career-advice

[smoky quest]

whether private or not, wouldn't have as much impact as having a degree or not.
Going to a more reputed school would bring a better professional and support network but wouldn't necessarily give you a better education

[shadow bay]

Maybe there’s just some different generational , geographical , or other , experiences/views at play here

[smoky quest]

I have passed many stanford/Berkley/georgia tech type of folks for no-name universities

[smoky quest]

What do you mean? I am talking about 2021. Are you referring to something special?

[shadow bay]

I was just assuming that we’re separated in our experiences by age , or other factors

[smoky quest]

maybe. But how do you see it as impacting the relative meritocratic aspect?

[shadow bay]

SWE == Software Engineer ?

[shadow bay]

Well , I may not have the most objective perspective on the meritocracy . The older I grew , the less I chose to engage in any meritorious pursuits . Most probably influenced by personal experience & observation of my peers — making themselves quite miserable over grades and such

I essentially made it my mission to prove it to them , that they’ll just give you a diploma lol . And they did of course

[summer roost]

roughly how old are you? I'm in my mid-to-late 30s, and can say that it's relatively common to see software developers 10 years older than me at corporate jobs without any college degree, but quite uncommon to see software developers 10 years younger than me landing corporate jobs without a college degree.

which is largely, I think, due to the increase in availability of degrees that are relevant to software development - they're much more accessible in the 21st century than they were in the 20th.

[smoky quest]

We may also put different meaning behind meritocracy.
By meritocracy, I mean that anyone can have a shot at a great career and moving up and doing whatever make them happy. If you deliver, you do have a shot and that's what I have seen overall. Obviously, there are always cases of nepotism and who would refuse to help their family or friends, but there is also enough space for people to succeed

[shadow bay]

— That being said , during my senior year , I had an AP CompSci class that I actually got to teach , which I was graded on . I’m still proud of that fact , though I’m not sure it’s intimately connected with the meritocratic aspect . I think I just enjoyed , in that instance , getting to share my knowledge

[smoky quest]

There can also be a difference in career between people tagging along just to get the degree, and the folks going above and beyond. The latter would in general end up in better places

[summer roost]

the latter generally learn more 🤷

[dry sapphire]

there are different ways of assessing merit. some places value formal certification greatly (which can be seen as anti-meritocratic because of the increased cost of further education)

[smoky quest]

that also translate pretty well when you reach your late 30s and the latter group starts talking about retiring now while the former can't.

[summer roost]

indeed.

[summer roost]

at the entry level, or the experienced/senior level? Other than maybe certs for AWS or Azure, I don't think i've ever seen any SWE certs that are valued in the US for senior hires

[smoky quest]

too many certs can actually scare recruiters/managers, for swe

[dry sapphire]

when I say "certification", I mean any formal qualification

[summer roost]

ah, so including degrees?

[dry sapphire]

yeah

[summer roost]

gotcha.

[dry sapphire]

although I am surprised you say that AWS certs matter too; perhaps I should finish my professional Solutions Architect?

[summer roost]

I said "maybe" 😄

[dry sapphire]

nobody has ever said anything about my Specialty ML (that I took for fun anyway)

also was there any reason you omitted GCP?

[summer roost]

aren't they smaller than both AWS and Azure?

[dry sapphire]

a quick Google search suggests GCP has ~7% market share and Azure 19%

[summer roost]

AFAIK, fewer companies use Google Cloud stuff, and the ones that do tend to rely less heavily on it/be less integrated with it

[dry sapphire]

I personally have never used Azure, but I find GCP a lot nicer to work with than AWS

sensible names "App Engine" vs "Elastic Beanstalk" 🥴 and a more organised console

but I suppose AWS has a huge first mover advantage going for it

[summer roost]

indeed. And Azure wins if you, for some reason, want Windows servers.

[shadow bay]

Exactly that — I think that ‘accessibility’ is largely influenced by social standing , blind obedience level , socioeconomic advantages , etc. — but the diploma saturation level affects their intrinsic market value , the same way printing money causes inflation

Oh , I’m 22 btw

[smoky quest]

It's also a lot more complicated than 20years ago

[shadow moss]

I think that's survival bias. Those without degrees but older then you either made it or moved on

[shadow moss]

GCP is also baby first cloud, if you can handle AWS/Azure, you can handle GCP

[summer roost]

I don't think it's survival bias, so much as that they're (literally) grandfathered in. They're holdovers from a generation where degrees weren't necessary, who managed to retain jobs in a generation where degrees are necessary based on their work history and experience.

[smoky quest]

I also remember an interesting comparisons between the three, where azure was the most high level in terms of abstractions in their services, aws the lowest level and gcp in between

[brittle thorn]

100% true

[shadow moss]

Degree attainment tend to climb the younger someone is, and difference between are single digit % points. I think issue for Jr Developers are COVID (it's hard to onboard remote) and offshoring for Americas hitting hard

[shadow bay]

In a way , it’s easier — streamlined for efficiency — “pay us a boatload , come hang out for awhile , then receive your degree” … it’s almost a guarantee now

[shadow moss]

https://www.equityinhighered.org/indicators/u-s-population-trends-and-educational-attainment/educational-attainment-by-age/

[smoky quest]

if a degree is just about hanging out, I think you missed a lot of opportunities. It can be so much more

[shadow moss]

AWS/Azure are more complex then GCP. GCP selling point is "We are simple and cheap for those who need simple and cheap"

[brittle thorn]

I have observed that myself without seeing that comparison lol

[shadow bay]

that’s not me sharing my perspective on the issue , that’s strictly an observation as to the state and efficacy of “higher education” today

[ocean ledge]

mmm, this is some high quality bait

[summer roost]

"pay us a boatload" is already only true of private universities.

[shadow moss]

i've mostly worked on Azure with some GCP and little AWS. Azure/AWS were complex with AWS naming scheme being awful. GCP was sooooooooooooooooooo limited

[smoky quest]

yeah they try, but they were so immature up until the last 1-2 years. (I mean gcp)

[shadow moss]

I worked at FinTech F500 with security requirements, our CTO loved Google because he was massive Boomer. GCP was PAINFUL, about half the services didn't meet the security requirements compared to AWS being 95% and Azure being 92%

[shadow bay]

I guess that depends on one’s available resources and support network

[smoky quest]

I feel the pain. They also had massive changes in their libraries every few months

[shadow moss]

On the career stuff, I wouldn't worry about GCP, if you know AWS (My Recommendation) or Azure, most people who need GCP are willing for learning uptick

[summer roost]

I don't think it does. State universities, even without any financial aid, will cost somewhere around $30k for a CS degree, which - while not insignificant - is around 1/3 of your expected starting salary, so hardly a huge burden.

[shadow moss]

My primary cloud is Azure which has excellent Python support but AWS is just everywhere.

[shadow moss]

What year is it?

[shadow bay]

the only redeeming factors I’ve observed are , like @smoky quest said , the “folks going above and beyond” , i.e. the medical programs , law school , etc.

[shadow moss]

my very decent technical state school is 14k yearly before room+board

[summer roost]

that's your passive aggressive way of saying what, exactly?

[smoky quest]

last time there was a similar discussion, I believe CA tuition for in-state was around 12k$/year (unless my memory is failing)

[shadow moss]

you haven't looked at University costs in a while

[brittle thorn]

what are we dealing with as the function to measure merit? Skill, experience, schooling , etc its a multidimensional thing and some might give a higher weight to any of those dimensions.. age discrimination for example is anti meritocratic with respect to age but those that do might give weight to being more up to date or flexible

[smoky quest]

yep, age discrimination is totally not meritocratic.
It's also made complicated by the lack of clear career ladder for ICs

[brittle thorn]

I have seen that myself as a 40+

[summer roost]

eh, fair enough. OK, 2x what I said - which is still less than your expected starting salary by a good deal.

[smoky quest]

And there are also much fewer architects than there are directors+ by the nature of a business

[shadow moss]

Starting salary is going to be 60-80k depending

[smoky quest]

lmao not again

[shadow moss]

unless you are talking FAANG or Silicon valley which COL is going to destroy that great salary

[summer roost]

median across the entire US is over $100k

[shadow moss]

where are you getting that stat?

[smoky quest]

#career-advice message

Also nowadays, new grads would expect 6 digits starting salary across the US, higher in higher COLs

[summer roost]

https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries

[shadow moss]

Let's go with agency that draws this info

[shadow bay]

the meritocracy is just a candy coating , serving up fresh praise to the patrons of the obedience schools within … 😶‍🌫️

[smoky quest]

why not?

[shadow moss]

Computer Programmers according to BLS make 95k yearly across entire US:
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#15-0000

[shadow bay]

why not what ?

[shadow moss]

109 if you include 'Software and Web Developers, Programmers, and Testers'

[smoky quest]

why is it just candy coating and how does that relate to obedience?

[summer roost]

I don't live in a high COL area, and I don't know anyone who makes that little. Not one person.

[smoky quest]

yeah that's in line considering it's from 2020/05

[shadow moss]

but that's across entire United States and all job types

[summer roost]

it's probably including some people who wouldn't call themselves "software developers" - like QA

[brittle thorn]

I agree with this

[smoky quest]

also if it helps, $JOB is not faang, nor is it in silicon valley, and we do hire at 6 digits across the whole USA. It's also reflected with the competition we get during compensation negotiations from comparables

[shadow moss]

and last job we had Jr. Developer making 67k and Senior QA making 97k, BLS gathers a ton of this data and they say 109k for SWE which is all levels, 60-70k for Jr Dev doesn't sounds awful

[shadow moss]

for Jr. Devs, $currentjob pays more for non jrs but Jrs start around 70k-80k

[summer roost]

that $109k says "Software and Web Developers, Programmers, and Testers" - and I expect testers to make quite a lot less.

[smoky quest]

do you have issues hiring with such low comp?

[shadow moss]

15-1251 Computer Programmers detail 178,140 1.8% 1.281 $42.88 $45.98 $95,640 1.6%

[shadow bay]

like I said about the high school diplomas , being quite literally handed out to anyone who sticks around , thus proving their willingness to submit and obey , provided they receive their merits — then add a financial scam on top for the collegiate level

[shadow moss]

most programming is submit and obey, I've got 5 API to write, no one got time for you to be special

[smoky quest]

I am so confused. What makes you think HS is about teaching obedience and sticking around?
That's a pretty unorthodox take on the subject

[summer roost]

so your argument is that testers are pulling up the average? that seems wrong

[shadow moss]

Considering I've met one American On Shore jr. dev, not sure

[smoky quest]

fair enough. On our side, we do see a fair bit of competition for the good ones

[shadow moss]

I have no idea, it could be job classification. Most FAANG jobs tend to call them Software Engineer vs most boring places are "Computer Programmer" so that be screwing up BLS stats

I will point out that .9% of their stats are 'Software and Web Developers, Programmers, and Testers" vs 1.6% who are "Computer Programmers"

so more likely COmputer Programmers are more numerous so it's likely a better number

[brittle thorn]

The once that just chase the degree end up in bad places. I know a relativd that ended up working initially as a bank clerk after finishing CS in a reputable uni... I was simply doing my banking and it was a shock and a nice experience at the same time. Later I heard a rumor that he paid someone to do this thesis/ CS project for him to graduate...he moved up the ladder eventually and is now a Project Manager .. He was never a coder

[shadow moss]

We don't do anything that "Hot" it's making business more technical, our work is important but it's nothing earth shattering

write a WebAPI to reach into this database to display this information for this SPA someone is writing

[brittle thorn]

But note the setback isnt final...he moved up

[shadow moss]

and then tie these 5 systems together with duct tape and hope for the best

[smoky quest]

project manager isn't up though. They have their own ladder. that's also not a job I envy

[shadow bay]

Case in point , finesse the system & come out on top

[brittle thorn]

I say he moved up relative to his starting point and is now happy

[ocean ledge]

to disparage education entirely is just edginess-- if your life isn't going the way you want, just accept it and move on

[smoky quest]

yep. And CS is so much larger than just writing code. There are product management, technical sales, support, SA, technical doc, dev relationships, build and release, operations...

