career-advice

[stiff basalt]

50k is a lot of money 😂 but I see where your comming from I'll do more research

[regal axle]

Yes. I stated that a little earlier. But yea, it is hard to seem not desperate, when I am a little desperate. And it isn't even the money aspect. I have tons of float.

[stiff basalt]

Fake it till you make it

[true harness]

think of it like an investment. some debt now can be offset by higher future wages

[regal axle]

If you are only needing 2 years, you can likely get away with 20-30k. And at that point, yea, it really isn't a lot of money. The degree will pay for itself. And remember, you do have time to pay off any debts. It isn't like you need to come up with the money within a year

[stiff basalt]

Understood thank you for your advice

[stiff basalt]

True I guess my thinking was illogical debt is paid off in time

[regal axle]

I was able to take an unsubsidized loan + some scholarship money and some other little things. All together, I ended up being about 7k in debt. But, tech internships are a thing. My internship made me about 15k (after tax + living expenses [and I moved for the internship]). So, I was able to pay off my debt right away. This is very personalized. But point being, is that there are levels to it and that you can also work while getting a degree, to help pay for food and the likes.
That isn't always easy nor guaranteed. Regardless, it is just things to consider, when making a decision.

And to be clear, this isn't my advice to all degrees. CS (related) just happens to be one of those degrees that is very much worth it.

[gritty rivet]

Yes... If you're making a US SWE salary and keeping your expenses under control you could easily pay off $50k in 2-4 years. Your salary will continue to grow with experience

[stiff basalt]

i get what your saying but as you said its posible although not possible for alll\

[stiff basalt]

true then im going to full pursue a batchlors in cs

[gritty rivet]

It's true. You have to be committed to working hard and doing well. Nothing is risk free or guaranteed

[stiff basalt]

true

[hearty island]

anyone heard of this place: https://www.customersbank.com/

they sent me an interview req

[gritty rivet]

Will DM, though I probably won't be much use

[hearty island]

Thanks Dow!

[hidden nymph]

hi

where can i discuss my problems

[smoky quest]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[light hull]

Hello everyone looking for a resume review, some info redacted but thanks in advance 🙂

[hearty island]

i'd like more numbers. demonstrated skills.

what are your rates of reponses?

[light hull]

Like metrics?

(I completed x using y and it resulted in z)

[hearty island]

yessir 🫡

[light hull]

20-30%

[hearty island]

damn, that's quite good. i'm a new grad so i had it significantly harder. hang on showing a sankey diagram rn.

[light hull]

The only reason I haven't added more metrics is because sometimes it's hard to put a gauge/measurement on some of the things i've done. I could just make it up... But eh

[hearty island]

i'd guestimate. recruiters aren't gonna call you out. hiring managers will, so that's why you have stories prepped.

[light hull]

You interview at anywhere crazy (FAANG, big tech etc)?

[hearty island]

all the way from the public sector to the private sector in multiple industries. mostly focused on finance later on tho.

[light hull]

What did you major in?

[hearty island]

business analytics.

[light hull]

What's your job title?

[hearty island]

assoc analyst biz engineering

think of it like consulting

[light hull]

I guess with analytics type roles numbers matter a lot more, haven't really had an issue so far with having less metrics

[hearty island]

i'm glad it's working for you tho

[hearty island]

no one deserves to go through what i did.

[light hull]

4000 is crazy man

[hearty island]

i did 6 internships. came from a non-target school.

[light hull]

Wtf??? That's really crazy, when were you trying to apply in the job market?

[hearty island]

july of 2023 -> july of 2024

[light hull]

Well you also had 30 interviews, were you just not interviewing well?

[hearty island]

yep. you got it. i had severe anxiety issues. this server helped.

[hearty island]

but also it's an extremely competitive process with ton of qualified people.

[light hull]

I'm assuming you killed the technical interview but suffered on the behavioral then..

[hearty island]

behavioral used to fuck with me. now i understand them.

[light hull]

If you applied to 4000 different places you've got to have picked up some things from doing that, I haven't every mass-applied before

Where did you mainly apply at and did you try and target your resume per-job?

[hearty island]

look. it's a learning process. i'd write tailored resumes too.

[hearty island]

a ton of financial analyst roles mostly. i love finance.

[light hull]

I'm not going to a 'target' school either, but my school is known for engineering so idk

[hearty island]

ah my school is as far from target as it gets. you ever heard of Hofstra U?

[light hull]

No I don't think so, what state?

[hearty island]

NY?

[light hull]

Ah, I'm going to Auburn in AL

[hearty island]

nice acceptance rate, 44%. hofstra's is a 69%.

[light hull]

Yeah it's a great school

I actually got accepted into MIT but I couldn't afford the tuition at the time ☹️

[hearty island]

honestly man, college is what you make of it. aw that sucks.

[light hull]

Yeah that's true, once you get working in the field, if you weren't at a target school it doesn't matter as much

[hearty island]

i have recruiters hitting me up now simply bc of internships

[light hull]

Honestly that's the way to go, through a recruiter is almost a 99% of the time easier from what I hear from my friends

[hearty island]

i had to drop from 3 interviews recently

[light hull]

Drop?

[hearty island]

bc i accepted an offer, yea.

[light hull]

Honestly you should've kept interviewing, see if you can get a better offer or some offers to negotiate your current

[hearty island]

nah this was a dream company i bumped them up to 80K after some gentle nudging

[light hull]

Is that base w/o benefits and bonus?

[hearty island]

ye

[light hull]

My current is 86K but no benefits

I have a side-proj that's paying around 3k/mo tho

[hearty island]

damn no benefits? you need that shit, bro.

[light hull]

Yeah I know, but i'm also only 18 so I'm still on my parents for a lot of health stuff etc, unfortunately not car insurance tho

[hearty island]

i'm 23 💀

getting grey hairs already fr, (it's a finance thing)

[light hull]

Ah nice, yeah I'm about to be a 'freshman' @ Auburn but I'll be a years worth of work via dual enrollment already into my degree

[hearty island]

i see.

[light hull]

Hopefully you have a patagonia vest and an excel mug

[hearty island]

not how i'll dress at the firm i'll work at

[light hull]

full suit?

[hearty island]

remote 😜 and the office is 5 minutes from home

[light hull]

Ah haha, you could walk to work

[hearty island]

but in office, it's mostly suit

[light hull]

All my jobs are remote as well and sometimes I wish I had somewhere to go in-person

[hearty island]

same here

[light hull]

Is your job hybrid, what allows you to go in office?

[hearty island]

we're hybrid if we wanna be

[light hull]

I say that I would like having a hybrid/job that allows me to partially work in person when I want but I have a feeling that's going to change the minute I start classes in-person again

[hearty island]

i like in person work

[light hull]

I have a feeling I would too, I sometimes just can't focus at home

[inner tartan]

Maybe hearing this will be useful to someone, but something I have spotted when job hunting, I had one recruiter tell me that my CV isn't good enough to warrant the salary I was asking for, and that the best he could get me would likely be £45k.

I then went onto another call with another recruiter, who said given my job history he can get me £120k.

I just heard from a friend that another recruiter did the same to him, telling him he wasn't worth the salary expectations he has.

So this is my friendly PSA, some recruiters will act like they are assessing your technical ability or CV and tell you that you are worth less than you actually are, in order to get you to apply for the jobs that they have available

[twilit portal]

That's very scummy of them

[near ocean]

Did you get the 120k job? Theres a number of recruiting and staffing companies in the UK that advertise super high pay, it doesnt necessarily reflect what youre actually gonna get paid

45k is much closer to the average software dev salary

[inner tartan]

No, but I did get almost double the £45k the recruiter claimed was the maximum I was worth.

[near ocean]

What industry is this in

[inner tartan]

Python/Django, backend engineer, team lead

[near ocean]

What industry though, django in big bank pays much more than django elsewhere

[inner tartan]

Ah, it's a small startup in B2B food and beverage supply

But yea, I mostly posted it just to point out that, while recruiters are super useful in finding work, it's important to understand that their goal is to get you into a job that they have on the table. If the jobs they have access to are low paying, they will talk you down. If they are high paying, they will talk you up. Don't trust anything a recruiter says regarding your skills or job history, as they are financially incentivized to advise you incorrectly.

[near birch]

Hey, can anyone tell that b/w
Django web development & Spring boot boot development which one's more in demand as of 2024?

[covert ridge]

Hi, who know, some crypto, p2p, or web3 servs?

[fringe sphinx]

Just ask your question, but not here: in #python-discussion

[covert ridge]

Okey, where i can ask this question?

Community-meta? Or something else?

[fringe sphinx]

In #python-discussion

[covert ridge]

Thank

[buoyant seal]

Good question can be which one u enjoy more for multiple years of usage 😅
And another good question can be... which one is more demand in specifics to your local hiring market. U should check this tech pressence in country local hiring web site

It was discovered before that for some countries some of those things can be completely not existing, while for other countries they are more or less equal in demand

[upper knoll]

I am looking for developer can build a RESTful API for a simple blogging platform

[hearty island]

https://tenor.com/view/we-dont-do-that-here-black-panther-tchalla-bruce-gif-16558003

[near birch]

I've trying to filter that out b/w these two from past two days and all i see
Some answered questions in which some suggests Spring boot devs makes $1,59,000 on annual basis and some other sites varies by a lot
So, may i know about the global market hiring demand over this or in other countries

[gritty rivet]

Yes, you can look at job listings in other countries. But your chance of getting hired internationally without lots of experience and connections is extremely low

[whole geyser]

why i getcannot import name 'solve_forward' from 'torch_sparse_solve_cpp' (unknown location) when i do
from torch_sparse_solve_cpp import solve_forward

[gritty rivet]

That's not a career question so you're in the wrong place. #❓｜how-to-get-help

[whole geyser]

oh mb

sr

[buoyant seal]

as far as i am aware both options are more or less equal in popularity and jobs amount at world wide scale
python and java take almost same places.

• Difference only in Python+Django being more friendly for beginners, and working on dynamic typed system. Easier unit testing, and taping to rich ecosystem of python. It can scale in code size moderately well among not very skilled audience, due to enforcing its own opinionated stuff. Not very friendly to custom code usually. Python is harder to master at some point to expert level later.
• And Java having more intriciate learning curve, working on static typing safety, having more challenging unit testing, but significantly better scaling in terms of custom code size. Initial harder learning curve can lead to more enjoyment and easier usage later, as custom code piling together for any complexity is easier to write after that. We can mention though that harder unit testing is significant disadvantage potentially. Great code is well unit tested, that is very important for backend development that has leaky abstarction of SQL through the code, that affects code quality a lot. Also Java devs can be overengineering architecture just because they can, that can lead to negative effects too.

Some people like static typing more, some people find dynamic typing more to their liking. Best choosing here what is more fitting your... style of programming, tastes.
We can say though that Java and Python are different as Day and Night.

dowcet — Today at 1:40 PM
Yes, you can look at job listings in other countries. But your chance of getting hired internationally without lots of experience and connections is extremely low

and yeah what dowset said. u can forget about international hiring until u reached middle level dev qualitifications. World wide international full time jobs aren't for beginners.

