but one thing that could work better is freelance web developer
#career-advice
echo crown
tacit plank
I will make more simple question then
Is their a way to earn from 1k-2k in a total of 4 month try harding by programming from scratch
main thicket
I think most will have a hard time learning enough in 4 months to be competitive enough to start earning proper money
tacit plank
Just completing payed tasks
Ok is a shamd
I'd look for a job with flexible schedules and learn programming later then
Thanks boys
celest anvil
Hey guys, do you feel that going to a university which does not require calculus for a CS major would put me at a disadvantage? I intend to apply to a few and aforementioned would be the most likely to get acepted
main thicket
not really, calculus is mostly useless for CS stuff
unless you plan on transitioning onto ML stuff, you're likely fine
vernal lily
maybe if the thing you are modelling needs calculus
physics etc
but this is specialists
main thicket
the people that do those modelling things generally arent CS people
celest anvil
thank you both! on the other hand its a way smaller name but im told that doesnt matter too much at the end of the day either
coarse notch
Might be a stupid question, how do I know if I'm good enough at coding python to try to get a freelance job ?
manic fossil
@main thicket What is a grad school for you ? In Belgium, if we want to do a master degree, we can only apply to Universities, idk how the american/canadian system works about that. You say that GPA and research matter but we can't do any research in our bachelor degree, can we ? The master degree is what you do after your 3 years of bachelor in CS, right ?
main thicket
@manic fossil It's not uncommon to do research projects and get published as an undergrad in the US, Canada, UK, Aus, NZ, etc.
you're helping out with a professor or something's research project and so you usually get second author
vernal lily
getting publihshed as an undergrad is a big deal if you can do that
main thicket
I wouldnt say it's a "big deal" -> it's not too uncommon for the kind of undergrads that are aiming for PhDs etc
but yeah, it's a boost for grad applications
manic fossil
Holy, I didn't know it was even possible lol. I'm not aiming for PhD though, just aiming to do a MS in a good Canadian uni and so need to get accepted as an European student. That's why I'm willing to do everything I can now, to stand out when I'll be applying.
In that case, would you reach professors from your department to say that you'll be happy to help them out or smth like that ? I feel like it might be more a waste of time for them
vernal lily
professors are pretty approachable
we had to approach many profs for our dissertation anyway
main thicket
Almost exactly that, yeah. Find a prof you like, ask them you're interested in research and if they have any projects. Professors are huuuge nerds and will drone on about their work for hours so someone showing interest in their work is something they like
vernal lily
you don't become a prof without big passion for the subject yeah
its a long road to prof
manic fossil
Haha that's a bit a lie because I'm not that interested about research, just wanna get a good resume that might open doors afterwards but I get the idea 😃
toxic vessel
Depends on the job and how good you’ve become in the short time. Can’t put give you an estimate of that based on time. I know people who’ve put 15 years into python and also people who are very smart and blew past me in some number of months who have a dev background
I will say that while python has tons of general purpose uses the biggest areas of growth right now are in the machine learning and AI areas and such. Those are...... hard
What do you build now? Do you have code online? It’s not a question that can be easily answered abstractly, it’ll be left to your specific skillset and whatnot. Wouldn’t hurt to have deeper knowledge of CS concepts in general
Computer science
Okay just for the record, the crypto/blockchain space is among the most difficult fields around. Nobody will pick that up quickly from scratch, it takes years for projects to release stuff. It takes 3 industries that were already very hard in their own — cryptography, security, and distributed systems — and shoves them into one
That said, there are some decent Medium posts I’ve seen that show you how to make a basic blockchain in python
As far as node communication, there’s stuff out there for that too. You would do well to learn how to make socket servers and clients with python which will help
You will be able to talk to other nodes you build
Further up than that, you can check out things like kademlia, which has an excellent python implementation
kademlia is what the BitTorrent protocol used for nodes and consensus, and what many crypto projects including ethereum based their own from
It’s also async python which is a whole other ball of wax if you haven’t done much with it
That’s the one
That will let you create nodes that communicate with each other and share basic data with each other
Haha, yes, in this case you do
It’s plenty doable but it is one of the bigger mountains to climb from the bottom of
Oh okay well then yup you have plenty
I’m also self taught and have worked a lot with crypto, but I’ve had a lot longer to learn that. Learn the basics, find that medium tutorial on building a basic blockchain with python, you’ve got loads of time so just try to learn all the fundamentals while also trying to build something specific. Good luck!
vapid jay
damn you are in 7th grade and know a whole lot more than I do
I feel like I need to catch up
winter pumice
Self-taught programmers, how long did it take you to get an offer?
obsidian acorn
A month or so
I had many interviews, a lot of applications that went nowhere and a few offers
it would. @winter pumice
winter pumice
What stack did you learn first?
obsidian acorn
python
for analysis purposes, the django, then Flask, and other platforms
followed by java, js, node, scala
well, scala was after I started working
winter pumice
cool! did you start building apps first?
How did you get someone to respond to your resume/
obsidian acorn
created multiple apps, apis, and github projects.
And when application time came, I just apply to as many as I could, within the realm of my knowledge, and the gap that would be acceptable
winter pumice
did you create all of the apps over the month?
or was that from when you'd started applying to jobs?
obsidian acorn
oh, no, I started learning way before I started applying for job in the field
python was mostly a tool for me to make things easier, then, decided to to fully in the field.
a month was just for the applications, and interviews.
winter pumice
okay phew
obsidian acorn
I am not that smart
winter pumice
I was like "YOU LEARN SO FAST"
winter pumice
"I've read 3 books a day for 5 days straight"
winter pumice
I was speaking hypothetically, like a joke.
winter pumice
I read about one chapter a day. If I don't use any of what I've read about, its just wasted time.
The pattern I've gone with is to read a chapter a day and then work with what I'd just read.
main thicket
for reference, I am mostly self-taught (did intro course in uni) and a decently fast learner and I didnt feel comfortable enough for a job until about an year in
winter pumice
How frequently were you writing?
main thicket
cant really say, I study a variety of subjects in my free time while going through uni
hard to keep track of how much time i spent on either
winter pumice
gotcha. it does seem a little odd to ask you "how many hours (out to the second decimal) did you spend per week coding?"
vapid jay
So can you be self taught, then get scared you missed alot, then do like a college course, does that still count as self taught
obsidian acorn
lol, somewhat
dawn galleon
Roughly how many hours would you say it takes to be pretty much fluent in python
vernal lily
fluent?
5 years+
karmic bramble
"hours" probably won't measure it. And I personally don't think any answer can be given on that, because it greatly depends on your talent and invested time, as well as the quality of the sources you use and projects you do etc.
Also "fluent" is not defined at all.
dawn galleon
True- it wasn’t a great question
icy berry
10 000 hours is what it takes on average to become an expert in any given field. depending on what you mean by fluent, I think you mean that you no longer struggle with the syntax of python.
maybe 2 years I would say in such a manner (meaning 4000 hours)
vernal lily
10 000 hours is what it takes on average to become an expert in any given field.this isn't really true BTW
the guy who made it up said it was arbitrary
sudden lagoon
@inner wren_Experts how long did it take you to get good enough to earn any money with it?
vernal lily
bro you pinged a bot
sudden lagoon
I've been going through codecademy and it hasn't really been useful at all. I still have no idea how to apply these things in anything creative. It just feels like I memorised a bunch of useless shit I can't put into practice.
Would you guys say a goal oriented learning strategy would be better at becoming decent at python?
