career-advice

[pine sleet]

why are you posting this here?

[teal heath]

I'm using phone to code so it will take time for me to start advanced level but I hope the resouces you gave helps

[broken knot]

To be honest, it's a bit depressing. I'm currently in Spain, where I completed a two-year vocational program in computer systems — it's one of the typical access paths to higher-level training like the Web Application Development program I'm starting this September.

The curriculum covers programming, databases, frontend/backend web dev, server config, and a final internship. But to be honest, I already know most of it — I’ve been developing on my own (github.com/mykold) for a few years now.

I feel a bit lost. On one hand, I feel like I should already be applying for jobs — I have enough experience to at least try. But on the other hand, I know that if I do find something, it’ll be hard to balance full-time work with this two-year program. I’m not sure what the right move is.

A big part of why I’m still going through with it is to get the degree on paper — just to avoid HR filters that automatically reject candidates without formal education. Even if the course itself won’t teach me much, it might help prevent future issues and give me time to meet like-minded people.

[pine sleet]

i find it odd that they're teaching you stuff you already know even in the higher level classes

[broken knot]

Programming started as a hobby for me, but over time it became something I truly want to pursue professionally. I began learning Python in 2021 and have been self-taught ever since. It's not so much about the language itself — it's about the ability to apply the skills I've gained, regardless of the language or framework. That's why I approach formal education very critically. I see little value in spending two years (around 2,000 hours) on something I can learn more efficiently on my own. I'm an autodidact :D

[mystic kiln]

Any advice on what to do for projects like yours?

[vapid violet]

Well I have not landed an internship yet so I cant say what works. My philosophy is to just do projects surrounding things that I enjoy and would be cool. My projects were not made for my resume but rather for my own enjoyment and just happen to be things that I can put on my resume. When I made the descriptions for each I specifically choose different aspects of each one that highlighted my skills. I would say that having smaller scale projects is nice as you can present a finished product. The top project is something that I am continually working on and it makes it a little bit hard to explain.

My overall advice is find a problem in a field that you enjoy. Then solve the problem with code. And it does not need to be a life changing problem either. The bottom project had the problem of I wanted to mark discord messages as "TODO" without needing to copy paste the link somewhere else.

[open ivy]

For a single position, how many people end up turning down the offer? I imagine the strongest applicants have more options.

[tribal falcon]

hi

i graduated highschool in 2022 but only very recently did i decide to go back to school i go to the university of washington but during that time period i have not done any STEM related subjects at all so no math at all no chemistry like literally nothing

last time i did math was before june 2022... so its been a reallly long time since ive done any math

[feral stone]

Does anyone here have any expierence in DevOps for GovCloud stuff? I'm working for Startup that is gonna require CJIS Compliance and I need some pointers

just like General Knowledge stuff, I've got a good start but i feel like im missing a bunch of stuff I should be looking into

[lilac yoke]

prepare for the math classes to kick your butt, calc and linear algebra can be rough

[blazing wave]

Guys does ict teach me coding?

[rain hatch]

should i learn coding or directly jump onto learning artificial intel ? cuz im doubting that ai might take over some coding jobs , even though im not sure

[icy pagoda]

some coding ones, sure
ai will also take some ai jobs too

feel free to jump into the mathematics if you want to (shouldn't require much coding rn)

although python is a straight upgrade imo, some people handle it fine w/ specialized ones like matlab/R

[balmy mural]

I've turned down a job because I had two offers and went with 2nd one. A friend has turned down a job because they offered him a lower salary than his current salary at a higher cost of living country. Lots of good reasons to turn down jobs. Mainly happens if the offer isn't competitive enough or if you have other more interesting oppertunities

My friend gave them a very clear minimum salary he would consider early on in the interviews. They still did multiple more rounds and then offered him an insultingly low salary 😂

[rain hatch]

upgrade?

so should i learn it side by side?

[icy pagoda]

yeah, better syntax and much more general

[rain hatch]

oh

i mean ik the basics but coding looks cool ngl i wanna learn it bcz im interested so ill just do it side by side

[dapper latch]

Guys, is it normal for one to forget how to program in say, python if one has not been consistent because I was experiencing this back then

[cedar portal]

Machine learning or data science

[meager sigil]

dont do coding for a week and you will forget basic syntsx

[white relic]

try #python-discussion

[safe kiln]

actually this is not true

unless you have lack of practice

[gritty plinth]

Have you landed any job with your knowledge in this field actually?

[dapper latch]

Actually u know what, instead of learning multiple programming languages I will just stick into python and extend to its frameorms such as sklearn, numpy etc

[peak halo]

those are foundational libraries for data science and AI, but be advised that jobs in that space virtually require a degree.

[gritty plinth]

why not Django instead?

[white relic]

instead of what?

[gritty plinth]

he said for extending his works on frameworks

[dense shard]

I have a general question: what can I do to start making money programming? And what can I do to work regularly in the future that isn't AI? I don't have a problem with AI, I just don't wanna work with it

Many of my friends and friends of my dad keep talking "AI is the future!!!!!" And I'm just nahhhh

[white relic]

Django is a web framework, it's in a different category than data science libs like numpy

[white relic]

for most people, a degree in CS is the path of least resistance and greatest opportunity.

[dense shard]

Pandas and pyxel would be considered in this group?

[dense shard]

Pawsome

[white relic]

there's a lot of fields besides AI that you can work in, but learning to use AI effectively will probably be a big discriminator for most knowledge workers for the rest of your career, so total avoidance isn't a strategy either

[white relic]

pandas is broadly applicable. Idk what pyxel is

[wary patrol]

@white relic hey im the person who talked about github the other day, would you like see it now? :0

[dense shard]

Yeah fr

[white relic]

I have a meeting rn but I might be able to come back.
You looking for a review of your portfolio?

[dense shard]

I don't quite remember how to spell the name or whatever but it's basically a python library in Excel

[wary patrol]

just my github

[white relic]

oh that, openpyxl iirc

[eager cliff]

Hi friends, I was going to post a job in the group for those who are confident in backend/frontend or AI-ML. But I couldn't find one. If you still have one here, please DM me with your portfolio.

[white relic]

@eager cliff please read the #rules and channel descriptions. This isn't a place to post or ask for jobs.

[dense shard]

oh yeah!

[broken knot]

I had two projects where I was fully responsible for the backend. Data was extracted from an .xlsx file and converted into a nicely structured .pdf file. I don't count other things like fixing something on WordPress. I also currently maintain a bot on Discord that has 14,000 servers, all by myself.

[gritty plinth]

ohh...ok can you break it down how this numpy actually works or run

[gritty plinth]

that's good actually put on your path i'm a beginner

[hearty island]

@white relic craziness. soc gen just reached out for an interview today

[fiery edge]

can I ask you a question? pleaseee

[hearty island]

so disorganized

[muted fog]

How important is it to have a CS or Software degree in the Netherlands to get a software developer job?

@balmy mural do you know?

I do?

How much experience though

Do I need an IT bachelor degree?

[zinc stone]

@muted fog Read this

[muted fog]

i want to know specifically for my country - the Netherlands.

[zinc stone]

I think that goes for any country. but maybe not

[left jacinth]

The English is a langage very hard, i am French and the French is a good langage and a very good country

Emmanuel Macron is a dictator, be careful

[analog sun]

Hello, please respect channel topics. This is the #career-advice discussion channel in the Python programming language server

[left jacinth]

A I am very désolé I no speak English

[muted fog]

is it worth getting a degree like this?

https://www.loi.nl/n-5775-hbo-bachelor-informatica-software-engineering-specialisatie-ai

I can only study online

I have an online marketing background

[peak halo]

You might consider a French Python user group: https://wiki.python.org/moin/LocalUserGroups#France

[left jacinth]

Yes thenkweu very much

[muted fog]

hmm

[peak halo]

that was in 2019. Jobs are generally less available now than they were at that time.

[muted fog]

so im screwed

[faint depot]

I worked for a supermarket called Waitrose. Got let go because it was a temp contract and reapplied 5 times after. Each time, got an interview and each time, getting rejected. I’ve submitted a complaint because I’ve not been given any feedback as to why. Honestly, if they dont provide a good enough excuse, I’ll see if theres grounds to accuse of discrimination. Fucking sick of this shit

[peak halo]

to be clear, you live in the Netherlands and do not have any degree or professional training, and you're looking to start a career in programming without a degree?

[muted fog]

i have a degree in commercial economics with 2 years of experience

[near ocean]

What do you have on your CV when applying?

[peak halo]

What country is this? They aren't necessarily required to give you a reason or feedback.

[near ocean]

My gf and sister both have advanced degrees and were rejected from entry level retail/hospitality jobs and im wondering if the degrees have anything to do with it

[faint depot]

Waitrose is a supermarket brand in the UK

[peak halo]

And you're employed in that field currently? Given the state of the progamming job market, I would see if you can move or change up your job responsibilities at your current job.

[jaunty steppe]

Overqualified people are often rejected because of fears of them leaving as soon as they find a job they are qualified for instead of staying for a longer time.

[near ocean]

But most of these gigs are temporary work in the first place so why the concern over turnover

[muted fog]

is the programming market that bad rn?

im looking to get employed in 3-4 years

[peak halo]

if you start a degree, the market might have improved by the time you finish it.

[muted fog]

does an online bachelor degree have any worth though

im doing "the odin project right" now, learning the basics of web development

[faint depot]

The role I apply to is a temporary role. I swear I feel it has to be fucking discrimination. I need a job to pay for uni and I cant get one. I had a job with ASDA as a warehouse assistant but they were a bunch of dickheads. Expected to do the jobs of 3-4 people and they barely helped. Still looking for a job. Got restaurant job but get paid £30 a day (£5 an hour); Im fucking 24

[near ocean]

Yes, maybe not as much as a more traditional in person degree but its still worth more than the next step down

[peak halo]

is that a degree from a university, or an online course/bootcamp?

[primal laurel]

"do no use CHATLGBT" is a reference? 🤨

[peak halo]

huh? I've never heard of that. hopefully it's not a disparaging joke about LGBT people.

[primal laurel]

it is not

it's a joke with chatgpt

[muted fog]

online course/bootcamp where you learn full sack development

[peak halo]

that's not an online degree.

[muted fog]

i mean the odin project

[jaunty steppe]

They mentioned LOI earlier which is a HBO level education

[muted fog]

this is an online bachelor degree

[peak halo]

an online bootcamp/certificate/course is not likely to increase your employment prospects.

[muted fog]

what about an online degree?

[peak halo]

what old man mar said.

[muted fog]

full accredited bachelor degree

[jaunty steppe]

There are bootcamps that will help you get a job afterwards.

[muted fog]

i see

[near ocean]

At least the Odin Project has its recommendations, the average bootcamp is much worse

[muted fog]

now im stressed im not gonna lie

[near ocean]

Whichever bootcamp you decide to do, just know that any guarantees regarding jobs are fake and its up to you to get a job, they wont do it for you even if thats what they advertise

[muted fog]

I eventually want to get into the AI/machine learning field

[peak halo]

AI/ML is the most degree-requiring domain in programming, so you should only plan to do that if you can go back to school for it.

[left jacinth]

What does it mean: "they/them" I don't understand

[near ocean]

It means you should ask in the offtopics and not the channel titled #career-advice

[gaunt rain]

guys, i got some certificates from some courses that i've done
is it worth to create a hyperlink to each of those mentions of those certificates? do i have to upload it to google drive so that the interviewer can see it?
some of those certificates are like course completion certificates for learning some languages/technology, and some were like the report of an internship i had attended
so, is it worth to create hyperlinks for that?

[deft herald]

No

Those certs probably aren't worth much tbh

[gaunt rain]

guys, what do u call that section that has some generic paragraph that highlights about u at the start?
some resume templates have it as "Profile", "Summary", and some have it as "Objective"
people usually say stuff like "looking for career leap ..." or smth like that

[white relic]

objective statement, usually

mine doesn't have one, but when I did, I didn't label it as anything. it was just a sentence below my name in smaller font

that's what I would recommend. putting a header on it is basically pure wasted space

[opaque niche]

Hey everyone, I am someone who is very much new to programming. I really wanted to get into it by learning Python. So yeah if anyone would like to guide me with anything i would love to hear them.

[craggy wave]

Not sure if you're from the Netherlands. The course you linked is for an accredited degree, meaning that it's recognised by the government (although the NVAO is the actual organisation/body HBO and university programs). In theory, it has as much value as an in-person HBO degree. In practice, it's up to the potential employer.

I think it will mostly be fine, though. I'm pretty sure we'd invite you for an interview with that degree (if the initial phone conversation went decent okay).

[muted fog]

Yes, im from the Netherlands. Would you also invite me if i have no relevant IT degree, but a portfolio with a few projects?

[craggy wave]

We mostly do require some kind of degree, but in part because I work for a IT service provider/consultancy company. Our clients typically ask for people with degrees, so degrees matter to us. A degree in a different field is typically fine, though.

[gaunt rain]

guys, do i need to put my github profile in my resume?
will there be any need for it?

[muted fog]

i have an associate degree in commercial economics

[craggy wave]

You can always try to apply, espcially if you have good projects in your portfolio. The worst that can happen is that they don't invite you for an interview.

[craggy wave]

I wouldn't say it's required or even expected. I do look at someone's GitHub Profile if they include it.

