career-advice

[still condor]

seems like it's resolved now

[lament cave]

Is there anyone who works as software engineer with electrical electronics engineering background? I’m a fresher and thinking if it’ll be a great career start. I’m still considering if it’s a good choice for me since I’ve been only self-learnt programming since the past years. I’m afraid my skillsets aren’t on par with the standards. What do I need to do/learn more if I by no choice become one?

[smoky quest]

can you expand a bit? Like you just graduated with an electrical electronic related degree or are you talking about switching degree or something else?
Also electrical/electronic is pretty broad, especially if you go in higher vs lower voltages.

[thick juniper]

Hey @smoky quest, might I get your thoughts on my questions? Thank you.

Absolutely. My question is more, since I'm learning one language at a time, how much of Python should I learn before I move to Javascript? To recap: short term I'd like a job within a year but I've been learning less than a month and long term I'd like (or I think I'd like) to work in game design. Thanks.

[lament cave]

I just graduated with EE engineering degree. During school, the only programming language that I learnt is C++, while I self-learn JavaScript, Python, HTML during/after my studies. So, I’m wondering if being software engineer is a good start for my career?

[smoky basalt]

Senior software engineer make mad money 😄

[flat whale]

I have a question, anyone here is in a boot camp?

[dull nexus]

is there any YouTube channel having implementation for learning data structures and algorithms in Python?

[graceful mason]

You can find software engineering jobs that are hardware heavy - I did my internship writing firmware for robots where having a good knowledge of electrical engineering is a good thing (some of my co-workers had similar degrees). Adjacent teams also worked in the opposite way though (mainly hardware, but writing software to help). For example designing test rigs for motors would have python for scripts/interfaces and C code to exercise the motors. Any hardware related work will always benefit from having software knowledge and vise versa

[lament cave]

Understood. Speaking about hardware heavy, I was called by a recruiter for a vision engineer position, which I think largely related to what I learnt (computer vision) but to this day, I haven’t gotten any respond from him, though I already followed up regarding that matter. It’s quite frustrating really. But for this software engineer job, I think it’s more software heavy (I don’t think they involve any hardware at all in most part) based on the job description and I got a little bit worried on that regards. I mean, it’s a bit of disadvantage since I’m not an CS graduate so my journey and their expectation would be entirely different.

Plus, I really want to let out my frustration with many recruiters I reached out to, they didn’t even reply to me after I sent all the documents needed. Even after that, I followed up in the case they didn’t reply me back. Disappointed. What should I do when this thing happens, really? Should I follow up again? The job descriptions fit what I’ve envisioned to kickstart my career.

[smoky quest]

It can be. It might be easier in some areas than others (ex: embedded), but you may still want to give it a shot

[graceful mason]

In my experience recruiters don't like giving a definitive no because in the event that the person they want to hire backs out they might fall back on an alternative person. The best you can do is keep applying to similar positions, and there isn't really any harm in following up with them (but don't sit there hoping they'll eventually respond). At the same time you can develop your software knowledge and portfolio (e.g. GitHub) to make yourself more attractive

[smoky quest]

After 1-2 follow up without response, you move on. It happens.

[smoky quest]

keep in mind there are weirdos on both sides. It's not worth the worries or the energy

[smoky quest]

oh and one last thing: companies/recruiters might be very sketchy about giving you feedback or reasons. Not because they have anything against you but to protect themselves and their companies against frivolous lawsuits

[stone valve]

heyyyy, i don't think i want to go to uni for CS. i just want to jump right into building. does anyone know what recruiters would be good to talk too? Or like company?

[smoky quest]

why not going to uni?
Without a degree, you are gonna have a hard time and low prospects for a successful career

[stone valve]

I can't afford it. Unfortunately and I neeed to work and bring money in until I can.

[smoky quest]

What about community colleges, grants, student loans and part time jobs?
How skilled are you already?

Not saying it will be impossible, but it will be like doing your career in extreme hardcore difficulty level

[stone valve]

I could take a loan but my sister did and she is in crazy debt plus I don't enjoy going to school. I like learning by doing not sitting in classrooms. I'm probably like a junior dev.

[smoky quest]

how can you be crazy in debt when you will make a 6 digit salary?

[stone valve]

Just curious does anyone else feel like that way about uni/school?

[smoky quest]

That depends a lot of your HS experience.
While HS is very much geared towards giving you a general education as a citizen, university is focused on giving you a deep understanding on a domain to make you an expert and make things out of it. The students in HS are immature teenagers while univerity is attended by young adults who are a lot more mature (for some definition 😉 ).
So a lot of people do enjoy more university than HS

From a career perspective, your teachers won't be some random HS teacher but some researchers, experts in their field. While the quality of their pedagogy may vary, they will remain experts in their fields. Add on top of that internship opportunities and classmates who are also interested in the field.
Not going to university means you would be on your own, to figure out what to learn (but how do you know what to learn?) and you would be compared to people who have spent 3-5 years full time in an environment dedicated to learning CS.

Right now, I can also tell you that even new grads out of school are having issues finding jobs due to competition and companies generally focusing on senior level right now.

[stone valve]

I've seen that too. I may join bloomtech. At least it's free education and guaranteed placement

[smoky quest]

That's entirely up to you.
I am just setting expectations with you that your career may suffer and will likely earn less. There are always exceptions but not everyone can be that exception. So make sure you don't optimize for the wrong thing (penny wise, pounds foolish)

[stone valve]

What university do you think people should go to?

[smoky quest]

literally any university. Which one doesn't matter as long as you get a bs/ms

[stone valve]

even though it doesn't guarantee work? like you said "even new grads out of school are having issues finding jobs due to competition". Revolut and Google University will be a thing now. You get your work experience learning 3-5 years, from experts like university, income and recognised brands on your CV. It's not about making lots of money, I enjoy learning in the real world. Not about maturity either.

[smoky quest]

Nothing is ever guaranteed. I could also die tomorrow crossing a street.
While it may be tough for new grads out of school, someone without a bs/ms would have it 20x harder.

All the universities you see online are just businesses. They will do a lot of promises.
For companies and interviewers, brands aren't a thing. And that's for the same reason people don't care about which university someone comes from. Because there are too many to track. I don't even know which ones are the best/worst in the US. And if you hire internationally, how would you even know which ones are the top 3 university from China or Brazil?
So why would I care about a specific company brand delivering a certificate that is not recognized as a standard diploma? That's great they are teaching people and helping them reconverting, but as an interviewer, I would have to dig into how they are different from a BS, and that's something people would rarely do.

[smoky quest]

I am also curious about what you mean by "learning in the real world"?
Companies won't have time to wait for you to learn everything. And university have plenty of opportunities for projects and internships.

[smoky quest]

also note that a career is also not just about money. There are also responsibilities and mastery to take into account

[stone valve]

Building projects that are used in real world scenarios and in practice and at scale.

[stone valve]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

[smoky quest]

Got it. Thanks!
Although note that would be unlikely until you have accumulated enough knowledge and experience. These things are difficult and take time.

[smoky quest]

Also fyi, I see on google university's website they say on average, their student earn 62k$/year on their first job. As a comparison, we do hire new grads at slightly under twice to completely twice that (depending on location and if just bs or ms)

And for each of my job reqs, I have had 100+ applicants in 2-3 months

[stone valve]

Are you located in the UK or Europe?

[smoky quest]

US but am familiar with EU

[stone valve]

Ahhh got it.

[smoky quest]

EU is actually worse than US in terms of importance of degrees

your pay could even change depending on which school you went at and some hard limits to your career and roles

[smoky quest]

Also consider the fact that it's not just how great you are but also how you compare to the other 100 applicants to the job, who for the majority, have degrees, great experience and internships. Which means you have to work even harder to stand out

[shy mason]

Is there anyone who works as software engineer with electrical electronics engineering background? I’m a fresher and thinking if it’ll be a great career start. I’m still considering if it’s a good choice for me since I’ve been only self-learnt programming since the past years. I’m afraid my skillsets aren’t on par with the standards. What do I need to do/learn more if I by no choice become one?

[marsh wind]

hi. ads are not allowed here

it's not proper, see the channel descitption please, no recruitement here

[foggy ice]

i just read this...

shouldn't there be a recruitment channel?

[quasi glacier]

Ya can't recruit here

[marsh wind]

No, it was a decision made by the staff a while ago. Basically it's hard to moderate job ads and to filter out scams

[foggy ice]

like my email inbox from Linked In, haahaha

yea... there are so many scams for IT now... i posted my experience on Reddit and found out how big it was

[vapid jay]

Hello everyone,
I a Civil Engineer and I need to change my career.
It's exhausting mentally and physically I didn't like it from the first day.
I want to study something else other than web development and hopefully change my career soon.
The number one thing I need is to be able to work remotely cause jobs in my country requires a degree so I want to be a freelancer .
Salary won't be a problem since $200 a month will be more than what I made working 12 hrs a day So If I get $300 a month I will quit my job in a beat.
Anyone have suggestions to what should I do -Other than web dev- and if anyone is studying ,planning to study or in the same situation as me please DM me and let's study together.

[dense mesa]

What

I'm in the UK, have never heard of this either here or across the EU

[onyx orchid]

hi

[near ocean]

You've never seen "red-brick" ads pay hundreds of thousands of pounds while other ads pay like half?

[ornate umbra]

can you live off of 300$/mo in your country?

sounds very low for someone who has finished their career

[vapid jay]

Right now my salary is $191 without any other benefits no insurance nothing not even an official contract.
After public transportation it's around $153 No one can start a family ,get a house or car with that ,but it is what it is 😅

[misty thistle]

That's bad

[knotty sonnet]

Hello guys , i wanted to inquire about the field of data science x medecine. Is it growing ? Are there opportunities out there ? And anyone has an idea about whether work opportunities are with labs or clinics etc

[gritty rivet]

Searching the job listings in your local area should give you a pretty good idea

[red verge]

How old are u and how long are u working in this field?

[hearty scroll]

can anyone tell me what career prospects python has apart from web dev / data science and ML?

[gritty rivet]

Python is just one tool. If you're asking for fields where you are likely to find a job spending the majority of your time only writing Python and nothing else, those are the main ones

[summer roost]

it's commonly used as a glue language on the backend, too, as well as for microservices.

[smoky quest]

yeah it can be crazy

[rigid heath]

would python be used for web development in jobs

[smoky quest]

As suggested above, you should flip the problem. Python being a tool, your question is no different from asking "can ayone tell me what career prospects screwdrivers have?"
Most jobs will require the ability to use multiple languages.

[smoky quest]

It can be, specifically backend

[dense mesa]

What

[dense mesa]

Can you link to any occurrences or evidence of this happening? It must be a more general EU thing as neither me nor my friends have ever seen it in the UK

[smoky quest]

the UK is not in the EU :p
But this is a well known thing in some of the countries in EU

(note I have mostly seen it at the ms level)

[dense mesa]

EU is commonly referred to as Europe as a region, not the European Union

Which countries then?

I'm asking because this is directly relevant to me: I attend a top 10 UK uni for regular engineering, we're a semi-target and haven't had to deal with different pay packages or 'hard limits'

[smoky quest]

I have zero experience with the UK, so can't speak for it.
I am specifically referring to France

the difference won't be in the thousands of euros, but it does add up

[dense mesa]

So you can reasonably extrapolate France for the entire European area?

[smoky quest]

Who says I am extrapolating?

Thinking in absolute will only lead to unproductive discussions.
You may also be surprised to learn that not all companies follow this practice and may even differ based on their sizes

You may also have missed it, but the original sentence you are reacting to specify could and not the more firm will.

[dense mesa]

You made a pretty sweeping generalisation across the EU specifically, you're aware of what your wording meant, please don't make it about semantics now someone has questioned you on it 🙂

[peak halo]

My paper about a data science x medicine project is about to be published, and I'm working on another data science x medicine project at my job, so yes. At least in the mid Atlantic US.

[smoky quest]

I do stand by my wording 🙂

You are also free to disagree

[vapid jay]

knowing how to move the mouse in minecraft with python 🤓

[swift veldt]

Recursive is right about it being a more general trend in Europe because of long standing school bodies and university-shopping by managers.
This is especially prevalent in some industries like Finance (I can cite examples from the UK, The Netherlands, France, Italy, etc.) where your school diploma will determine which glass ceiling you will face.

it can be overwhelmingly prevalent in France, though, compared to other countries.

[vapid jay]

is not too bad

what's the acceptable Senior engineer salary in Bay Arean?

[smoky quest]

https://www.levels.fyi/ has some good info

[vapid jay]

ths

[smoky quest]

forgot to mention, but it also depends the type of company. The compensation package would look very different between an early stage startup and an established company

[dense mesa]

Please cite some examples in that case

Literally any from the UK will do, it's hard to take anything here without a massive pinch of salt otherwise

[swift veldt]

Example for finance: Blackrock, JP Morgan, Goldman, SG, BNPP, Monte, etc. very often do some school-screening for some entry positions (like some graduate programs) because they are more candidates than places.
It is also self selecting in a way. A lot of those programs are often given to returning interns, who got either offcycles or summers via their school career forums and fairs, which usually only happen with those companies at usually considered to be premium schools. It does suck and it a self-fulfilling/reproducing process but it does happen.

[dense mesa]

That's not citing anything :/

[swift veldt]

source: worked in finance, has recruited people in finance, and has left finance.

[smoky quest]

That's not the sort of thing people want to advertise on...

[dense mesa]

If someone says they can cite something then it's kinda expected it will be cited

Ftr I have a friend who did tech spring at Goldman, then summer eng intern, now has an offer, this isn't information for her

[swift veldt]

A cursory look at a google search about "name mattering in career in recruitment" yields an adjacent phenomenon. There is a very real, racist, and classist fact that one's own name matters in a recruiting process. And this is made more prevalent in countries, like France, where putting your photo on your resume is sadly the norm.

[dense mesa]

Which is why I'm asking for credible evidence

[smoky quest]

companies won't make these grids public. Which means you will only hear about this through hearsay or leaks, which won't meet the criteria of a real source

[dense mesa]

Pretty convenient

[smoky quest]

that would be quite naive to expect the opposite

[swift veldt]

off the top of my head Amadeus SA, headquartered in Spain, has a grid system where your salary is bounded by your position, time at the company and department.

[smoky quest]

I have access to the salary grid of my company per location/level/etc but can't publicly divulge it for instance. Same at every company

[swift veldt]

For a French example, IIRC, Societe Generale has a A-to-G alphabetic grid with a variant dependent on your school, where special individuals like the CEO would be labeled "X".

