career-advice

[sage hatch]

What should I be asking in coffee chats? Who should I ask for coffee chats? How would I go about asking (Email, in person, whatever)?

[shrewd parrot]

and should i be sharing my github even if it is empty?

[sage hatch]

would defo recommend linkedin. does zero harm and all it can do is help you

[regal axle]

I have dealt with fintech. But no, not right now, I am not. Also US based. But I have heard the exact same sentiment from many other fields. 1:1. Some have more merit over others. But in a general sense, it is very focused on a single point of entry. As if there is only one way to succeed in the world / field.

[smoky quest]

work smart, not hard

People are rewarded for results, not hours spent working

[dense mesa]

First week you should be having a coffee with everyone in your team, second week is adjoining teams, after that you'll get a feel for it.

Just ask people in person or email, I can go into more detail if needed but you'll probably forget by next year haha

[regal axle]

It matters to the people who check. Impossible to know if someone else cares or not. And there are lots of good networking opportunities through linkedin. Not required to use; but a nice to have. "does zero harm and all it can do is help you" (unless it takes up time away from developing as a candidate)

[shrewd parrot]

and github?

[dense mesa]

Finance is pretty notorious for an insanely high barrier to entry...

[regal axle]

If it is empty, don't share it. But I would focus on getting it not empty. Don't force it though. Organically work on programming.

[smoky quest]

Always ask yourself: why if I do X and what if I don't?
So what would be the benefit of advertising an empty github?

[regal axle]

I 100% promise you that this is not just finance that thinks this way. Yes, some sub industries are easier or harder to enter. But just be aware that there are other industries that have a "high barrier to entry". And it is also further showing that you are missing my point. Maybe my fault for not explaining it in a way that makes sense to you. But I feel like we might "argue" about semantics for an hour, so . I guess I will leave it at that (unless you have something more you want to add / me to respond to)

[dense mesa]

JPM looks better on a resume than Barclays. If Kyle had chosen Barclays, I would have advised trying to get the JPM offer back if possible, or go for something comparable.

Being reductionist on purpose to try and claim it doesn't really matter is technically true but JPM still looks way better and offers the least resistance to future opportunities. I'm not hear to split hairs over "semantics"

[smoky quest]

I would also suggest to prioritize the actual work being done over which cafeteria you had lunch at

[sage hatch]

one thing to add, barclays did offer a slightly higher pay

[dense mesa]

JPM is a tier 1 BB, the pedigree of a company is pretty important

[sage hatch]

but i figured jpm as a whole would be more beneficial

[smoky quest]

In terms of internships, the work done will have far more impact than anything else.
The pay doesn't matter as much and won't carry over to your real jobs once you graduate

[sage hatch]

yeah i thought as much

[dense mesa]

@sage hatch important for context: are you looking to work in finance in some capacity? As an engineer or otherwise

[sage hatch]

yeah definitely planning to do fintech after uni

and then potentially changing to a tech company further down the line with the goal of ending up in a faang company

but i want to experience fintech before

[dense mesa]

If you're looking for banking, buy-side or otherwise, obviously the work is important, but the name is also very important as well.

It's a highly archaic industry with many many applicants: they will outright prefer someone with JP over Barclays, and then look at the work undertaken next

[sage hatch]

ah i see.

one final thing to ask, how would i boost my chances of receiving a grad offer after and do you happen to know how many interns are usually invited back?

[dense mesa]

For something like JP you basically stay slightly longer than your team, come in 5 days a week (if you can), work hard, build good relationships, drive impact in some way

Idk what return rates would be for them but Glasgow would hopefully be less competitive than London.

Work hard, put in the grind/hours, make sure to get your face and work seen where possible (in a good way)

Having this experience early on gives you a more reasonable chance of getting into some of the very well paying roles. FAANG won't look as attractive in comparison

[sage hatch]

ahhhh i see. thank you so much for your insight

[vapid jay]

I have design background, wondering if HTML/CSS + Python with design skills would be able to freelance market or find an entry level job somewhere.

What are your thoughts on this?

[buoyant seal]

Usually design skills, html, css are most close to modern Frontend developer role.
JavaScript/Typescript, React(Next.js)/Vue.js(Nuxt.js)/Angular

Backend frameworks/devs can do front/html/css without modern Frontend frameworks too... But it is way less common. I mean they are asked for backend skills first, working with databases. Frontend part comes as last thing for them, often enough delegated to frontend devs

[vapid jay]

So I suppose I am better off learning javascript for the rest of this year and start building front-end projects with a portfolio

[smoky quest]

In terms of career, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[vapid jay]

Yeah, I really just don't feel like going to college for a degree I may never end up using.

Especially if I can do it all self-taught and building projects/portfolio

[smoky quest]

That's entirely up to you. You can always pick far more difficult roads that are less paid and force you to work more hours.

Note also that degrees are very useful

[vapid jay]

simply cannot afford it and definitely am not going into debt in todays economy, but thats not for this discussion haha.

friend of mine recently got a degree, he's still going to be forced to move into a large city in a state such as Cali, Florida etc;

[smoky quest]

It's better to see it as an investment than a debt.
But yeah, then freelancing low pay jobs where you compete with people in low cost of living areas might be your path

[vapid jay]

Not enough job security to go into that much debt.

[buoyant seal]

Higher education helps you too train your brain towards software development. Commonly people who did it for 4 years there can easily beat online course graduates, because they just practiced it for 4 years and solved a lot of math problems with it + having far better CS degree fundamental knowledge

Consider getting education if u wish to deal with it professionally

[smoky quest]

I would disagree, but that's your choice

[vapid jay]

Ehh, i see where the mindset is currently at with this group. "Go to college or you're not gonna get anywhere". Appreciate the responses thusfar, but clearly we do not see to the same page.

I will not put myself in 4 years worth of college debt when i have seen first hand how the degree helps, as my friend is currently going through it.

[smoky quest]

I mean, that's the reality of the market.
Hope is not a strategy

[vapid jay]

I suppose I'm better off with freelance design then.

[smoky quest]

it's also a fine choice! Just a different door with different pays and opportunity. Don't expect an equivalent path

[vapid jay]

Not looking for an equiv path, looking for an opportunity with a WFH job , not going into debt and still being able to live.

i don't need 100k a year to do that, 40-50k a year is just fine. 🙂

[smoky quest]

that sounds unrealistic and not grounded in real life

[vapid jay]

how does it sound unrealistic? I've made 20k my first year freelancing starting from nothing.

many of my peers are making 60-70k a year freelancing in the design market.

[smoky quest]

There is a ceiling due to the competition. There are many uneducated other freelancers who will compete for the same freelancing opportunities than you. Some of them living in Vietnam, India or other countries where they could afford to charge below minimum wage

[smoky quest]

Congrats! If you are satisfied with that, then follow their lead

[vapid jay]

yes, and there are MANY content creators who will pay people a fair price for design work. Youtube Thumbnails especially.

It's about niching down, building a solid network and portfolio and being consistent

[dense mesa]

If you're making so much then why learn programming

[vapid jay]

Because I would have enjoyed a more structured 9-5, but i'm not willing to go into debt for that.

[smoky quest]

it's far more work than what most people do and paid multiple times less than what they make

[vapid jay]

sure, but nothing is without sacrifice, it's about choosing what is best for your position

[dense mesa]

The debt of a degree is the sacrifice

[vapid jay]

yep, and simply cannot afford to do it.

[smoky quest]

your definition of best is apparently quite different from most students anyway

[dense mesa]

But you're making 20k a year?

[vapid jay]

Starting at 20k a year, yes? I would rather wfh and take care of the people I need to take care of, than sacrificing more important things and going into debt.

[smoky quest]

debt ain't an issue when your starting salary is in the 150k

[vapid jay]

Assuming you can get a job, friend was offered starting salary of 90k a year after graduating, im not sure where you're getting your numbers

the 90k a year job required you to relocate to a very expensive part of cali too

[smoky quest]

I am getting numbers from salary data. That includes far more than just your friend 😉

[fleet reef]

Let me know when you get that high

[vapid jay]

job offers from EA and Activision, requiring relocation to very expensive areas for nowhere near the pay you're stating.

[smoky quest]

Am only a 21 years old recruiter at a tech company

[fleet reef]

damn lie

[smoky quest]

You can consult https://carta.com/friend/ as well

[summer roost]

game dev pays less than most other types of software dev, fwiw. even at $90k, though, you'd pay off your student loan debt within a handful of years. And I'm actually friends with quite a few artists, none of them make anywhere near $90k.

[smoky quest]

90k$ in the expensive parts of california would mean a serious skill issue. That's not even what people would accept for tech jobs in the expensive parts of california

[vapid jay]

yes, but I do not need 90k a year especially if i can make half that without schooling, i'd be happy. I guess some of us are willing to live for less.

i live in a rural area where 40-50k a year would let me live very comfortably

[summer roost]

the fact that you can live for much less than $90k a year is exactly why student loan debt isn't a problem once you've got a software engineering job

[vapid jay]

Yes, assuming I can get a software engineering job thats WFH and doesn't require relocation. Which is far less likely than freelancing for half the pay.

It seems we're going off the fact you're GUARANTEED a job at the end of schooling, which no one is at all and can easily take a year to get any job.

[smoky quest]

most entry level jobs will ask for relocation as they aren't trained or experienced enough to handle working remotely

[dense mesa]

You have a fairly positive outline on how easy it is to freelance it seems

[summer roost]

freelancing is not going to get you anywhere near half the pay.

[vapid jay]

I mean i'm currently freelancing so I do have a strong grasp on how it works.

[smoky quest]

No one can guarantee anything. That's not how real life works

[vapid jay]

I understand that, but i have not met anyone that graduates from college and starts making 140k

[summer roost]

ok, so I'm curious - what's your net hourly rate, after counting taxes paid and hours spent vetting clients or reviewing contracts or choosing what work to pursue, etc?

[dense mesa]

You said yourself you're in a rural area though. I'm in the UK, where salaries are way smaller, and know several people on that equivalent salary in £GBP upon graduation

[vapid jay]

but they're required to relocate which i simply am not able to do.

[dense mesa]

What? I never said anything about them having to relocate

[vapid jay]

I don't really count in the time it takes to get clients , i only really account for the time I work on the projects, and its anywhere between $20-40 an hour.

[smoky quest]

That's more likely because of your network

[vapid jay]

others have, they've stated you're not getting a WFH job because of the lack of experience and skill.

[summer roost]

so if you did count the time that it takes to get clients, how much would that cut into it? 25%? 50%? 75%?

[dense mesa]

It doesn't seem like you're here to have a constructive conversation

[vapid jay]

I definitely am, i'm just told go to college, go into debt or don't get anywhere, that doesn't seem constructive.

[vapid jay]

probably 50%? It compounds the more clients you get and more referrals you get. Stops being about looking for clients and more about raising your price so you don't have so many clients to work with. Able to do less work for same pay.

[true harness]

but that isn't a fair comparison, right?

[vapid jay]

I guess to me it seems like fair compensation? Compared to other jobs here offering $9.50 an hour at the local gas station in rural texas.

Maybe I just don't value my skills and self as highly as you value yours. I don't know, maybe it's a perspective thing.

[summer roost]

yep, I agree that it compounds. But you're saying then that you're making $10-$20 / hour now, all in, which is actually higher than I'd have guessed, but is still lower than even what a typical software engineering intern makes

[vapid jay]

I've only been doing it a year starting from scratch, so im still in some early stages of building. I would love to get a software engineering job, but my current life standings just don't allow me to make the sacrifices necessary

also speaking of carta, its telling me a design associate a the lowest company worth, makes minimum 76k a year, which definitely doesn't seem correct to me.

[smoky quest]

carta collects salary data across industries and geolocations. It's used as a source of salary when companies make offer.
So I would consider it quite representative

[fringe sphinx]

One thing to consider is adjacent tech jobs. Landing a programming job directly -might- be beyond reach (I don't know you) but QA, tech support, operations are all ways to build some experience in the industry.

[vapid jay]

this is a unique perspective I didn't think of.

[fringe sphinx]

I know many SWEs whose first job was not programming.

[summer roost]

I know a whole bunch of people who started out in QA or data analysis or operations and moved to software engineering. It's not the easiest or most paved path, but it's not uncommon

[vapid jay]

Yeah fair, not really here to argue about whats best, just want to find a road to get a WFH job in the next year, even just entry level making more than I am now.

I do love freelancing, but being your own boss and keeping track of everything is far from easy.

Guess i'm just looking for something temporary to keep me more afloat while looking towards longer goals.

[summer roost]

entry level wfh jobs are back to being very rare, fwiw. They're maybe a smidge more common than they were back before the pandemic, but they're not common

[vapid jay]

Yeah, I know. Unfortunate for me.

Living in a rural town with lack of transporation or ability to relocate hinders me greatly.

If anyone knows the Texas Panhandle knows how awful this place is to live for work if youre not in the oil industry

[summer roost]

there's some tech hubs in Texas, if you're able to move within the state

[vapid jay]

taking care of the elderly currently until they pass, unfortunately not able

not going to sacrifice the last years of family i'll never see again to chase a bag and have regrets.

It's just a me problem haha, i appreciate all the advice I was given, even if all routes lead back to school.

[summer roost]

fair enough. Well, yeah - knowledge work tends to be centered in cities, there's a lot less options in rural areas. You seem to be doing pretty well at freelancing compared to lots of people I've talked to, maybe it is the best route for you for now. There are ways to get degrees fully remote, which might be worth considering, even if it does mean you'll likely eventually need to relocate.

