career-advice

[icy pagoda]

well, "work experience", you were a part of the organization contributing to OSS stuff

might even be way more beneficial than a random company since people might recognize it

[vast shoal]

I get the impression we hire a lot of our interns.

[near ocean]

Companies dont hire unpaid interns to groom them, they want cheap labour, the cheapest labour

[kindred oyster]

i mean the companies that do that arent even worth applying for in the first place

[near ocean]

The question is, does this unpaid internship offer a better work experience than oss or not

[kindred oyster]

i mean , its better than having no experience

[near ocean]

Both options are better than that

[smoky quest]

If it was not done as part of an internship or job, then it was not a professional experience. Nothing wrong with that, but your main currency is trust here.
Anything that challenge how truthful you are will put into question everything else

[vast shoal]

I think what recursive said still applies. It's still an environment more similar to the one you'd be in when you're a paid employee, and you can still put it in the work experience section of your resume.

[kindred oyster]

but i dont think i have heard an interviewer care if the internship experience on the resume was paid or not

[near ocean]

Im not sure people are willing to admit they were not paid in their internships tbf

[kindred oyster]

true xd

[vast shoal]

You don't have to mention it, and I think few people are going to ask.

[smoky quest]

No one would care. What matters is what you do with that internship

[icy pagoda]

are you not truthful there but claiming it was "work experience".
also, you might actually be much better off joining OSS orgs with major repositories than working unpaid at a random company your future employer will not have heard of

if the company is famous and/or known for being selective, it might reflect positively even if it's unpaid

[smoky quest]

You have lost the interviewer as soon as you have to argue about why you should count it as a professional experience.

[icy pagoda]

not in an interview; i meant during general selection/shortlisting

[smoky quest]

who is doing the general selection/shortlisting?

[icy pagoda]

an employer is more likely to shortlist you for an interview if they see that you have worked with an organization/repository they know of, rather than a random company they have never heard of

[smoky quest]

not at all

[icy pagoda]

and your resume won't mark it as professional experience, it'll simply use "work experience"

[icy pagoda]

well, I would have and I know plenty others who would do the same. since you know of the repository/have used it before - you can also trust the standards of their codebase

it will set a baseline of the candidate's knowledge too

[smoky quest]

how many internship programs have you established? How many interns have you trained or hired?

[icy pagoda]

like 1? in an academic setting too, was an assistant for the research intern programs in summer
haven't done it in HR ever for corporate

[kindred oyster]

i think you are giving too much value to the brand name rather than comparing the actual experience they gained

[icy pagoda]

oh, you do check the actual experience too ofc. it shows on their OSS profile - their exact contributions

[kindred oyster]

so you would rather take a person who has contirbuted to a famous repo rather than a candidate who has actually had a real office work experience ?

[white relic]

What is an "OSS profile"? Does everyone have one?

[icy pagoda]

github/gitlab in that case

[smoky quest]

Yes, and don't take it the wrong way, but it shows.

Having had lunch at the cafeteria of Apple will not have a stronger impact than what you would have done at an unknown company for an internship.

Try to think from the other side's perspective:

• These people were in your shoes not too long ago. They know what you are going through to find internships. They also have a professional network.
• These people who will look at your resume are familiar with the FSF, pysf, ASF, gsoc or CNCF. They know very well you are bullshitting if you claim an internship from the ASF
• Internships are worse than jobs. We get thousands of applicants in DAYS. It's insane.
• Due to the combination of the above, the reviewer/interviewer will have seen it all. From the chatgpt help to people stretching the truth, to people having people on the call helping to cheat or even other people to take interviews for them

So the brand does not matter and what matters is what you did at the internship, even if the company is unknown. Why? Because they are not contracting your previous employer, they are going to work with you and thus care above all about your skills

And to add on to the previous point, because of the cheaters and variations, there is a huge emphasis on trust. It's safer to reject a potentially good candidate than take a chance on someone who turns out to be a dud.
So anything that make someone doubt about you will put everything into question (ie. if you lie on something, you likely lied on other parts).

So it's far better to be honest and have great projects than try to pass them as professional experience

[white relic]

Not all open source projects are on github, and not all contributions appear on the contributor's public profile, especially if they contributed in a professional capacity.
To say nothing of the fact I don't spend enough time per résumé to review github contributions for everyone not already shortlisted

[smoky quest]

GIven the amount of applicants, you can assume the first pass at filtering candidates have decisions made in 30-45s. So you should not assume anyone will click on any link. Your resume should stand on its own

[icy pagoda]

I understand, am not tbh - was just trying to understand the perspective here.

I did not mean lunch at the cafeteria of Apple - the actual experience would probably be detailed in their resume too. This is the same for almost all candidates since no one's going to claim "lunch".

In this case though, I did assume they would be contributing to some real work during their duration of unpaid internship in either case.

If an experienced reviewer instantly understands whether the candidate has done real work AND trusts their own ability to do so with certainty, sure - it might not make much of a difference. They'll figure out the exact details either way (assuming experience does this).

However, would you really look down upon someone who contributed to a repository you have used, with provable contributions and with 6 months less work experience compared to someone who worked internships at companies you do not know at all.

it's not "open source > unpaid internship" here, it's "why is unpaid internship at a random company > provable open source"

[icy pagoda]

sure, you don't really count low OSS profiles against them either.
also yes, even if no one actually follows through the links, any contribution to public open source with a link to repos can be opened during the actual interview so candidates can't really bs their way through actually linking their contributions

[smoky quest]

I did not mean lunch at the cafeteria of Apple - the actual experience would probably be detailed in their resume too. This is the same for almost all candidates since no one's going to claim "lunch".

The point stands. What matters is what you do, not where you got it.
People confuse appearance with substance.

If an experienced reviewer instantly understands whether the candidate has done real work AND trusts their own ability to do so with certainty, sure - it might not make much of a difference. They'll figure out the exact details either way (assuming experience does this).

We have to be careful to not fall into the trap of constructing specific scenarii. We can construct a scenario where an intern is paid at apple and work on the next revolutionary product. But we could also construct a scenario where an intern is paid at apple to do nothing for 3 months.

What matters does not change: it's what you do and your impact

However, would you really look down upon someone who contributed to a repository you have used, with provable contributions and with 6 months less work experience compared to someone who worked internships at companies you do not know at all.

This is about the 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏 .
The repository only matters to me if it is related to the company (ex: the elasticsearch company will care a lot about people who contribute to apache lucene).
Beyond that, what matters is the nature and impact of your contributions. And assuming equal contributions, the difference is someone doing a real internship will have seen what it is to work with a product manager, with a team in the same office and a devops team. What it is to go to the all hands and general ways of collaborating at a company

[smoky quest]

Here is a simple question I can ask an intern but not an OSS contributor:

• Tell me about a time you had a production outage and how did you go about it? Was there a post mortem?

Chances are an OSS project will not face this because they do not provide services

[icy pagoda]

yeah makes sense tbh

[near ocean]

What are the charges an unpaid intern has faced this though

[smoky quest]

the exact same ones than a paid internship

[near ocean]

Why would an unpaid intern be able to work on the same things a paid intern would

[smoky quest]

why wouldn't they?

[near ocean]

Because theyre not paid, theyre basically a random person off the street, why would they have access to the same stuff a paid employee would

[kindred oyster]

because you are still an intern ?

[smoky quest]

being unpaid does not mean they are basically a random person off the street

[radiant vortex]

I'm first hand proof that they do 🤷‍♂️

I still did an interview, signed an NDA

[smoky quest]

this is a weird statement to equate them

[radiant vortex]

I'd like to think I wasn't just a random person of the street

[near ocean]

Anecdotes dont really hold weight
Why would a "volunteer" have the same access in a company than one of its paid employees

[radiant vortex]

are you saying I was an exception?

[smoky quest]

why do you keep on trying to look down on them?
No one said they are the exception nor that they are a volunteer off the street

[near ocean]

Im not trying to look down on them bro, jesus
Theyre unpaid internships, theyre being exploited
Im suggesting that maybe there are better things to do with their time and not to give into desperation

[white relic]

companies generally do either paid or unpaid internships, according to whether the company wants / can pay.
a company that employs unpaid interns isn't necessarily doing anything different with them than one that can pay them

[smoky quest]

how are they exploited?

[near ocean]

They're working for free?

[smoky quest]

and how are they exploited?

[near ocean]

They are working for free is how

[white relic]

interns are always an investment in the future. Very few people are capable of contributing to a company's bottom line in the first 6 months of working there especially with no or negligible prior experience

[smoky quest]

how would that count as exploitation?
And why would that result in a different set of 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏 than a paid internship?

[near ocean]

Unpaid interns are not an investment, you have to put in money to invest in things

[vast shoal]

An unpaid intern is not free workforce to the company. They still cost money, just not the salary you'd have paid them.

[icy pagoda]

it's time in this case ig

[near ocean]

They're preying on people who are desperate to get something on a CV, how is that not exploitation, are you serious?

[smoky quest]

Can you rephrase it without a circular argument?

[near ocean]

🤨

[icy pagoda]

most internships are often paid tbh. it's often the person's own choice to go for an unpaid one due to needing them quick enough/idk loving the work too much

[white relic]

All interns are a drain on company resources that could otherwise be put towards more productive employees.

[near ocean]

I guess we're done here if you dont see this as exploitative

[vast shoal]

You're assuming that they're being preyed upon. Being preyed upon = exploitation. You're assuming what you're trying to show.

[white relic]

I was definitely a drain on my first employer for like at least a year and a half (tbf I switched roles once in the middle)

[icy pagoda]

also technically an unpaid intern could just walk off so there's some benefits from intern side too

[near ocean]

Its obvious that people who consider unpaid internships are doing so out of desperation
Otherwise they would go for volunteer positions

Like, this is common sense stuff but anyway its not related to the topic so i'll drop it

[smoky quest]

then it should be easy to articulate it?

[wraith harbor]

I kind of disagree, desperate people can't afford an unpaid internship, it's really more of a privilege if you can spend months of time without receiving income

[near ocean]

I have articulated it, if you dont get it thats on you

[smoky quest]

circular arguments aren't articulation.
But that's up to you. I wish you to find the paid internship you are looking for

[near ocean]

If you have the skills and qualifications to get an paid position would you ever consider an unpaid position?

[near ocean]

Im already employed thanks, and getting paid for it

[smoky quest]

Sometimes unpaid internships are entertained because of what they entail and the perceived value for a career over another paid internship but with lower outcomes

[near ocean]

Sometimes being never?

[smoky quest]

do we really have to lower ourselves to that level?

[near ocean]

The people asking about unpaid internships dont have piles of cash to sit on during the internship and arent doing it out of the kindness of their heart
They think it will help them get a paid position in the (very near) future and are desperate

[icy pagoda]

picking an unpaid internship for perceived outcomes over a paid one sounds like a huge risk; the company/institution should have a record of justifying such a risk

[smoky quest]

That's just projection.
Alright am out as the discussion is lacking in arguments

[smoky quest]

In the grand scheme of things not so much.
An internship is 3-6 months at most.
A career is ~40 years.

I would always recommend to prioritize the content of the internship over how much you are paid during it. In addition your compensation during your internship has no bearing on your compensation for your first job.

[wraith harbor]

A paid internship is obviously better I just don't think an unpaid one is that bad especially if it's while you're still in college

[near ocean]

Why are you considering an unpaid internship? Can you get a paid internship? Are you doing it for volunteering reasons?

[near ocean]

Are there better options?

[icy pagoda]

sure, imagine if you end up there because you liked the role/work and then realized later that it didn't happen

3-6 months lost for 0 outcomes and was unpaid too

[smoky quest]

and?

[wraith harbor]

I guess there are for some people and not for others. I know of a company in my area that pays ~50k for a summer internship that's obviously a really good option. I only ever managed to get 1 internship while I was in college and it was unpaid

[icy pagoda]

is that not enough of a risk to you?

[near ocean]

Why did you take the unpaid internship? Could you not get any other paid internships?

[smoky quest]

This is a risk that pertains to both paid and unpaid internships. You bear that risk equally when you sign up for the internship.

Though we could also talk about how taking an unpaid internship in the area of your dream yield you an extra 20k$/year on your first job and how it would not have happened if you had been with that other paid internship that is on a slightly less interesting area

[near ocean]

(did you consider OSS or other options)

[wraith harbor]

I was kinda a bad student and also was too lazy to consider other options

[near ocean]

Did you struggle financially at the time?

[wraith harbor]

No

[near ocean]

If you did struggle financially would you still do the unpaid internship with the hopes that it helps you in the future?

[radiant vortex]

Are you saying that contributing to an OSS project would hold the same weight as work experience?

[wraith harbor]

If I was struggling financially I would probably have had to work like retail or something and not get the internship, and then maybe when I applied to jobs I would've had a harder time and been forced to go into retail type work again and then maybe never gotten into software at all

[vast shoal]

I guess lots of people don't struggle financially while taking unpaid internships, so apparently there are a lot of people taking unpaid internships who are not desperate.