[smoky quest]

EDF is also well known there for that

[dense mesa]

If it's gonna resort to this I'm no longer participating in this discussion

[smoky quest]

tbh, that was just you trying to argue for the sake of arguing. So I won't be missing much

[swift veldt]

Also, having interned in some big companies in France, my intern compensation was higher than my peers, think 50% higher, because I came from a big boi school.

[dense mesa]

No. it wasn't, this issue directly affects me and I've stated this before. Please stop being so condescending

[swift veldt]

It deadass sucks ass but it's a thing.

[smoky quest]

yeah, the US is a breather in that regards. Although it does have some niche with these type of problems, but overall, it's a lot more meritocratic

[dense mesa]

Also rule 1

[swift veldt]

It is. There still is a glass ceiling but because the country's s large, Ivy League schools do seem to command less. (answering to rec)

[smoky quest]

yeah. The candidates in interviews don't differ much based on the school and I have rejected many times stanford/berkley/georgia tech for no-name university. But what they bring is the network. The professional network isn't talked enough in EU, at least where I was.

[true harness]

that's consistent with what i was told by school counselors: between top 10 schools and top 100 schools the only difference is the networking, education is roughly the same

[swift veldt]

It really isn't. I have seen the difference between Grande École and public university (finishing my MSc at a French uni this academic year) and there is such a gap in career preparation and teaching students how to job hunt, etc. Being a so-called "mature" student, I got to mentor my classmates, but it really showcase how lacking the system can be in that regards.

[smoky quest]

definitely!
In the same area, I would recommend you to also look into financial literacy. It's a huge gap in France.

[swift veldt]

One glaring issue is that teachers come from the public sector/public labs like INRIA and CNRS and they have no incentive, and often knowledge, to teach how to broach the private sector.

[smoky quest]

(ex: rental properties, stock vs mutual funds, how to invest and manage your finances)

[swift veldt]

I majored in Finance and I hate dealing with it. lol

[smoky quest]

lol alright, you will probably be fine then

[dense mesa]

And in the UK, this is a topic I'm passionate about teaching to others

[smoky quest]

That's actually awesome!
Too many people lack skills about it or aren't even aware. And missing on 10 years because you didn't know can have a severe impact in your later life

I had so many things to catch up when moving from EU to US, where it's more common

[dense mesa]

Every wage that someone doesn't invest is another direct benefit for the huge institution investing on their behalf

It really angers me how much this information isn't being widely spread, especially to people who are in need of it the most

[smoky quest]

indeed! Especially when they even chalk it off to the evil finance or being too complicated or too far in the future

[hollow yacht]

So I have accepted my first job offer and provided I pass their drug screening and background check (which shouldn't be a problem for me) then I should be employed. They mentioned sending equipment out to me in an email and I emailed back asking specifically what they were planning on sending (because I honestly hadn't thought about that) but they haven't replied. For a work at home software development job what equipment might they send me? I imagine maybe a company laptop but I don't know what else? I don't know if there is some sort of industry standard

[smoky quest]

laptop, screen, mouse, cables and potentially keyboard

may also include some swag

[hollow yacht]

Hmm, good to hear. Hopefully they don't require me to have to use it for all my tasks because I really like my current set-up. But I also like to play with new toys

[smoky quest]

they may actually require to do so for security reasons

[ivory sluice]

if they're sending you a laptop you can basically expect not to be able to access any of your work environment outside of it

[vapid jay]

24 - less than a year, But It dosen't matter I know people who have 5 more years experience than me and get paid less

[vapid jay]

Can you help me with that? 😅

[rich lake]

if I get the "IT Automation with Python Certificate" will i get a job?

[summer roost]

maybe also a yubikey or something like that. hardware 2FA.

or an RSA dongle, or the equivalent.

[true harness]

stickers? 👀

[broken parcel]

hello, i am currently working as an qa analyst i wanted to start to learn automation. does anyone have experiences on this and possibly have a good resource?

my project manager said he would let me know if an oppurtunity opened up on the automation team so i really just need to learn this asap

[vapid jay]

Can you explain to me how did you get that job?
What should I learn to be able to work remotely like that?

[ornate umbra]

start by finding something you just like doing

playing with web stuff, or data, maybe something more low-level, and work off of that. You can look on stackoverflow jobs to see what programming things are in demand (many of those are remote)

also learning good english is a real career-booster for a lot of people in low-wage countries, but you seem to be decent with that

i've met too many smart people that i could just barely work with because i couldnt communicate

[twilit forum]

I'd get fired in a heartbeat if I put company source code on my personal computer, but it greatly depends on what you do I guess.

[jade siren]

ok like i know i am not being specific but like how much do software developers starting out at FANG companies earn

[swift veldt]

It depends on the department, @jade siren. Rec posted a good link for some info on that yesterday (see link in replied to)

[jade siren]

Thx and i checked the website and sotware engineers which is what i want to be, earn ps (english slang for lots of money)

thx @swift veldt

[dense mesa]

Yubisneeze flashbacks to people posting their keys on chime lmao

[storm harness]

how do i learn python

[tiny thorn]

Hello everyone I need some advice from you guys
I am doing a python course (python basics) and about to complete in the coming week. I am a student (in school) so i just code an hour per day.
I wanted to know that after learning python basics what do I have to do next if I want to become a software and AI developer using python?
Pls someone provide me with a complete roadmap

[balmy mural]

I've seen this site regularly mentioned on here https://roadmap.sh/

[tame herald]

learn python then move towards learning Machine learning with Python. Do some projects

[tiny thorn]

like directly machine learning?

[storm harness]

you can do thses things

Machine Learning.
System Automation.
Web Processing.
Data Science.
Big Data.
Computer Graphics.
Cloud Computing.
Mathematical Computing.

[tame herald]

yes you can

[storm harness]

you can do thses things

Machine Learning.
System Automation.
Web Processing.
Data Science.
Big Data.
Computer Graphics.
Cloud Computing.
Mathematical Computing.

[tiny thorn]

i want to develop softwares

so do ineed to do this?

[storm harness]

you can some of them

[tiny thorn]

exactly do develop softwares using python what you needto know?

[tame herald]

Look you can build any software through this skill

[tiny thorn]

ok

[storm harness]

you need to know the lines of code and mostly the basics to develop software

[tame herald]

You need to know Python and must have an idea on which you want to work

[tiny thorn]

after completing python basics then advanced python then these right?

[storm harness]

yes

[tiny thorn]

kthanks

[storm harness]

start off by making some easier softwares and then progress on to making harder ones

what software are you trying building

[tiny thorn]

WHERE TO MAKE SOFTWARE

IN VISULA STUDIO CODE I CANT MAKE RIGHT?
I NEED TO LEARN LAYOUT TOO?

[dense mesa]

👍

[near ocean]

Bro calm down, this isnt a channel to ask about this sort of thing
I would also suggest you try and research this yourself

[opal mango]

what can I do with python

[quaint lily]

What kind of software dev jobs can you get with python?

[gritty rivet]

My guess is no, not if that's your only relevant certificate or experience. It's not something I ever see mentioned in job listings. I'm not saying not to do it, just don't expect it to be a golden ticket to a job

@opal mango @quaint lily There are very few jobs where Python is the only language or tech skill required, but there are many where it is useful to know.

Searching job listings is a good way to get a sense of what the demand for Python is.

For general fields where Python is used most heavily, the biggest fields are a) backend web development (see roadmap.sh/backend and roadmap.sh/python) and b) data science / data engineering

[quaint lily]

I see, thanks

[smoky quest]

It depends on the kind of automation you are referring to. Given that automation refers to the process to render automatic some manual tasks, it can take a very broad set of shapes and forms.
Since we are on a python server, I would assume something like https://automatetheboringstuff.com/ could get you started

[smoky quest]

fyi, if earning lots of money is your main motivation, I would recommend to change your way to see the world and your career.
People who are there just for the money would tend to not last very long

[jade siren]

nah but like i was just saying

[inner wren]

Hey @rough summit!

Uh-oh! It looks like your message got zapped by our spam filter. We currently don't allow .txt attachments, so here are some tips to help you travel safely:

• If you attempted to send a message longer than 2000 characters, try shortening your message to fit within the character limit or use a pasting service (see below)

• If you tried to show someone your code, you can use codeblocks
(run !code-blocks in #bot-commands for more information) or use a pasting service like:

https://paste.pythondiscord.com

[smoky quest]

You are asking in the wrong channel. This is #career-advice .
You should look at #? how to get help (no idea how to autocomplete that one)

sooo what's the expected outcome?

[ivory sluice]

btw just typing howto or gethelp after the # should work #❓｜how-to-get-help

[smoky quest]

ah, thanks a lot!
It does work. I was looknig at variations of the question mark

[rough summit]

being a software engineer for google is amazing

because you can work in any of there offices in the world, imagine 1 week working in america and then going over to europe the next week

[ivory sluice]

why would any company sponsor such international travel unless it was necessary?

[rough summit]

they dont sponsor it at all i dont think

[true harness]

why would working at google let you work in a different office every week then?

[rough summit]

you have access to any of the google offices

[true harness]

why would any company sponsor such international travel unless it was necessary?

[rough summit]

they dont sponsor it

[ivory sluice]

ok. maybe they allow employees to visit other offices on some occasions, but to pick up your bags and fly to another city on a whim and expect to be accommodated with a workspace and resources is very unlikely

[near ocean]

Tbh i would assume that any google staff card would be valid across multiple locations and that they have bullpen offices and are hotdesking so yea, could work at different offices i guess, the question is why

[smoky quest]

or any remote job 😉

[winter acorn]

I am trying to get into AI and I am wondering if there are any online resources to help me start coding AI programs such as neural networks or linear regression type stuff. like some sort of youtube video series or some course I can possibly pay for

[smoky quest]

That's a question more related to #data-science-and-ml .
But given the popularity of AI/ML, there are gazillions of online ressources on google

[winter acorn]

could you possibly find me one

[smoky quest]

are you seriously asking me to type your search on google for you?

[winter acorn]

ive looked for hours and i have found nothing that actually helps me code a neural network

[smoky quest]

https://www.deeplearningbook.org/

[winter acorn]

thank you sir

[winter acorn]

Im not seeing any instruction on how to actually code an AI function. Is there a website or some sort of resource that can actually help me do that?

[smoky quest]

you should ask in #data-science-and-ml

[hollow yacht]

Pick whatever technologies/languages/frameworks/etc that interest you and learn as much as you can about them. If you were like me and didn't have professional experience you definitely want some personal projects up on a GitHub page. This is extremely important too if you don't have some kind of related degree. From there also learn some basic algorithms/computer science concepts that will help you with problems found on Leetcode (this is mainly for the interview process if you have to do any tests/whiteboard interviews).
From there it's mainly about the number of applications you put in to different companies. I mainly stuck to Indeed and a little LinkedIn to find jobs. If this is your first job like me don't be discouraged if you have to put in hundreds of applications. Over my last 2.5 months of job searching (I've heard others talk about longer job searches!) I applied for ~500 jobs and received a total of 4 interviews (along with coding tests/assessments for many other jobs which didn't even pan out to anything even though I got really good scores...).
The main thing is to not stop putting in applications and don't get discouraged when you don't hear anything back for weeks from a 100+ jobs. You have to keep going no matter. It can get very discouraging when you put in a lot of time filling out applications and not get anything back but honestly with little experience it's a big numbers game to getting yourself noticed because there are 100's of people that apply for these remote positions. So a lot of the time your application is just lost in a mix of others. Just keep at it. And keep learning and making new things in the process too.

Just don't give up is honestly the big part of it.

[ivory sluice]

500 applications is a hecking lot of applications.

[twilit forum]

Yeah, well done man.

[thick juniper]

If you don't mind me asking, what's your education? I'm trying to transition in my 30s and have no formal education here and so if that's even remotely (pun intended) similar to your situation, that'd be a great encouragement. (Not that I'd give up if your situation was markedly different. )

[hollow yacht]

I have a Bachelors in Computer Science that I got a few years ago. I am 26 now, but took a break from computer stuff for awhile until recently. I do have friends in made it into the industry with no formal education, so just know you can get a good position without a degree, it just might take more work. It does take a lot of work because really the big thing is setting yourself apart from the other 100's of entry level candidates applying. But if you apply to enough and apply to at least 5+ a day you'll be able to get there. There is some luck involved with happening to be in the first ~100 to apply. But once you make it to the interview stage have a handy GitHub page with different personal projects you have worked on. Whether it be a simple terminal based number guessing game or a fully fledged application, you need to be able to show you know what you're doing

The hardest part from my understanding is getting your first position. After that (assuming you did well in that first position) it will be easier down the road when you try to move on

So just keep that in mind, because you do have a grind ahead of you. Once you get past this annoying phase and get your first position then in the future you won't have to work as hard for your next

After awhile of applying don't be afraid to learn new technologies. Like if you see there are a lot of jobs that require C# and you don't know C# take one of the free codecademy courses on C# to learn the basics. That's honestly what happened to me. My strongest language by far was Python, but I also knew C++, JavaScript/HTML/CSS, etc. After awhile I saw a lot of Java/C# positions so I learned C# and ended up getting a position using C#

Regardless just know that perseverance is the most important thing. Keep applying to as many positions as possible. There are some labeled entry level but also say they want 5 years of experience. Apply anyway and write an okay cover letter. A lot of these jobs will say they require xyz years of experience but they don't really require it.

I was actually in the process for a python position that required 10 years of experience and they still gave me 2 interviews and was close to giving me an offer before I accepted the one I did

[meager tree]

Can you be my mentor?

[snow lake]

I'm also looking for a mentor. I've been self studying and been in tutorial hell. And I just need to work with someone to really feel confident

I "know"

Python
SQL
R
JS
HTML
CSS3

And I've made basic projects like blackjack, a mobile first website, and just little calculators

also visualizations using data

[thick juniper]

All of this is great to know, and good encouragement. Thank you. Do you think I should dump a bunch of what I've made (nothing much more complicated than choose your own adventure games, blackjack, and Caesar ciphers) on github or should I wait for the big(er) stuff, like flashcard apps and Twitter bots?

[smoky quest]

fyi, it will be tough to find a mentor. Mentoring and 1-1s take time and energy and there is no incentive for people to do that with you, other than money.
So instead, I would recommend to post your questions on the appropriate channels and interact and form bonds with the community

[smoky quest]

Size does not matter.
It's all about what you can talk about during interviews to demonstrate your skills. If you have too many things on your resume, then trim the redundant parts

[snow lake]

What three projects would you put on a potfolio to make a manager go, "let's interview this person"

The most complex thing I have is BlackJack, and a covid/esrb rating analysis with Python.