[gaunt rain]

is using logos in resume ok? or is it cringe?
like, i use the phone icon to denote my phone number instead of the "Phone: " label
and a letter envelope icon to denote my mail id, smth like that

so, is it worth it?

[peak halo]

I would call those symbols rather than logos. I don't think it will have an impact in either direction.

My resume had them because I like how they look.

[fervent grove]

i think they are some kind of "bounty hunters" which get certain provision if a contract was signed.

[echo seal]

uh looking for someone who has time to teach me pythong for free in dms

[fervent grove]

wrong chat buddy and in general most people wont do it for free, if you start a project and have trouble with certain methods feel free to visit the #❓｜how-to-get-help

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[peak halo]

for the python institute to get your money.

[smoky quest]

What was the relationship between these individuals and the roles you targeted?

[rapid void]

anyone good with using github and vercel

pls i need help as soon as possible if anyone is able to help me

[muted fog]

@craggy wave whats the best dutch site to check for IT job openings?

[fringe sphinx]

"I’ve reached out via email to a few individuals regarding job openings posted on LinkedIn": Who are you actually reaching out to? Random employees of companies? Or people who have advertised jobs?

[strange pumice]

Where can I find part time software engineering jobs

[peak halo]

The only people I know with part time software engineering jobs are also part time students.

Are you?

[strange pumice]

Well I’m a student since I’m enrolled in a program

But I also have a full time job

[peak halo]

If you get an internship next summer, you might be able to turn it into an ongoing thing. (My company sometimes does this)

[next plover]

and if you do it right you can have a crazy network even if you dont get a job

[strange pumice]

Does the Internship require me to work full time or pastime ?

[peak halo]

From what I can tell, internships are usually full-time over the summer

[strange pumice]

Yeah I can’t cause I have a full time job

My current job isn’t fully software engineering more of data engineering and cloud management

So need ti gain more experience on a part time job

If I go for full time internship that’s a demotion on my end

Entry level to intern 🥺

[peak halo]

@strange pumice It's pretty unlikely that anyone is going to hire you when you're spread so thin.

Is there a way you can diversify within your current job?

[strange pumice]

Yeah but I told my manager I like it. Which was somewhat a lie

But I’ve dug so deep. My team is spread thin and understaffed kinda if I leave they will have the burden of bringing someone else and doing knowledge transfer again which takes weeks or months

I really want to switch teams

[fringe sphinx]

on plus side, this experience will be very valuable later 🙂

[strange pumice]

Fair that’s what’s keeping me in. And the morality

[graceful viper]

How do I make money to see black screen

[peak halo]

What is black screen?

[graceful viper]

spam and eggs maybe ?

[peak halo]

are you trolling?

[craggy wave]

Most offers that I get are via LinkedIn. You can also search for postings on LinkedIn, but I've never done that myself. Some Python conferences also have job fairs.

[sharp falcon]

Hey

Anyone suggest me some good python tutorial

[wispy cave]

do i submit my resume here for it to be reviewed?

[wraith harbor]

Yes you can. Don't forget to anonymize any private information

[hearty island]

one page, jake's resume. https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs

[hearty island]

fyi this is the resume template i used

[leaden vigil]

Guys, is a Bachelor’s in CS along with skills enough to get a good job in Germany or Australia, or should I go for a B.Tech in CS instead?

[peak halo]

I don't have any experience with hiring decisions in Germany or Australia. But it looks like BTech degrees are primarily offered in South Asia, and that a BSc is more similar to the degrees that people in Germany and Australia get.

[leaden vigil]

I should work on my skills then, right?

[peak halo]

you should always work on your skills. I'm not sure how that's related to your question about BSc vs BTech

[leaden vigil]

People say B tech students get more placements because they’re taught engineering with cs theory while bsc is just cs theory

And some people say that you just need a bachelors with companies desired skills

It’s hella confusing

[peak halo]

having the right skills is always the most important part. the degree is mostly there to get your foot in the door.
my guess is that the difference between BSc and BTech is marginal. Is one significantly easier to get into than the other?

[leaden vigil]

Yea bsc is easier than b tech because in South Asia people are obsessed with engineering so it’s a very crowded group to get into but it doesn’t really matter because my goal is a google or a Microsoft job in Germany or Australia.

[fringe sphinx]

while I'm in US and can't directly relate: everyone's goal is a google or microsoft job (more or less) in a strong economy country. And, the starting point is a degree. What you do during that degree is also important: what skills, connections/network, and experience you gain. It's not just "get a degree, then get a job"

[fringe sphinx]

Your highly sus email was deleted.

[modern bough]

TSMC Laughing in the corner

[rancid apex]

Hey buddy

[brazen apex]

So there appears to be a big difference between a dev and software/data engi right?

[harsh breach]

From what I understand, devs create and build programs, applications, etc. While data scientists/engineers parse information and put it in a readable format.
That said, I am neither of these things, so maybe someone else can give better context.

[peak halo]

Data scientists and data engineers are separate things, inasfaras those terms mean anything in practice

A "data engineer" is supposedly someone who's responsible for how data is stored and accessed for an organization

Especially if that organization wants to use that data for ML

[peak halo]

"software developer" and "software engineer" have basically no distinction.

[brazen apex]

Interesting I always though software engi gets paid a lot more

[civic lake]

I have completed my 4 years computer science engineering without learning anything
I wasted a lot of time. Is it too late for me to start learning python now
I can't afford all those expensive courses too 😢

[brazen apex]

Wait if you did 4 years surely you did python courses?

[peak halo]

Well, no. It's not required that you learn any specific language to get a cs degree

[peak halo]

It's never too late to learn.
Did you do any internships or participate in extra curriculars or anything?

[brazen apex]

Isn't ML/AI all the rage right now is that not part of the program?

[peak halo]

It is, though AI is a subdomain of CS, and there's no requirement that a CS degree cover it

[summer roost]

Universities rarely teach programming languages, in my experience. You're likely to get taught one language, in your first year of university, and after that they'll expect you to be able to pick up other languages as you go. Most of my classes gave a list of 2 or 3 languages that were acceptable to turn in assignments in.

[civic lake]

all I did was hosting and organizing collage fests and tech fests
i have little knowledge in python and that's it

[brazen apex]

Interesting, I never knew that

[civic lake]

python was not even in my syllabus
i realized too late that my syllabus was way outdated

[brazen apex]

If you did hosting and organizing those are all good skills

[civic lake]

yeah i did those a lot
I was kind of active in those activities
but now after completion of collage I am regretting that I should have learned some skill too
( Sorry for my bad english)

[fluid heron]

Hi

[peak halo]

Not containing python doesn't make the syllabus outdated

[civic lake]

trust me it's not only about python
just check JNTUH R18 syllabus
Indian universities are famous for there out dated syllabus and all they expect from students is to maintain there attendance
off course not all unis but most of them does this

[lilac yoke]

Learning Python isn’t going to get you a job, but doing some projects relevant to where you want to work will

@peak halo I feel like I need a bot command for this advice

[civic lake]

i at least want to start some where idk know where to start
but i like building projects

[peak halo]

You can make a self-bot command ||/s selfbotting is bannable||

[lilac yoke]

You’ll want to research specific job titles you’d like to do at specific companies, and find one that you really like. (Don’t just aim to be a “software engineer”, aim to be a software engineer really good at XYZ because that’s what company C hires)

From there, it should be easy to think of a project. For example, if you’d really like to work at Google on the Google Docs team, think about making something a lot like Google Docs, showing you understand the system design

[civic lake]

I understand thank you

[dusky flume]

hey so I know Python. Like I think I can do OOP well so

now I want to shift to pandas and Numpy libraries working. How can I master these? Like this whole thing looks complex.

[potent canyon]

i want to do a breakthrough for my college application but I don't know what can i do. Anyone down to study a slim mould for computational biology, a project i wanted to do for a long time

[cobalt abyss]

im prob gonna work at a gasstation bro

[forest root]

Udemy has courses available for extremely cheap during offers, which are pretty common

Around 6-7 dollars, but idk the price in your country

[forest root]

Hey! It seems interesting, but you would need someone with experience riggr

Right*? I am a newbie in python

[civic lake]

yeah it's kind of cheep too i will try those thank you bro

[forest root]

No

[forest root]

Np** lol

[civic lake]

😂

[forest root]

😂

[potent canyon]

i see. ye you are correct, i need someone who knows how to train data set and help me extrapolate the existing dataset for more generation and simulation

[hearty island]

so sad lowk tho

[near ocean]

its not sad, get that bag 💸

[hearty island]

real, the new place will be much better

[blazing wave]

Guys am 16 years old but am not sure wat to study can anyone help me

[fringe sphinx]

Can you be give us more context/information? That's pretty open ended

[blazing wave]

I want something related to coding like game dev

[near ocean]

Given that your nickname before you changed it was GameDev, i guess you want to study game dev and related software development

[wispy robin]

hey can anyone guide me in machine learning

[gusty thicket]

Lua

[hearty island]

@white relic , soc gen fell through, sixth round they said i didn't have experience for an auditor role and i should apply for an analyst role in canada 🗿

[white relic]

Wow. After 6 rounds it's a good thing you didn't assume you had it

[hearty island]

never, you always have to hedge

[white relic]

I mean I thought you probably would

6 rounds and then to say insufficient experience is absurd

[hearty island]

he said he was amazed i made it to this round. bro was as confused as i was

[hearty island]

imagine going from "we're interested in you for 2 roles" to "go apply for an analyst role in canada"

[lilac yoke]

I hope HR and recruiters get replaced by AI

[hearty island]

we are all cooked if that happens brother (imo)

tbf it's already happening anyways

[lilac yoke]

Honestly I trust the machine more than the recruiter with 5000 unread emails

I know people who have had to find them in person to get them to respond to an email, and then later got the job

[hearty island]

soc gen switched recruitment coordinators on me and then switched back. it was all very confusing.

[lilac yoke]

I refuse to believe their job can be that complicated

[hearty island]

it's not

[hearty island]

my friend is a recruiter and he's like workday/greenhouse/everything just does it for us. we just click a few buttons

[lilac yoke]

Referrals are the only way I’ve ever gotten anything back

And not the LinkedIn DM and ask for a referral, actually knowing someone and knowing they will write a good letter to HR

[forest root]

👍

[hearty island]

meh, i got all my 6 internships and so far 2 full time jobs just by applying

[forest root]

Hey I'll hit you up in dms, we can help track each other's progress

[hearty island]

but i will say i think you're right

[lilac yoke]

Well, I go to an un-noteworthy state university so I could be biased. Several people at my internship go to MIT and Illinois who didn’t need referrals either

[hearty island]

i went to a nobody school 🗿

just the luck of the draw for me

[dim pelican]

Finally got a job as a SWE. Havent touched python much since then. This is jank lol. In all serious, Im very glad i learned the basics in python because it made it easier to translate to React and I will eventually get into the backend which is python.

[near ocean]

A win is a win, good job

[wanton birch]

Congratulations 🥂

[dim pelican]

My rate of progress has skyrocketed now that i have a dedicated project with clear goals. Even in the 1.5-2 months ive been on the team, the other guy whos been doing this for over a decade has complimented me on my progression, willingness and ability yo learn and adapt. Thats been great with keeping imposter syndrome at bay.

[wanton birch]

What kind of projects and job?

[near ocean]

it is definitely much much easier and faster to learn on the job than alone self studying

[fringe sphinx]

To keep progressing, look for meetups and conferences. I work with someone who is very expert at react, and part of it is learning what's happening in the industry.

No difference than watching PyCon type videos to stay current ont he world of

[wanton birch]

Conferences are so expensive!

[fringe sphinx]

Yt is free 🙂

[wanton birch]

Oh! I thought you meant to go meet people and socialise /network

[near ocean]

most places will offer you a learning and development fund you could use to attend a couple conferences

[wanton birch]

I assumed as much when I saw them charging thousands for conferences

[fringe sphinx]

That's nice too, meetups are great... I go to a few (occasionally) and always learn something.

[dim pelican]

Were currently making a produciton data logger. We had one in excel but it broke last year. And remaking on online excel like googlesheets or something.

[wanton birch]

But honestly, I wish I could meet up with software folks in person. I just want software people in my life. I don’t even have people in my life who could install a software on their windows Pc in my life 😔

[fringe sphinx]

Does your app run in cloud? We log mostly to s3

[wanton birch]

Wait, you do that using Python?

[dim pelican]

@wanton birch I have free meetups i go to around me. They are free, offer food and a great networking oppertunity. And the frontend is React, the database stuff is python. Ive been mostly doing the frontend stuff since data display is the most important thing here. Gotta make the charts nice and readable lol. But the first version i made to kinda show "Hey i know what im doing somewhat and the people that made the tool prior are no longer with the company" and that was all in python using sqlite and tkinter.

When i say data logger, its all production data, so user input.

@fringe sphinx Were currently working on that. Waiting to get provisions assigned since were a brand new department and my employer, which is a chemical company, hasn't had to do anything like this before.

[fringe sphinx]

Oh that's fun, building a tech team in a non tech company is a great opportunity to lead... not just be a cog

(It can also be frustrating)

[dim pelican]

I def have a lot to learn in the world of online web apps, but what I have learned in the last 2 months has prompted me to completely remake my personal project since i see I would gain a lot of tech debt if i continued on the path i was going (since being asked to make it online accessible and not a local webapp would be impossible to avoid lol)

[wanton birch]

That sounds interesting indeed! I’ve had to ditch Python stuff to focus on C C++ and assembly

[dim pelican]

Keeping the skills sharp with my personal projects lol. Currently refactoring one with all my newfound knowledge in mind.

