career-advice

[main thicket]

I don't disagree that they exist, they're just extremely uncommon because you don't need master's to start PhD

[sudden quartz]

highly disagree that they are uncommon, ive never seen a university without a masters in mathematics...

[vapid jay]

I have taught myself a bit of calculus and my god....

[abstract night]

What websites do you guys usually use to look for internships?

[red rivet]

fiver

[vapid jay]

Hey

[glossy orbit]

I have a degree in information systems. I didn’t really learn python but java and databases software. It definitely is hard to get a job without a degree

[glossy orbit]

LinkedIn

[gray anvil]

Country?

[peak halo]

You can't ask for paid opportunities on this server.

(Referring to @rancid fox ^)

[rancid fox]

Sure!

[hasty plover]

Hi folks, this is Sridhar... I have a Bachelors in Technology. Right now working as a backend developer in a company for around 2 years. The work is mostly on Python (flask, django). Any ideas to improve the career and land a reputed company for a high pay. Interested in ML.

[sudden quartz]

linked in is really competition, it might be in your interest to use a alternative where you can focus on local, or at the very least reduce competition. Or of course go do hackathons or networking events

[vapid jay]

A virtual trading web application

[hearty island]

For what? For a project?

[sudden quartz]

wrong channel for that dont you think?

[vapid jay]

Sorry I'm new here buddy

What's the right channel tho?

[sudden quartz]

idk, but this is definently the wrong one

[glossy orbit]

USA

[gray anvil]

Oh that was at the guy looking for work, but he had to delete his message 🙈

[vapid jay]

Guys, for whoever works in DA and DS, which IDE do you use?

[summer roost]

Seems like a better question for #editors-ides

[summer roost]

I'd focus on going broad, rather than deep - there's no sense learning something that the university is going to teach you anyway. Learn Python well, and then maybe try learning another programming language or two - I always recommend C as a good second language.

[vapid jay]

thank

[slate cave]

How would I go about looking for internships for computer science (i'm currently a high school senior)

[sudden quartz]

Learn C, and then learn a object oriented language. I reccomend Rust. Then slam data structures and algortithms hard. Do a bunch of algo questions. Do them forever. Thats all you need to do

[sudden quartz]

Just wait until youre in college. For now, do hackathons and algorithms. If you had connections HS internship would be more realistic

[long socket]

@sudden quartz Sir, how do you think about learning about a framework during college. I'm the second year college student and i wonders about how to get internship later on. Should I just learn algorithms and data structures and also focus about other general course credit

[sudden quartz]

You shouldnt have to touch frameworks... they are large and not for beginners. For a second year college student (rising third year I assume) you should focus on your course credit to keep above a 3.0. Youre about to be a junior, so what you choose to do is highly dependent on your electives. If you dont have projects by now you may as well focus on your schoolwork, invest in a personal project this summer. Youll be good material for an internship next summer

[forest oyster]

do interviewers test you on radix sort

[sudden quartz]

Yes, but getting a question specifically on Radix Sort may not ever happen, because interviewers ask all sorts of data sctructures and algorithm questions.

[summer roost]

Does it interest you? I assume you mean a web development framework. I don't think you need to learn one, by any means, but if you like web development and want to focus more on it, go for it. If so I'd start with a simpler one, like Flask or Bottle, instead of jumping right into Django, which is much larger and more complex

The point about GPA is definitely valid. If you're not keeping up a good GPA, focusing your effort on getting your grades up will have much higher payoff than self teaching a framework would.

[summer roost]

And I think this is compatible with the advice about projects. If you're interested in web development, a project that uses Flask to make a dynamic website of some sort is a pretty approachable project for someone who knows Python and wants to learn web development. Two birds with one stone, learning one of the simpler frameworks and building a project you can show off.

[real herald]

Wht to do after 10

[long socket]

Thank you ❤️

[long socket]

Thank you two godlygeek and greenreligion for super nice advices

[gray anvil]

RE GPA

On many levels higher education is a signalling device rather than a development device

People are assessing you on your ability to function within that challenging environment rather than what you actually learned

[digital fjord]

@vestal igloo please do not advertise in this server

[vestal igloo]

@digital fjord actually the message that I sent is for jobs and internships and since this groups name is career discussion so I thought I may share that message in this group. Sorry for that

[hearty island]

what

[digital fjord]

we do not allow linking actual offers unless they are an example of something, since we have no way to guarantee they are reliable.

[celest plover]

Hey, I would like to ask something. I've learned the basics of Python and I don't really know what should I do. I'd appreciate any advice.

[feral stream]

make projects

like tic tac toe game or a mini guessing game or a calculator or a basic discord bot

[dark lintel]

Hi. This is kinda random but does anyone know what the trick is to get a job? I'm clueless

[hearty island]

the "trick"? I don't think there is a trick. You just apply and keep building your skills/portfolio till you eventually get one.

[sudden quartz]

Its like getting a girlfriend

[dark lintel]

That one is tougher

[sudden quartz]

Yeah, and harder to keep

[hearty island]

🥴

[fluid fern]

i honestly want to know, how critical is it to memorize things like this cause this seems like bs as it would depend from company to company right?
https://puu.sh/HvCw4/a519dd7937.png

[sonic ridge]

I'm looking forward to solving a problem with python

[near ocean]

Naming conventions depend on the language not the company, youre not gonna see a company using python naming their functions using pascalcase

Each company might have different style guidelines when it comes to other parts of the code but i doubt its something youre gonna have to memorise, you just set your formatter to handle that for you

[summer roost]

If you do see a company using camel case method names in Python, it's a strong signal that they don't have very good Python developers, or they suffer badly from NIH and refuse to use existing libraries.

[fluid fern]

so, i guess that mean naming conventions usually revolve around what the community of that language likes to use?

[summer roost]

Right. Some languages don't have very strong conventions, and so it's reasonable for companies to pick a style and try to stick with it. But Python has very strong conventions that are followed nearly everywhere except some of the oldest modules, created before the standards formed.

Modern Python conventionally uses ALL_CAPS_SNAKE_CASE for constants, CamelCase for class names, and lower_snake_case for everything else. If you see people pushing any other naming convention than that, they would appear to be ignorant of Python conventions, which isn't a good sign.

[near ocean]

Things that a company can change is line width, how parameters are shown in function defs, docstrings, eg
These could differ company by company but again, its not something you should worry about there are tools that handle it for you

[hearty island]

hey what's NIH?

[fluid fern]

not invited here, iirc

[summer roost]

"not invented here" syndrome - a belief that everything that someone else wrote must be crap, and so you'll constantly reinvent wheels rather than reusing things others built

[hearty island]

oh 🥴 never heard of it

[near ocean]

You could start using these tools now btw, to get comfy with them before youre actually asked to use them for work
Tools like formatters, linters, commit hooks, CI/CD, coverage tools, testing, etc

[fluid fern]

i use linters so im familiar with the idea of them (pylint), its just rather odd that a lecture would talk about it and such.

[celest plover]

Thanks. I am also interested in robotics and would like to hear thoughts about it as well

[mortal wedge]

Free advice for companies/management, don't promise your employees bonuses/raises then give them the runaround for months when they're also your core developers for multimillion dollar projects

[hearty island]

@mortal wedge runarounds as in not giving them promised bonuses/raises?

[rapid bison]

Use python to build some arduino projects.

[celest plover]

ok thanks and which python library can I use for it ?

[sleek swan]

hello

[dark lintel]

"How do you prefer to be worked with?"

[sleek swan]

hello

[dark lintel]

"How do you prefer to be worked with?"
Does anyone know what that means?
in a job application

[near ocean]

It means the hiring manager cant be bothered to proofread the application

[dark lintel]

wtf?

[summer roost]

It may be trying to ask whether you are more interested in closely cooperating with other team members in all steps of a project vs taking something and running with it on your own. Maybe

[dark lintel]

Thx

[summer roost]

It's not a well worded question, but I think that's the most sensible interpretation

[dark lintel]

"I like working in interesting and challenging projects that test my competence and capabilities as a professional"

Does that sound right?

[summer roost]

"working on" projects, not "working in" projects. But yeah

[fierce stirrup]

hey

[dark mica]

hey i am an aspiring machine learning engineer in my sophmore year of high school. due to a lack of motivation, i have not been doing so well in terms of my grades this year. before covid, i was a straight-A student. will this affect my success with getting into a top college and, eventually, a top tech company. thank you!

[summer roost]

I don't know whether it will affect you getting into a good college. I suspect you're not alone, and lots of students will have been struggling with motivation in the year of online learning. I can't say how much that will affect your chances of getting into a good school, or how much colleges will take the shitty circumstances into account. At least you have 2.5 years to try to fix it. I can say that no top tech company will care at all about your high school GPA, so it's only getting into a decent college that you need to worry about.

[lucid vapor]

I'm in the same situation, but I'm a freshman. Just try to stay positive as much as you can, and do your best in the next few years. If you can do that, then you'll be fine.

[near ocean]

Yes of course grades affect the kind of university that'll accept you
If you want to get into ivy league, red brick type of unis you not only need really good grades, you also need to show interest in extra curricular activities

For example you definitely cant get into Cambridge with grades alone (i've tried lmao) you need to show participation in events, hackathons, personal portfolios, etc

[peak halo]

godlygeek is right that no one will care about your high school GPA after college. I would contact computer science departments that you'd be interested to attend and ask them what they look for in applicants, and in what ways they've taken covid into account.

[near ocean]

Funnily enough, i've had employers ask me about my A-levels, in the UK and a couple other EU countries

Edit: A levels are the qualifications you use to get into university

[dark mica]

instead of doing school work i have been learning python and statistics 😐

[peak halo]

idk what A levels are. I'm in the US. You can edit your previous message to give more context.

[fossil ruin]

qualifications for 18 year olds, closest comparison is AP i think for US

[peak halo]

AP are high school classes one can enroll in that some universities will accept credit for.

[dark mica]

thank you so much for this 🙏

[dark mica]

thanks 🙏

[near ocean]

I have family in senior positions in a national bank back home, i asked them if they do this when they get to review hires and they said they absolutely will go back to highschool level grades even if you apply with decades of experience

They said it speaks to your character more than your ability, youre studious, consistent, with attention to detail and drive

Personally i wish they didnt, its just silly

[peak halo]

The problem with AP classes is that even if you do well on the AP test, it's not guaranteed that a given university will give you credit for it, or that the credit they do give you will apply towards a course that you need.

[peak halo]

I hate that. That system would favor people who were well off during that phase of their life (and that more or less includes me, with some caveats), and doesn't really give people the opportunity to improve. Or change. Or see a positive change in their life circumstances.

[lucid vapor]

I hate that. It doesn't seem right that you take a difficult class, and schools might not accept it.

[summer roost]

That may depend a lot on country, then. I have never heard of an employer in the US that would care at all about your high school grades or standardized test scores, except for maybe an internship you apply to while still in university.

[fossil ruin]

@near ocean do unis value 4 a-levels more than they do 3 because we've been told that they dont really care as long as you hit the required grades with any required subjects although i doubt thats entirely true

[summer roost]

Re: "who were well off", the US is much less classist than most European countries. We make up for it with plentiful racism, but we tend to be more meritocratic overall.

[thorny ore]

hey guys, so... I'm a beginner in programming, and I'm having trouble to advance in my studies. Can anyone recommend me courses to improve my Python knowledge? (I'm from Brazil, but I can understand English well)

[summer roost]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[near ocean]

That depends on the university youre applying to and the department
Some departments ask for 4 Alevels minimum, others for 3
If they ask for 3 min, they would most probably have to be AAA or A*AA
My offer for my first choice was AAA and I got in with A*ABB, so theres some wiggle room there

[thorny ore]

thanks!

[fossil ruin]

ah ok i was worried because i told my teacher i was doing further maths, maths, physics and cs and his response was "was your lockdown alright? Hows your mental health?"

[near ocean]

You dont get unconditional offers unless you have the results out already or something else that weighs the same as a the a levels

[summer roost]

Regardless, you'd be better off finding ways to reengage with school. Colleges are set up to use your grades and SAT scores to compare you against other candidates. They're not in a position to evaluate things that you've self taught very well, and so those things don't make a big difference to which colleges will accept you. They want a paper trail, so to speak.

[lucid vapor]

You won't get anything unconditional, unless you have something really special.

[near ocean]

In any case, grades are important, even if so just for the first step of getting into a university, dont slip now this pandemic is almost over

[fossil ruin]

yeah thats just a little disadvantage

[summer roost]

@dark mica and I'm assuming you're in the US based on you saying "colleges" instead of "universities". Let me know if I'm wrong.

[gray anvil]

Generally speaking, all good unis have student advocates specialised in each region/system they get applicants from. When placed are assigned, these student advocates will help the uni assign places by comparing the applicants they get to other students from that system/context as a way of "means-testing", to ensure fairness

So 4as vs 3as depends on whether you're from maybe the UK where 3 is the norm or Singapore where 4 is the norm, and also that those gcse As don't compare exactly 1:1

[main thicket]

That's very very debtatable. I don't think of the US as more meritocratic at all. Elite university admissions through athletics, poor public education infrastructure that depends heavily on your location, the lack of social mobility overall that stops a lot of people from going to college etc when in Europe they might be paid to go to college, etc all results in a society that heavily propagates privilege down

[summer roost]

Well, it's off topic either way. I agree that privilege tends to be propagated down, and that it's difficult to escape generational poverty. But, once someone is employed in the US, they tend to be judged more on their merits than on their background and where they were raised. I didn't mean to suggest that it's easy to move from lower class to middle or upper class in the US, but I think it is true that once you do manage to climb out of poverty, you're not perpetually stigmatized on the basis of your background.

or to put that slightly differently: I agree that not everyone has the same opportunities, but those who manage to succeed don't spend the rest of their lives weighed down by the way they talk or by the school their parents sent them to.

[stuck quail]

so I'm fairly young how valuable is python and especially open CV knowledge

[forest oyster]

is it a good idea to add game hacking/botting experience as a kid in my resume?

[summer roost]

I think it depends on exactly what type of hacking/botting. This should go without saying, but don't admit to crimes on your résumé

[forest oyster]

mostly for in game monetary profit

and botting to play the game while im at school etc

[summer roost]

I'd probably avoid it, unless you're applying for a security position, in which case it might be relevant.

[burnt arch]

What’s “4A level” you guys talking about. Someone explain pls

[gray anvil]

GCSE A Levels, the uk high school leaving examination administered by Cambridge. Its also taken in many other commonwealth countries in the same way that one might take SATS or IB overseas

3 or 4 refers to the number of core subjects taken, which can differ slightly. By default its 3, in the UK you can take the 4th electively. In university placement they're only supposed to consider your 3 best subjects

[burnt arch]

Oh ok I get it, like you said it’s like SAT, which I am studying for

[main thicket]

It's more like APs

[gray anvil]

How so? There's no course credit to be gained from taking As and IB, SATs and A levels are available internationally

[main thicket]

There's no college credit because what's covered in college in the US is intro crap that's prerequisites for joining the course in the UK. Content covered wise most A levels and AP content match pretty well.

SATs are extremely basic middle school content that everyone covers and should be able to answer. There is no analogue to SAT in most of the world. For reference, AP is offered internationally too https://professionals.collegeboard.org/testing/international/ap. And if you consider IB similar to AP, US universities give credit for IB HLs too, similar to AP. I imagine some might also give credit for A levels if they recognise them.

[vapid jay]

Hello, I currently attend a community college in the USA and will be transferring for a degree in CS, but wanted to check if it's worth it compared to possible alternatives...

I'm currently top of my class (in community college, so that doesn't mean a ton) for CS courses, so I think I'd be able to make a go of it as a career. The thing is, the only local university that's ranked (University of Minnesota Twin Cities) would only accept me for a CS BA, not a CS BS. Seems like this CS BA is better than a CS BS from the unranked school according to advice I've gotten here before.

