career-advice

[hearty island]

and then learn the data structures/algos along with big O

[blazing berry]

do you happen to know any vids relating to the extended Euclidian alg?

[hearty island]

not really

[blazing berry]

dang

[hearty island]

but I did search it up on youtube

[hearty island]

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=extended+Euclidian+alg

yeah so what is efficiency

[blazing berry]

nice thx

i gotta find this

[hearty island]

it looks like efficiency is goin g to be big O related

[sweet solstice]

is hey a formal word?

[hearty island]

https://runestone.academy/runestone/books/published/pythonds3/index.html

@primal sandal this is also good too

[summer roost]

You mean, should you use it in formal writing? No, you shouldn't.

[sick spoke]

how do i make money from coding as a beginner or at what do i need to learn in order to do something

[blazing berry]

you cant, you have to be pretty familiar with a specific languge in order to profit off of it

the closest thing you have is website design, but even then, most people wont take a beginner coder to design their website

they either a) find website templates, or b) hire somebody, but even then the template if the cheaper and safer option

[sick spoke]

oof sounds rough

guess i need to learn more

[hearty island]

apply for paid internships

[sick spoke]

okok ill try

tho finding internships itself will be a pain

[hearty island]

It usually is

[amber charm]

what helps is having a strong portfolio. Even if you contribute to open source projects, that gives you some points 😄

[primal sandal]

Thanks a lot!

[rustic dawn]

Long story short. I am working towards my goal of being an Data Scientist. I have my co-op starting in 6 months time or so. It requires me to have Python and SQL to be learnt. Can anyone suggest me a good certified course from a reputable website that I can add to my resume. (I also don't want it to cost like a tank I am student can't afford a 1000$ course over my uni fees) Also please tag once replied

[ocean ledge]

long answer short: no one I know would ever look at courses/certs/anything that isn't a portfolio or work experience on a resume, and neither should you. just google "python tutorial" or sql or whatever, and just get cracking

[rustic dawn]

Thanks uhm do you suggest w3 schools? or udemy

[ocean ledge]

sure, why not

[summer roost]

w3 schools tends to have poor materials for Python in particular. The Python they teach is unidiomatic.

[true harness]

they tend to teach java but in python

[rustic dawn]

So any good sources.

[summer roost]

!resources has much more useful stuff in it - I'd look through the materials linked there to find something that looks like it fits your learning style.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[ocean ledge]

you can also go on youtube and look how resources on how to be a data analyst

[hearty island]

SQL huh

#data-science-and-ml has a good resource on SQL pinned

[rustic dawn]

https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-to-computer-science-and-programming-7

[hearty island]

why is slow mode so high???? is anyone's slow mode like 30 seconds?

[rustic dawn]

How about this @summer roost

[summer roost]

I'm not personally familiar with the course, but the syllabus looks pretty reasonable, and MITx tends to be reputable, as far as I understand.

[hearty island]

automate the boring stuff is good if books are more your style

[rustic dawn]

I dont want to be a python god in 6 months I want to basically learn python get a certificate do my projects and kick off imo

[ocean ledge]

why a certificate?

[hearty island]

also it's pretty informal and lacks all the scholarly lofty language

[ocean ledge]

they're useless and no one looks at them, they're just money and time sinks

[hearty island]

so I would recommend automate the boring stuff w python

[rustic dawn]

Well what to add in resume then

[ocean ledge]

wtf is up with this slowmode @severe widget

[summer roost]

What's wrong with just adding "Skills: Python" to your resume? Certificates aren't very widely regarded - at least, not for most jobs. Having a certificate isn't any better than self-teaching it, in general.

[hearty island]

#community-meta message

[rustic dawn]

Hmm. That 100 true screw certification. I just need to find course atleast I can add that to resume learning pything with this course

[summer roost]

well, all I can tell you is that, as someone who has done lots of resume reviews for junior hires, I have never once cared about a certification they listed.

[rustic dawn]

https://www.datacamp.com/courses/intro-to-python-for-data-science is datacamp good

[hearty island]

datacamp is mostly just filling in segments of code

very hand holding

[ocean ledge]

agreed

[digital fjord]

There are certifications people look at, such as the cisco networking certs and some official ones from cloud providers, even if only due to client requirements, but I am not aware of any python ones.

[summer roost]

This may also be a regional thing. That's the case for employers in the US. It may be different in other countries.

[rustic dawn]

I am in Canada

[ocean ledge]

yeah that's basically the US

[hearty island]

US

[summer roost]

Yeah, I almost said that, but I didn't want to get dragged down into the weeds. But it's a good point.

[rustic dawn]

https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-to-computer-science-and-programming-7 I am just gonna start this as a course but start learning using books and stuff before that what do you say Godlygeek?

[ocean ledge]

remember kids, the only things that matter on your resume is your degree and your portfolio/prev work experience

[summer roost]

I think you should just start learning, using whatever resources you find useful. That seems like as good a starting point as any.

[rustic dawn]

Gonna add it to my resume XD. For the sake of it.

[primal sandal]

Anyone from India here? I'm in grade 10, and I'm looking for an internship

[hearty island]

you can get an internship when you're a soph?

[sudden quartz]

you can get an internship in Highschool

[sudden quartz]

Imagine having extracurriculars to add and thinking they make a difference

Seriously to get hired as a Google intern you need an active social media with your pictures all over it

[peak halo]

When it comes to topics as consequential as careers, bad advice can be very damaging and is often worse than no advice at all. Our moderator team can't confirm the quality of advice given in this channel, but we can ask that everyone who gives advice here explain what experiences they have that inform it. That can include their location, education, and jobs they've worked.

Well-qualified advice might look like this: "As someone who conducts interviews at a web services company in the US, I look for x in a resume", or "I'm a CS student in Singapore, and I got an internship after doing y".

In order to encourage more thoughtful, qualified, and on-topic dialogue, we've set a relatively high slowmode timer for this channel.

[peak halo]

If you have any comments or questions about this policy, let us know in #community-meta.

[primal sandal]

I tried googling, and I didn't find any internships for high school students, the minimum requirement is to be a college freshman

[hearty island]

That was my experience too when I was in high school in the US

[sudden quartz]

once you hit college you can get formal internships yep but in high school connections will at least get you job shadowing

[ocean ledge]

uh, excuse me, what are your credentials for saying such a career-oriented statement?

[hearty island]

are you talking to me or bluescience

[ocean ledge]

your advice isn't as of yet, well-qualified

[hearty island]

I am a proud recipient of a Textron internship that I have to turn down

[ocean ledge]

this is all for encouraging more thoughtful, qualified, and on-topic dialogue

[supple warren]

ouch

[hearty island]

I apologize as I am an inferior college student

[peak halo]

@ocean ledge We're trying to preserve this channel. If you're not going to take it seriously, you are not required to participate.

[proud shore]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[main thicket]

Yay, strong moderation action for once. Thank you! Give my experience in data science specifically, I would avoid spending money on certificates too (no one cares for them), and am gonna suggest http://progdisc.club/resources for SQL and ML resources

[sudden quartz]

apparently a message got deleted? did someone as for data science resources?

For Data Science credentials get a degree in statistics. the "cs side" is pretty easy. Im a CS student in America with a lot of math knowledge and career/job insight

[hearty island]

yeah I agree with this

you don't necessarily need a stats degree but you should have some decent stats knowledge speaking as someone who is enrolled in the analytics of business

[ocean ledge]

any math-based stem degree is pretty good to get, speaking as someone who works with the data and the science

[supple warren]

what skills does data science utilize? i hear a lot of people talk about it and it sounds cool

[sudden quartz]

Statistics. Statistics. Excel sheets. Statistics. Mabye some python

[ocean ledge]

on a daily basis? lots of sql

[hearty island]

sql is great and it's not too hard to learn either

[ocean ledge]

on occasion you can try some fun things

[supple warren]

isn’t sql a db

[sudden quartz]

except when you get into nested queries

[near ocean]

My data science friends used to do python and R way more than sql in postgrad school for some reason

Sql is a query language, youre probably thinking of sqlite

[main thicket]

Data science is really vague and can involve a lot of SQL or no SQL, a lot of maths or no maths, etc

[ocean ledge]

also, a huge % of people with the title "data scientist" are really "data analysts"

[main thicket]

Since it became a buzzword it means anything from "business data analyst" to "applied machine learning scientist" to "software engineer for ML products" to "data engineer"

You just have to read the job listings really carefully to figure out what they want and make sure it's what you want to do

[leaden jasper]

Reminds me of some of the prior funding cycles where everyone would try to stick in "machine learning" somewhere because it meant you had a better chance of getting funded. It's vague and can encompass a whole lot.

[main thicket]

Sticking ML on grant applications is fair game, at least it describes a general approach. But applied machine learning scientist and data engineer are worlds apart

[sudden quartz]

Data Engineer... is web scraping with selenium level

[main thicket]

What?

[sudden quartz]

How did you get an internship at Microsoft

[ocean ledge]

no

[main thicket]

I applied, gave the interview and passed the interview

[sudden quartz]

you got accepted in MS program first

[main thicket]

Hm? No, I applied for my master's while I was at Microsoft. I rejected their grad offer and then signed only master's

[hearty island]

[sudden quartz]

so you got it post BS degree? I am thinking of double majoring in maths

[ashen elk]

I wish there might be some high school internships for bigger tech companies 😦

[carmine rock]

to do well in university computer science, is background knowledge needed or can I do well without any proir knowledge in programming?

[ashen elk]

99.9% of them require you to be pursuing a bachelors atleast

[ocean ledge]

just quit the cs part and focus on math, it's cooler

[ashen elk]

would any of you happen to know if some huge corp. takes ML/DS high school interns?

[main thicket]

No, I got it in the 3rd year of my undergrad

[main thicket]

The vast majority of CS undergrads start with no knowledge of programming

[sudden quartz]

stats for that? the ones that do well certainly have experience, and the others drop out and change major

[main thicket]

Essentially none take high school interns in general much less in ML given almost no high schooler knows appreciable amounts of ML

[ashen elk]

does a high-school internship in a AI startup look good on a CV? like if you add stuff similar to working under a team, collaborating and helping the company move forward - stuff like that

[ashen elk]

they can still get them to do some pretty basic menial tasks

[sudden quartz]

You absolutely need to have programming experience, or you need to manage your class load VERY carefully.

[ocean ledge]

eh, not really-- introductory programming isn't very difficult, and wouldn't present too much strain to a well-adjusted student

[hearty island]

uh all the kids in my school who didn't know how to code when they first entered the program have switched out by now

[ashen elk]

but they teach with the basics, right?

[hearty island]

very fast-paced

[sudden quartz]

It depends on the program, but some have data structures and algs in second semester after only one CS course

[leaden jasper]

I think this varies greatly person to person. In my experience in undergrad you absolutely don't need prior programming experience to do well. It certainly helps, but you'll be fine without the prior experience for undergrad.

[ashen elk]

well, you can't do lists and stings forever

[main thicket]

The idea you need to do programming before uni to survive CS is ridiculous. Basically every CS major starts off with intro programming from scratch, and the vast majority of their early subjects tend to not require much (especially given first couple years are filled with geneds and intro maths and stuff)

[hearty island]

dictionaries 🥴

[ocean ledge]

tbf, many functional programming languages will beg to differ

[ashen elk]

so you are saying those that dropped out are idiots?
fits tbh

[hearty island]

well I'm saying that's my experience

[sudden quartz]

CS is the major with the highest dropout/major change rate

[main thicket]

Stats??

[ashen elk]

they all come thinking its easy 💰

[leaden jasper]

I think that varies per college. I'd be curious to see where you're pulling that info from.;

[main thicket]

This is extemely dependent on university

[leaden jasper]

At my undergrad the highest major dropout rate was Electrical Engineering, not CS.

[ashen elk]

well, its not like people can learn a lot from a few semesters in college

[ocean ledge]

you'd be surprised

[main thicket]

I mean, ML internships going to first year students is also extremely rare

[hearty island]

I have yet to see a ML internship with minimal requirements

[main thicket]

It's generally 3rd years, maybe some smart 2nd years, that do ML internships. After they've done all their required maths courses and have self learnt some ML

[ocean ledge]

yeah, because the job isn't minimal

[hearty island]

they expect you to know your stuff

[ashen elk]

I got some ML internship in an AI startup. and they knew I was a high-schooler

[ocean ledge]

most of the interns we have doing ML work are PhD interns

[hearty island]

Congrats. Do you want a cookie?

[leaden jasper]

What region is this in?

[ocean ledge]

lmfao

[main thicket]

It's a startup, they generally have low requirements and not many people applying for anything. And if I remember correctly, you emailed them about it

[leaden jasper]

There's no reason to be aggressive and dismissive.

[hearty island]

startups have generally lower requirements so they can net the most employees possible

[sudden quartz]

Coming at it college by college perspective is extremely bias. This study was conducted by higher-education statistics agency. Computing is very general but CS is the hardest "computing" major

[ashen elk]

I disagree with your whole argument. I guess there might be some minimal requirements, but if the company does need a HS guy, they have all the right to recruit one

[leaden jasper]

Do you have a link to that study?

[ocean ledge]

anyway, requirements vary from company to company-- for example we have an entire "you don't need a degree to apply for this position", but in practice all of our applicants for data roles have a MS or higher

[sudden quartz]

its all over google tbh just google it

[ashen elk]

yea. it was related to audio - can't tell much more. but they hinted I have to compete against their baseline model

[hearty island]

I'll repeat it. Startups do not speak for every company.

[sudden quartz]

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/which-universities-have-the-highest-first-year-dropout-rates

[hearty island]

you are much more likely to work for a start up as a high schooler than a big company

[ashen elk]

ikr

[main thicket]

Highest dropout rates are also meaningless and not really representative of difficulty. By measure of dropout rates, hospitality is harder than science & maths. And engineering is grouped with studies in manufacturing and construction?? Nothing alike

[rocky slate]

is anyone here at UT Austin rn? Need some help.

[sudden quartz]

check link before critque

[leaden jasper]

So you're looking at UK stats?

[main thicket]

I did?

[ocean ledge]

for example, math is subjectively a significantly harder major-- however people who take that major tend to be self-selecting

[sudden quartz]

math is not harder than CS

[ashen elk]

I would def say it is

[main thicket]

Yep, these statistics are more convincing that a lot of people entering CS are less capable or don't realise they don't like CS

At the other end of the spectrum, those studying medicine (including veterinary and dental studies) make up the smallest proportion of dropouts – just 1.2 per cent

[ocean ledge]

take harder classes

[sudden quartz]

We can discuss more in offtopic channel but CS classes have much harder assignments

[ashen elk]

are you comparing your school math to CS? lol

[leaden jasper]

That is a matter of opinion and not at all fact. To present it as fact is not really appropriate.

[hearty island]

ok boys and girls what ot channel are we jumping to discuss this

[main thicket]

ot1 leggo

[hearty island]

ok sounds good

[upbeat imp]

hey, quick question - I am looking at hackerrank for the first time. has anyone done this stuff?

because the "hard" questions appear to be variations of "write a regex" which is hardly spooky magic or something and I'm a bit... stunned

do they get more difficult? are the more difficult questions hiding somewhere that's not in the "practice" section?

[true harness]

many people have, and i'm pretty sure most of them are not regex problems

[upbeat imp]

okay. I mean, there were only three questions labeled hard, and the two I looked at were literally both regex problems - I haven't checked the third but I will

okay, just two of the three. (the other is a math-related thing)

[lofty sapphire]

Could anyone advise.. is learning "fullstack" an ideal quick path into IT? Would anyone have other suggestions, or rough estimates on months required before being hirable?

[stoic tulip]

anyone hiring at taco bell?

San Jose, CA is where i'm at

[true harness]

perhaps you would have better luck in a taco bell discord

[hearty island]

Do they exist

[stoic tulip]

Just found it

[true harness]

right, that would be a much better place than this

[obtuse anchor]

I have been trying to learn python since 2019. i am a grad student at. the moment. I took a java class during college but i found it tough. i got a c .
I have been trying to learn python since 2019. Self learning but not much of consistent learning. I dont see myself putting too much work on it but i really want to learn. just wanted to see if anyone could help me get through this?