[wanton birch]

I honestly find web stuff very intimidating as there’s always an ever changing and evolving landscape of frameworks!

[wanton birch]

What was your interview process like if you don’t mind sharing?

[dim pelican]

Unfortunately I wont be able to help there 😅 I had 2 interviews. The first one was basically reviewing the code I already had for this project and the other one was the director just asking about me as a person and barely anything the job itself. They had alreadyb decided they wanted to hire me before the job was even posted (a benefit of an internal hire i guess).

[pastel frigate]

hey can you all help in my game

i want developers in my discord server

like 5 devs

[dim pelican]

This channel isnt a place to ask or offer jobs, just general career discussion.

[pastel frigate]

i just did want get devs

[peak halo]

@pastel frigate you can't hire people or recruit for closed-source projects here

[pastel frigate]

okey but i cant anymore do because this be a lot harder and i want do somthing like best devs in my discord

[peak halo]

unless you want to learn how to do what you're trying to do, it sounds like you'll need to look elsewhere (not in this server) for help.

[pastel frigate]

okey

but yeah my gamre is new

like FortBrawl 2D

[wanton birch]

That sounds cool. What sort of a position is it, if you are okay with sharing?

[dim pelican]

Technically a Junior Software Engineer. Since its a team of 2, we are taking on the role of dev ops, frontend, backend, db admin, cloud artitect, etc. though.

[lilac yoke]

you were logging real time data to excel?

[versed dune]

Dam

[dim pelican]

I... technically I wasn't. I didnt make that tool lol, but was forced to use it.

[lilac yoke]

that’s going to be a funny story to tell some day

[dim pelican]

No funny, but a weird coincidence. Every time i learned something that would help me with this job, someone on the old team died. And not like i learned something in October and they died in December, like the same week that something clicked for me, i got news they died. So thats.. thats been a weird burden on me.

[fringe sphinx]

My god man, stop learning things.

[dim pelican]

Thats what my wife said lol.

Luckily, i was already on the job when i had to learn react 😬

[dark lagoon]

is there like a mod where i can auto complete code similar to lua, for example i can only type pri than press "TAB" for it to auto complete to print

[dim pelican]

I have pycharm and it does it. But i dont remember if it was a feature in the free or just the pro version (which is what i have)

[limber tulip]

Why bro??

[near ocean]

Alternatively, start tactically learning business and management things and carve yourself a nice path to the top

[limber tulip]

I understand python is much more demanded than c or cpp

[dim pelican]

It depends on the project. Python is a slow language and that speed can make a difference.

[limber tulip]

But generally a bit less payed because of its amount of profs

[high coral]

here are my credentials -- i am trying to have a career change to become a ML Engineer:

• undergrad degree in Computer Science and Math
• Masters degree in Electrical and Computer Engineering with a concentration in embedded ML
• 3.5 years of professional experience as an embedded SWE using mainly C# and some C++ (this is what i currently do for work, but there is not much ML implementation at work, most of the ML stuff i've done have been school related or personal projects)

please look at my experience as a recruiter / manager at a company would. would you give me an interview if i applied to your company as a ML Engineer?

[dim pelican]

Can speak on that, im not a conventional hire lol. I have zero background outside of self taught and personal projects. Unless you want to count my CompTIA ITF+ cert that i winged just to have something under my belt.

[fringe sphinx]

This is the tough part of planning a career: you never know what opportunities you'll get.

[fringe sphinx]

Do you have a resume? Can you share an anonymized form?

[wheat token]

someone please refer me to a internship🙏

[fast agate]

should not be a problem, apply for entry level jobs and emphasise education on your CV and anything mildly related to data or datascience

[high coral]

i do, but i’d rather not share it, even if anonymized. my resume is is basically what i listed above, just in more detail. the software i write at work is very close to the hardware (yesterday i wrote code to read specific registers on an FPGA through a UART). My masters, even though it’s in EE and CE, has a concentration in ML and ML implemented in robotics. In my masters, I took an AI for robotics course, Neural Network course, classical AI course, Math for AI course, and an embedded AI course

i guess you could say i have a solid foundation in EE, Software development and SWE’ing principles, and ML. but i fear the lack of professional ML expierence will hinder me as i’m sure my competition has more experience than me

[wanton birch]

That should be one of the big important factors everyone should be made aware of

[wanton birch]

High performance computing, kernel, bare metal OS, etc all benefit from C/C++ and some assembly

[smoky quest]

Yes, and that's also why a degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation over specific languages.
They give you the foundations and teach you how to learn so you can be ready for any and all opportunities you are willing to seize.

Languages are just tools, that's the easy part. What matters is what you can do with them

[stiff briar]

Cs degree vs math degree vs Cs and math degree vs physics degree

[faint depot]

Look at each degree and see if they are more on theoretical side or the practical side. For e.g. my university does a maths degree where it teaches more on the application of mathematics rather than the raw theory.

[stiff briar]

Their is also theoretical physics applied physics applied math pure math pure math and Cs and Cs only

[vapid jay]

oh hm

how was ur high school like? in terms of what u liked as a academic subject

[open ivy]

Knowing how to flex sounds like an important skill.

In biology, which is the other field I studied, the thing to flex was hours worked.

There is only one place in tech where large amounts of manual labor is commonly flexed: sending out a ton of job applications. For everything else, computer scientists generally flex how their code is "better" in some way rather than sheer effort.

I wish I knew the best way to do this, to show off without people knowing I am showing off. I am just so bad at selling myself.

[faint depot]

If you have a careers advisor at your school, speak to them. Also, think to yourself, what do you want to learn in university? Do you want to learn how to apply the theory or do you want to just learn the theory (if you get what I mean)? Im from the UK so I have no idea how degrees are taught in your country

[red sun]

MUCH more

[summer roost]

Depends a lot on the project. No one is doing data science in C, and no one is designing new database engines in Python

[unreal comet]

Hi, I'm new here (but not to Python). I changed jobs due to life stuff six months ago but can't get any interviews for Python jobs even though that's what I did for 5+ years. Are we allowed to post (anonymized) resumes here to get feedback about what we're doing wrong?

[high coral]

i've seen people drop resumes here for feedback, so you can probably do the same

[peak halo]

Challenge accepted.

[unreal comet]

Is the problem my resume?

[open ivy]

When you are networking and other people ask for your resume, do you feel a negative vibe from them once they see it?

[unreal comet]

Well they don't ask to see my resume, sometimes they ask to link with me on LinkedIn. What are you trying to tell me? 😅

@open ivy sorry I'm replying to you in case that wasn't clear.

[unreal comet]

Although I haven't felt any negative vibes one way or the other. Actually I gave a talk at the local Python group a few months ago and it was very well received.

[open ivy]

@unreal comet Feedback from human interactions is important for any of these questions about how good something looks to a human/

Honestly I do not have much time for applying the traditional way because of all the networking and personal projects I can do, no limit to those.

[unreal comet]

I struggle to network, since my last job was remote from the location I'm in for the last few years I was working there, and when I worked there in person (out of state) it was during the pandemic and nobody was going into the office for several years. I attend local groups for Python & AI/ML when they happen and have gotten a few pointers.

[limber tulip]

Yeah obviously

But c or cpp is better payed

[fringe sphinx]

Your industry experience could be expanded better to make it clear that you're a capable developer who can immediately contribute

[fringe sphinx]

A PhD in physics -can- make people wonder if you're really looking for a SWE job or whether you will want the job

So showing more practical 'I am a developer' stuff can address that

[unreal comet]

Okay thanks. So what sort of things would be good to put there? I wrote a lot of helper function libraries and little helper apps (that automated tedious stuff) that my colleagues liked. Is that a good thing? What specifics?

[unreal comet]

I worry about that sometimes. Lately when there's a cover letter option I put links and brief descriptions of four code samples (two python, two C++) to really emphasize that I can program.

[fringe sphinx]

I'm a bit tired right now and not really able to give this serious thought but generally; start with writing a few more bullets and then take a step back and see what story it tells

[fringe sphinx]

What was your dissertation topic? Depending, that might also make you sound more technical than abstract 'PhD'

[unreal comet]

It was pure pen-and-paper math, but I did work on a black hole simulation in C++ that I mention. I also mention the CPU simulator to signal that I actually did take CS classes.

It was a sub-sub-sub-field in gravitational physics.

[fringe sphinx]

All phds are sub sub sub fields 🙂

[unreal comet]

When I say "a theory in modified gravity" nobody outside of gravitational physics knows what that actually means so I stopped trying to explain it unless they actually seem interested.

[summer roost]

Most jobs require you to know and use multiple languages. Personally, I use both C++ and Python most every week

Choosing a programming language is a decision that's made per project, not per company or per team. Some languages are better for getting certain types of work done, others are better at different things

[lilac yoke]

Experience first. Then projects. Then education. Then skills.

Also, a “general” resume == low ATS score for anything you apply to. You need to specifically tailor the resume to each job posting

Pretty much all of your misc stuff, and things like that “data science” and mathematics, scholarships, as well as mentioning you know git, bash, windows, MIPS (do you really know MIPS so well it’s on your resume, and are you applying to MIPs jobs??) can be removed to make room for more experience and projects.

[sturdy widget]

I'm entering my Junior year in College currently for Finance. However I always have known I would need some niche of some form, took awhile to get the mental picture but I've tampered in programming for plenty of time when I was younger, though I'm wanting to target my usage of Python. Would anyone have any reccoemndatipna for pursuing full stack pathways, as my purpose for learning Python(primarily), alongside js etc... would be solely for developing programs alongside UIs for programs solving specific problems in the financial/banking industry. My timeframe would be from two to three years to get as fluent as possible in writing these programs, with obvious potential exceptions that take some time to solve. Where would I be able to enter a reliable bootcamp or self-teachh that would be efficient with daily learning. Would appreciate someone who's taken a similar approach who could assist.

[sturdy widget]

So do you believe A.I has entirely removed the necessity to learn programming, and am I able to allow it to fully create programs for personal needs. In addition do you think there would still be a market for freelance programs with finance targeting, or do you believe that will entirely be gone?

My goal is for freelance, not directly getting a position as a Fintech developer

When you enter a business, that business more than likely has a system that allows any form of transacting or saving data inside of it. Someone will need to ensure it's updated and running. Large systems cost a lot, smaller business needs systems to get running.

You are most likely fifteen I'm laughing

If you can help me please let me know, otherwise stop yapping and get off the internet

Put a couple years into something you might get somewhere that needs you to be up at 2am, I obviously am not there yet either

[sacred briar]

Hey guys is there any channel for python begginers ?

[tropic nebula]

hey everyone, I am looking for a referral or even some advice as a intern at google, I have tried dming a lot of people but none replied, what should I do?
my resume and everything is great, if anyone knows what should I do, pls let me do, I want this really bad, If anyone can help me pls let me know

[white relic]

!clban 801154455075684372

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @winged sleet permanently.

[gusty thicket]

Dem y ban him if u dont mind?[just cusious and bored]

[white relic]

For what they posted before I deleted it.

[gusty thicket]

So if u dont mind wat do u do? Like work

[regal axle]

You can stick around #python-discussion
Generally all channels are welcoming of beginners. As long as you are in the right topic space. But you can stick with the channel I sent

[regal axle]

(Idk what convo you had with deleted messages. But anyways…)

No, AI has not entirely replaced anything. And it won’t. It will replace specific things.
But there is still high demand for precise and high trust work to get done. In finance, you need to have an extra level of confidence. And AI can’t give you that. Or in a more nihilistic view; AI is a horrible scapegoat. And so contract/freelancing work will be just fine.
Keep in mind though; freelancing is tough to enter. Once properly established, it’s not that hard to find work. But getting there is tough. Good luck

[sacred briar]

Alright thank you🫡

[hearty island]

background check

[summer roost]

Please delete this. Please see rules 6 and 9: we don't allow advertising development services (or any other jobs) here

[vapid jay]

Im sorry

[summer roost]

No worries

[sturdy widget]

Fiverr 👌🏽

[queen ivy]

hi, where can I write about the created open source project?

[golden plank]

dev.to

many more are there but you can use this

[queen ivy]

I meant is it possible to write about him here, on this discord server

[summer roost]

No, but you could consider the Python subreddit for this

[wicked kite]

Decided to be a cs major now halfway through thinking I should’ve done comp e instead 😭

[peak halo]

why?

[lone rock]

hey i dont want to do a job is there any other way to make money using python. except freelancing and job

[peak halo]

I can't think of any. If there are others, they're exceptionally unlikely to actually work.

[lone rock]

hmmmmmmmmmm thanks greenman

[peak halo]

Yw 💚

[lone rock]

hehe hey stelercus how to get a job before 2025 end if you are still doing degree (not completed) in 2nd yr

[peak halo]

If you're still working on your degree, the only jobs you should expect to be able to get are internships.

[lone rock]

hmmm ok but i heard some people land up jobs even without going to school

[peak halo]

They're very rare and have special circumstances.

[lone rock]

ooo nice got it

[wise jackal]

But you can do it

[lone rock]

how @wise jackal ?

