career-advice

[short jacinth]

since I'm the one who came up with the stuff, I can just release another version

I haven't really ever published anything of my personal stuff but I'll start, someday 😄

I come from a generation where step one of learning how to code wasn't "make a github account"

[zealous siren]

Now its make a discord bot

[short jacinth]

lol yeah. On with the security holes!

[little sinew]

and the bot token is on github

[vapid jay]

just to weigh in on GDPR... Brexit changes nothing. GDPR is adopted into UK Law, when brexit happens, it'll still be there. Besides, GDPR states if you are holding PII of EU Citizens, you MUST follow GDPR Rules.

[mint owl]

Anyone who wants to do any kind of trade with Europe will have to follow it

So yeah, Brexit doesn't change that

[vapid jay]

yup.

[indigo sleet]

Kind of an off-topic discussion for #career-advice

[frank abyss]

This is some of the most ridiculous shit I've ever heard.

[fluid matrix]

do we have Sr Dev or CTO here? I need some advice about the industry

[indigo sleet]

Best to just ask the question

[fluid matrix]

how do you deal with developers who can get the job done but are bad at taking a test?

[indigo sleet]

How do you get them through the interview process? That's tricky

A lot of companies do detailed portfolio examination

I don't think the industry has a good answer to your question though

[fluid matrix]

I've heard that it's actually a known phenomenon called Test Anxiety

[indigo sleet]

I do think unrealistic tests are a problem

[fluid matrix]

yeah that as well, is a problem

[hollow mantle]

I feel the best way would to give them small project and a few days to do it

[indigo sleet]

That's what they did with lemon, I think he had to write a URL shortener

That's a good test

Not "Write bubblesort in 30 mins while I look over your shoulder"

[fluid matrix]

yeah, I think that's right

[rare sand]

I had to do both.

and the one during the interview with the lead dev looking over my shoulder was nightmare mode

had to write a stupid simple piece of code with the lead dev AND the CTO watching me, on a mac with japanese set as the system language

I mean.. that's just evil.

[indigo sleet]

Why Japanese

[fluid matrix]

damn

[rare sand]

because that's just what the lead dev used as his system language

[indigo sleet]

Huh, okay

[rare sand]

he's a fluent speaker who spends a month in japan every year

[indigo sleet]

I imagine they'd have had an English or Norwegian machine in the building though

[rare sand]

but so every time I nervously hit a button that I didn't intend to hit, he basically had to come help me find the code editor again :D

it was a total disaster and I wrote a terrible piece of code

[indigo sleet]

Haha

[rare sand]

but I nailed the home assignment

[indigo sleet]

Yeah, doesn't sound fun

[rare sand]

so I still got the job

[fluid matrix]

the thing is, sometimes maybe they are trying just to see how you handle stress?

[oblique obsidian]

@hollow mantle I've read blogs complaining about why taking a few days to do a small project isn't great.

In a if I'm not getting paid to do a day or two of work, that's a day or two I could spend getting paid/looking for work elsewhere sort of way

[rare sand]

if they're trying to see how you handle stress, it might be a shit environment to work in, though. the perfect job is not one that requires programmers to constantly handle stress.

that's what management is for.

[oblique obsidian]

I'm fine with it, I'd do an at home project based test easily, for fun even. But I'm also aware that I've got savings and such to float myself.

11/10 agreed, I'm in a spot now where management is excellent at protecting their team, at least the one I'm on and it has been great

[indigo sleet]

A lot of companies do prioritise anxiety-driven-development it seems

[rare sand]

haha

[indigo sleet]

Hard to know from the interview unfortunately

[rare sand]

anxiety driven development

yeah especially gamedev seems to do this

insane sprints

[indigo sleet]

Also known as agile

Yup

[rare sand]

most of my gamedev friends just completely retire from normal life during sprints. they just work 17 hour days

I would never do that

[indigo sleet]

Did you read that reddit post yesterday?

[rare sand]

I'd rather be tech support

[indigo sleet]

https://www.reddit.com/r/valve/comments/8zmp07/former_valve_employee_tweets_his_experience_at/ this one

[rare sand]

thankfully I have a pretty couchy dev job in that regard.

[indigo sleet]

Someone transcribed all the tweets to a thread

[oblique obsidian]

I work pretty much as a software developer on an admin team at a big enough company that there are also dedicated software teams. And every single admin has had massive issues with stress at previous jobs.

Literally if games companies could chill on the over promising and ramp up production early instead of waiting until all their time is gone

[rare sand]

maybe, but I think a lot of them are under intense do or die pressure from their publishers

[indigo sleet]

Yeah that's often the case

[rare sand]

unrealistic expectations has become the norm

and if you can't deliver that barbie horse adventures 6 or whatever it is you're making in half the time it takes to actually make it, someone else will.

[indigo sleet]

Also a lot of companies won't make time for maintainance to be done

Code restructuring and bugfixing, cleaning up

If the customer doesn't complain, hey, it's a feature now

[oblique obsidian]

True

I think that technical debt in terms of never refactoring is endemic in the gamedev industry

I saw an article in the past few weeks about how Blizzard somehow tampered with some unrelated code and messed up the leveling system so it's taking 15% longer than it used to or something. And they've no idea why...

[tardy ivy]

@oblique obsidian hi there

[candid vortex]

@oblique obsidian it's not a bug it's a 'gameplay rebalancer'

[sand knot]

which is really sad because i see video games as half art and half game, and if you pressure an artist youre going to get shit art

[drowsy vale]

what kind of job a person get who only know one language

[fluid kindle]

@drowsy vale you could always do freelance work in technologies in that language?

[drowsy vale]

like how does that work

[fluid kindle]

Well the idea would be that you'd either meet people who needed software tools made in your community and work out deals in person, or you could take an online approach and create an account on something line freelancer

like*

[hollow mantle]

UpWork.com and Freelancer.com are good places to start, but try to build a client base so you don't have to rely on a 3rd party

[indigo sleet]

You should prefer not doing that online if possible

[drowsy vale]

does anyone here do work related to hacking ? or can do?

[hollow mantle]

I don't with Cyber Security if that's what you mean. Hacking is pretty general, it's just using something for a task that it wasn't intended for.

[drowsy vale]

so did you learn hacking on the way of learing programming or did you learn it seprately

[young harbor]

How hard is it to get machine learning work and how 'Good' do I have to be?

[hollow wasp]

Language is needed for that question I think lol

[young harbor]

?

[hollow wasp]

OH

[young harbor]

As in languages or as in understanding of natural language via python?

[hollow wasp]

wait

I forgot this is the python server.

[young harbor]

I know other languages, I also relate.

[hollow wasp]

I thought this was another overall coding server.

[young harbor]

What is needed?

[hollow wasp]

I don't think it would be too hard to create machine learning. At least the chat bot one.

I don't know that on the top of my head, sorry.

[young harbor]

Fair enough, I can make a chatbot but I meant data research with phd or palo alto level research or research with a company like neuralink.

[obsidian acorn]

for those,

well, it is not hard, if you are familiar with that, but we do have a lot of modules to help in that instance

but that requires a really good grasp on the basics of python, understanding of how machine learning works, and how to use the different modules to make them do what you want them to do

There may be a steep curve, but once you are on the other sides, its just small mountains

[young harbor]

I can do alot of it in py but I need to read the function definitions so I can understand how what is called really works, I am doing about 16 hours a day study (Finished first year uni 3 months before last assignment was due) 6 days a week. No idea how to get the work and github seems so damn fiddly and like you just give away your work for nothing @obsidian acorn .

[obsidian acorn]

Ok, I am not sure I understand everything you just said, but

what do you have in mind?

of doing, in terms of research, and the likes?

[young harbor]

Two things, machine learning for automation (probably machine vision) and computer-brain link devices much later down the road.

As in the definitions of all the function I import from modules.

Knowing that: from sklearn.tree import DecisionTreeClassifier
classifier = DecisionTreeClassifier(criterion = 'entropy', random state = 0) works is great but what is greater is reading the function rather than knowing what the function calls for.

[obsidian acorn]

got ya

looks like you are already on the right path

and overtime, you will find ways of increasing efficiency, and encompassing more things

[young harbor]

What are employers looking for? And how difficult is it really to make complex AI, it seems to me that the barrier is processing power and data size rather than refining algorithms. But I guess maybe there are other things when you think about the fact the hardware might need completely knew programs depending on what you are making.