[near ocean]

Maybe
Im not convinced unpaid interns get to do anything close to resembling a real work environment
For all i know they just have them fetch coffees all day

[wraith harbor]

There's definitely something to be said about unpaid positions perpetuating income inequality

[radiant vortex]

From my own experiences, I can for sure I did actual work in the environment, with the mentorship of other employees - I'm not sure where you're getting this impression that unpaid internships are unable to do any proper work?

[kindred oyster]

is it possible that you have a fixed image of what unpaid interns do and you are not willing to change it ?

[radiant vortex]

And I don't think I'm the exception here

[near ocean]

At the end of the day people can just write whatever they want on their CV, whether they were paid or not, whether they did actual work or not

[radiant vortex]

What gave you this impression?

[near ocean]

Why were you unpaid?

[kindred oyster]

are there any bad companies that pray on desperate candidates ? sure

does that mean unpaid interns are not good enough as paid ones ? ehh

[radiant vortex]

That's just what the company offered, I don't know what the reasoning was behind it, but the type of work they did I found interesting and they offered me a job afterwards🤷‍♂️

[kindred oyster]

in a paid internship they have more leverage to exploit you because they can just say " we pay you tto do this " xd

[near ocean]

Im doubtful the employer would treat unpaid interns the same as paid interns, not that unpaid interns are worse devs

[kindred oyster]

why would he pay some interns and not others ?

[near ocean]

Because they can? If people are desperate enough to want to break into the field they'd bite

[smoky quest]

that will definitely help hiring them at the end of the internship or with that recruiting pipeline at their school!

[kindred oyster]

if we takling about they can or they cannot

then sure , some weird X company will not allow their unpaid interns to work on the same stuff as paid ones

but you cant generalise that because tthat just wont be true

[white relic]

Are there companies that offer both paid and unpaid internships? That seems unusual.

[vast shoal]

If you take on an unpaid intern and don't use them for anything other than fetching coffee, you've got yourself a coffee fetching machine.
If you take on an unpaid intern and train them to do something useful, you're investing a lot of time and resources into them aside from the salary, so throwing all that away at the end of the internship if there were no problems with the intern is completely wasteful.

Neither of these scenarios seem like very good ideas from the employer's perspective.

[icy pagoda]

a free coffee fetching machine?

[vast shoal]

Yeah, you can do that, I just find it hard to believe a lot of companies (let alone most) would bother with something stupid like that.

[icy pagoda]

well, the intern will prolly quit too but it's not exactly a bad outcome for the company

[vast shoal]

It's bad PR if nothing else.

[near ocean]

I get that if you have an unpaid intern and teach them the same way you would a paid intern its an investment, what i dont get is why not pay the intern to begin with

If you "cant afford it" what makes you think you'll be able to afford them in a full time role?

[kindred oyster]

You actually are investing money when u train the employee , the stipend is just extra amount on the bill which the company decides to pay or not

[vast shoal]

I think we do pay all our interns, so I don't know for sure, but if I were to speculate, it seems like something you could get away with cutting corners on. You don't know if the intern will work out or not ahead of time, you do have to pay the cost of training them, but you don't HAVE to pay them.

[near ocean]

Not paying someone because you can get away with it sounds very much exploitative

[icy pagoda]

the person is also investing in the company by doing their work the best they can. and apparently their best is evaluated to a net 0 because training costs

[near ocean]

Can't have unpaid internships in the UK or the EU and the only kind allowed in the UK is temporary shadowing/observation roles which definitely dont meet the criteria for working in a professional setting

[icy pagoda]

which, well isn't really the fault of the company tbh, just the person for agreeing with it when they accepted it

[icy pagoda]

unpaid inernships are rare in general i feel

you might just end up getting a paid internship after building your profile via OSS and other methods in the domain you love

[wraith harbor]

I remember someone here once said that in some places it's common to pay to get into an internship

[icy pagoda]

ig the uncertainty does exist if this doesn't happen though

[near ocean]

That also sounds exploitative tbh

[vast shoal]

I mean, it's less advantageous for the intern and more advantageous for the company, but both sides are paying costs and receiving benefits from the arrangement in both cases.

I think what EddieTheYeti said about how this propagates income inequality and discourages social mobility is perhaps the most unethical aspect.

[white relic]

Interns are virtually always net negative, even unpaid. 0 is generous. You have to spend resources training them and checking their work. Chances are a skilled person could have just done the work in less time than it took the intern

this is an absurd generalization

[icy pagoda]

you are claiming that the skilled person will spend more time in checking the intern's work than implementing it from scratch? and this is virtually "always"?

[white relic]

companies employ interns for workforce development and risk mitigation, not because they are an untapped well of cheap labor.

[vast shoal]

I think it's very probable.

[white relic]

In my experience, it is most likely.
It takes time to become a productive employee.

[icy pagoda]

and the baseline for a "skilled person" here are also recent hires in the company.
a company whose baseline hires and interns have such a massive difference in their skill levels is either epic or overestimates it's skilled force

[white relic]

That's also why you don't give interns projects in the critical path

[vast shoal]

I mean, it's true even for new hires.

[white relic]

Yes, new hires also are unproductive for some time.

It's rare to get someone who can hit the ground running and become net positive in the first month or two.

[icy pagoda]

fair then, if the ssumption here is company's least experienced workforce massively outskills the intern to the point where giving the intern any work slows the company down
it's simply done as a requirement for hires

[white relic]

^

[vast shoal]

You mean least experienced productive workforce?

[icy pagoda]

the recent hires who are paid/full time employees

[vast shoal]

Like I said, the recent hires don't necessarily massively outskill interns, but all new people are unproductive and a net negative for some time after they start.

[white relic]

dementati and I both just said that new hires are not massively more productive than interns, no?

[icy pagoda]

so they are a net negative too and still paid?

[vast shoal]

Yes. Because they eventually become productive.

[white relic]

To give them a chance to show that they can become productive without taking on the bigger risk of hiring them permanently?

[icy pagoda]

yeah makes sense. how much is the time estimate of eventual normally from what yall observed

[white relic]

Sure, something like that.

[vast shoal]

At my company, maybe 2-3 months, if I were to make a very informal guess.

[white relic]

That's consistent with my observations

[vast shoal]

For an actual hire, which are much more thoroughly vetted than interns.

Some people are more competent and learn faster than others.

It's probably not a waste, the people who display better work ethic tend to get more opportunities down the line.

[near ocean]

Everyone's paying costs tho, im paying them right now, these 8hours of work arent cheap

[icy pagoda]

honestly makes sense from the company's perspective for unpaid interns then tbh

[kindred oyster]

the person is investing their time because they are getting the proffessional work experience for it
they are not working for free (for no return)

[vast shoal]

I don't mean "ethic" in a philosophical sense, I just mean more important responsibilities are entrusted with people who seem like they can handle it, and those people get rewarded to motivate them.

[white relic]

There's other factors, like the money for the internship program might not be from the same bucket you pay your regular employees from, that's not uncommon

[icy pagoda]

i mean, it's less related to the pay and more of the standards of the people they are taking in
the assumption here is the standard for taking an intern is so low that all the work an intern does could just be added to another full time employee and it would have been completed faster and with less effort

so it's a straight negative for the company

[vast shoal]

Again, that is the case for all new people, including paid full hires.

[near ocean]

What happened to developing a workforce

[icy pagoda]

yeah and the company does need to hire people to replace old talent/expand, so they do need to continue bearing the negative costs - some just choose a safer bet

[white relic]

but it does mean the intern's bargaining power is limited, no?
Maybe you should form an unpaid intern's union?

[wraith harbor]

Only schmucks hire juniors, just poach all the 3+ YoE people from those companies instead

[kindred oyster]

just use GPT

[white relic]

I mean, it's a legitimate strategy. There are companies that do that.

Somebody has to hire the noobs

[kindred oyster]

so you see the value in them only if you pay them a stipend ?

what would you choose ? a company who doesnt pay you anything but gives you great exposure to how everything works in real world ? or a company who gives you a stipend but doesnt let you do anything serious

[near ocean]

Get you a company that can do both?

[kindred oyster]

i mean in ideal world yeah

[white relic]

Not all companies invest in workforce development

[near ocean]

Bills don't accept exposure as a payment method

[icy pagoda]

they don't trust their screening of interns enough to take the risk here, the potential was simply judged to be low but to still give them a chance

[kindred oyster]

you are an intern , not a full time employee

[vast shoal]

Do you think a law that requires interns to be paid would be a good idea?

[near ocean]

Are interns supposed to not eat or sleep under a roof?

Something something this isnt exploitation

[kindred oyster]

that has nothing to do with the fact that they are not a "real employee" for the company just yet

the company is litearlly spending their own money to teach you stuff

[icy pagoda]

it's very often both tbh

[near ocean]

How much better are juniors compared to interns and are juniors allowed to pay bills or should they also settle for exposure

Remember the difference between a junior and an intern is literally a couple months

When in their tenure is a software dev eligible for pay (in cash not exposure)

[kindred oyster]

then just join as a junior

juniors also go through a training period just like interns except juniors WILL be converted to full time employees

in case of interns , you dont know if they will be with you after you spend so much money on them or not

read what i replied to first please

[near ocean]

Its not a guarantee that you'll be made permanent, probation periods can be failed
Should we not pay juniors until probation ends?

[icy pagoda]

the actual intention of the company isn't to exploit apparently

juniors are simply judged to have high enough potential from their screening that they are worth investing in since they might become good some day

the intern here was judged to have much lower potential and a much higher risk to invest in so they just chose not to (unless proven otherwise during work later ig)
both of them are net negatives, one just has higher risk associated

[digital fjord]

while I haven't come across unpaid internships outside of high school-targeted stuff, generally the distinction is more so in the workload. A junior does whatever the company needs to be done, whereas interns generally get more control over what they actually do, since the point is for the intern to learn.

[near ocean]

Does risk of investment correlate with the candidate's potential?

[icy pagoda]

does it not?

[near ocean]

So are paid internships riskier? Are they only afforded to candidates with great potential?

[kindred oyster]

Its not a guarantee that you'll be made permanent, probation periods can be failed
if the employee is bad , i mean that has nothign to do with what we are arguing here though, an intern can also be a bad intern

whereas an internship is like an "independent contract" with no obligation whatsoever that you have to join

Should we not pay juniors until probation ends?
why not ? they are going to be full time employees and if any junior willingly decides to quit during t he training period , they will be made to pay back the money spent on trianing them so the company doesnt take that big of a risk

[near ocean]

Does that also mean unpaid interns don't have great potential if unpaid internships are lower risk?

[white relic]

Fwiw, my company pays all our interns, when we can spare resources to have them at all, even high school.
But we don't do it out of the goodness of our hearts, or because we have money to burn; we get funding from the local government specifically for workforce development

[icy pagoda]

second, the company did decide to go more negative by paying you - only reason to do that is with higher potential, right?

[near ocean]

It sounds like youre saying unpaid interns arent as good, which is what people accused me of earlier lmao

[icy pagoda]

that's about it, yes from what i can see too

[near ocean]

Ok just clarifying

[kindred oyster]

dont see where you get that conclusion from

[vast shoal]

I'm not 100% sure what the actual reason for why we pay our interns, but I assume it's because we want to attract higher quality interns.

[icy pagoda]

#career-advice message

[near ocean]

Juniors only become permanent employees if they pass probation and having a junior "pay the company back because they quit early" is the scammiest of practices

[icy pagoda]

so if a company does choose to pay it's intern, they are betting on higher quality, yes

[icy pagoda]

There is a "pay the company back if you leave within X months" practice too tbf

[digital fjord]

Yeah, in germany, an unpaid internship is a mandatory part of your education, and we've indeed had people troubled in this very channel due to being given an unreasonable workload.
But usually you can just quit if you feel your internship is unproductive (or here it'd almost always be for a bounded time, so you just don't refresh the contract after the 3-6 months).

[kindred oyster]

Juniors only become permanent employees if they pass probation

and it is usually the case that most people do make it through probation

pay the company back because they quit early

why ? the company invested so much money on you to teach you and after learning everything you just quit ? and company takes a hit for no real reason

[vast shoal]

I think it's fair that the latter is a risk the company has to take on.

[near ocean]

This comes off as boot licking, sorry if thats offensive
Companies arent some great saviour you should be grateful towards, its literally an exchange of services

[kindred oyster]

yeah thats why you dont have to pay everything they spent on it

you have to pay back a percentage

[vast shoal]

Where is this done?

[kindred oyster]

also you dont have to pay if you fail probation or anything

[near ocean]

Nowhere with decent employment laws

[kindred oyster]

in most mass recruiting companies

[digital fjord]

isn't the point of probation that you can quit or be fired at any time with no notice or consequences?