[vapid jay]

if fail:
    learn()

[vapid jay]

i like your dedication, you learn by doing some assignments

not the easy ones from internet, how about you try to make a program that will detect the language of a given text

[obtuse anchor]

if fail==sad: hope = 1**0 print("hope"). output : hope = -1

[vapid jay]

how would you even do such a thing,
oe way could be to make trigrams and measure cosine similarity

try to code it up, you will learn a lot

[summer roost]

!resources has some good learning materials

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[wooden burrow]

I need to translate the scanned documents from one to another language using python coding .
all suggestions are welcome !

[carmine hatch]

k dudes im a high schooler tryna be a teacher or professor for cs. i wanna know if it's better than the alternative which is to work for some company some place

[vapid jay]

the irony is, the greatest hero in myth Achilles

loved greek

if you know waat i mean

i thought this was general

[toxic obsidian]

What would you say is the best lenguage or skill set to go for to get a job without any experience??
In web development department

[toxic obsidian]

Frontend

[ashen elk]

you can't do that with pure python alone

[wooden burrow]

I know c

[wooden burrow]

Will that work ?

[ashen elk]

what will? C?
nope

[wooden burrow]

Then ?

[ashen elk]

you would have to use libs like tensorflow and keras to build a ML model
but that requires in-depth knowledge of AI

[wooden burrow]

👍

[ashen elk]

someone please automate this shitty slowmode

[swift veldt]

Slowmode is great.

[marsh wind]

huh, slowmode in careers? interesting 🙂 did not feel like a channel that is getting overwhelmed

[swift veldt]

I think it's more like there's been some spam and recruiters lately, and a drama iirc a few days ago. Slowmode might hinder some of that.

[true harness]

documented in #changelog

[swift veldt]

gotcha 👍

[vapid jay]

@swift veldt luv u

amazing person, be safe.

[copper spire]

The IT degree at my university has no math units in them, however it has a major in software development which I am passionate about. On the other hand, the CS degree at the same faculty is very math-focused but has no software engineering majors/specialization. If I want to become a software engineer as my career, which one would look more appealing to employers?

[hearty island]

here's my hot take: it doesn't really matter. I'm a student in college and I know people who graduated in IT and are doing SWE positions at big companies. I also know CS people who also graduated and are doing SWE positions at big companies.

there were even people who were doing MIS and they now do SWE 🥴

[near ocean]

I think its safer to go with the CS degree tho it would really only matter for your internship and/or first job
Most job ads i've seen have very general wording like, software engineering degree, it-related degree, etc

[copper spire]

Right but it doesn't have a software development major

[hearty island]

the college doesn't have one?

it's not that big of a deal my college didn't have one either

[near ocean]

Mine didnt either, software development was a module in the CS course

[hearty island]

my college has a cybersecurity specification for a bachelor's degree but I fail to see what specifically they offer for cybersecurity. it just seems like standard courses

anyways idk why I care

[delicate bane]

as someone who double-majored in college, i recommend pursuing what youre passionate about as youre more likely to 1) do well in those classes and 2) get more out of them. like the others have said, most companies arent too particular about either major when it comes to such a role when starting out. sometimes, its more about what you have on your portfolio/resume.

[copper spire]

makes sense, however I'm passionate in both, they're both IT related disciplines with a lot of overlapping contents. I don't mind doing either one

[digital fjord]

you may want to ask current students/teachers, one branch may get better teachers or there may be some other nuance you may have missed

[delicate bane]

welllllll, if you are coming in with extra credits or dont mind doing summer/winter classes (hopefully, your uni offers them), have you considered double-majoring if youre truly passionate about both?

[shadow moss]

If you are in the US, if this going to rack up debt, I wouldn’t recommend this. The payoff won’t likely be worth it.

[thick python]

Overcome ur laziness

[delicate bane]

thats fair. if youre in the EU, its much more affordable

[thick python]

I am also starting I tried earlier but I gave up like u

[sand patio]

Hi

[ocean ledge]

software engineering degrees are irrelevant, just get good at something you like and code on the side, and you'll be fine

[hearty island]

according to your professional experience?

[ocean ledge]

yes, according to my well-qualified experience

[hearty island]

seems legit

[ocean ledge]

this is all for creating better discourse @hearty island

[hearty island]

yes indeed

all jokes aside I actually do agree with pastafish

[true harness]

according to your professional experience?

[hearty island]

indeed

most of the software dev internships I've seen don't really require much and anyone who has a working knowledge of DS/algos + fundamentals + projects can take those internships

[true harness]

what about full time jobs though, not just internships

[copper spire]

Some people have a natural aptitude for coding, it really comes down to whether or not you can think like a programmer. If you really want to learn then simply practice. Focus on one language, in this case Python and learn the basics of it. You don't need to know about OOP or other advanced topics, it's whether or not you can apply the base knowledge you know in practice. Search up online exercise for Python, do them and if you get them wrong, stop, evaluate and understand why you got them wrong. That's how I learned Python myself, I simply applied everything I learned the moment I come across it.

[hearty island]

not so sure about that bc I don't have the experience to speak for that

OOP is not an advanced topic 🥴

[copper spire]

Well I like both and I feel like I could take either degrees just the same. For me, it depends on the career outcome to make the decision

[hearty island]

you just need a good guide or something you can learn from

[true harness]

it certainly can be, small teaching examples don't really scale well to real world applications. it takes a lot of experience to design well

[digital fjord]

there are whole books written about OOP design and most of them are insufficient alone

[hearty island]

sorry I'm going to re clarify

the basics of OOP is not a very advanced topic

[true harness]

well, the basics of anything are not advanced, sorta by definition

[hearty island]

it helps to take breaks

don't code for 6 hours straight bc chances are you won't retain most of the information

this is backed by Ebbinghaus's forgetting curve: https://www.psychestudy.com/cognitive/memory/ebbinghaus-forgetting-curve

[leaden jasper]

I would take a look at the reviews and professors like lak suggested. For the initial entry level job I would say it doesn't matter a whole lot which specific degree is on your resume. If you know the basics of DSA and have good projects/internships you'll be fine. The degree really doesn't matter a whole lot after you get your first job. But my experience is most in the engineering fields, not CS. This is mostly what I hear talking to my software dev friends who do recruitment and what I experienced with me trialing a potential CS career path in undergrad.

[hearty island]

I haven't seen the ebbinghaus curve in relation to retention over hours but I'm assuming it's not that great either

[leaden jasper]

hmmmm, but doesn't the ebbinghaus curve suggest that if you overlearn it reduces the effects of the "forgetting curve"?

[hearty island]

not so sure I only have surface level knowledge from AP psych

[cobalt lark]

I mean, this is just an average

Some people will forget way more earlier than others

[leaden jasper]

Hmmm, okay. I wouldn't say that "don't code for 6 hours" is necessarily backed by that then.

[cobalt lark]

Besides, are you really learning when doing casual coding?

[digital fjord]

6 hours of coding is still a lot of practice. Obviously you won't be a master programmer after a 6 hour session, but it helps

[hearty island]

I code for 6 hours a day 🤡

[digital fjord]

yeah, it is quite reasonable, especially when you are young and have the time to do that.

[hearty island]

what's casual coding?

[neat grove]

!slowmode set 60s We'll be playing around with the slowmode a bit to see what works.

[inner wren]

✅ The slowmode delay for #career-advice is now 1 minute.

[cobalt lark]

If you are just chillin' out, doing a bit of programming without getting out of your comfort zone you aren't gonna learn a lot of new things (not saying that is any bad, it is pretty important to master a certain topic before moving on) versus doing something totally new in a totally different language, you have way more to learn.

[hearty island]

oh well I am learning ds/algos now I guess that's out of my comfort zone

it would be more applicable if I got really good at leetcode questions and constantly kept doing leetcode questions without any projects or learning anything new

[neat grove]

Regarding getting a degree, you may be able to get your first job without a degree, but it will often require a considerable portfolio. For most people getting a degree is a perfectly legitimate way to boost their careers, and some workplaces will want you to have a degree depending on the field you're going for.

If you managed to get a job without a degree, good for you, but saying blanket statements such as that a software engineering degree is irrelevent is just unnecessary and untrue.

[digital fjord]

practice is still incredibly important. There is a major difference between someone who constantly tries new things and a person who just writes python CRUDs 8 hours a day for a decade.
Both of those are extremes, but arguably the person who only writes python CRUDs 8 hours a day will be much more effective when creating one than the jack of all trades, even if in the end they would have the same result.
It is very easy to lose motivation in a project if its going slowly due to lack of practice and constantly googling the same things. Which is not to say that its a bad thing, especially when learning, but it is quite inefficient.

[hearty island]

what's a CRUD? oh ok I see nvm

[ocean ledge]

a software engineering degree IS irrelevant, as long as your degree is stem based-- in which case employers won't care too much

[ashen elk]

programming is just logic 🤷 the "natural aptitude" you mention is indeed something for especially gifted people, but in essence - again, coding is logic. I wouldn't say there is some specific "think like a programmer" mindset - it's just a way of you categorizing people that may be able to think more out-of-the-box than you. and that's not an actual genuine issue - just complaining on your part

[ocean ledge]

reading the surrounding context is helpful-- also this slowdown is idiotic, par pro cursu mods

[near ocean]

A software degree isnt irrelevant, i very much doubt a random stem degree eg biotech, could land a dev role only using the degree

[ashen elk]

I don't have hard expereince, but I have heard a lot of youtubers in STEM who have hopped on to software, so I think your point may not be correct

[near ocean]

Some random youtuber that may have made it work is the exception to the rule, not the rule

[hearty island]

@ashen elk yeah it’s all fun and games until you have trouble with coding and someone tells you “programming is just logic”

[ocean ledge]

especially in data science, a vast majority of the data scientists i know do not have "software engineering" degrees-- cs degrees are common though

[ashen elk]

are you refuting my point that programming is logic?

[hearty island]

@ashen elk I’m saying it’s very easy to say until you have an issue with coding, you ask for help, and then someone just says “programming is just logic”

[ocean ledge]

i'm also certain its a new major-- seriously, fk this slowdown, all its doing is ruining discourse

[near ocean]

This is getting old, if you dont like it go to modmail

[ashen elk]

well, then in that case that person is not serious about putting in work from his side and is just being lazy instead of researching.
"programming is logic" holds true whatever problem you might have. its a fact. it may not necessarily help someone, but then why would you even reply someone's problem with "programming is logic"

[hearty island]

If I told you recursion is programming which is just logic when you asked for an explanation, how would you feel?

[true harness]

the idea is that you are pushed towards writing longer more thought out answers rather than short snippets

[ashen elk]

I would simply ask you to explain the underlying logic in recursion. I don't see the problem here or the point you are trying to make.

[hearty island]

I don’t think you should be calling people lazy either

[neat grove]

!mute 536320349516857366 2d You seem to be adamant on spreading misinformation and myths. As you were told already, if you don't want to take seriously the policies we put in place to get this channel back on track and be an informative space, you don't have to participate, but your current behavior isn't acceptable.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @ocean ledge until 2021-03-31 18:21 (1 day and 23 hours).

[ashen elk]

Please read my above post properly and decide whether I mean it as an aggresive way or not

[hearty island]

I don’t think you call people lazy and then just say it wasn’t meant aggressively. There’s no way to call someone lazy and not have a negative connotation.

[ashen elk]

you are diverting from the main argument here

[true harness]

awesome_ruler is saying that there is no intrinsic quality that prevents someone from coding. he's just saying that all coding requires is logical thinking, that there isn't a huge barrier to get into programming. he's not asserting that all problems should be dealt with by saying "just think about it", he's talking about careers in general

[hearty island]

I’m not diverting from the main argument. He calls people lazy when it’s not even his argument to make. Whatever, I've had enough.

[ashen elk]

if you do not want to try to argue with actual facts and arguments and insist that I meant it in a derogatory way, then I would apologize for that and ask you to argue next time with logical points rather than just bein disruptive to a discourse.
Thank you for your time

[hearty island]

I would ask that you argue more concretely instead of just assuming people are lazy as you said here: "well, then in that case that person is not serious about putting in work from his side and is just being lazy instead of researching."

[ashen elk]

alright, then may I know what your argument was for refuting my point "programming is logic" apart from me calling people lazy?

[near ocean]

If people dont wanna put in the hours to enhance their skillset doesn't that make them lazy by definition?

[ashen elk]

I would also group not researching enough about the question they ask in there too

[digital fjord]

at the same time, there are things which you have no chance at understanding by just specifically learning them, since they require prequisite knowledge and mental shortcuts you may not have.

[worn sun]

Agree!!! for jobs like cybersecurity in major corporations, they will require a degree. But to work at a start-up, you can definitely get away with not having a degree for NOW. But I predict that in 3 - 5 years degrees will be much more valuable than they are today. There will be a lot more competition because there will be more opportunities and courses for people to take to learn how to program. I think programming could end up being like getting into sales... sure you don't need a degree but if you want to work for big companies in sales, the degree even MBA will give you a leg up, mainly because everybody has a masters nowadays (in the world of Business and Finance). It will all depend on competition... the law of supply and demand at work. Look at what has happened to doctors - twenty years ago you could be a millionaire, now doctors make $200k - $350k a year because the competition increased.

[little reef]

anyone know of any places that allow on the job training, or a place to find these organizations.

please @ me]

[merry sphinx]

HAA

[stoic sierra]

hello

can anyone tell me is python worth it?

[shadow moss]

What do you mean by "worth it?" Is it a good language to learn? Yes. Is it only language you need to know? No. I recommend if you want to be Software Developer that you learn (Java or Kotlin) or C# or (Javascript or Typescript)

[stoic sierra]

I mean there are a bunch of languages actually. So why anyone should choose python specifically for?

[digital fjord]

it is really pleasant to learn and can be used to try out a wide variety of fields and get enough information to make a decision on whether you like the field and learn languages better suited to that field. It is hard to decide what you want to do when you know nothing

[shadow moss]

Python is used as primary language in Data Science/Data Engineer, SREs and others, it's mainly used as glue language to bind things together. However, it's used as primary language in limited capacity elsewhere

[tender thicket]

There are also many high profile companies using python as their core backend. Some that immediately come to mind are reddit and dropbox.

[stoic sierra]

Actually I am sorry for asking directly from nowhere. Let me explain my purpose first. Basically I just wanted a language with which I can do some competitive things and also do some other stuffs which can get me a job in future. So long time ago I chosen python and just started the basics. But apparently I got so much demotivated from my surroundings. Some says Without C++ there's no meaning of Competitive. Some says python is just like a shortcut decision I have been made. even my school have C in syllabus. So I'm just looking for a reason why I should still consider Python. :)

[leaden jasper]

My best friend who's a senior dev says they primarily use Python for testing and, like Rabbit said, glueing different systems and pipelines together. It's not his primary language, but it's a crucial one in his toolkit.

[stuck helm]

wait so a cs/software engineering/STEM degree is important to work as a dev in senior positions?

[stuck helm]

When you say JavaScript or TypeScript, are you referring to these being used in node and React/Angular/Vue?

[digital fjord]

competetive programming is indeed very C++ focused. If all you want to do is that, then C++ is likely to correct choice.
But python knowledge will transfer over to C++ as well, and as I already said, due to how vast the python ecosystem is, you can do pretty much any part of the tech world (except low level programming, you need C for that).
Python is indeed a shortcut to learning programming quickly, but that isn't a bad thing. Don't worry about learning programming "properly" and other such nonsense. Python is a perfectly fine way to learn programming and do just about anything.
For any specific things, there is likely to be a language that is better suited, but python lets you do everything well enough that you can try it out and see if you like it and want to focus on that area more.

[shadow moss]

And both of those has sprinkled in a ton of additional languages. Dropbox in particular has rewritten a ton into Rust https://dropbox.tech/infrastructure/rewriting-the-heart-of-our-sync-engine

[digital fjord]

at some scale, keeping to a single specific technology is unlikely to work. But it is true that at really large scales, python may be somewhat of a constraint, though that doesn't discount its other merits for smaller applications.