[wise jackal]

If you’ve been coding for years

Experience is better than a degree🏃

[lone rock]

ooo nice

[peak halo]

You need connections for that to work.

[lone rock]

do you know how to make coding ecstatic and blissful so we can get lot of experience ?

[wise jackal]

Yes

[wise jackal]

No such thing

[lone rock]

hmm

[wise jackal]

I code for work, code for fun. I still find it boring, it’s not always sunshine and rainbows

[lone rock]

right but have to be done great P all the best

[wise jackal]

Yeah buddy you’re gonna find it boring regardless

It’s normal, like playing video games. How you get bored of a video game, just move on and come back to it

[lone rock]

oh yes right nice example like pokemon black and white and xy

[wise jackal]

Yeah buddy

[last coral]

I'm trying to find good templates to make my CV, I used resume.io to create a good one but requires payment after trial period and now I need to update my CV. Any ideas? (Ping me please)

[timber shore]

Hi there, wanted to ask whether if it's allowed to ask some questions regarding a market research I'm doing for a project?

[icy pagoda]

check out overleaf for templates. jake's resume is often recommended by people

[somber summit]

any tips learning html and css?

[barren kettle]

Be Consistense

[somber summit]

im trying

Like im just trying to find sources for my knowledge

[barren kettle]

Find it on yt ig

well i am not professional too but i study consistensely it help alot

[shrewd pollen]

look for key concepts first: pretty much element positioning. its overall a big xml file

[sour fox]

hi im somewhat new to python i wana give a tip if. you are on a mac make some simple files on ur user folder like a file for mkaing other files or extracting video files of a vr headset

[wispy robin]

thanks

[vapid jay]

What projects are good for quant?

[brave summit]

Have dApp developer?

[uncut ether]

Howdy! I am new here ans new to learning Python. I am taking the CodeAcedmy course on python currently. I am wanting to get a remote job using python or other. After I finish the course, what should I do next, should I search for a remote job or should I do something else? My end game is to be remote in 2-5 years so that I can leave my current job. Thank you! Also if I broke the rules by mistake then please forgive me😁

[tall needle]

hellow new here

[last coral]

Thank you!

[lament crown]

hello im new is python a good way to learn how to code games and macros ?

[quartz helm]

Yoo

Anyone

[peak halo]

Hello, it's best to just post your whole message/question, and people will respond to it when they visit the channel.

[thorn elk]

I'm 6 days into python myself I'll suggest you to watch yt tuts and then take irl projects from chat gpt

[peak halo]

The job market is pretty competitive right now, so it is unfortunately very unlikely that you will be successful if all you've done is self-study on codecademy. Do you have the option to get formal training at a university?

[lament crown]

ok

[wraith harbor]

Try Odin Project

[open ivy]

Computer science is one of the largest gaps between skills getting a job and skills on the job.

In most fields, such as biology, people flex how hard they work and six days a week of hours of tedious tasks are a badge of honor. But tech is front-and-center about automation and thus we all get good at doing and flexing cleaver shortcuts. It is hard work but not super repetitive work.

But getting a job is where you see many people in tech flexing how many times they sent a job application out. It's rare that I hear all the clever tricks they did to escape a manual labor loop.

Another thing is that getting a job is social selling but computer tech work is very much about factual communication, human to human information transfer instead of emotion induction.

These two things both make finding a job and keeping a job miles different.

[near rapids]

If AI why try Python/software Engineering

AI = Automation of Software Engineers

If AI:
else: why try 😔

quit()

[peak halo]

you pretty much have to already be a developer to be able to use code-generation LLMs effectively.

[near rapids]

That’s actually true I’ve found that having fundamental knowledge of system architecture is what truly allows devs to build next level applications

If I’m not mistaken 🤔

I’m borderline begginer/intermediate so I’m running some tests to see if I should continue or learn something else. However this is where my heart lies.

I just hope I’m not doomed by the time I finally prestige

[fringe sphinx]

I'd generally say: breadth of knowledge is most important for new devs. Early specialization considered harmful

[pine sleet]

it might just be the circles you're in. i personally don't see many people flexing how many apps they send out

[near rapids]

What would you recommend. And would you say I’m doomed if it takes me another year or two to reach advanced level.

[open ivy]

Reddit? Posts like this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/1ehwjyj/hundreds_of_applications_and_not_even_a_single/

"As your first job you need to be applying to 1000+ jobs" "should be to power through this, get some experience"

I see a lot of stuff like this.

[pine sleet]

that subreddit is incredibly biased

its not a good source for trends

[open ivy]

Makes sense. I definitly think that networking is first and foremost for me since my app itself is not that good (in terms of particular expirences). Networking allows me to demonstrate passion and skills better.

Applying to jobs would make more sense if they had particular keywords that were in high demand.

[pine sleet]

i mean sure but you should also have the skills and the application to back it up

[open ivy]

That is a good point. So how can I get these skills without industry experience? I can do complex enough personal projects.

Unfortunately, sending out applications and ATS systems generally don't detect these skills that well. But networking, given the more flexible nature of human-human interactions, does let these projects get a fair chance.

[near rapids]

Do I not matter

[fringe sphinx]

What do you mean? My learning strategy is: find a topic I know nothing about, learn a bit, repeat.

[faint depot]

In all honesty, do the best you fucking can. The more you worry now, the less stuff you get done. You do not know the future so just learn as much as you can now. If you want to go down a specific route, go for it but make sure youre also learning other things on the side to increase your breadth of learning. Atm Im learning AI/ML in preparation for my university course. At the meantime, Ill learn hardware programming and tools that help in my programmign development (Git, Github, Docker etc). Admittedly, its going slow because I dont know wtf I want to do in the future and Im looking for alternative options (apprenticeships) to uni as Im sick of it. Regardless, Ill carry on programming as its interesting and a highly important skill that everyone should learn

[fringe sphinx]

You don't need to be "advanced level", wahtever that is. You just need to be employable. And perhaps a bit lucky.

[vapid jay]

How to get into quant ? Any projects i should build?

[fringe sphinx]

Well said.

[faint depot]

Its something Ive learnt over the past two years since dropping out of uni (then returning back). Ive wasted a lot of time just because I just dont know what to do but, Im trying my best and trying to do shit with my life. Currently, trying to do a more advanced Ml project involving precious metal prices. Ill use all the knowledge ive learnt about ML and implementing version control for the first time. Whether its good or bad, doesnt matter. Just want to showcase how I apply the theory into practice

[near ocean]

It's crazy how people are taking themselves out of the game, don't even need capable AI yet

[faint depot]

I definitely feel like cybersecurity is going to be quite a lucrative career in the future with all these AI developed apps and websites

[white relic]

it's like the job equivalent of futures trading

... although now I say it, I guess all investment in pre-workforce education is futures trading in a way

I will pay you $30,000 per year for proof of delivery of one (1) education, four years from today

[lofty niche]

Guys , Please save me i am going insano mode, I am trying to select a tech stack for my APP + actual ai implementation (no ready made api bs) , My aim is to actually go insane and touch as many super fast market hot languages/frameworks i can in my project. I wanna do UI in react thats only fixed ! But for backend i wanna know if i should go either of (FLASK/DJANGO) or Build everything in FASTAPI ... before you ask , my backend functionality will revovle around small scale erp(attendance and usermanagement) and a model to do mark attendance based on activity & participation.
I know at this point developing in ANYTHING can get my things done but i wanna be insane and aim for maximum performance and flexibility and perfection :p

TLDR ;
What is better to build backend (with some auth and 10-20 api and one AI/ML model based API) , FLASK/DJANGO or fast api ? aiming for optimization , security.

[fringe sphinx]

Try #python-discussion

[vapid jay]

Is there a place where i can show my repo?

[sour tartan]

@surreal yoke which mastodon post?

[surreal yoke]

https://twit.social/@brass75/114824856467977327

Dan (he/him) :twit: (@[e-mail])

Coding interviews should be replaced with code review interviews. You'll learn a lot more about the candidate than by asking them to regurgitate algorithms that they haven't seen in years.

Edited to add that I wrote a blog post expanding on this.

brassnet.biz/blog/live-coding-…

TWiT.social · Jul 9, 2025, 7:11 PM

[sour tartan]

cool, thanks

[surreal yoke]

I don't even remember what inspired it. Probably someone in my feed complaining (rightfully so!) about having to implement a bubble sort on a whiteboard.

[long solar]

How do you prepare for an interview

[peak halo]

Think of questions they might ask you about things that you said in your resume. Practice answering them clearly and confidently.

[surreal yoke]

Think of examples of things you've done and contributed. Concrete examples. Preferably with metrics.

Most important, a good night's sleep.

https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/interviewing/how-to-use-the-star-interview-response-technique is considered good.

[near rapids]

@faint depot @fringe sphinx thanks guys

[stark canyon]

I don't agree with the premises of the article. It's not arguing against live coding interviews, it's arguing against whiteboard DSA challenges in interviews. I will agree that live coding interviews put an unnatural strain on the developer, though. However, a candidate who is allowed to bring their own laptop to solve a semi-realistic problem in the way they naturally would in a work setting does seem to have some value to me.

[summer roost]

laptops are a luxury item, so that's biased towards wealthier candidates

[stark canyon]

Sure, but where I'm from I've never come across a situation where that's an issue. If there was an issue I'm sure we'd try to solve it somehow. But in the scenario where they don't have a computer, how would they be applying for a job in software?

[summer roost]

On a phone, or on a desktop, or on a computer at a library, or on a friend's computer, or...

[stark canyon]

I guess what I meant to say is "how come they are applying for a job in software".

[icy pagoda]

you can still provide them with a fully functional environment tbh, if they don't own a laptop themselves

[stark canyon]

Yes, although then it's not going to be their usual environment, which is one of the points of the article.

I'm just kinda skeptical that picking a homeless person off the street is going to be a reasonable hiring practice. (Hyperbole, but you get the point I take it.) I would expect someone with the requisite skills to have a computer on which to hone those skills.

[icy pagoda]

fair, ask them to upload their configs so they can get their usual environment running quickly or smth maybe? either way, that can be solvable imo

if they do not have a preferred environment, it doesn't make a difference anyways

[stark canyon]

That's also a fair point.

[summer roost]

I don't understand the premise of the question. What does one have to do with the other?

[stark canyon]

What scenario are you drawing up, where a candidate somehow has enough experience and understanding of computer programming to succeed in a software development job, yet they don't have a computer? Where did they learn those skills?

[summer roost]

a) you said "laptop", not "computer". Desktops are far cheaper than laptops.
b) most developers work on company issued devices, not personal devices, so even currently employed software developers aren't guaranteed to have a machine set up for developing on
c) people aren't born homeless

[stark canyon]

Again, I've never come across this issue. Maybe it's a regional difference or something.

[summer roost]

Your incredulity at the idea that there might be qualified candidates who don't have a computer that they can bring with them to an interview and code comfortably on is exactly the sort of bias that I'm warning you that interviewing method has.

[icy pagoda]

just provide them with a computer in the case this happens, it's not uncommon here

setting up one time environments and allow some time so the developer can set up their preferred environment

[summer roost]

It's still weighted against them. The proposal was that this is a more informative way to interview because you get to see how they work on a machine that's set up the way they like. Once loaner machines are involved, that's no longer true. To give a level playing field you'd need to give loaners to every candidate, and refuse to let them use personal devices that were configured in advance

(which is a much better idea, since it does give a level playing field)

[stark canyon]

Honestly, if I came across a candidate who seemed qualified but said they can't bring their computer because of whatever reasonable reason, I would try to accommodate them. But I would be skeptical that someone who doesn't would be qualified in the first place. Not because it's impossible, but because I find it hard to imagine where they would have had the opportunity to practice enough to build those qualifications. Provide me a reasonable explanation and I'd be more than happy to entertain the notion. But in practice this is not something I've seen.

Yes, maybe there is a bias, but my job as a software hiring person is not to evaluate all the possible people who could possibly work in the position. My job is to find a person to fill the role, and heuristics will make that easier. So if someone sends me a hand-written resumé because their home burned down in a fire 3 months ago just after they were fired from a job they'd been working for several years then yeah, I'd probably discard it just because the way the application was done seemed like a red flag. Maybe unjustly so, but that's kinda the world we live in.

I don't disagree that the method in the article has merit. I disagree with the premises of the interview process it's arguing against.

[summer roost]

But I would be skeptical that someone who doesn't would be qualified in the first place.

I don't understand how you could possibly not see the problem with that attitude. People become homeless because they can't afford their rent or mortgage, not because they never learned to code. It's utterly baffling to me that you would assume someone is less qualified because they are poor, and that you think it's acceptable to make them jump through an extra hoop that other candidates don't need to jump through by justifying their poverty to you.

For what it's worth, I expect it's quite a lot more common than you think for people to not have laptops configured for coding. I don't, and I'm well paid and nowhere near homeless. I'd need to borrow a laptop from someone for the sort of interview you're proposing

[royal meadow]

I get your role in your job and it's how it should be because there is no other way. If we switch the reasons for hiring and one tells you a very bad story of their past, you might think there are millions of others who got a similar or way worse situation. So ultimately, the best solution to hire a person is if you focus on just one point.

[stark canyon]

They would have to present themselves as a candidate who would be a likely good fit for the position. I don't think sending a message explaining why you can't bring a laptop as requested to an interview is that much of an extra hoop to jump through.