[obsidian acorn]

They may not necessarily need new, as much as tweaking what's already there to improve handshake, and increase efficiency

creating new, is always set as last resort,

[young harbor]

Do you think the processing power is a limiting factor? or do we just need more people to start writing automation stuff?

[obsidian acorn]

which is why know the basics is great, then you can adapt to new platforms, as needed

[young harbor]

And Ai algorithms.

[obsidian acorn]

both

but we are reaching our bottleneck, in terms of processors,

[young harbor]

Because I made an AI for oldschool runescape and it was just too intensive.

Well they are going quantum, but I think they are developing new languages for it because its fiddly.

[hollow mantle]

@drowsy vale Programming and CyberSecurity overlap some, and if you know a lot about one you'll be able to learn the other fairly easily

You basically just need to know a lot about computers

[opal niche]

I'm going to study ethical hacking and needed to know Python

[main thicket]

@young harbor The problem isnt computational power

We can walk from portugal to the other end of Russia if we want, that doesnt mean the problem is our ability to walk efficiently. We find the best way to travel

The problem is us finding the algoirithms and techniques that help us train the quickest and get the best results

Choosing and developing neural network architectures, choosing algorithms that converge the fastest, and so on

[halcyon turret]

processing power is a limiting factor yes

but so is algo design

[drowsy vale]

do you guys use grep and awk oneliners

[cunning notch]

seems like an odd thing to ask in #career-advice

[halcyon turret]

no I don't use grep or awk oneliners

[woven harness]

grep sure, never did learn awk or any of those tools

[main thicket]

I haven't ever used awk on my own. Everyone grepa a bit

[stray dock]

Wrong channel

(but yes, everyone greps a whole lot)

[queen girder]

is there a games development route with python?

everyone recommends java

[indigo sleet]

I would recommend C# or C++

it is possible, yeah, it's just a pain

python isn't that well-suited to it

but pygame, kivy, ogre3d, etc are things you can use

[main thicket]

Yeah, no Java or Python for gamedev, please. Just use C++ or C#

C++ if you want to work in a bigger studio

C# works otherwise

[halcyon turret]

for 2D games Lua is great

https://love2d.org/

[craggy willow]

Java is 👌 for game development

Also js for games is lit

Very easy

[woven harness]

honestly use unity

[halcyon turret]

Godot

srs

[woven harness]

i never did like godot, kinda felt like all the peices were there but it just falls short in some aspects, i say unity because that C#

coding a game the raw way is only rally good for learning how its done, its kinda like opengl programming, sure learning how those triangles are made is fun, but no one is going to want to build a world 1 vertice at a time lol

but really nothing beats imho html5 canvas for games, its easy and even phones these days can run em

phaser.io ftw in that regard

[halcyon turret]

yeah phaser.io is great 😃

[solemn valley]

Building small 2D game frameworks on OpenGL base using java was quite a fun project last school year, it really does help understanding games, especially the mathematical aspect

[halcyon turret]

I made a triangle in OpenGL

was hard

[cunning notch]

this discussion is probably outside the bounds on Python #career-advice at this point

if we could shift it to off-topic that'd be great

[daring hawk]

what are the concepts to grab before becoming a web dev and I mean the theoratical concepts...
for example from OOP concepts, WEB concepts, and like databases etc..
Can anybody help me out with that ?

[halcyon turret]

Model–view–controller

Virtual DOM

Promises

[daring hawk]

@halcyon turret just these three ?

[halcyon turret]

no, loads more
full stack web dev is a big subject

its hard to know the order to learn things TBH

probably best of using project-based learning and just diving into a fullstack project

[daring hawk]

yeah thanks @halcyon turret

I would really appreciate that

[halcyon turret]

a good order would be:

1. try and make a front-end only site using vanilla JS or Jquery

2. rewrite that site in React/Vue/Angular6

3. try a flask backend

4. either try django or make your flask backend more complex

5. look into other backend languages

[viscid vapor]

(not that related, but OOP and databases are not theoretical concepts)

[main thicket]

OOP and databases are essentially both very abstract concepts

Even if they aren't taught that way

Databases has behind it the entire field of relational algebra https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_algebra

OOP too used to be more abstract in the past but newer languages ruined what it means to be OOP

[indigo sleet]

[vivid dock]

Soi read an article about write unmaintainable code to keep a job for life time (somewhat of a joke). But how much does it actually apply in the field

[solemn valley]

I read about a guy who told his company that if they would fire him their code wouldnt work anymore some time ago. The day after he got fired the code didnt work anymore. It turned out that he wrote some piece of cryptic code which nobody understood through which he could crash the system.

[vivid dock]

And my question stands stronger

[halcyon turret]

this happens a lot lol

[pastel sapphire]

Where I work has a legacy system that had 2000 lines of code for one frame that essentially picks up two database tables and displays them, it had a hardcoded a variable in a hidden class that stopped it being dynamic so it fell over a year later and got remade to be dynamic and done in 400 lines. All made more complex so this guy could make himself look better. In the end this resulted in a bunch of developers laughing and facepalming at his code 🙃

[vivid dock]

May be it was a laugh, but I'm guessing it took some time to rewrite?

[pastel sapphire]

2 weeks in total with user testing and all else that follows + other work was being done at the same time

[indigo sleet]

It is fairly common for developers to write cryptic code to try to keep their jobs

Sabotaging the company because they fired you is illegal, though

[rare sand]

it's sounds very unhealthy to have that kind of relationship to your job.

reminds me of that steam twitter stuff

totally surreal

[halcyon turret]

steam twitter stuff?

[rare sand]

some steam dev posted a ton of tips for working in a company like valve. and they all evidenced an extremely unhealthy working environment.

a redditor compiled all the tweets into a single reddit post.. shouldnt be hard to google.

[halcyon turret]

valve are rly weird

the devs don't have set projects

[rare sand]

yeah well that handbook you read paints them in a very favorable light.

and is basically propaganda, he claims

intentionally leaked because it makes valve seem like some sort of amazing dev wonderland

[pulsar drum]

it's this https://www.reddit.com/r/valve/comments/8zmp07/former_valve_employee_tweets_his_experience_at/

[vapid jay]

Hey guys, so I have a skills assessment that's due Thursday and I'm sweating beads. So a potential employer in Madison, WI decided they liked my portfolio, doing a phone interview with me, etc. Currently, I'm at the second to final stage which is the skills assessment. Is it considered bad if I ask questions regarding how to complete the skills assessment? I really want this job.

[pulsar drum]

From an honesty/moral perspective, idk.

But if you get the job and you dont know what you are doing, that will probably be bad

Of course you will learn things on the job

but they expect some baseline level of skill

which is kind of the purpose of these skill assessments

so if you are really struggling to do it, it may be bad for you down the road should you land the job.

thats my take on it

I've helped you a bit and some of the mistakes you made worry me. Like trying to load a python script by linking it in the html with a script tag

[main thicket]

Given the help you ask for is small, it's not too bad imo. Googling something is fair game, and so is using an online chat community.

Dont expect people to do the thing for you

[vapid jay]

@pulsar drum Yeah, I haven't used Python in months. The last project I worked on was all JavaScript and that was with the help of my tutor.

[vivid dock]

I asked for details about a job recently, he understood it as me wanting sources to learn the language from ground up, and immediately got put off wuth a response indicating he felt I was npt qualified for it. I cleared up the confusion with me wanting sources to deepen my understanding, in relation to the word id do

So, it can be harmful if youre not specific about what youre looking for. Id imagine not all interviewers would reveal their opinions as easly as mine did

[vapid jay]

Well I'm surprised I've gotten as far as I did. They saw my projects, liked it, had me explain it in detail. After that, they did a phone interview, I told them my skills and how I didn't have knowledge of Docker or Django. After /that/, they still contact me and ask me to do a skills assessment. If I finish 75% of the assessment, do you believe that'd be considered a fail?

So far, I'd say I'm at the half-way point.

[vivid dock]

No idea, I'm still waiting for my skill test 😅

[vapid jay]

xD Good luck, I hope you're not like me right now!

[rare sand]

if you can't finish it, that's probably gonna put you below anyone who did finish it, no matter how poor their execution is. getting it done is crucial, imo.

after all, that's what a real job is all about. getting shit done. any way you can.

I do think that if you had an otherwise excellent interview (and it helps if you're a sociable and charming person and if they think you'd fit into their culture) then even a poorly completed task could net you the job. they can teach you how to be better but you should already be able to get it done.

fwiw the last time we hired someone for our team, we did not pick the best coder. we picked one of the guys who had gotten the task done, and seemed like he'd fit into the team, but wasn't quite as good as some of the others. the CTO was more concerned with a good team dynamic than having the best programmers in the world.