[stoic sierra]

So I can just keep practicing with Python and then switch to C++ in future? :)

[shadow moss]

Basically yes, Node/JS Frontend have a ton of issues but they are crazy popular and performance has really picked up

[digital fjord]

Indeed, that is a reasonable path to take. Though I wouldn't say switch, more like add C++ to your toolset. Programming languages are tools, and the questions should I learn about screwdrivers or hammers is quite silly.

[shadow moss]

Why C++, C++ is mainly used for systems work or stuff where Speed > All (Which isn't as much as you think) and Rust has started to eat away at that market. Most companies use more general purpose languages like Java/Kotlin or C#. Node also shows up but that's just do availability of developers and desire to single language code base.

[digital fjord]

They have an interest in competitive programming, so C++ is very much the best choice for that

[shadow moss]

Ahh, I mean, you could go with Rust as well, speed is very similar according to benchmarks

[digital fjord]

I do not know that much about competetive programming, but I doubt features of Rust will be of any meaningful help there. That is an area where writing highly unsafe semi broken code gets you the W if it works specifically for the input domain. And well, most resources about the field will also be assuming C++

[stoic sierra]

And don't get me wrong. Actually I don't know if it's stupid to ask but still asking. As a child when other kids dreamed about flying through space meeting Santa I used to dream myself on a FAANG company. Mainly Google, so which skills I actually need to go there. Not meaning It's my only purpose of learning to code. but still u can consider it as a Big Kid dream :3

[digital fjord]

There are no stupid questions, though I am unqualified to answer that question

[shadow moss]

FAANG can be decent places to work but many people want to. I wouldn't get hyperfocused on FAANG. You may not like working there, you may not get hired and there is wide world of tech outside FAANG.

[stoic sierra]

Still means a lot. Thanks @shadow moss @digital fjord

[marsh wind]

I would say also you need to define well what you mean under "competitive"... because one thing is trying to learn language that can be used in competitions and other things is learn stuff that will get you to FANG level companies. While the former can help with the latter it is not required by any means: Go was created and is widely used, Rust gets his way in big app ( discord and dropbox are some very prominent examples).

[near ocean]

Why do you use language like "switch to c++", are you going to abandon python once you learn enough? People can learn/maintain knowledge about more than 1 thing at the same time

And you certainly dont need to wait until you have a solid grasp of python to start learning other technologies

[digital fjord]

probably since terms like C++ programmer and python programmer are so ubiquitous, and the impression is that people have to pick a single label for themselves. Which is obviously not quite right.

[true harness]

the speed is there but many platforms simply don't offer rust as an option

[ashen elk]

Just curious, why google?

[little trellis]

Focus on going where you can provide the most value. The more value you are providing, the better you will feel about your career and the further you will go. You will most likely find that you're not actually able to meet your full potential at a FAANG company.

[tender thicket]

Right, python and rust tend to pair in many situations because they tend to complement each other. Python for ease of development and flexibility, and rust once you've got your core api down and want the reassurance of stability and security and efficiency many other languages stumble to provide.

[little trellis]

Do you code in Rust regularly @tender thicket?

[tender thicket]

I do. My personal blog uses a custom rust engine to serve static pages generated by python. I find the pairing to be very advantageous from both sides. Rust, for the speed and security when engaging with the general mess of the public internet, as well as for the cryptography involved in TLS and certificates, port binding, etc. I use actix for the web engine part, which is speedwise on par or higher than nginx, and provides me the ability for lots of web functionality that otherwise is difficult to implement (IE: force all lowercase endpoints, trailing slash stuff, redirect-if-close stuff).

The python part handles the generation of content from static blog data files and templates, which gives me the ability to rapidly change my templates and rendering output whenever I want, which I do frequently enough. Adding new fields, etc, which in rust would be slow and require significant complexity or compile time tradeoffs.

At my work, we settle on python because we're doing complex custom stuff on the backend in order to get the maximum bang per person-hour of work. We do not have many employees, but we do big things. Python lets us do this, and adapt to the various ecosystems we need to attach to (netlify, wordpress api's, aws, system deploys, google sheets, excel sheets, webhooks, etc) and do so in ways that reduce the amount of time each person needs to spend interacting with the code.

If we were to use rust or c++ we would not be able to do what we do

[hearty island]

@tender thicket you do all of that in high school? That’s impressive

[tender thicket]

Nah. I've got a college degree and had one when rust got started. But I was working on the python engine prior to our current one (which is a near-complete rewrite that was a long time coming) during HS that we use, and I did author several tools that are still in active use and development here at that time.

[little trellis]

Makes sense. I use Go for similar reasons and chose that since I am more cloud and concurrency focused.

[hearty island]

oh my bad I for some reason thought you were in high school

[little trellis]

Most of what I do is Python but when needed drop down to Go. Rust seems like it could be cool to learn.

[vapid jay]

what is the slowmode

[summer roost]

#changelog message

[vapid jay]

hi

what language does god code in

[sour torrent]

C

[vapid jay]

oh

[sour torrent]

So, I'm a Diploma Student from India and currently in my last Semester i.e. 6th Semester, I saw an opportunity for a Flask and Backend Developer Intern Online in a Startup and the Startup is pretty well-known Startup in India. I've worked on Flask and Backend for 1 year and built some projects - Website APIs with my friends. The College here is about 4 Hours but they gonna ask us to submit a good project with Tons of Written Assignments this semester, + I'm learning Machine Learning rn. should I take the Internship if my application gets selected ot should I focus on ML more? Tbh I'm loving ML and would like to continue learning

[ashen elk]

an internship never looks bad on anyone's resume - but if you are very interested in Machine Learning (and would like to get a job related to the field) then you can just take a ML degree. as regards to balancing an internship and learning ML - I would recommend you not to miss out on the internship and keep learning AI as and when you have time

[sour torrent]

The degree system, tbh whole education system is f-ed up, we don't even get to choose majors and minors for some universities, they've fixed subjects and everyone has to apply for each of subject. + I don't think rn I'll be able to manage my Internship + workload of last semester, I was thinking about getting a summer internship instead.

[ashen elk]

what kind of internship is it - general marketing or CS focused?

[sour torrent]

Flask and Backend Programming

[stable shuttle]

Hi guys, currently a med student in the UK but would eventually like to be an astronaut (long shot ik). I understand there are many applications for python and I'm a complete beginner, is there any area specifically that would be best for me to focus on?

[peak halo]

Python has a lot of libraries for scientific computing (numpy, pandas, scipy, and more), though I don't know enough about what med students or aspiring astronauts do to guess which ones would be most useful for you.

[stable shuttle]

Thanks, was just wondering if anything in particular looked good on a CV. I've had some experience using R for data processing through uni, is python better?

[peak halo]

Python has a much larger ecosystem than R, and that ecosystem includes a lot of libraries that do what R was designed specifically for. Whether that makes it "better" is a matter of what you're trying to use it for.

A famous example, the pandas library with its DataFrame class does something that just comes with R.

[stable shuttle]

Nice, just don't see why my degree (and a lot of other science degrees) use R over python when it seems to be more intuitive, thanks!

[eternal juniper]

Hey, I can't get any job interviews, I tried for months and didn't get anything, anyone can get a look at my CV or something idk :S

[hearty island]

Yeah just take out your name and relevant details

[stable shuttle]

@eternal juniper worth looking up a template online, your personal statement is one of the most important parts imo

[hearty island]

if it’s been 5 months w no interviews there may be a chance your resume isn’t ATS friendly

[inner wren]

Hey @eternal juniper!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[peak halo]

I believe R became popular for data manipulation before Python did. R was designed specifically for it and was created shortly after Python in the early 90s, whereas (for example) Pandas is only 13 years old. Chances are the instructors for those classes are just behind the times.

[hearty island]

At least they’re not using octave 🥴

[stable shuttle]

That would make sense, but data processing is a new addition to my course (last couple of years). Next year I need to do my science degree and I think a lot of them use it, so might explain it.

[peak halo]

The course itself might be new, but the instructors might feel more comfortable teaching R if that's what they learned.

[stable shuttle]

Good point, thanks!

[eternal juniper]

I removed my name from the cv: http://xcompanygames.com/temp/

I'm don't have any job experience just graduated and I'm doing a Data science course

[hearty island]

thanks for your service btw

[eternal juniper]

any advice? 🙂

[hearty island]

I don't think you even need skill highlights imo all the stuff stated under there is pretty much expected. It would be like putting hard-working under your skills and employers already pretty much know that

[eternal juniper]

Yeah I guess you are right about that

[hearty island]

other than that I don't really know bc I'm only in college so if anyone more experienced wants to chip in feel free

[ashen elk]

wow I didn't know "Artificial Neural Network" is a programming language

[eternal juniper]

numerous programming languages and **concepts **

just read the text man, I can't find a job in few months, I don't need any mean comments here

[stable shuttle]

I had a read, I think you should talk more about the projects, e.g what you did, your role in the team etc. Also talk about the skills and what you learned rather than skill highlights. Do this for the projects but also for the military experience etc.

[eternal juniper]

that's a good idea, I will try to do that

[ashen elk]

if you have a list where 99% are programming languages and 1 concept, then everyone will think that all of them are langs

[eternal juniper]

MySQL, Python, Artificial neural network, MATLAB, Unity game engine, MMF2 game engine
are not programming languages

[hearty island]

it seems like you did these projects in the course so to a potential viewer they may think that you don't do projects of your own volition but only based on courses

[stable shuttle]

Also don't undersell yourself, even if its a casual android game talk about the effort and time involved, how you contributed etc.

[neat grove]

!warn 738058085083381760 Please don't make condescending remarks. The resume clearly said it was listing programming languages and concepts together, but even if it weren't, you could have picked a better way to convey that.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @ashen elk.

[hearty island]

overall I think it's a pretty solid resume. What MaNameIsJack said is some pretty good advice.

[eternal juniper]

that odd I will try to read and think about that, that's a critical point
"MaNameIsJack" - I think that's also a good idea
all of my games are solo projects, I will try to say that as well

[hearty island]

what roles are you applying to? It may not be just your resume but also COVID's impact on the places you're applying to

[stable shuttle]

Might also be worthwhile putting together a statement summarizing all of your experience and how it shows you're the perfect candidate for the role. Can be hard to sell yourself without sounding like a dick but they love the confidence, especially with the competence to back it up.

[eternal juniper]

Thanks for the advice guys, appreciate that

"daspecito" - I'm trying to get into Python development, Java development, or Data analyst positions
Should I say the in my Cv?
Yeah Covid might have an effect here, but in our country Covid is kinda done already we are starting to get back to normal

[eternal juniper]

That's a great idea!! Thanks! 🙂

[hearty island]

yeah that's a good idea

[stable shuttle]

Yeah you could say you look forward to a career in python development because as your projects show, you're passionate about it and want to continue building upon your existing skills, by gaining experience and developing professionally.

[eternal juniper]

I sure hope so! I really like Python 🙂
I should also make that clearer for the HR reading the CV (That I'm building more Python knowledge related topics)

[hearty island]

how well do you know machine learning? bc if you indicate that you know neural networks they may be like what other aspects of machine learning do you know

[ashen elk]

apologies if I sounded rude about that. leaving that aside, I think you should rather focus on a particular aspect of CS rather than going all over the map. like for a potential recruiter who understands some basics - immediately the first thing strikes that you have done everything from game development to web dev.

I am not saying it is bad - just that if you apply for a specific position (say an internship about AI) Then saying you have dipped your feet in other areas doesn't provide much credit - what does get you credit if you build a whole portfolio on AI only showing how more proficient you are for the job than other candidates.

[stable shuttle]

Good luck! You seem really passionate and enjoy coding, trick is to make sure it shows in the resume.

[eternal juniper]

TBH, my ITC Data Science course is teaching me Machine learning, I don't feel well versed in that as well as I would like to, so right now, not so much

[ashen elk]

so for a potential recruiter - they would rather take an intern who knows a lot about their specific position/use-case than being an all-rounder with an ability to multiple skills - a jack of all trades but master of none

[eternal juniper]

Man, that's a great idea! I will sure to work on that
"MaNameIsJack" - Thank you! 🙂

Sound really important, I will sure to work on designing few resumes for each position

[ashen elk]

also, if you mention something about a topic you haven't dove into - and the recruiter happened to know some aspect and asked you a question you didn't answer - you would be done for

[eternal juniper]

yeah good point!
I actually had a ML job offer to teach students, but I had to decline and say that I'm not yet versed in that to teach

well anyways I hope I won't become a teacher 🤣 not really on my dream list
Thank you guys for all of your help, I will redo my CV according to that 🙂

[ashen elk]

technically, that counts as impersonation and is a legal offense in many countries

[hearty island]

did they really just say they're pokimane 🥴

[dry sapphire]

I find it kinda suspicious that you have so many things listed under skills, because to me, anything on your resume is fair game, and I'd be prepared to ask you fairly in-depth questions

[eternal juniper]

I'm studying for 4-5 years so yeah 🙂

[dry sapphire]

I don't really understand what you meant by that

[eternal juniper]

I studied a degree, and I'm always trying new topics and projects, so I can say the most of my skills that I wrote there, I'm well versed in them

I also take jobs on Fiverr for C++, Java and Python, so I'm trying to "be in shape" in 3 of them, bottom line, I'm great of most of the skills listed there

[dry sapphire]

well, all I'll say that Fiverr is honestly a very low bar. if you think you're great all-round, then I certainly hope your confidence is well-founded, because that would make it very easy for you to find gainful employment. all the best 🙂

[eternal juniper]

yeah I agree with you on that, I don't think I am a master of every kind of topic I listed, but I think I know enough to work, explain and get the job done 🙂

[eternal juniper]

But you know that's an interesting point, what do you think someone needs to do in order to be well versed in, let's say, a langue/engine/topic?

[dry sapphire]

this is, IMO, nowhere near "great". I would say that in the case of languages, you should be able to architect and implement an idiomatic solution of sufficient complexity for a multitude of problems in different domains.

[eternal juniper]

well that's sound kinda basic isn't it?

[little trellis]

Would you feel comfortable whiteboarding out and discussing a solution using that language/engineer/topic. That’s the baseline I would use. Like if a recruiter looked at your resume and brought it up, you wouldn’t be worried.

[hearty island]

can you comfortably answer neural network questions?

[eternal juniper]

I think that if I have a 3 day gap I can prefer to any topic regarding that
daspecito - I did a pure mathematics course about that, and I also built one in Java without using any imports related to ML

[little trellis]

3 day gap?

[eternal juniper]

right now I'm using only Python and learning ML and Data science related topics, I think that if I need to explain anything in depth, I need to go over things again - I've done that for the last 4 months

[little trellis]

Right, that makes sense. What I would say in that case then, you would want to feel comfortable talking about and solving questions in that topic without having to go back and look up the general stuff.

[dry sapphire]

by this, I mean that if in an interview, I asked you to, say, "design Instagram", you should be able to answer in detail (tech stack, infrastructure, deployment, devops, etc.), while justifying your choices and contrasting them against plausible alternatives.

[little trellis]

For instance, if you brought up ML as a skill and someone asked you what techniques you would use for dimensionality reduction. Could you answer that off the top of your head?

[eternal juniper]

is there any interview that ask that, I think that it will be related to a Senior lead position, I don't really expect that kind of question in my first interview to a Junior position

'icmitch' Honestly I don't know if I can do it as of right now, for the reason that I just started learning ML, as I said earlier, So I have to say to that, NO lol

[dry sapphire]

that is the minimum I would expect of someone who would consider themselves "great" in a field.

[little trellis]

Yeah for ML I would wait until you have experience with a wider range of models. Neural networks are cool but most models in the industry are on structured data and generally use gradient boosters, random forests, svm, ect

For Python I’d want to see you code some basic solutions as well as have an understanding of object oriented practices.

