career-advice

[hollow oyster]

Cybersecurity is probably the field i know much lesser since in Data Science I got some knowledge of Pandas and Numpy

[cerulean bay]

can somone please gift me nitro boost for a month its my birthday and im alone..

[brisk quest]

Hello guys, little question if i postuled to a amazon offer and i managed to go to the second step of the application process the "online assessment" it mean than they gived to me a chance when they saw my cv ? Or everybody go to the second step in amazon

[deft herald]

I can't understand your first question. But the answer to your second question is: most likely not

[analog sun]

@bold plume we do not allow people to offer paid work as part of the server #rules

[hollow oyster]

Sorry to bother you but would you mind telling me which field is that? Pretty much I plan to go to Ethical hacking if I am choosing cybersecurity

Oh yes I know the malware analyst

Requires extreme knowledge about low level language like assembly. In other words it's reverse engineering

Hmmm I will consider thank you so much 😄

[blissful marsh]

guys I am speedrunning getting banned

okay yk what forget that please do not ban me maybe give me a warning or a 24 hour timeout or smth

[peak halo]

No. You deserve to be able to learn and talk about Python on this server. Do not squander your potential.

[blissful marsh]

yes sir

[orchid sleet]

What is the best career to take on in python coding?

[deft herald]

This horse is getting pretty beaten up.

the answer, of course, is "It depends"

[fringe sphinx]

The standard answer is: Software Engineering. Throughout a career, one might work in many different roles but a role isn't a career.

[elfin condor]

Yo, just a super beginner question. I’ve been seeing and hearing some stuff about tech and it’s future etc. And asking you guys might not be the best idea since yall most likely see a brighter future in tech than what it rly is. But as someone who has to soon choose between deep diving into applied maths or tech/ML I’ll take whatever insight I can get. In you guys’ expert opinion, how is the future of tech looking like and what branches are going to expand and which ones are going away?

[pine sleet]

AI/ML is definitely going to be a much bigger field than it was. Other fields won’t be too affected, AI is just gonna be integrated as a tool into people’s workflows

[gloomy slate]

hello

[gloomy slate]

Yes, but what about this quantum stuff?

[peak halo]

What about it?

[mental reef]

Well, AL/ML is also using applied maths, but pick it if you want to pursue a research career rather than dev

[hushed falcon]

<@&831776746206265384>

[still condor]

!ban @bronze granite spam

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @bronze granite permanently.

[dense mica]

do whatever you're really passionate about

you can be highly successful doing applied maths or AI/ML/SWE

[dense mica]

scaled-up quantum is still quite a way off and when it does become a thing, I think the people who are going to get employed to do it are going to be the people that have done phds in it first and foremost. It would be a lot more years before they start employing non-very-specialists

[elfin condor]

Yes but my degree is very hard and I’ve worked both extremely hard to get here and extremely hard to get in. So I wouldnt want to doom myself by picking a career path that’s going extinct

[dense mica]

no like my point is true lol, you can be successful doing either of those things. Those are both extremely in-demand and useful skills to have

[elfin condor]

Alr, but isnt the demand for the likes of SWE going down enormously, and even data scientists a bit

[dense mica]

if you're working extremely hard then you're likely to be successful doing either and more likely if you do the one you like the most

[dense mica]

people will tell you about how AI is bursting the tech bubble but most people who are saying this don't understand what these AI tools actually do or how they actually work. They are not capable of doing anything nontrivial. Sophisticated SWE skills remain in demand. The AI just speeds up the trivial parts

I'm not denying that there's been tech company layoffs in the last few years

But I think that the reasons for that aren't solely because AI is "taking over" (as I said, AI can't do nontrivial things, yet, and probably won't be able to for as long as it remains a "predict the next word" machine)

[dense mica]

your career options with SWE are probably more obvious than applied maths

I did pure/applied mathematics and I have good career options but they were less obvious than if I'd done something CS or SWE adjacent from the start

[elfin condor]

A lot less in my country. Since there is a harsh policy against firing people. So when the demand sky rocketed for entry level developers swedish companies didnt over hire

[elfin condor]

True. If I do applied maths it’d probably be to land a quant job or something or that nature. You’d know better than me tho, how’s the pay looking for non finance math roles?

[dense mica]

ah okay, so you're at less of a risk than if you were in the USA then. There's probably nothing you need to worry about if you're working hard (and I guess you are swedish?)

[dense mica]

I don't know, I'm a quant so I don't know about non-quant pay 😂 but I think it's generally good, I have a friend working at a mathematical consultancy who makes a lot (don't know what percentile the exact number corresponds to but it's definitely solid)

[elfin condor]

Hahaha yes I am

[dense mica]

Honestly I think the pay for any job that:

• Requires a specific high level skill
• Not a lot of people have that skill
  is going to be pretty good

[elfin condor]

How’s the pay as a quant? 😅 in sweden there’s a resentment attached to talking about politics, salary etc. If you’d mind sharing

[dense mica]

can't say exactly but yeah it's solid

it depends a lot on where you work though, ie USA salaries are at least twice European salaries (I don't think this would make me want to live in the USA though lol)

At my old company it was commonly known that the USA salaries were several times the European ones

[elfin condor]

Isnt SWE a pretty low level skill job? As in it doesnt rly warrant a 5 year engineering degree with a dual master in advanced maths and a an applied tech master

[dense mica]

not really. SWE is high skill imo

[elfin condor]

Why not? The salaries in sweden are depressing. You tax around 80% of your salary if you earn anything over the median

[dense mica]

I think doing these very elaborate and long degrees is a bit of a mainland Europe thing, like few people in my country does 5 year degrees and dual masters. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it

[dense mica]

I wouldn't like the USA as much and I earn enough in my country to keep me very happy

[elfin condor]

All engineering degree’s here are 5 years, and the one I’m in is an elite level one so you have to take a double masters

[dense mica]

wow

[elfin condor]

You’re not from the US?

[dense mica]

no I'm English

[elfin condor]

Oh, I thought you meant that is was commonly known in the american company you were working at

In that case did you not also take a very hard 3-5 year degree?

[dense mica]

I did a hard 3 year degree

degrees are significantly shorter in the UK than they are in mainland europe

[elfin condor]

Why are you saying mainland europe like we arent neighbours

[dense mica]

That's just the name? 😂 like you're not on an island, I'm just saying europe setminus UK

But yeah there's some really good universities in like france and switzerland that I wish I could've gotten into but unfrotuantely I didn't get accepted

[elfin condor]

Also, 5 year is only for engineering and medicine. Rest are 2-3 years

[dense mica]

ahhh okay yeah medicine is the long one here, it's something completely ridiculous like 7 years I think

I have a lot of respect for people that do medicine because I don't think I could ever commit for that long ahaha

[elfin condor]

Feeding into my anxiety. Did econ 2 years then switched to engineering. So 7 years for me 🥲

[dense mica]

wow lol

I don't understand how some people in Europe manage to afford to stay in University for so long, I was like basically completely broke when I started university 😂

[cloud wagon]

bro

hello

chat am i cooked? i am doing comp sci but its been 1.5 year and the only thing i know is cpp.

[vapid jay]

c++ is nice what's your question exactly?

[cloud wagon]

ive heard cpp is only good for game dev but game dev has very limited carrer options

any use case examples??

[white relic]

being a software engineer is not about collecting languages.
3 semesters in, and "only" knowing one programming language, is not alarming

typically (at least in the US) a lot of the first and second year program is gened, and non-programming stuff, anyway

[cloud wagon]

okay letme reword my question
i wanna build cool things that get me an internship in the summers. ive made a game (pvz) using cpp but want to do something else what do you guys recomend

[vapid jay]

language will hardly restrict your career
you should focus more on fundamentals especially in uni

[cloud wagon]

has anyone here done the gsoc internship?

[elfin condor]

It’s free, and I get all expenses like books, travel and material payed for

[hexed ferry]

yo

[full kettle]

is being coder hard

[peak halo]

yes

[naive shale]

thinking bout starting to make a resume and upload projects, what are all the avenues. Github Repositories, Resume, anything else? there

[dapper bane]

I am looking to learn a specific niche . I seek to cut competition and learn something solid that got my back .

heres my website https://x1vi.github.io/my-website/ just click on this and open normal mode to see all my info, my techstack, experience etc

[elfin condor]

What isnt

:P

[deft herald]

The worst part about being a coder is all the money i make and don't know what to do with

/s

Trying to think what's actually the worst part about being a coder. Maybe the fact that I have to be glued to my computer all day?

[dapper bane]

they dont pay us farely here

[fair token]

Guys I've been trying to land an Internship on any company, I've tried oracle, IBM, HP and Intel, I've applied to frontend and java dev positions for intern however I've been unsuccesful on all of them, in my cv I've stated I know HTML,CSS, JS, basic knowlwedge in react, bootstrap,git, github, linux terminal and databases and basic proficiency in java and javascript, to be fair I dont have any projects or anything, but what else could I need? like what's making me not even reach the interview phase

[peak halo]

the market is pretty tough right now. can you show your resume?

[orchid tangle]

Is anyone here familiar with ZLUDA?

[umbral tusk]

anyone want to work on an interesting project? we are uk company trying to build out a basic llm pipeline... any of you experienced with this?

[full kettle]

Is Kali Linux better?

[near ocean]

You cant advertise here, try linkedin

[white relic]

you need the space.

!rule 7

[inner wren]

Rules

7. Keep discussions relevant to the channel topic. Each channel's description tells you the topic.

[umbral tusk]

we need LLM help anyone up for it lol

[white relic]

fwiw, generally speaking it's frowned on to hit people with !rule immediately (not complaining about this instance, just for future reference to go easy on it)

[white relic]

and speaking of rules, as the server rules and channel description state, you may not recruit here.

[umbral tusk]

we are not recruiting. its a 2 man side project

lol i can see you all typing furiously

[white relic]

"anyone want to work on an interesting project?" is close enough that I'm not interested in debating the particulars.

[umbral tusk]

ok where can i go to ask for help on python project

[near ocean]

If you want people to contribute to an open source project there are 3 offtopics where you can talk about it

And by talk about it i mean beyond "anyone up for it"
Explain the project, where you need help, give links, let people decide if they want to help

[umbral tusk]

i am uploading 1000 pdfs and building a rag to parse them as cheap as possible given the scale

2 inputs
parsed_pdf
message_template

want to write a customised text message for 1000 inputs

thats it

[near ocean]

there are 3 offtopics where you can talk about it

[umbral tusk]

you just asked to 'explain the project' hahah

[near ocean]

Consider reading the rest of the message

[white relic]

if you're using python to do this, you can ask in one of the topical chat channels, or in #1035199133436354600
if your post is not about python, the only place it might be on-topic is in offtopic.

[umbral tusk]

ok thanks, that was helpful

[potent turret]

Hey guys, I’m 17 and I want to build my career in computer science engineering. I have no idea where to start, I'm quite flustered at all the various things to learn. In our school, they taught a bit about python, such as tokens in Python, expressions, conditional statements, looping statements, data types in Python, working with functions, file handling and connecting to MySQL from Python. For me at this stage, python is like I have learned certain formulas and using them for a given basic question. I HAVE NO CLUE on why this happens, Why does my computer do this, If I do that. I want to learn from the basics but have no clue from where to start. I want to build a career from this. Please tell me what I should learn more in Python, and what are the other languages I have to learn.

sorry for the big ass paragraph

yes after my 12th boards im planning to join a good college and get a degree in computer science

but I wanna have a head start

uhmm but I kinda wanna know what I am heading into

Right.., now I feel even dumber for not thinking through

Thanks a lot though
love you

[cursive valve]

Hey !
Where is mostly use python in the professionnal workplace ? The more a read things online the more i read that it's only use for data related things and that it's a language new and not really utilize by big companies. I'm pretty new and lost by all this tbh

[still condor]

Python is used for data analysis, machine learning and web development (among other things). It is one of the most popular programming languages. It's not new, it was created in 1991.

[fringe sphinx]

More info: FYI, schools publish a degree map for every degree: a list of courses (and electives/choices). And, for every course/class, there's a course catalog with the general description of them. You can then google specific courses by their course id and university name, and usually find example syllabi for them if you want a lower level detail

[fluid spindle]

What major should i learn? Idk what to choose

[white relic]

It's ultimately up to you, but CS (computer science) is a popular choice for people who want a programming related job

I did computer engineering personally, more hardware design focus

there are other areas you can focus on with different tradeoffs, such as DS (data science)

[pine sleet]

remember that it's okay to change your major if you don't like it (usually), a good chunk of people do so

[white relic]

but generally speaking if you're not looking beyond a bachelor's degree, and you want to do programming, CS is a good start

[fluid spindle]

Ye i mean i learned python for some time until i got to a point where i need to choose a path but the problem idk whats the ups and downs in each one

[analog sun]

@umbral belfry your message was removed for violating rules 6 and 7

!cban 1190598038838837301 Only here to advertise

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @umbral belfry permanently.

[peak halo]

for better and worse (yes, "and"), whatever kind of programmer you want to be, almost all of them are specializations within computer science. and you don't have to decide how you want to specialize right away.

[open ivy]

Anyone know of in-person SF Bay Area expert-friendly programming meetups? (Any language).

There seem to be plenty of events for beginners and college kids, but I would get much more out of the event networking-wise if it had a fair share of more experienced people.

[kindred thunder]

gm

I just started to study about python around a few a month a go
the way I learn are like copy write the code into the note at same time once I am done write the code i try to understand about it

am I doing it correctly?
oh and I also started to create some small project and do the same way like I , I find some project take a loke at the project then write it on my note

[pine sleet]

it's better if you write it yourself from scratch instead of copying it from somewhere else

[fringe sphinx]

Also: #python-discussion is probably the channel you want, this is "careers"

[kindred thunder]

ok so I will do:

1. find out what I want to build.
   2.read the doc or guide then combine the code into one?
   is this a correct?

[kindred thunder]

Ah I was not sure which channel should write

[open ivy]

Anyone know what websites are best for finding in-person events? Eventbrite and meetup.com don't work for me that well.

[pine sleet]

those are some of the biggest ones so i'm not sure lesser known alternatives will be more helpful

[kindred thunder]

alright thanks

[open ivy]

It seems so hard to find websites. Maybe random chess club cafes is better? There are 256 or so cafes close to BART.

[pine sleet]

those sounds like great places to find people to play chess with

[rigid robin]

Is data science / data engineering saturated, if so what's a non saturated field in computer science I can look into and see if I can pursue it

[open ivy]

I would say the least saturated skills are social skills. Be charming and likable and with a passable amount of knowledge and experience in tech you will succeed.

[chrome cedar]

Hey <@&831776746206265384> this looks like unapproved advertising and just kinda sus

ty mods, love ya

[tender thicket]

@green mist please don't advertise for dm things, this is a place to talk about work, not engage in it

[green mist]

Then, there is no place to introduce me here?

