What kind of job is this? Are they asking for your code?

[tacit condor]

I wrote my code myself I don't what is the problem

[smoky quest]

looks like what they saw wasn't substantial enough. They list the type of things they are looking for

[tacit condor]

Its a software engineer

Ok

[sudden quartz]

[tacit condor]

Soo what should I next

[smoky quest]

Do you have more substantial code which fits what they are looking for?

[tacit condor]

Yeah I have

[smoky quest]

So point them to it

[sudden quartz]

Oh, i misread read the post

[smoky quest]

Make sure to clean it up before

[tacit condor]

Ok I understand

Thanks for Instructions

[smoky quest]

np

[tacit condor]

What?

[sudden quartz]

"no problem"

[smoky quest]

No Problem

[tacit condor]

Ok 😅

[vapid jay]

Landed an interview for a data analyst, does anyone have suggestions or a plan of attack for interviews?

I would appreciate it!

[earnest axle]

Hi guys, I'm going to sleep now but I really wanted to ask this one question. Feel free to ping while replying so I can read it when I wake up.

I'm taking udemy courses on python and sql and I plan to make projects and attempt to build up my portfolio. I live in America and I'm 15 years old. What are the possibilities of me getting a decent job with just a good portfolio and course certificates alone such as on LinkedIn without going to a college/university? (I don't see the point in going into so much debt).

And a follow up question, is it worth it to pay $200k to go to a university for 4 years just for a computer science degree? What should I start doing now? (I'm in 10th grade)

What are the chances of me getting a job by time I'm 18 with no college/unversity if I master sql and python and I have certificates from udemy to prove it? And even if I get a lesser job, could I use that lesser job or internship and use that to work my way up to a good job without any college? (for job experience)

[vague raptor]

HI everyone,

this is my first time I'm using discord, I'm a teacher, transitioning out of teaching into data science. Having no background in IT, it difficult for me to learn all this, but I'm gonna learn all this

[woven quest]

Not sure if this is permitted here, but i want to invite all developers here to apply for a $100,000 investment from Accelerating Asia!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHncTnr_w68

[gritty rivet]

Get a degree, without the debt. Do your first two years at community college and then transfer to a 4-yeat state school, go part time and/or put it off a year of you really need to, just plan to do whatever you have to do to make it work. Even if you need a modest amount of debt (I had almost $50k and paid it off in a few years without trouble) it's still worth it.

Even $200k debt isn't so bad when you consider that you can easily earn $100k/year with a CS degree and a few years experience. Yes it's theoretically possible to earn that money without a degree but it's way, way harder. Udemy certs etc. count for nothing at all when compared to a four your degree from even the lowest rung of state colleges

The stuff you're already doing will help your college applications. But to really know how to prepare for college you should talk to your school guidance counselor and people like that

[digital fiber]

i have almost the same situation, this really inspired me of thinking about it, thanks

[manic grove]

You got this Ginny. Feel free to join us sometimes in #data-science-and-ml channel 😊

[astral steeple]

hi

i have some error pls help me

hey

[sudden quartz]

go to a help channel

[dire maple]

I see people are discussing university vs certification. Like Ginny I had the same epiphany that I no longer wish to continue my career in education.

I've looked around and seen plenty of suggestions for getting free certifications or relatively short/cheap courses. Of course my skepticism kicked in quickly. There are also plenty of people claiming that there is no need for a bach degree - you can just "teach yourself" and do free lance work.

Watched some summarized youtube videos about Python and why it's popular and its possible applications. But ultimately I'm trying to determine which direction is the best and most efficient, financially and amount of time required to enter the field.

If anyone could give me a bump in the right direction so my choices become a bit more clear. That'd be amazing.

I have moderate savings, nothing insane. And a child on the way.

My ultimate goal is to have decent income and to work remotely.

[gritty rivet]

A lot here can only be figured out by you for you because interests, aptitude, etc matter a lot. Generally I think the one most valuable thing you can do to enter development work without a relevant degree is just build stuff. It's the best way to learn and it's the best way to prove what you know. Tutorials are ok but building stuff that is useful and interesting to you is important

[dire maple]

How friendly is developing games. Let's say something simple like a turn based RPG?

That might be something of a goal that could drive me.

As far as real world applications go.. I have zero knowledge outside of some basic college programming classes.

[gritty rivet]

If you're totally new to Python, a text based RPG is a great project to learn the basics. From there you'll need to figure out what direction interests you and focus on preparing for specific kinds of roles . Roadmap.sh can be a little overwhelming at first but is a good place to start getting a high level overview of some specific career paths you might consider

[dire maple]

Okay.. Thanks. Hopefully this sticks. I'm just trying to get as many perspectives as possible before I make any brash decisions

[junior dagger]

Hi guys, I am a beginner/intermediate. Is there any way I could find a group to work on a small project to improve my skills?

[dire maple]

Yeah. Teaching is just pretty horrific at the moment and it's my 6th year. It's never been this bad and I've always had a slight interest in programming. Never fully engaged with it

Next semester is providing me with 2 planning periods in a row. I was going to use the 2nd planning period to teach myself some stuff daily.

hm

I'll take that advice

Yeah. Like I said earlier, there are tons of different answers I'm getting when I look up guides on YT. I'm assuming that's just because Python is almost universal at this point so there's a lot of different ways to use it...