[vivid dock]

Getting it done, over well done would also (no confirmation, but sounds reasonable) inform the employer about what you know, and what they need to teach you

[rigid tree]

Im looking for some coaches I will pay you in RS3 cash.

[rare sand]

that's not what this channel is for, and what in the world, who pays for programming coaching with runescape money :D

[viscid vapor]

who buys a gf with runescape money

[quasi lark]

I was confused with wtf is RS3 cash why do i get only runescapes on google is this some cryptic shit

[vapid jay]

Anyone have any tips on how to effectively communicate to a recuiter that you are looking for roles that would be open to an experienced SysAdmin, who is looking to move into a development role.

When I've tried, I've always ended up being shown positions that are either looking for experienced developers or uni-grads with no experience in the workplace at all.

[ocean barn]

Sounds like devops might be your thing @vapid jay you get to use your sysadmin skills but work closely with developers and also write code, then you'll have direct access to the code being developed and you can prove yourself by making PR's/MR's for it

[halcyon turret]

devops is a great move for a sys admin yes

[vapid jay]

ok, how likely would a devops role be available for someone with little/no dev experience?

[halcyon turret]

would be tough

[vapid jay]

(as this is the trouble I have currently, I need assistance to learn, as I'm a slow learner on my own)

[rare sand]

for an experienced sysadmin? I'd say your chances would be pretty good in devops.

[halcyon turret]

you could try going for internships

[ocean barn]

it's a mixed bag, in my team we're half n half, some only learning to code now after 30 years of sysadmining

so it's not impossible, but proving you can write some python, even just a simple script to do a thing is a good start

[rare sand]

if you can demonstrate your coding skills through a nice github page or some projects or something and you've got a good track record as a sysadmin, I don't see why you wouldn't be considered for devops stuff.

[vapid jay]

it's irritating, as in my current role, there are a number of things I could be developing... it's just the company aren't interested in doing it.

[ocean barn]

then it's definitely time to leave the company

[rare sand]

been there done that

[ocean barn]

if a company is not interested in improving, it's dying

[vapid jay]

It's not IT focused, and this is the Issue. IT doesn't earn anything so it's a cost. therefore they've only got that they have to have.

[rare sand]

some companies just don't understand the value of dev

I worked for one of those

I wanted to write automation

they refused me the opportunity

asked me questions like "are you sure you're working in the right place?"

[vapid jay]

I'd like to leave, but I won't get another role with my skillset without a massive paycut.

[rare sand]

devops wouldn't be a paycut, I bet.

[vapid jay]

lemon - this is what I'm thinking.

was your one a manufacturer using people instead of robots.

cos mine is.

[rare sand]

mine was an internet service provider

[vapid jay]

Christ...an ISP with no thought on dev... OUCH.

[halcyon turret]

that's worrying lol

[rare sand]

the CEO was all about just do everything manually

literally told me "your job is to work in excel, not automate it"

glad I got out

paid well, though

sort of an ops job

I really wanted to make it devops

but nope

[halcyon turret]

your job is to work in excel, not automate itrip

what causes managers to have mindsets like this

[vapid jay]

yeah, I basically manage the entire IT estate alone. it's only 25 users, 3 servers... and it's old... which is why theywere willing to pay so much for me. I have the skills in their OS.

I did manage to get everyone on Win10... but the servers, alas, 2008.

[ocean barn]

yikes

got linux skills?

[vapid jay]

novice/as needed level.

google student.

[halcyon turret]

a Debian server would be nicer to work on than a Windows Server

[ocean barn]

cool, I started out on pure windows infrastructure, learned python and went straight into a devops role with pure linux :D

[vapid jay]

Cake - Active Directory.

all integrated around SBS 2008.

[rare sand]

I also started on windows and graduated to linux

windows servers are gross

[vapid jay]

I have a debian server here... it's hosting the webdev instance I use for a material tracking system that never got used.

SBS is suitable in this business size, but expensive and a bit clunky, but I've always been a windows user, as have all the places i've worked, and never really been in a position where I can say - we need to use XYZ.

I'm almost there in this role, but the Op Director isn't all that keen on spending money atm, AND I have to ensure we can still operate with our European HQ.... although legally we are a completely separate company.

[ocean barn]

tell him that linux is zero cost and business optimizing and creates synergy with the EU HQ

it'll enhance the business verticals horizontally

[vapid jay]

zero cost, true, but HQ are hard-line windows... so...

Which buzzword generator are you abusing there?

😛

[rare sand]

hahaha enhance the verticals horizontally

[ocean barn]

I used to work for corporate corporation, I picked up some lingo at meetings

[rare sand]

ahh, a corporate corporation

[ocean barn]

indeed

a bureaucratic bureaucracy

any ways, look for some devops roles and see what pops out

also, once you slap devops on your linkedin profile, you're suddenly hot cake

[vapid jay]

i'll keep an eye out while looking for personal python projects.

eww, linked in.

that place is a sesspit.

[ocean barn]

seriously, it's a job hunting goldmine

[rare sand]

yeah, never underestimate

[vapid jay]

i won't touch it

[ocean barn]

lemon and I get contacted weekly by headhunters

[rare sand]

absolute goldmine for me.

get over your prejudice and just do it

[vapid jay]

Hmm.

[ocean barn]

recruiters are super active on linkedin

[rare sand]

you don't have to use it actively or anything

you just need an updated, "superstar profile"

linkedin has a wizard to walk you through it

you will show up in recruiter searches

and they search for especially devs like holy shit

[vapid jay]

i don't like the idea that previous 'colleagues' of places i've worked can track me down with the thing. If I wanted to stay in contact, i'd have given them my personal info.

[ocean barn]

ignore them

[rare sand]

then don't accept their requests

[ocean barn]

that's what I do

:D

[vapid jay]

hmm

[rare sand]

I only accept requests from recruiters

and I have like 400 connections

all recruiters :D

[vapid jay]

fair enough.

[ocean barn]

but I agree, linkedin is awful and full of pretentiousness

[rare sand]

yeah it's a terrible place

[ocean barn]

now that we've sufficiently swarmed you with advice and opinions your barely asked for, I will take my leave, see you later o/

[vapid jay]

Thanks Lord Inver, much obliged.

[rare sand]

his lordship is gracious.

[vapid jay]

@rare sand Thanks for the info man. I'll get it done... with the help of cheap labor. >:) Just kidding.

[rare sand]

hey at least you found this place

use a help channel if you get stuck

[vapid jay]

I havent used Python in a while. I asked if I could use Flask to make the job easier... and they give me a big fat no

[harsh siren]

I haven’t used LinkedIn all that much,. I had a weird experience where I visited a profile of a girl I used to go grade school with. She looked me up a few days later to my surprise because I didn’t know of the ‘people who viewed your profile in last x days’ feature. I thought - Christ it’s like an anti-creepster feature

What else is so bad about LinkedIn?

[indigo sleet]

I got a lot of spam there, and they have a reputation for being pretty bad at security

You also can't get that 100% profile completion badge thing without paying

Otherwise people do say it can be a valuable resource

[rare sand]

I never paid, and I have the 100% profile completion badge thing

so not sure what you're talking about there.

[indigo sleet]

Maybe they changed it since I last used it

but you used to have to pay

[halcyon turret]

I paid regardless so IDK

[rare sand]

I'll never pay

[halcyon turret]

as far as I remember you don't get much for the money

[hollow mantle]

I've already received 2 job offers from it

The trick is to go to your suggested connects, and just spam click every single one

I've got 2,000+ connects within a few weeks

Sometimes people will message you about it and you just tell them you're reaching out to extend your network and they seemed like a valuable asset to build a professional relationship with.

Software Dev is unique in that telecommuting is super easy

Then you start getting shit like this

Because your profile has a lot of traffic

[harsh siren]

I was thinking about doing that, spam click every suggested connects. And that’s a great way to alleviate their concerns. A few weeks for 2000 connects is badass

[hollow mantle]

All you need is exposure in this biz

[harsh siren]

I think the paid version allows you to message 2nd degree connections. If they’re relevant in the industry you’re in, taking one or a dozen of those connections out to coffee is a great way to network

[hollow mantle]

2nd degree connections?

