career-advice

[buoyant seal]

well, not exactly. I simplified it by building it as static site generator. I prerender resources in advance to certain paths
and then my htmx dynamic site queries those prerendered page portions, and serving as client side interactive
that i did to have easy to deploy static assets like html,css, js files
in dev env it works as local web server to provide necessary static asset from memory on a run though

[strange nova]

Hmm I will peruse your code because I understood little of that

[brisk cargo]

this is bad advice. do not do this!

the best thing to do is to just tell the first company that you're interviewing at other companies, and to give them a timeline on when you expect to have an offer from the second company

you should tell the second company that you have an offer, and ask them to speed up their timeline

you should be constantly communicating with your recruiters what stages you're at with the other companies you're interviewing with

there is not really a risk. if you have an offer, the company wants to hire you

[buoyant seal]

explaning simpler. i read all the game files in their format.
Parsed into easy to use data structs in memory of my program
Then templated/rendered them into html pages to different filepaths
A single page serves as interactive one through the usage htmx
This page pulls different sub pages by htmx requests, but they are already rendered static assets at specific web paths provided, thus allowing me not having server side stuff running all the time

[brisk cargo]

that's not really how it works

slow mode so i guess i can't respond very easily. it's actually the opposite -- you getting an offer from another company shows your value

that sort of misunderstands the hiring process

if you get an offer, the company wants to hire you. hiring is an expensive and laborious process. they want you to accept the offer. they are not going to blow up the offer because you're interviewing at other companies. that's where salary negotiation comes in

"i will stop interviewing right now if you give me this number" is extremely effective

as long as you're communicating properly with the recruiter and hiring manager, you will be fine. you're not going to blow it in the post-offer stage. candidates interviewing at other companies is normal and expected. no one is going to be angry that you're considering other options

reneging an offer sucks for everyone. it's not something you should do to reduce risk

[smoky quest]

Anything is fair until the offer is signed. The company may drop you or the candidate may sign somewhere else

[brisk cargo]

re: how long do i have to accept an offer from a company, you should try to not wait longer than a week or two. you're potentially blocking other candidates. exploding offers that are truly exploding and not just a sales tactic are very rare, and also just a sign of a poorly run company.

you should just reach out to the other companies you're interviewing with to let them know you received an offer, and to ask about accelerating your timeline. most companies will be able to schedule interviews that week'

[smoky quest]

If you have an offer, it's common to go back to the other companies and to let them know and ask them if they can accelerate the process. Most of the time they will oblige since it's a signal you passed someone's interview and is more likely to pass theirs.
Plus FOMO

[brisk cargo]

in general, if you're trying to interview at multiple companies to try to play them off each other, or just to keep your options open, you want to schedule all the same rounds at around the same time

so when i'm interviewing at multiple companies, i don't schedule any onsites until i've finished phone screens at every company

[smoky quest]

what do you mean by experimental?

[brisk cargo]

to be clear, emailing your recruiter with “hi X, i wanted to update you on my timeline. company Y has made me an offer. is there any chance we could move up my interviews” is not pressuring a company. it is normal, common, and expected. the recruiter will honestly appreciate you telling them this

[smoky quest]

no that's not how it works.

Once you sign, the company rejects all the other candidates and close out the pipeline.
The candidate will also say no to the other potential offers/companies.
As such, it would be super expensive to renege there.

If a candidate sign, it's with the intention of both the company and the candidate to succeed.

[brisk cargo]

i assume he’s talking about the probationary period common in europe

[smoky quest]

If a candidate fails in the first 90 days, there is something wrong in the hiring or candidate

[brisk cargo]

in the US you are at-will the entire time

[smoky quest]

yeah, in EU it can be tough to get rid of someone

[brisk cargo]

i disagree that risk is something you're meant to be optimizing for here. it's helpful if you assume good faith on the part of the company. they're not trying to trick you or waste your time. if they made an offer, they want to hire you!

it's not a situation where the hiring manager is going to wake up one day and decide they don't want to hire you anymore

[smoky quest]

then burning bridges is not a game you should try playing either

Also the curve is bimodal. Most people struggle getting a single offer. If you are at the stage where you can aim for more than one offer, it's very likely you can get a third

Assuming we are talking accepting the first offer and then reneging on it to accept another one

[brisk cargo]

i think that's tangential. if you are actively on the verge of being homeless, then yes you can optimize for getting money fast. but you have to understand that you'll be missing out on money or other benefits you could have negotiated

if you renege on an offer, that company will never agree to interview you again. which can be a pain, because often some of the best networking you do is when you are interviewing at a company. you meet recruiters and hiring managers -- who want to hire you!