[shadow moss]

welcome to real world

[brittle thorn]

We should stop comparing ourselves with others and be more happy ..lol

[shadow moss]

please leave Ops for DevOps daddy 😉

[shadow bay]

Yeah no shit , why is that a hot take

[smoky quest]

project managers won't make as much as swe and won't be as rewarded either.
It's not because there is manager in the title that it's glamorous :p

[smoky quest]

lol
Why? I didn't list these roles in a derogatory manner. I am very much a fan of devops and all associated tooling

[shadow moss]

Nothing, as SRE, watching former programmers doing SRE work gives me PTSD

[smoky quest]

it's so much fun though. Immediate visible results and direct contacts with your users

[shadow moss]

it's a path for SWE but it's different and most don't understand

[brittle thorn]

Seeing all that expensive education go to waste on someone is sad .. yeah i agree PM is more management than CS... but everybody has his own path.. lol i wasted my own Chemistry Degree and worked in IT

[shadow bay]

Steady, secure position in a supervisory role is about as good as the average American could hope for , sadly — most people are just keeping the bills paid , living life on repeat

[smoky quest]

That's on them. They had opportunities and wasted them.
Some people change degrees and still take tons of learning from that.

[smoky quest]

That's neither secure nor supervisory.
Manager in the title doesn't mean they control things. The main problem with project managers is they control nothing and still try to herd a bunch of cats

And they get blamed on both sides. One because they annoy teams with tedious process and the other because they can't provide enough visibility

[shadow bay]

I feel like that’s likely a toss up , whether the role is as-described ?

[smoky quest]

I am basing my answer on the typical expectations

[shadow bay]

You typically hate all PMs ?

[smoky quest]

I feel bad for them. They have a tough job. Tons of spreadsheets and no rewards

[ivory sluice]

that is so accurate

[smoky quest]

I am frequently one of the cats who annoy them

because process hates self organizing teams and agile methodology.

[summer roost]

Really, thinking that "project manager" is a supervisory role makes it seem like you're not very familiar with the role. The job of a project manager is to liase between the development team and the business or sales side of things. They're not above developers, they're at the same depth in the org hierarchy doing a different job.

[brittle thorn]

I had a batchmate from my uni end up in a starbucks ...lol he served my coffee ...not related to the degree or engineering or maths that he definitely took lol. He wasnt a good student but the UnI had a good rep ...same with my relative that ended up as a bank clerk

[shadow bay]

The real problem is that they’re financially in a corner & have to keep the pseudo-manager position … then it becomes part of life on repeat — if you give a mouse a cookie :: if you give an employee a title

[smoky quest]

I had a friend who was an uber geek and went all the way for a MS in CS. But he got the calling of cooking and went into culinary school to become a chef

[brittle thorn]

Good out of the box thinking i approve and more should do that

[shadow moss]

Best idea, these computer things were a mistake

[smoky quest]

after the market crash of 2001, many software engineers had to convert to other jobs too. Be it real estate agents or others

I wouldn't see myself doing that, but I admire the people being able to take such a risk and jumping in a completely new job

[smoky quest]

This is actually pretty sad.
They are stuck there and know they won't be able to go any further in their career. They also know that finding another job will be a struggle as well.

[shadow bay]

There’s a generational divide there , and imo it stems from the degradation of educational quality

[shadow bay]

Compared to this type of person . It is sad . It’s unfortunately rather acceptable to languish at a point

[smoky quest]

lol, it's not like I don't interact or interview or doesn't get close to new grads

[shadow bay]

Not a rebuke , just an opinion

[smoky quest]

But I do agree, that the us school system pre-university is not known for being at the forefront

[shadow bay]

I think people would really be surprised at just how far the quality of education has really dropped , and so precipitously

Maybe it’s a conjunctive decline in cognitive exercise , adding phones , media , etc to the mix

[smoky quest]

that's a more political investment in school imho

It's a common thing to hear across immigrants that the school here is too easy

[summer roost]

I think you're wrong on the timeline, honestly. I graduated from college 12 years ago. My youngest sister graduated 6 years ago. I'm not so out of the loop.

[smoky quest]

are we boomers now?

[summer roost]

And I graduated into the great recession.

[summer roost]

fuckin' apparently! 😄

[shadow bay]

Lmao

[summer roost]

I think there are people who went to college in the 70s who are wildly off about the value proposition of college in 2020

I think people who went to college in the 00s and 10s are not nearly so off about the value as you think.

[smoky quest]

note also as boomers like us interview new grads, we do get to see a sizeable amount of candidates, and can compare across them. You can see trends between non-degrees vs degrees

[shadow bay]

Every generation does seem to make the claim that they’ve had it tougher than the last , and that they aren’t so out of touch , etc. — it’s actually almost strangely traditional , I read a book that detailed the generational history of it

[brittle thorn]

Lol I remember the pre bubble optimism I miss it

[smoky quest]

I don't see any claims with regards to having it easier or tougher

[brittle thorn]

No Im Gen X and im probably older than you

Ok not boomer lol

[summer roost]

I think you're overestimating the rate of change. You've had less time to acquire perspective.

I graduated with ~$100k in student loan debt from a private university, in the first year of the great recession, despite decent scholarships.

I'm aware that college is expensive, and that someone can't work a part time job to pay for it.

[shadow bay]

Do you regret any particular decision , either way ?

[summer roost]

Maybe. I wonder if a state college would have been a better call than the private uni, given that it costs less than half as much. On the one hand, the degree would have been roughly as valuable. On the other, I'd have had fewer internship opportunities (my program included 3 6-month internships in a 5 year program), and I attribute those internships to helping me figure out what type of development I most enjoy and giving me a pretty good idea of how my value stacks up to other developers.

[brittle thorn]

Im lucky to have relatively rich parents non of that student loan but I graduated in 1996.. Pre bubble was fun and exciting so I went into IT

[summer roost]

that puts you as much older than me as I am than vslim, I suppose 🙂

I've heard pre-bubble was fun, but bursting bubble wasn't

[brittle thorn]

Yeah

[smoky quest]

also you are still in your early 20s.
You have tons of time to reach whatever goal you want.

don't hesitate to push for it

[brittle thorn]

After bubble I tried Teaching High School for a year then went back to IT but i always had my IT sidelines that earned good money for less time investment

[summer roost]

I think you really shouldn't underestimate just how many doors a degree will open to you. Getting a degree for as cheap as you can get it might be a really good call.

[brittle thorn]

Yes

[gray ingot]

heya, i hope this is the right chat, but i want to learn how to code, does anyone know how i can start?

[shadow bay]

Lol University of Phoenix worth anything ?

[summer roost]

not really the right channel - you'd have better luck in #python-discussion , but check out:

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[gray ingot]

Tysm 😅

[summer roost]

more than nothing, but less than whatever your state's state school is

community colleges/state schools wil teach you the same material, and give you the piece of paper that helps open doors, even if you're looking to get the best value for the least time and effort.

[shadow bay]

most of the people I know went to UTKnox or UTChatt (TN)

any others went to various community colleges , and the rest just right to the workforce

[summer roost]

you're just too early to be able to see how that worked out for people. In about 4 years, when the people who went right to the workforce are 8 years in and the people who went to college are 4 years into their career, you'll have better perspective on which one paid off best

I strongly suspect it will turn out to be the latter - that the ones who went to college will start at higher pay and climb ranks faster, and be more able to switch jobs to follow better opportunities

[shadow bay]

Well , a high percentage didn’t even finish it out & get the papers

I know one who made it through , nursing now . Another becoming a teacher . The only two that come to mind

[smoky quest]

I concur with jollygeek. From what I have observed across different companies/groups/teams/etc. is the people with a degree will move up higher and faster.
The folks without a degree may get a job sooner but will hit a wall and earn less. (generally because they don't do as well in theory and abstract reasoning, but that's my opinion)

[shadow bay]

And they were the AP kids . The “folks going above and beyond”

[summer roost]

generally because they don't do as well in theory and abstract reasoning
Possibly, but also less transferability (some companies want a degree even with experience), and possibly lower self-esteem (or less knowledge of their worth) playing a factor as well

[shadow bay]

The best I’ve been able to do for myself was ~$35k/yr a couple years ago , freelancing

[smoky quest]

I actually didn't think about transferability but that's a great point. I was more thinking in terms of who would be promoted or who would I promote to manager.
And yes, tons of lower self-esteem! That's pretty bad and too frequent

[shadow bay]

Idk how I did it , nor how to redo it ☹️

[summer roost]

that really is quite low for this industry, and the piece of paper might be much more valuable to you than you think

[smoky quest]

Since you have some experience, you could also give a try to brushing up on leetcode and applying to a few positions to see how it goes

[shadow bay]

It might be worth something in another city/area … I’m not aware of a single place to work I could even possibly apply my skills toward

[shadow bay]

I used to be on the PPCG StackExchange a lot . And StackOverflow somewhat also . CodeWars , a few others that now elude my memory

https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/
https://codewars.com/

[summer roost]

have you ever tried applying to corporate jobs?

[shadow bay]

Is that similar to leetcode ?

[summer roost]

I believe codewars is pretty similar to leetcode, yeah - programming challenges that usually have a clever algorithmic solution

[shadow bay]

Not really . Like I said , I don’t even know of a single corporate business I could work for in my area

[true harness]

codewars tends to have easier problems, and they aren't all algorithmic like leetcode

[summer roost]

got it. Then maybe try leetcode as well.

Or Advent of Code, for that matter 😄

[shadow bay]

And most corporate don’t take me seriously at 22 anyway

[summer roost]

If you haven't applied, how do you know?

[smoky quest]

Apply to remote jobs too.

And it will be common to do 1-2 medium leetcode during the interview and sometimes 1 hard.
Note that while some companies/interviewer suck, the overall goal is more to see how you would think/behave and thus should not involve knowing or not a clever trick

[shadow bay]

With no degree , but I can code circles around their college grads smh

[true harness]

why not apply then

[summer roost]

if you think you've got the skills, then applying is a good call. If you're trying to apply without a degree, a bootcamp or some certs could help.

[smoky quest]

applications get reviewed by recruiter/hiring manager. The application is a whole resume, not just which degree you have.
So put some emphasis on your resume about your experience and skills

[smoky quest]

also if it's that easy for you, then get that degree. If will be easy as well 🙂

[summer roost]

And if not, the fact that someone has been paying you to do work in this area is valuable, even if they'd likely prefer a degree.

[brittle thorn]

I had a friend who has post grad studies there lol he would probably say yes just for the degree its better than nothing and he has a good job

[brittle thorn]

Yes

[true harness]

"8 of 32" you sure that isn't a CV

[shadow bay]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

I couldn’t tell u the difference in the two

[smoky quest]

Can you post a pdf whenever you get back to a computer?
That will make it easier for both of us

I can't select from a picture, and want to make sure the format would be readable by an ATS

but the main thing so far is the lack of technical details. Like you did some apis, but there isn't much to it (language? impact?)

[summer roost]

for someone your age, a resume should be one page when printed on 8.5x11, and a CV might be 4 or 5. CVs are more detailed.

[shadow bay]

That’s (8 of 32) documents in the cloud folder I’m viewing

[true harness]

ah, that would do it

[summer roost]

ah 😄

[shadow bay]

Mines one & a half on 8.5x11

[summer roost]

Technical details, and information on impact - how much money did you save? How much more effective is the new process? How many projects did the team you were project-managing deliver? Etc.

[summer roost]

That's a bit short - you might want to ask for some help fleshing it out, in that case. A good rule of thumb is that your resume should be exactly one page - not more, not less.

[true harness]

isn't 1.5 > 1? unless 1 page means front and back?

[summer roost]

ah, I misread

in that case, you might want some help pruning/finessing it 😄

[shadow bay]

I’ll just prune my name and contact details away . That ought to cut it . Lol

[summer roost]

resumes are kinda like flyers advertising a concert, or the like - there's very specific expectations about what's on it, how big it is, how it's laid out, etc

[shadow bay]

I don’t do a whole lot of applying online … typically if I’m using one of my resumes , I’m handing out copies or something

[brittle thorn]

Cut that to one or two pages pls

[shadow bay]

That screenshot is pretty much the entirety of it . If I reformat it , I could probably get it onto a single page

[brittle thorn]

It is about risk mitigation for employers if you are already working for them or has a track record they view you as low risk ..but if you arent that a degree can help you be a lower risk bet than the others

[graceful mason]

It's worth keeping in mind that coding is not synonymous with software development/engineering - there's a lot more social and technical skills that both HR and team leads will be looking for when recruiting

[summer roost]

quite true, but for new grads/junior developers coding is a very big part of it

the social skills become more important as you grow and develop

[vapid jay]

hi all

new to this group and basically new to python in my quest to be a data scientist

[low scaffold]

@summer roost hii

[summer roost]

hi

[low scaffold]

so for dunkin donuts i was gonna write

• provided fast and friendly customer service
• Worked as a cashier, took orders, made food, and clean
• Worked with a team in order to provide the highest satisfaction to the customer
• Interacted with thousands of dollars in the cashflow
  -Provided customer service when needed.
  -Used POS system to collect cash and was able to operate it fully.