[tender thicket]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "introduce me" but if it involves getting attention for your services the answer is probably no

You can contact @severe widget for a more nuanced opinion

[green mist]

Thank you for your kind explanation

[charred hearth]

hello, nice to meet you, i am freash here. #career-advice

[novel umbra]

Hi all, does 3+ years of career break and exploring CS on my own makes me ineligible to work in IT sector ? 🙂 is it still worth to apply jobs or should i make my own things by what i know .. building projects and learning tools

[hazy crystal]

А я повыше закатаю рукава

[buoyant seal]

You forgot to switch language to English / Ты забыл переключить язык на английский 😛
Speaking in other langs than Eng is against the rules of a current community. English is current community lingua ^_^

[hazy crystal]

Ohh

[broken knot]

arrogance is not welcome here

[true turtle]

!warn 1300642822021447832 Please respect the channel's topic. You don't have a single on-topic message in this server. If this continues, you will be removed.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @hazy crystal.

[hazy crystal]

B-ut I accidentally

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[weak monolith]

I've been learning python and fastapi for quite a few months now. I've gotten comfortable using both. Are there any projects that I can contribute to on GitHub? I'd like to work on real life projects and I'm hoping that will teach me more than doing silly personal projects

[weak monolith]

Yea I could do that. Anything else other than that?

You've got a point. Thanks

[earnest dagger]

Hey guys Come and help me with a project please

[deft herald]

This channel is for career discussion. Please see

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[weak monolith]

What's it about?

[earnest dagger]

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to go against the rules of this channel. I'm just looking for people who do coding to help me in a project that's all.

[deft herald]

Sure. Just make sure to read the rules first and you're good 🙂

[earnest dagger]

Thanks Sir

[open ivy]

Right now I am pessimistic about my career, can't find a job.

So how do I prevent others from seeing it when I go networking?

Few people can hide it completely, we are not robots. Blocking this side-channel attack 100% is like trying to make an unpickable lock.

Instead, a more workable plan that plays within human limitations is to focus more on the cool tech things I am doing as a side project. Which are very fun and amazing (to me at least!). A little career pessimism will still leak through, but it won't be as destructive to making new friends. So networking can carry on.

[still condor]

!rule 6 9 @wild cave Please read our rules and the channel description.

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[dry shard]

Happy holi

[cedar kelp]

so my manager ambused me and point blank asked me to learn JavaScript. I have always puked at the tought of learnign JS but it looks like i have to so that i can keep my job. i wanted to remain a backend developer for the rest of my life

[deft herald]

I wouldn't call that abuse

I've had to learn so much stuff throughout my career that i didn't plan on. And you know what? I never regretted any of it

[open ivy]

Thankfully ideas transcend languages (with a few exceptions). So what you like about Python can somewhat survive in JavaScript.

Ambush not abuse

[cedar kelp]

i am ready to learn assembly but why JavaScript. i guess JS came back to get me because i gave it so much hate all these years

[deft herald]

Think of it as a compliment. Your manager is impressed by what they've seen out of you so far that they're entrusting this new task to you

[deft herald]

Maybe you can inspire a massive migration to typescript then

[open ivy]

I am more worried about Terraform.

That is a language that is intentionally stripped down and purposefully cannot do what assembly or JavaScript or Python can do.

[cedar kelp]

i dont think its a compliment. its a strategy to push me out without having to fire me. but if he is an a word i am be a bigger a word. i will learn JS and make sure i get into a project as a frontend resource then delay the time lines and wreck havoc in the sprint plans

[white relic]

a very mature and appropriate response to being told to improve yourself and expand your skills

[deft herald]

seriously lol

[white relic]

manager: manages
employee: I'll show you!

[cedar kelp]

learning AWS or CICD is expanding my skills, learning JS is like cleaning a toilet

[white relic]

we all have to learn things we don't want to, occasionally

[deft herald]

With that attitude, yeah

[cedar kelp]

if my manager is smart, he would never assign me to a front end role because i will never be as good in JS as i am in python. so why make me learn ?

how is learning JS going to help me or him ?

[deft herald]

It helps him by giving him one more resource that can do X

[white relic]

today I had a meeting where my manager wasn't available and I had to try to stand in for her and channel her knowledge about our projects while talking to people I barely know

definitely not a fun meeting. not my strength, not what I want to be doing with the rest of my life

but that's life. sometimes other people can't do it for you

what would it have done for me in the long run to sabotage her?

[cedar kelp]

okay, when the schedule is tight and a resource is away i have no problem supporting but i absolutely do not want to make that my skill.

[white relic]

if you don't practice the skill when there are resources and schedule, you won't have it to fill in when there aren't.

I get the sentiment, I really do. I avoided PHP like the plague and fortunately I seem to have outlived its heyday

but JS is still a useful skill to have

[cedar kelp]

i will learn javascript only upto the point where i am able to intelligently use the code chatgpt generates for me

[true harness]

yeah, it's not supposed to

[open ivy]

I don't even need to have a bad attitude to struggle to find a job.

[open ivy]

The problem is when the nature of the resource deployment changes and gets complicated enough that it needs a general purpose language.

But instead of having a "bad attitude" I would learn Terraform and then if the limitations became a big problem I would show how they are an issue.

[pine sleet]

terraform would probably evolve if deployment becomes that complex

or we'd have other tools

[digital fjord]

I'm sure there's some company somewhere generating terraform with Python, and it makes everything actively worse.

[open ivy]

I have seen two types of stories:

• Pulumni to Terraform: it forced people to not write whatever code they wanted to write and was good.
• Terraform to Pulumni: the problem got too complex and Python or JavaScript was simply easier.

[near ocean]

js hate is such a weird hill to have your career suffer on

[fast fossil]

why can't they use typescript though?

[ocean pawn]

looking for opinions on career direction & next projects; im probably gonna ask this in ai as well and use this as a base for my cv that ive been procasinating but if any experienced ppl take a read and have advice im all open ears

• For skills, I have an openedg python certification, free online machine learning and visualization tools (libraries like pandas matplotlib etc) certications from both kaggle and google developer's crash course, i can use react/ts/js to make applications (just havent done one)

• For personal work, I have alot of visualization examples, modular/OOP projects from bowling, blackjack, etc in python to commissions and plugins on game development platforms, mainly put on github and game dev portfolio website i made

• For collaboratively, besides highschool did a software development program; did a regional and state level leadership and skills competition and finished one year of uni so far (but i havent attend any type of job fairs which ik is kinda dumb but is unrelated to what im asking rn)

• For research, idk how to present math, but i understand enough for development up to neural networks even (i just havent made any yet)- like calculus, linear alg, gradients, etc; I have notes for the practical statistics for data science book i read, (book recommendations appreciated too)

My related work experience is this remote job where im prompt engineering and a sales/management internship which helped business and client interaction perspective a ton (marketing, conversion, churning, etc. things that might be desired for a data analyst/scientist)

I want to apply to something for this summer whether an internship, job, etc but ive just been sponging up knowledge and the field is super broad; i dont really know what type of roles to aim for. Based on my skills I think its very driven to **apply **for data scientist roles, but do they only look for graduates? are entry level too saturated? Should I go for machine learning (engineer?) ive learnt the stuff from ml to neural networks underneath the layers: the regression calculations, classifications, the importance of datasets, the whole psychology aspects; gathering the data etc etc etc etc- the only difference i feel most probably have is experience, making models all day; should i start practicing the use of existing models?

Asynchronous to beginning career search, should i and is there a reason people grind out leetcode (just to pass tech interviews at big companies?) or what kind of project should i do that can either show my understanding of these things for applying, or actual build new skills (desired in the market)

[white relic]

You don't mention your education.
No degree? An unrelated degree? Started but not finished? Still in high school? Mid-life career switching?

Also, where you are in the world often makes a big difference to good advice.

[ocean pawn]

i did in collaborativity, i just graduated hs two years ago, and during that senior year i was also in a software development early career program, and ive done only one year of university so far for a B.S. in comp sci, i plan to go back this fall most likely to continue and im american, north central rn and dont know much ab relocation but i know cs is more saturated in different parts of the county, i think theres alot of remote oppurtunities tho right?

[ocean pawn]

Also i heard github contributions are good im gonna start those to get more tensorflow or pytorch experience

[vapid violet]

I would also be upset if I accepted a non-webdev job, and was later told that my new role would be webdev

[vapid jay]

@mods get him

[white torrent]

<@&831776746206265384>

[raw shell]

💀

[still condor]

!cleanban @jaunty haven scam

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @jaunty haven permanently.

[vapid jay]

Can't do nothing no more without bots somewhere 😦

[static fiber]

so uh guys

[near ocean]

You cant possibly expect to work on a web product and not have to learn js

Imagine the opposite for a moment, a frontend dev thinking their world is ending because their manager asked them to learn a little python or java or c#
Ridiculous

[swift patio]

@brazen loom ??

[swift patio]

did bro get groomed

and hacked

[modest panther]

yes

[peak halo]

@dusk walrus your message was removed for soliciting DMs and implying that you were seeking employment.

[open ivy]

Also learning JS does not mean it will be a constant grind. It could just be one project or a simple task.

If someone says "I don't my job to eat me alive" that is valid. And we all need to balance work and life as it is not our companies job to do so.

But if someone says "yuck this is ugly" that is not an excuse. They are being paid. I would love to be paid to work on JavaScript or Python or C++ or any popular general purpose language.

[wispy lichen]

hi for those in the industry, do you guys use scrum for project management?

[brazen island]

I have in the past. Nowadays I’m on a team where nobody knows what scrum is, but it’s unironically “agile” as per the manifesto

From my limited experience with scrum, some teams forget why they’re doing it and they’re just going through the motions, doing a bunch of meetings and filling in documents

[wispy lichen]

i was going to ask for some project management framework suggestions but im guessing it prob just depends on the company one works for?

[brazen island]

It does, and I’d say reading scrum best practices is probably a probably a nice place to start. The vast majority of the ideas are good 😄

[wispy lichen]

ok ty for the input! :)

[chrome cedar]

From my experience no one knows the difference between or actual descriptions of agile, scrum, kanban, etc.
The general gist is to use agile, meet every day, and use some point system to determine effort required for tasks

[main minnow]

guys anyone know any student discount for certification? or maybe free plan for student, i am using coursera free trial 7 days, but it isnt enough for me to complete all the module, now this is last day i only reach module 3

i am college student

[summer roost]

Don't bother, programming certifications are close to worthless, the college degree is worth drastically more

[main minnow]

but i needed certification for my college scholarship, they said they can help me if i got some certification or winning some contest, and they will post it in college with exchange for scholarship

;D

i already on alibaba cloud certified developer for now, but it still under review ;D, and i think its not good if i only got 1 certificate right now ;D

[summer roost]

Don't know what to tell you then. I've never heard of a scholarship that wants you to have a cert, let alone one that doesn't tell you which cert it wants you to have

[main minnow]

there is a lot;D its kinda normal in here, maybe its just not in ur country

[wintry dirge]

These certifications are pretty good and beginner friendly, don't know if they have student discounts though
https://pythoninstitute.org/pcep

[main minnow]

thankss man, well its kinda pricey tough ;"D, i try asking for a discount

[last harness]

Hey, I am Veer 19 year old python developer from India, I am looking ways to make money as a developer while working on a a freelance project or getting an internship or a job, I have tried different freelancing platform like upwork, peopleperhour etc. But unable to get a good project as of now, Can Anybody suggest me something on How Can I monetise my skills as a student entrepreneur !?

[fleet iris]

is programming hard

it seem very easy

[fleet iris]

hi veer, are u enrolled in sort of degree program as of now? what is your current level of experience, what are the projects you have worked on and last but not the least what roles or job oppoturnity are you looking for.

[white relic]

as with many things, it's easy to grasp the basics, but it's a lifetime of study to become a master of the craft

[fleet iris]

with google and AI its way easier than other fields

like we don't need to learn a lot of theories it is more like cycling

[white relic]

there's a lot you don't need to learn, especially in a junior role

I didn't need to learn how to make coffee, but it still enhances my life

I could have stayed at my last job and avoided learning a lot of things

[near ocean]

Hobby cycling is nice and easy but have you tried professional cycling?

[buoyant seal]

...than more u dive into enterprise, especially in scripting languages, then it is harder 😏
hundreds thousands / millions code lines of complexity
that could be or could be not having any typing/unit tests or any documentation at all
Programming/code is a thing that can scale in complexity to infinity
and in average people code often with all the shiniest things to the limit of brain ability to comprehend it

Coding without reaching complexity limits for brain comprehensions is already an art of a super professional developer

[last harness]

I am completed my Diploma in Computer Science from India and currently working as a AGI Researcher for a Hong Kong based project, Working on Machine Learning and exploring some AI tools to build products, Looking for paid gigs 🙂

[buoyant seal]

As a student i think i managed often to fail at 2-5 thousands code lines reached. already at that point code could be overly too complex to continue further and was easier to start from zero again.
I saw/reviewed some projects that managed to push it to 30 thousands code lines until they reached technical debt to their code in such amount that even the original author of the code could not continue it further (They did not do any typing and unit testing or documentation, and just did garbage in Django i think or it was FastAPI)

At work we manage millions code lines. And having plentifully of different things to help us managing it easier and within human sanity levels

So... Coding is easy.
Coding well without reaching difficulty complexity for its comprehension at large amount of code (dozens thousands/hundreds thousands/millions code lines).. is rare skill
Coding small amount is easy from zero. Coding more at large amount is harder.
Coding something architectured can be easy from zero, managing-refactoring already existing code base and guiding to anything new can be bloody a lot of time and effort
Coding is infinity scalable in complexity and time effort to do it -_- Doing it well... is a big challenge. Writing crap in small amounts is easy

[buoyant seal]

https://fifthbarrier.github.io/Navmap/#q=
here is a shiny example why programming can be often hard (Because people code badly)
Beautiful interactive map that loads data from files, parses and renders on runtime
All code in a single file with Jquery manipulating browser DOM in a global way with plentifully of regexing and finding items by DOM identifications
https://github.com/fifthbarrier/Navmap/blob/main/scripts/main.js

Can you make sense of its code linked above?
I honestly can't make sense of it and not wishing to make sense of it 😅
Just 2175 code lines here, but they are killing me with complexity.
Yet i dealt with much larger amount of codes, 10 and 100 times more

[buoyant seal]

To be a bit less depressing, fighting tech debt is possible ( people like Martin Fowler wrote book Refactoring for that ), designing code well is possible
But main part is writing readable code, and having it unit tested
and could be nice writing it in static typed preferably language where everything like that for 100% coverage (Golang, Java/Kotlin, C# can help a lot here)
Some people invented Domain Driven Design (book named like that by Eric Evans) to have code even better designed
some people like Martin Fowler wrote Clean Architecture on the topic of writing better code
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#CodeCompleteAPracticalHandbookofSoftwareConstruction
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#UnitTestingPrinciplesPracticesandPatterns
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#TestDrivenDevelopmentByExample
Also investing in monitoring, error catching, tracing, profiling, logging, metrics, alerting systems, make situations easier too

[fleet iris]

hm makes sense

[fringe sphinx]

I think of it like art. It's easy to draw a picture, but takes practice and study to become a very good artist.

[buoyant seal]

To be even less depressing
Devs like Alexandr Mosolov in a single dev face managed to build such beauty as game StarSector (made in Java) that has community for hundreds mods
or Notch is famous for making Minecraft (in Java) (again in single face pretty much) that has modding commudity for hundred thousands mods 😄
Or Linus Torvald is famous for making... well Linux. (in C)
It is not impossible making popular products well in demand. But it takes a good combination of skills, chosen well technologies and very good ideas to do so

All that effort is very time consuming though. Good (in demand) products eat away time and energy like black holes (consuming even years of time)

As we mentioned before... all dev products scale infinity in size,complexity and features. And single project could eat away entire lifetime of a single person if it is big enough.