Yeah. About 2 years ago I was playing through some "game" that was about coding. Pretty sure Python was the foundation for it

Peaked my interest but life got busy

https://roadmap.sh/roadmaps/python.png

This is absurdly daunting

hm. Well... I'll start making a plan tonight. I appreciate the thoughtful advice. I've also read that many people who program end up having to learn most of the languages anyways

[buoyant seal]

Learning in one hour Framework, Testing, OOP, Usage of Git? Good luck.

[sudden quartz]

only mastery matters

[analog sun]

What is the purpose of this message?

[dense mesa]

Real talk man pick one of those and I can ELI5 it for you. I understand it looks hard rn, but you pick this stuff up as you go and it becomes second nature

[brittle thorn]

Hi, yes I taught myself Python and SQL and many other computer languages. I am not a major in Computer Science I finished a Degree in Chemistry and had MS units and got absorbed into the University IT department. Granted thou I was working in the graduate school computer lab as a Teaching Assitant prior to that and worked on two uni projects as an undergrad too in the 90s ... one a touch screen kiosk made with VB3 lol and another a library database system...lol i taught myself VB, pascal, C, etc

Get a degree any degree.. Any course with maths or communication or business or graphics arts can be leveraged in IT. We see many succeed without the degree but it is good to have a fall back. If you have a non CS degrre lol you have a fallback career if your ambitions to enter IT dont bear fruit... I was also able to work in a Research lab as a Chemist and Teach High School and work in a Testing Lab as a Chem undergrad for minor parts of my career while spending the rest in IT... I do remember our Uni being nominated for a local webby when the first Matrix came out...didnt win... but I won in a neo cosplay during that thingy lol..
If your degree is Computer related stick to it if that is what you really want if not then shift and finish any degree.

[frozen gate]

My school’s going online for the first two weeks of the spring semester

[brittle thorn]

Work on projects... Projects can establish your credibility regardless of what degree you have. Some CS graduates that dont have projects may lose out to others without the degree but with projects.
Nowadays maybe even try starting companies while in school. I personally know a few who did and worked with a few of them too.

Finally read books and self study even if you dont have a Comp Sci degree you can learn it. The desire and drive to learn is the most important thing with all the resources that are available on and off line

Dont neglect offline resources like books lol ...ask your CS major friends to lend them to you...be resourceful..
I wanted to shift to Computer Eng from Chemistry but I still ended up in IT

[dense mesa]

Sorry to hear that, what are your thoughts on it?

[frozen gate]

I do much better in person but at least it shouldn’t be long

[frozen gate]

My degree taught Python and SQL which I can see helping for a data analyst job

[dire maple]

@brittle thorn That's quite impressive. Thanks for the insight.

I have a degree in English Literature with several teaching certificates. Not sure if any company would think that's useful in any circumstance. But what can you do...

About projects - everyone keeps highlighting this as "the way to go". But it's so vague in my mind. I can't see what a project is, I'm sure there are so many examples. But I have zero concept of Python and what it's capable of, so I'm just having a hard time imagining what I'd involve myself with or even why someone would take me into a "project".

[frozen gate]

Im sure it still communicates that 1) you can stick to completing large things and 2) you can communicate to your audience clearly

[brittle thorn]

Ah English lit.. try to do Natural Language Processing ... Your background maybe useful there ...Study on Data Science and Python a bit...Build better bots that can rival Shakespeare and Homer and any number of literary greats

To be or not to be ...

[dire maple]

Hahaha, I'll code the best monkey with a typewriter the world has ever seen

[dark arrow]

@zenith kestrel move to #voice-chat-text-0 if you want to talk to the people in vc0. do not spam to meet the 50 messages requirement, that'll only get you voicebanned for longer

[brittle thorn]

Many devs hate doing documentation and help the industry by doing program documentation or marketing materials...work as web site copywriter

Domt dismiss your degree

[dreamy thorn]

Has anyone ever worked for a company called Talentheed Inc?
Is it a good company to work for?

[sudden quartz]

the message was fine, you just didnt get the phrase

[dense mesa]

What does Glassdoor say?

[dreamy thorn]

They don't seem to be in glassdoor. Indeed has a few positive reviews however

[pearl spire]

Employement agencies tend to be bad. If you can help it, it's best to avoid being a contract worker.

Agencies tend take a lot of your salary, provide mediocre benefits, and who ever you contract with could see you as second class compared to employees that work for that company directly.

I'm coming from a large tech company that hires hundreds of contractors. I'm not a contractor myself, but I hear contractors complaining a lot about their agencies and I couldn't blame them.

[dreamy thorn]

Thanks for the input.
I graduated my bootcamp in Feb and am having trouble landing my first job. I got an offer from revature, but didn't want to go wherever they placed me

[dense mesa]

Was this a US bootcamp? I'm looking at UK ones vs conversion masters in CS

[dreamy thorn]

Ya. Coding Dojo. I did the whole thing online while working overseas.
Had to do their part-time flex program. It was great and I learned a ton, but you aren't really ready for interviews when you graduate. Gotta put in extra studying to learn the lingo and principles you would get from a CS degree.

If you did their full time course you'd come out with 3 full stack projects under your belt

[dense mesa]

Ah OK cool. In terms of not being ready, do you mean LeetCode style questions or something else?

[dreamy thorn]

Yes for part time. In their full time course you spend an hour each morning studying algorithms. In part time (like I did) you gotta make time for that on your own which is difficult if you have a full time job.

But I also mean learning to talk about your projects in the way the interviewer wants. Like, "explain the principles of object oriented programming and how you used that in your project"
At the end of the part time course I could program a full stack python application, but didn't know much about OOP. And they didn't teach anything on Big O.