[vapid jay]

Yeah, im just not the best in a structured learning environment, after all I ended up dropping out of highschool and teaching myself to get my GED.

maybe if FAFSA would pay for the schooling id try it, but, I don't think id even score well on an SAT

[summer roost]

that's fair, but college is much different than high school. Lots of people who succeed at high school don't do well in college, and vice versa

[vapid jay]

I actually attended a college for my GED , it was an hour or 2 a day, but i didnt learn enough there to pass, had to study a lot on my own

[summer roost]

something like https://www.wgu.edu/online-degree-programs.html might be worth looking into.

anyway, at the high end of the skill spectrum, there's definitely a market for highly paid freelance work. There's just not much of a path to get there starting from scratch. It's hard to work your way there starting from low-paid race-to-the-bottom competition against freelancers in 3rd world countries with far lower costs of living than even your rural area

I've known highly paid freelancers, but all of them that I can recall started with 9-5 industry jobs and moved to freelancing after having already built up a decent resume

[vapid jay]

thankful the thumbnail niche isn't too hard to get into it, i know people starting 6 months ago making 2k a month, and while its not much. Its livable.

But yeah, i've done work with some cool people and creators, but unfortunately i would like more.

just want to put the $1000 macbook i invested into be put to use in some way

[fringe sphinx]

Also, oil industry uses a -lot- of tech

[vapid jay]

wait I didn't.. even think about this

refineries / oil industries pay super well as well, even down to their lowest help.

i cant remember what the person told me to learn up on to get a job in one.. i wish i could remember.

[smoky star]

How does going to a college for a GED work

And why not just do something like boot camp I don’t think a lot of schools or universities have direct entry for GED students anyways

Just do whatever u enjoy at the end of the day

Wether it’s flipping burgers or 0s and 1s

[hazy steeple]

hey, how necessary is a degree if i want to work as a programmer on python? can i get a job if i will learn everything by myself, and how dificult is it to get a job without a degree?

[fringe sphinx]

I believe most community colleges do (accept GEDs)

[true harness]

i would be very surprised if any college/university didn't accept a GED 🤔. according to the GED people, they report 98% of US colleges accept it

[fringe sphinx]

My usual answer is: it's hard to directly land a programming job without a degree (not impossible, but very hard). However, you can land an adjacent job in tech (QA, tech support, operations, IT) as an entry point and leverage that + self-study to get to your goal. Or, get lucky through networking and find someone who will give you a chance.

[fringe sphinx]

OPs comment was about direct entry vs recognizing it. I have no idea how applying to a selective university would work for a GED candidate without a Hs transcript (or community college credits)

[sullen crystal]

Hiii geeks iam new here , I want to explore and learn rust I know basics of python, java , and Little of C, am I good to go to learn rust . Also iam learning C++ for DSA ...
Hope to get the answer 🙂

[smoky star]

Would have to satisfy pre reqs for most programs even in colleges such as 12th grade math etc..

Unless there some alternative way I just hadn’t known of such

[faint merlin]

for college applications, should i continue to build my GH profile, or would it be more beneficial to try and get an internship somewhere?

i do have three years left of HS, though, so i could do both - just which should i prioritize (if at all)?

[gritty rivet]

Is an internship an option? That sounds unusual for high school but it may depend on where you are

[wind cedar]

anyone have any experience with web dev?

[gritty rivet]

You should ask your actual question. If it's not a career question, try #web-development

[faint merlin]

yeah it is in this area

[peak halo]

If you apply for a job, and another person with a degree and an internship applies for that job, you probably won't get interviewed. While getting a CS degree might sound challenging, it's probably your easiest option.

[desert spire]

I was building a vehicle monitoring project in python. And was struggling to find suitable datasets for the project. If I were to ask this question in the help chat, what category should I tag it in? Others?
Or is it not something I should ask in this server at all? 🫠

[fringe sphinx]

Don't worry too much about the tag. Pick whatever seems closest. And, #python-discussion is the better place to start (this is careers)

[desert spire]

My bad. Thanks man! ✌🏻

[hazy steeple]

so the biggest problem is to get the first job?

[smoky quest]

Job ads get thousands of applications, most of which from people with relevant degrees, great internships and awesome projects.
So you have to have a plan to stand out, otherwise you won't make it to the list of people being called back.

That's also why a CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[fringe sphinx]

I agree with ^. And: That's probably the biggest problem, for sure. Not the only problem, but the biggest.

[eager jay]

I believe that revitalizing my Python experience would help me in the long run to either help with a job or just another add on skill for a job not in tech. What would be the most effective resource(s) to catch up to date with it from what I previously did to be with today’s Python? I studied Python 3.8 back in like 2019.

[fringe sphinx]

#python-discussion is an incredible resource, if you spend a few weeks here, you'll learn quite a lot. Second, look at the release notes for 3.9 through 3.12, and either look at the docs or PEPs for each feature. And, check out conference talks (europython and PyCon): there's lots of cutting edge talks

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2Uw4_HvXqvYhjub9bw4uDAmNtprgAvlJ&feature=shared

[prime parrot]

Do you all have like a background in IT, or does some of you come from different areas?

[smoky quest]

you will find people with many different backgrounds

[prime parrot]

So like in IT, do many people come form different jobs?

[smoky quest]

There are many different types of jobs in IT itself, so sure

[prime parrot]

I already saw, that you guys said that a degree and internships are impotent for jobs, but you just said that not everyone has that, right?

[smoky quest]

It's like saying "I want to work at a hospital".
You will find all sorts of people in a hospital, from the neurosurgeon to the janitor or nurses. And they all work in a hospital. The neurosurgeon will be the one with the degree and the janitor the one without a degree. They both work in a hospital, but do not have the same opportunities or compensation

If you are in HS/college age, just go for a degree. Foregoing a degree will be the best way to fuck up your life

[prime parrot]

Sorry for asking, you don't need to answer, but do you have one?

[smoky quest]

yeah

[prime parrot]

CS?

[smoky quest]

yeah

[hearty totem]

It also depends on age. Most people still working in IT in their late 50s will not have a CS degree. CS degrees were rare when they went to uni

Also, most mathematicians and physicist end up in "some form of" IT

[brave matrix]

guys give me some feedback, I'm looking for a job in NYC, backend or data engineering

[hushed falcon]

maybe a section on education? high school, uni / college etc

[brave matrix]

I'm self taught and I didnt go to uni. altough I did a data science bootcamp (6 month) but from my experience its not valued much

[near ocean]

This is not a help channel

[wanton idol]

ah. i m really sorry for that.😔

[true harness]

late 50s means like 1980-1990 at school? cs was not rare at that point

[cerulean basin]

anyone?

i see! is there any platform where i can apply for worldwide remote based internship, so that i can work in the industry. I know about linkedin but its already crowded, so its hard for freshers!

also @turbid bobcat you are also in the domain of ML, personally would u like to suggest me something which can bring me a lead over others in this domain :D

thanks in advance

[cerulean basin]

alright! thanks for your insights.
But i would like to know that how can i gain professional XP, coz for it i need to get hired, would you like to suggest something to land my first internship or anything else?

is there any place to find. these small sized startups and reach them out

[cerulean basin]

Alright thanks! Ill look into it

[gritty rivet]

In the US at least, there is Y Combinator, Wellfound, etc.

But the idea of someone getting hired internationally without experience in this market is basically impossible. I would focus your search locally

[grave torrent]

I suppose it depends on what sort of job you want. I've been involved in the hiring process many times, and a strong grounding in computer science fundamentals is almost always desired (except for say a position as QA or a build engineer). One can certainly learn the language on their own, that's the easy part. Learning CS knowledge and ideas idependently without a directed course of study is more difficult but may be doable for some people. A directed course of study doesn't always mean a college degree, but that's the way I did it. The more advanced you want to be, the more you'll have had to already learn up front before getting the job.

[manic smelt]

Hey

[grave torrent]

Also I can tell you from my experience, learning on the job is a myth. Everyone (who is in software) needs to be constantly learning while working, that's true. But the idea that you will be trained in unfamiliar topics by the people you work with is not born out by my experience.

[manic smelt]

I was wondering how I should approach my second year of engineering

Is there anyone who has studied various concepts and can provide me with a roadmap on how to go ahead with research papers, hackathons, extra curriculars, GPAs and stuff?

I wanna learn enough so that I can get a good internship

at the end of second year

[peak halo]

Keep your GPA above 3. That's often the floor for getting into grad school, and you want to keep your options open.
The rest of your question depends on your goals. If you want to be a software engineer, there are more relevant things you could be doing than research papers. But if you want to be an AI/ML engineer, then doing research would be a great asset.

[manic smelt]

I am doing a degree with AIML Specialization, what would you suggest then?

I am ready to do what it takes, I just need to know what I need to get done to work at the top companies as an intern at the end of the year

[peak halo]

See what research professors in your department take on undergrads, and if there's one who's work relates to your interests, work on whatever projects they have available.

that's what I did, and that's how I was able to get a job in AI without a masters.

[peak halo]

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that you need to work at a """top""" company. There are a lot of things to consider: salary, benefits, work/life balance, work satisfaction. High-profile companies aren't necessarily going to be the best for all these parameters. They might even be the worst for some of them.

[manic smelt]

Oh okayy

[manic smelt]

Do you have any courses that you followed, I don't know where to start

[peak halo]

I did a CS degree with the data science specialization. And I had been a linguistics student before that.

[manic smelt]

We have Python, DSA with Java, computer operating system and mathematics as subjects in the university

[peak halo]

those are all required, are they not?

[manic smelt]

Yes

Where do I start?

[peak halo]

Look at which courses require which and come up with an ordering that "unlocks" courses

[manic smelt]

So, I look into courses and then first study the pre requisites to complete that.

What would you suggest to start off with then? AI theory?

[peak halo]

look at all the courses your program requires and make a graph like this

so that you can visualize which courses require which

[manic smelt]

Ohh okayyy

[peak halo]

if this were a real program, it would take at least four semesters, because every path to F is at least four steps deep

[manic smelt]

one last thing, I heard that we should actively hold a portfolio, code on various sites to improve problem solving, attend hackathons, write research papers and make projects to add to your github profile, Does this work?

[peak halo]

as an undergrad, you'd be lucky to get one research paper out. But of all the things you listed, that would be the most effective thing.
I'm not sure how much weight a hackathon has on a resume. I imagine it's only worth mentioning if you win.
Different employers will also have different opinions about github projects. My boss only considers github projects that were part of an "official" thing (like a university-run project; ie, not personal projects).

[manic smelt]

Noted.

I will keep the research paper up on the priority list then.

[delicate swift]

I've been slaving away on hackathons for a while. It's not only an interesting way of acquiring something noteworthy to show off to recruiters, but some are a great experience of how teamwork under pressure goes

Some, not all though. Pretty fun experience

[fringe sphinx]

Hey, an F is always one step away 🙂

[digital fjord]

Isn't it possible to request bypassing a prerequisite if you have a history of excellent academic results?

[fringe sphinx]

My caution here is: if you're just starting, focus on skills over portfolio. Portfolio should happen as a side effect of working in interesting learning projects.

[fringe sphinx]

I believe it depends on school... But generally would be up to dept head. I know two local schools that make all prerequisites optional

[frosty token]

oops wrong chanell

[fringe sphinx]

!warn 1232318330879086652 Advertisements and recruiting are not allowed on this server.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @cinder jasper.

[glacial ice]

the thing is that i wanna apply to a small company for the python dev role (side by side learn ai nd ml) so making python projects is kinda compulsory for me so ain't getting which projects to do so i can start applying

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe start with sharing your anonymized resume? What experience or education do you have? What other projects have you done? Etc?

[glacial ice]

just passed out 12th going to clg this yr nd did no projects till now (need reccomendations for that)

[fringe sphinx]

My usual advice: for a beginner, breadth is more important than depth. Start with simple projects (rock paper scissors, a web page, a game). Pick topics you know the least about.

!kin is a list of project ideas

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[glacial ice]

sure! thnx

[undone dust]

Hey there! I'm thinking of learning Machine learning for my future business, I want to make an AI that can help in market research and open up a market research firm. The main problem is whether I should start learning about ML or entrepreneurship. I'm thinking about getting a bachelor's degree in ML and a Masters in business or something similar to that so I can have some business knowledge. Right now I'm in 10th grade.

[fringe sphinx]

My son is planning to dual major in CS and finance (but might switch to business entrepreneurship, his school has a track for that)

I've known a lot of CS ppl to get MBAs if they're on a mgmt track

[fringe sphinx]

My advice would be to learn a little of both, rather than a lot of one.

[cerulean basin]

alright! thanks for the suggestion :D

[vapid jay]

Hey all. I am looking to have a career in Software Engineer. I have a B.S. in a STEM degree which is nice. I just need to build my skills and a portfolio haha.

[undone dust]

👍

[smoky star]

Americaa, fuck yeah

[vapid jay]

lmao

[smoky star]

Ur supposed to get the skills in school

[junior hornet]

Quite in a similar situation with Cypherium and was wondering if there is a list of certs someone would recommend or sent me to (Discord, PM, links) that would bolster my resume.

IoT and Mechanical Engineering background, if that helps further narrowimg down the recommendations.

[fringe sphinx]

Certs aren't the way for programming jobs. Code. A lot. Do interesting things.

[fringe sphinx]

With an iot/me background, I imagine there's many interesting projects you could work on that teach you new topics. When you're 'good', maybe look to contribute to an OSS project in your field.

[junior hornet]

Thank you. I will try to contribute to some OSS project. I got a little insecure because of so many positions asking for a CS degree or Masters degree. I got a Master's degree, but it's in an economic tangential field.

[fringe sphinx]

Embrace that. Tangential fields are how you differentiate yourself.

Economics? Do you know how useful that is for fintech jobs?

[smoky quest]

You can look at it as a distance function. The further away, the more costly.
So you might also want to look at areas that combine your existing education as a way to give you better leverage

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe tell us more about your degrees and xp?

[junior hornet]

I am grateful for the trust, but I have this fear that someone with more experience might bring faster results. I will try to hone my CS, selfthaught, while also trying to find mixtures of domains.

