career-advice

[smoky quest]

How do you know that the topic X is useful to you and that you should learn about it, if you don't know that X exists?

[trim pelican]

My friend,
Necessities are the root of all inventions

[smoky quest]

if that was that easy, there wouldn't be any unknown unknowns anymore and no one would need to go to school

[trim pelican]

Tho It’s a tough way to learn, but you get the essential knowledge needed to run and scale a platform.

I’m not really sure how schools in the USA work, but it must be pretty nice. People there seem excited to go every day, while here, we’re always complaining about not wanting to go.

[smoky quest]

nope. Life is not all roses and hope. Most businesses fail.
You won't magically acquire the knowledge to run and scale a platform. And failure is costly, potentially all the way to failing completely your business

[carmine heart]

What are you going to do if your business fails. Are you willing to do any business to sustain yourself.?

Also School and college give you network of people. What are you doing to increase your network

[trim pelican]

I've failed three times in a row, but it doesn’t really matter since I didn’t spend any money on those attempts, just like I’m not spending on this one. If I fail again, I’ll just try again—each time I’m getting more prepared.

My first attempt with React and Python failed due to poor UI, SEO issues, and Python's heavy resource use. On my second try with Next.js, Python, and some SEO strategies, I made some money. Now, I’m planning to use Rust for high-performance tasks, Python for automation, Express.js for APIs, and Next.js with TailwindCSS for a better UI. I’m unsure about Kubernetes; Docker might be enough since I’m only using one VPS.

[trim pelican]

Social gatherings, concerts, and collaborating with people on GitHub .

[solemn rune]

Hey everyone,
I am Python fresher and I am finding jobs for the Python Developer with pandas, numpy, Django, sqlite3 skill set.
Can I need more skills or I get job with this skills.
Tell me which position I apply for this skills.

[trim crypt]

@worldly dragon now that AI won't take your job, what job are you going to pursue in?

[trim crypt]

Maybe Data Scientist? Do you have any portfolio?

[solemn rune]

Yes, But I previously working as a Front-end Developer.

[fast fossil]

tbf, life is a bed of roses

roses have thorns you know

[harsh remnant]

How fucked is the software engineer market right now

[twilit portal]

If it's not a secret, what is your business? How do you make money?

[gritty rivet]

People are getting hired every day. The number of job openings is basically normal. The number of people looking for jobs is not. So it's a pretty tough time to be looking, but it's not the apocalypse

[gritty rivet]

If you want that, you can get there. While coming to the US as an undergrad can be prohibitively expensive, assistantships for international graduate school cover tuition and living expenses.

[open ivy]

Is it just me or does hunting for a job feel surprisingly non-technical?

[gritty rivet]

Why is it surprising?

[open ivy]

Because it is a technical job (technical skills include communication).

One would think that this would tone down the non-technical aspects at least somewhat.

[hybrid sapphire]

Is there any discussion board here with job postings?

[near ocean]

No

[fringe sphinx]

I don't intend to sound snarky- engineering jobs are surprisingly non technical.

People skills, communication, team work, etc are as big if not bigger than technical skills

[near ocean]

Not sure i would put comms in technical skills

[open ivy]

This gives me a crazy idea:

People skills, etc is universal across many different jobs, technical and non-technical.

Most immigrants face a much more challenging task getting jobs than me due to visas or being undocumented. And I live in a place with many, many immigrants.

So why can't I learn from the experts? If I have to "hire" a tutor, I need to carefully look for the right people and then pay them for a few dozen hours at the median US salary of 30/hr. As it took over a year to get my first job even a 10-20% reduction in time spent will pay for itself.

[true harness]

what do you think about an open source project listed as an "Experience" on a resume. I'm a student looking for internships

[fringe sphinx]

That's a tough one. Projects is more appropriate, generally

Unless you're, say, a board member or something

[true harness]

I have it in projects currently. I'm trying to capture things that aren't strictly project stuff, like managing other devs

[fringe sphinx]

I've seen stuff like that, and volunteer work, under experience (for students/juniors)... so it's not crazy as long as it's clear what it is.

[open ivy]

Most people don't care about side projects.

Key word is most. Those who do care would really love to talk about them! And don't worry about ideas being stolen, that is down there with shark bites and place crashes in terms of rarity.

So if you find people who have side projects of thier own, they are more likely to value them more.

[gritty rivet]

I think it also depends on the project and the skills they demonstrate: Are they relevant to the role? Is this just some tutorial followed or some original app with thousands of users, etc.

[open ivy]

It's very hard to get thousands of users on your project! Or even any users.

I have original projects, but they have zero users lol.

I notice that there are many, many interesting games on itch.io that have zero comments. If everyone ignores my projects at least I have company!

[analog sun]

Hello, no we do not allow job postings or advertising

As per rules 9 and 6 in #rules

[trim pelican]

Check out inbox

[twilit portal]

I'm more interested in the general concept, like I'm not sure what's viable for a small business. A website with ads? Some service for clients?

[trim pelican]

The thing is, I’m not sure how to get there.

[trim pelican]

It really depends. If you can get good traffic, a website with ads could work. If you have a skill, offering a service might be better. Try out a few ideas and see what clicks.

[twilit portal]

Thank you

[gritty rivet]

All I'm suggesting is to do well at your local university, and then apply for graduate programs abroad. If you check LinkedIn there are very likely graduates of your university who have done so and can give you more detailed advice

[tidal vault]

At the moment I’m doing a level computer science and I’m really enjoying it like it’s actually interesting but idk if when it gets crazy hard at uni I’ll just get sick of it

[hybrid sapphire]

When will the near apocalyse end?

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, when will the cylon's finally achieve peace?

[errant thicket]

Hello I am looking at my resume and someone said that I need to add projects but i dont have any projects i created for a help desk job any help? what would I put there?

also as well the template I have mentions activities what activites could I put for a help desk job if I dont have any ?

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe share your current resume? I don't believe anyone said you must add projects, rather that if you have any, then you should.

[errant thicket]

Ok ill share my current resume again and no I dont have any but I am willing to make one if that would help me get a job

[errant thicket]

what about activites what would I put there? I am using this template here

this one right here and it talks about actvites but I dont have any help desk activites

[fringe sphinx]

You've been asking about jobs for weeks, but you haven't put a resume together?

[errant thicket]

I have but I didnt have the right template I am using a new one that someone gave me

hey yall this is my final updated resume for it help desk i fixed the template and typos is this good for me to start applying?

[fast fossil]

why are there so many square brackets? and what's up with that lone dangling one in the summary?

also you have a BSc in CS? why are you applying for help desk? I remember it was because you didn't have a degree in CS
also there are a couple typos some places

[pine sleet]

as per content, you need to focus more on the results rather than what you did

you can also include both. Say what you did and what impact it had. That impact part is missing

[errant thicket]

ill fix it thanks I am applying for help desk because I dont have a degree in cs i went to school one year for cs and now I am taking online classees for cs and I still have typos thanks Ill fix now then resend it

[errant thicket]

ok the impact part is missing where for my voulnteer services ?

[pine sleet]

Why did you put a BS CS then

[errant thicket]

It was square brackets because of the template ill fix it

[pine sleet]

If it’s in progress you should put expected graduation date to indicate that you’re still a student

[errant thicket]

someone told me to put that here so what i just suppose to say cs only ? not bs cs ?

[fast fossil]

your university project is lacking any meaningful context, I'm not sure how it's even a project

[pine sleet]

are you a sophomore? You should put expected graduation: May 2027 then (unless different)

[errant thicket]

yea thats because me being honest I never made a project for a help desk job so I didnt know what to put do I just take projects off?

[errant thicket]

yes i am a sophmore in cs ok I will and also do i change the bs cs to just cs only ?

[pine sleet]

Nah leave it

[fast fossil]

but are you currently pursuing a bachelors degree in CS or did you drop out?

[errant thicket]

ok thanks

[errant thicket]

no i am currently pursing my cs degree i did one year of college and now i take online

[pine sleet]

You should also consider working on some more projects

[fast fossil]

so you are still in college then?

[errant thicket]

yes

[errant thicket]

ok I will work on some projects but what projects are actually help desk realted?

[errant thicket]

also mate someone in here said apply for help desk thats why im doing it he said if i dont have a degree it would be hard for me to get swe or coding jobs and i have to start from the bottom

i dont know who said that but he did

im fixing the brackets and typos now then will resend

[fast fossil]

I don't get it then, why don't you apply for an internship at a company as a SWE

yea, I remember that, but I also remember it being related to you essentially dropping out or sth about a degree in another field maybe? it was @fringe sphinx who suggested applying for help desk IIRC

[errant thicket]

oh wow i could as a intern at a company for swe I did not know that do i just search up intern jobs in my area ?

i go to community college now and take online so i never been to the campus

[errant thicket]

no i wanna keep pursing cs

[true harness]

you've been told multiple times, and you acknowledged it

[errant thicket]

I remember, but this was a while back when I was actually on campus at a school. I am now at a community college and believe that it does not offer interns. How could I get an internship then if my college does not?

also with the resume I have an experince I have what other jobs could that land me? just a help desk and intern?

hey yall thanks for the help this is the updated one i know my projects need work but i dont know any help desk projects and also i fixed the brackets and typos

how does this look ?

i also took @pine sleet suggestion and put the impact i had while doing a intern

[obtuse furnace]

any adivce on how od deal with NDA's?

[white relic]

Deal with in what sense?

[obtuse furnace]

i got a really broad one, and its not letting retain any statement of work evidence

[fleet reef]

Oh?
Who'd you sign an NDA for?
What're you not supposed to tell us?

[obtuse furnace]

not signed it yet

[white relic]

Is it a reputable company?

[obtuse furnace]

startup

[white relic]

In other words, no

[fringe sphinx]

What country is this?

[white relic]

It may be worth raising your concerns. A contract where one party isn't allowed to retain a copy of the contract may not be legally enforceable

Whether or not the statement work is part of the contract or a separate legal instrument and whether the NDA is part of the contract and how they interact and all that stuff... that's going to vary

[obtuse furnace]

UK,

[fringe sphinx]

Always talk to a lawyer before signing anything: extra extra always when it's something you're not familiar with. @obtuse furnace

[limber arrow]

Hello

[obtuse furnace]

its for a startup with a freind and she just got the boilerplate NDA, so i am gonna add some stuff about retainging employment status/issue records and adding an execpetion for records relateing to Statement of work, and evidence the work was complete such as git commit history(but not the actual code)

[fringe sphinx]

There's no such thing as a 'boilerplate NDA' and you don't just 'add stuff'

[fringe sphinx]

You're playing with fire. Pay a lawyer.

Ask me how I know. I know.

[errant thicket]

hey if anyone when you have a chance would take a look at my resume i would really appreciate it

[gritty rivet]

Share anonymized screenshots here in the channel

[errant thicket]

i sent it it’s right here

[errant thicket]

i added comptia i added a bunch of yall input in my resume

[worldly swallow]

i need help

there is "science bachelor degree in IT" ,"science bachelor in security", and lastly "science bachelor in computer science"

im trying to do one in an accelerated pace and I think IT degree would be the easiest

the computer science degree would require me to grind math

which hurts me from a mental health standpoint.

[pine sleet]

most software developers have a bachelor's in computer science, it is what you should go for if you want to become a software engineer

[worldly swallow]

I'm looking for just as many responses as I can get from people who are involved in hiring or close to the process

[fringe sphinx]

Yo u didn't ask a question.

[worldly swallow]

trying to formulate the question

The question is: Is any bachelors of science relating to computers as good as computer science? if not, how good, say percentage wise? would you consider those who have such a degree?

[fringe sphinx]

A BS in MIS or IT is not the same as a BS in CS. And if you want to be a SWE, I agree with what Robin said

It all depends on your goal.

[worldly swallow]

goal is to get a good job of some sort in computer which gets my foot in the door and also not make myself depressed. I'm trying to get a degree in six months

[fringe sphinx]

Six months?

[worldly swallow]

yeah have seen all about how to do it by transfer credits to online university

get credits on sophia.org / study.com

[fringe sphinx]

So you want to do many courses online, and transfer the credits to a full Uni for one semester and graduate?

[worldly swallow]

yes

[fringe sphinx]

I strongly doubt that'll work.

Most Uni's require a certain number of courses to be taken -at- the Uni

Second, expecting them to give you credit for that many courses: that seems unlikely. Transfer credit isn't automatic

[worldly swallow]

yes i guess this is a good lead into a second question, is WGU or other "degree mill" going to matter to people who look at your resume

you can transfer 100+ credits no problem there is lists for your prospective major

noone who talks about getting a degree in six months does CS because it's more difficult

[fringe sphinx]

If you can get your degree in six months, I don't think it's a very good degree.

But I doubt you'd get one from an accredited uni.

So this seems like wishful thinking and not based on reality? But what do I know.

[pine sleet]

i think you are focusing too much on just getting the paper and disregarding the numerous other benifits you get from going to an in person uni for 4 years

[worldly swallow]

it's not an option

[worldly swallow]

WGU is regionally accredited in USA shrugs

[fringe sphinx]

Have you already completed all the transfer credits?

[worldly swallow]

no, that's why I'm here asking.

if, hypothetically, we were able to get it done, it's a good option considering all the constraints right?

[fringe sphinx]

Sounds like a terrible option, that's destined to fail.