[icy pagoda]

only in companies who aren't confident of their full time employee screening either lol

[kindred oyster]

like , they are not making you pay if you fail , they make you pay if you be a dick to them

[digital fjord]

fresh juniors are some of the most financially vulnerable categories of employees, pressuring them in this way is certainly scummy.

[vast shoal]

That does sound like it opens the doors for exploitation. You can create unreasonable working conditions under the threat of having to pay if the person quits.

[near ocean]

Quitting early isnt being a dick lol

[kindred oyster]

its not good but it is how it is 🤷

[vast shoal]

Earlier you made it sound like you agreed with this practice, though.

[kindred oyster]

i agreed to the unpaid interns , not this

[near ocean]

Wouldnt you want all interns to be paid?

[kindred oyster]

yea

[near ocean]

But you agree with the practice of unpaid interns

[kindred oyster]

im saying they are not obliged to pay since they are already investing money into you

but in an ideal world , you should be paid

[vast shoal]

Even if it's not allowed, similar things are done. My spouse was subjected to something quite similar to this through a shady education program.

[near ocean]

We dont have unpaid interns in the EU
Its exploitative, theres no debate about it

[vast shoal]

That school is being prosecuted now, though.

[vast shoal]

Yes, we do.

[near ocean]

If its one thing governments do right is be slow af

We shouldnt* have unpaid internships in the EU

[torn salmon]

unpaid interns weren't filtered as hard by the free competition from the competitive talent market

[near ocean]

Being an unpaid intern is getting filtered

All the 10x interns are getting paid

[vast shoal]

EU directives means member countries have a 2 year time limit (or something like that) to adjust national laws to comply.

So it's not really dragging their feet.

[icy pagoda]

so the original question was if you were offered an unpaid internship at a not-so-famous company on a desired role

you should choose to do the internship instead of contributing to OSS like say, svelte (for web dev) or pytorch/pytorch3D (for ML/HPC) or similar popular library in your domain and will be viewed favorably over the other candidates (who went the OSS route)

for the perspective of being better hired later because you have professional experience

[vast shoal]

There's also typically quite a lot of room for interpretation about what kind of national law is compliant, and that may have to be debated in the EU courts for a long time before some final decision is reached.

[vast shoal]

Or you just do both.

[icy pagoda]

during the same duration sounds p hectic

[near ocean]

Wont you have to find a real job that pays as well?

[icy pagoda]

if you're at the intern crossroad stage, that's usually for later

[torn salmon]

btw, just wanted some opinions on my own career planning. I graduated with CS bachelor and have been doing tech compliance consulting at a big 4 for a year now. the job is assessing management controls of IT systems and compliance to regulations. I've been thinking of getting a masters degree in CS to get back into software field, am i making a wrong move at this stage of the "AI revolution"?

personally i'm not technically strong enough to go for experienced roles, and i cant go for graduate roles because of the graduation window has passed

[white relic]

An MSCS won't be a bad decision for any reason to do with AI.

[white relic]

Have you tried? I wouldn't rule anything out preemptively.

Paying out of pocket for a master's in the hopes that it will get you back into the same field you did your bachelor's in does seem like a little bit of a risk

[icy pagoda]

i thought grad school is normally no cost/paid with stipends for assistantships

[torn salmon]

yeah i have tried applying but no luck so far. tbh the CS job market in my area(sydney) isn't as large. the "Junior roles" generally require 2-3 years of experience which i have none hh

[white relic]

Often if you're doing grad school as your main thing, but Michaelwho already has a "real" job, and probably wants to keep that income stream while studying?

[torn salmon]

I'm planning to either do a master locally(in sydney) while keep the current job like you said, or go to UK(imperial) for a master (which means forgoing my job)

[icy pagoda]

with a part time masters? makes sense
keeping current job does sound safer to me ngl

[near ocean]

MSc at Imperial would be great but the UK is expensive and imperial even more so

[radiant vortex]

okay yeah, that's going to be suuuper expensive

[torn salmon]

exactly i will be paying 40k for one year of tuition and it's just not sure if the costs will outweigh the return. if i'll be even getting a job after that..

[radiant vortex]

does that 40k factor in travel and accommodation costs?

[torn salmon]

nope, that 40k GBP is just tuition alone.

[near ocean]

Add another 30k for accommodation and food

Maybe 30k is a lot actually

The upside is the MSc is 1 year

[icy pagoda]

70k for a MSc after leaving current job is a decently big risk

[torn salmon]

30k is similar to my estimation

[near ocean]

Imperial is a great college but its also half way across the world
Why not somewhere closer?

Also, a masters isnt an automatic dev job, you'll need to do some self learning, have you started learning python/other langs?

Since you already have a job, you could try applying this knowledge on the job

[desert gust]

what is going on here

[torn salmon]

I did my bachelor at UNSW, there are some options in my city already. what other places would you recommend? I'm not considering US atm.

[desert gust]

is unsw a good place to
go

[near ocean]

Im in the UK and studied here, dont really know of any other unis abroad

Dont have many aussies here either i dont think

[torn salmon]

I'm more or less just the level of an average CS bachelor graduate~ could do some full stack dev and generic tools. I guess it comes down to my risk appetite whether im willing to risk it while still young.. thanks for the inputs

[fringe sphinx]

What's the "risk" part of this?

[torn salmon]

mainly this, and plus the uncertainty around how the software world will unfold with AI

[torn salmon]

^

[formal cave]

hey there guys

[hearty island]

LET'S FUCKING GO, BLACKSTONE INTERVIEW OTW

5 INTERVIEWS SINCE THE 23RD OF MAY, VAMOS!

[formal cave]

I mean if anyone among you can clarify me this about CSE or CS. I mean i will have to enter university with any one of this subjects. Can u tell me what's the main purpose which a CSE and CS engineers make diff?

[near ocean]

Ban AI shit in the workplace, i already deal with enough human "intelligence"

I dont understand how everyone was so quick to pop chatgpt/copilot/whatever into their workflow

[hearty island]

bang, six interviews

https://tenor.com/view/kendrick-lamar-kdot-superbowl-super-bowl-superbowl-eagles-gif-6365702152647880921

[vast shoal]

Cause I don't want to do unnecessary work.

[near ocean]

But i dont want to review AI code

[peak halo]

it's sometimes faster to give an LLM some code and ask it to refactor it in a specifc way, and confirm that it's correct, than it is to do that refactor manually.

[vast shoal]

I review it myself before I submit the PR

Also, I don't care what you want, just do your job

LLMs haven't changed the code I output, just how I output it.

[near ocean]

Im not having that experience tbh, im seeing full on obvious chatgpt snippets in code review, no one is careful enough with it, it feels like theyre too proud of using llms, anyway

[balmy spade]

You rarely review code? Is this for personal projects or a professional setting?

Objectively frightening. Thank you for the answer.

[vast shoal]

I'll review the code for what it is, whether it was copy-pasted from ChatGPT or not. I haven't seen code quality decrease at my workplace since people started using LLMs.

If I did, I'd bring it up with the team and discuss it, but I can't really imagine my coworkers letting themselves go to that point.

The purpose of the code review is to share knowledge. Sometimes people make bad design decisions because they don't know something that I do. Sometimes they're unaware of some library or tool that makes a particular task much easier. It has nothing to do with trust.

[outer elk]

I think i might become a Software Engineer

I was thinking UTD

[vast shoal]

Sorry you have such unprofessional colleagues I guess.

I've never experienced anything like that at the places I've worked so far.

But it does seem like the issue isn't that code reviews imply lack of trust, but rather that code reviews can be unhelpful in a workplace with a bad social environment.

[hearty island]

holy shit, that interview with societe generale was nice

[true harness]

it's not really about trust. everyone makes mistakes, and assuming that you or your teammates won't is just silly. and as dementati mentioned, they are opportunities to learn more about the codebase or share knowledge

[true harness]

bugs that don't cause errors will slip through. things like, "does this do what the ticket wants" can't be caught by automation

[balmy mural]

My team adds everyone to every PR (7 devs). You don't actually have to review the PRs you're added onto, but I've personally found it very informative to regularly read other people's code, as well as see comments left by colleagues. Over the past year there's been a separate round of PRs where the tech leads of each team review all the code that goes into a release if they have the capacity for it. Feedback from all teams have been positive and that it has significantly improved code quality across all teams, as well as standardise the codebase between teams.
No one makes philosophical comments on design decisions, except for sometimes asking why a thing was done in a certain way. Which tends to be another good learning experience for anyone lookking at the PR, or leads to identifying an issue with how it was implemented (normally performance related) and a better alternative being suggested

[true harness]

as i said, it's not about trust. no one is perfect. you and your teammates will make mistakes

[balmy mural]

I fully trust my team mates. That doesn't mean they're robots who make 0 mistakes

If I click approve on something that breaks in prod , I am just as responsible for the code that went in as the person who wrote it. So I'll stick to being thorough in my code reviews

[balmy spade]

Yes.

[balmy mural]

Me? Not yet. My tech lead? Yes

[balmy spade]

I hope you get to experience some healthier work environments.

[balmy mural]

Most of my network (read university friends I'm still in touch with) are at healthy work environments. Some had a year or two at bad working environments, but stayed around for the money, experience, or some other reason, and then moved on

[balmy spade]

I wasn't meaning to antagonize you but your responses tell me that I have. I'll refrain from doing so in the future if I can.

[vast shoal]

Automated tests are good for providing stability and preventing regressions, but having a good manual tester in addition to the automated tests can provide much better coverage. When I write the automated tests for my code, I do the best I can, but it's impossible to test every little thing even if I could remember to, which I don't.

Regarding code reviews, at least when I do them, I don't focus on catching bugs, but rather evaluating the design decisions made by the author. I leave it to the automated tests and the QAs to find the bugs.

We don't view any code as "my code" or "your code", everyone is equally responsible for all code, and we aim to develop the best possible code collaboratively, and code review is part of that process, figuring out what the best design is together.

[digital fjord]

Individual responsibility for code seems like it'd end up in a toxic blame game very easily.

[true harness]

and what happens when that person gets sick?

[vast shoal]

Seems like the person with ownership of the subsystem would tend to have significantly better understanding of the subsystem, so productivity in developing features and fixing bugs in that subsystem would go down markedly when that person is not available.

There's also the fact that some people are just better than others. I have a few coworkers I would feel uncomfortable giving sole responsibility of some subsystem to.

Maybe if there's a production incident, "rather quickly" may not be fast enough.

[hearty island]

my interview went really well

[warm nebula]

hi

[vast shoal]

I usually don't have that many comments to make on most PRs. But it's nice to see how other people work on a regular basis, and if there are glaring issues, there's a process for bringing them up.

It also tends to help with educating new team members and getting them synced on design principles in the code base.

[fast fossil]

if you hit your head against the wall too much, it'll start to become detrimental

EDIT: I think I lost the plot somewhere along the way...
that said, if there's someone already at the top and can help you climb over, it might be wise to accept the helping hand

[vast shoal]

That's very hard to relate to for me, there's always been a ton of talking involved in my experience

[near ocean]

goose farmer plans?

[hearty island]

another interview

that is 7 interviews since the 23rd of may

[white relic]

you're really on a tear

[hearty island]

thanks brother, and i got a second round for soc gen! THE DAY OF.

🗿 🗿 🗿

[white relic]

did you recently (re)start your search? or is it just luck?

or change something about the way you were doing it

[hearty island]

so you remember how i went for an examiner role and then my company got a hiring freeze?

[white relic]

yeah

[hearty island]

yea after that i shot out 80 apps - with a resume that was heavily tailored for compliance. and specifically researched compliance roles heavily on linkedin, youtube, everywhere i could.

[white relic]

nice, sounds like it's working!

Best of luck

[hearty island]

thank you so much man i appreciate it

[opaque falcon]

Hi

I am newbie , i know c programming and Python but I don't know how to make an actual application

Like UI UX and all stuffs like this app

So what are the steps and what do i need to create app like this

[near ocean]

Do you want to know how to do this stuff? Is that what you want as a career or a hobby?

[opaque falcon]

Its my hobby

[white relic]

This channel is for career advice and discussion; maybe #user-interfaces would be a better place to ask, or just in #python-discussion , if you can formulate the question without the screenshot (since that channel doesn't allow embeds)

[opaque falcon]

I just completed 12th and i like doing but i know only python and C
So all in terminal idk how to make an actual app

• I can create using GPT but i hate

[rotund kindle]

Hey I'd love to share my experience and knowledge about software development.
I wish to connect with people who is passionate about software.

[leaden quarry]

im in 10th grade and I js started learning python. When i go to uni i wanna continue IT. After 3 years of that i can do 2 years on software engineer. Is that worth it?

[vapid jay]

hiiii i'm from france and i just start to learn python plzz if somebody can call me in pm to learn me plzzz

godd bless u guys``

[near ocean]

This server doesnt do private lessons, people usually pay a lot of money for private tutoring

[vapid jay]

ok np

thx u

[wide abyss]

Just watch a bunch of Indian tutorials on youtube I learned the basics of it that way.