[timid pumice]

Ngl Linus Torvalds also made git

Which I’m 99% sure he did in like one day the original build

Idk if they all have to eat away years of time, bc Git is used by every programmer in the world maybe even more than Linux

Obv Linux runs servers and phones but ppl using it daily

[fringe sphinx]

The important point is that: many products were the child of a single focused engineer, and then matured/enriched/completed through the effort of many people.

Python, too.

[timid pumice]

In most fields also

Ideas r just mainly solo

[lilac sundial]

Do i have to learn like 8 python libs top to bottom to be a great python dev

[open ivy]

People over-emphasize learning tools.

For my personal project, tool learning is a side effect. The hard part is figuring out how to write my code optimizer code, designing the physics engine, making useful tools to test and debug stuff, etc.

Nowhere is "learning a tool" the rate-limiting step. I use Numpy/Numba and they are nice tools and well worth learning, but that is a tiny part of the overall project.

The biggest difficulty I have to get a job is social skills. Sure, I can show my passion and talent. But how do I engage others? How do I demonstrate it without being egotistical? Who do I talk to, where do I go to find the right people?

[peak halo]

No, you need to know how to read the docs for the kind of libs that your job involves.

[open ivy]

Its very hard to find a good in person event to meet tech people, even in the Bay area.

I think they are hiding themselves from a flood of people who want to get a job? If they said "tech meet up" it would be taken over by people who are boot camp kids etc.

How can I get past this filter?

[near ocean]

there are some really popular and useful libs/modules to know though, itertools, collections, etc

[open ivy]

Yes looking at what a library can do is useful.

[sullen gazelle]

Guys , I happened to see a post on Internship in linkedin. As I'm looking for an internship i applied for it. Now I got an internship offer letter in the mail . They also specify to share the offer letter in linkedin and add captions of them . The internship is of 1 month. Should I do the internship. Is this internship a scam !? I feel like this is scam for publicity. Till now they haven't asked for money. But from my research they have asked for money while providing the certificate .

I will provide the internship letter here.

[peak halo]

have you spoken to a human on the phone, and are they offering money to you in exchange for your labor during the internship?

[sullen gazelle]

No , I got a whatsapp message asking about offer letter and whatsapp group. They haven't mentioned the stipend .

[peak halo]

to me, it looks like this is a scam where the "internship" is actually some kind of bootcamp.

[open ivy]

Remember that the scammers always will get back to you.

[sullen gazelle]

They shared some pdf containing tasks and asked to select any 4 and complete it before 15 April. There is no trainer or anyone.

This is the only interaction I had .

Should share the pdf or its link

[lilac sundial]

Dang even linked in got these types of weird paid internships

Heyy since when do i have voice certified role . Noice

[sullen gazelle]

This is the pdf they shared.

What you guys saying? Should I do this internship!?

[analog sun]

@edgy bay your message was removed for violating rule 6 regarding advertisements

[brazen palm]

there's a company i heard on this podcast darknet diaries called codec which is basically a scam company is it the same!? or😀

[edgy bay]

I wasn't looking to promote anything! just someone to do a project with, sorry!

[tough laurel]

real python server or fan based ?

[analog sun]

This server is not run by the PSF, it is a community server

But its probably the largest server for python. We are also listed on the PSF's site: https://www.python.org/community/#:~:text=Python Discord,and to join.

[gritty rivet]

A quick Google search shows these guys are known scammers. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/mrahmadhassankhan_scam-codealpha-internship-activity-7198837954071396352-jTJ2

[vapid jay]

How would one become a software engineer?

[pine sleet]

the process generally starts by going for a cs (or related) degree

[vapid jay]

How can I self-learn?

[peak halo]

in many ways, all learning is self-learning. There are resources on our website that I'll link you to in a moment. But keep in mind that especially in the current job market, a lot of employers won't even consider applicants who don't have a degree.

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[open ivy]

I was told to use a hybrid online in person networking strategy where you look for local online groups and take it from there.

Is this a good idea? It can be hard to find nearby people if the Internet is global.

[open ivy]

I think it's a minority of resumes that sail right through the system. If so great! But if someone is degreeless and passionate, they can show that (show, don't tell) networking and the rules can bend.

[white relic]

For someone who can't find a job, you have a lot of opinions about how to look for one.
Yes it is true that some people get jobs without a degree, but it is unlikely. Yes networking helps, but people with degrees also know that. "Passion" is hard to quantify and, for many people, hard to demonstrate. Skipping the basic steps that other candidates have done and assuming passion and hustle will allow you to jump the line is main character syndrome.

[open ivy]

I don't expect FAANG or a dream job or anything.

I do have a degree just not in CS. And yes a degree helps.

I really only have two strong opinions about getting a job which is to do both:

• Personal projects.
• Human interaction. A degree helps here as well!

Beyond that i am not sure the best strategy, like where to go to meet experienced dev people. Few people on that forum seem to have any ideas for this either.

Once I break this barrier I think I will get a job fairly easily.

[strange socket]

should I take Business Comm before or after Academic Writing? I would rather not take them in the same sem because English is not my strongest subject, and I feel like I would struggle significantly with doing both at the same time

[chrome cedar]

Not a python specific career question but I wanted advice from here
I've been pretty ambitious and aggressive in either getting a better raise / bonus / promotion or otherwise finding a new job, but there's like 2-3 people I know who just work in low paying jobs and do nothing to improve themselves
like what gives, don't they want either more money or an easier job. They had plenty of opportunities to negotiate better comp or apply elsewhere, or go learn new stuff to either be better at their job or to get a better job elsewhere - but they don't

[white torrent]

I mean, if someone is happy just doing what they're doing, that's up to them at the end of the day

[sly ibex]

Does anybody know how long a foundation course in university is in the UK?

[white torrent]

A mate of mine did a foundation course for 2 years. One thing I will add though, if you want to be qualified enough for most places to have you in the UK, you'll probably want to do a full course

Foundation courses usually let you fast track into a degree though by skipping the first year, which is what he did

[chrome cedar]

But I know for a fact these people are not satisfied, unless they're going out of their way to lie to me about how much they enjoy their job

[white torrent]

Even if they're not, as long as you're happy with your own job and the progress that you're making in your own career, does it really matter how happy those around you are in their jobs? Unless of course it's affecting other aspects of their life or yours

[chrome cedar]

I'm just curious on the mindset. I don't expect people to grind every day outside of work in learning things, I'm just trying to understand how a software / support engineer greatly dislikes their job, but does nothing about it

[white torrent]

There’s a whole bunch of reasons, for some people their job is just something that pays the bills and nothing more. For some it’s a passion, for some not, everyone is different

[sly ibex]

The reason why I have to go in a foundation course, is that they put me on a National Foundation Diploma for BTEC level 3, and I got low grade in maths aswell.

I am doing a full time BTEC level 3 course.

[sly ibex]

So he skip the first year but still managed to get into a degree program?

[velvet marten]

I am python

[inner wren]

No, @velvet marten, I am. And also, this is the career discussion channel, so make sure all your messages here are about that.

[velvet marten]

I am python you are bot

[vapid jay]

i am the real python

[lost cypress]

Hey random question,

So when a recruiter tells me the range of my possible salary during my interview process. Does anyone maybe know who would usually be making the decision on where my base salary lands within that range?

Is it just one hiring manager or a collective decision kind of thing

(Asking generally cuz ofc it might vary company to company)

[lost cypress]

anyone?

[fast fossil]

btw, you're asking for something general while at the same time acknowledging that it can vary a lot depending on factors, which makes it... well, not general

[open ivy]

I have 49 followers on LinkedIn.

I get email LinkedIn recommendations for people in my field to follow. All fine and good. Except that they always have tens of thousands of followers. They don't need any more!. I could not keep track of more than a few hundred.

Can I change the settings to recommend me people with, say, under a thousand followers only? They will actually see me and honestly this is better for networking.

[lost cypress]

thank you for your contribution to my question

[kind orbit]

yo chat, i been feeling overwhelmed with all these frameworks, i'm good with the basics like transformer, fine-tuning with lora, rag and stuffs, but Jobs demand agentic frameworks, i just learned langchain, and now ppl are bashing it and moving to llamaindex and pydantic ai and stuffs, and langchain docs are not much helpful too, langgraph feels like a mountain, and i need to get a job ASAP.. can someone please help?

I want to build production ready projects before i apply for stuffs..( P.S. I have 1 year Research Intern exp in a Uni, and I have published a research paper (LSTM based))..still i need a production ready project to showcase..and these frameworks are all confusing..

[plush summit]

Some ppl Just don t have the mindset and don t like change did some gardener stuff on the side in summer and there was like one dude Who was Just too lazy to wake up earlier to do security for example wich paid way more and is also a pretty easy job

[weak monolith]

Hello everyone, I've been looking for jobs as a fresher and was wondering what kind of backend projects you'd expect from a fresher? I'm currently using Python and FastAPI

[near ocean]

1 year in uni

Also foundation courses are the closest thing to a scam the unis here have to offer
Do you a levels and get in the right way, dont pay for a foundation year

I accidentally walked in on a CS foundation year lecture in my first year of uni and mfs were being taught addition and subtraction

[white torrent]

Yeah the foundational course allowed him to start his degree from Year 2 instead of 1

[sly ibex]

Seriously? I thought they be teaching heavy maths in preparation for a CS degree

[sly ibex]

Ok

[hearty totem]

Sorry to break it to you but most people just copy paste the tutorial from the website of the latest framework and then just adapt that to their project. Most frameworks suck. They're good at one things and terrible at another. One learns to just wrap the framework into something and then change the framework when the old one gets too buggy. These days the "new framework" is just a refactor of the "old framework". The usefull skill here is the wrapping ability to switch frameworks with ease. And that's always code you write yourself to adapt the framework to a project

[kind orbit]

Yeah, I get that. The real skill is adapting, not just following trends, Any tips on structuring it so switching frameworks later isn't a hassle? anyway thanks for your insights! i appreciate it!!

[open ivy]

I do think tool development is a useful skill since it generally requires a deeper understanding than tool use. AI doesn't really know how to do it. Just be careful not to over-scope the projects!

Don't forget about social skills! That is whats holding me back. It's just hard for me to get people "on my side". It's also hard to even find a good venue, online or in person, as most events are geared toward beginners. If you have these skills you have a big edge.

[sly ibex]

If you do or anyone who see this knows, summarize what do they even teach at a foundation course?

[white torrent]

The 2 year one in the college in my town usually teaches general programming concepts, logical reasoning, some of the more basic maths you would need for programming

Again every course is different but at least here, it teaches you everything you would get from 1 year in a uni course but over 2 years, I imagine for people who may not want to go the full way through a degree or those that need a slower intro to the field itself

If you reckon you could do it all in one year instead of 2, you would be just as well enrolling in a software eng degree

But I obvs can’t speak for foundation courses/degrees everywhere

[sly ibex]

The issue is, that I dont meet the requirements to get onto a CS degree program straightaway in UK. They require 3 A levels at least and a grade 5 and above in maths.

[sly ibex]

Yes they are all different.

[white torrent]

In that case yeah a foundation course sounds like your best bet in

Keep an eye too - sometimes there are schemes you can do anywhere from a few days to a couple of weeks and they offer you a reduced entry cost into a degree, such as lowering grade boundaries or giving you priority in the case of being waiting listed etc

[sly ibex]

ok

[fringe sphinx]

It's hard to achieve both breadth and depth at the same time. The thing about academia is; it's ok to not know everything about your field (because you can't). Pick a goal: either breadth or depth, and emphasize that

[sullen gazelle]

@peak halo dude could you share the resource link in DM.

[peak halo]

#career-advice message

[sullen gazelle]

Guys , can anyone help me with my resume. I have created one , plz review it and guide me to make it better.

[ocean pawn]

personally i think the resume is nice others with more experience may say different; id say make a cv going more in depths of the projects, any extra things you did throughout education, and maybe certifications/courses of skills like languages- since you don't have work experience shown here

[sly ibex]

The layout of this resume looks clean and nice.

[brisk swift]

hello everyone, i could really use some advice regarding my career, so basically currently im a 2nd year BBA student and decided to take my further studies in data analyst filed. I am new to IT field even though i had some experince in java but to learn data analytics this is new, so my current course of plan is to learn python and maybe R from my hometown(either online or offline) and then once my 4th sem is over i'd move to a city with better resourses for a couple of months, in order to save alot of money and time by learning pyhton later there, i thought it'd be better if i learned it from here. Since im new i dont really know how much time it'd take for me to learn python and if i should self learn without a certificate or maybe i should do a certificate to show the coaching that i'd join later as a proof of my learning, or maybe if there's some exam based certificate that could help. Please let me know what you all think, some guidance could really help.

[sullen gazelle]

Thank you for reviewing and guidance☺️

[fringe sphinx]

Learning programming is straightforward. You can spend a few months learning the basics and then decide from there. See the top pinned post in #python-discussion and ask questions there to get started

[true grotto]

Is the PCEP certification worth pursuing? I've heard it holds little value in the community but I can't afford to return to school for a degree.

[pine sleet]

it's not really worth it

[brazen apex]

Are most people here industry professionals or students?

[summer roost]

by "here" do you mean Python Discord or the #career-advice channel?

[brazen apex]

Both

[brazen apex]

99% of the time they will offer the bottom of that salary range

[vapid violet]

For this server you can get an idea based on the survey results
https://pydis.wtf/~joe/survey-results-2024.html

[open sedge]

Hello!

I'm aiming to be a software developer.

Right now I need to upgrade my math to 30-2 over the sunmer.

Is there a online course that I can take for 30-2 for free?

[brazen apex]

Just scanning through it looks like vast majority are hobby or students

[summer roost]

for this channel, most of the people asking questions are students, and most of the people answering them are professionals.

[brisk swift]

thank you sirr lemme check it out

[dense mica]

I'd get rid of the icons, I think it would appear more serious without them. I get that it's personal preference though.

"interests" and "skills" can be combined.

"Profile" section isn't customary where I'm from, is it customary in India?

[vapid jay]

Us freshers r fucked bro. Same boat as u. Did u do any projects?

[open ivy]

If only I found the right community and social interactions worked better, I think I could get a job.

It's difficult. For example, which events do I go to? Not many people in this forum have an answer because there is no clear answer. Human meet up points are still largely word-of-mouth (even today) and without good social skills people are less apt to recommend such spaces.

Projects are also important, they synergize with social skills quite well. Degrees are also good places to meet with humans and boost the resume. We just cannot neglect that to get a job a human has to do us a big favor.

[near ocean]

I cant tell if youre asking for advice when you post like that or just being rhetorical

[hollow oyster]

Am I cooked

[thorny quail]

Hello

[fringe sphinx]

I think you're asking the wrong question. The question should be: what knowledge do you expect for an entry level/college graduate SWE applicant? The primary purpose of a project is to learn, not solely to put something in a resume.