[smoky quest]

and the folks who interview you may remember. The tech area can be surprisingly small

[brisk cargo]

it's a tangentially related, extraordinary scenario

it is not the one you should be optimizing for

[smoky quest]

It doesn't mean it's consequence free 😉

It's more likely to be burnt than not

In general, you have to consider multiple effects:

• You will be on record in the ATS for reneging on it. That means any other manager or person at the company reviewing your future application(s) will see it. So even if you are BFF with the manager you reneged on, they will see it and are likely to reject you
• You have wasted the time of multiple people. The recruiter and the EM. Maybe the EM is your BFF, but they still had to say no to other potential candidates. And they now have to restart the pipeline from scratch. So you have effectively delayed the hire (and associated value they could have created) by roughly a quarter, at least
• The people involved may remember your name. It may not matter today, but in 2-3 years, they may all be at different companies where you could try to apply

And so, sometimes someone is willing to bear these costs. Most often, it's far simpler to avoid the problem altogether by having a healthy job seeking strategy and tactics

[strange nova]

But that company will miss you!

[wispy lichen]

Who here is in computer vision? Just wanted to have a bit of an idea of what type of tasks you guys do, etc. I’m looking to into that rn.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied timeout to @vapid jay until <t:1716085150:f> (10 minutes) (reason: attachments spam - sent 9 attachments).

The <@&831776746206265384> have been alerted for review.

[marsh thistle]

!ban 1089645472395837493 Gore and disturbing pictures.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @proud arch permanently.

[tidal sage]

wha?

[tepid dragon]

yo

[umbral frigate]

!rule ad We're not a recruitment board.

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[blissful lake]

in theory if i downloaded every libary at once how much space would i need?

[smoky quest]

wat

sure. But note also:

• They can ask for a proof
• People doing this have talked to literally thousands of people. So for most candidates who try to pull shit, it may be their first time and may have single or maybe low digit interview experience. But on the other side, it's literally multiple thousands of people. So they have built a shit detector

Also note that it's more expensive to hire the wrong person than pass on an excellent candidate. So there is a bias towards rejecting people rather than taking a chance

Sure. But you also need to do a leap of faith.
Related to that, the latest advances in LLMs and cheating in interviews have also made it more difficult for remote work and trusting people

In general, if you are hiring someone, you want to hope they are good people. You don't want to treat everyone as a potential liar

[harsh river]

last time i tried it i was approaching like 1tb

also, should go in #python-discussion

[smoky quest]

It's a business transaction.
They know you are interviewing in multiple places. Heck, if you weren't, that means you were not that good.
And similarly, you know they talk to multiple candidates

[rapid yarrow]

as 16 what job i can get through python

[umbral frigate]

Probably a paid internship at best?

[smoky quest]

Main thing is that in terms of career, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation.
So at 16, it will be most likely jobs you do for friends and relatives as summer jobs

honesty is best policy

If a company end the process because of it, that's a good thing. You avoided a terrible place.
That's also neither the norm nor the expectations

Remember that anyone can start a company. Tomorrow I can go start my Recursive World Wide Company. And I can decide that the only people who can go through my interview must have their first name start with a R in honor of my company

[arctic cliff]

Hey everyone nowadays there is a lot of competition in the job market. Django jobs are limited, and practicing machine learning requires a very good system. Could you recommend any programming language or framework that has a lot of job opportunities but less competition? I have no problem learning a compiled language as well. I love learning. Please recommend a language for me. I trying for a job for the last 3 to 4 months but not yet found any job I am not interested in machine learning and AI so please recommend me something Thanks

[smoky quest]

There is no magic and there are way too many applicants.
So anything easy has tons of people.

