career-advice

[hazy sable]

I am just worried about finding a job tbh

[regal axle]

Not true. First off, hackathons show up. Second, doing things you enjoy naturally put you in an environment of opportunity. Just don't be so focused on ICPC specifically. Focus more on yourself and what you enjoy. Yes, I am skipping so much nuance. But this is IMO the most important aspect of the search

[white relic]

well, the good news is, the job market is just about as bad for everybody, so you can worry about finding a job in any field you want!
IMO software dev had it too easy (compared to other white collar type professions) for so long, they're now just experiencing what it's like to be average and think it's unusual

[regal axle]

More than that, you will actually have something interesting to say, it shows up in interviews. And doing things you care about, will give you a ton to talk about

[little abyss]

I won't be able to get interviews in good companies if i don't have something special in my resume. (something that not a lot of people did)

What makes a resume stand out then ?

[regal axle]

+1 to that last part. The market is just finaly being corrected for some of the crazy things that were going on in that past. Devs were being way over compensated in some situations (crazy benefits and pay that don't make sense long term). And this is just part of that correction. But overall, it isn't really a concern. Maybe short term. But not long term

[white relic]

I mean, you mentioned nursing earlier, that is practically guaranteed job security. But it might not be the kind of job you want. It's not wrong to seek the more secure job, it's not wrong to seek something you enjoy more. Everybody has to make these kinds of decisions.
I really wouldn't suggest going into nursing unless you really want to though.

[regal axle]

If you do something besides just school, you are already ahead of the pack. Yes, there are things that stick out more or less than others. But I would say you have time to worry about that. You are a freshman. You can delay the stress. Just focus on your own personal development and try to work on projects outside of school. Anything is fine. Just do something

[little abyss]

Can you recommend things other than doing personal projects please ?
Things that make a resume stand out meaning things that help in landing interviews in good companies

[twilit portal]

Why do you think doing personal projects wouldn't help?

[little abyss]

That's not what i said. They definitely do help
But I want diversity

[regal axle]

Work. Internships. Personal projects. Personal projects but with multiple people. Solving some complex problem and writing a blog post about it.
Network. Connections. People. People know people and those people get you into an interview.

You don't need all of these things.
I think you are overthinking and over stressing about the market. By the time you graduate, things will be better. More than that, jobs are still being had now. So, you will be fine. There is no expectation of you to cure cancer as an undergrad

[twilit portal]

Open source projects
Something that shows you care about improving your skills
Something that shows you can work with a team
Something that shows you can take business requirements and turn them into a product

[little abyss]

Ok thank you for your recommendations @twilit portal @regal axle

Should I also do hackathons ?

[hazy sable]

fair enough but I dont want to struggle man if I can make a choise that will lead me down a path thats safe that would be good enough for me

[near ocean]

Open source contribs are probably your biggest effort/return value

[hazy sable]

nursing doesnt seem too challenging from what people tell me

[white relic]

idk, have a friend who says he wouldn't have picked nursing if he knew what it would be like.

Take local conditions into consideration. USA health care is... something else.

[fringe sphinx]

The proof is what happens in the interview; I've interviewed many people with good resumes and little understanding.

People who can't remember basic things about, say, SQL and Pandas despite having multiple projects listing them.

[fringe sphinx]

Wow, you're not talking to nurses then.

[little abyss]

They can't remember cause they didn't deeply understand them ?

[fringe sphinx]

No idea why, but they had lots of great projects on paper.

My point is: it's not about building a resume, but building yourself. The resume happens along the way.

🌈

[little abyss]

Doing projects is the only thing i do after learning something new
I mean what else can i do in order to remember what i learned ?

Maybe they didn't do the projects by themselves

[fringe sphinx]

Yes, do projects. Just don't do them solely for a resume bullet.

[regal axle]

There are many ways to define a "project". You learn best by doing and not just consuming. So create something. But idk that I consider a weekend project as a resume project. Again, just focus on growing and learning and exploring, and the rest will just follow. Don't focus on "resume" specifically. It will make things way harder for you

[little abyss]

ok thnx guys

[orchid night]

is there any entry level data engineering jobs or they all mid level?

[regal axle]

There are entry level positions. Why would there not be? Yea, they are a little harder to find / get. But they do exist just fine

[orchid night]

That's why I was asking they are hard to find. I keep on coming across 3-5yrs of experience positions

I do feel entry level jobs are slowly going away and becoming all senior

[near ocean]

I also notice theres not a lot of juniorish data eng jobs, its weird

[orchid night]

not even just in data but in tech in general

[regal axle]

So,,, basically, the market is full of people with experience right now due to layoffs. And becuase there is not a ton of money flowing from things like loans and VC, companies are less likely to make "risky" investments (new grads). But that is 100% dependent on the company. Some people see new grads as less risky. And also, some companies are very healthy and growing well, and they are still hiring as normal.
Point being, is that yea, right now, junior positions are lower than normal. But it will correct itself. And I know that, that answer is one of the worst things to hear if you need a job now. But do note, that it is lower than normal. Not nonexistent. There are still opportunities out there.

[fervent grove]

where do you live at?

[orchid night]

United States

I have 3yrs of experience within data engineering and data analytics

[fervent grove]

oh I'm from europe but struggled last year as well but keep grinding there are occasions out here

[fervent grove]

why still considering urself a junior then?

[orchid night]

I was let go in December due to budget cuts and have been applying to like 100-200jobs and only had 3-4 interviews

[orchid night]

Mid level is like 4-5yrs in my opinion

[fervent grove]

nah depends on the experience gained imo

[orchid night]

I feel it would be easier to get a jr. level position though

[fervent grove]

if u work in rapidly changing processes i think you get attractive to the market pretty quick

[fervent grove]

did u wrote down ur skillset somewhere here?

[orchid night]

I didn’t

[fervent grove]

so what do u offer the market

[orchid night]

Can you explain more

[orchid night]

You want my resume lol that’s a lot to type out in chat lol

[fervent grove]

whats ur experience level from lets say 1-3 in frequently used frameworks

just want a self-assessment from you

[orchid night]

Pyspark, flet, pandas, Django, flask, sci-kit learn, data bricks

[fervent grove]

yeah no
dont give me 20 packages

[orchid night]

I can’t help it that’s what my previous job had me use lol

[fervent grove]

yeah i get that but i wouldnt list all those as the manager hiring often has noooooo clue what those are

u gotta give it to them on a high level and only use common wording like python and sql in general

[orchid night]

They on top of my resume of stuff I know

That’s what I have in my bullets points describing what I did for products

[fervent grove]

i mean u are free to share ur resume but u dont have to

[orchid night]

I do have some web dev experience on the side

[orchid night]

Let me dm it to you

[fervent grove]

i dont answer dms sorry
post it here or we can talk it through, i dont mind

[orchid night]

Let me screenshot it and take some stuff out

[fervent grove]

sure

[errant thicket]

are there jobs in the tech industry paying 100k plus and more? if so what are they?

[fervent grove]

many whats ur background

[errant thicket]

i’m in computer science i just want to know what jobs pay 100k plus could you tell me the jobs ?

[fervent grove]

thats a good question for gpt

[smoky quest]

Anything related to software engineering at least. Product management as well

[orchid night]

I’m on my phone so my resume looks funny promise it looks better on computer

[smoky quest]

It would be more effective to post a screenshot from a computer screen, not a mobile.

[fervent grove]

was about to mention it lel

[orchid night]

Im not home currently

[fringe sphinx]

Most of this comment is based on pre pandemic experiences but: ime, the seniors on the market tend (average) to be low quality. Even if they have experience, the good ones are often retained or land quickly... and if they slip thru, they are clouded by the many 'low quality' candidates

[orchid night]

The skill section doesn’t have gaps on the computer

[fringe sphinx]

This creates a negative bias. I'm not sure how fair it is now, but hiring a senior or principal level engineer has always been harder for me... especially from a cold resume referral

[regal axle]

Fair. Yes. I guess, the first part of my statement isn't the most correct. But the rest should still hold.

[fervent grove]

Gas Work is the only one with a clear goal u achieved

[orchid night]

What do you recommend

[fervent grove]

tell the hiring manager why they want u, dont just list all ur tasks bring ur impact

[orchid night]

I don’t even remember how I made for real I just felt like I was doing work and was limited to what I can I do

[orchid night]

Do you have advice how to effectively to apply to jobs

[fringe sphinx]

It's a good start. I don't love the layout (not the phone layout, but the lack of project titles/structure)

[fervent grove]

respond to the position instead of just sending a standard resume and sell yourself better in your resume

[fringe sphinx]

It needs a few passes to clean up the language

[fringe sphinx]

Step 1 is a good resume. You can choose -later- to be non-standard, but they'll still ask you for a resume

[fringe sphinx]

This is a fast path to getting ignored, in this day of ATS. Might work with a very small company where you can directly contact hiring manager, but anyone else? Nope.

[fervent grove]

i made just fine experience with it, but i guess in general u are right atleast when its in workdays lel

[fringe sphinx]

You applied to a medium to large company with no resume?

[fervent grove]

ofc not but not with a boring standard resume, also wrote a cover letter for each application

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, yah, non-boring is different than 'bad'.

[smoky quest]

Boring is not an issue if you are good

[errant thicket]

wow your right

[fervent grove]

these were my first applications and i wanted to stand out. i doubt whether i would do all the work again 😄

[fervent grove]

as a grad i think its hard to be "good" for the market from the getgo

[fringe sphinx]

Huh? It's easily searchable on government databases too, not very complicated; in short? Nearly every CS career path has potential of 100k+, some take longer than others. Its not a good question, as phrased

[smoky quest]

Younger crowd might sometimes interpret these advice as standing out as a substitute for substance

[smoky quest]

Not really. It's actually pretty easy. The average resume is terrible

[errant thicket]

ok i’ll search also now how i should prepare for jobs that pay 100k? +

[fervent grove]

yep as im now hiring myself i get the points 😄

[smoky quest]

A CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[fringe sphinx]

I don't think so. I have fairly low expectations for a new grad: be competent at one language, have some idea of SWE skills, show a personality we can work with, and show some indication of ability to work/learn/collaborare

[fervent grove]

style < substance ofc

[fringe sphinx]

Too many people believe what they see on TikTok and YouTube about what the job market is like

[errant thicket]

yea i’m getting my cs degree now a guy told me that a year ago in here and i’m getting it so now what should i do? how should i go about my days ?

[fringe sphinx]

We hear about the outliers and FAANG: which are not representative

[smoky quest]

Build things and go deep and broad.
Imagine that you and all your classmates apply to the same job. Why would I call you back specifically instead of any of your classmates?

[fringe sphinx]

Balance: courses, networking/activities (join a club?), practice (build stuff/projects), and learning for fun (anything)

[fervent grove]

that sounds fair to me, I thought i need to stand out more but as i just witness some applications to my listings i understand what u mean

[fringe sphinx]

You still have to pass the OA for most jobs, but after that, it's about being able to talk about SWEing, demonstrating programming competency, and not being a jerk

[errant thicket]

because i’m learning and making projects right?

[smoky quest]

Sure. But so are all your class mates

[fervent grove]

OA even on adv. to senior level?

[fringe sphinx]

Don't sleep on the networking/clubs/social: your best bet for an interview is thru someone you know. Otherwise you're just throwing darts

[smoky quest]

yep. And throw in other types too like architecture and leadership, etc.

[fervent grove]

i really struggle with putting myself in the center tbh 😄

[errant thicket]

ok well so else should i learn in my tool belt? to help me separate from classmates?