[near birch]

Yes and about the job findings over global market internationally i'm planning to stick with the stuff that would be fruitful up in the future and hence i asked which would be major on demand as will be more likely even for next couple of years i assumed it to be Dynamic typed system (Python) in this case which would utilise Selenium in making Web applications more automated?

[buoyant seal]

Selenium is cursed tool for web scraping, one of the most foul type of jobs in the market, that preferably good to stay away for good. It is ungrateful, long time executing, easy to break, heavy in resources and often used for gray-legal means.
The only legal means for Senelium usage if when it is used for end-to-end testing, and when u scrap web side of a owner that gave explicit permission in order to build some new stuff on the ashes of a previous stuff

[buoyant seal]

Dynamic typed system (Python) and Static Typing (Java) have so much great market share
That even if they start dying today, they will be dying many many many dozens of year (lets say 50 years). After all someone will be needing to maintain all the... gazillion amount of already written services.
Java is predicted one day to become next COBOL in outsuriving everything a bit.
U can be sure they both will be within your future time range enough to make career out of them

both languages are pretty much equally supported in terms of backend development, ecosystem at the level of cloud/monitoring/iac tools as far as i know

[near birch]

TG i mentioned the usage of Selenium here atleast i learnt that it should be opted as a framework used by me any time now
Tho i was thrilled to know this that it is a Standalone for getting hired😅

[buoyant seal]

Java has certain advantages for easier building long term maintained software. And also useful not only for backend+data engineering, but also for mobile(Android) and desktop 😉 U can build minecraft mods with Java, which is great source for practice and pet projects.
All those qualities can be helpful for more long term job security.

Python is useful on another hand for backend+data enginereing, scripting+devops, data science and machine learning. May be it is enough for you, but i personally find myself very alien to any data science/machine learning stuff despite working with it in university.

[near birch]

Sir, would you please add me to the friends list if i hit a roadblock up in ear future about Web dev on Java/Python?

I'm aspired to become an SDE by learnjng web dev skill set alongside i did Java DSA & OOPS already

[buoyant seal]

no. communicate in public 😉 that is more productive. u can feel free to give a ping me in a public chat if the question is somewhat relevant to me and continues our previous discussion.
I communicate in public in order to speak with many people, and other people contributing by stepping in and adding smth on top or correcting me (even if i will not always agree with their suggestions), still it is all helpful for me to get something back from those communications. Speaking with you 1 to 1 is more a chore/job and i will not gain anything.
I speak 1 to 1 only with my friends/acquitances which i know for a long time

[near birch]

But nowadays isn't python being adopted as a primary dynamic language for SDE ?

[gritty rivet]

Not really. Nobody is writing web apps in pure Python. Almost nobody is writing desktop apps in Python. It's an important language, but there's no such thing as a "primary" language for the entire field of software engineering and never will be

[buoyant seal]

as dowset, nobody writes web frontend heavy stuff in python. almost nobody writes desktop. and also python it not meant for mobile too. Embedded usability is present in a limited fashion.

if u wish primary dynamic typed language, that will be highly likely Javascript/Typescript. Usable for everything. For frontend, backend, desktop, mobile, fridge, tesla.
if u wish primary static typed language, that will be probably Java. Usable for backend, for mobile android and desktop

[white relic]

"primary" is a weird classification for a field as broad as all software

[buoyant seal]

fair enough. but we can guess the meaning here as language used for large amount of target platforms. while at the same time highly popular / large in job amount

[modern light]

Our company is offering Fellowship in Artificial intelligence to python geeks, is this the right place to share the info?
Our main focus is to connect new AI Engineers with AI startups to get hands-on experience , global connectivity and enhancement of communication.

[hearty island]

might count as advertising

[raven drift]

I desperately need an internship in the field of Cloud Computing or DevOps
Here is my resume : https://dub.sh/U6rkhk1

Would appreciate any advice or tips
(I have deliberately hidden my name, contact, email, LinkedIn, and name of the college for personal reasons)

[hearty island]

Jake’s Resume

[raven drift]

wym ?

[hearty island]

Here, take a look: https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs

[raven drift]

I dont really have any experience, so except that I think rest format is similar ?
I wanted to keep it super simple

[modern light]

That's why I asked.

[hearty island]

the formatting on your resume is probably what is turning people off.

[raven drift]

I think I need to put the details of the projects in pointers

also I dont really know where to apply for internships, I have only tried LinkedIn and it has 90% fake job postings so yeah

[hearty island]

what search terms? I rarely find fake jobs.

[raven drift]

"DevOps intern" "Cloud Computing" "AWS intern"

[hearty island]

Oh I just use “analyst” and “analytics”

[raven drift]

yeah i tried those too

[hearty island]

Weird. What country are you in? I’m in the US

[raven drift]

Do u have any advices on how to find internships ?

[raven drift]

India

[modern light]

Try angelist now well found

[hearty island]

Yep. There ya go. Internships are rare there.

make interesting projects.

[raven drift]

I see, compared to USA yeah there are very few

[raven drift]

any ideas you have in mind ?

[raven drift]

alright man, thanks

[modern light]

I gonna try if it works
You could apply fellowship at https://voliom.com/index.php/voliom-fellowship

[fringe sphinx]

Agree; fix resume. Then: work your network. Who do you know? Who do they know? Family friends? Etc. talk to people.

Don't just ask for jobs, ask for advice and listen to their experience.

If you're in school, talk to career office.

If you're not in school, consider it.

[hearty island]

no thanks I’m good chief, but ty!

[modern light]

It's for everyone interested 😇

[raven drift]

even for people not in USA ?

[hearty island]

i comment a lot more on linkedin now

ppl love seeing shit like that

[eternal summit]

J.p. morgan swe internships opened already?

[deft herald]

I would think they're almost done tbh

[inner hemlock]

I think I passed my OpenAI interviews 🙂

[twilit portal]

Nice! Congratulations!

[deft herald]

cool. Should be an interesting company to work for

[inner hemlock]

Most definitely!

[hearty island]

Man I have two cringey LinkedIn posts to make
😭😭
One thanking my prior
One announcing my other company
I’m gonna need people to bear with me lmao

[regal axle]

I think the company I like, is going well. I just finished the last step. They seemed very happy. Only thing left would be offer. I think. Maybe.
Assuming I pass all their smell tests.

And then this one other company seemed to like my waffling. Lol. They gave me a take home. I did not spend super long on it. Waffled about it for awhile. The interviewer seemed happy about my responses. Yay.
Way better than that one other company that rejected me. The most BS tech eval I have ever seen.

[inner hemlock]

@regal axle what happened with that tech eval?

[verbal sedge]

Q: What's like the main difference between say being a hobbyist programmer and trying to get a job and work professionally?

[fringe sphinx]

What's the difference between kicking a ball around with friends and being a professional futbol player?

[verbal sedge]

idk you're better at it?

[digital fjord]

A noticable difference is that being a hobbyist you're usually optimizing for your personal productivity, be it with odd language choices, conventions, tooling setups etc. A professional doesn't really get to do that, you work with the subjectively inferior standards of your employer

[fringe sphinx]

That's hardly a satisfying answer. A professional is merely better at it?

(Let's ignore the child prodigies, ofc)

[verbal sedge]

interesting, you aren't a fan of your employers standerds, I assume

[digital fjord]

They work well, but they do lead to me being less productive. This is completely normal and not at all avoidable.

[verbal sedge]

wdym by that like?
To your previous question - I guess they also follow more rules?

But say, to get a job in Python development, or any field in the development industry, what do you need? Is it just experience? Or do you need a degree in comp sci? Do you need to know dynamic programming, o(n), leetcode, things like that?

[regal axle]

Moving this answer to #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare. Anyone who wants to see it, meet me there 😄

[digital fjord]

Even if I were setting the standards, I wouldn't actually end up with my ideal setup, since there'll be developers after me and parallel to me who also need to work on this.

[pine sleet]

it is hard to give a concrete list of what you need

[plush summit]

😂

[pine sleet]

but since so many employers look for a CS degree, the contents taught in an average CS degree could be considered baseline

[verbal sedge]

How would one find such things? I.e are there any resources that would let me know what is on a cs degree. Can you recommend any resources? Also, are like coding conventions really important?

[pine sleet]

look at the classes and curriculum for your state university, it's probably a good bet

[fringe sphinx]

They've trained longer. Been focused on their goals. Probably studied many aspects, not just one. Constantly studying and acquiring knowledge. Practicing. Etc

[pine sleet]

conventions are important, they're part of maintainability and having maintainable code is important

[fringe sphinx]

I'm not equating professional athletes with programming: I'm just pointing how meaningless or unanswerable the original question was

[verbal sedge]

I find the prospect of studying comp sci really fascinating, just to gain more skills. Surely it would be better to just engage in various projects that require those skills so you see how those skills would be used in practical applications, while also understanding what works and what doesn't?

[pine sleet]

it is generally highly encouraged to work on projects while you also study a CS degree, so yes you would be correct

[verbal sedge]

interesting, but like do you need like high school level maths to learn abt like cs and gain enough knowledge to get a job?

Idk what i'm saying but like idk if you need to solve those level of leetcode problems live, without syntax highlighting or anything on the first try? I'd say i'm cooked

[inner hemlock]

It doesn't have to be on the first try, just within the time limit

[pine sleet]

you will need the math covered in a 4 year CS degree, it varies but generally includes a selection from calc1-3, discrete math, linear algebra, stats and diffeq

and probably a handful of others i can't think off the top of my head

[verbal sedge]

bro nahh i barely know like linear algebra even

[pine sleet]

you will learn it in a cs degree

[fringe sphinx]

You're asking half a question, it seems.

[verbal sedge]

ok but say like you don't wanna do a cs degree, but wanna get the skills of someone who has a cs degree, how would one study / what would one study?

[fringe sphinx]

What are you trying to accomplish?

[fringe sphinx]

You want the equivalent of a degree without a degree?

[pine sleet]

this usually never happens in practice, that's why a degree is recommended. 98% of people aren't motivated enough to learn all the things taught in uni by themselves

[fringe sphinx]

Why? What do you want to accomplish?

[verbal sedge]

im not sure, to be fair 😭
Not the equivelant of a degree, like, the skills of a degree, you don't have to get a certificate to gain skills right?

[pine sleet]

but yeah, you're asking how to do a degree without doing the degree

[fringe sphinx]

As a hobbyist, you could learn any single topic of a degree program, certainly.

[verbal sedge]

yeah, so my question is ( i phrased all my questions extremely poorly sorry ) How would one find these topics to study? Just for fun?

[fringe sphinx]

Every university publishes their degree requirements (the list of courses that you must take).

[pine sleet]

find a university, find their courses, find their curriculum, and follow it to the T and you will, in theory, have learned everything in a CS degree without having done it

but of course, people pay big money to go university for far more than just the content...