So like for example learning how to scrape info off a website or something like that
indigo sleet
The most effective method depends on the specific person
It can help to try a few different resources
!resources
inner wrenBOT
full field
@sudden lagoon you can try going through Zed Shaw's 'Learn Python the Hard Way'
much better than codecademy imo
indigo sleet
@full field Please do not recommend that resource
There are some extreme issues with it
If you scroll about halfway down
It's cool if it worked well for you, but for the majority of learners, it tends to do more harm than good
main thicket
@sudden lagoon Part of the problem is codecademy sucks and leaves you with no actual skills
full field
I mean you gotta take things with a grain of salt.
indigo sleet
A learning resource should be unbiased, useful and correct
LPTHW is none of these things
full field
his content might not be that great and his architecture isnt desirable, but i felt i learned more off of him than codecademy
indigo sleet
That may be the case, but I don't think replacing a bad resource with a slightly less bad resource is the way to go :P
Like I say, if it worked for you, great stuff
vernal lily
why is everyone so harsh on LPTHW LOL
indigo sleet
It causes a ton of problems for most people
@vernal lily I provided a link, please read the FAQ and the linked article on the sopython wiki
sudden lagoon
Here's the thing
vernal lily
ooh yeah i will read this https://sopython.com/wiki/LPTHW_Complaints
sudden lagoon
I'm really bad at learning from books.
indigo sleet
Have you tried Corey Schafer's stuff on YouTube?
sudden lagoon
I'm a visual learner so I learn best from videos and from figuring out problems myself.
@indigo sleet I just looked him up. Thanks
indigo sleet
Sounds like what you want then, yeah
Comes highly recommended from many community members here, and Corey himself sometimes hangs out here
sudden lagoon
I think codecademy is alright for learning the syntax
indigo sleet
It's kind of passable
but their free course only covers python 2
which is ideally not what you want to be learning
considering we're on.. Python 3.7.3
and Python 2 will be end-of-life this coming January
rare sand
codecademy is best enjoyed as a paid offering, yeah. but running through their python basic syntax thing is probably still good practice. it's not a big time investment and most of what it covers hasn't changed with py3.
and some respond very well to interactive learning.
full field
how do you like it
sudden lagoon
It's alright.
But like I said, I feel like I'm not actually learning anything I can actually creatively put into practice.
But I suppose that may be the case with anything you learn.
You just get to a point where you've developed so many new neural connections in your brain that you just kind of do without having to think too much about it.
I don't know. I just don't want it to end how it always does. I don't want to give up so I need to keep myself accountable.
I run a marketing agency and I'm also working on an internet security firm with a friend so my attention is always split but surely, even 2-3 hours a day can help me progress tremendously with the right approach.
Anyone here on EMACS or Spacemacs?
main thicket
spacemacs is pretty good
vernal lily
SpaceBLOAT
rare sand
foggy birch
whats a good way to get your name out there>
vivid dock
Put it out there yourself
Contribute to open source, mingle at tech meetups, phone people, social medias. Theres a lot of wayd
A guy recently got an interview at the firm i intern at cause he was checking out the HR guys linkedin profile. So je just called him (after looking at his profile to see he was a developer)
main thicket
Hackathons, code jams,Meetups (as in Meetup.com), public talks, open source. Look for slacks/discords of local Dev communities. Know people, be nice to them and they'll talk about you to others. Etc etc
frigid whale
Hey guys what do you think would be better to use.
Full Stack Python Developer or Full Stack Developer and Python Developer.
I'm building my cv and I don't know how to put my skills into a position.
I have done projects in web stacks (php, css, html, js) and also in backend (python mostly). Right now I have clients as a python developer but since I also manage servers (docker setups, script automation) I mostly fit into a full stack position.
Would love an opinion on this
main thicket
Just Full Stack Developer is fine
Shouldn't emphasise on a specific language unless the work is specifically on the language. It's not like you're unable to learn new languages
vapid jay
anyone ever felt bound to a job based on a bus factor i.e. if you left they wouldnt have enough manpower? i don't have any burning desire to leave my company any time in the immediate future, but i feel limited because i don't see any clear career growth in the position, coupled with that i feel it wouldn't give me any good connections if i left the company in the future and they ended up shortstaffed. part of that is at the fault of the business though I guess
main thicket
Then perhaps express a desire to leave with a long notice period because of a reason like 'i have different career goals' and then offer to help find a suitable replacement and train them as you leave?
vapid jay
good point
main thicket
Yay for team communication and not burning bridges
foggy birch
Apply for another ob while still working, and when you get hired put in your two weeks?
vapid jay
well anyway
foggy birch
laughing cause bad?
vapid jay
that's the opposite of what raggy just said
two weeks isn't long enough to replace and train
and would burn the bridge
foggy birch
ah potato potato
vapid jay
np though 😆
I wanna work somewhere soonish where I'm on a team of developers, right now there's only two developers on my team but we aren't a development team, and we don't exactly have a product schedule of any kind
but lots of freedom = plenty of time to experiment which is nice
main thicket
What's the rest of the team then?
vapid jay
one guy is manager-ish, should be but hasnt been officially promoted
so he spends most of time in meetings
other guy, hard to explain without telling you all the details of my job
but he doesn't do any development
mostly plans stuff, which takes a lot of time
main thicket
But also don't hang out your team to dry, do help them find a suitable replacement
Unless they're assholes in which case they deserve it
vapid jay
its a good company and has good benefits
it's just that the job i'm specifically doing isn't what i want to do long term which is probably the most important thing
well the benefits are pretty standard i guess since my CoL is too high to capitalize on the espp/401k
but we have a huge discount on stock
which is the biggest thing
not really
i havent seen the same plan in other companies
and i also havent seen the same growth in other companies as ours
main thicket
Baseline SWE is pretty average for similar careers (eg. Other engineers, some parts of healthcare). It's only if it's one of the massive companies or well funded companies inside a large hub that it's massively paid
vapid jay
healthcare isnt the biggest concern for me since i'm covered under my parents for another 2 years
but it helps i guess
since i double on dental and vision
yeah.. those are the two things we dont have
the stock purchase is pretty sweet but i can only contribute so much to it so i dont really benefit much
main thicket
WFH?
vapid jay
I worked from home last week and got so much done, but I was only able to because I had to get my car repaired that day
main thicket
Ah. Work from home yeah, but other engineers usually have similar flexibility as long as they get work done.
I guess healthcare stuff you have to be on time for so that's less flexible
vapid jay
yeah in my area there is a lot of that
telecommute every other friday or something
or once a week
my other issue is I spent my firs tyear out of college writing php, but then I got here and they don't use php so I've just been learning random stuff
but that kinda sets me back
i do have two years of professional experience now though
lol
well i dont even use php anymore
but now i just have an intro level of python/javascript and some other stuff lol
so ive been out of college for two years but dont feel like ive progressed two years worth
thats supposed to be python for me
ohh
are new companies still using java back ends?
i always figured that was just a bigcorp thing
with javascript its every 5 days
well python and javascript and php are all similar in that sense being interpreted
i do like c#
been about 5 years since i used it though lol
only thing i dont want to be doing is front end ux design
ah yeah
what stack do you use?
why's that
🤔
government?
np
yeah true..