In terms of career, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[arctic cliff]

i don CS degree

ok sure

[smoky quest]

pretty bad.
It's a terrible comparison but it's like stating you are single on facebook when you are in a relationship

[arctic cliff]

i don't post on linkdin i just ask here

let me share my resume

[smoky quest]

another terrible comparison would be like being aware your boss is hiring someone to do your exact job

yeah.
I mean, people will talk.
And from a management perspective, it means there is no reason to give that person bonus/retention/etc. and they should prepare to hire their replacement or distribute their load since they will leave

[strange nova]

Thanks again.

[arctic cliff]

Have you all seen my resume?

[arctic cliff]

what i can do anyone guide me?

[crimson dust]

Hi everyone!
Nice to meet you.
I'm Illia, a web developer with experience in Python, Next.js, React, and TypeScript. I'm excited to start my journey into Data Science and will be taking a course on Dataquest (dataquest.io). If anyone has experience with this course or tips for a beginner in Data Science, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Looking forward to learning and sharing with you all!

[fringe sphinx]

Tips? Don't forget to code frequently. It's easy to focus on studies, and not practice the skills. Be balanced.

[crimson dust]

Thanks

Now I am going to take dataquest course (Dataquest.io). Is it helpful or not?

[gritty rivet]

Do whatever keeps you moving. Dataquest, Datacamp and others have good content. But as you learn the basics from there, be sure to work on your own projects to keep practicing. Kaggle is a good place to get ideas.

[crimson dust]

Thanks. Could you tell me more about Kaggle?

[thin jungle]

I need someone to help me to explain for my assessments

I'll be on voice chat, if anyone want chat with me

[candid ibex]

Might sound stupid but how hard is it to make a Caesar cypher module in python?

[fringe sphinx]

Easy, but wrong channel: ask in #python-discussion plz

[gritty rivet]

Just sign up and poke around. They have tutorials, contests and more. https://www.kaggle.com/

[gritty sage]

How do I learn python in one day for my python exam on Tuesday

[scenic cradle]

btw genuinely whats your take on "is computer science" dying?
like with all these lay offs and oversaturation is programming a dead career?

[balmy mural]

There's a ton of companies still hiring. Just because companies are correcting due to overhiring doesn't mean CS is dying. There have been bigger crashes in the market before and there's still jobs

[fringe sphinx]

Counter argument: computer science is experiencing a surge of interest and influence. There's never been a better time to be a software engineer: productivity, ecosystem, motivation, funding, etc are all at significant highs (or upswings).

"Layoffs" had nothing to do with computer science or programming: it had everything to do with economics.

[scenic cradle]

they hired too many people during covid now they are firing them to bump up their profits?

[fringe sphinx]

No, we got hit by recession fears... everybody thought the market was going to collapse. Then a banking crisis. Then rising interest rates have slowed the recovery.

How many software engineers do you know with actual work experience do you know who are out of a job?

[scenic cradle]

one or two

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I don't think it's dire times for CS. Sure, it's not "hire anyone off the street and throw big TCE at them", but that was never sustainable

That said, I also believe in aiming for excellence: being really good and working hard. People who are looking to coast may have a harder time.

HR? No.

shrug Might be a small company or the HR person is helping another dept.

Oh, for a small company, that wouldn't surprise me.

The HR person is probably also the office manager at that size.

[scenic cradle]

yeah i think its the junior dev market which had a clear devastating impact like i remember back in 2019-2020 people could just graduate out a bootcamp and find a junior dev job
senior dev jobs have no impact ofc

[true hatch]

is 3.5 gpa enough for Ivy League?

[fringe sphinx]

Colleges publish their acceptance rates and typical profiles. You can look it up, or talk to a college counselor: the college counselors have access to this information on a school by school basis.

For example, yale: https://www.prepscholar.com/act/s/colleges/Yale-act-scores-GPA#:~:text=Average GPA%3A 4.13,some report an unweighted GPA.

[gritty rivet]

It will depend on everything else

[true hatch]

Like what?