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, but seniors do get screened. Plenty of "fakers" out there. Read about the origins of fizz buzz

[smoky quest]

I mean, the point is that you would have projects that go further than your classmates'

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, most of us do, I talk about networking a lot because it's something us techies tend to not be natural at

[errant thicket]

ok thanks

[smoky quest]

People love talking about themselves.
You don't have to be the center. You can start by being a great listener

[fringe sphinx]

That's why I suggested clubs. It's a structured thing, so just showing up is a start

[fervent grove]

i mean im not an introvert but neither like talking for hours

[errant thicket]

hey i’m curious billy what job do you do ? and is it true tech will die because of ai? like coding and stuff?

[fringe sphinx]

Data engineer (is what I say as a lazy answer to that question.)

[fervent grove]

check out fireship lol #hopefullythisisntadvertisement

[fringe sphinx]

I think tech will thrive, not die. AI has potential of letting us spend less time on the mundane.

[true harness]

it's not necessarily about breadth, but depth is also important. if everyone has a boring crud app, and you have some cool app that incorporates message queues and deploying on aws or whatever, you'll stand out

[fringe sphinx]

The amount of drudgery in coding is stunning

Truly no value add to centering a div

[errant thicket]

wow omg you make a killing man im staying in tech i can’t wait to finish my degree mate but the thing is i dont want to wait on that im going for internships as well and what else should i do just keep making projects ?

[smoky quest]

Take it as a learning journey. Max out your learning. You are there to learn and educate yourself
Don't see it as a blocker to a job

[fringe sphinx]

Keep learning. Focus on topics you know nothing about: broaden your knowledge, and don't worry about specialization

[errant thicket]

ok gotcha so just keep learning tech like python java ai libraries and stuff right ?

[fervent grove]

learn some infrastructure stuff by building a Pi or NAS, will help u working with different departments and to address ur needs more clearly

[fringe sphinx]

I mean anything tech cloud, Linux, networking, ML, cryptography, etc. it's not all about coding

Read some computing history books, watch PyCon/Europython videos, etc

There's so many topics you don't even know exist.

[fervent grove]

do nerdy stuff like robotics

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, anything. As long as you're learning new things, you're doing alright.

[errant thicket]

see that’s thing i don’t know a lot of tech industries except coding and stuff but thanks that will help

[errant thicket]

ok i’ll keep learning !

[fringe sphinx]

My philosophy is: you have no way of predicting where your first job will be, what type of role it'll be, or what skills you need.

Chance favors the prepared mind - Pasteur

[errant thicket]

wow ok so just learn anything in tech and keep learning thanks so who are your fav youtubers to watch to learn tech ? pycon?

[smoky quest]

coding is an activity, a mean to an end. It's not an industry

[fringe sphinx]

PyCon and europython are top

As far as YouTubers, I have many. Three.Brown one blue is definitely a top

[fervent grove]

hes the goat

[fringe sphinx]

Who's your fav tech yter(s)?

[errant thicket]

who the goat three brown ?

[errant thicket]

i only watch corey s but i’ll watch those now

[errant thicket]

hey i searched three brown and i only see 3bluebrown

[fringe sphinx]

Oh that. I get the colors backwards

[true bone]

I have an issue, I need an assistant

[pallid ferry]

Is there a way to make mamba faster ? I know it's faster than conda but still...

[errant thicket]

the guy i said is the correct youtuber ?

[fringe sphinx]

Yes

[fringe sphinx]

This is careers channel, see #python-discussion . Also, I doubt it?

[fringe sphinx]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[pallid ferry]

oh shoot I oversaw the channel ^^ thx

[errant thicket]

hey so @balmy spade i want a high paying job and you said that’s a bad goal well what should i do if actually want a high paying job? look for more high paying jobs in the tech industry?

[balmy spade]

Define what "high paying" is.

[fringe sphinx]

technically, you want a high paying career, I believe... not necessarily "job"

(or you should)

[near ocean]

Go to uni, get good grades, study hard, network, do internships, learn to game the leetcode interview, apply to big tech company
Thats about it

[pallid ferry]

micromamba 😉

[errant thicket]

high paying like billy said a tech job that pays 100k+ that’s what i want

billy said it’s possible

[deft herald]

Forgot about
do your job well, get promoted in a couple years, get good ratings to increase your bonus, leave company after 5 years and get hired somewhere else for 50% raise, etc.

[near ocean]

5 years? Boomer timeline, we zoomers ditch around the 2.5year mark

[deft herald]

ah my mistake

[near ocean]

My current workplace has an average tenure of 2.7 years

[deft herald]

dang. My career started in 2012 and i've had 2 jobs lol

[balmy spade]

It's completely possible.

[vapid jay]

I put Skibidi Ohio Rizzler on my resume and I got rejected

[deft herald]

Good

[balmy spade]

100k+ is measurable goal, so already better than just "highest paying". When you reach it, you can say "yup, checkbox that one off the list. Done."

Now, what it takes to get a 100k+ salary job or career needs to be defined.

[fringe sphinx]

It's just a silly conversation. SWE pays really well. What other careers are you considering other than SWE?

[errant thicket]

what you mean by defined your saying the job title? i need to know what job i wanna do? someone told me just to keep doing my degree and keep learning

[deft herald]

go look at "median income [geographical area]" and then compare it to entry level jobs in SWE in that area and you'll feel better

[near ocean]

I have had 2 jobs and im at 2.5 years exp

[errant thicket]

i’ll do any careers in tech i just want to make the most in my career as a tech person i know a few of em such as swe scrum jira master and quantum developer

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe ask a more concrete question about specific choices... asking "which job pays most" is, tbh, a very low-effort question (I'm not criticizing you, just the question)

[balmy spade]

You absolutely should continue your degree and always keep learning. Never stop learning. To Billy's point, align what you're learning with the career you are after.

[errant thicket]

i know it’s a low effort but that’s what i was looking for a high paying tech job

[fringe sphinx]

I mean, ask a better question. What jobs are you considering? Be more concrete

[errant thicket]

ok i’m considering any jobs in tech that does coding or anything in tech that’s all anything that is tech related idc how hard it is

[fringe sphinx]

So you're looking for SWE positions. SWE positions pay well.

The amount you make depends on you.

But https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries

[errant thicket]

ok so a swe position is that really all in tech that pays high swe jira scrum and a quantum developer?

[fringe sphinx]

All those jobs are SWE jobs.

[true harness]

quantum computing is mostly research at this point..

ngl, you should be able to find salary data on your own

[smoky quest]

jira scrum and quantum developers are buzzwords at best and memes at worst.
Please, look deeper into the careers

[errant thicket]

ok how could i find salary data on my own? chatgpt?

[true harness]

aren't you in college? come on man... you need to be able to find things yourself. just Google "tech job salary"

[deft herald]

Protip: chatgpt is not the answer to everything

[errant thicket]

yea i’m in college ok i will type that in thanks

[vapid jay]

On your resume, when you write percentages like increased so and so by 20%. Do companies ask you to verify those results?

[errant thicket]

road to becoming a swe day 1!

[fringe sphinx]

No, but tbh, I ignore that stuff (but this is hotly debated)

[smoky quest]

I would definitely ask you pointed questions about it

[true harness]

it could be asked about, like what methodology you used to measure it, what more you could have done, etc

[errant thicket]

are you at work now i’m at work still at a warehouse lol

[fringe sphinx]

fair, if someone says X%, I don't "believe" them, but I'd ask them to explain it.

[fringe sphinx]

I'm always at work.

[smoky quest]

tl;dr is to not make up numbers. Everything and anything on your resume is fair game for questions.

[balmy spade]

Single numbers are difficult to qualify for the hiring filter that is reading the resume.

[errant thicket]

omg dude do you take breaks

[near ocean]

The grind never stops and neither should you

[errant thicket]

could i know a day of your life i would love to know

[smoky quest]

It's not work if you enjoy it

[errant thicket]

i know old man that’s what i’m doing now grinding this warehouse job while transitioning to tech

[errant thicket]

it’s never work to me people rarely believe me when i telll them every job is the same to me

[smoky quest]

not having found something you enjoy does not mean it doesn't exist.
I want to believe

[errant thicket]

i could be a doc and it would still be the same if i was a janitor

[true harness]

do you have hobbies

[errant thicket]

that’s why i’m going for the highest paying job in tech cause no matter what job i do it will be the same to me

[errant thicket]

yea skating video games coding and air

[deft herald]

janitor Facilities Engineer

/s

[balmy spade]

I guess I'm missing something. If every job is the same, what is the driving factor for "the highest paying" job?

[errant thicket]

because i wanna be really wealthy even being wealthy to me in my opinion is an illusion i still want wealth

[balmy spade]

What is wealth to you?

[fringe sphinx]

SWE jobs pay very well. How much depends on you.

[errant thicket]

being financially free having passive income savings and money coming in

[balmy spade]

A SWE job won't give you passive income so that will need a different plan. What's financially free mean to you?

[errant thicket]

i know how to get passive income i just first want a paying tech job and financially free means to me just me having money where i can take care of myself and people and not have to worry about money never

[errant thicket]

well i got billy bobby on my side

[balmy spade]

I don't think anyone is against you. I'm just trying to figure out your confusing goal.

[errant thicket]

i told you goal is to make the most money in tech i got the idea now

[fast fossil]

CGPT is not the answer, it's a question
and the answer is no 😛

[deft herald]

lol

[smoky quest]

Remember also that if you want to be in the top, you will be in competition with people who are not only hyper driven but for whom it's also a passion.
Thinking about relaxing during your week end? Your competition will be working hard
Thinking about having fun with your friends? Your competition will be networking at a hackathon
etc.

[obtuse root]

i keep seeing reels about homeless cs graduates. is it worth it anymore

[peak halo]

I don't think the market is actually that bad, no.

[obtuse root]

thank goodness 😭😭

[errant thicket]

is that real mate?

[errant thicket]

ok good thanks keep focusing on my degree 😎

[obtuse root]

ive seen too many ☠️

https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/s/OZb4lylrCu

[smoky quest]

The students at the peak will have the first pick at jobs and get offers before graduating
The average students will have average outcome
The bottom students will struggle

[peak halo]

If you've already started a CS degree, you definitely shouldn't stop. University drop outs have the hardest time paying back their loans.

[errant thicket]

k so just keep going in cs gotcha

[errant thicket]

omg

[stiff basalt]

It's usually those who get beaten remember it's a competition your mindset and how much you put into coding will prove the outcome they lost at the game

[vapid jay]

yeah, but how can they verify. It's not like they tell you to go and get all your company logs and statistically prove it. I'm genuinely curious, I'm not planning on lying on my resume.

[pine sleet]

I think unemployment rate for CS degree holders is like 1% so you should be fine

[true harness]

i'm interested to see where those stats came from. it seems pretty optimistic. and what about underemployed CS degree holders?

[pine sleet]

hmm. I appear to be mistaken, seems to be around 5ish percent: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/pdf/coe_sbc.pdf

this is from a while ago though, can't find anything more recent

but regardless, point is it's not a dead field like people online sometimes make it out to be

[true harness]

right. definitely agree with that last point. reddit is not a great source of career information 🗿

[vapid jay]

Why is everyone like there is a shortage of software engineers and then there is layoffs for thousands of engineers? was it covid over-hiring? Or does the term "shortage" refer to senior software engineers specifically?

[vapid jay]

What do you think of this layoff tracker?

[true harness]

what about it

[fringe sphinx]

It's complicated. Primary causes, imo: years of a tight job market then Covid overhiring followed by recession fears followed by high interest rates

[smoky quest]

The people you will be talking to might have done the job longer than you have been alive.
So in terms of comparison, you look to them the same way a toddler looks to you.

[vapid jay]

So basically, they can see through the bs?