if i want to learn java i dont have to learn how to make guis right lol
still the most popular by indexes
some of our teams use it
for different things
lol
main thicket
Tech stack is too confidential? 👀 What new fancy secret projects are you working on
vapid jay
so kotlin = jvm language
main thicket
Also yes
vapid jay
im just verifying thats what it is
ive only ever used the 3 i said
php python javascript
and some c# a long time ago
and whatever i did in school
main thicket
Meme JVM languages: Kotlin, Scala, Clojure, Groovy, and literally every language that isn't Java
vapid jay
yeah im gonna get started with java for a bit
since i'm learning flask a bit at work i guess i can leave that at work and focus on java at home
man id work anywhere that put me on a dev team
having to do non dev work is such a burden to my day
vapid jay
thats ok
slim island
"But if you want more selling power, Java is almost a lingua franca
Python is closing in on it I guess"
python overtook java a while ago
main thicket
Yeah I'm not sure I'd say Java is a lingua franca nowadays
slim island
java is definitely on the way out, but it will continue to exist for legacy projects just like cobol does
main thicket
It's not legacy yet but it's definitely not the same as it used to be
vernal lily
Kotlin is growing in market share for android apps very fast
Clojure isn't too big but there is a pretty vocal Clojure community here in england
as far as I can tell they use it for web back end
Scala gets used for stats
and Groovy is used for build tools like Maven
oooh it says Apache own Groovy
🤔
vast shoal
I don't think Java is on the way out. There is no obvious replacement for the niches where it's suitable.
It's more like it's being replaced in the niches where it wasn't that great to begin with.
main thicket
What niches is Java good for?
solemn valley
Development of legacy enterprise web backends
daring sundial
Also the legendary minecraft
icy berry
financial institutions uses Java
main thicket
Financial institutions use anything and everything. Minecraft is far from something Java is suited for.
I can't say much about web backends, have no experience to talk about that
vernal lily
the C++ version of minecraft ran better anyway LMAO
vast shoal
My employer builds financial infrastructure systems. The language as well as the library ecosystem is suitable for this.
vernal lily
but what is it about Java that makes it suitable for financial infrastructure frameworks?
vast shoal
The language itself is battle-proven, and the library ecosystem is virtually irreplacable.
In theory it could be replaced by another JVM language, but none has emerged as a clear victor.
vernal lily
I understand that the ecosystem is big yeah
Apparently Scala is doing well these days
vast shoal
My employer is exploring Kotlin as an alternative, but it's not obvious that Kotlin is going to be Java 2.0. It's got a lot of good points, but it's not mature.
At the same time, Java's new release cycle means it will address its major issues more quickly now, so it will probably gradually catch up in terms of modern language features.
vivid dock
Isnt there a web vm being developed so you can replace other jvms with javascript? 🤔
vivid dock
Eh forget it, i cant find w/e i read a few weeks back to back it up 
vernal lily
slim island
you can already run full fledged python + scipy + numpy in the browser
it's terrifying and glorious
main thicket
TL;DR: python through emscripten, C based extension modules through wasm, combined with mozilla's additions for JS interoperability and the iodide visualisation stack
icy elk
i thought wasm was like a new born baby
main thicket
not at all, wasm support has been enabled on all major browsers for a while
icy elk
is it cheating if I use pyodide for my everyday js then
vernal lily
there was Juypter already
icy elk
?
vernal lily
Jupyter notebooks
main thicket
Jupyter runs on a server
icy elk
They are different Apex
main thicket
Also #ot
potent solar
finding accredited online or short python courses is proving more difficult than i thought it'd be
slim island
@potent solar what is your reason for looking for one
potent solar
work stuff, will look good for a promotion. Needs to be accredited for payment and to look good to HR
I think i might be able to do with edX programs offered through universities?
indigo sleet
PCAP is pearsonvue, so it's as good as it gets IME
potent solar
I'm not seeing anything about accreditation on PCAP
indigo sleet
hmm, yeah
although that term is nebulous at best in my country
when something is accredited here, it just means it comes from a university
potent solar
yeah, it means that it's like certified from a regional accreditation agency here. which most universities/colleges are
potent solar
ok, looks like edX programs are accredited through their home university
indigo sleet
They do have some overlap
There's a lot of webapp work in Java
with that logic, there are no replacement languages
I'm pretty sure when people say things like this, they're just talking about popularity
Well, this is a careers channel
People often want to learn the most popular language because the implication is that there'll be more jobs
that isn't necessarily true, of course, but it kind of was with java
I actually have to disagree with that
At least in my part of the world, Java jobs have been disappearing at quite an amusing rate
vernal lily
Java got "commoditized"
indigo sleet
I have an Oracle java certification and not once has an employer mentioned it
I don't have a college degree
:P
I mean, maybe? I dunno
The weird thing was
I took that certification when there were java jobs literally everywhere
when I came out with my finished cert, most of them had disappeared
slim island
idk if i'm an outlier, but when i see certifications, i mentally deduct points
indigo sleet
and that part of the industry obviously never grew or anything since there are still basically no java jobs here
slim island
portfolio or side project >> any kind of certificate
indigo sleet
probably also worth noting that we don't have resumes here
I mean, I guess a small shop might have a bunch of people using 10 languages
You talk about resumes, so I'm assuming you're in the US
over here we use CVs, which is kind of the standard in europe
but being on an island, the job market is kind of different I think
I mean I'm not saying your experience isn't correct :P
I'm just kind of wondering why the market doesn't match
because a lot of standards and studies are from a US perspective
and are just sort of implied to also apply elsewhere
what we see here is more "X library developer"
django developer
otherwise I agree with you
was this really an argument :P
limber rampart
What I learn from this conversation is that resume and CV aren't synonymous 👀
indigo sleet
resume and CV are different, yeah
I think the CV is supposed to be a bit more personal
lemme check
limber rampart
From a quick google that seems to be right
Resume should be a demonstration of your competency for a certain position
indigo sleet
yeah, whereas a CV is 2+ pages covering your publications, awards, honors, etc
CVs are strictly chronological as well
and a traditional CV isn't adapted for each position - your cover letter does that
over here they tell you in school to include stuff like relevant interests, but nobody reads that
vernal lily
try and use a template
icy elk
i did
winter pumice
My resume looks like someone used a technical manual to write a ransom letter.
jagged heart
What level of skills do you need in order to land a Python internship? I assume you don't need to be a pro, but what kind of skills do they look for in someone?
solemn valley
Im not exactly sure but Id assume every company, org etc. has its own requirements?
jagged heart
As would I, I was just wondering what the average level of knowledge & education that they expect
potent solar
CVs are used a lot in academia. basically listing EVERYTHING in my experience. Most of the ones I've looked at have been like 5 or 6 pages long
grants, TAships, fellowships, publications, presentations, posters, group affiliations
vivid dock
Here i tend to see condensed cvs
Like 1 page if you dont actually have any experience and just contains education mostly
vast ridge
@jagged heart Central Europe, the expectation is 90% of the time "you can code".
Sometimes, you don't even have to send a CV.
vernal lily
how to prove we can code
vast ridge
@vernal lily Have public projects, give them links to them. Also, usually, part of the interview is a "coding" exam, where they'll give you some fairly simply thing to solve, like "write a function that calculates factorial", that will then be followed up by a discussion about your code, that discussion being highly dependent on the language you're applying for.
Also, doing the public coding puzzles where you can make an account, and your score and solutions are public can also be something you can show to your potential employer.
vast ridge
If you tell them to, they might.
Like, don't expect them to dig into what you did or didn't do. You have to present yourself, which means you have to bring all the stuff you did right under their noses in order for them to notice it.
vast ridge
Challenges where your solutions are public are your best bet.