[vapid jay]

thx

[fast fossil]

why do you need the 3 years of IT? can't you just go for CS straight out of high school?

[fringe sphinx]

And read #python-discussion message for pointers on where to start

[red sun]

not to start drama but that sounds kind of racist

[hearty island]

how

[red sun]

just generalizing and stereotyping indians

[hearty island]

brother the only one doing that or attaching that assumption here is you

[red sun]

what are you talking about, and chill out i said i didn’t want to start drama, ill just leave it at don’t be racist

[hearty island]

nobody was being racist 🗿

[red sun]

can you please stop spamming the channel this isn’t on topic

[hearty island]

you're the one who brought it up brother, but ok

[timid sparrow]

You are mentally ill

[red sun]

excuse me?

[jaunty ore]

LOOOOOOOOOL

[leaden jasper]

All of you need to stop. If this off-topic chatter continues, I'll hand out mutes.

I'll remind folks about our #code-of-conduct and to not be rude to each other. If there's a moderation concern, then read out to @severe widget

[somber drum]

what a discussion

[jaunty violet]

Hello

WOAH

You guys have the MAPS flag in here that's too much for me, sorry I have to leave. I will just fight them in here.

[molten spoke]

🤨

we... don't... lol

but off topic for this channel regardless

[harsh river]

<@&831776746206265384> spamming for vc perms

[molten spoke]

yeah on it

cleaning up now

[old quest]

Heloo can someone review my resume

Looking for junior web developer positions.

[lilac yoke]

I’m assuming you cropped out the contact info

[silver granite]

Hey I wanna start learning python. Is dr. angela yu's 100 days bootcamp, great?

[lilac yoke]

The first thing you want is some kind of summary of qualifications. Write a paragraph describing why you are qualified for the position (for some specific job description). In that area, you want to hit every single key word they have on the job description, ie if they’re looking for “JavaScript, html, css, test driven, react” you’ll say;

“experienced web developer building full stack react applications with JavaScript, HTML & CSS, skilled in agile environments and following test driven development”

There should be way more on the job posting so you can make this a paragraph. You’ll get a near perfect ATS score if you do it right.

Other than that, it’s useful to have your bullet points be something like: accomplished X using Y which lead to Z impact

[old quest]

Yea i tried adding that, and the role information too. But it leaves me with 2 pages on the resume pdf

Is having 2 page resume fine?

[lilac yoke]

Skills is taking up a lot of room, it could all be one single line.

[lilac yoke]

No. Try to reduce the font, line spacing. Your headers have a lot of spacing

[old quest]

Yeah ill try that. i was using a resume template from flowcv

[lilac yoke]

Starting with a template is great you just want to curate it to fit as much info as possible

There’s a kind of dumb balance. You need to hit as many of the job description words as possible, but then still have it not be dense and wordy so that the real recruiters don’t toss it without looking at it

It’s a lot of trial and error, I had to start using semantic versioning for my resume, I’m on v3.21.4 lol

[old quest]

oh lol

Am on beta

[wraith harbor]

!res the resources in the link below is what this server recommends

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[silver granite]

those are all github links and all...i don't understand github now.

I need to explore more.

[wraith harbor]

Hm not sure about the github links but there are some good resources there.
If you prefer a book: https://automatetheboringstuff.com/#toc
Or youtube series: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-osiE80TeTskrapNbzXhwoFUiLCjGgY7
Or the Harvard CS50P course: https://pll.harvard.edu/course/cs50s-introduction-programming-python

[silver granite]

Thank you very much, Eddie!

Yoy provided me with so many resources, and Im grateful.
I'll definitely check it out and hone my python skill.

Thank u very much!

[fresh hull]

Yo

[hollow geyser]

im currently 13 years of age and i have a talent for python mainly pygame does anyone know how i could make some

@hollow geyser

[vast shoal]

Continue studying programming in your spare time, go to college, get a CS degree, get an internship and later employment as a developer

[hollow geyser]

nice

[visual flax]

What skills should I be working on as a computer engineer during the summer since I don't have an internship

[wraith harbor]

you should be making projects that you can put on your resume. as a junior, projects and internships are the main ways you can differentiate yourself

[visual flax]

What type of projects? Anything or whatever I'm into

[wraith harbor]

whatever you want, like if you wanna be a web dev do web stuff. just whatever you want to pursue/are interested in

like personally i did mobile phone apps

[visual flax]

Alright I was thinking of programming a robot with ros2 once I figure out the made programming language powering it with this kit that I bought

Curious if I don't have an internship right now is applying still worth it?

[wraith harbor]

you mean applying for internships for this summer? id assume theyre all closed by now but idk really

applying is really demoralizing so dont let it effect you too much

[visual flax]

Yea I figured as much
At 25 I've never had an internship and I only recently finished my associates. How can I catch up in terms of skill to someone who's been in the workforce since 21-22?

I'm disabled but I spent as much time as I could learning programming languages

Im not fantastic but I'm familiar with a lot of different languages. Like c#, python, c++,ect

I learned unity and unreal engine. Not perfect in either but I enjoyed both.

[wraith harbor]

cs is just hard to break into right now. every position has 100s of candidates with basically the same resume. you really need to network and have really good projects, everything else is kind of outside your control. maybe others here have better advice but thats my perspective on it

i would try to find a niche that might not get as many people applying

[visual flax]

Ok

[balmy mural]

I had friends at uni who were 5 years older when completing their degrees. They don't "catch up" to people who have been in the workforce since 22, they compare themselves to other people who just entered the workforce, regardless of age

[visual flax]

Makes sense

[rocky fulcrum]

for the UK folks, i was honestly wondering whether or not it matters if you do foundation or higher

if foundation only lets you get at most a 5 and a 4 is a pass across every subject, realistically, what's stopping me from just taking foundation classes for everything and passing easily? is there any value in the higher grades?

not that i'm going to do this. i like not being bored out of my mind doing something less stimulating than my ABCs - this is solely just a thought experiment

[near ocean]

Foundation years are cash grabs, do your a levels properly and join a uni course at year 1 instead

[drowsy ivy]

Where did you start entering Python? What did you look at? Where did you get the information from?

[lapis wind]

they're talking about different things

[fringe sphinx]

This is going to sound very generic but; i am a big fan of the Feynman method. Keep a running list of things you don't know. Pick one and learn it until you can explain it to someone else. Repeat

[lapis wind]

Uk exams have "higher" and "foundation" tiers on exams, foundation is a significantly easier paper but caps you at at most a minimum passing grade

[fringe sphinx]

Many things we don't really learn to sufficient level of understanding. We don't ask the 5 why's. This is what differentiates great engineers from mere coders.

[balmy mural]

This sounds like an awesome idea. I mentally note down something I want to go read up on, but then forget about it quite regularly. I should get to everything (or at least the ones that interest me the most) at some point if I do this

[lapis wind]

yes there is a reason, A-levels and Unis will often require more than a 5. Most schools I know require at least a 6 in the subject you're trying to take for A levels, so if you wanted to do Maths, Physics, Biology. Most would require at least a 6 in those 3.

Now this is normally managed by the school, and up to teachers, but there is a reason why they exist and in ~general if you took all foundation papers to have an easy time when you could do the higher papers, either your teachers are going to deny you to the A levels that want a 6 or higher regardless of if you ask them to let you do it because the difference between GCSE and A-levels in terms of effort required is huge so they probably aren't going to take being lazy and coasting through on the bare minimum as a sign that you would succeed on the course.

also foundation does not cover a significant amount of additional ciriculum the higher courses do which then puts even more strain on your at A levels where you will be expected to know this or learn it ~very quickly

[rocky fulcrum]

if most require more than a 5, where do foundation students end up?

[fringe sphinx]

I keep a single 'note' that I'll drop various things, including things ppl have mentioned that I don't know about. I also make a habit of looking for new topics: watching conference videos is a big one (pycon's videos are excellent)

[fringe sphinx]

What's the best score? 6 out of what?

[lapis wind]

Depends on the course, but a lot will do more vocational courses or btecs instead which have different requirements

[fringe sphinx]

Uk's system seems so damn confusing.

[lapis wind]

the UK switched GCSEs to use 1 - 9, no idea why... Everything else still (currently?) uses E-A* outside of btecs

[white relic]

can you do foundations in some topics and higher in others?

or is that not how it works

[lapis wind]

But just to add to this, most people I knew who were on Foundation tiers were on the highers papers for the subjects they wanted to study, I know some people who absolutely worked their ass off to be able to do the higher papers so they could take the A level

[white relic]

ah I guess that answers my question lol

[balmy mural]

PyCon US was pretty recent right? I should go check out a few videos. Unfortunately most of my "study time" is currently going towards learning Dutch, but once that hits B1+ I can start focussing more on studying some cool topics

[rocky fulcrum]

you can: you don't have to do foundation in every subject because you were in one

[fringe sphinx]

Yes... I try to get one 'new topic' paper / video a day or so. Very deliberate to expose myself to new ideas/topics. (I don't always, but I try)

[lapis wind]

One other thing to note, if you ever planned to take Foundation just because it was easier and then beg the teacher to let you do the A-level, you will suffer. I remember in our class we did the entire Maths and Physics GCSE higher course in a few weeks

so one way or another, you will need to learn it, it is just do you want to spend 3 years going over it and learning it thoroughly or a few weeks and desperately catch up

[wild pendant]

no no

[near ocean]

Is this a recent thing? Tbf i should stop giving advice on UK uni intro stuff, its been a decade since i've done mine

[lapis wind]

I am not sure when it was introduced. cant remember if it was part of my year or not

[radiant vortex]

Many of the changes made to the UK education system came out around 2017

[buoyant cairn]

At least for the sake of TOS don't say things in a place they don't belong to

[left storm]

I would love to work on upwork and do some side projects there. But i am not sure what to learn or do. Currently looking at a fastapi course on udemy and I want to do something with that. What are recurring real world projects that I should master before looking for work?

[pine sleet]

i think you'll find that finding work on upwork will be incredibly difficult. but besides that, I don't think it necessarily matters much what you do, the skills will be transferrable

[left storm]

Well, I have previously learned how to develop webscrapers and sort data. I also have processes to standardize addresses (very useful for databases that have manual input and want to reduce duplicates) etc. But I don't get a lot of work. So I thought I'd learn something new?

Fastapi seems interesting, I like the idea of working in backend.

And there isn't a better platform than Upwork. Not because upwork is so particularly great, it's just, it always feels saturated and impossible to get work wherever you position yourself unforunately 😦 (unless you know something that I don't )

As long as it's in demand it's something worth learning and trying to get work

But I AM open to other suggestions! I am not lazy, just have no clear direction :S

[pine sleet]

Not because upwork is so particularly great, it's just, it always feels saturated and impossible to get work
yeah that's what I meant. you'll find this issue persists on fiverr too. it's why freelancing is just not a great option if you want to get money or experience

[left storm]

Fair point. But if we ignore this for the moment, what would be in demand regarding fastapi/backend work? I would still like to learn and then see if I can't land a gig or two here and there. Worst case scenario: I learned something useful to put on my CV. I am just not deep into it yet to know what type of jobs are actually in demand. Obviously there are a range of possibilities, but some things will be more often requested than others.

Which ones do you think those could be?

[pine sleet]

people don't really look at demand in terms of specific frameworks and tools, so it's hard to tell

[next plover]

They definitely look for specific frameworks in certain companies

How relevant is it in the actual interview? Depends

[pine sleet]

sure, but they're usually flexible about it. i'm more talking about, it's hard to say like "fastapi is more in demand than django right now", i guess you could look at postings with those terms in them, but again companies are usually flexible about it since a good dev can pick up a new framework relatively fast if they have some experience with something else

[left storm]

Oh, I meant more like "What kind of tasks FOR fastapi are relevant" not asking how relevant fastapi is.

Or, in other words: What can you do with fastapi that the clients want? I know many jobs can be done with other frameworks and they are relatively interchangeable.

I am just not entirely sure what uses FastAPI has in the real world. I know the general aspect of it.

I mean, duh

[left storm]

No. I just mean what kind of apis are in demand?

[left storm]

I mean, working with ai is basically just Post + Get and then display the results from ai, right? Sounds simple enough

I just don't think I could go deep into ML

[pine sleet]

The APIs are just the interface to what your business actually does. That’s what you should be concerned with

[harsh river]

working with ai is basically just Post + Get
that's highly dependent on what you're working on and the approach you take, if you decide to take the approach of using existing work, then you can do that, if you're going to implement everything from scratch, then it becomes more than "basically just Post + Get"

[solar cape]

hi guys

[rigid vapor]

Hiiii

[left storm]

I think you're overcomplicating this. I am just looking for a side gig on upwork, not get deep into ML

[wanton birch]

Man just stop teaching machines how to learn! There will be no more job left for us

[fading leaf]

That will never happen. A smart AI only helps developers more.

[wanton birch]

The hubris!