[verbal sedge]

I see, but they're extremely vague?
For instance this is year 1 I found at a local uni:

Computer Systems
Problem-solving & Critical Thinking
Web Design
Computing Programming
Mathematics
Digital Innovation
Networks & Internet
Operating Systems

[pine sleet]

Hello, we don't allow job recruiting and advertising here. Kindly delete your message

[umbral frigate]

We aren't a recruitment board. Please delete the message.

[pine sleet]

yeah the titles of courses are usually vague. look at the curriculum

[verbal sedge]

that is the curriculum, what?

[pine sleet]

those are the course names, yes?

[true harness]

usually there are more in-depth course descriptions you can find

[pine sleet]

there will be some sort of document containing more specific info on what you will learn

[verbal sedge]

oh i found it thank you

[pine sleet]

it will usually also list what textbook and other resources will be used in the course, you may want to get those as well

[true harness]

why not just go to uni?

[pine sleet]

it will be far easier than trying to self study all of it

there is a saying that a cs degree is the path of least resistance with the most opportunities and compensation

[fringe sphinx]

Show me the link, plz. That's not the page I'm talking about... nm, I'm late.

[hearty island]

yessir

[wary canyon]

Hey, what's a good career path if I want to be a CS Professor some day?

[dry lake]

can someone here help me with python rq

[fringe sphinx]

Cs undergrad then cs PhD.

[fringe sphinx]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[wary canyon]

Fair, in the meantime I'd also like to teach it in high school, so I assume I'd need to get my teaching cert too

[fringe sphinx]

Minor in education

While you can get a teaching job without one, a masters helps

[ebon dove]

Hello everyone I got a quick question

[hearty island]

what's poppin

[ebon dove]

So I’m An intern and leading a team should I put “lead swe intern” on my resume or should I just keep it swe intern

[hearty island]

sure that works. be prepared if a HM calls you out on it tho. be ready to talk about it.

[true harness]

"lead swe intern" just sounds funny. i would just leave it as "swe intern" and describe it in a bullet

[wary canyon]

Why are there even "lead interns", it sounds like the greedy bastards didn't wanna pay you for doing the work of a lower manager

[hearty island]

maybe include like "led a group of x interns to achieve y resulting in z"

[wary canyon]

Yeah that's fair

[hearty island]

cuz my company had intern "leader" programs too

[wary canyon]

yo we got the friend of king gizzard currently typing

[twilit portal]

Ideally you get the valuable experience of guiding and teaching people

[twilit portal]

[opal plume]

please i wanna ask if anyone is into automation here with python. thats why i want to learn python, please what do i need to learn to be able to achieve this

[gritty rivet]

"automation" can mean a lot of things... What do you want to automate?

[wary canyon]

If by automation you mean, achieving something like with shell scripts, I suggest you either learn Bash or, if you want to use Python specifically, learn how to use subprocess.run

[granite shell]

hiii please if someone heree have the chat-gpt or claude premium help me i'll give hime a prompts and he give me the respondqs from the ai plz i'm realy in need i have a presentation next week

[gritty rivet]

If you have career questions you can get answered by some humans... If not you're in the wrong channel

[hearty island]

the resumes i get in my DMs nowadays man. how do i help them?

i either endorse jake's resume or send them WSO

i try my best to help

[iron oasis]

The weird thing is I see colleges always hosting resume building workshops.

[hearty island]

he's going to the best biz college in canada. i hope he'll be ok

[iron oasis]

Maybe he didn't pay attention in his marketing class?

[hearty island]

god knows man

[iron oasis]

Rate my resume?

[hearty island]

sure, post an anonymized version here.

[white dome]

Hello

[hearty island]

hello.

[white dome]

Are there professional programmers in AI

[regal axle]

#python-discussion
And yes, there are. But not a question for here

[white dome]

Thx bro

[hearty island]

you need numerical metrics.

[iron oasis]

For experience or projects or both?

[hearty island]

For both really. I’ll let others weigh in too.

[iron oasis]

Any value in mentioning the total cost of inventory managed as it's around 2 mil value

[hearty island]

Hell yea

[iron oasis]

I just find it cheesy and unrealistic

[hearty island]

Welcome to the eyes of a recruiter. Gotta think like them to beat them at their own game.

[iron oasis]

Appreciate feedback

[deft herald]

To be fair, 2mil is like 4 units of test equipment in my lab. So IMO the value in dollars doesn't mean much. Maybe could you focus on number of items/skus that you had to manage?

[hearty island]

yea this is a good shout

[safe coral]

Bro I’m tired of applying jobs. The only jobs I got interview for not even related to my experience… Admin assistant or cashier jobs

[pine sleet]

if you're not getting many interviews it would be reasonable to suspect an issue with your resume

we do resume reviews in this channel if you would like to post an anonymized version

[hearty island]

i suggested jake's resume, but he's having an issue italicizing the second degree.

[graceful fiber]

Any tips of finding some sort of mentor / active communities for people new to coding? I am entering my sophmore year (business student) fully new to swe (a week) wanting to take on pm in tech and want to have a fundamental understanding of swe to be better suited for a more technical role but want some guidance in the swe department but dont know any swe students/people. My current goals are to spend the rest of summer +more grinding and fully emerging myself in communities

[muted bridge]

I am pursuing a double-major in Applied Stats and CS, and while I plan to work in ML in the future, I’d like my 2025 internship to be in the data science/statistics realm. Question: how should I search for open jobs? It’s not like “statistician” brings up a lot of results when looking for positions. What’s an on-demand position in this category? Will the position set me up nicely when applying for ML opportunities in the future?

[muted bridge]

have you considered minoring in cs

[graceful fiber]

CS is incredibly competitive at my school and course space for Cs classes is difficult but I plan on double degreeing Data Science (under a diff major) and Marketing but I wont have taken significant cs classes until this upcoming year but im looking to build it up in the next two months before school starts back up

Although I am a second year I have junior standing so I am able to go for both sophmore discovery programs (most noteable goal is microsoft explore) where there have more slim cs expectations and more pm focuses roles for juniors (doubtful since very competitive but will try for practice)

My main target is to try and go for explore for pm entry but they do have some requirements for swe although ive been told it is fairly easy if you can make it past resume so I want to get a project etc or some swe experience to show im capable

[crisp stream]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[hearty totem]

I cannot claim to have any decent resume experience outside or academia so take it with a grain of salt. But why does the resume goeas chronologically? It should be inverse chronological, latest position at the top. Even if "current" is not as appealing a position people look as to where you are currently as the first thing in the resume

[sage gate]

why do i need to be good at origami to study software development????

[frozen nexus]

Who said that

[ashen geyser]

hey can anybody is starting from zero to learn python

[hearty island]

i'd just try "intern" or "intern AND program" on LI.

[iron oasis]

I try to leverage my military status I've found people will give military a chance.

[hearty island]

thank you for your service btw.

[muted bridge]

Thanks. How early would you say I should consider applying?

[hearty island]

you're graduating when exactly?

[fringe sphinx]

Research 'quant' positions.

[muted bridge]

May 2027 but looking for an internship for Summer 2025

[hearty island]

i second this

[true harness]

internship season usually begins in earnest ~late august and goes to ~thanksgiving

[hearty island]

what psvm said is valid. same thing here for me.

[fringe sphinx]

Worked for me, altho I also went to a defense contractor first. Lots of defense jobs obviously value military xp.

[hearty island]

so did my boss. well not my boss. one of my mentors.

[muted bridge]

alright

[hearty island]

my mentor was hard as nails on me fr but he must've seen some serious potential

[true harness]

what positions are you targeting?

[hearty island]

yea i wanna ask this too, the resume is a bit general?

i think you can tune it for say, a data analytics position.

[hearty island]

he was in the air force for 20 years. absolute G 🫡. then he's doing an apprenticeship to transition to civilian life.

[fringe sphinx]

What mos? Where'd you go for ait? Any additional schools? What rank at ets? Put the helpdesk role first, if it's still current.. it's more relevant to a job search. Any college courses?

[hearty island]

he said i should try my hand at the marines i was like dude i am not built like that 😭

although prime damian was in diff shape really, but not marine shape.

[hearty island]

did you use any coding or anything related to computers at the US army?

[iron oasis]

Internships, for next year. Keep in mind I'm set to graduate in Decemeber 2027

[iron oasis]

No, I was infantry, but things changed as I did riot protection personal security for high level general including Sergeant Major of the Army, inauguration

[hearty island]

Gotcha!

[true harness]

graduate from what

[iron oasis]

With cs and math degree

[true harness]

is it on your resume?

[iron oasis]

Na, don't think it's worth the space

[hearty island]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-huh-cat-huh-etr-gif-15332443943609734737

[true harness]

what kind of internships are you applying to? that seems like the one relevant thing you have. plus you have lots of free space to use

[hearty island]

wait, why is their education "not worth the space"?

[iron oasis]

IT to programming

[iron oasis]

I'd have to shorten some sentences on the resume to add an education section. Try to keep it one page

[true harness]

you already have an education section

[hearty island]

i'm gonna second psvm on this, there's quite a bit of white space here.

[true harness]

not to mention internships are typically only for university students, so not having uni on your resume may be a huge detriment

[iron oasis]

Lol I thought o removed it, must mistaken that with another section I had.

[hearty island]

my game-winning resume for example. i'm not saying it's perfect, but you can see it uses the whitespace well.

[iron oasis]

How relevant are academic honors

[hearty island]

meh, employers did ask me about it

[true harness]

why would you say the projects are low risk and low complexity in your most recent xp

[hearty island]

matched the job desc verbiage basically

[hearty island]

JD: "Work on multiple cross program initiatives of low risk and complexity simultaneously with direct supervision."

personally my projects are quite serious nowadays but whatevs

[iron oasis]

I was at a community college before my state college. GPA wasn't the best. Should I refer to overall GPA or institutional GPA as I'm taking college more serious.

[hearty island]

how high are both?

@true harness , i DMd you the role so you could see how my resume aligns

[fringe sphinx]

Any schools beyond ait?

[fringe sphinx]

You can just mention the years without mentioning GPA.

[iron oasis]

Overall 3.0
Institutional at state college is 4.0

[fringe sphinx]

and what rank at ets?

[hearty island]

should i have mentioned my cumulative undergrad gpa? it's a 3.72.

[iron oasis]

I tried rasp but failed, gor out as e4 but passed board for e5 but they wanted me to reenlist for the school and promotion.

[vapid crater]

Any opening for freshers?

[hearty island]

?

are you looking on linkedin?

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, fair, they used to pin before school but changed that a while back.

[vapid crater]

Sorry, I thought I could ask query realated to jobs.

[vapid crater]

Yes

[hearty island]

there are jobs for entry level ppl, yea.

[fringe sphinx]

yah, rasp is brutal I've heard... sfas even more so.

[iron oasis]

I think they changed it where they can pin before the e5 school as they needed e5s and covid messed everything up.

[fringe sphinx]

If you apply to defense contractors, it's worth having a one liner for infantry school under education. I'd probably put it regardless. Don't need to spend too much space on it, but it fills things out.

[fringe sphinx]

I was commo, so was easier to play up my background.