Now for the current issue, I'd be doing 3 years of schooling there, at about $20k tuition/y and $15k/y dorms, so it'd be (before significant scholarships) around $60 to $70k of debt. I am seriously considering going into a trade, specifically becoming an apprentice electrician at this point and possibly jumping into CS later on without a degree.

Any thoughts?

$90k in non-dischargeable student loans just seems like some seriously life crushing debt if I find out I do not enjoy CS or for some reason the industry turns sour, or I end up sucking at it

[main thicket]

No one will care whether there's an S or an A after the B in your CS degree.

20k tuition is a bit high, can you get finaid? In-state tuition for public schools would usually be lower I think?

As for amount of debt that's reasonable, keep in mind salaries for CS graduates, and any money you can earn during your degree (internships, etc?). Make your own decisions based on that.

[vapid jay]

Yeah, hopefully I can get more, I haven't applied to transfer yet so I can't get a real quote till then. Right now that's off the current financial aid I get, scaled up a bit.
I just want to start formulating an alternative plan because I am not comfortable with 90k USD non-dischargeable debt personally

[grand quartz]

They do not value 4 subjects over 3 but if you apply your UCAS with 4 subjects, they might require you to get at least an A in that fourth one so you cant drop it.

[lyric trench]

Guys any idea to export the sms in excel format being sent in odoo python service?
How can i get Delivered, Read Feature for that Service?

[true turtle]

Hello, your question is off-topic for this channel. Check out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[nimble charm]

hi

[rain latch]

Is there a place where I can keep practicing python?

A place or something that will generate problems that are advanced or basic?

[fossil ruin]

Leetcode - used especially for prep for coding interviews
Project Euler - maths based programming challenges that require optimisation as well

Both have a wide range of difficulties. If you search them youll find them as one of the top links

[rain latch]

@fossil ruin Thank you very much, you have a great day

[fossil ruin]

Np you too

[fierce stirrup]

hey i got a project for programming for computer graphics

i will pay

[little reef]

Hi. How beneficial is a coding boot camp?

[mortal wedge]

Not giving them the promised bonuses/raises and just dodging the question when people ask about them

[mortal wedge]

This channel/server isn't the place for recruitment. There are better places for that sort of thing.

[little reef]

I have IT certifications such as Comptia A+

[mortal wedge]

Can you clarify what you mean? Is it a paid course or is it where you get trained and then the company hires you out?

[onyx plover]

What's the best place to look for remote python jobs?

[little reef]

Well the ones I have found thus far are paid courses (expensive might I add). I haven’t found one that trains then hires.

[mortal wedge]

Same place you'd look for any job, to be honest. Typical job boards.
Especially now is a good time, people are still in the mode of working remote due to Covid.

[mortal wedge]

Okay. There are some that train and then hire that you want to be careful of because they lock you into multi-year contracts that are notoriously hard to get out of. How do you do with online learning? There's a bevvy of online resources that are available. Some people prefer the free ones, I really liked Coursera.

[lucid vapor]

The pins of this channel have some websites for Python jobs.

[mortal wedge]

Oh, they do, nice!

[rancid fox]

Can you mention me in the pin message? Thanks.

[lucid vapor]

It's this message: #career-advice message

[rancid fox]

@lucid vapor thanks.

[uneven junco]

is it possible to freelance using python skills ?

[hearty island]

it is indeed possible

[mortal wedge]

Absolutely

[uneven junco]

what needed to be done ? I'm at the very beginning steps

[mortal wedge]

Do you mean what do you have to learn in Python or what you need to be a successful freelancer?

To be a successful freelancer you generally want projects under your belt to point to and you need some way to present your past successes/current capabilities i.e. resume/CV. Any sort of online presence also helps, such as having a linkedin.
PROFESSIONAL* online presence, I suppose I should clarify, lol.

[hearty island]

it helps if you have prior experience w a company bc Fiverr/Upwork really isn't it

[uneven junco]

I want to learn python

[lucid vapor]

These may help you learn.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[uneven junco]

also earning a few bucks while learning isn't a bad deal hehe

[misty idol]

Hey, we don't allow unapproved advertising on this server. Could you delete your message and reach out to @severe widget?

[minor trail]

Yeap sure! Thank you

[signal gorge]

Hey!
do you think that people buy discord bots?

[fossil ruin]

People pay for premium features all the time

[signal gorge]

But for that I need my bot to be recognized how do I do that

[mortal wedge]

I suggest starting out by contributing to community projects and/or showcasing on some public forum

[signal gorge]

ok

[signal gorge]

were can I showcase it?

[onyx cypress]

I wanna become Micheal Reeves how can i accomplish that?

[signal gorge]

just do stupid things and relate them with tech

[sand iron]

1. Move to hawai
2. Start a youtube channel
3. hurt yourself a lot
   (4. spend all your time on stupid, funny projects)

[onyx cypress]

no like the robotics he does the coding he does how do i achieve that?

[hearty island]

oh that's raspberry pi and arduino. I don't really know enough to comment on more than that.

[onyx cypress]

ohh thank you ill do my research

[ashen elk]

his projects are just plain dumb. the programming isn't very complex
You can purchase a cheap arduino starter kit and experiment with that.

none of his robots are very complicated tbh. It's just that the parts required might be pretty expensive

[fossil ruin]

The only one you might consider complex is the surgery robot. The others are just tasers strapped up to a rpi

[main thicket]

The surgery robot was pretty simple, mostly just reusing already existing stuff

[mortal wedge]

@signal gorge I think some people use Reddit to showcase stuff like that. There’s a python subreddit but I’ve heard mixed things about it

[ashen elk]

the surgery robot? which was just a knife attached to a 2D arm?
Please elaborate how that is complex and what part of it is complex at all

[digital fjord]

It is very finicky, as everything that uses mechanics is.

[ashen elk]

can't expect anything more from YTers

[ashen elk]

how does being finicky correspond to mechanics? A script kiddie with a 3D printer could build what he made. There are already a ton of projects that build things far more complicated than reeves.
it's essentially motors moving along 2 axes - nothing spectacular.
If tho, he had built an actual somewhat precise manipulatable robotic arm, then that would be impressive

[main thicket]

It's not that finicky, it uses very basic hobbyist parts and you can find 2000 tutorials on ODrive based 2D CNC.

[digital fjord]

I mean getting the output from the hand tracker to correspond to motion of the knife to correspond to rotation of the engines without breaking apart. It isn't exactly a difficult problem, but you are unlikely to any of the steps right first try.

[vapid jay]

Why when I open a file in py it opens then this instant closes

[hearty island]

Probably the wrong channel for that

[main thicket]

Not sure how that's relevant, people are unlikely to get any non-trivial code right first try. Also you mean motor not engines

[gray anvil]

Michael Reeves is a naturally talented showman, and that's the part you can't really train I guess

[vapid jay]

Is being a software engineer possible with java?

[covert zephyr]

haha of course it is homie needs 30 messages just to get voice verification

[leaden jasper]

@vapid jay Please keep things on topic and relevant to conversation.

[lucid vapor]

Check the channel description.

[opal field]

What is the highest paying job when working with python

[fossil ruin]

depends entirely on location and companies in that location

[summer roost]

And on what else you know. Most professional developers know lots of different languages, and know how to decide when one is the right or wrong tool for a particular job. Most large projects span multiple languages. Software developers can be paid very well, but there's a huge spectrum depending on skill level, domain expertise, level of specialization, etc.

[gray anvil]

No recruitment here mate, check the pins

[leaden jasper]

@prime-dev#474 no recruitment in this server.

[true harness]

left the server?

[gray anvil]

Yeeted 😱

[vapid jay]

so i cant be a firetruck?

[peak halo]

!mute 792492390698188800 "1 day" You were asked to stop trolling and going off topic. If you continue to troll after your mute expires, you will be removed.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until 2021-04-08 04:42 (23 hours and 59 minutes).

[acoustic tinsel]

hey guys howdy

[plush tiger]

hey guyes

[frigid current]

hi

[opal field]

yo

[onyx plover]

I really need a permanent job.

[lucid vapor]

If you're looking for a Python one, there's a list of python job websites in the pins of this channel.

[onyx plover]

Yes. I'm aware of that. But what's the process? I've applied to quite a few but nothing seems to happen

[hearty island]

Yeah, that’s typical. A lot of jobs will reject you but offer no context. You may get an email in the following weeks saying they rejected you.

[leaden jasper]

So there could be a few things:
a) The market is fairly competitive right now depending on your experience level
b) What does your resume look like and is it getting you past the automated filters?
c) Are these jobs on a job board or are you applying through recommendations in your network?

[onyx plover]

I'm quite experienced. But I don't have many publicly displayable projects.
I'm starting to doubt my resume building skills. I tried using some templates and resume builders but haven't seen much change.
I apply through job boards. I only look for fully remote jobs, which might also be one of the reason.

I do have a top rated profile on upwork though. But these small freelancing jobs don't seem to be getting me anywhere.

[leaden jasper]

So the remote jobs are deeefinitely competitive, so it may just take more applications to get through. If you redact PII on your resume you could post it here for feedback, although you might find more knowledgeable people elsewhere. What type of job are you applying for, like is it web dev focused, backend, devops, something else?

[plush galleon]

What do you mean by "quite experienced"?

[onyx plover]

If you mean my experience in years. I've about 4 years of professional experience in python, mostly startups and a lot of freelance jobs. And a couple more years of experience in other languages before I started python.

[plush galleon]

What is "PII"?

[lucid vapor]

Personally Identifiable Information

[plush galleon]

Why are you looking for remote jobs?

[onyx plover]

I live in a remote place 🙂

What would be an example of a well written resume?

[leaden jasper]

So it depends and I'm probably not the best person to answer. ( @summer roost maybe you are?) but it's really about getting the relevant and value-providing projects and skills up top, talking about said projects and skills in a smart way. Cutting down on the fluff, and making sure you're customizing it to have enough keywords to bypass the automatic filters.

[vapid jay]

Hi everyone I am new to this server

[hearty island]

welcome

[severe timber]

Guten Tag

[vapid jay]

Thanks😁

[hearty island]

How do you answer “What is your greatest weakness”?

[onyx plover]

“My greatest weakness is that I sometimes have a hard time letting go of a project. I'm the biggest critic of my own work. I can always find something that needs to be improved or changed. To help myself improve in this area, I give myself deadlines for revisions"

My greatest weakness is that I sometimes have trouble saying ‘no’ to requests and end up taking on more than I can handle

[plush galleon]

I think that you should avoid that

[hearty island]

ok

[weak silo]

I am thinking to join the programming field when i grow up... so what are basic things i need to master to be a programmer

[hearty island]

!resources the basics of programming would be a good start.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[languid flicker]

.

[hearty island]

ok

[lucid vapor]

Hey. This server doesn't allow recruitment. See rule 6.

[vapid jay]

@vapid jay Hey, please don't dump memes. Especially in an on-topic channel.

!mute 803040267568676874 Please listen to staff instructions.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until 2021-04-07 17:39 (59 minutes and 59 seconds).

[primal sandal]

Bcs it executes the code in that little amount of time

[storm frigate]

i am 14 i wanna start codding any advice

[digital fjord]

!resources we have a list of tutorials on our site.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[surreal spade]

hey guys i have a question #career-advice message

I was wondering what peoples takes on coding boot camps vs 4 year degree, like is it worth it to do the full 4 year? Is the income drastically different for the people who chose to get a degree? Im graduating this year and I dont know what im planning on doing yet looking for some guidance, thanks!

[near ocean]

Graduating from university?

[surreal spade]

no from high school, probably should have clarified haha

[near ocean]

You should also mention which part of the world youre in, advice varies from region to region

A degree is a pretty standard thing, bootcamps are a scam in comparison
Ofc this changes if you live somewhere where you cant afford to pay for the degree

[summer roost]

If you search this channel's history for "bootcamp", you'll find a long conversation about this from the other day.

[surreal spade]

Im from the US, personally I would rather cut out all the bullshit and just go to the bootcamp to focus on the stuff that i actually want to learn but on the flip side most people with degrees are higher up on the ladder. and thx godly ill check it out

[summer roost]

TLDR: it's much easier to get a job with a degree. The college you go to doesn't make a big difference, a CS degree from a community college is much cheaper and approximately as useful as one from a big name university. The best thing you can possibly do in college is internships - students who get internships are light years ahead once they graduate.

[fossil ruin]

Bootcamps are good if you already have a degree in something e.g. a maths degree + coding bootcamp is just as good as having just a cs degree for some employers. A degree is always preferred and is less about what they teach but about connections and networking. If you can go for a cs degree great and its the safer and better option. Bootcamps are there and most effective if its a career switch thing post degree.

[pulsar drum]

Unfortunately I couldn't do internships cause my graduation would get delayed by an entire year 😔

[surreal spade]

is that degree a bachelors or a associates?

[summer roost]

I meant bachelor's. I'm not certain how highly associate's degrees are valued - probably more than bootcamp, less than bachelor's.

[surreal spade]

read the channel description 👍 dont get banned lol

[marsh wind]

Idk about US or even EU for that matter, in my home country uni we got 0 connections, 0 network 😂 so degree was more about hard skills and soft skills in terms of adaptability, or soft skills +being able so learn thing more or less systematically and quickly

[true harness]

what country is that?

[keen sage]

Is CS major hard?
I wanna major in it but I know some people they tell me that its the toughest of all majors.

[summer roost]

How many degrees did the people who told you that have?

[keen sage]

Umm I dont know close to unemployed

I love Computer Science but I get demotivated easily lol

[fossil ruin]

youve got a scholarship in UCLA they will have top quality courses and i assume they also have intern programs. If you arent going to take CS as a major what would you take? Do you enjoy that backup? Can you see it helping you as much as a CS major would? You shouldnt worry how difficult itll be all majors are hard in some way. Do it if you think it will be beneficial to you

[summer roost]

Someone with only one degree can only tell you how hard that degree was for them to get. Someone with two degrees can tell you which of the two they found harder. If someone who only has one degree tells you "the degree I got was the hardest degree anyone could ever get", you should probably just ignore them.

[keen sage]

Thank you for the help guys. I am gonna go for it.

[summer roost]

Picking a major is also not the biggest deal in the world. Lots of people change majors after 2 or 3 semesters, if they discover they don't like what they thought they would

[keen sage]

Yeah I love CS but you know people all around make me think that I am doing a mistake . Specially on social media people just scare me. And then I think I am not capable of doing it.
But Now I am gonna do what I love.

[fossil ruin]

dont listen to social media its full of pretence and people that are "experts". Most of it is BS. Trust your own research and people you know and can trust

[marsh wind]

Thought I mentioned. Ukraine

[near ocean]

I studied in the UK and it also felt like 0 connections/networking, you had to basically do it yourself
By yourself i mean there were no major uni events

[keen sage]

UK is really expensive for studies

[marsh wind]

That sounds like thing commonly know and widespread - imposter syndrome. Hard not to get it in nowadays world. So just embrace it and know your strength

[near ocean]

UK is not that expensive in comparison, its £9250 a year for most degrees

[keen sage]

Yeah imposter syndrome lol

[timber tide]

Just had an interview today!

[hearty island]

@summer roost this should be pinned

[gilded valley]

could you still be an effective full stack developer with python?

[summer roost]

With only Python? No. You need JavaScript for the frontend stuff.

[gray anvil]

Lad for UK passport holders it used to be 3k 😭, and for foreign students, its anywhere between 13-22k a year depending on course

I remember the protests
Pepehands

[onyx cloak]

Hi, Does "Automate the Boring Stuff with Python Programming" recommended for beginners?

[gray anvil]

Wrong channel, but while you're here, if you want to go deep into python pick up a more fundamentals focused book like learn python the hard way for python 3 first

[onyx cloak]

I see, I apologize for this. And thank you for the advice!

[high hound]

you trying to say v3?

[vapid jay]

i work in it services company

GE is our biggest client unit and there are many projects under,
but am stuck as a Servicenow developer ( I started 3 months ago, I don't like my work, am not good at it and try to avoid it). I want to work in Python based project, i only know Python no other language.