[thick juniper]

I have my first interview in 15 minutes. Wish me luck! (And regardless of how it turns out, Thank you to everyone on this channel. You've helped a great deal.)

[ivory marlin]

best of luck even though i did not contribute

[thick juniper]

You very well might have. Even when I wasn't asking questions I've been lurking on here for weeks and reading everything. So thanks! Either for any question you asked or any answer you gave which I read. And for the luck.

[thick juniper]

Me too! 😆 😬

[frozen gate]

I’ve also heard with recruiting agencies like that, there’s no guarantee you end up in a software dev role and you could end up doing tech support

[vapid jay]

any way to make money with python while still being in high school?

[hearty copper]

Ask your parents

[thick juniper]

Eh... fairly good, actually. Thanks for asking.

We're talking again early next week. She's talking with people to see if I can take the entry-level assessment in Python instead of Java (the position is a Java Developer but I don't know any Java, so... nice of them if they allow it). If not, we might postpone the assessment for several months and I can try to cram knowledge in java, easier since I know a bit of python. There's also an alternative which sounds like a paid bootcamp-type pipeline which trains us for three months to see if we'd be a good fit in the company. The problem with that is the next one is May to September and my wife gives birth in early August, so... keeping to as hard a schedule as a bootcamp would demand in August is possibly possible but not exactly ideal.

Honestly... it feels like they're being super accommodating and I have no idea what that means. Or possibly it's just HR being HR and they'll come back and say, 'on second look, I don't think this will be the proper fit for us'.

[dense mesa]

I think it's a great sign they're communicating, seems like they should understand the new baby situation as well

[thick juniper]

I'll definitely do the freezer thing. We did it last time but the food only lasted a week. We'll be better prepared this time!

And thanks for the congrats. We're (as one might imagine) super excited.

And I hear about the silliness of applying for a java developer position not knowing java, but a friend of mine recommended me and he suggested it didn't matter, so I applied.

[earnest axle]

that's really good advice and thank you so much and that's motivating

[earnest axle]

100k a year with a CS degree? how long would that take after you get your degree? just curious, what are the chances of getting a good job within 5 years lets say if i go to an average university, get a CS degree (lets say i do average in the school) and i make it until the end?

yep and ill continue working on projects and learning to code and ill def learn to prepare for my college apps and college

[dense mesa]

I don't live in the US and this is information that was self reported on other servers, so obviously heavy selection bias. But it seems like in the US, people who do software internships and grind leetcode are pretty well set up for earning $60k+ after uni/college, and 100k didn't seem too crazy

If you join the CS careers hub you can get an idea

[earnest axle]

wow, thx!

[earnest axle]

this?

[dense mesa]

Yes

[gritty rivet]

I agree with Anz that 60k is representative of average starting salaries for first job after finishing a four year CS degree. It varies a lot by location though and with experience salaries ramp up pretty quick. Looks like $150k is the median salary for full stack software engineers at all levels and 75% are making at least 100k total compensation https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/Full-Stack/

[earnest axle]

that's really cool and informative, thanks so much

[true harness]

according to indeed + previous discussion in this channel. in the US, starting salaries are over 100k across the US

[ivory sluice]

time for me to pivot to SWE

$60k is kinda low-balling even for entry level I think, especially post-covid since companies are now more open to recruiting remote talent

even for a low COL area $60k does sound quite low

[dense mesa]

Same, pretty much leaving regular engineering behind

[smoky quest]

That's the sort of expected salary with a CS degree on your first year in the USA

[earnest axle]

damm

well low balling is fine for me cause im not expecting too high

[earnest axle]

what if you attended a community college and did average in school but still got your cs degree? how would it turn out then?

and would you still need internships and other stuff?

[smoky quest]

doesn't matter which school you attended as long as you got that degree.
Note internships can help, but won't be a deciding factor. New grads are hired for their potential, not their deep experience

[brittle thorn]

It means that they understand your position and seem willing to give you a chance since the probably want you to be part of the team. This is HR and management showing their humanity and it is great.Talent is hard to find and they seem willing to invest in you . Your efforts in doing that python game could have impressed them along with that law degree lol. If you ever get a chance to elicit and document user requirements it can be handy... Logic is logic so legal reasoning can be transferable plus once you master one programming language it is easy to master another if your are motivated. Try to show you are a quick study and you will probably get hired

[smoky quest]

If they are already lowballing you know, that also imply they won't hesitate to not give you raise and not make you climb the ladder

[earnest axle]

rly? what about schools nobody has heard about? and what's the difference between a cheap community college and an expensive university then?

is it really worth it if you can get the same pay from working a few more years and getting more experience?

[earnest axle]

ah true

[smoky quest]

A large portion of engineers in the Bay Ara, paid top dollars, are not from the US. Do you think every one knows the top school in ukraine, costa rica, india, china, canada, france, germany, uk... ?

[earnest axle]

true

[dense mesa]

Wait fr? I thought they didn't sponsor visas because of how many applicants they get in the US, have completely been ignoring US for now

[brittle thorn]

The best and most successful people have done silly things ...look at Musk. I suggest doing more silly when payoff is good. I have done the silly thing of trying two startups and failing but learning in the process

[smoky quest]

covid has had a strong impact, but the people already there didn't leave

[brittle thorn]

Yeah

[smoky quest]

plus international students

[brittle thorn]

Estonia sounds good as long as Russia behaves

Ah cool

Get into any EU member state

[smoky quest]

these aren't bad place to be.
But Monaco isn't known for their tech hub last I checked

[brittle thorn]

Estonia is techy

Oh my brexit

Brexit was probably bad for UK labor mobility.. bye bye EU

And you can live your Casino Royale Bomd fantasies lol

An expat Brit in Monaco like Bond

Cool pic thou and uplifts spirts that are down during the pandemic

It a win then either way ...Monaco or Estonia. If you are having a hard time deciding you can use random nunber gen or dice lol... lol Monaco has gambling so take a bet either way since it seems both good.