But, don't assume the reader doesn't know the subject or wouldn't recognize bases/schools/units. Sometimes a nice conversation starter.

[hearty totem]

That is indeed true. There is good value in being able to adapt to a team that the army teqchew you. I'm sold on your decision at keeping the military first👍

[naive reef]

hi @hearty island

[hearty island]

sup man, just put a screenshot of your resume up

[jaunty steppe]

@naive reef I would recommend you censor things like your phonenumber before posting here

[hearty island]

yea i would censor private info first.

[naive reef]

Smart man, that's my bad

[fringe sphinx]

Relevant coursework: YOu don't need to have bullets for each course. Hiring managers know what the courses mean.

At most, a list of courses. At best, no mention of courses. I think someone said it well here before: courses imply a weak resume.

[naive reef]

Yeah, I'll have to change that. I don't have many projects I've worked on so I was compensating.

[gritty rivet]

For a student with no professional experience, your resume should be single page.

For the relevant coursework section, titles only is enough. Don't include a lot of courses that aren't directly relevant to a given position

The testimony of character session is pure fluff. Cut it.

Include some sort of work experience section. Simply showing that you've held a job before is relevant at this stage of your career

[hearty island]

i feel like i say this too often, but: https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs

[naive reef]

Sure thing, @hearty island gave me similar advice

[hearty island]

for an example

[naive reef]

Thank you, I already got some really good advice on making it more effective

[hearty island]

yessirrrrrrr, keep up the grind.

[gritty rivet]

Feel free to come back with the revised version when you have it. It usually takes a few rounds of revision 😉

[naive reef]

Will do, thank you guys

[hearty island]

lol i have so many iterations on mine

it helped, tho. taught me how to write one fr fr.

[hearty island]

if it wasn't for this server i'd be cooked.

[void forge]

I'm lost to where I should progress to any ideas I'm a cyber consultant and backend dev mainly internal

[true harness]

when you say "Utilized the creation of classes in Java", you're highlighting a very basic feature of the language. that reflects poorly on the complexity of the project if the only thing interesting to say is that you used a basic language feature. instead, say what sets it apart from other projects, what makes it interesting, etc

[hearty island]

classes are instrumental in OOP, you can use them to do a lot. but "creating a class" is like ok so what

[naive reef]

You're right 100%, my current resume has so much filler it's pretty boring

[hearty island]

what does info science entail? why not cs btw?

[naive reef]

I wasn't able to get into the CS track, and Info Science is like one step below CS and still had relevant track for me to continue on

[hearty island]

oh, ok.

[naive reef]

I started in Summer and I was given a lot of reasons why I can't do CS, namely I didn't have a lot of pre reqs they needed me to have

[hearty island]

gotcha. dw man. i struggled in CS my freshman year lol. switched to another school.

[azure jewel]

I have to make one trading software thru python i have script idk how to use it coz i am new can anyone help.

[fringe sphinx]

#python-discussion is where you shoudl start.

[azure jewel]

Alr thanks

[orchid lodge]

hello guys, I want to be a fullstack developer and im 15 year old but i dont know where to start this sounds a little bit dumb but I dont want to be broke

[peak halo]

The path of least resistance with the most opportunities and highest compensation would be to get a computer science degree. And the best way to prepare for that in your current position is to do well in school, and especially in math.

[orchid lodge]

I dont want the least resistance man

[peak halo]

easiest.

[orchid lodge]

Make it as hard as possible and id do it anyways cuz success aint free

[graceful owl]

making it as hard as possible for yourself is inverse to being successful

[orchid lodge]

I have a computer and internet so im eligible to start

[graceful owl]

if you want to make it as hard as possible for yourself only eat dirt and water and sleep for 1 hour a day, but that won't make you successful

[orchid lodge]

That is unecessary rubbish to add to a conversation.

This isnt talking about eating dirt it is literally just a question to follow courses some of you may recommend

[graceful owl]

getting a CS degree will imbue you with a baseline set of skills you need to become a software developer, and will provide you with a broad set of skills, and will make you vastly more employable

[peak halo]

it isn't, though. I just told you the easiest/most straightforward way to achieve the success that you asked for.

[orchid lodge]

What type of skills does a fullstack developer require

[graceful owl]

other things you can do (that have certainly helped me with my career) is ON TOP of getting a degree (which is the most important thing), do a load of programming, make some websites, make some games, learn fundamentals, learn how to make code fast, etc.

[orchid lodge]

Ive made some websites and games

I have worked in a robotics team at my school so id say im good in python too and arduino

[graceful owl]

keep going then, make more and more complex things and you'll be successful

it's impossible to predict what the tech landscape will be in 5-6 years time after you graduate (which you should do), so it's not necessarily worth banking it all on learning specific web technologies for example

just keep programming and finding more things you're interested in

being interested in the stuff you're making will make it 1000% times better, this is really what i recommend

[orchid lodge]

Following your advice then, what would be the easiest position of work that i should pursue once im 18 (assuming im starting the learning now)?

[graceful owl]

you should get a CS degree when you're 18, if possible

in general, it's pretty hard to get a sweng job without a CS degree unless you're a real savant, in which case you should probably get a degree still anyway lol

[orchid lodge]

I just want to do this learning as a side because im learning bioengineering right now and space exploration fundamentals (programming fins, stabilisation systems etc..)

[fringe sphinx]

Don't think of it merely as acquiring "skills". Think of it as skills + breadth of knowledge + problem solving ability.

[orchid lodge]

skills are everything you just mentioned; mastering a skill means you know how to use it in every way

[fringe sphinx]

Did you understand what I meant?

[orchid lodge]

Yes i did but saying that it isnt merely as acquiring skills is wrong

[fringe sphinx]

That's a semantic debate.

[orchid lodge]

So from what i get rhubarb is i should still keep going with whatever im doing now and get a CS degree?

When is the best time to apply for a job if I need experience for better paying jobs?

[graceful owl]

when you're finishing your degree

there's also the potential to do internships in summertime between university terms, and your uni might also offer taking a year out to work in industry also

[gritty rivet]

I agree with the general message that a CS degree is a valuable baseline but to answer this question directly: https://roadmap.sh/full-stack

[orchid lodge]

I am still way to young for that, i have tried visiting a few universities and attended local programming competitions. I am by no means allowed to do any internship before i turn 17 which is too late in my opinion

[fringe sphinx]

Yes. The "normal" path to a SWE position is a CS (or similar) degree.

[graceful owl]

exactly, you're (probably) not going to be able to get a sweng job before you graduate from uni (and you also won't have much time if you're in school :p)

[orchid lodge]

Is faking age legal as long as i do the job correctly?

[gritty rivet]

No

[orchid lodge]

Did that a couple of times and got away with it but i dont think i should take it to this big extent

[latent shale]

hello everyone could we earn decent amount of money after learning ML development for 6 month?

I have just completed learning a language

[orchid lodge]

Thank you for this by the way it's pretty handy

[gritty rivet]

With no degree and no professional experience? Extremely unlikely

[latent shale]

yeah

[latent shale]

you mean , I can get intership? is it paid or free?

[orchid lodge]

Thats the problem nowadays in my opinion, its impossible to find jobs if you have no experience working even if you are very good

[graceful owl]

🤔

[gritty rivet]

Internships are generally for enrolled students. If that's you, it's worth looking to see what's available in your local area

[orchid lodge]

If any team is hiring and sees this chat, please give chances to young folks trying to pursue their dreams of building this wonderful career. Most of them are worth it dont let the age cloud your mind!!!!

[latent shale]

I am purising degree in computer scien engineering (specialisation in AIML)

[gritty rivet]

!rules 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[latent shale]

startups do give chances i have seen many

[orchid lodge]

I have read the rules and my message does not ask for work in any way..?

[gritty rivet]

Your program / recent graduates / senior students should be able to advise you around finding internship experience

[gritty rivet]

You're good, just wanted to make sure you're aware 😉

[orchid lodge]

👍

Who is public static void anbd why are you reacting with emojis the whole time 😭

[latent shale]

It is new course , like here in india we have 4 yr Btech(engineering degree) and this course have started in 2020 , probably this yr the first batch gonna passout , most of the seniours dont have idea , and ended up doing web dev

[fringe sphinx]

This, by the way, is one of the nice thing about the UK apprenticeship program... I think that's a great model for the rest of the world. At least from what I've heard.

[orchid lodge]

The problem with those apprenticeships is that they do those with insanely skilled individuals, talking about those people that can program in multiple languages

[fringe sphinx]

That's not the impression I've gotten.

[orchid lodge]

Mind explaining?

[fringe sphinx]

Also, programming in multiple languages is not a herculean feat. It's not even particularly impressive... most people graduate college (University) knowing 3 languages, ime.

[fringe sphinx]

The people who've posted here about their apprenticeship programs seem fairly "average" (not in a negative way, just not crazy outliers).

[orchid lodge]

I dont often speak in here so i might be wrong, thank you for correcting me. One of my friends actually lives in england and explained it to me.

[gritty rivet]

Not surprising. If anyone has beaten the odds you might find them on LinkedIn and get their advice. But specializing in AI/ML as an undergrad is probably not a realistic approach without continuing on for an advanced degree

[orchid lodge]

Dowcet are you currently working in this field?

[latent shale]

yeah that's what I also see , but you know that degree is just for name sake . My interest got really developed now in AI , I'm learning it for myself . I/m not going in web dev because it is already so much crowded

and AI stuff is so fascinating when it comes in real life application . Not the old once where It was helping in beckend like recommendation system etc etc

[gritty rivet]

AI/ML? No. I don't even have a CS degree, but I do work as a Python developer of sorts

[peak halo]

being able to program in multiple languages isn't really indicative of "insane skill".

[orchid lodge]

thats your opinion

[peak halo]

sure, and this is a sentence. what is your point?

[torpid birch]

First technical interview, ngl having some panic rn.
It's for a QA position and it will be 1:30h

The HR said it will be:

1 - mathematical questions

2 - Code questions

3 - Network questions

4 - Brainstorm test solutions

Any tips?

[peak halo]

there isn't really any knowledge you can cram in 1h30m that will change the outcome of the interview. I would focus on relaxing your mind and preparing to interact with the interviewers in a way that comes off as personable.

[orchid lodge]

Learning multiple languages enahances a programmers problem solving skills and actually mastering them takes alot of discipline, meaning they dont quit on something very easily. It is also a feat because you achieve flexibility in the market. You have a broad understanding of the multiple languages, effectively using strategies of others to fix bugs, make strong scripts etc. Thus mastering multiple languages is a indicative of insane skill due to the fact you can balance all the knowledge you know into your scripts.

[deft herald]

No offense, but i think you're talking out of your ass

[orchid lodge]

Go learn french russian arabic and chinese

[peak halo]

programming languages are not like natural languages. it's easy to gain superficial knowledge in multiple programming languages. the same can't be said for natural languages.

[graceful owl]

...do you think learning natural language equates to programming language?