[summer roost]

did you do any closing or opening shifts?

[low scaffold]

nah

[summer roost]

or cash drops?

[low scaffold]

whats that

[summer roost]

counting out cash from the register and dropping it into a safe

[low scaffold]

i did but not always? does it still count

[summer roost]

yep, still counts.

[low scaffold]

also my manager gave me like thousands of dollars in cash to deposit in a bank

[summer roost]

also worth noting.

[low scaffold]

how do i write these two^^^ in words

[summer roost]

your customer service expertise and cleaning skills will probably not be useful to you in a software jobs, so your goal is to play up things that emphasize that you're good at following orders, and you're trustworthy

[low scaffold]

cybersecurity related and i thought customer service would help bc of communication

[summer roost]

also, unless you're deliberately trying to pad out your resume with extra stuff, I'd keep a non-software job to 2 or 3 bullet points

[low scaffold]

its for internship i just wanna add whatever cuz i dont have much experience yet so atleast company needs to see im worth it if that makes sense

[summer roost]

it makes sense, but the most impressive thing you'll be able to point out is the stuff that plays up trustworthiness

[low scaffold]

ok then can u write me cash drops and manager tursting me with thousands of dollars in notes for depositing in bank plz in better wording ofc

[zenith lotus]

Hey do you guys know any sites to help with interview questions?

[low scaffold]

nope

[zenith lotus]

Stack overflow it is

[smoky quest]

like google?
When I type "interview questions for <X>", I do get tons of answers

[zenith lotus]

Meh mostly on interview problems they would ask you to solve, I'm just trying to brush up on that to make sure I dont bomb this internship.

[low scaffold]

where did u get internship and what state

[smoky quest]

leetcode has a list of questions per company, but you do need to pay for that. Glassdoor also has some questions if candidates filled that out

[zenith lotus]

Ny

[low scaffold]

what website u used to apply for internship and what company

[zenith lotus]

Thanks ill check it out

[summer roost]

So, something like:

• Performed restaurant duties including food prep, cleaning, helping customers, and managing the register
• Counted cash and performed occasional cash drops and bank runs for thousands of dollars
• Cooperated with a team to manage wait times at the restaurant during peak hours

Give or take.

[zenith lotus]

Its spotify for their summer internship, I can send the link you need

[low scaffold]

holy shit yes plz

[zenith lotus]

Np man

[low scaffold]

wait but do they have jobs related to security

[zenith lotus]

Most likely they would have cyber security related positions, But I can check for ya

[low scaffold]

this for everything??? for dunkin?

[low scaffold]

thanks if they do then can u send link too plz

[zenith lotus]

np

[zenith lotus]

ill send it in dms

[low scaffold]

thanks alot

[summer roost]

I think that covers all the most important parts of your original bullets, yeah. If you need to pad it out further you can add more, but people generally know what working at a fast food place involves, so the things that are worth playing up are the extra things that show that you were more trusted than the average fast food employee

[zenith lotus]

np homie

[low scaffold]

i see thanks now two more can i ask haha

[zenith lotus]

sure np

[low scaffold]

next is teahcers assistant for Kumon do u know that? @summer roost

[summer roost]

dunno what "Kumon" is, but what bullets do you have?

[low scaffold]

so i dont have any for that but i will write now

• assisted students from preschool to 12th grade with math and english problems
  -evaluated and recorded students progression
  i could def add alittle more idk what tho

[summer roost]

so you provided individualized help? Might be worth mentioning that you tried to tailor the help to students' individual needs

and yeah, it's good to note that you were trusted to grade, and to play a part in the evaluation process

[low scaffold]

so keep exactly what i said?

also motivated students and keep them focused and also communicated with parents about students progress

[summer roost]

• Assisted students from preschool to 12th grade with math and English
• Provided individualized help based on students' specific needs
• Assisted with grading and evaluating students' progress

or something along those lines.

[low scaffold]

• Assisted students from preschool to 12th grade with math and English
• Provided individualized help based on students' specific needs
• Assisted with grading and evaluating students' progress and communicate with parents about it
• Kept students involved and motivated in learning

[summer roost]

communicating, not communicate

but sure, looks good

you also want to keep your resume to no more than 1 page

[low scaffold]

its already over one page.....

[summer roost]

then you definitely want to remove some bullets, or tweak your line spacing and margins to get it to fit on one page

[low scaffold]

online it says in 2021 most resumes are 2 pages no more

[summer roost]

most people have been working for about 20 years.

[smoky quest]

may want to remove "assisted". The first one could be replaced with another word like "tutored". The second is underselling what you did

[summer roost]

for someone who is applying for their first industry job, I'd really keep it to exactly 1 page.

[low scaffold]

thats crazy cuz i have decent info which i lowkey need to put it assuming if there is more on resume i will get more internships lmao

[summer roost]

that's not a good assumption. You're more likely to get internships based on understanding the rules of resume writing than on packing your resume with every potentially relevant fact about yourself

resumes are like posters, ads - they're designed to just show the most important highlights.

[low scaffold]

lemme finish one more work experience and then i put my resume here and make it short?

now its doordash

so i delivered food

[summer roost]

for things like doordash and dunkin, I really think you need very few bullet points. People basically know what the job involves without even needing to read your bullet points.

[low scaffold]

ok but doordash would have communicating skills, doing every delivery on time

[summer roost]

Those bullet points would take up valuable space that could better be used on something else.

[smoky quest]

the rule of thumb is your resume has 10-15s at most to get the reviewer interested. Past that, it's discarded

[low scaffold]

then multitasking with collaborating

unless u guys have better way to say it

[smoky quest]

don't see your resume as stuffing all the possible skills in existence. See it more like a story to sell yourself.
The benefit of it is you control the narrative. So what do you want people to remember about you? What should they care about?

Sometimes I get a 5+ pages resume with just a long list of boring/trivial items (ex: "wrote unit tests") that are even copy/pasted across all the jobs. These are instant reject as they can't communicate clearly their value

[low scaffold]

wait u r a recruiter???????

[smoky quest]

so it's a long way for me to say that maybe your doordash experience does not warrant any bullet points so you can save some space for actual projects?

[smoky quest]

no. I lead things on the product/engineering side. So I do hire

[low scaffold]

oh damnn well so what do i do for doordash? have no bullets?

[smoky quest]

if you have nothing to say, then say nothing, especially if you are already short on space

Imagine the person reading your resume, what should they learn from that experience they would not learn from your other skills/experience? What are you trying to tell them?

[low scaffold]

like i did deliveries on time, communicated with customers and worked collaboratively while multitasking

how do i put it in better words tho

[smoky quest]

how does that help with your internship?

[summer roost]

get yourself in the head of someone who writes ad copy. Your resume is a one-page advertisement selling you. Your goal is to give people all the highlights that explain exactly why someone should pick you, out of all the possible options they have.

[smoky quest]

just put a single line like that if you really want to.
But, while doordash is great as a side gig, it's not exactly a high value added job for an engineering career

[low scaffold]

yeah but i am putting it bc i dont have anything elsr to put and im applying for internship rn

[smoky quest]

you don't have projects, even from school? maybe group projects too?

[low scaffold]

i do obv i will show u my resume in couple minutes and hopefully someone can help me shrink it down

ok so my resume is like 1 and about 3/4 page

[smoky quest]

so needs to be reduced by half

[low scaffold]

here

[inner wren]

Hey @low scaffold!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[low scaffold]

how do i show u guys the resume

[zenith lotus]

try to screen shot it

[smoky quest]

noooo, please no pic

pdf is best. It makes it easier to select and paste

[zenith lotus]

true that

[low scaffold]

i tried pdf it didnt let me

[smoky quest]

can you host it somewhere and send a link?

Or ask in #community-meta ?

[low scaffold]

i got screenshot should i send or i can dm u the resume and we come back here?

[zenith lotus]

hey is vba still a thing?

[smoky quest]

dm is fine then

[low scaffold]

done

[smoky quest]

• Way too much space in general
• The dash lines look ugly
• Your skills section is pretty poor. Add languages, network, db, technologies, etc.
• You spend more time talking about your part time jobs than your projects

[low scaffold]

where or how do i make it less spaced

also im trying to get internship related to security

[smoky quest]

your resume does not contain anything about security

so why would I put you in the box for security?

[summer roost]

Most everywhere. Each of your projects could fit on a single line, and Your Relevant Skills section could fit entirely on one line like you did for your Relevant Courses section. I'd remove all the --- lines, and use bold on the headings instead. Your Additional Information could be shrunk down to one line, like "I am undertaking a minor in Statistics and a focus on Cybersecurity".

[low scaffold]

bc i want to learn and passionate about it ig

[smoky quest]

yet, the only time the word security appears is at the very end

[low scaffold]

lmao

[smoky quest]

that's a bold assumption to think they will wait to read all the way to the end

[low scaffold]

but that falls in additional information do i prioritize before work?

[smoky quest]

I typically recommend to take a top down approach. So that's ok if the details are missed as long as the main points are made. To that end, it's fine to put your objective just before the skills

[low scaffold]

ahhh i see

should i put volunterr or work experience before cuz i heard volunteering helps too

[smoky quest]

My recommendations for you would be to expand on the projects and skills, and reduce your part time jobs/volunteer as one lines

even going as far as making sure your projects are cleaned up and uploaded on github and linked on your resume

[low scaffold]

can i atleast add this extra information on linked in

[smoky quest]

yeah that's more lenient. As long as it doesn't distract the reader or get put first. Otherwise you are gonna loose some of your audience

[low scaffold]

hm wellll

[smoky quest]

don't get me wrong. Your volunteer experience is awesome and does demonstrate character. But that's pretty low in the list of things I care about when hiring an engineer

[low scaffold]

i see

[smoky quest]

and if I don't see the things I care about, then I will not give you a call and move on to the next 21564 candidates

[low scaffold]

ok wait so lets start from beginning what do u want me to do first, move additional info before work exp right?

[smoky quest]

• Move your career objectives to before the skills
• Remove the dash lines
• Rework your skills and remove "relevant"
• Reduce your side jobs to one liners
• Expand on your projects

[summer roost]

I'd suggest having an explicit Education section - some ATS systems won't parse your resume without it. Once you've got Education, you can add the focus in cybersec and the minor in stats under your education section

[low scaffold]

and make that one line - I am undertaking a minor in Statistics and a focus on Cybersecurity with a certificate

[summer roost]

ah, actually - you kinda do have an Education section, it's just formatted differently than all your other sections. The focus on cybersec and the stats minor could be bullets under that Education section

[smoky quest]

it's also split

[low scaffold]

jeez

[smoky quest]

like the last paragraph should be in the education. It also contains way too much conditionals

[low scaffold]

should i keep it as a para or one line^

[smoky quest]

not sure to follow

[summer roost]

your goal at this point is to trim. Anything that you can fit on fewer lines, you should.

[smoky quest]

also fyi, your margins are huge

[low scaffold]

it should be 12 font size?

[smoky quest]

It's fine to play with the fonts and space

[low scaffold]

ik im trying

[summer roost]

I'd say 12 or 11 is pretty normal for font size.

10 would start looking a bit tight, but you could probably get away with it if you were judicious with whitespace around headings and the like

[smoky quest]

yeah, by margins, I was referring to the space between the text and the borders of the page

[low scaffold]

also do i mention why company should pick me? or they will ask me in interview that type of question

[smoky quest]

Let's hold on to that for now. We need to clean up the current version first. We can go fancy afterwards

[low scaffold]

lol ok working on it rn

[smoky quest]

also feel free to leverage formatting appropriately. It helps direct the attention and provide clear separations. So different sizes, italic, underline, bold, etc. Just don't abuse it

[low scaffold]

ok so now i have 1 and 1/4 of a page, i think that can be a acception possibly?

[smoky quest]

once you have a few years of xp, then you can go beyond one page

[low scaffold]

i dont think everything will fit in one page regardless making one sentence for the work exp

[smoky quest]

all the new grads can get it to one page. No reason you can't

[low scaffold]

grads?

[smoky quest]

graduates

[low scaffold]

yeah but they prolly dont put as much as detail as me

[summer roost]

... exactly

[smoky quest]

that's your problem

and remember that the new grads will have had multiple internships under their belts. So even more things to add on their resumes

[summer roost]

standing out by sharing cool stuff about yourself is good. Standing out by using too much space to describe too little experience is bad.

[low scaffold]

can u guys help me make it short?

