nice good luck
#career-advice
vernal lily
zealous ibex
guys can you rate my stack profile? is it any good https://stackoverflow.com/users/story/10740549
Im remaking it all
now I'm doing github
like is it good enough qua information ?
zealous ibex
thanks! but what do you mean the scikit learn and nltk stuff? 
the thing to fully understand it ML is the math, I know linear alg only calc is the thing I don't understand yet π
but the code isn't that hard, you can just learn it by tutorials and doing
fallow island
Yeah I do a lots of stats and changing language does not take long
what r u up to ?
show me ur projects
https://github.com/NiksanJP here is mine
zealous ibex
currently I'm doing projects on datacamp so I cant copy paste the full one
But I have my first data science project on github π
fallow island
what r u working on?
zealous ibex
rn? with the website or in general
zealous ibex
And also the main lead of it
fallow island
wow
zealous ibex
he's trading and buying products, I'm in charge of the website
fallow island
which dataset did u get?
zealous ibex
I get 25% of the profit
fallow island
oh
zealous ibex
wdym?
fallow island
did u get minutes or hours?
zealous ibex
no per unit sold
fallow island
for bitcoin price prediction
zealous ibex
oohh noo
fallow island
?????
zealous ibex
we aren't doing that
fallow island
oh
zealous ibex
can you vc?
zealous ibex
voice chat
fallow island
oh
fallow island
I am starting price predictions per minute
fallow island
kkk
livid kindle
What's a good way to build a formidable python portfolio?
(I'm a self-taught compsci student in Europe)
hazy charm
@zealous ibex 25% of profits is very high for just making the site. But you mentioned you are the data scientist as well, so I'm assuming you are helping to predict what and when to buy and sell?
Also, hi guys
zealous ibex
Actually no, it's more complicated than that but no predicting
I'm just getting customers as well as optimizing the website and sales
We only sell apple products for now
They are all new so it isn't that hard but the hardest thing is build trust with the user
honest cloud
real python
That's nice. Meme somewhere else
halcyon plank
Has anyone here ever applied to Microsoft Student Program?
I was thinking of applying but needed some guidance, if anyone could help
ashen summit
Hello everyone
I got my first contracting job
I was wondering if someone help me with reading the contract and looking for anything that may be dangerous
My father, who is a software engineer, said it seems boilerplate but he is not totally confident
real python
I wouldn't really trust the opinion of random people on the internet over that of a lawyer
ashen summit
@real python You are probably correct.
but I have no money and have been unemployed for like 6 months while I was learning how to code
real python
You're asking for legal advice from people who are not able to provide it in this setting
ashen summit
yes. you are right. I will try and find someone more qualified who can help out
torpid bolt
i think there are redit communities to discuss work related law questions, they might be able to help
dusk tapir
Iβm 15 currently deciding on my college major, is software engineering a better choice or artificial intelligence?
opal perch
Depends what you want to do later in life, but you'll be able work as a software engineer even if you do AI as a uni course
dusk tapir
So which one is harder?
Iβve been programming html and css and php for about a year
Started python 3 months ago
real plover
Maybe look into Computer Science
dusk tapir
I'm not really interested in computer science
real plover
That should include the software engineering and AI courses you may be interested in.
vapid jay
I'm majoring CIS
CIS? ive never heard of that one, unless it only specific colleges (nvm google cleared it up)
shy pollen
Alright, connection opportunity and i'm not sure what to do
rare sand
@shy pollen why not?
sounds like a "what do you have to lose" situation. it's worded a bit weirdly but I am assuming they are a recruiter
humble elm
@dusk tapir I dont know your college but "ai" isnt really a full on major. Its a course in cs most of the time
You might be able to focus on machine learning or ai but not full on major that
fair moon
@humble elm Isn't the major for AI just data science?
vernal lily
some universities offer AI postgrad
humble elm
Pretty sure it depends on your uni, so I dont know
vapid jay
Anyone here done the UO IT and Computing Degree?
twin quarry
Are there any certifications you guys can reccomend for getting a job?
Anybody know anything about this? https://pythoninstitute.org/certification/
torpid bolt
it depends on the job, but i would say certifications are not really a python thing, people don't look for that, python the language is easy to learn, ability to build things with it is more important, having a few projects on github, or contributions to other's project is more interesting to recruiters
tame night
@twin quarry if you're inclined toward getting a certification, focus on what content the organization is going to teach you and will you be able to follow their tutorials (example videos will help in judging that). Also ask for policy regarding personal help sessions. Because as @torpid bolt said certification is not something recruiters are looking for. Learning is key.
opal perch
well I mean in a way, the first steps of recruitment are usually HR with no sense of technology or someone alike. And they wont give a flying toss about your github, so a cert could get your foot in the door, but it wont keep it there
torpid bolt
it certainly depends on location, but i don't think i've seen HR taking any sort of technical assement (even from diploma), they delegate to whatever the in-house engineers tell them are good criteria to judge
vast shoal
In my experience, they mostly go on keywords in the resume or linkedin profile and then pass it along to engineers.
Like, if there are words on your resume that match up with the tech stack of the company.
And, years of experience.
opal perch
pretty much what I Said, the initial process is either a bot or hr
I mean @rare sand can chime in, how did you get past the initial hr/bot screening? To reach that point where someone looked at your github etc
rare sand
for my first ever dev job? got lucky. applied to a million, got one interested company, nailed the technical test.
but now that I'm in the industry, they come to me. my LinkedIn brings all the boys to the yard.
torpid bolt
didn't apply to a million, but to a few i was really interested in, and made cover letters with my CV, showing i new coding wasn't a solo activity, and that i cared about quality, tests and all, and yeah, after the first one, you have recruiters flooding your linkedin.
slate wren
I have not gone to college and my only experience is my projects on gihub. How invisible am i?
torpid bolt
having something in github is nice
you still need to be discovered, but you can send put your github profile in the CV you send to companies, that will give them something to check
slate wren
My concern is i wont even get that privilage once they see no college degree or previous employment other than a family business
torpid bolt
dpendens on where you live, but programmers are in high demand in a lot of places, and that makes it easier to bypass the diploma thing
the things you learn at university are useful sometime, but they don't make what you spend most of your time doing as a programmer
slate wren
im hoping to move
mossy furnace
@rare sand just checking in to thank you again for your advice. Finished off MIT courseware and and starting to build a few mini github projects to show off my skills. On track to change careers.
rare sand
nice @mossy furnace, I wish you the best of luck.
slate wren
MIT coursewares?
torpid bolt
OpenCourseware, they publish videos of their lessons
you can watch them for free on youtube
and you can follow with all the resources on their website i believe
and you can unroll for a fee to have a diploma at the end, iirc
slate wren
interesting
shy pollen
When a job asks for experiance with a language or framework, does that mean inside of a job or your actual experiance
slate wren
If they dont say specifically consider it a loophole
My third best language is italian
if you helped move office supplies to a truck saying you have rennovation experience isn't a lie
torpid bolt
i guess any experience worth mentionning, who cares where it comes from, if you can talk about what you did with it, they'll judge if it's relevant enough, don't exagerate what you did, but don't shy away from describing it, they might like it even if you think it's something small
slate wren
now you get it
Also change your resume up based on the specific thing you apply for
copy paste in key words in the job description
torpid bolt
the CV doesn't really need to change, the cover letter does
shy pollen
I try to make a large history of projects on my gitlab profile
Hopefully that will be enough experiance
near oriole
Hi, I'm a 34-year-old English teacher looking to change careers. I have a year of Python experience and am just getting into Kivy. I don't really know what my interests are yet (although making phone apps and ethical hacking sound cool), but I'm willing to go where the money is and to learn other programming languages. What kinds of high-paying career opportunities are out there at the moment?
dusky onyx
@near oriole A very common thing is backend developer with Django, It's definitely one of the most common requirement on job offers. Aside from that, there's a bunch of metrics/data science jobs out there, so I recommend familiarizing yourself with numpy/scipy
opal perch
and additionally, python is quite huge in cyber sec, but there you have to have a larger understanding of systems, hardware, networks, etc
torpid bolt
hey, kivy is certainly cool if you work on your own to build apps (freelancing or the like), it'll give you fast iterations, it's not very commonly used by bigger companies though (but i'm hopeful, it might change), so for now jobs that require kivy are rare. disclaimer, i'm a kivy core dev π
gray glacier
I am a very young python developer, I know Basic python and a bit more. I want to get into Discord Bot developing or something, and AI and Machine Learning. But not so sure. Do I continue with Python or?
shy pollen
Continue with python
Discord.py for bots, ai and machine is a large field that usually uses something like tensorflow
gray glacier
Would school prevent me? I am almost 13 and I am in school so would that keep me away from learning?
shy pollen
Being on discord at 12 is against tos
And sure, school will slow you down in terms of programming but theres nothing you can do about that
torpid bolt
machine learning bots could be fun, though you have to be careful about who use them, it's easy to have people badly train them π¬
unkempt ferry
So i'm now in the seattle area and starting to look for jobs, but it feels like nearly every position posted is for a senior dev. Do you have suggestions on how to locate entry level opportunities?
opal perch
I'm surprised Komko190 wasn't kicked, usually 12 year olds get insta kicked.