[fading leaf]

There is always a new tech every couple of year and this common trope that developers are not needed anymore, nothing new

[wanton birch]

Yeah, nah I don't think devs are dead now. We are not there yet. But we have crossed some sort of a tipping point after which it is hard to see why anyone would need to hire fresh grads and all*. The best counter to that is the problem of needing sernior devs who aren't going to materialise out of thin air without you hiring juniors. I also see a lot of students using LLMs like crazy and worry about what kind of devs they will even end up becoming. To review the LLM's output, you have to understand better than it does. I don't know. Maybe the future is prompt engineering vibe coding madness lol
*I forgot to mention that that's assuming that this technology keeps progressing

[fading leaf]

The ones that are using LLMs like crazy are the ones who used to do nothing but copy paste projects on their GitHub anyways, or use Chegg to pass school assignments. Nothing new, just now AI makes it easier. But everyone is soon realizing they need to learn it properly to get and maintain a job.

Even if the tech advances, mid level managers won't ever really have the knowledge to fully integrate a service and change features to meet real time demands and push it to prod, those will be the dev's jobs while a really smart AI just helps us more. If anything, they will decrease deadlines and increase workload since AI would have gotten really good and stakeholders would just try to squeeze more out of you.

Most companies ban the usage of LLMs anyway if they are customer centric and the data is PII

[wanton birch]

That is another aspect to it I was wondering about. I think these tools would totally change people's expectation of how much work you are supposed to produce.

[wanton birch]

I think that will make sense until we figure out how to run our own LLM models in protected/private settings in a cost effective way

[left storm]

Jesus, I have asked for advice three times on three different platforms, and without me mentioning AI, it came up pretty much immediately every time.

And no matter how I react to it (once I ignored, once I went with it (here) and once I spoke out against it), it just ended in a debate over AI anyway. ....

I think learning to code is dead. It's all steering towards AI now and you can't get any sort of advice that isn't connected to it.

When you say "Oh yeah, AI is not complicated" you get people telling you it's super complicated.

When you say "Oh yeah, AI is complicated, I stick to just databases and back end" it's "But AI is the future. It makes everything easier and it's so high in demand. You've got to go with the times, man!".

THere is no winning. AI has won, it's everywhere now.

Man, I just wanted to know what kind of APIs I should focus on first.

Guess now I just go and ask chatgpt. Thanks for the help, guys🙄

[balmy spade]

I think learning to code is dead.

That's what the hype wants you to think. I wouldn't give it much weight.

You want advice that isn't connected to it: Level up yourself. Learn, explore, make mistakes, and have fun. This is your life. Want to learn coding? Go for it.

[fringe sphinx]

What was the original question here?

[lilac yoke]

Why would you focus your efforts in "learning some API"?

[left storm]

I said I am currently doing a course on fastapi and want to learn some backend stuff. What kind of APIs/tasks are a good start? For some work on the side on upwork and stuff?

[fringe sphinx]

If this is the question, it's sort of 'who knows'. People don't really go out and say: 'I need a fastapi project'. They say: 'I need to build an app to solve this problem', and fastapi is just one of many ways to solve it

[fringe sphinx]

I'll always say: data skills. Pandas, DuckDB (my ❣️ ), Numpy, etc. All roads lead to data nowadays

[left storm]

I mean, I guess I am just asking the wrong way around but I just want to know what problems are solved with fastapi (among other frameworks).

That way I can pick more relevant topics to learn

[lilac yoke]

You're essentially an engineer asking "what can I build with this hammer"

[balmy spade]

FastAPI solves the problem of needing a webserver.

[left storm]

More like a handyman asking "what are you using a hammer for?"

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, see that's a better question tbh. How are -we- using it is better than how could you use it

[lilac yoke]

The answer to that question is on their front page.

[fringe sphinx]

I do more with flask, not fastapi, but we use it for both internal tooling and for building data exploration applications

[lilac yoke]

I'll guide you in asking a better question: what product do you want to deliver?

[left storm]

What product is in demand?

I am not offering a solution, I am looking for problems that I can solve with it

I am learning how to use it currently.

[balmy spade]

For example: I used FastAPI as a webserver to handle web requests (api calls) for a static website that I built for my team at work. It allows my team to use dozens of different administration tools that all take simple inputs without needing to know how to use the tools. They visit a webpage, select the tool they want, run it, the call goes to my fastapi service and the results are returned

Does that help you see one way the tool is used in the field?

[lilac yoke]

This perspective is the problem: you're learning a tool and you are completely unaware what it actually solves

You should look into in demand careers. Not just "software engineer"-- that encompasses thousands of different specializations. Dig deeper, and find a project you really want to engineer.

[fair parcel]

Selamun Aleykum Turk varmi yarinki sinavda yardim edebilecek biri oracle hakkinda

[lilac yoke]

Once you have a project, I'd be happy to tell you what tools would fit it.

[left storm]

Yes, it is a good way to start talking about this. What I am really looking for is an answer like "Fastapi is doing really well for online shops to catalogue shipments, ingoing and outgoing, for a simpe warehouse API. There are a lot of jobs like this open on Upwork".

[fringe sphinx]

Ofc, the other challenge is upwork and fiverr are a very difficult way to make a buck. A lot of supply, not a lot of demand.

[left storm]

Maybe that's my problem. Maybe I just try to find out how to do something before I even ahve something I can do.

DUnno, I am sort teaching myself and there is no practical guidance anywhere really. So my iea was to just pick a direction (backend, apis), then research what jobs are in demand and then learn how to do it so I can offer it.

Also I think this is the very first time I get to talk about this without people being snobbdy and elitist, or pointing to "ai" all the time. Which is fantastic.

[balmy spade]

FastAPI could be used in those things but it is not the solution to them. Online ships to catalogue shipments sounds like a hell of a task. A "simple" warehouse API would need the mechanisms behind it to be build and FastAPI (or flask or django....) would just be the way to talk to it.

Have you ever build something that uses a database? It would be a strong contender of requirements for anything inventory based. Input and output could be the webserver (API). Now my brain is shifting down the track of:

• how many users
• where does this need to be hosted
• concurrency is going to introduce race conditions
• Reports, they'll want all sorts of reports

I've never done upwork. These are just the initial thoughts that race through my head at the project barely defined.

[left storm]

Take for example what I've done the past 2-3 years: At one poitn I just picked python to learn, set through the basics, did a few courses, got a good grasp of the basics. Then I looked into what I can do with it, and I found webscrapers and webautomations (which are very useful in some industries like for prospecting, competitor research etc) and I catered to it. I built my first scripts, got results, and sort of went along with it for a while and now I feel I want to do more/different and learn more?

[fringe sphinx]

It's difficult and probably unproductive to try to figure out which exact skills are 'in demand'. Every single person here has a very different set of skills

[left storm]

It was honestly just an example. I am asking because I am ignorant but willing to learn

[fringe sphinx]

I'm a data guy, so I'll say: 'data things'. Other people are deep in Python internal, or networking, or embedded systems, or web development or what have you. Others are generalists who know a lot of things.

[balmy spade]

I love that you're willing to learn. I'm trying to show you where the small piece of [name of library] fits in the larger picture. I don't want to dissuade you from continuing to learn.

[fringe sphinx]

One suggestion is: go watch some PyCon videos, this years are really good. https://youtube.com/@pyconus?feature=shared

[left storm]

Oh, I see. I thought you just meant it's not a very good example (which only would have been by accident, as it's just a made up example)

[zinc stone]

Uh...Does a startup owner needs to be a very good programmer and someone others can depend on?

[balmy spade]

"Coding is dead" is a phrase often said by those that don't yet understand that the actual coding part is usually the easiest part of the job. Figuring out what to code, what not to code, and wrapping that all around the ever-moving target of a client's request is what being a developer is all about.

[fringe sphinx]

They certainly don't need a bad or undependable programmer

[left storm]

You know what. I have opened the link and will watch a few videos once my food is done.

[zinc stone]

oo okay

[left storm]

I think he meant if the the owner needs to be a good programmer or someone the team can depend on (regarding coding, I assume)

[zinc stone]

When starting a company, its always called as a startup at first?

[fringe sphinx]

Oh hah, misread.

[left storm]

The truth is: Theoretically no, but realistically yes. As a busines you can run it without knowing the ins and outs if you have the vision and other talents (like sales etc). But depending on what you do, it's good to know what happens behind the curtains and pull yourweight a well, especially at the beginning when it's a very small team.

[balmy spade]

If you are a startup owner, you had best be dependable. If you aren't, how will you possibly attract and keep both employees and venture capital?

[fringe sphinx]

No, some businesses are just 'small businesses' that i wouldn't consider a startup.

[lilac yoke]

If I was to take a wild guess, people on "UpWork" (I don't even know what that is, I'll assume its some freelancing website) are looking for: static web apps, or simple dynamic web/mobile apps.

In the case of static web apps, they want visual awe-- this is a job most suited for an artist who happens to know how to program, you'll spend 95% of your time in something like Adobe Illustrator and 5% writing the code

For simple dynamic web apps, they are looking to deliver functionality. This will almost always fit into: authentication, backend, frontend, database. At least 50% of your time will go into planning: creating a schema, envisioning your api, creating a skeleton ui.

[zinc stone]

If they are small, what would you consider them?

[fringe sphinx]

Companies with customers.

[zinc stone]

I want to become dependable but idk how and to what extent do I need to be dependable

[fringe sphinx]

Startup implies, to me, a certain type of young company that's still building their product and finding their initial customers.

[left storm]

You don't know upwork?

But authentication doesn't seem to be a big deal, or at least I thought so? Isn't that done with libraries now that handle that sort of stuff? I know it's in the curriculum of my course, but later. Haven't got tehre yet

[balmy spade]

What does dependable mean to you?

[left storm]

You need to pull your weight, one way or another. If you're not good at coding, you have to be good at something else.

[zinc stone]

Well like an employee comes to me and there is an error he can't fix. I want to be able to fix it or when the whole team is just feeling stuck and I have to be there for them.

[fringe sphinx]

You have employees who work directly for you?

[zinc stone]

right now?

[fringe sphinx]

Isn't that what you're asking?

[lilac yoke]

Focus on thinking of a project that will hit and or expand on the criteria of a simple web app.

[left storm]

I think there's some sort of language barrier here

[zinc stone]

...No I mean technically yes but I am just trying to get some more knowledge yk im still learning but its my dream to have my own company 😅

[fringe sphinx]

By the time you get there, you'll have lots of experience.

[balmy spade]

Okay, that's a start.

• Learning to guide
• Learning to empower

These are leadership qualities and there's an endless supply of books, videos, talks, and podcasts around them. I would say, in retrospect of my own progress, that one of the first skills you learn here is how to listen.

[zinc stone]

I think so

[left storm]

When I was younger I had a friend who ran a garage, he had barely a clue about fixing cars, but he knew where to source parts and make a deal, and he was a warm salesman type personality who the clients came to and bought cars from.

If one of his mechanics came up to him and says "I don't know how to do this" then he also wouldn't know. But it wasn't his strength and no one really expected himto know either. He was the guy who sold the jobs.

If you have a start up it is just important that you're good at one thing and find guys who are good at the other things that you are bad at. Together you are a team.

[zinc stone]

I am also only 16...

Perhaps I am trying to look too far into the future

[balmy spade]

Wonderful. You have less bad habits to unlearn.

[zinc stone]

I think that means I also have alot of time? Idk at which age people start such sort of things

[left storm]

You're the right age to start learning, my friend.

[balmy spade]

All ages. It means you shouldn't look at your age as a barrier.

[zinc stone]

Okey guys thx

One more thing I wanted to ask is how do people find clients? Like my coding teacher has his own small company and he gets clients from UK etc. I have always wondered how?

[balmy spade]

Many different ways. Word of mouth is where small, local shops usually start.

[zinc stone]

Word of mouth where? Like on social media?

[balmy spade]

No, actually talking with people. Though I'm sure word of mouth includes social site interactions as well as physically speaking with others.

It was just an example. You find clients by advertising your service to those that might be interested.

[zinc stone]

Oh like google ads?

[balmy spade]

How you advertise can be anything from simply talking about it in your network of friends to a full-blown (and expensive) campaign.

[zinc stone]

Okey

[balmy spade]

Ask your teacher. I'm sure they'd be willing to talk a little on how they get their name out to clients.

[zinc stone]

Ight

[balmy spade]

((I've lived long enough that "word of mouth" is met with "what social platform is that?" ))

[zinc stone]

😅 I lack alot of knowledge in marketing etc

[left storm]

Don't feel old. It's just some people don't understand this, but it's not yet a generational thing. Wait until we replace speech with texting. Social interactions are so bothersome these days... No one even hangs out casually any more, it has be pre agreed, marked in the calendar and rearranged 3 times beforehand. Doorbell industry is on its knees. lol

[vapid jay]

what ide is that

[violet umbra]

Eye bleach

[errant gulch]

hi

[acoustic ermine]

Hello everyone, I am interested in learning a python program language . But I confused. Where and how did I start to learn. Guide me to learning process

[balmy spade]

!resources
Check out a guide such as Automate the Boring Stuff, or Byte of Python.
Also join us in #python-discussion for, well, python discussion.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[acoustic ermine]

Thanks for sharing

[pale tartan]

Did software engineer is best job or what

Can you help me on it, python is use on it or what

[peak halo]

there is no "best job". many people in this chat are software engineers and are satisfied with that.