[smoky quest]

I could but you would not like it

[low scaffold]

try it tho i might at this poitn cuz i can use this detailed in my linked in rather than in my resume so both are unique yk

Work Experience
Crew Member Dunkin Donuts July 2018 - Present
Performed restaurant duties including food prep, cleaning, helping customers, and managing the register
Counted cash and performed occasional cash drops and bank runs for thousands of dollars
Cooperated with a team to manage wait times at the restaurant during peak hours

Teacher’s Assistant Kumon November 2018 - June 2019
Tutored students from preschool to 12th grade with math and English
Provided individualized help based on students' specific needs
Assisted with grading and evaluating students' progress and communicating with parents about it
Kept students involved and motivated in learning

Driver Doordash June 2021 - Present
Delivered food from restaurants to local customers on time consistently
communicated with customers and worked collaboratively while multitasking

[smoky quest]

Work Experience
Crew Member Dunkin Donuts July 2018 - Present

Teacher’s Assistant Kumon November 2018 - June 2019
Individually tutored students from preschool to 12th grade with math and English

Driver Doordash June 2021 - Present

[low scaffold]

no wayyyyyy

[smoky quest]

I told you. But that will make it fit and give more space for your projects

[low scaffold]

i can def add one line for each job tho and say multiple things in one sentence

[smoky quest]

Just to explain where I come from: during the interview, 85-95% of the questions will be about your technical skills and your projects. 5-15% about behavioral and maybe 2% may be about side jobs/volunteer

[summer roost]

I like including the cash handling for the Dunkin job. Counting cash and taking it to the bank shows a lot of trust, I think that's valuable. I don't see anything useful to say about Doordash at all, though. I probably just wouldn't list that job, since you've already got another "until present" job

[low scaffold]

yeah but wouldnt internship like it if u have experience like communication and those type of interpersonal skils bc when i was seeing some jobs in linked in, it included that type of similar objectives in what they from the person

[smoky quest]

that would come after the rest. And that will matter more when you get more responsibilities or directly interact with customers, which would be unlikely in a security related internship

[low scaffold]

ohhh

[summer roost]

and just seeing that you are holding down a fast food job shows that you can deal with people well enough

[smoky quest]

Why would I care about your communication when I am not even clear if you have the technical chops?

[low scaffold]

yeah but would the recuirter realize that

[summer roost]

yes, people hiring for internships know what sorts of high school jobs exist.

[smoky quest]

you can help the recruiter seeing you are a great communicator, but your should not spend 50% of your resume budget on that

[summer roost]

the only stuff that's really worth calling out about your high school jobs are things that show an abnormally high level of trust being placed in you, or things where you did a job that a high schooler normally wouldn't

[summer roost]

In fact, spending 50% of your resume budget on saying that you're a great communicator is contradictory - that's poor communication in and of itself. If you were a great communicator, you'd be able to communicate that more succinctly.

[smoky quest]

also reflect on our conversation so far. What you have talked the most is not your technical skills or projects but how much you care about communication.

[low scaffold]

ikkk smh haha cuz i thought it would be important bc u need to communicate during work w colleagues yk

[smoky quest]

lol

[summer roost]

you do, and that is important, but that's something that will be judged more in an in-person (or video) interview, not from reading your resume

[smoky quest]

it's important, but no more than the other skills required for an intern

[low scaffold]

welll its 2am here but if im not done by tmr i will pin u guys tmr in here again lol but thanks alot for feedback i will def try to make it shrot

[smoky quest]

good luck!
And remember to know your audience and to adapt to them

[low scaffold]

also what would be short for this
Volunteer Experience
Community Volunteer Voorhees Pediatric Facility 2017 - 2019
Achieved a certificate for working until certain time of the period
Worked in an office setting while organizing important files and discarding of the ones that were no longer needed
Entertained disabled kids and teens by reading books to them, playing games, light physical activity or any other activities that they wanted to do while making sure they were fed healthy and balanced meals.
Monitored children’s health and safety by ensuring each child took their required medications prior to resting hours and consistently observed their health monitors to certify the health and wellbeing while the kids were sleeping

[coral tulip]

that sounds pretty impressive ngl

and since you did it for 2 years, it shows how dedicated you were

idk, I joined server today

[vapid jay]

Hello guys

[coral tulip]

helloo

[summer roost]

I'm going to bed too, but I'm not sure what "Achieved a certificate for working until certain time of the period" even means
I'd leave off the office work entirely, and focus on dealing with the disabled kids' food and meds and entertainment

[low scaffold]

ight thanks

[summer roost]

The meds being the most impressive part of that, since being trusted with prescription drugs highlights trustworthiness

[low scaffold]

btw as u see my projects, is it relevant?

[opal fractal]

hello peopel

i am learning python in school, what do i do now?? and i dont like my teacher

[undone delta]

You eat your teacher

[opal fractal]

i dont like him and im vegan

[vapid jay]

learn it at home

[patent oak]

?

[opal fractal]

yeah i mean how i dont know any specific websites for this purpose, also i am interested in learning ruby on rails

and ruby obviously

[radiant echo]

Hello people

[quaint geode]

There's resources on this server web i think

[gritty rivet]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vapid jay]

can any help me?i wanna install psutil bug get this error

[harsh pendant]

So data engineer vs Software engineer

[dense mesa]

Wrong channel, please delete the messages and go to #❓｜how-to-get-help

[vapid jay]

ok dude

[opal fractal]

thank you guys

@harsh pendant i want to be an software engineer

[gritty rivet]

Data engineering is a specialized field of software engineering

[viscid prairie]

Sorry i cant speak english very well but i want to ask, can I be a VR / AR developer from computer science ?

[low scaffold]

is anyone here

Worked in an office setting while organizing important files and discarding of the ones that were no longer needed
Entertained disabled kids and teens by reading books to them, playing games, light physical activity or any other activities that they wanted to do while making sure they were fed healthy and balanced meals.
Monitored children’s health and safety by ensuring each child took their required medications prior to resting hours and consistently observed their health monitors to certify the health and wellbeing while the kids were sleeping

how do i make this shorter @dense plinth

[plucky pine]

How to do well in an ml course in graduation

Like, how to master ml?

[gritty rivet]

Same as anything else: practice

[vapid jay]

Hey there

where can i get assistance dont want to ask in the wrong chanell im trying to figure out Syntax error i recieved

[analog sun]

Probably one of the help channels, check out #❓｜how-to-get-help for the short guide

[vapid jay]

thank you

this server is awesome ill be here daily i have aproject im working on and this server is a big help

[knotty sierra]

Couple questions, currently work in IT using platform based tools for data ect. I’ve always felt off using those tool idk why. Been through a couple books, John Zelle’s Python Programming and Python Crash Course. Getting pretty good. Have a few things to strengthen yet. Anything I can do to help find work With python programming? Any other books you would suggest? Was also looking to try and do open source work. Any suggestions on how to start with that?

[smoky quest]

in terms of data, there are a lot of needs around ETL and cleaning the data.
There is also a lot of backends. See https://www.cosmicpython.com/ for instance

[inner wren]

Hey @thick juniper!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.docx). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[thick juniper]

woops -- sorry!

[true harness]

I would remove all those "ratings" in parentheses "Advanced Beginner" (what does that even mean)

there's also some grammar problems, you should run it though something like grammarly

wait, what kind of job are you applying for?

[near ocean]

I would move projects to the bottom/above publications and awards or just take it off

[true harness]

if it's for software, the relevant experience doesn't look very relevant. unless it's a law software thing

[thick juniper]

The relevant experience is only the most relevant. I have no directly relevant experience. I think I should change that to "selected" experience.

[thick juniper]

I appreciate that those ratings mean little, but I don't want to give the impression I have expertise in any of these skills.

Thank you!

[true harness]

the general rule is if you put it on your resume, you might get asked questions about it in an interview

[thick juniper]

Which is why I want to set expectations. I can talk about setting up my Debian Linux system and how I learnt to use the terminal, getting various apps to work, etc. as well as some difficulties I've overcome to get there. But I have nothing like an expertise. Same with python, although there I can at least talk a bit about OOP and mistakes I've made and am making (yesterday I screwed up a simple command on the turtle module because when listening for a keypress, I added the function which would execute on the keypress with like this: "screen.onkeypress(key="Up", fun=paddle.move_up()) and having that open parentheses there made the function execute immediately but never execute again; and I can talk about how I solved that...

Sorry that was just a flood of information. My point is that I have various levels of experience (none very high) and that I want to make that clear so as to manage expectations and I'm not sure how to do that.

[low scaffold]

can i put next semester courses in my relevant courses in my resume? @summer roost

[dense mesa]

Ik you didn't ping me but I wouldn't recommend doing that

[low scaffold]

ok thanks now can u help me with cuple more questions

[dense mesa]

Sure

[low scaffold]

for skills, do i put every single thing, or only ones related to the major or internship im applying to

[dense mesa]

Put technical skills that are relevant to the general industry you're applying for. This may be a UK thing but it's pretty pointless here to put soft skills on a CV

[low scaffold]

ok last question

so when there are technical difficulties, certain people come to me, what is that called?

IT technician or somethin? or IT help desk?

[dense mesa]

You're the first point of contact for people needing to resolve technical issues

[low scaffold]

well notalways tho just sometimes

[dense mesa]

Maybe like a level 1 helpdesk support but idk if that's your official role

[low scaffold]

that would fall in skills tho right

cuz that is one type of skill ig

[dense mesa]

I get the skill you're talking about, which is being able to understand someone's technical problem and know what to Google, but it's hard to put into words unless the person reading it is also technical

It's a brilliant skill to have and if you can think of a good way to word it, definitely have it down

[low scaffold]

maybe i might just go with IT help desk(beginner)

[dense mesa]

On my CV I have it down as:
Google Dorking/OSINT
If they know what Google Dorking is you're fine, it isn't strictly OSINT but I frequently use it for that

[low scaffold]

also there is a skill thats relevant to my job but its called troubleshooting, like ik how to troubleshoot wifi LOL unless do u have better way to explain it

i guess that wifi troubleshooting would fall under IT helpdesk

[dense mesa]

I know what you mean yeah, it could just be down as "Technical Troubleshooting"

[low scaffold]

i can remove customer service then right? since one of my job should show that skill already

whats difference between technical support and help desk support

[dense mesa]

Hmm maybe leave an explicit reference to customer service up, yes your job shows that skill but they may not read enough to definitely see it

This is a really broad and wishy washy comparison, but technical support is more "someone has a problem so I physically walk over to their desk and fix it" whereas helpdesk is "someone has a problem, they raise an IT ticket, I fix it from my desk, if I can't I raise it to the next level"

[low scaffold]

which should do i put then cuz its mix of both lmao

[low scaffold]

also its not my job but i have that type of skill ig u could say

i think it helpdesk describes me more

[dense mesa]

If you weren't directly employed on a helpdesk don't mention one, just say you were involved in technical support as an unofficial job responsibility due to your knowledge in it

Helpdesk implies you were hired as IT support and were paid to sit at a desk fixing/flagging tickets

[low scaffold]

how do i describe in one word cuz im putting under a skill

[dense mesa]

"Technical Troubleshooting and Support" is as concise as I can think of currently

[low scaffold]

or just technical support

[dense mesa]

Whichever you think is more applicable to your experiences/knowledge and can fit on the line

[low scaffold]

i took off customer service cuz this is more related to my work

i think im ready to apply

[forest nymph]

Person McPerson lol

also id remove the stuff about magic

unless u are a wizard

that is a solid meme resume

aaand now I feel like an ass. I thought u were trolling us... Sorry

[true harness]

that's just removing PII, nothing uncommon

[forest nymph]

I meant the magic/writing stuff on a resume meant to get a job in IT

[thick juniper]

This is totally fair. My friend thinks I know enough that I have a shot with his recommendation. I figured I should include some of what I have done, which includes recently published short stories. For the most part, I stay home caring for my daughter, a fact I plan to include in my cover letter and not the resume. I don't know if I'm right, though. That's why I'm here. For the last seven years, my job applications (freelancing, etc.) have been showing people what I can do -- no resumes required.

[forest nymph]

has nothing to do with an IT job though

[pulsar drum]

You should elaborate on your project instead of just dropping a name and a link

[forest nymph]

everyone has kids

dunno what that has to do with programming

[true harness]

yeah, the skills and projects look pretty anemic. you could probably just remove the publications part and expand the skills and projects

[brittle thorn]

I dont have kids but im not everyone

[forest nymph]

Ok ill rephrase

100101010001010101001011110101010101100101010010010101110100001010000010010101001001011100101001010110101000101001010001111111101000101001011

[thick juniper]

Could you give me an example of what you have in mind? The Snake Game is the most advanced thing I've created. I'm working on Pong now, but that's not much more advanced. And my skills in Python is my most advanced technical skill.