[lost cypress]

anyone have advice in terms of negotiating an offer? (specifically a SWE new grad offer)? I honestly don't know much about it or how to go about it

[brazen apex]

Try not to provide a number first. Best to ask them to provide a range.
You can stall by saying things like "I need to know more about the deliverables or TC package before I can give a number"

When push comes to shove and a number has to be given, don't bother giving a range. Give a number, a number that you will accept. If you give a range, they will offer you the lowest of that range.

Also if they ever do give you a range, expect them to offer you the lowest of what they provided

[lost cypress]

How about if the recruiter gave me a range during the interview process?

[weak monolith]

Been doing some generic projects. Like, a library API, social media API, etc

[lost cypress]

Yeah that’s honestly what I’m expecting but this offer is for faang and with the range they gave me it feels like I’m getting underpaid compared to what I’m seeing is common

In terms of the research I’ve done online at least

[brazen apex]

The market is absolutely trash right now, we have 0 leverage

[lost cypress]

Fair enough

[weak monolith]

By doing a project you're bound to learn and gather skills that are required for the job. That's what I meant

[brazen apex]

Just earlier this week, I provided a number and they didn't try to negotiate, they just ghosted me. There are probably 10 other people lined up about qualified as me.

[lost cypress]

wtf

Wait like u got an offer, then u gave a number and got ghosted?

Or do u mean u provided a number during interview process

[brazen apex]

I didn't get an official offer, but they told me they thought I was a strong candidate, asked some questions, one of them was my expected rate. Then nothing after that.

[lost cypress]

Interesting

[brazen apex]

So in my case, I didn't really get a chance to play the game, gave my normal rate and it was too high, and they moved on.

[true harness]

are you sure you were rejected because of your salary ask

[brazen apex]

I can't think of anything else, all the other questions were logitics questions

I'd say just play it safe for now, you can always move up later

[weak monolith]

Just out of curiosity, are you a fresher?

[brazen apex]

In term of programming yeah. But I have 7 years of experience doing business analyst and independent consulting

[weak monolith]

Oh I see, pretty cool that you took time to learn a relatively hard skill called programming

[brazen apex]

I just find it a natural progression. I know the business side, and got into low code tools. Decided it's probably worth it to dive deeper.

[weak monolith]

Mhm

[lost cypress]

If I just finished a final round interview for a full time role, is it common that the salary negotiations would take place in the call the recruiter gives me IF I get the job?

[brazen apex]

Depends on the company but yeah they'll ask you for your expected salary at some point.

[peak halo]

By "recruiter" do you mean an employee acquisition person who works for the company directly?

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, good... so my advice then is: do projects that expose you to adjacent software engineering skills... from GitHub to publishing in pypi to ci/cd to cloud services to testing and documentation. Being able to get things done is more important than knowing any individual tech skill.

[weak monolith]

Ikr! Getting things done is so important

[fringe sphinx]

Usually (my experience is US centered): the company makes an offer via an offer letter. Sometimes the recruiter will tell you the salary, sometimes they'll simply say theyll send you the offer letter. The offer includes the 'package'; salary and additional comp (stock/etc), vacation, health care and any other benefits.

[fringe sphinx]

You don't 'negotiate' the salary or anything until you've have a moment to read the full offer. Don't let someone else force you into a decision: just say, thank you, I'll read over the letter and think about it. Be neutral, and give yourself time to think. Recruiters do this for a living, you don't. You're at an experience disadvantage, so dont be too eager to talk.

[weak monolith]

Say you're interviewing a fresher, what would you like to see as his project?

I mean an example of a "good" Project

[fringe sphinx]

Don't really care. It's their ability to talk about it, to explain their design decisions... their engineering process... etc.

[weak monolith]

I wish more recruiters were like you T_T

[fringe sphinx]

Just hired someone with a totally irrelevant project. But, it was a long running project over 2 years working with a faculty advisor.

So, duration is often a good sign... not just a 'I whipped this up in 2 weeks'

[weak monolith]

Yea especially because most people never finish their projects lol

[fringe sphinx]

Technically, since I do data engineering, I'd love to see Sql/dbt/orchestration (airflow, dagster, etc) + various data things. I just rarely see it.

[weak monolith]

I see, thanks btw

[brazen apex]

What's a good project to break into this field?

[fringe sphinx]

Its breadth... what I'd want to see if familiarity with databases, common data modules like Pandas, different data formats (ie; ingesting json data), maybe some data analytics projects (or a Kaggle project), etc

[brazen apex]

So let's say I am basically 100% new. Starting with Python. Learn sql. Data warehousing concepts, and then orchestration, and cloud platforms? Is there a way to tie all those together into a project? Do I need users, or just a visualization project.

[still condor]

!rule 6 9 @shut bane Please read our rules and the description of this channel. We don't allow looking for or offering jobs

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[lost cypress]

Yes my bad, a recruiter as in the one who has been my main point of contact throughout the interview process and schedules my interviews while in contact with the Hiring Manager and Engineers of the team

[peak halo]

In my experience, that person will tell you what salary is being offered, and you can tell them if you want more

(though I'm not the one to tell you how to have that conversation)

[lost cypress]

Makes sense.

Similar to what BillyBobby said, I am thinking maybe say thank you and such if they call me saying they are extending an offer, then also mention that I would like to take time to think over the offer and reach back out soon of course

that's pretty normal right?

[peak halo]

They'll give you time to "consider the offer", which they know means to potentially obtain other offers

[lost cypress]

hmm i see

im just in a sticky situation I think because if I get this offer for this new graduate role, this will be the highest TC offer i have

also I have had 0 internships through college even though trying hard to get one

so I do not feel so confident in having any availability to negotiate if that makes sense.

[peak halo]

You don't have any leverage

It might be that you don't.

[lost cypress]

I definitely don't, so maybe i have to just accept the low chance of getting the offer to go up.

maybe i can try to negotiate the TC rather than just the base? so that I can possibly get a sign on bonus increase at the very least

doesnt hurt to try i'd assume

[peak halo]

Is there a way you can justify needing that? Do you need to relocate for the position?

[lost cypress]

Yea I would be relocating, (in-state though)

but they already mentioned relocation/cash would be provided to help

[peak halo]

Oh. Is the offer actually less than you expected?

[lost cypress]

am i allowed to talk numbers here or na

[peak halo]

Yes? Why wouldn't you?

[lost cypress]

idk I just feel like there might be a rule regarding talking about TC explicitly to provide conflict lmao

[peak halo]

We aren't your boss.

And this isn't your company's slack

[lost cypress]

but yeah after researching online i saw most offers for my exact position and location is around 130k

but my recruiter in a call before my final round interview mentioned my range being 105-130k

that's why im like ehhh cuz im honestly expecting them to give me something on the lower end due to my lack of internships if I get the offer

Base salary ^^^

[frail tulip]

where are the best sites to find a co-founder I am an amateur coder looking for a full stack developer?

[brazen apex]

Be prepared for them to offer you 105. Just take the offer, continue job searching on the side if you're not happy. Just take the job and gain experience.

[lost cypress]

facts

[balmy spade]

Why wouldn't you ask for 115 to align with your expectations? The worst that happens is they decline the extra 10k.

[lost cypress]

assuming I get the offer, and they tell me 105, what reasons could/should I maybe give since I can't say I have previous software experience nor can I say I have a competing offer?

any alternatives to negotiate?

[brazen apex]

You're basically playing the gamble on if you're the best candidate or not. There's a high chance they just move on to the next sucker who is willing to take less money

Depends on how desperate you are for a job I guess. If you can chill for a few more months maybe negotiate.

[balmy spade]

Have you ever had success negotiating your salary once you are hired? I've always found it significantly more difficult after the papers are signed.

[brazen apex]

It's definitely significantly harder. But once your foot is in the door there are also plays you can make. You can document all your contributions and strategically present them to your boss for raises.

The market is just not the same as it was a few years ago. I've heard of so many stories, including myself just recently of people trying to negotiate and getting dunked on.

[balmy spade]

You looked at the market and was expecting an offer more in the range of 115k. You can phrase it as lightly as you like. You can just take the offer they give. I've just learned to always ask for "a little more".

[summer roost]

you can always ask for more money. Worst case scenario they say "no". Sounds like you don't have much leverage, though. Is 105 low for the experience level and cost of living, or high, or average? If it's low, I wouldn't count on being able to talk them up. They probably know they're lowballing. If it's average, you might have better luck. It will help you to know what other employers in the area pay for similar positions.

[balmy spade]

Merit raises aren't going to move your compensation anything close to what you can achieve at the table when negotiating as a hire.

[summer roost]

"getting dunked on" how, exactly?

[lost cypress]

yeah i feel like 105 is low for this company tbh its maang idk if that matters but i feel like it does

[brazen apex]

They just ghost you, and move on to the next candidate

[lost cypress]

but yea if i get the lowest of that range ill ask for a little more, but express that im also open to taking the given offer if no restructuring is possible

[summer roost]

that's fascinating. I've never heard of a company ghosting a candidate who tries to negotiate the offer, rather than just saying "the offer is final". It's a weird play for them to make - I can't imagine what would motivate them to rescind the offer rather than just say "no". But oh well. I'm sure that's not a company you'd want to work for, and that you've dodged a bullet

[balmy spade]

If you've made it to the point that an offer with a salary is being given, I don't think many companies will just ghost you. That's a lot of money they just spent getting to that stage.

[summer roost]

that's genuinely a baffling choice for them to make. I legitimately can't imagine what would lead to it

[lost cypress]

i feel like that would be more l;ikely with a smaller sized company

[brazen apex]

They actually didn't offer me shit. They asked me for my rate, which I provided then they ghosted

[summer roost]

oh. Well that's very different than random's situation

[lost cypress]

i wasnt even considering that as a negative outcome of me negotiating

[balmy spade]

That's quite different.

[summer roost]

and that's a totally reasonable thing for the company to do

[balmy spade]

Them: "What is your salary range?"
Me: "I'm looking for a competitive offer for the position. What's your offer?"

If they ghost, they weren't offering something competitive. 🤷🏽‍♀️

[brazen apex]

I already interviewed with them.
Ok their exactly wording was like this:

"We feel you are a strong candidate blah blah blah, before we can move on please provide xyz."
one of the xyz was my expected rate.

I provided them everything and now they're gone.

[lost cypress]

Random question (no pun intended),

If yall were an interviewer would you tell your candidate at the end of a really good interview "I look forward to speaking with you soon" if you werent confident in extending them an offer

[brazen apex]

Standard non commital bs

[lost cypress]

hopefully my guy wasnt bs'ing i could really use this offer im nervous even though i damn near aced the interview

[summer roost]

sure, but that's a normal outcome, right? You named a rate, they're not willing to pay that rate, and so there's nothing left to talk about. The ghosting is unprofessional, it would have been better for them to respond by saying "that's above the range that we're currently willing to pay for this position, but we'll keep you in mind for future positions", but the outcome is the same either way - you named a price that they're not willing to spend, so they're choosing to walk away instead.

[brazen apex]

I would've expected at least a "no". Or even better, advertise the rate/range, but ofc, that's not standard practice.

[summer roost]

a "no" would have been nicer, but it wouldn't change anything in any fundamental way. The outcome would be the same

[brazen apex]

I wonder though, in this situation, if no party brings up rate or salary during the interview, would you bring it up towards the end of the interview?

[summer roost]

it would probably be unhelpful to do so, especially at larger companies. It's the wrong time for a negotiation, as the people who are interviewing you likely don't have any direct control over the salary you'll be offered.

[brazen apex]

The common advice was always to never bring it up, wait for them to provide a number first, but I feel like I misplayed this time somehow. I took a shot in the dark and it would've been good if I at least knew if I am in the ballbark of their budget.

[summer roost]

yeah. like @balmy spade said, it's expensive to interview people. By not being up front about their range, they wasted your time and theirs

they wasted at least a couple of engineer hours interviewing you for a position that, most likely, you would not have applied to had you known what they were paying. Probably cost them thousands of dollars in wasted time.

[brazen apex]

I don't mind doing the interview it's good practice regardless, I just really didn't like what they did after.

Their wording in the email made it sound like I already moved through and they're just asking for logistics. Their exact words "There are no wrong answers here, we just need to understand your expectations and also what the next steps we may need to help you with."

Reading that I thought at the very least they'd try to negotiate with me if there was a problem, but it is what it is.

[summer roost]

it's possible that the reason they ghosted you is that they wanted to keep their options open. What you asked was higher than they were willing to pay, by a large enough margin that they didn't think it would be worth the effort to negotiate, but they wanted to keep you on the back burner in case none of the other candidates in the pipeline worked out, either.

Still a bit unprofessional, but I can at least understand why they might make that choice

[brazen apex]

I think that's exactly what's happening. Could've all been avoided if I just knew that before hand. Like them providing a range in that email.

I bet they sent out the exact same email to a few candidates and just engaged with the ones that gave them the least rate

[burnt glade]

Hey

[vapid jay]

So r we yes. Hopeless

[vapid jay]

Thats still better than nothing.

[weak monolith]

what about you?

[vapid jay]

I just started doing a ecom website project with fast api. I am trying to implement everything I've learned so far. Like jwt, bcrypt for password hashing, testing stuff.

[weak monolith]

Oh that's pretty cool

[vapid jay]

Can you share your projects? Also how did u structure them? Did u follow any architecture?

[weak monolith]

Sure, i could send you my github profile. Wouldn't say I followed a particular "architecture" But I usually divide it into different files and modules.

[vapid jay]

Okay do share

[weak monolith]

Sent

[honest latch]

can someone here help me with some very simple python ive never done this before in my life

[viral oak]

https://devpost.com/software/shelfaware

hi guys check out our hackathon project and like pls 🥹

[weak monolith]

Looks awesome! How long did it take for you to finish this?

[pure gorge]

can I do DL on an rtx 4060 laptop?

[viral oak]

thanks! we have 6 people and it took us 2 days

[vast cave]

For Python developers, what do you do in your job?

[past brook]

Idk if this is the right channel but I have a python project in kivy(for Android) it's a simple quizz app but I just can't get it to my phone i tried everything it seems the only thing I didn't try was using a Linux system so please can I get help from anyone

[buoyant seal]

#user-interfaces is my appropriate channel, kivy stuff is from time to time discussed there

[dense mica]

import numpy as np
import pandas as pd

[near ocean]

I mostly try to gaslight people into thinking their bug reports arent actual bugs

[open ivy]

Anyone who reaches out to others more than others reach out to them is helping fight the lonliness epidemic. Said epidemic is also responsible for the difficulty in getting a job. Given there is really no substitute to human interaction for getting hired (if there was a decent substitute, I would send my resume to that website and let them do the work for me).

It is difficult, given how tempting it is just to stay home and watch streams etc. I am not perfect, but I still reach out to others quite a bit more than they reach out to me. Makes me the more active fighter of the lonliness who takes initiatives and will eventually land me a job as well.

So give yourself credit for what you can do, rather than feeling bad that you didn't do enough.

[balmy spade]

I don't know that I'm a "python developer" in the sense that you are asking. Python is one of the primary languages I use a work though, so maybe this answer helps. My job is mostly focused on providing automated solutions to help improve existing systems.