[orchid lodge]

Isnt easy

[deft herald]

Are we talking about spoken languages or programming languages? They're very different

[fringe sphinx]

There's so much to pick apart in that argument. The general argument is: learning anything improves your problem solving skills. Mastering anything requires discipline and is a feat. Broad understanding is so multi-dimensional: multiple languages isn't more important, than, say understanding networking and operating systems.

[peak halo]

it's easy to gain superficial knowledge in a programming language, especially if you already know a programming language. and the work involved to become very experienced in a programming language looks pretty much nothing like the process of becoming fluent in a natural language.

[fringe sphinx]

"mastering multiple languages is a indicative of insane skill": This could be said about mastering anything, or mastering multiple things. But, mastery is different than just learning it.

[safe coral]

It’s not a resume issue

Jobs are too competitive

[fringe sphinx]

My point is: you can choose many different paths to becoming the best version of yourself. Multiple languages isn't the holy grail.

[orchid lodge]

Can you define skill for me

[true harness]

so you think you're just unlucky?

[safe coral]

I showed my resume to recruiter. They said data science, machine learning area is too competitive and I need much more skillsets

[fringe sphinx]

If we're having that discussion again, I'm out.

[peak halo]

why do you want him to define what skill is?
it seems like this is devolving to "how do you know that 1 + 1 = 2" in lieu of meaningful discussion

[safe coral]

Literally told me my experience is not good enough

[shut spear]

hi

[gritty rivet]

So the overwhelming majority of professional SWE's have "insane skill"? Weird take but ok

[deft herald]

knowing multiple languages just seems like a general requirement for any swe job

[fringe sphinx]

Not sure I directly agree with that. I generally am hiring for a single language, and don't really care about knowledge of others... however, it's rare to see a CS grad with only one language, so I don't really give it much thought.

[true harness]

maybe time to upskill then

[safe coral]

Bro I have skills

She said I wouldn’t be able to get any jobs unless I have worked for a tech company

Being 7 years in. She is a recruiter for Amazon

[deft herald]

fair enough. My exp is different but ive only had 2 jobs in the last 12 years so...

[fringe sphinx]

That's probably fair, you're in a weird crossroads and need that break. Maybe look for something below where you're aiming (even prompt engineering?)

[hearty island]

I had a conversation with jiggly last night regarding this

[safe coral]

Nope nothing. I can get a job as a cashier tho

[deft herald]

Jiggly of the Puff family?

[safe coral]

They hire me instantly

[hearty island]

Jiggly as in the dude who’s talking rn

[deft herald]

oh there he is

[safe coral]

Maybe just work as a cashier or admin assistant answering calls?

[pine sleet]

i think that is expected

[true harness]

seems like a waste of an MS

[pine sleet]

but it's probably not conducive to a good career

[safe coral]

Then what am I gonna do?

[hearty island]

pivot to a different area, no?

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I guess it's not the languages, but breadth of experience... I rarely see someone who is "expert" at multiple languages... they're (usually) main with one language. It's hard to maintain that level of expertise if you're not using it.

[hearty island]

coding for supply chain companies? healthcare?

[safe coral]

I applied to those positions too

they require experience

[hearty island]

You have experience tho? And a MS?

[safe coral]

not in coding for healthcare

[pine sleet]

perhaps look into entry level for a field you want to go in to? those generally don't require experience

[orchid lodge]

Its not a discussion im geniunly concerned about my own definition of skill

[hearty island]

Try “analyst” and ctrl + F for “years”

[safe coral]

even an entry level in DS requires Phd @pine sleet

[graceful owl]

why are you concerned with your definition of skill?

[hearty island]

click on each job posting and keep going, saving them to your saved jobs section.

[pine sleet]

i really doubt that

[orchid lodge]

I dont want my information to be wrong 🙏 😭

[whole flare]

🤨

[graceful owl]

...but why do you care about definition of 'skill' anyway?

[deft herald]

why dont you try describing what skill is?

[hearty island]

Check out this job at Plymouth Rock Assurance: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3978484349

[hearty island]

Found this in 5 seconds. Claims data analyst. Just a bachelors. No years of exp mentioned.

[peak halo]

your initial question was about what to do to become a full stack web dev. and I answered it. do you have any questions about my answer? it seems like we're just being pedantic now.

[safe coral]

Prior Property & Casualty Insurance experience preferred <<<<< @hearty island

[hearty island]

preferred.

[orchid lodge]

you didnt answer shit you just came in later

[graceful owl]

they were the first response to your question

[hearty island]

you’re qualified enough man, you have a masters degree.

[safe coral]

I applied to all those jobs

very similar but still didnt get in

[hearty island]

dude. You applied to 200. I applied to 4000. Do you see the difference? You might need a larger sample size.

[safe coral]

I applied 200 in two weeks

[hearty island]

with what, easy apply?

[safe coral]

over 6 months I applied like 5000

[torpid birch]

Yeah but answearing the questions, no idea what they will be about honestly

[safe coral]

easy apply and websites

[hearty island]

easy apply is a bit sus

imo

just an anecdote really

[hearty island]

any numerical breakdown? Pivot table?

[gritty rivet]

If you're not even getting interviews for 1% of your applications, this is almost always a resume issue... and that's if you're just cold applying for openings on the open web, which is no way to find a job in this market

[fringe sphinx]

There will be questions you cannot answer. Relax and handle it like a human. Take a moment, think, talk it out, etc. Maybe ask some questions. Don't go quiet for 10 minutes.

[digital fjord]

A good way to at least show that you have a process is to pick and solve a simpler variant of the question, then try to extend that into the real solution.

[fringe sphinx]

A good interview will test you and ask questions that you won't know... so don't panic. Handling a question you can't answer is very important: it shows people that they can work with you.

[safe coral]

Here's my resume @gritty rivet

[torpid birch]

Ok i see, thanks.
What scares me is not be able to answear anything 😄 because it's a brand new thing for me ahah

[hearty island]

I’ve had questions that I’ve had to think up responses on the fly. It’s important to take a pause and figure out what you’ll say.

[fringe sphinx]

Totally normal. Just prepare some stories about your background/experience. Nothing complicated. If they ask you for your biggest weakness. Or greatest challenge. etc.

[gritty rivet]

You've had 0 interviews after 4000 applications with this resume? I find that surprising. Are your classmates experiencing the same?

[safe coral]

Yeah

None of us has jobs basically

[hearty island]

no not 4000, that’s me. He’s applied to 200.

[safe coral]

in total its close to 4000 @hearty island Ive been applying since May 2023

[hearty island]

oh ok, I’ve been applying since July of 2023.

[deft herald]

Are you applying to the right jobs? Are there really that many DS openings even out there?

[safe coral]

I had 0 interviews

[hearty island]

well this was before you changed your resume right? Didn’t you just create that PDF last night?

[safe coral]

Yeah before my resume looked pretty much the same

[hearty island]

no, it did not. You had education at the bottom

[safe coral]

https://geisinger.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/GeisingerExternal/job/Business-Analyst-Intermediate_R-63933

[torpid birch]

Alright thanks for the words, the interview is friday so i have at least one day to prepare

[safe coral]

I got rejected for this position LOLOLOLOL

[hearty island]

Do you have 9 years of experience?

[safe coral]

yes

5 years at work plus 4 years in college

[hearty island]

They’re talking about 9 years of experience at a job

[safe coral]

*Relevant experience may be a combination of related work experience and degree obtained (Associate’s Degree = 2 years; Bachelor’s Degree = 4 years).

[hearty island]

They’ll go with the candidate who has 9 years of experience at a job

[safe coral]

no they say relevant experience

[hearty island]

I’m telling you man, shoot for entry level roles/junior roles.

[safe coral]

my friend got a job there with no experience (just college degree)

[hearty island]

your shots are literally out of the stadium right now. To give you a sports analogy.

[pine sleet]

yeah by definition entry level doesn't require experience

[safe coral]

its the same position

[pine sleet]

Is it entry level?

[safe coral]

intermediate

https://geisinger.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/GeisingerExternal/job/End-User-Support-Associate_R-63461

got rejected for this position too. LOLOLOLOL. IT job

[pine sleet]

well at the end of the day it's all about 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏 as a certain someone would say

[safe coral]

and they require high school diploma

[hearty island]

recursive_error

[safe coral]

Im racially profiled

[pine sleet]

Pretty sure that's illegal in the US

[safe coral]

like my professor said. They see my name is Turkish and go with other candidates. It is illegal but it wont stop them

[hearty island]

dude.

[pine sleet]

I don't think that's it...

[hearty island]

I don’t think that’s it chief

[safe coral]

https://www.npr.org/2024/04/11/1243713272/resume-bias-study-white-names-black-names

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/19/nearly-20percent-of-job-candidates-have-changed-their-names-on-resumes-because-of-discrimination-concerns.html

[regal axle]

Less than and 0 are not the same thing

[pine sleet]

that may be true but it sounds like you're just using it as a scapegoat

[safe coral]

Im gonna change my name

[hearty island]

ok change your name to John Doe. It’s not going to help.

[safe coral]

no

James McCurty will be my name

[pine sleet]

You are focusing on the wrong thing

[hearty island]

What Robin said

[safe coral]

my name is a black name

[peak halo]

now this is just ridiculous

[safe coral]

literally when I had my interview at the hotel I work. They said we thought you were black

[peak halo]

if you're going to change your name, at least keep your last name the same, and pick a plausible nickname for your first name.

if you blatantly lie about your name, that's going to have consequences.

[pine sleet]

I don't think your callback rate is going to increase significantly because of that

there are more fruitful things you can focus your efforts towards

[peak halo]

that you interviewed with them undermines your premise that having a "black name" stops you from being interviewed.

[fringe sphinx]

Tech is far more inclusive, in my opinion, than other fields. But I'm viewing it from the other side... but: nearly all the resumes have foreign first names. I care much more about communication skills (thick accents can be really tough to work with).

[deft herald]

Can confirm. We hired a guy recently with a really tough accent and it's actually had a significant impact

[hearty island]

Tune your resume. Focus on significant projects. Network.

[safe coral]

Dude

My resume is already tuned. Nothing more can be done. Im not gonna start lying on my resume

[hearty island]

https://tenor.com/view/wall-talking-talking-to-self-alone-lonely-gif-5869985

[safe coral]

to make it more appealing. Even dewcat said my resume looks great

[true harness]

my team has people in Ukraine, India. it's really hard sometimes, esp with teams audio messing with it

[hearty island]

This convo essentially

[safe coral]

you tell me to tune my resume

Its already tuned like 100 times

[true harness]

so are you giving up then? complaining without effort to improve is meaningless

[hearty island]

Persistence.

[fringe sphinx]

I worked for a big tech firm that hired "accent coaches" as a free service... they'd come onsite and run weekly clinics. (accent coaches? Or accent deprogramming? I dunno)

[safe coral]

well Im not gonna lie on my resume

I put my important projects in the resume too

[deft herald]

That's interesting. I should look into that

[safe coral]

Does this resume need tuning? @fringe sphinx

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, search for "accent reduction"

[fringe sphinx]

You already got feedback from a recruiter which was: get some tech experience. Sounds like good advice.