[true harness]

be more specific than just "python", put specific libraries. for projects, anything you can talk about

[pulsar drum]

You should ask your friend why they think you have a shot. What does "knowing enough" mean? Based on that, you can expand on your project to demonstrate that your experience with the project has taught you some of those things.

Or maybe not taught you, but more like show that you employed those skills in that project

[thick juniper]

Great. Thanks.

[low scaffold]

if there are option for resumes or cover letters
do i apply both or just one. if one, which one

[true harness]

both

[summer roost]

you would never send only a cover letter for a job. You can send both a resume and a cover letter, or you can send just a resume.

[low scaffold]

welp made cover letter

[tacit condor]

Hello Guys

[low scaffold]

now any format? cuz as im looking online, it shows like company name and address and stuff do i need to put that

[tacit condor]

I am looking for opportunities like jobs and internships I am 15 years ild

3+ years of coding experience in python ML and AI , Android development using Java and Kotlin

[low scaffold]

i dont think u can find job this early

[tacit condor]

But I have experience in Python and Java and Android development

Or Internship

[smoky quest]

there is a standard 3 paragraph about why it's a great match between you and the company

[smoky quest]

internships below university are pretty rare and usually limited to see what work is about. There wouldn't be much work to do.

It will be more efficient for you to have fun learning about different topics and exploring things to better your chances to a degree and understanding what career you want to get into

[brittle thorn]

I had an experience in an internship in my uni that changed my career. I was a Chem major and was even a Deans Lister.. The uni offered OJT as part of the curriculum ..work as intern and get credit.. It made me realize I prefer making stuff and coding more than potential possoble entry level chem work in a wet lab. The pre bubble hype plus the fact i was absorbed into the University IT dept sealed the deal

So use internships to explore what you like and what you dont like and dont be afraid to pivot away and turn into new directions

Try different things if possible.. as young people you have usually a vague idea of what a partivilar field of study will mean after you graduate. Take advantage of internship or part time gigs to get an idea even before you graduate

Dont be afraid to deviate from your course

And listen to yourself ...dont let others decide the course of your career..

Esp parents

Be responsible for your early career choices so thst you dont end up unhappy and blaming others

And if you fail its not a loss if you learned something

[fringe heart]

- Beginner
  - Variables
  - Conditions
  - Chained conditions
  - Operators
  - Control flow (if/else)
  - Loops and iterables
  - Basic data structure
  - Functions
  - Mutable vs Immutable
  - Common methods
  - File IO
- Intermediate
  - Comprehensions
  - Lambda
  - Collections module
  - map and filter
  - args and kwargs
  - Inheritance
  - Behavior
  - PIP
  - Environments
  - Module creation
  - Async IO
- Advanced
  - Decorators
  - Generators
  - Context managers
  - Metaclasses
  - Concurrency
  - Parallelism
  - Testing
  - Packages
  - Cython

According to this list of Python skills, what is the "entry" level for Junior Python Dev?

[buoyant seal]

Everything and half of advanced at least IMO

[fringe heart]

I know it's not a binary answer-like question, but is it more like "some companies will accept you with all the beginner skills" or "most companies will require you to master at least 100% of beginner and intermediate""

[near ocean]

Spend less time looking at lists of requirements and more time building real world stuff

[fringe heart]

I spent 5 years doing real world stuff with python like automatic boring Excel stuff and some business optimization (like k-means client portofolio repartition) and lot of other things

my question is also "am I ready for a tech career path change?"

but my python use was very casual. My boss was always telling me "go on the field selling instead of doing it from the desk" (he was horribly wrong and most of the tools developed are still in use today), so I didn't improved that much over those 5y

But this year I discovered AoC (best decision of 2021), I learned to use most of intermediate skills

I hate my job, I love python, is this the right time to jump the cliff?

or in AoC days, doing the 25 days (with some help from this server ❤️ ) is enough for Junior Python Dev?

[near ocean]

I dont think any company out there is going to ask you specifically about python features

Most interviews have you solve problems, not exhibit mastery of a language and its features

[fringe heart]

Seems logic. In terms of complexity of problems, is this comparable to AoC?

and with or without optimisation (like some part 2 of some AoC exercises)?

[brittle thorn]

Only you can answer that...have a safety net if possible then jump if you feel you are ready

[brittle thorn]

Dont fear failure better to try and learn than be stagnant

[fringe heart]

How hard are job interviews are compared to AoC exercises ?

[gritty rivet]

It entirely depends on the job. Look for jobs and start applying. Expect you may fail multiple technical interviews but you'll learn a lot from that. If you can't get interviews then you know you need to work on your portfolio/resume/etc.

[true harness]

look for templates you can just fill in. it'll be 3 paragraphs. something like "why I am good enough for the job", "why I want the job", and "why this job is a good fit for the company and me"

[ivory sluice]

@violet needle no and don't ask. see #rules and see the topic of this channel is careers as related to python the programming language

[violet needle]

what is a "@violet needle no and don't ask. see rules and see the topic of this channel is careers as related to python the programming language"

im so confused :(

@ivory sluice

[ivory sluice]

your question wasn't at all appropriate for this server. please DM @severe widget for more clarification if needed

[languid swallow]

What use for python programming is most in demand for jobs currently?

Looks like there's quite a variety of ways python is used, as far as machine learning/ai, web development, etc

I plan to learn this for a hobby over the next year and if I enjoy the language potential turn it into a career, not sure what direction to take it

[graceful mason]

I think the most in demand is data science/machine learning

At my work (software engineer writing firmware for bots) we mainly use it for scripts (setting up laptops, working with data, various deployment pipelines, controlling testing rigs etc)

[vapid jay]

Anyone here into ethical hacking im trying to get into it and dont know where to start

[rugged cipher]

look up kali linux and hackthebox

[fiery jetty]

Hi, i've got a question related to my career path (im in data analytics rn and i use python, sql (sql mostly)? (I know Python, SQL...uh... i dont wanna say decently, because honestly, you just gotta keep practicing and working out problems/projects. Anyway what route Should i go on....

1) Python (Django + AI libaries) + Java (web frameworks + Hibernate) + C++ (whatever i need in it like Unity/Unreal maybe) + SQL (OR should i do Rust as well, i hear that's fast/memory safe/and good concurrency i think?) ( I mean I could do Rust after the three languages, but I think it'd be better if I just practiced Python, Java, C++ more rather than learn more languages? idk, depends on the advice i get from discord ig (: )
OR
2) Python (AI libraries + Django) + Typescript (Front end stuff like HTML/CSS) + Java (maybe?) 

Please note: I think I want my career to go down the Software Development path or maybe Data Scientist, idk yet.
Please do tag me if you have any advice. I'm really stuck on what i should do right now.

[whole dove]

Hey everyone. I'm working on a real estate DAO called balconydao.com. So far the only public part built is the "deed" which is a token you burn to access presales (need to join server to access). I'll need more devs and also a CMO soon so just thought I'd share and hear what you guys think, and if you know any talented marketing, dev, and social ppl feel free to hmu.

[cosmic axle]

When you work with clients how do you decide maintenance/retainer contracts or costs?

For example, after project sign off a bug appears. Is this charged or covered for free for X amount of time?

I understand this can vary a lot and depends on the company/client relationship, but wanted to know if any freelancers in here who have similar experience.

[rugged ravine]

hi everyone , i'm very new to this community ,looking for python/django opportunity can anyone tell me how to find projects remotely !?

[smoky quest]

upwork is a popular website

[smoky quest]

https://roadmap.sh/ could help there.

Both of your options concern some form of software development. So hard to give an opinion

[gritty rivet]

Look at jobs you want, explore the skills you need for those jobs by doing projects. As long as you are doing stuff you find interesting and with relevance to the job market, you'll do well. I wouldn't overthink the rest

[dense mesa]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[whole dove]

@dense mesa apologies

[lavish wing]

Hello

[oak frost]

hello guys

[vapid jay]

I am a native student of India and I am building a student community in which students across the world connect each other, have regular discussions on projects and can guide each other in programming field or any other thing they have problem with for example like open-source and things like that and I want support from this community as well if they can because what I feel as student is that there is a lack of awareness about the latest technologies are developing day by day and that's why I am initiating a community in which every student take part in...so that's the whole idea ..
Can anyone help me with this.?

[fiery jetty]

Hi I'm curious which program should I consider: almabetter or acciojob?

[buoyant seal]

as my honest opinion, both kind of looking like scam (as well as any other online course, made not by world wide company of AWS/Oracle and e.t.c. level, or least being made by single person with love). If I you are that desperate for courses, how about to try checking Udemy? I know that it is possible to review the courses by looking at other people comments/homeworks and e.t.c. And since they are all made by single persons, they should be having some diamonds in the pile of everything.
With having ability to see real feedbacks from courses, you should have at least a chance to find some good course

[fiery jetty]

I mean it's free until I get a job because of it I believe? I'm more concerned about placement doing something I enjoy I guess?

Like I think they provide you a placement through the program right?

[buoyant seal]

In my country every course promises placement and no one does

[fiery jetty]

Where are you from?

[buoyant seal]

Russia, we are quite similar in everything. Highly likely u have same

[fiery jetty]

I mean acciojob has gotten some good reviews I believe. I think I'd prefer software development so acciojob would be optimal? And since I'm in data analytics right now, if I decide to go to data science, I could just learn ml/ai on my own I suppose

Experience being the anchor to even things out

[buoyant seal]

Take the one where u like to spend all your free time

[fiery jetty]

Right acciojob has classes from 9-11 at night I think. It would be really wonderful if they would let me use c++ but I'll learn Java happily too. I know python decently right now but software dev needs something else I believe or maybe even python works if i learn frontend from acciojob

It has a discord channel and some youtube videos and some people even say it was the best decision they made but I'll check it out before making a decision

[brittle thorn]

Of course that's course marketing ...nobody is going to say the full truth...that wont sell

Some in the industry is self taught or mostly self taught... if you can teach yourself something and learn how to learn self directed without expensive and questionable course content it maybe better..

Having somwbody pitch to you it the best decision they made simply sounds like marketing to me...

Try to look for hard numbers and stats for the graduates of the course.. how many are employed after graduation, after a year, etc and avoid marketing fluff... some reviews maybe paid or fake even...do a smell test if it stinks its a fish...probably...like too good to be true

[sinful girder]

Hi all! I'm currently a UK Sixth Form student and is planning to attend Uni next year.

I was wondering if Computer Science at Uni will be enough to prepare me for work in jobs related to programming and perhaps AI. Should I also learn other skills or programming languages alongside the stuff taught by Uni?

[dense mesa]

It will be 'enough' but won't make you stand out. Getting spring weeks/internships/placement years is the best way to get experience, otherwise join societies that actually do stuff or do side projects

[split helm]

Any business ideas?

[graceful mason]

Computer Science or Software Engineering (and ome universities offer Computer Science w/ AI) courses will help to prepare you for programming jobs, but you should definitely learn in your own time and start your own projects. The most important thing is to do a course which offers an optional placement year and secure a good internship

[knotty girder]

guys how can i learn python easy

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[glacial hedge]

Do you have any programming background before? If you don't have any, then there is no easy path to learn python.

[knotty girder]

gg

[sinful girder]

Thank you. I'm also thinking of joining the Computer Science society in the Uni and attend events.

[sinful girder]

I have applied to a year in industry which I am very excited about.

Any idea where I can find open-source project to join? I know GitHub but unsure what to join or how.

[gilded valley]

I graduated in September into a full time job after doing two internships. I wouldn't necessarily recommend a year in industry, an option that will help your career just as much would be to do two internships between years 1/2 and years 2/3 of university, then you have the advantage of entering the workforce one year earlier alongside having exposure to 2 different companies (both of which present the opportunity for a grad offer). There's also the chance of getting part time work during years 2/3 of university depending on where abouts you end up studying and whether local companies are interested in that sort of thing.

[sinful girder]

That sounds awesome! But not sure if there will be much internships available in my area of study though, especially during the Covid Pandemic. I'm going to have to do some extensive research, which I will.

[gilded valley]

many big companies run internships, and a lot of them won't care about what degree background you're from. During my first internship at <S&P 500 Company> which was 100% software development, there were people from Philosophy, Music, and Chemistry degrees on it.