[smoky quest]

That's the point of combined areas. They may be stronger in CS but you might be stronger in other areas that matter as well.
Coding is a mean to an end, not an end in itself

[junior hornet]

Currently 28 yrs old. Did some marketing gigs, not big, this would round up to barely 1 year of experience. Then produced CADs for different components, 1.5 years. Last job was a mess, like my resume is, with the pos being assistant manager, but I did almost everything there (accounting, IoT and embedded devices troubleshooting, Linux usage, Python and JS for interfaces (1 year). It's messy, and I feel like I wasted time tbh.

[fringe sphinx]

What's your degrees in?

[junior hornet]

Mechanical Engineering with Economics training, with a Masters in Mechanical Engineering Entreprenourship.

Basically the worst kind of Jack of all Trades. I know a lot, but need training in many areas. My passion was webdev, which helped with the last job, but it's all selfthaught. No degree or paper trail.

[brazen island]

How urgent is your job search?

[fringe sphinx]

That's cool, embrace that... don't run from it! Longer term: If you want to get good: hang out in #python-discussion and try to learn from the conversations. Do projects that force you to learn: breadth is important. Watch conference talks (europython/pycon) to broaden your exposure.

[junior hornet]

The sooner the better. Got friends and family support, which is nice, but I don't take as warranted.

[brazen island]

Oh you don't have a job right now?

[junior hornet]

No.

Left the IoT stuff because I was wearing too many hats, with no training and very low salary. Had differences with the manager, and I saw no growth in that company.

[brazen island]

From what you wrote you have enough skills to get a job. Seems like a well rounded skillset. In the medium term I'd focus on being able to demonstrate your skills (e.g., having things deployed, GitHub, ...)

Not having a CS degree isn't a death sentence. I have a (slightly) unrelated MSc but nobody bats an eye

[smoky quest]

fyi, in the future, secure jobs before quitting. It makes things easier

[junior hornet]

I will take all of these points from all of you, thank you for assistance and encouragement.

[brazen island]

That's the best advice here. What's done is done but you put yourself in an annoying situation. Not the end of the world though, just means you should probably be a bit less picky for the next role

Also, focus on getting a referral from someone you know personally. My friend from Mexico got a referral for a job in Europe from a friend living in the Dominican Republic. It sounds stupid but someone that can vouch for your abilities can go a very very long way.

[smoky quest]

or your previous coworkers. References don't always have to come from the EM

[junior hornet]

You are absolutely correct. It was something more based on impulse, still a mistake, but let's say some of our collaborators at my old job made working there stressfully mentally, so I decided on a whim to hand in my resignation. Still stayed the month after closing loose ends, which the manager appreciated and compensated, but it was after a long and well known string of issues I tried pointing out, never got listened to.

[smoky quest]

Sure, you should always protect yourself first.

But when it comes to impulses:

• You are only punishing yourself
• When you leave, don't be a dick. It only reinforces their thoughts that they are glad you are leaving. Last impressions matter
• When you leave, your impact goes far beyond the people you had conflict with

[junior hornet]

Right, no bridges burnt. I will be looking elsewhere though, as IoT isn't for me.

[smoky quest]

That's fair.
You don't have to stick to any industry.

[cinder fossil]

one of my friends is earning shittons because his company does 1.5x salary for overtime

he just works 12 hour days and effectively earns twice his original salary as a result lol. although his boss is on his ass for it lately since my friend is low-key earning more than his boss now thanks to that

it is exceptionally rare. and they often expect you to like.. not abuse it

friend only got away with it since his contract was relatively short term (under 6mo but idk specifics)

probably just expecting growth

[true harness]

if you're paid a certain amount, then you have a certain amount of budget to pay you. if you constantly get paid overtime, then you're going over budget

[cinder fossil]

mhm. only thing I should add is another reason that was so rare is because my friend was working for a multi manager hedge fund and his team did profit share, so their salary primarily came from a portion of what they earned trading

so, fairly unique circumstances compared to most companies id imagine

[near ocean]

When do you think they're gonna drop "family" on you

[quasi lake]

Sent out my first software engineer applications tonight

[smoky quest]

Hi!
We don't do recruitment on this server. See the channel header

[quasi lake]

Ya boi put in two applications for Vidya companies and an app for Microsoft... 🤞

[kindred oyster]

<@&831776746206265384>

[wary drum]

should i study to be fullstack or software enginner or something else ?
what is the highest paying it's my 2nd year in cs and im considered good in it we already learned (html, css, js , python , php and mysql)

[smoky quest]

There is no such thing as "highest paying". There are way too many factors at play.
Look at the job ads for your are and the salary they offer.

As a rule of thumb, if bootcamps and self learners are your competition, they won't be the highest paying

[smoky quest]

And note that doing something you enjoy can help yielding a better career. Because you are more interested and passionate, you will go deeper, which means you will go further

[wary drum]

alright thank you

[woeful vapor]

hello!! how is everyone 😃

[fringe sphinx]

!warn 974448061080281168 We don't allow advertising, or recruiting or anything like this

[inner wren]

:ok_hand: applied warning to @pearl cipher.

[fringe sphinx]

See above

[regal axle]

Statement from someone else in another server. If anyone has any good answers

Hey everyone! I'm graduating [from college] in Spring 2025 and I'm interested in Machine Learning, Backend Development, VR/AR as well. I haven't had much internship experience besides a non-tech one. I'm planning on doing a lot more projects, hackathons, strengthening research projects, etc. Is there specific places I should start thinking about applying to?

I mean, I partially think that they should focus on more zeroing in on what they actually want to do. But they still have time, so idk that I want to discourage exploration of a bunch of topics

[quasi lake]

Understand. Didn't realize follow-for-follow was considered advertising.

[fringe sphinx]

I'm not sure zeroing in is a fruitful strategy: it's not like you really can pick the type of job you get. I lean towards broad preparation (engineering skills, projects in a few domains, cross domain learning, etc) rather than specialization.... I accept that specialization is good for -some- people who have a passion, but breadth at the undergrad/first job level is more important to me

[regal axle]

Yes; sorry, let me clarify my stance. The individual is super early days and each field they have interest in, has massive complex learning curves. You will end up spending a lot more time getting over those hurdles, than just learning general broad, proper engineering preparation.

[fringe sphinx]

But if you're (they're) graduating in a year... that means this summer and two semesters to go... which means they're applying to jobs in a few months. There's no real time to leap over a complex learning curve that takes a few years to master.

[regal axle]

In my experience, it is far easier to tackle large learning curves when you have more experience going past one to a high degree. And not just introductory levels. And they do not have that depth yet in any field.
But again, I kinda want to just focus on their statement without any of my biases. Hence why I am cross posting. I feel like my response would be far too biased and potentially "bad".

[fringe sphinx]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. My view is; achieving strong coding and problem solving skills, and a breadth of foundational knowledge, will make it far easier to master a highly technical skill later. I think many people are deep diving into ML topics without a strong coding background, which leads to inability to get anything meaningful done.

[regal axle]

I agree with you. I think we are agreeing, just in slightly different angles.

[pearl cipher]

sry about that 🥲

[north wagon]

Where are you guys from?

If anyone is from US DM me

[pearl cipher]

Hello, I'm a 4-semester computer science major student and I am currently researching on knowledge tree and writing code in the fields of machine vision and prediction.

1. I wanted to know if you suggest using LLMs (such ChatGPT or Gemini) for high level programming?
2. And what is the most important thing to apply to a university with a high academic level (for a master's degree)?

[fringe sphinx]

If you want to "get good", then don't use GPT. It's a crutch that prevents you from learning valuable coding and problem solving skills.

Sure, it might help you finish a project... but would you want a doctor who had someone else complete their internship?

[pearl cipher]

no of course 😂

[fringe sphinx]

2. In terms of "most important thing". Who knows. Superlatives are impossible to answer. There's many important things.

[quasi lake]

ChatGPT can code?

[fringe sphinx]

GPT can often come up with examples of code, similar to google and stackoverflow. It's a handy tool, but often wrong and not good for beginners.

[quasi lake]

Oh, word. I guess you learn something new everyday.

It helps me with analytical chemistry but I've never asked about code.

[fringe sphinx]

Or, do you think you'd get stronger if you went to the gym and paid someone to lift the weights? Same idea.

[pearl cipher]

thank you so much

[fringe sphinx]

Now, to be honest, I often use GPT as a search engine... like how I'd use Google. But, I'm using it for an idea... or to help narrow a search query, I still go to a primary source to read about the topic.

[pearl cipher]

But do you have any advice about my second question?

[fringe sphinx]

My masters was many many years ago. I really don't know what makes for a good masters application.

[pearl cipher]

GPT can be useful for learning, if you use it for learning

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno... if you're asking GPT to summarize information for you, you're often getting terrible answers. It'll use some very terrible sources to answer things and draw conclusions.

One specific query I had, it gave an answer that was supported by a single reddit post.

[pearl cipher]

I think that with the passage of time, these language models will be better and more accurate

[fringe sphinx]

They're useful, they're just not "thinking"... which is totally OK. Watch this great video, it's a wonderful perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipRvjS7q1DI

[pearl cipher]

sure, thanks for sharing

[quasi lake]

AI sure has come a long way since the days of Akinator!

[fringe sphinx]

That seems quite useless, tbh.

In fact, it looks like a copy from the first google hit: https://yoodli.ai/blog/acing-the-google-interview-process-tips-common-questions

Oh, that's an AI page, so it's also just a circular thing

https://mconsultingprep.com/google-interview-process-questions perhaps

The dangerous part about that answer is: it misses all the context that this last link has: the last link explains that there's multiple phases to the interview/etc.

[dapper bane]

@turbid bobcat wdy think bro Why should you be hired for this role? I have completed internships in full stack development, focusing on Django, Docker, React Native, and React. Additionally, I pursue game development as a hobby, having created projects such as those available [here](https://needjob-coder.itch.io/mazegameconcept). I have also worked on cybersecurity-related projects and made significant contributions in this area at previous organizations. In my professional experience, I developed an anti-cheat system for an application and created multiple Slack bots to report errors from test and production environments. I discovered an SSH brute force vulnerability and reverse-engineered an application to identify exposed API keys, which I promptly reported to the team. Furthermore, I devised a method for secure image uploads by removing metadata to mitigate security risks and identified a potential malware entry vulnerability in the backend server via image uploads. I also deployed websites to AWS and built CI/CD pipelines to enhance the efficiency and reliability of the deployment process.

it looks whack man

[kindred oyster]

(imo having links like needjob-coder etc dont make much of a positive impression )

[dapper bane]

shit that was the itch link

[kindred oyster]

also what is the position for ? like web dev ?

[dapper bane]

full stack mobile development i dont think i can change the name that lemme see

does my contributions look whack too ?

probably both

i think first the hr will see

i think the hr will like then the real game begins when the technical guy sees this

[kindred oyster]

also why is the flow like

• i interened using xyz technologies about web dev
• i do game dev as hobby , here is a link to it
• in my internship i worked on this thing

the flow doesnt seem right , first explain the internship , keep hobby for last

[dapper bane]

I thought first part must be introductory and second part my contributions

I was supposed to send plain text message

oh that is actually itch.io
its a platform to share and sell games

[kindred oyster]

well for me it doesnt seem right
if i heard about an internship , i wanna know about it first. we can come to your side , hobby projects later

just like how you explain in a resume

[dapper bane]

no u dont understand it is someone elses website I just uploaded my web version of my game like steam

that is way too time consuming also i ll have to maintain the website too and code the logic and this is free too completely I might even get paid a little if I post aart assets here which i did

what r u talking about every1 knows about itch

[shell flume]

yeah but employers are weary of talk the talk.... so they see if your github project work aligns with linkidin profiles

[dapper bane]

u never did game dev did u ?

[shell flume]

few here who does game dev

[dapper bane]

github is already linked where I applied in the platform

I dont get its itch.io that every1 uses possiblely all game jams or game hackathons are hosted here

that is an already an industrial level website

i dont get u it is the standard for uploading games when game hackathons are contested

thats like the facbook of games

[shell flume]

oh yeah that would be a sure bet... like custom tensor flow ... inceptionV3 for example that looks at celebrity faces and predicts which video games they like to play .... based on a DB that looks for key words in twitter feeds

[dapper bane]

but i ll try to change my name

from needjobcoder to something else

[shell flume]

whats a name

your cover letter

[dapper bane]

wdym

[shell flume]

your linkidin github repos is where they go to immediately... see how complex your java is in correlation to flask/FASTapi/django

maybe you use configuration tools... they'll be interested in that.. but more that your using docker etc

... such as. i'm uploading files ... chapter 7 or somthing... regarding .[Tutsgalaxy.com] - Python REST APIs with Flask Docker MongoDB and AWS DevOps

or stacks like. Devops Fundamentals- CICD with AWS +Docker+Ansible+Jenkins

be your own boss if no one hires you... sub contract work directly

[dapper bane]

my github is already linked

also I cannot just show my projects that I am working on for my current company

[shell flume]

NDA gag order... i mean i don't know where your applying

[dapper bane]

I am applying to full stack developmet job and a full stack mobile development job

[white relic]

Real talk: Nobody is going to look at those projects before you have already passed the hr screen and are in the phone/in-person interview part of the process, if they ever do at all.
You can and should put in your résumé stuff you are working on in your current position. Just because you cannot link to a github repo or talk about proprietary aspects of the project does not make it invalid experience or mean you can't use it to demonstrate skills.

[shell flume]

https://youtu.be/C8YtdC8mxTU?si=NLmXoAz6A4ip6i0X

you can tell i dont build video games

[hazy steeple]

what are good universities i can go to if i want to study computer science

[pine sleet]

any accredited institution is good. certain ones will have better connections, networks, etc

but for the most part it isn't as important as having a cs degree

[smoky quest]

congrats!

[woeful cedar]

anyone hiring?

[smoky quest]

there are plenty of people hiring, even during summer

[woeful cedar]

I've applied to 444 jobs since feb... got 9 interviews... only 3 went to final round. then didnt get it.

[vapid jay]

hiring really depends on luck and cv

[smoky quest]

Where do you feel you are having issues?