Note a Brit in Monaco or Estonia could be the cold open of a Bond Movie

[dense mesa]

And yeah would be a decent bond film tbh, license to distribute instead of the other thing

[brittle thorn]

Probably wise and for people who are asian the recent anti asian sentiment in the US will scare of some.. Same of labor from the south of the US. US immigration is a mess

But dont write off US long term ...

[thick juniper]

Besides actually being a quick study, how does one show he is? Although that is my hope, that they'll come back, tell me I can take the assessment with Python and that it covers X, Y, and Z where I know X and Y and need to study for a week or two to nail Z down as well. The best plans of mice and men, however...

[true harness]

what section of my resume would i put stuff about leading a school club in. would i put that under my education?

[brittle thorn]

Show also that you are a fit with the company culture and be likeable... Their test will probably cover some basic algorithms that can be coded in either Java or Python so read up on them. It will test how you think on your feet and reason and they could ask how you came up with your solution. Be sure you can explain whatever you coded... You will probably miss a topic or two but dont worry too much and do your best.

[summer roost]

no, whatever section you're putting your extracurriculars or projects or hobbies in

[true harness]

also, under "Tools", i have "Git and Github". i also want to mention github actions but i don't really want to be repetitive. how do?

[smoky quest]

you can either do it per tool and adding to the CI/CD, or within parenthesis next to github (git, actions, issues)

[ivory sluice]

a 2 year community college will give you an associate's degree, which isn't equivalent to the typically 4 year bachelor's of science degree

a cost-saving strategy is doing 1-2 semesters in a community college, making sure those credits are transferable to whatever university you want to transfer to, and getting the BS degree from the university. this takes extra prep and research, but I'd look into it if tuition expenses or living expenses are a concern

and yes you can make a lot of money in the future and pay off debt reasonably quickly, but it is mentally taxing to be in debt, even if it's student debt. so take that into consideration

go for the 4 year bachelor of science degree. don't spent $200k on it though

[frozen gate]

Well, you can still get a programming job with an associates, since I think DS&A is second year stuff and you can do projects on your own

[smoky quest]

a BS does make a difference with an associate

[brittle thorn]

Understandable it is unfortunate that students have to go into debt just to get into the first rung of a career ladder. Take the perspective thou that long term you can get ahead and you might regret not getting that degree too if you dont try...

[brittle thorn]

Yes big difference

[ivory sluice]

I amended my statement bc I realized it made it sound like I suggested skipping the degree when I meant don't skip it and don't overspend on it

[brittle thorn]

Ah ok then maybe a ladderized program if you can find it Assoc deg then Bachelor

[thick juniper]

Also, most community colleges have a transfer program with the particular State University. If you do a certain number of credits at a certain GPA, you get to transfer all those credits into the State University and automatic acceptance. Obviously check your specific college before relying on that, but still.

[brittle thorn]

At least you get two degrees for same effort and time and even if you dont finish your BS you could have an Assoc degree. Be sure to finish

Or the student debt is really really bad

[brittle thorn]

Yeah GPA matters plus perhaps the reputation of the community college in Transfers

[ivory sluice]

I'd skip the associates, use CC as a way to get a BS degree for cheaper

[earnest axle]

thanks so much!

[ivory sluice]

this is a common track. community college > state university

you don't need to get the 2 degrees, I don't see a benefit. use community college to get the "general education" requirements out of the way for a much cheaper tuition cost, cheaper even that state uni.

[earnest axle]

just another question, are you allowed to stop/pause college in the middle and continue at a later time? if so, how does that work?

[ivory sluice]

why do you ask?

[earnest axle]

in case in the future i either want to stop for a bit to do other stuff like save up more money

[ivory sluice]

I have peers that took time off from school bc it was too much for them mentally and they needed an extended break. but if you can get through it in one go, that's what I'd recommend. building momentum to go back to school is hard.

[thick juniper]

This. But if cost is of super-concern, do the full degree and then transfer all 60 credits (usually the maximum State Universities allow) into the University of choice. Again, make sure that the State University will automatically accept you at a certain GPA from the community college (and of course then make sure you get that GPA).

[thick juniper]

Every college is different. The credits don't go away, exactly, but how long ago they were earned determines which colleges accept which credits. It's a headache and as @ivory sluice said, it's better to just do it in one if at all possible.

[earnest axle]

👍

[thick juniper]

Even if "in one" is over eight years instead of four.

[earnest axle]

so could i possibly transfer them to like carniege mellon or harvard /s

or if you're only talking about state ones could i automatically get accepted into rutgers?

[true harness]

should i include links to the projects that i mention

[ivory sluice]

if cmu is a goal school, look into what number of transfer students they accept each semester, and from what schools

[thick juniper]

Eh... those aren't state schools. You'd have to check if they accepted the school's credits. My gut reaction is no, but I could be wrong.