[eternal juniper]

But that's some interesting perspectives and opinions, I will really dive into them, thank you for the input 🙂
the unpingable - can you really expect someone without any job experience, a Junior developer to explain you all the development aspects of Instagram?
icmitch - yeah, I don't claim to know ML, that is why its not written in my CV 🙂

[eternal juniper]

well that is very basic, I think, in any langue OOP will be really basic stuff that everyone should know to do

[little trellis]

Junior devs really would not and shouldn’t be asked design questions like that

[dry sapphire]

nope, I wouldn't normally, but if a junior developer described themselves as "great" in several aspects, then I would

[hearty island]

are neural networks an aspect of machine learning 🥴

[little trellis]

Haha yup that’s all interviews are really testing for. Can you code in the most basic sense and how do you problem solve. Hard to do much more than that in 30 minutes.

[little trellis]

Of course, that’s why I brought it up as those were listed in the resume. If someone says they know neural networks I’m going to assume they know general ML models as well. If they don’t then I’ll be confused

[hearty island]

that's why I'm confused. he says "yeah, I don't claim to know ML, that is why its not written in my CV" but neural networks is written there.

[dry sapphire]

I have not met a single person who understands DL in depth (or even to a middling standard) but cannot do/understand classical ML

[hearty island]

saying you know neural networks insinuates that you do indeed know ML and if you don't wanna listen to the college student you can listen to these guys too ^

[eternal juniper]

this is kinda stupid but this is how my University decided to teach us
We didn't learn a thing about ML, in general, just NN

We had 1 course in NN and that's it 😅 , and we focused more on the math behind it

[hearty island]

it would be like if I said yeah I don't know data structures and algorithms but suddenly I put capable at functional programming on my resume

[little trellis]

Haha very interesting approach on their end. Strange to see how things are being taught these days.

[hearty island]

there are some great books/courses out there for you to get a mastery of the basics in ML

[eternal juniper]

lol yeah well you're right its stupid, but really this is what I studied in University and this is why I am now at a Data science course
icmitch - this is just my stupid University :/

[hearty island]

no I'm not blaming you I just think the way the university taught you wasn't the best route

[eternal juniper]

Send it away I will be glad for any knowledge on that

[hearty island]

check out what's pinned in #data-science-and-ml I would send the links but I don't want to clog the channel

[little trellis]

I think the moral of the story here and the point we’re all dancing around is just keep the stuff you have a very strong grasp of on the resume and keep the rest off for now until you learn more and feel confident in them 🙂. Personally, I would care a lot more about what you’ve actually built and how you can explain that rather than the skills listed. As long as I see some basic programming knowledge.

[eternal juniper]

yeah! nice chat 🙂
want to hire me? 😛

[vapid jay]

what is college btw is it the same as university

[little trellis]

Lol we have Data Engineer positions open I think but not at the junior level unfortunately

[hearty island]

yeah in America it is

[dry sapphire]

in some places they're the same, in some others college comes before university, in others a college is part of a university

[eternal juniper]

In our place they are very different

[little trellis]

In the US I’ve always seen a University as a collection of Colleges

[leaden jasper]

Not exactly true. University generally implies that there's a graduate level program. A university can be comprised of multiple different colleges (i.e. I attended New York University, but within New York University, you attend a specific college like the College of Engineering or the College of Arts and Sciences).

[eternal juniper]

in our place a University > college (better than)

[hearty island]

I stand corrected 🥴

[dry sapphire]

so where I come from there isn't really "college" in isolation, and what you call "colleges" in a university are what we call "faculties"/"schools" (so like in my university there was the Faculty of Sciences, the Faculty of Engineering, etc.), and I understand that in many places "faculty" is used to refer to the teaching staff...?

[leaden jasper]

ooooh, interesting

[eternal juniper]

its funny in our place if you study in a college its way worse than studying in a University

[vapid jay]

in our place college always comes before university college is after highschool and uni is after college

[eternal juniper]

cool tbh, so what are you studying in college?

[vapid jay]

math and science - basically preparing to be an engineer but not sure what i want to focus on in uni

[eternal juniper]

you are here, so you like programming, why not go with that? CS degree

[vapid jay]

getting into a cs course in a good uni is really really tough - it is what i want but i dont think i will get it

[eternal juniper]

I had really bad grades in highschool, I worked REALLY hard to get into a CS degree
If you really want it, you'll do fine!

[royal parrot]

as software enginers when have u started to learn programming and when u were able to program in fe. python well

i mean i just wonder if im doin good with my learning or should i spend more time.

[eternal juniper]

just before I answer, what is 'fe'?

[royal parrot]

and how did u learn coding, school, just lookin into the internet, courses?

[eternal juniper]

I started to learn Python a year or 2 ago, but I really go into it in the Data Science course I'm doing now, so 4 months of non stop Python
I started programming with my first game, but not in a langue of anything too flashy just in a game engine, MMF2.
When I started my CS degree I got into real programming, so 2017~2016 I wrote my first hello world program 🙂

I think courses are great for starting, but you should really talk to someone professional to build you a meaningful and strong list of courses that cover more then just coding, so courses that are also diving into math and theoretical topics
But, its really just my opinion

I think that starting with a small project or program is the best (its fun) way to start coding, but you really need to work hard and build a concrete understanding of CS in order to be a GOOD programmer

[royal parrot]

i do enjoy programming but i have motivation problems (i think), i do learn programming for literally 2 weeks straight 2-3 hours a day and then just stop for few weeks and then comeback again. I feel like i didnt learn too much bcs im still trying new things instead keep practicing stuff i learnt

if may i ask, what was ur first project to start programming?

[eternal juniper]

I think that I was really bad when I first started doing my games, so yeah

I think a project will be perfect for you
Learn the tools while you are trying to make your little project real, it might be not the best way to do that when talking about professional knowledge (aka yandere simulator) , in my opinion, but its a great way to start

[royal parrot]

the way i do learn atm is lookin for exercises in the internet and do them while making them 2/3x harder and im not sure if its fine. project wouldnt be bad tho but i have no idea what could i do

[eternal juniper]

it was Triumph war 2142, and later on, in University I got into project involving Android studio and Java, my first project there was a Duolingo like app for sign langue (in Hebrew sign langue)

Adanos I think working hard and failing bad, is a good and a great part of learning
I think you should try to find things that interest you, I like video games, do you have things like that, that can help you define a **__small __**project?

[royal parrot]

also im focusing on security, ccna, hackin with hack the box etc, im keep trying new stuff bcs i love doing everything that contains programming, hacking. my history of learning is something like. c++ (1month) then python and javascript for like 1 week then 4 months css and html now python meanwhile im trying htb and tryhackme

[true harness]

those two aren't very related, you can easily know one and not the other

[royal parrot]

i dont really thought about creating a game. my plan is to work somewhere at silicon valley or something at big companies

[eternal juniper]

Planning is good, and you don't have to create a game you can do whatever you like 🙂

[royal parrot]

thats the problem, i have no idea what i would like to do, project wouldnt be bad but i would like to do something i "need" or somethins usefull for me but cant find the thing that i could use it except learning

[vapid jay]

what is one supposed to know before starting deep learning ? ( i know only python)

[hearty island]

how's your math knowledge

[vapid jay]

good

[hearty island]

statistics, calculus, linear algebra, probability, discrete maths?

[vapid jay]

yeah, still learning probability and statistics , remaining ik

[hearty island]

then you should be pretty good

[vapid jay]

i guess

[vapid jay]

Hi, all. I heard Leon on Talk Python today. I understand he's full stack. That's the direction I'm headed and I'm looking for opportunities to learn new skills.

[light sundial]

(Had to delete the job posting message, just got a ping back from admins they don't allow it here. All the best)

[worn sun]

technically no. College is to get your Associates degree (first two years of college)... they offer 2 year degrees. University is to obtain your four year degree (or the last two years) to obtain the Bachelors. In the states, an Associates degree is 2 years and a Bachelors is 4 years. Some colleges are starting to offer 4 year degrees. Colleges tend to be cheaper than universities.

[vapid jay]

I just found the site repository! That should help.

[peak halo]

You're referring to full stack web development? Take a look at our resources and look out for content about Flask or Django. https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources/

[shadow moss]

Generally (but not always), Full Stack Development means Frontend, almost always SPA, with some form of backend, so I would look React + FastAPI or similar. If you want to stay in all Javascript, there is ExpressJS for Node for the backend

Django is Server Side Rendering and while still done, it's not what newer sites do and I wouldn't recommend learning older tech when starting out.

[marsh wind]

Also nest that is built on top of express but more opinionated and uses more or TS typing stuff.
But for not so big apps or if you need primarily API fastapi is just soooo good

[wintry ocean]

How feasible is it for a "new" Python developer who is 40+ years old to get a job as a Python developer?

[hearty island]

Not sure if I’m qualified to say anything bc I’m only 19

[shadow moss]

Depends on your life experience, if you have a ton of a math experience, data science/data engineer could be an option. Generally Python is used a glue language so if you are looking for straight up Software Engineer, it's harder if you only know Python though not impossible. I'd generally learn Java/Kotlin OR C# OR Javascript/Typescript. This is US based advice, other countries, YMMV

[wintry ocean]

I know a lot of different languages but I was thinking specifically Python. Perhaps I should broaden my description, sorry.

Well, "know". It's been a long time since I developed anything but I've written stuff in a lot of different languages (some more substantial than others). I am probably most familiar with Java, C, Perl, Ruby, Python (to a degree) and various *sh languages.

But I have nothing I can really show an employer, which is why my last job was working AppleCare tier 2 support. Wee.

Thanks for your responses btw.

[summer roost]

Most of the mid-career switches I hear about are people who move within their company from a non-engineering position to an engineering position, but, if that's not an option for you, just start applying to as many junior dev positions as possible. You sound like you know about as many programming languages as the average junior developer does when they get their first job, if not more. Given enough applications, I'm sure you'll find some company that's willing to take a chance on you.

I'd strongly suggest not being specific about "Python developer", and instead focus on "junior developer". Your focus should be less on working in any particular language or technology, and more on landing a job at a company that's willing to train you up into the specific types of software development that they do - at least for your first professional programming job.

also - in case this wasn't already on your mind, age 40+ is a protected class under federal employment laws (at least in the US).

[wintry ocean]

I just realized I forgot to mention some languages I've worked in. Sorry. I have done stuff in the LAMP stack. My last programming job was working on some 15 year old abomination of PHP mixed with Perl then Javascript for the front-end and a tiny bit of Java (I had to figure out how to implement Solr). I don't like putting it on my resume because my boss literally yelled at me so I'm afraid he would give a horrible recommendation if contacted.

I don't like talking about all the languages I've messed with because people might think I'm being weird. Also I didn't realize 40+ was a protected class in the US, thank you. I guess I'm legally old now. ;)

[summer roost]

I'm only a few years behind you, so now it's on my mind too. >_>

If it helps, they're more likely to commiserate about the horror of that app than anything else. Calling people for references is extremely rare. And most employers won't give anything beyond employment verification, for fear of libel lawsuits. If you're able to talk about past professional programming jobs that you've held, and speak intelligently about their tech stack and the role you played, that seems like it'd be a big leg up.

[wintry ocean]

As you mentioned before, a lot of mid-career people move laterally. It is on my mind because I have been unemployed for the past three years so I know recruiters will probably view that unfavorably.

[summer roost]

eh. I wouldn't worry about it too much. You can definitely expect that it will attract attention, and you can definitely expect to be asked about it. As long as you have a reasonable explanation for it, you'll be fine.

[wintry ocean]

The counselor at the Oregon Employment Department suggested I just say it was medically-related and leave it at that, that it's illegal for an employer to ask about it further.

[summer roost]

that sounds like it wouldn't be the worst choice. Oregon also has ban-the-box laws - if it was prison, note that they cannot ask you about your criminal history until after a conditional job offer has been extended.

nope - I just googled "Oregon ban the box" because you were being a bit cagey about the gap, and that would be important info to know if that was why, heh.

The one risk that I see with "medical reasons" is that they might view it as a risk for you needing to leave them for the same reason.

[wintry ocean]

I got diagnosed with major depressive disorder and applied for disability. It took three years, two appeals and ultimately I was denied. I was also diagnosed with a peripheral neuropathy so I can't do the physical stuff I used to do (although I might have to grit my teeth and bear it). I realize employers might view medical reasons as a risky thing which is why it contributes to me being disheartened about finding any work at all.

I've worked at Lowe's and Walmart specifically unloading trucks which is the physical stuff I am referring to.

[summer roost]

I wasn't trying to push for more info, fwiw - just trying to give you relevant info. Leaving it at "medical reasons" seems fine. You might want to rehearse answering that question a few different ways with someone and see which answer you like best.

[wintry ocean]

Sorry, I thought you were. I appreciate all the advice.

[summer roost]

It's not really a good idea to lie to an employer, but if you're finding that you're striking out with "medical reasons" after trying it out a few times, "caring for an elderly relative" is an option that's hard for them to verify, and insinuates that it isn't likely to happen again. And since it's medical-adjacent, they're unlikely to probe deeper.

You may want to try to find a way to redirect that question and pivot to another topic, too - by talking about hobby projects that you worked on, or something like that.

[wintry ocean]

Redirection might be the tactic because I think I would feel bad trying to start a professional relationship on the back of a lie.

[summer roost]

you might be able to find a half-truth that's workable, too. Say that you needed to stay home with your family due to medical reasons, maybe. That makes it sound like it was someone in your family who had the medical reason, but it's not untrue even if it was your medical issue that meant you needed to stay home

[wintry ocean]

This is assuming I get an interview in the first place. I don't know what the developer job market is even like right now.

[summer roost]

honestly, I'm shooting in the dark a bit here. I understand why "medical issues" might make employers nervous, but I have no particular expertise in this domain, so... take my advice on that front with a grain of salt.

On the "get an interview" front, I wouldn't worry about it. It might take a bunch of applications, but - I'd be shocked if you didn't get a few bites out of, say, 50 applications. There's always a shortage of developers.

[gray anvil]

I'm not as bad as yours, but I basically was out of the corporate workforce for three years while dealing with a depression i didn't realise was being caused by undiagnosed adhd. I got diagnosed and treated and I'm back in a pretty good role now

I think If you're in a good place now, maybe you can focus on building up a story of reorienting yourself to the industry you want to work in, do the moves you need to get into it, and try again! As geek said, always a shortage of developers

[wintry ocean]

I always got the impression we were a dime a dozen.

[summer roost]

You don't need to apologize for seeming cagey, really! I'm not trying to grill you, you are more than allowed to share as much or as little as you're comfortable with. But interviewers will pick up on the caginess, so - the best advice I can give there is do a few mock interviews with a friend or family member or something and rehearse a few different ways of handling the question, until you find one that you like and are comfortable with, and can deliver it well.

[vapid jay]

Would it be a bad idea to make a visual interactive maze solver and sorting thing? Seems like other people have already done the project when I googled it and I don't want it to seem like I'm plaigarizing. Like it'd show each index being sorted with colors and animations, and the maze solver would show the algo solving the maze and invalidating paths, etc etc

[gray anvil]

What geek said. I got a lot more confident after I righted my ship. Objectively speaking I was in a better position 3 years ago than I was now before this job, but confidence was the difference. If you show off all the signs of being cagey and evasive, you're off the list before you know it.

And know your worth. Good developers are hard to find, and developers specialised for specific roles harder still. We aren't a dime a dozen

[true harness]

you can't really plagiarize an algorithm (unless it's some proprietary thing (basic pathfinding ones aren't)), so it'd just be a fun project

[wintry ocean]

IMO any programming project is never a bad idea because at the very least you learn something and if you're successful the thing you make might be cool. I remember when I was a kid I wrote a silly little mp3 player and that taught me e.g. how to deal with/implement buffering. I wrote a playlist/editor thing for it and it taught me how to implement sorting.

[vapid jay]

Yeah I sorta wanted to make a simultaneously visual, interactive and algo related project and those are the main ones I can think of tbh.

[wintry ocean]

A computerphile episode had a professor do a maze-solver that also had image recognition so it could translate a bitmap into a solvable maze then print out an image of the maze with the solution path transposed on it. He released his code too if you want to check it out for inspiration.

[vapid jay]

Yeah, I was thinking of doing a similar thing except visualize the process of the algorithm choosing the path, invalidating previous ones, etc. I'll check out his code later. First step I think is just get my normal sorts working, how they work, then begin to make it visual in canvas.
and similarly the maze one probably the first step is just get it working with a 2d array lol

[wintry ocean]

That's cool. I love a good data visualization.