[digital fjord]

Is your plan to do 180 credits of courses in 6 months?

[worldly swallow]

120 right?

[digital fjord]

Bachelor's are 3 year degrees usually

[worldly swallow]

i already have prior experience in computers and programming

[fringe sphinx]

Means nothing. So did I when I went to college.

In practical terms, it's impossible to cover that much material. Even cheating 100%,

[worldly swallow]

they say you need to just take a preassessment exam before doing anything

you get to test out of anything you already know

and anyways we're getting down into the weeds here, i just need to know about the degree itself

i want to know if you hire people with: unrelated degrees, IT, NIS etc... do you glance over them entirely?

[fringe sphinx]

For what jobs?

[worldly swallow]

SWE

but i'll take any well paying job within realm of IT

[fringe sphinx]

I generally only interview CS majors for SWE jobs, sometimes a EE or similar. Never interviewed an IT/MIS major for a SWE role.

They tend to go for support, operations, PM type roles

[worldly swallow]

damn. that's incredibly valuable info. you never interviewed someone with that major or never even seen their resume on your desk?

[fringe sphinx]

They wouldn't make it past a resume screen, at least not for a junior role.

That said, if you -could- speedrun a degree, then consider looking first for QA, support or operations roles

[worldly swallow]

yeah! i am wondering if maybe you can take a master's in CS after that, like if they mesh 😄

[fringe sphinx]

After speedrunning a bachelors?

I think you don't appreciate that higher education requires learning.

The whole point is to develop your critical thinking skills, broaden your knowledge, and build more rigor in your thought process. That said, some online schools may have such lax standards that they don't care... they'll gladly take their money.

That said, do what you want, but it'll impact some of your career options: you'll land a job in tech certainly, but may be hard to break into SWEing

[true harness]

gatech's online program is like that 😩

[worldly swallow]

hm... i do know for a fact that the IT degree is severely lacking in math

but that's kind of why I want to try it. for my own sake.

i was getting ready to go to a regular school and i was so stressed out everyday and thinking "i have to break out of this, i can't be broke for four years"

need more answers from more pros about whether this is a good gamble

to hear that i can graduate and say i did college by my birthday feel like it changes everything

[pine sleet]

why do you think you'll be broke? you can work over the summer (as internships which will double as income and good experience), you can even work during the year (though not recommended), there are grants, financial aid, etc to ease the financial burden

[worldly swallow]

from what I read from BillyBobby, I think he say "kinda good", if i'm not mistaken

need more votes from pros

this kind of input is worth like $1000 each to me

[fringe sphinx]

To be clear, I am saying your plan is a terrible idea and I don't think it'll work. But, I'm not you and you make your own decisions.

[worldly swallow]

oh ok. plan bad but theoretically degree kinda good? your concern is not having learned anything?

[fringe sphinx]

Didn't learn anything, doesn't get you closer to a SWE job, unlikely to finish in 6 months (or it's even more worthless than I assumed), etc.

[gritty rivet]

WGU is great for people who already have professional experience and need to check a box for HR to approve a promotion

With no relevant experience, it's probably not going to help you as much as even a traditional 2-yeat degree would

[worldly swallow]

shit, well never mind about the plan, you had a good answer when you say nobody pass the resume screening.

[worldly swallow]

hm. i feel like something that say university would be more appealing than community college.

[pine sleet]

i think pretty much everyone knows what WGU is

[fleet reef]

Whats that?

[pine sleet]

degree mill university

[fleet reef]

Oh
So like CMU

[true harness]

is it?

[finite fox]

Right and unfortunately thats can be so misleading. I went to a community college for one semester. My teach also taught at another, private institution. Same information, just one school was more expensive.

I think the idea of higher learning has evolved over years. Information wasnt so readily available before (in the age of our ancestors) as it is now. I'm not saying school is a waste of time and you dont need it, Im saying its not the only route to go and you MIGHT be able to find our way to your definition of success through another learning path. Does school make it easy? Sure. Is it impossible without it? it depends what you want to do. Wanna be a dr or dentist? GL, because im sure they offer access to tech that cant be easily aquired, but to de a dev then no, its not impossible.

Boot camps, books, courses are all valid alternatives. Just be prepared to do ALOT of reading

[worldly swallow]

I'm trying to get input from pros about whether or not a BSc in IT is a good choice.

[finite fox]

i get it. Its up to you man. Ive taken like maybe 10 Udemy courses, I got about 15-20 different programming books. I think we can all agree thats way less than a tuition no? Ive been making 6 figures in the US for a few years now. No degree. Considered a senior dev. Its not impossible man. Is a BS a good idea, sure why not. Is it required, no.

[worldly swallow]

very cool 😄 . the tuition would be around $4000 with this plan

[finite fox]

Oh and I code on a $250 laptop I found on FB marketplace. So make it $4250

[worldly swallow]

$99 per month you need to get sophia courses to transfer and $4000 for the semester. $4XXX total

but I don't want that whole plan to affect the answers given about strictly the degree

do you see resumes of people with BSc in IT? do you hire people with them or gloss over them?

[smoky quest]

A degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[finite fox]

Im a dev. I dont hire people. Or look at resumes

[fringe sphinx]

Just to reiterate: when asking this question, you need to qualify: your experience and your desired job

[worldly swallow]

ok, since we are in a programming server we can assume that people here would hire for a programming role. my experience is a few years in various tech roles

[worldly swallow]

@smoky quest can you answer about this question please

[smoky quest]

It depends on the role you are applying. EM/Recruiters will look for the best candidate for the role

[fringe sphinx]

We discuss many job titles here. Your question is whether a BS in IT (that you'll finish in a 6 month speed run) will help you land a SWE job?

[smoky quest]

So as such, an IT related degree will be more suited for IT roles than other types of roles. And vice versa

[worldly swallow]

assuming the person was knowledgeable at least. You already said you have never seen such a degree come across your desk right? I'm just trying to poll any pros I can

[safe coral]

Im so ready for my job fair! @smoky quest

[smoky quest]

go for it!

[fringe sphinx]

I said that those resumes are filtered out. They don't make the cut.

[safe coral]

I have a job fair coming up in Wednesday. I already got contacted by various companies

is my resume good? @smoky quest

[worldly swallow]

but have you seen unrelated degree or IT come across your desk/ hired one?

[smoky quest]

they don't make the cut.
Every job ad has thousands of applicants. So unless they are in the top 20, they just don't make the cut

[worldly swallow]

thanks so much, everyone.

[smoky quest]

nice!

[worldly swallow]

Oh I have one last question, does the college someone has received their BSc in CS from change their rank from "top 20" to out of favor?

like have you ever dropped someone because their institution wasn't good enough 😄

[smoky quest]

Nope.
There are two things here:

• The difference between having a degree and not having a degree if faaaaar larger than which school at which you got the degree
• Going to a better school improves your opportunity. But not going to a better school doesn't reduce your chances either

so you won't get rejected by going to a lower school, you just get less opportunities

[worldly swallow]

right, I imagine they'll think "why doesn't he have internships" and "because I did the degree in 1 year" is proably an eyebrow-raising answer

I estimate that the CS degree will take me closer to a year than the 6 month of IT degree

I will have to grind to get ready 😩

and i'll have to take so many math classes it's insane

math is the only thing standing in the way of my future now. If i can beat those I'm home free

most of the other classes seem like quite pragmatic programming subjects

good thing is that there is no rush due to transfer credit, which prevent paying more tuition than expected

fuck. guess I will sleep now and go back to grinding math all day again tomorrow.

[fringe sphinx]

You can also take many of these math classes at a community college. Calc 1/2 is the same everywhere

[wispy condor]

guys what are entry-level CS jobs like?

[rose isle]

hi

I have some experience with python webscraping can anyone give me an idea of what level of expertise should I have or what technoloiges should i have a command on to be able to get work

what channels from where to get web scraping work from

im a CS student

[pine sleet]

this channel is for discussing careers

[austere swan]

oh sorry i mistakenly write it

[buoyant seal]

Disclaimer: my advice for devs that wish to build long term stuff and maintain for years. if u aim for freelance, may be my all advices are shit for you.

Go through Code Complete, this is the best book for a CS student to find out about majority of code quality, and other aspects of development that exists there
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#CodeCompleteAPracticalHandbookofSoftwareConstruction

Learn unit testing in full capacity to be awesome. Your code quality will jump by 3-10 times magnitude. Especially if u will be be auto testing your database related code too and it will run automatically on evrey commit in CI just in case
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#TestDrivenDevelopmentByExample
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#UnitTestingPrinciplesPracticesandPatterns

https://darklab8.github.io/blog/choosing_pet_projects.html
Pick good long term project to build, and build projects 😉 Books are dead weight unless knowledge from them was practiced to become your skills.

Continue the road and learn stuff like static typing, head first design patterns, code architecture stuff (check descriptions by links above), they will help to improve things further

[buoyant seal]

Not here, this server is dedicated to be... knowledge sharing place. Not for work at all.
Check description of this channel for some job redirection stuff

[rose isle]

okay I get it thank you so much for taking your time to respond

but could I get an idea of what is the industry requirement or standard for web-scraping so I have some sort of target to aim for

[buoyant seal]

web scraping is very low level stuff, that is best to avoid.
Often misused for evil thing like scraping data that belongs to others without their permission.
Commonly used in freelance

It can be used for good.

1. For end to end testing (Quality Assurance job roles pretty much)
2. For... rewriting gradually legacy projects, to which u have present owner permissions, but nobody can't already work with them and web scraping is the only choice
3. All other cases, when u have actually permission of the owner, it is trully intended for scrapping.

Depending on web scraping target, it can be frustrating experience, if people change rapidly data format of what u scrap
Especially it can be evil if u scrap smth without owner permission from web that has Captcha protection against scraping bots in addition.
We can add here, if u can be confidence that scrapped data will be in same format with 99% likelyhood for years, it can be really good tool to use

Also majority of scraping problems are mitigated with mentioned above Unit tests, if u launch them on Cron Schedule in CI.
Then even rapidly changed stuff is far easier to keep up with. because u can be knowing quickly what got broken and notified exactly what and where to your email

=======

Real jobs CS student should aim for, if related to web:
Backend development
DevOps engineering (not very novice friendly, best aim for backend first to get experience)
Data engineering (hearing it is not very novice friendly)
Frontend development if you like
and other:
Desktop dev
Android dev
Ios stuff
and etc

Probably the most common job role that uses web scraping in daily life:
Quality Assurance engineer with automation.
But i think that is not a role CS student should aim for, very low in quality job role, cs student can do more.

[rose isle]

so is there any skill that I can transition my web scraping knowledge into lets say I stay within the domain of python what do I do go try django? web technologies? I also am doing c++ I really wish I could get a job in c++ but every developer I meet says that its best to avoid c++ there is no local work for that in my country too 😦

[buoyant seal]

C++ as far as i know is common only in game development (which is very competetive field), and embedded development (i feel like u should be having spiritial alignment to this role)
universities often give C++, probably because their program is outdated for 20-40 years. in average.

It is your own responsibility to learn marketable language before or after graduation in order to get a job. Depending what u learn, will define your work after graduation 😉
And get used to tech stack u wish to work with

In my opinion CS students should have learnt Java. very powerful language usable for modern Backend development (Server side web sites and apis, and other server infra objects)
And also usable for desktop development, game development, android development.
And all in a quality way if being good with it.
Tough learning curve in the beginning, but rewarding.

Other possible options are present and common to get a job usually are C# (i personally have issues with this language and think it has not reached to be trusted yet for backend development at least), Golang, Python, Javascript->Typescript
Best to check local hiring web site native to you country to see which one is best in terms of amount jobs locally. For after graduation junior level, your best chances to work locally where u have work permission 😉

Some other languages exist common for Android, Ios development and etc
I named languages commonly usable for Backend development, but usable in some cases for other platform targets often too

[rose isle]

alrightt I understand , and for my other question how should I translate my web scraping knowledge in python for something else that can be meaningful and get me something in the job market

again I really appreciate you taking time to respond :)))

[buoyant seal]

how should I translate my web scraping knowledge in python for something else that can be meaningful and get me something in the job market
¯_(ツ)_/¯
My advice is not translating this skill to anything and not mentioning that u had it... that what i do 😁
I don't want to attract bad attention during job search that i am even related to this field at all.
I prefer to find some more quality jobs that will be hopefully more rewarding

So in the end i became backend dev / devops engineer

[rose isle]

okay okay I get it , Thank you so much

so about your field....... can you give me a roadmap if i want do dev ops , i am a 3rd semester student in a not so amazing university but i can at least try

[buoyant seal]

Already wrote majority of stuff u need over there
#career-advice message

Besides that u just need to learn the language u will prefer to work with for backend development
And fluff of technologies and related concepts
Getting good with linux, your favourite language, backend framework, SQL language for some common database engine like postgres, and other stuff
Head first Html and Css books, and head first javascript are good to go through too, backend dev needs to know that too just in case
https://roadmap.sh/backend?r=backend-beginner

[rose isle]

okay okay again thank you very much sir!!!

[north kraken]

how i can start ml?

[dreamy plaza]

so I'm a year 12 student (final year in Australia) and I'm looking into university applications, and I've noticed a lot of software engineering degrees and a lot of computer science degrees with near identical descriptions. Is anyone able to explain what the difference between the two courses might be/what jobs I could get from each of them?