[median canyon]

So i am trying to earn some money wiht my knowleadge, and i have profile on Upwork, and I am wondering if you could rewiew my profile and tell me what is missing, problem is that i dont have any scholl completed yt, beacuse I am still in highscholl.
please rewiew it.
Link: https://www.upwork.com/freelancers/~01d7cf5d22ce8aeb58?mp_source=share

Thanks a lot.=)

[crisp stream]

!rule 6 | please don't advertise your LinkedIn posts on this server

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[long notch]

how do you deal with code territoriality, is it something you can try to change as an employee at a company or just move on?

[median canyon]

what do you mean by that

[smoky quest]

You talk about it with the concerned person, your lead/manager

[wintry ocean]

First approach the person involved - perhaps they don't realize what's happening. If that fails - go to your lead/manager.

[flint widget]

I need help for a code

[near ocean]

i usually push it deep down and secretly (and not so secretly) hate everyone involved

whats not healthy is trying to improve things and at every step you get friction and pushback for absolutely no reason at all besides "people got comfortable"

besides, i need the hateful sentiment otherwise i'd never leave

[smoky quest]

It's called working with people

Classic "The I in team is in the A-hole".
Nothing will improve if we don't try anything. Furthermore toxic behaviors are contagious

that was not related to your message

more about complaining about folks who complain a lot but don't want to do anything about it

[near ocean]

yea i dont think that applies here

[smoky quest]

yeah, they would not have been asking otherwise

[near ocean]

what would you suggest if they did what you recommended and were stonewalled

[smoky quest]

maybe they are stonewalled for good reason and need coaching and training.

Two people may have a completely opposite interpretation of the same situation. As such, the main thing is to try to work it out, not jumping to more conclusions

[near ocean]

i picked the word "stonewall" for a reason

delay or obstruct (a request, process, or person) by refusing to answer questions or by being evasive.
How do you deal with this besides leaving the company for somewhere better

[smoky quest]

And I did not answer directly for a reason as well.
You are talking about a specific branch, down 5 different branches in the decision tree

[near ocean]

Why 5 branches deep? I've experienced this right at the root

[smoky quest]

It's a number used for illustrative purpose

There are many factors at play here, including but not limited to who you talked to, how you brought it up (ie. were you an ass or dramatic, or being curious and in good faith), what else was tried, how good is your manager or lead, how long the situation has been going, etc.

[vapid jay]

Can you make a windows application in python?

[smoky quest]

Hi!
This is the wrong place to ask. See #❓｜how-to-get-help

[fringe sphinx]

My favorite stonewall tactic is to over-answer. Occasionally I need my client to just 'get over' something, and it's better to give them what they're asking (in excess)

[spring aurora]

Hi, so I started coding as a career (freelance) for the first time this year, for the past 2 years I had been building personal/hobby programs for fun or personal utility and the only thing publicly used were my discord bots

Now my main issue is idk how different professional code is from regular stuff I make, and are there any extra tips yall can offer?

Anything will be really appreciated

[fringe sphinx]

One tip is to hang out in #python-discussion , and you'll hear a wide range of ideas and experiences.

[spring aurora]

Thanks, I'll try to be active
I just joined the server mins ago

[fringe sphinx]

The other is to pick a project in a topic you know nothing about. Ml? Web? Game? Something that forces you out of your comfort zone

!Kim is helpful

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[spring aurora]

Hmm, I always got fascinated by ML and DS but complex Math scares me a lil 😅

[spring aurora]

Thanks alot for this

Been looking for some sort of idea list for a while

[fringe sphinx]

You can use the techniques without a deep understanding: it's fairly accessible, although you'll learn along the way

The tough part is picking a category , since there's many

[spring aurora]

Yeah, the over abundance makes it rly tough

Especially since I'm not working in a company that has a set target

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, it is intimidating, you just have to pick something small enough to do in a short project, imo

[spring aurora]

For now I started with building bots for all social platforms that have an official API for those

I was able to complete a few projects, ik it's gonna take alot of marketing to make that profitable.

Thinking about growing this or moving to something more profitable

[fringe sphinx]

Freelancing is tough

[spring aurora]

Yeah but unfortunately where I'm from the average wage isn't exactly close to the best so I source clients from everywhere I can find

[true hatch]

Is it that hard to get a 4.0 GPA?

[balmy spade]

I graduated high school with a 1.98. I'm always impressed with anyone that achieves high marks in school. Quite a significant effort.