There are projects based on data science and python but i haven't got chance to work in those, what should i do?

should I ask for release from my current project? will that get me fired or should i continue with what i have got?

[verbal slate]

Hey could someone possibly help me out with some django freelancing questions I have

[gray anvil]

I meant learn python 3 the hard way, just checked. The original is on 2.7 iirc

[vapid jay]

i am afraid of my boss

[grizzled tundra]

I tried so hard and got so far, but in the end, they wanted a database developer.

Funny how they started from how the web works to http to python to flask and then docker and then when I answered the two interviews successfully, they said they wanted a database developer/web developer kinda candidate

And if I was okay with deep database questions. Just start with the questions for the role you want the guy for.

[fossil ruin]

Yeah that seems like its just a waste of time for everyone involved

[gray anvil]

It seems like they don't have a good idea of what they want

Which is way too common

[grizzled tundra]

And the job description had just one line about databases and the role clearly stated Python Developer

[grizzled tundra]

Yeah true

[thorny coral]

So I have watched a lot of beginner courses and a good amount of crash courses. My goal is to be a professional, as in know all of the built ins and how to use them, and most importantly have good problem solving skills. Where can I start learning that?

[untold lantern]

.

[onyx plover]

hackerrank, codility, projecteuler?

Or do you mean real life problems? For that you need to work on real projects

[gloomy lark]

if you want to major in CS and you get accepted in UC Berkeley and UCLA, which one would you choose?

[fluid coral]

do you need a degree to get a high paid job in this field?

[gloomy lark]

unless you want to go sysadmin yes

[compact gazelle]

anyone know how to manage proxies on selenium?

[hearty island]

this isn't the right channel for that question... try #web-development

[plush galleon]

A degree would be better if you want a promotion

[fluid coral]

whats your intake on freecodecamp for beginners trying to learn at home?

[plush galleon]

Some jobs require a master's or MBA

[compact gazelle]

txx you

[plush galleon]

I've never heard anything bad about freecodecamp and a lot of people use it

[fluid coral]

is there any you recommend?

[modest wyvern]

_ _

[fluid coral]

i got time off rm due to lack of work and i dont want to let this time go to waste so i figured id learn code.

[plush galleon]

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-osiE80TeTskrapNbzXhwoFUiLCjGgY7
Not on freecodecamp but definitely recommended

[fluid coral]

a friend also recommended a youtuber named Jabrils? what yall think?

[plush galleon]

You can earn a lot on YouTube without spending anything and if you want to buy books you should try Humble Bundle

I don't know this video maker

[fluid coral]

i am going to check that channel out tho! i appreciate it

[mortal wedge]

Don't need, but it helps tremendously. I've heard of people getting jobs without one, but by the time resumes get to me all the ones without a degree have been weeded out by HR

[plush galleon]

The fact that a lot of bootcamps stopped claiming that you would get hired within 6 months makes me believe that a bootcamp can only be useful if you already have a degree

[mortal wedge]

Unfortunately, companies just get a lot of applicants and lack of any degree at all is just a really useful way to weed people out. If you want to get hired without a degree, I'd recommend a couple things:

1. Have a robust portfolio under your belt, projects you've worked on, etc.
2. Network and get contacts so that you can get someone to vouch for you and/or put your resume on a hiring manager's desk.

Without those things I have a hard time imagining someone without a degree getting a good job as anything other than a fluke.

This is coming from my experience both applying for jobs and vetting hires in the US

[mortal wedge]

As someone with a hand in the hiring process, I wouldn't care which one you chose. As a student I've heard good things about both. As a person, I'd recommend visiting the campus and seeing which area/school you prefer for other reasons.

[mortal wedge]

As someone who has a hand in the hiring process, we often have discussions with eachother behind the scenes as the hiring process is ongoing. Those discussions, coupled with changing business objectives, can guide the hiring discussions. For example, let's say that someone chimes in with a concern that their last X was hard to work with because of lack of knowledge in Y, then your next interview you may get questions in Y.

[mortal wedge]

I think it's possible to ask for a transfer to a different project. In my experience, companies don't generally pluck someone completely from one project and put them totally into another project unless there's a pressing business need. What I've seen both in bringing someone to the team and when in the situation myself is that I start to take on more responsibilities of Y and then once I've shown my value in Y the people in charge of managing Y help me transition from doing X to doing Y fulltime.

If someone has no ongoing projects, you're going to be one of the first to be laid off come downsizing time.

[summer roost]

This, or alternatively, it may mean that you didn't meet their qualifications for the role you originally applied for, but that, based on their evaluation of your skills over the course of the interview process, they decided you did have the skills for a different opening, and switched to interviewing you for that instead of rejecting you outright

[mortal wedge]

Yeah. For my current company, I was initially interviewed for a different role. But they were impressed with my skillset, decided they needed me on the team, and created a role just for me.

[summer roost]

Interviewing people is time consuming and expensive. Once they've gone through the trouble of interviewing you, they'd rather offer you a different position than reject you entirely, so that effort isn't wasted.

[mortal wedge]

Agreed. Especially because the people who are hiring generally have other responsibilities they want to get back to, once you get passed the recruiter/HR phase.

[summer roost]

Yeah. Interviewing is often one of the parts of their job they like the least, heh

[lofty lily]

Are there any quantitative developers here?

[kindred viper]

hey guys, i currently work for a small company as a bit of a glorified sysadmin. it's a bit of a one man team for a lot of my duties, managing cloud servers in a private datacenter, user management, and internal support. i've been picking up bits of python through the years to help automate a lot of my tasks, but outside of a decent knowledge of python in general, i don't have any formal experience as a python dev.

i'd like to get more into the developer side of things, but don't have anyone to really pick things up from as a mentor. i have a heavy ops background, so maybe a devops type role would be fitting, but i don't believe my dev skills are where they need to be. i suppose i could take a large paycut and maybe find a junior dev position, but i'm not sure i'd be willing to take a large pay cut. and even then, with no formal dev experience, not sure i'd even qualify for a lot of 'junior' positions.

any advice on how i can get some more formal experience, or what type of positions i should be looking at?

[sweet solstice]

So you know how to code but you have no experiance

[kindred viper]

i'd say i know how to do what i need to get done with some help from stack overflow, but i have no formal experience or knowledge of best practices and such

[mortal wedge]

I wish someone could chime in with positive response, but in my experience changing fields is really hard. You can try basically doing stuff on top of your existing workload or look for a junior dev job and take the pay cut.

[ashen elk]

Would publishing a paper at some non-peer-reviewed place like ArXiv as a high schooler give me some leverage for Unis?
And is it even a good idea to do so?

[true harness]

it is moderated, so it's not like the wild west. i wouldn't know anything about the benefits it would give, if any

[little trellis]

If your grades are already good then I'd give it a shot to help stand out then write about it in your university essay if you have to write one and it gets any traction. I'd only do it if I thought I would learn something from the process and enjoy it.

[main thicket]

Your paper almost certainly won't get approved

Not to be a downer but there's probably thousands of data science cranks even with university education that try to upload stuff on arXiv whose work probably doesn't get approved because I haven't seen any of that sort of stuff.

[main thicket]

A devops role at a medium-sized place that's a bit lax followed by an internal transfer is probably the easiest path to something that isn't entry level. Mind you, depending on how much you get paid and where you get a job, there might not be much of a pay cut if any as an entry level dev.

[kindred viper]

thanks, yeah i'm actually in the middle of the interview process for a cloud engineer role which is a junior devops sorta role, feeling like this may be my best path, although i'm not sure if i have enough dev experience

[mortal wedge]

Nice! Best of luck to you. Just sell yourself the best you can and let them make the decision as to whether or not you have the experience.

[kindred viper]

thanks, appreciate it 🙂 - and not to beat a dead horse, but any advice on what to work on learning / bolstering to break into the dev field? i have a decent grasp on the basics and have some decent understanding of consuming APIs. my biggest project to date so far is building out a dash app consuming the TD Ameritrade API to log my investment balance history and graph it. storing my balance history into an influxdb and graphing it with plotly, as well as displaying all my current investment positions. it's mostly spaghetti code, so i understand i need to learn how to better structure my applications

[mortal wedge]

That's a good project and being able to speak to it is also important. If you have a decent grasp of the basics, you could start learning more advanced stuff relating to fields you want to pursue. For example, you could try to find out which libraries are in demand for cloud engineering and gain familiarity with those.

For example, at our company we've had people who are not data scientists be in charge of data visualizations and it's caused enough headaches that our next hire HAS to be able to demonstrate a deep knowledge of matplotlib. So if you were interested in data science, I'd say learn matplotlib. The same goes for other fields, like learning numpy/scipy if you're interested in scientific computing, etc.

[stray jacinth]

Is the 98-381: Introduction to Programming
using Python Microsoft certification good to have if I have no others to show my Python proficiency?
I think I can take it for free through the my local library, just wondering if it might make a difference to recruiters for data engineering roles that include Python in the tech stack.

[kindred viper]

gotcha, thanks for the advice. i'm coming from an infrastructure/ops background, so i think i'd be more interested in the automation side of things, maybe automating with ansible and python, but i don't know how much of a market there is for that kind of work

[fossil ruin]

From what i know most of the time they dont care about certificates. The main thing they care about are degrees and projects/prev work

[main thicket]

People don't generally care about certifications. It probably doesn't hurt if it's free but you're better off showing experience through projects

[stray jacinth]

@fossil ruin @main thicket Okay, thank you both.

[gray anvil]

Doing cloud certs has gotten me a lot of attention on LinkedIn for some reason

[little trellis]

If you're going to do a cert for data engineering I'd do the GCP Professional Data Engineer cert or the Azure one.

[earnest zodiac]

Anyone have any advice on portfolio projects? I'm struggling to figure out what kinds of things would look good on an entry level portfolio/resume. I've been coding for fun for a few years, but I feel like I lack any real qualifications on paper and I haven't really specialized in any one field too deeply.

[lucid vapor]

What do you do in Python? And what kind of things do you already have?

[fossil ruin]

I hear making a debugger is a very impressive project. Especially since you can then use it on your other projects. Companies like projects that they would use on a day to day.

[earnest zodiac]

I have done some data visualization stuff, matplotlib, seaborn, etc. Done some little personal websites. Dabbled in keras and tensorflow.

I'll have to do a little digging on debuggers, I've never even considered tackling that.

[lucid vapor]

Have you done project mostly in those fields, or more just general.

[earnest zodiac]

Honestly I suffer from a severe lack of direction, and I just have kinda picked up projects wherever my interest took me. So its a jack of all trades master of none sorta deal.

[lucid vapor]

Then do some project based on the topics you want to get into. If the people who you want to hire you see that you can do what you do well, then that's a very good thing.

[fervent lance]

Hello peeps. I just got my CCNA, which I know is unrelated, but wanted to mention it for context. I'm in the process of applying for work. But in the past I enjoyed python programming and wanted to invest time into being a developer. I've looked up advice on how to get to the junior developer part. My issue is wondering what career path relating to python to pick going further and how to individually get to that path? For example, Machine Learning, Cloud, or White Hat hacking. So essentially, what path options I could take, and how to actually study to get to that point. Sorry for the bothersome question.

[gray anvil]

Sounds like he's starting relatively fresh though, maybe the foundation or associate certs first?

OP if you have time try studying for one of the associate certs, you can disregard the suggestion of 1-3 years practical xp if you self practise and study for a bit

[little trellis]

If it were me and I was paying out of pocket I would just go straight to the pro cert and study more. I wouldn't want to pay for both and take the extra time. Most companies will cover the costs though so that's worth looking into. I went straight to the Pro cert and got there after about 6 months on the job and studying.

[gray anvil]

I agree, but if he's seeking recruitment, 6 months spent studying is also 6 months with nothing to show; I would look into Azure who are giving out the foundation cert exams free in exchange for attending training seminars, OR using the $15USD 1 time use covid voucher available on azure's cert page

You can do the pro cert on the company's time and money later, as you said

[mortal wedge]

Hello peeps. I just got my CCNA, which I know is unrelated, but wanted to mention it for context. I'm in the process of applying for work. But in the past I enjoyed python programming and wanted to invest time into being a developer. I've looked up advice on how to get to the junior developer part. My issue is wondering what career path relating to python to pick going further and how to individually get to that path? For example, Machine Learning, Cloud, or White Hat hacking. So essentially, what path options I could take, and how to actually study to get to that point. Sorry for the bothersome question.
@fervent lance It’s highly dependent on the field/path. There’s so much that can be done with Python that there are many industries that could use a skilled developer. It would be easier to suggest which paths you couldn’t take, honestly

[gray anvil]

I did the azure foundation cert with the intent to do the associate DP-203 cert later while job searching, and before my associate cert test date rolled around I'd already gotten two offers

edit to avoid spam: me neither on the GCP associate cert

[little trellis]

Yeah i just figured that since he is currently employed in a somewhat relevant role he could swing it. Your recommendations sound good. I have no insight into the value of the associate google cert.

[fervent lance]

@mortal wedge Maybe I should ask what's the most expected, and what's the most rare to see.

Or rather, what's the most usual, I have an interest in cybersecurity, but other than cisco, I don't have a direct path there coding wise

[little trellis]

Currently looking into getting the Azure Data Engineer Associate cert as it's a goal for the current data engineering team I'm on to all get them. How did you find the Azure cert process?

[gray anvil]

When doing the online proctor test, I had a very poor experience with PSI (but funnily enough made a couple of linkedin contacts from talking to people also complaining about them), so I personally would advise using Pearson

Aside from that, studying wise I played around with Azure, did a linkedin learning path, and found some practise questions to do. The practise questions helped the most because personally I find sometimes they can ask the questions in a somewhat obtuse manner

I'm doing it next week, I kept pushing it back because my new place uses AWS so I had to get up to speed, but it was nice that a lot of the concepts from the foundation exams carried over

[mortal wedge]

Back end and full stack developers rely heavily on Python, a lot of devs who make apps/tools for use in house use Python, Machine learning is huge wrt Python. One of my co-workers came from cybersecurity with the FBI. More rare to see let's say data science or game development. Data science is becoming less rare, but for game dev it's very rare to have a game fully written in Python due to reasons.

[little trellis]

Good to know. Glad their testing is online rather than in person even if a bit wonky haha

[fervent lance]

@mortal wedge So if I was a career focused python dev, I would try to go full into cyber-security, or Machine Learning? My fear is by the time I get to that career point (Machine Learning), the need will decrease, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Think I could ask you more about the FBI guy?

[mortal wedge]

Sure, but he's a bit of a jack of all trades. His current role has nothing to do with cybersec, haha.

I don't think the need for machine learning will ever decrease. I mean theoretically it could but companies try to make data driven decisions and Machine Learning caters to that.

[fervent lance]

Do you know why the cybersec guy left his last employment (I assume it was cybersecurity)?

@mortal wedge Maybe that's a useless question. I want to know what study path he took to get to a cybersecurity position. But I doubt he ever mentioned it.

[mortal wedge]

Sorry, never mentioned it

[fervent lance]

Ah man, This is going to suck in the future. I'm going to go for a cybersecurity focus when I get to my junior stage. But the only thing I can think of that would be appropriate would be cybersecurity courses on Udemy.

[little trellis]

Look into learning Unix/Linux and cloud computing maybe? A lot of that should be relevant

[fervent lance]

@little trellis Just sounds all over the place, wish I could get a literal catalog. But I know that's not exactly how that works. I can check out if the udemy courses I saw have cloud computing in it. I know I saw linux.

[weak silo]

What requirements do i need to become a python programmer.like what subjects do i need to and how much to score. I want to start planning now

[fervent lance]

@weak silo I'm not a professional at all, but this article seemed very practical in how to approach learning python. https://blog.finxter.com/how-to-learn-python-to-get-a-job/

[weak silo]

hm

[mortal wedge]

Actually now that I think about it... I don't know how relevant it is but he is a whiz with containers, docker, linux/unix. He also studied Machine Learning, hah

[fervent lance]

@mortal wedge I'm seeing udemy courses from "nathan house" but while there's mention of linux learning in the contents, nothing much on cloud and machine learning. I may be out of direct luck. May end up buying this guy's courses in the future for cybersecurity context, but not for the stuff the FBI guy may have touched.