@unkempt ferry how are you searching right now? what shows up when you search for 'entry level (whatever job title you're looking for)'
unkempt ferry
Per some previous advice I've actually been searching for tech companies and then checking their career pages. I'll take a look at that link, ty!
opal perch
here's a list for junior developer jobs
https://www.google.com/search?q=junior+developer+jobs+seattle&ibp=htl;jobs#fpstate=tldetail&htidocid=SMmU0VWfIZ5LWT5vAAAAAA%3D%3D&htivrt=jobs
I'd be surprised if Seattle had no junior/entry developer jobs, its one of THE tech cities in USA
unkempt ferry
Right? That's why i MOVED here, but thank you so much for these, I'll definitely look through them!
opal perch
yea they might not all be python, from what I Saw actually most were js/java :/
unkempt ferry
Yeah, I'd prefer python, but I'm happy for anything at this point. I can always try to get a python position later ^_^
quasi drum
I see a lot of jobs for data science and machine learning for python but I honestly have no idea what that is in a business environment. My only exposure to machine learning is like bot that learns to play a video game or recognize faces. What sort of things does a data scientist or machine learning guru do in a business environment?
mental mountain
@quasi drum Lots of uses for data science and ml in business. Imagine doing natural language processing on customer satisfaction surveys to find whether people had positive or negative opinion based on word choice. Or looking at the cost/revenue data and then finding trend in it, visualizing it based on other variables. Even basic things like automating CSV/Excel file comparisons or sending emails when data crosses a certain threshold. Lots of things like that
near oriole
@torpid bolt : I started on Kivy precisely because I have a bunch of ideas for apps I want to create, but as I said, I'm certainly willing to broaden my horizons.
near oriole
@dusky onyx : I went to a free Thinkful class on data science. Don't think I have the interest for it. Can someone talk about the difference between Django and JavaScript as far as job prospects are concerned?
near oriole
Also, can you guys talk about the difference between entry-level jobs in backend and frontend web development?
vast shoal
Most places I've been at/heard of, you're generally expected to do both. Difference with regards to what, exactly?
dusky onyx
@near oriole Django is one of if not the most powerful backend for websites, both REST APIs as well as static file server, while JS is more of a frontend framework. If you enjoy doing frontend, learn JS/React/Vue, if you like backend learn Django, and maybe Flask.
Both have about just as many jobs (in my area at least), though Backend seems to have better pay.
vernal lily
what does "powerful" mean in the context of backends
zenith dove
I need a learning path to prepare myself for the job industry.
Anybody got any pointers?
vapid jay
hey all, i am trying to learn python by going through python crash course. i was wondering what I need to do in order to be ready for a Python entry level job
near oriole
@dusky onyx How much better does backend pay, approximately?
vivid dock
Depends on everything tbh
Where you're applying, how old you are (sadly), your experience, the company's finance, your negotiation skills
and the list continues
I've met front ends getting paid more than backend, and vice versa.
lament trail
So I got a huge opportunity to get hired as a junior data analyst at my company without any prior experience or anything (my ticket to get away from grunt level jobs). They're asking me to learn MS Excel and Python 3 as fast as possible to see how fast I can learn before they hire me. I'm thinking to build a discord bot as a learning experience along the way, is that a good place to start in terms of little project while learning?
vivid dock
If its fun I suppose, motivation is a big factor in willing to learn
Mind a discord bot will cover some of the more advanced topics like async and decorators
lament trail
That's true, but I never thought of trying to learn a coding language before and so I thought, I may as well give it a shot and see if I like it especially since I really do enjoy learning new things. And as they say "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"
vivid dock
I wouldn't start out with a discord bot if its your first programming project over all
many have, some did fine, other not so much. Getting a firm grasp over python first is probably better to do first.
lament trail
I'm still taking notes and such, I'm learning through an app called SoloLearn on my phone during breaks or whenever I'm not home, and at home I'm taking notes from a 13hr long YouTube video called "Python for Everybody - Full Course with Dr. Chuck"
near oriole
unkempt ferry
am i missing something. or would 7 years of experience not qualify you for at least midlevel stuff?
reef fulcrum
i dont know which is the proper channel to put this but, i just don't know what to program. i enjoy it, but all ive made was some video poker game 5 years ago.
outside of that, it's just been something akin to writer's block
vapid jay
how important is kaggle if you want to get a machine learning job?
vivid dock
That's an absurd application
Not a specialist in the field, but I'd say kaggle is just a tool to test your models if there is similar data to what you'll be training at some job
A ML job probably wont train on public datasets, but more their own data
torpid bolt
@reef fulcrum if you just want to code to solve problems, not necessarily have a project, there are myriads of existing projects that could use a hand, so you could just decide you like some program, framework, or library, and look if they have bugs to solve.
or features in wait of a hero
of course, discuss with the project maintainer before investing too much energy in that, it's good to have a feel if your work would be welcome, and how to ensure it's well received, to avoid frustraction on both sides, but a lot of people would be happy with a new contributor π
hasty basin
is there a big difference between going into computer science compared to info tech?
tawny quartz
Yes
IT is focused on configuring and maintaining existing technology, e.g. Windows end-user systems, Linux servers, networking infrastructure, etc.
Computer Science is developing new technology, e.g. development, engineering, research, etc.
@hasty basin
ebon adder
I LOVE YOU GUYS
tawny quartz
Wrong channel
ebon adder
No, I got a job π
rare sand
grats, @ebon adder
sharp yew
grats
ebon adder
Waiting until I sign the contract this week to post in sub π
reef marsh
congratulation!
ebon adder
Success story, no formal computer training, yada yada
Thanks all, I actually won't even be using Python!
But because of my python skills I was hired!
shy pollen
Cool
vapid jay
Hello
grim lance
dude cheated the system
fringe relic
both my kids are still in High school and both are programming in Javascript and Python. grades 10 and 12.
What sort of Careers can Python developers expect to find out there?
In my days (ancient) everyone was using C or COBOL or ADA. π
gilded valley
Python is used all over the place now, although generally in conjunction with other languages and technologies. Some examples: full stack web development using JavaScript for a front end (Instagram uses Python for its back end); data science, machine learning, and AI often use Python as a core component; and then it can be used to automate everyday things like filling out spreadsheets or sending email alerts
fringe relic
cool so that makes sense. JS on the front-end and Python on the backend with a framework like Django to help
gilded valley
Yeah, Django is what Instagram uses, Flask is the other main web framework
swift veldt
@ebon adder awesome!
fringe relic
?
torpid bolt
damn, someone who used adaβ¦ my teachers would be proudβ¦
anyway, python can be used for everything, from websites to data analysis, to graphic production pipelines, to machine learning, to mobile apps, to game engine scripting, to system administration, to robotics⦠the list is longer, these are just examples
fringe relic
ADA was Interesting but IMO overly complicated. its like C++ and COBOL programmers had a baby.
primal sundial
I am looking for a mentor
torpid bolt
@vapid jay i use jira at work, ER might be Epic Report in the graphs? not sure about TC and AR, but jira is pretty configurable, we might not use the same set of features as your team.
karmic spear
TC might go for team capacity
but anyways those abbreviations are custom things jura does use full names
vapid jay
ok.. so long as I know it's not standard terminology, it's fine..
@DeneD#8293 @freddy731#7306 @vernal lily @gdude#2002 Guys thank you for supporting me that day I was really worried about that background check process about my school 12 std marks. I am glad to announce that it has been cleared. All my documents were approved. The portal is still active but it will be fine..... Hopefully everything works out. I am starting my career now. You guys will always be there for me and i will always be here for you. Thank You Internet/discord thank you all . GOD bless you with all the success and happiness in the world.
@opal perch #8293 @rancid pumice #7306 @indigo sleet #2002 I saved your # just to message you later
indigo sleet
All good desh
rancid pumice
vapid jay
thank you guys!!!!!!!