[digital fjord]

computer science is more established as a program, software engineering less so, so unis can choose to customize SE programs further. The actual differences will depend on the uni, youd have to compare which courses are in one and not the other. I would not expect there to be a meaningfuly wrong choice here.

[gritty rivet]

CS may be a bit more theoretical and general but the best way to really know is to find graduates on LinkedIn and ask them

[dreamy plaza]

ok, thanks for your help guys

[forest root]

Yeah I know, I'm just trying yk

[fringe sphinx]

kaggle.com/learn

[nocturne harness]

I love coding, but I won't be studying it in college, as I'll study music. I don't know how to progress, and though I do love it, it seems a bit futile to learn it because it will most probably not be my job. Any words of advice?

[peak halo]

is there a reason you're choosing to study music? it sounds like you're choosing a path that won't get you closer to your goals.
my mom has a degree in music, and she works in software (but not as a developer).

[nocturne harness]

I love music. I love every part of it, except the very small possibility that I won't have a greatly paid job.

[peak halo]

what country are you in? in the US, it's unfortunately a very bad strategy to get a low-earning-potential degree, even if it's about your passion.

[nocturne harness]

I'm in Greece. Music does have a future, and especially in Europe. Just like CS though, you'd have to be great at it to succeed.

I was involved with programming and computer-related stuff at a young age. I loved it since I was little. I still use linux, and though it is a pain in the ass sometimes, I love it.

[white relic]

It's not futile to learn things that aren't your job.

[nocturne harness]

Well, what could I do with it?

[true harness]

have fun

[white relic]

Be a more knowledgeable and well-rounded adult person?

[nocturne harness]

That's true

[white relic]

there are surely things you can do at the intersection of programming and music, although as a person whose musical expertise ends at banging on pots and pans in the kitchen I don't know what those would be.
but you don't have to make money doing something for it to be a fulfilling side quest

that said, if you might need to use programming as a fallback option in case your musical career takes longer to get started than you expect, you might want to put some more effort into planning it

but that's ultimately your call

[nocturne harness]

What I'm about to say seems a bit dumb, but I am not feeling that fulfilled coding as I was when I thought I would study it. However, I think that may be because I haven't gotten past the point of it being "theoretical", rather than an actual program.

[nocturne harness]

In what way could I use programming without a degree?

[hexed drum]

DSP programming, for example

https://juce.com/

But since we're in the career channel, there are not many jobs in that at all of course

[white relic]

that is a challenge. It's hard to get a programming job without a degree

hence the need for planning ahead

[hexed drum]

Depends on your standards/country

[nocturne harness]

I'd like to be able to make some scripts or useful programs (mostly on linux), or perhaps get a job that could cover the bills if I am to need it.

[gritty rivet]

It's getting to be the case that you have to be great at CS to have a decent career, but I don't think it will ever be anything like music. I'm a very mediocre programmer and doing just fine... Even much less mediocre musicans really struggl

[gritty rivet]

Basic Linux scripts is where I got started and now I'm a full time developer. Explore it as a hobby and see where it takes you

If it stays a hobby, that's fine too

[nocturne harness]

Yeah that's true.

[nocturne harness]

I learnt python pretty okay-ish, and when I was about 14 I had learnt C++. I was pretty good. I had gone to the top 10 of a panhellenic students' coding competition. I am pretty rusty nowadays, as I haven't used them in some while. How do I go from "theoretical" coding exercises to actual scripts?

[fringe sphinx]

Small coding projects. Hang out in #python-discussion and ask for tips / suggestions for projects.

[nocturne harness]

Alright, I'll see. Thank you!

[gritty rivet]

!kindling Maybe the kindling list will be helpful for you.

Otherwise focus on solving whatever problems are most interesting to you

I also find it helpful to study the local job market and understand what technologies are most interesting demand so I can try to design projects around those

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[fringe sphinx]

We don't allow advertising or self promotion. Your post has been removed.

[manic smelt]

I am confused about what I am doing in my life rn, let me give you a background of my situation, I am currently enrolled in the second year of my bachelors degree, my degree specialises in AI and ML. I have not done anything properly up until this moment, I know basics of HTML and CSS, Python, UI/UX Designing and a bit of content creation. what I want to do is specialise in a field that will help me move forward in my career, and I think I need a mentor.... My college faculty has no idea how to prepare for the placements as well as higher education, I have two things in mind, I am planning for foreign education cause placements in my country are below average for freshers and if I do have to go for placements, I am planning to relocate to another country to work. I have two and a half years worth of time to build myself, career and portfolio of skills that are industry oriented. I will tell in detail to anyone willing to help me and act as a mentor!!!!!

Reach out on dms cause ping often mixes up!!! thankssss

[fringe sphinx]

People don't dm much in this server: if you want to engage, just stick around

[fringe sphinx]

But; what country are you in? Different Uni systems have different practices. And, what's your actual question?

[manic smelt]

Okayy!!

[manic smelt]

India, Its like a standard university teaching us outdated stuff like using tkinter as a GUI in python...

[manic smelt]

I am looking for someone who works in the industry and can like give me some guidance on what I can do, a roadmap would be a great help

[mint oracle]

College Brother? Campus placement is easy to get offcampus to much competition

[manic smelt]

The package is meagre, I am willing to work hard to work somewhere with a greater growth potential

[mint oracle]

tier3 cllg?

[manic smelt]

umm lemme check online

Its a tier 2 college

[mint oracle]

Well what's ur target?which field?

[manic smelt]

placement average is 4-5 lakh per year for my branch, according to what I know

[graceful frigate]

hello guys i have a problem on terminal can any1 help

[manic smelt]

I am planning to work at a well known company maybe a top one, the thing is as my degree is in AIML, I think sticking around in that field and gaining specialisation would be good

[mint oracle]

#python-discussion

[graceful frigate]

nobody REPLYING

[manic smelt]

main goal being foreign placement or higher education, I wanna build a fool proof profile, but dont know where to start

[mint oracle]

Great! stats is most important in ai/ml

[mint oracle]

Then go for master abroad

work on research if ur professor has some connection u can get research internship in abroad colleges

[gritty rivet]

It's worth reaching out to people on LinkedIn. That way you can find, for example, of anyone who graduated from your specific university and degree program is working in a role you're interested in, etc.

[manic smelt]

Okayyyy, I'll give that a shot!

[fringe sphinx]

#❓｜how-to-get-help, this channel is "careers"

[fringe sphinx]

Hi, we don't allow advertising or self promotion. Your post has been removed.

[lost cypress]

Hey @fringe sphinx idk if you remember me I’m the dude who used to have this broccoli dude as a profile picture and would ask questions about my software engineer internship process and career stuff cause I was so worried lol.

also u told me about pycon and stuff like that

Anyways, at the moment I’m now a senior and graduating this May and I just had an interview for a full time swe position w a fortune <70 company which is pretty cool and it went well👌🏾

only thing is, I connected with the interviewer on LinkedIn and he connected back with me quite fast.

I then sent a follow up message that day, and now it’s been 3 days without him responding back to me and I’m pretty nervous rn but maybe I’m looking too deep

[fringe sphinx]

Well first. Congrats!

3 days is nothing, and many recruiters are bad with follow ups. One reason is they need to get feedback from other people, the other reason is they often have many candidates and they're not sure where anyone stands until the hiring manager makes a decision and an offer is accepted

But: I'd forget about it and focus on the next interview. Assume you have nothing, until you have an offer

(Don't be negative, but don't stop getting your resumes sent out/etc)

[lost cypress]

Thank you!

[lost cypress]

Definitely, yeah when I was hunting for internships I used to make this mistake and feel kind of proud to even land an interview cuz it was so hard to do so.

But now that I’m looking for new grad entry positions I’m just trying to make sure to not be satisfied or anything until I get an offer

The interviewer said I did really well at the end without me even asking how I did so that was good to hear ig but who knows maybe they were tryna be nice lol

[fringe sphinx]

That's great, I'd take that as sincere

[tidal hill]

Does someone know how I can get money with Python as a 14 year old?

[near ocean]

You can't really
Companies wont hire a 14 year old and freelancing is hard for anyone

[digital fjord]

If you have family friends who have office work non-secure enough to let a 14 year old touch it and tedious enough to be worth automating, it is a viable route.

[tidal hill]

Thanks for the information

[outer dragon]

Another update for anyone following:

I was told I had one day left to produce some output requested by the people who were supposed to be helping me, so I wrote the slowest one-at-a-time recursive api call script that would accept the output from the other program as input and then just "bolt-on" two more columns to the excel sheet.

I've been on vacation since Wednesday and I was asked to log in today to present this project. I told them I would on Tuesday, but then I just didn't.

I feel like maybe it was petty, but at this point I don't really care anymore

[fringe sphinx]

I dont like how you're mixing volunteering with experience. It dilutes the experience and makes it look like you're inflating what you've done.

I'd suggest just adding a separate heading for Volunteer work.

The top job: you should expand and say more about what you did. Did you write code?

Grammatically, mixing tenses. Some verbs are in present and others in past tense

any projects?

[sage bay]

what are career options for python?

[whole flare]

I'm going to assume you're from the UK? If so I think its GCSE not GSCE

[peak halo]

you don't really get jobs where your job is just to know and write python. but python is used in all sorts of developer career classes, like web development.

and whatever kind of developer you are, it's advantageous to know python just to write "glorified shell scripts"

[sage bay]

does that mean there are no python jobs or there are python jobs but you need to know other stuff on top of python

[fringe sphinx]

The latter, SWE jobs are more than just knowing Python, for instance.

[sage bay]

what are the career options for python that require you knowing more stuff, and what more stuff do you need to know for them?

[hollow turret]

python is a tool the same way a hammer is a tool. Electricians, pumblers, carpetenders all use hammers, but they all use it for different things

web development, to weather forecasting, to financial modeling - there is really no end to whatelse you can become an expert on

[fringe sphinx]

Python is used so widely, that's nearly unanswerable. Broadly, you can work as a SWE, or a scientist, or financial analyst or any number of careers that involve coding and automation

[sage bay]

wow thats a lot of options

[strange pumice]

learning laravel right now

[strange pumice]

i'll say AI, Data Science, machine learning. That's where Python Shines. It's pretty much the language

[undone rampart]

can I nepo baby my way into an swe job

[quartz crag]

is there a difference in application made with python and an application made with C++/Java? I mean the bytecode or binary could be very much similar?

is it a good practise to use python for software development?

Also, is it a good idea to first touch the basics of every field than advancing in each one by one for a long period of time?

[pine sleet]

not necessarily. they can be different - it's not something you often have to worry about though

[pine sleet]

it depends on the task

[smoky iris]

My professor recently eloquently answered this question in the middle of a rant. “Python is the lingua Franca, of programmers”. None of us are native to it, yet it it’s a language and syntax we all understand in depth.” Basically Python is a middle ground for everything In development you may want to do. Big data, back end, front end, db management, full stack. They all have their own modules and implementations you’d want to get familiar with. But there’s nothing generic across Python that makes it aimed toward a certain area. Python is a middle ground for all types of developers because of its modularity.

[quartz crag]

so the difference is of compile time?

[quartz crag]

is it that C++ could be used for the stuff python is used for, given that it had the libraries and it could be in interpreted form?

[deft pelican]

General programming languages can be used for general (any) tasks.

[deft pelican]

Why? How?

[deft pelican]

Often times you learn the other stuff at work, in my experience. The more different tasks you have dabbled in before, the better prepared you are.

I have a developer roll with a lot of python, but it's mainly automatic testing and command line tools. I still got value from knowing the basics of html, Javascript, databases.

I'm in HW dev and asic designer, and apart from the programming language there are many aspects and tools to master.

[pine sleet]

python doesn't really have a dedicated compile step in the manner that you're thinking of

Hello, your message was deleted as it violates our rules

[torn plume]

what????

[tacit galleon]

What path would you guys suggest me to learn opencv ?

[gritty rivet]

If you go on Indeed or LinkedIn and search jobs in your local area for the keyword "Python", it may help you get a better sense of things

I would prefer "Professional Experience" and "Volunteer Work" for the headings. And I do agree with making them separate

[fringe sphinx]

Even for current jobs: put in past tense.

For the first bullet of test job: what tools did you use?

Add dates for GCSE TA, and the '-present' usually would be on top (usually current roles before roles that ended), but I understand why you'd want to emphasize the other role so that's fine

Consistently capitalize (assistant, club, etc)

'To pursue it in GSCE' doesn't seem right. What's 'it'?

I'd hit this with Grammarly, too

[strange pumice]

in that case you can call me a Python native

[dapper bane]

Hey man I though I would be happy after getting a job but the exact opposite happened. I am happy I am getting some money but uh ...

[cobalt harbor]

Am i cooked im in the UK and are currently doing Cs GCSE. Is it hard to find jobs or what?

[fringe sphinx]

What's wrong?

[fringe sphinx]

Consensus is it's 'harder', but people are getting jobs

[dapper bane]

indian startups dont care much about their employees conditions they just want their work done

[fringe sphinx]

Capitalization: assistant, club

[dapper bane]

hey y u ignoring me

[hidden bloom]

ya thats fine those arent the actual titles its just so i wont get doxxed

any other recommendations? i really appreciate your help btw !