@weak silo BTW, hows that article going?

[ashen crystal]

what's an example question you might ask in order to establish whether someone has what you'd consider deep knowledge?

[ashen elk]

I was thinking the same thing - but when I saw that some 17 year old kid had published a paper in ArXiv about a supervised task of converting manga sketches to their colored form (with color hints) I thought maybe I could do too.

So I need to have some professor/supervisor if I actually want to publish that paper somewhere good?

[ashen elk]

And is it even possible for me to even approach some professor for possible help?

[gray anvil]

If it were me I'd be asking questions that indicate extensive practise. Could be practical, like how do you plot multiple charts to the same axis and set relative scales, off the top of your head

[ashen crystal]

right - i've used a fair bit of mpl and could probably answer very little off the top of my head though, nearly always have to reference docs and stuff for this - obviously we're going to be using some grid plot layout (would google the syntax) and then I'd google for the axis scales as well, it's just I'd be able to parse/find what came up on google in a reasonable amount of time. I guess if it's "deep knowledge" specifically then it's probably fair though 🤔

[twin ferry]

Can I ask how do I start off leaning Python programming? Any tips please 🙂

[near ocean]

!resources and much practice

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[hearty island]

@plush galleon if you want to add a book try asking in #community-meta

[torpid vessel]

Hi! I'm a massive failure, I'm an 'UpWork' developer with $10k made. How do I earn my first 'real' money and make $10k or more, more? Thanks! 🍯
P.s. I've no 'real' job experience... ... ...

[mortal wedge]

I'd ask them to explain concepts like what an artist is, when I use function X what other functions are being called without being displayed, would you consider mpl to be stateless or stateful and back it up with an explanation. Basically anything I ran into in mpl that bit me in the ass later or pissed me off 😄

[mortal wedge]

You can definitely find good work on upwork. Our latest hire we found through there.

[plush galleon]

$10k over the last month doesn't seem like a failure to me

[mortal wedge]

Never hurts to ask! What's the worst they can do, turn you down?

[torpid vessel]

@mortal wedge you don't get it, I have 75% JSS, I'm ruined 😄

[lucid vapor]

They said they want to. Not that they get 10k already.

[plush galleon]

They said they've made $10k but not how much time it took

[lucid vapor]

Oh, my bad.

[mortal wedge]

Making money, sadly, isn't purely based off of your skills/experience. If you're freelancing, you need to be actively looking for gigs and making sure you paint yourself in the best light possible as well. I freelanced for a while and decided it wasn't for me.

[torpid vessel]

@lucid vapor @plush galleon I have $10k on UpWork earned and it didn't take much time either, but I'm a rather irresponsible dev and my job-success-score (upwork's metric at rating people) is low. I dunno what to do next. I'm basically sitting in my flat surrounded by 30 cans of empty beer I feel ... bad ... and failed... if that makes sense

[onyx plover]

Any suggestions?

[onyx plover]

I've over 80K over the past 3 years. But the amount of jobs have started to decrease because of the pandemic and also the number of applicants have increased a lot and it has gotten harder to get a good job. And I'm really in search of an alternative.

[torpid vessel]

@onyx plover thanks, ElvisJames, appreciate the input

[near ocean]

That has too much empty space imho, but im not a hiring manager or a professional of any kind

[hearty island]

I don't know if having skills in a different section is ATS friendly or not

[ashen elk]

so randomly emailing professors wouldn't be too bad? I think they won't even read my mail, less than reply

[torpid vessel]

imo better try to than don't, worst you get is some cardio training or just sample of results, in more scientific terms

[ashen elk]

hmmm...k, will try to find some

[torpid vessel]

yeah I think it's better than not to, worse case you get no or negative replies and if that's the case, that's the sample of results you obtained, good luck

[ashen elk]

yeah. but still...

[torpid vessel]

I know, it sucks to actually do it here and now, today

[little trellis]

Any local places you could send to? Might be more apt to answer

[ashen elk]

wdym?

[little trellis]

I’m thinking that a professor at a university closer to where you are located might be more likely to answer. Especially if you mentioned that that was a university you were planning on applying to and would like to go there.

[little trellis]

You may also find better luck with grad students who could then potentially refer you if you could prove yourself.

[marsh wind]

if they are not in US/UK it can matter less. What I saw, EU is not so ATS obsessed. But it is definitely not balanced in terms of white space @onyx plover

also usually you put Experience above project, but if the dates are real (2017 internship) and since then you had no pro experience and only proejcts I think it is OK. But overall usually experience goes on the top part

[ashen elk]

hmm...that is something I could possibly do

[onyx plover]

I haven't worked for a company officially but just freelance contracts. But I've done a lot of projects that certainly won't fit into a single page resume

[marsh wind]

freelance contracrs are still experience. especially if those were not one-off few weeks gigs but something running for several months

if you freelanced successfully for some time that should 100% appear on your resume. For specific projects showcase, if you have a lot you should trim them down tailoring to the projects that would be the most relevant to each job you are applying to

[mortal wedge]

what's an example question you might ask in order to establish whether someone has what you'd consider deep knowledge?
@ashen crystal Well, it depends on the field/topic. I’m a digital signal processing/algorithms guy, so I’d> so randomly emailing professors wouldn't be too bad? I think they won't even read my mail, less than reply
@ashen elk yup! You’d be surprised at how often someone might be willing to help, especially if they were local. It’s not taboo at all.

Oh sorry discord on phone spazzed out

[mortal wedge]

I feel you, regarding the pandemic and the job market becoming more difficult. That's actually what got me out of freelancing, I didn't want to risk that in a more...risky market.

What I did was do a really good job doing contract work for a specific company then made the hard sell for why they wanted to hire me on full time and they agreed.

[plush galleon]

Did you stop freelancing without having a full-time contract?

[mortal wedge]

No, still gotta eat

[turbid crystal]

hey guys, i am in class 12 (indian student) and have opted for biology in my +2. i want to make it as a software developer or as a designer(ui/ux that stuff), would it be a better choice to study BCA (bachelors of computer applications) or btech.Bioinformatics as both can teach me knowledge on software development

[ashen elk]

bioinfo doesn't teach you software development in India. for software development, IIT does allow you to jump from bio to some maths and do the usual vanilla Btech (on the expectation of extra effort from your side)

[hearty island]

english please

[peak halo]

@snow thunder this server uses English, so please speak it to the best of your ability.

[graceful frigate]

can someone dumb down how to do api stuff with google admin sdk

[covert fractal]

where are the python snakes i thought this was a nature server0

[hearty island]

😐

[grizzled tundra]

[frosty forge]

any good site to see how much developer makes in EU European countries?

[vapid jay]

In what areas can I apply python for freelancing

[fossil ruin]

levels.fyi

Just change location to your country

[snow thunder]

ok

[distant wolf]

Hi everyone

[vapid jay]

^ yes this

[fossil ruin]

And what does that have to do with this channel

[vapid jay]

oh

[scarlet frost]

To become a backend web developer with python what should i learn????

[idle thistle]

SQL

[peak halo]

Sql and whichever framework is most appropriate for the types of web development you want to do. Flask, django, and fastapi have different ideal use cases. Note that sql is a different language and not a library/framework. There are python libraries for interfacing with sql.

[mortal wedge]

data science, algorithm development, api stuff, full stack, backend, frontend, honestly really anything

[mortal wedge]

In addition to what Stelercus responded with, learn about api endpoints and API in general

[abstract night]

What is the best way to respond to a question like this?

I figure I check the company with glassdoor, but they don't have any internship positions so I don't know how much they pay their interns, only how much they pay their actual devs. Should I multiply by 0.6, or something like that?

[mortal wedge]

You can say “negotiable” if you like or see what the average salary for that position at a similar company is in that region

[near ocean]

Bro you cant advertise here

[hearty island]

🥴

[misty idol]

!mute 618854904987123715 2d We do not allow unapproved advertising on this server. Please refresh yourself on our #rules, namely rule 6.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @grizzled wedge until 2021-04-12 20:59 (1 day and 23 hours).

[onyx plover]

Can I show my freelancer profiles on my resume?

[alpine ridge]

Yes, that is experience you have had and the more detailed you are about your projects the better people will be able to understand your skillset. I'm making the assumption profiles meant projects. @onyx plover

[scarlet frost]

And for full stack web developer what should i learn along with python??

[true harness]

js, it's probably the one language you definitely need for web dev

[near ocean]

html5/css3, maybe a css preprocessor, flexbox, grid and the likes, media queries, responsive design, etc

[ocean ledge]

learn dart

[noble loom]

PHP

[viscid marten]

I know this probably the most basic question I can ask, but what are some projects you would recommend to throw on a git hub to help get a job? I want visualize data with pandas. That being said I've been working with the us census bureau API to make an app, but it is just taking so much time. Didn't know if anyone had any recommendations for a small under 1k line of code project I could make. ❤️ Sorry for asking probably the same question you guys get asked every day.

[fossil ruin]

!projects and i know debuggers tend to go down well. Make stuff that you think companies use in their day to day. It shows understanding and that you have the skillset to work in their team.

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[viscid marten]

I appreciate that. I'm actually looking through all this now. Looks really nice. 🙂

[wild cloud]

i need help on the code

[lucid vapor]

If you need help, you can ask in #python-discussion or see #❓｜how-to-get-help. This channel is for discussion about Python jobs.

[gray anvil]

do kaggle challenges?

[mortal wedge]

Yes, but be prepared to speak intelligently to anything you put on your resume

[viscid marten]

Do you think interviewers want to see my code wars profile?

[summer roost]

No.

[gray anvil]

something for your "other" section at best if you're a very fresh grad or an undergrad seeking an internship
but probably they aren't gonna click on it anyway

[gilded valley]

im not sure if i should learn python or js, im interested in making apps and websites, but ai and machine learning same as backend development also are very interesting to me, if i would want a job in programming in the future, which should i learn? or do i learn both?

[loud maple]

You'll need both anyway, but learning them at the same time could be super-confusing. All websites will need some level or JS, but you don't need to know it really well to get by, whereas writing backend applications in Python is really quite involved. Also, learning JS often leads to learning the API of a particular UI framework, but basic knowledge of JS is critical. Hope that helps

[bronze sinew]

It didn't used to have slowmode

[rigid flame]

[night pasture]

is it a good idea to put your individual (or best 3) coding projects on your resume?

for example "i successfully wrote 400 lines of code to solve xyz problem"

[main thicket]

dont describe a project by number of lines of code. Yes, it's fine to have a project section. Describe what you did, using what technology for what purpose, and what the impact was

[craggy wave]

Yes, it's something I look for on someone's resume. Just make it easy for me to actually have a look at your portfolio as well: If someone has a good portfolio in a version control system (.e.g, git) that I can see somewhere (e.g., GitHub/GitLab/BitBucket), I'm likely to look at it before the technical interview. It doesn't have to be perfect either, if we're looking for a junior developer, I don't mind seeing a portfolio that shows progress. In fact, it's great to see someone who's developing themselves and learning things along the way. If you want to impress, spend some time reading about good git/commit practices and try applying them in your version history. Again, it doesn't have to be perfect, but it shows me that you're willing to learn and that you're already thinking about the kind of skills you'll need when you come work for us.

And, follow Raggy's guidelines for how to structure that section. What did you do? What did you get out of it? Which tools did you use?

[night pasture]

thanks!

[amber iron]

hello, I have a question about Class in pyqt5
when I pass data from setting form to Main Form, it show like that,
I think it create new form and no data in main form
so how can I fix this problem , thanks you !

[proper breach]

Hi guys am interested in perusing data science as my career which degree should I choose after 12 th class (Indian) and what are the best universities or colleges which provide that degree worldwide

[vapid jay]

ot!help

[night pasture]

computer science/data analytics i guess

[proper breach]

thanks i'll research on them

[tame crystal]

University of westminster(UK) is pretty great for data science and analytics. Check their official site for more details.

well it solely depends on your own learning in the end of the day. I believe no univs can teach you the skill that's actually required for practical world requirements

so yeah, choose whatever you want, but make sure you enjoy learning it and making money (getting a job) will be a by product outcome.

[proper breach]

what if i want to become a penetration tester

[night pasture]

im not too keen on going to uni because i believe real-world knowledge/application is more important than a piece of paper that tells people you're smart and can do xyz

[tame crystal]

well that's a whole different domain

[proper breach]

thanks for the advice

[stray harbor]

I wish to learn python but this discord is confusing pls ping me correct channel

[night pasture]

theres a great youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfscVS0vtbw&ab_channel=freeCodeCamp.org to learn python, and you can always ask in the general chat for help!

[tame crystal]

check #❓｜how-to-get-help for more details about python and other stuff.

[main thicket]

Guess the easiest way of obtaining real world knowledge (hint, it's uni)

[tame crystal]

debatable, but yet, perspectives. Cant agree, cant disagree. Welp

[proper breach]

i like penetration testing but i don't know how to get started some of my friends said there is a scope of improvement in data science so i am trying to opt that domain

[main thicket]

Can debate it, but not very successfully. Guided learning is almost always easier than self-learning

[tame crystal]

Sure. Im a uni student, but yet i do self learning for each and every practical skill. Sigh. Guided learning is great, but if you do self learning along with it, that's a cherry on top.

[main thicket]

Well duh, more learning = better

[proper breach]

@tame crystal can u guide me on how to get started in cyber security

[tame crystal]

Im not qualified enough for that domain. But i can send and link you to some resources, where you can do some research reading and figure out how exactly this cysec domain works. Whether that's good for you or not, you can figure it out yourself. Is that fine?

[proper breach]

@tame crystal @night pasture what do u guys do like what are u learning r u guys students,its totally fine u can ping me

[tame crystal]

im doing computer science (Software development oriented in my uni)

[proper breach]

whats uni 😅

[tame crystal]

university. haha my bad

[proper breach]

whats the name of ur uni

[gilded valley]

thank you so much for the clarification

[night pasture]

I'm 14 years old and my goal is to get into software development in formula 1

[proper breach]

are u talking about car racing formula 1

[night pasture]

yeah, brmmmm brmmmm lol

[ashen elk]

MIT and CMU - number 2 and 1 respectively for AI and Machine Learning.

getting into both as an international student is hard AF tho. (but then, that is the case for most good unis)

[little trellis]

For anyone really haha

[ashen elk]

if you are in India, IIT would be sufficient - but not very outstanding. International gives you more cred

[proper breach]

your right

[little trellis]

Some of the smartest and earliest starting engineers I know failed to get into CMU and they did more than fine. Focus on a good uni that won't put you in too much debt.

[ashen elk]

Data science and Cyber sec are pretty far apart. I recommend you chose one

[proper breach]

cyber sec is my fav

[ashen elk]

well, it's supposed to be competitive - what else explains their worth?

[ashen elk]

yea, then there is not much for CyberSec that IIT doesn't teach - not a bad option. but again, if you get international you are basically a god (because you have to score scholarship too)

[little trellis]

I would argue that the ever decreasing acceptance rates mostly increase their perceived value rather than actual.

[ashen elk]

CMU and MIT get their status for the outstanding research results they produce in AI. CMU does a bit more than MIT, So it gets the top spot - tho MIT is also pretty good

[little trellis]

I disagree. That may be a part of it but in the vast majority of the public's eye, I believe that people hold these schools with such high esteem mainly because of their exclusivity.

It can help a bit and you get access to a really good network but like I've said before I've worked with plenty of people who have gone to very prestigious schools and do the same job at the same company as I do. People who are motivated, will do well in the world regardless. I would argue that the value provided from a big name school is not more than the difference in debt you take on in a lot of cases.

[ashen elk]

of course that happens - that's why judging people by their college never helps. its just that because of the highly selective process, you are exposed to more smarter and like-minded people that may help you achieve more in research and competetions.