I have started my training at the company,, ,,,, Looking forward to make use of versatility of Python at my job
vernal lily
congrats, sound awesome π
opal perch
@vapid jay That's awesome man, I'm happy for you, and good luck with your career :D, enjoy it, you deserve it man
neon moat
hi all, just a quick question looking for some opinion. Ive been a freelance python/django web dev for the past two years and have been recently applying for junior python roles. I had an interview today where the technical questions involved drawing out design architecture on paper which completely caught me off guard as i have never done it, nor learnt it. along with some design patterns questions and I wondered it maybe these were a bit too advanced for junior level or is it something i should know?
wondered if *
vast shoal
On the one hand, you are unlikely to get sole responsibility for architecting a system as a junior dev. But on the other, it certainly doesn't hurt to at least be able to provide some constructive input into an architecture discussion. I don't think this should discourage you from trying to apply for more positions, but maybe try to start thinking more about big-picture stuff. I'm sure you have sense for the overall structure of some of the projects you've been working on so far, and maybe you can start reasoning about it in vague terms already. Also, work on your own projects, it forces you to make architectural decisions and think about architectural problems. That kind of experience will benefit you at work as well.
neon moat
@vast shoal thank you, i did talk about the MVC pattern and how it relates to django owns handling of requests-->urls-->views
in terms of architecture and also drawing it out on paper and explaining it better are there any good resources i can learn from?
vast shoal
I think the best way to learn is simply to build a lot of systems yourself. While you're applying, work on your own projects that are similar to the positions you're applying to. Obviously you can't master something like this in a short amount of time, but it doesn't hurt to start learning as soon as possible and it will be beneficial for the future.
Of course, staying up to date with tech that's popular in the industry is a good idea, and think about how it can be used to benefit real projects that you're working on or thinking about.
neon moat
@vast shoal thanks a lot π
raven mica
@neon moat how did you like freelancing? Were you doing it full-time?
neon moat
@raven mica I was doing it full time, i was fortunate that my boss was known through a family friend otherwise i probably would have struggled securing work without a better work history.
Its one of the reasons now i'm looking for work for an established company as a junior dev as working freelance does have its downsides on a CV
@raven mica ofcourse if you are an experienced dev then securing remote/freelance work would be a lot easier im assuming
raven mica
@neon moat yeah that makes sense. I'd love to some freelance stuff part time on the side but it sounds pretty tough to get into and be worthwhile, especially considering all the cut-rate devs offering similar (not that I'm hating on them either).
neon moat
@raven mica dont take my own experience on how the job market is. I have two python/django projects on bitbucket plus some freelance history and im still struggling to find a junior role
@raven mica there is always a more competent developer with more experience willing to work for the same or less money
@raven mica from my own interview experience it is based on a number of things depending on where you interview at, communication skills, team fit, technical ability, ability to have a technical conversation to both technical and non technical people. plus the team needs to like you etc
@raven mica not just the case of passing a tech test and getting hired
raven mica
@neon moat yep that all makes sense to me. I'm not quite ready to make the jump for full-time dev work, though probably in 6 months or so.
neon moat
@raven mica good luck mate, ill let you know if i end up getting hired aswell!
unborn radish
Hey guys, wanted to know what tech I should know before I can claim that I am a 'Fullstack python developer' on my resume.
Because I'm well experienced with flask, HTML, CSS, basic JS, a little Django too, and making and testing APIs
Is that enough or am I missing something?
raven mica
@neon moat good luck to you too!
unborn radish
Ah shit I was hoping to avoid learning more JS I find it very tedious after having used python so extensively for the past year
gilded valley
In order to be able to claim you're a fullstack dev, you really need to be confident with Python REST APIs and at least one JS framework (React is probably the most popular)
You might be able to get away with just learning JQuery
unborn radish
I think I might learn React as soon as I get time
gilded valley
To be honest, React doesn't take too long to learn at a basic level - for what purpose do you need to be able to call yourself a full stack dev?
Just to apply for full stack jobs? If so, it might be worth learning it whilst you apply
unborn radish
Yep that
Also want to have more of an exposure to these frameworks so I can work better in teams and on personal projects too
Not limit myself to just python
neon moat
python devs get same money as full stack so why not just do python?
gilded valley
There are very few "python developer" jobs
unborn radish
Yeah that's what I'm finding, and I need a job
gilded valley
Python is pretty much always used in conjunction with other languages or complex systems
From what I can see
neon moat
im in UK, most jobs are very specialised. Python developer jobs here only require python with experience of use with certain frameworks or databases and understanding of APIs
loads of python dev jobs here
gilded valley
Not at all my understanding
unborn radish
It's a bit worse in India, most people are stuck on legacy systems and don't want to use python
bold niche
?
real python
@bold niche This channel is not for recruitment
bold niche
Recruitment?
It says #career-advice
The previous 10 messages are all about how there is no work out there
mild zenith
This is not a platform for advertising for jobs, paid work, or recruitment to projects
real python
mild zenith
Please don't sass our members for reporting something to us
ashen summit
Hello all,
I have an in-person interview tomorrow
I had a phone screen with the same company last week
We set up the interview on the phone screen, but I am wondering if it will be a technical interview
he never said anything about it
I guess I just fear some sort of pop-quiz-technical-interview type of deal
unborn radish
What was asked in the phone interview? Were the questions technical?
raven mica
@ashen summit If I were in your position, knowing nothing about what's coming, I'd spend equal time on these things: 1. Brush up on technical knowledge - revisit your previous projects and what they taught you. Be able to talk about that with confidence! Don't study leetcode stuff on short notice, with no information telling you it'd be useful. 2. Familiarize yourself with behavioral questions - "tell me about a time that you disagreed with your coworker or boss", etc. Write down some notes on previous experiences and don't be afraid to take a minute to consult them before replying during the interview. It's okay to be nervous and take a moment to develop a good response. 3. Learn a bit about the business itself and what they care about. Even if your understanding is limited, showing them that you are interested in what matters to them can really count. 4. Be ready to talk about what you want to get better at, and don't be shy about mentioning it, even if it's never asked. I've interviewed many people (not for software development, but this is universal) who already believe themselves to be "good enough". Those people offer far less to an organization than people who want to improve themselves.
That was long, but it's a solid approach when you don't know much about what's coming. It's always served me well. Cheers and good luck!
ashen summit
Thank you so much for the response. I just woke up so sorry for late reply. My interview is in an hour and a half guys! Wish me luck!
gilded valley
Good luck
neon moat
Got offered for my first junior python developer job today π
after almost 9 months of trying π
vast shoal
Congratulations!
vapid jay
I know im late but good luck
vernal lily
Good luck ;)
unborn radish
Congratulations! @neon moat
neon moat
@unborn radish thanks a lot!
ashen summit
thanks for the good luck wishes!!!nd congratz to @neon moat ! interview went well, just waiting to hear back now
neon moat
@ashen summit wishing you luck!
ashen summit
Josh, when you say nine months of trying, do you mean you started coding nine months ago or you have been looking for 9 months
neon moat
@ashen summit started coding from scratch about 11 months ago, initally started testing the waters and applying in feb/march time, didnt get anywhere initially, started applying about 6-8 weeks ago and managed to land a junior role
ashen summit
okay we are in the same boat! i started coding this past year as well, started applying 3 months ago... 300 applications later, I am getting some bites! good to know we are not alone!
neon moat
@ashen summit wow, respect to you for sending that many out!
my advice, start going to python meetups, start connecting with recruiters on linkedin and say you are looking for a junior role, get a small portfolio of projects available for employers to look at, and talk about them in depth in interviews!
gilded valley
I'm curious for both of you - what level of formal education do you both have?
neon moat
@gilded valley none
gilded valley
Not even GCSEs? Also, do you mind me asking how old you are roughly and whether you have other career experience?