[harsh siren]

Like say you’re connected to me

[main thicket]

I got one job and started getting hundreds of views on my profile

LinkedIn is wack

[hollow mantle]

I'm working on an article rn so I can be listed in the pro finder

[harsh siren]

Like say you’re connected to me

But on the paid version you can message my direct connections

Rags that means you are desirable :3

[hollow mantle]

Ah I see

[harsh siren]

So let’s say I have 500 connects, with paid u have access to those people using a cold messaging

[hollow mantle]

I've got like 800 views, but that's just because I'm spamming

[vapid jay]

gib job

[vague maple]

is python usfull for a coding job later in my life

[solemn valley]

there are some python only jobs mainly in web development and data science/machine learning and jobs where python might be helpful for example when you want to automate lots of stuff or something

[vague maple]

so would it be good to learn js? aswell as pythom

[solemn valley]

well js is used a lot in web development so if you are aiming for python webdev learn js and python and if you are aiming for just frontend webdevelopment js

but its usually not that hard to swtich languages once you got the concepts

[vague maple]

thanks for the advice

[viscid vapor]

I interviewed a couple of professionals last week, can't remember what the second did, but the first one programmed mainly in Drupal (some php lib), with a side of JS.

He maintained and occasionally implemented features for the archives building in washington d.c.

He told me that a lot of his work was reading through dependancies for security issues and making decisions about the fastest way to do something without breaking stuff

I also asked him about python in regards ro a career, and he said it does have widespread use, but knowing another lang (JS was the first thing he recommended) can go a long ways.

Also he said that a computer science degree wasn't mandatory, but would be the deciding factor for separating a professional from the code monkeys

the other guy said he quit programming for ten years because it wasn't ever really that exciting when he told stories about work

well, there were probably other reasons, but that stood out for me.

They also said that if I enjoyed the problem solving process of programming then it would be a great career.

oh, and probably the most useful bit of info he gave me was that a github profile with a history showing collaboration on whatever project was better on a resume than a fancy solo project, because it showed that I could work with other programmers

[vivid dock]

Regarding the spam clicking connections on linkedin, I try to filter out any tech and business people first. Hopefully it tweaks the algorithm enough for me to one day spam it without getting 500 connections related to my skop clerk job

Do y'all reckon that's a good approach

[halcyon turret]

Quality over quantity probably best, within reason
might just take a little longer to build the connections up

at least just try and keep them mostly within your industry or field

[main thicket]

LinkedIn focuses way too much on your current field when you're looking at another one :P

[vivid dock]

True, I believe I'll be stuck with them until I quit

[vapid jay]

is it still required to have your full job history on Linked in.

[halcyon turret]

not sure

[main thicket]

What do you mean required? There's nothing stopping you from not putting info in afaik

[vivid dock]

Dont tell me I'll be stuck with that job and the connections related to it

[hollow mantle]

I'm doing it because I'm looking for strictly freelance/contract work. I am moving in a year so I don't want a permanent job. This means literally anybody from any field has potential to require my services

I just had a dude approach me with a security hiring business model. He didn't really realize how much it would cost, but it's cool to get approached like that.

[fluid matrix]

@main thicket

LinkedIn is wack```
It's not Linkedin that's being wack, it's recruiters!
apparently, they only get interested after you're already employed. 
Then they start DMing you with shady offers!

[alpine jacinth]

@hollow mantle would you say the fact that you spammed connection requests and got a huge connect network helped you get 2 job offers in Linkedin?

[hollow mantle]

Yes

[alpine jacinth]

Like, I thought that it was your profile and your cv what made you get offers, not the size of your network

[hollow mantle]

That and I worked on my profile for a while

[alpine jacinth]

I worked on my profile and applied to like 60 jobs so far. The closes thing I've got are notifications that recruiters looked at my application and my profile.

I have like 22 contacts righ now

[hollow mantle]

It's not amazing or anything https://www.linkedin.com/in/noah-corona-29a275169

[alpine jacinth]

The only difference from mine is that you have experience xd

I'm still in uni

[hollow mantle]

I dropped out of college 2nd year

Majoring in chemistry too haha

I got the experience from freelancing sites, but there are way better options out there

[alpine jacinth]

Any freelancing sites you could recommend?

My area is Networking and Cybersec tho

[hollow mantle]

I used Upwork, but I'm told they're pretty shady when it comes to protecting the freelancers

Freelancer.com is another i've heard of

You may have to do shit that you aren't interested in for the raw experience. I want to do AI development, but it's gonna be a bit before I am qualified

[alpine jacinth]

Alright.
I'm checking UpWork right now, thanks for the info

[hollow mantle]

Keep in mind it took me a couple months of applying for contracts to actually land one. Don't be discouraged, once you land that first one it's super easy to get the rest

[alpine jacinth]

Will keep it in mind, thank you

[alpine jacinth]

@hollow mantle What Hourly Rate should I choose?

Earning money is great but I'm not doing this for the money, more for the experience so I don't want to scare recruiters.

[umbral valley]

For your first projects like the lowest you can possibly do. I got like $5/hr for my first couple

[alpine jacinth]

Thank you

Lowest I can choose is $3 :P

What 'professional title' should I choose?
IT Security and Networking Student
IT Security and Networking Professional

I'm still a student but Idk if that will scare all offers

I know these things, I just dont have job experience

[alpine jacinth]

'IT Security and Networking Technician' that's the spot 😂

[tawny quartz]

@alpine jacinth It's a professional title, so go with 'IT Security and Networking Professional'

Alternatively, 'Cybersecurity and IT professional', depending on your skillset

"IT security" seems to imply (to me at least) that your security knowledge is limited to IT and not other areas of security, like reverse engineering, red teaming, etc. If that's your intent, great.

[alpine jacinth]

@tawny quartz thing is that's the name of my degree in my country: "Bachelor of Security in Information Technology"

[tawny quartz]

Yeah, then IT Security definitely

[alpine jacinth]

But we also learn things like penetration testing along a little programming, cisco networking, malware analysis

risk management

[tawny quartz]

Oh

Then I think Cybersecurity would be better than "IT Security"

[alpine jacinth]

Yeah I also thing that's more appropiate:
Cybersecurity and Networking Professional

[tawny quartz]

Would capture that you have a broader set of skills and knowledge than, say , someone who's done a Security+ and CCNA Security or what not

Yeah

[alpine jacinth]

thanks

[tawny quartz]

No problem

If you want experience and some cashflow, bug bounties are a good source of freelance cybersecurity work

Bugcrowd is the most well-known: https://bugcrowd.com/programs

Met their CTO and a member of their tech staff a few weeks ago, they seem pretty chill and reputable

[umbral valley]

Think that’s more used than hackerone?

[tawny quartz]

No idea

Wait, jk

I think I talked to Hackerone actually

lol

Yeah, it was hackerone, derp

A lot of companies also run their own programs, such as Microsoft and Google

[umbral valley]

Yeah. They’re generally on H1 though too but worth checking big companies websites

[tawny quartz]

If you get a bounty, the cash is nice, but it's far more valuable as a resume item, interview talking point, and sheer experience gain

Regardless of the position, it shows you have the dedication to get the job done

[alpine jacinth]

tbh I'm more into networking

[tawny quartz]

Once upon a time, I was too, then I realized cybersecurity had most of the aspects of networking that I liked with a bunch of other cool goodness

Just an anecdote

Have you considered a CCNA?

[alpine jacinth]

I doing the last semester of the 2 years NetAcad course in order to get the ccna

I'm doing the last of the 4 Netacad courses

Maybe I'll take the ICND 1 first to get the CCENT

@tawny quartz @hollow mantle what do you think

[tawny quartz]

The second paragraph, maybe just say you're close to completing a CCNA, instead of details on the course

[alpine jacinth]

How would you phrase it?

I'm not a native speaker and it shows, I know 😂

[tawny quartz]

"I'm experienced with Cisco networking technology, and am close to completing a Cisco CCNA certification."

[alpine jacinth]

ty :>

[tawny quartz]

Probably good to name a few more vendors if you have knowledge about them, like Windows, Linux, etc.

[alpine jacinth]

Oh

I thought that was like implied xd

[tawny quartz]

Like, if you know how to fix issues on Windows

Not just use it

[alpine jacinth]

Like, if you know Cybersec and networking but you don't know Windows and Linux then how do you even... xd

OH

[tawny quartz]

Once you get to a certain level it's implied, but while you're a student personally I think it's worth mentioning

Since there are definitely people out there that only know one or the other

I know a lot of people that know almost nothing about Windows because they use Linux and/or Macs exclusively

[alpine jacinth]

True

Should I make like a list?