[fast maple]

👋 New to this community. Any military veterans in the community? I know some veterans that need some advice on transitioning out and want to get into CS field. Wanted to see if I could connect them with veterans already in the field.

[peak halo]

You're specifically asking for US veterans, or who?

[vapid jay]

my father is a veteran

[fast maple]

Yeah, I guess I should’ve clarified. Yes, I have some US service members that want to get into CS. Thanks!

[fast maple]

Let him know I say “Thanks for his service”. Tough job. Also, tough on the family, especially moving around if he made a career of it.

[vapid jay]

Thanks buddy

[pale tartan]

Ohhh software engineer huh.

@peak halo if I learn python then I become software engineer

[peak halo]

It doesn't work like that. A degree in something like computer science is virtually a requirement.

[tulip arch]

Hi anyone can suggest me a better source to learn fast api

[tulip arch]

library implementation

[neat swift]

Is game dev at all a realistic job opportunity or is something else ‘safer’

[vast shoal]

There are gamedev jobs, but from what I hear they tend to pay worse on average than comparable software jobs in other industries, and there's comparatively a lot of crunch.

I don't think they're "unsafe", the working conditions are just worse than average, from what I can tell.

[neat swift]

That makes sense, I just like making games (then again I’ve only made text games on python lol,) but any coding is enjoyable. Thanks!!

[next plover]

ive heard its really bad

[neat swift]

The rushes/crunch I’ve heard a lot abt and the whole activation blizzard situation

Esp since I’m a girl

[vast shoal]

You can always work a regular software job as your day job and make games on the side.

[neat swift]

Yeah! I think that’s gonna be the plan :))

[native hound]

Hey everyone 👋

I'm just getting into Python, mainly because I'm super interested in cybersecurity and ethical hacking. Right now, I'm learning the basics by building small tools like port scanners and simple brute force scripts (Harmless, for fun and to try and understand it).

Long-term, I’d love to work in penetration testing or any kind of security-focused role. If anyone has advice on what to learn, projects to build, or resources like TryHackMe/HTB, I’m all ears.

Glad to be here and looking forward to learning with you all!

[balmy mural]

Check out the pinned messages in #cybersecurity there's some really good info there

[thick briar]

if i was hoping to apply to a school in china that required some certificates, would doing an edX course look good on my personal reference/be worth it in the long term? I've never coded before and I'm interested in learning the basics of python

[drowsy ivy]

Всем привет

[white relic]

Hello! Please use English here, according to the server #rules 🙂

[drowsy ivy]

Fine

[hearty island]

goldman just hit me up for an interview

and another broker dealer too

[fringe sphinx]

I'm not in China, but my general advice is: you can learn Python any number of ways. #python-discussion message is a good starting point

[quartz gate]

Shucks, "Goldman" keeps hitting me up cuz I'm elligible for a "Business Loan". . . . We are not the same. You win this round, Damian Wayne.

[hearty island]

makes it 9 interviews, 18 days, 83 apps.

i think what set me apart was my cover letter 🗿

NAUURRRRR, WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS LINKEDIN?????

ai powered job search? bish wtf

oh phew - can switch back to traditional.

https://youtu.be/1qGJATaKafg

[near ocean]

Anything is better than vanilla linkedin search

[wraith harbor]

whats in your cover letter that sets you apart?

[hearty island]

the fact i wrote one

[wraith harbor]

makes sense. i used to write cover letters but i got bored

[lilac yoke]

chatgpt, here is an old cover letter I wrote, here is the job description, and here is my resume. create me a cover letter

[hearty island]

[lilac yoke]

oh and don't forget to copy and paste their page on "company values" into the prompt

[summer roost]

so you... you understand why that's not valuable, right?

[hearty island]

yep ofc

[muted venture]

Hello guys

[full fossil]

Just starting UG from T4 clg and really anxious about T4 tag wht do yall think is it clg really matters? And if yes at what level??

[whole summit]

As long as you have a degree from a college it doesnt matter much except for the first job.
be super good at your skills and go through a personally known network for the first job. Work for two years then it won't matter from that point on.

[vast shoal]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[vast shoal]

This server is not a job board

[analog sun]

@strong flax your message has been removed for violating server rules

[lapis turret]

Hey guys, I could use a bit of advice. I’m 14 (14.5 to be exact) from Pakistan, and I’ve been planning to go into AI engineering. I’ve built a decent foundation in Python and recently started an AI course on Udemy. Right now I’m doing my O Levels, then A Levels, and hopefully BS+MS in the US.

But here’s my concern—I’m not great at math. My problem-solving is fine, but math isn’t my strength, and I don’t want to invest years only to realize AI isn’t for me.

So I’d really appreciate advice on:
– Other software fields I might be better suited for
– What I should pursue for my BS/MS
– What to focus on this summer to level up overall

Is AI still the right choice? Or should I explore something else?

Feel free to comment or DM me—I'd genuinely appreciate it!

[agile breach]

14 is way too young to be worrying about specialising

[lapis turret]

dude

it is not tbh

[umbral frigate]

They aren't wrong, 14 is a bit too young to worry about trying to hone in on what you want to specialise in. It's not bad to have a passion or attraction to a certain thing outside of your normal education, but it's still important to focus on school and then worry about the specifics later on. It's also okay to invest years into something and realise it's not for you. That's part of finding what fits you and you still have a lot of time to adjust. And those years also aren't wasted... you still learn valuable things, even if you may end up dropping whatever you've worked on and move on to something else.

well mar could probably have better advice than me.

[near ocean]

it sounds like you have a great plan already tbh
keep your grades up
enjoy teenagehood as much as a teenager can
go into your degree eventually

How come youre doing O/A-levels if you want to study in the US?

[fringe sphinx]

Most devs, including college grads, are best prepared with a wide foundation of knowledge... not specialization. There are certainly counter examples where people are passionate about a topic... but I think that's different than specialization for the sake of specialization

But, for a 14 year old (and a 50 year old) I think it's healthy to pick something to focus on for a short time... because it's hard to learn everything everywhere all at once.

[umbral frigate]

If you're enjoying AI, don't feel the need to do something else just to fit the norm. But if you want to try something new for the sake of curiosity, that's ok. Just don't overdo it... you've got time 🙂

[lapis turret]

The main thing for me is i am NOT a book worm and i am not great at studies but yeah i am good at the subjects i need (according to what ik) i am good at comp S, english, physics and tho not good but also not too bad at math

[fringe sphinx]

Sounds pretty normal!

[lapis turret]

Is AI too hard because rn this summer i am grinding on OOP and that means i am pretty much fitted for python but for other things i am not sure what to do much

[fringe sphinx]

The question is meaningless because: AI is not some specific thing.

But, as a beginner, you're not going to become some PhD level expert in AI in any short period of time

[lapis turret]

Mhm

[fringe sphinx]

But, you can certainly use AI and learn more about AI

Lots of people say they're doing AI but they're really just learning how to use AI tools. Nothing wrong with that, it s just different.

[lapis turret]

yeah ik that using ai tools and learing how ai works in the backend the neural networks the other tools in it is the thing

[fringe sphinx]

I use PyTorch and similar frameworks for modeling and predictions, but I wouldn't consider myself an expert on the subject

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, you can get familiar with how NNs work. And you can use frameworks like PyTorch., without being an expert in either.

We stand on the shoulders of giants, so to speak.

[lapis turret]

Can you give me some other things to have under my belt? Because there is too much to do it all at once

[fringe sphinx]

Absolutely, that's the right attitude: can't learn everything so pick something and learn it, then repeat (for infinity)

[lapis turret]

haha

[fringe sphinx]

Other topics: socket programming (communication) is a good thing to learn because it's underneath so much of what we do... and this forces some learning of Os's and networking

Making a simple multiplayer chat app that communicates over sockets, for instance

[lapis turret]

And are there any really worthy projects like which'll be resume and uni application wise worthy to do as well?

[fringe sphinx]

Another thing: watch PyCon 2025 videos on YouTube. Some great stuff that'll expose you to new ideas.

(Or Europython, or any PyCon)

[lapis turret]

I'll surely look into that and do you have any project ideas to share?

[fringe sphinx]

!kin

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[fringe sphinx]

Start here

[lapis turret]

Are they uni application and resume worthy?

[fringe sphinx]

I don't know your country. In US, any project is really not going to stand out unless it's part of some larger extracurricular (as far as Incanimagine)

[lapis turret]

hmm so it doesnt matter how much certifications or projects i do have or skill in the feild to some extent?

[fringe sphinx]

In other words, I doubt there's anything you'd do that, by itself, would be noticeable. No uni is going to review some code on GitHub

Not sure that it 'doesn't matter', you can learn it and use it and use that in a college essay to talk about it. Or, you could use that to land an internship or something.

[lapis turret]

Btw about unis what is the most important part aside from the SAT

[fringe sphinx]

In other words, learning is the goal of a project: it prepares you for the next challenge. Are there robotics or programming clubs are your school?

[fringe sphinx]

I only know US admissions. Grades and extracurriculars and the essay are really the three main parts.

[lapis turret]

yeah but they are rogue and no one cares in the administration

[lapis turret]

yeah i am planning to do BS and MS and land a job in US

[solar hazel]

help, how can I start either making progress in learning and not just procastinating whenever the time comes for learning or atleast accept that I will only learn slowly

[solar hazel]

i really struggle with my own nasty habit of just going on tangents or distracting myself when I need to work

i feel if I dont use these holidays properly, i wont get anywhere anymore

[fringe sphinx]

Yup, just keep learning different topics. Pick something you know nothing about and learn that. You'll be far more 'valuable' with a broad foundation.

[fringe sphinx]

Same thing as getting in shape in the gym: discipline beats motivation.

Show up, do what you need to do, then rest.

[crisp plinth]

For everyone is different what worked for me is putting my notifications of my phone off make it that on lock screen you only see your clock and try to disipline yourself to do atleast a set amount of time that you want to achieve

[solar hazel]

hmm, fair, i guess for me it could be opening kaggle ig, maybe ill get to work now

[fringe sphinx]

My strategy is: do one productive thing first thing every day. Then if I get nothing else done, it's still a positive day

[crisp plinth]

If you know what can make you distracted fast take away the distraction

[fringe sphinx]

(Which is why I'm in the gym now 🙂

[alpine shore]

Hello, I just want to ask about what types of projects should I do first as a learner who just began learning python? should I do like calculator first? after that what should I do next?

[solar hazel]

funny, I dislocated my arm doing tricep extensions just day before

[fringe sphinx]

!kin start here for ideas. There's no specific best thing but lots of good things

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[fringe sphinx]

Wow, that sucks.

[solar hazel]

yeah, my day works like this, I wake up go to gym(after injury I watched tv today), waste my time on anime then more comics, till its the evening

[crisp plinth]

Also if you make something like a calc for example use it over your os one so that you will use your own project and so you can easily find ways for bugs or feature expansion :)

[alpine shore]

Alright, thank you 🙂

[crisp plinth]

Not saying you have to just saying that it can be helpfull if you want to learn how to think further than what you might think is finished

[alpine shore]

It's also something I had in mind since creating something and just leaving it to dust wont do anything, instead using it as a learning material would prove much more useful long-term.

[solar hazel]

then I start like around 6 but I started reading philosophy for ai in between the tv show watching, and then at 6 or 7 I start and some how always waste more time planning than actually doing till maybe 8 then I do some work for an hr and attend the lecture for the extra course ive registered for from 9 to 1030, then I waste more time, maybe play cs and then yeah sleep at like 11 maybe at 2 somehow if I cant sleep

[fringe sphinx]

Ok, so: go to gym. While there, watch a Pycon video to learn something. Then go home and do one task off your todo list. Then waste rest of day.

[solar hazel]

i cant go to the gym anymore tho, gotta pause my membership, the injury was bad

so now Ive got 1.5 more hrs to kill

[fringe sphinx]

Well, when life gives you lemons...

[solar hazel]

you wait till they expire and regret it(jk)

[solar hazel]

make lemonade, or make salad

[fringe sphinx]

Lemon salad? Ugh

[solar hazel]

try and squeez some on cucumber and put some salt on it

[hearty island]

blackstone interview in 25 minutes

[hearty island]

dang, rescheduled lol

[spice fossil]

Hi everyone

[vast shoal]

I somewhat had issues with this in the past, and I found that the pomodoro method kinda helped.