I'd just like to build a frame of reference for the difficulty of finding a job with a degree vs without
opal perch
Piers considering dropping out now that he has a well established fortune 500 company on his cv
@gilded valley
gilded valley
Mate - I don't need any job other than being the terror of Good Morning Britain
ashen summit
@gilded valley I recently quit my PhD in the humanities, and have an M.A. in East Asian Langs and Culturs
@neon moat Thank you for the advice, that is essentially what i have done
I am working a contracting job now... and have another interview at a different company next week. just trying to get a fulltime, but still happy with the contracting job
@gilded valley idk what GCSEs is, I have no previous career experience. I think the difficulty of finding a job without a degree is how much are you willing to grind? are you self-motivated, can you learn by yourself?
the interviewer told me today that he would rather someone who is self-taught rather than out of UNI, but that is just one dude
gilded valley
I'm currently a CS student myself, I've just heard from others its near impossible to get anywehere without a degree or experience
But I'm glad to hear that isn't quite true
ashen summit
well, I would disagree, if you can make some flask sites for friends and say they were contracted, make an app/video game on your own or with friends, You should be able to land a contracting job
then you have the experience to get a full time job
(hopefully)
then no one will look at your academic record after that
gilded valley
I certainly realise as soon as you've got your first job, no one gives a damn about your uni
ashen summit
hopefully you are not in the US and uni bills are cheaper where you are
I am 80k in the hole now
all for nuttin
gilded valley
Nah, I'm in the UK where tuition fees are stupid, but not incredibly impactful
ashen summit
out of curiosity, how many years have you been studying CS, and what type of programs do professors usually have you writing?
gilded valley
So I only just finished my first year of uni, and I think its fair to say I'm quite far above the curve. But in terms of what was actually assesed in terms of programming/software dev, we went about as far as VERY basic web dev with Flask
ashen summit
okay that is cool. I always am wondering what the difference in a uni/self-taught bg is
opal perch
our uni is not of the level of other unis though
@ashen summit
but I personally think, if you can grind, you can learn all the stuff people learn at uni, in less time, maybe just in a less efficient manner
ashen summit
yes I agree with that. idk about specific levels of uni's outside of the US though
unkempt ferry
ik its not a job yet by any means. but its more than i was allowing myself to hope for, so im excited
torpid bolt
how is 70-90k for new york city?
unkempt ferry
i havent looked at nyc col, but 70k was what i was looking for min for seattle
warped light
@torpid bolt thatβs very good
torpid bolt
i though NYC was very expensive, so that might not be a lot
ashen summit
my father is a software dev in NYC, I told him I would ask for 60k and he said that that is nowhere near enough for a junior dev and I should at least ask 80, and reluctantly resolve at 70k
but here I am working for a startup for 3k/mo so, wtf do i know
torpid bolt
if you can find offers easily, it's ok to test the water with higher demands, i'm not junior, and not in NYC or in the US even, but i was surprised how easy it was to ask for more during my last job change, and i'm someone who is really incomfortable with negociation or asking things
warped light
@torpid bolt nyc is very expensive in terms of living cost. Thatβs why itβs important it have a good salary to help offset the cost of living. Itβs somewhat a combination of things. Such as income tax, expensive apartment rents. Most people in nyc live in an apartment.
and rent keeps going up. Your good if you make 100k or more.
pine forge
Pretty much - if you plan on living in Manhattan/Brooklyn where the jobs mostly are, it's 2100+/month for a 1 br apartment
torpid bolt
yeah, i'm in (well, near) paris and i also live in an appartment, houses are expensive here, but 70k is nice here, not poverty (but a lot of taxes are paid on top of that by the employer, it's not the real salary, more like the part you see, even if you still pay taxes on that)
pine forge
Most tech jobs are probably midtown/downtown
Going from Bronx to there is like an hour by subway
if you can live with that fine
vernal lily
an hour commute is fine
same here in london you get reasonable prices so long as you commute an hour or so
torpid bolt
1h is great to catch up reading
pine forge
I'd personally get a roommate and spare myself the hassle, live upper east/west side
maybe 1500/month. but could probably walk to work in 30 minutes or less
vernal lily
saving over 10k per year by having a commute seems worth
pine forge
lower rent from having roommate wins out for me, plus bronx isn't as safe
vernal lily
I'm not too bothered about safety
where I live in london is a lot less safe than the bronx π
shy pollen
Embrace the kidnappings and gangs on funny little scooters
vernal lily
can confirm they have scooters π
shy pollen
I wonder how much they'd score on a gcse
It would be funny to interview one on politics
vapid jay
My friends tell me they wouldnβt live in the Bronx if it was free cause of safety concerns
Heard itβs getting better tho
analog turtle
where in the bronx
a lot of people who grew up there in the 70s-00s think that
but it depends on the area
there are also some neighborhoods that are slowly gentrifying
vapid jay
No specific place I guess, Iβve just grown up to generalize the Bronx as an unsafe place
I heard the gentrification is causing people to go upstate or out of NY though
This might be going off topic
near oriole
Realistically, how long until I can get freelance work or a job as a programmer with a year of Python experience and the ability to learn quickly?
unborn radish
@near oriole getting freelance jobs will be easy if you don't mind working cheap but a job will be tougher to find
Make sure you have a few projects in your resume
unkempt ferry
70k may b poverty in nyc. but im basically living in poverty as is. might as well be doing something that will put experience in my resume rather than whatever menial job i find elsewhere
vapid jay
why dont you move somewhere else
come to Japan.. you'll land a job easy and get paid loads..
make some money.. go back
@unkempt ferry
final thistle
is that a thing in Japan? are the employeers Japanese?
isn't the language a barrier?
unkempt ferry
how do i know ill get a job easily? whats the visa process like? how will i pay for the ticket over there? do i have to learn the lang first?
@vapid jay
vapid jay
@unkempt ferry as long as you can code.. you'll be fine..
there's lots of developer roles here..
there's no language barrier, but the culture shock will be unpleasant
join international companies.. not Japanese ones, because they are not great to work at and they do have language requirements
unkempt ferry
do the companies generally have relocation assistance? do you have any particular recommendations for companies to try?
vapid jay
International companies here recruit using HR agencies. There's two types of roles- contract roles and permanent ones. Depending on your experience, you can apply to permanent ones, because contract roles will only give you a short term visa. Visa process is like this -> You interview with the company, they give you an offer, you sign, and they apply at immigration for a certificate of eligibility. They will send you the certificate of eligibility if immigration approves, you submit it at Japanese embassy near you and they stamp you a visa on your passport. Done
Apply on LinkedIn, you will get contacts if your resume fits
Companies try to recruit directly through linkedin too, but it's harder to get noticed.. which is why when you apply through hr agencies, you have a higher chance of getting noticed.
But, hr agencies don't care where they place you, so you need to be cautious and do your homework about the companies they offer to land you an interview with.
final thistle
any perks for working in a company there? even if it's international
vapid jay
you can negotiate a good salary
relatively safer than anywhere else in the world
but it's not a nice country to work long term.. local culture is whack when it comes to relationships..
rapid ingot
Isn't anyone taking Freshers?
vapid jay
where
vast shoal
@vapid jay Whack how?
vapid jay
I need to write a book about this.. lol..
just the generally excessive cheating and people treating relationships like social contracts. It's pretty bad.. so bad that it bothers you if you're not from here
vast shoal
You mean it bothers you when others do it, or it bothers you when you are subjected to it when you date locals?
vapid jay
it bothers me when others do it.. because it's so rampant
vast shoal
Two of my coworkers on our Japanese project got together with locals while we were there.
vapid jay
and what happened
vast shoal
Well, nothing in particular, as far as I'm aware.
They're still together, last I heard.
vapid jay
well, from my general experience... by which I mean people complaining to me about theirs, the outlook is grim
unborn radish
Is AngelList any good for getting a job, if anyone has experience using it
neon moat
I hope i'm ok for posting an eternal link. I'm sure some of you know I landed my first job as a junior python dev yesterday. Check out this to help any of you struggling https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/ctkypf/im_100_self_taught_landed_my_first_job_my/
mild zenith
That's actually a really neat post, yeah I don't mind that it's here
neon moat
Thanks a bunch, just hoping to guide anyone that might need a push
mild zenith
unborn radish
@neon moat Congrats again, I'm feeling really inspired after reading that π
mild zenith
The only thing I would add, (unless it's in there and I didn't see this, I was only just quickly browsing through it) is stating the whole "Your mileage may vary" thing.
People learn at different paces, job markets are different, etc.
But yeah, it was good enough for me to want to pin it. Thanks for taking the time to make the post. I don't doubt others will benefit from your time and lessons
torpid bolt
@neon moat 1/ nothing wrong about being motivated by money, as long as you do your job professionaly and are not going to breach trust for better money, (it's ok to leave a role, just be upfront about the reasons and considerate about managing transitions), 2/ i went to school for this and you come off better prepared than i or a number of students i knew were after that
so congrats, really, you invested your time and efforts into a successful carrer change, that's really awesome π
(and yeah, as soon as recruiters starts identifying you, you have to start managing them, they will drown you in requests, lol)
neon moat
@mild zenith Thanks i did mention in the comments by hours worked and what I had to commit.