Other technologies I'm experienced with include:
Windows
Linux
Cyberoam Firewalls
OWASP ZAP
Netsparker
Burp Suite
Wireshark
Nmap
VMware
Virtual Box

[tawny quartz]

Probably put in the "Skills" section

Not in the overview

[alpine jacinth]

Included in those available on the Skills section, rest in overview 🤔

alright just sent it

wait, I need to pay and buy tokens to be able to apply to jobs?

[tawny quartz]

That sounds sketchy

[alpine jacinth]

it's UpWork

Zer0 recommended it to me

freelancer.com looks even more sketchy jesus lol

[jade summit]

having to pay to apply for jobs = avoid at all costs

[thick abyss]

honestly you guys are smart enough to learn python

you should learn google and facebook ads, market yourselves

[tawny quartz]

We...already know Python?

[main thicket]

Python's a common teaching language, especially for kids. I dont think you have to be particularly smart to learn it

[quasi lark]

So I intend to ditch the company i was hired cuz it was horrible and do try to find a work as freelancer or whatever, is it possible to find a oversea job with remote? Is there a recommended site that teach you all these parts?

[thick abyss]

let me rephrase, you taught yourselves programming; if you know marketing you'll be superior than every dev out there

[main thicket]

Pretty much every freelancer I've known has just has people come to them on linkedin, through their website or find them through word of mouth

[quasi lark]

I never knew that linkedin was useful, ty

[alpine jacinth]

LinkedIn appears to be the only site to find jobs that is not a scam so far lol

[tawny quartz]

What country are you in?

[quasi lark]

Me?

[tawny quartz]

Dagger, but sure, you too 😃

[quasi lark]

oh

well

I'm in japan

Honestly I always thought linked.in was service that fucks your twitter img url up

[tawny quartz]

lol

Ah, cool

[alpine jacinth]

I don't disclose🙊

[tawny quartz]

No worries, was just going to share a resource if you were in the USA

[alpine jacinth]

I'm not in the US

[vapid jay]

LinkedIn works for me

I have a few job opportunities sent to me each month

Without looking for a job

[umbral valley]

Same on indeed here

[alpine jacinth]

@vapid jay wow, What would you say is the cause of that?

@umbral valley

Is it that you have a lot of work experience or why?

[vapid jay]

Not really, I work in France in Paris and there is a lot of demand here

[umbral valley]

Graduating in December with a couple internships

[vapid jay]

People even send you job offers if you’re not done with your studies

[umbral valley]

^

Got one today actually. Lok

[alpine jacinth]

Wow, I hope that happens to me as I approach my graduation

I haven't done internships yet

[vapid jay]

I did a bachelor in computer sciences

Then I started to get very few offers

Then I started my master in computer sciences in internship (half the time working as a dev) and now I have a few every now and then

[main thicket]

Psst, networking is a great way to get internships. Go out to events and hackathons

[vapid jay]

But tbh if you accept every invitation you will get many offers

I just don’t accept people idk

[umbral valley]

I get 2-4 a month just by leaving my resume public

Graduating with a BS

[tawny quartz]

(also spamming job applications to everywhere with a application form)

[main thicket]

I barely have a complete linkedin profile and dont even do CS and i get recruiters all the time

[alpine jacinth]

I have my profile visible to linkedin users only, I dont want to appear on search engines

I'll do internships in like a year, I'm in 5th semester

[main thicket]

Earlier is always better. And 2 internships beats one :p

[vapid jay]

I would suggest making a portfolio when you have an interview

With screenshots of your projects

You did at school or in internship

[alpine jacinth]

I'm not a programmer :P

my bachelor is in cybersec and networking

best I can put in my resume is "technical expertise" I got during Cisco training labs

[main thicket]

You should probably still be programming and making things. A pretty valuable skill to develop

[alpine jacinth]

I just started learning Python when I discovered you can do Network Automation

But I dont have any projects so yeah

[main thicket]

It's going to be harder to get an internship if you dont have any projects

[alpine jacinth]

I think I'll do internships when my uni load is less

we're not suppoused to do internships until the 7th semester

[main thicket]

Uh, who said that?

[alpine jacinth]

that's like our program

even if you wanted to you could not because of the work load at school

[main thicket]

School holidays, working casually, etc

[alpine jacinth]

I think in the US or some european countries dont go to school on friday? xd

Here we go to school monday to friday, sometimes saturday too

[umbral valley]

M-F is standard

[main thicket]

Ye

[umbral valley]

Except for some CS programs later on

I never have Friday classes now but I get out at like 7-8PM

[main thicket]

Well, your schedule depends on what classes you take

[umbral valley]

Yeah. At least at my school though the later classes are just straight not offered on fridays

Most of the 300+ classes are 6PM or later

[main thicket]

Ugh, night classes

[alpine jacinth]

I take all the classes I can, cus I want to end in the 4 years. I know I could take less courses and work/intern at the same time but that would take me more years

some days i get out at 10pm

[main thicket]

I couldnt stay at uni past 6

so i leave at 6

exactly

[alpine jacinth]

not that bad

My plan is to end uni in 4 years, take as many classes as i can the first 3 years, last year I only have 2 classes so I can do internships

[main thicket]

I have a better timetable this semester :D

My plan is either a bachelors and a masters in 5 years or a bachelors and 2 masters in 6 years

Cant be failing any courses :P

[alpine jacinth]

I couldn't do a masters, I hate school xd

I just want my bachelors. I will get certified af afterwards tho

I love what I do but I hate school

[main thicket]

Pretty much a requirement for my field of choice, cant avoid it. But I like what I learn, so I dont mind it too much

[umbral valley]

I was planning on bachelors + masters in 5 but then the loan nation attacked

[alpine jacinth]

you get 4 job offers a day, shouldnt be a problem xd

jk

[umbral valley]

Said 2-4 a month :p

[main thicket]

Dont really need a masters in software work unless you're doing specific things

E.g. data science, possibly embedded systems

And thats about it as far as I can think

[umbral valley]

Teaching

[alpine jacinth]

yeah also that, i dont think i need a masters for what i want to do and if i get into something specific I just get certifications

[tawny quartz]

Btw, Glass Door is a good site for researching employers you're thinking of applying to

Was not very specific beyond "cybersecurity"

[alpine jacinth]

see? xd

and by the point you end your masters the technology is past

best way to stay up to date is certs 😎

[main thicket]

I mean, depends on what you're doing

Somewhy I dont think neural networks will be past in 2 years

[alpine jacinth]

You're underestimating Mike Zuckerberg and Elon Musk 😎

jk jk

[main thicket]

Mike

[tawny quartz]

Yeah, Master's is getting specialized in a field not a technology or vendor

[alpine jacinth]

You're underestimating Steve Jobs

[viscid vapor]

jim jobs

[tawny quartz]

Fields move fast but not that fast

[viscid vapor]

erik musk

george soros

bob gates
(sorry I could not resist)

[tawny quartz]

? ?

[alpine jacinth]

what's your bachelors in @tawny quartz ?

[tawny quartz]

CS

Masters in CS as well

Computer Science

[alpine jacinth]

i thought you said masters in cybersecurity

[tawny quartz]

That was the focus

But that's not what's on the degree

At my school there's computer science, and that's it unless you're focusing on hardware

[umbral valley]

Same

[alpine jacinth]

😐

[umbral valley]

We technically have a SWE degree but it’s the same classes under the college of engineering

[main thicket]

We have BSc (CS), BCs and BE (SWE)

One is under faculty of science with lots of electives, the other is similar but under Eng with fewer electives, the other is an engineering so you do more maths, more projects, get engineering qualification and the rest is about the same

[vapid jay]

Just wondering how many hours of class per week do you have in a master in America ?

In Computer sciences or similar

[halcyon turret]

in the UK, a masters would have 20-35 hours of classes per week
varies massively by program and by university

[vapid jay]

Alright

[hollow mantle]

@alpine jacinth You get 60 free connects a month

I've never actually had to use all of them. UpWork does take a cut out of your paycheck though, so once you get some experience I'd migrated to linkedin

[alpine jacinth]

@hollow mantle 😭

[obsidian acorn]

that's new

[hollow mantle]

I've never seen that haha

My advice would be to work on generalizing your skill-set. You might have to work on things that aren't interesting or relevant just for the raw experience.