One of the platforms my team owns is a monitoring and metrics platform. For the last four years I've written and maintained the automation which helps administrate that platform. This includes making sure accounts and configurations are correct on a daily basis. It also includes audited each of the hundreds of thousands of entities reporting in the platform to ensure they are properly tagged, labeled, and configured based on our standards.

But that's just one slice of the job. I also solution for a dozen other projects, work with other devs to help or train them, search out new ways to improve the company's tech health, and a lot more.

[open ivy]

That sounds like an interesting job because you get a variety of tasks. It involves a fair amount of writing code, but also a healthy dose of other related stuff.

[balmy spade]

It keeps me busy and I haven't ever needed to look for long before I can find something to improve on. The culture of the company is good as well. I'm quite happy to have the job. It's not often I've found a place that I both enjoyed the work and the environment.

[vast cave]

Thank you for the detailed response 🫶

I wondered what I'll be doing after getting a Python developer role, and wasn't sure if I was ready for one

[balmy spade]

It greatly depends on the company and role. At the least, you can assume you'll be doing a bit of coding. If your starting out in a junior role of an established team, you can look forward to diving into the ocean that will be their existing processes, code repos, and deployments. You'll probably get a lot of tech-debt stories. Small projects that will feel huge because you've never seen their repos before. But they are usually a great way to learn the landscape while contributing to the team.

Tech debt always needs paying and nobody likes paying it. ;)

My team just hired a new systems engineer. When they start, their first month or so will be shadowing the seniors on the team and helping with our support channel. One of the fastest ways to learn a little about a lot. Help answer the support questions coming in from our users.

[vast cave]

I feel like I'm ready for a job, and at the same time, I feel like I'm not ready for one, I'm a freshman taking CE, in fact, it's my first semester. I started learning python when I was 12, so I believe that I'm confident in my skills, but still, doubts pour in.

[open ivy]

Another thing I like about tech: even if I never get a job, I can still do it. It's like Jazz where people in a far more desperate situation than me managed to, well, revolutionize music.

Knowing that keeps me going. Which actually will help me get a job rather than giving up my passion.

[balmy spade]

That's where internships roll in, if you're in school. Experience the workforce first-hand. Also, while it sounds like you're aiming for software developer; don't pass up any opportunity to jump into a support role.
My own technology career started as a support specialist. You learn so much about how the company works and you've got the ability to build valuable automation solutions.
Check your school. They probably have student positions for tech support. Get your hands wet in the field to boost the confidence.

[open ivy]

It's a good point not to be picky.

Everyone says FAANG is so awesome. But are they? Sure, they pay well. But the details of job satisfaction are complicated. And more dependent on the people and local situation than the company (except for tiny companies where the people are the company).

So that is why I don't like bieng picky.

[balmy spade]

I'm picky as fuck about the job I take. Grabbing a support role that will open the doors into roles with more gates to pass isn't being picky. It's being strategic.

[vast cave]

Gotcha, I'll join internships as soon as I get a chance to, may I send my GitHub here for you to review it? Tell me if I'd be doing similar stuff or similar coding patterns for a job

[random sable]

hello guys, i wanted to ML in python so are there any free sources from where i can learn ?

[fringe sphinx]

Pick one thing and make it very clear. If the structure is confusing, add a section in the readme as a retrospective; here's what I'd do differently, things that need to be done, etc. say something about testing and validation.

[open ivy]

I have personal projects. Finding people who are interested in them and can push me to keep going are hard.

Anyone have tips for this? A little positive peer pressure is a good thing.

[dusk flume]

Ouu what's your current in-progress project?

[open ivy]

It's a big one. I am writing a physics engine and a game to test it. But so many things are from scratch and built differently than what is out there. There are reasons to do so, such as my optimizer which will keep me away from C++ template hell.

Because it is a large project it is more interesting than another "tetris game" or "standard cloud server that does x". But boy can it be hard to stay focused!

[dusk flume]

Yeah, that type of a project requires hella focus and dedication

What are some major differences about your engine that make it unique/standout

[brazen apex]

Is building a game good experience and transferable?

[open ivy]

Wrong channel.

At least learning how to use basic Python is far easier than getting a job! You don't even need to socialize at all to learn if you don't want to.

Why are so many people posting learning Python questions to this channel?

[normal vault]

my apologies i didnt notice i posted on wrong channel

[dusk flume]

Based on what fields you want to venture into, yes. Starting game dev at an early age can really be a boost

[brazen apex]

I am actually old af

[dusk flume]

💔

Lol, it can still be useful, don't get discouraged

[open ivy]

We were talking about this. I think it depends on the complexity of the project you can pull off. That bieng said, it's easy to over-scope a project. So be careful.

I think a tetris game is better than nothing, but a big meaningful project is much more interesting.

Imagine if you are saying to a geek:
"Oh I made a tetris game."
What would they say? "Cool". Better than nothing.

But if you had a chance to do things in a novel way, even if it didn't pan out the way you hoped it would open up more avenues.

[brazen apex]

I feel pretty stupid for not doing CS in uni, it would've put me straight into a bull market, but hindsight 20/20

[dusk flume]

@brazen apex idk if you use apple or Android but look for a mobile game called "Endless ATC".

It's an air traffic controller simulator, and I think it was made with Python. That's some inspiration.

[open ivy]

Wow that actually seems to simulate bieng a real ATC.

[dusk flume]

Can't hate yourself for that.

Its like me saying I should've been trading crypto when I was 3 instead of learning my abcs

[dusk flume]

Ye, Its basically the only thing I play.
I'm thinking of borrowing the devs game style and making one where you are the plane instead of ATC .

[gritty rivet]

It's a good first project for practicing the basics. Beyond that it depends what skills you're trying to develop

[open ivy]

As a first project, any game should be quite simple. Or at least the first "completed" milestone should be. Otherwise it will be very hard to finish.

[vapid jay]

Guys. I have an interview this 19th. For idk what. Basically they r looking for dlsomeone who knows django. But i am currently doing fastapi. I have worked in django but i feel like i dont remember anything.
Like how do u deal with situations where in interviews they ask u something or tell u to do something and u dont know??

Thats when my panic attack kicks in. So i need u guys advice like how to practically deal with it

[fringe sphinx]

You know what you know. You have 3 days as a refresher to remember the differences. You can say: it's been a few months (?) since my last Django project, and I've been working in FastAPI. Then talk about some of the differences between the two: being able to compare platforms is a good skill and demonstrates deeper knowledge that employers (at least, me) appreciate

[fringe sphinx]

You can also seek out videos from https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2NFhrDSOxgWqE_5w5CX2iUR7-P1D0ny7&feature=shared

[peak halo]

Make sure you can speak clearly and confidently about what your resume says about your Django experience.

You have a few days to brush up on Django. Depending on the position, that might not be enough time to learn non-trivial knowledge about Django. In addition to what billybobby said, you can practice talking about web development concepts in general, at a higher level than implementation framework

[vapid jay]

I pnic and LITERALLY faint when i can answer or that ik someone is trying to harasse me i guess. They called n said will discuss. My last interview there were 2 ppl asking what is this what is that why this why that. Idk i got overwhelmed so fast i just left the call

[peak halo]

(As an aside, thanks to Agent Orange and the Economic Uncertainty, I won't get to practice interviewing candidates for a long while.)

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, -that- is important to work on. You will always be asked questions you can't answer.

[vapid jay]

Okay

[fringe sphinx]

Practice not knowing the answer. Interviewers aren't trying to trick you, they just want to know what you know and don't know. And, if you can talk like a human.

[vapid jay]

I get so anxious and stuck on the fact that i why couldn't i answer instead of gracefully accepting it

[peak halo]

They also aren't expert psychoanalysts. They're just programmers asking you programming questions.

[vapid jay]

Ig i can talk about stuff but in interview i can talk but i feel like um not enough

[vapid jay]

Um gonna try to chill and calm myself as much as i can

[fringe sphinx]

Practice not knowing the answer. Have a friend ask you questions from GPT.

[vapid jay]

But if i was talking to friend n he asked do u know django id say yes i worked with n if he asks me something id say i need to look it up. Has been a while. But in interviews idk what the correct answer

[vapid jay]

This is good. I just need to practice for not knowing as well

[fringe sphinx]

I understand your feeling. It's a stressful moment.

Also remember: you don't have the job now. So you have nothing to lose. (This is somewhat dark humor, but don't view it as high stakes)

[vapid jay]

Okay

U r right.
I dont have the job so um not loosing it. I am just scared what my parents might think n all. I feel like failure. But thank you for the tips. I will keep them in mind. And in ths short time I'll brush up my dsa n basic python

[fringe sphinx]

We don't allow ads. Your post has been removed. See #rules before posting

[stuck shell]

hello

[feral stone]

im a data/app engineer rn (job title is content application engineer)

and im comming up on 1 year of working as that job title so far, I am still working on my degree but im finding tiring atm to consistantly go to my college after work and i will have to do the same for university when i transfer.

However i know of online degree programs, I so far took a look at SNHU and Penn Sate online and I like how they are at my own pace type of programs.

im also 20 yrs old at the moment coming up at 21 and im trying to weigh out my options here

anyone willing to shed some wisdom?

I do also plan to get my MBA but as a part time student

[fringe sphinx]

You left off explaining your university status, how far along you are, etc. that's pretty important to any answer.

Generally, I think muscling through a traditional degree is ideal. I don't have high opinions of pure online undergrad programs, but I also don't know much about them. But, I'd prefer to hire people from programs I'm familiar with.

[brazen apex]

How do you evaluate Master Degrees? vs experience etc. etc.

[peak halo]

my company treats the time you spend getting a masters degree as equivalent to time spent "getting experience".

(people with a bachelors degree and no experience are hired as level 1, and people with a masters and no experience are hired as level 2.)

[brazen apex]

How about someone who has experience and then went back to school?

[peak halo]

I'm not sure. at that point it's a more nuanced question of what kind of experience they had and what they did during the MS

[strong lava]

I remember hearing about this once somewhere a long time ago and it's been on my mind ever since: how bad is ageism in tech and SWE?

[peak halo]

I think it's worse for "old" people trying to enter the industry than "old" people with many years of experience in SWE.

[strong lava]

but what does the industry consider "old"? I remember it being something like 30yo

[feral stone]

im about a year from transferring, so year left in cc

[summer roost]

Federal age discrimination laws in the US start at age 40

[strong lava]

... okay? but aren't discrimination laws usually avoided by providing as little info as possible in rejections?

[summer roost]

sure, but discrimination is usually proven with a pattern of behavior, anyway, not with a single example

it's really hard for an individual to prove that they weren't hired because they're 45 if the company has hired 50 year olds, but it's pretty easy for someone to prove that they weren't hired because they're 45 if the company has hired 100 people and none of them were over 35

but anyway, I was just trying to give you a data driven answer to your question about what age people think is "old"

40 is the age where you start to get legal rights to prevent you from being discriminated against

[strong lava]

i see

[brazen apex]

So what's the lesson here? Don't stay IC as you get older?

[summer roost]

I'm an IC who's pushing 40 🤷‍♀️

[brazen apex]

If you had to leave your current role and job search would you feel pretty comfortable?

[summer roost]

Yeah. I think it's much easier to job hop as an IC than a manager, though admittedly the market isn't too great just now

[unkempt lintel]

C C++ C# Assembly Rust python particularly interested in AI Social and gaming project looking fir collaboration in project N00b with potential looking for friends and collaboration feel free to dm me

[jaunty crater]

please check you inbox and reply me

[faint igloo]

Hello everyone!

I'm currently looking for a new opportunity as a Machine Learning Engineer and would really appreciate your help in reviewing my CV. I have 8 months of experience in my first role as a Machine Learning Engineer.

Do you think my CV is strong enough for similar positions? Any feedback or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Note: My last working day will be in early May 2025.

Thank you!

[unkempt lintel]

Hi

[rugged axle]

Hey guys I have made my website quite simplistic so non technical HRs can understand wdy guys think ?
https://x1vi.github.io/my-website/

[rugged axle]

hey what exactly are u thinking to make ?

and I think I have seen u somewhere else

[vale depot]

Does being a full-stack developer mean that you’re a very experienced all-round software engineer?
I’m currently doing my first year of A-Levels, and I need help deciding what I want to do at University. I’ve been wanting to do Software Engineering, but I don’t want to potentially just limit myself to that.

[near ocean]

It means you do a little bit of backend and a little bit of frontend
Most full stack jobs are actually lies and the work is majority frontend

[buoyant seal]

Does being a full-stack developer mean that you’re a very experienced all-round software engineer?
as person above noticed, usually full-stack dev is a frontend javascript developer 😏
That can do some bits of backend.

it has its advantages for implementing stuff in web. but usually lack of proper backend skills holds them back.
Learning more than single specialization (full stack is two specializations), and more than one language in depth, and coding different practices is a lot of effort.
Full stack dev from the start being a bit splitted apart and forcing to be jack of all trades can be often found in having not sufficient skills in depth to do any of the things.

Also frontend dev positions are swamped with competion from online course people 😏 and by the extension full stack dev positions as well.
Not making it very lucrative for this reason

And amount of satisfaction can be questionable in those frontend/full stack positions. Getting stack with javascript as your only language for many years can be not very satisfying (the javascript language has many drawbacks that can make devs questioning their life choices)
Since full stack dev is basically frontend dev, they are pretty much locked into javascript only too

[vale depot]

Interesting, what kind of stuff do Software Engineering courses at universities teach? How do they prepare you to guarantee the job against online-course competitors?

I was thinking about doing an online course on freeCodeCamp before I go to university so I can put it onto my CV

[buoyant seal]

You could give a check to Code Complete, it is a bit of about everything in software development with recommending what to learn next
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#CodeCompleteAPracticalHandbookofSoftwareConstruction

I personally like to recommend learning unit testing throughly, otherwise in my opinion code is garbage below minimal threshold of quality.
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#UnitTestingPrinciplesPracticesandPatterns
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#TestDrivenDevelopmentByExample

Otherwise main advantage university graduates have... just the fact that they learned stuff for 4 years
and practiced their coding skills for 4 years to solve different difficult math problems and other stuff. Tried basic applications implementing that every student does, some Chat app, some Transpiler/Compiler app, some computer graphics, learning OOP basics, learning System Design basics, Data structures and algorithms, had full SQL learning of course, tried multiple languages to find what they like, tried building web, desktop and mobile stuff and etc. They found what they can like with some chance and invested into getting better with specific stuff they wish
4 years is a long time with constant practice, helping students to break their minds and remold into having ability to code dozens thousands code lines easily (keeping all the abstractions in mind). 4 years is a long time teaching student ability independently searching and solving solutions, they learn to do it, or they get kicked out of university.
That alone amount of practice usually makes university graduates often being able to solve simplar programming challenges on a spot, despite potentially never even encountering them

[buoyant seal]

Main problem online course graduates have. Lack of comparable amount of practice makes their skills very weak in comparison.
Lack of basic core software engineering skills learned and given time to understand and start using them also a problem (So they could be having often troubles at the level what is hashmap and why to use it)
And online courses often spoon feed solutions. Graduates of online courses aren't able often to solve problems if they are even few steps away from smth that they were given in online courses. Skills to learn/find stuff on their own are just not existing
Plenty people pick online courses to learn software engineering because they also wish easy money while working remotely, but having zero technical intuition to back it up. And thus when they go through them they forget more than they learn, and come to graduation from online courses with not that much higher amount of knowledge and skills than at the start of it

[vale depot]

What about other jobs involving programming, what are there where university graduates are more likely to find jobs? I definitely want to go to university, and I definitely want to be involved with a job that requires programming skills. Is Software Engineering the main one or is there anything else that also has good pay and isn’t competing with online course completers? I’m asking because I don’t want to narrow my vision and I also would prefer to do a course that opens up job opportunities rather than going through a fixed path unless I do another degree in another field.