People who are motivated, will do well in the world regardless. I would argue that the value provided from a big name school is not more than the difference in debt you take on in a lot of cases.
Fully agree, that's why I said you need a scholarship too ^^ because getting international+scholarship looks like cream

[little trellis]

I think intent matters in this case. Research is a very different world. If your goal is to get a PHD and secure a top academic job at a research institution where it is extremely competitive then these things matter a lot more than someone trying to do well in the industry.

[ashen elk]

yeah, Im prob for corporate research tho - not exactly academia

anyways @proper breach if you really want the best "world university" nothing better than aiming for MIT

it would be extremely hard tho, but "if you aim for the stars, you land on the moon"

basically, you would need your extra-curriculars to be top tier - mostly state and national level. along with academics and probably a few other things that set you apart (like google competions)

[rustic hawk]

hello

[brittle charm]

@rustic hawk Hi

[mortal wedge]

I just need to chime in that suggesting that someone doesn't get a degree when pursuing a career as a developer is simply bad advice. In any hiring process I've been a part of, all applicants without a degree have been tossed out. Is it possible to get a good job without going to uni? Sure, it's within the realm of possibility. But for most people, they'll get a better job with a degree or maybe they don't get a developer job at all.

We get so many applicants and hunting down new hires is not a fun part of our job. It's just a necessary thing we do in addition to our regular duties. (I'm not HR and don't do the initial screening, I'm part of the descision making process but I really just want to get back to work.) I know it's not fair, but we're looking for ways to discriminate resumes and those without a degree are a really easy category to toss out. You're going to need to be a really prolific dev and have some good connections if you want a chance at a job without a degree.

Caveat, this is based off of my experience both as a job hunter and as a decision maker in the hiring process in the US.

[gilded valley]

not necessarily career, but partly related, is it difficult to get a spot in MIT?

[hearty island]

yes it is indeed difficult to get a spot at any top college. Here's their admissions website if you want to take a look: https://mitadmissions.org/apply/process/stats/

[lucid vapor]

Yes, absolutely. I personally haven't looked too much at college admissions as a 9th grader, but the stats I've seen show that they have a really low admission rate.

[shut cape]

Counterpoint: I'm at a faang and roughly a third of my colleagues don't have degrees.

A referral in a professional context can be just as good as a degree. It's imperative that you find local professional organizations to be a part of. My referral came through a member of a technical community like this one.

[summer roost]

There's an important distinction here between junior and senior hires. It is hard to find places that will give you a shot as a junior engineer when you do not have a degree. Once you get a shot, though, the jobs you've held and your track record in them become the bar that you're judged on, rather than your education credentials

It's definitely harder to break into the industry without a degree than with one. It's also true that most jobs you'll have won't care at all whether you have a degree - but the first one, maybe two, usually will.

[mortal wedge]

I had an engineering degree and had a hard enough time. I'd hate to see what would have happened if I didn't even have that.

Quick google (lol) search on google seems to indicate that 88% have degrees, but that's including their marketing/communications and sales staff. Haven't found one for just dev positions.

[shut cape]

Many of my non-degree-holding coworkers and industry colleagues got their start based on contributions to open source projects, even small ones.

The fact of the matter is that a degree proves you can jump when asked and do certain things. Having worked on open source projects both before, during, and after my college time, getting real work done in open source counts for far more than college projects.

The other is also that you're fighting an applicant tracking systems. They're automated, they're terrible, and humans don't have any input until long after the process has been run by those ATSs.

I won't say it's immoral to keyword stuff your way to glory by abusing keyword stuffing systems, but it's certainly not going to hurt. My personal resume has a bunch of synonyms for each of my verbs and adjectives hidden in the pdf. The entire format is meant to be parsable by ATSs. Before a human even sees a resume, it gets filtered. I've seen resumes that were perfect get tossed out. Most folks couldn't get hired for their own position because of ATS systems.

However, don't take what I'm saying as saying "don't go to college" or that it's useless. Community college is a fantastic start and gives you a ton of options to learn what want to do. It helps you get a ton of things that another college will want -- the common classes in the math and sciences, language and such. It gives you a chance to see a lot of options. I did an associate's degree in network administration, then turned around and did a degree in communications at a local university.

And I work at a faang. I work on, ostensibly, the internet. Also happen to know that my managers give about zero care about what college you went to or what you did there. They're focused on making sure you can do the job.

[hearty island]

how'd you hide those key terms in your resume? just make the font white?

[shut cape]

0.0000001pt type in zero width boxes in LaTeX.

The metadata for the whole thing is also faked to make it look like it came out of Word, but that's a totally separate issue.

[hearty island]

oh nice

[shut cape]

My published online one has none of that, the one I submit to ATSs gets stuffed

[hearty island]

I've read some stuff saying it's not encouraged. There's this: https://www.thecvstore.net/blog/cv-ats-white-font/ and this: https://www.jobscan.co/blog/resume-keyword-stuffing/#:~:text=Perhaps the most egregious way,it's invisible to human eyes. there's more

[near ocean]

That sounds immoral tbh and not advice that should be given out

[summer roost]

It's also very true that it doesn't matter very much what degree you have. A few CS courses plus a STEM degree is still valued more highly by hiring managers for entry level coding jobs than no degree at all would be.

[summer roost]

I think there's an interesting line to walk here. I don't think it's ever wise to lie in order to get a job, but is tricking an algorithm lying? 🤷

[shut cape]

In my case, it's specially built so that ATS systems get special rendered versions. The PDF knows what is being used to render it because postscript is a turing complete language

[near ocean]

Tricking the algorithm only perpetuates use of said algorithm or better, we're just getting ourselves stuck in a vicious cycle
Also, isnt that also lying basically...

[hearty island]

Yeah I second what mariosis is saying

[summer roost]

Tricking the algorithm only perpetuates use of said algorithm or better, we're just getting ourselves stuck in a vicious cycle
That's true, but it's a tragedy of the commons situation. The best option for any individual job seeker leads to overall worse outcomes for the industry.

Also, isnt that also lying basically...
🤷 I can see both sides of that argument.

[near ocean]

I personally dont care what each individual does to their CV but i dont think this practice should be encouraged here or even discussed

[shut cape]

It's absolutely a vicious cycle. I wouldn't suggest someone do it, and again, the ATS resume that I have was built to specifically not lie directly but stuff the box to make it more likely I'll say the right word it's looking for.

It also doesn't render my name, since it's a neutral but leaning female name, and that's already a lot off.

[mortal wedge]

I think this advice may be out of date. ATS these days will convert everything to plaintext which once it reaches a human eye will be obvious what you're doing.
You'll likely fail the process and get no feedback. However, I do recommend keywording a custom resume to the job. But work it in intelligently.

[mortal wedge]

Agree with this. If you have a STEM degree, especially an engineering one, that won't disqualify you from CS roles. Philosophy majors will have a more difficult time getting in the door though to any job tbh

While we're on the topic of ATS's, I highly recommend a site like jobscan.co, it parses both your resume and the job description and let's you know how likely you are to pass the ATS of that specific company, including giving you tips on how to improve.

[cyan root]

Hello everybody

Can I ask "something between career and life purpose" question here?

Im a beginner at programming. I want you to guide me through some of questions I have been asking myself lately. Where should I start? I want to tie programming with art, data analysis (in case of making predictions), health, transhumanism and so on. I just dont know which area of programming to explore. I have come to conclusion that AI Programming fits me well, thats why Im in Python subreddit (I read that Python may be the closest to be named "best ai programming language"). Sorry if I`m drowning you in text, my mind is racing a little bit. So, where do I start?

[hearty island]

@cyan root a good place to start at is !resources. Automate the Boring Stuff w Python is great for python beginners.

[cyan root]

Thank you for answer. any tips how long will it take?

[ocean ledge]

i have no idea what "ai programming is", but what you're posting doesn't really make a lot of cohesive sense-- still, why not take a look at "the coding train" youtube channel, which talks a lot about interactive programming

[cyan root]

My prime is art, I absolutely adore making music and design. Programmign was chosen because I cant make solid and stable money by art, nobody can. Is there any art-related spheres of programming?

[cyan root]

I have read that AI Programming includes data science, machine learning etc etc. Right now Im studying Python for beginners, so im not going deep in near future

[ocean ledge]

sure, but a lot of that is tangential to your art focus

[cyan root]

Thanks, pastafish

[ocean ledge]

if you want inspiration, take a look at hardmaru's blog https://blog.otoro.net/archive.html

[summer roost]

Robotics and electronics might be the most directly art adjacent areas. Which are more Electronic Engineering than they are Computer Science.

[cyan root]

Thanks a lot guys, added everything in collection. Do you think that some ai concepts could be applied to art?

[ocean ledge]

generative modeling is usually the keywords to look at (deepdream, google's magenta project, etc) but your background would have to be considerably stronger to make something meaningful from it

the upside is that if you understand at that level well you'd be pretty much golden for a lot of engineering jobs to begin with

[cyan root]

Added to collection. Again. Did I make the right move by choosing Python to begin with?

[ocean ledge]

shrug

[summer roost]

Most programmers know multiple languages. Python is an excellent one to start with.

And, lots of people have jobs and hobbies with little or no overlap, also. It's not necessarily the worst thing if your 40 hour a week job doesn't overlap with your passion.

[ocean ledge]

the right move was to start somewhere, so just start

[cyan root]

thanks 😇

[main thicket]

What, formula 1 is about racing cars. There's pretty much no software involved

[night pasture]

there is loadsss of software involved, especially loads of data and systems and complex stuff

[main thicket]

Okay first of all "data and systems and complex stuff" doesn't say much. A lot of the software is not written by software engineers but by mechanical engineers specialising in vehicle dynamics and control.

There will be some embedded stuff but that's minimal still compared to other stuff. The truth is formula 1 is very much an engineering problem not a programming one.

[summer roost]

there may be loads of software involved, but there's loads of software involved in basically anything these days, and the loads of software involved in racecars is orders of magnitude smaller than the loads involved in just about anything else.

like, the bank that you have your checking account at probably has a codebase that is somewhere between 1,000 and 1,000,000 times as many lines of code as go into a formula 1 car.

[marsh wind]

Why make it look coming from word

[night pasture]

yeah, you're both right. to be more specific, im probably going to go into engine mapping and setups

[ashen elk]

There would be software involved, but pretty simple straightforward programming about engine status, processing sensors etc. nothing very fancy or exciting - if that indeed is what you want then go for it

[near ocean]

And they're, god forbid, java

[ashen elk]

wuz wrong with Java? it's pretty secure and simple enough for financial applications

[weary sable]

what is the useful gadget for programmers? please ping me i will be there shortly

[lucid vapor]

Intellisense. It really helps. Also a good debugger.

[weary sable]

is intellisense a thing or?

[hearty island]

https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/editor/intellisense#:~:text=IntelliSense is a general term,%2C and "code hinting."

[weary sable]

this is the only one that has an intellisense?

[lucid vapor]

No, many other editors have it.

[near ocean]

If by gadget you mean an object then probably a very nice ergonomic chair and screen stand

[weary sable]

yes gadget i was talking about

anything else?

[shadow moss]

Security is actually a problem with Java, while Java itself is secure, many of commonly used 3rd party libraries are not, there is also an issue with Java version upgrades being really breaking causing many companies to get stuck between running insecure code or spending a ton of time refactoring code to run on latest version

[hazy rose]

ultrawide monitor is pretty sweet

[ocean ledge]

48 inch ultrawide minimum for programming

[gray anvil]

They have ultra wides at the hot desks at work for you to plug your laptop to and I absolutely cannot use them

[gray anvil]

I have to set it to 1920x1080 and be a boomer...

[winter marten]

!resource

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[mellow tapir]

I want to start contributing to Open Source projects Where can I get started? What are some of the things I should know? What projects can I contribute to?

[lucid vapor]

There are many! But this Discord has its own projects too, like the bots and the website. You can check out #dev-contrib and https://git.pydis.com.

[mellow tapir]

Thanks! I want to get started, I need some stuff in my resume too

[lucid vapor]

You can always contribute to some open source libraries or projects on GitHub too.

[mellow tapir]

Thanks

[cosmic widget]

I have a question, are programming jobs going to pay a lot less in like lets say 10-20 years?

[main thicket]

nobody knows. I suspect yes, some people here suspect no. No one can predict the market

[sudden quartz]

"programming jobs" very broad, pointless question

[cosmic widget]

i feel like there are more and more programmers now and in like 10 years, the pay would decrease by alot because demand would be less , is this true?

[main thicket]

programmers are gonna keep increasing because programming is the new manual labour. if work needs to be done on a computer that doesn't have speciality software designed for it that people have access to already, programmers are needed

[sudden quartz]

competition has no correlation with the pay... more of the world is learning coding but that doesnt mean they do it for a living at a high degree of skill

[main thicket]

demand is only one of the factors. Supply is the other big one. The next big one is how close the role is to being a financial source (or if they're a financial sink)

In the last decade, demand has increased rapidly while supply hasn't caught up (because people take time to notice market trends and education takes years). As increase in demand decreases while supply increases faster (slow to change as always), you're likely gonna see some oversaturation (already starting to happen at junior level in some places).

And no one knows if "software tech" is going to keep being seen more and more as a financial source as the players become more stable and VCs start getting tired and focusing on different sectors (robotics, biotech, who knows the next revolution), or if it's going to keep being seen as an high growth easy return of investment field

TL;DR: no one knows, it's fine right now. Do your best, stay adaptable.

[sudden quartz]

Oversaturation, primarily being because swe jobs are like a possible go-to job for literally every stem major + the post liberal arts grad software transitioners, this also just because there are so many jobs avaliable and its not slowing down anytime soon in that regard

[main thicket]

It's not just the whole STEM major transition thing. I'm pretty involved in some high school spheres and so many people are going into CS majors right now

[cosmic widget]

yes, thats kinda what im afraid of, so many people are trying to learn programming and in 10 years , the market is going to be filled with programmers and will decrease pay while you need to work harder as there will be more competition.

[sudden quartz]

Pay wont necessarily be affected by oversaturation- if that ever happens. If the market suddenly considers programming as less valuable, i can only see the opening of more lower payed menial coding positions. The actual value of swe wont change. Even now there are going to be complaints about needing 'good' SWE's. Its a skilled position. Youre right on the competition part, but its a skill based field anyway

[cosmic widget]

alright thanks for the comments, kinda released some worries

[main thicket]

Pay wont necessarily be affected by oversaturation- if that ever happens
Basically desirable every field oversaturates at some point unless something interferes.
If the market suddenly considers programming as less valuable, i can only see the opening of more lower payed menial coding positions
You're making a distinction between SWE positions and "low paid menial coding positions" that I dont believe exists
Even now there are going to be complaints about needing 'good' SWE's.
Junior market is starting to get flooded; the only real shortage is of senior level devs. For reference, you see the same complaints about "shortages" in traditional engineering fields that are paid less. Everyone complains about getting better candidates, even when the market is saturated.
Its a skilled position
There are a lot more lower paid lot more more skilled positions than SWE
but its a skill based field anyway
not sure how that's relevant, most technical fields are skill based. Problem is you can have a lot of people skilled in one thing, which is definitely true for a field like SWE which is very easy to self learn

[vital crest]

Hello, May I ask what kind of projects there are for youth to join when learning python?

[nocturne snow]

That's why you go into management (added value management, not micromanaging) asap if you're really worried about your potential 'value' in the future

[tawny frigate]

Guys, i have found a discord gif that crashes your discord. It only works on PC. Does anny of you know if this is a virus. Ore if not how it works?
It crashes ad the end of the gif.

[cold birch]

1m slowmode 🗿

[prisma gyro]

what?

[ashen elk]

what about potential automation with ML? (A distant, yet possible scenario)

[onyx plover]

But is demand for programming also increasing at the same rate as programmers?

[wild isle]

Hello!