@unborn radish Many thanks :)
@torpid bolt ofcourse i completely agree regarding money, it was mainly due to my situation at the time for wanting to switch career, ofcourse its the beginnning for me and i have no agenda of no commiting to a company for the sake of a little bit of money
@torpid bolt many thanks aswell π
raven mica
@neon moat it's really impressive how much you appear to have learned in such a short period. Inspirational stuff for sure. Congrats, sounds like you really earned this opportunity!
grizzled trout
@neon moat when I read the URL initially I thought you were 100 years old as the % symbol was omitted. A very impressive journey nonetheless, thanks for sharing
small folio
hey, Im new here, I have self taught myself python and bought some courses, but since I have no experience nor project ideas, I wanted to ask for advices to get my first job
neon moat
@small folio what do u want to do with python
small folio
I like a lot about python and love math, so was thinking in work with ai, machine learning and neural networks
neon moat
@small folio ill be honest with you, i think thats 100% great, however from a employers point of viewv
they may expect formal education
@small folio look into sentdex on youtube, he has a lot of tutorials that may help ypu
you*
final thistle
@neon moat hey man, great post, it's inspiring
I'm in my late 20s as well, aiming to become a developer too... the field wasn't totally alien to me, but I never committed to it, it's nice to know you can just chase a new ~dream~
economy here is poopies so being into something that's supposedly well paid makes it even more attractive...
vast shoal
@neon moat That's a great post, and like others have said, sounds like you really earned your position. Congrats again!
fair sky
Hey currently I'm in grade 12
in IB
which college will be good if I want to programmer
vast shoal
What country are you in?
lunar harness
I mean, you dont need to go to a good college to be a good programmer
hazy trout
Anyone looking for assistance using social media (and specifically LinkedIn) to find career opportunities?
vast shoal
@hazy trout Just for the record, recruitment is forbidden on this server. While I'm not sure I understand what your offer is, it sounds like it might border on what could be classified as recruitment. So, just keep that in mind.
hazy trout
@vast shoal I'm not recruiting anybody for any specific offer or any company
just offering assistance using the tool LinkedIn to find jobs wherever you want to work. i've got no skin in the game
vast shoal
Ok, just wanted to inform you, in case you didn't know.
vapid jay
@hazy trout when you have a chance, can you explain your offer a little more? I'm very close to looking for a job, and LinkedIn was one column of my plan
mint gate
@fair sky you don't need to go to college to be a great programmer and in my opinion i think its better to be self taught as i personally get more out of it then listening to a instructor or someone telling me what to do but to each there own if you think college is what you need go for it man
a lot of times people are not looking solely for a degree there looking for what you can do if someone self taught with no schooling was better then the person with the person self taught would probs get hired im not 100% against college im just saying its not even close to required to be a "good programmer"
fair sky
Hmm but I need it.
vivid dock
It's nice to have if you're able to do it and afford it, makes entry jobs easier I'd imagine, but doesn't make you a good programmer
Your hard work makes you a good programmer, not the verification of a professor / lecturer
torpid bolt
whever you go to a CS school or not, you need to be self taught to be a dev as well imho, it's a job that rewards learning, a lot.
vale heart
even in university youll be doing a large amount of self learning
theyre not going to spoon feed and program all the knowledge into you
unborn radish
I think the whole college thing differs a lot depending on the country you're in
In India it's extremely tough to find a developer job where they will even consider your resume if you don't have a bachelor's degree
fair sky
Actually I'm doing IB. So I'll go abroad. But I'm not sure where
ember flower
I think that University is better than self-learning, especially because you learn way more theory in University than you would do alone. You can code by yourself, but it's more difficult learning math theory alone I think.
torpid bolt
it's true, and to work in big companies like GAFA or whatever is the accronym these days, it's required to have that theorical baggage i believe, in most work only a fraction if it will be necessary
things like data normalisation can be quite useful if you want to do efficient web applications, for example
vapid jay
i want to be a professional truck driver
torpid bolt
hm, not saying that's wrong, but you might want to have backup plans, that job might be gone for good in 10 years
(might be, it's not sure, by far, but the demand is certainly going to be lower than now)
and it's not a well paying job currently afaik, and you are never home, which can be a problem when you have a family
ashen summit
hey all
so I was offered a position as a wordpress "developer"
pay is not bad, 60k/yr, as an entry level dev (only 8 months of experience freelancing)
I am wondering if I take this job for 6mo ~ yr, will it hurt my future prospects at getting a "real developer" job
I know Flask, Angular, Django and would say I am very capable in those frameworks.
but it is not easy finding a job with no professional experience... wondering if working as a WP dev would even help me in the long run?
unborn radish
I think you should try for a little while more, you'll probably find an actual developer job if you do know those frameworks well.
ashen summit
so you think I should turn down the offer?
it is so hard, because I just want a job
but I do not want to waste my time
I have another interview
for a real dev job
but I may or may not get it,
unborn radish
I think you should turn it down
You'll probably feel very undervalued doing wordpress
And a couple months of waiting may end up making more financial sense in the long run
You'll get paid more and probably enjoy the work more too
torpid bolt
if you are uncomfortable turning it down, it's ok to say you need some time, though of course, they might find somebody else, but i also think it's probably better for you not to get into a job that would put you in a direction you are uncomfortable with
it's not impossible to change direction after a first job, so it's not a catastrophe if you can't wait and get this job, but i would advise waiting a little if you can
vapid jay
Hello, do prospective hirers come here? I'm a Python Dev, a little over 1.5 years exp, looking for second job.
raven mica
@vapid jay I believe the purpose of this channel is more for discussion. Recruiting here is actually against the rules, from my understanding.
vapid jay
Aw, damn
Well, I guess I could use some advice. Right now, I need some money ASAP. I don't have weeks to wait for a new official job, so how could I earn freelance income in the meantime?
humble elm
Fiverr and places like that are great if you can offer competitive pricing (like cents per hour otherwise there is some indian dude that will outbid you)
vapid jay
Too bad I don't live in India.
Welp, fuck, looks like I'm going to be homeless in the near future.
Pardon my French, I had a glass of wine.
rare sand
@vapid jay that's rough. hope you figure it out.
finding acceptably paid, reliable freelance work isn't much easier than finding a full time job. might be harder.
we use upwork a lot at the company where I work during times of intense pressure, and we've found some quality devs there that we ended up bringing onto the team permanently. they earn a fair salary now. but you kind of need to do it for a while in order to be able to compete with established profiles.
still, it might be worth a try. it's a lot better than fiverr
vivid dock
Freelancing from what I've heard is a lot more about connections if you want to make more than pennies
Heck, visit your local (non big brand) hairdresser and ask if they need a new website
unborn radish
Hahahaha
vivid dock
Probably helps if you checkout if they have a website, or how it's setup first 
g
shy pollen
Hey kids, do you want a new website? Only Β£250 per pop!
golden eagle
how do i know when to look for opportunities
i feel like i still have so far to go, granted i've only been learning for a short while, and i'm only moving on to classes in python now
but i will always have more to learn, so when do i know when i'm good enough?
torpid bolt
there is always more to learn, and you will always think "well i'm not an expert in this" but that's ok, you are good enough when you can achieve things that solve problems ,and you can solve problems with these when they arise. It helps to work with people who have a bit more experience than you and can give you tips and point at things to learn. To know that, you have to build things and show them to people, and discuss what's good or bad about these things you built.
and applying to jobs that you have at least some of the requirements (unless it's stated that all are necessary, it can be ok if you have only some), just be open about what you know and did, vs what you don't and didn't
golden eagle
that helps. thanks!
crisp nexus
I need any job
I quit my job at a warehouse today lol
My resume looks like poop
25yo burnout floater
torpid bolt
π
it's never a good thing to be in need, makes you accept bad options
it's a lot easier to look for a better job when you already have a job
anyway, if you don't know programming and need a job right away, i would say don't think about learning programming just yet, work on your resume, research options you can get into, write cover letters for them, explaining why you are the right fit for the job (not bragging, just making a strong case for yourself, and relating it to the specific job), and send them to as many as you can, think quality over quantity, but you still want quantity if possible, it's better to have multiple options to chose from than accepting the first one
vapid jay
So this is a 'How do you get experience without experience' type question -
I'm seeing a lot of ads these days asking for experience with AWS or Google Cloud.
Although none of my jobs involved cloud stuff I play a lot in the evenings and kinda know it.
I guess my question is, anyone here jumped a technology chasm before, in terms of 'experience at x'?
How did you do it?