[vapid jay]

Yeah, especially for job applications I think data visualization is a common theme in people I've talked to who got jobs fast. I have a friend who has written really interesting compiler stuff, NLP, etc and he has a harder time than a few of my friends who did technically less impressive stuff, but had a better front end to show it off. Another reason I want to do something algo related is that I realized it's a way to sort of differentiate myself from some boot camp grads who are force fed some web dev stuff for weeks, and I don't want to compete with them on CRUD projects because basic CRUD can only be so impressive I think.

[wintry ocean]

I have a ton of school projects that I never showed anybody. I didn't realize that was a thing people did.

[hearty island]

Projects are taken very seriously in CS. That’s how people make portfolios.

[wintry ocean]

I did a lot of cool stuff at uni but ultimately I dropped out.

I did some different crypto in Java (AES and some other stuff) and for one of my classes I did a chat server/client pair in Erlang (which was really fun).

[hearty island]

Yesterday is history, tomorrow’s a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it’s called the present.

[wintry ocean]

I also did a bunch of other stuff I can't remember. Maybe I'll put it up somewhere. I also maintained a Slackware package for awhile (wooooo).

[hearty island]

Make a GitHub repo for everything bc it is very good for establishing a portfolio and showcasing your projects

[torpid prism]

Hi, I have a Menu table which have foreign key with it self, when I get the query set Menu.objects.all() it return all of the records. but I need to it return the record like a Tree, I mean every record which relate to its parent be with it not in the first layer.

I forget to mention this is django project

[tawdry peak]

!subscribe

[vapid jay]

Hi everyone, I'm a complete newbie and decided to learn programming in order to start a new career. I decided that Python would be the language with which i would start my journey. However i have no idea which online ressources are the best to be on the right track. Can someone please guide me? Thanks

[vapid jay]

what is my career in python?

[swift veldt]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[supple warren]

#web-development or help channel

[inner wren]

Hey @astral herald!

It looks like you tried to attach a Python file - please use a code-pasting service such as https://paste.pythondiscord.com

[hearty island]

@torpid prism this isn’t the right channel for that try #web-development

[cobalt lark]

Hey @floral shoal, our 6th rule does prevent unapproved advertisement. Is that your course?

[floral shoal]

yeah my bad i didn’t read over the rules properly
it’s not my course it’s a career conference some ppl i kinda know are hosting in partnership with cisco systems, it’s not a scam either. the link i posted was just a signup link

[cobalt lark]

Alright, would you mind contacting @severe widget so we can have a look at it please?

[floral shoal]

How would you approve an advertisement?
Oh sorry my wifi lagged I didn’t see ur message

[sharp verge]

hey everyone I'm 17 yo currently in high school...I've a pretty good experience in python I can solve little problems on codewars/edabit/hackerrank but I was thinking about learning stuffs that can actually give me a head start for CS.
Any suggestions on what I should be focused on?

[near ocean]

Are you planning on studying CS in university?

If so i would recommend getting familiar with java as most unis teach their algorithm and datastructures courses on it

Also, getting to know the basic datastructures and algorithms (sorting algos minimum) will out you ahead of most students

My university had intro classes to python and java but did the majority of algorithms with java

As for other aspects of the degree i cant really speak for, my uni did webdev with fugging JSP and tomcat and i did not take compiler classes, they werent core classes

[hoary frigate]

any one use oracle in linux?

[wary kelp]

Hey everyone.

I am currently a CS student in the Software Development program at Champlain College. For my Info Systems Analysis & Design class, I have been tasked with interviewing a programmer/software developer. Is there anyone out there who would be willing to answer a set of 12 questions regarding your experience as a programmer/sd?

[sharp verge]

what about math? or any other topic that most students struggle wiz

[silver rivet]

hello, does anyone know a discord server i can discuss mathematic on?

[near ocean]

Most undergraduate degrees dont assume previous knowledge of mathematics so if you just keep up with your high school maths you should be okay

[sharp verge]

oh okay so I should just focus on dsa with java?

[near ocean]

Well, i would focus more on the theory than the java part, some unis teach them using c/c++ instead of java, you should check eith the syllabus of the schools youre applying to

[sharp verge]

I've found this harvard's CS50 intro course online maybe i should take that course?

[near ocean]

CS50 is pretty nice yea, they run through a whole bunch of languages tho

Its definitely a super introductory course tho, its for university freshers that have never done programming imo

[sharp verge]

they use C at first then python

wtf slow mode

have u graduated?

[near ocean]

Yea

[sharp verge]

the slow mode is pretty annoying

can I dm u sometimes? if u don't mind
and thanks for ur opinion

[near ocean]

I dont do dms, besides, theres more accomplished people here than me to offer opinions or experiences

[sharp verge]

okay thanks

[vapid jay]

my Python doesn't open, so after encoding sontra, I use a wrong translation.

[maiden solar]

Jeez I hate working with Jira so much

[wispy flame]

Is it in Coursera?

[steel vector]

i too subscribe that course and i loved how they get started with it!

https://learning.edx.org/course/course-v1:HarvardX+CS50W+Web/home

[ocean ledge]

depends, what level we talkin bout

kid math? college math? grad level? higher?

[silver rivet]

grad level math

[primal sandal]

I know I have asked this question before as well, but I never got a clear answer... What should I learn after learning the basics of Python?

[ocean ledge]

okay-- what topics? there might be servers to different subjects

[silver rivet]

something like mathstack exchange but as a discordb, numerical analysis at the moment

[primal sandal]

I'm working on my own projects, side by side
And also, it would be great if someone could give me ideas about what to make

[ocean ledge]

math stackexchange isn't really grad level per se-- its kinda undergrad-ish... discord actually maintains some "official STEM servers" that you can look up

they have some for ai/ml topics, computational chem, etc and math-- depending on what your level of sophistication is, thats probably enough

[primal sandal]

I had one more doubt, if I'm learning greedy algorithms, do I really need to watch YouTube videos about greedy algorithms? Bcs while solving a problem, theory normally isn't used... Do I need to study Huffman coding system and the 0/1 Knapsack problem?
This question doesn't only apply to greedy algorithms, it was just a general example

Any help would be appreciated 🙏

[ocean ledge]

https://discord.gg/erPUMFNX

is the main mathematics discore server-- usually there are some grad students there, but mostly advanced undergrads (i don't know what you are studying, so i can't assume you're research level)

[primal sandal]

@ocean ledge Do you have any idea about this stuff?

[ocean ledge]

if the mods would drop this ridiculous slowdown, i can probably answer you quicker

[primal sandal]

Yeah, the slowdown sucks! I don't understand the point of 1min slowdown!

[ocean ledge]

generally no, you don't need to have a lot of heavy knowledge in these things to be an engineer-- in the same way that if you were a bridge engineering, you probably don't need to spend years studying physics to do their day to day job

[silver rivet]

i am currently finishing my bachelor degree in math and looking to discuss some stuff for my thesis

[ocean ledge]

so not grad level-- that server should be sufficient

[primal sandal]

Thanks! So what should I learn? Should I learn a new language? Or should I learn flask, tkinter or stuff
I started Numpy, but I didn't find it useful, so I discontinued Numpy

[ocean ledge]

i mean... it depends on what you want to do with it... coding is a means to an end, if you have no endgoal then nothing you learn ends up being meaningful

seriously, drop the slowdown-- all this is doing is destroying meaningful discourse

[sharp verge]

edx

https://learning.edx.org/course/course-v1:HarvardX+CS50+X/home

[primal sandal]

I'm in highschool right now, and I'm not sure what I exactly I want to do in coding
But there's an Olympiad coming, and it's competitive programming, so I'm thinking to focus on that

[sharp verge]

this one is for web dev
checkout the above link for CS intro

[primal sandal]

But I also want to something besides competitive programming as well

[near ocean]

nothing is gonna change if you keep complaining about slowmode here and not where youre supposed to, like #community-meta and/or modmail

[sharp verge]

@molten spoke please drop the slowmode to like 20 secs

[molten spoke]

This is the decision we made in our last staff meeting, we'll evaluate further at later meetings.

[sharp verge]

pls do, this isn't a busy channel there is no need to enable 1 min slowmode

[molten spoke]

It's not about the busyness of the channel, it's about the content disseminated within it. The goal of the slowmode is to improve the validity of information shared here, more information in: #changelog message

[ocean ledge]

nothing changes either there when you get the same recycled canned answer

[true harness]

we're trialing things right now, so the feedback does matter

[near ocean]

yea well this isnt a democracy and constantly complaining about it gets old and annoying real fast

[summer roost]

The hope is that a high slow mode here will push some of the conversations that aren't on-topic, or require lots of back and forth, off to other channels, leaving this one for carefully thought out answers to serious questions.

[primal sandal]

My question😅

[summer roost]

Yeah. That's not really career related, and would be a much better conversation topic in #python-discussion than here. There may be some ideas for you in our resources, though:

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[primal sandal]

I've already opened resources, but I get more confused

I need to know what I should learn, I'm specifically asking for a concept.. do I learn Numpy, tkinter, flask, machine learning?

[summer roost]

Any of those, or none of those, depending on your goals. If your goal is competitive programming, learning data structures and algorithms may be the most helpful step you can take. And maybe the numpy and networkx libraries would be helpful for that. Or maybe the C++ language, which is much faster than Python at brute force solutions to problems.

[primal sandal]

Okayy, thanks! I'm thinking to start dsa, but I also want to learn something else side by side, and I'm confused about what I should learn, I started Numpy, but I don't think I'll use it much in my projects
I like more backend stuff, so tkinter and flask aren't a good option then ig

[summer roost]

Probably not. If you're more into backend stuff, starting to learn about Unix or learning other languages that are commonly used on the backend (C, C++, Rust, Java, C#, etc) would be helpful.

[primal sandal]

Okayy, thanks! And could you give any ideas for some projects?

[summer roost]

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[primal sandal]

Thanks a lot!

[ember thistle]

hey can i please get some help i have a quote but need an explaination after the quote
"She hates me. That's why she picks on me and not any of the others." Mia had, since starting to work at the Richardsons', noted the peculiar dynamic between Izzy and the rest of her family, especially her mother. Truth be told, her mother was harsher on Izzy: always criticizing her behavior, always less patient with her mistakes and her shortcomings. She seemed to hold Izzy to a higher standard than her other children, to demand more from her, yet at the same time to overlook her successes in favor of her faults."
i need to contexualize and this is what i said before the quote
Her mother constantly diminishes Izzy's success and treats her more harshly.

[near ocean]

This is not remotely related to careers

[true harness]

or...programming

[little trellis]

You're in the wrong place pal

[regal tendon]

Hello,
I got a job interview today, however I noticed something that might be a red flag, let me explain, last week I was contacted by a manager looking to hire for two roles, MLOps architect and MLOps developer, we had a call, then he send me a posting for an AI dev role containing the description of an ML Engineer role. Then during today's interview he flat tells me there will be no ML/DS related tasks, I will only need to worry about productization of the DS/ML teams output by containerizing, deployment, writing API to expose models etc. Which is a really narrowed down scope compared to the job posting, the definition of MLOps and what I've been originally approached for...

[little trellis]

A lot of companies have no clue what they really want or need in terms of ML roles and for many, just putting models into production could be the work of a ML Engineer. Is the company reputable? I would say it is not the best of signs for them to be that disorganized but not sure it is all that rare. If they're disorganized in the hiring process like that, that should give you some hints to the organization within the company.

[regal tendon]

It is a big Insurance company here in Canad, it is the result of two companies merger. During the interview, Hiring Manager said the Data Science is pretty and might need some coaching

we mostly talked about the Ops, a little about ML, nothing about Data Engineering

[ocean ledge]

what's your experience level?

[regal tendon]

intermediate/developer

[ocean ledge]

well, if you have to "coach" them it sounds like you have a pretty bad deal depending on the pay-- you'd be selling yourself short. probably ask them to firmly clarify your responsibilities

[regal tendon]

I made sure to ask a higher number than usual, however I already got a bad experience with a bait-and-switch and don't want to repeat

[little trellis]

I'd generally recommend to follow your gut in these types of situations.

[forest oyster]

what's the best way to prepare for systems design/architecture whiteboard interview style questions?

[vapid jay]

Should I study a BS in Computer Science at a (nearly) unranked university, or a BA in Computer Science at a top 50 school?

Specifically, I might not be able to get into the BS CS program at the University of Minnesota Twin Cities, but I would be guaranteed to do so at Metro State University. These are the only two viable options for commuting. I'd also probably get into the University of Minnesota Twin Cities for a BA in CS, which still requires calc 1,2, stats w/ calc, discrete mathematics, etc.

I'd really prefer to avoid living on campus, I want to commute.

Here is the sample plan for the BA program, which looks like most BS programs I've seen, except some classes like compilers become CS electives, so I could still basically get the same courseload.

https://onestop2.umn.edu/pcas/viewCatalogSamplePlan.do?samplePlanId=45288&programID=127&programSeq=45840&campus=UMNTC

[summer roost]

Assuming your goal is to get a software engineering job, the top 50 school is probably going to help much more than the BA hurts. Name recognition for a school counts a bit, at least for your first job or two. BA vs BS barely matters at all, as long as you're not planning to go for a graduate degree after finishing the bachelor's

[vapid jay]

That was my guess, thanks, I have no intention of going for a graduate degree.

[gray anvil]

As long as you supplement with self learning the brand name and network helps much more

Network loads, join hackathons, do internships, you'll go far

@summer roost what do you think about getting a few years of industry exp before going for a grad degree vs doing one straight after graduation, specifically for working in software development and adjacent fields

[marsh wind]

do you have a specific reason to want a grad degree for working in software development and adjacent fields? From what I've heard, in US it usually is not exactly needed/useful unless your employer pays for it

[gray anvil]

I'm well past the point of needing either, I just want to pick someone's brains 👍

[maiden solar]

Student loan debt is tough isnt

[lilac canyon]

In these circumstances I would personally ask to talk with the individual who would be your direct manager (if you had not already), to get a sense for what needs he has and the type of projects you’d actually be working on. It seems that the role is unclear and your initial contact is clueless - which happens - so ask to speak with someone who does have a clue so they are not wasting your time.

[regal tendon]

The Direct Manager was directing the interview alongside an HR person. I think the role is still unclear to them

[lilac canyon]

Hm. You may want to let them know that you’re interested but need a greater level of clarification. And you could let them know what parts of the role you initially saw that you liked. I’d also go so far as tell them to hire a consultant to clarify their needs as a good consultant could pinpoint what they need to build and who to hire to build it in less time than it will take for them to figure it out on their own.

And depending on the contract, you can always leave if you end up disliking the work, while at the same time, work while looking for a better role.

[summer roost]

I agree with @marsh wind - in the US, once you have a few years of industry experience, the graduate degree is not likely to make much difference to your career. Most software development jobs don't need any more than a very basic level of computer science. If you want it anyway, by all means go for it, but I wouldn't go into debt for it.

[gray anvil]

Interesting! Thanks for the response.

[vapid jay]

jo

[shadow moss]

It generally doesn’t pay off in the US outside few exceptions like Masters at MIT or like.

[vapid jay]

Hii everyone I am Mohammed from india currently pursuing btech cse 1 yr 1 sem starting.
I am going to start my coding journey using python.

[coarse finch]

@vapid jay just call if you need any help

[fervent escarp]

Is getting an IT internship after college looked down upon when compared to getting one during college?

[odd kiln]

better late than never

[summer roost]

It will certainly be harder to find one. Companies often only offer internships to students.

[fervent escarp]

big oof

[upbeat plaza]

whats the job of a data scientist using python?

[ocean ledge]

what does python have to do with it

[upbeat plaza]

well, data scientists use python..