[true hatch]

I believe, anyone can get good marks if they do their work and pay attention

[balmy spade]

And I understand that doing the work and paying attention is a significant effort.

[true hatch]

so, you hated school?

[pine sleet]

depends on you, mostly

[balmy spade]

Hated? No. Was bored? Yes. I did the minimum, down to the hundredth of a grade point, and moved on with my life.

[true hatch]

good point

There are no AP classes in Quebec, what do I do?

[balmy spade]

I am the opposite of a good example student. I also have the ability to look at someone with good marks and say "Dang, that's hard work. Good job."

[pine sleet]

don't y'all have IB? from what i understand it serves the same purpose

[true hatch]

whats that?

[pine sleet]

international baccalaureate

[true hatch]

so its basically the francophone version of an AP?

[pine sleet]

I guess

[true harness]

not really. IB seems to be internationally respected

[terse bone]

Can y'all help me in #1035199133436354600

[true hatch]

wassup young sheldon

[pastel thunder]

Is it bad to even mention you are interviewing at some places, during negotiation i mean

[smoky quest]

no

[smoky quest]

is it different from what was asked previously?

[craggy scarab]

guys good morning i have another question , can a electrical engineer be a great software engineer based on EE study

[smoky quest]

It's like a distance function. The further away from the target, the more costly

[pastel thunder]

Kinda,
Trying to be careful, to get the most out of this.
HR has scheduled meet to discuss offer. Could they force me to say a number before them?

I dont wanna be the first one

[white relic]

You can always refuse to state a number, but they can make it awkward for you to do so.
You need to have at least some idea what you are worth, what you can expect to / are hoping to get, both so that you know what is a good offer to accept and so that if they push you on it you don't blurt out a bad number because you were unprepared.

Another thing to keep in mind is that salary is only one aspect of compensation. Consider vacation, benefits, retirement plan, whatever perks are relevant.

[nova crest]

hey guys can some one help me to find a progect to contribute to?I know python and I want to earn money through programing and can do whatever

[pastel thunder]

Ok, i do know the range they offer for this role,
Can i safely say the upper limit?

I can defend by telling them facts about why i deserve more, but also dont know it it would sound bad

[white relic]

Depends what the range means tbh. Is it a narrow range or does it cover multiple orders of magnitude?

If they hire "junior software engineers" at 85-92k (completely arbitrary title and number) then you can ask for 92k because you're competing with other people presumably about your same level of experience and you can make an argument for why you're probably on top of that range
but if you're just looking at a range for all software engineering titles and it goes 75k-300k then no you should not ask for 300k if you are fresh out of university

[fringe sphinx]

It's not bad but don't expect them to care. It's expected.

[fringe sphinx]

I agree with trentj. This is what they do every day: they are very comfortable / experienced in these situations and you aren't; a power asymmetry. Just have an answer prepared and don't overthink it. If the answer is: I don't have a specific number and am not comfortable sharing my previous salary, that's fine.

[vapid jay]

any tips on improving my GitHub and making it look more presentable other than uploading projects?

[fringe sphinx]

Good readmes, I guess.

[gritty rivet]

Make a portfolio page and/or project pages. Github is primarily designed for managing code, not for communicating accomplishments. The two can work together.

[buoyant seal]

<@&831776746206265384>

[compact jungle]

Hi need help with interview prep for Morgan Stanley

[gritty rivet]

For such a big company, you can probably find discussion online about the interview proxy for whatever specific role it is

[compact jungle]

I tried. But no answer

[gritty rivet]

Well you're not any more likely to find an answer here I'm afraid. You can look for recent hires on LinkedIn.

Of course there are plenty of general resources for interview prep that are not company specific. It's all about whatever else you know about the role

[compact jungle]

Okay thanks!

[brisk cargo]

did you check blind or leetcode comments

[split pond]

I am in university and studying CS. 1-5, 1 is the best and 5 is the worst grade. my gpa is around 3

[dusty moon]

I recently got an internship in the supply chain for Kroger. Is it possible to pivot from this role to a front-end or back-end development position like an internship? Is this an unorthodox approach?

[gritty rivet]

It's a development internship? Then not such a big change.