[summer roost]

It's a hoop that you just admitted instantly biases you to assume they are unqualified!

[stark canyon]

Or you'd need to send a message explaining why it wouldn't work and either request or suggest alternative solutions, like a remote interview where you can use your desktop computer, a loan computer, etc. If that disadvantages you ever so slightly compared to other candidates, again, sorry but our job isn't to make the absolutely most fairest of all hiring processes, it's to fill a role. You can't blame a company or interviewer for that.

[summer roost]

It's not "ever so slightly", clearly. You stated like 3 separate times that you don't think someone homeless will have the skills, and you've decided that without even interviewing them, based on their possessions

[smoky quest]

just use coderpad or a CDE?

on the candidate side, a library or job center would usually provide you access to a computer if needed for interviews

[stark canyon]

I stated that if someone is homeless I would expect them to be able to justify how they came across the skills they claim to have. Would also expect people to list their education and prior work experience on their CV. What's the problem?

[summer roost]

Huh? The homeless person's resume/CV would list their education and work experience, just like every other candidate's.

[stark canyon]

I think you are exaggerating the amount of bias I have against people of lesser means, provided that they give me reason to believe they're cut out for the role.

[royal meadow]

someones background or current state shouldn't be a factor for hiring but similarly it shouldn't be a factor for rejecting either. If there are such companies, i'd highly suggest looking for something else. You won't be happy there ein the long run.

[summer roost]

Right. The single most important thing when it comes to comparing candidates is a level playing field. Having some candidates use devices that they have personally spent time customizing for their comfort and others use a web based IDE that they've never seen before disadvantages some of them before the interview has even started, and that's exactly why every candidate should have to use the web IDE

[stark canyon]

Yeah, in this scenario I would send them a message asking them to bring in their laptop for an interview. I would expect a reasonable person to at least say something like "sorry, I haven't had a personal laptop for some time, I just use a desktop computer at work" or "I lost my laptop in a fire some time ago" or whatever reasoning. I would not expect them to just say "no" and not explain anything. If they do, that would count against them for the position.

[icy pagoda]

how much would you feel it's weighted against you if the company allowed everyone else to bring their own laptops but allowed you to setup your preferred config on their computer (assuming there's no major technical issues with the given system)?

[summer roost]

Well, sure, obviously. But again, you said 3 separate times that if someone tells you they don't have a laptop, you assume they're less likely to be qualified than someone who does have a laptop, a bias that's completely unsupported by reality

[icy pagoda]

well, I guess it depends on all the tooling required

yeah nvm, it could be a pain with some things (but not for a quick setup of your editor config + LSP + other such configs)

[smoky quest]

I would not have any issue using the candidate's IDE if that's what they are the most familiar with.
My job is to find the best candidate, not to hold back people if they have spent the time and effort making better tools for themselves

[stark canyon]

Yes, because I was imagining a world in which I'm provided this information in absentia of other clues that they are a good candidate.

[summer roost]

Why would you imagine such a world, instead of imagining that you're setting up an interview because they applied to the job and their resume seemed like a good fit and you want to find out if their skills are a good match or not?

[stark canyon]

I don't think we would be able to accurately judge whether that's the factor that makes them succeed. But I also don't think it needs to be our responsibility to, to a certain extent.

[summer roost]

You seem to have set up a hypothetical that's completely detached from the reality of how hiring works

[smoky quest]

by the same token, we should not look at personal projects since it might put some candidate in an advantageous position since others may not have had the time, will and opportunity to make projects.
And so that reasoning can go quite far.

In the end, if an IDE or customization makes a lot of differences, there are bigger problems at play and they should not really impact much (it can help with confidence and stress level though)

[icy pagoda]

I don't think you should "level" the playing field for everyone by putting everyone at the same disadvantage

that sounds like a much worse practice, you should try to accommodate the person who's already at a disadvantage

[stark canyon]

Mmm. I can agree that I may have read and reacted to your initial message the wrong way. I took it as a challenge as to why someone I know nothing about except the fact that they can't bring a laptop to a coding interview should bias me against hiring them. In hindsight that probably wasn't a fair reading of what you were advocating. But I think you're exaggerating the amount of crap I'd give someone for not conforming to a certain shape, and I also think that on some level, it's justified to take some shortcuts in the hiring process to make it easier, faster and more effective.

[summer roost]

Genuine question, why not? What advantage do you get out of letting some candidates use personal devices that they've spent months or years configuring their editor on while other candidates make do with a web browser?

[icy pagoda]

other candidates should not make do with a web browser to the best of the company's abilities. in fact, it is common in some places to allow them time to get comfortable/install their configs in the provided computer

making the environment worse for everyone makes you test their base potential, not their potential in normal workflows

[stark canyon]

We could also look at this from the other side and say, why would you bias the process against people who for some reason get freaked out by being dumped in an unfamiliar development environment and can't perform according to their normal abilities in that setting?

[summer roost]

It's certainly true that it's not possible to eliminate all sources of interviewer bias from the hiring process. I think the most important thing is to be aware of those sources of bias, because awareness of prejudice is often all it takes to catch yourself doing it and avoid making a rash decision. And it's worth considering what sorts of candidates are more likely to succeed at a given style of interview and which ones will be systematically disadvantaged

[stark canyon]

In fact, why even bother with interviews? Some people are just really bad at handling the stress of an interview. We would pass those candidates by!

[stark canyon]

Sure, I do find that a concern. But although the interview process we have isn't perfect, I do believe it's better (for the company and most candidates) than just drawing lots out of a hat.

[summer roost]

Yes, absolutely. That's an important consideration in how I've been trained to do interviewing. We weight the opinions of interviewers in later rounds higher than the opinions of interviewers in earlier rounds exactly to help cancel out that sort of effect where candidates perform poorly in the first round due to nervousness and much better in later rounds when they've had a chance to collect themselves and are talking to new interviewers that they don't already feel they've embarrassed themselves in front of

[stark canyon]

It also sounds like your interview process is bigger and more formal than ours, which might help explain our differences in perspective 🙂

[summer roost]

I've never seen an interview like that, and have a lot of trouble picturing how it would work. Is the candidate sitting alone in the company's offices for an hour or two just installing and configuring vim plugins, or what?

[stark canyon]

For context, our last hire that I was involved with was made based on a few phone interviews by our HR manager (non technical) to just get a sense of their background and personality, then that bubbled up to me and I got to sit in with them for an hour in a technical interview (remotely) to verify that they actually weren't just bluffing their way past a non technical recruiter. We ended up having a second interview because I wasn't entirely sure, and I think a large part of that was because I felt like the candidate didn't perform that well but that there might have been other factors such as nervousness or unfamiliarity with that kind of interview at play. And we did end up hiring him, and overall I think we made a good choice.

[icy pagoda]

it happened multiple times at my place
it's around 15-20 minutes of time (depending on the previous candidate) before the interviewer arrives where they gain access to the system. they are instructed to get their preferred environment during this time
the interviewer was busy interviewing the previous candidate in a different room
(although they do not generally allow your own devices like laptops, so I guess it's closer to the "level" playing field)

[summer roost]

Sounds much better from that point of view, yeah

[stark canyon]

See, I think most people are reasonable in general 🙃 For what it's worth, I appreciate you clarifying your position for me.

[summer roost]

Though I'll say that last time I got my work laptop replaced, it took me probably about half a day to get things configured to the point where I found it usable and wasn't just finding a new pain point every time I ran an editor or shell command, and that was with the ability to scp stuff from the old machine to the new. In 20 minutes I'd really struggle, at least unless I put a bunch of effort in in advance towards having dotfiles I could drop in on a new machine and have things Just Work

[smoky quest]

From what I have seen, it's pretty much down to key bindings like vim vs emacs. Folks will hardly go too far beyond that

[summer roost]

I suspect the people using VSCode would have a much easier time with that than the people using neovim, though, heh

[icy pagoda]

oh yeah, dotfiles was a practice actively recommended by our university's cell for software roles

[stark canyon]

Honestly at that point I'd just give up and say "I'm just gonna use whatever environment is here, but please be advised this isn't my normal setup".

[summer roost]

I probably would too, tbh

[trail totem]

[full solar]

(Just throwing this out there ; I don't own a laptop and am preparing for a coding interview. I'd be automatically disqualified if they didn't allow me to do the aptitude tests on my home computer).

[fringe sphinx]

There's also competing philosophies of 'hire slow fire slow' vs 'hire fast fire fast' (and the various other permutations)

[surreal yoke]

There's a difference between sending someone a coding exercise to do and live coding. What you are describing is closer to the former, especially if it doesn't involve someone staring over their shoulder.

[fringe sphinx]

We don't allow ads or recruiting here. Your post has been deleted

Large companies -must- fire slow, therefore hire slow is strongly preferred

[stark canyon]

What I read into live coding is, you are showing your process to someone. Whether you do so on a whiteboard or on a screen is irrelevant in my book.
Edit: irrelevant regarding whether it meets the definition. I would personally prefer to use a computer both as a candidate and examiner.

[surreal yoke]

I do not own a laptop. I have a work issued laptop, a phone, an iPad, and a Mac Mini. I also have 20 years experience as a professional software engineer. You would be biased against me because I do not own a laptop that I have no use for?

[stark canyon]

As I've outlined in other messages, I would be skeptical if your lack of a laptop was the only thing I knew about you, and of course I would expect you to be able to demonstrate your skills in some way, and that there would be references who could back up your 20 year experience claims, same as with anyone else 🙂

[surreal yoke]

And the whole premise of my blog post is that live coding exercises don't show people the process candidates use. The exercises themselves are often unrealistic and rely on skills rarely used for non real world problems.

[stark canyon]

Side note - and someone is probably going to read something into this - but would you not be inclined to bring your work laptop with you for an interview if someone asked you to? Maybe this is just my lack of moral standards, but I would not feel the slightest bit bad about that. Of course, reasonable explanations like "my work doesn't let me take it from the office" or "they wanted it back when I quit my last job" apply.

[surreal yoke]

Hell no. Nor would I be willing to bring a laptop I own.

[stark canyon]

Sure, that's a valid criticism. Although on some level, unless you're going to ask the candidate to literally work for you for a week during the interview process (which imo is worse), there's no getting around some amount of disconnect between interviews and reality.

[stark canyon]

All right, suit yourself. Is there a reason for that, other than being categorically opposed to live coding?

[surreal yoke]

I agree. But there are better ways. Take home exercise so you see code output. Code review, as I mentioned. My team has a deck with some questions including "what does this code do?" ones.

[surreal yoke]

I would not want to connect my personal machine, or my employer's, to someone else's corporate network.

[stark canyon]

In the mean time I've also seen arguments against take home exercises because of the unfair burden it places upon the candidate's time in comparison to the company. I'm just not convinced that live coding has absolutely no value in any circumstance in assessing candidate abilities. It will of course depend a lot on implementation.

[stark canyon]

Sure! I'd be happy to lend you a machine or do a remote interview.

[surreal yoke]

I have yet to see a good one. Having written malloc on paper multiple times at this point...

[stark canyon]

Yeah, that's not a task I'd ask anyone to do. Being able to implement malloc doesn't interest me.

[fringe sphinx]

tbf, the thing lacking in this conversation is distinguishing: entry level interview filters from mid/senior engineer interviews.

[stark canyon]

Yes, absolutely a fair point.

[fringe sphinx]

The state of the market right now somewhat demands a "lazy" approach to the entry level filters.

(that said, I'd love it if I would get a job solely on a coding interview... alas, gray-ing hair)

[stark canyon]

Does anyone have a good recommendation for how a software engineer interview process should vary on a sliding scale from novice to 20 years experience? 🤔 Unless the argument is that a code review session would be the optimal approach under all scenarios.

Would also be interested about everyone's thoughts on the axis of small to large company, and other relevant factors you can think of.

[surreal yoke]

We use the same deck for everyone. We modify our expectations and there's one that we often skip for junior roles.

[surreal yoke]

As a candidate I haven't seen many differences.

[icy pagoda]

if you received a take home exercise, the amount of effort you put could be very different from the amount of effort someone else would

every hiring round is incentivizing the candidates to optimize for something. take home exercises make candidates optimize to put in 20 hours of work in a day and scanning through their code to review all the best practices multiple times and verifying from other professionals if need be

just for the screening round. you'll probably receive a lot of stellar codebases if the pay is high enough/candidates are interested enough

even though they might not perform as well while actually working

[stark canyon]

"Every measure, when made into a target, ceases to be a good measure."

[icy pagoda]

there are some targets which are better than others

identifying them is probably much harder but you do not want people to optimize for the wrong targets which will not benefit the organization

[stark canyon]

You're not going to manage to design a target which accurately measures what you want within the constraints either.

That's pretty much equivalent to saying "you don't want people to game the hiring process". Yes, sure, but that's not a solution, that's a description of a property the solution would have.

[icy pagoda]

yeah true

in the case of take home assignments though, I feel it's as bad as the existing ones - with the added disadvantage that I would not want to live in a world where companies regularly conduct it for hiring and every candidate optimizes for it

purely because it would take up much more time which is mostly a QOL loss

it probably could be better than leetcode rounds at the core of what people optimize towards though ig, especially if the knowledge is never used at work

[stark canyon]

To bring it back to the conversation about biases - any process you have will be biased towards or against someone. I got my first job with a take-home assignment. I later witnessed that same workplace bypass a different candidate, arguably because they had a life to prioritize over job hunting. Take home assignments are biased towards the people with the luxury of being able to dedicate more time than the average applicant to working "on spec" as it were with an assignment. Live coding interviews are biased towards the people with the ability to perform under that kind of unnatural pressure. Nothing will ever be perfect.