[dense mesa]

There are always CS internships

[gilded valley]

if a degree includes a placement year, you can also find an internship for that same thing

If it comes to the point where you're applying for internships, you can just 100% ignore the "penultimate year students only" and "CS degree only" lines in any job ads

[sinful girder]

@dense mesa That's true, but I'm worried that the applications for them are too competitive and my CV is too crude; my friends has two jobs already and I still haven't even gotten any job experience. Missed out one when I was sick for a week and another due to covid lockdown.

[dense mesa]

If you're not in uni yet you are in no way too late. Too late is being like final year of a masters with no experience

[sinful girder]

@gilded valley That actually answered one of my main concern that I didn't ask; I was worried that my qualification were not enough for the job description.

[dense mesa]

And even then you have the time and opportunity to get something together.

[sinful girder]

True

I do plan on applying for part time jobs, preferrably related to CS during my Uni study.

[stuck oasis]

Hi

[gilded valley]

you will want to pad out your CV as much as possible - if you've had retail jobs in the past, that gets you quite far. You can do some events and join societies during the first few months of university as well, and possibly list something like Udemy courses if you're really struggling to find content for your CV

[stuck oasis]

Is watching youtube videos for learning python's basics good?

[sinful girder]

That remind me to also start creating my new CV as my old one is kind of out-of-date and was job-specific. I had practice applying to multiple jobs but none was successful. I will keep on trying though and will be on the look for events relating to CS.

I wouldn't mind using Udemy courses into my CV if I really had nothing to write down, though I normally write down my experiences in open evenings for CS throughout my study in Year 7-13.

[gilded valley]

yeah, that kind of stuff is what's expected when applying for your first serious job. When you start uni, it's a good idea to talk to your Uni's careers service for help with your CV, most seem to offer that

[sinful girder]

@stuck oasis I learn most of my python skills from School Coursework (Non-exam Projects). Youtube videos are also good.

[sinful girder]

True. I should use all the resources and department available in Uni to my advantage.

[stuck oasis]

I understand watching the indian guy on youtube can help but they teach it a bit too professionally

[sinful girder]

That's true. For the basics, I would recommend creating your own project, whilst gaining experience from reading codes from StackOverflow.

[ivory sluice]

we don't allow recruiting on the server, and what you're asking for would also violate ToS for those platforms. please see our #rules

[meager orbit]

hi there, does anyone know the use of python in cloud computing. in which area should be more focused on.?

[sage ermine]

@ocean ledgeHappy New Year bro

[ocean ledge]

danke schon

[pseudo plinth]

"Indian guys" on the internet produce some excellent teachers

[stuck oasis]

That's what im saying

They know what they are saying but the thing is they teach it way too professionally for the noobs sometimes

[pseudo plinth]

Have you seen abdul bari's videos?

[stuck oasis]

I only watch muta

[pseudo plinth]

He explains the basics (algorithms) really, really, beginner friendly.
Same for his C++ tutorial.
He explains it to you as if you are clueless

[stuck oasis]

i might check him out if its beginner friendly

[pseudo plinth]

You're right though, some people don't go right into the basics and start out with formal teaching of complex concepts. But I believe your brain also needs time to adjust to the "professional" teaching as you label it.

Students often encounter what you are describing when studying Mathematics at school. They are taught Mathematics, they understand it well, but they are not taught with the formality and rigour. Abstract concepts which they are unable to grasp because their mind hasn't adjusted.
Yes, a lot of teaching is over complicated and poorly explained, however, it may also be the case that you have not gained the academic maturity

[vapid jay]

is there anyone who lives in the uk who can help explain how i can get into game programming and build up experience for it, that will actually look good on my CV

[gritty rivet]

Python is Python basically. The cloud is just someone else's server

[timid oasis]

Hello

[maiden tapir]

Do you have any recommendations for what would be good for laying foundations/getting into the basics?

[fair flower]

Hello Guys I know python , Django , AWS so now can I start learning devops or something else

[ionic glen]

Is python good for future projects

Which language I have to learn to create web 3 application?

[true harness]

what is "web 3"

[rugged ravine]

https://web3py.readthedocs.io/

[lucid vapor]

https://web3.foundation/ It's some effort to build a "decentralized web" using blockchain.

[true harness]

huh

[ionic glen]

How I learn python

[hallow moth]

?whois

[vapid jay]

Hey guys, I'm not sure if we're allowed to ask this here but is it possible to get a mentor here

[smoky quest]

1-1 mentoring is very time consuming.
Unless they have a vested interest, it will be tough to find one. I would suggest instead to ask your questions on this type of discord/matrix/stackoverflow

[smoky quest]

I am still annoyed they stole it from the semantic web, which was supposed to be web 3.0

[lucid vapor]

I honestly don't get the whole concept, and I'm not really eager to.

[abstract flicker]

Is it bad to ghost recruiters if I don't have anything scheduled? I have an offer I am accepting, but some places I had initial chats or second round interviews with are still contacting me for scheduling. Is it a bad look to just ghost them or does it not matter?

[vapid jay]

I don't think you should do any action that will burn bridges unnecessarily.

[abstract flicker]

not really sure what to say

[smoky quest]

Something along the lines of:
"Thank you so much for the discussions/interviews/etc. on XX/XX

I have decided to take another offer.
Please thank the team for such great experience!"

[smoky quest]

be cool, be generous, be nice, be thankful, but don't expand on the reasons

It will leave them a good impression of you and you never know if it may become useful in the future or if your paths will cross

[abstract flicker]

okay that is probably a good idea then I will message them back. I wasn't sure because recruiters ghost a lot so I didn't think it would matter but I guess it can't hurt. TY

[smoky quest]

In any business relationship, always be gracious, especially if you are the one dumping the other

and others misbehaving is not an excuse for you to do the same. It's actually the opposite as it will garner more respect towards you

And from their perspective, you will go from "darn, that idiot ghosted us. So unprofessional" to "darn, looks like we missed on a great one"

[vapid jay]

Thanks

[brittle thorn]

Yes and it has to benefit both mentor and mentee...find somebody local if possible... remote mentoring has its challenges too

[brittle thorn]

I had a Chemistry Degree and got into IT

[brittle thorn]

I taught myself python... first project with it was a file parser for student evaluation for teachers from optical mark rec. forms .. a very long time ago.. i took the initiative to use python when nobody in the company used it

Then I took the initative to propose to the Uni to use Python to make visual teaching aids for vector operations in a physics classroom setting.. The paper got published I got paid extra for the project and got to travel to present the paper too

Life presents opportunities to apply yourself if you look for hidden opportunities ..ah i think apply yourself is a breaking bad quote but nonetheless it is about breaking good.. note im a Chem major too and taught high school for a tiny part of my career and had health issues lol

[dense mesa]

Could you DM the paper 👀 can redact any personal information

[brittle thorn]

Done lol

[woven zephyr]

Hi, everyone! I'm currently taking a 2-year Diploma in Computer Science course and will finish by next year. I'm a graduate of mechanical engineering (worked for 7 years) but I'm planning to change career to a software dev, hopefully. I have a good background in C and Python programming and I would like to pursue a career where I can utilize them. I'm just curious if where can I get some experience as a software dev intern or trainee? Better if it's paid. 🙂 I hope someone can give me their thoughts or tips also in changing careers. Thanks in advance to those who will respond!

[thick juniper]

My friend just referred me for an entry-level position at his company and suggested I bone up on the advantages and disadvantages of OOP and on web app development process. I'm wondering if anyone has some resources that might help me learn or think about these things. Thanks!

[vapid jay]

I can help, I don't have much to do nowadays

[opal fractal]

dude

[weary crag]

Hello, I am finishing high school in 1,5 year and I'd like to do an internship before I study. Most internships require that you r enrolled in a university course. Does anybody have experience with getting an internship without studying already and do you have some advice what qualifications may be needed? Do you think it's worth going for example CS50 AI with python or do you think it's better to have some good projects to showcase?

If anybody has experience with applying for an internship after high school I would highly appreciate some tips/advice :)

[near ocean]

You cant advertise your youtube channel here my guy

[ivory sluice]

@thick vale advertising & self-promotion is against the #rules

[vapid jay]

Bought a domain name for my personal website

[solar nymph]

Hey everybody. Does anybody know how the future of coding will look like? Which will be the most in demand conding language? Will AI totally shape the landscape into something unpredictable? If i would start to learn a coding language, which one would you reccomend me to learn? I want to get to a point where i could build my own games, apps or websites... I hope anybody here can help me. Love U ❤️

[buoyant seal]

Nobody knows the future
https://distractedblogger.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/who-knows.gif?w=640&h=359&resize=500%2C280

[buoyant seal]

Different languages suit better different development fields

And development of games/ mobile apps and web sites is quite different in needed to know tech stack
I would recommend to think and to choose one field for starting, the one which you wish the most (and having available job positions in your local market for that stack)

[safe loom]

Do we have a discord server with job offers in IT/CS? Something like with a company list that scraps job offers and publish them through a Discord bot

Asking because I'm sick of seeing "Senior Data Scientist" in French job offers

[gritty rivet]

Not sure how a discord server is likely to solve whatever problem you are hinting at. Most other coding-oriented servers do have job board channels but they're not super active. It sounds like you are looking for a job board with smart filtering but you're more likely to find that outside Discord

[safe loom]

Guess it's Indeed for me then

[smoky quest]

is it a bad thing?

[safe loom]

Yeah I don't have the experience to justify it on my resume. I could answer to tech questions but Idk what's happening on the HR side when they chekc your resume

[smoky quest]

how many years of xp do you have?

[safe loom]

Just 1 + some bootcamp projects. Idk if research master internships count because CS wasn't my 1st career path. I wanted to do a PhD in Earth sciences.

[sudden quartz]

Thats not even ideal, it really is best to just seek them out.

[lone knoll]

Is front-end or back-end web development generally more sought after or well paid?

[sudden quartz]

no. Python. AI is just handling big data, nothing will change. C#, Swift, Javascript.

[sudden quartz]

Whichever one youre specialized in.

[lone knoll]

??? one isnt more sought after because I am better at it, what?

[sudden quartz]

back-end

[lone knoll]

thanks'

[smoky quest]

yeah that's tough

[safe loom]

@sudden quartz do you think talking directly to linkedin managers might be a good idea?

[smoky quest]

backend is typically more complex and more rewarded

[smoky quest]

it depends. There is a fine line between being creating and stalking people. But networking and trying different approaches can't hurt

[safe loom]

Knowing myself I'll come across as desperate. I'm saying that bc I need to move away from my parents ASAP

[sudden quartz]

recruiters yes, not managers. And generally search the web for opportunities

[limpid sparrow]

@safe loom what do u mean by linkedin managers

[safe loom]

HR ones

[limpid sparrow]

I thought project managers

xD

[smoky quest]

don't sound desperate.
People want to hangout around the cool people. So fake it if needed but don't sound desperate

[safe loom]

Yeah I don't want to come off as "hiremepls" even though I desperately need an income.

[smoky quest]

also being around big cities help. So paris, aix-marseille or lyon

sophia antipolis has some tech too

[sudden quartz]

So what are your credentials? Nothing CS? If you have a degree just do some projects.

Do Technical Projects that line up in your field. Sounds like you could do some data anal or AI

[safe loom]

I'm aiming Paris because I've got family there, transportation helps and the weather isn't overdramatic unlike in Sophia-Antipolis here.

So what are your credentials? Nothing CS? If you have a degree just do some projects.
Credential-wise, it goes to using programming for scientific calculus to some bootcamp/7-month formation in data science + webdev, followed with 1 year as an apprentice in a startup.

@sudden quartz I have some github projects lined up too and I'm fond of datamining and webscraping

Another question. What should be the ratio spent on job applications and personal project coding?

[vapid jay]

Hey guys - Looking to pivot from finance to a data analyst role then long term looking to move into the ML space. Anyone have any tips? Plan currently is to complete the 100 day python course then complete a boot camp as a way of opening the door. ( Have 3 years undergrad in Java/C+) Any advise on which bootcamp to go through ($$ doesn't matter)?

[sudden quartz]

a week spent on job applications could be fruitless. Apply wisely
a week spend on experience is a 100% return rate on experience

[safe loom]

Yeah, I still wanna try the job app lottery from time to time. Too bad it can't go faster.