[vapid jay]

and what jobs you apply

[smoky quest]

and feel free to post an anonymized version of your resume

[woeful cedar]

not sure tbh probably a lot of things. okay I'll see if I can an anonymized version and post it later.

[mossy stag]

what code language should I learn? I dont want you to say "if you want to make games you should learn that if you want to make websites..." Im asking what would probably be good in the future? like web develompent game development data science...

I dont want to regret what I did so Im asking from the start which programming language should I focus on?

[fringe sphinx]

You have many good choices. Python is the most popular, and the first language in most Universities nowadays, so you can't go wrong choosing Python.

Plus, https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-top-programming-languages-2023

[mossy stag]

Im learning python but what speciality should I focus on? like game develompents web develompent...

Im doing random things to learn more like fahrenheit to celcius things over and over again what should I do as a "real thing"

[fringe sphinx]

You shouldn't focus on a specialty. You should learn a little about a lot. Do a game project, and a web project, and a data project.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QxI-RP6-HM

[gritty rivet]

Which "real thing" do you want to do? Nobody can answer that for you.

[steel marsh]

[mossy stag]

that was enough for my all questions you know...thanks for the answer

[hazy steeple]

what does a degree gives to you, like it’s to get the first job or in future it will help you

[smoky quest]

It gives you an education, skills, a professional network, and the opportunity to discover things you don't even know exist

[meager gulch]

Hey guys can i be hired if decide to specialise in just python automations ?

[fringe sphinx]

Deciding the specialize is different than 'this is all you know'.

[fringe sphinx]

What's your background? Education and experience?

[meager gulch]

Just a beginner in python programming but i love automation more so i wanted to focus on it only.
Also
I am into e commerce and social media marketing

[fringe sphinx]

Are you in University?

[meager gulch]

Not yet i will be enrolling next year

[fringe sphinx]

Ok, great, because that'd be my first advice!

[fringe sphinx]

What do you mean by 'automation'? It means basically same as programming

[meager gulch]

Okay

[meager gulch]

Like automating repetitive tasks

[fringe sphinx]

Yup, you'll need to learn more than one thing to become a professional software engineer, but for now, as long as you're coding/learning, you're on the right path

[meager gulch]

Thank you 🙏 , this has encouraged me

[fringe sphinx]

The hardest thing in learning is motivation. If you're motivated by something, you'll get good at it

[meager gulch]

Also i don’t want to become like a pro pro programmer i just want to be able to write codes that would automate the boring stuffs 😂 that is why i was asking

[meager gulch]

For sure 💯

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, what major / degree are you planning to do?

[haughty root]

What are you interested in or think is cool?

[molten parcel]

See which one u like and focus on that

[robust atlas]

is it legal to get reviews for the app by using bots?

[plucky shuttle]

Is python good if i pursue accounting? If not whats the best programming language for an accountant

[mossy stag]

the problem is I think creating something usable by typing is cool and thats the whole programming I dont have a special request I can do anything in programming and still get fun it doesn't matter so I tried to ask you guys to decide what to do now I understand doing one speciality isn't good and knowing more than one is important for a career but what specilizations are these "more than one"s I just know "start with python" and "learn c++" thats it when I do these I wont have anything to do and I dont even know what to do with c++ even if I learn it its much easier to learn code languages but its hard to doing something I know you guys say "do the thing you like" but imagine I like music and I want something to make it listen easier the thing I like is music but the thing I should do is a discord music bot so thats not about music(the thing I like) thats about discord bots thats the problem @haughty root @molten parcel

sorry if it was too long

[twilit portal]

I'm not sure what your question is exactly. Knowing the fundamentals of python will help you create usable things in the future.
Do you want to get started on useful projects faster and are looking for recommendations?

[regal axle]

If your goal is to be an accountant who knows some programming; python is a good language. Likely is the "best" for this situation

[regal axle]

Yes, the goal "learn X" can be vauge and unhelpful. You will naturally learn things by doing things. Becuase to do Y, you must learn X.
There are a lot of things you can do with music. Like learning how to generate music or learning how to compress it or transform it. You don't have to focus on something like a discord bot. You can do little random things.
The start is definitly the hardest part. When you start, you will have few to no ideas about what to make. But as you make more things, you will have more ideas. But that doesn't mean it is easy. And it is even harder to just tell someone an idea of what to make. But we can at least try to guide you into a way of thinking / looking, so you can discover what you like on your own

[uncut sun]

I'd guess an accountant would mostly be excel based, so you probably want a bit of VBA for macros though iirc python in excel is also an option, and might be handy for doing things that are more complicated than vlookups etc

[weary field]

Hi 👋. I'm new here.
I'd also love some recommendations on some useful, creative project ideas. ☺

[weary field]

I definitely agree with this statement.

[uncut sun]

I've already seen a rec for https://exercism.org/tracks/python/exercises which has a number of small projects by difficulty, otherwise it's just a case of looking at what's fun for you/annoying to you and doing something to play with or fix that.

Like my local public transport app is a bit annoying but has an API, I could write a page which tells me "When's the next (relevant bus) at my local stop" without requiring 5 clicks. Or for a game I play, I wanted to see if a particular colour was in any of a set of swatches, so broke those down into hexcodes and cycled through looking at distance between points to get ones which matched or were close enough they'd probably look similar to humans and then showed the results.

[slender sorrel]

Do somoene know what video can help me to create an dashboard on discord.py?

Do somoene know what video can help me to create an dashboard on discord.py?

[azure heart]

This is not the place to ask this question, and please don't spam your message. You can ask in #python-discussion or open a help thread #❓｜how-to-get-help

[hearty field]

You can also try asking this in #discord-bots if the problem is related to Bot (since you are using the discord.py library)

[quasi scaffold]

hlo

how can i make money using python

[digital fjord]

The most straightforward way is employment

[quasi scaffold]

too young for that

[near ocean]

How young

[quasi scaffold]

17

[near ocean]

Theres other jobs you can do if you want spending money, they wont have to do with python

[cloud flint]

17 is not too young

[quasi scaffold]

i mean no buddy hiring a 17 year old

[cloud flint]

If you're a talented 17 year old, I don't see why you can't get a job

[quasi scaffold]

i see

[near ocean]

People arent hiring 17yos with no degree or experience to write python code

[quasi scaffold]

true

no degree but experienced in python

[near ocean]

Experienced means someone paid you to write code
Learning python in your spare time is not the experience the way employers mean

[quasi scaffold]

okk

any advice where to start?

[near ocean]

Non-tech jobs, pc repair if you have a shop near, family business if you have one
Otherwise practice as much as you can and go get a degree

[quasi scaffold]

okk thanks will see if any works

[wind mauve]

im literally about to pick my GCSE

should i pick Computer-science

help

[regal axle]

Yes to those applications but it isn’t a local only thing. A lot of people use it with some google collab notebooks. Get that cloud compute.
I think it’s a little silly to focus on Jupyter, but I’ve dealt with people who primarily wrote scripts through it.

[wheat carbon]

@normal tangle we can discuss here

[fringe sphinx]

Oh there's a lot of nuance. The internals of it are, for lack of a better word, whack.

Some orgs have extensive tooling and applications built on Jupyter. I've done some of this, I'm not a huge fan but it's a market.

[vapid jay]

lol

[twilit portal]

Do you think someone would be hireable to build that kind of tooling in those orgs? If you had solid programming fundamentals plus some understanding of the data analysis they do

[fringe sphinx]

No idea... but in specialized roles like that, I'd imagine being a contributor to a project in that ecosystem would be one way for a resume to standout

Anything here would be especially helpful: https://numfocus.org/sponsored-projects/?_sft_project_category=python-interface

[twilit portal]

Thank you!

[undone dust]

I'm stuck. I can't decide which bachelor's degree to pursue. I plan to start a business in the future in market research consultancy. I'm considering pursuing a degree in Machine Learning, but on the other hand, I'm also interested in Finance. I think a degree in Machine Learning could help me get a job ASAP rather than a finance. And my family background is not so strong financially.

Right now I'm in 10th grade.

[fringe sphinx]

What country?

[undone dust]

India

[vapid jay]

are tu pelhe jee clear kar

[fringe sphinx]

I'm in US, so can't speak for India. But, I think general advice still applies: Spend this year learning about both. Talk to people in your country who work in each field and learn from their experience.

Getting a job "ASAP" is an unhelpful constraint, since you still need to go to Uni, nor is your families financial situation: since a degree in either subject is likely going to cost you/them the same.

[undone dust]

Isn't it too hard? And consume a lot of time.

I have an idea better than clearing Jee adv, practising Cs problems and learning about it deeply and going with a tier 2-3 college by Jee Mains. It won't take long to clear JEE don't you think? Or just apply abroad and so many colleges provide financial aid.

[vapid jay]

it is, and yeah it's worth it and the best option available in india

[fringe sphinx]

If going abroad is an option, then there's a lot of other options.

[undone dust]

Yep

[vapid jay]

to be honest, T2 or T3 won't take you anywhere unless you have skills

[potent valley]

Hello, I'm from India. I'm stuck on how to learn programming. I want to become a back-end developer, but I don't know how to start it. This is my final year of college, so I want to learn programming and be able to land a job before the end of college. I want a path so I can move to the USA as a developer in future. Please help me. (sorry for bad English)

[loud berry]

Btw guys, I can centre a div

[bleak spoke]

does this hold true for the Uk market? I am located in London and was tryna see if apprenteships for programming may have been a good option. anyone know about that? I don't like the idea of university with getting into debt. Right now Im just a beginner self teaching with 'automate the boring stuff' though. Im not sure what specifically I should go into when it comes to python. I do think game dev seems quite interesting though

[mystic walrus]

heyy, does anyone know about any courses i can do since im done with the first year of uni and im hbaving vacations atm, so are there any free courses that i can get a certificate for? (im doing computer science btww)

[fringe sphinx]

My opinion: don't think about specializing. Diverse skills is the key. Do a game. And a web app. And a data/ML project. Etc. learn about ci/cd. Learn a little Linux. Learn a little cloud. Etc

I don't know UK apprenticeships, my comment is just on avoiding trying to specialize early just for the sake of a first job: since you can't predict what skills the job will need

(Specializing because of genuine interest/passion is different)

[bleak spoke]

Ok thank you. I think I'll continue reading 'automate the boring stuff' and work at some pygame too. I'm interested in all of it but I think game dev is most interesting rn

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, makes sense at the beginner phase. Once you're through that, then maybe come here and ask about next steps.

Or #python-discussion

[gritty rivet]

Nobody cares about certificates when it comes to programming.... What do you want to build? Focus your learning on that. There are endless free resources for learning, the problem is deciding what is going to be most engaging to you personally.

For a basic general survey, CS50 from Harvard stands out. For web development, a lot of people like Project Odin.

[bleak spoke]

well idrk when I can count myself as 'out of beginner' XD but I think I'll do that after I've finished automate the boring stuff

[fringe sphinx]

That's probably a good start. The test is when you can do simple projects. Another test are these problems: https://inventwithpython.com/pythongently/

[undone dust]

Yeah, that's also but my main focus is entrepreneurship. I want to start a market research consultancy.

[twilit portal]

What's T2 and T3 in this context? Can't find anything relevant on Google

[vapid jay]

Tier 2 & Tier 3 colleges in India

[vapid jay]

As you said your financial status isn't that strong, I may suggest you to just grind hard for your JEE, I myself completed my 12th this year & Joined a T3 college in my locality. I tell you here you won't get the exposure you get in a T1 college, and that's needed to outstand in your field, also keep one thing in mind that most of the students from IIT pursue their career as a entrepreneur rather than a B-Tech programmer at the end, so I would only tell you to focus on JEE for now, as you're in the 10th standard, you have much more time than me to grasp knowledge, and if you get into IIT, I assure you you'll get the exposure & knowledge you need. Also let me tell you that getting into a T2 college comes with a high amount of educational fees (If you don't get a merit seat) , so the best thing you can do to yourself & your parents is get into a T1, because they don't have any fees, they only take in Merit students.

You'll save like 15-20K$ , if you outstand in JEE

[undone dust]

Great advice 👍

[fringe sphinx]

My two cents: talk to professionals who are working in the industry, not just fellow students. You may hear very different perspectives.

Family friends are a good place to start

[regal axle]

Man, writing job app emails is rough. I never know how much to talk about myself or the company. Do I butter up the company? Or just get right into. The balance is annoying becuase you know nothing about the person who is reading it. You don't know their style and what they like

[gritty rivet]

Less is more. Cut right to it.

[regal axle]

I mean yea. Generally that is how I roll too. But becuase I send "less", the few words I do say better matter. The hard part of this whole process is the lack of feedback loop. I have no way of gauging how successful anything I do is. I only know that something at some point didn't work (due to a blanket rejection) or something did work due to moving on to the next steps.

[hearty island]

what are job app emails? like cold emails?

[regal axle]

Nah, I have been going through HN and some of the people post an option to email them. I always prefer that over sending it into an HR void. Well, I make the call based on the situation at least

[hearty island]

HN?

[regal axle]

Hacker news. They do a monthly "Who is hiring" post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40846428

[hearty island]

ohh, i had no idea

[regal axle]

Also, I find that some of these companies have strange generic application embed stuff. Sometimes too overly generic where it doesn't make sense for the position. And for those, I always like to skip that pipeline and just get to the front of the line. Becuase who knows if they equally have a silly filter setup on said generic questions

[faint depot]

Bit late to the party. Ive applied to a bt apprenticeship (as well as an engineering apprenticeship) and the plan is, get a higher enough grade overall and apply to another company to do a degree apprenticeship. Dropped out of uni btw

[faint depot]

Btw also in the same boat. Got back to programming since dropping a year ago, still very much a beginner as Idk wtf to focus on 😂. Right now, working on using python with sql to focus more on data analysis. Going to try a hand at cybersec as well (thanks to the cybersec channel 😁)

[fringe sphinx]

How do the apprenticeships work? What does it mean to get a higher grade?