[frigid crow]

hi

can anybody explain me about big data and how it is a carrier choice

[mortal wedge]

Big data is a career choice since companies want their decisions to be data driven. It's also important for research and development, if that's your thing. Big data is basically when you need to process huge tons of data, especially complex data sets. For instance, you can't run these locally on your computer, your computer would hang/crash. The methods for processing large swathes of data can be complex and non-intuitive.
A career focused around big data would mean that you'd become someone to go to for these sorts of processings.

[mortal wedge]

I don't think there will be a bottleneck any time soon. Over time, people will learn to apply programming more creatively to things they didn't before.

[mortal wedge]

I don't know exactly how it works, but this isn't the channel for it. This is #career-advice .

[mortal wedge]

The problem here is that when a company does major downsizing or gets bought out, it's the highest salaried people that usually go out the door, which in this case is management.

[night pasture]

i'd imagine thats unlikely if you're at a large/successful organisation?

[mortal wedge]

Sky's the limit. I would start with open source projects, they often always benefit from additional help, even if all you're doing is simple bug fixes and typos and the like. But Python is a very diverse language that applies to many fields, I recommend you seek out open source projects that interest you.

[mortal wedge]

You'd be surprised. I was part of a global large and successful company before my last gig. Covid hit them hard and they laid off half of their grunt staff and almost every managerial position. It's just a quick way to cut costs.

[vital crest]

Thank you

[mortal wedge]

Anytime, I'm happy to help

[mortal wedge]

I did find a source the other day, looking at google, that showed that 88% of their employees have degrees. But that's also accounting for non-software departments, I can only imagine it would be higher beyond that. So if your goal is to get into FAANG, CS degree is recommended.

Without context, people try to get into FAANG due to your salary probably being 2-3 times as large.

A quick google search isn't showing me how much of the market FAANG has captured. If you just want a job ASAP.... CS degree locks you in for 3-4 years or however you take to complete but you could theoretically get a job right off the bat after you complete a boot camp. However, while you may have the same skills at the end, boot camps aren't seen in the same light as degrees due to the wildly varying quality of boot camp courses. You're going to have to hustle for a job.

I know it's not what you want to hear, but a lot of companies, mine included, will flat out not consider a junior dev without a degree.

The good news is that if you do manage to find a job, companies will care less and less about your education compared to your work experience. It's so variable that it's hard to say which is faster.

For some context, it took me a year maybe year and a half of freelancing, studying, and job searching until I got a full time gig that was of good quality

[ocean ledge]

even companies that don't list a degree requirement will generally be flooded with so many resumes with degrees that you'll need to stand out in some way

[mortal wedge]

Yeah. I could go into it if you like, but you'll have to do things like have a solid portfolio, build up a reputation, andnetwork like crazy.

[ocean ledge]

at my company we don't require a degree per se, but in practice most of our candidates for (junior ds) have at least a masters

[mortal wedge]

^ This is not uncommon, I ran into quite a few major companies that required a masters for an entry level position. It's insane, but companies have the ability to discriminate to that degree.

How do you feel about the self-hustle and networking?
Some people need that outside structure and balk at social activities. Going the bootcamp route is not for them.

Minor caveat, all my experience is in the US, ymmv in other countries

[summer roost]

It's mostly asking your friend for a favor, honestly. Lots of people manage to get better jobs and raises based primarily on recommendations from friends and former co-workers. And they're also the best resource to figure out what market rate for your skill level is.

[mortal wedge]

You get contacts wherever you can. Whether it's a community like here, going to networking events, or cold "calling" people on linkedin. Family, friends, I searched for contacts everywhere,, lol.

People who want a career. Ah, I see what you're saying. People do network, which can be seen as building friends just for the sake of job seeking. But it's sort of a we're all in this together thing and someone who helps you one day you might be able to help the next.

[summer roost]

I think you should make time to read through it. There was a pretty nuanced discussion about a week or so ago, including people who have different perspectives of the hiring pipeline. It's hard to get good stats on this because both boot camps and colleges have incentives to exaggerate how successful their graduates are.

Eh, people have work friends who they rarely socialize with on weekends, but will spend time with at lunch or for an hour or two after work. Still friends, just different kinds of friends.

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, that was the best I could find for degrees vs non-degrees in FAANG

[sudden quartz]

9/10 your first job is thanks to networking

[ocean ledge]

there seems to be a weird edgy take on networking going on here, when its really less cynically motivated than it is-- its not a big deal to have a former coworker (even one you haven't spent that much time with) put your name as a referral to a better company, mostly because it takes no time, and they might have a prior on your abilities

[summer roost]

"networking" is just a fancy way of saying forming relationships with other people in the hopes that they may one day be helpful to your career. When viewed that way, it's almost accidental. Don't be an asshole to others, ask other people what they're working on, talk to them about cool stuff that comes up, and they'll like you and want to help you if they ever get the opportunity, and vice versa. Lots of career success just comes from knowing someone who can get you through the door, or tell you when an opportunity has come up that would be up your alley.

[sudden quartz]

its as simple as having people able to vouch for your skill

[mortal wedge]

There's a reason networking works so great. Hiring people is painful and tedious. I'd rather just have a coworker vouch for someone and avoid the whole process. If it turns out they suck, then it falls back on the person who did the vouching.

[hearty island]

networking is good

[summer roost]

To that end, evaluating the skill level of programmers is really hard, and for a hiring manager to have someone they know and trust say "this guy's a good coder" immediately puts you closer to the top of the pile.

[mortal wedge]

If you're taking the bootcamp route, I have a hard time seeing that take a good career path without networking.

That's part of networking (contacting people at your college or a nearby college)

[tropic lance]

You can get a job coding python?

[sudden quartz]

uh, you can? but explain

[mortal wedge]

A lot of professors will only have time for you if you attend the university or are one of their students, but you might get lucky.

[summer roost]

Because most networking is accidental. The friends people make in college help them get jobs later in life. The friends people make at work, likewise. You can put yourself in a position to become friends with others, but it's hard to force friendship.

[tropic lance]

Since when is python used by companies

[sudden quartz]

Id advise against that then. But if there is a hackathon or an event, go for it. otherwise its obvious youre just a bootcamper who didnt go to college trying to newtwork. (Unless youre in highschool, then I advise contacting universities even out of the blue)

[mortal wedge]

All the time. It's the go to language for many where they have programming tasks that aren't gated by speed/memory

[summer roost]

Sure, you don't, but from their point of view, they'll more likely form friendships with people they see regularly and can chat with about classes and ask if anyone else understood this homework problem, etc

[tropic lance]

But speed/memory is what drives pretty much everything @mortal wedge

[sudden quartz]

except matlab

[summer roost]

No. No it isn't. The cost of programmer time outweighs the cost of machine resources by around an order of magnitude for most tasks.

[mortal wedge]

I love that instead of typing out a long response I can usually just wait for godlygeek to say the same thing

[tropic lance]

@summer roost I dont understand what you just said

[errant glade]

Why kind of jobs can a Python programmer do in current job market?

[sudden quartz]

automation at lowest level, and data science

[tropic lance]

print(“hello”) @errant glade probably

[errant glade]

What other skills are necessary to be learnt in addition to Python to work with Python?

[summer roost]

Programmers are expensive, and throwing more hardware at a slow program is cheap. If programmers can code faster in a slower language, the company just buys more hardware and gets more work done.

[mortal wedge]

Depends vastly on the field you want to get into. Front-end web development? Also learn JS. Etc.

[tropic lance]

but python isn’t just slow, it also kinda lacks things other big languages have

[ocean ledge]

such as?

[sudden quartz]

I dont see that happening tbh. Focus on attending events. there are a lot

[tropic lance]

python is a really basic language compared to things like C right @ocean ledge

[errant glade]

What about machine learning jobs? Is masters enough to start or a phd is required? And what kind of entry level jobs can be found

[mortal wedge]

This is probably a conversation for #python-discussion

Networking is how you bypass the ATS and HR department. So either you network and "cheat" the system or you have the credentials to get by the ATS and HR in the first place.

It may not be fair, but ATS and HR are how companies winnow down the candidates so you don't overburden the decision makers who already have fulltime responsibilities doing other things.

[mortal wedge]

Masters is likely enough. Especially with python, anyone who knows the python libraries knows that a PhD is not required to use them. They make them pretty damn easy. That being said, a masters makes sure you have the background knowledge to use the tool effectively.

[errant glade]

What jobs to look for after completing masters in AI if I want to start a career in machine learning?

[ocean ledge]

ml engineer, data scientist, applied scientist, etc

[mortal wedge]

It's a social skill (that can be practicsed like any other skill) where you will get a lot of different opinions on the most effective way to network.

Heh, my best contact was a random girl I chatted up at a bar who happened to be a recruiter for my industry.

[lost sail]

is masters really required for getting a job as a machine learning engineer?

[errant glade]

It depends

[mortal wedge]

Some people dislike using recruiters, but I've found them to be an invaluable resource.

[ocean ledge]

no, not really-- but you most definitely should have a strong math background... half your time is spent reading papers

[sudden quartz]

if you want to do research, yeah

[errant glade]

Quick learner you don’t need masters also you can’t get into the big companies without masters or phd

[ocean ledge]

not true, you can

[errant glade]

An ML engineer is someone who understands the algorithms and concepts from scratch bottom to top and how to pass the interview for an ML engineering job?

[ocean ledge]

you just said it, read your first sentence

[tribal briar]

What I think people are saying is a degree provides a signal to employers and that if you choose a different path, you’re going to need some networking to supply an additional signal about technical capabilities. Having someone vouch for you also has the benefit of showing that you have at least the minimum soft skills to be employable. Given someone who says “A is technically brilliant, but a real pain to work with” and “B is technically solid and is good to work with,” I would absolutely pick B.

[ocean ledge]

it does-- thats how i got my first job

[ashen elk]

networking helps - a ton. you can do by portfolio (like walking) but sometimes networking allows you to accelerate like a car

[ocean ledge]

if you have a sufficiently thin spoon, why use a knife to eat your steak?

[mortal wedge]

They each give you an advantage, so you do both to get all the advantage you can get.

[errant glade]

What’s the alternative if someone finds machine learning to be hard is there a way to effectively speed up learning and be job ready in a month

[hearty island]

in a month?

[ashen elk]

simple answer - no.

[mortal wedge]

Coffee and impending homelessness worked for me!

[ashen elk]

if you find it hard - don't do it then. no point in doing a job that you don't like, or don't like learning about. The reward is the journey.

[mortal wedge]

(and the money)

[errant glade]

Describe what ML engineers do in an entry level job in day to day tasks?

[ashen elk]

that...is not a good motivator. nor is something you should always aim for

[errant glade]

Money is the additional reward

[ashen elk]

What’s the alternative if someone finds machine learning to be hard is there a way to effectively speed up learning and be job ready in a month

You will be job-ready - just not for a good one

[tribal briar]

Given two people with portfolios that show they know what they’re doing, I’d generally pick the one who had someone vouch that they knew how to behave in a professional setting. There are a lot of people who don’t know how to do that, and they are no fun to work with.

[ashen elk]

if as a recruiter, someone told me that you have learnt the skills for the position in 1 month, you are out of the door. No one can learn that quick - unless you are a genius

[sudden quartz]

if youre comparing your portfolio to CS majors, some of those people have even made compilers by they graduate. and other could have weaker portfolio or just one project but its more similar to what they want on the job than what you would have done. i would never assume a better portfolio

[tribal briar]

Certainly a possibility. But I think that puts a lot faith in the ability of decision makers to objectively determine which is better. A portfolio that’s clearly outstanding versus one that’s just okay, but with a strong recommendation are probably closer than you think.

[sudden quartz]

pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft. god no i wish

[ocean ledge]

lmfao

tbf, you don't need a CS degree to get a software job... i certainly don't

[mortal wedge]

Yeah that sounds like someone taking a basic CS class for a non-CS major

LOL WHAT

I'm non-CS and I've had to solve for complex eigenvalues. Don't know how someone at a decent college could get away with just law of cosines

[hearty island]

Business analytics degree here 🥴

[summer roost]

We're giving you "balance of probability" answers. The best people to graduate from a bootcamp will be better than many people who graduate with a CS degree. The people who form the best relationships at a bootcamp will form more and better relationships than many with a CS degree. Some people from bootcamps will be hired into higher paying jobs than some people with degrees.

But on balance, the most likely outcome for someone who attends a bootcamp is that they will have a harder time breaking into the industry than someone with a degree, a smaller network, and a lower salary. That's nothing about your particular skills, just a population average.

[ashen elk]

really? that doesn't seem to add much, if you degree is unrelated to the position
then your acceptance is more on your cred rather than the degree being considered

I have seen some collegers as early as the first year do peer-reviewed publications on their own.
but they are outliers, most usually perform under a professor.

[ocean ledge]

somewhat-- my degree is in pure math, not in CS, and I didn't know how to program until ~6 months before i landed my first job. if you're going into data science, having a sense of statistics/math is a lot more helpful initially than just engineering creds... though having a good engineering manager on the job helps speed up the learning process

[sudden quartz]

as a math minor i personally take advanced maths, and my department is very mathematical. but some schools do mabye 1 or 2 math classes after calc 2 if any (this is not taking into account CS math like theory of comp)

[ashen elk]

yeah, but if someone has some degree, say in business/management, that won't give much cred.

tbf, you don't need a CS degree to get a software job... i certainly don't
math isn't too far off - it would be quite useful for quite some areas, but not for someone doing business or management 🥴

[ocean ledge]

for sure-- but the overwhelming perspective in this room is that a CS degree is the end-all-be-all... it's not. there are many roads to rome

[mortal wedge]

Don't remember the line count, but advanced calculus and linear algebra

[sudden quartz]

only AI/data classes should have projects that require use of maths. (in general)

[ashen elk]

r u saying that 2 applicants with philosphy degree and a CS degree (ignoring other factors) would cause the phil guy to have the same chance as the CS one? 🥴

I would say only if that degree is somewhat related to CS (Math, STEM, etc.)

[mortal wedge]

I'd highly recommend at least a degree in STEM.

I know it's not an option for everyone and college is expensive, I get it. I still would generally recommend college path to most if you have stable food and housing.

[ocean ledge]

ignoring all other factors, yeah-- the phil guy is probably more fun to talk to 😛

[sudden quartz]

Im gonna inject here that 'software jobs' could mean anything but this does not mean you are equal to the computer science major. At best you could be better at an average compsci major and the specific software job/technology if youre smart. And hope you dont get overtaken. CS majors are capable of landing a job in every single area of software related work, (infosec, comms, more), and can go into research. Saying a BS is for networking and connections is plain not true. You will ultimately not advance further into the field without a BS. You can land a job skilled at one single thing you self taught- and just hope you keep it.

[summer roost]

Well, one thing to remember if you do decide to go the bootcamp route is that it doesn't cut off any options. If you graduate from a bootcamp, or two, and can't land a job after a year, you can always apply at a college. It won't have been wasted effort, boot camps tend to teach different skills than CS degrees do (the degrees focus on theory, bootcamps on practical application and job skills). Another thing to note is, as long as we're talking about the US, the college you graduate from barely matters. You can get all of you general education requirements met at a community college, and transfer to a state school for a CS degree for a year or two, and have that be plenty (and much cheaper).

And you've left off some major benefits of college - putting you into a position to get internships is a huge one. Colleges have relationships with companies that want interns, internships teach you skills that the college itself won't, many people go on to work for a company they interned with after college, and even the ones that don't will have an easier time getting hired at other companies because of that prior work experience.

[sudden quartz]

Yeah i was also talking for local entry level stuff. if you do university you can easily get pipelined into faang level companies

[summer roost]

Other than that, in some cases, the CS degree is just a box you need to check in order to get that entry level job. Some companies won't hire people without degrees at all, and even for the ones that will, they see it as useful proof that you've committed to something for several years and succeeded at it.