[buoyant seal]

in University you solve stuff and survive and graduate in 4 years, or you drown and get kicked from it. In one way or another u learn in 4 years necessary skills.
Despite university way more education, still only half people work by their speciality by the end of it
Half of people manage still to cheat their way around and/or not putting their heart into it lets say.
Imagine amount of people working by speciality after finishing just online courses -_-.

[buoyant seal]

Different countries offer different University programs to learn.
Common to have Computer Science and Software engineering programs. which are having no difference in employer eyes.

Different countries offer different jobs u can land, and different languages u can work with after graduation.
Your best bet is actually finding local to your country hiring web site, and just Googling the hell out of it to find out which languages/job roles are actually in demand in your country.
What is their amount of presentation?
Some countries for example are highly dominated by C#/.Net like UK as far as i am aware

For third world country i am in, usually most common paths are going into Frontend (exclude only this one preferably as it is overly popular in online courses), Backend development, DevOps enginering, Mobile development (Android or Ios), Desktop development, and Data engineering is present too. Some small presentation of Embedded job roles is present too
Market is shared in jobs using Javascript, Python, PHP, Ruby, C#, Java and Kotlin, Golang at least. Plentiful amount of demand for C++ and C is actually even present too.
with using different language people specialize in specific domains like the mentioned Backend development. Mobile and etc

[buoyant seal]

Java can be a very universal language to pick 😏 usable for Backend development, Mobile android one and Desktop and game development at the same time.
So getting hang of one language u can have opened roads for you in many specializations.
While having a choice to practice it in Starsector or Minecraft game modding 😄
Some countries have almost not existing Java job roles though, best to check your local hiring web stie

[arctic depot]

hey bros

i just wanted to ask like ive done a python cource and wanted to ask like where can i put my skills to use. i wana try to mostly help others out and improve my code. so any suggestions on how i can inprove my code and help others out too. like sites or fourums for beginners

[vale depot]

I’ve heard that the job market for CompSci and Software Engineering is absolutely horrendously oversaturated these days though, I really don’t want to go through all the hard work with actually good grades just to not land a job and be rejected by everyone.
I want to partly prevent this by making sure I get good A-Levels so I can go to a higher end university that employers will prefer (my first choice is University of Edinburgh, what do you think? Should I aim higher considering the state of the job market maybe?)

I want to have good job security so I can work my way up the hierarchy and reach the top band of payment (obviously, I think that’s what most people want.)
Is there any advice I should take in regards to differentiating myself from the (seemingly too) many CompSci and Software Engineering graduates?

[buoyant seal]

I’ve heard that the job market for CompSci and Software Engineering is absolutely horrendously oversaturated these days though, I really don’t want to go through all the hard work with actually good grades just to not land a job and be rejected by everyone.
I want to partly prevent this by making sure I get good A-Levels so I can go to a higher end university that employers will prefer (my first choice is University of Edinburgh, what do you think? Should I aim higher considering the state of the job market maybe?)
as far as i am aware different between universities for CS/SE is only in amount of networking u can get by going to better university.
If your university will manage to have more up to date learning program and teaching stuff more relevant to last 10 years of market that could be a very nice too.
Otherwise supposedd to be little different in teached program

your hirability will depend on your

1. Your activity in different competions during uni. (Low impact stuff, just a bit helping easier getting first job or getting internships)
2. Your time inputed into self studies. University, university, but it is still your own only responsibility to get good with desired languages and tech stacks u wish to work after graduation. (very important thing)

• becoming comfortable to know ecosystem, best practices takes time

3. internships u managed to land during uni is the biggest success u could get to increase your chances tremendously
4. practicing in pet projects, participating in open source and building your portfolio can be nice as well to put your skills to practice.

• Like imagine u did some impressive work like this person that developed many mods for starsector https://www.ashesofthedomain.info/
• and has a lot of users using it and feedbacks? https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=26307.0 Success by design since u developed actually smth that users need and matured your projects to a production ready state. Very impressive stuff to have too

If u will just put more effort than being a passive fish and actually self study/practice stuff, learn minimal skills a strong junior should have (Unit testing yay), chances for you being hired are very high as long as u picked to know stuff in a wide demand at market (local hiring web site searches to do!)
Question yourself, how u can distinguish itself from other graduates? What can you show that make u more desirable to hire?

if i was given a task to hire Java dev junior and saw a stuff of the level ike https://www.ashesofthedomain.info/ https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=26307.0 , after searching what kind of code quality is present there, making choice whom to hire among 100-500 people would be very easy to make for me even before having technical interview with the person 😏

[vale depot]

Thank you very much for the advice.
This summer I’ve set myself a goal of creating a game in GM2 for my CV to get into university. I think I’ll explore more about unit testing once my exams are over in June. I’m understanding that essentially the greatest factor for getting hired at a good, secure job is experience and proficiency at programming itself, and at specific skills not just broad capabilities.

[buoyant seal]

Unit testing is important first of all for your own sanity as a dev.
If things aren't auto tested, we can safely presume they are broken.

Unit tests help to have rapid local feedback for code correctness, and give easy entrypoint to develop and debug new stuff
Unit tests help to establish sufficient code quality to maintain smth for years, having easy ability to refactor/improve code as it grows, reorganize easily to new its amount, changing its architecture. And serve as a level of documentation as a code.
Just from having them, they will force you think of writing code better one at all levels of internal characteristics (referencing Code Complete here) for code quality

If u use Scripting language, the importance of unit testing is quadrapled 😏 as it is the only reliable way to assert code correctness at least somewhat before deploying app

[buoyant seal]

https://darklab8.github.io/blog/choosing_pet_projects.html
I wrote some advices regarding picking long term projects here

[worthy thorn]

hello!i recently started doing my major in data science and right now im learning python,i was hoping if i could get some advice on how i should proceed since i want to do machine learning?Thank you

[near ocean]

Help others in this server? #1035199133436354600

[hidden smelt]

What are the odds of someone starting off in IT with a face tattoo?

[buoyant seal]

Probably depends on its size/tastefulness/coverage

If it is Smth moderate, it would be treated same as u having a cat. (It will not matter at all)

On another hand if your entire face, with every inch covered by tattoo (of some scary skull)... People will be questioning your sanity

[hidden smelt]

Its about 2" L x 1.5" w. And this is hypothetical of course 🙂

[buoyant seal]

What would it have drawn?

[near ocean]

If this is a hypothetical then the answer is no, dont get a face tattoo

[hidden smelt]

An anchor

[hidden smelt]

What if this person hypothetically got it done when he was 18

[buoyant seal]

It could do good to remove it then. Apparently today tattoos are removable.

Call me pacifist, but I would have some reservations regarding hiring a person with military oriented tattoo on a face.
And I would have small reservations regarding person sanity that does tattoos to a face

Better keep such tattoo on a hand/shoulder/chest, then it will not matter

[fringe sphinx]

Are we discussing the merits of a face tattoo? Or whether people with face tattoos can get jobs in tech?

And are we talking full on Mike Tyson face tattoo?

[near ocean]

Any visible face tattoo will probably work against you
Its not impossible to get a tech job but people will look at you weird for it and it will hurt your chances

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, there's many people with 'atypical' dress/hair/tattoos/etc in tech. Generally, I think the bar is set higher for them and they need to excel to make it.

[hidden smelt]

Bro i didn't know i applied to work for you. was this an interview, God damn lol.

[hidden smelt]

Yeah if it's possible or accepted in IT. And a 2" long by 1.5" wide

[near ocean]

It is possible but also much harder than it needs to be

It would do this hypothetical person good to get it removed

[fringe sphinx]

Yes, it's possible. Just harder.

[weak monolith]

Wait seriously? I was of the opinion that people don't really care much about who you are in this field.

Also, aren't tattoos quite common in Europe and NA?

[near ocean]

We're talking about face tattoos, theyre not common anywhere

[hasty flame]

whts difference between frontend and back end

[buoyant seal]

web frontend shows Graphical part of a web site
And commonly assumed loaded once and then interactively changed without extra full page reloads.
frontend can also assume desktop and mobile application.

backend is server side stuff remote stuff, that is accessed by frontends
commonly hides web app main logic and interacts with databases
commonly run at linux servers/in docker containers today
it can communicate in Jsons, Xmls or Grpc protobof stuff with frontend apps
But can be also used to return Htmls directly too and avoid having seaparate frontends 😏

[dull belfry]

is the last approach used now a days. i been making my apps using this, django template approach

[buoyant seal]

Sure, the last approach is the most prefered by backend devs. Enhancable by htmx in addition.
if you are backend dev and not liking js/frontend... highly likely that's your only option.

[dull belfry]

yea i started with django, and now is exploring towards js frameworks. been using vanilla js on frontend till now

and have to learn more about sending response via json, separate frontend kind of thing

[buoyant seal]

i like htmx for doing 95%+ of vanilla js effort through just html attributes 😏
That helps me not writing js. using it as least as possible.
I am of opinion that the best web app should be having the amount of js trying to be zero.

[dire sand]

Hello

[jolly phoenix]

Hello

[dull belfry]

hm am at an early stage to start hating js, maybe in future i will do so lol

[dire sand]

Do you recommend any platform for python learning with minigames or interactive websites

[dull belfry]

like coding websites? exercism.org is good

[buoyant seal]

if u will ever go towards golang, try https://github.com/a-h/templ for templating. it is awesomely powerful with htmx (or without htmx for that matter)
U get the benefits of typed frontend with easy applying code from functions by import without any extra shenanigans. ^_^
The most powerful backend combination i think
I think templ helps to build web front with backend means in the most friendly/comfortable way

[dire sand]

And also I need a platform for teachers, we need to upload the tasks for students, which is going to check their answers

[dire sand]

Kinda, but that one is a bit boring and not too interactive for learning phase

[dull belfry]

hmm, today i just saw fireship vid of typscript going to be made with golang. lol

[buoyant seal]

all roads lead to go 😏 resistance is futile. you shall be assimilated.

[dull belfry]

😅

[compact jungle]

Hi is there anyone who's working in MRM? or finance related field? I am looking for someone to talk or discuss topics with

[fringe sphinx]

There's a lot of us in finance and finance related jobs (I'm on the 'related' side)

[compact jungle]

okay cool. so are you familiar with market risk

[fringe sphinx]

familiar? Sure.

[hasty flame]

so front end is basically gui stuff and back end is making the website code and all

?

[hybrid creek]

Might be out of place here but, a collage I have been looking at has recently added the option to get a PHD in computer science. Would there be any reason to get it other than teaching and looking good on a resume?

[buoyant seal]

so front end is basically gui stuff
majorly yes.
you have html css/js in nginx server returned to user, user loaded them, user sees frontend.
server returned html page with css/js? server app can be backendish, but user gets to upload frontend.
So front end is indeed basically gui stuff.

back end is making the website code and all
not exactly.
web site code can be pure client side in user browser, and it will still remain frontend and web site code.
some interactive switches, code that will be quering info from other resources, rendering stuff, it will be still all frontend, some game interface rendering it will be all still frontend
The important part, Frontend code is executed from within User Browser, from inside. it is already at user machine
When we download mobile/desktop app, we load it to PC, and does all stuff locally. Same approach to web frontend, it is loaded to user browser first and then it can do some level of interactivity before it dissapears (or it can persist working even if online connection to servers is disrupted, as example Youtube web interface that remains seen despite internet disruptions)
Since modern browsers support interactivity only with Javascript (and some limited actions through native html...) we are severaly limited which languages we can use for frontend.
Backend devs can work around those limitations by using Html native abilities to maximum and replacing javascript with htmx attributes if necessary, using Request/Response strategy to server to maximum for short living pages.

Backend is app code hidden at remote linux servers and available over network requests (with repsonding in json/html/xml/or any other formats)
User database, money transactions requests, stuff like that
The important part, Backend code is executed at remote servers (and not at user PC)
Since we can run at servers any arbitary applications/languages, we have more free choices regarding in which languages backend is implemented.

[faint igloo]

please help me guys

[vale depot]

These are my matches after doing a careers quiz, thoughts?

[white relic]

What kind of questions are on the quiz?

[vale depot]

Your interests, preferences of type of work, workplace, that sort of stuff

[hasty flame]

Should I take data science. or computer sciene as a subject in high school?

I would like your suggestiosn on it

[west frost]

hey I started new project where to discuss it?

[white relic]

many of these are categories that overlap. I can't imagine too many companies employ someone specifically as a "Big Data Expert", but many may employ engineers, analysts, developers etc. that are experts on big data (to the extent that "big data expert" is a meaningful category)

[hasty flame]

also they teach R in data sciene and python for cs , so which one should I take in high school?

[white relic]

so, it looks like the kind of quiz that's trying to expose you to interesting things you might not know about. Read about the things it suggests, read about some things you scored lower on, find out what's out there, but don't take the specific titles and match percentages too seriously.

this kind of quiz has the drawback of not really showing you things that you don't know about that you would be interested in if you knew they existed, so take that into consideration too.

[icy pagoda]

python imo

i did R in uni and i didn't particularly like it at all

the difference prolly ain't just the language though, they probably go more on the stats/mathematics side on DS

[hasty flame]

oh , is it hard? cuz I mainly know everything there is in cs tb for 1st yr

[icy pagoda]

R? not really hard at all. it has a certain style and lots of math built-ins p much

[hasty flame]

So should I take R? I k everything there is in cs tb 1st yr? is it worth it?

[true harness]

R is not useful outside of academia

[icy pagoda]

"not hard" is not a reason to pick a language. I personally do not think "R" in itself is worth it but the course in data science might be wrt the algorithms, maths etc. programming language doesn't really matter much

[hasty flame]

oh

[dense mica]

my personal goal in life is to never have to write in R ever again but

if you want to, go for it lol

[gentle elbow]

i want to be a python developer that is more focused and web development and AI

what are your advices

[lucid matrix]

If you are generally interested in programming Python is better

If you are interested in statistics R is very useful

[rugged bronze]

Yo I just got an interview with Binance, sorry if off topic but its for a Customer support role. i see bad reviews on Glassdoor about the KPIs being impossible , any ideas what the KPIs might be ?

Feel free to let me know if against the rules.

[buoyant seal]

Key Performance Index, managers way to measure productivity of workers

[rugged bronze]

nah i know what KPIs mean , i have KPIs right now lol

Im already tech support for another company that is not paying me enough.

[vapid jay]

Hii I'm currently doing GCSE and I'm like really interested software development in general I would love to get me some apprenticeship after my gcse but I'm new to it and I think after gcse I'm only qualified for lvl 3 apprenticeship correct mme if I'm wrong. But anyone know what does a company look for in giving apprenticeships to ppl my lvl demographic

[rugged bronze]

im guessing that no-one's worked in binance ?