[thick widget]

for a portfolio which one is the best? left or right?

[dapper bane]

right

[smoky iris]

C is a joke

[smoky iris]

Left

[olive peak]

is there anyone for helping me??

[hidden bloom]

does the comma belong inside the quotes or beyond it?

[fringe sphinx]

What?

[fringe sphinx]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[dapper bane]

I am scared that no one help me

[fringe sphinx]

Did you ask a question? #❓｜how-to-get-help

[dapper bane]

I am making around 420$ a month indian salary, there is politics going around in my company, my country is probably gonna increase taxes and provide no servics. I dont know what I want but it isnt this . This is my resume #career-advice message

[fringe sphinx]

Any education?

[dapper bane]

bachelors in computer science and engineering 7.2 ish CGPA / 10

[fringe sphinx]

That should be in your resume then

[dapper bane]

it is I just cropped it

[fringe sphinx]

And your projects: they're pretty basic. A few games.

[dapper bane]

They took me weeks to make 🥲

[fringe sphinx]

I'm just reading the text. Then say something about then that shows what's interesting.

[dapper bane]

I put a live link to show the whole thing u wanna see ?

[fringe sphinx]

Resume reviewers won't click.

[dapper bane]

🥲

[fringe sphinx]

Especially not when screening, maybe at a later stage, but they first only look at the text

[dapper bane]

https://saintelgrandosmokio.itch.io/sky-shader take a look wdy think ?
https://saintelgrandosmokio.itch.io/water-shader

[fringe sphinx]

I won't look now, maybe later, but: think about a resume screener. They're looking for evidence that you're competent and capable

[vapid jay]

You wot m8?

[smoky iris]

C is a very robust and important language for embedded systems and learning. However it has some major flaws when it comes to project deadlines, error handling, and project scale. I won’t say it’s an awful language and it’s an important language for people to learn and to understand better what languages are doing “under the hood”. However, I will say that C is definitely not a universal language all developers understand or need to understand. There is a reason almost all modern development and coding textbooks and scientific papers use Python as the standard language for expression of thought instead of C

[fluid owl]

Yes

[teal spruce]

it should be out of them

[fringe sphinx]

Absolutely

[near ocean]

Absolutely not
If you think python is for beginners it just means you dont have the creativity to come up with an interesting, hard problem

Why am i getting pithink'd without a follow up 😡

[vapid jay]

Acceptable. But you better WATCH it, buster. 😠

[vapid jay]

So ironically, people who think Python is for beginners. . . .Are just beginners?

[near ocean]

Yes, python isnt a stepping stone language
You dont "move" from it to more "advanced" languages, thats not how that works

[peak halo]

I don't really agree with this, either. C isn't for people who are "more experienced" than python users. It's for programs that need to operate closer to the bare metal. And most programs these days do not.

[smoky quest]

ah, it's the "python is slow" discussion bleeding into #career-advice

[smoky iris]

As someone who gets paid to teach people to “code”. I actually hate when people “know how to code” from Python tutorials. A lot of time they think they know what’s going on in programs and then we switch over to Ino/C/Java/etc. and they have no clue what’s going on. Python is good for learning the basics. But pythons strengths is not caring about the pedantics. Who cares about array sizes? Who cares about pointers? Who cares about memory? That’s not why we use Python. We use it because it doesn’t force us to deal with it. So when I switch over my students to other languages and they have to deal with that stuff, it’s very overwhelming. That’s why I prefer to start with C derivative languages and then introduce them to Python (where they typically fall in love).

In short, Python is the common language that we all speak and is a great way to communicate high and low level thoughts.

[smoky quest]

I hear you but none of your points are applicable to careers

[twilit portal]

You might be interested in https://discord.com/channels/267624335836053506/934931964509691966

[smoky iris]

Yeah this conversation actually wasn’t about careers. I came here to ask where people who come to this server to recruit get referred to?

[smoky iris]

Pedagogy is theory. I dislike theory a lot. I like practical learning but thank you for the referral

[fringe sphinx]

We don't really refer them anywhere. Theres many hiring platforms like LinkedIn, not sure any of them are better than others right now. Recruiting in this market is easy (compared to getting recruited)

[smoky iris]

A lot of them are positions that aren’t actually available. Lots of companies are just trying to build up a pool of potentials

[smoky quest]

The "building up a pool of potential" is not something to be concerned about. I categorize it as a meme, but I am sure someone could pull an example in the universe of the possibles

[fringe sphinx]

There is (apparently) some truth to the 'ghost jobs', altho for other reasons... but it's seems inconsequential, since knowing that they exist doesn't change anything.

[smoky quest]

Right, not something to be concerned about.

I have seen it more used as an excuse for failing to find a job than an actual problem

[near ocean]

Are fake job postings not an actual problem?

[smoky quest]

nope

[fringe sphinx]

I'd say it's more like a reality that you have no influence over.

And I suppose it's always been, this era makes it so easy to push and publish a job.

[near ocean]

Sure but is it still not a problem just cause i cant influence it?

[smoky quest]

If you don't find a job, it's a resume/skill issue, not because AlL ThE JeRbS ArE FaKe

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, then it's just semantics of what 'problem' means. But we understand each other

[near ocean]

At what % of fake to real job posts does it become a problem then

[smoky quest]

How do you define fake job?
Do you count pipelines shared across multiple teams? Do you count ads for interesting people?

[smoky iris]

Resume over skill typically

Skills don't matter if you can't find someone to show them.

[near ocean]

A fake job is either a scam job or a posting with no actual position behind it (for whatever reason)

[smoky quest]

yeah communication skills do help a lot in getting the foot in the door

[smoky quest]

so the answer would be yes to my two questions

[smoky iris]

I've gotten so many opportunities just by talking to random people in public or customers I was helping at work.

[fringe sphinx]

Almost everything I've done for past 20 years was through referrals. Actually, everything. Strike that almost.

[smoky iris]

Open Source helps alot, I've only had 2 referrals (Still in college so everythings been internships or co-ops). But of what I have had, I was told they looked at my personal github to make sure my recommendation was backed up with data.

[silk crypt]

@fringe sphinx curious, you think you would have the same success today if you were to start lets say 2 years ago? If so, what strategy would you follow?

20 years is a long time. I'm basically 20 rn lol

[fringe sphinx]

I did not follow any plan or linear progression. I had a lot of luck and a good work ethic (but terrible academic work ethic until grad school)

My first jobs were a mix of big tech and startups, and I had a lot of luck in working for a startup that skyrocketed and epically failed (well, victim of dot com bomb). , which gave me a good network.

[silk crypt]

Are you still in the industry today? If you are, you think luck is playing a bigger role now then skill/good work ethic when it comes to getting interviews/offers?

[fringe sphinx]

As they (Pasteur) say, chance favors the prepared mind.

[silk crypt]

that is true

[fringe sphinx]

My main advice is be a polymath https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymath. Continually learn about topics you know the least about, whether it's tech or project management or supply chain logistics. But that's me projecting my goals onto others, so I'm not sure this is good life advice if you're not interested. (Polymath is kinda a joke, I just meant a generalist)

[fast fossil]

or as Seneca would say: "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity"

[slender copper]

hi guys im working on a career within a cyber security and would like to put like an hour or two a week into learning exploiting/scripting, are there any good reasources to learn that or tools such as metasploit or nessus

[fringe sphinx]

#cybersecurity might be a better place to ask

[undone rampart]

uh

[wanton birch]

Estimated how many applications does it take for you guys to get the first phone interview?

[deft pelican]

Only got face to face interviews. For two of them I didn't even apply. Occasional messages from recruiters at LinkedIn.

This probably depends a lot on what country you live in and how far away the job position is. Also depends on your education level.

[unkempt zinc]

C is for baremetal programming

i know an EE guy says that even linux has anounced that their kernel now support rust

but rust still couldnt replace C

so, C and assembly is the answer for bare metal programming

[white relic]

You should not base your opinions of programming languages on thirdhand stories from random discord users

the supposed explanation doesn't even make sense tbh

[gritty rivet]

When the market was hot and I was applying for my first dev job, I had a 5% call back rate... So something like 20 applications, on average (my very first application ended up being the job I took, so in that sense 1 application)

These days I see lots of people at all levels reporting 1% or worse

[wanton birch]

And for your first dev job, how strong do you think you were as an applicant?

I am around 200-1 region.

[hidden bloom]

im p sure the test suite looks really bad lol because writing unit tests is not a project..........

[gritty rivet]

I was a fresh bootcamp graduate with some years of experience in general IT support and a non-relevant degree. Otherwise not much going for me

All you can really do is keep getting resume feedback, keep networking and keep applying.

[wanton birch]

Yeah. I drafted a new resume but it is rather wordy. Need to make it clean and lean.

[unkempt zinc]

..he is an EE
mainly work with embedded and processor arch

and i've collabrated with him

[white relic]

good for him

his take on Rust is the kind of thing I would expect an uninformed person to say

That said, I am a random discord user, so...

[limber arrow]

Hey everyone! I’ve noticed that some universities, like Aalto University, offer master’s degrees in fields like computer science but don’t necessarily grant traditional engineering diplomas. Do you think there’s a significant difference in the job market between having a master’s degree versus an engineering degree when applying for software engineering roles? Would love to hear your thoughts and experiences! It seems like every single job is titled « ENGINEER » nowadays and it’s pissing me off

• On the job market, job descriptions clearly indicate : « have had a recognized engineering diploma »🥸

What are Master degrees for then ?

[peak halo]

any degree in computer science from an accredited university would be sufficient--it doesn't matter which of "master of {science, arts, engineering}" it is.

[fringe sphinx]

Overall good. A few things read awkward to me: "Outlined system beforehand" => "Designed system in UML using Use Case, Sequence... diagrams... "

"A GUI Application with advanced features" reads a little odd too... just "Developed desktop GUI application in <whatever tech>, implementing a robust recovery system and audit trail..."

The second bullet is a little odd, because it starts with the SQLite database and ends with AES encryption of the files being moved.

I'm just nitpicking tho.

[wanton birch]

For learning?

That said, I routinely come across all sorts of positions asking for masters/PhD.

[cold thorn]

@delicate swift maybe in your country the rules are not so strict but in my country it is almost impossible to get a job without a degree or a vocational training.

[fringe sphinx]

The hard part right now is just getting the interview on skills alone.

[delicate swift]

#python-discussion message It's even more pronounced for Junior roles; academics are very heavily sought after.

[vapid jay]

@cold thorn how old are you and where are you from,

[delicate swift]

You're NOT in equal standing without a degree, unless you offset that with experience

[vapid jay]

best a degree will give u is a slight higher % that you will be called for an interview and u can ask like 5% bigger salary cuz u wasted 4 years of your life in uni

prove me wrong

[delicate swift]

Preocts is somebody who does not have a degree, and has been employed as a SWE for longer than I've been alive.

[true harness]

anecdotal examples aren't really convincing. the data show that most employed developers have a degree

[fringe sphinx]

"slightly higher %" is the understatement. A massive understatement.

[delicate swift]

It's not a slightly higher percentage, it's the literal difference between having your resumé thrown into the trash 🥴

[vapid jay]

once again. depending on where you are from and where you are applying

[fringe sphinx]

Absolutely. To be clear: I'm talking about corporate SWE jobs (funded startups and larger).

[delicate swift]

Specially for Juniors, which there are far too few openings for far too many applicants

[vapid jay]

yesyes dw , finish your cs degree and your cv will be thrown into the trash hundreds of times same as someone without a one

[delicate swift]

I'm... employed though. I'm in a SWE internship for a local company 🥴

[vapid jay]

maybe not cuz the guy not wasted 4 years of his life for this degree and rather focused on 1 thing for which hes applying

[vapid jay]

as an intern?

[fringe sphinx]

That's an unfair argument tactic tho. Let's at least agree there's nuance, rather than positing two extremes: wasted vs mastered in 1 year, or something.

[vapid jay]

XD but you cant compare it to a normal recruiting process. hello?

[cold thorn]

you can also do a vocational training but just with your school-leaving certificate you will never ever get a job in Germany in CS if you do not know a company director personally and he knows that you are exceptional good even if you have no vocational training or degree

[delicate swift]

Again, you're acting as if both have the same hiring chance; they do not

Somebody with a degree will ALWAYS have preference over you, even if you do have experience. That's just how the market works

What is it that you're pithinking me for now Pub

[vapid jay]

I reacted to someone's message that with no degree u aint getting nowhere

[pine sleet]

It’s more that a degree is often the easiest and most effective way to filter out applicants at the beginning

[vapid jay]

thats where it started.

Both my parents are in IT with no degrees and my dad is making 5 digits a month with 0 degrees as an IT manager

[harsh river]

what sort of IT do they do? IT vs SWE is a very different beast

[cold thorn]

but did he a vocational training? or does he just have school graduation?

[vapid jay]

self study

[true harness]

i made 5 digits at chipotle . oh, a month. oops

[vapid jay]

mom is an implementation manager and he made some sort of system for the company itself and now it is just being updated and supported by a team of programmers in the company

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I think arguing extremes never works in these discussions. There's a path without a degree, but the path with a degree is better paved.

[delicate swift]

...Huh.
#python-discussion message You're stating here that they're the same, though. Or am I misreading what you're saying?