I'm working on a reddit bot, and I don't know if that's impressive or just "cute"

[hollow yacht]

For a bunch of shorter, simple programs that are all one file each you could possibly put them all into 1 repository. But anything even slightly complicated/having more than 1 file I'd personally make it its own repository.

[smoky quest]

Put yourself in the shoes of such hiring manager. Are they gonna look at blackjack vs reddit bot? They won't give a crap.
They will be looking for a frontend/backend/ml engineer who can do X, Y and Z.

So which projects could demonstrate X, Y and Z?

[thick juniper]

Since I'm coming in from outside the field, how much of my "former life" should I have on my resume? I have several publications, in the legal field and short stories, worked for a Fortune 100 in law/accounting (a lifetime ago), did manual labor, teaching, etc.

[smoky quest]

if you want to know about how to devise X, Y and Z, then you can look at the skills of roles like on https://roadmap.sh/

[snow lake]

I don't know what kind of backend projects to do, I looked online and they said a reddit bot shows you can use apis, I'm just a self taught person so I feel very small. I'll look at the roadmap

[smoky quest]

I know it may sound like a cop out, but: put anything that is relevant or can help you get hired.
For instance, leading teams in other fields still demonstrate some leadership abilities.

[smoky quest]

look at the backend on the roadmap. That will include databases, message queues, caching, etc.
You don't need all of them, but these are the skills people will look for in backend engineers

[thick juniper]

Fair enough

[hollow yacht]

On my resume I had a teaching assistant position, with my current delivering position. With that I listed my education, projects I have done, and the languages and technologies I am familiar with in 3 separate lists. One being fluent in, one being moderately knowledgeable in, and one having touched a little bit

So at the very least I'd include your current position, even if it isn't related.

[smoky quest]

yeah, don't leave a black hole in your resume. That will look strange. Everyone has a story and that's fine

[thick juniper]

My current position is taking care of my children and writing short stories, so no... probably not related.😆

[snow lake]

Ok I'll do as you say, can we be friends? I'm really overwhelmed and the stress of job search and rejections has been affecting my mental health, so I'm just desperate. I'll be doing some reading now, and I might as well finish my reddit bot just to put it on my github since I never used an api.

[smoky quest]

I have seen people putting that on their resume. Stay at home and taking care of your family is a valid thing to do

it's like everything, if it's done with tact/class, there won't be a problem

especially with covid

[thick juniper]

Okay, here's the big question: what should I know before I start applying? I'm quite novice now. I know no more than blackjack. Or is that a thing to look at the roadmaps about? (Thank you for those, by the way. I have the site saved but have yet to take a gander)

[snow lake]

Sounds like we are in a similar situation J.Baroff

[smoky quest]

look at the roadmap.sh website I linked earlier.
Look also at job ads on linkedin/indeed and see what they require

[thick juniper]

Shall do, thank you.

And thank you @hollow yacht

[smoky quest]

Then do some leetcode so that you can do ~1-2 medium in 20-30min and go for it

Note that interviews are a numbers game.
And don't put your ego into it. Not being hired doesn't mean it's bad. It's like relationships, sometimes people are just not meant to be even if they are both great

[hollow yacht]

^ This a million and one percent

[smoky quest]

yeah and it's easier said than done. It will be tough regardless and can be quite emotional even if it should not be

and don't expect to be done in a month. Time to apply, time for them to see, time to schedule things... add a few companies... and you are already a few months in

[vapid jay]

If you want a suggestion, bot spam your cv everywhere, doing it manually it's a huge waste of time

[thick juniper]

I've spent the last couple of years sending hundreds of short stories out and been accepted only a couple of times, so at least I have practice.

[true harness]

a bot can't write cover letters for you

[vapid jay]

You might get calls from scammers, but they are easily recognizables, just block them

[smoky quest]

I also tend to recommend to tailor your resume to each application. Or at least have some form of special resume per type/role

[vapid jay]

im trying to get into machine learning but where should i start

[tiny thorn]

Guys if I want to make apps using python so where can I build like the layout and code for a software cant be done in visual studio code right? so where to write our code?

[signal hemlock]

One thing you should definitely know:
You will be rejected, a lot, sometimes with feedback but in 99% of the cases you won't know the reason, apply everywhere since you can reject the offer later if you really dislike the position/role

[smoky quest]

wrong channel to ask. This is #career-advice , which is focused on career discussions.
You should check out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[prime matrix]

should i pursue software development?

[prime matrix]

ask that in #software-architecture

[meager tree]

I'm similar (sorta, I know more than blackjack lmao), we should connect 🤔

[smoky quest]

And we are supposed to advise you based on?

[prime matrix]

yeah ig?

[smoky quest]

so maybe?

like why are you hesitating?

[ornate umbra]

if it's something you like/ are interested in

there absolutely are jobs available if that's what you want to know

I may be spoiled, but i always tell people to only take jobs that they actually (semi-)enjoy doing. Better a job that you enjoy than one that pays slightly better and is a pain in the ass

[uneven river]

I don't get it. Why can't I find jobs that pay $100k or so.

I am a senior developer with good skills. Every time i join a project everybody is impressed with my work. But all the remote jobs out there are offering $30-40k

The few that are offering more never even reply to me, even though I have a good resume with the required amount of experience they are asking for. I just don't get what to do. I want $$$ so I can afford a better life for my family but I feel stuck

And I can't leave my country (India) because I can't take my ageing parents with me who I care for.

[near ocean]

the issue is most likely that youre in india where living costs arent as high as other cities and youre being paid appropriately

how much do you pay for rent for example

[uneven river]

$200

But that doesn't mean everything is cheaper here. A phone or an xbox would cost the same or more than what it costs in other countries

Not to mention stuff like healthcare

Some things are cheap, sure. But not everything

*$400 not $200

[near ocean]

you dont buy phones and xboxes every month, do you? you pay $400 in rent, i pay £900 a month in London

in new york people pay more, in san fran rent is like 2-3k for a flat a month

salaries are adjusted to cost of living, a software dev for google in san fran bay might be getting 200k while a google dev in lets say montana might be getting 80-100k for the same role

[uneven river]

Yeah but in san francisco you also get paid $350k a year, so 2-3k is tolerable. I'm being paid less than a tenth of what other people get paid for the exact same work

[near ocean]

if you want 6 digits you need to move out of india is the answer basically

[uneven river]

Yeah and I can't do that 😦 I have to earn 6 digits while remaining in India. Which is the challenge.

I either get a remote job that pays 6 digits. Or I join Google/Amazon whatever and work my way up the ranks till I get to 6 digits

I mean I'm not starving. By all means I'm earning a very good amount of money.

It's just that my ambition wants more

[marsh wind]

for remote, thing can get tricky there.... how when you say senior,how much experience is that

[near ocean]

can you wipe identifying info from your cv and show us?

[uneven river]

I guess 4-5 years of solid experience. Though I've been coding for almost 15 years.

@near ocean Not right now, busy with other stuff, but I can later

[near ocean]

sure, yea, more specific information would help us give you more specific feedback, whenever you can

[marsh wind]

well, coding for 15 years is cool, but for seniority it's actual pro experience is what is usually taken into account

[uneven river]

I'm a very good dev. I don't want to brag but I always end up being a top performer in any team I join

[near ocean]

maybe the issue is how you market yourself then

[uneven river]

And I just feel like I deserve more you know.. I'm very ambitious

True, I got 0 clue how to market myself

Thing is I'm trapped in remote work. I get paid 3 million INR while Google India pays like 1.5 million INR for the same sole. So I can't switch to these big companies without taking a pay cut

[near ocean]

i dont mean to sound offensive or insensitive but i feel like the perception of devs in india is as a source of cheap and outsourced labour, that could be a reason youre not getting the compensation youre looking for

[uneven river]

That's true. And a hurdle I don't know how to overcome 😦

I know I'm repeating this but I'm very very good at my job. Like I can fix bugs much faster than anybody else I know. And I'm very good at developing systems and finding flaws early etc

But despite that I'm just not able to connect with the people who want that kind of talent and are willing to pay for it

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384> advert and suspicious link

[vast shoal]

Advertising must be cleared with staff before posting, please DM @severe widget for details.

[near ocean]

it is hard, especially so since you cant move
i think its best to post again here later with a sample of your cv without personal info so that more experienced members can help
to me it sounds like a self marketing and networking issue but i cant really help, only got a couple months prof experience

[uneven river]

@near ocean True, thank you for the insight.

I'll come back with my CV later. Definitely the issue is my inability to market myself/networking etc

[frosty edge]

@wraith rover what exactly could i do on this server

[valid yacht]

Hey there
I am a high schooler from Dubai (indian)
I aim for an ivy league University in AI or CS
Just wanted to know any good programs or internships I can join
Thnx:)

[uneven river]

@valid yacht Check out Google Summer of Code

They also have a high school program.. can't remember the name right now

[waxen edge]

does this server have a job posts page through which people can apply for jobs?

[dark arrow]

no we don't, but check the links in the channel description

[viral citrus]

Hey guys my background is in real estate finance. I have a masters degree and 5-6 years of experience. I'm now working for a company as an excel expert and use coding to make my own life easier. We have an SQL database so I'm picking up skills related to creating custom reporting and general queries. Using python with excel seems to be where I'm focusing my attention right now with automating the boring stuff. I'm wondering if there are any SME's in areas other than coding and python that have found a lot of success and are willing to share their stories on what they did, how they gained and applied their new coding skills while using their past experiences and getting compensated for it.

Bit of a general question, but specifically in the vein of my company wants to adopt technology and differentiate. I have the space to do it but I don't yet have peers to bounce ideas off of and develop a plan or worthy pursuits.

[swift veldt]

Drawing from my personal experience in finance, I started working with Python to perform consolidation work: we had a lot of data/referentials/documents separated into so-called 'silos' (which were tightly tied to team structures) that still needed to be reconciled on a quarterly or semi-annual basis (financial reporting goes brrr).
Given you have this handle on Python and the extend it can interface with Excel documents, I'm pretty sure you could easily identify where that type of consolidation work happens and use your Python know-how to create a kind of robust glue.

That type of duct taping via python scripting can really come handy in finance and can help free up your team's time to focus on more value-added tasks (or just alleviate their overworking when you have in-compressible regulatory duties to perform).

[true harness]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[swift veldt]

<@&831776746206265384> unapproved advertising.

[twin pendant]

I have a question about data science and mathematics

[true turtle]

Feel free to ask in #data-science-and-ml .

[midnight kite]

Does this channel have discussions on internships?

[swift veldt]

definitely.

internships are a very important step in starting a career, so it's very much topical.

[vapid jay]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[smoky quest]

Compensation is based on where you live, not on what other parts of the world pay higher.
You may be very talented but so are many other people. Supply and demand says that I won't need to pay a 6 digit salary to you when I can spend a lot less on someone as talented as you from your location

[wary wing]

can someone help me make a code?

[smoky quest]

I am sure someone can from #❓｜how-to-get-help .
This is #career-advice and not an appropriate channel for that

[wary wing]

A, ok

Thanks

[viral citrus]

Hmm. Definitely did not mean for that to be interpreted as advertising. I'm an employee of the company I work at and was asking a career question. @swift veldt thanks for the response. Tools to save time and man power is def the lowest hanging fruit.

[smoky quest]

there was probably an ad posted that has now been deleted. I don't think it was related to your messages

[swift veldt]

It's not really about saving man-power perse -- though automation does happen to trim some departments. At a team level, it's also about saving people from what can be called the debilitating tasks. Being forced to do grunt work because of poor tools and unoptimized processes is a fast track to burning out and people leaving a team.

[smoky quest]

you can also do more with the same team and thus generate more value

[viral citrus]

I relate to that greatly as I try hard not to be labeled as a go to person for excel for dealing with tedious tasks. Across multiple documents my choices have been deal with VBA or become familiar with openpyxl. I'm still relatively early on in my journey and while I definitely see the value and am pursuing it, I'm wondering if there are more fruitful career pursuits than simply eliminating grunt work.
Maybe I'm still underestimating the value of that and should come back to this idea in a few months.

[smoky quest]

it can get meta pretty quickly.
First you start automating a few things, and then you have to worry about when and how to run them, and soon enough, you end up with some sizeable work about how to manage, monitor and operate these automations as they have become important

[viral citrus]

Awesome. I'll circle back when I get there and am a bit more comfortable

[smoky quest]

definitely!

[rustic badge]

what do you guys think is the most pragmatic approach for self-taught developers looking to break into webdev? Like I get the whole do projects, grind leetcode etc path but assuming all that is done, what's the smartest, leanest approach? what exactly are employees seeking especially when considering self-taught devs?

[smoky quest]

"can they do their job and be a productive member of this team?"

[gritty rivet]

If you're looking for "one weird trick", there isn't one

[vague jolt]

what role do you usually apply for?

[uneven river]

Senior backend developer

[rustic badge]

fair enough

[quaint lily]

Whats a day in like in a python-heavy programming job?

[smoky quest]

could go either way. Depends a lot more on the job/company than python

[quaint lily]

I see

Does anybody here have a job like that? Im still in school btw and school has taught me what feels like nothing about the real world lmao, so im just curious

[near ocean]

It feels just like any single lang heavy job

[smoky quest]

like what? Not sure what question you are trying to answer

[vapid jay]

Im very bad when it comes to homework and school, im trying the best but i dont have any motivation since almost nothing is about my interests. I wanna take the CS degree, is it hard? Also, is it worth to continue in Master? How can I earn money meanwhile this? How can I afford to buy a home, a car etc..? What will I do?

[quaint lily]

Oh, ok

[waxen edge]

where?

[spare shell]

hi guys

[shadow moss]

If you are American, worst outcome is going to college , racking up debt and not graduating

[dusky canyon]

what kind of internships are related to programming? (Like internships that you have done and it really helped you)

[vapid jay]

im not american i live in sweden

[toxic venture]

If a job is offered at 75k base salary how much can I negotiate from there?

[wind folio]

+6% extra bc of inflation for sure

[toxic venture]

Tyty

[near ocean]

Inflation adjustments arent really part of negotiations, they're a given with any reasonable employer

[shadow moss]

Inflation adjustment come after first year

[summer roost]

that makes no sense. "6% extra bc of inflation" is referring to the fact that the purchasing power of money fell by about 6% over the last year. If you were willing to do a job for $X one year ago, you'd demand 1.06 * $X to do that same job this year to keep the same purchasing power. But if you're negotiating a salary for a job that you're accepting for the first time this year, the cost of goods a year ago is totally irrelevant.