[smoky quest]

basically

And besides that, you may be on your 2nd or 3rd interview ever, while they have interviewed thousands of people

[hybrid vale]

its kinda true but overreaction ngl

[pine sleet]

its only true in that there are probably some people that are homeless and have a cs degree but i don't think its really worth worrying about

there are more productive things to worry about

(and fix)

[hybrid vale]

ngl most of the ppl that i know that still dont have job were the ppl that did nothing outside of class in college
like its lowk on u if u didnt do any internships or coded outside of classroom

[pine sleet]

that is reasonable

[visual mirage]

Hi

I am looking for jobs as a python developer

[smoky quest]

linkedin or indeed are great places to look

[visual mirage]

Thanks but is there any person here who knows what company is hiring for someone who is still starting to apply those knowledge have acquired

[smoky quest]

We don't do recruitment or ads here.

In terms of career, a CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[visual mirage]

I am a self learner

[smoky quest]

Sure. So you are choosing a path of extreme resistance with less opportunities, more work hours and less pay

[visual mirage]

I studided compunter engineering too

[pine sleet]

it'll do

better than not having a degree

[visual mirage]

I also graduated mechatronics technology

Programmer can be taught by any person though.

Bill gates quit school and also steeve jobs and mark zuckerberg

[pine sleet]

you are not those people

[smoky quest]

then follow their path and do exactly what bill gates or mark zuckerberg did

[visual mirage]

Its an example

[smoky quest]

they are quite successful though. Worth following

[visual mirage]

Yes that is right.

[smoky quest]

So what's your plan to follow their paths?

[visual mirage]

That inspires me alot. People think degree could aleays be the way to be succesful

[pine sleet]

but anyway, this is not the place for recruitment as has been pointed out. you'd have better luck on linkedin and sites like that

[smoky quest]

The market has proven these people who think degrees are useful right

[fringe sphinx]

Note that they quit -whilst in midst of launching a company not just for no reason-

[visual mirage]

Yes it is but its not always

[fringe sphinx]

Only xxxx's deal in absolutes

[smoky quest]

There are government statistics that link a higher level of income with a higher education

[visual mirage]

Yes that is right. It has a reason and elon musks says college is like having fun

[smoky quest]

College is fun!

[visual mirage]

Yeah it is

[fringe sphinx]

What's your question though?

[visual mirage]

But for them they are serious in developing something

[fringe sphinx]

Are you?

[balmy spade]

When you get into the school and programs they were in, and start a company, then you compare the path you might take to theirs.

[visual mirage]

I have someting i am now creating from scratch though

[knotty drum]

What

Them dudes dropped from Harvard etc, and also they dropped out to work full time, you shouldn't compare yourself to them

[odd dew]

hi, is there anyone interested in joining our team? we’re still looking for members and currently have only 2 members

[peak halo]

This server isn't for recruitment

[visual mirage]

yes i am different to them

who says i am the same with them?

[smoky quest]

The implication here is that you would not be able to reach the same outcome than they have

[visual mirage]

Yes cause we all have different niche

[hybrid vale]

they were also huge outliers, like gates was taking math 55 as a freshman and zuck was already p good at coding coming into college

[visual mirage]

and also we all have uniquness ain capabilities

[smoky quest]

so what's the point to take examples that are completely irrelevant to what you want to achieve?

[visual mirage]

It has a point for a motivations in my own pace of accomplishments

You dont know what lies ahead for the outcomes of people who want to apply what they have learned in their journey

When you have learned something apply it to what you want to do for others

[smoky quest]

nah that's bs

[visual mirage]

And then mind your own business

Yeah for you. Lol

[smoky quest]

statistically, for everyone

You can choose to believe gravity does not apply to you. But you are still gonna behave according to it like everyone else

[visual mirage]

Idk what you are talking about

So keep your mouth shut andcmond your own business

[smoky quest]

or what?

[pine sleet]

that is absolutely not how we talk to other server members

[visual mirage]

You r just wasting your tine

Yeah andcwhat did she said

[smoky quest]

This is a forum to exchange ideas. Receiving opposing opinions is part of the game.
That said, good luck in your future endeavors!

[pine sleet]

people are taking time out of their day to help you and being rude is not acceptable

[visual mirage]

Hecis rude not me

[pine sleet]

i agree that could have been delivered with more tact but that's not an excuse to be more rude in return

[visual mirage]

Lol

[pine sleet]

you are free to not take advice, but being rude is not the way to go about that

[visual mirage]

Bias

[pine sleet]

if you would like to discuss this further, you should DM @severe widget

[proven latch]

Yo

[compact jungle]

Hii

Have you heard of Turing company?

Is it good to join as a developer?

[smoky quest]

never heard of them and no idea.
Might be worth checking blind or glassdoor and linkedin for their vibe

[compact jungle]

Oh okay!

[smoky quest]

probably best to see #❓｜how-to-get-help

probably best to see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[unkempt zinc]

mb this is careeer discussion

[zealous steppe]

I need some advice, I just finished high school and am on my way to uni.
I want to choose computer science as my major since im a nerd and have a passion for computers and programming. What do you think?
Or should I choose a different major but learn programming and stuff as a side skill for freelancing?
Also, I've heard that it's hard to get a computer science job? Is that true?

[graceful owl]

Are you already doing programming?

[tulip peak]

i am a 16 years old , i was taking angela yu 100 days of python course got to day 27 and its been like 3 weeks and i havent continued, so i wanted to start making some money went into some freelancing websites but the projects are so hard for me like i dont understand the things they talked about so i want you guys to give me a roadmap what to learn with the resources to become able to do some freelancing (free resources if possible)

[zealous steppe]

Yeah, kinda.
Beginner in Python, I made some projects and a Discord bot which I'm trying to improve

cool

[fast fossil]

Or should I choose a different major but learn programming and stuff as a side skill?

I would not, I made that same "mistake" myself, I knew I wanted to work as a SWE, yet I had this childhood dream of becoming a Mechanical Engineer, well, I do kinda like (at least some of) the topics and such, but the whole ordeal did not turn out well, I really wish I would have gone with CS instead (I even had the choice to do so, yet I chose ME). I never wanted to work in the ME field afterwards either. My idea was pretty much that having a degree is important and since I like ME to some extent, taking that would be more beneficial, because I could get a job as a SWE afterwards anyway and just pretty much have the ME degree as a backup of sorts.
I lasted about 2.5 months, there were other major reasons for why only that little, but I did realize that I should go for what I wanted to actually do, which is CS.

[zealous steppe]

Oh, okay. Thanks man

[gritty rivet]

There are some nice roadmaps on roadmaps.sh

If your goal is to make money right now, you should focus on getting a normal student job. Freelancing is barely viable for people with advanced knowledge and experience, and not at all for beginners

If your goal is to be a software engineer, you should focus on applying to university and getting a degree

[fast fossil]

idk, last time I looked, them roadmaps there were rather dubious
also this, smh, IT-related website and can't even do TLS (maybe they forgot to renew them certs, idk, but it doesn't help their credibility (flashbacks to when my automation failed to renew certs for my site))

[plush summit]

Why would you actually use pygame when you got game engines designed for it like unreal engine Just wondering

[brazen island]

Maybe a hot take but I really really don't believe in roadmaps

A university degree is the best thing you can do, like Dowcet says. It's definitely not the only thing you can do.

The only roadmap you need is your curiousity

Just be curious, try things out. If you want structure pick up a book. I think that's 10000x more valuable than the "I need to check this box" approach of roadmaps 👍

Programming / comp sci is full of tacit knowledge that isn't really described in books or won't be captured in roadmaps but things you pick up if you go on a natural progression. All that tacit knowledge is the difference between a jr. and more senior devs.

[plush summit]

I mean i feel like a uni degree is good as backup but i also have ppl in my classes Who suck at programming so it is also really important and do side projects imo

[graceful owl]

Because if you want to use python it makes it a lot easier :) imo pygame also doesn't have a lot of the cruft that game engines come with, so it's simpler to just get started and make something

I don't think people recommend making 'real' games in pygame, but that's not really what it's for IMO

[gritty rivet]

I have the wrong URL sorry, it's roadmap.sh

[plush summit]

Fair enough i only use ue but ppl use pygame for fun fair enough was like huh 😅

[graceful owl]

Good for you :)

[brazen island]

I think a uni degree is your best bet by far

But it's not mutually exclusive from doing what I mentioned, that's the best way. Self learn + get a degree

[plush summit]

Ig so but doesn t mean ppl are good programmers feel lile it is a little bit overrated (im at uni myself) the nice thing anout it is learning more about the things around coding and working in a team etc

[brazen island]

Computer science students at the uni I went to don't teach you how to be a programmer. They teach you sciencey stuff. That aspect is done on your own time. At the very least it speaks to your discipline and your ability to absorb/understand abstract material.

(very personal opinion, disregard it if you disagree) Also, it's not that uni deliver successful people imo. You need to swap the cause and effect here. People that are likely to be successful typically go to (good) unis. I don't know how much the fact they went to (that) uni contributed to their success. All we can measure is that, on average, that's where you find good professionals. As an employer I'd be fishing out of pool of people as well. It increases the odds of getting capable people. That's also reason enough to do it, even if it teaches you nothing (I'm being facetious here, it certainly does).

[plush summit]

Yeah that is True same with harvard it isn t the uni Who is special it is the ppl they recruited

[flint merlin]

im a year 13 student in a uk and got a degree apprenticeship offer at capgemini for software engineering but I was just wondering whether doing this kind of thing could make it hard to get into quant if I wanted to. My main goal was to get into cambridge maths, but I got rejected by them and have an offer to another uni called LSE for maths w data science but I'm unsure what to do

when I did the open day etc the apprentices said they work with big companies and u have the freedom to go around in teams which I found nice to hear cuz with like banks sometimes u dont have such freedom, but at the same time if I realise I would have rather got into quant I might be in a more diffiuclt position

[fringe sphinx]

What options do you have though?

Is there an actual decision you need to make, or are you just worrying that an apprenticeship isnt good enough?

[flint merlin]

option is 1) take gap year to reapply to cambridge if the results I will get in the upcoming month are good enough 2) do degree apprenticeship 3) do lse data science with maths

[flint merlin]

i think the apprenticeship could be good enough because it seems as though I will get a lot of hands on exp with different projects but idk

[graceful owl]

what stage did you get rejected by cambridge at? did you fail STEP?

[flint merlin]

nah it was interview - I got pooled then rej from trinity

i did STEP anyway and I think I got 1,2 sadly - I messed up step 3 a bit but step 2 went well

but u never know I could get higher or lower cuz STEP marking u just dont know

[flint merlin]

are u currently at camb

[graceful owl]

ah, keep in mind that it's a bit risky to reapply then if you might not get an offer or make it

[graceful owl]

nah, but i was a couple years ago :) i did compsci though

[pale marten]

does the college you go to actually matter?

[regal axle]

In a way. Yes.
Better college will have better resources and better connections. And that is what you are paying for. Some schools have better programs. And they are actually better. Or rather, some schools just have really bad programs.
But at the end of the day, it only makes a small difference. What you do during your degree will have a larger impact

[fringe sphinx]

It depends. On you, on your choice of schools, on your major, on your country, on why, on what 'matter' actually means. These context free questions are clearly unanswerable.

[brazen island]

Depends so much on the country, that's why it's unanswerable indeed

[pale marten]

does it matter to the employers when they see your resume?

[fringe sphinx]

Again, depends on all the above.

[brazen island]

Where do you live?

[pale marten]

canada, finna go to college in the us

[fringe sphinx]

In general, outside a handful of top schools, I don't think uni 'ranking' matters.

(Let's not meme dump)

[pale marten]

ivies would probably make me a standout

[fringe sphinx]

Sure, if you're a standout that gets into a standout school will mean you're a standout.

[brazen island]

From an outsider's perspective, I think that outside of ivies there's also a lot of variance in US programs, no? Even aside from the prestige I feel like there's just some plain bad ones out there?