[true harness]

"deprogramming" sounds so sinister

[safe coral]

where am I gonna get some tech experience? @fringe sphinx

[hearty island]

by applying to jobs.

[safe coral]

I tried to apply to Amazon, Google, Microsoft and other big tech companies

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe look for something below where you're aiming: prompt engineering? data engineering? volunteer work for something data related? etc

[safe coral]

Data Engineering?

[fringe sphinx]

Those are going to be the most selective.

[hearty island]

Data engineering is huge

[fringe sphinx]

Data analytics jobs too

[safe coral]

Thats where Ive been applying

none of the data analytics or business analytics jobs are returning my applications

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/data-analyst-entry-level-at-engtal-3970476660?position=2&pageNum=0&refId=n9FYQf6xahOSl6u1G5mO%2FQ%3D%3D&trackingId=mEbg0P7vmdID85TwTxEmSQ%3D%3D&trk=public_jobs_jserp-result_search-card

I applied to this position 4 days ago. I got rejected the next day

[hearty island]

Easy apply makes me sus, anecdotally speaking.

[safe coral]

They only want you to apply through LinkedIn

[hearty island]

what?

[safe coral]

Please note: If you're interested in this position, please only apply via LinkedIn and do not reach out to our team directly as this can slow down our hiring process.

[hearty island]

I’m saying pick and choose easy apply. I barely used easy apply. You do you.

[safe coral]

I do both

but thats what Im saying I cant even get entry level jobs...

maybe they are not hiring me cuz Im still working? @hearty island

[hearty island]

no dude.

[safe coral]

someone said that they would go with someone with similar experience but currently unemployed than someone with similar experience and employed

[peak halo]

I've never heard of this. Every company I've heard of would rather give the best candidate a few extra weeks to transition between jobs than hire the next best candidate right away.

[safe coral]

Yeah

[true harness]

no. do you buy the product your friend is using, or the product that no one is using

[hearty island]

exactly. my current company legit asked me how much time i needed to leave my old company.

[safe coral]

Deloitte was gonna hire me but I said I was still working and they said they needed the position to be filled immediately

[hearty island]

might be an exception?

[safe coral]

so boom gone there

I said I needed to give 2 weeks notice and they never returned my email

[hearty island]

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3973699246

[peak halo]

sounds to me like they actually didn't want to hire you, unfortunately.

[safe coral]

and my calls

no they did. The position needed to be filed urgently

I didnt wanna quit without giving two weeks notice and that became a problem

[true harness]

so they said they wanted you by not hiring you

[safe coral]

I guess I should have... My friends do that. Like some change jobs and just quit

when they get a new job. They dont even give 2 weeks notice

[hearty island]

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3977044326

[safe coral]

first of all thats in Burlington, MA

[hearty island]

you said you were open to relocation.

[safe coral]

Yeah but usually those positions give leverage to people that already reside in the area

or at least in the same state

[hearty island]

ok, i'm mentally checking out of this conversation. there's an excuse for everything if you think hard enough, clearly.

https://tenor.com/view/sombrero-simpsons-the-simpsons-bart-simpsons-hat-just-got-home-gif-16969004

[safe coral]

Im just saying. A recruiter told me that as well

that they give priority to people that already reside in the state because relocation can take time

[hearty island]

https://tenor.com/view/just-keep-swimming-dory-finding-nemo-fishes-fish-gif-17218270

[safe coral]

now are you gonna work in your state or out of your state? @hearty island

[hearty island]

my office is 5 mins away from my house. i am also remote.

[safe coral]

there you go

[hearty island]

ok and? i got a job in MD as well. and DC.

[safe coral]

relocation is expensive

[torpid birch]

ngl anxiety is getting the best of me for no reason at all. I've seen some questions on glassdoor and for a QA Engineer they want a lot of knowledge on Windows/Linux and networking

[safe coral]

well I dont know if I can afford to relocate. Thats the problem

[fringe sphinx]

Sounds like you're saying you are not applying to certain jobs because you might not get hired?

[safe coral]

If I get a job, how am I gonna pay for moving expenses and new housing

considering Im only making 20 bucks an hour atm

[gritty rivet]

It's true that focusing your job search locally generally helps. And if you're living somewhere with no relevant jobs, you may simply need to move to have a good chance

[hearty island]

generally. but honestly i would apply anywhere in the US if you can relocate. except cali.

[safe coral]

if you can afford I should say

[gritty rivet]

This is a bad reason to not apply. If you get an offer you can negotiate moving expenses

[safe coral]

are companies willing to pay for relocation?

[deft herald]

yes

[true harness]

yes

[hearty island]

indeed.

[safe coral]

I only see them for state jobs

[fringe sphinx]

You can prepare, but the anxiety you've got to deal with. Remember that: it's just an interview. You probably won't get hired (this is true for any interview), so you're just there for a conversation. Maybe you'll learn something. Maybe you'll get along great with interviewer, maybe you won't.

[deft herald]

Worst case scenario, that's just what you spend your signing bonus on

[true harness]

relocation is a tiny amount of the cost of acquiring a dev

[safe coral]

I mean for an entry level job? @true harness they may not wanna go that way

[true harness]

sure, why not? my brother got several thousand to relocate for his entry level job. not even software

[safe coral]

if you are talking about senior junior positions they may be able to do that

[delicate swift]

Wh not just apply and see what happens anway

[fringe sphinx]

That's not what I said. I said you gave reasons to not apply based on likelihood of getting the job. That's not your concern: apply regardless. It's completely different if you don't want or can't relocation.

[leaden jasper]

At my company relocation is a standard thing they offer to any full time employee regardless of level

[gritty rivet]

It's true, "they may not". So what? Don't sabotage yourself thinking about a worse case scenario.

[hearty island]

same here.

[safe coral]

okay I will apply everywhere I guess

[leaden jasper]

"Let other people tell you no"
It's not useful for you to say no to a job prematurely on what-ifs. Apply anyway and see if it'll work out or not.

[safe coral]

does my resume look good @gritty rivet

[feral narwhal]

print("Hello World!")

nice

[hearty island]

“You miss all the shots you don’t take”

[safe coral]

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/early-career-software-engineer-ai-machine-learning-at-google-3971187697?position=20&pageNum=0&refId=BvWcZD%2BKVgPFc76YfX0vaw%3D%3D&trackingId=KqsCmW71DkOKwUG2WkJnkg%3D%3D&trk=public_jobs_jserp-result_search-card

[gritty rivet]

You're above my level, but I think so. The feedback that matters more is going to come from your classmates, former coworkers, etc.

[safe coral]

OMG this looks good! I shall apply to this

https://www.google.com/about/careers/applications/jobs/results/140166094567416518-early-career-software-engineer/?src=Online/LinkedIn/linkedin_us&utm_source=linkedin&utm_medium=jobposting&utm_campaign=contract

[fringe sphinx]

Wayne Gretzky - Michael Scott.

[hearty island]

lmaooo, yep.

[delicate swift]

Oh, he exists? I thought he was just a character for Everybody Hates Chris

[torpid birch]

You are right, the No is guaranteed, the yes is a bonus 😄

[fringe sphinx]

Huh?

[delicate swift]

O-
I thought Wayne Gretzky didn't exist

[fringe sphinx]

Whaaaa

[hearty island]

...

[deft herald]

Do you know Michael Jordan is real too? So was Babe Ruth

[hearty island]

or Messi? or Muhammad Ali?

YES

SO PROUD OF YOUUUUUUUU. Funny how we both got them in July.

[radiant vortex]

Well done guys 🥳

[hearty island]

Yea, just a coincidence

My friend over in r/FC wants to move to Amsterdam

Financial Careers, discord server.

wow

[gritty rivet]

It's the only place in the world where I've been way more afraid of getting run over by a bike then a car 🤣. Which is a good thing, but definitely took some getting used to as a pedestrian

[safe coral]

I still can’t get a job @turbid bobcat I’m should move to Europe at this point hahaha

Dual citizenship works better for my chances in Europe lol

Turkey has become the fastest growing hub in Europe in terms of tech apparently

https://www.ft.com/content/1010e729-a33f-4fd8-acd6-e5391bca45e0

[lofty wolf]

Did i miss the oporutnity to join this years code jam

[peak halo]

Yes

[lofty wolf]

oof

and did i also miss the github tutorials?

[safe coral]

I have no callbacks @turbid bobcat

Do you guys write a cover letter for every job application?

[peak halo]

No. I've only heard of cover letters being useful for very senior, late-career positions.

[safe coral]

okay thanks. I was gonna say thats gonna be hassle

[gritty rivet]

Yeah, I generally don't bother unless I'm exceptionally interested in the role. It used to be required a lot more but these days not so much

[safe coral]

yeah but growth rate is really high @chrome hamlet

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, but I'm not sure I've ever read one.

(Sorry to all those great writers)

[alpine blaze]

This question isn't so Python specific - I'm very new to GitHub, figuring it out etc.. I work on my projects between my laptop and PC. With regard to GitHub, if I push/commit from my desktop one day, and I have to use my laptop the next day, should I do a pull on my laptop? Or do I maintain my own code, and only push/commit? I ask, because I'm trying to build up my GitHub for job searching, what kind of stuff do recruiters or interviewers like to see with respect to push/pull etc?

Push/commit/pull are the only terms I fully understand. When I ask friends in the business, they talk to me like I've used GitHub my whole life, it's like watching a show of House, and only House talking has audio. Anyway, I digress...tia

[carmine haven]

Computer science or computer engineering or software engineering as a major?

[peak halo]

for the universities that you're looking at, what do they mean by "computer engineering"? because if that means "electrical engineering as it pertains to computer hardware", I assume that's not what you want to do.

as for computer science vs software engineering, in general, computer science is more theoretical and software engineering is more applied. "computer science" as the name for a degree is much more established than "software engineering". look at what sorts of jobs graduates from both programs get.

[carmine haven]

Its a BE in electrical and computer engineering which is more electronics and CS is theoretical and practical computing

But im not sure what to go for i really like cs but my dad wants a bachelor of engineering and not a bachelor of science

[fringe sphinx]

Uh, a bachelor of engineering is usually a BS. Unless you're at one of the few schools where it's not. At least in Us.

[alpine blaze]

There are ABET accredited CS degrees, I just finished mine. Though it isn't an engineering degree, the math requirements match Engineering degrees. You can also Minor in SE, with a CS degree, I did that too. I had CIS, CS, CE and SE options for my minor.

[fringe sphinx]

Oh yah, what country?

[lofty wolf]

Anyone?