[faint depot]

In the UK, we have apprenticeship schemes. These schemes are available from the ages 16 and upwards. You apply to an apprenticeship via a company that offers them. Apprenticeships allow you to work in the company (earning a decent wage), whilst also gaining a qualification via training provider the company works with (this could be a high school or another dedicated training centre); the qualifications are graded much like a normal BTEC (just google what a BTEC is). The highest mark you can get from an apprenticeship, to my knowledge, is a distinction. With an apprenticeship, you can apply further either through the same company or a different company to do a degree apprenticeship. Works exactly like a normal apprenticeship except, you're getting a degree from a university which the company has partnered up with. The degree is entirely paid for by the company so you do not need to get a student loan (made even sweeter by the fact that you're also getting paid a decent amount). Hopefully, that somewhat clears it up. Please, whoever's reading this, to correct me on any wrong detail

Feel exhausted XD

[fringe sphinx]

Thank you

[faint depot]

No worries. I highly suggest you search it up yourself as I know I'm missing a lot of details and very likely some bits of misinformation. This is just speaking from my current experience of seaching for an apprenticeship (never done one before)

[vast venture]

im currently 16 years old and going into my junior year of highschool (in the US). id like to graduate this year and also start my associates degree during my junior year. my plan is to finish my associates in what would be my senior year and take advantage of my community colleges guaranteed transfer agreement to get into a decent college/university. with this plan, id graduate college when im 19/20, but my concern is how this will affect my chances at landing internships (and return offers) since ill be moving through school pretty fast. any advice?

[true harness]

it doesn't matter, as long as you communicate your graduation date accurately

[gritty rivet]

If it feels right, go with it.

The fact that you're thinking this far ahead tells me you'll be proactive about finding an internship when the time comes

[smoky quest]

also tangential: enjoy the ride. No need to speed run college.
There is so much to learn and to prepare yourself for an awesome career

[true harness]

though, i am interested how you will enroll for an associates without a high school diploma

[smoky quest]

I would expect them to aim for a BS and not just associate as well

[true harness]

they say they want to transfer to a 4 year school, right?

[vast venture]

i could either get my GED or take a placement test to show im ready

[vast venture]

yeah, but since i have my associates i'd only have 2 years of college remaining

[smoky quest]

19/20 seems pretty young for a bs

[true harness]

if their plan is achievable, that's when they would get it ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[fringe sphinx]

Huh? You have the associates already?

[smoky quest]

and believe it or not, 19/20 would still seem pretty young for a bs

[vast venture]

i meant i could take the placement test to be eligible to enroll into the associates program

[fringe sphinx]

In the US?

[true harness]

i'm getting one at 21, a year early is just skipping one more grade . either way, i don't see how that's relevant if they're actually going to get one

[vast venture]

im just concerned about if me being in community college will hurt my chances of landing internships

[fringe sphinx]

Are you sure there's a placement test? I would've assumed a GED would be required

[smoky quest]

you fail to see how someone being pretty young to get a degree would be relevant to #career-advice ?

[true harness]

why does it matter how old they are if they actually have the degree?

[vast venture]

it depends on where you live and the schools individual policies, but for my school, yes, i can take a placement test

[fringe sphinx]

That's cool, sounds like you have things figured out

[smoky quest]

that's besides the point of being relevant

[smoky quest]

being in community colleges won't hurt your chances.

Make sure you have a solid resume and great projects to stand out, as any other student

[true harness]

one thing you might be overlooking is that it is pretty lonely if most people are a lot older than you. i know a few people that are taking / have taken similar paths, and many of them say that they have difficulty relating to their classmates, making friends, etc. but they had an age difference of like 3+ years, so it might not be that bad in your case

[fringe sphinx]

If you don't land an internship, just take summer courses or volunteer or do something else. It's not the end of the world. The important internship is Junior year

[vast venture]

yeah i mean ive gotten that alot and thought it over, but i think this is worth it considering ill be 19-20 when i graduate, so ill have alot of extra time to find jobs especially in this cutthroat job market

[true harness]

how will you have extra time? you'll still be graduating with a class of other people that will all be looking for jobs

[smoky quest]

I would worry less about the cutthroat job market and more about not missing on any class or topic

[fringe sphinx]

I will say, I think this is a not good plan, and you're better off finishing high school. But I don't know you and your situation: if this is just trying to game the system or gain an advantage, I don't think it'll help.

[vast venture]

ill have extra time as in its ok if i dont land a job directly after college, since im younger than most i can afford to wait a little bit

[true harness]

even 5 years will not really make a difference over a 40 year career. people change careers in their 30s and are still fine. though.. i guess in the US you can't use your parents insurance after 26, so i guess you have a mild advantage there

[smoky quest]

not finding a job after graduating is also problematic as it shows you could not find a job. So still not a great idea

[vast venture]

i mean from what ive heard from others it seems like its hard enough to find a job already, and that you should probably try to gain some sort of advantage by either learning more or gaining more experience than others, which is what im trying to do anyways, the only difference would be that im also moving through school faster

[fringe sphinx]

(I'm still trying to imagine a community college accepting a 16 year old based on a placement)

[smoky quest]

There is no secret: be good.
If you are good, you won't have a problem finding internships or jobs.
The people who complain the loudest are typically people in the lower skill bucket

And I remain skeptical of anyone being great in such a short time. Which is why I would advise against speed running it. If you are that smart, then take your time to learn even more and be even more skilled, which will yield benefit on the short term and also over your whole career

[vast venture]

yeah i get your point. the main reason im doing this is because chances are i can get into a better college using the guaranteed transfer agreement than if i were to apply normally to schools, and speedrunning school is what i'd have to do to take advantage of the transfer agreement

[smoky quest]

Then use that time to think about a masters as well

[true harness]

aren't you able to do community college even if you graduated HS at 18?

[vast venture]

yeha but that wouldnt fly with my parents

[fringe sphinx]

Huh?

What wouldn't fly? They don't want you to go to college?

[vast venture]

so if i can go to grad school and learn more then id probably be fine, right? as in id probably be better than my peers who are my age but dont have a masters

[vast venture]

they wouldnt want me to go to community college if i graduate highschool normally. they'd rather me attend a 4 year university

[smoky quest]

Sure.
As an employer, I don't care about the age, within the standard.
So regardless of your age, you can think about you and all your classmates applying to the same jobs anyway

[fringe sphinx]

You know between APs, summer college courses and maybe taking an evening class as a non matriculated student, you can knock nearly a year off of college.

[true harness]

yes, but no one is comparing age in the job market. being younger isn't really an advantage

but honestly, my experience with community college has been quite poor. maybe it's just the course i took, but it is genuinely terrible wrt depth or difficulty. i would recommend mostly doing geneds when you're at CC and save the CS courses for the second half

[fringe sphinx]

I don't think that's an option if they want a Cs associates

[vast venture]

yeah, i get that age doesnt matter, its just who can do the job the best, but id argue its good to try and start landing jobs as early as you can. but anyways, thanks for the help ill give your guys' advice some thought and make some changes. 🙏

[true harness]

but it's not early. you're still graduating with a bunch of people that are all competing with you

[true harness]

yeah true. but there are still elective slots, at least at the CCs near me

[vast venture]

yeah, and ill also be competing the people who graduated with their bs at the same time i got my masters, so we'd be applying to the same jobs together

[fringe sphinx]

Doesn't really matter, you'll be competing with people who got a masters.

[true harness]

you would not be applying to the same jobs as a BS when you have an MS. but that's besides the point. it doesn't matter how old you are

[vast venture]

why not? would i just be applying to the same entry level dev jobs they are?

[fringe sphinx]

You'll be competing with other people with a college degree. Nobody cares about age.

[smoky quest]

You would be applying to jobs asking for more qualification and skills

[vast venture]

im not really referring to age here. i just thought that if i were to get my masters, id still be applying to entry level swe roles like the people graduating with a bs

[placid kelp]

What do you think is the best way to create a chatbot for a school whose end users are students and donot need much coding but need to integrate with an AI like copilot

[peak halo]

This is the career discussion channel. Try #data-science-and-ml

[vast venture]

but yeah guys i have to get to going now but thanks for your helpful feedback. ill definitely make some changes and maybe just go the normal route

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, that is somewhat true, altho more doors might be open, somewhat depends on your path and preparation.

[placid kelp]

ok thanks

[vapid jay]

Prospectives differ as financial situation is different for everyone, I am just talking from his prospective, I don't have any financial problem so I can do it from any college, but when you don't have money and not even a good college, you'll be good for nothing, in India, they choose the best of them, not everyone gets paid here.

[fringe sphinx]

Oh this wasn't directed at you. I just meant that getting diverse perspectives is important.

[vapid jay]

yeah, no worries

[undone dust]

👍

[vapid jay]

hey guys! do you know where main chat is? i cant seem to find it

[whole flare]

#python-discussion

[near birch]

Can we get into automation with Python & Selenium before having exp of atleast 10yrs?

[smoky quest]

sure, why not?

[crisp stream]

try asking in #python-discussion instead

[dawn barn]

Knew I was in the wrong channel
Thanks for the help!

[true tendon]

Hello

[amber willow]

Hey

I believe everyone is of more different capabilities when it comes to programming
Would it be okay for anyone to be interested in my discord server
It's not much or the best, looking forward to expand it with more experienced programmers

[true tendon]

I'm new I don't even know P of python lol 😂

[amber willow]

I just got started into learning it myself
I believe we can all grow together if you also believe

[true tendon]

For sure

[amber willow]

Would it interest you to join?

[smoky quest]

Ads or recruitment aren't allowed on this server

[amber willow]

I'm sorry

[faint depot]

Its ironic Im saying this as I do this all the time but, dont rush into things. If you consider yourself someone whos highly intelligent, then do the smart thing of expanding your skillset outside of what you learn in school. Fuck the Ivy Leagues, fuck the highest grades, fuck the top companies, forge your own path. You define your attributes, not the other way round. Trust me, I was like you and then I fucked up because of it and now Im trying to forge a new path for myself now after wasting years in uni

[near ocean]

If you're smart you'd do the smart thing and stay in school and go to the highest ranking uni you can afford

[glossy orchid]

school ain't free for you all?

[digital fjord]

uni is never free, it costs 3 years pay

[glossy orchid]

legit is free frfr, even get money to go to it

[digital fjord]

yea, IG if you get money for it, it is free. Here that requires rather respectable grades tho, which can be an issue if you want to get the most of it, since it leaves you with less time for internships/research groups/networking.

[glossy orchid]

wait, why go to internships if you study in uni?

[near ocean]

Internships are usually only available to students

[digital fjord]

They're for students to get practical experience and specialize further, who else would go for internships?

[zealous crow]

.

[vapid jay]

At what stage of learning should I start focusing on design patterns?

[peak halo]

Python developers don't really talk about design patterns.

[bleak spoke]

Yeah I been thinking to do that. I rly hate the idea of going to uni to study some crap that's not even gonna be relevant to my job haha. I've heard that is what it is like 85 percent of the time, idk about cs though

[true harness]

why not?

[peak halo]

When people talk about design patterns in programming, they're usually using languages like Java or C++. And the patterns reflect those languages' approach to OOP.

[regal axle]

I mean,,, people in python do talk about design patterns. There are tons of them out there. I do see the conversation less brought up in python. But less is not don't

[regal axle]

IMO, you never have to learn the formal names of design patterns. Just pay attention to when you are doing a similar thing over and over again. And maybe you can check out the design pattern lists every now and again. There are way more than you might think.
Just programming, you will naturally learn / use most design patterns

[plush summit]

Yeah it is something you will learn by doing and not reading from books just like uml

[brazen sky]

Heya guys do u recommend me to get this book?

[stuck chasm]

If someone can make me a program, I will pay it?

[brazen sky]

Like wot.

[hearty island]

https://tenor.com/view/we-dont-do-that-here-black-panther-tchalla-bruce-gif-16558003

[brazen sky]

Exactly lol (also am still need ur option)

[regal axle]

!res never heard of that book in particular. But if you go to the resources page, there are "recommended books"
For the most part, they are all a good option. But if you want more discussion on that, you can ask more in #python-discussion

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[true harness]

sure, but there are similar "design patterns" in python. not all java design patterns will translate over, for example, but many do

[plush summit]

Just go to fiverr lol

[vapid jay]

makes sense. Thanks!

[near birch]

As the first job and as a fresher?

[near ocean]

Yes

You should look at software dev in test jobs

[warm pollen]

How common are take home assignments for ML Engineer roles?

[fringe sphinx]

Wdym? For interviews?

[faint depot]

Like the other guys said, best get a proper qualification rather than those certificates. Unless if you show youre an exceptional, once-in-a-generation genius, better get a degree. Rolls royce offer a degree apprenticeship in software engineering. Planning to do that or the nuclear engineering (depends if i choose to do an it or enginnering apprenticeship)

[warm pollen]

yup

yea, well, before the interview
the interview will technically be after the assignment

[near ocean]

You do both leetcode and take home? How many interviews on average?

Thats 3 interviews too many 💀

[warm pollen]

i see

i was wondering, does the frequency of these take home assignment as interviews keep decreasing for ML Eng. roles as the seniority of the role rises?

[near ocean]

Im not applying to ML eng roles but yes, if they called me for more than one tech interview i would just tell em no

[hearty island]

i was this close to doing a leetcode thing for a trading company in conecticut and i mentally checked out

[near ocean]

Yea thats too much

[warm pollen]

hmm i see, so how do senior folks get in?

i see i see

[smoky quest]

They don't decrease, even for seniors.
However they may focus across a broader spectrum of skills that are more relevant to seniors (ex: system design)

You will always need a resume

not really. It never stops

[near birch]

Yes that's what i've been planning to do before final year completes

[hearty island]

idk my friend has 15 years of experience in the finance industry and he still needs a resume, but that's finance so idk

[smoky quest]

That's the same for anything related to this field. I wouldn't listen to Lisan on this topic

[hearty island]

i do agree having a good network is super nice however. at my graduation, they said your network is your net worth

[smoky quest]

But you are the one stating falsehoods

Anyway, that person will see for themselves once they reach a few years of experience

I am not saying you are lying. I am saying you don't know what you are talking about.
You are confusing building your professional network with not requiring to have a resume

This is not super complicated or an obscure knowledge. That's pretty basic that senior people and above do still have a need to maintain their resume ¯_(ツ)_/¯
I understand it can be surprising to newer folks though

[harsh river]

i highly think this can vary depending on where you are as well, maybe you're somewhere where networking > degrees.