I've been through two different programming jobs, one where they make their own hardware and software, and one where they make software for "the giants" (think automotive and banking). I've gone through four languages in those jobs (Python, js, Java, C++), some of which I liked more, some less. How long do you think is my resume?
vernal lily
how old are you really?
vast ridge
Truth is, I've been in the industry for four years already, and even now, I'm not out of high school yet.
vernal lily
you got programming job before finishing high school? 😮
vast ridge
Yep.
vernal lily
how does that work
aren't you in school during the day
vast ridge
Yes. And?
vernal lily
how do you go to work
vast ridge
Nothing is preventing me from coding when I'm not at school, or even while at school, for that matter.
And if I'm needed, I go after school usually.
vernal lily
oh is it like remote work
vast ridge
It's a company where they only care about work being done, not whether you're on site all the time or not.
vernal lily
Okay yeah I see
I used to do some web dev when I was in high school
local companies or clubs often wanted websites
was a good way to make a bit of money on the side 👍
vernal lily
this was before Python Flask even existed :P
everyone was using PHP 5
vast ridge
Yeah.
vernal lily
now PHP 5 is seen as really insecure
no Node.js either back then
web dev is a lot better these days
vernal lily
Same tbh
vast ridge
And that I wrote a website in PHP for myself before 2nd year of high school out of boredom
During that year, I'd use that website in our webdev classes as an excuse to play games of off steam.
uncut drum
I still have some of those terrible webs from 2006 hosted
still making about 600€ a month literally doing nothing but owning hosts and domains for people in my local area
fair sky
Hi
vast shoal
Hello
vapid jay
@vast ridge Finland is the same. Coding is 90% in programming jobs.
CV is more when it comes to more design and architecture oriented manager type jobs
vast ridge
Yeah, but like, it makes sense.
I mean, you literally learn outdated technologies, or nothing at school.
main thicket
School teaches you skills that are more intangible and more valuable than memorising a framework's API
Really shouldnt underestimate what school teaches you
vast ridge
@main thicket Yeah, well, honestly, school has taught me nothing about programming.
vast shoal
I think knowledge of specific technologies is kind of overrated in general.
main thicket
^^^^
vast ridge
That may be. But knowing a technology that's outdated and full of holes, like swiss cheese, doesn't do you any favours.
main thicket
it doesnt matter what language or technology or framework you know. that's useless fluff that changes. what doesnt change is your problem solving ability, your knowledge of deeper theory, your ability to reason with logic and think critically about your architecture and ways of doing things
vast shoal
It's easier to recruit asking for specific tech stacks, but given how often things become outdated, it's probably better to just assume that there will be some learning overhead when you hire a new developer. That overhead can be more or less depending on how experienced they are in general, though.
main thicket
ANYONE can learn a language or a framework. Not everyone can dedicate themselves to improving the way they think
vast ridge
True.
main thicket
That's why big companies dont hire for those things. When they interview let you use whatever language you want and feel comfortable with. It doesnt even have to compile
vast ridge
Yet at the same time, my entire class can't write code even if their life depended on it.
vast shoal
It's not just about knowing the syntax, APIs and basic concepts of a framework either, it's also about how you apply them.
main thicket
Just you need to be able to reason with a hard problem and how to get to its solution
And that's all they test for
vast shoal
@vast ridge That's probably not due to the fact that you haven't been exposed to enough buzzword tech.
I wouldn't go so far to say that it's ONLY about problem solving and that experience with technologies doesn't count, but there's higher level experience you can acquire that goes beyond specific libraries and frameworks.
Like, if you've worked with one reactive programming library, getting used to another is probably not going to be that big of a deal.
If you know Java, that's valuable applying for C# jobs, etc.
vast ridge
Like, I agree with the fact that knowing a programming language and a framework means nothing in the end. What I disagree with is teaching outdated stuff at schools at the time when it's already outdated.
vast shoal
Ideally, using modern stuff is preferrable, but if it isn't it's not the end of the world.
vast ridge
They still teach Flash at mine!
vast shoal
It's not a waste of time to learn procedural programming in C even if you will never use it in practice.
main thicket
They dont even teach stuff like Flash lol. Thats far from the kind of stuff we learn here
vast shoal
That can also be ok if the point is to teach you basic programming concepts.
main thicket
More theory stuff with whatever common language to facilitate it
vast shoal
Given that Flash is visual and it might be easier to grasp what the impact of the code you write is.
The basic programming concepts are transferrable to other contexts.
vast ridge
If it's about visualisation, maybe something like Processing would be better.
vast shoal
Probably, but that doesn't mean Flash is a waste of time.
vernal lily
Flash can't be used for web anymore though
vast shoal
@vernal lily The point I'm trying to make is that if what you are learning is basic programming, it doesn't matter what the medium is.
vernal lily
yeah that's a good point
vast shoal
You can learn about variables, data types and control structures in Pascal, or COBOL.
vernal lily
I don't agree with learning either of those in 2019
vast shoal
I'm not saying it's ideal, just that it's totally possible, and the knowledge you gain is completely transferrable to modern languages.
vast ridge
@vast shoal You know what was the answer my teacher gave me when I asked him why are we using Java to learn basic programming concepts?
vast shoal
Hit me with those truth bombs.
vernal lily
my viewpoint is:
"why learn on COBOL when you can learn on python"
vast ridge
"It's been taught here for over ten years."
vast shoal
@vernal lily Well, you can actually make a shitload of money supporting legacy COBOL systems.
vernal lily
yeah if you are already a senior COBOL dev
not if you are 18 and just learnt it as your first language lol
vast shoal
@vast ridge Which makes sense. Overhauling it would require a lot of work. And Java is by no means irrelevant in today's industry.
@vernal lily There's nothing magical about COBOL. If you make it your passion, you can probably get hired doing that. There's probably sufficient demand for it.
vast ridge
That's true, and my problem with that answer isn't that we're learning Java. It's that that's the only answer the teacher is capable of giving, besides "It's the only language I know."
vast shoal
Are you in high school or at uni?
vast ridge
It's high school, but what educational system are you comparing to?
vast shoal
@vernal lily Because COBOL is frustrating and boring.
vernal lily
Xd
vast shoal
And it's kind of a dead end career-wise.
rare sand
java is perhaps one of the most employable languages in the world still.
vast shoal
@vast ridge Well, high school doesn't usually have very developed programming education. I would be more concerned if your uni programming teacher only knew one language.
vernal lily
I keep reading articles saying Java is dying
then articles saying Java is the top language
rare sand
learning java is a smart career move, but might make you hate programming.
vast shoal
Not in my experience.
I've been a professional Java dev for 5 years, and I think it's fun.
main thicket
Java is far from dead but also I think new people are starting to not use it as much for new projects
rare sand
I only write java under duress.
vast shoal
Especially more recent versions of the language have a lot of modern language features, and the applications can be very interesting.
rare sand
but the java in our codebase is some of the most awful code I've ever seen
vast shoal
I think it gets too much undue flak.
Yeah, I think it has more to do with the employer if Java sucks or not.
vernal lily
I made an RPG (like DnD) tracker in Java with a GUI it was okay
rare sand
to be fair, most of our legacy python is hideous too
vernal lily
Java very verbose
vast shoal
It's kinda verbose, but it gets better in more recent versions.
Like, they introduced local variable type inference in Java 10.
main thicket
I've never been able to get myself to learn Java. It's just so... bulky?
main thicket
Java's modern features always arrive wayyy too late
vernal lily
C# is nice
vast shoal
So now they release a new version every 6 months, with whatever features are ready.
As opposed to waiting an unspecified time until everything is done.