[ivory sluice]

inflation is a non-factor when negotiating offers for a new job, see above ^

[summer roost]

what leverage do you have? What research have you done? What's the average salary in your metro area for the job you'd be hired to do? how do the benefits and amount of paid time off compare to what other companies are offering?

Also - do you have any other prospective offers? Are you far along in the interview process with any other company?

[toxic venture]

Hmm glassdoor says 83k but I do have some certifications that I believe give me more value

No other job offer though

[summer roost]

well, those are the facts to present to them when arguing for a better offer.

[toxic venture]

I want to ask for higher base but also afraid it'll end costing the job lol

Any advice of what number I not go over?

[summer roost]

It's unlikely to cost you the job as long as you're not rude or otherwise alienating. At worst, they'll just say that their offer is final, take it or leave it. I don't think there's any particular number that you can't say, but 82.5k is 10% over what they're offering you, and 90k is 20% more. I doubt they'd be willing to go 20% over their offer unless there's some very compelling argument you're able to make. 10% seems achievable. If they won't budge on base salary, often incentive/bonus comp is more negotiable. Number of paid time off days may be more negotiable as well.

[smoky quest]

if you can't justify it, then it's unlikely for them to accept it.
So unless you have a firm number in mind and are willing walk away, you don't really have any leverage

if anything, when people are like "I just want more" are a turn off

[summer roost]

so the $75k is base - I assume the rest is some sort of incentive/bonus comp. What did that number look like?

if the average for the job in your area is $83k and the incentive comp they're offering you has an expected value of $8k, then they're offering you exactly that average comp.

[summer roost]

I think that's true, but it's not unreasonable to say that, from your research, the job pays $X in your area, and that you're not willing to take an offer that pays you a below average rate. Though I do agree that you need to be willing to walk away at that point.

[smoky quest]

what you did is to justify it 🙂
However note, putting myself in the shoes of a company, it's not because the average rate is X that I have to pay X for you, if you are not average

[summer roost]

true enough, half of all developers have to be paid less than the median rate, after all.

[smoky quest]

and that's where the "you don't have a degree, so I won't pay you the average (since the average dev has a degree)" happens

[toxic venture]

Thank you so much guys. Gonna go with my gut and see what happens!

[feral pasture]

When you first start at an entry level positon, what would you say a company expects you to do. I'm currently going through some online python/front-end courses and it just seems impossible that I can do some of these courses and be a productive member of a team. Once I learn Python I then read I need to learn Django and all these other things. Seems a bit overwhelming.

[gritty rivet]

You need to consider many things like the company, title, geographic area, how bad you want them, how bad they want you. I've not tried most of the tools on this list but they may help. https://fairygodboss.com/articles/5-salary-calculators-that-can-help-you-negotiate-your-pay

[gritty rivet]

Every position is different to some degree. Getting good with Django would mean there are many jobs you can qualify for, but not knowing Django doesn't mean you can't get a job as a Python developer. In fact, I have a friend who works with Django heavily now, but barely knew it before this job and they hired him anyway because he could prove he knew other relevant things and was a fast learner.

It's easy to get overwhelmed by what you don't know, because it's always endless. Be patient with yourself. As long as you keep learning a bit at a time and do it persistently, it will add up over time

[dark arrow]

Discussion: Python and the world of work | NOT FOR RECRUITMENT | For recruitment and jobs, see https://www.python.org/jobs/ and https://www.pythonjobshq.com/

[smoky quest]

https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/ic1_software_engineer.html

[smoky quest]

Can you expand a bit on your situation and problem? Do you have a concrete example?

[feral pasture]

It's hard for me to look at how for loops use characters automatically or strings if in a list and see how that translates to real world application. I think it would be cool to make a website where you could put your Pokemon team & their sprites into a tournament style bracket with your friends to track how everyones doing, for example.

[smoky quest]

learning is always a blend of theory and practice. Make sure you do get both of them.
And in terms of projects, it's a great idea! But don't be too greedy if you are just starting

[feral pasture]

It's hard not to when you think of all the cool things you could make!

[smoky quest]

indeed. Lot's of exciting possibilities!

[vague jolt]

and what tools do you work with?

[full wharf]

does anyone have experience working with Bleak/BLE interfaces? I was promised a carreer if im able to figure this out before the end of this week haha

[lost token]

Hi guys I am Calvin Im in my uni first yr doin Actuarial Science. I did computer science in high school(o level) and haven't been coding for 2 yrs; now I hve started coding again and I realize its what I really love. So guys I am asking for ur advice, should I switch to a CS or software eng programme or I can just learn programming online. Can I get a job without a CS degree? Thank u

[smoky quest]

A degree is very much recommended.

[summer roost]

should I switch to a CS or software eng programme
Yes - this early in your uni career, switching should be quite easy, and having the degree is very helpful.

@lost token

[lost token]

Thanx

[coarse flare]

Degree ✅

[vapid jay]

Day 2 of asking

Im very bad when it comes to homework and school, im trying the best but i dont have any motivation since almost nothing is about my interests. I wanna take the CS degree, is it hard? Also, is it worth to continue in Master? How can I earn money meanwhile this? How can I afford to buy a home, a car etc..? What will I do?

[summer roost]

not my country, but IIRC staff members from Sweden have said that it's virtually impossible to get a software engineer job there without some sort of degree - so, yes, trying to get a CS degree sounds like the right path to take. There may also be Software Engineering degrees available to you, and if so they might be up your alley - less math than CS, more programming and design.

[vague jolt]

Can I send my resume here for a review?

[buoyant seal]

sure

[inner wren]

Hey @vague jolt!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[vague jolt]

@buoyant seal is it readable?

[buoyant seal]

yes, u already know k8s?

[vague jolt]

A bit from the Google cloud course, it required creating pods, duplicate pods and managing them and also adding health checks to them. I did it all on Qwiklabs since some things like load balancer would be hard to setup on my own laptop

[buoyant seal]

how did u apply Grafana?

[vague jolt]

I made a dashboard that used output data to monitor my computer usage

[buoyant seal]

was it using your custom endpoint as data source? or what was the data source?

[vague jolt]

I dont remeber, one second. It was using influxDB but I didn't document the exact steps.

[buoyant seal]

as another follow up question, why were u using Postman to test your Pizza Order Rest API application?

[vague jolt]

what else can I use?

[buoyant seal]

u mention usage of pytest in your resume, why did you not use this?

[vague jolt]

oh

I learnt about pytest after working on the Pizza Order API, I could add it though, anything else?

[buoyant seal]

are you familiar with any CI/CD tool?
how do you deploy your application?

[vague jolt]

yes, github CI/CD, I didn't deploy this one because I didn't know much about deployment back then but now I do

[buoyant seal]

which jobs/steps do you perform in your Github scenarios?

[vague jolt]

I had a C++ application, I would download the necessary deps for it on Linux and Windows, clang-format it and then compile code, run tests, and benchmarks before accepting a PR, link:https://github.com/ashok-arora/Matrix/blob/main/.github/workflows/linux-build.yml

[buoyant seal]

Can you tell from the top of the head, what acronym SOLID stands for?

[buoyant seal]

Do you know some design patterns, which ones if yes?

[vague jolt]

No

[vague jolt]

I am not really sure, is DRY and YAGNI one of them?

[buoyant seal]

nah, that's different thing. just best practices named in acronym ways

[vague jolt]

what are design patterns then?

[buoyant seal]

different ways to structure the code, to be not having a mess with the growth of code base.
to maintain Low Coupling, High Cohesion in the code
basically one of ways to keep the code a bit cleaner. Read this book for more explanations
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91quawUTiVL.jpg

[vague jolt]

oh okay, and what should I do to improve my resume?

[buoyant seal]

you are still a student? getting bachelor's degree?

[vague jolt]

yeah, pre-final year of bachelors

[buoyant seal]

well, I liked the best your projects section

achievements and certifications sections just shows your enthsusiasm, quite ok too

the funniest section in my opinion is Areas of Expertise and your job title

Most of your experience clearly lies in Backend, and looking to be something Intern - Juniorish to promise smth

DevOps in your resume is not really meaning smth in my opinion, well, except for having strong enough Linux skills I guess. Plus having
Did you setup Grafana and Elastic Search on your own?

[vague jolt]

I wish to get into DevOps roles but can't find any and I have been doing stuff in AI and ML so I dunno what to write

[vague jolt]

I used the Dockerfiles and modified them a bit for Elastic Search and Grafana

I could go for ML-Ops roles but I am not sure, I don't have the required experience I suppose

[buoyant seal]

u aren't having enough of hard skills to consider being DevOps even at starting positions yet tbh

that you aren't afraid of Linux and capable to use Docker, plus GCP and did smth in k8s is promissing though to grow there

but your Backend looks far more developed.

I had too brief encounter with ML in order to evaluate you in this field

I think u a getting close to Junior position in Backend, but some fields require more learning, like Design patterns, Clean code, Testing

[vague jolt]

what more should I learn to become better at backend and devops stuff?

[buoyant seal]

https://roadmap.sh/

[buoyant seal]

anyway, I would recommend the books
Unit Testing Principles, Practices, and Patterns by Vladimir Khorikob
Head First Design Patterns
and to try reading Clean Code from martin

probably Testing as first one to deepen knowledge. Testing makes a lot of stuff forgiving

[vapid jay]

Ah okay so SE (Software Engineering) is also a degree?

[summer roost]

It is in some places, though I can't speak to Sweden

[fiery jetty]

Hi so I don't have a master's in data science but I'm learning machine learning on my own. Would that get me a role of data scientist or would it be better for my if I decided to switch to software dev?

I'm 3 months into my career as of now

[keen sandal]

Chat

[safe loom]

What's with data jobs mostly taking data analysis for entry level while the rest requires seniors.

No, I don't want to do your Excel/Google Sheets job (legit description btw). Why are tech fields so demanding nowadays...

[safe loom]

Would doing a simple ElasticSearch application count as DevOps improving?

[buoyant seal]

Sure.
When you learn its configuration / maintenance / scaling, you increase your Infrstructure/DBA skills
When you learn its application by interacting it from backend applications, your increase your backend
Knowing Search Engine for DB is cool

[vivid scaffold]

Hi, can someone suggest a couple of resource for a coding challenge and software engineering interviews, I have one in a couple of days, and I need to prepare for it

[safe loom]

Before I knew Elasticsearch existed I tried to make my custom recommendation system with varying results.

So maybe I should try a use case with ES and add it to my portfolio of github projects to show that "hey I can do this!"

[near ocean]

Just ask your coworkers, youre not expected to know internal tools in the first couple of weeks or even months

[dry sapphire]

some things are practically impossible to find out by yourself

look at it this way

[near ocean]

Do they have documentation? if yes, then yea dont bother them until you reach a point in the documentation where youre having trouble understanding it or finding gaps
its quite literally part of their job to write maintainable and documented code

If they dont have docs or any literature on the product then its your job to hound them in order to learn

[dry sapphire]

yeah that ^

[near ocean]

also if theres no documentation, the best way to learn the product is to write the documentation yourself
thats what I did first couple of months at my current workplace

[proud karma]

I have a moderate quality game that I made in renpy, is there anyway I can advertise it, with permission? Simply curious

[vague jolt]

and how do I improve my resume? should I try new projects or improve existing ones?

[twilit forum]

Yeah, most people who are developers went to the program called "Datavetare" and a whole bunch of people who graduated from different engineering programs, "Civilingenjör" specifically, most prominently featured are IT engineers, but there's also a lot of people from the "Teknisk Fysik" program who do computational stuff and also embedded design.

When it comes to finances there's the study grant everyone gets + CSN loans that you can live just fine off of, they have extremely low interest.

What "being bad at homework and school" means is difficult to interpret. You will have lots of homework pretty much regardless of degree.

For reference, I studied the "Civilingenjörsprogram i Molekylär Bioteknik" at Uppsala University, I actually never graduated but completed 4.5 out of the 5 years and now I'm working as a software engineer.

[vapid jay]

Hey thank you for the reply. Idk what to do really, everything is confusing me. I wanna be a software engineer, working for a company back-end etc i know. In grundskola I asked my SYV what linje i should go to as a programmer, she doesnt know anything about tech&computers but she placed me in the El-Energi with dator-kommunikations inriktning. I hope this linje is well enough to be a software engineer, but because it is a yrkesprogram I told the rektor I wanna add högskoleförberedande ämnen in my schema too. Now I have no clue which högskola/uni i should ansöka and when i should do it? im in first year. Also, are there so called linjer in a högskola/uni too? If there is? Which one do I take?

[twilit forum]

There are loads of programs, if you want to get a degree and be a SWE the "Civilingenjörsprogram i Informationsteknik" is a solid choice, I would say do NOT do this if you're not in the headspace for schoolwork cause its 5 years and a fair bit of heavier math. Otherwise you can get a bachelors, Datavetarprogrammet is a good choice. 3 years, but not sure if it's the correct choice for someone who's feeling sick of school either.

If you want to get hands on quick and get a more pragmatic approach to learning programming I think one of the many Yrkeshögskolor is a good idea. They have 2 year programs, they're well integrated with the local businesses and quite often you'll intern during your studies and get hired at that very place after graduation, basically the company got free onboarding for you so usually they're happy.

By the sounds of your preferences I think YH is a good choice, less academic, more hands on.

[vapid jay]

Does it pay well? what degree do you get? i really need a good job otherwise its hard to live in sweden with all those expensiveness

[twilit forum]

It's called a "Yrkeshögskoleexamen", probably an entry salary of around 30k SEK per month.

[vapid jay]

Ah thats bad tho

[twilit forum]

No

[vapid jay]

Whats the difference in yrkeshögskola and a högskola

[twilit forum]

Entry level salary for a Civilingenjör, 5 years of university studies, is 33500 sek

no, my bad, that was when I started 😄

Apparently its 36k now.

[vapid jay]

What is a cilivingenjör?

[twilit forum]

Its the degree you get from some of the 5 year technical degrees.

[vapid jay]

Oh ok is it very very hard tho

[twilit forum]

It's fairly hard, sure. Not insurmountable, but some of the math and physics is difficult IMO.

[vapid jay]

Okay if you get F in one of those subject ur as well as dead right?

[twilit forum]

At Uni you just have to retake the test until you get a passing grade.

[vapid jay]

Ah okay, also can I get into uni with a bunch of E’s as my grades in gymnasie

[twilit forum]

You'll have less of a selection, but something should be possible. I would worry more about your preexisting knowledge.