For instance, developers getting data scientist jobs, or AI jobs, or whatever?
unborn radish
It would probably help if you have a couple projects that have used AWS or Google Cloud, that'll show the employer you know about those technologies
vapid jay
@crisp nexus you might want to read this https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/ctkypf/im_100_self_taught_landed_my_first_job_my/
rare sand
@vapid jay cmon dude.
vapid jay
ok.. let me rephrase it better..
which job boards should I use to find some good data engineers that don't rely entirely on public cloud services
(I hope this is okay.. really not sure)
worn nymph
I've jumped stacks a couple times. PHP -> Python, Python -> C#, C# -> Frontend JS, Frontend JS -> Python
Knowing software design patterns is always more important than the language itself.
vapid jay
I need to look into careers
unkempt ferry
it Could very much fall gh at this point. but i have a verbal offer for part time project based tech work!!!!
torpid bolt
congrats π
it's ok to keep looking if you are not sure you are going to get it, or ever if it's not the best offer you could get, if more things turn up, having choice is good π
(though, chosing is hard, most important things are not mesurable/comparable, at least at a glance)
vagrant badge
is it possible to make $ix figures with only Python?
analog turtle
on its own, doubt it, at least outside the SF area where 6 figures doesn't get you far anyway. if you have other useful skills (data science, business domain experience, data engineering) then python can certainly help you get there
vapid jay
@unkempt ferry congratulations! Could you briefly explain how you got it? I'm in the exact same place.
unkempt ferry
thanks, @torpid bolt! yeah I'm still looking for a full time position somewhere. bc this is part time at min wage so its definitely not a final solution but it will help with my resume and ill be able to learn a lot doing it!
@vapid jay ive just been trying to network as much as possible using meetup.com. i was looking for yhe next tech meetup this morning at 9:40, realized there was one this morning at 10 and decided to go randomly. turned out to just be me and the guy running the meetup. so after a couple hours of just chatting about tech stuff he asked if id be interested in taking on projects here and there that he wanted to off load
oh also i forgot to mention, he knows im still looking for 'real' employment and thats one of the things he said was 'if you get an offer fulltime somewhere theres no problem breaking off, but if youre interested in the mean time blah blah blah' so im really excited!
torpid bolt
nice
near oriole
Are there more freelance work opportunities in backend, frontend, or mobile development?
vapid jay
what's bitbucket and how do I use it (dont have a choice)
shy pollen
Like gitlab/github but meh
vapid jay
hmmm I need to ramp up in one evening.. do you think it's doable
shy pollen
Think of gitlab if a weird navbar was its only real way of navigation
And a zoomed in blue theme
vapid jay
@unkempt ferry thanks for answering
unkempt ferry
np! i wish you the best of luck. i do really reccomend getting out and meeting people in your area. i had a great time and made other connections as well
vapid jay
yeah I haven't even begun with that yet. so far its been nothing but building up my skills for the past year or so. I'm lightyears better now than I was then, I think it just comes down to getting more people to know my value
drifting mica
If Iβm looking for a dev job, on my resume should I put a link to my LinkedIn or make my own website and link it?
gilded valley
Either is fine - but if you're like me then you'll forget to keep the website up to date which could be detrimental in the future
golden cedar
vapid jay
probably the wrong place to ask
vapid jay
what kind of beginner dev jobs do you guys look for?
vivid dock
Wha ever is available that id tolerate
I applied for a php job once and just said no thanks later in the process cause i figured out i hate php
But basically any job that has an acceptable stack, and no 5+ years experience requirements
frank valley
holy shit!!!!!!
vapid jay
Good job dude
frank valley
How far can i schedule my on-site interview? is 1.5 - 2 weeks acceptable
the company is pretty large, over 1,000 employees
rare sand
2 weeks is pushing the limits of what I'd say was acceptable.
I usually explain that I'm very excited, my schedule is flexible and that I'd be happy to come in next week whenever is convenient for them.
serene sundial
Hi all, first time posting here - any teachers who have transitioned into a career in programming/data science? I've been a language teacher (EFL abroad) for 10 years hoping to transition into a Data Science career and looking for anyone with similar experiences. I have an MA in Applied Linguistics and want to make use of my degree and background, I'm thinking language research or natural language processing is the way to go... I've been teaching myself Python for just a short time but really enjoy it and always enjoyed programming. Thanks for your time!
vapid jay
Hello, I am currently taking A levels in the UK, im studying maths,physics and computer science with the hopes of going on to do either a degree in computer science and mathematics or computer science and artificial intelligence (preferred) i was looking for some work experience/internship opportunities for summer next year however every place i have looked has a requirement of working towards bacelorretes or masters i was wondering if anybody knows of places i could look with possible opportunities for people at my stage to do work experience for the summer ? ty
tl;dr looking for work experience for next year summer but all require working towards a degree which i wont of started yet but will be starting after the summer
vivid dock
I'd say just ty to apply nontheless as some form of intern
vapid jay
would i email like customer support or smth?
vivid dock
They probably have some HR email, depends on the size of the place youre applying
Place I got an internship at I more or less emailed the owner directly, but they were a small startup
vapid jay
that sounds good, ty for the advice. where do you find startups?
vivid dock
Mostly where youd find other jobs.
Could look for shared office locations, there are often multiple startups in the same building sharing an open office
vapid jay
i see i see, thanks a bunch :)
abstract dock
Hey guys, quick question?
I applied for a position as full stack dev (python/flask focused) at this company a little over a month ago (I took a simple quiz on their stack back in july) and they just got back to me the other day saying that they wanted to schedule a phone interview with me for 30 minutes.
What are some things that I should mention and things that I shouldn't say?
abstract dock
c: ok lol im super nervous but hopefully i finesse
abstract dock
its not an onsite but yeah youre right ill probably get a work out in before the phone call to relax my mind c: solid advice thanks
foggy birch
wheres a good place to drop my resume to get advice on?
rare sand
provided you don't dox yourself, maybe this channel
tacit frigate
Anyone here who didn't do CS at university (or did another irrelevant degree to CS) that now works in it?
whole mulch
@lusty nova thereβs a community dedicated to people programming discord bots in python
Simply searching up the discord py discord (no pun intended) should net you plenty of experts in the field, who I can attest to their knowledge
Iβm making a small bot for a game community but itβs not worth much nor all that complex
craggy wave
@lusty nova Our community is not meant for recruitment.
craggy wave
You were still talking about making thousands of dollars and that doesn't sound like it belongs in our community
keen tulip
@forest trail lol your 11?
unkempt ferry
depends on laws and what kind of work and stuff. where i used to live almost everything required u be at least 18 iirc (short of like, having parental permission/emancipation or ehatever its called)
vapid jay
whether hes 11 or 13, good on him for being here learning python.
unkempt ferry
well. if hes less than 13 hes breaking tos
vapid jay
Β―_(γ)_/Β―
vestal zodiac
you can definitely pick up a job before sixteen
esp if its like
part time at a maccies
@forest trail @unkempt ferry
unkempt ferry
it depends on ur local laws @vestal zodiac
vestal zodiac
yeah that's true ig
vapid jay
Legally you can work if you're 14yo here
vapid jay
yep. if programming is something that interests you, you are setting yourself up for an awesome future
forest trail
i aint 11 haha in holland legal age to really work is 18 lol, but i honestly dont care
humble elm
18-5=13
vapid jay
After studying pyrhon, do I need to study django and flask?
gilded valley
It depends on where you want to go, but if you want to do web development, then yeah you need one or the other really
Flask is also just a very useful thing to know, even used in the datascience world to expose scripts somewhat often
vapid jay
Um, I see. Thanks for the response guys π
forest trail
@humble elm shhhh
humble elm
Haha
static compass
@vapid jay
I took a trip last month down web development, flask, pymongo, css, html and js. (all vanilla).. and am now able to build clean, functional websites and api's coming from a more advanced beginner in python... with litte knowledge in html, css and no knowledge with js
gilded valley
'pymongo' can't be that clean if its using MongoDB
static compass
Whats wrong with mongo?
gilded valley
vapid jay
@static compass sounds awesome, bud
I intend to build apps and sites for them, but now I have to focus on the basics
static compass
this is one of the sites I built
vapid jay
That's cool!
static compass
If you get past the basics
vapid jay
Hopefully I will
static compass
(It's really overwhelming and boring), you can become a web developer in about a month
vapid jay
I need to watch 110 more videos just to learn python
static compass
Watching video after video isn't the way to go
vapid jay
I'm practicing on my phone
static compass
Watch a video, do an excercise
vapid jay
Coding a lot. And it's helping me at least
That's what I do lol
5 exercises per vid
Right now they're challenging
static compass
When you feel like you've learnt what functions are, build something useful
Nice one
Then fight through the boredom
vapid jay
I've built a calculator and a simple software/thingy to calculate discounts
static compass
Nice one
vapid jay
π
vapid jay
Are you focused on mobile only?
static compass
correct
vapid jay
But, to target people with the right ads you need to know stuff about machine learning, right?
static compass
Nah
static compass
You don't need to learn machine learning
vapid jay
And if you do learn, will it help you?
static compass
You can target mobile users on fb
I'm sure it will help me
But I'm trying to move on from a scripter
to a programmer
static compass
And i'm at the overwhelming and boring beginner stage
vapid jay
I'm enjoying this stage π
static compass
I hated it
Well, when you script, you don't think about data structures, memory allocations and you don't look deep into algorithms
vapid jay
O
vapid jay
That's a lot to learn
static compass
Yeah...
vapid jay
Hopefully you will succeed
static compass
Appreciate it bro, likewise
vapid jay
I'm being honest π
static compass
I won't give up, I want this so much
static compass
sure, feel free to add me
vapid jay
I used to program PLC's, but it was in boolean not python
I will π
static compass
damn, thats real oldschool
vapid jay
Now I'm going back to finish my exercises, what is it?