[cold thorn]

so only school graduation. maybe the things work different in your country in germany it is almost impossible to get a job with only your school graduation. it is not how the system works, you do either a degree or a vocational training and then get a job, it is obligatory for a job. there are perhaps a few professions such as building cleaning that may also take people without vocational training

[harsh river]

what country is this in?

[vapid jay]

a company will never choose you just for your cs degree over someone with actual deep understanding of the degree is what I meant.

My friend is studying CS , in 2nd year now , and they are just studying pretty much foundations of everything isntead of deep focuse on 1 thing or 1 direction.

OF COURSE , if you for a degree in ML&AI you will have infinite more chances over someone with no degree in it because its a degree that hard focuses on it.

But when we take a normal bob who just went there , with high chances that just cheated through the whole cs program , and then applies for a job , will have no chances ever getting picked , while if someone with no degree, hard focused on the field he is applying for but no professional experience background or degrees , still will have big chances because I was only talking about roles that are more entry-level with lower salaries than the market to just get a starting professional experience in the field

[true harness]

but anyways, anecdotal evidence is not relevant. the data shows that degrees do make you more employable

[vapid jay]

israel/remote

[cold thorn]

they will. they throw the application of someone with just school graduation instantly into the trash

[fringe sphinx]

Isn't Israel extremely credential-driven? That's been my experience with Israeli startups.

(I've worked with many)

[harsh river]

a company will never choose you just for your cs degree over someone with actual deep understanding of the degree is what I meant.
how can the company know you're reliable and have the neccesary skills in order to suceed at your work?
with high chances that just cheated through the whole cs program
you're assuming something that in most cases is not true
I was only talking about roles that are more entry-level with lower salaries than the market to just get a starting professional experience in the field
your statements were basically inflamatory and pretty general

[vapid jay]

I have no clue if thats the case nowadays since he is in the company for many many years now

we moved to eastern europe , and they both work full remote for the same companies

[true harness]

it's easy to make examples where someone with a degree is a worse candidate, but you haven't talked about how likely this is. there's nothing that stops a uni student from working on the same projects that a non-uni student will work on

[fringe sphinx]

Yup, my advice is only to be open minded. Don't conclude that degree = worthless, but you don't need to be convinced by us that degree = necessary. Just be open minded.

[cold thorn]

i mean you do not need 90% of the degree for your job but you need the degree to get the job that is why you study to get the possiblity to apply successful for jobs (and get more money than with a vocational training)

[vapid jay]

the main thing I tried to say is that yall cant say that no degree = have no chance in the field.

[true harness]

yeah. i agree with that. it's just almost true

[cold thorn]

i say only school graduation = no chance

[vapid jay]

of course.
I am now studying python as a hobby and maybe sth will get out of it. But I have nothing to lose as I am emplyoed in a different field with a great career growth

[vapid jay]

okay bob

[harsh river]

no degree = much much smaller chance in the field

[cold thorn]

maybe not in your country but than you are living in a completly different system than i do

[vapid jay]

thats why i asked where u r from

i wont be surprised if its a thing for lets say america, since unis are quite key in there

[cold thorn]

i already said. Germany

[harsh river]

which america? america is big, north america, central america, south america

the experience in most of NA is wildy different than CA and SA

[pine sleet]

people usually always mean US when they say that

[harsh river]

typical "american" thing to say

[vapid jay]

in my country many job offers will require only experience stated rather than a degree. Which is why I will be contacting recruiters directly and negotiate for stuff

[vapid jay]

usa

[true harness]

don't people usually say "the americas" when they mean not just the us

[harsh river]

depends on where you're from

[pine sleet]

only if you’re from “the americas” to not be confused with the US

pretty sure the eastern hemisphere just uses “America” and US interchangeably

[peak halo]

Interestingly, the "organization of american states", headquartered in DC, is an international organization of independent countries in "the americas", not the constituent parts of the united states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_American_States

[harsh river]

right, and CA and SA dont

[cold thorn]

well then i guess you need someone from your country who has a job in CS to get a answer of what you need to be "job ready". Becuase in my country you get a degree and then you learn how to do the job like in the first year of the job because in the university you do not learn the things you need in the job

[harsh river]

in CA and SA we complain a lot that "america" includes us too

[vapid jay]

I did not want to have all of this discussion, its so irrelevant. Just triggered me how @cold thorn stated an subjective statement as if it was objective for everyone that no degree will get you nowhere where its insane bs and only a cope mechanism of those who went ahead and wasted 4 years on a degree rather than study it all yourself for literally a year and if you try hard enough and know who to contact and how to search , you can achieve anything you want.

All I wanted to know is if leetcode is as good as I find it because it helps me to learn new things from the tasks it gives me.

I dont need to hear subjective thoughts , thanks

[harsh river]

but you're not being objective either.

[vapid jay]

I didnt need to know what you need to be job ready. I asked if leetcode is good for practice to get a job or not

[vapid jay]

can get a job as a python developer without a degree is not objective?

[true harness]

if you look at the stack overflow survey, for example, you'll see that most professional developers have a degree of some kind. it is true that there are some without degrees, though

[peak halo]

if you don't have any professional experience, it would be exceptionally challenging to get a job without a degree. harder than actually getting the degree, in most cases.

[harsh river]

in many places you cant, many companies explictly list a college degree as a requirement.
therefore for those companies, not being able to get a job without a degree is an objective statement

[harsh river]

there are exceptions to the rule as well, i am now working for a company like that, they explictly require a college degree, yet i am someone without a college degree and got the job because i demonstrated applicable skills, also due to networking i guess

[vital wyvern]

This discussion is often belabored in this community and misses the objective truth that:

• We cannot provide precisely curtailed advice to your experience/social network/region.
• So we often advocate for obtaining a degree because statistics show that is the most likely path to success.
• Rebuking that with 'Well you don't need one,' is absolutely true, but ignores the pragmatics of 'We cannot possibly know your precise situation.'

[cold thorn]

first i did not know that other countrys let people work with just a school graduation
and secondly you just state subjectively a degree is a waste of time as if it was objective for everyone which is not true because it my country it is obligatory for a job you could not get a python job just because you know python you would still need a vocational trainig or a degree so your statement is also not objective

[vapid jay]

once again. I would bet anything that if you try hard enough , you will get a job with a degree or not no matter of the country.

You can do things such as researching the company and the job offer and get really prepared with the skillset that they will test you from , and you can contact the recruiter directly with a letter to seek their trust and get chosen for an interview.
if you dont give up and do it for many companies that there are , eventually you will get a one and I just read too many stories on linkedin of people with degrees who get rejected hundreds of times

[errant thicket]

hey everyone i haven’t got updated feedback on my resume could i send it in here again so people could take a look ?

[cold thorn]

1. without a degree still means he can have a vocational training
2. what a shit source is that

[vapid jay]

you can do different big projects yourself and showcase it along with your cv in the application or showcase it to the recruiter and just try to seek their trust and use the topics that they list in the job offer

[vapid jay]

idk first thing that pops when you google it. quora i think. but its faul to say u just cant get a job with no degree. degree doesnt give u what a company seek

[peak halo]

yes

[cold thorn]

because people stating things are always right? and still you can with a vocational training there are also IT vocational trainings. but with just a school graduation it is almost impossible

[vapid jay]

okay , if you say that its this hard for germany.

Does it make a difference if you rather try to seek a job remotely?

[peak halo]

what point are you trying to make? some people get jobs as developers without a degree, yes. but if you're trying to use that fact to make decisions about your strategy, there are other facts you should consider.

[vapid jay]

at the end of the day , companies seek people who can get the job done , and not if they have a degree or not

[harsh river]

what if the remote company is based in germany?

[harsh river]

when theres hundred of applicants who are seeking the same job, they'll filter out the ones least likely to be hireable, having a degree or not is often the bare minimun filter

[vapid jay]

me? who are you again

[peak halo]

I am Stelercus--nice to meet you 🤝

[errant thicket]

why did someone put emojis on my resume that was rude really?

[harsh river]

i strugged to read the screenshot without having to zoom in a lot, maybe they did too

[cold thorn]

every job advertisement for a software engineer contains: a degree in computer science, software development or a comparable qualification. so either you have a degree or a vocational training with further training and professional experience

[vapid jay]

hello Stel , i just asked about leetcode and someone said no degree = no job in it. thats it

[errant thicket]

i’ll send it better at home i did that because i had to scratch out my name

[vapid jay]

sorry bro , it was the way u posted it , cant see much

[pliant parcel]

how can i land a job as an ai engineer?

[errant thicket]

ok i’ll fix it that’s all you had to say mate

[vapid jay]

OFC MAN JUST BELIEVE IN YOURSELF

[peak halo]

What month are you going to graduate? Some people graduate in the fall.
I would try to get your GPA up and take some courses that relate to your specific interests. There isn't a lot here to help you stand out for internships.

[errant thicket]

in may 2027

[peak halo]

AI development has some of the highest education requirements in software, so be prepared to probably need a masters in CS where you do AI research.
A bachelors in CS (or similar) with course emphasis on AI is a bare minimum.

[digital fjord]

This sentence is gramatically incorrect (set, not setted, and I'd probably repharse it overall), and if I understand it correctly as "I manually set temporary passwords for students who forgot their passwords", I would not dedicate a section to that. Projects are about demonstrated skills, and I am not sure which skills you want to demonstrate with this.

[peak halo]

I don't recommend grinding leetcode questions.

[errant thicket]

ok thanks the reason i put that in my projects was because i didn’t have any projects should i make some projects is that good ?

[pliant parcel]

no its a myth to be graduate and having a pd

[vapid jay]

if a company posts you need a degree, it doesnt actually mean no degree = no job

[vapid jay]

how come stel

[fringe sphinx]

Not to belabor the point but: companies look for evidence that you can get the job done. A degree is part of the evidence. Today, imo and ime, most tech companies won't interview a junior SWE without a degree. That's it. Don't fool yourself into expecting it to be equivalent with or without. But make your own decision.

[peak halo]

I work in the AI division of my company. If someone applies without a degree, their application gets insta-turbo-rejected.

And sometimes I sit in meetings where I'm the only person without a PhD.

[vapid jay]

🤓 👍🏼

[pliant parcel]

why thou?

[digital fjord]

You will do projects as part of your degree, those will work better in that section, especially if you put extra effort into them.

[vital wyvern]

Because a degree is a fairly low hurdle for most SWE jobs, and it's often going to pay off. You wouldn't hire a doctor without a degree.

[fringe sphinx]

You're in a programming discord, we're all 🤓

[peak halo]

because the work we do requires a lot of theoretical knowledge, and universities are the places where that information is taught according to widely-agreed-upon standards.

[pliant parcel]

??

[peak halo]

???

[errant thicket]

ok overall is my resume good enough for help desk
jobs and interns? i will fix my project section

[vapid jay]

yesyes . u surely cant find this info online kappaclausdeluxemaximus

[cold thorn]

but that's exactly what it usually does. there are certainly some exceptions, but simply completing a degree is definitely easier than getting into the situation of being able to show what you can do without a degree at all

[fringe sphinx]

If you have 10 ppl with a degree and 10 without, which would you interview if you only have time to interview 3?

[digital fjord]

Yeah, should be fine for that, I'd try to get some projects you can actually talk about in the interview.

[pliant parcel]

@peak halo how cna i start learnign python ? nad so on i am slef-taught

[vapid jay]

give me all these 20 cv's and the way they approached this just offer and I will tell you.

[peak halo]

you can, but anyone can say that they learned things online. whereas universities evaluate your knowledge to agreed-upon standards (accreditation) and sign-off that you have met those standards.

[errant thicket]

ok thanks and one thing i don’t know what projects would be good for a help desk job or intern any help ?

[peak halo]

you will not be able to work in AI if you are only self-taught, but if you're still interested to learn Python, you can look at our resources page

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vapid jay]

most ppl cheat in uni nowadays anyways so its insane bs

[pliant parcel]

what if i become an ai engineer ?

[peak halo]

I'm not saying the system is perfect, but it's the system that exists.

[errant thicket]

probably all people with a degree

[peak halo]

if you don't get a degree, you almost certainly will not.

[cold thorn]

the people who actaully read the CVs will reduce the pile first, i.e. everyone who has applied and does not fulfil the requirements will be thrown in the bin. he will then take a closer look at the last 5

[digital fjord]

the bar is not at all high, it should just be something that demonstates you've written code before to some standard of functionality, and that you can actually talk about the project and why you made some choices.

[vapid jay]

and what I am saying is that both degree applicant and no degree applicant will have to prove the recruiter their knowledge. If you know the shit , you will get there eventually

[pliant parcel]

university degree worht not
elon musk :everything is free

[fringe sphinx]

You're just wishful thinking at this point. Those of us who went to Uni learned a lot.

[peak halo]

elon musk is an unserious person whose opinion should not be considered.

[errant thicket]

thanks

[fringe sphinx]

You're confusing how things 'should' work with how things 'do' work.

[pliant parcel]

oh! but i have aspiration to be one

[errant thicket]

elon did say this true but it’s hard to become another elon musk

[vapid jay]

💀 cmon billy i thought you know more than that. Uni does not make you a professional in the field unless its a specific field orientated degree

[peak halo]

to be elon musk? or an AI engineer?
if you're interested in AI, I very strongly recommend that you pursue a masters in CS.