[rugged bronze]

not trying to spam but any info will be appreciated if possible dm me.

[rugged bronze]

I would say learn the things you want to know how to do with python or any other programming language , then create a github account , create or join projects that you can add to the github to develop a portfolio.

Alot of companies are looking to see if you can apply the programming you learn so you have to figure out the market you want to be a part of .

[weary marsh]

hello guys hope u good

[brazen apex]

I wonder if there's a discord to practice mock interviews

[summer roost]

there's usually at least 2 people working each desk for the job fair. It gets pretty crowded, if it would literally just be you, you might have a lot of trouble keeping up with the number of interested people

the job fair is only a couple of hours long - 3 or 4 I think?

[vapid jay]

I got some projects based on apis and scikit-learn. But I still have hard time finding one and I got rejected from my last one. What do I do now like should do more projects like? If yes should I be like working with other languages like java c++

[shell flume]

C++/.net(c++) is always good.. python is #1 for working on ai models

Companies like facebook create frameworks for their entire systems... so instead of hiring developers ... an ai creates whatever .. and this is probably not meta-verse because i'm confused with Ai glasses etc..

https://youtube.com/shorts/rT_bOEzCz74?si=cwtCgMO0ohwQ_b4i

Peripherals for ai vision controlling robotic arms

[slim cosmos]

hello mates

how do i start learning python?

[buoyant seal]

Brain Friendly guide 😏 I love this series of book
Always easy to remember for years what i learned from Head First series.
Thanks to this series i got my foot into Javascript stuff, and Golang and Java stuff and Html/CSS

[mossy shuttle]

I was gonna start learning but I read the pinned message and I don't have a degree. I studied literature

[near ocean]

You can still learn python, dont need a degree to start going through a course or book

[white relic]

Do you have a career?

[faint depot]

If youre doing your gcses, i suggest either doing your a levels (maths, physics at least) or do a level 3 apprenticeship and work yourself up to a degree apprenticeship. Make sure to ace your gcses and show you are a capable student. Apprenticeships are competitive af (believe im still applying and getting rejected)

[near ocean]

Can you move up apprenticeship levels? Or do you have to finish the one youre in and apply to higher apprenticeships?

[faint depot]

I think you have to reapply but if you show youre competent enough, I assume theyd support your application and fast track you into the next level

[still condor]

!cleanban @loud lily spam

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @loud lily permanently.

[mossy shuttle]

one I'm very unhappy with

I'm not sure if it's too late both for me being 29 and for the world considering AI is taking over programming

[violet willow]

Yeah, I feel you. It really feels like programming in itself is losing every value it used to have.

[fringe sphinx]

Funny, I feel the opposite

[summer bough]

guys i want to dive in python but i want a book and not online courses

which book would yall reccomend fora begginer

[proud glacier]

please ask general Python learning questions in #python-discussion

[umbral frigate]

!res Ask these types of questions in #python-discussion next time. You can try Automate the Boring Stuff in Python though, that's what a lot of people start with.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[proud glacier]

that said, Automate the Boring Stuff

[summer bough]

thanks

[cunning lark]

guys i want to learn python for free which is the best way to do so

[summer bough]

youtube

[peak halo]

however you do it, make sure that you're actively applying what you're learning by writing code. you will not passively learn from watching YouTube.

[rugged axle]

How can I make better products and I also need some workaround for a cheap server with a public IP or something ?

Here are some of the products I made I know they are bad but I want to improve
https://x1vi.github.io/Learn-Kanji/
https://x1vi.github.io/pixelArtConverter/

This is my website
https://x1vi.github.io/my-website/

[verbal pumice]

Hey guys, is it normal that my graduate internship contract labels me as an "independent contractor"?

[peak halo]

sounds like a way to get out of treating you as a full-fledged employee, like how uber drivers are "independent contractors".

[buoyant seal]

• probably just a regular tax evasion.
• on your side, depending in which country u are, u can be having also less rights and privileges than a regular employee. (Lack of guaranteed holidays/vacations/medicals and etc, and no guaranteed payment compensation if u are fired if such thing exists in your country)

[verbal pumice]

Well, some points in the contract dictate just that. For example, "You are an independent contractor and are not part of the company nor an employee"

[rugged axle]

Can somone holp me too ?

[buoyant seal]

Such stuff can be obligatory to put in, in order to avoid tax inspectors inspections 😏 in reality it can be entirely different story how u will be treated (like a regular employee will be treated instead, that's possibility)

[verbal pumice]

So does that even make a difference? I am not in the same country, and they are saying they are very welcome of grad interns and how they will be a big part of their projects, etc. but the contract made me feel like i'll be isolated somehow

[buoyant seal]

I am not in the same country,
ah. u should have started with this point. B2B contracts are stuff like that, u can't get employee contract with company located in a country u don't have work permits, and not willing to relocate to.
So independent contractor can be your literally only choice allowed if u wish to work for them remotely and they DO NOT have local pressence in your country

If they are juridically present in your country, they they are just tax evading / and what i mentioned above

[verbal pumice]

I love the website

[verbal pumice]

Hmm makes sense. I really hope the contract is just for regulations and my fears are just exaggerated (I don't even know what I'm fearing lol)

[fringe sphinx]

What country?

[verbal pumice]

The company is South African, And I'm in the middle east

[buoyant seal]

and u are in another country and not planning immigrate to South Africa? if so, that's normal practice to do Independent Contractor contract
Literally the only choice, unless u are willing to immigrate to their country and getting work permits / and residence living permits 😅

[verbal pumice]

Not really, the whole thing is remote so I don't need to do that

[buoyant seal]

Then nothing is fishy, all is ok 🙂

[fringe sphinx]

In the US, I've seen both types of internships. A short internship might get classified as a IC if the company is assigning work and not directing you individually (just guiding). This is often a convenience for the company because it's so temporary anyway

The IRS rules in the US say something like: the relationship (contractor vs employee) is based on who is supervising how the person is conducting their work.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/worker-classification-101-employee-or-independent-contractor

Again, wrong country. But surely there's a similar description

[verbal pumice]

Gotcha, thanks for the insight guys! really appreciate it

[vapid jay]

Ohh like you know what they look for in like

[shell flume]

https://www.kaggle.com/learn

[shell flume]

Kaggle.com and https://huggingface.co/models

I don't think there's a relevant book ... your supposed to breif python syntac lightly

Brief models.. etc

[still condor]

There are definitely books to learn Python, like Python Crash Course by Eric Matthes

[shell flume]

As far as Flask, FastApi and Django .. with Ansible which co figures linux servers

Building off huggingface models

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/900-13448-0020-000/nvidia

https://brev.nvidia.com/org/org-2tKOdDMH9xxttqSGzvJ1bS3Z81w/launchables ......

Nvidia now has resources to build off platform

[brazen apex]

Bro I am the same age as you and feeling the same

[brazen apex]

Something tells me the better AI gets the more software there will be, the more need for programmers. Is that true or is it the other way around?

[peak halo]

One possibility is that AI tools will make developers more efficient, so companies will expect their developers to produce more software in less time.

[fringe sphinx]

I think programming is extremely difficult, and the difficulty prevents us from building highly complex, reliable systems. There is a lot of progress we can make.

[brazen apex]

Yeah something about the difficultly builds a natural moat, but people think AI is destroying the moat

I am honestly not sure myself. I started learning because AI makes it easier to learn.

[fringe sphinx]

It's just moving the goalposts (at best)

Today, fairly simple systems are difficult to build. Tomorrow, who knows.

[fringe sphinx]

But remember: don't rely on AI to do the task. The goal is to get good, not to 'finish the assignment'

[brazen apex]

I feel like I wasted 7 years of my life doing trivial work and now I am starting fresh feeling extremly behind

[peak halo]

what "trivial work" was this?

[fringe sphinx]

The nice thing about the tech industry is there are many types of jobs.

[brazen apex]

I did business analyst work, but isntead of actually doing that work, influecing people, making decisions, I just became the jack of all trades errand boy

I coasted for most of my career and now it's coming back to bite me

[white relic]

going from slide rules and vacuum tubes to transistors and finite element analysis software didn't reduce the complexity of engineered structures.

[brazen apex]

Hopefully it's not too late, if I can apply myself and continue down this path maybe I can catch up

[charred shell]

hi guys, just wanna say that i have a stage in Microsoft

for the technology strategick

[deft herald]

what?

[faint depot]

Yes and no. As youre in your GCSE years, do a ton of side projects. Explore everything and anything. Thatll show to employers that you are passionate about the career you want to go into

[frosty moon]

Hi. I want to get into cybersecurity with python. where should I start

[fringe sphinx]

Check the pins in #cybersecurity

[hollow beacon]

Hey, so I lost my job in May of last year and been trying applying for jobs but I am not even getting interviews. At this point it feels depressing. Hoping for some advise on what to do. I got told to go do doordash but I was hoping to get better advise here.

[deft herald]

What kind of job did you lose? What kind of qualifications do you have?

[hollow beacon]

I was working as a full stack engineer. Worked for about 4 year and a few months. Worked with angular in the front and C# in the back using asp.net core

[shell flume]

I know some of this... unless you worked on the CLR(C++)

Unfortunately they are moving towards python systems with ai frameworks who can build code you did... and employ 10% of programming workforce

Your either dev-ops(databases, networking, python architect

Theres combinations... but i only heard of companys outsourcing to the highest bidder

[balmy spade]

Have you had your resume/cv reviewed? With that experience you should be getting interviews.

[hollow beacon]

I have had it reviewed before and was told it is fine. Tbh idk why I am not getting interviews

[fast fossil]

How many positions have you applied to in this timeframe?

[hollow beacon]

Probably over 300 at this point. I originally was using linkedin, indeed, dice and ziprecruiter but recently started just searching of companies and finding their recruiters to try and talk to them about the open positions

[vapid jay]

What would you recommend (IT NETWORK ADMIN)) or ( IT PROGRAMMING) for college. (Anyone)

[outer vessel]

eww

wait I'm still unmuted

thats cool ig

[still condor]

I only muted you from voice. If you keep spamming, I can mute you in text as well

[outer vessel]

oh

ok I wont anymore

[lost cypress]

Anyone in recruiting/TA I was wondering if I could get some insights or perspective on your side.

I recently made it to the final round (technical) for a new grad role which I completed this past Friday. I was told I should expect a decision or an update early this week. I still have not heard back.

In the most humble way I feel like I did amazing in the interview and impressed the interviewer. For the coding portion, it was an LC medium and I approached it well and solved as well.

I just was wondering if it is a bad thing that I have not gotten notified of an update already? Could this mean they are taking a long time because I am not a good candidate? Or is it something I am not understanding.

Apologies cause i have not been through many interview processes.

Hypothetically if they did already decide to give me an offer, could it seriously take this long for them to sort out the details and extend one?

[lilac yoke]

It's only tuesday...

Early this week is like Thursday morning at latest

[lost cypress]

rly??

hmmm maybe i just got hung up on the recruiter and interviewer both say "early in the week" so I just really expected to hear back Mon or Tues

[lilac yoke]

Don't stress about it, you'll know soon!

[lost cypress]

Thank you thank you😣
I just cant help but stress sometimes cause im about to graduate and don't have an offer yet

I'd just be really bummed knowing i made it this far in the interview process and did that well in the final round just to not get it

not to mention its maang which is adding some stress lol

[lilac yoke]

if your resume is good enough to get their attention, and you think you did well the interviews (final round is amazing!), you will find more opportunities regardless

[lost cypress]

i appreciate it!

[summer roost]

Yes. Rejections tend to come much quicker than offers.

[lost cypress]

I see, so maybe it is like deciding on where my pay lands in the range(if i somehow got the offer lets say) that could take this kind of time?

[summer roost]

No, probably not that

One reason for delays on offers is that they probably had interviews scheduled with people other than you, and it's a bad look to call somebody up and say "nevermind, we actually don't want to interview you after all", so they'll still interview anyone else that they had already scheduled an interview with, and only then make an offer, either to you, or to one of the people they interviewed after you if they think that person was a better fit

[lost cypress]

Oh that actually does make perfect sense

Thank you!

[summer roost]

But just in general, they have no incentive to delay responding if they've decided not to make you an offer, and they have some (maybe multiple) reasons why they might want to delay if they still might make you an offer

It's frustrating, but it is a good sign

[rugged axle]

any1 ?

billy booby ?

[lost cypress]

just saw this but great points thanks!

[near ocean]

How can I make better products?
Isn't a question that can be answered in a discord server
The second question is offtopic for the channel

[west frost]

Looking for a job

[vapid jay]

I SURVIVED the interview 🙏 🙌

I did terribly in the technical round but i didn't faint. @fringe sphinx thank you. This time i gracefully accepted the fact that i didnt know the answer. I gave wrong answers too. But I LIVED !!!!

[fringe sphinx]

Glad you felt more confident! All we can do is get better with each experience.

[vapid jay]

Yes. Asked me atatic method in py. And python decorators. Then asked from Javascript var let const. Then asked jwt. Rest api stuff. Wanted to ask me ts but i said i did use ts but idk much about it caz it was same as js not much different for me to learn. Some stuff i understood from using. They asked me how to optimize a database or optimize a search query. I couldnt answer like 80% i think i mean i had idea but i didnt fully know yk. So i did horrible in technical round. But other stuff i think i did ok.

Most importantly i was super honest. To avoid awkwardness i was honest about everything so there was no reason to face stuff i was not prepared for. They wanted to ask about ts or c# but didnt caz i didnt know them so yea

[peak halo]

This is the career discussion channel. Take a look at #❓｜how-to-get-help, including the part about how to ask questions on Discord.

[dry saddle]

im sorry

[thorny bison]

What is career.
Today is not important than career

[near ocean]

What does this mean

[analog sun]

!cban 1272220388084023419 only here to advertise

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @pulsar lance permanently.

[thorny bison]

Let talk about present

[near ocean]

Go ahead

[thorny bison]

Okay

[thorny bison]

Too you

[deft herald]

What are you doing at the present? Working? Studying? Looking for a job? all of the above?

[icy scarab]

would you recommend going to Pycon?

[vapid jay]

what is pycon

[peak halo]

Yes. It's mostly a community gathering, and the talks and stuff are a pretense to have it.

[peak halo]

The python conference

[icy scarab]

does it help your career as a python dev?

[vapid jay]

python comic con

[peak halo]

Help your career in what way?

[fringe sphinx]

Does PyCon help your career? Yes. Because diverse knowledge is the foundation. PyCon sessions cover a wide range of topics, and expose you to things you would never have even thought to learn. And you'll see a wide range of people working on interesting things. I don't attend, but I watch PyCon videos every year on YouTube, and EuroPython.

[hollow beacon]

This is from yesterday when I mentioned that I am looking for advise and help. This is my resume that I have been using without getting response.

[craggy scarab]

Hey i have a question, studying computer engineering in Spain, (1st year). Where should i put my focus on to be ahead at market job. I love the Ai and quantum computing field if that helps

[peak halo]

there's more opportunity in AI than in quantum computing. if you want to pursue AI, you should take as many AI-related courses as you can, and position yourself to do a masters degree that's related to AI.