Until you're credible enough to pick and choose your contracts

[halcyon turret]

throwing a wide net at first yes
then you can specialise more once you have some experience
good advice for freelancing in anything really

[fluid matrix]

@alpine jacinth
@Zer0 would you say the fact that you spammed connection requests and got a huge connect network helped you get 2 job offers in Linkedin?@hollow mantle
what if there's a way we can help each other in this Discord and everybody will get a job just in a matter of few weeks!
wouldn't it be awesome to make this Discord group where everyone has a good job?

I have an idea

[indigo sleet]

This already sounds like a pyramid scheme

[fluid matrix]

hell no

lol

out of the total number of subscribers in this discord, how many here have a Linkedin profile?

[indigo sleet]

Not many I'd say

[halcyon turret]

50-100 out of 4000 is my guess

[fluid matrix]

@indigo sleet
the idea is to comment on each other profiles

[indigo sleet]

There's over 7000 users, that number is terrible

[halcyon turret]

7000 ? 😮

[indigo sleet]

Ah, nah

!server

[inner wren]

Server information
Created: 1 year, 7 months and 14 days ago
Voice region: vip-amsterdam
Features: VIP_REGIONS, VANITY_URL, INVITE_SPLASH

Counts
Members: 7039
Roles: 21
Text: 65
Voice: 8
Channel categories: 12

Members
1015
647
285
5092

[halcyon turret]

waow

[indigo sleet]

As you can see..

[fluid matrix]

imagine if all of us commit to it

[indigo sleet]

We'd probably get banned

[real python]

why would I commit to commenting about someone I don't know at all

[halcyon turret]

commenting on each others profiles in an organised way
is kinda gaming the system

that works on instagram but its not good for linkedin

[real python]

Smash that link in button and subscribe!

[fluid matrix]

@real python
we host coding challenges and those who get the job done win comments on their LinkedIn profiles

[indigo sleet]

No

We're not abusing linkedin

[real python]

wtf, a coding challenge tells me nothing about someone professionally

[fluid matrix]

it's was just an idea

[indigo sleet]

And that was just a denial

:P

[real python]

Can I get a coding challenge certificate to put on my resume?

[rare sand]

if you win the code jam you can probably put that on your resume along with a link to the page where we list the winners

[vapid jay]

would that have the same value as an e cert?

[rare sand]

haha. who knows.

[real python]

Signed by lemon with a dabward and a quarter of his face

[rare sand]

neither would be super valuable but that kind of thing adds up

and shows community engagement and programming spirit

[wanton holly]

with love

[rare sand]

yes that is how I sign all letters

[fluid matrix]

@real python
it seems like you're very opposed about that point of view, which is good as at least this got the conversation about this topic started in this channel!
what's your idea as far as helping each other in this discord?

[vapid jay]

Gilfoyle, in the long run being honest about yourself is better.

[real python]

I don't need a counter idea to state that falsely spamming LinkedIn is a bad idea

[hollow mantle]

definitely putting "Volunteer staff for Python systems support for community of 7,000+ members" on my resume

[real python]

LinkeIn is already spammed enough by people who send me one email and then claim we're connected, I don't need to dilute it even further with people I don't even know

[umbral valley]

I put everything I’ve ever done on my GitHub /shrug

[fluid matrix]

@vapid jay
I don't get the point you're trying to make.
what about that is dishonest?

[hollow mantle]

I dunno, being honest is overrated

[vapid jay]

What about falsely spamming Linkedln is dishonest?

[hollow mantle]

Accuracy is more important

[umbral valley]

The falsely part

[vapid jay]

same thing as lying in your resume

and then finding out that you are not qualified for the job

[hollow mantle]

Ah but that's not the same thing

[vapid jay]

Still being dishonest

[fluid matrix]

@vapid jay
What about falsely spamming Linkedln is dishonest?
have you read the part where I was speaking about coding chanllenges?

[hollow mantle]

imo as long as you can back it up, you have some wiggle room with the truth

[real python]

again, a coding challenge speaks nothing about you in a professional setting

[vapid jay]

Yeah I think that putting the coding competition you participate in your resume is fine

[fluid matrix]

@real python
again, a coding challenge speaks nothing about you in a professional settingwell, comments will be about the coding challenges not about fake experiences.... read my post carefully at least 😃

[indigo sleet]

This argument has outgrown this channel

[fluid matrix]

@vapid jay
Yeah I think that putting the coding competition you participate in your resume is fine
Those who get the job done win comments on their profiles about the hosted challenge.
imagine having 1000+ comments on your LinkedIn about something you have done! that will certainly get people interested when browsing

[real python]

The only thing I'd imagine a hiring manager would do when seeing 1000+ of essentially the same comment on a profile is move on to the next person

[indigo sleet]

if it wasn't entirely obvious

you should move to an off-topic channel

[fluid matrix]

@indigo sleet
nah, I'm done.
it was just an idea

[alpine jacinth]

@hollow mantle what's your idea?

[hollow mantle]

?

[alpine jacinth]

@hollow mantle Sorry my mistake

It was @fluid matrix

I see he was attacked

[alpine jacinth]

Hey we can install Master's degrees in our phones now😂

[graceful wedge]

Lmao, good career choice*

[indigo sleet]

Not an off-topic channel.

[autumn jackal]

Is there anyone who works in a foreign country, in a company which needs you to know let's say English?
I was going to ask if they require toefl of ielts for proving you know English or can I just simply go in there and say I know English and I met with all of the requirements you seek, I want to work here.

[karmic bramble]

I'd assume if the main language of that company is English, your interview will be held in English as well, which should be enough for them as proof that you know the language. They'd probably state so in the requirements of your job offer if you need a specific certificate, of nothing is listed there I would not expect it to be needed.

[main thicket]

@autumn jackal jobs don't tend to require certificates to show your capability. Your visa or an educational institute might.

Jobs would likely weed people out at the interview stage

[woven harness]

I need to start looking into a python related job, i feel like i could do whatever is asked of me

having skills like knowing howto lookup functions, and read errors and know how syntax works(not just for python)

[vivid dock]

It's one thing to feel like you can, but you have to prove it to an employer somehow

(and find one non the less)

[woven harness]

Thats all i would need

my issue is i dont have a degree, i graduated high school , back when that meant something vs. a G.E.D

[vivid dock]

There's a few here that got a python job, without a degree

[woven harness]

Can we discuss freelance here aswell? because ive felt that was something i wanted todo but could never quite break into it.

Ive also felt that doing that would be nice on a resume aswell, for some real world applications

[vivid dock]

Probably would, I don't know much about it though.

@hollow mantle Seems to know a bit about it though, if they're here

[alpine jacinth]

@woven harness Yeah we discussed freelance a couple days ago, Zer0 has the experience

[woven harness]

im just kinda curious if you have to like market yourself or do people just come to you asking for things, ive googled but its mostly about howto code(which i know, why would you freelance before you code?)

really just looking for some REAL advice

[vivid dock]

From how I understood it, you gotta do a bit of digging yourself for experience and expanding your knowledge

Then something like building a community on sites like linkedin, and people come to you through that

But that's just my understanding of it

[woven harness]

Right, that makes sense, i love to expand my knowledge of coding, i code in several languges(you really have to these days) and i understand the concepts of computer engineering(self taught) so building a community is what i should work on.

[vivid dock]

[woven harness]

Wow, really

[vivid dock]

Again, zer0 seems to be the guy here. So don't take my word for it

[indigo sleet]

I should stress that we don't support that behaviour

It's not in the spirit of how LinkedIn was designed and intended to be used

[woven harness]

Yea, my morality was like...but...but...thats bruteforcing

I mean with that logic i could click on every link, one of them will give me waht i want

But the concept behind kinda just being "greedy" with who you invite into your network does have its merits.

[vivid dock]

Well, I'm a bit on edge on it

Like, I don't want to spam everyone. But "spam" people i can see being related

[woven harness]

It feels like no matter what its about who you know, not what you know

[indigo sleet]

That's true for many fields

[elfin phoenix]

Might be more appropriate to say it's about who knows you.

[obsidian acorn]

what do you guys think about bootcamps?

[halcyon turret]

bootcamps not worth the money

cos they can cost thousands

[hollow mantle]

I don't really consider it "spam" because I respond to every pm I receive, I'm still interesting and building professional relationships with the individuals.

If they accept, it means they are willing to open dialogue regardless of being strangers. It's not breaking TOS, but it's using a network system to its full potential.

For example, when I publish my article, a lot of people are going to see it, maybe even 1 or 2 will like it enough to give their thoughts

It's pretty niche though, for getting a job other than freelancing gigs, I'd say use connects to open dialogue with people relavent in your field.