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, it's easy, just be born into money and get lucky working for a massive unicorn

[pliant parcel]

AI engineering

[errant thicket]

i thought elon came for nothing ? and built tesla on his own ?

[pliant parcel]

i have a bunch of folder on CV engineering, NLp engineering, business intelligence, convex optimization, numerical optimization, and more

[peak halo]

lol, absolutely not. he didn't even found Tesla.

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, not at all. First, where did Elon make his money? No tesla. And^

Not to say he isn't successful or smart, tbh, I was just making a joke.

[errant thicket]

oh wow

[vapid jay]

what I read 24/7 on linkedin about ppl crying with a degree being rejected 24/7 by hundreds of companies say otherwise

[pliant parcel]

elon isnt smart?

[vapid jay]

i guess degree does not make magic happen

[peak halo]

He inherited an emerald mine that was founded under one of the worst human rights abuses in modern history, got lucky with paypal, and then kept accumulating wealth by being the mascot for companies to which he made no technical contributions.

[errant thicket]

billy do you know why this happens cause billy say if this happens to me after i get my cs degree?

[pliant parcel]

but he got a big brain

[cold thorn]

it is just the requirement for the job.

[fringe sphinx]

That's very bad statistics my friend. Sample bias, plus it says nothing about ppl who didn't have a degree

Anecdotally, the engineers who post here looking for a job find one within a few months.

[pliant parcel]

no no you are misquoting some of anecdotes

[fringe sphinx]

(Not 100% but most)

[sand patio]

nothing will make magic happen, but the fact is that getting a degree makes you a more prospective application, and is generally the direction we advise someone to go if they want a career in swe

[errant thicket]

ima be the next swe 💪

[fringe sphinx]

Look, many people want to convince themselves that degrees are useless. I can't change your mind. As someone with a college (and grad) degree, I don't think they are and I won't interview Junior candidates without one.

[vapid jay]

it will happen to you my broski if you dont show the company you know what they need and know how to get their job done

[digital fjord]

if you just do the bare minimum to pass uni, avoid learning anything, make no connections, it is indeed not rare to have a hard time getting a job.

[fringe sphinx]

I think we're in circular conversation territory.

[digital fjord]

but it is not that hard to just... not do this.

[vapid jay]

hey , thats your decision 🙂 go ahead recruit ppl who went ahead and wasted 4+ years of their life studying sth they could learn in a year

[digital fjord]

it is important to keep in mind that a degree is the bare basics of the field

[cold thorn]

if companys do not search for someone witch experience, then they will teach you how to do the things

[fringe sphinx]

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[cold thorn]

getting the mandatory requirement for the job is not a waste. and you can not learn all this in a year.

[vapid jay]

yeah so they want to test your programming knowledge by stuff that is taught on leetcode. thats what i meant

[vital wyvern]

I want you to carry this enthusiasm forward as you begin your job hunt.

[vapid jay]

cuz if you have a head and you know how to program and not code , then you can do what they need

[errant thicket]

so what advice you have for me in cs i took 1 year at a uni and got a 3.2 gpa i didn’t do interns cause i didn’t know but now i take online cs cause my mom is making me work now so what advice you have for me cause i really wanna make cs my career?

[vapid jay]

me? hating? never

[fringe sphinx]

#python-discussion message

[vapid jay]

thankfully i dont need to job hunt, but I will do what I can 😛

[vital wyvern]

Do you work in CS?

[errant thicket]

what are you a entrepreneur?

[cold thorn]

they do not if they are recruiting people fresh from university

[vapid jay]

no i just work in a different field

[vital wyvern]

You have very strong opinions for someone that isn't involved in the career field.

[vapid jay]

strong words for someone who isnt in the discussion from the beginning. My family is in the field and some ppl i know

[fringe sphinx]

Altho you did say they weren't SWEs, right?

[errant thicket]

hey would anyone like to give me advice about this ^

[digital fjord]

there are usually career fairs around, go there and try to talk to people, get an idea on what jobs exist and how you could get those jobs. Talk to people, try to do programming in your free time if you have the sanity to spare, see if you can join in on uni research if you need something more focused.

[vapid jay]

my dad told me that mastering python will be enough to get anywhere. all I need to know

[errant thicket]

ok thanks could i go to any career fair? does it have to be my school ?

[digital fjord]

really, any of them work fine

[true harness]

that's not even true for developing python systems 🤔. at the very least, you're looking at ways to deploy the code, source control, ways to store data like databases

[fringe sphinx]

Go to any that'll let you show up 🙂

[fringe sphinx]

I guess depends on definition of mastery. Some day I might master it.

[errant thicket]

oh ok i didn’t know this what about interns ? could i get a intern at a different college?

[digital fjord]

and of course, have fun, whatever rhythm you set for yourself, you'll have too keep it up for a couple years, so don't burn out, relaxation is crucial towards being effective.

[vapid jay]

hey. yall comment sth that is said by someone who can buy you and your family so i dont mind

[digital fjord]

internships usually happen at companies, tho I have seen people from my college work at a different college entirely.

[vapid jay]

with no degree btw ^_^ :c

[delicate swift]

And you're still asking if leetcode helps with getting a job? That's curious

[fringe sphinx]

Uh, let's not do this. We can disagree without being disagreeable. Appeal to authority doesn't really work here, and wealth doesn't make right.

I think this is a good time to move on from this conversation.

[vapid jay]

yeah , I asked the community if they agree that leetcode helps you to be job ready after you understand a language well

[fringe sphinx]

I think we said; No, At least I did. (Specifically, I said leetcode is slightly useful during interviews, but not sufficient)

[errant thicket]

the main thing i like about coding is making scripts for video games cause it’s so cool you know nba 2k?

[vital wyvern]

And the answer is it does not. It helps you practice problem solving skills and DSA work. It is not a comprehensive qualifier in the field.

[errant thicket]

or does anyone know nba 2k ?

[vapid jay]

ok bob, i didnt ask for the rest of the discussion

[errant thicket]

there is cv script for 2k that shoots and times the jumper for you without having you to time it yourself it’s so cool i’ll send a video now

that’s what got me into coding and cs degree

[vapid jay]

my friend who is from russia , employed as a data scientist , said that interviews are mostly in the form of leetcode questions.

Well.. its actually all online. The way they interview and stuff over there

[fringe sphinx]

Are you in Russia?

[errant thicket]

wrong clip let me look for it but yea that’s why i got into coding cause you can make video game a script

[vapid jay]

its irrelevant

[digital fjord]

you usually don't need to practice leetcode to pass interview leetcode questions outside of some weird companies.

[vital wyvern]

You seem to be very focused on acing the interview and passing initial job screening, and less focused on whether or not you're legitimately capable of performing the job you're being asked to do.

[errant thicket]

hey why you put that emoji when i said nba 2k? you seem so rude mate

[fringe sphinx]

Leetcode is what you do -after- you're good.

[vapid jay]

well. leetcode helps you learn programming , rather than syntax of a language. it just adds up to your knowledge as a programmer in general. you combine syntax of the language you learn with the theoretical part etc to produce a job ready applicant.

[fringe sphinx]

Why ask a question if you don't want to hear our answers?

[vapid jay]

cuz you make subjective answers as if they were objective

[digital fjord]

you are woefully unqualified for any non-intern (and honestly some intern) swe position if syntax is something you need to practice.

[vapid jay]

youre right. I wont ask such questions anymore. I am sorry

[fringe sphinx]

I'm objectively stating that Leetcode will not make you a good SWE

[vital wyvern]

You are, as someone that does not work in the field and has no professional experience, asserting facts to people who do work in the field and have professional experience. Regardless of whether or not you agree, the aggregate audience you're speaking to is the people who would be interviewing you. Even if you hold in contempt the ideas that they're presenting, it still reflects a fairly healthy slice of the career field.

[vapid jay]

what does it have to do with what I said? leetcode does not practice syntax and the discusstion had nothing to do with syntax

[digital fjord]

ah sorry, I misread

[vapid jay]

but isnt it just like in maths, that you have word questions and leetcode is the word questions exercise type?

[fringe sphinx]

Leetcode is more like practicing calculus when you need to construct a bridge span.

[digital fjord]

practicing leetcode mostly teaches you to be good at leetcode, rather than anything about programming. Writing longer, more broadly scoped software, or contributing to such software, is vastly more useful.

[fringe sphinx]

Very little of a SWEs work is similar to a leetcode question

[vapid jay]

IBM sent me a leetcode problem btw as a part of the recruiting process

[digital fjord]

yup, I've done a couple as well

[vital wyvern]

You seem to be very focused on acing the interview and passing initial job screening, and less focused on whether or not you're legitimately capable of performing the job you're being asked to do.
I'll refer back to this... again.

[fringe sphinx]

Read what we said. We said it's necessary but not sufficient.

[vapid jay]

nope. yall told me it does not help at all. maybe not you , but some other people did

[fringe sphinx]

Nobody at all said this.

[errant thicket]

are you a entrepreneur?

[vapid jay]

no , I work for a big b2b company

[hidden bloom]

and also in the tools section under technical skills? that seems really repetitive to me imo

[fringe sphinx]

Projects looks good to me, this is a good resume

[vital wyvern]

Abstract question, how have you all gone about documenting articles/writing that reference work that you've done or has been published based on work that you've done? I keep a little 'about' section on my blog that catalogues it, but it strikes me as a little mish-mash.

[fringe sphinx]

If you look at academic CVs, you'll often see pages of publications. Might be worth emulating (one page resume with publications on 2+)

[vital wyvern]

That seems reasonable, they're more ad-hoc though. It's definitely not formalized research-- Cybersecurity kind of revolves around the 2AM blog musings.

[white relic]

Write it up in a PDF and publish it on arxiv 🤷‍♂️

[vital wyvern]

Maybe I'll just formalize the research a bit more and go that route.

[white relic]

Idk if there is a more appropriate venue. I'm more on the physics side of things

[vital wyvern]

Yeah Cybersecurity is kind of weird. Some of the dumber things I've said/tweeted/looked into/blogged have caught on, where more formalized research never really lands because nobody wants to read a 10 page paper on malware analysis.

[fringe sphinx]

Speaking of dumb things, what do you think of this: #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval message

[vital wyvern]

Man I'm scared to talk about this; infosec Twitter is currently deeply entrenched in a divisive argument over this exact topic.

My succint opinion is that insecure development processes share a large but not mutually exclusive part of blame for current adversarial activity. If you aren't following secure coding practices, you do hold some share of liability for the result of compromise. That doesn't mean it's exclusively a developer issue-- it's ultimately a cultural issue.

[fringe sphinx]

My opinion is that CISA's take is very lazy, bordering on a hot take.

Like, there's nuance about the pipeline, infrastructure, procurement practices (buying and using lowest bidders), etc

Omg: buying COTS software from lowest bidder is bad??

[vital wyvern]

Security for the vast majority of the US market is held together largely by duct tape and sheer 'coincidence'. You (the biblical You) are not compromised not because of any deliberate step someone has taken to secure something, but because of sheer odds.

Developers should be encouraged to create safe and reliable applications; those that do not have that budget will be cheaper, acquired, and distributed more. Which is unfortunate because that proliferates the problem. I'm entirely unsure where the fix lies if adversarial activity occurs largely from outside current jurisdiction.

The government can't really do too much to affect it; CISA is woefully understaffed (which is insane to me) and even when they're actively contributing, it's typically in the form of a broad notification that encourages a company with no Cyber Insurance to contact IR or get a compromise assessment done, which they... cannot afford. So they'll just try to internally remediate the best they can, and then when they get ransomed and everyone's payment/contact information gets disclosed, they can turn a blind eye to the problem.

[fast fossil]

what about "please" and "thank you"?

[vital wyvern]

I'd like to see a non-small portion of US DoD spending to be dedicated to assist in securing public and private infrastructure nationwide. The government gets a lot of flak if they start poking around anyone's networks though. So... I'm not really sure how to deal with it holistically other than blame the SDLC and operators.

[fast fossil]

well, how about you go to uni, learn all that in a year, get an internship in the field, show up only to the exams if possible and you'll get through it all in no time

[fringe sphinx]

I like this take.

[vapid jay]

no thanks XD I have very good career growth here and I save up a lot of money monthly to buy a property soon.
Uni will ruin everything and regress my progression

uni is a crazy waste of time

[fringe sphinx]

Let's not rehash this plz 🙂

[limber arrow]

@vapid jay where are you from mate ?

[vapid jay]

hows that relevant

my guy told me to go and waste my years on uni while not building any professional experience and then to get an internship that pays me less than my current job , instead of self study this in my free time while also career growing in a different profession that pays the money it needs to

I dont know how ppl allow themselves to go ahead and waste so much valuable time on sth that doesnt get you anything

[fringe sphinx]

To be clear (for other people reading), you're not in software engineering.

[vapid jay]

but np. every year less and less companies ask for a degree

[fringe sphinx]

Your advice to aspiring software engineers seems to be: don't be a software engineer.

[vapid jay]

?

i say uni is a waste of time. go and study it yourself

[fringe sphinx]

"In a different profession"?