[hearty island]

as a manager, when you have like let's say 10 years of XP, do you stick with one page? just curious

[smoky quest]

If you plan a new startup with some folks, that's also a case where you don't need a resume

[hearty island]

bc my manager i looked at her resume and she has maybe 15 years of xp and it's two or three pages

[smoky quest]

You can expect people to go beyond one page after 3-5 years even.
So yeah, managers will have more than one page.

The interesting part is when you effectively career switch away from the tech side to the management side. Then your resume has to reflect all the management skills and remove a bunch of tech side that isn't relevant anymore

[harsh river]

in some countries, like Mexico, Brazil, or other LATAM countries, i've seen many people in many roles get a job simply because of connections, without their resume being checked, this more often than not ends up badly, but still, it is a thing, in the US this wouldn't fly.

[hearty island]

so would it be a bad look for a manager to have 10 yoe xp and use a one page format? just for my own curiosity

[smoky quest]

Yeah, or if your dad is the manager or ceo

[harsh river]

nepotism goes hard brrr brrr

[smoky quest]

Depends on what you want the reader to learn. After 10 years, what you did recently is far more relevant than something you did 10 years ago too

[verbal sedge]

what do you need to be a programmer in the workplace?

[hearty island]

right. so maybe the top 3 most recent positions?

[smoky quest]

What people will generally do is just keep the header and remove most of the paragraph below it. So it's not like you did nothing, and it can also help convey a story

[hearty island]

sorry, i'm confused. wdym? oh you mean like keep the role?

[smoky quest]

You know how your resume has a header for each job and then a paragraph or a list of bullets? Just keep the title/company/years and remove the description/bullets

[hearty island]

ah, ok

[smoky quest]

history is not linear. So it's interesting and relevant to see that someone went to principal level before going to manager for instance

[zenith jewel]

hey

[hearty island]

yea idk how i'm gonna organize my resume once i have more years of xp. good thing i don't need to worry about that rn

[zenith jewel]

i started learning python a few days ago by angela yuu

her 100 day course.

[smoky quest]

It's a great problem to have

[zenith jewel]

any advices?

[smoky quest]

In terms of career, a CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[hearty island]

i swear you copy paste that, it must be the most common thing you say

[zenith jewel]

im currently enrolling as a ENC electronics and computers major

[thick ginkgo]

is pyhton not ab;e to download bc mine wont

[gilded wedge]

hey i always wanted to get into AI and Ml, but i thinks that it is a big career compare to fullstack developer for me as i have prior experience with web development compare to having no experience in AI sector, so i am choosing to master fullstack for now and get a job in it and keep learning AI side by side and switch career in future, any advice on this guys?

[wary drum]

are most programming jobs comfortable or ill have to sit on a chair for 8hours a day

[digital fjord]

what would you imagine as the alternative, you're of course allowed to stand up and stretch on a regular basis (unless you're in a really bad gig), but it is in the end a job about using a computer. Some also do standing desks

[gilded wedge]

may you explain more on the second sentence, i want to know more on that , thankyou

thankyou for sharing, let me have a look at this

[wary drum]

alr good

[wary drum]

like could it be shorter hours or work from home those stuff

[true harness]

sure, though work from home will still be the same experience with regards to sitting at a chair

[digital fjord]

work from home is typical, shorter hours isn't really a thing short of straight up part time. No sane company will make you sit at your desk for 8 straight hours, that is an ergonomic nightmare.

[gilded wedge]

one of the best videos i ever watched, thankyou for sharing, i think now i know what I have to do

[wary drum]

alr thank you guys

[edgy field]

I want to learn python language but i want it to learn free

i am currently enrolled in school for AI

[regal axle]

!res this is very possible. I learnt python for free. Eventually, if you want a CS job, you should get a degree. But if you just want to learn to program / python, there are a ton of free resources.

Also, for more help with learning stuff, you can ask a lot in #python-discussion

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[edgy field]

thank you

[trim pelican]

How much does a CS degree matter these days

Lots of folks with CS degrees are jobless these days.

[smoky quest]

It's the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation.

So I would say it's crucial if you want a great career

[smoky quest]

There are far more people without a job who do not have a CS degree than people with a CS degree who do not have a job

[peak halo]

It's always easier for CS degree holders to get a job in development than non-CS degree holders. So if CS degree holders are having a hard time, non CSDH are going to have an impossible time.

[muted bridge]

What are some interesting ways to show passion in CS besides personal projects?

[proper plaza]

Guys I feel so aimless in my coding journey
Rn I know coding but feel like I still need to review the basics
People say not to do tutorials but when I do projects idk how to do them so I need to do tutorials and the cycle repeats
I also just don’t know what to actually do in general
Like do I do practice problems after understanding the basics
Move on to projects?
I seriously have no clue
If anyone can dm me to help out that’d be nice

What I’m basically trying to say is I want to pursue coding but I have no clear path for it

[smoky quest]

In terms of career, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities

[hearty island]

tutorial hell, seems like. i agree with recursive

[proper plaza]

Swear I heard this exact sentence before

[hearty island]

you have, recursive probably copy pastes it

[smoky quest]

it does not make it any less true

[smoky quest]

I type fast.

[hearty island]

recursive's right too, i quit trying to pursue a swe career simply bc i didn't have a cs degree. i'm more IT stuff but trying to break into finance as we speak

[fringe sphinx]

Academic interests? Volunteering? Student organizations? Entrepreneurship?

[hearty island]

my masters in finance should help w that

[chrome locust]

Should I continue with python or leave it as ai is gonna take over?

[hearty island]

ai isn't taking over anything

[chrome locust]

Well it’s so advanced rn, so how won’t it take over in the near future?

[smoky quest]

nope

[chrome locust]

Is getting a python degree worth it? As I’ve seen many ppl say it’s a waste of time as u can learn at home

[smoky quest]

there is no python degree

[hearty island]

comp sci degree is a thing

[chrome locust]

Cs *

[smoky quest]

yeah, and in terms of career, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[chrome locust]

So I should take it? 😭, but again, can’t o learn eberything at home from yt and books?

[smoky quest]

I think it was made pretty clear that you should take it

[smoky quest]

there are many things you will learn that you didn't even know exist.
And then you are in an environment where you can't be too lazy since you have classes and exams. And finally, you will have the opportunity to build a professional network with your classmates.

And besides all of it, it's a great way to prove that you have relevant skills. It's far more difficult to do so without a degree

[twilit portal]

If we assume that someone has absolutely no opportunity to get a degree, what would you say is the second best way to acquire those skills and prove them?

[tacit stirrup]

Hi

[fringe sphinx]

'Many ppl' are ill informed

[smoky quest]

adjacent fields to get closer and projects. Nepotism too

[vital wyvern]

Invest significant amounts of time in acquiring knowledge through your library or purchased books. Pursue experience at all opportunities. Push yourself to build at-scale projects that demonstrate a level of acute understanding of your subject of choice.

[twilit portal]

Do you think test automation is a good adjacent field or would that require a degree too?

[twilit portal]

Yeah, I basically try to pursue CS knowledge as if I was getting a degree

[smoky quest]

candidates with degrees will be preferred, but that's definitely easier than regular swe

[vital wyvern]

If you’re writing code you’re on the right track. You can’t really be a beggar/chooser in that regard. Find a job that permits you the ability to produce code and then work tirelessly to use that opportunity to show your competency.

[fringe sphinx]

There's many levels to 'qa' jobs. From manual testing to full engineer, it's hard to answer

[smoky quest]

you have to realize that every field with programming will have no shortage of candidates with degrees.
Each job ad will have thousands of applicants, most of which with degrees, great projects and awesome internships.

While the different jobs will have different level of requirements, you can't avoid the crowd. So your main ace shouldn't be having a lower competition but yourself being better.
So that means a path of higher resistance and with more work and lower opportunities. Thus go further with awesome++ projects

[twilit portal]

Thank you, you all have been very helpful

[sleek charm]

Opening the requirements for a junior entry level dev position on LinkedIn:

[hearty island]

you can drop an anonymized version of your resume in here if you want feedback/help

[deep shadow]

So, I'm trying to get a job in a software dev role for some time. I'm mainly a python / java user but I've been focusing on python since my graduation mostly.

I was curious, should I be branching out my languages? I've seen a lot of jobs for CSS, Html etc for example for web dev. Is it smart to invest some time learning those or should I stick to python?

Follow up: I'm currently doing a python certification. Should I wait until after that or do both at the same time?

[smoky quest]

Since you mentioned a graduation, your degree is worth 10000000x your certificate. So don't wait for it.

In terms of branching out, that has less to do with the stack and more to do with the role and whether you would enjoy webdev or not

[near birch]

Should i do web dev using Java with Springboot/Hibernate or Python using Django/Flask which one's better and why please advice any?

[smoky quest]

they are both great options

[near birch]

Is Python Web Dev really effective? I've heard some saying websites using Python are slow?

[smoky quest]

that would be a skill issue

And if you reach the stage where your load is impacted by the language, then it's a great problem to have

[near birch]

How that stage might be described as in Development? I won't even realise if i hit any

[smoky quest]

that's part of being experienced 🙂

For instance, it's most likely you have performance issue because of your schema design or the query you make to the DB

So in the end, the choice between the two will typically comes down to whichever your lead is more used to or likes the best

[deep shadow]

i think i would enjoy webdev, but i also enjoy python
im having trouble finding jobs with just python tho and ive seen some other languages in demand

[smoky quest]

Both python and java are very popular for the backend, at least in the USA

[deep shadow]

i see

maybe i should try for more remote jobs then

[smoky quest]

You should target all the jobs. But if I recall correctly your situation, local jobs may have far more chances for you

[nocturne hound]

im 19 and i know basic godot and i wanna learn more programming so i can get literally any job programming, if i learn python by learning pygame, will that help me with learning python so i could get some software job somewhere? i dont know anything about software dev jobs but ive heard python is a good place to start.

[smoky quest]

In terms of career, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[deep shadow]

the opposite, ive been having trouble getting employed. I have a degree from a top 50 university, i have certifications, internship experience (6 months), a good portfolio with 35+ projects, a lot of them are fairly complex. Still, I'm struggling out here 🥲

[nocturne hound]

im in college right now getting my AA and then later my BS in CS but im hoping i can teach myself faster than school teaches me and get a job sooner

im currently developing my first actaul game butttttt game dev isnt stable like actual software development i feel like but idk

[smoky quest]

aren't you in like Pakistan?

[deep shadow]

yes
wait, how do you know? 💀

[smoky quest]

yeah, due to TZ and culture difference, you will have a hard time being hired remote, especially in the USA

[smoky quest]

you won't teach yourself faster and that should not even be the goal.
Your goal should be to get out of school even better and stronger. So leverage both aspects

[deep shadow]

true...
Im mainly looking at countries like dubai, malaysia, singapore, australia for remote work

[smoky quest]

yeah, that sounds more doable. Either way, don't search less locally. Search everywhere 🙂

[deep shadow]

will do 🫡
but i still wonder, in terms of employablity, do people like specialists or people with more variety? I could do either one, but i dont know which one to focus on.

At the moment, my main languages are python, java and C#.

[smoky quest]

There is room for all sorts of people

[deep shadow]

i see, thanks! Ill keep at it then

[smoky quest]

and right now you are still at the beginning of your journey. Over time, people do tend to specialize through their experience

like if you spend 2 years on backend, it does count for something

[deep shadow]

true, yeah
im just a bit demotivated cause of the unemployment and its making me question my strategy a bit 😅

[smoky quest]

take it like a sales funnel. Keep track of where you apply and where/how you got the most replies

[deep shadow]

right, that sounds like a good idea

[chilly lagoon]

Bsc cs - big data and cloud computing or bsc cs - cybersecurity . which one could be more difficult to study like which one has more hard maths intensity

[smoky quest]

that depends on the curriculum

[chrome locust]

PYTHON… WHYY

TF IS THAT 😭😭😭🙏🙏🙏, I expected better from you

[smoky quest]

Is there a question or topic?

[chrome locust]

Why python turn gay?

Thas my question, why support pride

[smoky quest]

See #changelog message

And thank you very much for outing yourself as a bigot!
I have added you to my shit list

[chrome locust]

What did I do?

[chrome locust]

Bro CANNOT be talking 💀 🙏

[deep shadow]

@chrome locust sorry dude, im not adding you
you can say anything you want in this server

[chrome locust]

How come ?

[deep shadow]

i dont think ill like what you have to say 💀
theres a reason i have a limitation on my dms

[chrome locust]

I’m a good guy dw 😭😭😭💀💀💀

I won’t bite

[deep shadow]

im sure you are, we can become friends talking here and then i can add you

[chrome locust]

Alright man, btw, do y know python?

[deep shadow]

also, we should leave this channel, we're crowding up the place
but yeah, i do. #python-discussion

[chrome locust]

Careful with whatchu say 🙏🗣️🗣️🙏 the COCK is watching 🤞🤞🐔🐔 and he ain’t take NO prisoners 🙅‍♂️🙅‍♂️🤫🤫

[smoky quest]

It's not a channel for shitposting

[chrome locust]

U said it first

[chrome locust]

Exactly mate

[chrome locust]

A bit off topic but I noticed that you used “shitposting” in your message. Just wanted to say, don’t give up anything in your life. I don’t know what you’re going through but I’m always here to help.

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> shitposting

[chrome locust]

Bri why u complaining

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied timeout to @chrome locust until <t:1720418070:f> (10 minutes) (reason: emoji spam - sent 43 emojis).