[icy pagoda]

with enough take home assignments, people will probably get better at making or contributing to actual projects and writing better code (wrt code reviews) in a system like this i guess

so, it's probably an actually good method, it's just worse QOL compared to other existing methods rn

which tbf, i don't really have a problem with. most interviewers have been very reasonable in technical rounds for me

[dapper latch]

By the way guys, have you tried working in DataAnnotation? I passed my programming qualification but no new projects yet

[neon vortex]

How do I transfer myself to MIT, in my first year of college

[fringe sphinx]

That'd be a question for the MIT admissions office

https://mitadmissions.org/apply/transfer/transfer-eligibility/

[neon vortex]

I want to ask about the qualifications and skills I would need

oh Thanks, I think it is helpful

[neon vortex]

but @fringe sphinx what should I learn initially like Python, ML, English etc
I will begin my mechanical engineering this year on 23rd July

[fringe sphinx]

English is a valuable skill for any engineer. I'm not the person to ask about it tho... but I do know many engineers who've taken "access reduction" courses to improve their careers in the US.

Python is something you can learn on your own, see #python-discussion message

[neon vortex]

what do you mean by "access reduction" courses

[fringe sphinx]

I meant, "accent"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accent_reduction

[neon vortex]

Oh, I currently speak Indian English very fluently. I think it will be a helpful course for me to able to speak better and more american English.
Thank you

[vapid jay]

british english is better

[peak halo]

better in what sense? there's no general sense in which a language variety can be inherently better than another one.

[next plover]

Unless it's lisp

[fringe sphinx]

Except Python ofc?

[vapid jay]

Sounds better to me 🤣

[fringe sphinx]

Altho, if we're comparing English dialects, what comes to mind is https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/modern-minds/201609/why-do-british-accents-sound-intelligent-americans

[neon vortex]

that will be even easier

[smoky quest]

You will need to check for the ability to code regardless of the level. You don't want an astronaut architect or someone who can't get their hands dirty.

Beyond that, I would suggest to look at career ladders and prioritize which 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏 you want to assess for.
For instance, system design, leadership and impact will be far more important for >senior.

[leaden vigil]

Guys is being a software engineer worth it and would it burn you out slowly?

[fringe sphinx]

Hasn't yet.

[leaden vigil]

Wdym

[fringe sphinx]

Hasn't burnt me out

I was answer the latter half.

[leaden vigil]

You got a job?

[fringe sphinx]

Many many years ago, yes.

[leaden vigil]

Why’d you leave?

Did it burn you out?

[fringe sphinx]

Who says I left?

I said 'yet'

[leaden vigil]

Sounds like you left, my bad

[fringe sphinx]

But more fully: I find my work fulfilling, challenging and always varied. There are -many- types of jobs in tech. Even within a company, team cultures are different: you might love working in a particular project and with certain coworkers... and hate another

That said, I've never disliked a job. Except perhaps some consulting projects.

[faint depot]

What sector do you work in and what does it entail?

[fringe sphinx]

I've worked in a few sectors. Started my career in products for enterprise backends... basically software for enterprise tech departments. Did a few different things, now am in fin tech

[faint depot]

I guess that involves a lot of work with databases and data analytics or is it a lot more different than Id expected it to be?

[fringe sphinx]

Every job I've had involved a lot of databases. I eventually became a database specialist

But that's just a lazy way of saying: i like sql.

[near rapids]

Would I still be respected in the industry without a degree

[smoky quest]

Some would, some would not

Though the main thing is not about being respected but about having an awesome career.
In terms of career, a degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[regal lintel]

hey, I just started with python 2 to 3 months back, I like it pretty good. I tried cpp before but didn't liked it. But now i am stuck what to pursue further

i practice it daily too on leetcode as much as i can

[smoky quest]

leetcode is great for two things:

• when you start out to learn about algorithms
• to prepare for interviews, a few weeks beforehand

It sounds like you are in neither case and thus projects would have a higher ROI

[regal lintel]

what project i should make i don't like youtube tutorial ones

[fringe sphinx]

How about a snake game?

[regal lintel]

i like core python which uses strings, list, oops etc and want to explore further with multi-processing, threading in that and i am not into games

[smoky quest]

https://github.com/catsmells/pro-g-ramming_challenges?tab=readme-ov-file has a list

[regal lintel]

don't u think it's something not for beginner like me

[fringe sphinx]

!kin

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[regal lintel]

i want to build my profile with some good python projects, some contributions (which i never did and also don't know how to)
i am in pulling my hair out state

That's kind of thing i am looking for

[smoky quest]

Some are listed as for beginners

[regal lintel]

it's good thanks buddy!

[neat girder]

Hey , I'm just a beginner in python. I'm just wondering if u have any useful courses for intermediate level ,that covers all things i would need in that level , because I'm currently about to finish the basics ( if there's any tips for me after me that i should do after finishing the basics i hope u could tell me ) before i move to intermediate.

[regal lintel]

try https://learning.edx.org/course/course-v1:HarvardX+CS50P+Python/home

[neat girder]

Is it for free ?

[fringe sphinx]

Cs50p is free, but there's also a paid certificate option

[neat girder]

I see thank youu

[last saddle]

@strange wren is a scammer , ban him please , i can provide proof in dms

[deft herald]

You can DM @severe widget

[last saddle]

Thanks

[vapid jay]

how far can I get in the industry if I'm poor at math?

[peak halo]

Stop telling yourself that you're bad at math.

[fringe sphinx]

Pretty far. Do you know how many space probes have crashed due to bad math?

(Mine is the joke answer, or its the sad truth, not sure b

My non joke answer is; most people confuse being bad at math class with being bad at math.

[peak halo]

Or disliking math class with being bad at math.

[vapid jay]

No, ive tried and failed at doing 3d computer graphics, physics, and complex algorithms (usually involving graphs and trees)

[fringe sphinx]

Those are all hard things.

[vapid jay]

I'm also quite bad at leetcode

[fringe sphinx]

Happy to help with any one of those tho. You get good by asking 'why' a lot

[peak halo]

Leetcode questions aren't a good predictor of practical programming ability. They're more puzzles than anything else

[vapid jay]

What I am good at is designing apis, abstractions, and generally hacking stuff together

[fringe sphinx]

Me too. Good thing this is what SWEs do, more than leetcode.

You sound normal to me.

[vapid jay]

im panicking because my world view is breaking apart

[peak halo]

Don't worry. nothing is under control.

[vapid jay]

I really want to be a game dev but im bad at most of the math required in game dev

[peak halo]

The game engine handles the physics, does it not?
In either case, I think you should keep pursuing your goals, but also adapt a more positive attitude towards math

[fringe sphinx]

I think you overestimate how much math ppl really do. And underestimate how good you could get at something if you put the time that ppl who do physics engine have (and few game devs are building their physics engines)

[vapid jay]

ive only tried making games (and failed) in low-level environments with no guardrails

[fringe sphinx]

Have you tried a snake game?

[vapid jay]

i dont think so

[fringe sphinx]

That's a good starter project that can scale up in complexity

[vapid jay]

i tried recreating a platformer game, and making the physics accurately was so difficult i eventually gave up

[fringe sphinx]

How long have you been programming?

[vapid jay]

maybe like 6 years?

[fringe sphinx]

And how many games that involved physics have you done?

[vapid jay]

ive never made a proper game

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, there you go. Make a snake game 🙂

[vapid jay]

but i would be stuck making simple games all my life?

[fringe sphinx]

Why would you think that?

[vapid jay]

while i see people way younger than me make complex 3d demos

[fringe sphinx]

So? I've never made a complex 3d demo. I'm not quite sure how I'd start, other than with a simple 3d demo.

[vapid jay]

when i was starting out with programming, i had attempted to make simple things

[fringe sphinx]

Programming is about breaking complex problems into smaller simpler problems. A good SWE decomposes problems.

[vapid jay]

also i feel im quite slow at programming. i just dont realize it because when i am doing it, im very focused

snake can't be that difficult, right?

[fringe sphinx]

You're sounding really negative. Everything you're saying is perfectly normal. You're judging yourself unfairly against your perceptions of other ppl.

[fringe sphinx]

It has hard parts, for sure. Start with making the snake 'head' move around the game area

As you add features, hard problems will occur

For example, detecting collisions with itself (as the snake gets longer)

[last moat]

I need serious advice and i am tired of going back and forth.

Should i focus and expand freelancing business or focus on finding junior/intern level job?

I make 200$/month average with web scraping and automation skills. Full time job in my country also pays same amount. The problem is most jobs are web dev related and i am stuck whether should i focus on DSA or Build a portfolio. Because in interviews they ask dsa problems. I failed alot of interviews. But in freelancing i dont have to solve dsa problems. So i am stuck what to focus. I tried to move to Test automation and Data science but left unfinished. Would freelancing be a better option? Cuz i already have a profile and i can earn 3-4x more than a job + no DSA thing. I just have learn, make portfolio and apply?

[oblique flame]

I may not have a whole lot of experience with freelancing or in the tech field. However, marketing your skills is key. If you enjoy the freelance side of it and excel in a specific area, capitalize on that and market your skills in that area. Best thing you can do is get your name out there and search in all different places for work. At first it may seem tedious, but once your work starts showing and people start recommending you, your name gets spread from word-of-mouth and more jobs come in.
There are many companies and privately owned places that stick to one specific thing and just do it really well.

[last moat]

How do i stick to one specific thing. I go back and forth. Is it ADHD or something. Cant focus. after spending month on different role I get thoughts "other role might be better"

[oblique flame]

I have a similar issue with wanting to jump around. The problem is not so much overthinking, it comes down to one of two things, in my opinion, 1. Lack of interest or passion in the subject or 2. No set goal or purpose.
If you have passion in something, it's easier to do it just solely on your enjoyment, however, if you set a goal for yourself or designate a purpose then your focus would be more set on that one thing.

Youu said you make $200 a month on average and can make 3-4x that doing freelance work that you do. What would/could be the next attainable goal for you and what is an achievable timeline to make it in?
Set something that is not overwhelming but that you can achieve and progress toward a larger goal (don't set an end goal, just a next goal).

[last moat]

I lack will power and passion. I have 9 year old CPTSD. I lay down in front of every challenge. But i think now i see the way. Learn Fastapi/django and apply more till i get my first web dev project. That should be the goal

[oblique flame]

Will power and passion will come once you start meeting your smaller goals. Challenges are tricky because if they're too easy they are boring and not worth the time, but if they are too difficult, take too long, or confusing, they create more of an obstacle to overcome due to disappointment or loss of motivation.

Your main goal is get a Web Development Project. This is good, but needs a timeline otherwise you may end up with the 'it'll happen when it happens' or the 'I'm not ready' mentality, which you want to avoid.

How soon would you like to get into that project? Set the timeline. Make sure it's not too far away and not too early where you rush.

[last moat]

Thanks man. Very helpful tips. Setting small achieveable goals has reduced my confusion

I wasted year to just think what to do

[oblique flame]

Glad I could help. Once you set your timeline, pick out little things like practicing or enhancing your skills until you jump on a project.

[worldly brook]

Hello there im new to python. I started a basic course , and wondering should i go to bootcamp for stack python developer. And thank you all.

[eager delta]

Hello there

[barren summit]

Anyone hiring?

[smoky quest]

plenty of companies are

[barren summit]

I don't find none almost seeking since 5 years

[smoky quest]

plenty are hiring this year

[barren summit]

Can you share, I would love to apply

[smoky quest]

indeed and linkedin are quite popular job boards

[barren summit]

Applied but never received reply.

[smoky quest]

Feel free to post an anonymized version of your resume for feedback

All else being equal, not hearing back from job applications might imply the issue is your application is not the best fit with the roles

[barren summit]

Idk 😦 but I'm disappointed.

[smoky quest]

it's tough out there

[barren summit]

I'm python full stack developer build product but nobody is buying my software or giving opportunities. Yes it's tough here, looking for global client

I have my own payment gateway, so working with clients worldwide is easy. Feel free to share my details.

[smoky quest]

it's not a place to hire

[barren summit]

Okay I understand

[barren summit]

Please refer me or share with anyone hiring. https://www.linkedin.com/in/bipul7

[untold herald]

!rule ad

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[unkempt wind]

Hi im italian and i’m 19 yrs old, and i wanna be an excellent programmer, in octuber i’ll start college. I know the basic Python the syntax and some librarie, but i can learn fast, i don’t like so much the oop but i can improve. Really now im studying C and i dont use often python so to don’t lose the knowledge i want do some real-world project. can you help me to find someone who can need my help?

[vapid jay]

Do cs50x itll set u up for college, Then do maybe cs50 webdev

[unkempt wind]

What is it?

[vapid jay]

Google exists bro

[white relic]

This isn't the kind of response we like to encourage on this server.
You aren't obligated to answer any question, but if the best you can do is "Google exists", it's better not to answer.

[vapid jay]

Oh sorry

[vapid jay]

Its a online course, go on browser and type cs50x and click on the edex link

[rancid apex]

Will artificial intelligence take my job as python developer

[analog sun]

@boreal pine hello, your message was removed for violating server rule 6 regarding advertisements

[peak halo]

if you already have one and know what you're doing, probably not.