[twilit portal]

Yeah they already happened
Here are the recordings from the last year's GitHub tutorials, should be pretty much the same:
#code-jam-participants-hangout message

[safe coral]

gurl my resume is great

You have seen it before lol

Data Analyst and Scientist positions

what kind of positions are you applying to?

omg I dont have any experience in Backend DevOps tho

no

Im doing masters now... I mean development jobs usually look for someone who studied CS

I develop stuff but its in the lieu of ML and AI

[balmy mural]

I landed in development very quickly after finishing my degree in Data Science after being unable to land a job in the field

[safe coral]

Really? So they dont care if your experience is development or not? @balmy mural

[balmy mural]

Degree in DS, projects very much machine learning related. Couldn't find DS job after searching for about 2-3 months. Expanded to development jobs and had 2 offers within 2 weeks

[balmy mural]

If you can pass the technical screenings, you should be completely fine since your degree is adjacent to CS

[gritty rivet]

Have a friend who did a data science bootcamp... It seems like most people landed in data engineering instead

[safe coral]

yeah but do you have experience in software development

there you go. I dont have one

Yeah all my jobs are more on MLE. I didnt develop software

I did develop models tho

[torpid birch]

hey PT m8, i finally got a interview for a company that is not consulting or from PT lol, they do pay way above our market but they also have more technical interviews. Going to have 2 seperate interviews, first one 1h30min and then a 2h one with the team (i assume this one only goes if i pass the 2nd one)

[safe coral]

I do coding but only in Python

[torpid birch]

Full remote even tho they have an office that people work from in Lisbon but it is not mandatory, just for people that enjoy going there, honestly the HR interview was waaaay smoother than consultings with way less clutter

[safe coral]

I am horrible at java and c++ failed both courses

[torpid birch]

What i am currently worried about is the question, saw some on glassdoor so i know a bit of what is coming.

Onsite is rough, required?

[astral lichen]

Hi I am new to python can anyone tell me what can I start with?

[torpid birch]

The HR told me it will follow this structure:
1 - mathematical questions

2 - Code questions

3 - Network questions

4 - Brainstorm test solutions

It's for a Q&A Engineer based on python automation

They pay you relative to where you are going? Or the pay is the same as you get now?

[balmy mural]

Hell yea, congrats. Are you on the hook for finding a place to stay at or is the company helping you? Massive housing crisis there atm

[torpid birch]

No idea how much that is but I assume it’s good $ ggwp, now I just wait till Friday and try not to panic 🙂

[balmy mural]

I'm actually not certain how bad the market is for renters. I just know it's terrible for first time home owners right now to get anything

People are bidding 30-40% more than listed prices for apartments

I assumed as much. If you plan on getting a car and don't mind a longer commute, the villages around Amsterdam are also good options to consider

Ah, an OV-chipkaart. If the company is covering travel costs, you can definitely look into a whole bunch of places. Utrecht to Amsterdam is about 30minutes by train. So that's probably the radius of villages you could look at depending on how much commute time you can handle. Keeping in mind that you'd still have some commute to and from the stations via bus/bike

[torpid birch]

Afaik the ones i got are:

Sasha is looking at Olga, and Olga’s looking at Andrew. Sasha has children, and Andrew does not. Is a person who has children looking at a person who does not have children? The answer options are "Yes", "No", "Cannot be determined". Explain your reasoning.

Estimate the number of mechanical weighing scales in operation in the Czech Republic. Nobody knows the exact number but try to estimate it as closely as possible. Explain your reasoning.

Assume that the company you work for is making electric scooters. You are assigned to work on the safety of this future product. What safety tests will you perform?

Assume that the company you work for is planning to start building houses in Antarctica in the next ten years. Your role is Technical Project Manager. A seminar will soon be organized with experts on issues related to this task. What would you like to clarify with them to start working on the project? Prepare a list of specific questions, answers to which you will need to start designing the houses and the required infrastructure.

Those are not all math questions, but i assume they count has such since there is only this kind of questions on glassdoor

[balmy mural]

My partner is Dutch, I've been to the Netherlands quite a few times

Almost every Dutch person has an OV-chipkaart

[torpid birch]

Yeah the thing is that there are mixed answears on glassdoor so i have no idea if those are really the math questions. They also ask a lot of windows / linux and networking questions. For a QA Engineer it do be a little bit strange.
But i guess they pay relatively good for such knowledge, i can throw the gross per year number which is 45k, atm i do less than 20k per year

[fringe sphinx]

QA engineers tend to end up doing a lot of infrastructure work to setup tests or reproduce issues. (tend? or, often? or sometimes? I dunno how to categorize it)

[balmy mural]

Yea, I def want to get to the Netherlands. Aiming to get there by July/August next year

It's very friendly, and majority of the population can speak English. One of the hardest things about learning Dutch is when people realize you're not Dutch while speaking to them, they'll switch to English to make the conversation easier for you. I'm unsure if the tax ruling is still the full 30%, it was changed for Jan 2024, but there's been backlash and I'm unsure if there's been changes since

[torpid birch]

I see, and being a backup software company it makes sense.

[balmy mural]

It's 30 first 20 months, 20 next 20 months, and then 10 for final 10 months right now

Hopefully they change it to be better before I go over xD

Yea, it's still good, but it used to be a flat 30% for a full 5 years, so definitely a downgrade. What's PT?

[torpid birch]

Ok aparently the questions are:
IT Questions: IPv4, IPv6, mask, default gateway, MAC, NAT, routing, DHCP, DNS, NTFS, FAT, Windows and Linux administration. Math Questions: exponents, binary & hexadecimal conversion

I hope they let me use a calculator lol math ain't my forte

[balmy mural]

Looks like expats in Portugal don't get a tax break, but instead just pay a flat 20% tax on income? That's actually insanely good

[torpid birch]

Do people usually let you google when it's a questionary based interview? like filling a form?

[balmy mural]

I've generally been allowed to google during technical interviews. I've not been allowed to google during some shorter screenings that weren't necessarily technical interviews, but rather baseline knowledge or logical thinking type of stuff

[torpid birch]

This aligns with what the HR dude said to me:

1. Part 1 takes around 2 hours. It is an online written questionnaire focused on testing, Windows and Linux administration as well as mathematical and logical thinking skills. You will have 1 hour to complete the questionnaire. Then, you are connected with the team leader, and we together go through the questionnaire in detail

btw, i calculated the gross per month if all the $ is subjected to taxation, it would drop from 3200 gross to 2000 Euros per month 🙂

i see, i did that too, still only raised 200 Euros

Can't really do it 100% accurate since they only said they could do the 45000 (I asked for that btw, not sure if it is 100% true, but he didn't seemed bothered) and did not sent any values.
Yes SS + IRS

I am on the last year of the IRS Jovem i think, isn't it 4 years total?

[balmy mural]

I think the bigger your workforce deficit is, the more inclined you are to consider implementing tax breaks like this. Germany is looking to do similar tax breaks because they desperately need skilled people in specific positions. More than one third of companies are currently experiencing a shortage of skilled workers

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, which one if you don't mind me asking? I know the space well.

[torpid birch]

Veeam, it's fine lol

[fringe sphinx]

Oh yah, know them well. If anything, VMware knowledge is valuable.

Learning some basic backup terms isn't hard, incremental vs full backups, for instance

[torpid birch]

Yeah lol just got my brain numbed when i checked the numbers

[balmy mural]

Go far enough west in Germany and you end up with Germans who speak no English, but some Dutch instead. It's understandable that they require German if the general population doesn't speak English as well as for example Netherlands xD

[torpid birch]

Ah i see, i posted the glassdoor details above but this is what they usually ask aparently:

IT Questions: IPv4, IPv6, mask, default gateway, MAC, NAT, routing, DHCP, DNS, NTFS, FAT, Windows and Linux administration. Math Questions: exponents, binary & hexadecimal conversion.

loool i see i see

[true harness]

the same way you can understand && means "and", you can understand "and" means "whatever in your native language"

[fringe sphinx]

Those are good and basic. Not too hard to learn, but maybe hard to learn in a week

[torpid birch]

If you mean untill the tech interview, it's friday 😄

[true harness]

my point is that they're just symbols, that happen to be English words

look at is. the English meaning does not distinguish between identity and equality. look at or. it definitely doesn't do the same thing as English, otherwise we wouldn't have or-gotchas. look at lambda. the origin is totally disconnected from what it actually does

and lambda isn't English!

even if the English meaning told you exactly what a specific piece of syntax did, that still wouldn't be a big advantage, because programming isn't about knowing syntax

you wrote, "big disadvantage". if that disadvantage goes away once being familiar with the language, it surely not big enough to warrant learning an entirely new spoken language

[delicate swift]

Sooo, hey. I was unexpectedly contacted by a recruiter for a position as a developer, and she's scheduled the interview for tomorrow.
Thing is, I fill... most of her requirements and even match some her unicorn requirements, but I am entirely unprepared for this interview and how to present myself in a good light to maximize my chances of landing the job – which would be a massive, MASSIVE jump forward to me in both pay and experience.

[smoky quest]

is this a technical interview or just to get in touch?

[delicate swift]

I guess I'm feeling rather nervous because it was very sudden – we started talking yesterday and we've already jumped to an interview phase

[delicate swift]

Just to get in touch, according to her. She's trying to find developers for a game development company, and is currently screening candidates

The interview is remote, thankfully. I'd like to look my best and present myself perfectly so I leave a good impression

[smoky quest]

then just say that aren't ready for technical screenings but happy to chat if she just want to get in touch

[delicate swift]

I don't want to deny her at anything and possibly lose out on a job – I desperately need it

Within reason, of course. But if she'd like to do a technical screening immediately, I can PERHAPS wing it and see how I'll do
I just don't to have the recruiter lose interest on me while I have nothing attractive to show yet.

[safe coral]

I literally applied over 80 jobs

I’m guessing I will get 0 callbacks haha

[smoky quest]

just said you aren't prepared and it wouldn't be a faithful representation of your skills

[safe coral]

How’s my resume? @smoky quest

[safe coral]

😄

[fringe sphinx]

Recruiters want you to succeed, that's their job. Third party recruiters especially: they only get paid if you get hired

[stiff basalt]

I was taught a 1 page resume gets beaten by a 2 page resume so stretch it and always add on to it

[hearty island]

for an entry level grad?

[pine sleet]

nobody has time to read all that
except for people who really have that much relevant experience

[fringe sphinx]

Sure, if you have the experience to justify a second page. Or, maybe if the first page is so damn good.

But, for the 99% of people, a really good one page is better than two crappy pages

[hearty island]

Agreed. An impactful one page is 🔥

[spiral sparrow]

Has anybody here transition to Software engineering that has not major in CS or engineering degree? Am talking degrees like economics or psychology.

[hearty island]

like a non-traditional background?

[spiral sparrow]

Yes

[hearty island]

idk tbh. there are definitely people who have, i'm just not sure if they're on this server

[spiral sparrow]

Thank you for telling me then

[safe coral]

I think I applied to 100 jobs today @hearty island

[hearty island]

congrats lol?

i only applied to like 40 a day or so.

[spiral sparrow]

You got laid off

[hearty island]

https://tenor.com/view/joe-biden-presidential-debate-huh-confused-gif-16704157274113773062

[spiral sparrow]

Am just asking since applying did jobs and that the USA does not have a a lot of jobs so far

[hearty island]

i did not get laid off, lol.

[spiral sparrow]

Okay

[harsh river]

you have a bachelors in digital forenscis and cybersecurity?