[earnest axle]

ohh

[true harness]

for CMU, just to get a sense of the odds

[ivory sluice]

those are slim odds

not impossible but

[thick juniper]

So it's interesting you bring up Rutgers. That's where I went and I grew up in Jersey. If you go to MCC (Middlesex Community College), you can do 60 credits there and, if you earn a certain GPA, Rutgers will automatically accept you and all those credits will transfer. At least, that's how it worked circa 2009. Several of my friends went that route.

[earnest axle]

yeah but does transferring work differently? like ik you have to do a college app and other stuff to go to a college but you said transferring them with a certain gpa can let you automatically get acceptepd?

[brittle thorn]

Find a scholarship if you can and dont mind the odds better if you try

[earnest axle]

I'm growing up there rn

ooh cool, is rutgers decent ish for computer science?

[earnest axle]

it's so hard :(( and almost none of them apply to me and some essay ones are good but theyre hard

[brittle thorn]

It is the same in job hunting almost

[true harness]

not many internships want high school students in my area 😦 they all want college students 😔

[brittle thorn]

Good training for the future and yes you need the degree

[thick juniper]

Here's some more information, after a quick search. Looks like they might have changed some of the policies since I knew people who dealt with it, but I didn't read far enough to be sure. https://sasundergrad.rutgers.edu/degree-requirements/credits/transfer-credits/transfer-credit-outside-rutgers#transfer-from-new-jersey-county-or-community-colleges

[earnest axle]

ohhh cool, that's ok if it affects what i just said, i just brought it up because it was the first state college that came to mind

[thick juniper]

Here's where I can no longer help you. I studied English and History and got my law degree. I might be more of a novice than you are at programming. I'm making (or trying to make) a career shift.

[brittle thorn]

My brother got a bit of burn out and took a Leave of absence for a year...He returned a year later and switched majors and is happy with his long teaching career...It is possible

[earnest axle]

ah ok, np

[smoky quest]

It's up to you and the expected outcome and what you want the reader to get out of it

[earnest axle]

cool! thx for the info

[brittle thorn]

All paths are different in the end all that matters is one is happy with your choices and dont regret making them

[smoky quest]

What do you want out of them?
Also are the projects clean and a good representation of how you would write code at work?

[true harness]

i want to not be poor + get xp. the code is alright, i think. i wouldn't really know 😔

[smoky quest]

not be poor is orthogonal to your repos

feel free to send a link here to some of the repos for a quick review

[true harness]

i may have misinterpreted your question then oops

[smoky quest]

I was trying to reply to that message. I screwed up

[true harness]

ah, that makes more sense

[smoky quest]

Also I think I replied to your same question on the other server

[true harness]

wait what other server

[smoky quest]

someone just asked about internships for HS students at the same time on the coding den

[true harness]

interesting. i'm not in that server

[true harness]

https://github.com/SavagePastaMan/freecell/tree/dev i'm thinking of putting this one on even though i basically just started it. edit: apparently my WSL thinks it's christmas today, so commits made today appear before all the other commits

[flint owl]

Is it easy to get a stable career in games programming or is it mainly luck (ping me if you got an answer)

[summer roost]

WSL's clock loses time if you hibernate the PC. sudo hwclock -s fixes it.

[true harness]

what does that do?

[summer roost]

fixes it - syncs the system clock from the hardware clock

[summer roost]

It's one of the more competitive and least stable areas of software development, from what I gather.

[flint owl]

Alr thankss

[summer roost]

https://kotaku.com/why-game-developers-keep-getting-laid-off-1583192249 for instance

[ripe pagoda]

Is there a career in learning optimization algorithms? I am interested after learning PSO

[summer roost]

Game dev is extremely competitive, because lots of people are interested in games and dream of working on them. The hours are long (look up "crunch" in the context of game dev), the pay is relatively low, and you may be laid off between projects. Even developers on AAA titles don't have the ability to do their best work. See https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2021-03-15-rockstar-officially-implementing-fan-made-fix-that-massively-reduces-gta-online-load-times for instance.

[flint owl]

So I was right, yeah my brother is studying it and I personally have a really bad feeling about it. Don't know how to talk him out of it tho.

[flint owl]

That sucks

[flint owl]

Holy shit 80-100 hour weeks

[summer roost]

yeah. I've never worked in that industry myself, but the stories I've heard make it sound like just about the least rewarding type of professional software development you could do.

[flint owl]

What would be the most rewarding

[brittle thorn]

Ah dont do a hard sell he might push back. Present facts and let him come to his own conclusions

[flint owl]

That's what I'm planning yeah. You can't force it on anyone especially if its their passion

[brittle thorn]

This is cause of many a sibling fight...

[serene kindle]

i think game dev is really good though, i wouldn't fight it

[flint owl]

Its gonna cause one lmaoo

[summer roost]

ah, do you work in game dev?

[serene kindle]

like a huge amount of industrial software nowadays uses game engines anyway

[flint owl]

It is and its fun but it isnt really stable and from what I've seen requires mostly luck..

[serene kindle]

you literally learn game dev to do industrial software nowadays, like, it is not really 'just game dev', the game engines took over the world

game engines are very powerful, and do a lot of things other than games. they do more and more things every year, more industries, more problem solving, more applications

people actually create video games using game engines to be able to get industrial jobs

[summer roost]

I suspect that depends on the individual. Financial Tech and development at big companies pays very well. Startups give great culture and are very exciting, but high pressure - you get to learn a lot of things, but have to wear a lot of hats, and the roles aren't very clearly defined. Web development has the advantage of being very easy to get into, comparatively speaking, which means compensation is relatively low, but there's tons of job availability.