[ocean ledge]

lets not wax fanatical about CS degrees... they're honestly not that hard, and they still need to work hard to pivot skillsets when the one they worked on runs dry. just like everyone else, it seems

[summer roost]

Yeah. I have a CS degree, and have worked in industry for a decade. I could not take a job as a frontend web developer without putting a year of training into it or attending a boot camp, realistically. I have deep domain expertise, but in entirely different domains with skills that are not at all transferable.

[sudden quartz]

I would not say CS degrees are not that hard. They varies very much- for example, at a certain university one could take 7 CS courses a semester. This is undoubtedly harder than a med school semester. And every degree varies for each person. if you do the bare minimum im not really speaking for you. if you go above a simple concentration. you are extremely powerful. and of course pivoting skills sets applies to everything

[summer roost]

And, conversely, the average frontend developer couldn't do my job without investing tons of time and effort retraining themselves, either.

[ocean ledge]

@hearty island something something magic?

[summer roost]

In fact, I suspect I should go even further, and say that the longer you go in your career, the less transferable your skills are, and that's exactly why your pay goes up: there's fewer people who come with your level of expertise, and so there's less supply for the skills you bring to the table, so employers who want them need to pay more thanks to the laws of supply and demand.

I don't know about indie games in particular, but I know that game dev in general is a very competitive area. Long hours, high stress, unpaid overtime, lots of competition for the jobs, entire teams laid off between projects.

[sudden quartz]

theyre viable to not be a big difference in some cases for sure

[summer roost]

The difference between 60k and 100k is a huge difference in comfort of lifestyle.

Even if you can survive just fine on the $60k, an extra $40k is an extra year's worth of pay every 1.5 years. That makes a huge difference when it comes to medical emergencies, retirement, ability to take vacations, ability to afford a family...

[ocean ledge]

there is however, not much difference at 250k+... other than maybe better real estate

[mortal wedge]

I went from 30k to 90k ^_^ I feel like a king

[summer roost]

I'm not saying money buys happiness by any means, but poverty absolutely buys misery, and lots of people would struggle to keep their head above water at only $60k. I know people who made that much and had $30k of credit card debt.

And, don't get me wrong: that's decent pay for a first job. But your priorities will almost certainly have changed in a decade, and if your pay hasn't, it's likely to be a hindrance for you.

[mortal wedge]

There's a linear relationship between income and self-reported happiness until like 80k or something.

I would like to second that poverty buys misery.

[hearty island]

@ocean ledge 🥴

[ocean ledge]

money is great for people who enjoy vacations outside of the country a few times a year 😛

[mortal wedge]

That said, there are other aspects/benefits to a job other than financial. Working on cool projects in a field you like with field experts and lower stress may be worth a deficit in pay for you.

[sudden quartz]

bonuses and stock to think about as well, and price of living. which is why i said that in some cases 60 and 100 may end up in a similar place

[hearty island]

what's a nc caurse

[ashen elk]

dunno, but prom-gramming is when you want to get a girl to prom, but want to program at the same time

[hearty island]

🥴 good one

[leaden jasper]

@vapid jay Please don't advertise on our server. See rule 6 please for clarification.

[vapid jay]

i was talking about a python course

[summer roost]

Even so, that isn't allowed per our rules.

[empty mauve]

Guys, I want to be a software engineer and work with cyber security (If things works out for me ;-;)

But I'm stuck with choosing subjects.. I take the IGCSE exams, currently I'm wondering if I need chemistry and biology for my college and career choice?? Can someone help me out

[main thicket]

CS degrees in the UK generally have no other requirements than Maths subjects and maybe a science. Chemistry and biology won't be necessary, but one of phys, chem or bio would be good.

[empty mauve]

So like if I went for Math, Physics, CS, ICT, English, Arabic (My language if needed in college) and Business (or chem). It will be good right?

[main thicket]

Should be fine, yes

Assuming you're going to the UK*. I'm not sure what country you're in and what the requirements there are @empty mauve

[empty mauve]

That's my biggest problem, I don't know in which country I'm going to attend college at. My grades are not the best for choosing where I want to be, but I have to be sure my subjects are correct because catching up is like a gamble @main thicket .

[main thicket]

Which countries do you plan on? It should be fine in the US, UK, Australia and potentially Canada.

[empty mauve]

Well, for the "worst" case I might end up at my home country Jordan, but If hope and online classes is on my side, then Canada or denmark.. (idk about the US, you may include it 😂 )

[main thicket]

You'll have to check entrance requirements for Jordan but I think most universities in canada will accept that for computer science (but not computer engineering). I don't know Denmark either

[empty mauve]

I don't know if online classes made me suffer or I'm bad at chemistry, that subject is the sole reason why I'm having this flipping problem.

[empty mauve]

I'm going for computer programming, web development and game development to be specific. So I think ill have a chance for chemistry not to be added.

Anyways, thank you for the help! I'll try to research much harder after my O level exams are done.. (cancelled so we have to do the predicted gradings :/).

[halcyon edge]

Hey could anyone tell me the best IDE for developing python and also most dominantly used in the data analytics industry?

[dark lintel]

Hi. Does anyone know what the key is to get a job?

[hearty island]

@dark lintel “Hi. This is kinda random but does anyone know what the trick is to get a job? I'm clueless” you’ve asked this question before. I’m not sure if you’re trying to troll here.

[ancient cove]

Just a question how many of you guys applied to Google and got accepted or rejected?

I just wanna know my chances. Also how did you guys cope with the rejection?

[gray anvil]

@empty mauve I was in a similar situation at your age, I took regular A levels back in the day and aced everything except Chem. If you have the opportunity to pick subjects know your strength. I've worked as a university entrance counsellor, and unless you want to go into biochem or medicine you don't need the chemistry

Do business or econ and take the opportunity to practise your essay skills, they'll serve you well 👍

[blazing dew]

!warn 798548729610240000 We don't do recruitment here. Please reread our #rules and #code-of-conduct if you decide to post again.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @pseudo ivy.

[main thicket]

Acceptance rates from application to grad offer are 1-2% or less , so you'd be in good company if you got rejected.

[ancient cove]

that's higher than i thought

[gray anvil]

Google picks from the best of the best of the best, so don't sweat it

The best students of the best universities with the best experience profiles

[sudden quartz]

with the best social medias

[gray anvil]

They wear the freshest clothes and eat at the chillest restaurants

[astral apex]

Oooo

[main thicket]

What? No one looks at your social media

[astral apex]

They select on the basis of your knowledge and skills

[calm rapids]

hey guys I'm now studying in CSE. But in my uni they are teaching us python which is the easiest language. I haven't started competitive programming yet coz i have no idea about C++. Should I switch to C++? Because my friend told me if i want to get job in big companies I must learn C++ and start CP. What to do? I'm frustrated 🙂 I just started coding .

[digital fjord]

you don't need to do competitive programming nor do you need to know cpp, but if you want to do competitive programming, you do need cpp

[stoic mesa]

Hello everyone Hope everyone's doing great and Kaizen ! I just have few questions i am Learning python but the job market in my area is basically MERN & PHP so at this point me not fluent in python and my goal to land a job in 45 days seems a little bit of challenging . I have an huge appetite for ML but at the same time the market is full of MERN jobs and that's what is acquiring plan B space in and stopping me at present phase to take meaningful decisions I want to be an FSE ! any help is helpful!

[empty mauve]

Thanks for the advice! I'm currently going for software engineering and cyber security by taking computer science field, the science ill be taking is physics. Business will be used if I wanted to do any serious business of course. (I still prefer being a worker for some time 😂 )

[empty mauve]

Determination and studying is the simplest way to put it.. There are a lot of factors..

[vapid jay]

can anyone help me that how can i pursue in game developing or animation in higger level

[quartz aspen]

I'm kinda wondering if I should change job

I like the current one but sometimes it's too much pressure. my mentor (coworker who gives me tasks etc, not manager) is often annoyed with me because apparently I don't test enough. while I don't really have "real" experience beside this job, I don't know what edge cases users or infrastructure will introduce and all. "you should think about all the edge cases" - but I don't know anything! it's frustrating.

I get a lot of offers on linkedin, but they're (almost?) always for skill set that exceeds mine or which seem to have a lot of responsibilities (either mentioning libs/technologies I don't know or have little experience in, or just "full stack" which I know I won't fit), while I want something that is just... do the thing, maybe fix the thing, and learn how to properly handle projects and stuff.
oh, and of course they're always for full time, while I cannot handle that - maybe I should get some disability paper for that? I wanted to get autism diagnosis but I didn't need it yet - but that mental overstimulation and shutdown/meltdown are from it...

[gray anvil]

Just remember friend, there are people who can code, but people who can code and also communicate well are considerably rarer

Somebody's got to talk to the stakeholders 😅

[forest oyster]

anyone use leetcode/hackerrank? how are the platforms compared to each other and are the difficulty levels similar? e.g. leetcode medium ~= hackerrank medium problems? or is one harder than the other

[vapid jay]

hello
i wanna learn python
but idk where to start
i downloaded pycharm
dunno if its good tho

[lucid vapor]

Hey! If you want to talk about general python, see #python-discussion. And yes, PyCharm is good.

[hearty island]

idk what that means

[stoic mesa]

@flint heart of midnight this the right channel for carrier discussion right but certainly I feel toxicity here as no one responded to me

[lucid vapor]

I don't follow. And maybe we just don't know the answer to your question.

[hearty island]

idk what a MERN or FSE is till I googled it

[prisma sphinx]

Hi

if I learn python on my path, can i use it for shopify store? if yes then how?
I heard data analytics is useful but do I need to have a career in python to do this data thing first then shopfy?
shopify is the main goal here.

[mortal wedge]

There are three aspects to getting a job. 1) Getting an interview 2) Acing your interview and 3) Keeping your job. They all require practice and generally non-overlapping skillsets.

[mortal wedge]

We use python to interact with the shopify store's API. I'm not the API guy though so that's about the limit of my knowledge.

[prisma sphinx]

interesting....

[mortal wedge]

I applied to Google and was rejected. It's hard to get into google, as you can imagine they have thousands of applicants and multi-tiered processes for getting a job there. I also happen to live near them.

As for rejection, the first cut is the deepest rejection is the hardest. But you get over it, apply some more to other stuff, and learn to take it in stride.

[prisma sphinx]

This comment sounds like sushi....

[mortal wedge]

If linkedin counts as social media, almost every job I interviewed for had someone check my profile before hand. If it doesn't, then I'd still be careful not to have racy things on your facebook or w/e that might disqualify you.

[mortal wedge]

They have a REALLY good coffee place on their campus. Back when google was doing all remote stuff I could get delicious coffee there whenever I wanted. Now in the early morning they are slammed and sold out because everyone came back to work but the coffee shop hasn't been able to accommodate 😦

[empty mauve]

I would rather work for a some-what known business first for experience then slowly apply to better ones if opportunity comes.

[prisma sphinx]

well.. looks like I need to delete my account - 9/11 was an inside job for possibly many reasons.

[mortal wedge]

In addition to what lak said, there are benefits to knowing both languages. I would not have gotten the awesome job I had now if I did not know cpp plus python. It gives you a lot of flexibility in the job market. If you want to get a job in big companies, you want to have good DSA skills to ace the interview which means practicing on the sorts of problems you might find in CP, but you don't actually need to compete/qualify. Maybe that's what they meant.

[mortal wedge]

😄

[plush galleon]

🤔

[mortal wedge]

That's a good idea. It makes you marketable to the better companies AND it helps you keep food on the table.

[prisma sphinx]

well... shrug

[hearty island]

9/11 was WHAT? WHAT?

[prisma sphinx]

What are you thinking about?

[mortal wedge]

Please be more careful with your accusations. I would not consider lack of response to be toxicity. It's possible your question got missed due to volume or people didn't know how to answer your question. I try to go back each day and answer questions that nobody else did, but you used a lot of three letter acronyms I've never heard of before. Maybe if you wrote them out you'd be more likely to get a response.

[lucid vapor]

Pins of this channel have some websites.

[mortal wedge]

Unfortunately I think the best advice I can give is to consider learning other languages. It's rare to have a game fully made in python due to it actually being an area where memory/performance is a concern. As far as animation, I don't know. I haven't heard of a lot of python animation work but animation work is not an area I'm familiar with.

[prisma sphinx]

wait, can a game be made with python???!

[plush galleon]

You can use Java if you already know Java or C#/C++

[fossil ruin]

Yeah modules like pygame are frequently used to make 2d games

[prisma sphinx]

then is there an example of such a project of a game made?

[plush galleon]

Yes but not a heavy one if you want it to be playable in normal conditions

[empty mauve]

I'm a beginner in pygames too, and just go to youtube or search it up for projects.

[plush galleon]

You should ask in #python-discussion or #game-development and avoid slow mode

[prisma sphinx]

Wait there is a limit to python for game-development in terms of being playable? :/ why? how does this stand up to other programming languages?

[empty mauve]

Every language has a limit, by experience you will eventually know that... So just use it and see it for yourself.

[mortal wedge]

I'll do my best to answer this, but I may not be able to speak to all of it. It's a good question, but it's a lot to process.

First of all, when you're working while coworker interaction is important ultimately the only one whose opinion of your performance you should be concerned with is your manager. As far as not knowing edge cases and such, that's something you just have to learn with time. As long as you didn't misrepresent yourself being hired, I assume your manager/company knows that and doesn't mind you learning/being trained. Once you're hired, things like that especially early on are the fault of the manager, not yours, since it's a training issue.

When it comes to job offers/recruiters, they live in a different world than we do. They (generally) don't have the aptitude to fully understand what they're recruiting for so just sort of throw the whole bucket of spaghetti against the wall. If you don't have every single skill listed I wouldn't worry about it, chances are they will take a candidate that doesn't have every skillset (especially since those can be taught.) They're just hoping they get the dream candidate that generally doesn't exist.

That being said, it sounds like you are most comfortable in a software engineer in test position, so if that's what you want to focus on those are the jobs you should be looking for. Will use another post to answer the rest so I don't accidentally delete what I've typed here.

[fossil ruin]

It is too slow for memory intense AAA games where C++ is normally used

[plush galleon]

Ask it in the channels mentioned.

[mortal wedge]

There are quite a few games made wholly
in python but they're definitely in the minority. There's a few listed on wikipedia and I've played them and they're definitely excellent. However, what people have chimed in with is true, especially for AAA games the benchmarks they're looking to pass are memory and speed and python just isn't competitive in those categories.

[mortal wedge]

There's a lot of sites like that, I consider them all roughly equivalent. You will get different opinions by asking in #python-discussion though that perhaps you can weigh.

[mortal wedge]

If you're in the US at least, there is support for those with a disability on the job, the job has to allow for reasonable accomodations and you might qualify for some. THat being said, I'd also consider looking specifically for part time positions.

[prisma sphinx]

oh? im new so I dont know much about python in a deep meaningful way. I know something of the topic about data something something and business something-somethings but its surface level.

[mortal wedge]

I agree wholeheartedly with this! Those with coding ability AND social skills will go far in their careers/business world.

[lucid vapor]

Absolutely. This is so true.

[mortal wedge]

PyCharm is excellent, but it's not the first IDE i'd recommend for beginners. It has a lot of useful features that I find super helpful for production development, but that can easily overwhelm the beginner coder. #python-discussion may have better recommendations for someone starting out.

Check out the top pin for why they institude slowmode. I think it's been useful, even if the slow mode is slightly annoying

[mortal wedge]

So the main benefit to Python is the extensiveness of its open source libraries and how quickly it is to write code for. In cases where the bottleneck to a project is paying for your developer's time (hint: generally the case) python excels.

However, in gamedev developers are generally underpaid and memory/performance is a greater concern. So paying your developers for dev time is no longer the bottleneck. You want languages with less of an overhead than python. C++ is what I hear thrown around the most. I haven't looked too much into game dev because the work conditions are sort of infamous.

One thing you can try is speaking to things you have direct experience with, as opposed to things you just hear from other people and/or common things that could be misonceptions.

It's hard to argue with "When I was looking for a job, I noticed that I got more callbacks when I updated my resume to put my relevant skills at the very top" for instance.