You can program PLC's in 5 languages
The first 3 are easy and the last 2 are what we call "real programming"
static compass
Ahh, just me being a beginner I guess π
vapid jay
π it's okay, I hate PLC's
When I finished my technical course I programmed them for 2 years then I quit. Now I'm studying EE and python π π
static compass
damn, you will have an easier time getting into python than most then π
vapid jay
I'm understanding pretty fast the basic concepts so far, but I ask a lot here :D
grizzled trout
I've been offered a place in a Computing Master's Qualifier course from a decent university.
The first year is general computer science and in second year we either specialize in advanced software development or data analytics.
Does anyone know how easy it would be to transfer from a data analytics role to a data scientist?
gilded valley
My understanding is that to be a data scientist currently, you really need a phd
Also, in the UK at least, a masters is pretty worthless vs just a bachelors. But sure about the rest of the world though
grizzled trout
Okay well I'm based in Ireland so I'm guessing it's somewhat similar. Will have to do some more research.
vapid jay
@gilded valley can't you get a certification online?
simple elm
hey everybody
I know this guy who is talking about careers in software engineering on twitch
ttv jondouglasdev
raven mica
@vapid jay sorry for butting into a conversation I wasn't part of but what did you mean specifically about programming PLCs in 5 languages, 2 of them being "real programming"? I work with PLCs a bit, and I'm not familiar with that. I'm still a little new to PLCs though, more of my background is with DCS (DeltaV in particular, if that means anything to you). I'm working toward a career in software development, but I'm asking because I'd like to continue to get better at my current job along the way, too.
vapid jay
I meant the harder ones. You can program it in 5 different ways:
Ladder diagram (LD)
Sequential Function Charts (SFC)
Function Block Diagram (FBD)
Structured Text (ST)
Instruction List (IL)
The last 2 languages are the most difficult among the 5, that's what I meant
@raven mica
I learned about how to program it with a book, it's in Portuguese so idk if that will help.
raven mica
@vapid jay cool, thanks for the info! DeltaV is largely FBD and their batch systems are SFC, I've seen LD before, but never IL. My first Python project, actually, was used to improve an extremely tedious process that I had to deal with, and it did so by parsing the ST that DeltaV spits out when you export parts (or even all) of a given industrial system. Anyway. I don't blame you for wanting to get away from that, haha. I love the idea of industrial controls, it's fascinating to me, but it's a shame how mundane and boring most of the jobs in that field are.
vapid jay
Industrial controls seem fun to most people, but I'm more into creating apps for android/iOS, windows and sites. I hope you enjoy PLC's
grave gate
π PLCs
vapid jay
They're hella fun.
karmic sluice
Hello
neon moat
hello there π
vapid jay
How are you?
grizzled trout
What are PLCs?
lost pecan
i think its this one
A Programmable Logic Controller, or PLC, is more or less a small computer with a built-in operating system (OS).
sullen pebble
Is knowing "pure" python a marketable skill? I'd like to think I'm fairly comfortable with python but I don't know any of the libraries that it's commonly used with, i.e. discord.py, django, flask, tensorflow
So is python on its own marketable?
frigid urchin
if you know python enough you should be able to adjust to any library easily.
sullen pebble
Potentially, it'd take a few months atleast though to get comfortable with it and have a practical knowledge base
But I'm looking at applying for some internships now
unkempt ferry
start applying and start trying to learn one.
raven mica
@grizzled trout yep it's the little devices that are programmed to control automated manufacturing.
(has nothing to do with Python)
vapid jay
^
During my course me and my friends programmed a PLC responsible for our elevator automation
torpid bolt
@sullen pebble certainly ok for an internship i'd say. Eck, of these i only know flask (and i'm not an expert in it), and i'm lead dev in a startup, i know other things, but you never know all the thingsβ¦
You'll learn the libs you need when you need them
vapid jay
Is it possible to create websites and apps for smartphones and windows using phyton?
torpid bolt
Yes
vapid jay
Cool
torpid bolt
i did a lot of windows apps with python and kivy (one of the gui options i care a lot about), and a few android ones as well, and as a lot of people here i guess, my work involve working on a website done in python
vapid jay
That's amazing! Does it take too long to learn the fundamentals?
torpid bolt
It's never βjustβ python, you alwyus have other things to learn, but python is pretty useful for this
vapid jay
Oh
torpid bolt
Well, the python synthax is pretty simple, but if it's your first language you also need to learn the basics of programming, which takes a lot of practice (which often involves a lot of frustration and doubts about your own intelligence), but any real task in programming involve learning a little about a lot of related things, and sometime a lot about a particular things, so even if your do a python tutorial in a few days or week, it won't be enough to do these things right away.
lunar harness
Python's a very friendly language to learn the basics of programming. After you learn the basics it becomes easier to learn other programming languages
vapid jay
It's my first language and it'll take me 1 month to watch all the videos about it. Are these other languages necessary?
final thistle
I don't code for a living (yet), but you don't want to use a single language for everything
vapid jay
Why not?
final thistle
you'll find out there are things that work better in other languages, maybe because they are more efficient for what you need, maybe because there isn't a library for what you need in Python...
reef marsh
languages are, at the end, tools to communicate and use certain technologies - they were created with different purposes
final thistle
or maybe because you need a complex library but it was abandoned in 2007 and it's super buggy so you'd rather use a different thing or make a binding for a library compiled from a different language
reef marsh
Learning python first has its pros and cons
Pros: It's very friendly, small-talk, great community ( look at us! )
Cons: It gonna spoils you rotten with its syntax
vapid jay
I'm scared now π
final thistle
or if not a binding make a new program so you have 2 programs that talk to each other
I'm scared now
meh, Python offers a lot
vapid jay
It does
reef marsh
It's easier to think of what you want to do, then pick the technologies you need to know, then finally things you need to master those technologies
For example, front end dev - you should know about single page, pwa, models, oop
then down to frameworks - flask, nodejs, angular, react
finally down to languages - python, js, css, html, c#, .net
vapid jay
Wow, there are a lot of things to study
vast shoal
You don't need all of those for every single project, though.
Some of those do the same thing.
In different ways.
reef marsh
^ you will want to pick the fittest to what you have in mind
They offer different advantages over the other, pick one to suit your needs
final thistle
do everything in Brainfuck
reef marsh
Sometime mastering only one of them can get you a job for life
vast shoal
Or, ask someone else which ones are good for whatever project you want to do.
reef marsh
That works too xD
final thistle
btw, are "data science programmers" good at math?
reef marsh
Should be proficient at least
final thistle
I mean, I'm not sure if I should pursue that, I guess I could check it out
vapid jay
And how do I know which languages are the best for my projects? Experience or is there a site that shows?
final thistle
I don't like math, but it's something I know I can handle after taking time with it
vapid jay
I love math π€£
reef marsh
iirc I read somewhere and it says "Data Science should always be about Science not Data" - it'll be hypothesis and modeling and identifying and quantifying etc
At the very least you should be proficient in basic geometry, theorem, graphing and plotting, series, Cartesian and polar coordinates and other basics stuff like complex numbers, etc
final thistle
And how do I know which languages are the best for my projects? Experience or is there a site that shows?
I used to Google it or ask
reef marsh
It's better to consult a senior dev
final thistle
but, there are languages that are part of huh... "bundled" with other things
reef marsh
Like the difference between tornado / sanic / django can be hard to see
final thistle
if you're making games with Unity, you'll write C#, if you want to write Android applications, you'll probably pick Java or Kotlin since the community writes in those languages
vapid jay
Oh I see
final thistle
but you still can write an Android app in other languages
reef marsh
It's more than that
Why python has pygame, and we all know for the same application, you write 1/3 less codes in python - the dev time required to dev in python is so optimized it gonna spoil you
final thistle
I don't even need to end my speech, he'll do it for me
reef marsh
But when it comes to absolute performance, you need to go back to lower level programming
I mean, I probably interrupted what you were trying, it's my bad
Please go on
final thistle
no I was just kidding lmao
it was along those lines
@vapid jay ah, you can also use a language for prototyping stuff, too, then develop in a different one
idk if that's common, I do it
rare sand
pretty common.
vast shoal
@vapid jay It's a bit of a shifting landscape with new languages popping up and gaining popularity and other languages gradually becoming less favored, but if you google it and get some suggestions, you're probably not going to get heavily penalized for picking the "wrong" thing. It's not a great idea to try to develop a 3D game engine in Python, but you're probably not gonna find anybody suggesting that you pick Python for your 3D game engine project anyway.
final thistle
@reef marsh excuse my poor sense of humor, you did well
reef marsh
Oh no dont worry about it, I was afraid of interrupting
final thistle
are data science and web dev the two big fields in Python?