Java 9 was the last version on the last cycle, and 12 was recently released.
So there's new stuff all the time now.
rare sand
I think both C++ and Java have this reputation of being bulky and unmanagable that's probably primarily driven by the fact that there's so much unspeakable legacy code out there in both languages.
if you started a brand new project today in either language, you could probably make use of the latest, modern features to write nice code.
vast shoal
Yeah, my employer is very up to speed both on technologies and coding standards.
main thicket
I never felt like C++ was bulky and unmanageable. Hard to approach because of the complexity of the language for sure
But not bulky
vast shoal
And our codebase is very neat.
main thicket
Not until you're too deep in anyway
vast shoal
C++ is bulkier than Java, I'd say.
main thicket
hey, C++ doesnt generally have factory factories
vast shoal
It pays off in terms of catching bugs earlier and having more control over performance.
Neither does Java, mostly.
There are some old APIs that were not so well-advised, but they are being phased out.
vernal lily
quick someone shill Rust
vast shoal
What remains mostly makes sense, I think.
solemn valley
@vernal lily the rust shill nr1 is already here but surprisingly speaking for c++ for once, I think the Microsoft part has changed him a lot...
vernal lily
a rust shill praising C++? 😮
main thicket
I've defended C++ before. I still think it's garbage but it's not garbage in every way possible
mind you, i've been writing a lot more C++ for a while now, it's the standard language in robotics
vernal lily
some people on discord love C and hate both rust and C++
main thicket
C lovers are weirdly inclined to their 5 decade old language
i can understand defending C++ and I can understand defending C to a very small extent
but acting like C is the be all end all is ridiculous
vernal lily
I think rust needs a killer GUI library
main thicket
GUI in Rust is real bad rn, if we get that, that will be a huge plus
but wait that's #ot
vernal lily
Rust is competing with C++ more than C
C is always going to be used for low level OS dev over Rust/C++
once it has good GUI tools yes
for now I prefer C++ for that
yeah Rust will be in a good place in 5 years
main thicket
Another convert. My work here is done
vapid jay
does anyone here work in the mobile space.. Im thinking of switching industries..
I'll be doing nlp like I do now, but more data analysis stuff related to iot.. would like to know what to expect
surreal kettle
Hii, i m new here and want to download python software, is any one help me
vapid jay
Is anyone aware of any post grad fellowship for international students from any institute or company, or a financial aid given to students who score good in a certain exam.
Pls tell if know anything about it.
thin fulcrum
Ah, the classic, C++ shilling. 
vapid jay
The classic double comma splice
rare sand
the classic offtopic in #career-advice.
vapid jay
Is there a site for freelancing in python ?
bitter patrol
freelancing sucks. rather have a full-time gig. sorry i don't have an answer for you kenshin
mellow agate
I don't think anyone was really asking if you'd freelance personally, and I'm unsure if it's really constructive in this context. Everyone has their own preferences and circumstances in life, and replying with such an unnecessary and uninvited negative statement on the subject seems to invite people to see your statement as equal parts ignorant and condescending, even if it's not the intention. People should be kind, encouraging and understanding to each other, as you never know if they're going through a hard time and this may be the time they're trying to reach out to pick themselves up and get back into the game slowly, which freelancing could suit quite well for. So I hope you can reflect a little in future before hitting that send button.
vapid jay
I've been listening to quite a bit of John Sonmez over the past few weeks, and he talks about moving to consulting after being a freelancer for some period of time. My question is- what would you specifically consult on, with software development? He did say its higher level strategic stuff that could save the companies some six figure amount and speed up dev time by months; would this be playing the role as a software architect, managerial matters with coordinating many people together on a project, or both? Thanks.
karmic spear
most of the times consultant is just a more fancy name of freelancer. But anyways there are cases when company needs a highly qualified worker for a short term, in this case for company it does not make any sense to open a position, so they would hire someone for a short term. That could be whatever, I guy who knows say cloudplatform to which they want to move, but before the move they need to understand an afford, so they would hire such a person.
same with any new technology, like AI or whatever if they want to build a proof of concept but there is noone in the company who can do it, they would go for a consultancy. There are lots of cases when company would need a short term consultant.
vapid jay
Thanks for explaining. I presume that really just comes down to having your thumb on the pulse of what libraries/technologies are in-demand commercially at that time, and being a leader/authority in that field?
karmic spear
well, not really leader or authority you just need to have skills and start building your authority, but you definitely don't have to be a leader, plus you can work for a consultancy agency instead of being on your own.
potent solar
turns out work will approve udemy courses
potent solar
yeppp
hazy kindle
I'm a Data Intelligence Engineer for Dell EMC and I'm only 20
Guess slacking off in highschool to code Python paid off
upper fjord
How much coding have u done(years) and how good would u consider urself to be in relations to the job?
sand frost
if you could choose, would you rather work at murrica or somewhere in yurop (or anywhere else) as a software dev, taking wage, healthcare, community, your hobbies etc. into consideration
vernal lily
healthcareEurope
sand frost
heard some of the states arent so bad in murrica either
vernal lily
no US state has free healthcare
sand frost
yeah, dropping say 60$ a month for insurance wouldnt really make a difference if you earn 5k$ a month for example.
let me ask again; keeping quality of life and net $ you get at the and of the month (after rent utilities food etc. all that jazz) where would you rather live at as a software dev.
vernal lily
US health insurance doesn't cover everything
people often have to pay out of pocket even with health insurance
hazy kindle
I've been programing python for about 6 years
main thicket
@gloomy lagoon on the other hand, Canada has all the same cutting AI stuff and is closer to Europe in ways
fluid thicket
This is very interesting, he talks about age cap in programming and age discrimination in big software companies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIuK4zbn6Pg
chrome pond
chrome pond
Not with that attitude
vapid jay
whats the best way to keep myself available for recruiters to contact me but also not notify my company that doing that? i'm not looking for a job, but i don't want to miss potential opportunities if they come up
obsidian acorn
Update your profile on LinkedIn, many recruiters require from those profile
vapid jay
Bruh
I'm 14
And got grips with python
Is that good
Also I heard that being a software developer is the worst thing ever right now
vernal lily
Also I heard that being a software developer is the worst thing ever right now where did you hear that? @vapid jay
LOL in my country CRUD web app devs are very well paid
ah in 15 years yeah
that's different
Node.JS and React+Angular are currently so hyped
hmm react/angular are pretty tough to learn
I actually think basic data analytics is easier
meta frameworks to write more generic front end code from a GUIthis is describing Adobe Dreamweaver though
we had this already
can we move to offtopic channel
okay night 😃
signal flame
Hi all, I'm working on a skills assessment for a job app and I'm wondering if someone might be interested in reviewing it for me? It's not super complicated, but I want to make sure I don't do amything obviously silly
vapid jay
I have a question does Hadoop put people out of job? If yes then which coders are not required if Hadoop is installed in a system?
main thicket
very very few companies are in the position to be using hadoop and mapreduce
most companies using them at this point shouldnt be using them
vapid jay
Loads of people have said
And articles
So I think I worded it wrong, I meant its not worth it and its highly commoditized so you are better off being a doctor
(Atleast in the UK)
There are just too many people who know how to code which means that anything you can do, they can do
It's a saturated area to get jobs
That's what I've heard
main thicket
UK people get shafted in general
hecc even UK doctors get shafted
there are definitely not too many people that know how to code
get into a BigN in a place that has a bit less CoL than seattle/valley and you can be pretty well off in the US
especially considered to doctors who have to have 8 years of schooling (lots of debt in the US)
but yes, Software is way less better off outside the US
big N in UK still pays alright but nowhere near US
vapid jay
What do you mean N?
main thicket
big N is a general name for the large tech companies (Google, M$, FB, etc)
vapid jay
Ah, OK
Also, say you just graduated and blessed are looking for a job, over the years, doctors get paid more than software engineer depending on their branch
For example, an experienced cardiologist would get a 6 digit salary while an experienced software engineer wouldn't
If I'm wrong, please correct me
brazen bone
If you're good and you have the years of experience that an "experienced cardiologist" has, then it's not impossible to break 3 figures. But yeah, it's much harder to do
main thicket
On the other hand, software engineers often make their own startups and end up earning beyond what is considered "sofware engineering money"
How many of the world's billionaires are doctors?