The less relevant you internship the more you'll have to reach, but it's not like you're locked in to always do the same thing forever

[dusty moon]

@gritty rivet Just hope I don't get typecast into this role b/c my bachelors was in CS.

[gritty rivet]

Most web developers have CS degrees

[dusty moon]

@gritty rivet Yes.

[smoky quest]

The higher in the band, the closer you are ready for the next title

[pastel thunder]

ok to elaborate more on this,
from leetcode post, i have observed them giving

1. 100+% hike to someone with 2.5 year exp
2. 100+% hike to someone with 3.1 year exp

I have also seen, from some website that:

1. They have given my target compensation to someone with 2yr exp
2. They have given 10% less than my target compensation to someone with 0.7yr exp

I have 11 months of exp and will have 1 year 1 month+ exp at the time of joining

So, is it fine to ask my target compensation

Advantages I have:

• Interview went exceptional
• have CVPR publication, pretty rare at graduate level
• Recruiter reached out to me themselves, I didnt apply
• I dont think its that easy to find someone with my level of expertise in entry level role, who also understand models at low level and also has expertise in C++. and these are necessary for someone who is going to work on neural accelerators

Disadvantages:

• Will have to take this offer at any cost, cannot miss it

One Observation: JD shared by recruiter mentioned SDE2, but HR mentioned its SDE1 role.

[last oriole]

How to find python related job as a fresher

[balmy mural]

Likedin, indeed, local job boards, etc.

[south forum]

just a suggestion but could we have a job board section here on this server as i have noticed that there are many business owners right here on this server

[peak halo]

No. Discord servers don't need to fulfill every function, and there's no way to create a job board within the constraints of discord's interface that can compare to the functionality of an actual job board.

We also don't want to moderate such a thing.

Thanks for the suggestion, however.

<@&831776746206265384> please investigate @sour urchin

[fringe sphinx]

This isn't some meme server. Knock it off please.

[inner wren]

:x: The user doesn't appear to be on the server.

[smoky quest]

fyi, a recruiter reaching out to you doesn't mean anything.
As a rule of thumb, people overstate their uniqueness. Everyone is far more easy to replace than they think. There is a famous quote about how cemeteries are full of indispensable people.

The main factors depend if you are negotiating from a position of strength and the type of asks that you have.

[vapid jay]

Should I drop out of high school and do an internship instead?

/sixth form in the UK, it's also unpaid, but it's a cyber security company

I asked them, lmao

I initially asked them if they offered apprenticships, they said no and said they offer internships if I am interested

no, they dont

[smoky quest]

No.

A CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[south forum]

im looking for an internship, anyone drop me any recommendations??

[balmy mural]

LinkedIn, Indeed, local job boards

[pastel thunder]

and how to know if i am not asking too much

[smoky quest]

You could look at https://carta.com/friend/ to get a sense of the market for your location.

Beyond that, it's part of negotiations and having experience in the field and negotiating. There are things that are easy to negotiate on and some others that are less flexible

[pastel thunder]

it does not go above 10 billion + valuation

and how is salary of graduate of top univ justified, if i go by this scale
they are clearly an outliner over here

[gritty rivet]

You said you have to take this opportunity at any cost?

Then don't negotiate. If their offer is reasonable in such a situation, you take it. The risk of asking for something more can be quite low, but it's never zero

[smoky quest]

grids don't go by school you attended but by the role you do

(that would also go against DEIB)

[pastel thunder]

but there is a clear corelation between school and salary, in the same role

[smoky quest]

companies do not have grids based on the school you attended

It's just the school you attend gives you a better professional network which gives you access to better jobs

And that's for the USA. Some countries in EU would have grids based on the school you attend

[pastel thunder]

lets see what happens

finally someone agrees

i believe, its omni present

[smoky quest]

it's not a matter of agreeing or not.
Facebook/google do not have a different compensation based on your school. And so do all the other companies from my peers or the ones I worked at.

Given that anyone can start their company, it does not prevent it to happen by definition, but it's not an industry standard nor practice

[pastel thunder]

My univ is very well know, I have seen it happen almost always

my friends from less known univ report how they are paid lower then people hired from known univ for the same role

may be just true for india

[smoky quest]

I can only speak for USA and EU

India has issues with castes, so I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled that type of shit too

[south forum]

What uni you from?