[fringe sphinx]

Yah but employers really won't know the difference. I sure don't... one of my best hires was from what is probably the worst school in my region (according to the hire)

[brazen island]

Makes sense. I think this is moreso a consideration for the student. Still don't think it matters too much because a lot of the learning happens outside of the classroom anyway.

[flint merlin]

yea makes sense, if I get the step grades ill consider reapplying if not then ye

do u think I should just go with the degree apprenticeship if I want to play it safe cuz I want to be able to secure a SWE or quant job without having to worry baout getting an internship during uni

[graceful owl]

yeah afaik if you have the STEP grades beforehand it makes you a much more attractive candidate, cambridge already over-offers by like 2x and waits for STEP to cull a lot of offers

[dense mesa]

Will be very difficult to get a quant role without an internship

[graceful owl]

hard to give a definitive answer without being in your position

i will say that the quant SWEs I know were all top performers at university, v v good at maths and programming

[flint merlin]

hmm

[graceful owl]

while you (probably) don't need a degree/be in a top program to get a quant role/internship, it definitely helps

[dense mesa]

Depends on the shop

[flint merlin]

hmm I am getting a degree but its at a uni called sheffield hallam so not the best but its all paid for tbf

[graceful owl]

what kind of quant firms did you want to go to? like jane street?

[dense mesa]

That's not particularly a target for quant places 😅 unless you mean the degree is for an apprenticeship?

[fringe sphinx]

(My only advice here, from quant adjacent world, is; there are -many- quant shops... it's not all Jane st/etc)

[nocturne valve]

Heeey!!!
Good Morning!

Does somebody know the best ML (Machine Learning) engineer roadmaps for basing on my studies?

[fringe sphinx]

Tell us about you and your studies.

[dense mesa]

If they're making enough money to not fold after a couple years then they're pretty selective

[fringe sphinx]

That's bad math: statistically there's bound to be survivors out of dumb luck

🙂

[dense mesa]

2 years is enough to put them out of business otherwise. Even with dumb luck, bad risk management and position handling will get you out quickly

[brazen island]

What I can say about data science and ML is that the supply vastly outweighs demand because it's the end game for many non-comp sci quantitative degrees, especially those that don't want to go to academia and/or want to get out of it.

I don't really believe in roadmaps (scroll up if you want to know why 😄 ). Your best bet is knowing comp sci fundamentals if you're from one of those. That's sorely lacking in most people from such a background. If you're in comp sci I'd say domain knowledge or just a genuine interest in acquiring it is what you should have.

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe, let's say they're competent but have their models are not better than a randomly selected model

[dense mesa]

Not considering prop shops, any investor backed funds will need a sizeable AUM to keep the lights on and pay staff. Places like that aren't typically running on luck for long

[nocturne valve]

I started by a youtube video class, I learned logical and arithmetic operators, conditionals, nested conditionals, modules and packages, file formatting, try except, the basic, was going to study sorting methods, and OOP next.

[fringe sphinx]

I believe Taleb has a whole chapter to this fund survivor problem in Black Swan.

I won't rehash it, but I agree with his conclusions.

[brazen island]

Then my advice would be to continue just getting a broad base in programming/comp sci before going to specific ML engineering things

[dense mesa]

This whole thing about "oh they don't ever beat the market" is so overused. Institutional capital has mandates for max drawdown, liquidity laddering, and so on. You can't go for a random strategy and keep investors in when they see your PnL go nuts for a month due to poor bet sizing or whatever

[brazen island]

I think you're missing billybobby's point. It's the same correlation != causation point. That's all it boils down to. I agree with him. Because you're doing well doesn't mean you know what you're doing.

[dense mesa]

I've read Taleb's stuff and agree with a great deal of it, but I find that applies way more to discretionary.

Deploying any quantitative models implies a level of technical ability (forgetting the finance even) that would also demand people have some rough idea of how to not lose everything at least.

[dense mesa]

The tear sheet for a "dumb luck" fund would quickly say otherwise lol

[fringe sphinx]

Problem is that luck is such a big factor to begin with, how does one ascribe 'dumb' luck to anything?

(As we get into the futility and nihilism of the finance world)

But yah, I get your point. Technical competence vs 'smart' mean different things

[dense mesa]

If a fund has a max drawdown of 5% over a 2 year period, that's pretty good evidence that they have some idea of what they're doing.

Figuring out the hedging, risk management and convictions to take for that is not easy.

Which is why it's a competitive industry

[brazen island]

If you disagree with me you disagree with basic statistics 🤷 . You can make random decisions and have it all right. With enough simplifications it's a binomial distribution. Knowing what you're doing increases the success chance but there's always a non-zero chance of going on a long streak of always getting it right with random decisions.

[nocturne valve]

And Web Scraping, I learned considerably!

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, so what zestar said. Don't worry about Ml at this stage: keep becoming a better programmer. Are you in Uni or pre uni?

[nocturne valve]

In Uni, Data science and Machine Learning itself (The course name), and also I studied about 3 months before being in the classes.
I want to study out from de graduation too

I am in the half, it's 3 years and a half, I made 2 years

And I know power BI, A little bit of DAX

[fringe sphinx]

Based on this, it sounds like you need more Python learning. Do small projects and practice, then go through Kaggle.com/learn and learn some data fundamental

[nocturne valve]

I learned How to use some AIs from Sk learning

[brazen island]

In machine learning engineer interviews/roles your CS fundamentals are what land you the job, as opposed to just knowing ML. So yes, keep going with the fundamentals 🙂

[fringe sphinx]

Great, Sklearn is important starting point. If you know that, it'll be easier to use many ML libraries

[nocturne valve]

Actually, I am doing a PIC (Scientific Initiation Program) here where I live and It works like standalone work but leaning for researches.

DRUG DESIGN AND ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE: Predictive Analysis
in the Discovery of New Drugs Through GPCR

The title is the one above!

[fringe sphinx]

Not to rehash, but I think your point is just about technical ability: these are signs of good operations and risk management. You're not making a comment about funds success or luck or models, right?

[dense mesa]

Do you work in the industry

[nocturne valve]

I made a entire ETL of the database containing proteins and their properties

[dense mesa]

There's so much misinformation about the industry, people see dollar signs and start coming up with their own ideas of how it works.

It's a very competitive industry because the luck element is taken out of the equation as much as possible.

Just because some funds do well on luck (again, discretionary typically) doesn't at all mean a quant fund will "do well" in the same way.

Operations and risk management are a major part of the game, finding good strategies is a matter of research.

A quant fund having a "lucky year" doesn't keep it from having terrible statistics in every other way possible. Returns are not everything, and it's a very reductionist perspective to take

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, that last part is all I was saying: our topics diverged earlier in the thread.

(I was saying inverse, that a competent firm can fail miserably)

[brazen island]

I don't, but don't think it matters either way because it's a general principle in stats, unless for some reason finance is exempt. doing well != you made the right decisions, the inverse is probably also true. That's all I mean.

[dense mesa]

Fail on what metric? If they have good risk management and hedge their positions, they shouldn't be in any way close to failing in terms of losing all their funds.

Not getting good risk adjusted returns over some timeframe is fine and accounted for, as long as the capital is preserved

[dense mesa]

Statistics is a way to model the world. It's not reality.

[short fern]

hey fellas

Should i make my carrer be robotics engineering?

it seems pretty good with the new war tech being shit ton of drones

[fringe sphinx]

Quant firms have certainly failed spectacularly. Crowding is one big factor.

[brazen island]

Feels like this is off topic, so I'm just going to agree to disagree lol

[dense mesa]

I'm stressing these points because I got similar unqualified advice at a few points and it's a lot more damaging than people think.

[fringe sphinx]

What advice would you give? (Genuinely curious, don't mean to come across as argumentative)

[dense mesa]

It's a very competitive industry, but can also be very rewarding in light of the long hours and problems you face.

A lot of it is about both prestige of the school and course, and having the aptitude+motivation to have done projects and also grinded zetamac/brainteasers/leetcode

[vapid jay]

Are you talking about Quant firms in particular?

[dense mesa]

Sure there's some places that may have a few mil AUM and take random people on, but they won't be getting enough in fees to cover salaries for the most part

[fringe sphinx]

But what was the advice you wish you knew before? What would you tell yourself back in Uni?

[dense mesa]

Very loosely yeah, it's too broad of a term

[vapid jay]

I want to work for a Quant firm but mainly to learn how Quant firms trade and then use that knowledge for myself to make money.

[dense mesa]

Get into the most prestigious possible university, anything that's a target for those kinds of places.

Do a very relevant degree such as maths, CS or stats.

Grind brainteasers, leetcode, IMO medals or whatever

Do projects and post about them online

Get spring weeks as early as possible in IB or equivalent, use those to stand out more for internships at quant shops

[vapid jay]

All of that to make money for someone else? lol

[fringe sphinx]

How does that differ from the advice you got?

[dense mesa]

I received similar sentiment here such that uni isn't as important as long as you get good grades, there's many different quant places that can take you even if you're not on your game

[dense mesa]

Considering I don't need to spend tens of millions on infra, ops, reconciliation, reporting, data feeds, accounting, compliance, and many more, yes

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, when we're talking here: my belief is: for SWE positions, outside the top schools, uni prestige doesn't matter significantly.

[dense mesa]

Yeah completely agree. Not to be a one true Scotsman guy, but for "true quant" prestige is pretty important

[vapid jay]

What's a prestigious university? Ivies?

[dense mesa]

Idk for the US, I would assume ivies and maybe some others. For the UK it's some of the Russell group unis but not all

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, on the quant topic, I work with many analysts who might not be true quants but consider themselves quants regardless. There is a larger field of financial analysts with coding skills who aren't necessarily trading on their algo's

[dense mesa]

Yeah they get thousands of applications for each position sometimes. Much easier to whittle it down by being selective on uni: the admissions team of that uni has done it for you

[vapid jay]

To work for Jane street, you need to be able to solve these Jane Street Puzzles

[dense mesa]

I've seen sell side risk analysts call themselves quants tbf. In my view, if they're not actively working on ideation and (to some degree) implementation of live trading strategies, it's not quant in the way most people associate it

[fringe sphinx]

Let's call those capital Q Quants 🙂

[vapid jay]

The word Quant signifies a certain baseline level of education in mathematics. I think that's the difference.

[dense mesa]

A lot of it is dealing with bad data from a vendor, trying to map across different identifiers for backtesting, sitting and reading random financial reports, reconciling baskets you can't trade because compliance has restrictions

[fringe sphinx]

Va_rx's distinction is more fundamental: there's many analysts who have strong math backgrounds and coding skills who aren't 'Quants' in the sense of creating and implementing strategies.

[dense mesa]

Yeah in the sense of "quant" being people getting the big payouts, you need to have some skin in the trading game imo. Obviously personal and anecdotal but I share the perspective with many others in the industry

[true harness]

naturally the people closer to the thing that's making the company money are making more

[fringe sphinx]

I also think many of the folks hired on at, say, Jane as Quants will not become Quants, but rather quants 🙂

[vapid jay]

Quants at companies are usually doing research, then the Quant Developers implement and test the strategies built by the Quant researchers. It's an entire pipeline.

[dense mesa]

QR ≈ QT but there are pretty marked differences in implementation

[thick rune]

One of my family members told me to leave software engineering since it’s a “dying field”
Whenever I hear this it bothers me and makes me think if they are right
The main argument was ai will take my job “since ai knows how to write code and you are useless”
It makes me question whether they are right and it really makes me depressed

It makes me think should I keep coding or switch careers cause someone told me ai is better than me
It does in fact bother me

[dense mesa]

Does this person work in software or tech in any capacity

[peak halo]

I research and develop generative AI systems professionally.
AI won't fully eliminate software development in the foreseeable future. The worst case scenario in the next ten years is that there are fewer opportunities for junior devs, but if you start now, you can secure your place in the industry before that happens.