[vital wyvern]

I'm not sure why you're still musing here, it sounds like you should go out and chase your dreams. You don't need to convince us 👀

[vapid jay]

I got pinged again by someone 😄 but I dont mind the chat. once a month for the jokes is fine

[fringe sphinx]

We explained that software engineers will have a hard time finding work without a degree. You said that you don't need a degree to have a successful career -in a different career-. We're comparing apples and oranges. I am only engaging because of what -other- people in this channel will misread from what you say.

[true harness]

but most uni students get internships while in school. so they get professional experience and education

[vapid jay]

no that is not true. I said u dont need a degree for a position as a software engineer

[vapid jay]

is it a common practice for all students , or its for the lucky and talented ones

[true harness]

anyone has the opportunity. everyone i know has had at least one before graduating

[vapid jay]

my friend from Macedonia has stated otherways. I am not sure about that one and will not argue for obvious reason

[vapid jay]

maybe 3rd/4th year yeah , because I know internship in medicine starts on the 3rd year

cuz for example what he has in his cs studies, they just covered foundations of languages such as c c# c++ html

but nothing is nowhere near to be job ready. can barely make an advanced project.

But it also depends on you and how much you study outside of uni

[true harness]

what do you define as an advanced project? it's true that if you don't put in the work, uni will not help you

[fringe sphinx]

Ok, you can believe whatever you want. I'm saying that a high percentage (95+%) of companies won't interview a junior without a degree right now.

And I don't care to convince you. This is for everyone else reading.

[vapid jay]

just something more than just a regular calculator program you will do in HS

[true harness]

but a lot of uni courses will have project components to them. smaller things in some courses, and many have capstone projects which is several months

[fringe sphinx]

We're just being trolled then.

[vapid jay]

yeah and you just need to know some elements from the whole project to pass.

each sector will give u points and u need enough points to pass

how old are you Billy?

[fringe sphinx]

I was taking them seriously until now. My bad.

[true harness]

i'm not sure what you mean. a lot of projects are individual: you can't do well if you don't actually do the project

[vapid jay]

tell me how long have you been professionally employed in the field for?

[fringe sphinx]

Longer than you've been alive.

[vapid jay]

💀

[lapis plume]

I am new to coding Can you help me with advice on what to do ? I am 18 and in 3rd semester of my college

[true harness]

advice on what?

[vapid jay]

quit college

[fast fossil]

in a CS program?

[lapis plume]

What to do how to start

[lapis plume]

Yeah

[vapid jay]

bro in 3rd semester and hasnt even started yet and yall are yapping about how good it is

[limber arrow]

That is actually relevant cuz you talk in Absolute too much mate, as if the rules that apply in your place also apply to any other country.

In France you get nowhere without a degree even if you have all the skills, if a guy comes from a prestigious university he get the job and you get nothin

[vapid jay]

and then billy says I am trolling . ohnah.

[peak halo]

if you're going to tell people this, please also say in the same message that you do not have a degree and have never been a professional dev, so that people know where that perspective is coming from.

[limber arrow]

Don’t try to convince an entitled person, never

[vapid jay]

👍🏼🤓

[fast fossil]

that's not exactly constructive advice, is it?
also how will that help them if they have learned only a little through college, how is dropping out and learning on their own possibly a better option?

[vapid jay]

i mean. he is in 3rd semester and is as clueless as someone in kindergarten. cmon

[peak halo]

they're not going to change their mind.

[limber arrow]

You look very smart man, keep givin smart advices 🥶

[lapis plume]

Actually I used to think the same . But then my perspective changed , it's actually good to have a degree that not to have one

[limber arrow]

Bro got no degree and he tryna convince himself he did the right thing 🤣

[vital wyvern]

It's called hedging your bets. Statistics support the evidence that degrees make you more employable. How much are you willing to gamble with your career?

[lapis plume]

And getting a degree is actually easy but having relevant skills and experience is the important part

[fast fossil]

sure, I'm just not following their logic in that dropping out is somehow going to help them learn stuff on their own when they haven't on their own with the help of college. Like, as if having help in the form of formal academia is somehow regressive? Or maybe that is their thought process, in which case... yeah, idk.

[vapid jay]

that is true broski. but it also depends on what you would do if you werent in uni and what you would do with your time

[vapid jay]

who are you even?

[fringe sphinx]

You are trying to give advice with no experience and have said you don't want to be a SWE. Whats your goal here, except to stir hot takes?

[lapis plume]

I am a serial procrastinator in my free time

[limber arrow]

« How is that relevant » 🤓☝️

[peak halo]

the way you keep asking people "who are you" comes off as dismissive. you absolutely can ask people to describe their educational and professional background (that helps everyone understand where people are coming from), but "who are you even?" is not the way to do it.

[vapid jay]

this AHAHAHAHA

bro how miserable are you with your life im so sorry for u

[fast fossil]

imagine getting muted in this server

[lapis plume]

Guys advise me on what to do . I have basic knowledge of HTML, Python and SQL

[vapid jay]

by the age you finish uni and manage to get a job , I already rent out my property to ppl like u

[fast fossil]

!kin here are some resources, but basically
do projects, practice is crucial

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[fringe sphinx]

This is not how we talk to people on this server. This conversation is over. (Mod privilege)

[vapid jay]

let the malding kid say what he is about to say

[fringe sphinx]

!warn 331812418403696640 Bragging about your parents or you having more money than other people is not consistent with our #code-of-conduct

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @vapid jay.

[lapis plume]

Thanks 😊

[hidden bloom]

how do i make it clear that I was a part of this initiatve that took place on the same dates in both 2023 and 2024?

does this make it clear or no?

[lapis plume]

Put comma and 2023 first

[hidden bloom]

so like this?

[lapis plume]

Yeah it's better

Or you can add 'and' instead of comma too

[white relic]

Do the exact dates really matter?
"2023, 2024"

[lapis plume]

If it's a CV thing it doesn't matter

[white relic]

if the reader needs to know the exact date that Teach a Duck to Code Week happened in 2024 surely they can Google it

[fringe sphinx]

I would put months, like Jun 2023 - Jul 2024

[lapis plume]

That would span for the whole year and would seem odd

[fringe sphinx]

Just thinking out loud; For conferences, it's kinda weird since the prep work may have occurred over multiple weeks or months ahead of time.

[lapis plume]

True

[vital wyvern]

I concur with this take.

Speaker, Idiots Anonymous                2023, 2024
- Talked about my experience being an idiot. 
- Presented novel ideas about the world from an idiot's point of view.

[fringe sphinx]

(Yah, now that I read it again, agree with ^)

[white relic]

vital content

[harsh river]

what was the job title? professional idiot?

[fast fossil]

more like an Idiot Speaker

[fringe sphinx]

Someone has to speak to them.

[sturdy ferry]

Hello, so recently I was wondering how can I make money from coding, im not too experienced so i'd like to learn along the way, if someone experienced could help i'd appreciate it

[hidden bloom]

if i put blank cover letters in, or a cover letter from an another company to make it seem like a mistake is that a bad strategy? i swear they don't actually even check the cover letters... for certain companies

[white relic]

I wouldn't call it a "strategy" to hope nobody is paying attention.
I observed few places require cover letters last time I was hunting

If you need one but doubt anyone will actually read it, I find nothing wrong with writing a generic one and copy pasting it

[thick widget]

Someone can give me a feedback about me? here you can find everything: https://gmdiegolima.github.io/portfolio/
i'm trying to become a professional data analyst, sometime i do some freelances, let me know what you think about, my resume is not 100% updated, i need to fix some parts of my resume

[gritty rivet]

The normal path in most parts of the world is get a degree, do internships and hey a job.

If something like $5/hour is worth it to you, have a look at platforms like Fiverr and Upwork but breaking in and getting your first clients can be very difficult

[fast fossil]

It could be more mobile friendly

[vital wyvern]

!rule paid ad

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[vital wyvern]

Also if you think about this from a business perspective, it doesn't really make a lot of sense that you'll find competent people considering you're violating our rules with posting-- why would I want to work for you when you don't respect the community I'm a part of?

[pine sleet]

Hello, your message has been deleted as it violates our server rules

[peak halo]

!cban 849421316335206400 You seem to be running some kind of scam

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @muted solstice permanently.

[open ivy]

Networking question:

My Linkdin email keeps telling me to follow major CEOs with thousands of followers who don't need any more.
But what about the countless people who have far fewer followers? They are actually approachable and won't just ignore my messages.

Is there any way I can adjust the settings on my email so it can recommend people with fewer followers?

[pine sleet]

Hello, your message was deleted as it violates rule #9

[magic ridge]

hello! i don't know if this is the right place to ask, however this is the only programming community i have.(please let me know if there's a better channel i can use to ask this question)
currently im learning python, and so far my level is still to the class func and tkinter, i want to study other language like JS, or so. i wanted to became a fullstack devs, if i want to go to the next level, what language should i study? i tried study C, but since i heard C is already outdated, im unsure.

[dapper bane]

I was learning golang as an additional skill because I like the language but the jobs are only senior roles very few junior roles

[open bronze]

Hey, if anyone's reading this, I have the same questions regarded C and python, please ping me too!

[buoyant seal]

😉 if fullstack dev is desire, than besides python (where python is technically option), your main aim should be javascript transforming into typescript
you can build pretty much "modern" full stack with it.
TLDR... javascript/typescript is the language of "modern" full stack dev 😐 You can implement everything with it.

@dapper bane otherwise, if your aim working with backend part, it can be optionally done in Python, Java, Golang, and even C#.
Backend frameworks can implement front too as long as u keep stuff to simple html,css and use only vanilla js/jquery or Htmx (htmx is very cool)

[dapper bane]

my current pay is low as a full stack mobile developer (django + react native) a higher pay is desired

been learning all kinds of shit in trading and programming

[buoyant seal]

this is kind of unrelated problem.
Chosing desired language / tech stack is an issue if what is more favourite to work with mostly

I suspect if u wish to have higher payment, than u just need reaching higher qualifications reached in the your desired stuff
Plus building good portfolio for increasing your hirability
That worked for me at least to reach higher and higher payments

[dapper bane]

that is what I am asking I already am working MERN, React Native, Django also learning golang's Gin and Gorm

[buoyant seal]

#career-advice message
You need to work onto your Core Software Engineering skills if u wish to become a real professional in my opinion
improving code quality and demonstrating it at practice

I am a huge golang fan though

[dapper bane]

what do I need to do ?

[buoyant seal]

my advice for devs that wish to build long term stuff and maintain for years. if u aim for freelance, may be my all advices are shit for you.

Go through Code Complete, this is the best book for a CS student to find out about majority of code quality, and other aspects of development that exists there
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#CodeCompleteAPracticalHandbookofSoftwareConstruction

Learn unit testing in full capacity to be awesome. Your code quality will jump by 3-10 times magnitude. Especially if u will be be auto testing your database related code too and it will run automatically on evrey commit in CI just in case
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#TestDrivenDevelopmentByExample
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#UnitTestingPrinciplesPracticesandPatterns

https://darklab8.github.io/blog/choosing_pet_projects.html
Pick good long term project to build, and build projects 😉 Books are dead weight unless knowledge from them was practiced to become your skills.

Continue the road and learn stuff like static typing, head first design patterns, code architecture stuff (check descriptions by links above), they will help to improve things further

Very thorough Unit testing is the most crucial for reaching 3-10 times higher code quality. Other stuff is nice too, as it allows u design cleaner, more self documented and maintainable code that is easier to extend in features

[dapper bane]

but what language shoul I focus on for unit testing ? I wanna do it javascript or python

[buoyant seal]

it is usable with any language. Python, Javscript/Typescript or even Golang, Java and others
In Python in my opinion it is the most easiest to do because of its dynamic typing nature and rich very comfortable testing frameworks with very human friendly syntax

[dapper bane]

ok i ll see unit testing

[buoyant seal]

btw i think golang is awesome in teaching more elegant code writing 🙂
the philosophy and language capabilities open... room for plenty of things not previously seen for devs that used python only for example before
So... definitely beneficial experience too imo.

The most benefit of course only if u use it with unit testing too.. which is easier to get in python than in golang.
Golang is a bit harder to unit test due to requiring more... actions... preparations...code architecture mastery
And without unit testing code is essentially shit anyway... So better approach it with unit testing in mind that is learnt in python for example first

[mellow steppe]

Hey, How is everyone doing i finished a python tutorial and i built a quiz game that is terminal base so what is the next step to be building my career in python do i have to work on a open source project or internship i want to know what to do next?

[buoyant seal]

https://darklab8.github.io/blog/choosing_pet_projects.html
You could consider learning some more user interface tools
and thinking to implement harder projects. Try to find cases when people actually need them in some communities you are part of (or at least it will be useful for you)

In addition i would recommend going through Code Complete
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#CodeCompleteAPracticalHandbookofSoftwareConstruction
This book tells a lot about coding possible aspects, and makes overview regarding majority of stuff u should be aware of existing (even if it is not going into super depth in each topic)

[buoyant seal]

As a very unusual advice to give to beginners i will risk actually advising to go through System Analysis And Design in addition
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#SystemsAnalysisandDesign
That is an interesting book helping to learn project building planning.
Not sure if it is too early for you for sure. But could be interesting experience for you 😉 to think more throughly projects u plan
To have some... basis where to start and to know how to go.