[pastel thunder]

what if you are the HR?

[south forum]

Bruh

[pastel thunder]

dont wanna say the name in public channel, sorry

[smoky quest]

We don't allow ads

[south forum]

Bro I'm asking for the name of your university

[undone storm]

I am interested

[south forum]

Not yours

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> ads

[kind marsh]

!cban 1226804449683705887 14d We are not an adboard for jobs.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @ornate scaffold until <t:1717440895:f> (14 days).

[plush summit]

you should put a command for that lol have seen you use it too much !degree or smth 🙂

[fringe sphinx]

Some day we'll pin it, I think

[left jackal]

love the confidence hate the attitude

[pastel thunder]

should I focus my talk in terms of CTC or base?

while negotiating

[white relic]

A "100% pay raise" isn't really. What that really means is they are hiring entry level people provisionally at, basically, half wages, and after the trial period (in this case, 2-3 years ish) they get bumped up to "regular" rates. So based on what you see there, you should probably expect to be hired at the discount rate (whatever that is) and get a substantial bump in a few years when they start treating you like a real person.
Personally I find this practice (let's hire you below market until you prove yourself) rather distasteful but I understand it's a common thing in some countries.
(This doesn't really have much to do with your question, just a rant)

[fringe sphinx]

My advice? Don't try to negotiate on your feet. You're an amateur. They're professionals. Hear what they have to say, tell them you need to think about it, and then form a response when you can think about it.

<same advice for buying a car>

[waxen thistle]

Hey guys whats a typical rate for a python developer contractor in the states?
Mostly doing data acquisition from apis and web crawling on a large scale. Not small one of upwork jobs.

looking at an experienced contract position requiring 4+ years experience.

[smoky quest]

where is the job? usa or india?

[onyx igloo]

Anyone here make money from computing?

[white relic]

many regulars do

[onyx igloo]

I don’t know if it’s worth studying if I’m honest (currently done it for GCSEs)

I can see chatgpt4 do everything I can in about 2 minutes, do you guys think this will be a long-term career?

[livid sedge]

Hello, i want a small help to put me to right direction. I have finished a Python Crash Course Book with all project and mini projects. Now im doing cs50x (3 chapter)...
I dont know what to learn at all thats why i went to cs50x to find my dirction.
My question is if the course will help me find what i want to do in cs or if there is anything else i can try.
My computer interests are (or what i find really cool):

• games (pc or mobile)
• app development
• ai/machine learning, but mostly in video games like teaching a ai to play the game
• robotics/automation

i have really small knowledge on most of them so idk what they are like... i just like programming, coding and problem solving.
If there is anything to try out i will be happy for any response.

[pastel thunder]

india

[white relic]

short answer: yes
long answer: generative AI can be a very useful tool for knowledge workers but it is not a substitute for actual engineers/software developers. chatgpt is not threatening the future of computing.

[onyx igloo]

Thank you, but I don’t understand how that works

Chatgpt 5 is apparently 100x better then chatgpt4, if this can already generate complex codes wouldn’t ai just keep getting more complex?

[analog sun]

Do you think chatgpt is writing the next chatgpt model

[smoky quest]

ah yeah, that would change a few things

[analog sun]

Or is it the engineers

[waxen thistle]

ChatGPT is only as useful to bringing code to production as the Engineer writing the prompt. Companies will be very hard pressed to completely replace engineers in the short term. No one can say for certain in the next 5-10 years. But GPT is more of a tool and you need to know how to use it to be effective.

[white relic]

let me put it this way: virtually nobody who is actually developing AI is worried about AI taking their job. They know its limitations.
It will take a lot more than bigger faster language models to make something that can actually replace a run of the mill software engineer.

[brazen valve]

Hello could Someone tell me How to join a Discord server on mobile please ?

[onyx igloo]

Ok thanks 🙏

[brazen valve]

^

[smoky quest]

Hi, you are asking in the wrong place .See #❓｜how-to-get-help

[brazen valve]

Ok

[livid sedge]

someone?

[brazen valve]

But thats not bout python

[smoky quest]

that's not about careers either.
There are the off topic channels for non-python related questions

[smoky quest]

Hi!