[ocean ledge]

data scientists use anything, the tool is irrelevant-- they analyze data using primarily statistical techniques to solve problems

[junior quail]

googa

[lilac canyon]

Same. However it is personally easier to continue education than leave and come back to it. The value of receiving higher than a bachelor’s is 1. Networking, Exploring new technologies, and Expanding your knowledge into different areas (for example: Business Management and Software Development) during a Master’s Degree and in a Doctorate Program exploring research and academic projects including teaching CS to bachelor’s students. But as to whether you need it? You probably don’t. As long as you work on challenging projects at your company, explore open source side projects / create your own projects, and spend a little time and even money teaching yourself or participating in events / classes outside of a full degree, you’ll likely stay ahead of those who don’t continue to develop their skills outside of work and thus maintain an advantage over your peers. Additionally working in the field and in various open source projects / developing relationships on this discord may sufficiently provide you a “Master’s Degree,” so it really depends which route you want to take and if you want to stay in Academia / receive a PhD and do research and teaching in the future.

[lilac canyon]

May be able to find you an internship at my startup if you need one..dm me if you’re interested

[gray anvil]

Thanks your the response as well brass knuckles and rabcord 👍👍

[lilac canyon]

First. Probably not make everything bold. Other than that, don’t learn alone. Better to have a group of friends or mentor to help you find the right resources and double check your work. I’d also advise starting a github account and adding all your work (school projects - even if they’re terrible or lame), portfolios are a great way to showcase your skill and you’ll (hopefully) only get better. Continue to challenge yourself and your group of friends towards more challenging projects and explore different languages and programming fields - for fun!!! Then when you’re ready, try joining an active public project on Github, develop a relationship with the contributors, add them to your linkedin, and see what impact you can provide. If you’re active, continually learning, and participating in the open source community, you’ll quickly get recognized and picked up by companies who want the best. GL! And if you’re going to college, be proactive about applying your new skills and getting advice from your teachers - also invite your teachers to connect with you on your linkedin (linkedin is like facebook for companies. It allows them to advertise and allows you to find out where your connections work so that you can join them there in the future!).

[ocean ledge]

pick one thing and get good at it. unless you have a stellar math/stat background, i wouldn't suggest trying to jump into ml... set your sights towards whats realistic to your capabilities and what market you're looking to be hired in

[little trellis]

There is plenty of room for ML practitioners such as ML Engineers that are weaker on the math/stats side and stronger on the engineering and library understanding side. To get there though you'll have to work for a while as a highly technical data professional of some sort such as a data engineer.

[sturdy kite]

hi yall 😉

[ocean ledge]

sure, but this isn't necessarily something in the purview of most undergrads, and you'd still need some decent intuition onto the underlying modeling efforts to effectively implement some of these things-- tempering a good core skillset is arguably more useful

[little trellis]

This is true. By the time that you would be able to make the move to ML Engineer via the route I mentioned it would be more of a lateral move in your career anyways. Just felt like mentioning it in case.

[sturdy kite]

icmitch you use go? how is it ? you like rather go or python?

[little trellis]

I do from time to time. It depends on the use case. Go works really well for command line tools or anything that needs a lot of concurrency. I like to use it for writing load testers so I'm able to test load under 1,000s of requests/second. As a data engineer though I still mostly use Python although I'm a big fan of Go and like it's syntax and simplicity.

[sturdy kite]

oh yeah because i saw go is much faster 😉 tahnk you for this reply

[little trellis]

No problem! I'd take a look into it if it sounds interesting to you.

[sturdy kite]

i'm currently focusing on python, because i'm working on developping an application in my current job

[little trellis]

I'd stick with that for now then haha

[leaden jasper]

@vapid jay please don't post memes here

[ashen elk]

but.... wouldn't you need maths/stats to understand those libraries? 🤔 because that's what provides the core understanding and intuition

[zenith inlet]

Imo nobody will care that it's a BA if you have proof of skills either through portfolio projects or research.

It's still a CS degree. If you're worried about not having a good enough bachelors, you could do a graduate degree.

Also, be careful of commuting. f you're looking to save money, that's understandable. However, the distance it adds can hurt you during classes. Yes, campuses can be noisy and annoying, but there can be quieter accommodations.

[dusky umbra]

yes ML requires statics and probabilities knowledge

but working with libraries hum you can still figure it out without the need of this knowledge, because i believe you will gain it through working with these libraries

[dry sapphire]

IMO you need it more to understand when you need to use what from said libraries

[ashen elk]

I don't think so

[little trellis]

You will always need to have at least a conceptual understanding of the libraries. I think there is a difference here though between understanding the concepts and being able to implement from scratch or completely dissect an equation for an for example which is what I'm trying to point out.

[ashen elk]

what you said perfectly describes if someone just wants "shallow knowledge" - there is no way someone can learn the advanced math and stats concepts behind a model just by seeing a library. You might gain some advantage to using them, but it won't be that much as in-depth knowledge about something.

[little trellis]

Basically, what I'm trying to distill here is that there are people in the field who are essentially researchers for private companies that need to know a ton of math and stats in depth. Then there are people who have a good grasp of math and stats and are good engineers who take existing algorithms and apply them to business problems. The prior requires much more in depth mathematical understanding than the later and I would argue that there is much broader use and utility for the later. You will need to know more than just the library. You will need to take the time to understand these concepts more in depth elsewhere. But there is a difference.

[zenith inlet]

There's also people who just tweak models and hope it works. If you want a good understanding, learn vector calc as a start. Also linear algebra and statistics. In my opinion, basic statistics is actually easier to understand if you teach it in terms of integrals and derivatives.

[ashen elk]

so are you saying that someone from a research background cannot implement their own models in actual businesses/deploy them for real-world use?

[little trellis]

I'm not saying this at all. I'm more saying that not every company needs someone who has that research background. Most just need practitioners. There is a trade off. There are people who are really good in the math and stats realm but generally less skilled in engineering, generally Data Scientists. Then there are people who are really good in the engineering realm but less so in the math and stats realm, generally ML Engineers.

[zenith inlet]

I think that's actually a little but not entirely or universally true for anything related to computers in general. People from research backgrounds often don't have good grasps on the practical day to day tools currently used in industry, and people that apply research other people did often don't have a good grasp of the underlying theory. It's not always true, but there's a tradeoff of where you invest your time.

[little trellis]

This is why Data Scientists and ML Engineers are different positions technically although are often confused by companies.

[ashen elk]

all good points and I agree with them, but you can't just universally state that about people from research backgrounds. there might be some researchers who may know about real-world deployment, but your statement would completely discredit them

[zenith inlet]

That's why I said it's only a little true and not universally. People from a research background can definitely implement a machine learning system from scratch if they have to, up from C or whatever low-level language they prefer, but they would probably prefer to something else unless it's absolutely necessary. Some people actually implement systems from the ground up using C as a portfolio project.

[little trellis]

He's portraying nuance I think in his statements. He literally said his statement wasn't universally true.

[ashen elk]

but everything aside, there is no excuse for not knowing your basics - even if you might not be a researcher, there is no argument that would cover the gap in the fundamentals.

[little trellis]

For sure, and ML Engineer is not a junior role. Anyone in that position should have at least a few years of experience in a highly technical data related position.

[zenith inlet]

The point is that what the basics are for each role are different. It's like a pharmacist vs a general practitioner vs a surgeon in medicine. Each has very different role that they specialize in even if they share some skills in common, and the fundamentals of each role vary aside from a few core skills. If a GP asks a pharmacist to remove an appendix or a surgeon to check if a patient's medications will interact badly with something, the GP will get some weird looks.

[little trellis]

Just like the role data scientist varies so broadly in general. In some companies it can just be a glorified business analyst. While in others they're running the research on your state of the art computer vision products.

[zenith inlet]

The engineers might not be as good with the fundamental theory, but they will know how to get the stuff the other people develop into a useful production state. You can probably think of it as similar to the spectrum ranging from basic science to engineering production.
Basic science is questions like "Can we build better matrix multiplication algorithms?" and "What are the physics of microwave emission from this new unexplored mixture?"
Then you get more practical questions like "Can we apply these newly discovered optimization cases to machine learning?" and "Can this new physics be turned into a solid state microwave emitting device?"
And after that you have the very practical production engineering questions like "How do we build our new solid state microwave as cheaply as possible?" And "How do I minimize the response time from our new ASIC-backed ML systems?".
All of these types of roles exist in both ML and other sciences. Different roles have different requirements, so spend your time to be as good at you can as the role you want to fit into.

[ashen elk]

Look, I agree with all your points - but I think we are diverting a little here. My original statement was that working with libraries necessarily does not mean you would have a good understanding of the ML tools you use,

but you guys are countering with why you don't need to learn about those tools in-depth (with several analogies and correctly pointing out some crucial things). but in the end, your argument revolves around the fact that Ph.D.'s would write tools and you guys would use them all to construct pipelines to solve real problems. All great.

but coming back to the original point, it was simply that working with libs would not get you a very deep understanding of DS, but it would be enough to get you by. that is just it, and it is not exactly a statement to debate on.

[little trellis]

I'm just arguing my original point #career-advice message that you replied to. I don't think anyone in this conversation is coming from an angle that isn't sound.

[ashen elk]

The engineers might not be as good with the fundamental theory, but they will know how to get the stuff the other people develop into a useful production state.
It was more in reference to pushfoo's arguments 😅

[little trellis]

Ahh is see haha. Overall this has been a pretty good discussion though.

[ashen elk]

true. I am more surprised as to how the slowmode does indeed help in a more civil and calm discussion 😁 (but I would still prefer it be reduced a bit)

[little trellis]

For sure. It makes you actually think about what you're going to say and prevents constant interruptions that plague this channel sometimes haha.

[ashen elk]

yeah. plus if there is some random person who wants to just chime in to egg on some debate, there isn't much room for that - the only people who would want to actually have a meaningful argument would be the ones that are willing to wait 1 minute to send each other their message!

[undone ice]

Hey everyone, is it possible to learn 2 languages at once such as JavaScript and python. I just began python a few weeks ago, and wanted to learn some JavaScript or CSS to get a potential front end job

[little trellis]

Very much agreed there haha

[near ocean]

Yes it is, thousands of students juggle 2 or more languages every term, if they can so can you

[undone ice]

Do you think it’s possible to learn 2 languages at once? And if I fully dedicate like I’ve been would it be possible to be job ready within a month for a very basic jr position? I heard some junior positions may hire with no experience. I have a previous degree, but in something unrelated.
@near ocean kk awesome! That’s great to know!

[fossil ruin]

Of course it is. But it all depends on your ability to differentiate what your learning and how you balance your time between the 2 languages. I generally wouldnt recommend it especially if you are trying to learn something to a point where you could use it as your only language in a job. However if its as an extra support with basics i see no reason why you cant learn them simultaneously.

Edit: this is about the language learning not about the job with unrelated degree i have no experience with that

[near ocean]

I dont think its possible in one month, if you dont have a relevant degree you'll need a strong portfolio and theres so much work that you can do in one month, even if you treat it as a full time job

Not only will you need to get comfortable with the 2 languages, you'd have to put up projects that are advanced enough to wow employers, not the kind of projects beginners can do

[zenith inlet]

Yes, but with the caveats @fossil ruin said and some others. If you dedicate well-separated time to it, it will be easier. I wouldn't try to do it for a long time as multi-tasking like that will leave time for little else in your life and leave you stressed out.

It'd be easier to get good at one language, then learn others as you go. You might have trouble when you try to use concepts that don't exist in the new language you're currently using, but those difficulties will be educational on their own. I ran into that with JS when started brushing up on it a little while ago. It turns out there are some things you can't do in JS conveniently yet are easy and native concepts in Python.

[undone ice]

Ahh but dedicating some time to both languages would still be possible to become proficient enough for a job if I’m really dedicated right? I just ask that cuz like I said I see some job offers for those with very little experience it seems. But yeah I plan on doing python and JavaScript

[little trellis]

Python and JS are very similar languages concept wise so that helps. How they are generally used can be pretty different though.

[dry sapphire]

it depends on what the job wants, how much time you spend, and, crucially, how talented you are.

[near ocean]

I recently came across a dude that started coding in april 2020 with no cs background at all after going through freecodecamp's curriculum, the guy treated it as a full time job, and right this moment has 8075 contributions in the last year on github
Pretty sure he has a job as well

Its all up to you and how you treat learning the languages

[little trellis]

Interesting that that person just put their head down at the start of the pandemic and went head on into learning a skill

[undone ice]

Wow that’s amazing. Yeah I’m gonna just be fully dedicated, and learn the languages. We are in lockdown again for who knows how long so im gonna dedicate my time to this skill.
Also in your opinions, is JavaScript or CSS more important

[near ocean]

Their github timeline makes me feel bad for myself tbh but it do be like that sometimes

Be like this guy, you'll have a job in no time

[true harness]

wtf

[hardy sundial]

hello I'm new . i learn python

[fossil ruin]

JavaScript since it is used for front end and back end. CSS is pretty easy to learn and is a mark up language

[lilac canyon]

Be like this guy but write your name in the chart by committing a lot of code on certain days 😄

[modest panther]

sup

[faint rose]

does anyone know what the string function .split() does?

[vapid jay]

It returns a list of the words in the string/line , separated by the delimiter string. This method will return one or more new strings. All substrings are returned in the list datatype.

[delicate bane]

what do you guys use to look at job market trends? or do people just get general impressions from articles they read?

[little trellis]

Mostly economic podcasts for general trends haha. For tech specific stuff also podcasts, and articles, quora, ect...

[delicate bane]

podcasts ftw

[vapid jay]

Dm

[primal grotto]

Please does anyone know steps to take to be an application security engineer

[brisk trench]

I’ve heard that if ur incredibly skilled with python u don’t need some sort of degree or anything to be a python developer, is this true?

[craggy wave]

There's some truth to this, but it's also a bit misleading. There's a lot of value in having a degree, as it means that getting a job is much easier, especially if it's your first job. It varies from country to country, but, here, having some kind of degree is required in almost every job listing and even our clients typically ask for it (we do consultancy and/or supply high-performance teams). Having a degree, at least here, goes a long way in getting your foot in the door.

Without a degree, you need some other way of showing your skills and your level, which does mean you're playing the game at hard mode: It's absolutely not impossible to get a job without a degree — it's actually really possible — but you will have to compensate for it, maybe by working your way up. You'll have to build a portfolio, get active in open source, get certificates, show that you've got what it takes. All those things help when you have a degree, but they become so much more important when you don't have one.

I realise that this is not the answer you'probably hoping for, so don't let this discourage you from trying to get a job. As said, it's possible, but if you have the option of getting a degree, it's probably worth it. (Disclaimer: your local situation may be completely different than mine.)

[ocean ledge]

no... no don't upload everything to github. spamming it with low quality projects on your portfolio is not recommended

[ocean ledge]

depends, what are recruiters spamming me about recently

[cinder slate]

Depends on the employer I guess,in some places if you can blow their minds with some awesome things you did you have a good chance at getting the job, some places will not even look past your cv if you don't have a degree

My boss had 0 interest in my degree and we spent a whole interview just reviewing my projects

[ocean ledge]

usually if i interview someone without a traditional stem background, i will end up asking a bunch of core cs questions just to make sure they understand fundamentals-- thats moreso the important part

[hearty island]

what kind of core CS questions?

!resources + !projects. Automate the Boring Stuff in "!resources" has projects and the other one has more projects. Just to clarify, these are commands you can use in the server.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[whole mantle]

Best books to learn python with exercises? Reading The Coder's Apprentice - Pieter Spronck at the moment.

[hearty island]

are you a beginner?

[autumn bluff]

let us python '- yashwant kanetkar

[whole mantle]

Yes, I am learning Python for the first time. I am halfway through my first book, and have done the exercises after each chapter. I think I have the basics.

[hearty island]

automate the boring stuff is good too

[whole mantle]

Thanks. Automate the boring stuff looks good. Does it have exercises/projects with solutions?

[hearty island]

Yes. it's probably the best book for beginners in my opinion.

[whole mantle]

Perfect. Thanks!

[mighty goblet]

You should check out Python Crash Course

[whole mantle]

Is it better than Automate The Boring Stuff? What's the big difference?