[thick rune]

Nope they are in finance and say
“They keep note of ai companies and have been investing in tech or something”

[dense mesa]

There's your answer then. They don't know what they're talking about

[peak halo]

since ai knows how to write code and you are useless
this is the least nuanced take of the day. I use generative AI to help me write code pretty much every day that I work, but I know what I'm asking for and can validate that the AI's output is correct. If you couldn't write a piece of code on your own (even if you would need hours to read documentation and experiment), you can't effectively use AI to produce it.

the field that I think will really be decimated by generative AI is marketing. My sister recently dropped out of a marketing program and has started an apprenticeship to be a plumber. And I'm glad.

[thick rune]

How does generative ai affect marketing just curious to see what’s your take on that

[peak halo]

if you can generate images and text with prompts, that takes care of most social media marketing

[thick rune]

Well yup that’s true
I think content writing freelancing will take a big hit

Oh I didn’t know gpt4 is now deprecated

[brazen island]

I don't know if it's a typo but I'd go for CS instead fo SWE (if it exists)

Would be strange if UvA doesn't have CS

https://www.uva.nl/shared-content/programmas/en/masters/computer-science/computer-science.html

fair

[fringe sphinx]

Creative is definitely taking a hit. Adam Savage (mythbusters) talked about this recently on his yt.

[brazen island]

Nothing stops you from doing <60 ECTS per year though? I think nowadays most classes are recorded anyway?

Tuitions scale per studypoint, like per credit

Yup, I was just going to say that. I'm speculating. You're one call away from the faculty to get the details (when you're ready of course)

Definitely

Having a probation period is a bit ... ew though. Especially since you're required to relocate

How are they doing it legally? A contract of a month and upon positive review they give you an indefinite one?

So how do you have a probation period with a 1 year contract? Was it in the contract? Is it legal? I'd check this out 🙂

Especially since employers are known to put dumb things in contracts that are unfenforceable

Interesting, that's definitely not a thing in Belgium. They'd give you a three month contract and then a new one afterwards

Wow, that's interesting. TIL

It is, but the difference is that I'd refuse to sign any contract that starts with a 3 month temp contract with the promise of a new one with indefinite length afterwards in Belgium

From what I can see we're outliers though, either way you'll be fine

[regal axle]

I am very unfamiliar with what a probation period actually is?

How does it actually impact your position?

[true harness]

at my company we have a period of 90 days where you don't get the most beneficial benefits, and are given performance reviews more often. if your performance isn't satisfactory at the end, you're fired

[fringe sphinx]

Probationary periods are a bit of a legal cover for firing "bad" hires. US is mostly at-will, so you can be fired at any time, but the prob period makes it a bit easier for HR to quickly terminate without going through a whole process

Even though US is at will, HR still needs to protect against wrongful termination lawsuits

[summer roost]

"Work for us for N days, and when time is almost up we'll tell you if you can keep working for us or not."

[vapid jay]

performance improvement plan?

[fringe sphinx]

The idea of a prob period is: a pip isn't needed if the performance is bad.

[true harness]

no, more like "performance evaluation time"

[vapid jay]

So if there is a signing bonus, companies don't pay that bonus until after 90 days?

[true harness]

i don't know about "companies", but at my company, the signing bonus isn't really yours until a certain amount of time. i.e., you can't take the signing bonus and quit

[summer roost]

signing bonuses are typically paid at the start of the probationary period, not the end. They're a way to defray relocation costs and the risks associated with probationary periods.

but as @true harness says, there's typically a clawback of signing bonuses if you quit too quickly. That tends not to apply if the company lets you go, though.

[true harness]

right, yeah. you get it at the start, but there's restrictions attached

[leaden jasper]

The US Gov't tends to have a 1 year probationary period, but it's also very difficult for the us gov't to fire employees once the probationary period is over which is why it tends to be so long

[summer roost]

I've actually been fired at the end of a 6 month probationary period before. It was the right call for them. I hated that job, and in retrospect it would have been better for me to realize that and quit on my own, heh

[faint depot]

Even though the previous jobs I’ve had are just supermarket jobs, probationary periods in the UK is 3 months

[patent robin]

what is a common task a boss could ask me to do if I'm a jr python developer in an X company

[near ocean]

Ask your boss?

[patent robin]

I don't have a job

[true harness]

what is an X company

[stone nymph]

We have somewhat similar github identicon (pfp)

[fringe sphinx]

I imagine part of working at an X company is Elon Musk yelling at you for not being hardcore enough.

[pastel thunder]

did you get a termination letter?

[summer roost]

a letter? I dunno, maybe - why?

it was a long time ago, who knows what paperwork I may have gotten 😅

[pastel thunder]

just that, getting terminated harms your probability of getting rehired.

In background verification, if I dont give number of last employer, how will they get feedback and do background verification ???

[summer roost]

by "rehired", do you mean hired by the same company again? or hired by a different company?

[pastel thunder]

different

[summer roost]

then no, being terminated by one company does not necessarily harm your chances of being hired by a different company in the future

[harsh river]

i've always heard it depends on the cause of termination

[summer roost]

sure, and the new company will generally only hear your side of that

[harsh river]

fair enough

[pastel thunder]

dont they call your last employer?

[summer roost]

in my case, if anything, I think it helped my chances of getting hired at the next company, because boy did I have a story to tell in the interview

[summer roost]

sure. They asked the previous employer if I had worked there during the dates I claimed to, previous employer said yes.

[pastel thunder]

I am just afraid cuz, even though I am resigning on my own, I am afraid my current employer might mention my performance wasnt good, as the HR know about it.

[summer roost]

if you're in the US, they almost certainly won't

[pastel thunder]

I am indian but its US based popular top mnc. I hope regulations follow here too

[summer roost]

no idea what the culture in India is, you'd have to ask some Indian professionals about that

here in the US, the standard is that companies are reluctant to say anything opinion-based when called by the new company, because it opens them up to potential lawsuits

from the old company's PoV, telling the new company anything about your performance opens them up to legal risk and has no advantages

[vapid jay]

Do you think its fair to call Data Engineering a subset of Software Engineering?

[harsh river]

sure, it's just a specialized field of soft eng

[pale marten]

is it difficult to get an entry level job in software engineering

[fringe sphinx]

What is difficult to you?

[pale marten]

not easy, hard

[fringe sphinx]

what do you consider easy?

[true harness]

it's not easy...but it's not particularly hard either..

[pale marten]

making instant ramen, very easy

[fringe sphinx]

great. its harder than that

[pale marten]

BillyBobby, do you have a degree in CS?

[fringe sphinx]

yes

[pale marten]

Phd? Masters?

[fringe sphinx]

masters. I studied for my phd but didn't finish.

[pale marten]

fun fact, my father also didnt finish his phd, he studied electrical engineer

what are the advantages of having a masters compared to a bachelors

[fringe sphinx]

having more education.

[pale marten]

just that?

[fringe sphinx]

what else is there?

[smoky quest]

It's about the implication

[pale marten]

more career opportunities?

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno. You're asking very open ended, dare I say low effort, questions. It's impossible to provide useful answers to context-free questions.

which masters? what country? what career path? what experience? how hard someone studies? what someone does with it? etc.

i think a masters is a worthwhile thing to do, for yourself, but not a necessary or particularly career impacting thing.

[pale marten]

If you do not like my questions, may you please show me how to ask questions that get me the better response?

[true harness]

they just told you what information to provide

[fringe sphinx]

asking "is it difficult to get an entry level job in software engineering" is an underspecified question. It lacks any useful information... like country, education, experience, skills, which industry, visa/work authorization, onsite vs remote, in what timeframe, etc.

same with "what are the advantages of having a masters compared to a bachelors". what possible answer can we provide here other than "it depends"?

A better type of question, imo, is: providing your current situation and asking a concrete question about a decision you need to make.

[pale marten]

With a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science in the USA, is getting a job as an onsite software engineer straight out of college difficult ?

[fringe sphinx]

Yes, it requires a lot of planning, preparation and effort.

[summer roost]

I wouldn't say it's "difficult" necessarily, more time consuming. You can expect to need to apply to a lot of jobs before finding one that will hire you. Prior internships can save some of that work, because companies are often willing to re-hire previous interns for full time roles

[fringe sphinx]

I'm wondering they really meant: 'how likely' vs 'difficult': like, what's the chances of getting a job vs how hard it is.

[sand patio]

how does something like a math or physics degree compare to a cs degree when searching for jobs?

[fringe sphinx]

I don't have a broad enough informed opinion on that, but anecdotally the math/stats majors I've interviewed have often not been great SWE candidates... but one of my best hires was a stats major from CMU who was/became a solid SQL dev

[sand patio]

oh I see

Is it similar for internships while you're in uni? Do companies look at specific departments/majors when finding interns?

[fringe sphinx]

I don't even remember how we even saw her resume.

[sand patio]

for some schools that I'm applying to, they let you select a sort of "backup" major in case you don't get into your first choice one (which for me, is CS), so I'm wondering what a decent option for that would be

[pale marten]

SWE?

[pine sleet]

CE usually has a lot of backfills from people who didn't make it in to CS

[pale marten]

whats CE?

[pine sleet]

computer engineering

[sand patio]

hmm maybe, but to be honest I'd like to be more on the theoretical/mathematical side in school.

[pine sleet]

same deal with EE

[pale marten]

Robotics

[sand patio]

would I still be able to take CS/relevant math classes if I'm not a CS major?

I guess that'd somewhat depend on the school

[fringe sphinx]

You can always minor, I believe

[sand patio]

I see

[pine sleet]

yeah sometimes the classes have restrictions on them

[sand patio]

I guess I can just drop in on the lectures

[pine sleet]

i mean sure, but its not the same

[sand patio]

yeah that's fair

[fringe sphinx]

Go to the school and search for 'computer science minor', there'll be a list of courses you'd have to take

[sand patio]

I see, thanks!

[pine sleet]

if you don't get into CS for a particular school imo you should look at other schools then

doing a major you don't wanna do is not fun

[sand patio]

tbh I'm not aversed to a degree in math or physics

I'm sure I'd still like both

[fringe sphinx]

In fact, do that for all the schools you care about. Look at the major requirements too: some schools make you take a lot of geneds, others don't, etc

[sand patio]

it's just the job prospects I'm worried about

[sand patio]

I see, I'll do that, stick it in a spreadsheet or something

[pine sleet]

im getting cooked by geneds

[fringe sphinx]

Some CS programs are part of college of engineering, which means a bit more math and sciences... others it's part of math, etc

[sand patio]

I see

[fringe sphinx]

And, some schools are very generous with AP credit and others aren't.

[sand patio]

I'll need to research that too, then

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, my son's school is very generous. He's entering as a sophomore based on transfer and ap', apparently

[sand patio]

lol, I was talking to a guy at Georgia tech, apparently he entered school nearly a junior because of ap creds

[fringe sphinx]

Also: you can take college courses during your HS summer. Easy way to knock out some freshman credits.

[sand patio]

oh huh, next summer? Might be too late this summer.

some schools also offer like, an honors college type thing, right? where if you qualify, you don't need to do a bunch of gen eds and whatnot

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, probably a week or two too late for second summer session

I don't know how that works, but I thought it was just a different cohort, but same requirements.

[sand patio]

actually, how would that've worked? Through a community college?

[sand patio]

I see

[fringe sphinx]

He took it from big state U, but many U's have the option for non degree students

[sand patio]

I see

[fringe sphinx]

Community college would've been fine too

[sand patio]

I appreciate the advice, thanks!

[vapid jay]

What does [a] mean in terms of unpacking? like [a] = something. What are you getting?