[gritty rivet]

There are a lot of more focused and specialized sites depending what you are looking for. Personally, I have no experience as a developer but have been interviewing with startups and have found sites like angel.co and otto.com really useful. Maybe the same jobs are also on Indeed but I don't find them as easily there

[forest nymph]

So, im encountering a weird problem

I have a good amount of experience. But I seem to be getting denied from lots of basic level software engineering jobs, even before a phone interview. Just straight up, "you do not have the quals". Which I definitely do

That brings me to my next question, I need some recommendations for resume review and building services. Because something isnt right

[serene kindle]

Your degree

[forest nymph]

I have a masters in CS and 10 years professional software dev

[shadow bay]

@smoky quest what are ur thoughts on this ? https://twitter.com/gergelyorosz/status/1476856174230315025

Gergely Orosz (@GergelyOrosz)

The tech job market has never been more polarized:

Demand for senior tech workers has never been higher, compensation is hitting all-time highs, globally.

New grad and junior folks have never had such a hard time getting that first job.

A thread on what's happening and why:

Retweets

130

Likes

572

Twitter · Dec 31, 2021, 10:02 AM

[serene kindle]

Just apply jobs and ignore the rejections

[serene kindle]

Maybe apply for higher level jobs. It seems like a thing that job that is too low level will reject high level etc

[forest nymph]

That is a really good point

[brittle thorn]

Could be overqualified and HR is afraid to take in Seniors for a Junior role

[serene kindle]

They're worried you would leave too quickly or something. I know it sounds weird but i talked to many recruiters and they cared a lot about the matching of the skill/salary/level.

[brittle thorn]

That is their job

[serene kindle]

Like they were genuinely worried of it not matching

They saw it as a significant problem

Though in my case they just adjusted the salary, but your case does seem very extreme since you seem extremely overqualified

[brittle thorn]

Can be replaced by AI if they are so mechanical and overlook other factors outside the obvious

[frozen gate]

Even for more business side tech roles like business analyst or QA?

[serene kindle]

Always seemed like this to me though

[forest nymph]

Sometimes I think the job market isnt at "hot" as the news makes it out to be

[brittle thorn]

Sometimes i miss the Human part or HR they seem focused on the Resources part

[shadow bay]

we had a discussion the other day about this , and that tweet thread was basically my take . others believe it’s rather easy to grab a 6 figure job as a fresh grad

[forest nymph]

depends on the grad :kekw:

[serene kindle]

Yeah like graduating from top college is different

[brittle thorn]

Some think older workers are inflexible and set in their ways so prefer the fresh grad

[serene kindle]

Top colleges means even a fresh grad basically will land the job

[brittle thorn]

Stereotyping bad

[frozen gate]

And entry level job hunting is just rough all around, even in fields like accounting, because of the jobs wanting experience but you can’t get experience without having a job

[forest nymph]

I agree neko. CS programs just do not produce the same level of talent in so many cases

[serene kindle]

Idk. Imo Usually people who do CS in top colleges have many years of prior programming experiences

[brittle thorn]

True

[forest nymph]

To me, the best candidates ive interviewed are kids who love CS from young age, and their hobby turned into a major, which turned into a career

[serene kindle]

Yeah that ends up being a sort of years of experience

[brittle thorn]

HR is just being efficient so they use college ranking as a filter

But not human

[serene kindle]

So what do big tech companies feel about side projects? Like is it much worse if the side project is for profit instead of zero revenue/profit project

[brittle thorn]

They fear it

[serene kindle]

I know big tech companies really hate tech side projects. Any advice here

[brittle thorn]

I had have side projects ...

[forest nymph]

^ I would ask in every interview, about side projects. Mostly because the candidate 1. would be way more comfortable and it would turn into an exciting convo and 2. showed what their depth and breadth of knowledge was

[gilded valley]

which companies fear it?

[serene kindle]

All the big tech

[brittle thorn]

Go to smalls

[brittle thorn]

Yeah

[serene kindle]

Any other tips

[gilded valley]

all the big tech? As in just FAANG, or all tech companies? If the latter, that's just not true.

[serene kindle]

The idea is that if the company works on something similar to the side project there's an issue

[forest nymph]

Dont go FAANG lol. IMO. Have you guys read the netflix culture deck? That place is awful

[serene kindle]

Yes i agree

[brittle thorn]

Try making your own.... I tried doing cofounding startups but rate of fail high and not too lucky there but i have no regrets

[gilded valley]

what do you mean "yes I agree" - I'm literally disagreeing with you on a fundamental point

[forest nymph]

NFLX is pure lol We focus on managers’ judgment through the “keeper test” for each of their people: if one of the members of the team was thinking of leaving for another firm, would the manager try hard to keep them from leaving? Those who do not pass the keeper test (i.e. their manager would not fight to keep them) are promptly and respectfully given a generous severance package so we can find someone for that position that makes us an even better dream team.

[frozen gate]

There’s a high school grad at Netflix making high six figs

[brittle thorn]

I have considered at one point taking a law degree to exit IT

[frozen gate]

FAANG (MANGA) still looks really good on the resume, if you stick it out a few years

[serene kindle]

I prefer MANGA to side projects.

[gilded valley]

I don't want to get involved in the wider discussion, but I have a question for you with 10y of experience. At that point in your career, isn't it expected that recruiters and recruitment agencies are the best source for finding new jobs rather than job ads on <job board>?

This is just me asking for your opinion and no one else's

[brittle thorn]

Moving to management is an option

[serene kindle]

I prefer to stick to MANGA for life if i could personally.

[brittle thorn]

But they want proven managers lol

[serene kindle]

I really like the idea of the monotonous lifestyle, doing nothing at MANGA forever

[brittle thorn]

Do want you want...Careers sometimes depersonalize us

[serene kindle]

I'm not an ambitious person at all i just want a happy stable life

[forest nymph]

Not sure whats normal, I am just switching from one corner of cs into another so my professional network is basically useless, and Ive never used a recruiting agency

[brittle thorn]

There is more to life than work

[gilded valley]

ah - I might have missed it if you already said, but what fields are you switching from and to?

[brittle thorn]

Good for you i wish you luck in life

[serene kindle]

I know all the high TC people say that but honestly i just want stable job so i can study in my free time

[forest nymph]

It is a big lesson to me actually, its very easy to get silo'd and realize you spent 5 years doing something very specific that locks you in

[forest nymph]

security -> data science/analytics

[brittle thorn]

Lol what is high TC and am I one

[gilded valley]

I've heard only good things about recruitment agencies for people job hunting. I'm still very junior, but 2nd/third hand advice is that recruitment agencies are the way to go - it's literally their job to make you seem appealing to employers, so they're naturally better at it than you

[serene kindle]

High total compensation (highly paid)

[serene kindle]

I assumed you are high TC

[frozen gate]

Like cybersecurity? Or the other non IT kind?

[gilded valley]

I work in a data science team with a few people who have hopped from other fields with similar amounts of experience. So it's definitely doable

[forest nymph]

of course cyber 😄

[brittle thorn]

When employed yes but it is covid time and being careful

[frozen gate]

I took two semester’s worth of Python classes and I’m an MIS major (wanted to do CS but couldn’t because of unfortunate stuff) and now I’m hoping I can land a job in QA or data analytics or something before software dev

[forest nymph]

^ imo a really great place to start a career is at a consulting company. Probably get a huge range of experience and it will help u realize what u are both good at, and want to do. Stuff that you probably didnt even know existed

the tradeoff, is stress. It was my path. Worth it

[grand pewter]

. I started to learn code a few months ago, but took it very slow. From this time I learned the basics of Python and I learned by experimenting and playing around with my code, but I recently I have been applying these basics to make some very basic discord bots. I feel very confident with these basics and I would like to move forward to machine learning and AI; however, I do not know where to look and weather or not if I should invest in a course or if I should stick to the YT videos. Sorry for the story.

[serene kindle]

Just do a free course then

[serene kindle]

If you don't know how to start the course would guide you

[grand pewter]

Thanks. Any specific websites that are good?

[serene kindle]

Depends what your goal in AI is

[grand pewter]

there are sub groups for a sub group?

[serene kindle]

There's lots of AI courses, pick whichever you like. Then you can change courses

[grand pewter]

Do you use a specific website or company to find these?

[serene kindle]

Personally i prefer YouTube tbh, but i have used Coursera and Udemy

[grand pewter]

Thankyou

[serene kindle]

Courses are great when you don't know what to learn

[static sleet]

I have learned everything by myself, searching and youtube...

[serene kindle]

Just skip the andrew ng course though i think it's too advanced

Nvm

[grand pewter]

As a beginner(ish) going to a specific catagory. What should be the pathing? For example when you first start you go from the print function to variables to math…

That’s not a good thing is it

[serene kindle]

The courses themselves have paths just do that

[static sleet]

have you ever use github?

[grand pewter]

A little

[serene kindle]

The courses are organized specifically to solve this issue

[static sleet]

go there and search... you will find hundreds of jupyter notebook tutorials.... free!

[grand pewter]

Thanks everyone!

[static sleet]

good luck

[frozen gate]

Yes, learn to use git/GitHub and the command line

[forest nymph]

Dont skip the andrew ng course that thing is gold

[brittle thorn]

Watched them yes

[brittle thorn]

Yeah being siloed is a pitfalll

[grand pewter]

what is the andrew ng course?

[brittle thorn]

I wish we met in an interview lol

[brittle thorn]

https://www.coursera.org/specializations/machine-learning-engineering-for-production-mlops?utm_source=gg&utm_medium=sem&utm_campaign=28-MLOps-DL.ai-APAC&utm_content=B2C&campaignid=15277156238&adgroupid=131088411058&device=m&keyword=andrew ng machine learning&matchtype=b&network=g&devicemodel=&adpostion=&creativeid=561886531168&hide_mobile_promo&gclid=CjwKCAiA8bqOBhANEiwA-sIlN66SSOIy0O16SD2TrEHS9UWKwaQR1Tw1l64oi4IAdbsjZTk360Wi1RoCgMoQAvD_BwE

And similar

Just google

[vapid jay]

Is having my own email domain thing too much? [e-mail]

I bought a domain for my personal website/portfolio and it gave me the option to have the email thing so I took it.

[e-mail], it just works greate for organizing stuff too, and it's free publicity to my portfolio

[forest nymph]

Actually this is the one I did: https://www.coursera.org/learn/machine-learning

[brittle thorn]

Yeah thats good

[gritty rivet]

Yeah, I do the same and I think it helps make sure that my portfolio page is noticed/remembered. Can't think of any reason not to do this

[vapid jay]

Just feels kinda weird to me, don't know why. What names do you use for the local part?

[gritty rivet]

I think I've settled on using my first name.

[vapid jay]

Oh, I have like [e-mail]

[gritty rivet]

Right, so I've recentlybeen using something like [e-mail]. I did have mail@ for a while but decided to ditch that

[vapid jay]

Ok, mail@ is pretty good imo

[lucid vapor]

@uncut mesa Hi, we don't allow recruitment in this server. See the channel description if you'd like some more appropriate places for that.

[uncut mesa]

Ok, I am so sorry for this inconvinience

[strange forum]

Imposter syndrome is 'not knowing what you are expected to know' and beginner syndrome is 'not knowing much & not expected to know much'. What's the difference?

You don't have Imposter Syndrome (as a beginner)

https://paulonteri.com/blog/beginners-syndrome

[thick juniper]

This seems like a super bad idea to me (law grad, desperately seeking something not... bleak and gloomy). I just told my wife that I was writing thus response and she said, "why would he want to ruin his life?"

If there's something you're passionate about that requires a law degree, then maybe. But... man, I can't tell you what a desert hellscape law school and the practice of law are.

[brittle thorn]

Note i didnt

But i once did consider seriously

Maybe in the intellectual property area of law

Thanks for the feedback

[frozen gate]

I heard you have to go to a top rated law school to make a lot of money from it

[brittle thorn]

My uncle went to one and is a partner

I had him review several documents when i tried my hand at cofounding startups

Yeah he is rich

[thick juniper]

Sorry. I thought it was still in consideration. I have quasi PTSD from it (almost not really joking) so I've made it my goal to warn people off.

It's still a good job for some, but you need to either really need the degree (feel called to help refugees or fight for constitutional rights, etc.) or be just that kind of guy, and those kinds of guys are usually (only usually) assholes.

I should say that this is USA based. I can't speak to other countries at all.

[brittle thorn]

No it was well meaning

[summer roost]

Imposter syndrome is a belief that you're less skilled than others think you are. If you're a beginner, you probably don't believe that others think you're very skilled.