[vapid jay]

Wdym?

[twilit forum]

If you have an E in math for instance you might not have a good enough grasp of the fundamentals when it's time for linear algebra and multivariate calculus

[vapid jay]

Oh my god im gonna fail so hard in life lol

[twilit forum]

You're still very young, don't sweat it. It's totally cool to chill for a while, work with some random crap for a few years and when you feel more comfortable and keen to study go for it.

After studying for one year at Uni I got super sick of it, dropped out, worked in a warehouse for 2 years and then I continued my studies when I was sick of warehouse work 🙂

[vapid jay]

I have a turkish dad, he will literally make me handikappad if i dont go to uni snd if i fail its even worse, so i have to plan stuff and get to know how i can live throughout my studies, not only that im very unsure if i can handle all the study I have ADHD

[muted spoke]

if u want to be a programmer , is math important to know ?

[serene sentinel]

Good question! I don't think so?

[twilit forum]

That does not sound like a nice situation at all, I would try to get a job after your current studies.

[near ocean]

Know enough math to get your through university, thats about it

[vapid jay]

its important on paper so that u can get a good job i think

[vapid jay]

I cant I have to go to högskola of some sort directly hafter gymnasium

[twilit forum]

Depends what you wanna do. Machine Learning research? Yes, very important.

To build a basic front-end? Not so much, maybe some linear algebra to handle coordinates.

[muted spoke]

i know math very well , what do you recommend me to go , i think what to choose Web development or Software Enginner or smth else

engineer?

in my unversity , we are learning java

rn

[oak forge]

i want to be a data scientist which language would be good to start with? thanks

[true harness]

python

[muted spoke]

can someone response to my question

[twilit forum]

There is no correct reply, whatever you're interested in you should pursuit.
Try some webdev, if you like it a lot, your have your answer, if not, try some data science, rinse and repeat with a different subfield.

[tired vale]

Hello hows it going? I'll try and keep it as short as possible. My name is Chris and I am from the era of Win95/Win98. I spent immense amounts of time and effort at the age of 14 trying to teach myself C+ and VB so that I could build hacks for the game I played from 1997-2010. What an amazing game that was though. The community was one of a kind and hard to mimic but can be done if built again. Anyways Ive always been the technical IT person that started breaking down and rebuilding computers at a young age but I was never as consistent nor do I have projects from the past available to show. There was also a long gap in between the age of 14 to now, 37. I wish I was not lazy as a kid and never stopped programming but I did not pick it back up until about a year ago and I am slaying. I spend a minimum of 8 hours every day consistently learning and I have done more in this year than I have my entire life of school K-12 combined. I feel like I am job ready but I just dont have the confidence in my resume and I am terrible at "gassing" myself up as a lot of people do. Does anyone who has solidified themselves in the programming world have any advice for resume/job knowledge articulation. Appreciate the help

[muted spoke]

thanks so much

[brave mesa]

hay, dudes. Can i asked you? What you taught after learn python basics?

[lucid totem]

You mean C++?

[tired vale]

what else would I mean? Its not like i misspelled Python like "Pyhton" like most do on FB groups

my bad. My index finger that has a bandaid on it forgot to type the second "+"

[lucid totem]

I would 100% work on projects

I think projects give a better scope on your ability

[tired vale]

gotcha. I just need to upload to github I guess. I have not really been doing that throughout all courses/videos

read that was important too

[lucid totem]

I think github is a good tool for building resume credit

[tired vale]

cool thanks

[proper musk]

@flint tangle how to get 17lpa

[vague jolt]

what would be a better job title?

[buoyant seal]

I think it would be better to have just Backend title.
can't evalute your ML part, if it is equally comparable enough to backend part in size, then adding it to title

[vague jolt]

I thought you were referring to this job title: Backend Developer and DevOps Engineer (Intern)

[buoyant seal]

yeah, Backend Developer (Intern / Junior whatever) then

[vague jolt]

oh, should I remove the Intern part too? I dont usually it in resumes

[buoyant seal]

nah, it is good one I think
until u finish university, u a basically intern anyway

[vague jolt]

ah right, and should I work on new projects or improve existing ones?

[buoyant seal]

both choices are fine
refactor the old or make new ones

[valid summit]

Anyone here have a computer science degree?

DM if so please

[vague jolt]

I am in a CS program, if that helps

[valid summit]

im thinking of changing my career path

[twilit forum]

Learning programming and applying it at your current job is probably the safer approach

[vague jolt]

oh, no experience there, someone else might be able to help

[valid summit]

im currently in grad school for pharmacy, im considering a career in programming

instead

[twilit forum]

Oh, then my advice was probably a bit poor 😄

[vague jolt]

@buoyant seal just one more thing, I am interested in the following areas: ML, data science, Dev, Ops and I have done projects in ML, data science and backend work, but how do I pick one out of them? My resume can be a maximum of 1 page so if someone asks for my resume, what should I give them and which projects should I include?

[valid summit]

i should also mention that im from toronto

[twilit forum]

You include your repo, so all of them IMO.

[vague jolt]

my resume has room for 3 projects at the moment

[buoyant seal]

I just sort my roles in relevance
which one is main
which one is secondary
and e.t.c.

usually people create several resumes and apply different ones to different positions

[vague jolt]

how do I pick my main role, I am confused

[buoyant seal]

during interviews u a usually finding out where u fit better
plus u know... just looking at job vacancies for different job titles, and comparing where you have bettter match in skills and in experience

[vague jolt]

what are the skills required for a backend dev? I am poor in leetcoding and hence hesitant to apply for backend roles since they usually involve algorithms

[buoyant seal]

search web site with jobs for your local job market

plus roadmap.sh is a help, but first method is more reliable for job precision, while second method is more generalizing

[buoyant seal]

find 10+ vanacancies for some position at your local market and just find the shared skills

the small trick though, that some skills aren't mentioned in job vacancies but they are assumed to be, roadmaps mention them better

[vague jolt]

and does leetcode-ing matter for backend jobs? aside from the skills from roadmap.sh

[buoyant seal]

for companies with FAANG like process of hiring, it is assumed to be important part of interview

for startups it is likely to be not important

[vague jolt]

should I have an area of expertise section or remove it?

[vapid jay]

Why it says wrong
import requests

SESO = requests.get("https://replit.com")

print(SESO.content)

[gritty rivet]

Wrong channel, maybe try #networks with an explanation of what's wrong

[whole vale]

please ask #python-discussion or #❓｜how-to-get-help for this

[vapid jay]

Now i fixed it

[normal imp]

Cadê os Br?

[smoky quest]

fyi, every startup I have interviewed at or was part of, did include leetcode type questions. So ymmv

[smoky quest]

Backend roles do require quite a bit of algorithms. Instead of avoiding it, I would recommend to read on that 🙂

[shadow moss]

What? No. Most backend is just tying stuff together. Like getting data from other API or database

[smoky quest]

lmao no. There is a lot more to it and I would feel very sad for the people for whom it has been just about that.

[shadow moss]

What algorithms do you think back end people are doing?

[smoky quest]

It's a bit more than what I think given I have been one for quite some time and hiring people to do such jobs 🙂

Some random items from the top of my head include, algorithms related to concurrency, distribution of load or data, handling grammars/lexers/parsers, various optimizations (ex: probabilistic data structures), domain expertise (which can require DP type of algorithms), and sometimes go into other paradigms (expert systems)

[smoky quest]

can you also expand on why you think it's just about simple APIs and db? That sounds incredibly simplistic

[summer roost]

A lot of backend devs are building services for CRUD apps, sure. But backend dev also includes creating operating systems and databases and HTTP servers and caching systems and message queues. Even for the backend devs who are just working on the backend of CRUD websites, they often need to apply interesting algorithms as part of scaling those services to support more users.

So, some backend devs might not need much algorithms knowledge, but the ones that don't are the ones who are doing the least interesting and challenging development

In my mind, there are very few interesting algorithms on the frontend side of the world. Most of the interesting stuff runs on remote servers, not directly on your device.

[shadow moss]

generally database/HTTP Servers/Caching systems and messaging queues are not "backend developers", those are system developers

[summer roost]

systems developers are a subset of backend developers. They write code that runs on the backend.

[shadow moss]

because backend developers are building web/CRUD backends, you generally don't need a ton of "algorithms" to do that. Sure, if you are working at Amazon/Google/Microsoft scale, it might be different but most of those issues are solved problems, you just pull out existing tooling and away you go

[digital fjord]

there are some pretty cool frontend algos tbh, especially with things like collaborative editing

[summer roost]

isn't collaborative editing coordinated by the backend? I thought all the clients sent timestamped edits to the backend, and the backend coordinated them and broadcast them out to other clients

[shadow moss]

generally

[digital fjord]

hmm, I think its sort of a combination of both, you can't just send the whole new state at once generally

[shadow moss]

I'm sure there is some P2P solution that could be developed but Firewalls would get in your way except in most controlled environment

[digital fjord]

from that one article I read on it, the backend just routes the events and the frontend updates it, with checksums every once in a while

[shadow moss]

I've never seen system developers classed as "backend developers", most of time they are systems developers and wouldn't say "Oh, I'm backend developer who works on Operating Systems"

[summer roost]

hm. Well, I'm a systems developer who describes my job as "backend developer". 🤷

[shadow moss]

What do you work on?

[summer roost]

These days, Python libraries that bind to C++ middleware frameworks that are used by Python backend developers at $big_corp

[shadow moss]

what is your transport communication method with C++ middleware?

[summer roost]

Cython bindings to C++ libraries, mostly, though some bespoke asyncio stuff that speaks some wire protocol directly

[shadow moss]

I'd say your more backend then systems just based off language choice but still, backend generally means CRUD applications, systems is writing OSes, Databases

[summer roost]

well, I disagree over both your definition of terms and your belief about what skills my job requires.

[smoky quest]

What I laid out are the expectations across the US west/east coast and tech hubs when hiring for backend engineers.
Depending on your location, maybe it's different

[shadow moss]

hiring, sure algos rules because "FAANG does it!"

[smoky quest]

I am not referring to faang specifically. I am referring to expectations in job ads in that location

Also note that the term of system developer doesn't really exist. As mentioned earlier by gobblegeek, they aren't distinguished

(in this location*)

[shadow moss]

no, because FAANG does Algo interviews, a bunch of companies follow them. As I've said before, tech would be alot better if FAANG shut the hell up because their problems and solutions are generally not the problems others have.

[smoky quest]

these types of questions existed well before faang existed

[summer roost]

I've had a job writing Linux kernel modules for communicating with embedded devices over bespoke wire protocols, and a job writing Python web services. I consider both of them backend dev, though only one was systems dev.

[shadow moss]

I've worked with OS/Database developers, never ever heard them refer to themselves as backend developers, almost always they called themselves system or OS developers but ok

[vapid jay]

hi all, i have my first questions coming up... thee first round is a online python test. can anyone please suggest a website where i can practice? Thank you

[shadow moss]

FAANG made them ultra popular

[smoky quest]

definitely. But they were already standard in their use in the US

The main issues with leetcode type questions are when you have to know the trick or be in the situation where either you already know or you fail. These tests don't teach you anything about the candidate.
However, they are a great way to package a skill with the minimum context. I find it useful when you stay away from the trick questions and focus more on the thought process and how to solve it. Mine happen to all be extracted from real world problem I have faced, just reduced to their essentials and that has worked out fine and candidates give good feedback about it

Some other folks I know do prefer a small take home project. It's wrapped up behind things like calling a paginated api, but you do end up still having to write some algorithms for it.
So in terms of candidates for backend, not being comfortable with algorithms will be a great limitation to your career

[marsh wind]

In our team while interviewing we usually just took either a current problem we face or a recently solved one, decouple it a bit from the whole thing and present to candidates in interviews. Usually that worked pretty well to understand how they approach problems,think about them, how they choose different techniques or technologies and tools

[smoky quest]

Still have to be careful about the "they make us solve their problems for free" crowd 😉

[safe loom]

question for job hunters:

• how often do you apply a day
• do you write cover letters
• have you been called back

[velvet shard]

1. 1-2 times a week lol
2. never
3. have we ever been called back? yes

[dapper depot]

you can write a form cover letter and then fill in the job title or whatever, but I'm not convinced it matters, they're pretty BS

if there was a job I was specifically passionate for and a good fit, I'd write an actual cover letter, but not otherwise

oh and if I did that I'd send it to someone in particular, not upload it to some resume software, because otherwise it's unlikely to be read at all

[summer roost]

• You should say what it's a Bachelor's degree of - Computer Science? Something else?
• Did you have any special courses that you took, or any specialization that you can list with the degree? Do you list the university name?
• If you have any prior work experience, you should list it - even if it's not relevant to the job you're applying for, telling them that you've held down a job at a McDonalds or whatever is still useful information for them. Likewise if you've done any teaching assistant stuff, or research assistant, or RA, or anything like that.
• You probably shouldn't list "PyCharm" for your projects - the editor that you used to write them isn't relevant.
• You might want to get a native English speaker to help you revise the bullet points for your project. There's some grammar errors in them. The first one should be "Developed a simple text-based game of Blackjack, allowing the user the flexibility to play the game with the original rules against a computer" - or, better yet, just "Developed a simple text-based game of Blackjack, allowing the user the to play the game with the complete rules against a computer". The second ought to be "Created a web app to forecast the stock prices of a few Fortune 500 companies for a period of 1 to 4 years from the current date using time series analysis, displaying various forecast components"
• You should arrange your projects from most recent to oldest, or from most impressive to least.
• You've got a bunch of links, but those might be lost if someone copy-pastes the resume ingests it into some internal system - you might want to include URLs, if you can
• Hopefully you mention what the 3 major languages you speak are - you might also want to indicate which of them you can write
• You might want to break Git and GitHub out into separate lines
• How is "Spanish" an activity?
• You may want to be more specific about your volunteer activities

[warm token]

where do i get freelance jobs for python projects
NEW

@warm token
where do i get freelance jobs for python projects

[buoyant seal]

in channel description: Discussion: Python and the world of work | NOT FOR RECRUITMENT | For recruitment and jobs, see https://www.python.org/jobs/ and https://www.pythonjobshq.com/

Plus Freelancer.com, Upwork, Indeed, Linkedin and e.t.c.

[full wharf]

often wayyy more than just python based on the project so be prepared

[jovial reef]

I want to learn python to become an ai Engineer

Do you guys recommend it and will it have a high demand in future and along with python would I have to learn ant other new skills?

[inner wren]

Hey @vapid jay!