[fringe sphinx]

Wrong channel, see #python-discussion

[vapid jay]

yeah, I just noticed lol

[safe coral]

Hi guys

So some people said my resume looks way too over promising

And told me to drop the numbers from the resume . I’ve been told that I should stop saying improvement by 20% and bla bla

Because recruiters won’t buy it

[stiff basalt]

Hmm let me see your resume

It does sound promising and people do tend to think closed minded depending on how you put it in your resume I don't see a problem with it

[safe coral]

I fixed it @stiff basalt This is how it looks now

[stiff basalt]

It looks really good it's an eye sore to look at tho

Smth about these resumes always look bland

Although 2 bachelor's and a master is impressive I'm sure with enough outreaching you will def get a job

[harsh river]

that's not always allowed btw, gotta speak to the proff first

[stiff basalt]

Don't get caught lol

[harsh river]

not all colleges have large class sizes

[stiff basalt]

That is true, be strategic about it

If it's a small class ya your probably best asking for permission lol if it's large play it cool

[pine sleet]

should be fine for the colleges aboo is looking at

[harsh river]

not for RIT, the others idk about

[safe coral]

whats eye soring about it? @stiff basalt

maybe I can fix it hehehehe

[sand patio]

I see

[hybrid vale]

that's not too rare as an alum of that school, some of my friends entered with almost a 100 credits so they graduated in 2 years

[verbal plume]

guys i need to have 10 people say "Onionz are delish!" for an online comp im in its for money please yall

[peak halo]

<@&831776746206265384> encouraging people to spam (@verbal plume)

[verbal plume]

i hope you face the most horrifying of bugs

[summer roost]

please delete this and don't do it again.

[verbal plume]

just ban me then, javascript for life

[summer roost]

meh, that seems like overkill. Just stop being weird.

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> shitposting again

[pale marten]

wait, im sorry, ill delete

[pale marten]

jesus, wtf is shitposting, i deleted everything, sorry

[pine sleet]

stick to the topic of the channel. we will be escalating infractions if this continues

[stiff basalt]

You all stuff so much info on to one page it's all clumped up and ik people say it's the standard to have a 1 page resume but I disagree it's hard to read and a pain to look at and most the time they are over looked

[atomic siren]

Hey

[barren sparrow]

Hlo

[brazen island]

IF it's truthful. If I see "improved process by X%" on someone's resume, best believe I'll ask how they measured it (especially for a data role)

I'm saying this because I've seen the advice floating around here that you need to be able to show quantifiable impact on your resume and I feel like many people here interpreted it as "ok let me put some random numbers on it"

[twilit portal]

What would be a different way of showing impact (without numbers)?
Or are you just saying "don't lie about the numbers, actually measure it"?

[graceful owl]

is impact always measurable?

[twilit portal]

Hmm I don't know it's always measurable but I would say it's not always quantifiable
I don't know if those are different

[brazen island]

Yes, the ones you had seemed realistic. If you say "reduced cost of cloud service by X % by doing Y" it seems way more plausible.

And also something that is easily measurable etc. even if you had 70 % or so there I wouldn't ask

[primal grotto]

👋🏻

[brazen island]

It's when it's vague like "increased operational effiency by X% by doing a data analysis on Y" that I get skeptical

Yeah, you know where I stand. I definitely think there's multiple ways to do this and probably both are fine lol

[bright grail]

I'm looking for someone to practice leetcode with. I'm a beginner in python with no background in CS. Mostly I need help with understanding regularly used algos.

[neat tartan]

Hey there! New to discord trying to find a nice scripting community.

[fringe sphinx]

Welcome! #python-discussion is probably the best channel for you

[fringe sphinx]

No, and -IMO- it's not terribly important. Responsibility and accomplishments are more important, in my view: most dev accomplishments don't have a measurable impact. Even talking about how many user stories or issues you closed: who cares? If you close 10 issues or 100, that tells me little. And claiming sales, revenue, customer satisfaction, etc impact? Hah.

[fringe sphinx]

I was responding to the question: "is impact always measurable?". Deploying to X users is, to me, about responsibility than impact/result, and is a good bullet. Saying you increased customer satisfaction by 20% is less helpful unless you have a very good explanation of how you measured that / participated in UX studies /etc

[true harness]

seems like a different way of wording the same thing 🤔. isn't "impact" just saying "i was responsible for this impact"?

[fringe sphinx]

Don't think so: impact is - improved things/changed things/etc - increased performance by x, for instance. Responsibility is just context of your job / tasks

It's the improvement stuff that often seems like BS.

[true harness]

but how do you have one without the other? if you just say "i managed a team of 10 people", or "i worked on this pipeline", you're missing the "who cares" or the "what's cool" about it

[fringe sphinx]

Just to be clear / emphasize this was my view, and I know reasonable people disagree. I'm not suggesting anyone drop it entirely, only that I discount it

Especially when a junior engineer is making broad claims about improving their UX by 50% or other exaggerations

I think most dev jobs have very quantifiably unmeasurable impacts.

[twilit portal]

Could be true if the original UX was garbage
But then it wouldn't be much of an accomplishment

[fringe sphinx]

But how's the junior engineer even going to measure this? And did they really work alone? Etc

[twilit portal]

Good point

[fringe sphinx]

Extreme analogy is saying: built xyz widgets at Amazon, resulting in a 19% increase in AMZN stock price.

[graceful owl]

i feel like that cause and effect is often really hard to quantify, unless you're like in charge of the whole thing

even then though there's external factors

[fringe sphinx]

to rewind to the beginning of the convo: the test is whether you can defend a statement on the resume. If you can talk through the entire chain of cause and effect and explain/substantiate it? Great

[twilit portal]

[white relic]

IMO the problem with bullet points like that is not that they lack "impact" but they lack specificity: what does it mean that you "worked on" something? Impact can be a lens that helps to make wishy washy generalities more concrete

But if you just say "worked on this and made it better by 50%" then you're still doing the wishy washy generality thing, now with a number that doesn't mean anything.

Obviously there's nuance there depending on whether the thing is something with obvious and easily measured quantitative metrics or not

so much of resume writing is balancing "does this make me look good" against "does this make me sound like a newbie with an overinflated ego" and the break over point is subjective

[raw vale]

What do you guys feel about codeacademy as a learning resource?

And is pro worth it?

[fringe sphinx]

What's pro? Link?

[raw vale]

https://www.codecademy.com/pricing

[regal axle]

It isn't horrible. But it isn't the best either. I wouldn't spend money on them. I have never done nor seen any of their pro stuff (like their quizes). But I doubt they are worth it. Quizes (as an example) are really really hard to do right for programming. Even more so in this context
Anyways; use them as a free resource. But not your only resource. Work your way up to being able to learn from the docs themself. Or books. And only videos when the docs are just not that good

None of this is worth that kinda money.

[raw vale]

What do you think is the best learning resource?

[vapid jay]

This is horrible. I've used it before and it's just way way too simplistic.

[regal axle]

There is no singular "best" resource. And it is based on how you want to learn. But do note, that I teach myself everything; for free. There are more than enough resources out there to not have to spend a penny. (not to say that spending money is bad or wrong)

Some things I did when starting out: Watch a video that went over the abstract concepts. Then tried to read up on the stuff I needed to do that thing, and then do it. Videos have a ton of flaws. But they are really attractive early on.
The most important thing, is learning by doing. Do as many exercises as you can. The second most important thing, is consistency. Just put in the hours and you will learn and grow. Part of that, is knowing that it will take you a decent amount of time to learn what you need. This isn't a sprint, but a marathon. It does take time, and that is ok

[raw vale]

I see thanks a lot for the advice!

[gentle kite]

I prefer a more practical approach to learning. My biggest challenge with learning a new language is the lack of free course-quality learning material. I've tried to deal with that problem in a (free) course I'm working on (I also made the one for Hack The Box Academy, if that sounds familiar) but I want to be sure with the moderation team that it's OK for me to share the links here, before I do.
I don't earn anything from it so I'm hoping it'll be OK.

[radiant vortex]

👀

[fringe sphinx]

That's a question for the mod team, I see you opened a question already so we'll answer there, but give us some time, since everyone is in diff time zones.

[astral onyx]

i have heard a lot of rumor saying that ai will replace programmer's jobs, idk if this true

[peak halo]

Not really.

[astral onyx]

that's good to hear

[fringe sphinx]

Consider your sources / seek high quality sources.

[safe coral]

I know… I showed it to a hiring manager and he instantly said this resume claims way too much and it over delivers. I wouldn’t hire if I saw this resume he said

@turbid bobcat

[humble vine]

Hola lads, does data engineering include a lot of programming (python)?

[safe coral]

Maybe that’s why I don’t get call backs? I applied 400 jobs last two weeks or so and got 3 call backs. 2 turned out to be fake and one decided not to move to interview @turbid bobcat

[true harness]

one person's opinion is not necessarily the industry's opinion

[safe coral]

Yeah

[harsh river]

some people apply way more and get the same number of call backs

[safe coral]

Well mine were fake call backs 😭

[fringe sphinx]

The first question is: are they right? Did you make statements you can't substantiate?

If you can backup and fully explain, that's one thing. But, their instinct is you won't be able to.

[true harness]

but they do make a "no hire / advance" decision based on resume alone

i don't understand your point. this person looked at the resume and said they wouldn't hire. isn't that exactly what happens for a real resume review?

not if you don't make it past a simple resume screen

i mean, they gave a reason. according to jigglypuff, they said, "this resume claims way too much and it over delivers"

it doesn't really, and now you're changing what you said originally. you said it was suspect that they would make a decision based on resume alone, but it isn't. an initial resume screen will filter out candidates; not everyone gets interviewed

[summer roost]

There's definitely more to it than that. If 100% of applicants appear to be unqualified based on a resume review, I'm not wasting time interviewing any of them.

[safe coral]

Yeah why do you think it’s outlandish?

[true harness]

shouldn't you be asking the person that actually said that to you

[fringe sphinx]

In principal, I agree. In practice, I think all screeners apply different sieves. I look for demonstrated coding experience and don't really pay attention to much else, but that's just me.

[summer roost]

In general, yes, it's possible for a resume to set off my "bullshit alarms" and lead to the person not getting interviewed

[vital wyvern]

has anyone pointed out that your resume is literally indecipherable to a recruiter?

Err-- speaking to Jiggly here. I forgot how to Discord for a moment.

Ehhhh-- it's very verbose. I think a common addage is you get 10-15 seconds to capture a recruiter's attention. I'm not sure you're managing time effectively with that word density.

[safe coral]

Oh so it’s hard to read?

[vital wyvern]

I mean, presumably most of us have some level of CS background and syntactic familiarity with Data Science concepts. I also have an abundnace of free time and the ability to go "wait wtf did that mean." My only real crux here is that it seems too dense.

That said, I do agree-- if you've made changes at all, send those out, see what works and what doesn't.

[safe coral]

Lol

[vital wyvern]

Yeah I've gotten whiplash between reviewing EU/AUS resumes at work versus American resumes.

[safe coral]

So we need shorter bullets?

[vital wyvern]

Mmm, I think maybe be a little more selective about when you are and are not as verbose.

If you have a high impact bullet, it's fine for it to be long. But if every bullet is long, it's likely that you're losing the forest for the trees a bit.

[fringe sphinx]

Your takeaway, I think, should be that reasonable people disagree. There's no singular answer.

[vital wyvern]

That's also fair. Resumes are about continual development and experimentation.

Also you need to start networking. I got my current job not because of how I wrote my resume, but by doing work that attracted attention, interacting with influential people, and ultimately levying professional relationships that led to my employment.