[hearty island]

python crash course is more project oriented from what I saw but automate the boring stuff does the same thing too 🥴

[mighty goblet]

I think PCC focuses more on the fundamentals

[hearty island]

🥴 whatever

[mighty goblet]

Just a suggestion

[whole mantle]

I will look into both. Thanks for helping!

[eternal sinew]

In company interviews do they ask implementation of algorithms like merge sort,quick sort and stuff like that, i can explain the complexity and stuff and i do understand the algos bt i m unable to implement completely from the top of my head,so do i really need to worry abt that?

[hearty island]

yeah I have the same problem, but the people on this server say if you understand the algorithm you should be able to implement it 🥴

[eternal sinew]

@hearty island yeah that's what i was expecting as well lol

[hearty island]

I disagree with this whole understanding = implementation thing, but that is just my opinion. There are a lot of people here who adamantly disagree w me about that 🥴

you can "understand" how to drive a car, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can drive a car 🥴

[forest cypress]

Hi

[eternal sinew]

Yeah quite true

And we almost google half the stuff so i don't think they should expect us to remember algos

[forest cypress]

please the tutorial website ? .

[hearty island]

It is terrible your skill and merit shouldn't be determined alone by how correctly you write heap sort 🥴

[eternal sinew]

They just use this to filter out candidates

[true harness]

pfft, wdym. you just press the pedals and turn the wheel, nothing difficult about that :P

[hearty island]

🥴

[true harness]

!resources check out this page

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[forest cypress]

ok

[true harness]

i disagree with your disagreeing though. you can understand all you want, but at the end of the day if you can't implement it properly then all your understanding is wasted. often times a lot of detail is missed when you hand-wave over it in understanding, but actually implementing something allows you to get into the nitty-gritty and truly understand something

[hearty island]

and you're entitled to disagreeing w my disagreement 🥴 implementing and understanding something are two completely different aspects of knowledge (in my opinion). It is important to implement things because otherwise you have no real experience of using the knowledge you understood.

[true harness]

we both agree they're both important, it's just that i equate them. i just think it's impossible to understand something unless you've done it yourself ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[hearty island]

yeah I definitely agree with that

[little thistle]

Good Evening guys,

I just graduated in 2020 but had already started working in 2019 as an intern at a algotrading startup. Now it's 1.5 years, I've been working as a full time and I'm starting to realize that I'm not learning and earning enough from this job. I want to be challenge and upskill myself. Hence I thought of switching to Data Science/ML 'the hot jobs'. I know I may sound stupid, but I seriously wanted to do this since I was in 3rd year. Would love some suggestions about this switch. I've already secured a data science job but it's paying less than half than what I'm getting right now for 3 months, then if they like my work, they would hire me full time. What do you guys think? Should I stay in Software Development, do Competitive Programming and apply for good companies? Or should I switch and explore data science (being a 23 y/o)

Thanks Guys!

[ocean ledge]

unless your background is particularly strong with math/stats, scale your expectations for working on landing an entry level data analyst job, then work on transitioning in-job towards higher data roles

[toxic oar]

how do you show someone else you understand that?

[hearty island]

understand what? Driving a car?

[toxic oar]

well anything you say you understand, take algos as example

[stiff osprey]

I am at the same level as you are. I completely understand stuff, not good enough to implement. But I don’t agree with the fact that having the understanding is enough to get the job. Just like a race car driver should know how to drive, not just understand how driving works. Unless, the position that you are interviewing for requires preliminary understanding.

[hearty island]

@stiff osprey yeah I don’t agree with the fact that understanding things alone means you get the job either.

[burnt sun]

Guys which is the main discussion channel

[marsh wind]

#python-discussion for python or off topic channrls for non python

[primal sandal]

How experienced should one be to participate in a hackathon?

Kindly tag me when answering. Thanks!

[peak halo]

I attended a hackathon once for my undergraduate CS program in the US and no amount of experience was required, though it was pretty much only seniors who won.

[gray anvil]

Hackathons are for getting experience!

[primal sandal]

I searched for some hackathons for High school students, but they asked me what my profession was and what I specialise in
What should be my answer to these Questions? There's no option for none

[main thicket]

If you can’t really implement it then do you really understand it? I would argue that being able to implement something is part of understanding
Imagine if people had more nuance than "if you cant X, you don't understand it". Understanding some theory and understanding how to implement are rarely anything but orthogonal skills

[main thicket]

Can you write student? What sort of specialisation options were there?

[digital fjord]

Sometimes, implementing something is much harder than understanding how to use a given thing. Consider an amortized O(1) acess hash table. Implementing one of those requires automatic extensions of the hash space. The naive implementation which doesn't increase its hash space has O(n) element access. But understanding how to use a dict is pretty simple. Even stacks have multiple possible implementations and understandings which is best is non trivial.

[main thicket]

Often understanding something is a lot harder than implementing it also. Theory and maths can get very hard while code remains simple

[digital fjord]

that is also a good point. For example, the quake inv sqrt function that subtracts the bits of a float from a magic constant is pretty easy to implement, but understanding why that ends up being a good enough inverse square root is a lot more complex.

[main thicket]

Sometimes a lot of the understanding doesn't even translate to any code. A simple discrete fourier transform is only 2 for loops and does the same job as an FFT. But the hard part is understanding what it does, its properties and understanding the nuances to do what exactly you want (many things in signal processing are extremely nuanced and counterintuitive)

[near ocean]

The point is that once you understand all of the intricate details about something, putting it to code should not be difficult
Unless you struggle with the language i guess

[main thicket]

Not really true. Only true if the code directly represents what you're trying to do and it's not big enough that it doesnt need a variety of abstractions.

[near ocean]

Well this is python, im assuming thats the language we're using
Its the language that started this topic anyway

[main thicket]

What I said is applicable to python. Often the code doesn't look a lot like the theory you're trying to implement or the code is big and needs a variety of abstractions, which you may not be comfortable with weaving.

[sudden quartz]

And also the other way around

[near ocean]

I dont agree
If you understand a concept fully and are comfortable with the target language then you should be able to translate it
If i asked an english maths grad to explain a maths concept in english and they couldnt i would just assume they dont understand it

If you cant represent a concept in code then theres two things that might be happening

1. you dont understand the concept
2. you dont know the language well enough

[main thicket]

The statement lakmatoil said just before me already said so. I was providing the contrapositive example

[near ocean]

You can argue there are exceptions and i would agree but this started in #algos-and-data-structs with someone struggling to implement linked lists, not some wild maths concept

[main thicket]

But code isn't a language, it's real work of its own. It's the difference between knowing the biology of a tumour and its effects, and the practice of how to remove that tumour in practice. Maybe linkedlists is a bit simple to implement but for example, a lot of people struggle with implementing graph search and traversal algorithms, or recursive algorithms, even if they understand the algorithms and can describe how to apply it and what the flow would be like

And as I was talking about, there's tons of theory fields like signal processing, ML, etc which aren't really CS work but understanding what's going on and their theory is even more different from the actual practice of implementing them.

[ocean ledge]

+1

[ocean ledge]

math is a weird example for this-- usually difficulty in explaining to someone is usually translated as "difficulty in translating to an untrained person"

[primal sandal]

Backend developer
Front-end developer
Full stack developer
AI
Machine learning
Stuff like this

Maybe I should look for hackathons specifically for high school students, I did find one hackathon for high school students btw😁
It's going to be my first hackathon 😁

[hearty island]

Typically as stelercus said the most experienced ones are the ones that win but that’s pretty normal

[primal sandal]

I just want to gain some experience by participating in hackathons

[hearty island]

that is great. I only wish I was driven enough as a high schooler to attend hackathons too.

[vivid ermine]

whats hackathons

[vapid jay]

Hey guys

what's the best way to get job / internships as a python developer?

[jade pewter]

produce a cool project, host it somewhere accessible- leverage that during applications

[vapid jay]

would anyone like to work as a team on a project with me

[hot seal]

You code in python?

[hexed cosmos]

What is the project?

[ocean ledge]

get gud

[near ocean]

This is the kind of responses im assuming staff here are trying to avoid with the slowmode

[summer roost]

It would be hard to find a better example.

[peak halo]

!mute 536320349516857366 "1 week" This kind of behavior is why we put these new policies in place, but it seems you don't care. If you don't want to help, don't. One more crack like this and you're out of here.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @ocean ledge until 2021-04-10 20:36 (6 days and 23 hours).

[subtle heart]

oh god, this brought a discord grammar bug to my attention
edit, wrong message to reply to.

[sudden quartz]

what should i get my masters in hmm

MA Mathematics is choice number one because MS CS degrees just seem like technical degrees people do when they want to transition into software

[summer roost]

Why do you want to get a master's degree at all? What's your goal?

[sudden quartz]

research, why else

[main thicket]

What country are you in?

[sudden quartz]

USA the king of computer science

[main thicket]

King of CS is debatable but in the US, you go straight to PhDs, not do Masters.

[lucid vapor]

Why do you need a masters for that? I don't see the point.

[sudden quartz]

? why

[main thicket]

Because that's how the US works. In other countries, you do a Masters or Honours degree first (1-2 years) and apply for a PhD (3-4 years). In the US, your PhD is 5-6 years to account for the fact that you don't come in with a Masters.

[lucid vapor]

But again, why do that in the first place? Is there a real benefit to that?

[main thicket]

They already said. They want to do research.

[lucid vapor]

Oh, I see. But how does this research help?

[main thicket]

How does this research help what?

[lucid vapor]

Their career. How does the research help them?

[main thicket]

Research is a career...

[lucid vapor]

Oh! I misunderstood. I thought they were talking about doing research to help them with a CS career. My bad.

[glossy orbit]

Question. Is one year good to practice and maybe get a job as a python developer?

[hearty island]

Perhaps, but it really depends on the person. People learn at different rates.

[summer roost]

Is this in the US?

if so, it's not impossible, but you'll be competing with people who've completed 4 years of college for the same entry level jobs. If you have a lot of natural talent, or you're very determined, you may be able to learn as much in 1 year as most learn in 4, but most people can't. Fewer companies will want to hire you, and you won't be able to command as high a salary as someone with the degree.

[sudden quartz]

thats wrong, there is the MS degree... period. there are all types of graduate schooling, like graduate certificates and more

[sudden quartz]

yeah you might be able to get some crap job if youre packed full of good projects by year 1, but you wont go anywhere in your career and your job will suck (at least in comparison to positions and salary you could have instead, with a related degree). all these software transitioner stories dont say squat about what happens when theyre fired

[gray anvil]

I got a very good entry level job as a python dev after one year of self study + a boot camp, with the largest financial institution in my country. To my position was also hired another python dev with 8 yrs xp, he got the same coding test I did.

Factors:

1. I brought to the table some freelance work as a database dev, which aligned with the job requirement
2. I'm not in the states or Western Europe, and devs are much harder to find out here as a result
3. that coding test would have destroyed someone who hadn't been doing what I'd been doing for the last 2 weeks everyday, which was a lucky break for me
4. a network connection put me in front of that interviewer, not job app spamming

Tldr your mileage may vary

[sudden quartz]

already a pretty big outlier with that first factor yo

[gray anvil]

Aye, just want him to know there's hope, and it's possible, but it's hard work. The boot camp network actually really helped for me

[sudden quartz]

Thats fine but Hope be like "Mark Zuckerberg never graduate college and he's successful" 🤡 literally a quoted notion one might hear

[summer roost]

I have no personal experience with bootcamps, but I've heard that they can help get your resume in front of a hiring manager. Better than just having a portfolio, anyway.

[sudden quartz]

youre gonna need some very helpful outer factors if you want to be successful as a bootcamp programmer but hey its a skill based field and career. youre gonna wsh you just went ahead with a degree eventually, regardless if you can or not. one of my lecturers advised and was smashing youtube coders hard. Companies are leaning more and more away from them, supposedly. Which makes sense considering the masses of cs graduates, AND other stem graduates who want into software, AND the liberal arts transitioners who have a masters

[summer roost]

Eh. A CS degree teaches lots of things that aren't very useful for a software developer to know - but a lot of junior developer interviews test you for computer science knowledge, rather than for things that are actually useful industry skills. That's not a great system, but it's a consequence of the fact that most of the junior developer candidates that come before them have some CS knowledge, and most have less or no industry experience. Comparing them based on their computer science knowledge is pretty much the only level playing field to compare them on, even though it doesn't align very closely with real world requirements.

I'm certain that a boot camp grad can be just as good a software engineer as a CS grad, because a CS grad spends easily three quarters of their time learning things that are not useful in industry jobs. But the fact that both may be able to do the job equally well doesn't translate into both being equally able to get the job. Unfortunately. Honestly, that's a failing of the hiring system, but it's also a fact, as the industry stands today.

[sudden quartz]

I disagree actually. There is no way in heaven a boot camp grad will advance in the industry as much as a CS grad... and yes a boot camp grad might be good in a single position... but thats the thing. They arent as prepared for the software fluidity of the industry. They can program, great. If youre a knowledge sponge- even better, youd succeed no matter what. but again, exceptions prove the rule. Any more advanced positions particularly those worthy of the term engineer, are gonna ask for a lot more from their hires. And you wont live to touch any research position. and of course, everyone and their mother knows degrees get paid more

[main thicket]

They exist, they're not the standard way for research. Most of the masters programs that exist are for professional subjects like engineering, business, etc. or transitional masters like CS. For mathematics, Masters programs are extremely rare unless they're for like, applied jobs like applied maths masters or something.

[sudden quartz]

are you american? this is just wrong. every university has a masters if they have a phD... my university literally has a good math program that lets me study actual computer science and like game theory, automata, etc. Accompanied with all the research side of things. publications. etc.

[summer roost]

Any more advanced positions particularly those worthy of the term engineer, are gonna ask for a lot more from their hires.
Well, yes, but the things they're looking for aren't things that CS degrees provide. They're looking for a track record of being able to design and architect large applications, a history of building maintainable and scalable software, the ability to manage projects, gather and negotiate requirements, keep stakeholders in the loop and make reasonable compromises in order to make the best use of limited resources, etc. It's definitely true that, as you advance up towards senior roles from junior ones that companies will ask much more from you, but the extra things they expect from you aren't things that CS graduates are more likely to have.

[gray anvil]

Yup, it's project management, communication with stakeholders, domain knowledge, niche expertise, that sort of stuff

Also slow mode in this channel was a great idea

[celest ledge]

For freelancers or working at startups I think bootcamps offer much more. 3-4 years in degree vs 6 month bootcamp + 6 month study of the core concepts (OS, Networks, Databases). I would pick the latter as it saves up 2-3 years of one's life.

[gray anvil]

I agree.

The CS > Bootcamp thing I think is more true in very mature markets like the US, but not true outside it

[celest ledge]

Even there I think it has got to do more with the 'tag' of being an alum of a uni rather than skills (personal opinion).

[summer roost]

Overwhelmingly, the things that a CS degree teaches are mostly not things that industry jobs want or require. They just want the degree as a baseline way of comparing people who approach them. I'd only ever recommend pursuing anything past a CS bachelor's degree if you're specifically interested in becoming a lifetime academic (tenure track professor, let's say) or you're specifically interested in conducting research as part of a large company (say, self-driving cars and computer vision at Tesla, or quantum computing at IBM). For anyone who's just interested in the 99% or so of software development jobs that don't require you to ever publish research papers, hopping off the CS train after getting the bachelor's degree makes more sense - unless you find an employer who's willing to pay for you to get the master's degree, and you think it's worthwhile to take advantage of that.

[gray anvil]

Hmm, you have a point. I'm have a good degree from a brand name uni but in a completely unrelated field, so if anything I took MORE time 🙈.

So I guess I was thinking more about comparing the general Cs skillset to the Bootcamp plus focused self study skillset

[summer roost]

And, for what it's worth: my experience is limited to the US, I have only a BS CS, and I have a bit over 10 years of industry experience at quite high paying jobs, and have been involved in the hiring process for both junior and senior developers at multiple companies and for multiple roles. And my experience is entirely in the FinTech realm.