[craggy scarab]

ok thanks, but how do you see quantum computing, isnt the next hit? i mean Ai is ahead though

[peak halo]

a lot of people think that quantum computing will just make all computing way better/faster/smarter, but it's only better/faster for certain kinds of problems, and they're not the ones most people have.

@vapid jay your message was removed for asking for a job, which is not allowed.

[faint depot]

Just got invited to an assessment centre for a Rolls Royce apprenticeship. Its an engineering based apprenticeship so, apologies for being off topic but, finally I have a chance at being accepted into RR

[open ivy]

People have all sorts of "rules" and opinions about how to get a job.

The only commonality I see is that both personal projects and networking are the most important.

I have no other "rules". I don't know the best choice of project selection, where to meet people (online or in person), how to advertise the project, etc. I have some general ideas but no specifics.

Why do people get dead-set on very specific job-search strategies? My "two rules" can be expressed in seven ascii characters. There is a LOT that they leave as exercises to the reader.

So anyone want to share their ideas for project-choice and/or networking-how-to manuals, feel free to do so. That is not off-topic for this channel, because it is not about technical Python coding help.

[true harness]

have you had a job

[near ocean]

These posts are starting to feel very ranty

[open ivy]

Yes, got it through networking. Talking about quantum information theory and they thought it was cool even though it has nothing to do about the job itself! Networking is indirect like that.

[near ocean]

Do you have this job now?

[open ivy]

No, the company went under. They recommended me to another person afterwards but said person had no slots (so far at least, it is hard to know the future).

There are often "tidbits" of fun little things like this in networking and personal projects.

They seem to happen accidently, cannot be forced. So how to make them happen? Certain moment-to-moment situations cause them to naturally arise, and we can learn from all the stories we all have.

[smoky garnet]

I've been learning Python and have built some simple projects. Now, I’m unsure about the next step. Should I dive deeper into Python, learn a framework like Django/Flask, or explore another language?

[maiden lava]

hey, what yall would say its better to learn programming? getting a degree in computer science or software engineering?

[deft herald]

They're probably around 80-90% the same, depending on your school

[open ivy]

Here are a few general ideas, out of the many directions you could take. Which ones are feasible for you?

• Find something that you could improve/expand about your project and explore that.
• Find other people who have similar projects and talk with them for inspiration.
• Clean up and document your project, that is part of programming as well. Are there messy parts?
• Start a new project in Python OR another language, maybe Javascript?
• Learn frameworks and/or get cloud certifications.
• Start a small group project with a few other programmers that are your level. Just be aware that there is a LOT to learn.

[near ocean]

Theres no point overthinking social interaction
Go out, talk to people, dont be a dick is the general guideline, theres no special sauce

[maiden lava]

the thing is that i want to LEARN, and put LEARN in that LEARN, i dont know what path in programming i want to choose yet so i want to learn more about programming to see

[deft herald]

That's also fine. With those two programs it should be no problem to switch from one to the other halfway through

But that's more of a question for your advisor to make sure

[maiden lava]

i cant tho, im geting one free scholarship since im poor, and i need to choose between one or the other

[deft herald]

But in general: CS is more theoretical and SWE is more practical

[deft herald]

Does the scholarship restrict you from changing degrees?

[maiden lava]

ye, its a system we have in brazil, we do a exam called ENEM where we get a grade, and with this grade we can get opportunities of free scholarships at various colleges, and im either getting SWE from one college or CS from another

[smoky garnet]

@open ivy Thanks! I think learning a framework or starting a new project makes the most sense for me right now. Do you have any recommendations for a good Python framework to learn next?

I’ve been thinking about learning Django.

[open ivy]

If only it was that simple! Social interaction is quite complex and thinking more deeply in moderation about it has indeed helped me. If "acting natural" was the only thing I did I would be misled. Much like how sea-turtles get confused by artificial light.

Learning Python or just about anything is also individualistic. What works for "Alice" fails for "Bob" etc. That is why good teachers cannot be replaced: they can sniff out and leverage preferred learning styles.

[open ivy]

I would say this: Internet is the icing on the cake, not the cake.

If you had to build a completely offline application of your choice, what would you make?

What do you like about computers and code that stands on it's own, without the need for an online community which does not exist yet for your drawing-board-phase project?

Once you get to that point, then you can think about how online connectivity will boost oyur app. Then you can look at articles comparing the various frameworks to see what is best. When the time comes, go ahead and learn the framework you think works for you.

[vapid jay]

Hello, I solved 50 leetcodes. Are they enough for me to land an internship?

[near ocean]

No

[vapid jay]

oh. I am a beginner in that. My first year of my uni is going to get over. (im undergrad)

[open ivy]

It is not about "passing the bar". This isn't Undergrad admissions where the GPA or SAT must be this high to enter.

Think more holistically: What story can you tell people?

• Who are the kinds of people you get along with?
• What personal projects do you like to do in your own time?
• What ideas in programming would you build if you had a small, skilled, team to do so?
• What are you trying to get out of LeetCode?
• Are you going for any certifications?
• How do you approach debugging, documentation, and refactoring?
• How can you synergize your strengths with ChatGPT's weaknesses and visa-versia?

I cannot give you answers, but questions can be more valuable. Think of yourself as writing your own biography (don't actually do it, unless you LOVE writing!). It's about the story not the individual metrics.

[smoky garnet]

That’s a good point, I haven’t really thought about offline projects before. I guess I’ve been more focused on web-related stuff, but it makes sense to build something that works well on its own first.

[near ocean]

learning styles are a myth
overthinking social interaction and manufacturing "profiles" that you use with different people like that would make you sound disingenuous, fake

[open ivy]

Different people can be very different. That includes learning style. Maybe in a different way then the stereotyped styles.

Such large differences is why there are people you really like and really dislike. If everyone was nearly the same, you wouldn't see such big contrasts.

[vapid jay]

Currently I’ve been building projects, like Discord bots, and APIs. I love working with backend systems and databases too. BUT your questions really got me thinking, It’s actually about the bigger story I’m building for myself. Thanks for that!

[open ivy]

Agreed that lies and manufacturing styles won't work for me. It does work for some people (politicians), but it is not my forte nor desire and is prone to unravelling.

Instead, I am working on remind myself to be a better listener, get better at layman's explanations for complex niche topics, make jokes here and there but not go off on too many tangents, work on "tempered optimism".

I have seen people charm an entire room. They are doing something that most people cannot do. Consistently. What can we learn from them?

[open ivy]

The offline world is no more or less important than online for app development. Ideally your program will leverage both. But if everyone is thinking about frameworks and cloud and Django, we all neglect that the offline world matters as well.

[weak monolith]

You mean something like a command line utility tool?

That doesn't rely on the internet

[open ivy]

Yes I don't see that many of them, relatively speaking, compared to how many online social apps people are trying to build.

[vapid jay]

can someone give me a easy python project to do

which is fun

[vapid jay]

I know there are some sites that offer easy projects, you can find them if you search on the internet

[weak monolith]

Build a simple API that has CRUD operations, it's fun trust me

[weak monolith]

Right, people naturally go towards webapps

[vapid jay]

on it thank you boss

[vapid jay]

there are overwhemling amout of projects there

[weak monolith]

You can use FastAPI Or Flask. There are some really good tutorials by techwithtim or freecodecamp

[weak monolith]

You could also ask chatgpt to suggest some projects based on whatever your skill level is

[vapid jay]

But the best is freecodecamp, I can't choose anyone else, it's a masterpiece

[weak monolith]

Having favorites is fine, trying out different things is always a good idea

[open ivy]

Yes. Most online apps are social tasks much more than technical. It's easy to use Chat GPT to bolt frameworks together and get something off the ground. It's much harder and more interesting the challenge of building enough of a community to actually make the app useful. That is a human problem not a Python one.

So "tech groups" are humanities groups as much as tech groups.

[vapid jay]

is there a freecodecamp for cybersecurity i am more interested in ethical hacking

[vapid jay]

a good ground for both worldview and future

ill learn basics of coding but i want to do cybersecurity more deeply

[weak monolith]

You're right, an interesting take

[humble yarrow]

i hv error

[weak monolith]

TryHackMe is a good resource

[vapid jay]

yes, FreeCodeCamp does not have a specific section for cybersecurity or ethical hacking, but there are many other free resources that you can explore for learning ethical hacking

[humble yarrow]

python to sql ...i want to connect ...can anyone just open youtube and search data ana;ytics wscube tech

[vapid jay]

I never knew this

[vapid jay]

omg thank you

[weak monolith]

You want to connect sql and python?

[weak monolith]

You're welcome, I also suggest learning linux if you're going hacking route

[weak monolith]

Learning something new everyday. What projects did you work on/working on? I see that you use python

[vapid jay]

Is it really necessary to know script coding? Some people say that this forms the basis of software development, but I don't know, is it necessary?

[vapid jay]

I use python mostly

[open ivy]

If someone is good at the tech more than the human parts, I do think they would be better off (career wise and long-term fun wise) with projects such as:

• Super low-level Assembly level patching exes.
• Super high-level code that generates code (not just AI to do so).
• Simulation and algorythim design.
• Library development.
• Making a game that requires a bespoke under-the-hood system to display a unique mechanic. Such as Yeardown.

If someone is good at the human and likeable, loves the idea of charming a room, etc, and also likes tech as a secondary skill, consider these ideas:

• Online apps. The focus is the human, the tech as the easy/easier part.
• Gamedev that focuses on stories, emotions, art, etc.
• Building a no-code framework that appeals to a segment of people you are targeting.
• Prompt engineering a LLM bot that can help with problem xyz.

[weak monolith]

I'd say yes...? Building something requires knowledge of fundamental computer science and software engineering

[vapid jay]

I understand, I can write free code in Python, I just need to direct the projects a little more

[weak monolith]

I see, what category do you think most people fall under?

[weak monolith]

Ah I see, all the "projects" I've worked on never really required a proper software architecture to be followed. Maybe you need to build something really big or complex to use all that

[vapid jay]

Even though I have software experience, I am a little behind in creativity and I need to improve that somehow.

[pseudo matrix]

Hi, We are working on a browser and have made pretty solid progress with a friend of mine. Before we roll out the full testing series, I thought it'd be great to get your feedback. Do you have 15-20 minutes sometime for a quick call so I can demo it for you? I'd really appreciate your honest thoughts and any reality checks you might have

[open ivy]

About 1%-5% of people have unique ideas of projects to embark on.
Of those ideas, about 80% are primarily social. Meaning that the product becomes useless in single-player mode. However, this 80% feels like 95% or so because "I have a social product" is more relatable, and formets longer discussions, than, say, "I have a way to better do this CUDA thingy".

Edit: This 80% is for tech and most other fields.

[weak monolith]

Same here

[weak monolith]

Haha right, what category do you fall under?

[vapid jay]

Some people say that it is genetic, that is, they say that creativity is in your genetics, but it will take a long time to really develop it

[weak monolith]

My sister is very creative. I'm not. I think it all comes down to your interest/willingness to do something and get better at it

[open ivy]

In my experience, creativity appears out of the blue randomly. It does not run in families.

A musical family will crank out several musicians and then one composer who does something clever.

[vapid jay]

Actually there is that situation

[open ivy]

Very much the technical. Thinking first and foremost how to solve non-social problems, like making physics engines less glitchy etc.

[weak monolith]

I like how detailed your answers are. It's a nice skill to have. I had an automated communication test with a company and struggled to give a long and detailed answer

[weak monolith]

Awesome

[open ivy]

"Automated communication test" how as it "automated"?

[vapid jay]

So the more I work and the more time I spend on this job and the more projects I do, the better I can do a good job in the future

[weak monolith]

It was automated. No proctor. It was for checking your vocabulary, speaking and listening skills in English

[open ivy]

I have some social ideas, some with overlap in tech, but do not have the social knowhow to implement. None of these are technically that interesting.

[vapid jay]

infamous hold old are you

[open ivy]

So a basic "does this person speak English". For that purposes, a chat bot is an OK screen. But for the interesting parts of communication, bots are stupid.

[weak monolith]

Yea, but ig there is a limit to it. No matter how much you practice, not everyone can be like messi

[weak monolith]

Yeah exactly

[weak monolith]

Why do you ask?

[vapid jay]

I understood everything, thank you, but I didn't understand the Messi thing either LOL

[weak monolith]

Wait how old do you think I am? Lol

[open ivy]

Most people who have social skills are sea-turtling it. In that asking them how they do it is about as useful as asking how a sea-turtle why she lays her eggs.

But my sea turtle is broken for social! So I had to really think my way into better interactions, not just go with the flow.

[weak monolith]

What I meant is that no matter how much one practices to be a better football player, there will be very few who can reach the top. So there's a limit to how far practice alone can get you

[open ivy]

I think that way for social. I practice not to get to the top, but to gett good enough to give my technical skills a voice.

[vapid jay]

no reason you just seem knowledgeable

[weak monolith]

That's a nice analogy

[vapid jay]

25?

[weak monolith]

Here I thought you asked me for my age because of my "Messi" Analogy lol

[vapid jay]

I don't think there is such a thing as a limit. I think there is no concept of limit in this life. We must determine the limit ourselves.

i didnt even see that haha

[weak monolith]

21

[open ivy]

It's not a limit so much as slower or faster learning rate?

[open ivy]

I rarely went online for social purposes back in college. The campus was right there. Online is more useful for me now.

[weak monolith]

I have a very pessimistic view of everything. You don't I guess

[vapid jay]

Well, everyone has a perspective, of course different ideas may arise

[vapid jay]

I guess the challenge is finding that balance. A lot of apps today assume Conastant connectivity, but that’s not always realistic. I’ve been mostly focused on online solutions.

[weak monolith]

Yeah, each to their own

[open ivy]

I am about 2/3 optimistic, namely b/c of quantum information theory reasons. That is tempered optimism and it is rare.

Pure pessimism is for the laws of thermodynamics not something as nuanced as humanities!

[weak monolith]

Are you into philosophy?

[open ivy]

Phulosophy is hard enough to define that I do not know if I am.

[weak monolith]

Haha

[vapid jay]

After learning quantum physics, people's perspective on life changes a lot and they become very thoughtful

[open ivy]

If, if, if, IF they learn it that is. It is easy to not learn it.

[vapid jay]

@open ivy sorry for ping but
May I know your experience in this field. I mean like what’s your occupation? If you don’t mind telling me

[open ivy]

I am between jobs. Because I am so much a tech geek that it is hard for me to get a tech job.

My roadmap is good, but my engine for humanities is weak.

[proud glacier]

what do you mean by "script coding" anyway?

[vapid jay]

But for example, everyone can learn, the only problem is to keep such deep and difficult information in your head. There is this difficulty in quantum physics. Although it is not mathematically difficult, it is difficult to keep it in mind. It can put people in a difficult situation with its theories and ideas

[fierce crescent]

Hi

[weak monolith]

Hello

[vapid jay]

Your insights so far have been really thought provoking, though. I am curious to know if you want to see yourself working more in hands on coding?

[open ivy]

Yes the math is not that hard. Matrixes, tensors with simple rules.

But oh boy the physics is extremely misleading.

The biggest boss battle of communication skills for me? Get three people on Earth to understand how quantum information theory + biology lead to certain niche birth order effects.