They're very different careers with different general paths and you cant really compare them like that. There's a lot fewer doctors and they're generally somewhat filtered from the bell curve early
sharp yew
yea but how many startups are actually successfull
you might have a higher chance to be a billionare but your more likely to make less than a doctor
assuming its all up to chance of course.
vapid jay
You can't expect everyone to start up a business and expect them to become Bill Gates or their business to become as successful as Microsoft
It's too saturated
And it's hard starting a business because you have to think of PED too
Also, you can't scale up instantly to become a multi-million dollar company
So it probably is beneficial to become a doctor rather than a software engineer
icy elk
Even the smallest software company makes 6 digit figures
You don't have to make millions to pass what doctors earn
Granted that doctor's base salary is higher, they have to go through certain education and have too many responsibilities
While a software engineer can just start at a small company with little to no education(Even big companies except people with no degree) they also can fuck up daily
What is a small mistake for a doctor? Wrote the wrong prescription? Patient was allergic? Now the patient is dead? boom now it is a huge mistake
What is a small mistake for a SE? Your code has a bug? Didn't compile or throw runtime error? Patch it.
vapid jay
That's the point you specialise and study more in uni so that doesn't happen
Sitting in front of a computer until you retire could get a little boring
icy elk
Yeah I need the adrenaline of almost killing a bunch of people to live on my life without getting bored
"Hun, today was so fun, almost killed a car crash victim, can you imagine how boring my life would be if I was a software engineer?"
Some guy gets bored writes discord, earns money
some guy want his gf to send him nudes, writes snapchat, earns money
Some guy wants a new programming language, writes it, random companies pay him to keep going
icy elk
Pretty sure if they make mistakes that's what happens
vapid jay
Yes but with such a high skills, your not going to make such stupid mistakes
By giving them medicine that they are allergic too
icy elk
According to your definitions of these
All doctors have high skills because they study for a long time
vapid jay
Bare in mind your arguing with a 14 year old
icy elk
But I can give you about 193483294239743231 links where it says doctor mistake killed human
I don't know how that changes anything at all
vapid jay
If you think it doesn't that is kind of crazy
icy elk
OK
vapid jay
You have to study 4 years t get an undergraduate degree, get some work experience and only then can you be a doctor
vapid jay
I'm not criticizing anyone who is a software engineer, In the future it's not worth it for youth who are getting jobs
icy elk
SE is not worth it in the future?
icy elk
You are wrong
vapid jay
And the correct answer is?
icy elk
Software world evolves incredibly fast and the fact that there are new technologies on literally every field makes new job opportunities
You have 1 doctor
and 1 patient
Doctor takes care of the patient, no more doctor needed
You have 1 application 1 software engineer
1 more software engineer and the application gets updates twice as fast and has less bugs now
You can keep throwing software engineers to anything
and the end product will be better and better
vapid jay
I think you get a lot more people than one person who asks for treatment from a doctor
icy elk
That's even worse
vapid jay
How come?
icy elk
Let's say that 1 doctor can take care of 10 patients
100 patients and you have 10 doctors
11 is not needed
Now you have 100 people who use technology
1 guy writes skype
the other discord
the other whatsapp
game1
vapid jay
The world in in need of doctors
vapid jay
There are so many sections in being a doctor
icy elk
Soo 100 people actually requires a lot more SE than 10 people
vapid jay
Bruh
icy elk
Dude
vapid jay
I worded that wrong, I meant there are different places you could build you profession
main thicket
Guys, it's not a dick measuring contest between doctors and software engineers. This is getting a bit offtopic now
vapid jay
I agree
icy elk
You are a cardiologist, you use 5-10 different software that software engineers write
icy elk
I'm not dick-measuring, I'm trying to disprove that "software engineer is not a future job"
It's getting a bit toxic too, and I have to revise :upside_down: lol
literally everything is "toxic" these days apparently
indigo sleet
Software engineering continues to be a growing field, although there are many other related fields one could get into where programming experience is still useful
The current trend of lower skilled jobs being automated away means that higher skilled jobs are being created
(which is why "robots are taking our jobs" is largely bullshit)
As an example of another field, you could look at the area of devops, which is seeing massive growth
Devops is one of my favourite things tbh
vernal lily
yeah aerospace lmao
vapid jay
Physics
Over anything
Aerospace engineer > every other job
Jk
But it's really cool
Hmm I am interested in it also, but I liked writing a program, but idk how to do it😅
You can fix Boeing's software 🤣
@vapid jaylmao my bro is a aerospace engineer, he is in nasa Imao.
@vapid jaylol
Cool!
I'm guessing you don't have to actually fly
So you won't die
And working for Nasa is a really cool ob
Ngl
I want to create my own things.....he told me that you need to have some learning of programming language.
To Join NASA.
Well that's even better
Since you like programming and you want to be an aerospace engineer
Yes. It is mandatory.
Aerospace is very cool
@vapid jayYep....it will be fun in programming rockets and all things imao.
Yep
GO
It is go
Idk what will happen man, it depends on future.
Go is a programming language made my Google
Dude
Yep.
Do the thing that will bring you happiness (unless your philosophy is different)
Working at Nasa is a highly respectable job
Yes
I need to pass through ISRO First. @vapid jay
I can't jump directly to nasa.
Eh
Both are good
Nasa has a better name tho
Yes but ISRO has better scientists than NASA. @vapid jay
vapid jay
Yaaa @vernal lily
Everything from India has a bad name
It's so sad
ISRO is underrated
Media don't care about what they do
Everything is Nasa
Dude corruption is eating india, if the corruption is finished, the India is a better country then. @vapid jay
It's not corruption
It's the faulty leaders
Yes, indirectly corruption.
India is having another election soon
Hopefully they get Modi again
He did a great job
Others messed stuff up
Yep.
They entice people with money like you said meaning corruption
Idk
They are just a piece of shit. @vapid jay
I would love to learn python from anyone, can anyone teach me some basics and programming lang?
I would, but like my name says I have exams
main thicket
This is offtopic
vapid jay
Is anyone of you from India
weary gazelle
might be better to just ask your actual question
vapid jay
@vapid jayyes I am.
Then only you can understand @vapid jay
Yes I know man, @vapid jay but in there way of seeing, they are also right.
I in a bit of situation here,
Should I apply for jobs before I graduate or should I wait till I finish my last paper and start applying online. I am under pressure to land a job immediately in data science?
This might sound stupid question but am confused...
@weary gazelle @vapid jay
@vapid jaydnt ask from me dude. I am still in standard 12. I will be doing IIT after that.
In aerospace engineering.