The <@&831776746206265384> have been alerted for review.

[summer roost]

!tempban 786110864968122379 1w Homophobic trolling and off topic messages

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @chrome locust until <t:1721022482:f> (7 days).

[lilac umbra]

thank god he's gone

[tender sun]

Hi,I am a newbie and I don't have much knowledge about ML , I have been doing backend and a little of React , is it possible to do ML and SWE side by side? I just want to maximise my chance of getting my first job.

[smoky quest]

ML can be viewed either as an adjacent topic or within the realm of SWE. So yes, it's a normal and common thing

The main thing is that in terms of career, a degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[tender sun]

I am doing comp sci now

[tender sun]

I am half way through 3rd year , I always feel like I am not doing enough

[smoky quest]

Take classes related to it, read books related to it and have projects related to it

[tough plank]

Hey

[deep shadow]

@smoky quest i apologize if you dont like pings (just lmk)
but the python certification im doing has CSS and HTML basics 😅, that means i can keep doing what ive been working on but I dont have to worry about not having any knowledge at all about other tech

solves all my problems

[tender sun]

Also I didnt do internship yet (failed to find one atleast in my country) so I am kinda worried , what all types of projects do you suggest would be good for CV with no experience?

[graceful owl]

imo the best kinds of projects are usually ones that you're interested in, otherwise you'll struggle to make something good (in my experience at least)

if you like making games, make a game engine or something like that

[uneven vessel]

Michealhe, I am a Software Engineer working on ML. I think it'd be accurate to consider me a ML Ops Engineer. I help build the infrastructure to enable Data Scientists to more quickly explore, experiment, develop models, put models in to production, observe it in production, and iterate. Also we're looking at providing some ML services of our own via LLM techniques.

[fringe sphinx]

Don't fall into the trap of comparing yourself against others or some artificial expectation. As a 3rd year Uni student, keep doing projects and independent learning: write code frequently and challenge yourself. Take a look at https://missing.csail.mit.edu/2020/ to fill in some other skills. Think about doing a project that incorporates CI/CD and unit testing, to show other skills. Maybe do a ML project but: ML is such a broad topic that you'll just be a beginner... so accept that, and don't worry about not knowing everything.

[dull belfry]

can i go for mtech or mca after completing online bsc cs or bca in india?

[native matrix]

You should ask your college/uni

[dull belfry]

well i havent joined the online bsc i am hoping to join.. but i was worried about higher studies after i joined online ones

[fringe sphinx]

In the US, my advice would be the same: check with the Uni's offering the masters programs. They'll tell you which colleges they accept. That's very good advice.

[obsidian matrix]

Guys, what are the main libraries / framework in Python that i need to know to work as a data scientist and with A.I / machine learning?

[dull belfry]

am finding myself stuck to choose the correct online uni program 😦

[fringe sphinx]

Start here: kaggle.com/learn

[fringe sphinx]

It's tough, but definitely seek out different opinions from people in a position to know (not just random people)

[pale marten]

Do Software engineeers make good money on entry level?

[near ocean]

They generally start better than other professions

[dull belfry]

i asked my cousin who works in software field.. he dont want me to join bits online on coursera

but idk it seem good and approved by many

[pale marten]

20k 😭, thats lower than mcdonalds salary as a cashier

[native matrix]

Personally I did bachelors in IT then moved overseas to do my post-graduation.

My cousin did BCA and he is planning to do MCA

Imo computer degree doesn't matter much if you have good knowledge. Most MNC won't even look at your education as long as you got skills

The only thing my degree helped me as of now is to get admission for my post-graduation study.

[olive burrow]

Interesting

[dull belfry]

even online? i have some issues stoping me from going to regular ones

[native matrix]

Sorry, I have no idea about online degree

[dull belfry]

i have 3 options either iitm online ds or bits pilani online.. or try distance learning from uni in india like ignou

[dull belfry]

yeh no one really has i cant find people to ask for reviews on it

[native matrix]

Well good luck, you can try posting on Reddit

[dull belfry]

yh i will

[raw mantle]

the youtubers be capping bro. it depends.

[true harness]

so isn't that a high salary still?

[fringe sphinx]

Being an engineer is more than just 'getting the job'. It requires being good at the job; study, practice, etc. Just getting a degree and showing up doesn't suddenly unlock the big bucks.

[near ocean]

Theyre still bigger bucks for average or bad engineers compared to average or bad other professions

[fringe sphinx]

It's all relative, for sure

[deep wharf]

nah bro it isn't that easy not in India at least... unless you're from IIT or nit with good coding skills the most common entry bracket is 4-12 lpa according to me in India with 4-8 being the most common

anyways do anyone the difference between JavaScript and typescript ?

In my opinion doesn't Ai related jobs are just a extension of backend, devops etc with some mastery in AI related things so the backend dudes etc apply for Ai too ?

[peak halo]

I wonder if AI positions receive more applications from people who have absolutely no chance.

well nevermind then
my thinking was that people with no degree would just apply to AI positions because it sounds cool.

[deft herald]

"hey i know how to use ChatGPT. Maybe i can get a job doing it"

[smoky quest]

that's what prompt/AI engineers are about. There is also some value to it in some contexts

[regal axle]

Hmmm. I am looking at a company and can't figure out what the difference between these two titles actually is?
Software Engineer II, Backend vs Backend Software Engineer II

[deft herald]

The difference is 2 different HR reps who created the job listing

[pine sleet]

check the job roles

[regal axle]

very much the most likely answer

[regal axle]

obviously I did. And ... yea, no, can't tell the difference. Yea, they have different descriptions. But not a clear difference. It seems like one is slightly more focused on the product over the other? idk

his team is at the forefront of ||Company X's|| exciting international expansion, and will be launching critical product initiatives in 2023.
Hmmmm I have a feeling this is a stale listing ...
Makes me wonder if I am better off doing the other one? Idk, super arbitrary

[gritty rivet]

You're clearly putting way more thought into their titles than they did.

[regal axle]

hahah, yea. But I do wonder about my most recent point.

[gritty rivet]

If a company can't bother to manage their job listings properly I would probably not bother applying, or apply to both, or ask

[regal axle]

Yea, there are a few roles that are similar but slightly different. It seems like different products have their own posting. As if I am supposed to know what each product team is.
But one has a more recent date (2024). And so I will just apply to that one. It is all the same office. And the one guy's email I do have, I will just let him know that I applied. If he wants to move me around or whatever, I take it.

Hmmmm
Ok, I have been thinking about this also;

I have seen a few job apps, that require me to give them my city. But ,,, I want to relocate to their city. Should I just put where I currently live? Or should I just put down something else. Idk

[gritty rivet]

I dunno... I remember reading someone explaining that when they got a bunch of phone numbers for the area codes of the cities they were willing to move to, they got a lot more call backs

Personally I'm not that motivated and strongly prefer fully remote work so I would probably just be honest... But could details indicating you are elsewhere count against you in ways that saying you are willing to move won't totally mitigate? Probably.

[regal axle]

....
Yea, right now, in my life, I am looking to be onsite / hybrid. There are no jobs in the city I live in. So I am ok with moving to lets say SF or NY (for the right pay).
But I don't live there now. And so,,, I have no idea what is better. But most likely, I am just over thinking things

[deft herald]

Yeah i think you're better off spending these mental cycles pushing that "submit application" button

[gritty rivet]

I would just start applying and see how it goes. You feel like your call back rate is really bad, reevaluate and experiment

[nimble sun]

Hi everyone
I'm bharat
I can give referral in trellix

[deft herald]

What have I done that would be worthy of your referral?

What weight does a referral have if you're willing to just hand it out to anyone who asks?

[regal axle]

Yea, only if the person stays for a long time. And if they don't, you tend to get marked negatively. So like,,, is it really worth just handing them out

[deft herald]

My last job, you'd get a payment only if the person got hired in the end. I got it to happen once, but it was a guy who was a good friend of mine whom i knew personally and could vouch for his professional experience

[regal axle]

Right yea, that is the ideal situation

[nimble sun]

Can I get referral in Qualcomm

[rugged ore]

bro joined the server just to ask this question

[near ocean]

No

[sleek bridge]

@terse atlas hey do you play dota ? Can I also play with you ?

[rigid perch]

can someone help me

with C++

[deft herald]

No

[deft herald]

Well, i change my answer. If you can find a job openeing there for which you qualify, and can convince me of your expertise in the related field, then sure

[digital cobalt]

Hi everyone! Just joined this server, so I could not decide where to post this kind of a story of mine (in python-help or career-discussion), therefore – sorry if it is not supposed to be in this channel. So that you know I am writing here to hear some advices on choosing and developing my career path. Currently I just ended 1st year of my computer science degree and became one of the best students in whole university, nonetheless I am not feeling comfortable about it, since understanding how little do I know about actual programming (education systems are just not capable of keeping up with technologies that are already in use and are beginning to be used in new projects) – actual projects with multiple technologies used in it either it is web, android or AI and data science. Based on my thoughts I started surfing the net for some advices how to become actually good and useful in coding – many people which I listened to mentioned joining community (this is the reason why I am here right now), joining any projects or going on a bootcamps – to conclude: find someone to learn with or who will teach you (or maybe give any type of advice). Unfortunately, I live in a very small country in Europe – Latvia, where bootcamp requirements for IT students are kind of insane and free-to-join projects for learning are not available as well (because of a lack of knowledge no one wants to teach students even if they are willing to do internships for free).

Taking into account the above facts, I wanted to start to self-educate myself. I have chosen Python because it is simple (syntax) and I knew that it is used for data science, moreover I do like math, so wanted to learn about it more, but I was not sure about it, since just starting learning coding with data science was not looking like a good idea in my head. So know I have 2 ways – either going for data science or learning some backend (Django), but in either way of this I have no clue where to start, since there are SO many technologies companies are using and just starting to learn seems meaningless, when feeling it just can be useless in the future due to not studying something useful. So, to conclude – I feel kind of lost now in these decisions, that is why I am writing this here. I would extremely appreciate any type of advice – about how and where to learn data science or Django and web development, with which one I should start, maybe something about open projects where people are looking for students and are willing to help them improve (I do not need money or any type of salary – I just want to learn more about stuff I am interested in), bootcamps – just anything. Sorry if I bothered someone or looked dumb/weird/not willing to work, but I am just seeking for advices and information to help me figure things out. Thank You for reading this message 😊.

[deft herald]

I just ended 1st year of my computer science degree and became one of the best students in whole university
By what metric? That's an awfully conceited thing to say...

[deft herald]

TBH i would continue with the CS degree - that teaches you all the fundamentals you will need in order to pick up new technology very quickly. You should be able to get paid internships between years as a student

[gritty rivet]

It sounds like you just need to pick some projects and start building stuff.

[digital cobalt]

By grades (in my country we have grades like 1-10 and my ranking was 10 in 1st semester and 9,81 in the second so I got nominated for the prize "The best student of university" this year, but did not won it - the thing is that I did not want to praise myself, but to show, that nonetheless this fact I do not feel that I am actually learning skills which companies are looking for)

[fringe sphinx]

There are some very good Python tutorials you can learn from.

!res

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[fringe sphinx]

Click on Beginner, and maybe Free

[buoyant seal]

Data science and Backend development are two different career paths.

I follow the path of backend dev/devops engineer with leaning towards pure software engineer skills.
as i am versed only in this direction, i can advice confidently regarding stuff from this direction
I am very approving your aim to do self studies on top as university did not really prepare me for essential skills i wished to know sooner.
You can start with quickstart tutorials if u wish in python world https://www.djangoproject.com/start/
you can find project ideas here https://codingchallenges.fyi/challenges/intro
https://nedbatchelder.com/text/kindling.html
Best could be actually being part of some gaming community or smth and doing stuff for them. When stuff u build has actually real users and u handle feedback and feature requests for them, it makes entirely different level of quality.

I will advise you learning core software engineering skills. Code Complete is excellent book giving overview about a lot of stuff existing in software development, and what to read next for each topic.
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#CodeCompleteAPracticalHandbookofSoftwareConstruction
The most essential core skill u could learn to become a real dev is learning Unit testing
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#TestDrivenDevelopmentByExample
https://darklab8.github.io/blog/favourite.html#UnitTestingPrinciplesPracticesandPatterns
Unit testing makes a huge quality difference and real commercial dev out of a person! For that if u write backend code, you need to have tests interacting with database too. Like your CI code preferably should raise Postgresql/DB and run tests against it, and only then a good coverage for backend apps is reachable (at the level of 80%+ coverage)

[buoyant seal]

My third advise and last advice will be, eventually not stopping at python and dynamic typed languages in general.
Try development with golang and java like. Consider diving deep into language that has real static typing by default.
That was life changer for me during university that really sparkled for me productivity, i loved coding with C# in university, i was able to do complex stuff that i had hard time replicate in any way with python after that.
Languages with real static typing and at the same time simple enough by having Garbage Collection, can sparkle a real productivity (at least for me when writing fully fledged applications) if they fit your personaly and style to coding.
So my advice trying them too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6rP-YP4c5I perhaps u like them too.
languages like Java have more intricate learning curve a bit though. U will be able to save time by investing into getting comfortable with them and knowing ecosystem, and how to write professional code with unit testing much sooner if u wish. Then u will be able to get hired after uni working with desired languages/tech stack instead of picking job by accident
U could build even minecraft mods with Java for fun if u wish 🙂
Disclaimer: Some people genuinely find dynamic typed languages as better and more productive for them. My advice is to find stuff that works for you.

[digital cobalt]

OMG Thank You so much for spending your time to give me some useful tips and information!