[rancid apex]

But ChatGPT can just auto generate code that takes me weeks to think of

[peak halo]

do you already have a job, and do you know what you're doing?

[rancid apex]

Yes but I just do basic python scripting

[peak halo]

what is your job?

[rancid apex]

Python developer I just write scripts to automate how many times a python program runs so like at my job if like someone submits a file into our queue I have python program that automatically exports to PDF which I then email to the end users

[peak halo]

and that's the only thing you do?

[rancid apex]

Yea I don't have lots of responsibilities, just a junior role

[peak halo]

regardless of the supposed threat of AI, I would ask for more responsibilities so you can keep developing your skills.

[rancid apex]

What skills are good to learn for hire ability for future job.

Like do I need Django do I need data engineering skills

[peak halo]

@rancid apex what does your company do? I would develop whatever skills make you more valuable in your current role.

[rancid apex]

It's a bum company I'm ready to leave it. They never hire within or promote within

Does data engineering have good job prospects

[unkempt wind]

Sorry

[rancid apex]

For what? Can you help answer my question

[vapid jay]

Nah u good bro

[rancid apex]

I'm gonna need answers @vapid jay

[grand cloud]

hi there! I'm currently minoring in computer science with experience in Python. Should I do any certifications online before I apply for internships, do I go for my Masters in CS, or should I just find a entry level job and work my way up from there? Im looking more towards software & cloud engineering, developer.

[peak halo]

what is your major?

this doesn't sound quite right to me. do you work in industry?

[vapid jay]

I am still studying in college first year but my brother has done what I said

[peak halo]

hmm, alright

[vapid jay]

And why does that not sound right I am seeking to learn more

[peak halo]

employers don't want you to only work for them for a few months. and you shouldn't need to do certificates, especially if you're getting a degree.

I assume by "entry-level job" you mean one in industry. not service/retail.

[vapid jay]

Mhmm alright thanks for the help will delete my message so he won't get misguided

[peak halo]

I'm not asking you to do that, to be clear.

[vapid jay]

Ik I just felt u had a point

[tepid breach]

https://blog.abdulwahab.live/understanding-rag-the-revolutionary-technology-behind-modern-ai-applications

[rancid apex]

Does data engineering have good job prospects

[frigid ice]

Hi, I’m a Senior Software Engineer with over 8 years of experience building scalable website, cloud-native software solutions across industries like healthcare, fintech, e-commerce, gaming, logistics, and energy.

[sage marten]

yoooo guys

[dusky bridge]

(yes, brag) just got a DE offer at Meta does anyone have any suggestions on what teams to look at specifically for long term career growth while also providing for WLB if doable

[astral lichen]

Hello if I want to get started in full stack should I first learn the back end or the front end

[minor ice]

heyyyy im new

aparently i need to be active here

cant join voice chats and all

[molten spoke]

you'll be able to join voice channels, just not speak, make sure not to spam to meet requirements!

[minor ice]

do i have to meet all three or is just one enough?

[molten spoke]

all 3

[vapid jay]

Hello, I am a self-taught Python developer looking to establish a career as a software developer and land my first job. I build projects in artificial intelligence, full stack web development, and automation. Am skilled with PyTorch, NumPy, Django, Flask, and BeautifulSoup. Looking to network with professional developers and contribute to open source projects as well. Thanks for reading. If you follow my GitHub I'll follow back.

https://github.com/bdbenton5255

[tall zealot]

Which libraries do you suggest I learn?

[leaden vigil]

Guys, can I get hired at big tech companies like Google and Microsoft if I don’t have a CS degree? I’m willing to work on my skills.

[near ocean]

Everyone has a willingness to improve their skills and a lot of people, basically everyone, has at least a degree

[glad smelt]

they only hire top university grads

[uncut bay]

Hey guys I'm 14 years old and I don't know what to do right now - I want to become a software engineer or something similar in the future and I keep jumping between web development, game development and random python projects, but I want to stick to something and make it enjoyable so I can use these skills later on. Any advice?

[leaden vigil]

I’m cooked then

[last chasm]

I hope im on the right channel. Ive made a personnal project. I dont know if its good enough to B share on LinkedIn or to recruit team. can i share m'y github ?

[vapid jay]

go uni, do personal projects, apply internships and u should have a chance, ive seen people from less known univeristies get internships at big tech

[leaden vigil]

Wouldn’t the less known Uni waste my time because a lot of less known unis teach outdated stuff

[vapid jay]

well in the uk the course is regulated by the same organisation for all unis except maybe oxbridge, so all courses have similar modules, teaching would not be outdated, look at unis you can get into as a mature student and their modules, also u learn a lot by yourself , thats why i said build personal projects

[wraith harbor]

i think the most important skill to hone for you right now is just learning the fundamentals and also learning how to learn. i suggest you keep looking at different programming domains and learn about the ones that excite you the most. there are probably many topics you havent learned much about, that you might end up really enjoying

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384>

[nocturne harbor]

!warn 1145060821626536057 Don't spam random BS anymore, or you will get banned.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @stark storm.

[stark storm]

cmon

[fringe sphinx]

The tech industry is massive. It's not just 2 companies. Prepare by getting good, by learning, and by talking to people. The best career strategy is to try everything and be prepared.

[leaden vigil]

But if we try to learn we won’t learn anything

[icy pagoda]

huh

[leaden vigil]

We can start by mastering two skills

[leaden vigil]

In tech industry there are plenty of skills

[fringe sphinx]

I think you're missing a word or something by here

[leaden vigil]

Yea I said if we try to learn every skill we won’t be able to learn anything at all

[fringe sphinx]

By 'try everything' I don't mean literally everything. I mean 'try lots of things'. Breadth over depth.

Early specialization considered harmful.

[vapid jay]

Guys if you had to Start your coding journey today what would you learn and How would you... what mistakes you would avoid?

[leaden vigil]

I’ve been learning python for like 5 days and it’s going good but I’m scared of dsa

[white relic]

Universities don't generally teach the latest tech and that's not why employers look for university degrees.
If you have solid fundamentals, learning whatever new framework or thing came out this year is just a matter of time.

[white relic]

Personally, I wouldn't bother learning anything about frontend, because it turns out that is just 0% interesting to me. (Everyone's different.)

[icy pagoda]

i mean, you needed to do it to understand you were not interested by it

[leaden vigil]

What if somebody has a degree which is not related to cs, I think it would affect his employment rate even if he has the same amount of skills required for a specific job, would they prefer cs grads?

[white relic]

Of course I made mistakes while learning, but that's a part of learning. I'm not unhappy with how things turned out (disclaimer: I'm more of a EE who codes than a SWE)

[white relic]

It depends 🤷‍♂️ if it's a degree completely unrelated to coding or to the business, yes, I imagine he would have a difficult time being considered

[wraith harbor]

i wish i talked to my teachers more

[icy pagoda]

oh ye, that is a good advice

[white relic]

people who are making mid-career shifts vary a lot more than people just starting, because they have more history and all kinds of different reasons for such a shift, so you have to take them on more of a case by case basis

[fringe sphinx]

DSA is just a collection of topics. Topics that require thought... a lot of thought, but they're also concepts you could explain to an 8 year old

[fringe sphinx]

As a hiring manager, I do prefer CS grads for SWE positions. But I meet people in tech with many degrees. I just met a very technical solutions architect from AWS this week who had an Econ degree

[icy pagoda]

just focus on the programming language, "DSA" will be natural while you solve puzzles using the language
you'll start to notice patterns with time/after a formal course

[leaden vigil]

My math is slightly above average, but my physics is weak. Would dsa work for me?

[icy pagoda]

mfw

[fringe sphinx]

It's not a math class.

And every CS major takes a DSA course, it's a standard thing... don't stress it.

[wraith harbor]

do hiring managers care much about the past resumes, applications at other companies, or whatever other trackable information the ATS gives you? or is it not a big deal? Like if the system tells you they have gotten a lot of interviews, you might think they're probably a good candidate?
im just curious how much the ATS tracking stuff factors into hiring decisions

[fringe sphinx]

I don't use or know modern ATS systems. I used to get resumes from corp HR with nothing extra but that's years ago

[white relic]

ATS doesn't tell you if the candidate applied elsewhere.

At least, not in my experience.

[vapid violet]

I feel like that would be a massive privacy issue in today's world. And they would probably make it more clear that the software they use shares info about you to other companies

[fringe sphinx]

Not that that has stopped anyone /s

[marsh badger]

potato

[white relic]

Our ATS is super annoying. It requires a gazillion clicks to do anything and every resume opens in a new tab so it's hard to do streamlined reviews. There are buttons for flagging applications with different colors but there's no explanation for what the colors mean and the flags are global, so you can't use them to keep track of multiple people reviewing resumes.

This doesn't have anything to do with privacy concerns, I'm just annoyed enough to complain about it

Hi, this is the career discussion channel. We talk about careers and career advice here

please stop

[marsh badger]

hi
i want to learn hacking

hey
give me this frekin advice

[white relic]

we don't really talk about that kind of thing on this server, but you can try #cybersecurity perhaps someone there could give you some pointers

[wraith harbor]

hm i thought for some reason you had said in this channel it does all that, but i looked it up and it appears i just imagined that

im getting old i guess

[olive nova]

heyyy,does anybody have a github student verified account ???
I really need it

[near ocean]

No and this isn't the channel to ask for one, try your school?

[wispy cave]

I'm making a chess engine to play at ~1000 elo level. Is that a resume worthy project or should I save space on it and mention other projects and just leave a link to my github account?

[near ocean]

A chess engine is pretty much always worthy of a cv spot, unless its not actually an engine and just a frontend for existing engines like stockfish, value drops hard then

[ruby vessel]

mods ban @wispy cave for bad tag

[wispy cave]

Thank you!

[wispy cave]

whats wrong with iforgotmyoldaccountoops?

[true harness]

1000 is a very low target for a chess engine

[wispy cave]

this is just the first iteration of it^ I want to try and optimise it so that it can go to a depth of 6 relatively quickly and then I'll work on improving its elo to 2000+

[fringe sphinx]

That sounds like a great project for 3 reasons: 1. You'll learn a lot and become a better programmer. 2. It has a broad appeal- people would love to talk to you about the project and what you learned. 3. It's fun

[wispy cave]

Awesome :D Thank you very much!

[fringe sphinx]

Enthusiasm is underappreciated: I love talking to people who are enthusiastic about a project they've built

[wispy cave]

in that case, i'd love to talk to you about it whenever i end up finishing it^

[zinc halo]

Man I think my career is... destroyed maybe

[icy pagoda]

what's your story?

[zinc halo]

Didn't land a great engineering college...didn't do much tech in 1st year...I only know basic C, java n python...idk I'm too confused about what to do

[icy pagoda]

and you're in your second year?

[zinc halo]

Yea it just started

[icy pagoda]

FAR from it and you know that

[zinc halo]

Well...I'm anxious about it...

Seriously :/

[dense tartan]

Can anyone get in a call with me and teach me python i understand better with real people thanks if so just add me on discord and help me learn and uhh i will owe you one

[near ocean]

No, thats called private tutoring and people pay tons of money for it

[tight hinge]

am learning python, how to get more resources from here?

[vapid jay]

Cs50 python is a good intro, the. Build ur own projects

[peak halo]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[summer night]

Hi

[nimble stone]

Im kinda confused on what to do tbh, learnt python in school 3 years back for 2 yrs and i a decently good at it. I am currently pursuing btech in cs and my 2nd yr is gonna start. I probably wanna go towards data analysis and in sports specifically if possible. Idk if i need to pursue higher studies after btech. I feel other programming languages r too tough for me but i am trying to learn R,seaborn in python aswell and i have just made my first discord bot. Any advice would be appreciated

[open ivy]

One thing about applications is that there is an extreme difference in the "haves" and the "have nots" even if the skill levels are similar. This is the nature of winner-take-all systems.

Suppose there is a job with 200 applicants and "John" beats each applicant with a 90% chance because he tailors his resume and does other standard stuff. What are the odds he is the "best" by whatever metric the company or ATS has decided? Only 20 people will on average beat him, which is not that many, so the odds are reasonable? No! The odds are 0.9^200 which is less than 1 in a billion. As a general rule to have reasonable (1%) odds you need a sizable chunk of your applications to place you in the top 5 or all applicants. If AI slop happens and there are 2000 apps but John rises to the top 1% not much has changed.

John only has meaningful hope if he either changes the aforementioned parameters OR breaks the assumptions of the model.

Improve on the metric: This is the obvious one but gets very hard to do beyond the basics (which are still a good thing!). Tailoring the resume and other formatting tips are common practice among the top 10% of applicants. The trouble is job descriptions are too vague to do all that much tailoring.

The easiest way I know about is to network because knowing someone who gets along with you is valuable. Remember that networking is more about social relationships and less about the direct get-a-job approach.

Find better matches: This works well if you have years of specific industry experience. But if not, the vague job descriptions don't provide much to go off of.

Find companies with not that many decent applicants: I have hope that its not that hard to get around the pagerank. On the other hand, people say even tiny companies get flooded.

Currently I can't really do much with applications, so the focus is networking.

[smoky quest]

This is just completely wrong and not how any of this work.