Sure good luck, am asking in general
real python
Yes you should apply for jobs before you graduate
still lion
Hey everyone, i just had a quick question (if you dont mind pming me so we can continue the conversation it would be greatly appreciated). I was wondering if anyone here used to live in a country and moved to the states and what that process was like. I just had some questions and wanted to ask someone who (preferably) has been through it.
vapid jay
this seems careerish enough
how can I get involved more?
like where can I find the right communities?
where can I go to look for the right people to surround me with?
main thicket
@vapid jay meetup.com for locally organised meetups, university clubs and societies (which are often open to non uni members), eventbrite or facebook for other events (try to find a registry of hackathons nearby). members of university clubs/societies would also likely know of related events
also look for locally run chapters of common events like Random Hacks of Kindness
vapid jay
@still lion try googling masters in us , there are many answers on Quora
@real python. Thankyou for responding, but if I do get the job I can't work before I graduate. Is it okay if tell them this. Or would they reject me
viscid vapor
Any quick tips for writing a resume for a tech-related job?
I live in a a town where most local tech companies are actually pretty small, although they vary from IT work to website design.
I can also post what I currently have written up if you are curious, but I'm moreso interested in what details a recruiter may be expecting on a resume that may not be found in other industries (so far it's just a standard resume format with my programming skills inserted into it).
vapid jay
lets see what you got
what I know from larger companies is, they fill their job requirement description with a bunch of keywords, but are only on the look out for a few specific skills (they won't tell you that and which) .. for smaller companies they look for involvements in projects similar to what the job role entails
viscid vapor
There
(also I'm aware that the formatting is quite plain)
I've never made a resume for something that wasn't either service or retail, both at entry level
Definitely good feedback!
The regex was under hobbies anyways, so that's gone lol
vapid jay
ahh crap.. I probably shouldn't have opened that link
please don't disclose who I am to anyone..
here.. page 6
should give you a rough idea\
and you can look on linkedin for people in similar roles to the one you're applying, that should give you an idea of what to highlight
viscid vapor
Sure, thanks guys!
viscid vapor
well, I get a little excited when I have to write a regex
vapid jay
the companies really care only about stuff relevant to the job
that is the stuff you should have in your resume
velvet kite
unless other formats are required, I recommend pdf resumes
indigo sleet
PDF is always the best format unless they ask you for another, because it looks the same regardless of machine setup
The same is not true of stuff like word documents
viscid vapor
Oh yeah, definitely using pdf, the standard was already beat into me with college.
uncut nexus
i want to ask something
vernal lily
okay
uncut nexus
my school just ended and i will soon be of to college
but here in India they don't teach a lot other than the syllabus
so what are the extra things that i should do while I'm in college
that will help me in getting a job
and i do not want to do office job
i want to do work from home
vast shoal
It's hard to answer that question. We don't know what's in your college syllabus.
upper fjord
What are u going to study and what do you want to work with more specifically?
uncut nexus
Bachelor of technology in computer science
vast shoal
But, general things you can do to get extra credibility is work on your own side projects, put them up on sites like Github, contribute to open source projects, get involved in local developer communities, do part-time freelance work, etc.
Participate in hackathons
uncut nexus
i still do not have a clear picture of " what do you want to work with more specifically"
i do Participate in hackathons
but there are not a lot of happening here in india
upper fjord
Well if u want to work from home I highly suggest u go on the track @vast shoal suggested. Because then u can start to freelance
uncut nexus
will having a blog help ??
vast shoal
It can
If you post valuable and informative articles, it can reflect positively on you
I wouldn't rely on it exclusively, but it probably doesn't hurt.
uncut nexus
i actualy have one
vapid jay
link?
uncut nexus
to blog ?
potent solar
@viscid vapor I'd also not put references down on your resume. Usually they'll ask once they want them or have a spot on the application for them
I'd also be down to DM about resume stuff. i'm currently helping with the hiring process at my job, so i have experience on both ends
viscid vapor
I'll ask for input once I remake my resume
balmy mural
I'm currently doing my degree in computer science, majoring in mathmatical statistics. I'm looking to go into data science or possibly a different mathmatical direction once I'm finished. Our current curriculum in computer science(first year) is very basic and generalized. I'd like to expand on my own, anyone have tips on what I should specifically be looking at and focussing on?
main thicket
@balmy mural what kind of stuff do you want to expand on?
balmy mural
I honestly have no idea what to even look at atm. Like I said our curriculum at uni is very basic(we just did jagged arrays a week ago and it's already almost the half year mark)
Things that would relate to data science or just that's good to know and expand on regardless of the direction someone plans on going
hazy kindle
I am mostly self taught
I am currently an intern at Dell EMC in the process of getting hired
And I dropped out of college
Because of how basic the courses were
main thicket
@balmy mural How's the maths education?
balmy mural
Currently busy with second year calculus
Finished first year calc and linear algebra
main thicket
What's in second year calculus?
balmy mural
So I have a solid background
Eh, actually, busy with linear algebra this semester, starting the calc next semester, so I'm not 100% sure yet
hazy kindle
From my experience in the data science environment the major needs are SQL and automation
At least where I work
And also learn how to template an Excel document
balmy mural
For calc what we did last year was mostly integration, I think the last thing we did was infinite sequences
main thicket
I'd recommend studying as much maths as possible. Calculus for breakfast, probability theory for lunch, linear algebra for dinner. Maths is a Swiss army knife. Apart from that, learning python's numerical code environment (the scipy suite; scipy, numpy, matplotlib, pandas, sympy). On top of that some knowledge of SQL helps though that's a low priority. Being familiar with Linux and it's command line helps tons when you start having to deal with Linux only software or servers to train or run model.
hazy kindle
I use airflow at work to schedule ETL jobs and I have to know Linux for that
balmy mural
currently doing probability theory and linear algebra anyways as uni courses, continuing with calc next semester. So on the computer science side I'll start with scipy, numpy, matplotlib, pandas, sympy then
thanks
hazy kindle
pandas is what I find the most useful for me
Since I'm pulling data from a database
And then doing analytics on it
It usually isn't
Unless you already have a job opportunity.
And even then
Yeah I'm a special case
Don't follow my example
balmy mural
Yea, getting a job where I live without a degree would be nrealy impossible unles you have the perfect connections
hazy kindle
Which I did thankfully
I'm actually doing weekly Python trainings at work
I am teaching my colleagues
is only 20
hazy kindle
Thing is I work for a large company where there hopefully will be room for improvement
@gloomy lagoon I work at Dell EMC
Thing is if I move out no one knows how to maintain what I stood up
Thing is on the SQL side of things I don't have as much knowledge
Also work offers online learning courses for free so
Also summer hours are nice
vestal zodiac
@vapid jay what careers are you looking for though?
vapid jay
Not sure @vestal zodiac probably anything expect web developer
zealous harbor
Hi fellow nerds
Is there folks here who have switched from software development to offensive cyber-security?
if so, what are the top 3 reality vs expectations you faced at the early stage?
red spindle
@hazy kindle good time to learn how to document :D
vivid dock
@hazy kindle habe you worked with webdev before?