[safe coral]

• Promoted from Front Desk Associate to Data Scientist in May 2019 while concurrently pursuing a college degree.
• Conducted in-depth analysis of guest booking trends and developed an ARIMA model for room demand.
• Evaluated guest satisfaction surveys using regression models with R and Python, creating actionable insights that improved online reviews.
• Centralized guest data from multiple sources such by designing a PostgreSQL database contributing to an increase in guest satisfaction and freeing up 10+ hours of staff time weekly.
• Built an RNNs model to optimize group pricing strategies by analyzing historical group booking data and seasonality trends.
• Developed dynamic dashboards using Tableau and Python’s Dash and Plotly libraries to visualize key performance indicators.

There you go

[vital wyvern]

I'm not sure I think 'Front Desk Associate to Data Scientist' promotion is something I'd throw in the bullets personally. Is it to show growth?

[safe coral]

They told me to put it there

because someone asked me how I could work as a data scientist during school

and put it in the resume

[vital wyvern]

Yeah that's fine, I'm losing the point of the promotion aspect though. I don't think it really matters that much, but again, opinions.

[safe coral]

okay I will remove it

[vital wyvern]

I feel like I'm coming in the tail end of a multi-day conversation and missing the context that may have motivated some of these changes.

Not sure it's conducive for me to provide any advice in hindsight if you've already gotten a fair bit from the room.

Meanwhile I'm staring at the about me on my blog trying to figure out how to not sound like a douche.

[safe coral]

Heres the changes

its less verbose now

[vital wyvern]

You can still include impacts/results in your bullets for what it's worth-- maybe just do so in a way that's more up front. And definitely try both versions of your resume at different locations.

Keep track of which resumes you submit where.
Ensure you're following up after submission.
Solicit feedback from recruiters where you can.

Ah I didn't see that, yeah-- I concur with all of that advice.

[safe coral]

Honestly more than half of those applications were not through easy apply

[vital wyvern]

Getting a job at a reputable organization has me getting calls from recruiters left and right now. It's... incredibly annoying. I know it's frustrating now but it won't be that way forever.

[safe coral]

Im not getting any calls or anything

[vital wyvern]

I think I got pretty lucky with my career. I'm doing well, but it isn't for lack of luck and effort. A random Discord DM ultimately lead to me getting a very well paying job at a highly regarded workplace. Networking goes much harder than just spam applying and resume tuning.

[safe coral]

worst of all, I just started a job in a company and it turned out to be a marketing company @vital wyvern I dont know anything about marketing

[vital wyvern]

Are you working in Data Science? Does it matter if it's marketing?

[safe coral]

The problem is I dont know anything

[vital wyvern]

Dude same. Literally always. Take the challenge and run with it.

[safe coral]

The problem is they dont want to train me

On my third day of the work, the director told me Im not performing well

and told me that I should be producing reports already on how we can create effective ads

[vital wyvern]

I cannot possibly comment on that without the full context of the situation. If they hired you for a skillset and are now evaluating you against a different skillset, that's problematic, but not insurmountable.

[safe coral]

I told him I have no clue on how to do SEO stuff and Im self learning. He said learning was for school and that I shouldnt be thinking like a data scientist but more like a marketer

[vital wyvern]

I learn something new every day. I saved two businesses from full encryption yesterday purely by 'fucking around and finding out'. Your boss is a jackass if you think he truly believes that.

[safe coral]

I cant use Python or R or Tableau. No programming

[vital wyvern]

This doesn't sound like a Data Science job if you're not actually sciencing data.

[safe coral]

and he wants me to run a pay to click ad campaing on Facebook

[kindred geyser]

I am currently wrapping up my ASTE degree at Pulaski tech in North Little Rock AR (Associates of Technology and Engineering) basically an associates in comp science if you want to call it that. so fare excluding all of my basic classes/ gen ed. I've taken 3 computer science classes (specializing in C++) and a web design the rest have just been gen ed such as calc 1-2, chem, physics, trig, etc.

*My question is: I'm trying to decide if i want to pursue my bachelors degree in computer science or computer engineering. or major in one and minor in the other, or stretch it out a little longer and do a double major. ** * time frame is of no priority here so if an extra year is tacked on it does not matter to me.

I have a Strong desire to learn and go deeper into embedded systems, I like building, tinkering, making, etc. but i also want to take the comp science focused classes such as: Operating Systems, software engineering, analysis of algorithms, AI, etc. etc.

So what would be the best move or option? Thank you in advance for your constructive critique and suggestions.

[vital wyvern]

Err-- was this advertised as a marketing job? Why did you apply to it if it doesn't really hit your career interests?

[safe coral]

They looked at my resume and told me I was a great match

[vital wyvern]

That's not the question.

[safe coral]

I told them I dont know marketing and they told me that this was more of an analytics job

so I took it of course thinking I would be coding and stuff

[vital wyvern]

Have you had that conversation with your director? Tactfully of course, but if not, you're just going to end up quitting and hating the experience anyway.

[fast fossil]

well, after all
luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity

[summer roost]

computer engineering would be the degree that leads more towards embedded systems, and computer science would be the degree that leads more towards algorithms, software engineering, and AI. There aren't many people who get a job that spans both of those areas. It's probably in your best interest, career-wise, to pick one and commit to it, though diversifying by also taking courses (or a minor) in another area isn't a bad idea. When it comes time to get a job, though, you're likely gonna wind up picking one or the other, and the one you didn't pick will at best be useful background knowledge above and beyond what the job requires

[true harness]

can't win if you aren't prepared by buying the ticket 😛

[safe coral]

He dragged me into his office and told me he was doubting hiring me @vital wyvern

and I told him I know nothing about marketing lol

I didnt sign a contract

You dont sign a contract for jobs unless they are contract jobs

[vital wyvern]

Look brotherman, I'm going to level with you. You're like... 30something right? If I hired you tomorrow, with your qualifications, at my workcenter, I would expect you to not only be able to do the job on your resume (which your education supports) but also to be self sufficient and evaluate your needs against my team's to see if you're a good fit. I would expect you to tell me if it's not working for you, so I can either get you somewhere you belong in the company, or even outside of the company.

At some point you need to take responsibility for the decisions you're making and the positions you're putting yourself in-- if something isn't working, that's something you need to figure out. We can give you all the advice in the world, but ultimately these are decisions that you are responsible for. If you're in a shitty work environment and in a position where you can leave, then leave.

You have more degrees than the average human being to the point where it looks like you're just collecting them without any real regard to actually gathering industry experience. There is a level of mental resilience and maturity that you need to be showing in how you're going about these interactions. If you're being met with negative interactions a lot, it's likely because you haven't developed as a professional enough to be truly self sufficient/confident. Which is fine, it takes time. I'm not advocating for not receiving training or anything, but I'm advocating for reading job advertisements critically, and making level headed decisions.

[true harness]

well, you do sign a contract saying that you are at-will, and your pay will be blah, blah

[summer roost]

you do sign some stuff, but employment contracts aren't really a thing in the US

[safe coral]

I mean my question is would you get mad at someone who doesnt perform well on their 3rd day considering they have no clue what they are doing and trying to learn @vital wyvern

[vital wyvern]

No because I'm not a fuckhead. But that's neither here nor there.

You're in that situation, my response to this doesn't matter-- what matters is how you handle that criticism and how you evaluate whether or not its worth your time to stay there.

[summer roost]

I mean, I probably wouldn't have hired them

[safe coral]

Since I didnt know what to do, I started a Coursera course to learn about the stuff and got a certificate

[fast fossil]

sounds like the stuff you do sign is the employment contract then

[safe coral]

he told me to shred it because its useless @summer roost

[vital wyvern]

I mean... yeah. That tracks. Coursera is not a professional qualification.

[safe coral]

and that I should have learnt this stuff at school not there at work

[true harness]

there is a contract, but usually nothing like "you must work here for 1 year ..."

[fringe sphinx]

Eh, that's not how US works. An employment agreement is just legal framework but its nature is different than in Europe

[vital wyvern]

Lamenting about this isn't going to get you anywhere. I already gave you effective advice regarding this situation. It's up to you on whether or not you want to regard it.

[summer roost]

It's pretty common to not have to sign anything similar to an employment contract. You'll get an offer letter saying how much they're willing to pay you and what your benefits will be, you keep a copy of that (and don't need to sign it or return it to them)

[safe coral]

These were the qualifications for the job

[summer roost]

the stuff you sign is more like tax forms submitted to the government.

[safe coral]

@vital wyvern

[fast fossil]

that still sounds like a contract

[harsh river]

||#career-advice message||
bit ot

[vital wyvern]

This reads like... nothing you were expecting. Why in the world did you apply to this role?

[safe coral]

They contacted me

[summer roost]

either the employer or the employee can end the employment relationship at any time for (almost) any reason

[vital wyvern]

... I get a lot of emails and phone calls from recruiters. I say no a lot, conveniently.

[safe coral]

through linkedin and I went to interview

[summer roost]

in what sense?

[safe coral]

I mean through indeed***

[summer roost]

that's the offer letter

[true harness]

and you get a pamphlet-type thing with benefits and such

[vital wyvern]

So many pamphlet-type things.

[safe coral]

I saw this part and got in

[fringe sphinx]

What does your contract do for you?

[vital wyvern]

Brother none of that is... anything to do with Data Science. That is front end. They're looking for someone with front end/UX experience.

[balmy mural]

I feel like the same conversation as last time you brought this up is just being rehashed at this point. I don't think the advice you're going to get is going to significantly change. You're currently in a not so great situation. Either you make the best of it as a learning experience, or you get out.

[crisp stream]

that sounds like generic stuff

[summer roost]

right, not typically signed. You do save a copy of it, but you signal your agreement to accept the offer verbally, and then, like, show up to work

[safe coral]

Im gonna go to HR tho and complain

[vital wyvern]

[crisp stream]

the core of the job seems like marketing

[safe coral]

because of the harressment on my third day

[crisp stream]

which, if you don't want or aren't qualified to work in, is a very bad idea

[harsh river]

that's crazy when you put it like that

[vital wyvern]

I'm unsure if "You are not doing well here, the classes you are taking are ineffective," is workplace harassment.

[summer roost]

there's not much point of that when either party can terminate the job at any time

[fast fossil]

not signing stuff ig is fine, as long as the letter is actually legally binding
and there is no way it is not legally binding as soon as you actually start working there, if you start working at a company based on an offer letter, that's just gotta mean that you have accepted it (and that the company has accepted compensating as per said letter)
like, there's no way that offer letter doesn't just become a legal document at some point during this process, it has to

[safe coral]

The problem is during the interview they told me I was gonna do data analytics @vital wyvern and I told them my concerns

that I didnt know marketing and they were like oh its fine we need a numbers person and you will be fine and bla bla

[harsh river]

and you just believed them?

[summer roost]

what does "a legal document" mean to you? It's not a contract, but it could be submitted as evidence in cour proceedings - but so could any document

[fringe sphinx]

But what types of responsibilities does it outline?

[vital wyvern]

That's still not harassment. That's just a shitty job experience. You can have that discussion with HR.

[true harness]

there's nothing to bind, though. if you can be fired at any time for (basically) any reason, there's no point

[safe coral]

thats what I meant @vital wyvern sorry

If you are hiring me for a positon and you know I have no marketing experience, is it wrong of me to expect me some sort of traning

[vital wyvern]

Okay well words matter here because if you walk into HR screaming harassment and rip a "Well they were mean to me because they were right," that conversation isn't going to go the way you want it to.

[fast fossil]

It is a contract in the sense that you get the pay and benefits outlined in this document, not meeting those requirements is a breach of contract, though apparently the reprecussions of said breach are not outlined there either

[vital wyvern]

Oh dude I got zero training in DA for my first job in Finance-- pretty sure that's just the norm.

[safe coral]

at least thats not that hard

[fringe sphinx]

The only training I ever got was 'management/leadership' training... nothing technical. Oh, maybe a tech writing class.