There is no random trials, it's about standing out through your 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏 .
It's also not about optimizing anything but about having the best and most 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏 through education, projects and experience

[open ivy]

How does the ATS evaluate personal projects?

[pine sleet]

ats just tracks applications it doesnt evaluate anything

[smoky quest]

In most cases, it will be the hiring manager or recruiter who will look at the education, experience and projects for the 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏

[pine sleet]

the evaluation is up to whoever is reading your resume or interviewing you

[open ivy]

So getting past the ATS is overhyped? If a human is actually looking at it than why worry about an ATS beyond basic keywords?

[smoky quest]

people will try to blame everything else before owning their skill issue

[near ocean]

for the ATS you just keep the cv in a nice simple format and include a couple buzzwords and thats it

[pine sleet]

real

[open ivy]

That makes sense.

[smoky quest]

and blaming it on a magical machine that makes it not their fault makes people feel better about it.
It also makes an easy blog post to write about since it's all made up. So I can write anything I want about it on my linkedin feed

[open ivy]

In terms of getting others to listen to my personal projects (which are generally works in progress) networking seems to have a huge edge over applying, as applying results in very very little human interaction.

But other people may be in a different situation?

[smoky quest]

I could tell you more when you post an anonymized version of your resume

[open ivy]

Makes me wonder how does an "average-skilled" person "stand out" early in their career? If they are picking the best and brightest, how would someone who is only "average" get a job?

[pine sleet]

by applying somewhere where other average skilled people apply

[smoky quest]

they would stand out in the remaining jobs that pay less, are less attractive and after all the best jobs are taken

[open ivy]

Yes I am thinking that the gloom and doom stories of even crappy jobs getting tons of applicants are overblown. Also a less attractive tech job does not mean "bad" it just means not a famous company.

[smoky quest]

less attractive could mean bad:

• Less perks
• no remote
• no well stock kitchen
• no flexible hours
• No motivated coworkers
• boring job where you learn nothing
• terrible product not making the world better
• Irascible boss
  ...

Pick any combination 🙂

[white relic]

I work for a very non-famous company in an area of the country where not many tech people want to work. We still get loads of applicants for every opening, many more than we could hope to interview.
But most of them are very low quality.

[open ivy]

How many of them would you say are better than what the "average" tech person could do with some resume coaching? Of those, how many of them would actually accept the offer if given a chance?

[white relic]

Having a decent resume without any glaring errors, relevant degree and at least one side project / internship easily puts you in the top 5%.

Heck just not having any typos in the resume probably puts you in the top 10%.

[open ivy]

Top 5% out of how many applicants?

[white relic]

Depends for how long the opening is posted. Over a hundred, probably.

We don't tend to leave them open indefinitely because the backlog gets to be too much to handle.

[summer roost]

there are more jobs than there are best-and-brightest developers

[white relic]

I should note, although I've mentioned this before and you may remember, that I am not primarily a SWE and I don't hire pure CS grads, although coding is a part of what I hire for.

[vapid jay]

any advice on what this side project should be?

im thinking of doing microcontroller coding

[unreal comet]

Then how come I'm not getting interviews? 😦

[near ocean]

Is your resume all those things?

[unreal comet]

@near ocean I think so. My undergraduate degree was half CS, I have work experience as a SWE, and several side projects.

[smoky quest]

Your resume feels more like scientific development/computation than software engineer. At least your experience/projects make it feel that way
So I would expect less success for swe dev jobs

[unreal comet]

I'm not even getting those interviews though. I'm casting a wide net, and when it's for a less scientific/engineering software job I message the poster to explain that I do have a 60% CS background and have written in a variety of languages/frameworks. I thought they'd at least think "well if he can do that then he can do this", but I guess not. I mean I didn't know any Python before starting my last job and became fluent in it.

[smoky quest]

Each job ad receives thousands of applicants. They don't need to look for reasons to hire you or to bet on you being able to handle a skill you have not demonstrated as they already have thousands of other applicants who have demonstrated the relevant skills

If you want to apply to swe jobs, your resume should feel like a SWE

[vapid jay]

i suggest building a fullstack project that does something useful like a to-do list or a ticket CRUD app, it will display that u can do backend and frontend skills

try doing cs50 web dev course

[unreal comet]

Well what I posted is the result of some other advice to make it more software-y.

[smoky quest]

I can only speak of what I see. I assume it was even less software-y before

[unreal comet]

Okay looking into that thanks.

[near ocean]

what kind of jobs are you applying to

[unreal comet]

One more question about that, on the CS50 course I see these options: 1) If interested in a verified certificate from edX, enroll at cs50.edx.org/web instead.
2) If interested in a professional certificate from edX, enroll at cs50.edx.org/programs/web instead. They seem the same to me, but I'm guessing I want option 2?

[smoky quest]

cs50 is an introduction to CS. That's the first 3months of a 4-5 years degree. It has zero value for jobs

[near ocean]

cs50 is an intro course to programming, its not going to help you

[unreal comet]

I started out applying to Python-centric jobs because that's what I've been doing for 6 years, but recently I started applying for C++ jobs.

[unreal comet]

Well @vapid jay suggested it to do a full stack web dev project, I'll admit I've never done a web dev anything. What do you think?

[unreal comet]

@vapid jay suggested it in order to do a full stack web dev project, but I could go through codeacademy or something else.

The project I'd be able to make is more important than the certificate I imagine, but I thought I'd ask.

[near ocean]

im not convinced any basic beginner web project outweighs the projects you have listed

[smoky quest]

I think they are right.
Do projects related to the job you apply to. If you apply to frontend jobs, do frontend projects. If you apply to backend jobs, do backend projects

[unreal comet]

I'm largely not applying to web dev jobs though.

[smoky quest]

I don't know what you are applying to

[unreal comet]

I've applied to lots of software jobs in the space industry because that's what I was doing last, or other scientific/computational software jobs, desktop application development occasionally

[near ocean]

without knowing much about fintech jobs, your profile seems pretty suited for the more computationally heavy finance jobs

[unreal comet]

Sorry if I'm not helpful with my answers, I'm trying to answer multiple questions, and I'm extremely grateful for the advice.

[smoky quest]

to do the solve the same type of problems?

[unreal comet]

Aren't those all in NYC?

[near ocean]

maybe, i dont know where you are to help further

the first question you need to answer is what kind of job you want
then answer what kind of jobs have you applied to

[vapid jay]

yea he got a lot of python, as to ur question, just enroll to cs50 WEB and do the course, its a good intro to web programming and u build ur own course at the end.

If ur going for finance jobs, then brush up on tableu, python pandas, and SQL.

Lucky for u there is CS50 SQL and a website called keggle where u can learn and practice

Key is personal projects tho

[unreal comet]

Yes for the most part when I'm applying to scientific/computational jobs it's something that is at least similar to something I've done before either in industry or academia. A few times it was the exact same job responsibilities, but I wouldn't hear anything.

[unreal comet]

At first it was scientific/computational software jobs, but as I'm failing to get hired I'm branching out into general SWE roles that I think I could do.

[near ocean]

what level of seniority are the jobs youre applying to

[unreal comet]

For the most part, either jobs that don't list a rank or "senior"

I go for "senior" when it's something in my wheelhouse.

[whole flare]

@unreal comet is there a reason you don't mention your PhD thesis anywhere in your resume?

[unreal comet]

I didn't think it would be this long. I've been ghosted on jobs that are exactly what I've done beat for beat, even after sending callbacks.

[smoky quest]

I see. One thing you could add is to name drop some of the method names in your work experience

[near ocean]

ok that seems in line with your experience
do you have a professional network? anyone from academia or your last job that could help get you to an interview?

[unreal comet]

The title is long, and it's in pure theoretical physics, no software relevance.

[unreal comet]

Unfortunately not really, I wanted to get out of the space industry partly because it's kind of a dead end. Everybody in it (but me) only ever wants to work in space stuff, so that's all they've done and all they know. It's super-niche, and they can't really help you outside of that niche. And all of my grad school people were pure physics, I was the one person with CS/engineering training. I attend local developer meetups but so far it hasn't helped. :/

[tawny tusk]

Can someone please elaborate what topics of math I should concentrate on to deeply understand neural networks?

[unreal comet]

Linear algebra

Multivariable calculus

[vapid jay]

do u have the resources for a masters in cs?

idk if its useful others lmk, but having it in ur cv is pretty good i think,

Also try to build some projects that u would find u would work for in a company, scientific swe right?

build a web app for somthing related to ur field is my advice anyways

[unreal comet]

Are you asking if I have the resources to do a MS in CS or if I have the existing course credit?

[vapid jay]

yea like time and money for it

[unreal comet]

I've considered it. I don't know what it costs or how I'd live during it.

[vapid jay]

ok id suggest building projects then, maybe a C++ app that displays the weather forecast tommorow or for a week

bc building fullstack is the norm basically

[unreal comet]

Yeah I'm working on 3D graphics.

Got a basic software renderer going (up to Blinn-Phong shading, no texture mapping), and I'm starting OpenGL.

[vapid jay]

does it have a gui? somthing the user can interact with?

[unreal comet]

It's the one thing keeping me sane. Well, using OpenGL is so it'll have a GUI, rn CLI only.

I have another large GUI program but unfortunately it's not easy to install, relies on another program and is highly specific to my monitor's ICC profile (it was a hobby project, I wasn't trying to share it with anybody)

[vapid jay]

cli for now is fine for now, i think u just need more time on finishing ur projects and youll be ready to apply for more jobs

[unreal comet]

https://gitlab.com/JacobOost/softwarerenderer

Here's the one I'm talking about. But yeah I'd like to have something the user can interact with, and it sounds like you're saying it should be a web app so that they don't have to install or compile anything?

Thanks for your kind advice. Things are difficult so any ray of sunshine is appreciated.

[vapid jay]

yea basically, recruiters dont have much time, and anything visual is a huge plus since its simple to see

[vapid jay]

keep ur head up, u got a phd so u must be smart lol

[unreal comet]

Ha!

It never feels that way

[obsidian osprey]

how can I show to someone my whole code?

[peak halo]

!paste

[inner wren]

Pasting large amounts of code

If your code is too long to fit in a codeblock in Discord, you can paste your code here:
https://paste.pythondiscord.com/

After pasting your code, save it by clicking the Paste! button in the bottom left, or by pressing CTRL + S. After doing that, you will be navigated to the new paste's page. Copy the URL and post it here so others can see it.

[vapid jay]

i do engineering and i feel dumb somtimes lol, once u get the certificate u make it

[peak halo]

(remember that this is the career discussion channel, so all messages should relate to that)

[vapid lynx]

wdym with career discussion, like setting out your own career from beginner to expert?

[peak halo]

It tends to mostly be about career advice, and to a lesser extent about business trends

[vapid lynx]

ooh, k, thx for answering

[silver jetty]

gng motivate me to keep learning python (am on my 3rd day streak)

[open ivy]

If you are getting interviews on a semi-regular basis keep up the good work applying. If not, then it may not be a good strategy.

"Is it as simple as just adding people on LinkedIn?"

This is an example where networking is misunderstood. It is made out to be a particular task and process. In reality, it is a goal.

Wouldn't it be nice to have an audience for your personal and/or work projects? To have others care about your weekly progress? And visa-versa, to keep up with someone's progress and ask them questions? If you have that, some of these people would love to work with you and once in a while their company will have an opening...

So how would you find such a community? In the past most people would just use their social instincts to "automatically" preform very complex actions to get to this goal. However, these instincts are hijacked by the modern world. For example, LinkedIn asked me to follow Andrew Ng because he is doing AI. However, he has 2 million followers. This means that investing time in him will not yield any relationship unless I get very, very lucky. Another example: sports makes a ton of money because people are putting an enormous amount of time and energy following celebrities. That means less time following each-other. And then people wonder why everyone is so lonely...

So the general idea is to play the small game for both applications and networking: Try to find people and companies in your field that are not famous. Meetups are good also.

[wraith harbor]

It's normal for motivation to come and go, but discipline and sticking to a routine helps you keep going when you don't feel motivated

Are you getting interviews? If you've sent a lot of apps and aren't getting interviews, you might need to tweak your resume

[silver jetty]

i only leanred about list tuples dictionary sets , if statement , while loops , defining a function etc yk the real basic. I wanna get into discord bot developing and web development lemme also add am 16 so my small brain is struggling a lot 😢 ✌️

[next plover]

you are ahead of most 16 year olds dont stress

[fringe sphinx]

Networking just means: talk to humans. LinkedIn is terrible networking. Instead: go to meetups. Join a club. Talk to friends and family... ask people about how their jobs are, show interest in other people: don't make it transactional (about getting a job) but rather make it conversational.

[peak palm]

hey guys

im using programiz to practise

[real trench]

Ok so yeah, it's me back again!

We discuss about career here right?

[near ocean]

this sounds more like open source than a more traditional job
What do you mean it'd be nice to have people care about my work progress lol, i cant exactly share that online

[open ivy]

I think the basics of work can be shared safely, with a little caution.

Personal projects can be shared more freely (and someone should have personal projects going on at some level even when working).

[unreal comet]

This is very industry and employer dependent. At my last job there wasn't much I could say publicly.

[open ivy]

I think casual convo is a bit safer than a blog. And always have side projects at some level because of this.

[vapid jay]

is it difficult to change field in the future once your fairly experienced on one of them
like can i start out with web dev then switch to game dev?