[sudden quartz]

maybe, since i know most programs have liberal arts requirements but either way you wont advance in your career, also what a bootcamp offers doesnt come close to an actual degree which if its good even comes with internships. and a course in cs is harder than a bootcamp. and when it comes to after a BS in CS for people who just want jobs.... obviously dont go back into academia. but seriously a CS degree > > bootcamp. As a CS grad you should basically be a techlead... know multiple langs, know program security, do you know how many people can make a compiler? and more. I agree if you dont want to do research dont get a Compsci degree though. so many other less prestigious less considered engineering degrees but they are so much more ideal and youll get a higher gpa from easier courses

[gray anvil]

Noice, I'm coming from the pov as an econs grad with non IT work experience who came into cloud dev via Bootcamp

[sudden quartz]

America is more competitive so I dont speak for other countries at all, you can do great as just that. The fun stuff is just less realistic. Fun to me personally. I did CS for the research afterall. even more so than most to the point im doing a MA in game theory or something lol

[summer roost]

if its good even comes with internships
That's very true - my BS CS program was at a school that does co-op style internships, and I know for a fact that the co-op internships were the single most valuable thing that I took away from the degree. Much more valuable to my real world career progress than anything that I learned in classes.
and a course in cs is harder than a bootcamp
I'm skeptical that that's true, honestly. My impression is that bootcamps are generally faster paced. @gray anvil you say you've done both - which do you think was overall more difficult? Did the CS students seem to struggle with the material more or less than the bootcamp students? Which was faster paced?

[sudden quartz]

i wasnt asked but seriously... id personally say there is no way some bootcamp course is harder than a single cs course in a well credited program. they dont even come with textbooks man

[summer roost]

As a CS grad you should basically be a techlead...
That's absolutely not realistic in the least. My company takes CS grads and puts them through a 3 month bootcamp when they're first hired to teach them real world skills that we need. The point at which we start to expect any sort of leadership from them is after around 3 years - and that's for the ones who are really quite good.

[summer roost]

You weren't asked because I was specifically interested in the opinion of someone who has relevant experience. There's no reason I should trust your opinion on this - you haven't been exposed to a bootcamp, and haven't been involved in the hiring process, and haven't ever been in a position to evaluate the skills of bootcamp grads. I know what your opinion is, but I have no reason to give much weight to it.

[celest ledge]

Wouldn't leadership be independent of a CS grad or a bootcamp? Do companies look at it from this perspective: Cs Grad Leadership > Bootcamp Leadership
This could be true but I idk at the moment, someone who has hired can better explain this

[gray anvil]

The Bootcamp was by GA, targeted at data science. There were no CS grads there, it was still extremely python heavy, but also stats and econometrics heavy to some extent (they were flying through my econs undergrad stats semesters in like a week)

The Bootcamp was overall extremely fast paced. I also did a full stack part time course in the evenings to supplement, that was fast ish too, but it's all very practical stuff. In that sense it might be much more industry focused that what a Cs course would learn in the equivalent amount of time.

[gray anvil]

Absolutely! I just try to jump on here sometimes to talk to anyone who seems like they aren't from the states. You guys are for sure the industry leaders, but sometimes someone from, say, India, who wants to break in, gets advice that's good for the US but maybe less true for Asia

[summer roost]

Yeah, sorry, I should have said: we put all new junior hires through an in-house boot camp, regardless of what prior experience they had, and whether it was bootcamp or traditional degree or what. Whether you get promoted into a leadership role depends entirely on your ability to manage the work that's put in front of you, and to start to build domain expertise and begin to manage smaller parts of projects on your own, set realistic goals and meet them, build a network of people you can reach out to when you encounter problems, etc, etc. Getting promoted to a leadership position has nothing to do with whether or not you have a degree, at least in my company.

[celest ledge]

Oh and here is an unpopular opinion:
CS Grad with awesome batch mates > Bootcamp grad with meh batch mates
I think environment and the people matter a lot

Also true vice versa
CS Grad with bad batch mates < Bootcamp grad with awesome batch mates

[sudden quartz]

Its not hard to just see what a bootcamp offers actually. I know people who have done bootcamps, and i know what they offer and do in general. Also, your fintech company might just not have top cs grads. obviously we dont know the industry or how to pay taxes... but you always have the bare minimum who got good grades but didnt learn as much as the hardcore undergrads. its not hard to come out experienced in all things CS if you try

[summer roost]

I think there's a lot of truth to that, too. Outside of internships, relationships that I formed in college made a big difference to my skill level, and my ability to transition between jobs as my career advanced. Being able to challenge myself to keep up with other smart people was a huge help.

[summer roost]

That simply does not match my experience hiring for industry jobs, an area where I'm absolutely certain my expertise is more relevant than yours.

[celest ledge]

@summer roost Can we like just go a bit easy on the dismiss pls It might be true but kinda rude, maybe?

[sudden quartz]

Youre just speaking from authority, and not much of it at that. I have genius lecturers whove told me all about the industry process. They hold secret meetings with universities etc.

[gray anvil]

Is this fresh out of high school - > boot - > job BTW

[celest ledge]

That is from the Eric Weinstein podcast with Bret Weinstein...? They said the same thing in there but that was for academia and research sponsorship not for industry

Ah... I would not like to get into textual discussion of that conversation as it was a 2ish hour long podcast (very very entertaining but only after the first like 20 min)
But they talked about these things you have mentioned greenreligion

[summer roost]

I'm not intending to be dismissive, exactly, but - one of the problems that this channel has historically had is that it's very difficult to tell who is speaking from firsthand experience, who is speaking from secondhand "my friend told me that" or "my professor says that", and who is speaking from third hand "I read an article that says that X". That's why I've chosen to qualify my advice with my location, work experience, hiring experience, etc. I don't intend this to seem like an empty appeal to authority, but I would hope that people will recognize and weigh the different types of advice given differently. Mine is lived experience, coupled with an honest desire to learn more about what people who went through bootcamps feel about the process (as that's very different from my lived experience). But "there's nothing as good as a CS degree" coming from someone who, as far as I can tell, still has not attained a CS degree, isn't really useful career advice, because it's not based on any actual career experience.

[gray anvil]

I know that feeling, hard to tell for sure sometimes.

[summer roost]

And for what it's worth:

Youre just speaking from authority, and not much of it at that. I have genius lecturers whove told me
The irony of pointing out an appeal to authority, and countering with an appeal to authority is sort of great 😄

[celest ledge]

That is a powerful position but since I am new it came off as dismissive (my bad) but it does make sense as articles are usually not meant to be descriptive rather 'emotional'

[little trellis]

This is the way of Quora and it seems to work well there. Everything has a qualification attached to it

[sudden quartz]

"my professor says" is literally unbiased reference that is great than you because it includes genius lecturers and multiple companies and their hiring... but ok also i pretty much have my degree. Not really using appeal to authority at all, but im pointing out I/they have more authority than you here- which isnt my point anyway so no need to address unless it triggers you

[summer roost]

sure. Well, I'll let the others in the chat decide how to weigh the advice coming from each of us. It's not a competition, it's about ensuring that people understand where the advice they're getting is coming from.

[summer roost]

Which is one of our stated goals for this channel, seen here.

[gray anvil]

Could you guys consider voluntary tags specifically for this channel? Maybe broad strokes for experience level, background and objective

While you still can't confirm anything without requiring a linkedin verification or something, it might shortcut some of the "not sure where this guy's coming from"

[summer roost]

We discussed the option, and decided it wouldn't really help much. It would be impossible to vet or fact check, and there's no workable way to incentivize it. Currently we're just going with the slow mode plus a request to qualify advice. We may move onto more drastic steps if those don't get the quality of the channel up to a level where the staff is comfortable with it.

[gray anvil]

fair enough. the slow mode was a good idea tho

[summer roost]

yeah, it appears to have pretty drastically improved the quality of discourse in this channel since it was implemented a week ago.

I don't feel that people who don't have careers yet should be in the position of giving career advice to others. Everyone is obviously entitled to their own opinions, but if you state them as facts, I really hope that others will challenge them. Because as Stel's pinned message says - this channel is about people's lives and livelihoods, and the cost of misinformation and bad advice and FUD can be very high.

[sudden quartz]

define career though, even if a didn't have an internship and then a full time job lined up, (and research experience) thats an odd notion. careers start in highschool tbh

[celest ledge]

Imma sit this out, I don't think I qualify for advice so would rather just ask questions

[gray anvil]

I think 1 year, bare minimum, but preferably 3+ (wow I sound like a job posting).. it's about talking to people in different career tracks, with different skill levels, with different origins, and forming your opinions. As dismissive as it sounds, you can't possibly know anything about the real world at 18, and I would know... I spent 2 years working as a career/university counsellor for high school leavers

[summer roost]

I can see the argument for considering things before "my first industry job" to be part of your career. And I don't mean to dismiss all of the experience of someone without an industry job - I think they might have very valuable advice about things like how to get your first job, and how to get internships, perhaps how to choose areas to specialize in, how to pick schools, how to make the most of college, or things like that. But I don't think someone who has never been involved in hiring, and neither has had a chance to meet a bunch of engineers and see what their various backgrounds are in, has much of a leg to stand on when it comes to the value of a CS degree. It's hardly shocking that CS professors would say that CS degrees are the only way to get ahead and everyone should pursue them - they clearly have an incentive to encourage more new CS students, and they've got a bias towards academia anyway or they wouldn't have become professors. After a few years in industry, and starting to see what the makeup of real teams are, you're likely to have a more nuanced view of what the strengths and weaknesses of bootcamps and degrees are.

and in fact - there's absolutely questions that get asked here where I would keep my mouth shut because none of my experience is relevant, or is badly out of date (how to get a DS or AI/ML job, how to choose grad schools, etc)

(and if you ever see me talk about any of those things, feel free to call me on it 😆)

[sudden quartz]

For people more into their career than I am, go ahead and not heed my advice, I respect those older than me, but if I was that unreliable it sure does suck for all highschoolers at the HS career talks ive participated in. Also thats not what any professors say, and i surely didnt say that they did. I said that companies themselves are learning more torwards cs grads than bootcampers. Also the people im talking about arent professors, i specifically said lecturers as they have no phD (and have/have had industry jobs). and i personally feel knowledgeable on all of the above. I just have the general knowledge.

[summer roost]

well, it sounds like we're in agreement about at least one thing - I agree that companies still prefer CS grads to bootcampers. I don't necessarily agree that they should, but it's definitely a fact that they do.

And I definitely agree that you have an easier path towards getting your first industry job if you have a degree than if you go the bootcamp route instead.

[cloud shadow]

lol bootcampers sounds so derogatory

[sudden quartz]

I do agree that they should though. CS degree just has more value all around, and its built to shape well rounded SWEs, and more. obviously if the bootcamp guy is so much smarter than the cs grad go ahead at the position and hire them. but will that be the case in the long run? where corporate upscaling slams a Rust textbook in your face and tell you to learn it in a week? we can agree to disagree

[summer roost]

Well, from what I've seen in industry, most of what you learn in a CS degree is totally useless. There's some advantage to being well-rounded, but - well, that's just as true of taking English classes than CS classes. Given a choice between an engineer who has taken an English composition class versus a graph theory class, I'd take the one who took the English class, all things being equal. It's much more likely to be relevant to the job I need them for.

[cloud shadow]

I've interviewed bootcampers who have had more practical knowledge on how to build applications than harvard CS grads. Highly depends on the individual, and that's what the interview process is meant to sort out. Favor shouldn't be given to either from the get-go.

[sudden quartz]

if you do the bare minimum and get a BA and not a BS i can see that. otherwise not, i think favor should be given to the cs grad in general

[summer roost]

"totally useless" is a bit too strong, but: given the choice between someone who can explain to me the limitations of a context-free grammar, and someone who took classes specifically geared towards learning how best to express themselves in writing, they're likely to use the latter skill every single day, and the former once every few years at most.

[sudden quartz]

this though brings up something else, like most CS degrees have a liberal arts gen ed curriculum... i pseudo minored in ethics/logic/philosophy

[summer roost]

sure, that's true. But what I mean to draw attention to is that some of those classes are much more useful in "the real world" than some of the CS theory classes.

[cloud shadow]

idk man I think society puts a little too much stock in formal education nowadays and it really singles out people who take non-traditional routes.. and who's to say that these non-traditional routes aren't better? So much open source education nowadays — you reeally don't need to be spending $$$$ to geet the same quality of education online.

edit:
Again, I'd say don't give preferential treatment... just interview and let their performance be your metric.

[summer roost]

I agree. I think CS grads get preferential treatment in general - but a lot of that is mostly in the form of hiring pipelines companies have established at universities, via on campus career events and internship programs and such...

[sudden quartz]

yeah the whole applied not applied deal. and at benji lol when it comes to education obviously unis have no control on it. but what a bootcamp offers or even a stream of them pales in comparison to what a cs degree confirms youve been through. (or you couldve did bare minimum, mabye take like 2 cs course a semester and go to harvard) i do agree with that as well... ton of special programs just for certain degree holders or even certain college attenders which is even worse. pipelining grads... i dont like that

[cloud shadow]

From my perspective, CS degrees teach you raw computer science; bootcamps are like trade schools in that they give you a practical working knowledge of popular, employable tools... but that isn't to say that CS majors don't learn about these tools on their own time, and bootcampers don't study CS on their own times as well.

[sudden quartz]

people who study theory on their own time have a bad reputation for "having theories" ask your local uni about it lol

[summer roost]

but that isn't to say that CS majors don't learn about these tools on their own time, and bootcampers don't study CS on their own times as well.
very, very true. One area where I've heard bootcamps tend to be very weak is imparting Data Structures and Algorithms knowledge, and most of the boot camp grads who go on to industry success wind up self-teaching that course.

[cloud shadow]

well idk what you mean by that lol.. you're talking to a dude who does just this

[vapid jay]

I feel like the best thing you get out of bootcamps is connections

[summer roost]

I think that's true for universities as well. Beyond that, for both, I think it's mostly up to what you personally choose to make of it.

[sudden quartz]

way better for unis, like i said some universities literally streamline students into positions and have a placeholder for them

[summer roost]

As far as I know, there are bootcamps with the same sorts of relationships and pipelines - likely into different sorts of jobs, granted.

[vapid jay]

Unfortunately i can’t afford college, and the only bootcamps i can attend are the remote kind so i kinda just gotta make a banging portfolio and hope lel

[cloud shadow]

Good luck man. It's going to be a grind, but don't give up!

[main thicket]

They have it but that's not the standard page because people apply for PhDs straight up. As I said, a lot of places in the US don't have master's in maths at all, same with physics. You'd get a master's of you dropped out after your quals during your PhD.

[vapid jay]

@cloud shadow damn straight been coding 20+ hours a week for the past 3 months hoping after a years time i’m decent

[summer roost]

remote bootcamps are better than no bootcamps, I'm sure. One of the biggest advantages of either college or a bootcamp is giving you a curriculum and making you commit to it. Lots of people who try to self-teach just wind up giving up, or not knowing what to spend time learning and what not to. If you can afford the time/money investment for the bootcamp, I'd still recommend it. It's likely to be at least as good as what you'd do on your own, and possibly much better.

[cloud shadow]

I got my first job self-teaching 40 hours a week for 6 months, so a year sounds about right for you.

[vapid jay]

I work full time so it’s a bit of a hastle to pump in 40 hours @cloud shadow

[summer roost]

in a field that's at all related?

[gray anvil]

similar position to me, so it's not impossible

[sudden quartz]

can you attend school hackathons? definently try. you win you almost certainly have connection to a company then you can get a degree paid for. so many students are returning for school for a degree while in a software position already. you will make normal students like me feel jealous

[cloud shadow]

I worked two jobs while self-teaching :p
So if you're cool with having no life then you can totally do what i did lol

[gray anvil]

protip: don't have kids, hope your partner is chill

[cloud shadow]

not gonna lie being single during that time helped a lot

[summer roost]

That's good career advice in general, sadly

[vapid jay]

@sudden quartz I mean i compete in a few kinds of tournaments i aint to good yet but when given the oppurtinity i always compete! :D
@cloud shadow Haha that's fair I'm at 40 hours this week, already but that's because of some special circumstances

[sudden quartz]

https://math.tufts.edu/graduate/ms.htm just an example of a standard youd fine at every university i know