[serene kindle]

i would never join a startup personally, unless it was the only option you had

[summer roost]

so - where do you work?

[flint owl]

Woooooooo ty

[serene kindle]

ok fine, honestly working for a startup does have huge advantage sometimes, for example if you're trying to break into a new industry that doesn't have a lot of normal jobs yet

this is a huge advantage i will admit

since eventually the big company will basically just copy the startup and hire you

[ivory sluice]

what?

[summer roost]

that can happen, though it's pretty rare and only comes up for particularly novel tech.

[serene kindle]

like blockchain is an example. way more likely to get a startup job than a big tech job. but eventually you could probably work at some huge company

[summer roost]

blockchain hasn't been adopted by large companies because it's just not very useful.

[serene kindle]

https://www.monster.com/job-openings/software-engineer-digital-assets-new-york-city-ny--3494bd30-bf49-449a-862c-bc6d51e66c9b

Software Engineer - Digital Assets
Goldman Sachs
Deep knowledge with underlying blockchain technology and protocols in consensus algorithms, cryptography, transaction and state models.

[summer roost]

what blockchain gives you is a distributed append-only ledger that can be collaboratively written by mutually distrustful parties and that can be read by anyone. That's very cool, and occasionally useful, but it's not very useful. Generally big companies handle collaboration between distrustful entities by having trusted third parties in the middle - like government agencies

[serene kindle]

SKILLS AND EXPERIENCE WE ARE LOOKING FOR
Strong 3+ years of software development experience building digital asset solutions on blockchain platforms such as Ethereum, Corda, Quorum, Hyperledger Besu, Hyperledger Fabrics, Bitcoin

the idea is, how would you have 3+ years of experience ... if you weren't working for some startup for 3+ yaers

[brittle thorn]

Makes sense...the engines are fast and optimized... industrial software used to be just 2D flow charts and now with 3D engines these sims can be more realistic.. Heard of Microsoft entering this space with virtual twins of physical factories.. You could do what if simulations cheaper and quicker in VR. They say it is the MS industrial Metaverse lol

[summer roost]

job ads are wishlists, not requirements. They'll hire someone without any experience in crypto for that job, I guarantee it.

[brittle thorn]

Or buy the startup

[serene kindle]

yeah that's really lucky situations. tbh mostly big companies just copy startups. i wish i was the lucky person who the startup got bought.

ok not luck but i guess stuff like having many users . big companies just really copy a lot

[summer roost]

90% of startups fail within 5 years.

[serene kindle]

hard not to fail when you get copied by a big company

[flint owl]

yep

[serene kindle]

no offense, but a big company can do something that is 5% the quality and will still win

[flint owl]

just be a big company ezzzzzzz

[summer roost]

they have to do less work to sell it than a startup does.

[serene kindle]

they don't even have to sell it, they can pay people to use it forever and they would still make money from advertising or user data or something

[summer roost]

true enough

[sudden quartz]

startups are doomed from the getgo if you dont have a good face backing it. (a genius)

[summer roost]

whereas a startup needs to sell it (to individuals or to customers) in order to keep afloat

[sudden quartz]

You wont get funding. Startups are about doing something quick and stealing ideals first

[flint owl]

this went from "is game dev a stable career" to startups

[summer roost]

only 9 out of 10 startups fail within 5 years - are the other 1 out of 10 all backed by geniuses with good faces?

[sudden quartz]

Yea and the ratio is inaccurate

[summer roost]

hm, ok - I went by Forbes

[serene kindle]

genius+money goes a long way

[summer roost]

what ratio have you seen that's different?

[serene kindle]

if vitalik didn't get $100k from peter thiel ethereum probably would have failed idk

[sudden quartz]

I am just talking in terms of using "9 out of 10"

the real stats are more important for this

[summer roost]

so am I

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilpatel/2015/01/16/90-of-startups-will-fail-heres-what-you-need-to-know-about-the-10/?sh=780aa9616679

[sudden quartz]

for example, in the subset of VR, startups are even less successful

[summer roost]

and https://fortune.com/2014/09/25/why-startups-fail-according-to-their-founders/ is interesting as well - it puts the "got outcompeted" (including by a big company stealing the idea) at about 20% of failures. 80% fail for some other reason.

the biggest by far being "no market need"

actually, those percentages don't sum to 100, which must mean founders could pick multiple reasons why their startup failed

still, only 20% said "outcompeted", and 40% said that it was just not an idea they could sell to people.

[brittle thorn]

Platform capitalism

[serene kindle]

in my experience personally, big companies copy very aggressively. i don't blame them, it's hard not to copy someone that is solving a huge problem very well, it is normal in software. but of course it makes it insanely hard to monetize a startup

[sudden quartz]

to sum it up you need to be a genius to succeed and get funding. There will obviously be startups that are doomed to fail anyway for being bad ideas

[serene kindle]

tiktok is the most dramatic example, youtube shorts has like 15x the tiktok users

[summer roost]

40% of them, according to their founders in retrospect.

but mostly, you just need to get very lucky.

[sudden quartz]

it all goes back to being a genius dude

[summer roost]

being a genius helps, and being a good salesman helps, but the biggest component is still just luck. Right idea at the right time, at a point when you can sell it.

[serene kindle]

having a lot of funding helps too, because that's the only way to compete with a big company by engineering fast and not having to monetize it early on

[summer roost]

I know successful startup CEOs who would say they were lucky. I don't know any successful startup CEOs who would say that they're geniuses. Though to be fair, I only know 2 successful startup CEOs, so YMMV.