Uh-oh! It looks like your message got zapped by our spam filter. We currently don't allow .txt attachments, so here are some tips to help you travel safely:

• If you attempted to send a message longer than 2000 characters, try shortening your message to fit within the character limit or use a pasting service (see below)

• If you tried to show someone your code, you can use codeblocks
(run !code-blocks in #bot-commands for more information) or use a pasting service like:

https://paste.pythondiscord.com

[vast shoal]

This channel is for discussion of Python careers and the world of work.

Please take this to off-topic.

[smoky quest]

I second the feedback from gobblegeek. Also:

• The multiple column format isn't parsed well by ATSes
• With regards to projects: you explain what they are, which is great, but you don't really sell them or talk about how you went about it. Like the stock price analysis, I have no idea is it's something too simple to matter or something that get me interested in talking to you
• You need to specify which languages. No one know your area, or would even care about your area
• You skill set looks a bit small and more could be added there

[torpid saddle]

79 or 120 characters?

[waxen edge]

Anyone here review resumes? I don't want to dox myself on here though.

[gritty rivet]

You can remove identifying details like Monsieur_A just did above

[marsh wind]

We don't make them write any code, just play around with ideas

Usually we offer rather complex problems for which we already have our own ideas. So often it can be us guiding candidate to our idea

[waxen edge]

I didn't put my personal project since I have added a link to my Linkedin which includes them

[uneven river]

@waxen edge at first glance, its too wordy

Recruiters scan your resume for maybe 15 seconds max before deciding whether to invite you to interview. Too many words means it's difficult to find the important/interesting stuff and the whole resume gets tossed in some cases

[muted kraken]

I'm a recent Computer Science graduate, and just received an offer for a Junior Data Warehouse Developer role in a healthcare organisation. What kind of interview questions can I be asked? Would anyone give me some tips on how I can prepare for this?

[lusty folio]

@muted kraken Looks like you're going to need 20 years + experience for that junior position

[whole vale]

what jobs would you be applying for with this resume?
the first thing that jumped at me was the using of the word "we" in your current position

[slow cipher]

I have a question on cover letter, if anyone can tell me something on it, that will be a lot helpful

[muted kraken]

lol How come? It's specifically an entry-level position...

[waxen edge]

But how do I reduce the word count without reducing the work that I have done

[lusty folio]

probably ose the animu

[late jacinth]

huh what?

[lusty folio]

lose

[balmy mural]

This channel is not for recruiting

[vast shoal]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[dense comet]

Hi

I have a question guys, Is python a good choice to start your own career on programming ? I already know that it’s much easier than cpp,Java, JavaScript and so on but it also seems abstract. When I start learning that I feel that I didn’t get some details

So my case here, Is it good for me to start with C++ then I switched for python ? I need python for some domains in data science.

[vast shoal]

For your long-term career, the choice of language doesn't really matter that much. Once you become experienced, you can pick up new languages very quickly, because languages have general programming concepts in common. So what you should be most concerned with in the short term is which language will let you learn those general concepts most easily, and I would argue that Python is one of the best choices available for that. Once you become comfortable with Python, learning something like C++ will be much, much easier than to start with C++ from scratch.

[dense comet]

Thank you for explaining.

Well, I’ve asked many exp engineers they have said that Python is a good choice to start with. It’s easy and it won’t be that dark. So yeah I just learn the basic fundamentals of programming through it and then switched to c++ I felt that I get the concept in more closer way. It doesn’t affect that much special once you become experienced as you said it will be so fast to switch

[vast shoal]

C++ is different from Python in some ways, but at least it's only those differences you will need to learn and not also the fundamentals of programming. Besides, it's useful to learn multiple programming languages, because it helps you understand programming from multiple points of view and grants you a deeper understanding of programming in general.

[wild bay]

When you are first learning to program, you are really simultaneously learning at least two things:

(1) The syntax of the language you are learning in
(2) How to think algorithmically

With C++, you must also learn a third thing:

(3) Memory management

Also C++ is a lot more complicated syntax wise. It was the first language that I learned, but I think Python is a much better choice as a first language. You will be able to focus mainly on the algorithmic thinking part and the rest "just works" most of the time

[ocean ledge]

what the heck is a data warehouse developer? do you mean DBA?

how's your sql?

[gritty rivet]

A data warehouse is more than a database and a developer is not an administrator. Data engineering is really its own field at this point even if it overlaps with what DBAs do

[ocean ledge]

sure-- so call it that, a data engineer

"data warehouse engineer" sounds like "forced title inflation" until we really know what that role pertains

[waxen edge]

well, "we" as in my other co-founders and I.
And as far as the type of jobs, anything in the Computer Vision/ML domain with perhaps some backend work would be my goal.

[safe loom]

What's a data warehouse engineer? Some domain of data engineering?

Also, can you apply for a data engineer job if you have a bit of background as a data scientist? Assuming they want you anyway or even call you back.

[ocean ledge]

it depends-- what is your skillset as a data scientist? it's a vague title, so it can range the gauntlet of "i run basic models on sklearn and write powerpoints for sales reps" to "manage dozens of simultaneous experiments on infra you set up on k8s and can understand the entire mlops lifecycle"

[safe loom]

It goes from "can scrap data using requests, bs4 and selenium under an organized way inside a pipeline", "can tune parameters for CV models with pytorch and organize a pipeline" to "can deploy an AI model over an API with FastAPI" + "some frontend with React" + "can deploy containers with Docker and docker-compose"

[ocean ledge]

uhh, i guess you can try applying for data engineering jobs, though it might be a bit tough

[safe loom]

Even if I mention I'm a fast learner because they might feel like I'm not "trustworthy" enough?

[safe loom]

Should I try cardboard projects to show I can use x and y?

[ocean ledge]

i have no idea what trustworthiness has to do with it? it's your experience or lack thereof-- you can learn tools all you want, but if you are already in a data science position, you might as well get involved at your company in engineering efforts

investigate gaps in your ingestion and validation processes, see if there are redundant pipelines, unscaled workloads, etc

that's the best way to learn this kind of stuff-- by being forced to by the issues at your company

[safe loom]

That's the thing: I don't have a job and I've been spending days sending applications without any sign of potential interview.

[ocean ledge]

oh-- what about your previous background as a data scientist? did you have no engineering involvement then?

also days is a small amount of time-- just be persistent

a few weeks seems to be the average around here for job searches

[safe loom]

I tried applying to a job board for startups in Paris but no response + they barely even update. That's where I could strike.

oh-- what about your previous background as a data scientist? did you have no engineering involvement then?
Does webdev count? I was hired for data science but they met a shortage of webdevs so I had to learn React + set up containers on GCP for them to use (even though it was on a VM so idk if it was the best way to launch an app in production).

[ocean ledge]

uhh

[safe loom]

How many weeks? Because I'm at my 3rd or 4th and so far no sign of interest. Got refusals saying I wasn't fit for the job or I had too little experience (even as a data scientist).

[ocean ledge]

i don't know about hiring data engineers with just docker experience-- we expect data scientists to be familiar with docker to begin with

[ocean ledge]

how many years of exp do you have total in data science?

[safe loom]

1 (2 if you count the projects I did at the bootcamp)

[ocean ledge]

those don't count, unfortunately

but 1 is alright-- it's still "junior"-ish

if you want to go into something more engineering-adjacent, you might need to supplement with some other tools

the most broad of which would be experience with some cloud stack

[safe loom]

Any solution that doesn't involve more studying? I've tried a second master degree and a bootcamp. I'm in my late 20s and I'm sick of cranking up information for an uncertain future. Hell I'm sick of having to check requirements for HR managers that won't even bat an eye.

[ocean ledge]

you mentioned GCP, so going a bit deeper with it might be good

the general rule of thumb is: if you get calls and don't get jobs, you suck at interviewing

if you apply to lots of jobs and you don't get calls, your resume has an issue

the nature of that resume may differ based on what you're applying to, who you contact, etc

if you have an incredibly niche skillset that would make an HR person (who are overwhelmingly nontechnical) not understand you, then consider sending messages on linkedin or whatever to hiring managers directly (who are generally technical)

[safe loom]

Don't they usually transfer "potentially" interesting resumes to these people anyway?

[smoky quest]

In every company I have seen, the hiring manager does the screening of the resumes. The recruiter may yeet the ones who obviously are way out there but would defer to the hiring manager in doubt

[safe loom]

Also speaking of LinkedIn, would calling for help there and publishing your resume be useful?

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't publicly ask for help since it may sound desperate.
But I would make sure my profile has all the right keywords so your profile does surface during searches

[muted kraken]

Correct me if Im wrong but from my understanding Data Warehouse (DWH) is a central consolidated DB that contains massive collection of ETL-processed data from things (data sources) like spreadsheets/ERP/CRM

[muted kraken]

To be honest I would say I know pretty much the essentials of SQL, such as the commands you would use for CRUD operations etc

But in terms of years of experience, I haven't got an awful lot

[marsh wind]

what about tricky joins, groupby and aggregation queries? those kind of stuff, or window functions?

[turbid rampart]

JS

[dry sapphire]

a data warehouse, in the very general sense, is just any store for structured data. but yes, it is generally what sits at the end of an ETL flow, and it usually involves a database.

[summer roost]

compare to a "data lake", which is a big pool of raw data, kept around in case some new use might be found for it

[muted kraken]

Aggregation queries? Like grouping multiple rows together to retrieve single summary entry? Yeah I can do that

Pretty good with basic joins/inner joins.. but not sure if that's relevant to this Junior DWH position, is it?

Also, what's "window functions"? Never heard of that before lol

[muted kraken]

If you say data lake is that, how would you guys summarise what "big data" is, then?

[summer roost]

"big data" is mostly a buzz word, from what I've seen. The term "big data" is supposed to refer to quantities of data that are so large as to not be able to be processed with standard tools like relational databases. Few companies actually have that, but lots of companies claim they do because they think it sounds cool.

[muted kraken]

For the Junior Data Warehouse Developer position, would the day-to-day role consist of preparing insightful data for analytics/reporting/visualisation or operational uses?

[meager tree]

Would scraping data, putting it into a spreadsheet, then pushing it back out on some sort of website in a simpler format (such as an interactive graphic or chart) be considered an example of ETL?

[summer roost]

I'm guessing the latter, but it's hard to know. The job description should give you a better idea.

[summer roost]

Yes

[crimson crater]

java dead career?

[summer roost]

No, though it's less popular now than it was 10 years ago.

[crimson crater]

prob also gonne be lesss popular 10 years from now

[summer roost]

but also, most people don't pick one language and stick with it for the rest of their life.

[crimson crater]

true, but would you add java to the list of language your gonne learn

[summer roost]

maybe, maybe not. That's hard to predict.

[summer roost]

It's very, very similar to C# - which is rising in popularity. So, ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[crimson crater]

i heard that java is neither fast to write or run amd that languages like python and c++ are better ate one of those things

[muted kraken]