Short time-boxed intervals where I need to just push, and frequent breaks inbetween

[hearty island]

yea i do even shorter time intervals than that. i think 25 minutes is the standard. i blame the brainrot

[vast shoal]

It's also a matter of practice

You can learn to sustain focus for longer if you work on it

(disregarding factors like ADHD and such, I don't have the expertise to know how that impacts things)

[oak mason]

hi everyone

[prime oar]

why it is important to study maths if you are going to adopt bca

[near ocean]

What is bca?

[prime oar]

bachelor in computer application

[near ocean]

Do you not need math for that degree?

[prime oar]

i left math in 10th class only

like if i go for bca now then i will have to study so bit confused should i opt bca or not basic math is required

[hearty island]

is that like IT

[digital fjord]

most computer-adjacent degrees will have some math, usually at least statistics (and thus calc), discrete math, and linear algebra.

[near ocean]

How does bca compare to comp sci
I imagine comp sci is more sought after (and definitely has maths modules in it)

[fleet sparrow]

All I am interviewing tm morning wish me Godspeed and import antigravity

[jovial solstice]

Can I wish you good luck instead ?

[wind maple]

Hi all

Iam new to python, i would love take your guide to improve my career

[charred kernel]

Hey

I’m new here

[fleet sparrow]

Hi

[peak halo]

@tulip sapphire this is not one of the three off-topic channels I mentioned. Please move your message to #ot1-perplexing-regexing

[peak halo]

@subtle nacelle your message was removed for advertising and for requesting work. please read the #rules

[grand skiff]

So, I have a job in IT now, what are some good ways to use Python in that field

[next plover]

what is your position?

[grand skiff]

General IT and system admin

[next plover]

automation perhaps

but general IT is. very broad

[grand skiff]

Yeah, I know, I'm a Jack of all trades so they basically put me to do all the things

[next plover]

i just hope you get paid well to do all the things

[grand skiff]

Oh, absolutely, it's a lot more than minimum wage at least haha

[next plover]

well good

[vast shoal]

It depends a lot on what your tasks actually are, but anything that is repetitive is a candidate for automation, probably.

[grand skiff]

I got you, I'll look at what things we do that might need that. Maybe Entra roles or something I dunno

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384>

[analog sun]

!cleanban 1275253621172469927 no

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @outer quest permanently.

[safe loom]

With RAG and MCP becoming commonplace, I'm afraid that recruiters will demand us to adopt the next buzzword and trend ASAP...

[vast shoal]

Recruiters looking for buzzwords isn't exactly a new concept.

[lime atlas]

hello

[lilac yoke]

Cisco is the best course you can get

[fringe sphinx]

There's an interesting point that: even though the latest buzzwords aren't what hiring managers need, candidates who aren't familiar with them will seem out of touch with current tech and seen lesser

[safe loom]

That's what I'm afraid of too. RAG and MCP came out not so long ago and at a quick pace too.

[vast shoal]

I'm sure it doesn't require that much effort to get sufficiently up to speed with buzzwords to satisfy recruiters if deep competence isn't actually required.

[fringe sphinx]

Nobody expects an entry candidate to be expert, but knowing what a rag is just shows you're keeping current.

Same as the old Wall Street advice to read a newspaper before walking into an interview: being familiar with current topics

[real mantle]

oh true though like yup (Are you a flash fan) Since ewww Reverse Flash

[quartz gate]

No problem, I'll just master the 10 Shadows and have Mahoraga adapt to insane recruiters.

Of course, there is a very high chance that Mahoraga will slaughter me while I try to tame it, but hey that's the job market right?

[vagrant turtle]

Engineering Interview & Career Support

Hi everyone!

I help early-career developers land jobs in competitive markets by providing tailored interview coaching and job search tools. If you’re interested in boosting your chances, I’d love to connect and share more.

[torn gust]

hello

[wraith harbor]

got denied after 5 interviews: "We aren't the type of company you're looking for" oh well we keep goin

[smoky quest]

what did you tell them to trigger such a diss?

[smoky quest]

There will always be new buzzwords. Don't get sucked in by them or HackerNews Driven Development.
People will always have something to sell or some agenda to push.

So take a step back, evaluate their merit without any bias and you will be fine. Having a grounded stance is also appreciated

[wraith harbor]

im not sure honestly ive been trying to figure it out. i mustve said something without realizing

[smoky quest]

were you too greedy or joked about the wrong thing maybe?

[wraith harbor]

idk i tried to keep it professional i try not to make jokes

[wraith harbor]

after some thinking, i was probably asking for too much salary. but im only looking for companies where i can get a salary bump so i guess its all good

[true arch]

hay guys i want to learn django can anyone suggest me a good channel on yt (preferred lang : hindi/ eng)

[marsh lake]

Netninja Django tutorials helped me when I was doing backend work.

[true arch]

thx

[rapid holly]

Is it ok if I quit uni and make some projects and start looking for jobs?

[vast shoal]

I think that seems like a bad idea.

[rapid holly]

It's Soo hard keeping up with everything:/

[vast shoal]

It won't get easier to get a job without a uni degree.

[rapid holly]

What if I get failed In exam 😭

Nobody likes failure

[vast shoal]

Improve your study technique and retake it

[hearty island]

never gotten one of these from deutsche - wonder what it means

[strange hull]

good luck!!!

[vale pasture]

Everyone is telling me to start a project but how do i even start

I'm an absolute beginner and am trying to create a blackjack game

[fringe sphinx]

Ask in #python-discussion plz

[buoyant seal]

SQL is language u can use to communicate with Database (retrive or insert data). Usable both from PHP and javascript, but more common from PHP.
PHP is scripting general purpose language. Common to write web backend in it, but u can make full stackish web site too in it.
Javascript is scripting general purpose language. Common to write web frontend in it, but u can make fool stuck web site too in it.

[uncut mesa]

is there any remote job for any Data Analyst or any other related job?

[peak halo]

you'd need to look on a job board website.

[rotund kindle]

Hey, I am familiar with Django, I can help you

[uncut mesa]

which link?

[hearty island]

linkedin is good

[rotund kindle]

Hello, I'd love to share technical insights and experience with people, happy to chat with you all

[blazing whale]

I'm a python developer, i've developed projects that utilise Frontends, Backend APi's, Voice Call systems, secure database lookup systems using NoSQL, SQL etc and many more automated systems to automate tasks and make jobs easier. I just wanted to ask if a university degree is required to achieve a good quality, role and paying job in the UK without the need of university, i only have a college BTEC degree and they're all merits.

[peak halo]

it's pretty challenging to get interviews when you don't have a degree. you'd probably have to find opportunities through networking.

every job you apply to is going to get a lot of applicants, and more of them will have degrees than they have time to interview.

[hearty island]

let's fucking go, CBOE hiring mgr wants to chat with me

[near ocean]

Also applied to cboe but i have no idea what happened to that app, it was a workday thing and its lost in the ether

[humble thorn]

Hello people!

im new here

[gray flare]

hey

[dusky bridge]

made it to the final round of a FAANG interview chain

pray for me fellas I need this bad

[gray flare]

damnnnnn congo for that,good luckkkkkkk

[hearty island]

yea idk why they're so interested in me

[strange hull]

I feel like I wouldn't be happy working at google, for some reason. too competitive? too much fluff? idk

[gray flare]

bruh

[dusky bridge]

https://tenor.com/view/money-money-money-money-dance-money-rain-funny-comedy-gif-11831260

[summer roost]

yeah, based on what I know of Google's culture, I'm pretty sure I would hate working there

[fringe sphinx]

Certainly with Google cracks down on RTO mandate and offers buyouts to some US-based employees

So begins the slow ascent from the heavens for Google.

[summer roost]

and of course Cory Doctorow had some choice words about Google in his PyCon US 2025 keynote 🙂

[peak halo]

from what I can tell, google's main products are so profitable that it can afford to be--and is--incredibly dysfunctional internally.

[fringe sphinx]

That's sort of the problem right now. The margins are getting narrower.

[summer roost]

Everything I know about how promotions are handled at Google makes me think that I'd really struggle to succeed in that culture. It requires you to aggressively sell yourself to management, often to the point of undercutting others' success to make yourself look better, even to level on an IC track. Yuck.

[fringe sphinx]

Or arguably, they're finally dealing with this by cutting out management layers. I don't know internally, just looking at the news reports - large cuts, but their fundamentals (profits) don't really show any signs of weakness.

[next plover]

ive heard very bad things about most dev cultures in FAANGS tbh

[white relic]

Google is the new Microsoft?

also apple is out of date too

[hearty island]

UBS & Truist both reached out. Deutsche too. idek how this is happening.

CBOE has me with the hiring mgr monday

[open ivy]

I am not sure how much of a network I need? I am aiming to get to the point that I average 7 different people good-faith reach out to me per week (once per day with a one-week cooldown). This goal is a long way away. But I think it will enough?

[white relic]

7 people (whom you know) contacting you, unsolicited, every week? Yes, I would think that's enough for just about anyone.
Maybe more importantly, is that a useful metric for the size of your personal network? I know people who I haven't talked to in 3 years, but I could call up tomorrow and would probably hire me if they had an open position. People who reach out to me regularly are usually trying to sell me something

I mean, I have a job, so I'm not regularly in touch with recruiters or whatever, I'm not sure if that's what you're talking about (but networking usually implies: contact made without an immediate goal)

[open ivy]

Humans are actually used to quite a bit more socialization than this. If people reaching out to me averages 10 min/day (sometimes just a message, sometimes a longer chat) and I spend 20 min/day reaching out to others, that is 30 min/day which is quite a bit below what we evolved under. So it is not an excessive goal, when thinking of jobs as a side benefit of a social life.

How can you tell that a 3 year old contact still cares about you enough to consider you? I have had friends for years stop RVSPing to my reach-outs which was suprising since we knew eachother for so long. Indeed, nothing is a gaurentee. If you are worried about whether or not they still have you on their radar, it won't hurt to check in with them once a month or so, even if just a brief message, ask them how things are etc.

[white relic]

I'm not sure how to begin with that.

I don't think I'm thinking of "reaching out" as the only form of socialization I get as a human being.

[open ivy]

Right now I am will hardly get any socialization with the outside world if I don't reach out. Meaning if I wait for others, I will be waiting a long time.

So "reaching out" is more like "reach out and have brief chat, or just check in with each-other, or schedule something"

[white relic]

"what we evolved under" presumably means some kind of family group <100 people, where you interact with a significant fraction of the whole group every day, that's a very different form of socialization than reaching out to (presumably) a handful of different people each day (i guess randomized, or on some sort of schedule?)

[open ivy]

You look for small communities which are somewhat closer to our evolutionary background of local communities. You reach out to people a little each day, focusing on people who are more interested in making friendships, etc. Maintaining a steady pace. Its a heuristic algorythim.

[white relic]

to answer the question, of course my 3 year old contacts don't care about me in the same way my family or close friends do, whom I do contact on a regular-ish basis. But I have a rapport with old coworkers, they know I do good work and am pleasant to work with. Those are high quality contacts that I have built up over my career so far.

When you're early career or switching careers, you don't have many high quality contacts, so you may be tempted to spend time acquiring many low-quality contacts (randoms you meet at job fairs, linkedin recruiters, realtors, ...) but I feel this is not a productive form of networking.

[open ivy]

So you are saying that early on, even while not employed, you acquired high quality contacts as well?

[white relic]

no, I didn't get my first job through networking, and I don't think it's typical to do so.

that doesn't mean I think it's pointless, but I don't think the networking-first approach is particularly effective for early career professionals.

[hearty island]

i got my job by applying. i did speak with one person from hofstra that works at my current employer, but that was it.

[open ivy]

It's gotten very hard to get a first job through sending out cold resumes, much harder than it was 10 years ago. So I still think that networking is the best use of limited time and energy as it doesn't have to be very good to "compete".

[white relic]

Yes, so you've said.
Everyone in my current team was hired through cold application, except me. I am the only one who already had a career in the field and relevant contacts.
I don't work in SWE, by the way.

[open ivy]

Maybe if there is a precise skillset you have? A particular in-demand skill rather than just "I am smart and motivated in my field and did complex projects of my own"? I could see a place and time that cold applications is better.

[hearty island]

obligatory sankey diagram

[white relic]

no, "I am smart and motivated in my field and did complex projects of my own" is how people get hired through cold applications.
Networkers get hired through "hey, remember that time we worked together on that project? Wasn't that a dumpster fire, amirite? So, what are you doing these days?"

[balmy spade]

Reading other's experiences is just fascinating.

[hearty island]

no wonder my parents think i'm nuts for trying to leave now

i've simply outgrown the role man

[white relic]

People who remember you're a good person to work with are worth much more than linkedin recruiters.

[dapper mantle]

Isn't LinkedIn just a social media platform now?

[balmy spade]

It always was.

[dapper mantle]

With an occasional job post?

[white relic]

linkedin now feels like facebook used to

[dapper mantle]

Yeah

[lilac yoke]

hear anything in paticular about Netflix?