Tech writing was totally worth it

[safe coral]

I mean this? On Monday, they want me to run a Facebook ad campaign

[true harness]

i got harassment training. and cybersecurity training

[vital wyvern]

I was doing financial risk analysis for a fortune 50 company on a trillion dollar portfolio for my internship. I'm not sure I'd say it wasn't... hard.

[verbal vapor]

Really

[safe coral]

Ive been there 5 days and this? I cant run a facebook ad campaign

[fringe sphinx]

Jiggly, at this point you're just venting. It sounds like a bad hire on both sides, that's it.

[summer roost]

it's not a breach of contract, because there is no contract. It's wage theft, which is failing to pay the wages that the employee is entitled to

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, that type of stuff is in the employment agreement (and perhaps some in the signed offer letter)

[safe coral]

okay so Im not a bad employee right? I dont want to lose my confidence thats it @fringe sphinx

[true harness]

in some respects, you are. but it's not necessarily entirely your fault

[vital wyvern]

Err... maybe a blow to your confidence will be the wakeup call that you need to evaluate job requirements against your personal skillset and be more selective about what you do and do not know.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, it's usually a combination of: offer letter, employment agreement, and employee handbook (policies). The agreement is fairly sparse, just about protecting the company

[safe coral]

I mean I told them that was not my skillset anyway @vital wyvern During the interview

[fringe sphinx]

You're a bad marketeer perhaps 🙂

[safe coral]

so I shouldnt blame myself anyway lol I knew it wasnt my skillset and they did as well hahaha

[fringe sphinx]

Yup, but there's no term or job responsibilities (tasks, what you'll do, etch outlined.

[vital wyvern]

You're still a responsible party, quit trying to shift the blame.

[safe coral]

They told me I was the first person to show up 3 days in a row to the position ahahaha

[vital wyvern]

Accept some part of responsibility in the situation and work to fix it. It is that simple. This entire conversation culminates to that key sentence.

[fast fossil]

but it is a contract, it has all the elements of a contract

Whether you name a document a Letter of Agreement (LOA), or a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), or a Letter of Intent (LOI), or any other name, if it contains all the referenced elements, then it’s a contract.
https://www.utsa.edu/bco/resources/contract-law-101.html

[summer roost]

you can be bad employee for one roll and not for others

[safe coral]

at least I managed to stay more than other ones.

5 days whereas the longest hiree stayed 3 days

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, so in Jiggly's case, that doc wouldn't have help, right?

[summer roost]

OK, if you want to call it a contract despite the fact that it's not signed and there are no penalties on the employee for failing to uphold it, fine. The point is, in the US we don't get much more than "we will pay you $X every 2 weeks to work for us", which looks radically different from an employment contract in the EU

[summer roost]

this tends to be a culture shock on both sides of the Atlantic. People in the EU are surprised that the US doesn't have employment contracts, and people in the US don't understand why the EU does

[fringe sphinx]

https://youtu.be/Pn0WdJx-Wkw?feature=shared

[true harness]

in the US, the protection generally comes in the form of "you can leave whenever you want" and other assorted laws about why the employer can fire you

if you want to go to a different job, you aren't locked in for another year, or something

[fast fossil]

it doesn't have to be signed per se to be closed and it doesn't have to list penalties for failure of compliance, that's just what is usually done
"we will pay you $X every 2 weeks to work for us" can very well be a contract, it's definitely a rather plain one compared to what I'm used to seeing, but it is most certainly legally binding if the parties agree upon it

[fringe sphinx]

A contract vs a European employment contract are two different things.

[fast fossil]

I'm not saying they're the same, but it is a contract either way

[summer roost]

sure, fine. It's a contract with virtually no obligations on either side, though.

it's very different than what @turbid bobcat was thinking of

[harsh river]

just different cultures

[fast fossil]

fair enough, I think in this case it'd be fair to say that jigglypuff did "sign" a contract then, however, they're able to exit it anytime, so that's good for them I guess? in the current situation or whatever they were on about

[summer roost]

there may not have been any signature, fwiw.

[fast fossil]

I get it, but as I've said, a signature is not necessary

there is a clear agreement otherwise, in that the company has agreed to pay this for some work and jigglypuff is clearly doing that work (or rather, not exactly, but...)

[safe coral]

I will start my job applications again

Tomorrow is the day 😄 Im using the last edit now which is less verbose

Here it is 😄

[fast fossil]

there seem to be some grammatical issues here

[safe coral]

Yup I will fix that

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, just remember: contract is a broad term and highly ambiguous. And, employment contracts (even in Europe) are exceptionally vague on the specifics of the job. Europe just has way more protections.

[fast fossil]

true, I was not aware of the system in the US, so that took me a bit by surprise, I guess it's just not as relevant in the US if the contract (offer letter specifically in this case) has been agreed upon because even in the case that it is, there are barely any obligations to uphold, so... yeah, whereas what I was thinking (and probably Lisan as well) was something that included some more obligations that you couldn't just easily give up because the contract specified it and such

[glass cloak]

Hello

I been looking for discord server with devs that are willing to help I hope this is not against the rules if it is sorry ( keep editing my messages cus the slow mod is 20 lol )

[fringe sphinx]

We have help channels, but don't allow 'recruiting'. See #❓｜how-to-get-help for help

[glass cloak]

Ok

[pine sleet]

the percent was 15%, then 8%, now 6%, what's going on here?

[safe coral]

They told me to lower it

[pine sleet]

you can't just make up numbers?

[safe coral]

Because it looked unbelievable even though I explained and they were like write conservative numbers just in case

[pine sleet]

did you actually have metrics and measure it? if so, that's the number you should put

[safe coral]

Yeah I had metrics from my manager and stuff

[pine sleet]

ok well i've seen that number fluctuate a lot so it seemed like you were just making it up

[pale marten]

What Is "Graduate software engineer"?

[fringe sphinx]

Link to reference?

[near ocean]

A software engineer that recently graduated uni

[smoky quest]

just put the real number.
no point in making up numbers in either direction

[safe coral]

Okay

So leave it at 10 percent? I will do that for sure. But my mistake was putting annual there

[pine sleet]

isn't the real number 15%?

[safe coral]

10 percent in 5 years was the correct term. I made an error there after talking to my manager

[smoky quest]

• Put the actual number
• Be proud of what you did
• Be ready to speak about how you got that number

[safe coral]

He said not annually it was in 5 years hahahaha

Which makes more sense 😄

[summer roost]

10% annually is 61% over 5 years. That's a heck of a mistake...

[safe coral]

Yup

That may freak out recruiters thinking I oversold myself @summer roost

I wonder if that’s the reason why I never got a call back because that’s such a high number to achieve lol

[brazen island]

Yup, I don't think the contents of the job are legally binding or something in Europe

Although, in my workplace to fire someone you do need to have a formal evaluation which results in a document the manager drafts and the employee signs with action items. Then you're in the red zone. If you don't make good on the action items they can activate someone in HR to start the firing

Very bloated procedure

[safe coral]

Do you think that would be the case? @brazen island

[brazen island]

I mean, I'm somewhere in the middle on this one. I'd expect you to look some of the stuff up but that doesn't absolve the company either. I think they should adequately onboard you

[safe coral]

Lol I got no training on this job I have no onboarding @brazen island

[fringe sphinx]

In US, most companies do that to protect against wrong termination suits. They're not required to, but it provides a paper trail.

[brazen island]

That's on them, but personally I'm always just interested in performing so if they don't give me an onboarding (which happens in more than half of the cases) I just figure it out myself

[safe coral]

It’s hard when you don’t know what you are doing in the position if there’s no onboarding. On my first day I was given stuff I was supposed to work on which I had no idea what they were @brazen island

[brazen island]

Ask questions, try to get in contact with the person doing the role before you, find people in your network that do a similar job and ask questions, ...

Where there is a will, there is a way

[safe coral]

First of all this position couldn’t keep employees it seems. HR said I was the longest one staying which is 5 days @brazen island

I think the problem is they are hiring people with no experience in the field and expecting them to perform well with no training which ends up bad for them

[brazen island]

I'm missing the entire context of this conversation but it seems to me you won't like the job or company, then you should probably move onto something else

[fringe sphinx]

It's a strategy. Hire many people and see which ones work out. I bet they'll find someone eventually.

[safe coral]

Yeah but I think they should hire people that are in the field. It clearly states they need someone with bachelors degree in marketing or business or communication in the job description. I questioned that during interview too @fringe sphinx

Like why me? I don’t have a degree in any of those fields. They responded saying we need someone good with numbers

[fringe sphinx]

Move on. Look forward.

[safe coral]

Yup

I need a good resume tho. I’m getting feedbacks here and there so hopefully my resume will look good enough with no questions asked soon

[fringe sphinx]

That will never happen. You'll always get critiqued, and reasonable people will disagree, so don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

[safe coral]

Okay

Thank you!

[brazen island]

Agreed. You even started getting callbacks with the original. Don't micro optimize the resume, it's fine

[pastel thunder]

Are internahips also verified in background verification?

[smoky quest]

anything on the resume is fair game for questions or verification

[neon dust]

hi guys any idea on how to animate a skibidi toilet???

[smoky quest]

Hi!
This is the wrong channel for this question. See #❓｜how-to-get-help

[neon dust]

ALR MB

[pastel thunder]

They are only asking for releaving certificate to be given during joining.
i didnt even mention references

[smoky quest]

Sure. That doesn't conflict with what I said though

[fringe sphinx]

You really should mention the country. Policies and practices are very different in India from US

[pastel thunder]

Its mnc so it probably does affect, US based

[sly olive]

The future is gonna be all about robots so it would be useful to learn coding and that's why I am here

[pastel thunder]

Also, lets say it is very well known.
Shouldnt they do background verification before joining, and just leave the last employment verification to be done after joining

Cuz other wise it will be too risky for some to join and leave on failing

[smoky quest]

What's the concern here about verifying your internship?

[sly olive]

I am so very sure that you are asking this in the wrong server

[neon dust]

yh mb

i meant to say how to code a skibidi toilet

oops wrong chat

[dense mesa]

<@&831776746206265384> this individual isn't here to contribute meaningful conversation

[neon dust]

i severely appologize

[pine sleet]

all of your messages have been off topic, ensure that your next questions are sincere and on topic

[neon dust]

alr

[fringe sphinx]

Mnc's use local hiring practices in each country. Leaving notices aren't a thing in the Us

[fringe sphinx]

There's an assumption that you didn't lie on your resume, some companies verify employment after an offer and some before.

[pastel thunder]

Didnt really lie but some intership are from very small companies where the certificate that i got was probably the only thing they maintained

[smoky quest]

Don't worry too much about it. You aren't their first intern/hire and won't be their last. It's unlikely your case is so special they wouldn't know about it or what to do

[pastel thunder]

I got this from connection and unsure if its only me to whom they gave certificate like this

[brave matrix]

should I mention the Python libraries ik for my Data Engineer resume? for example: pandas, polars, duckdb, pyspark, airflow, etc.?
I'm of the idea that a developer should be able to learn these things on the go so it dosent matter, but I dont want the recruiters to eliminate my resume cuz its missing the keyword...

[carmine inlet]

if you don't have industry experience then it looks rather impressive so far. However, I somehow don't think Cython is used much in the industry so I probably wouldn't put it there. It makes you look like you have used it a lot and they'll probably have quite a lot of questions about it. Rust and Go are a lot more interesting

[brave matrix]

I do have experience, 1 year full time, and 1.5 as freelancer

you are right about Cython in that its not aprecciated/used much. I put it there just to standout as most juniors probably havent used it yet

[carmine inlet]

most juniors probably haven't used Rust, Go and Python, most likely it'll be 1-2 of these (Python and Go more likely), Java perhaps too. Adding Cython just makes it look like bragging. E.g. would you be able to write Cython if asked during an interview?