• Relevant experience working in industry systems/technologies supporting Data Management/ Business Intelligence
• Experience in Microsoft SQL Server, SSIS, SSAS, ADF, Azure Synapse Analytics and Cloud technologies.
• Analytical skills to interpret complex data specifications and requirements to derive work plans for the data analysts
• You must have the ability to think creatively and should always be seeking new and more efficient ways to improve systems.
``` This is what it specifies under the: "Role requirements & qualifications" heading of this job...  I have experience with like 10% of the mentioned tools/technologies.. but I've managed to be offered an interview

[summer roost]

Java is slower to write than Python, but faster to write than C++.
When a Java program first starts up it runs pretty slowly, though still not as slowly as Python. After warming up, it can run about as fast as C++.

[crimson crater]

so its a middle in the road language

how can java run as fast as c++ doesent it run im a vm or something?

also garabage collection i heard slows it down

[summer roost]

every language has advantages and disadvantages. Java is at its best when many different people work on the code (it's a highly structured language in a way that forces you to organize the code in manageable components), and it's at its best for long-running processes. It's a bad choice of language for quick tasks and one-off projects.

[summer roost]

It has a Just In Time compiler that makes hot paths skip the virtual machine and run as native machine code.

[crimson crater]

minecraft is prob a good example

[crimson crater]

doesent that make it that it can run on all devices?

[true harness]

it's not the JIT that does that, it's the virtual machine part

[crimson crater]

also have nu clue what hoth paths or what you just said mean

[summer roost]

"hot paths" means the places where the program spends most of its time.

[crimson crater]

and just in time compiler?

[summer roost]

the reason it gets better as it runs longer is that it figures out where those places are, and it progressively optimizes them to be faster and faster.

[true harness]

"just in time" refers to parts of the code being compiled at runtime to machine code. in contrast to "ahead of time" which compiles everything to machine code before anything runs

[summer roost]

it compiles to native machine code, but only some of the code, and only while the process is running

[crimson crater]

when i play mc are hot paths created while i play?

[summer roost]

This bullet:

• Analytical skills to interpret complex data specifications and requirements to derive work plans for the data analysts
makes me pretty certain that you won't be doing the data analysis directly, but that they've got data analysts who are not software engineers, and you may be responsible with figuring out how to get them the data they need for their analyses

[summer roost]

sure - a "hot path" is just a place where the program spends a lot of its time. Every program has parts that are more time consuming and parts that are less.

[crimson crater]

yea then java sounds allot better then the guy on yt told it was, even tho he recommended to learn it

[muted kraken]

Soo it's a SQL-oriented role with data analytics / BI, would you say?

If you was to explain what Business Intelligence is to non-techy people, how would you explain it concisely and with clarity?

[summer roost]

I'm guessing the job is primarily administration of the data store and ingestion of data into it, and secondarily figuring out efficient ways for people to query it based on their specific needs (which might be SQL, but might not always be)

[jagged hearth]

Is machine learning way harder than data science or are they on equal footing? If so what do machine learning focus on?

[final jolt]

Machine Learning is a subfield of statistics that data scientists (and other people in the tech sector) use to solve problems. You can leverage machine learning algorithms other people have implemented without knowing much math yourself, but it helps to understand what's going on

Generally, understanding machine learning is something data scientists are tasked with doing, but these days, there are several data/analytics related job positions under that umbrella:

• Machine Learning Engineer: A software engineer who helps data scientists take their models from prototype to production
• Machine Learning Ops: Helps a data scientist and ML engineer keep the infrastructure for running experiments and running production machine learning code running.
• Data Scientist: Very much a catch-all term for people who leverage data to solve problems, but usually these days with an emphasis on designing a model/algorithm that solves a task

-Business Analyst: Typically a bridge role between data/tech centric work and marketing / leadership for aligning business objective with the goals of the technical people

But this is just semantics, and the words that employers use to determine what someone does for their day-to-day can vary widely between employers

[jagged hearth]

I heard s.o on here said that data scientist focus mainly on algorithm and presentation though

[final jolt]

That sounds close to what I've heard as well

[jagged hearth]

so i were quite confused about the designing model/algorithm part

[final jolt]

what's confusing?

I'd be happy to try and clarify.

[jagged hearth]

Correct me if i am wrong but isn't the designing algorithm part supposed to be the programmer part?

[final jolt]

Well, a big difference between a data scientist and a programmer is that they are usually trying to solve different sorts of problems

But it isn't always a perfect distinction between the two

Most data scientists know how to program, but a data scientist typically wouldn't be tasked with doing something like... validating user input on a website

[jagged hearth]

oh that clear things up for me

tks

[final jolt]

no problem

[vast shoal]

Designing an algorithm or a model in DS is like, select the best ML algorithm for the job, or combine existing ones in an appropriate way, and select hyperparameters correctly.

I assume it's much rarer to try to actually invent a new ML algorithm from scratch.

[true mortar]

<@&831776746206265384>

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @true mortar until <t:1639043848:f> (9 minutes and 59 seconds) (reason: mentions rule: sent 24 mentions in 10s).

[muted kraken]

You know for the following point, I have never used SSIS/SSAS/ADF/Azure ever before nor have I got any experience working with industry systems supporting data management but have come across data analytics using NLP, text-mining & data visualisation and SQL-scripting with relational DBMSs (not sure if that's the kind of answer they're looking for on the interview?) Plus I have more experience developing webapps (frontend/backend) than I do for this particular role • Relevant experience working in industry systems/technologies supporting Data Management/ Business Intelligence • Experience in Microsoft SQL Server, SSIS, SSAS, ADF, Azure Synapse Analytics and Cloud technologies.

[summer roost]

The "required skills" sections of job posts are usually wish lists of what the perfect candidate would have, rather than actual minimum requirements.

[sick raft]

.

[craggy wave]

In The Netherlands, we've got a fitting idiom for that (there's probably an English equivalent but I don't it): "zoeken naar een schaap met vijf poten" or "searching for a sheep with five legs". A lot of job listings I see ask for a single individual that has the combined skills of multiple people.

Since I work in the "IT service provider & consultancy" industry, I see a lot of tenders that ask for a huge list of technologies, more than a single individual typically has experience with in their recent past. The list is often so long that it's quite impossible to have had professional experience with all those techs in the last few years, unless you were hoping from tech to tech every few weeks.

[summer roost]

I can't think of an English idiom for that sentiment off the top of my head. I like it.

[barren trout]

..'We are looking for 10 years of experience in ...'A' , 'B'...'
But 'A' and 'B' weren't even in existence before the last 5 years! 🙂

[silent musk]

What would you recommend for my first medium lvl portfolio project?

[vast shoal]

A CRUD web app.

[silent musk]

thanks

[muted kraken]

What kind of SQL technical-related questions can a candidate be asked on an interview for a Junior DW Developer position?

[marsh wind]

probably typical SQL stuff, i.e. explain what are transactions and why we need them, questions about what are indices, why we need them (and here it can go a lot deeper, i.e. partial indices, composite indices, etc). What is ACID properties? What is lock and how it can be dangerous? You can probably look up many more sql questions, but these are ones we asked to candidates for backend dev postions and I'd imagine that for DW stuff you would not expect less

[muted kraken]

Even for a Junior post, they'd ask technical questions like that? I seriously didn't know about ACID until today

[glass shuttle]

This isn't really related to python but has anyone experienced a few too many toxic work environments and just totally lost interest in doing dev as a career but don't know what else they want to do?

[marsh wind]

for sure. That is not to say that junior is expected to answer all

[smoky quest]

While there is some leeway and looking more for potential than knowledge/expertise, ACID is one of the basic elements in the world of DBs. Not knowing about it could get you rejected in many places and thus something I would recommend to brush up

[smoky quest]

if the problem is the work environment, then change your work environment? There are tons of jobs out there.
Also take some vacation 🙂

[glass shuttle]

I've been out of work for 2.5ish years now? I've started finding my way back to dev, first back through java and now I've decided to switch over to python. It took quite a while to get to this point. I think where I am at is I want to start looking for work again but its been so long and I have a lot of hang ups about getting back in. The best way to describe is that I feel uncertain. I've been in regular therapy and all that but my doctor doesn't know the industry so I haven't made a whole lot of progress on the stuff tripping me up about working in dev again. I have wanted to try to talk about this somewhere for a while now, not really sure what sort of advice I'm looking for to be honest.

[smoky quest]

Since you used to enjoy it, you may want to focus on things you enjoy. At least it works for me when I start feeling burnt out a bit. Like doing some small projects on topics you enjoy or learning about new topics just for the fun of it.
Note also the teams work best when they enjoy their work and appreciate their impact. Besides money, it's common to consider these three factors to enjoy your work:

• Autonomy
• Mastery
• Purpose

Overall, toxic environment don't make for thriving teams and are to be avoided in general

[glass shuttle]

Is it possible to find a non-toxic team/environment if you don't have a competitive skillset? I think my issue was I just took whatever jobs I could get due to imposter syndrome + lack of certain skills I thought I needed. I have about 4-5 years in the industry and a handful of different jobs which all were awful, terrible places to work and all but one had toxic team members and dynamic.

[marsh wind]

well, tbh if you never had followed proper CS and/or RDMBS classes you might not know the abbreviation ACID but if you worked with DBs and especially SQL for sure you are expected to understand these things even if you don't know it's called ACID

[smoky quest]

ACID is plastered all over the websites, docs, answers to questions on stackoverflow...
I am not arguing whether or not it is required (tbh, I do agree it's required), I am just stating that failure to know about it will make them fail quite a few interviews considering it's one of these universal basic questions

[smoky quest]

These are two different things.
You can have non competitive teams that are toxic as well as competitive teams that are toxic. Same for competitive teams too.

[smoky quest]

It's also a separate topic, but I would recommend to work on your imposter syndrome. There is a lot of good thing which can come from pushing yourself and stretching your skills.

[marsh wind]

well yeah, if you read docs of likes of postgres you surely will see "ACID". but if, like many people (me included) learning of sql was a bit chaotic you could totally miss it ( I know I did for quite a while).But overall I agree it's required to understand those princples, hence I mentioned them in first place 🙂

[glass shuttle]

Totally true. I had a team I really liked but that job sort of poofed over a year after a contract take over. Really sucked. Next job (my last job) was for a short amount of time and everyone was really depressed. It was an agency, surprise surprise.

[smoky quest]

yeah, just read a bit on it and be able to explain the acronyms and you will be good to go. It's also useful to know anyway, especially if you go into bigdata/nosql

[glass shuttle]

Any tips? Like reciting affirmations to myself I guess? Completing challenging stuff? I google this stuff all the time but reading blogs is getting so tiring.

[smoky quest]

Some things I would say, which are easy to say but tough to do:

• Don't think worry about failure. Things will rarely fail in practice. Either they become learning or other opportunities pop up
• Make lists on paper to separate the unreasonable fears (ie. things that are just in you mind) from actual potential issues. The benefit is it will trim down the list of things to be afraid of and then you have a list of things you can work on or prepare for to address these
• There is a say about fake it until you make it. Which is actually true.
• Being good/high quality aren't states. They are processes. It's never about being great or a failure. It's about how you learn from mistake and grow from there. And most failures aren't fatal

[marsh wind]

not sure it's more important for nosql versus sql though. acid is at the core of sql after all. And if you take cassandra for example, acid there seems much less trivial....

[muted kraken]

@marsh wind @smoky quest What else should I brush up on in regards to SQL? I've already made notes on the following: ```
Tables/Fields/Entities/Relationships
DDL/DML/DCL
Normalisation
Constraints / PK / FK
Stored Procedures
SQL Transactions
SQL Indexes
Aggregrate/Scalar Functions
Query Optimisation
Data Integrity
Data Warehousing
Business Intelligence
ACID

[smoky quest]

I am probably going on a tangent, but what I was going at is that for SQL, most DBs are pretty much expected to be ACID. So not much surprises there.
But when it comes to nosql, it's a free for all. So knowing about the trade offs and how each technology relates to it can have a great impact

[marsh wind]

oh, right now I got what you mean. then I agree, as with RDBMS (SQL usually) ACID is pretty straightforward.... noSql... no, thanks, my experience with Cassandra was decidedly not fun

[glass shuttle]

thanks so much for this. you've given me a lot to think and journal about. i appreciate the quality advice.

[smoky quest]

definitely!
Especially the fake open source going on in some of the projects, which make things more difficult than they ought to be

[marsh wind]

fake open source? you mean mongo?

[smoky quest]

There is also one thing which can help:
With enough experience, you will see so many idiots or undeserving people progressing that it may help you too. Because if these people can, then why not you?

[smoky quest]

cassandra, mongo, kafka, elastic, etc.

[smoky quest]

is it for DBA or data warehouse? ( I saw some mentions here and there, but to make sure)

[glass shuttle]

hahaha, yeah ive seen that many, many times but then that question you posed makes me cry because i can't answer it. but you're right and that can be thought of in a positive way instead of a negative one.

[muted kraken]

Data Warehouse 🙂

[smoky quest]

depending on the company/role, I would probably add processes and tools to ingest/transform/schedule processes of that data

[smoky quest]

yep, you aren't more stupid or less deserving than others. You may tend to overestimate others and underestimate yourself

[muted kraken]

On the job description they did specify the following technologies:
Microsoft SQL Server, SSIS, SSAS, ADF, Azure Synapse Analytics and Cloud technologies. But with Ms-SQL (since I've used it quite a few times), what core features should I know, excluding the other tools?

[smoky quest]

MS-SQL is just their current techno they use.
If you know a similar one, that will be fine. Skills are transferable. Unless they are really looking for an expert who can teach others about it, but they would call it out as it would be special

[muted kraken]

Mhmmm would they really ask questions related to functionalities / core features of DBMSs on the job interview? 🤔

[smoky quest]

for junior level? nothing deep

[dry sapphire]

probably nothing beyond "how does SQL compare to NoSQL", "what's a group by", "how do you speed up queries that only filter on one column"; stuff like that

[ruby folio]

can someone explain what SQL is for me

it's like some data analysis stuff right?

[smoky quest]

This channel is about career discussions.
For technical questions about SQL, you would have more chances in #databases

But yes, SQL is used pretty much in every place and role where a database is involved

[ruby folio]

Ok hardo I just looked up and saw SQL mentioned like twelve time so I thought I'd ask

[smoky quest]

no problem softie

[cold sun]

Hi

[hardy geode]

do you need a degree in order to qualify at a tech company?

[summer roost]

Not necessarily, but it's tremendously helpful. It's very hard to stand out as a good candidate when most of the others have degrees and you don't.

[hardy geode]

What are chances of getting a job without one?

Even if u have the skills for it

[fiery sentinel]

Impossible to quantify, although many have done it and it’s definitely possible. I don’t have a STEM degree (finance) and am in software engineering.

[summer roost]

That's hard to quantify, but as a wild guess, a degree probably makes it somewhere between 10x and 50x easier to get your first software development job at a tech company.

Having any degree is a huge help, also. Having no degree at all puts you at a disadvantage even against people with non-STEM degrees.

[fiery sentinel]

If I had the money to get my CS degree and switch out of finance I would have 100% I do not recommend self teaching if you can afford university. Self teaching is the hardest possible route, there’s a reason why people are out there willing to pay 5 figures for bootcamps or go back to school.

That being said, if uni isn’t an option I always recommend taking a stab at The Odin Project and see if you can commit yourself to it before doing a bootcamp or other paid option

[hardy geode]

Wait what country are you in?

[fiery sentinel]

USA

[hardy geode]

What the purpose of self teaching if job's are willing to accept people with degrees

[fiery sentinel]

Because you can get in the door somewhere eventually without a degree.

[hardy geode]

so the advantage of having a degree will get you into a job easier?

[summer roost]

Much, much easier.

[dull silo]

I've bachelor's in commerce and took a 6 month course of full stack. What are my chances of getting a job in a english country (im, an indian btw)

[buoyant seal]

if u aren't living in the english country? the chances are extremely low for beginners
usually things are out sourced only to middle-senior grade workers, but even in that case getting hired to a different country is a bit of a mess.

[dull silo]

Ahh so that's how it is. Thanks

[near ocean]

do you need a visa?

[dull silo]

Why you givin one? 😅

[buoyant seal]

well, the first thing different country needs is having ability to have a contract with you.
Usually it is possible only if you are jurisdical entity. (in easiest case you are company out of one person basically)