[vivid dock]

Wait, I gotta talk to people as well as connect

inner introvert shudders

[hardy rivet]

Says the guy who's a helper on a popular Discord channel

[pulsar drum]

I don't consider those comparable

[karmic bramble]

not at all

as a Helper here, you offer something to people who ask for it, and you're hidden behind a nickname

initiating a conversation with real people, especially when you want to ask for a favor and have to make the first step, is far more challenging for introfǘert people

how the fuck did I mistype that so badly?

[elfin phoenix]

That's impressive.

[karmic bramble]

apparently I first typed an f, wanted to backspace it and instead fat-fingered on ´+ü

[rare sand]

I didnt even know you could do that

[solemn valley]

if i fat finger on that i get ´ü

[karmic bramble]

you need ´ to be a dead key

kill it.

then it works

[solemn valley]

but i need it to make my codeblock ticks 😦

[karmic bramble]

you tap twice then

[vivid dock]

But yeah I agree

Its easier to hide behind an alias and responding to questions over initiating the conversation for your own progress (or a mutual reason)

[hardy rivet]

I know it's more challenging, as an introvert myself I'm acquainted with the difficulties. My point is just that it's not the talking to people: we do that just fine in a comfortable environment about familiar subjects. It's a) talking to people you don't know and can't predict b) about subjects you aren't as comfortable/familiar with.

I am still learning to cope with that myself, but I think understanding it is the first step to dealing with it. You can start to work on understanding other people and their motivations and reactions, and work to become more of an expert in your subject (or develop confidence in your expertise).

[vivid dock]

Interesting points

Maybe I should try to challenge myself into interacting with new connections. Ask about a summary of their fields, kind of thing

[thick abyss]

@woven harness well, having the ability to market yourself will put you at the top of the pyramid, it takes a lot of grind going through the normal (free) channels, proving yourself and hoping you'll be contacted by someone, if your purpose is to build great things and be a part of a team that you already admire or being employed by someone; the academic grind might be worth it for you, establishing your name in the community, blogging etc, but if you already established yourself, you have a legit footprint that people can look at and you're still having trouble getting clients, run paid ads on social media that leads to a sales page for your services, maybe capture their email and mass email everyone when you add a new blog-post, someone out there will see it, contact you and pay you your 1k or 30k for your service

[vapid jay]

Hey, has anyone done an interview with Hadoop before?

[dusk forge]

Hi everyone, I'm currently an apprentice at a huge IT company in the software department. I'm learning python by myself (never learned to code in school nor elsewhere) and I am still a beginner who just writes small scripts like "guess the number" or stuff where I use the api of a visual recognition service. Now I want to know what kind of learning path I should take to make my python skills to money in the future because if I continue repeating the same things I'll never be able to land a job. Any advice is appreciated 😃

[solemn valley]

the major use cases for python are backend webdevelopment, usually with either the flask or the django framework, things around data science and machine learning with libs like numpy pandas tensorflow keras etc etc (really a lot of them) and for general automation for example in dev ops. Note, dev ops isnt centered around coding its just one of the facets of it

[dusk forge]

Thank you very much!

[tawny quartz]

(and cybersecurity)

[main thicket]

(also surprising amount of piecing things together in robotics)

[quasi lark]

When I'm trying to apply for a job like developing web services, what would be a good project that can be made alone by myself for a portfolio?

or data science

I'm thinking to create a blog for myself using django or flask for web service application

[wanton holly]

a personal website is a very good way to do it, cause it's easy for them to access and stuff

[quasi lark]

So blog is a go to then?

[vivid dock]

blog / portfolio like sounds good in this case yeah

[quasi lark]

I guess I'll start making one then, thanks 😛

[vapid jay]

Add it to your github as well

[vapid jay]

Just a quicky- My employer is starting a mentorship program and is looking for people who would be interested. You can pm me for more info, and see below for details of what is covered in the program.

Members of the programming mentorship will learn...
-Python 3
-C
-Dockerscript
-html
-JavaScript

We also are launching this program for System Administration, which includes learning of...
-Linux and Windows
-Powershell and Bash
-KVM and Hyper-V
-Docker
-task automation

[solemn valley]

is this some form of recruitment attempt for your program?

[forest pewter]

!kick @vapid jay Advertising

[inner wren]

:ok_hand: kicked @clever shard (Advertising).

[fossil rain]

@forest pewter pls ban him he did that on other channels too

[solemn valley]

yeah in #python-discussion

[fossil rain]

!ban

!ban @clever shard

[indigo sleet]

We were already aware

There will be no flash mob today.

[fossil rain]

how long is his ban

[indigo sleet]

Also, get out of this channel :v

[vapid jay]

I'm thinking if I should learn frontend too or go full backend with python?

[halcyon turret]

yes learn front end too

you may as well

[vapid jay]

and honestly I don't really know what to learn regarding backend

[halcyon turret]

Flask and Django

[vapid jay]

learn a framework and databases? and thats it?

I honestly have no knowledge regarding networks, like nothing at all, is that a problem?

[halcyon turret]

there is always new stuff to learn

[vapid jay]

like what stuff?

[halcyon turret]

you don't neccesarily need to know that much about networks

um
stuff like GraphQL
Redis
SQL vs NoSQL

server side rendering

auth

[umbral valley]

Neo4J is cool

Actually starting to use it now

[vapid jay]

how do I get to know about all this stuff

[halcyon turret]

mostly docs TBH

and videos

start with Flask and Django docs

[weary gazelle]

@vapid jay imo you shouldn't go by "what should I learn" but rather "what am I interested in"

Pick a project and learn the tools you need

[vapid jay]

well I'm not sure if I can do that

[weary gazelle]

if you force yourself to learn something it won't really be enjoyable

at least it's like that for me

[vapid jay]

life isn't really enjoyabe ; )

[stray dock]

can confirm

[quasi lark]

My advice is to reward yourself or make someone reward you after if you do something forcefully

[dull ruin]

Hi all.
I'm a freshman graduate.
I practice python in pen/paper,coz I don't have a laptop.
Currently based out of India.
Need a job/paid internship urgently.
What should I do?

[candid pulsar]

@dull ruin find something that isn't CS

You are going to need to practice developing on a computer and have some experience before you are able to get a job as a python developer

I would recommend learning JavaScript, HTML, CSS, and working on a public computer somewhere, like in a library or at your school.

Then try to get a job doing tech support for a technology company

And try to learn/practice more dev skills and then try to get a job

But there is absolutely no way you can get a job by only practicing python with pen/paper

[halcyon turret]

ye probably best to find any office position and focus on getting access to a computer regularly before you can really focus on python

pen and paper is not rly going to work

[vapid jay]

How much do junior python devs make / hour

[real python]

Do you want to specify a particular part of the world?

[sly mountain]

uk

[indigo sleet]

Huh? But someone else asked that question..

[sly mountain]

I'm interested in the answer

And since the guy probably won't be back for it

I'm gonna steal it

[main thicket]

Your salary always depends on what you do. Language is only a tool. It's like asking "what does a person who uses a shovel in their job make?". Depends completely on whether you're digging graves at the cemetery, doing construction or mining for rare metals

[dapper kernel]

how much does a person who who breathes in their job make?

[vapid jay]

Pls no shitpost here

[quasi lark]

Depends on how he can breathe well in programming language #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

[grim belfry]

I'm not sure about the UK but in southern california starting salary for a fresh college grad is around 60-90k

I started at 85k for example. But I also had offers elsewhere where the cost of living was lower - in cheaper places like raleigh my starting salary would have been 75k

but generally speaking go for the job that makes you happy, not the one that makes you money. All programming jobs pay a liveable salary anyways

[quasi lark]

Oh yeah

Jobs with 2 agents between you and company is worst thing you want to do when you do freelancing i heard

[hollow mantle]

Freelancing just isn't really a great gig if you have an alternative imo. Unless you like talking to humans

I can't wait till I can just be told what needs to be done and not have to worry about dealing with consumers

[real python]

Sometimes management is worse than consumers 😉

But in general, probably not

Freelancing also has a higher risk of inconsistent pay until you’re well established, and even then it’s still a risk

But it is nice when it works

[hardy rivet]

I generally break it down in my mind something like this (obviously there are exceptions, and it's situation dependent):

• Freelancing: Good/inconsistent pay, great flexibility, moderate-high workload
• Employee: Decent/consistent pay, some flexibility maybe, moderate workload
• Employer: Great/semi-consistent pay, good flexibility, high workload

[halcyon turret]

Would have thought a steady employee would pay more than freelancer TBH

[hollow mantle]

Maybe if you're a well established freelancer you can net more

My end goal is Architecture Design

Get paid 130k/yr to sit back and tell people what needs to be done

Never have to code another line again... for work at least

[real python]

I thought you didn't want to deal with humans :p

[hollow mantle]

Engineers aren't human, lets be honest

[real python]

We're probably worse tbh

[hardy rivet]

My impression is that a well established freelancer stands to potentially make more than an equally experienced employee, but it'll be more seasonal and of course without benefits. I could be wrong on that, I'd love to see some data either way

[hollow mantle]

That's true. There's definitely a lot of liberty when it comes to charging clients, and choosing workload/hours.