[frozen gate]

I think med school has a higher return but then you run the risk of not matching for residency

[brittle thorn]

Dont apologize at least you informed this chat too about realities in the legal profession. It was my uncle's success that led me to consider a shift to law at a point in my career where I felt it has stalled. Everybody got a blind spot esp if a light cast a dark shadow behind ... poetically blinded by the light

[frozen gate]

I majored in accounting for a time, but switched out because I hated the subject so much and would really rather do anything with computers over that, even if they paid the same and had the same wlb

[brittle thorn]

Im a Chem major with master's units in IT

[frozen gate]

Yeah, I ended up using my business credits to switch into MIS instead, to graduate faster and it still involves computers

[brittle thorn]

Sometimes i think i have this

[vast shoal]

It's very common.

I experienced it at uni and when I was just starting out in my career.

I find that it goes away once you get sufficient experience under your belt and see enough evidence that your fears are unfounded.

[summer roost]

I still occasionally have that feeling when I'm assigned a project that I have no idea where to begin with, despite the fact that I got into the position of being handed those poorly defined, nebulous, proof of concept sorts of projects by being the guy who is good at them.

Despite knowing that I'm objectively the best choice a manager could make for who to assign that work to, I do occasionally think "why do they think I can do this".

Feelings ain't always rational

[vast shoal]

Yeah, I occasionally get flashes of "am I actually knowledgeable enough to be in the position and paygrade that I am in?"

But I always manage to complete tasks and projects and I get good feedback from both managers and co-workers, so it's hard to rationally argue that I am not.

[summer roost]

Yep, exactly that.

[vast shoal]

I think you get this more frequently when you're less experienced because it's expected that you'll have more trouble with things then, but you don't understand just how much trouble you'll have with things when you lack experience and you think it's because you're behind the curve rather than just having the normal everyday trouble that any junior has to deal with.

[night musk]

Thanks python I made self bot with this amazing code

[summer roost]

That's off topic for this channel regardless, but self bots violate Discord's terms of service. If we detect you using one on this server we'll ban you and report you to Discord, who will most likely terminate your account.

[night musk]

jk jk lol chill

[split helm]

Please give programming knowledge that hints that you can start working

[forest nymph]

define rich

[brittle thorn]

Econonically well off with several cars lliving in a gated community

The commonsense image of rich...annual vacations abroad ...etc

Lol I think this is off the topic of career so lets switch back to career

Do choose a career that makes you happy first and hopefully you become financially well off as a byproduct.

Career burnout is too common sadly

[valid falcon]

@tender frost

Here too lol

[hasty plover]

Hi fellas, I'm a SDE in a small org working as full stack, I'm trying to upskill myself and switch to a giant. Looking for buddies to learn together, do mock interviews, and compete, etc. Interested folks DM me

[thick juniper]

I'd also add figure out if you're a more paper-pusher guy or a builder-guy. I'm totally a builder, but I chose the most paper-pushing part of a paper-pushing profession. It was seriously dumb. I imagine in programming there are quite a few paper-pushing jobs, but it seems (to my naïve eyes) that even those are in the service of building stuff.

[thick juniper]

Here's one then: for an interview for job at my friend's company (it would be my first programming job), he suggests I be able to talk about the advantages and disadvantages of OOP and the lifecycle of a web app (i.e. how they're built from nothing to functioning). Do you (or does anyone else) have suggestions for resources I could go to learn more about either of those? I know OOP but I've never thought of its advantages and disadvantages, etc., and I know next to nothing about an app's lifecycle.

[brittle thorn]

Im a hybrid I enjoyed writing thesis, documentation, research proposals and building stuff...depending on my mood

[gritty rivet]

There are lots of lists of questions for interview prep out there. You obviously don't want to mindlessly memorize these answers but it's a helpful starting point for brushing up on things you may have forgotten or identifying gaps in your knowledge. See question #3 here regarding the advantages of OOP. Not sure it addresses disadvantages but my point is basically, Google it. https://www.edureka.co/blog/interview-questions/oops-interview-questions/

[brittle thorn]

It seems to me its a web development position

https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E17802_01/j2ee/j2ee/1.4/docs/tutorial-update2/doc/WebApp2.html

what web app framework are they using

If we know we can tailor the search

https://www.guru99.com/asp-net-intro-life-cycle-hello.html

There just two of myriads of web app life cycles.. it may vary a bit between frameworks but the idea is it traces the way an http or web app request is handled from the time it is recieved by the server creating a session up to the time a response is sent back to the client and the session terminates

In between those steps is the details that can possibly be dependent on platform

[thick juniper]

Me too. But what do I know?

From the opening:
"A Day in the Life:
The Java Developer will build scalable, predictable, high-quality and high-performing web applications.

Build new systems using Java and J2EE

Work with frameworks such as Spring, Struts, Hibernate, JSF, etc.

Develop new functionality on existing software products

Design, code, and test business systems to meet client requirements

Responsible for successful completion of code deliverables within projects

Involved in the various phases of the SDLC"

[brittle thorn]

Ok focus on java

https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/appmodel.html

https://www.w3schools.com/java/java_oop.asp

https://spring.io/serverless

https://www.javatpoint.com/hibernate-tutorial

https://struts.apache.org/

Ok they use struts learn MVC or Model View Controller

MVC (Model-View-Controller) is a pattern in software design commonly used to implement user interfaces, data, and controlling logic. It emphasizes a separation between the software's business logic and display. This "separation of concerns" provides for a better division of labor and improved maintenance.

It makes it easier to maintain and debug code

JSF is Java Servlet Frameworm

Hiberate is an ORM or an Object Relational Model so you can easily persist or save java objects into the database with matching relational database tables..

Think of it as a wrapper to make the database platable to those who hate raw SQL

There is perhaps too much in the requirements for a person without a java baclground to master quickly

They maybe desperate thou so I suggest taking your chances but dont be surprised if you dont make it... i suggest an internship with them

Or take on a tester role while building up your skills

[thick juniper]

All honesty? I have no Java experience. I was astonished when he said I should try. If I get it, I'll get it mostly through his recommendation, I think.

[thick juniper]

If I'm already in the running for a job, how would I suggest the internship?

[thick juniper]

What is a tester role? (You see my ignorance.)

[brittle thorn]

During the interview they will assess your fit to the role so if you dont make the cut suggest you are open to other roles in the company. Continue with your application you will learn in the process.

[thick juniper]

And thank you @brittle thorn, thank you @gritty rivet. This is all great information.

[brittle thorn]

A tester test software ...there are many types of testing white box , black box, test with automation, manual test

A junior tester probably could do manual testing as he or she learns to code to move up to making testing scripts. Some testers turn into devs

Essentially find and report bugs, check if bug is fixed and do test scripts among other tasks

[brittle thorn]

Maybe he sees something in you

Java development not for the weak. The fact you finished law says something

[thick juniper]

That's a very pleasant way to think about it. Thanks for that.

[plucky latch]

what's the most in demand frontend framework these days? guessing react? im not a FE guy (yet)

[thick juniper]

Well, I love bashing my head against the wall until the wall breaks with the Python I'm working on. I know this is a silly accomplishment to be happy with, especially on here, but I've been doing the 100-Days to Code on Udemy and the last project was the first one where thr instructor suggested we do the programming entirely on our own (Pong). I both took the suggestion and accomplished it. It was hard but fun. So much better than anything I did in law (Appellate Briefs, if you know what those are, were my favorite).

And thank you again for all those resources. I'm looking forward to breaking into them.

[slate oyster]

hi

[thick juniper]

I'm super worried about being called into an interview on the strength of his recommendation and being a complete fool. I have no pride in my coding prowess, so I can't really embarrass myself, but I worry about embarrassing him.

[gritty rivet]

You probably won't look like a fool if you're honest about where you are at, it seems like you don't have an illusions about that.

More importantly, there's nothing wrong with looking like a fool in a job interview if you can learn from it.

I recently had my first technical interview for any programming job. I completely blew the first question, and it definitely didn't feel good. To my amazement, I'm about to go on to a third round with them. But even if they rejected me after the first interview, it would have been well worth the momentary pain because I learned a lot about how to prepare for future interviews that I don't think I would have learned any other way

[solar nymph]

Hey, which coding language would make me the most amount of money in the least amount of time if i am starting as a complete beginner? Which would land me the best job in the least amount of time?

[ocean ledge]

haskell

[zinc bronze]

Learn english

[frozen gate]

They said coding

[smoky quest]

yep, I agree. Only thing missing to the cause of lack of opportunities for juniors is, I believe, related to that shuffling of seniors. You can't just throw in new juniors without guidance, but if the seniors keep leaving/joining, the teams don't have the bandwith to deal with them. When things cool down a bit, then I think we will start seeing an uptick to juniors.
But what they say about competition for juniors is true. Which is also why I keep hammering to kids here to fucking get a degree

[smoky quest]

That's the wrong question. You would bake in too many assumptions. but if you want an answer, I would say php/wordpress.

For the slightly longer answer, a swe is a lot more than a programming language. See https://roadmap.sh/

[smoky quest]

The book head first - design patterns, is pretty awesome in terms of introduction to OOP

[smoky quest]

We do a lot of scala, python and java at $JOB.
Yet, I rarely hire people who know all three. It's about the skills and not the language. Any competent engineer can pick up a new language.

As mentioned by technotanuki, your friend seems to see something in you. That's a pretty strong signal.
Note also that juniors aren't hired because they are experts, but because they are promising and worth the investment.

the job ad you posted looks like a standard backend java dev with a mix of newer and old-ish technologies.
I assume you don't have months to prepare, so I would suggest to focus on java/spring boot and write something like:

• basic spring boot - REST api. So just a simple controller
• The above + a simple database access like mysql. You can make an api to Create Read Update Delete records for some entities
• the above + add some unit tests.
• the above + https://flywaydb.org/ to manage your db schema

If you want some bonus:

• Add a message broker. rabbitmq or kafka or pulsar if you want to set them up yourself. If you want some cloud points, then use Google pubsub in google cloud OR aws SQS. They both have free tier
• Add a cache like redis

Note: The spring boot docs/templates will provide some guides that use either maven or gradle. Use that. Don't try to set projects in your IDE but leverage maven or gradle
Note: since it's backend, don't worry about any frontend

[brittle thorn]

I recommend this too... Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software... by the GOF or the so called gang of four

[smoky quest]

that one is a must have as well. but might be a bit scary if it's your first time

[brittle thorn]

Remote team interaction means people must also be more independent.. it is easier to monitor juniors on prem

[brittle thorn]

Most job requirements are indeed inflated and i wonder if it is deliberate on the part of HR to filter only those who are brave.. Not fair thou to those that read the job requirements literally and not even try

[brittle thorn]

Was the first Design Patterns Book I read but yes and I was already beyond a noob when i read it.

[brittle thorn]

I wonder thou if they are going into it for the money they should be aware of how markets work. Law of supply and demand ..eventually that niche might get enough people such that salaries go down. Go Into any field because you like doing it not just to make a quick buck

[brittle thorn]

Also perhaps to be patient and not lose hope...

[brittle thorn]

Any accomplishment you can feel good about even if trivial is worth keeping in your memory. When the hard times come, revist them. I had my own moment in college as a Chem Major when I realized programming was more fun but that was while working as an intern analyst in a chem lab. Yeah im familiar with briefs I used to watch LA law as a kid...my career path isnt linear and I just tend to stumble into what I like. As a High school student i won a interschool Chemistry Essay Writing contest and hence the chem major

[smoky quest]

If that's the case, they may also discourage pretty quickly when faced with more complex topics

[brittle thorn]

Yep

[smoky quest]

True.
But you can train juniors remotely. It does require a lot of time though and can't rely on chance overhearing/encounters/discussions

[frozen gate]

Companies still lose profits on juniors while they’re training them, which is why they’re reluctant to train juniors and want an expert that already knows everything

[frozen gate]

A problem with that approach is that you might end up hating what you love if you do it for a living or it has poor work conditions/salary—at the same time though, I did want to go into computers because I like programming and solving problems, not solely money concerns

Accounting doesn’t pay as well as people think but it pays well enough, but you have to go into management for the big bucks—I dreaded staring at excel and just doing basic arithmetic for my career

[thick juniper]

My head's swimming a bit, but I'll get ahold of it (later rather than sooner 😆 ). Thank you!

[smoky quest]

you do want a healthy mix in a team though. Having teams entirely made of seniors come with its own problems

[frozen gate]

I’ve heard that women tend to only apply for jobs in which they fit all the requirements, while men are more lax and apply for jobs in which they fit most of the requirements

[half flame]

I'm currently an IT Consultant / Network Engineer. I want to get into micro controller and hardware development, and eventually move on to desktop applications. Is Python a good start?

[smoky quest]

python is a great first programming language