[buoyant seal]

P.S. if u wish diving into backend career, consider picking Linux as more sane and pleasurable choice to work with that dominates 98% of a modern market and fully automatable in its infrastructure as a code.
Some people could say that Windows still exists and probably usable... but that's not for pleasant dev experience, or usually for keeping park of simple PC windows users only.
Anyway, that's my another adivce. Get better with Linux to comfortable level if u wish aiming to backend/web stuff.
Linux and Docker with it open the world of open source choices making easy to raise any database or other infra object in 1 minute effort today (for stuff that novices could struggle for days)
https://www.amazon.com/Docker-Deep-Dive-Nigel-Poulton/dp/1916585256 structured docker learning
As some example... Postgres for any version is raisable and destroyable in a single command described here https://hub.docker.com/_/postgres
or even self hosted VPN can be raised very simply if u know docker https://github.com/linuxserver/docker-wireguard

Also if u will be aiming into backend career, consider learning throughly at least only of SQL production ready db engines, Postgresql or Mariadb/Mysql.
Once u learned them at Raw SQL level in performant way, using any ORM abstractions is way more understandable after that.
Raw SQL is reusable experience between them all to understand how to interact with databases correctly

[buoyant seal]

In reality though at your first year of university you are supposed to keep finding fields of development that u like more. So don't stick with backend only ^_^ Try everything.
Java is multipurpose language that opens world into Backend and Android and Desktop development like.
Golang is very multipurpose too i guess 🤔
Ergh... try building backend and desktop and mobile and frontend i guess too just in case, and may be even embedded if interested. Try different things and find languages that u indeed enjoy to work with, and preferably possible to choose working with them for majority of your career

@digital cobalt when making your choices... Check your local job market, which job roles actually exist and with which languages u can indeed find career reliably after graduation. Not every language has job market to find a lot of jobs in it (especially in small countries). your language/tech stack should be having reasonable enough amount of job roles preferably

[digital cobalt]

TBH I did not even expect that many detailed answers. Thanks everyone for Your advices and especially @buoyant seal - You are insane (in a good way)

[nimble sun]

Thanks bro

[digital cobalt]

May I just ask You about reading books on topics of my career, since I already read some (grokking algorithms and now I am trying to understand "Clear Code" by Robert C. Martin) - am I supposed to focus more on theoretical knowledge or practice, or maybe combining those things together to gain more experience in using theoretical information in practice?

[buoyant seal]

i aim to having not less than 50% practice for 50% of theory. Realistically with my work, it is more going words 80% of practice for 20% of theory. (or even less than 5-10% of time allocated to theory )
If theory is not practiced, it remans dead theory that potentially will fade away. U need kind of practicing in order eventually realize during practice how to use it.

I follow approach with reading 1-2 books, then doing a lot of practice with trying incorporating knowledge i received in books. Once i got confident i understood what is inside those books. And i really wish to get another book, then i could get another one. But in general i reached the point where i just need a lot of practice.... as i discovered that i already learned... materials in books enough that rarely any people learn or apply anywhere anyway. At my point just getting comfortable with all stuff i need and ecosystems is the most time consuming stuff for me, as it takes a lot of stuff to build projects in a quality way for real people usage.

I can advice regarding Clean code book, that it is kind of... to early for you to grab it.

• Head First Design Patterns is very helpful book to learn basics to operate code architecture
• Code Complete is in general nice preparation.
• Unit testing is the most important stuff u ever will know and it changes code architecture to the right clean way often enough if u go with it.
• Learning some static typed language like Golang/Java/C# can be crucial as well to understand Clean Code book... because the material in it is mostly written for such languages. for dynamic typed languages the material from the book very badly works. U can squeeze out of python with Mypy... gradual typing, but it is very hard to get if u know only python (i did not get it until learnt throughly golang)
  And only after that... it is kind of helpful learning Clean Code in my opinon. Weaponized with both unit testing and static typed language, the stuff from the book really makes sense.

[buoyant seal]

that will allow you rethink your python experience and coding like you are C#/Java/Golang dev in python if desired after that. but you get the idea... u need to go beyond python in my opinion in order to get the content of this book. It is very hard to get it only within dynamic typed language constraints where you have UNLIMITED FREEDOM to do everything, where nothing is enforced or restricted. The content of this book is just very hardly applying then. U need to have language with more restrictions, helping enforcing code architecture, in order to use the content of Clean Code book imo.

[true harness]

isn't clean code written for Java?

[buoyant seal]

it is written with Java, but author tried using only Java basic features so it would be understandable and usable universally across languages. The principles the book describes are very universal, but they are just harder to grasp in my opinion without any typing (Like they will be very hard to get in javascript, but way more understandable how to apply in typescript and etc. as i mentioned before, best learning stuff not in gradual typed language though, then it will be far easier to understand how to apply them in gradual typed language after that if desired.)

[digital cobalt]

Thank You! I know something about Java since I had a course in university during the whole 1st year, so I do have a clue about static typed languages (at least a bit), but when I got to the point where author started expalining what are clean systems, threads, JUnit, SerialDate etc. I did not get anything from that (this was the point where I questioned myself "is not it too early for me to read this?") - so everything from variables to classes was pretty understandable

[faint depot]

Anyone whos from the UK, could you possibly describe your experience doing an IT apprenticeship (software) with BT (if you have done one to completion)? just struggling what route to take

[buoyant seal]

• if u struggled with Threads, then u probably did not learn parallelism ways yet. Multithreading and Multiprocessing are the most common. Languages adopt some extra... parallelism ways though. It is part of a common CS degree program. u should be having it soon, but best actually self studying this topic for yourself too. Like... ergh... I got at last what they are and how they are different only after i read on the example of Python in chapter 6 Concurrency in Expert Python Programming 4th edition by Jaworski.
• Junit related stuff => Unit testing related stuff, i adviced prerequisites to get it.
• if u struggled with clean systems, just i guess did not learn preqreuisite to operate code architecture at some minimal level (Head First Design Patterns and Code Complete and Unit testing, and shitton of practice, with trying to work with very opinionated frameworks and then trying to code stuff in a free custom way on your own, they all help to get it and get the feeling... where you are super influenced by... architecture of other solution, and where u can break free and organize your own code in modules and libraries eventually. It is matter of having capability to isolate your code from influence of other code people and bending architecture to your way. Ergh... a shitton of code practice to do essentually, while keeping in mind learnt material and trying to comprehend it, eventually (at some point of time after very long time). Building your own applications is important, otherwise all the theory remains dead knowledge that can fade away without sticking at all.
  • P.S. essentially i find Clean code book very helpful to realize how to build libraries btw. At every possible desired step.

[digital cobalt]

Thanks a bunch for so detailed answers for my questions. I guess You motivated me a lot to start my learning (now I know where and how 🙂 ). I guess it is also a good practice for you, since I have noticed your desire to write books for other software engineers - in my opinion your way of explaining is very understandable for anyone and well-structured as well, so keep going 😉 !

[buoyant seal]

any practice u do can be also killing few birds with one stone and serving as portfolio to get hired after graduations. Projects do not have to be "abstract business solving problem chicken in a vacuum". Best projects come from a heart and really useful to you or other people. Little project to build tool you need in every day life. A tool people in gaming community need. Or even building your own minecraft mod. Doing things in pet projects can be fun, and should be fun! it motivates to work on them more and willingly in free time. (Some time off is still required from time to time to cool down though.)
They all can show your code quality and learned disciplines. They can show how well you communicate with your code to other developers through code, tests and documentation of the project. Any your own fun project can serve as part of portoflio.
That can be important to aim for, as practice as i mentioned very important to comprehend the theory, get comfortable with language/ecosystem and just getting good. A lot of practice. Best doing it in a fun way if u can for that.

[regal axle]

I am finally getting some responses from jobs. Hopefully I can make it all the way to the offer stage 🙏
And hopefully, I can negotiate a TC

[fleet marten]

What is this? OR Python

[radiant vortex]

Bachelor's degree in python? If that's even a thing?

[fleet marten]

I don't think it'd be degree in Python

[true harness]

i assume they just hit enter by accident

[fleet marten]

since Degree in equivalent experience means nothing either, school of hard knocks?

[true harness]

it says "OR"

[fleet marten]

is this a sign?

I think Microsoft overspent on their advertising, that's the sign. The one closest to me says OR Python

[deft herald]

Gotta love generic-ass job descriptions with no distinguising language from each other

[fleet marten]

Some have differeont ones

[thick widget]

Hello everyone, can i get a feedback about what do you think about my personal portfolio? what i can improve? its not finished yet, i still working on it rn

I also thinking more about the about page, since i dont have a bachelor degree i'm thinking about only let the About Me, Pricing and Languages on the About page

[fringe sphinx]

Do you have a resume? That's the important part, the portfolio site is secondary.

But pricing implies you're looking for freelance / contract projects?

[thick widget]

i have to finish my resume, i did not finished mine yet, maybe i should put a button on the About page for the person be able to download the resume?

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe, but nobody is going to find you that way. You'll have to send the resume out when applying to jobs

I also wouldn't put pricing on a webpage, unless you really know what you're doing (and then, you still wouldn't)

[fringe sphinx]

Search for 'Jake's resume', that's a good starting template.

[regal axle]

Also, the whip lash going on with that site is a bit much. The landing pages quality is much higher than the rest of the pages. It just gives off a very incomplete / unprofessional look. It is more important to be consistant, than to have some random really high quality parts.

[fleet marten]

100% this site should just be an SPA

[thick widget]

Got it, thank you, i'll focus on my resume tomorrow and try to improve the others pages too

[fringe sphinx]

You can post anonymized resume here for critique

[radiant vortex]

Wouldn't recommend putting your age or profile picture on your resume, has no real benefit and just opens you up to potential discrimination

[near ocean]

It depends, some regions need a picture
Sounds insane but it is what it is

[brisk cargo]

what regions need a picture?

[radiant vortex]

What regions require a picture on your resume? It literally doesn't relate to your skills at all

[pine sleet]

i have heard of images being common/expected in some areas of EU

[near ocean]

Germany comes to mind

[radiant vortex]

And do you have a source for that?

Either way, it serves no purpose other than to be potentially discriminated against

[fringe sphinx]

It's come up here before. Some Europeans said it was normal. Not normal in US

[radiant vortex]

That's crazy

[smoky quest]

some EU country even explore with anonymized resumes. So it's not uniform either

[fringe sphinx]

Example: #career-advice message

[formal bison]

guys is comp sci as a major gonna make a coemback or are we cooked

[smoky quest]

It never left

[formal bison]

things have been lookng bad for getting a job past year

[pine sleet]

has it?

[radiant vortex]

Wow, @brazen island I'm curious, why is that?

[fringe sphinx]

https://youtu.be/vimZj8HW0Kg?feature=shared

(Obligatory: don't call it a comeback)

[formal bison]

yea ik a bunch of ppl who either got fired or got their offer rescinded

[pine sleet]

skill issue probably

even if not, it happens regardless of the market

people get laid off or fired all the time. it happens

[fringe sphinx]

That's not fair: job market was terrible and massive layoffs last two years.

[formal bison]

idk ive been hearing there have been a lot of layoffs at company

[true harness]

not really though. if you were a new hire there's not a lot you can do if the company is downsizing

[fringe sphinx]

But, market seems to have stabilized. The layoffs were sshadowed by massive Covid over hiring, then triggered by economic stuff

[radiant vortex]

There was a lot of hiring during COVID

[hearty island]

guys, if i got an offer, and i start the 29th. should i inform my boss on the unforunate news i am leaving on the 15th? for a 2 week notice?

[formal bison]

yes

[fringe sphinx]

As opposed to what?

[smoky quest]

2 weeks is a customary notice. Check your employment agreement for what you must do

[hearty island]

that's the thing i don't have access to the employment contract

[true harness]

you can't see your own employment contract ??

[smoky quest]

you haven't signed your own employment contract?

[fringe sphinx]

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE

[hearty island]

i signed it in workday

[fringe sphinx]

And you can't download a copy?

[hearty island]

no, it's no longer available. ay yai yai

[fringe sphinx]

Never sign something you don't keep a copy of. Never. Ever. Never.

[smoky quest]

lesson for next time: always download a copy of whatever you sign

[fringe sphinx]

Contact them and ask for it. Zero hesitation.

[hearty island]

i am cooked chat

[radiant vortex]

at least you know now

[fringe sphinx]

No. It's routine stuff, but you should always keep records.

[hearty island]

okie. thank you guys

[smoky quest]

I doubt it tbh.
Workday is a mess, so it must be hidden somewhere

[fringe sphinx]

I had a company that tried to get me to acknowledge signing a -different- employment agreement at separation.

And the difference was significant.

[gritty rivet]

What does your employment contract have to do with anything? You're in the US right? Two weeks notice is considered common courtesy, and it's usually stated in the employee handbook

[summer roost]

If you're in the US, it's highly unlikely that you have any obligation to give notice. Notice periods are a courtesy, not a legal or contractual requirement. At least in at-will states (and that's approximately every state)

Montana is the only state without at-will employment

[white relic]

I gave one week last time I left a job.

[hearty island]

alr, well i'll contact my recruiter and figure out how to play this

[peak halo]

Not what I expected.

[hearty island]

anyone heard of sterling, the background check vendor?

they're fairly common in the financial industry

[true harness]

i think i used that for one of my internships

[void haven]

does anyone having something similar to a roadmap of how to get involved in data analytics? i am learning python rn as my first language and plan on learning SQL later, bur after that i am lost

any suggestions on internships? or very much entry level jobs? 😅

[fringe sphinx]

Kaggle.com/learn is a good starting point in general, but data analytics doesn't really mean anything. For some
Ppl, that might mean stats. For others, it's spreadsheets. For others, it's a lot of sql and reporting, etc

[void haven]

hmmmmm thats a good point, i never even thought of how ambiguous the title "data analytics" can even be. defintely gonna be checking out kaggle

i figure i would want to go into the area that involves more spreadsheets and/or using sql and reporting though, so if anyone has any suggestions where to start with that to help build a resume and just overall credibility, i would greatly appericate it 🙂

this is coming from a psych major who is still pretty new to this field lol

[tough plank]

Hi everyone,I'm a recent college graduate currently working in a French-based company in a hybrid mode. I want to work remotely, and I've been applying for jobs, but I'm getting rejection emails for every job I apply to. Can anyone please tell me what's wrong?