[umbral valley]

Considering all benefits - health insurance, 401k matching, etc etc. it’s probably pretty close to even. But freelancing gives you more freedom to choose where you want your money to go

[main thicket]

^^

Freelancers earn more because they usually don't get benefits

[lean stirrup]

Is $70,000 a good starting salary for a Junior Java Developer in the Midwest (Omaha)

[main thicket]

Sounds decent to me from what I've heard

[quasi lark]

70,000$?

damn

They really pay well for programmer don't they

[lean stirrup]

lol, ok, sweet guess I got a good deal

[quasi lark]

If you can live and have fun with that salary I'm pretty sure you are fine if the job is fun too

[tawny quartz]

If you have a significant amount of experience, consulting can make a ridiculous amount of money

But that's more you're the employer than just freelancing

[lean stirrup]

I only have 2 summer internships and from what I've seen is that most consulting companies only pay like max 60k

[hardy rivet]

USD? That seems low

[lean stirrup]

yeah thats what I thought too

[hardy rivet]

I mean, entry level sure

But not max

[lean stirrup]

well I am entry level so

Max that I have found as initial offer

[vapid jay]

hi all!

i'm trying to switch careers and looking for some advice and recommendations

[lean stirrup]

where are you coming from?

[vapid jay]

@lean stirrup non programming. i'm kinda doing nothing now but I've worked in the clinical research field and I have an MD.

I'm literally starting to learn python. I have a lot of free time and want to basically so a self boot camp.

[lean stirrup]

That is definitely a good start, a lot of your own projects can definitely help out. Check out Github or some other version control system. That is a tool used all over in programming to help keep track of code and keep it in a central place to host it

[vapid jay]

So people tell me to publish stuff on github. Sorry if this is a general question, but what exactly do I do on github?

[lean stirrup]

It is just pretty much a file storage system for code

It allows you to save it there and it also has a lot of cool functionality that will allow you to "undo" changes in the past while keeping others. also very nice when collaborating with others

[vapid jay]

like to show future jobs "here here's my xyz program i made"?

[lean stirrup]

yeah it is a very common place to have a portfolio of projects as well

[vapid jay]

because essentially i'll be coming from a zero coding background and my github will be my coding resume?

[lean stirrup]

I guess I would say first start off learning the basics of python (or whatever language) and learn to do normal if statements, for loops etc. until you got the basics down pretty well

then you can go from there and branch out into a lot of different stuff depending on what you want to do

[vapid jay]

yup that's what i'm focused on.

how do i connect to contribute to projects?

[lean stirrup]

on github?

[vapid jay]

yeah

[lean stirrup]

so what you will want to do is create an account and then clone the repository

honestly git might be a lot for a pure beginner

although if you are just working alone on projects it makes it much easier

git can get pretty in-depth so just check out how git works as there are a lot of functionality to it

[elfin phoenix]

Once you, ahem, git going, it's very handy, since it keeps track of the changes you commit, so if you completely mess up a project, you can revert to a working version.

[vapid jay]

any advice on what do learn after python?

[elfin phoenix]

Depends on what area of work you're interested in, really.

[vapid jay]

something that i might be able to use my medical degree with or whatever helps me land a job quicker

[lean stirrup]

do you like designing things like webpages and forms or do you like a lot of hard theoretical puzzles?

[vapid jay]

no idea. i would learn towards front end i guess

[lean stirrup]

well that would probably then steer towards javascript, css, and html and then kinda flexible from there

python is starting to become a pretty good backend

but yeah, just get the basics of programming down for now and figure the rest out later

[tawny quartz]

Perhaps building a tool to assist with medical tasks for use by medical practitioners or by laymen

But project ideas are a bit off-topic for #career-advice, maybe move to one of the off-topic channels 😉

[quasi lark]

What you should probably doing first is to understand fundamental of programming itself (most people told me to do this)

Think of python as just a tool to do so

[vapid jay]

ok cool thanks for all the info!

[fast portal]

https://ai.google/research/teams/brain/healthcare-biosciences

[vapid jay]

ooh ok

[fast portal]

other companies doing the same

image analysis or trying to predict diagnosis based upon symptoms

[vapid jay]

that sounds right up my alley

[fast portal]

good luck, I recent switch from finance to coding

[main thicket]

Out of curiosity, why are you trying to switch into software after an MD @vapid jay ?

[serene fjord]

are there any jobs that require experience and don't suck?

[real python]

Yes

[halcyon turret]

front-end-only web dev @serene fjord
so like basic HTML and CSS sites
or wordpress support

[serene fjord]

don't require experience*

[halcyon turret]

you can get this without experience

especially if its a small employer

my friend did this

[hardy rivet]

@vapid jay I agree with the above, medical decision support is very important and only getting bigger.

[halcyon turret]

in the future, machine learning for diagnosis

[elder fog]

machines will learn how humans fall ill ...

Interesting ...

[vapid jay]

does anyone here have any experience with online computer science BS degree programs

currenty its looking like a good option for me

hmmm maybe i'll ask on reddit

[snow oyster]

hello people , i am vamshi. new to this group.

[molten spoke]

Hello there!

[snow oyster]

I would like to ask what are the essential skills for a graduate student to be hired as a python developer

in my situation i dont have an internship and i am an international student in the United States

I have no clue how should i start and what are the essential skill to be hired as the python developer

[tawny quartz]

Well, you're likely not going to be hired as a Python developer

You're going to be hired as a developer

The most essential skills in my opinion are the ability to come up with working solutions to problems, to communicate with others, and to be able to work without supervision or guidance.

[viscid vapor]

With the last programmer I spoke to irl, he told me that a github profile with a history of cooperation and accepted merges is better than a fancy sleek website made all on your own.

[serene fjord]

vroom vroom

[tawny quartz]

What point did I describe?

They're skills you develop over time

There is no "point"

It's like saying knowing how to play a piano is a point

Anyone can play a piano

But some are better than others because they put time and energy into honing the skill

[tawny quartz]

Um...sure

[hardy rivet]

@vapid jay Online programs work if you're good at self-motivating and keeping yourself on schedule. I'd see how you do with one online class before you commit to an entire degree that way

My first online class I flunked because I hadn't learned that yet. Eventually I figured it out and finished out my BS entirely online

[tawny quartz]

You have to be careful with how you manage your time and keep on top of things

[umbral valley]

also need to be particularly careful with picking the school too as there's lots of predatory "universities" that don't have any weight behind the degree

[half karma]

anyone here from the uk

just wanted to know what are the entry requirements for imperial college in the uk

im a British Citizen

[halcyon turret]

look their website

its different for every course anyway ?

[half karma]

apparently

the uk have changed from 3 A's to 3 A*"s

😦

in imperial it shows A*AA and king college it shows AAA

im kind confused

@halcyon turret

kinda

[halcyon turret]

King's College is a different university to Imperial College

they will have a lower offer

[half karma]

and lets say your not a British Citizen

they will have to get more grades

more higher grades?

[halcyon turret]

well they will likely not do A-levels at all

[half karma]

ah k

[halcyon turret]

A-levels are in the UK only

other countries don't have them

[half karma]

im currently at another country but i do have a British passport

and my school which im currently in is in the follow of Cambridge

my mother and father had decided that i shall do o levels in my current school and do a level at london

[halcyon turret]

what does in the follow of Cambridge mean

?

[half karma]

the school is qualified by cambridge

Cambridge university

..

[halcyon turret]

I'm not sure about what this means

[half karma]

its affiliated with the University Of Cambridge international examination

@halcyon turret

[halcyon turret]

ah okay
I don't know about this exam

[half karma]

o levels and a levels can be given there

and dont you know Cambridge?/