[mellow steppe]

okay @buoyant seal

[thick widget]

Someone can give me a feedback about me? here you can find everything: https://gmdiegolima.github.io/portfolio/
i'm trying to become a professional data analyst, sometime i do some freelances, let me know what you think about, my resume is not 100% updated, i need to fix some parts of my resume

[tepid bane]

The website is nice and the layouts are beautiful...

But you could consider using a better font... It will improve the website greatly

[thick widget]

do you have one font to recommend?

[tepid bane]

Check out google fonts. The most common ones are roboto, lato and nunito

[thick widget]

Got it, thank you

[buoyant seal]

fonts/layout of the web site are feeling off because u don't have any "margin" or "padding" defined to have spaces between elements 😉
Learn to define margin

[buoyant seal]

1. very buzzwordy/technology names only stuff in https://gmdiegolima.github.io/portfolio/skills
   would be nice seeing some core software engineering skills learning, unit testing, SLDC, code architecture stuff

2. also since u are aiming for data analyst, showing your thoughts in article writing i think is more mandatory than nice to have.
   Like... could be cool to see article that shows research why it was done in this way and the process of doing it
   smth like https://darklab8.github.io/blog/article/article_shortest_paths.html

3. reviewed quickly projects, all of them for which u have available github look very simple in amount of effort
   the game looks fun though and with some more effort
   anyway, could be cool building more time effort projects with long term expected living which will grow in their maturity
   https://darklab8.github.io/blog/choosing_pet_projects.html i wrote some advices on this topic here

[thick widget]

i changed small things on the website right now, but i'll keep an eye on how to use margins better
i took notes, thank you for the feedback, can you tell me which one you believe i should give more priority? maybe doing more complex projects? because i only have few ones on my portfolio

i was thinking about my next project be a analyse on a real data, like the criminality of a region with these public government data that governs post on they website, i was thinking about add complexity with some AI tools to try predictions and maybe put it inside a software?

[buoyant seal]

building complex projects without having learnt unit testing is experience for futility of building such project 😉
Some people manage to build quite large ones anyway, 30k+, 100-200k+ code lines
but it is still destined for doom. depending on language capabilities, this doom is far further than in other one though in magnitudes. Like it is incomparable what can do C# vs javascript without unit testing 🤔

So.. i very recommend learning unit testing first before u go into more complex project building
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#TestDrivenDevelopmentByExample
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#UnitTestingPrinciplesPracticesandPatterns

And launching preferable those tests from Github Actions CI for auto documented way how your project is "buildable" to run them
Makes repository way more mature looking if for every commit it does check some quality of a program

[thick widget]

alright, unit testing will be my next topic on my priority to study

[buoyant seal]

Whatever u feel passionate about
Just document throughly research as your thoughts journey
How you came up, improved and reached final result
Write the journey as an article

then it will be way more quality experience, in showing both your journey, and your documentation how it is achieved

otherwise such stuff is just not very presented well

[thick widget]

got it, thank you, i'll try to make the projects page more like articles posts with how i finished all the path and do more complex projects with unit testing

[buoyant seal]

u could have both Projects page and Articles page 😉
At least that's how i do
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/pet_projects.html

[thick widget]

pretty cool, thank you for this idea

[wanton citrus]

hallo

[hidden parrot]

Simple question with complex answers… tensor or PyTorch if going the machine learning path?

[thick widget]

i recommend PyTorch because it is high used in cientific papers, but these questions should be done at #data-science-and-ml

[tall blaze]

hello

[spark cloak]

Hey! I'm a 12th grade university student in Canada and trying to get a job in data science. I'm in track to get into the big universities here in Canada, mainly Waterloo, and if I do then I'll be needing to find a coop job placement year one. I was just wondering what were some ways I can make myself a more valuable employee to improve my chances. In terms of portfolio projects I don't have too too many, but I spent the past few months developing a simple budgeting and savings tracking app and releasing it on Android and IOS using flutter, along with integration with Google firebase. I also have plans to work on a Pokemon card deck builder using computer vision sometime later this year once I have more free time. My skills in purging are decent but I'm not an expert, and I've also worked in html, css, Java, JavaScript and dart, with varying degrees of ability in each but not a pro per say in any. Given all that, what are my chances of landing a high end coop at a big tech company and what can I do to improve my chances? Thabk you!

[peak halo]

I work in the AI division of my company. I'd have to ask my boss what his criteria are for sorting resumes for intern slots.

Your experience with languages other than python probably wouldn't be important.

Your coursework in data science, AI, and math would be important. If you have the option to take any courses in those topics, be sure to take it and do well in the course.

(when it comes to non-intern jobs, it's more a question of "does this person know enough to do the job?", but interns are different.)

[spark cloak]

So does it not matter as much what projects and things I've done? And would it make a difference if my skills in math are a lot stronger than programming, not to say I don't have good programming skills just that I excell specifically in math

[peak halo]

My department doesn't make smartphone apps, so if someone mentions on their resume that they make smartphone apps, it would be as impressive as saying that they design car engines.

[spark cloak]

So focus more so on specifically data science related projects, and increase my knowledge in ai and math courses?

Also, anu other things I should focus on specifically during interviews? I always hear people talking about leetcode but I'm not sure if I should focus on that in first year uni when trying to get a coop job

[peak halo]

Right. And if you're done well in advanced math courses, that indicates that you have the symbolic reasoning skills to pick up whatever we need you to do.

[spark cloak]

What if I have mediocre programming skills but stronger math skills, would they trust me to be able to learn the programming?

[peak halo]

If the interviewer knows what they're doing, the questions won't be ones where explicit preparation will make a difference. The point of the interview is to figure out what skills and knowledge you've organically obtained. Not what information you've crammed for regurgitation.

[peak halo]

I can't speak for them, but you should probably obtain demonstrable programming skill. If there are open source projects you can participate in at your university, that would be ideal.

[spark cloak]

Would I have any shot at a first or second year coop at a major tech company like AMD or Google, and does it mean anything if I have connections at the companies or does that not mean much in the tech industry? Also, how much time and effort should I be putting of my own spare time before uni to prepare for programming there

[peak halo]

High profile tech companies aren't the be-all-end-all. I don't know what their hiring practices are like.

You don't need to prepare or know any amount of programming before university. If you've already been accepted to a university, focus on finishing your current schooling on a high note and enjoying your life.

Let me be clear: at your stage, you should not spend a single second more practicing programming than you enjoy.

Do it as much as you feel like. But if you don't feel like it, do something else. It's not crunch time.

[spark cloak]

So if I don't work now, I'm not gonna fall behind the rest of my peers? I always see a bunch of highschool students having expert levels knowledge in programming and lots of projects and I'm worried thsr I'm gonna fall behind them once I get to university and be unable to catch up

[smoky quest]

anyone can claim to be an expert

[radiant tulip]

who can make good unity assets? dm me please

[fringe sphinx]

First: forget about other people. What Stel said is so true; do what you enjoy. You're a beginner, so literally anything is a learning experience for you. Small incremental progress over a long time is the way... not grinding or trying the impossible (being an 'expert' at something you're not interested in)

[zenith torrent]

guys where can I post some funny python projects I make?

[buoyant seal]

to clarify what BillyBobby said, even building mods for games like Minecraft or Starsector would be a great experience and even portfolio 😉
Literally almost all coding will be beneficial. And more beneficial will be smth that is used by someone, by you, or by game players or smth
Than more fulfilled purpose of your written stuff being needed to someone, then better. Regardless of the domain, as long as it is not anything malicious 😉

[strong lava]

<@&831776746206265384>

[icy berry]

remove this junk

!cban 795596479460933643 compromised account, you can contact the appeal server once you have your account back and have enabled 2FA

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @pulsar kraken permanently.

[deft pelican]

It's very rare to be "expert level" in high school. I guess it was around that secondary school and maybe high school I just did maps in warcraft 3, heroes 3 and games in rpg maker. Today I'm quite good coder.

I learnt computers and programming in university.

[spark cloak]

Appreciate all the advice from everyone! Thank you for much, means a lot. Will take it to heart, thank you

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384> ?????

[leaden jasper]

@north urchin Please follow our rules and adhere to channel topics. That post isn't on topic for our career discussion channel

[keen yoke]

hello all,looking at switching out of sales, looking at IT since where i live is an absurd amount of tech, cybersecurity, and government opportunities. Was curious how possible it would be to break into the field as someone with no degree. been in sales for almost a decade at this point

[worldly swallow]

hey @fringe sphinx have u hire or seen people with "BSc in software engineering" come across your desk

my friend saw that degree and I wonder about it. one person I know said it was good

[keen yoke]

i'm not planning to go to school for it, which may not be smart. i just can't afford (time or money) to spend 3.5 years and thousands of dollars for a career switch

friend of mine works at Amazon, a possible option would be an AWS cert and try and work for them

[worldly swallow]

You can get certs and try to work your way up from a starter job

[keen yoke]

that's probably the most realistic option

[worldly swallow]

CompTIA A+, Network+, MS Azure(i think same thing as AWS) certs

[keen yoke]

for now, as i don't have the required knowledge to take something like that. I've just been chugging through python courses on Code Academy

[worldly swallow]

those courses don't have prerequisites afaik

[vital wyvern]

Typically you study for certifications. Even if you don't intend to get the credential, it can give you a good path to follow in your studies.

[keen yoke]

that's actually a good point

i probably need just a tad bit more baseline knowledge before i hop into studying for a cert

i'm like a couple hours into my code academy stuff so far

[vital wyvern]

Python will have very little impact on overall core competencies in things like networking and IT.

[keen yoke]

ah ok

[vital wyvern]

As you progress 'up' that stack, Python (or any languages) become more relevant.

[keen yoke]

so i guess I should alter my focus and go for more network/it core information

[vital wyvern]

There's no reason you can't do both at once. What I'm saying is that... Python isn't going to magically make these things make sense to you.

[keen yoke]

that's a fair point, makes sense when you put it that way

[worldly swallow]

But something interesting to think about is: When I started I did A+ and a bit of network, I found it boring. After I learned a lot of programming things became a lot more interesting. I went from thinking "ugh the OSI model is stupid" to "woah this is very interesting I'm learning how all these technologies im working with click"

[keen yoke]

i'll probably mix it up, do some python work for a % of the time, and then mix in some network to keep it fresh

would there be a good beginner resource to start learning network fundementals?

checking out youtube to see if i can find anything at the moment

[vital wyvern]

Professor Messer is a common recommendation for video content. A study guide can be had on Amazon for like... $20

[worldly swallow]

yeah network+ study guide on youtube is okay

it kinda just fires off a bunch of stuff at you, I find that my mind glosses over much of it as unimportant because of such portrayal

rapid fire of network topology one after another

[keen yoke]

having trouble with his playlist categorization

not sure if i'm looking at the correct playlist, it's the N10-008 Network+ course

[vital wyvern]

I haven't taken Network+ for what it's worth. A large portion of it isn't... super relevant to the stuff that I do. So the specifics for this course are lost on me except that it's relevant to the field, fairly widely recommended, and reasonably useful.

[keen yoke]

nice, that's a good place to start then

i'm seeing some different N10 codes for his network stuff

the 007, 008 and 009. am i to assume the higher numbers are more advanced?

[vital wyvern]

I believe it's the edition?

[keen yoke]

ahhhh

i was thinking it was like 101, 102, 201, 202 etc

[vital wyvern]

Nah, Net+ is just Net+

[keen yoke]

got it, in that case going for the most recent edition might be best

[vital wyvern]

Yeah. Looking at the website to refresh myself, they're the editions. So the highest number will be the most likely to be something you encounter if you decide to pursue the certificate.

[keen yoke]

nice. so this type of cert would open up some network/IT related positions. I guess if i exclusively focused on Python i'd be looking more at the software eng/developer side of things? python is just an example, I more mean any type of programming language

i apologize if these are bad questions, this is all very new to me

[vital wyvern]

Programming is a tool; it has broad applicability. I'm not telling you not to learn Python, I'm saying that... they don't really overlap until you start progressing in skill. What I'm trying to drive home is that your ability to learn one subset of skills does not rely on your ability to learn the other.

[keen yoke]

understood. instead of questioning it, i'm going to put my head down and start learning. no sense in getting hung up on the logistics haha

[vital wyvern]

That's a good attitude. Your success in the career fields you described are built largely upon your ability to independently study and apply your knowledge across a wide variety of situations. Learn things that interest you, learn how things break, and how to fix them.

[keen yoke]

yeah i think the biggest thing i've heard people say is a valuable skill in these fields is the ability to think on your toes, and solve problems

appreciate the insight, this has been incredibly helpful in finding direction

[vital wyvern]

Good luck. If you find yourself wanting for direction, feel free to come back here and ask again. Learning doesn't happen in a vaccuum. There's plenty of people operating in the fields you expressed interest in that can give you more refined direction as you progress.

[fringe sphinx]

It's pretty common nowadays. In some schools, it's a CS major with a few different courses (a few less theory, a few more applied).

[keen yoke]

thank you ❤️

[fringe sphinx]

It's good, and it's really fine.

[worldly swallow]

broo LFG 😄

[fringe sphinx]

There's also a career in Systems Engineering (sometimes called Sales Engineering). If you have a background in sales, and build some technical skills, there's good money in this.

[keen yoke]

oh wow

[fringe sphinx]

Not every job in tech is programming.

[keen yoke]

i'll definitely consider that, I'm a bit apprehensive to stay in sales since it's a bit stressful