as alternative contracts can go through third party platforms like Freelancer.com

[near ocean]

just thinking that the chances of getting a job in the UK would be close to zero if you dont have a visa, i dont see anyone reasonable offering to sponsor a complete newbie just like that

[buoyant seal]

having working permission via visa would be alternative case, yeah

[dull silo]

No idh one 🥺

[marsh wind]

in that case if your goal is to leave India to get job in western countries as opposed to get remote job from the company from western countries, the best bet is usually get accepted into Uni there

[vast shoal]

I didn't know about the Odin Project, that's cool.

[near ocean]

sadly its in ruby, when i asked why theyre not teaching in a more popular lang they were pretty snappy at me lol

[vast shoal]

They have a JS track.

So maybe they listened to you after all.

[near ocean]

oh thats new lol, nice
well its not new, i just havent checked in a while

[jaunty cradle]

question: what would I call my experience in data structures and algos? I have done stuff like hash tables, linked lists, trees, heaps, quicksort, mergesort, shell sort, insertion sort etc
would it be a good idea just to list them all or

[near ocean]

you mean academic knowledge? would not call that experience and would definitely not list them in a CV

[vast shoal]

Those are fundamentals that you would expect any developer to be familiar with. It would look very strange to put it on your CV.

Like putting on your CV that you're familiar with algebra.

[jaunty cradle]

true, I am a first year so I am trying to pad it out

[near ocean]

use them in a project and then maybe you could reference them

ie make an algo visualisation project, then maybe you could say you used a couple sorting algos or path finding algos
also algo visualisation project is one of the hot ones for a CV because its easy to show off

[jaunty cradle]

is it worth doing for the more basic algos? there is a more advanced second year course. or should I just expand it when I get there

[jaunty cradle]

most complex ones would be the ones I mentioned

[vast shoal]

Make a generic framework for visualizing for example sorting algos and then implement a bunch of them.

Should be easy to add new ones that way

[near ocean]

its worth doing it for any algo you know/learn
its a whole project, not like you can implement quicksort and call it a day, you could build a site to show it off, learn JS for the visuals, the backend to run the server, etc
its a whole thing

[vast shoal]

For example

Yeah, that's a great project

[jaunty cradle]

oh I see I didn't realise I was making a website

does the JS and backend stuff go far in? again taking the courses next year so don't wanna relearn too much

[vast shoal]

Something like this page: https://www.toptal.com/developers/sorting-algorithms

[vast shoal]

What do you mean "relearn"?

[jaunty cradle]

dumb question?

[vast shoal]

No, I don't understand what you're referring to

What would you be relearning?

[jaunty cradle]

javascript course next semesteer

[vast shoal]

So you don't want to learn JS now because you'll study it next year and you don't want to study it too much?

[jaunty cradle]

im asking to the extent I would need to learn it

[vast shoal]

I don't really know how to answer that question. To the extent necessary to make that website.

I can't really give you an answer like "45% of the language".

But anyway, I would say that there's no such thing as studying a topic too much. This is an opportunity to get a headstart and deepen your understanding before you start your course. It'll help you get a better grade and if you get bored you can always study more advanced JS-related topics next year instead of the basics you would have been learning.

And JS is extremely practically useful.

[jaunty cradle]

ok thanks

[vast shoal]

And JS knowledge is definitely something you can put on your CV.

And something that can make a huge impact on your chances of getting an interview.

[jaunty cradle]

very noob question, is there a way to host a website for free

[vast shoal]

Cloud services like AWS and Google Cloud have free tiers, I believe.

And when they're not free, they're very cheap for a personal website, since you generally pay for the traffic.

(Cloud service knowledge is also something worth putting on your CV btw)

[jaunty cradle]

would you mind moving to dms? this 20 second timer is killing me

[vast shoal]

No, sorry, I don't do DMs.

The point of the timer is to ensure that people put more thought into their messages.

[fathom stirrup]

Hey

[jaunty cradle]

could I open a help channel or something then since I would be asking how to structure the site. am thinking react frontend with a django backend rn but that might be a bit ambitious

[fathom stirrup]

@vast shoal quick question

What is the function to randomize the items of a list in-place?

[vast shoal]

Sure.

I think I know who you're referring to, and they've been banned, but you can send a DM to @severe widget for future reference.

[near ocean]

this isnt a help channel, see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[jaunty cradle]

#help-pear

[vast shoal]

@whoever just asked about DM ads.

[fathom stirrup]

actually i was just making a solution

the answer is, The shuffle() method randomizes the items of a list in place.

[jaunty cradle]

mute speedrun

[vast shoal]

Again, this is a channel for career discussions. You can ask in #python-discussion or see #❓｜how-to-get-help.

[fathom stirrup]

Oh ok, thanks for your help

[fringe rain]

hey, I am a radiologist but i am curious about learning to code as i have realized so much of the stuff in radiology and also in the medical field can be automated by forming basic algorithms. I have joined a basic courses on edx(cs50) and a python course on udemy.

may somebody suggest me how to go about it? or is it worth giving a shot combining these fields?

[surreal bronze]

Do you think AdventOfCode make a CV better ?

[vast shoal]

CS50 is a really good course, and while I'm not familiar with radiology, it seems like all the STEM fields are benefitting from automation and scripting these days.

[near ocean]

Its December, time for the year end review, what do people usually ask/get asked during these reviews?
I'm gonna put together a "presentation" for the managing director and give a high level overview of the projects im in charge of, how they might mesh together with other projects, some figures about the dev work im doing so far, etc
anything i might want to ask about/emphasize?

[upbeat summit]

idk much of its usage in medical field
but u may get some ideas while ur learning python
or some other languages
and yes scripting is useful when u can apply it to some fields

[obsidian acorn]

Hey @fringe rain, Most definitely. There are currently much development using automation and machine learning in the Medical field that you could get into. Within the medical field, much of the programming goes into creating software to be used in the health care, (a lot of them are hardware based), but you can definitely go towards the automation aspect

Also, most of them are very academic based, so, a lot of R&D, and research papers. if you are interested in that route, it is a great route to want to be on.

have you done any research on what you want to automate? or is there anything else you want to do you particularly using programming?

[fringe rain]

not yet. still in 1st year of residency. but something like basic algorithms for common symptoms, what do next, what basic tests needs to be done before visiting a physician, and who to refer to based on results. also majority of medical imaging reporting can be just automated by using a large data sets of whats normal and whats abnormal, thinking about that too

[fringe rain]

how would programming help in that?

[fringe rain]

okay, thank you!

[dull silo]

Do you mean to enroll in a college? I'm 22 💀

[obsidian acorn]

@fringe rain in terms of image, we already have researches using ML on ct scans to help in diagnosing patients cases, so, that is a definite way to go, as that field still has much to involve. so that would be the ML route. in terms of what needs to be done, who to visit, you can write software either web base with back end that has access to a preset and evolving databases. You can probably involve ML on the later too. or you can do both using python. But in terms of the images, you would need to have those images classified, and studied, and continuously updated. But these are great ideas for you to work towards.

[fringe rain]

okay thank you so much, just a last dumb question should i just start with python or would you recommend anything else?

[marsh wind]

yes I do. well, maybe not a college but grad school, i,e, pursue a master's degree

i.e. I have a colleague from India who is 30-ish now and I believe he came here (France) for his Masters when he was around 25-26 (he did his bachelors in India, worked theere couple years and then came here)

[vast shoal]

Python is a great first programming language, and it also happens to be the most popular language in ML and data science, so I'd say it's pretty much ideal for you.

It's very suited to developing the kind of web application you might have in mind for automating initial diagnostics and such as well.

[obsidian acorn]

in addition to dementia's response, taking the other course is really good as well, as it will expose you to some algorithms that you will need to know later on. But yeah, python is the way to start.

[marsh wind]

And I know more than one person from India, who made that kind of decision in their mid 20s give or take and came to Europe to do their Masters or PhD and then to stay as that way is generally easier than getting hired directly from India

[fringe rain]

okay, thanks again!

[dull silo]

Yeah that's a good idea, but I can't help but be insecure about it financially

Well I'll think about after I get a job in India and make some work experience

[fringe rain]

what "other course" are you referring to?

[obsidian acorn]

edx(cs50)

[fringe rain]

okay great! thanks for your help

[marsh wind]

yes, I believe it can be an option. Then again, there are certian grad programs where you would either get a scholarship or it will be an apprenticeship where you study at Uni, say 2-3 days a week and 2-3 days you work at the company that will pay your studies and some extra that you can live of

[left socket]

This might make more financial sense too. Masters and PhDs are generally cheaper per year than undegrad. However, the former gives you less time to look for job opportunities, and the latter can be difficult to get in, depending on the university.

[dull silo]

oh I didn't thought about that. I'll try that way as well. Thank you for your advise sir. I'll be hoping more help from you in the future😇 😇

[marsh wind]

well yeah, I wouldn't advice anyone to go into PhD unless they exactly know what they are doing and why they want to do it. Masters is a safe choice usually and often they imply a 3-6 months internships in company which can get you a job in the end.

[vapid jay]

im 17 and cant decide between ai,web dev and cybersecurity. Any tips?

[prime tapir]

job openings are at insane levels, with fully remote US jobs posting four dozen per day on LinkedIn, up from 3-5 half a year ago. Similarly on Indeed, Glassdoor, and Upwork

[true harness]

try them all

[nocturne snow]

Would you guys prefer msft or google for a SE role?

[swift veldt]

It's a much too generic question to really answer. It will depend on many factors like tech stack, product, opportunities to learn, and salary.

[crimson verge]

Can someone please refer me for ML engineers role in india?

[pseudo zephyr]

For cybersecurity you will need to be familiar with web dev

I would advise spending your leisure time exploring web dev field and if it interests you, choose it. And then you may also go into Cybersecurity!

(I'm not a career adviser)

[stable frigate]

js is better '

js is better ' llj#0001

[deep mango]

I have a problem with not knowing when my skills are good enough to apply to a job, and my programming skills are very new. Are there competency tests in the python world I can take / work toward? Maybe a reputable certification process? I am worried I will apply and not have the skills.. because I dont know what I dont know. (probably imposter syndrome)

are there 2 or 3 baseline tests or certs that the industry recognizes as "minimally competent"? I know I can learn as I go, but I dont want to get in to a situation where I am "fake it til you make it"

Udemy
Complete Python Developer in 2022: Zero to Mastery

I'm doing that but I don't know if its a resume line, or basically too low level to even mention. I have no frame of reference for US based. Thanks

[prime tapir]

Have you considered starting with short term such as from e.g. Fiverr or Upwork?

[deep mango]

I definitely had considered that. I was even thinking about working for free for a few projects just to build confidence.

My back ground is in Finance and there are some specific tests that people take that are highly respected and signal competence (maybe haha)

Just wondering if there were a python equivalent. are these useful? https://pythoninstitute.org/certification/

[fiery sentinel]

Lol there is one person who can come off that way in their discord that maintains the project, but I promise they all want what’s best for everyone in there. They’re pretty direct and to the point with questions like that bc it’s usually answered in the content, it gets asked a lot and you can find it in the discord search, and also the language you learn doesn’t really matter it’s moreso the concepts. They also prefer you to find answers on your own, and will often answer your questions with more questions to get you thinking

[prime tapir]

Working for free is easy. if you are lucky you can find an open source package related to what you want to work on

There are some pretty good tests, like hackerrank for example, but none of them are very good in the sense that they're more predictive of job performance than more traditional interviews

[raw sage]

@|| ||

[prime tapir]

they can make a different screen. LinkedIn has a ton of microcerts. those are probably the most widely recognized at present. Indeed has those two, but I think LinkedIn are slightly less proprietary

[deep mango]

thats useful info, thank you.. Ill look into those as well

[prime tapir]

all the platforms and commercial packages over a certain price usually have certification programs, sometimes from third parties

happy to help

[deep mango]

right, everyone has a paper cert but who knows if they are worth having haha

so its good to hear there isnt a "gold standard" I guess...

[prime tapir]

at this point in time i'd go with LinkedIn microcertifications, but don't overdo it. 3-5 may be better than 15

[deep mango]

i agree there too.. too many is just collecting certs

[prime tapir]

like, maybe, Python, SQL, bash, C, algorithms, debuging, dev ops; pick your favorite five, I guess

maybe JavaScript if you're a masochist

naw, that's not fair. as much as Python job postings have skyrocketed in the past half year, JavaScript increased at least as much relatively, and started 10x bigger to begin with

I'm not a fan and am waiting for the glorious piodide in all browsers future

[buoyant seal]

There is no alternative for what it is doing. That's it.

[prime tapir]

Have you tried Piodide or one of the other webassembly pythons?

fnord is spelled }

[thick juniper]

I have no area specialty (I'm probably more a novice than you are), so I can't give that kind of advice. But I am literally twice your age and have done many different things in my life (lawyer, carpenter/ teacher/writer, etc.). So here is some general advice:

At 17 you might feel like you're under the gun for time but you have almost infinite potential still. You are basically nothing but potential still. Do all three, and do some other types of science too. And also mix in some art and something of the humanities. Unless you're about to get married and have kids, you'll have few responsibilities for about a decade. You can master half a dozen disciplines in a decade if you're truly disciplined about it.

[vapid jay]

what should i learn more in this developing world?

C++ or Py???

[analog sun]

Asking this in a Python dedicated server will give you some bias.

Python is my answer

[true harness]

it depends on what you want to do. python is good at things that cpp is bad at, and vice versa

[vapid jay]

-_- pls dont give illogical answers

[analog sun]

Ok.

Python is my answer

[vapid jay]

ok and why ? and why did u choose py and its benefits in future?

If you wanna take a gamble learn rust, very quick, developing language with potential to rival c++

[analog sun]

Python is a very solid, well rounded general purpose computer programming language. I like that I can make scripts to automate tasks and the focus that it has in regards to data science and visualization. I also like the focus on readability and the relative ease at which it can be used to develop powerful tools.

[true harness]

cpp is also solid. it's very fast and low level. and it's probably not going anywhere any time soon

[vapid jay]

i get ur point but wdym by powerful tools? as a beginner i really dont understand what those script will do! like ugh

[vapid jay]

so u mean cpp will not last?

[analog sun]

Powerful tools as in I can write a Python program to do things accurately and quickly, many times faster than I could do manually.

For example, I developed a script to automatically analyze PLC signals to generate cycle times, with visualizations for the measured times vs the target. I also made a group of scripts to take process plans of welding points and to create 3D points out of them, allowing me to visualize which pieces of equipment are creating the points.

This topic isn't quite suited for #career-advice either, but I'd be curious to hear why others like Python so much as well. The only thing I can really say is that I have dedicated my time to learning with Python, and it has paid off quite nicely for my purposes

[vapid jay]

hmm!!! and py is used for Leetcodes too know!?

[analog sun]

Yes, but those types of websites are more focused on getting people to solve problems regardless of the language used to solve them in
As a way to practice with the language they are learning

[vapid jay]

gotcha

[true harness]

cpp will last

[vapid jay]

how! reason and why do u think its not good and who will replace cpp

[true harness]

I'm not sure what you mean. I mean it will be used for a long time

[vapid jay]

i get it but im asking a reason why it will be discontinued in future and who will replace cpp further

[true harness]

it has a lot of debt because it's old. rust maybe, but it's hard to say

[gritty rivet]

Start with Python because it's way easier to learn. Once you know Python, learning C++ and other languages will be easier. So unless you know for certain you only want to do things that can't be done well in Python, definitely start there.

[dull forum]

Actually, I have taken a road down to computer science so what do you recommend for the future

[smoky quest]

Can you be a bit more specific?

[smoky quest]

(and give a bit more context)

[stray dove]

Would data science and software engineering be a good combination for university? (Australia)

[dry sapphire]

if you want to be a software engineer, data scientist, data engineer, or machine learning engineer, certainly

[stray dove]

I want to work in the cryptocurrency field, not sure what job exactly

[alpine mica]

Hi guys, so I got accepted into a program that involves combining aspects of machine learning in cancer research. They have asked me to write a short personal statement about career goals and I am not sure where to start. This is my first time being in a position like this and I would appreciate any advice.

[sour mist]

so like
i'm 14 and coding is like one of my talents
and i wanna know how i can make money with python

cause school is going bad and i don wanna be homeless when i grow up