I thought of myself as a backend guy before, thinking i would never enjoy front end / webdev.. Seems i was wrong after working with it for the last 6 months
Its not so bad
narrow lake
the good thing about JavaScript is the fact that you can use it for more than just frontend
vivid dock
I like to keep it frontend, but was actually a bit fun to tackle the beast
vapid jay
Javascript is not the problem with FE but CSS rofl
@hazy kindle Not having a degree is a huge block for promotion
twin oracle
hello fellow programmers, my questions is should i go for certificates or the degree?
icy elk
I'd go for portfolio
twin oracle
like IT Technician (Tehničar za računalstvo in my language probs wrong translation :P)
vapid jay
If I wanted to do a project specifically to add diversity to my github (right now it's all task automation) would something like chess be a good idea?
vapid jay
I was thinking terminal chess with no AI for starters
vapid jay
Ok neat
I'll do this in as many installations as I feel like, but barebones seems like a decent starting point
main thicket
agreed, the AI and algorithms is what you should be flexing
we already know you can use APIs and do normal software stuff if you can do automation
would be nice to see you can think hard
signal rock
hey guys, I need some advice from you all. I hope this is right thread for that.
So I am from India and last year I completed my study. In the final semester project I worked on Python and got my first job. After a year, due to some reason I had to change my job and this new job is all about Analytics. So most of the time I am working with Pandas and Jupyter. Now I am newbee for Analytics amd sometimes when I am stuck I think about switching back to Python and web development. I like analytics and I am learning it as well but still not sure about it.
what is the right thing to do here? some of you might have faced the same situation i guess. thank you :)
vapid jay
if you don't have the background for analytics, and want to stay in the field.. study it.. If you enjoyed doing something and want to get back to it, do it.. like the person above me said, it's about what you'll like doing and see a future for yourself for the long run
vast shoal
There's probably going to be plenty of career opportunities in both fields, so it's more or less up to you what you prefer doing.
mellow agate
@robust finch the page you've linked to does not appear to be for a scholarship
As it appears you're offline, I'm going to remove the link for now as it's appearing to be advertising until something specific to a scholarship is shown in relation to it.
robust finch
@mellow agate guess I posted the wrong page I’ll find it later on about to walk to class
dry sapphire
does anyone know what kind of compensation I could expect for contract-based educational content development (like short text guides of about 1000 words)?
onyx geode
has anyone here competed in a kaggle competition ?
is the process like bidding
just like freelancer or elancer?
vapid jay
What do I gotta study to get into data science ?
main thicket
Lots of maths and statistics
vernal lily
software developer needs little to no maths
main thicket
^
vernal lily
its 2019 so its probably a webapp
what you are using is React, Redux, CSS Grid, JSX
vapid jay
What do software developers do and what should I start focusing on learning
vernal lily
no maths there
vapid jay
Isn’t react JavaScript
vernal lily
yes React is a Javascript framework
vapid jay
So u can’t be software developer with just python
vernal lily
python is rarely used to make standalone software
vapid jay
What careers are good for just using python
main thicket
You can definitely write only python
vernal lily
back end web dev, machine learning, data science
are good for python
vapid jay
Data science sounds scary cause lots of math you said
vernal lily
take a look at Flask http://flask.pocoo.org/
its a popular python back end web framework
vapid jay
@vernal lily is that consider web developer
vernal lily
yeah
but be aware that there are two types of web development
back end (like Flask), which runs on a web server
and front end (like React), which runs in the user's browser
you can be a back end web dev, front end, or both (which is known as full-stack)
vapid jay
Ye ik that
Much
But say I wanna do python software developer what should I focus on learning
vernal lily
as I said, python is rarely used to make standalone software
if you did want to do it, Qt for python (pyside 2) is worth looking at
vapid jay
But rust shill said you can
vernal lily
ask him
vapid jay
@main thicket
main thicket
It doesn't have to be standalone, as long as you don't have to use other languages you're fine, right? there's plenty of opportunity for using only python in backend, automation, data science, scientific computing, scripting in other domains (blender, Maya, etc)
rigid kindle
hi i joined about a few days ago but i would like some feedback/advice!
currently i work full time and i'm interested in data science/analysis. i'm taking a ibm data science course on coursera, studying python and sql, mainly on sololearn as well.
i want to make this a future job, so should i start looking into getting a degree if its very necessary or just make a good portfolio of projects?
what projects do i even do? :^/
but yeah, any encouragement and advice would be awesome!
compact mist
@rigid kindle You can do either degree or a good portfolio of projects. If not a degree, you should also network as much as possible to get some references for a DS position.
Projects i would think of is taking large real life data sets and do something with that, then making a presentation of some sort. Qauntum Trading, machine learning is also a good option for projects
rigid kindle
@compact mist thanks for responding! that was very helpful and gives me a better eye view. 😄
oh wow, good to know. that is more related to the r language?
compact mist
I agree, the goal is to get the portfolio of projects and probably something to talk about! Whats going to get you past the tech interviews is the Data structure and Algorithm practice (i think for a data science role)
Ya I see the degrees as a benchmark of hardwork and proved that you've understand all the CS stuff. If youre going self-taught, make those projects, get references, and kill the interview by practicing.
rigid kindle
hmm i will def study harder and eventually try some projects. hopefully get into analyzing more first i guess, i like that a bit more
main thicket
But also for ML, ML is very academic and mathematical as a field and the skills you develop in a degree directly correlate with ML skills.
So extra important there
I have very little faith in the maths ability of most self taught people. It's just hard to teach yourself maths.
rigid kindle
ah yes i do recall ml having lots of math
main thicket
Hecc, I have little faith in the mathematical ability of CS majors except those from really top unis
It's less elitism, more "the people that go to top unis care more about maths and pure CS" and I've 100% noticed a difference in quality of maths education there
rigid kindle
eventually i do want to take classes for this, i just got interested about a month ago so i'm kinda not sure what i'm doin
and i've heard/seen stories of people getting in those roles just knowing the basics, python, and learning other coding languages on the job/at home so i wanted to give it a shot 🤔
main thicket
I've noticed loads of difference. Not in software engineering, just in maths ability
Software is more of a craft
Disagreed, 100%. There is a massive difference in maths education between universities. Maths is a hard to teach subject and superiority in mathematical maturity isn't just about what content you've covered but the way you've been taught things and the concepts that were introduced. Some universities teach you to memorise Gaussian elimination and a couple other linear algebra tricks and that's all your linalg background. Some others go in depth on abstract vector spaces, inner products, diagonalization, gram schmidt process, and so on. There's a massive difference between linear algebra plug and chug education and geometrically inspired concept heavy linear algebra education
Same thing carries over to other subjects also
Plug and chug maths education is common in many places, with concepts stopping at "just enough concepts to repeat procedure learnt in other subjects"
It's not though, I've gone through resources from a variety of different universities, most in top 100, even spread across multiple countries. The quality of maths education can be staggeringly different. It doesn't end up mattering for top performers who learn tons in their free time anyway, but for the average student not dedicated to self teaching maths, it absolutely has an effect
onyx geode
how many of you have experience with kaggle ?
I'm thinking of making a few submissions and then trying my hand on a project given in the competition
any suggestion you want to give me?
thanks in advance!!
vapid jay
yeah.. keep at it.. try the different approaches, see what other people have done.. and focus on evolving
your approach
vapid jay
@gloomy lagoon Things would be different if school was about actual good quality and developable code instead of get shit done and pass.
uncut nexus
@vapid jay that's utopia
vapid jay
no it isn't
uncut nexus
why not ?
vapid jay
because it is teachable skill and in demand
schools compete with each other
so they will eventually have a reason to teach it properly
especially when private companies want to invest in cheaper / better programmers
uncut nexus
that would be perfect right ??
vapid jay
no because it will reduce my salary
I don't know about other countries but in Sweden and Finland we have universities for just practical implementation of previous research and not creating new one
Their purpose is kind of fill that gap between actually working and academic mambojambo but not all of them are doing a good job at it
uncut nexus
ok