[safe coral]

Yup

[safe coral]

is that bad?

[hearty island]

no? i don't think so?

[hearty island]

i just found a sentdex vid series for python in finance.

[stiff basalt]

im assuming you dont know much about the real world sir infact most pre hiring includes background checks, knowledge tests and even interviews so your sayimg they would rather know less about you than more?

[stiff basalt]

it cant be to good if its only one page/\

[smoky quest]

Let's not assume anything about folks and focus more on the strength of the arguments rather than their assumed level of experience and exposure to the real world.

Job ads receive thousands of applications. And for the first pass, you should assume the decision will be made in at most 30-45s.
As such, for entry level engineers, you should aim for a single page.
And the way to look at it is not whether or not someone wants to know less about you, but rather how to effectively communicate your value in less than 30-45s

[smoky quest]

everyone else can do it. I am sure it's possible!

[pine sleet]

generally those all come in the later stages

where the candidate pool is far smaller and they can give more time to each candidate

[stiff basalt]

thats assuming aswell your assumption is that they value time over quality that being said i know they have more than one person looking at resumes and hiring over the phone or via skype etc, that also depends on the company though. everything depends and since you dont know 100% You should go with quality over time

[smoky quest]

That's antithetical to the best practices I have observed in the field, but do what works for you

[stiff basalt]

i see your point and i dont disagree but that also depends on the company and how much time they have

[pine sleet]

you can have a good balance between time used and quality of candidates. what most employers do nowadays is a good balance. what you are suggesting is on the far end, if you want to think of it like a number line

[pine sleet]

yes, this is true, but for 99% of companies they don't have the time to do an in depth review of every single candidate, at least for more than a hundred

small local businesses that get maybe few dozen applicants could probably afford to take more time per

it's just not feasible for anything more than that

[stiff basalt]

of course that is why you want to send in your best resume and constant;y check up on the company you are going for

[pine sleet]

indeed. always present the best version of your resume and stay updated on the status of your applications

[stiff basalt]

dont limit yourself to one page thats ilogical put it all out if its good they wont ignore you 9-10

[pine sleet]

you may stand out in a bad way when most other candidates have one page resumes

[stiff basalt]

but then again you may stand out as an outgoing canidate

[pine sleet]

no, you will most likely stand out as someone that doesn't know how to communicate effectively

[smoky quest]

you would stand out as someone with subpar communication skills

[pine sleet]

because all the other candidates that are just as skilled as you, if not more, are able to concisely fit everything about themselves in one page without wasting the time of the person reading your resume

i am not sure i would want to work for a company that mistakes verbosity for intelligence

[smoky quest]

the best way to appear smart is to say nothing

[stiff basalt]

everyone is sending in the same thing why follow the crowd, if you want to stand out be different and you wont stand out like you cant communucate where did this come from?, not everyone is as skilled as you if your an outgoing canidate you have to have the mindset that you are the best, of course that may seem illogical for it is your not the best but you must put it out like losing you is like losing a 10x world champ coder

[smoky quest]

It's not the job of the recruiter to figure out what's relevant to them and what make the candidate good

[stiff basalt]

the recruiters job is to get candidates

[smoky quest]

The same way car makers don't throw a spec sheet to the would-be-customers. They throw ads to show how powerful and cool are their cars

[smoky quest]

No. The job of recruiters is to find the best candidate for a given role

[stiff basalt]

as i just said but put differently

[pine sleet]

there is a time and place for being special and unique but screwing around with the format is not it

[smoky quest]

I would interpret them differently

[pine sleet]

you don't want to distract the interviewer with a weird format, or why your resume is 2 pages, you want them to immediately look at the important parts and know as much about you as they can

like r_e said they have maybe 30-45 seconds, if you don't interest them in that time, you're not getting that job

you can show how special and outgoing you are once you're in the job

[stiff basalt]

you guys do you this is probably why you all need to put in applications to 100s of companys in hopes 2 months later 1 will respond back, no dissrespect but this is not very good advice. if you believe iut works good for you go for it but put it to a test reach out to 10 companys with a good resume not limiting yourself to one page and reach out to 100 with 1 page limiting yourself see how many responf back

[pine sleet]

i have heard many hiring managers and people who read resumes as part of their job in this channel say the same thing about format and length

[stiff basalt]

absolutley right that is a good argument but then i could argue some of the parts that dont seem important to you may seem important to them

[pine sleet]

if one does this in their resume, they are implying "i don't know what's important about myself, here is everything so you can just figure it out yourself"

this is why people with good resumes will have spent a lot of time and research figuring out what would be most important and impactful for people reading that resume

[smoky quest]

know your audience

[stiff basalt]

not true at all thats saying everything on this paper is important, to you that may be true but in reality most the time its not, the more you limit your resume the less the job interveiwer knows about you, like i said you do you limit yourself.\

[pine sleet]

yes you limit yourself, but only to the important stuff

leave out the stuff that isnt important

it is a good kind of limit

[stiff basalt]

how do you know the interviewer thinks its important?

[pine sleet]

it's pretty obvious

[stiff basalt]

for the most part but what about the not so obvious parts

[pine sleet]

it's worth the risk

[stiff basalt]

"risk"

[pine sleet]

it is better to leave out some small detail that may have been important than to come off as having bad communication skills

[smoky quest]

Same thing for resumes:

“I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead.”
― Mark Twain

[stiff basalt]

absolutley i agree bad communication skills is horrible, although having a well put together resume is better than a crammed one

[pine sleet]

and the common wisdom in industry for well put together resumes is one page except for seniors

[smoky quest]

I prefer a small one that is well put together than a big one that is unsightly

[inner hemlock]

Man, I am stressing waiting for this response from OpenAI. I think I did well given that they asked me for references but... I'm nervous

[smoky quest]

they are asking for references before giving you an answer?

[inner hemlock]

Yeah, I did two rounds of interviews, and then they asked me for a couple references

[stiff basalt]

ofc an unsightly resume would be horrible but a well put together one with all the obvious and not so obvious information is better than a crammed, thrown together resume

[pine sleet]

a short and sweet resume is even better! always go for the best resume you can

[smoky quest]

in general, you don't ask for references if you don't intend to make an offer since it's quite time consuming. But being openai, they may be odd

[stiff basalt]

theres many arguments to both sides that are not wrong in no way shape or form. i am just pointing out the errors new programmers comming out of college are facing at this given time

[pine sleet]

the length of their resume is not that big of an issue compared to some other issues for them

[smoky quest]

definitely! And one that fits in a single page and is will put together and communicate your value wins

[stiff basalt]

i agree but some minor fixes add up to a lot

[pine sleet]

many of them know to keep it to one page (it's the industry standard, you could say) and usually change it to one page when recommended

new grads usually have more trouble with the content and how to present themselves

[inner hemlock]

That's what I'm hoping, plus the recruiter told me in the email that "Feedback is looking positive"

[hearty island]

Langone asked me for references

[smoky quest]

Potential future congrats then! Crossing fingers!

[stiff basalt]

i would communicate more on this topic although its getting late ima relax and watch a movie you you guys are not wrong in no way was i saying you were but both are arguable sides

[inner hemlock]

Thanks, really hoping to get the job!

[smoky quest]

this is quite an interesting name. But hopefully they are real and it goes well!

[hearty island]

NYU Langone, largest hospital chain in NY I believe

[smoky quest]

oh nice!
Huge potential for word play too

[hearty island]

but yea odd name lol

[hearty island]

I’ve already accepted another offer tho, so I don’t feel good about flirting

[smoky quest]

here we go again

[hearty island]

LMAOOOOO

[hearty island]

in the mean time I’ve received two interview requests as well

[smoky quest]

bro is taking the "always be interviewing" literally

[inner hemlock]

I was wondering, I saw some stats recently about junior / new grad engineers having an extremely tough time in the market to find a job right now. Is that true?

[pine sleet]

seems like it

[inner hemlock]

I feel like I may have gotten lucky in my career. I've only interviewed 4 times and gotten the offer all but once...

[smoky quest]

It's all relative. Market is certainly worse than a few years ago but somewhat getting better.
Also note that the market is bimodal

[pine sleet]

i think linkedin job posts for that category of jobs are also very low right now

[hearty island]

nah man these are from before I even got the offer

[pine sleet]

if that's anything to go by

[smoky quest]

so you will decline them?

[hearty island]

yes. I do what my parents say. And they said decline, so I’ll decline. I have to keep shit fair for other candidates

There’s no reason to waste people’s valuable time

[smoky quest]

Am impressed

but does that mean you ain't too excited by either of the offer you signed or offer you are getting?

[hearty island]

No I’m very excited about it. It’s $80k USD right out of college + the good old benefits package

[smoky quest]

which one?

[hearty island]

The offer I recieved

[smoky quest]

the already signed one? or the hospital?

[hearty island]

The already signed one

[smoky quest]

ah nice! Being excited is the main thing

[hearty island]

Yessir. I just have an I-9 left to sign

[hearty island]

I also networked my way into the role too. Your network is your net worth fr fr

[smoky quest]

it does help

[hearty island]

that’s going to be my saying on this server, probably.

[smoky quest]

But it also means it opens you to backdoor reference check

[hearty island]

wdym by that?

[smoky quest]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation

It's not uncommon that in the future, for a next interview, someone notice you both have someone in common in your history.
They won't tell you but they may reach out to your mutual connection to get feedback on you.
Which is also why it's important to be careful about whether or not and which bridge you are willing to burn

[hearty island]

Oh. Yea I wouldn’t be surprised. I haven’t burnt any bridges yet through. Left on amicable terms for every company so far.

[inner hemlock]

Burning bridges can generally be avoided. I don't think I've burned any bridges since freshman year of high school

I've definitely worked with people who I wouldn't want to work with again, though...

[hearty island]

I’ve worked with managers who’ve yelled at me while working and they help me out with referrals and stuff after.

It’s a strange world we live in, man

[smoky quest]

there are all sorts of people. Even those who wouldn't tell you they wouldn't work with you but would backstab you nonetheless

[hearty island]

I have 3 solid references from every job I’ve done

[smoky quest]

or the senior people who mistreat juniors, but forget that in a few years, the juniors won't be so junior anymore

[smoky quest]

doesn't matter for backdoor references

[hearty island]

Yea you’re right

[smoky quest]

still good though

[hearty island]

You mind if I send you a friend request and talk to you about the role I got?

[smoky quest]

sure, assuming it's private and would not fit here

[hearty island]

Yea I don’t wanna be like omg guys look I work for X company doing Y role. No real privacy that way.

[hearty island]

My internship is very unhappy I’m leaving tho fr. I gave them a 2 week notice and even offered to talk to my replacement. They’re still upset.

I just didn’t wanna stick around making an intern’s hourly wage

[smoky quest]

ngl, that's the first time I hear about someone leaving an internship

[hearty island]

Well they laid me off last time due to budget reasons

[hearty island]

Idk they struggle at converting interns to full timers

[smoky quest]

that's a signal for them that they should tweak things to make it more attractive