[brittle thorn]

So address a market too small for the bigs to notice and you have a chance or a market they ignore for any given reason

[flint owl]

Imo its all luck, just look at how tiktok and fortnite blew up from doing one thing differently than the others.

[brittle thorn]

But that means you probably be niche and never mainstream

[serene kindle]

funding does change it though, because once you have money like you kind of already won i guess

[sudden quartz]

nobody unironically calms themselves a genius, but they are genius first. then that initializes their chances by a ton. Im not saying they arent lucky because obviously there are more than one "genius" trying to do a startup and not all succeed. But if you arent genius, you have no chance

because you wont even get funding.

[brittle thorn]

Not necessary always some bootstrap

[summer roost]

that seems like you're just circularly defining "genius" based on outcomes, then, rather than based on any intrinsic characteristic they possessed before trying.

[serene kindle]

even to get an entry level software job paying $15/hour i have to sell myself as an insanely genius tech whiz, imagine trying to get $5m of funding for a tech startup

[summer roost]

in the US? That's an incredibly low paying job.

[sudden quartz]

"genius" in my terminology is based on previous achievements and perception of that. So if someone thinks they are smart, theyll be more likely to invest

internships pay higher than 15 dude

[summer roost]

I had internships in college 15 years ago that paid more than $15/hour. If that's what you're getting, you're not getting enough.

[serene kindle]

i got $16/hour for my first coding job, i had to sell myself so hard

[summer roost]

do you have a degree?

or, did you, rather

[brittle thorn]

It has to be hard to copy or else its doomed...call that a barrier to entry...low barrier more competition

[sudden quartz]

prob no degree right

[summer roost]

not necessarily; whatsapp succeeded despite being easy to copy

[brittle thorn]

Maybe you are lol

[serene kindle]

in my experience we were very intensely outengineered by big tech, it was insane how much money they dumped into their project, with even 1% of what they spent we would have been successful... but we got zero out of our entire effort

we definitely deserved to fail, but at the same time it was just a surprising event to me at that time

they even used chunks of our code/designs openly without citing jfl

[brittle thorn]

Luck as you said lol

[summer roost]

indeed

[serene kindle]

i don't blame them at all, in retrospect it was obvious just that i was super inexperienced back then at these things

[brittle thorn]

As I was with my startups

[serene kindle]

having the mass of users does seem to be valuable in terms of getting acquired by companies, but still i think getting acquired by a big company is way more reasonable an end goal than trying to forever compete

like, it's actually way easier to have a huge amount of initial funding, make a novel idea, get a mass of users, then sell to a big company because they value the ecosystem, than to actually try to go long term

[sudden quartz]

you have to be overqualified to get entry level jobs. A CS major is about prepared for every software and computer job on the market with what they have done. I suggest a student to pick one single technology then build on that once they enter college

[serene kindle]

for example if tiktok was a us company, if tiktok sells to microsoft for $5b they would win, but if they tried to go on forever they would basically become failed in the end

[sudden quartz]

i wish i studied kubernets for 4 years

[brittle thorn]

Yeah user base important even if not profitable

[sudden quartz]

what was your entry level pay?

[serene kindle]

user base can be sold to a big company, but it can also be bought using money(funding) + 'genius'(novel idea)

[summer roost]

my first job out of college paid $83k USD in 2009.

[sudden quartz]

what city/state?

[summer roost]

New Jersey, though working for a company based in NYC

[sudden quartz]

howd you get the position? granted its a dated entry

[summer roost]

applied, got accepted. Good GPA, several internships in college.

[serene kindle]

nah i wouldn't do stuff like that, i'd focus more on a field/specialty than on a technology, tech changes fast

[brittle thorn]

Ah if code is special i keep it in a private repo...

[flint owl]

True. sometimes stuff look so simple no one wants to copy it, then again the simpleness makes it successful. So it goes right back down to luck.

[summer roost]

and, got a lot of help with my resume from someone on IRC, which certainly helped. Paying it forward is part of why I'm active in this channel

[sudden quartz]

IRC?

[brittle thorn]

Correct in my long career that had been the case

[summer roost]

Chat. Like Discord but decentralized and older.

[serene kindle]

to be fair we were an open source project with the goal of setting the global standard of technology.

[brittle thorn]

Internet Relay Chat

[brittle thorn]

Ah the good guys

[sudden quartz]

its easy to predict which general technologies will be relevant for at least some jobs tbh

tech changing is overrated, it doesnt happen that crazily

[serene kindle]

in that sense we succeeded

[brittle thorn]

And failed so ironic

[serene kindle]

just that silly me, i thought the licenses would stop people from copying us, but that's just my lack of skill/understanding

[sudden quartz]

what was your entry level

[brittle thorn]

What Open Source License

[flint owl]

This gives me a lot to think about. Im still 15, getting into college this year so thats pretty dope. Still tryna find what exactly I wanna study in tech.

[serene kindle]

i mean, at least i thought they would cite us - apache

since then i just don't like open source anymore

[sudden quartz]

so youre a genius

[flint owl]

how so

[brittle thorn]

They could have just worked with you guys but if they do they have less control

[sudden quartz]

college typically happens at 17/18

[flint owl]

Oh nice. lmao

[serene kindle]

they very extremely outengineered us, they put in an insane amount of engineering into their project, 100x anything we could have done

[flint owl]

turning 16 this year if that changes anything LMAO

[serene kindle]

*100x anything we would have done even

[brittle thorn]

This is people being people ....yes they can be mean when money is on the line...