[mortal wedge]

Best of luck! It's a fantastic language, I'm glad I picked it up. This community is stellar as well. I wouldn't have gotten a job or kept the job without this community.

I work as a data signal processing/algorithms engineer for a neuroscience company.

[prisma sphinx]

What is that? I dont understand what that is.

[mortal wedge]

So I create, maintain, and develop libraries that are used by neuroscientists to do analysis, research, and treatment for patients.

[prisma sphinx]

is that what you tell the ladies? (wink wink), As your the support character to the brain surgant? haha 😂 haha 😂
I'm not making fun, I think is is funny, and cool if really true. I just met you.

[mortal wedge]

😛
I love my job. It doesn't pay as well as a job like google, but it's a great fit for me.

[quartz aspen]

We don't have managers. The company's hierarchy is pretty flat because it's a small company (in terms of employee number) and we mostly do stuff for other companies. That's why I call this coworker my mentor because he was the one who originally showed me the ropes etc... but he is not a programmer. It's been already two years and apparently I should be able to read user's minds and know what they can fuck up.
But as I wrote earlier, those 2 years are basically my whole experience with work (part-time at uni for uni wasn't comparable to this, EU-funded stuff is other planet altogether). So it's basically learning from my mistakes, but my mistakes are visible to the client (because they notice something doesn't work, get to us, and we have to explain what we did wrong), so I get shit for that. ._.

[mortal wedge]

I'm sorry, that sounds stressful.

[prisma sphinx]

sniff sniff
"I should be able to read user's minds and know what they can fuck up."
Ears perk up
Is this a job your willing to fill and hire cause I know how to do this.... haha I have extensive user testing in my history and i know about choas engineering. 😉
Are you hiring? haha

[mortal wedge]

Maybe there's reading material or something to study that can help you with this? That would be my first impulse. Mind-reading is ofc impossible but maybe there are steps/processes to use to train yourself to do this sort of thing.

[prisma sphinx]

haha 😂 Please? I can break stuff.. Im good at breaking stuff... pay me in a LinkedIn recommendation.

[quartz aspen]

Not US and no company looks for part-time mid programmers, that's basically only for students. I managed to get part-time because I started as student and stayed there, only partially extending my time.
At some points I wonder if I should just get a job at some big company and just do shit like everyone. I'd need to keep my productivity lower than usual so that I would survive full time and not burn out, but some people say corporate people are not really productive, so I'd fit in, maybe?
I actually wanted to do that originally - get some experience at student internship at some bigass corporation just to see how it really works... but when I was applying to all those internships, no one replied (except for 1 automated with test link, and 2 with people who ghosted me after I replied back...)

[quartz aspen]

I have in my contract that I cannot subcontract my work 💔 plus security, high-profile clients (banks, telecoms) and their networks
plus it's not only about users, but about the tool itself to which we develop customisations - e.g. a bigger update broke our (my) scripts a bit. it took several tries with client to get it right because it was old script and it's pretty big. I get shit from my mentor because I said I fixed it and then something was wrong again - yet it is my mentor who always says never to modify something that works, I didn't rewrite the whole thing, duh, only patched it where I thought it was breaking (which introduced another problem, which I had to fix later...)
it's really annoying sometimes ._.

[prisma sphinx]

@quartz aspen

main tree skill-business intelligence.... that is a big key right there. business- user psychology. my wordage is off on this last one but its in that general vein of thought.

[ebon river]

how to advance in data science i am intermediate in python

i am also learning web development

[vapid jay]

привет

[ebon river]

how to share github?

[vapid jay]

how to say?

[prisma sphinx]

Personally I would start there so you have a well rounded spot to start career wise, as data scien(ce)tist is a specialty job and its own sub genre of work that intercepts 3 major fields of study. business intelligence, devops, and i forgot the other one..

Then once trained in data science, you can double specialize again in a certain field within one of the main bigger trunk-branch fields, you can even future cross specializes in another fields.

For example in businesses intelligence data is data, but how the data is use and formatted matters.

Accounting department uses the data for well, sales. SEO/ marketing department uses the data to find out what people are buying in customer buying-habits and using such answers data for the marketing budget to focus on.

[ebon river]

eh, can you explain me what devops is??

[onyx plover]

isn't data science, automated statistics?

[prisma sphinx]

If I can find such a person as skilled as this. I need to pay fewer people in my company. but the salary would be higher.
I also personally see data scientist not running out of work anytime soon because of how versatile the skill set is.

[onyx plover]

@prisma sphinx You own a company?

[prisma sphinx]

It can be, also can do other things as well, depending on the main branch field it is on the demographic, and the skill of the person.
Data science is a wide field of study in my point of view, its how it is applied that matters and differentiates in a meaningful way.

[prisma sphinx]

At moment, no. I am not a legal registered company, yeah, although I am trying to start up, I am looking for talent and potential future employees.
I am here to look into more of the topic of python myself. its usefull.

[prisma sphinx]

"A DevOps engineer introduces processes, tools, and methodologies to balance needs throughout the software development life cycle, from coding and deployment, to maintenance and updates. Development teams and IT operations teams can have different skills and different goals."
https://www.simplilearn.com/devops-engineer-salary-roles-and-responsibilities-article
A devOps from what is the more involved role that is beyond a web developer creation mindset cycle, a higher tier if you would. A DevOps skills can overlap with other skills and job roles.
I have seen veterans be both a web developer and a DevOps in software deployment/ software maintainer.

DevOps responsibility has changed over the last 10 years with docker/kuberneties, but the ideal is still the same.

[trim ether]

anyone know what career path is the components of a computer in like working and engineering with thing like cpu gpu ram etc etc

[crude crown]

That's fully into Electrical and Computer Engineering territory.

[trim ether]

ok ty

[crude crown]

you'll want to have a degree on Electrical Engineering for that kind of work. Depending on how "low level" and specialized work you want to do, more specialized degrees (e.g. MSc or PhD) would be a benefit.

[trim ether]

ok ty

[formal hemlock]

is engineering difficult

[dry raven]

hello

[elder isle]

This question is so subjective that any answer is not going to he helpful. Can you be more specific about what you want to know?

[ocean ledge]

not really

[vapid jay]

anyone here tried to transition from ip networking to devops?

[bronze dock]

Hey @summer roost, Just wanted to follow up from this old conversation (sorry for ping :] ). I ended up not using the whiteboard and checked off the checklist on my fingers. I couldn't find a way to make it look not tacky on my screen. I just accepted an offer at a different place but using the 4 points I had laid out a few weeks ago. I want to thank you for giving me some tips on interviewing!

[summer roost]

Awesome! We pretty much never get follow ups about how things went for people. I'm glad to hear you found something good!

[sudden quartz]

False. Social media adds to why they hire you, this is truth. They want to hire cool people and make a community of cool people.

[sudden quartz]

Its business and management based software development. Specifically focused on integrating a software into a workflow, and such things.

[mortal wedge]

Compared to what? I'd say yes. But compared to being a brain surgeon? Probably not. Compared to flipping burgers? Yup yup.

[sudden quartz]

On the contrary, engineering can very well be harder than brain surgery. Idk where you get that notion

[hearty island]

I'm just curious.. what are your qualifications to say what big companies want?

[sudden quartz]

Someone that had done research on who they hire and know people who have been hired at FAANG

[mortal wedge]

I think it's important to have the distinction as to whether or not linkedin counts as social media.

Because companies definitely use/check linkedin.
Idk for like facebook or w/e.

I got invited to participate in the hiring process for a large company, and the day before 12 people at that company browsed my linkedin

As far as other social media like facebook and instagram... if it's a professional social media and your job is related to branding I can see that it's relevant. Otherwise I think it's fine just to avoid red flags like idk something really racist and offensive on your facebook would definitely turn me off from hiring you.

Maybe other people may be more lenient with that sort of thing but that sort of person isn't someone I want anywhere near my team.

[sudden quartz]

FAANG employees, especially Google, typically have very good looking social medias (not just linkedIn). its common sense, I have read articles that directly stated they want to find cool people to work with. When it comes down to it social media being part of the decision process in obvious. Google is a brand and employees are hired to fit that brand

[summer roost]

Can you cite that research? None of the Googlers I know are particularly cool.

[mortal wedge]

I am not a hiring manager at FAANG, but this is what I can speak to personally. I made progress in the interview process at several FAANG companies. Your first step is being screened by HR and selected for an amptitude screening in the form of DSA tests. I doubt social media is considered/checked at that time because I have no social media presence outside of linkedin.

For me having a hand in the process, the only reason I would bother checking your social media is to look for red flags to find a reason you should be rejected.

[little trellis]

I’m sure it’s part of the standard background check but otherwise I doubt it matters. Has no applicability to the job and may even indicate less dedication to some weird people if your social media is super active.

[hearty island]

the purpose of the slow mode was to introduce more meaningful advice than just "they want to find cool people to work with"

[mortal wedge]

Here's some good life advice, don't put anything on your social media you wouldn't want a hiring manager or local law enforcement to see.

[little trellis]

I’d say if you’re looking for a job in programming, if a worry of yours is your social media presence you’re missing a lot more important things to think about. Probably best to just make them private anyways.

[mortal wedge]

This is a total tangent, but I live right next to one of their campuses and they have an AMAZING coffee shop on site.

[lucid vapor]

I don't have too much experience with this personally, but my dad is working to get a new job, so this is what I think from what I've seen. Frankly, recruiters want to know about you. They want to see who you are, and understand what you do. Their jobs rely on getting good people, and they likely will try to know as much about you as they can before actually knowing you.

[little trellis]

I doubt most have time for that before a phone screen. It’s opening up the potential for a lot of discrimination and lawsuits as well. A lot of resumes these days don’t even have a name attached to avoid this.

[lucid vapor]

Even if it's after, they want to know a lot about you. And if they see that your social media is a way to do that, then they will. If you don't want them to see what you post, then make it private, and if for some reason you don't want to do that, then draw their attention away using other important stuff on your profile that looks good.

[gray anvil]

To chime in on top of what frosty said: my title is devops engineer and my half of the team right now is focused on writing security rules for resource compliance checks, writing cloud formation templates, and remediating noncompliant resources. It's mainly python plus applied cloud knowledge

My sister team is doing the container stuff

A data scientist's first interaction with devops is probably in the form of building data pipelines (from scratch sometimes) and some containerization

All in all devops as a title is kinda broad

[summer roost]

It seems like you're talking about recruiters in the sense of firms that act as middlemen, finding talent for a company in exchange for a commission - right? Because that's that's an entirely different group of people, with different motivations, than HR departments or hiring managers at companies.

A hiring manager at Google has no reason to care whether you're "cool", only whether you'll improve the team or bring needed skills - in a nutshell, whether hiring you would be a good use of the company's money.

A recruiter that contracts with Google might have more of a reason to personally invest in you, because they get paid based on you getting hired - and if they get you hired multiple times at multiple places, that's more money in their pocket.

[lucid vapor]

Yes, I'm talking about recruiters, not HR. All I'm saying is that it does matter.

[summer roost]

potentially - but to an entirely different group of people than greenreligion was talking about. Hiring managers are concerned with whether or not it's in the company's best interest to buy your time. Recruiters are concerned with whether they can sell you to a company - and the more times they can, the better, so it's in their best interest to try to form a relationship so that the next time you're job hunting you go back to them.

[shadow moss]

Recruiters might check your social media, as someone who screens/interviews candidate from technical point of view, we never look past LinkedIn, the company doesn't want us doing so for discrimination reason, I'm American, other countries may do differently. Background checkers will probably check your social media for red flags because their only report is straight up or down on background check.

[little trellis]

This exactly. It can turn into a big problem

[shadow moss]

yea, as anti discrimination measure, our recruiters during initial process (which I'm not privy to) do not see Name/Address when filtering, and if we have to pick between a few candidates, they will sometimes anonymize the resumes as well.

[calm sail]

So stuff like facebook will be checked, but only for big red flag stuff, not to see if you're a hip cool dude?

[summer roost]

I've got a very well paying job, and don't have facebook. The extent to which social media is checked, in my experience, is only for red flags.

[little trellis]

No one cares if you look cool on social media

[calm sail]

Better delete all my flat earth theories

[shadow moss]

If it's easy enough to find, MAYBE, generally they don't go too deep. Like if your profile picture is flag of hate group, yea, they might red flag you. My recommendation would be to keep your social media private and don't care it with work people. Yes, background check people just gives 👎 or 👍 depending on criteria the company has set (which is pretty narrow these days)

[summer roost]

I very occasionally check a candidate's GitHub profile - usually only if they mention a cool project in the resume that piques my curiosity.

And I've never looked for a candidate's facebook or instagram account. I can't imagine why I ever would. Though background check firms might.

[little trellis]

All recruiters care about is LinkedIn and that’s mostly so they can find you using search criteria

[shadow moss]

and as with anything I'm saying, each company is unique, smaller company might do things more loosely but generally the bigger they are, the more likely they are to have firm procedures in attempt to remove any possibility of discrimination from hiring

[lucid vapor]

So you should always have a LinkedIn because companies check that?

[calm sail]

If you're looking into someone going for a junior developer position and they don't have a degree (maybe like just a certification) how much would you expect them to have in the way of projects and what would you expect out of those projects?

[little trellis]

If you want a lot of messages from recruiters that’s where they’ll be

[shadow moss]

I would recommend it but be as bland as possible on linked in. Make little to no posts, always positive and upbeat if you do and stay away from anything that reeks of controversy

[shadow moss]

One or two good projects but resume and such will matter more, your Github projects don't come into play until AFTER HR/Recruiters filter you out

[gray anvil]

No drama no nothing, always friendly. That said I've been getting a lot of attention from recruiters since I started this job

Got hit up by bytedance the other day, too bad I'm a boomer with no social media

[calm sail]

So what would someone who only has a cert even put on a resume for such a position?

[gray anvil]

What kind of cert?

[calm sail]

Just a python programming cert from ecornell

[summer roost]

mention the cert, mention any interesting projects you did while getting it, mention any previous work experience that you have, mention any open source or community work that you do, mention any areas that you've self-taught (or try to get more certs or bootcamps that cover those)

[gray anvil]

To demonstrate value for python jobs, as we often say, do projects that demonstrate your ability to apply your knowledge in a way that has market value

Also yeah bootcamps

[shadow moss]

Learn another language

[summer roost]

ooh, yeah, that's a good one. Knowing more languages, more frameworks, more tools - having more things that you know and can mention on the resume is very helpful. And don't lie, or list things that you tried once but don't really know. But for someone without a formal education, being a generalist who self taught many different things is helpful.

[calm sail]

Awesome, thanks for your all your time and help everyone

[shadow moss]

Few companies mainline Python, most use it a glue language or addon language, all the stuff that makes it's great language to develop for become problematic at scale, interpreting speed, dynamic typing

[vapid jay]

hey guys, any devops that came from a Ip networking enviroment? im a ccnp trying to get into devops

[summer roost]

I got a CCNA and moved into software dev - which isn't directly relevant to you, but nice work getting the CCNP 😄

[shadow moss]

I do IP Networking, you are getting replaced by software, not sure what to tell you

Between Cloud/SDN, alot of stuff is getting flattened

[summer roost]

To that end, knowledge of tools like mypy and pytest and hypothesis - tools that are used to manage and wrangle the complexity of Python at scale - are really helpful things to learn, if you're looking to break into the industry.

[little trellis]

Throw mypy and pytest/unittest along with flake8 on a ci pipeline that runs each time you push to git and you're on your way.

[summer roost]

Yeah - I almost said flake8, too, though it's so easy to use it barely counts. 🙂

[subtle heart]

Git is much more complixarsneted than Flake8,

[lucid vapor]

It is, but it's a very necessary tool. You should know how to use it.

[little trellis]

Can't really work anywhere without it. Except my first job out of college where the dev team didn't believe in it lol. If you can call them a dev team

[gray anvil]

monkeys on typewriters 😄