I read something about it being widely used for security without further explanation
vapid jay
You guys clarified a lot of things, thank you each one of you. I'm going to focus on learning python then search on the internet for tips, as you said. π
I'm really into apps and sites.
vast shoal
Feel free to ask questions about what technologies to use here as well.
torpid bolt
Build something really simple once you learned the basics, and i really mean really simple, something you think you can do in a day will likely take you a week, something you plan a month would take a year, more that that you might not finish :p
vast shoal
I think anything that would take a year to finish is pretty unlikely to get done. π
vapid jay
@vast shoal why's that?
vast shoal
Well, it's pretty common for people to start a lot of projects and not finish them.
If you don't have some kind of external motivation to complete a project (such as a salary), it's easy to get demotivated and give up once it doesn't feel novel and fun anymore.
reef marsh
- Build something
- stuck
- google, ask, read, refactor
- rebuild
- back to 2
- why are you here, back to 2
^ this is me couple offirst projects
vapid jay
What you said apply to a lot of things in life.
reef marsh
Not to mention you may lose your focus / motivation as other ideas occurred to you
vapid jay
When I was 6yo I started studying english on my own. If I had no motivations I'd have quit quickly π€£
@reef marsh if the person starts only 1 project, will that help?
reef marsh
Depending on the knowledge when you have it at the start, how big / difficulty it will be, and how committed you are
I'd suggest smaller projects first
Bigger stuff is often series of smaller stuff
vast shoal
It's not that big of a deal if you don't finish every project anyway. You still learn a lot from unfinished projects, and that better equips you for future ones.
vapid jay
Thanks for the tips! God this server has a lot of helpful people
obtuse ridge
hey you guys got any productivity/organizational tips while working python?
humble elm
less distractions is better. i say this while i should be working on something...
obtuse ridge
LOL
right?
anyways, the plan is to import a bunch of modules and use that as a practice tool while learning python
the modules are awesome
whole mulch
Hmm Iβm making a discord bot, do you think guys think it could be monetized?
gilded valley
No
There are lots and lots of free Discord bots out there
And unless you have a very unique idea it is unlikely that you could effectively monetise it
frigid urchin
also if it takes a lot of server power sure
torpid bolt
When you search for something and find an answer you don't understand, look up the things in official docs of their project
If you use a specific lib a lot, read at least the start of it'e documentation
zealous ibex
guys do you have any ideas about getting clients as an freelance data analyst ? just asking.
or like to get free work for experience as a data analyst
gilded valley
Have you actually spoken to anyone who is a 'freelance data analyst'? It sounds remarkably like a job that doesn't need to exist to me
atomic ermine
how can i get a job that requires very little thinking and has a high salary
vapid jay
leverage and connections to an extreme level. if you don't have those, its far more practical to just start anywhere, and leapfrog from there
atomic ermine
i ask for a job that requires little thinking because im not smart. I do not have connections and I do not understand what you mean by leapfrog
i at least want a livable wage
but I want a job were i don't make any decisions or anything
final thistle
what does "I'm not smart" mean?
vapid jay
jobs exist as an exchange of resources for value. the more valuable you are, the greater the "cost" to whoever hires you
intelligence or knowledge is pretty much the primary way you get value
grizzled trout
So how possible is it to get into a data science role with a masters in data analytics?
vapid jay
you don't have to program, maybe you're better at talking to people, or handcrafting stuff. doing that might be what suits you, and there are people in those roles making a killing
shy pollen
You can't get a $15 per hour job doing literally nothing with no skill or connections to anyone
vapid jay
as for leapfrogging, I mean starting with an entry level position, increasing your skills, and from there either get promoted at your current job, or find a superior position at another company
my friends father did that when he moved to the US from India, pretty much a few notches above being homeless, and he now makes 250-300k/yr
he started as a janitor
atomic ermine
does the job he have currently require a lot of thinking?
vapid jay
he imports musical instruments from india and owns some percentage of a few restaurants, so I'd assume a little
I don't know why you're so fixated on something that requires thinking lol
to get by in life, you'll need to think
shy pollen
Processing..
vapid jay
Is kotlin the official android programming language now?
vapid jay
Interesting
vapid jay
I know a programmer who started with a degree in english..
everything she learned, she taught herself.. now has 8 years of experience
vapid jay
Wow that's a lot of dedication
humble elm
ok
craggy wave
@outer steeple This server is not for shitposting.
craggy wave
I want to be the janitor at valve and build my favorate game dota 2
That does not sound serious.
outer steeple
damn autocorrect
dota 2 is a real game developed by valve (a gaming company)
i want to know what path to take in order to be a game dev at a company like it
humble elm
probably not python tbh
valve has its own game engine. not sure if dota2 uses that but most game engines are c# or cpp
humble elm
if you want to work specifically at valve on dota 2 id learn their language
outer steeple
ok ty
vapid jay
@outer steeple I think it would kind of help, because python is an easier language so new programmers can understand the general concepts of coding better when they move on to stuff like C and stuff
stark hollow
a
trail mantle
I may not be qualified to comment, but I've noticed that knowing more than one language gives u a deeper understanding of others, because it forces you to learn what one language is/isn't capable of, or more specifically, what's easier to do with one than the other, and proceeding from there. So yeah python isn't really a game dev language, but it wouldnt hurt to learn it since, especially as a first language since compiler languages are scary to a lot of new people
earnest quail
?
unkempt ferry
on job apps if i do self id my gender do i have to put my legal gender?
earnest quail
Google it loo
humble elm
@unkempt ferry depends on your country
unkempt ferry
i tried, couldn't find anything
usa
the ones ive been applying for today have been gender at least
earnest quail
What do you have on your driver's license
If you legally changed it you can use what's on your driver's license
Name/Gender
humble elm
yeah id go by passport/drivers license
humble elm
but you can always add in later what you think of your gender
earnest quail
They don't look at sex/gender/ect
It's separate from the resume
So it shouldn't effect you anyways
But if you're serious about it change ur id gender or whatever
Then go off that
Most states let you do it online for like 5-7 bucks idk if u can change that but I've ordered new IDs online when I've moved
So I'd image you can change it the same way
humble elm
at least in Germany im pretty sure its illegal to hire based on gender and you dont have to put your gender on your resume. i have never put mine on.
earnest quail
Yeah don't include your gender on a resume ever
Lol
Resume should just include an objective qualifications and job history/education
And ofc your name up top but still
Name and contact information
humble elm
oh nice! in germany you dont have to tell them when or where you were born, what gender you have, if you have a family, your nationality, a picture of you and your religion.
earnest quail
That has nothing to do with applying for anjob
humble elm
for some reason a picture is something you see a lot in Germany.
earnest quail
Oh
Not here
They look down upon that
Most people reviewing your resume looks at it for 20-30 seconds
So you need to make your objective and qualifications pop
humble elm
a few years ago when we learnt about writing a resume in school, we were told to put a picture on it. not just any but straight up like a professional pic
loud kite
not in the states ha
earnest quail
Yeah
humble elm
not really a problem when you are as handsome as me
loud kite
lol exactly
earnest quail
I don't think they really care how you look
They need to know if you can perform the job
humble elm
you cant really sue for anything in germany BUT you can sue over being fired for pretty much every type of discrimination
earnest quail
Well if ur like covered in tatts
No one will hire you
And those ugly guge ear things
loud kite
the video game companies will
loud kite
i came across lots of heavily tatted folks in that industry lol
earnest quail
But you shoot yourself in the foot doing that
loud kite
yeah i agree
earnest quail
Never will do management
humble elm
for some time before 2006 restaurants were allowed to deny you if you had visible tats.
because it might frighten customers.
earnest quail
They will never consider you for a management position or any other
humble elm
i find that very german
earnest quail
You'll be kept in the backroom
swift veldt
There was a similar view in France but I've met directors in financial consulting with visible tats on the arms and neck. So culture changes even if slowly.
frigid urchin
did anyone have an actual work that was out of their country fully remote ? I am not sure if those exist but should I look for one ? the current economy in my country is a bit too bad.
I did some freelance work but those are not actual jobs