[serene kindle]

i get it though, it looks like a trend, big tech company employees will copy massive chunks of open source code without citation, because they want to get promoted

[summer roost]

are you in a commonwealth country?

[flint owl]

australia so i guess so

[summer roost]

yeah, "college" means something different to you than to redmagic

[flint owl]

oh nice

[true harness]

I was just as shocked lol. college in the US usually means the same as university

[flint owl]

LMAO yes going to college at 15 ezzz

[serene kindle]

to be fair i really don't blame the big tech for copying us, it is really natural, but it is also the reality

[brittle thorn]

Then they open source it later to give them the halo when they have established the monopoly already

[serene kindle]

yeah good point there

i think big tech companies open source projects mostly to get the free upgrading of the tech that makes them money, without having to endlessly compete with some other open source thing

[summer roost]

in my experience at a relatively big tech company, we're cautious about licenses. We won't copy anything that doesn't have a permissive license, we're careful against even linking against AGPL code, and we do include attributions when we copy any non-trivial amount of code from an OSS code base

[smoky quest]

that's absolutely not the truth

That's the best way to get fired and sued at the same time

Well, I could think of other ways that are better to get that outcome

[summer roost]

not many, though 🙂

it does depend on the company, to be fair - IP theft is rampant in some countries and pretty rare in others

[smoky quest]

that would not be included in big tech

[summer roost]

well, big Chinese tech companies have a reputation for IP theft - but yeah, it does depend on what you mean by "big tech"

[serene kindle]

if tiktok got IP for their tech, for example youtube shorts couldn't exist, imagine how huge tiktok would become

probably like trillion dollar company

[flint owl]

especially in lockdown yeah.

[summer roost]

did TikTok do anything patentable?

I'm not aware of anything particularly novel about TikTok's tech

[smoky quest]

on a more positive note, you can also observe a lot more open source tech coming from chinese companies

[brittle thorn]

They may not have the resources to fight it in court sadly

[serene kindle]

yeah that's why i didn't sue them, i was broke

[summer roost]

for violations of OSS licenses, the EFF is happy to get involved

[serene kindle]

thanks didn't think of that

i could probably make more money suing big companies for stealing tech and code than from outcompeting them

[smoky quest]

I empathize with the concept of the big tech took the idea and funded their own implementation. But I do have a hard time with a big tech company taking open source code and changing its license.

[serene kindle]

but i know that is not how it works in reality, given like a lot of articles i read of other people who got copied

[brittle thorn]

I had dealings gone bad too but didnt press it since it is a lot of stesss lol

[serene kindle]

to be fair at that time i would have been happy to just get a good job, it was just like an insult to injury to get something i invented copied so blatantly but being unworthy of the entry level job

especially since the same company called me to discuss my experience at that startup project, and i failed that interview haha

i mean the big tech company that copied my code, called me because of my experience in the startup project, explicitly saying the startup name, and then i failed that interview

[brittle thorn]

Lol a company made me sign a deed of assignment so I dont even have authorship

Code theft has many subtle forms

[serene kindle]

i just wish i knew all this before i even started

[smoky quest]

sorry if this was asked before and I missed it, but how come that open source project was so critical to your startup?

[serene kindle]

because when all the news articles talked about it they never mentioned us

[summer roost]

isn't that the norm? Work done for a company is typically considered "work for hire", and owned by the company

[serene kindle]

i mean when all the news articles talked about the big tech implementation, and everyone looked at what the big tech had done, our name didn't exist

[smoky quest]

Right, but most open source license only require them to put your name somewhere in a legal notice. They don't have to do more than that, as long as they comply with all the terms

[summer roost]

Apache 1.0 would require it to be included in their promotional materials - but most things these days don't use 1.0

[brittle thorn]

Wasnt the norm there when i got in but yeah

Yeah many of us complained but complied

[smoky quest]

Fair, but that would be advertisement about that feature. Not the typical end user or forbes advertisement

[serene kindle]

you're right it wouldn't have made a big difference

[smoky quest]

but yeah, that's unfortunate. Big corps have some issues and are slow to move, but they can have a lot of firepower and reach

[summer roost]

were you an employee of a company, or a contractor/consultant?

[brittle thorn]

Must have been a big deal to be in the news

[serene kindle]

anytime a big tech company does anything it is in the news...

[serene kindle]

though i admit in this case it was a very surprisingly large engineering effort, so yes it was a big deal in terms of massive engineering effort

even the news article was basically surprised at the largeness of the engineering effort

it was like 'wow the big tech did a huge amount of engineering doing this thing'

[brittle thorn]

Lol an innocent employee unaware of IP lawyers back then

[serene kindle]

yeah unfortunately IP lawyer before getting a tech job is like a must, i wish i knew

[brittle thorn]

Made me want to join them in spite lo

[summer roost]

if you were an employee, then it was work for hire. That's been the case since at least 1976:

The circumstances in which a work is considered a "work made for hire" is determined by the United States Copyright Act of 1976 as either

(1) a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment; or ...

[smoky quest]

work for hire is pretty much standard. It avoids lot of potential issues

[serene kindle]

this is about people who invent massive amount of things before getting a job

[brittle thorn]

Many share that feeling

[smoky quest]

you can also use companies like rocketlawyer to get cheap advice here and there

[brittle thorn]

Yes

[serene kindle]

it's mostly on me though i am just generally really naive and new to tech

[brittle thorn]

You bring your code base into the job