[hearty island]

idk - all my opportunties came from linkedin 🗿

[lilac yoke]

The other FAANG companies have well over 50,000 engineers, netflix having 2,000 must be very different

[white relic]

netflix being part of faang is kind of an artifact of when the acronym was created

today it probably wouldn't be considered for top 5 list of anything except maybe places to stream 1-season canceled TV shows

[open ivy]

How do the numbers per market cap compare?

[lilac yoke]

In pay they're definitely in the top 5 list

[peak halo]

also, the FAANG acronym was originally about stocks, not the stature of those companies in the tech community

imo it should be MMAAA -- meta microsoft alphabet amazon apple

[hearty island]

3 ppl from my firm work there

[white relic]

circling back to this, I think there must be a better way to gauge whether your approach to networking is reaping benefits than whether people call you back reach out to you.
the non-family professional I get the most spontaneous messages from is my realtor, whom I like, but is probably not likely to have any leads on a job for me.

[summer roost]

Nothing that disposes me strongly against it, haha. I could potentially see myself working for Netflix

[harsh river]

i wonder what ned would say to that

[white relic]

If you're leaning in to the networking-first approach, but you don't have high quality contacts (people who know you professionally and can vouch for you as a colleague), perhaps you can leverage those contacts you do have, not necessarily to hire you, but for smaller things like resume feedback.
I assume you haven't given up on cold applications, so if you're not getting responses, your professional network would be a good place to start for finding out why

[next plover]

i had a mix of both, perfect combo

esp when you have half the degree of everyone else applying

[open ivy]

Right now socializing is very much on me, as I am almost always the one reaching out. This feels a bit unbalanced because why is hardly anyone contacting me? Measuring the "strength" of a network is more nuanced, however, and once I start integrating more into various communities the short-comings of my "reach-out" metric will get more apparent.

[next plover]

do you have a linkedin?

[open ivy]

Yes i recently got a little help making it look better. Still not sure exactly what looks good and what looks bad.

[white relic]

Let me ask a question. Why do you reach out to people? Like, what motivates you to socialize?

[next plover]

in my experience the main thing is making posts, i would post about my blog everytime i made a new one

over time you can build quite the portfolio (and experience)

[open ivy]

Lonliness and wanting to have interesting techinical discussions in roughly equal porportions. Getting a job is a long-term goal as well.

[next plover]

this server is a great option for the former tbh

[white relic]

So, if we assume other people are basically motivated by the same things, why would they reach out to you?
You need them; they (presumably, people who already have careers in tech) don't need you. It's an asymmetric relationship, which is why you're doing all the reaching out.

[open ivy]

Because there are other people in my situation, I would think. I am not special.

Anyone who is interested in tech and either isn't employed or can't discuss their ideas with co-workers for whatever reason can feel isolated.

[balmy spade]

Aren't most relationships, both professional and personal, asymmetrical in nature?

[white relic]

Sure.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing to be in an asymmetric relationship, necessarily.

[open ivy]

It's concerning how hard I find it to get an audiance. Not saying it needs to be perfect, but given how little people seem to reach out to me I think I need to work on social skills a bit?

[white relic]

It's likely. Many of us could benefit from improving our social skills.

But I think it's important to let go of the ideal that other people, in general, will ever put as much effort into relationship with you as you do into them.
Some people may. But most won't. (They may be busy putting their efforts into relationships with other people who probably aren't reciprocating either.)

[harsh river]

why do we keep beating this horse?

it's a pattern that calibayzone turns any convo into something about social skills? and this conversation repeats ad nauseum.

[white relic]

I'm engaging because the question (if I may paraphrase) "how do you know whether you're doing enough networking" was interesting to me.

You're not obliged to comment if it's not for you.

[balmy spade]

I also engaged because it was interesting.

[raven ember]

https://github.com/ivuqarism/password-gen

[strange hull]

make it gen the password for the password game

[raven ember]

gen for accounts

[modest kraken]

Do NOT use anything from the random module to generate passwords

[shell quiver]

hey lads! I have projects created in Jupyter notebook in vs code but the kernels keep crashing whenever I reopen the window. How to fix this issue??

[still condor]

Wrong channel, see #❓｜how-to-get-help and #1035199133436354600

[timid sparrow]

if I want to make money off coding should I do stuff on fiverr?

[royal wharf]

what are you going to offer service wise?

[timid sparrow]

probably stuff with PyQt

[royal wharf]

I presume you already have, but have you looked fiverr to see just how saturated that service is on there? I mean even if it is it doesnt hurt to just see if anything comes of it i suppose

[white relic]

if your basic needs are met and you want to make pocket money, sure.
If you need a reliable source of income to pay for food, housing, etc. then you should get a degree and seek a regular job, which will likely take a few years.

[kindred oyster]

<@&831776746206265384>

[timid sparrow]

I am looking for the fastest way to make money, currently I'm only 17 years old so I can't apply for a job

I do have a partial job, however it has nothing to do with programming and I might get fired soon, no idea what to do. I'd like to make at least 2k by the end of the year

[white relic]

Hi, this isn't a job board. Please read the #rules and channel descriptions. I have deleted the advertisement.

[deft herald]

Unfortunately, highly skilled jobs like programming are hard to come by at your age and with no qualifications like a degree. You can try freelance sites but the problem with those is that you're competing against people with lots of experience and skill living in very low cost parts of the world

[timid sparrow]

is fiverr a good freelancing site

[deft herald]

Fiverr, freelancer, up work. They're all fine I'm sure. If you're going that route, I wouldn't restrict yourself to one platform

But for real, I would focus on getting any job you can in your area and learning how to be a better programmer in your free time. You don't have to make money programming right now

[hearty island]

you can guide a horse to water - but you can't make 'em drink

literally making me tear my hair out.

[vapid jay]

Hey, I have a project and need a dev, does this discord have a job board?

[balmy spade]

No we don't.

[vast shoal]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[vapid jay]

How about like an official python website

For projects/jobs

[vast shoal]

That'd be LinkedIn

[vapid jay]

https://www.python.org/jobs/
This sort of website but for projects instead of jobs

[vast shoal]

If you need a dev, then it's a job, no?

[vapid jay]

Pretty sure this is meant for salary based jobs instead of projects

[vast shoal]

What do you mean by "project"?

Do you want someone to collaborate with you on your project for free?

[vapid jay]

You get paid per project not salary based, kind of like how freelancing platforms work.
I'm sure I've seen python had one but can't seem to find it.

[vast shoal]

I'm not aware of any page that specializes in short-term contracts for Python, but I'm sure you can use the one you linked above for that if you wish.

[vapid jay]

Alright, thanks

[soft vault]

I currently have the PCEP and am planning on getting the PCAP sometime over this next year before I graduate. I'm hoping these certs can get me into a programming job because I do not want to be stuck with student debt the rest of my life. Will these be able to get me into a programming job without a college degree?

[harsh river]

neither of those sorts hold any real weight as they're not recognized by any reputable organization in the industry.

[soft vault]

What else can I do then besides going to college

[pine sleet]

you can try to network with people or try to get into easier jobs like IT or QA and pivot into software engineering a few years down the line

it's incredibly difficult to get into SWE directly without a degree unless you get lucky or have good connections

[pine sleet]

but also if you go to school for CS you won't be stuck with student debt for long

[pine sleet]

by doing hands on stuff. like projects

[vapid jay]

I'm actually so stuck

[pine sleet]

people will say everything is bad. use pycharm if you like it

[pseudo goblet]

visual studio code

never had pycharm tho

[indigo axle]

Hey, I know intermediate python and am willing to learn new modules / packages, is it possible to find work (casual or formal) with this skill set, if not what else can i learn to increase my chances? i am looking to code on the side to support myself through college

[inner hemlock]

Pycharm is amazing don't listen to the haters

[rigid wave]

Im about to go on a job hunt spree in a few days. Do ya'll have suggestions for how do look for companies which typically are more on the chill side? (Im doing as masters so I prefer lighter workloads for now)

For example, I've heard that banks are usually chill, consulting companies and startups are not.

Any thing to look for during interviews, what to ask/watch out for?

Thanks

[inner hemlock]

Lots of startups are pretty chill, and a great career launchpad (I've worked at 3 startups). I wouldn't necessarily limit yourself to just banks.

[undone glacier]

Hey, need some career advice. As a junior, will experience with a startup that is essentially a GPT wrapper ever translate to anything?

They do hosting on GCP, they use Supabase + LiteStar (Python) but that's about it. Most of the stack is not industry standard (no Django, .NET, Spring Boot, etc)

[strange hull]

any experience is better than no experience

[rain spruce]

.

[violet prairie]

Is the PCAP an online based?

I’ve always thought about doing them but idk

[open ivy]

Social media attention is very unequal:
https://arxiv.org/abs/1601.07200
A Gini index of 0.9-0.95 depending on metric. What does this mean?

If you are middle of the road in popularity, you get about 10 times less than the average. If you are more popular than 9/10 people, you get the average attention and should expect to spend similar amounts of time reaching out and getting reached out to.

This means that social media is not good for most people to use when networking, unless they purposefully change the algorithm to foster more equality. I wish I had Gini Index numbers for all major platforms.

Online meetups, niche websites in your field, and other tools seem better for times when you cannot get to in-person events.

[pine sleet]

weird

[open ivy]

It actually makes sense. If LinkedIn actually cared about giving more people a fair share of followers, they would show me people with <1000 or so followers or even <100 who actually are in need of attention (so long as their profiles remain active). They never do that, they rarely show me people with <20k or so and I have seen numbers up to a million. The paper is still useful since it quantifies all of this, even if it is just "common sense".

One would think that helping people get their fair share of attention would be good for business since it leads to more satisfied customers. Like if it made it easy to get a job, I would be very happy to pay for premium and other bonuses. But my reasoning must be wrong since they are not doing that, they don't make it easy to stay socially connected as in getting one's fair share of attention. I wonder why that is so hard to monetize?

[pine sleet]

you'll probably use linkedin less once you get a job

[open ivy]

What is a website that I will need to start using more and pay premium once I get employed?

[vast shoal]

-# chatgpt.com

[brazen island]

Or more, my company is big on corporate branding and whatnot and I'm pretty sure if you'd repost all the things they ask via email it could make a big difference on your evals

[open ivy]

Not so sure, many companies have their own AI to protect proprietary code...

But my general idea stands: Joining a community or website that benefits from you getting a job but does not benefit from people looking for a job (which LinkedIn definitely does) is maybe a good thing.

Indeed many jobs found through networking are found in seemingly random places, such as a fantasy book club etc. And said clubs do actually benefit from having members employed, more money for donations and material purchases. It does make me wonder...

[vast shoal]

I am asked to like a lot of things

[open ivy]

Speaking of Gini Index, what is the value for applicants per job measured across companies?

Is it also super high?

[odd plover]

https://avolatt.myshopify.com/

[dull pelican]

can i land any jobs with brainf*ck

[eager violet]

does anyone know a place to get commissions from?

not necessarily python, any language.

[smoky quest]

fiveerrrr or upwork or any other freelancing website

[eager violet]

i seriously have no idea what to do i mean ive been struggling with tthis for more than a year, my intrests keep shifting around 3 stuff, cyber seucruity, python and cpp
I have been dallying with me completely losing intrest and leaving a language after a month or even less even tho im really pattionate about it, specifically cyber security.
I have been always told to back off c++ due to it being advanced and me being young and its really not helping that i have to keep shifting my focus
its like I have 3 different people on hibernate in my head taking shifts every 2-4 weeks

has anyone in here faced the same issue and if so how did u get over it?

i get overwhelmed by the amount of information and the amount of interesting stuff out there to learn, which leads to me switching between paths as whenever I reach something hard I think that this isnt for me and that I need to try and commit to this other path and it repeats on cycle

[smoky quest]

how old are you and what's your situation?

[eager violet]

im 14 almost 15, and what do u exacrly mean by whats my sitaution?

[smoky quest]

Like if you were in college or already having a job.
But being 14/15 already answers that for me

[eager violet]

its currently summer break for me it lasts 4 months

[smoky quest]

For now, my main advice would be:

• Make sure you have great grades so you can get into the college of your choice and have a great job and career
• Have fun and build stuff!

There is indeed tons of interesting things to learn. At 14/15, I wouldn't worry too much about your career and what to learn yet.
Instead, focus on trying things, learning and having fun.
So build robots, learn about cybersecurity, make games or even your own programming language.

The key to interest is also to not be bogged down in multi-year projects. So do small projects that are small and bounded in time so you do see progress and build momentum.

[eager violet]

will do

tysm, this helped alot!!

[fading crag]

hi, what are some projects i can do that might impress cybersecurity employers?

[smoky quest]

it depends on the role you are pursuing

[vapid jay]

Please who knows the best programming language one can learn before going into cyber security?

[pine sleet]

python is a good pick

[vapid jay]

Oh thank you, any other languages that might help?

[pine sleet]

probably any of the other mainstream ones

[vapid jay]

Oh like c++?