In terms of career, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[livid sedge]

thx

[smoky quest]

beyond that, CS50 is just an intro course. You can go to the topical channels and looked at the pinned messages for specific resources on the various topics

[livid sedge]

but still got 2 years untill i can even enroll

[smoky quest]

It's fantastic!
Until then:

• Make sure you keep good grades so you can get in the school of your choice
• Build things and have fun. Make robots, games, websites or even movies. Make your own compression tool or even programming language

[livid sedge]

ok

[leaden herald]

Best advice you’ll see here

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> scam

[jaunty steppe]

!cban 1235254898644353044 scam

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @hazy grail permanently.

[cosmic pilot]

Hello everyone I’m Jack , I’m from the uk and I want to be a software developer or a ethical hacker or basically anything what involves code I am quite young I’m in high school and just learnt a bit of the basics would anyone be able to give me tips where to start my journey or what to do please

[smoky quest]

A degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[cosmic pilot]

Yea im trying my best everyone in my classes always mess around tho and I want to go far in life I enjoy being around computers aswell as dirt bikes but I think I have potential and I want to achieve my goal

[fringe sphinx]

In terms of starting your journey: there's no one place. We can suggest some places to start learning Python/programming, if that's what you want to do.

!res is a nice list of resources: filter on beginner-books-free to start with a small list

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vapid jay]

what do you all think is the easiest field of comp sci to get into (for example frontend, cyber security, data science, etc..)

easiest as in the easiest to get a job in (not the difficulty itself)

[balmy spade]

Technology support.

[vapid jay]

technology support isn't really coding right?

[smoky quest]

no but it's the easiest

In terms of career, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[balmy spade]

It can be. But as recursive_error mentions, it is the easier entry point of technology.

[vapid jay]

I'm in the first year of comp sci right now but I'm a bit worried about the job market of CS and since I'm not the most brightest person, I'm not sure if I can compete with others for a software engineering role

[gritty rivet]

The one you're exceptionally good at

[pine sleet]

don't let that stop you

work hard and build up your skills

[gritty rivet]

Follow whatever's most interesting to you. That's what's going to keep you going

[balmy spade]

Don't cut yourself down before you have a chance. You'd be surprised (shocked even) at the wide spread of knowledge and skill in the field.

[vapid jay]

oh ok thanks for the support guys

[balmy spade]

Anecdotally, I had to walk a senior dev through some curl commands today. Last week I had to call our tier 1 support center for help installing a remote printer. We all have "our thing". haha

[vapid jay]

oh lmao

I'm just a bit worried since I know someone with a masters in software engineering with 3 internships but he's struggling to find a job

I'm really passionate about CS tho and I can't really see myself doing anything else

[balmy spade]

Without knowing their story my mind immediately guesses communication practice and interview practice is needed. But that's my bias. Their story is their own. Yours will be your own.

[vapid jay]

that's fair, I think I'll just work my ass off so I can be a better programmer and hopefully i won't become jobless in the future

[formal topaz]

will doing cp get me hired at fang

[smoky quest]

no

[fringe sphinx]

Unlikely, just like going to kumon won't get you into Harvard.

[smoky quest]

A CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[formal topaz]

i'm doing cs degree rn bro but i'm tryna do cp as a side hustle you think it'll be the thing that gets me into fang?

[smoky quest]

that was already answered

projects would have a higher ROI

[fringe sphinx]

Cp as a side hustle? Who's paying you to Cp?

[formal topaz]

type shit

[fringe sphinx]

Still don't understand what that means.

[formal topaz]

nobody but like it might payoff in terms of getting me into fang if i win contests and shit

[fringe sphinx]

Do things because you're interested. Not cynically just to try to get a job. It doesn't work out that way: if you're not passionate about it, you won't impress anyway.

[formal topaz]

i'm tryna make bread bro

[fringe sphinx]

Sure, find something you like and be the best at it.

Also, likelihood of getting hired at FAANG is ridiculously small. Tech is much bigger than FAANG.

Or, follow the herd. Whatever you prefer.

[formal topaz]

im not tryna follow the herd, i wouln'dt say going into fang is following the herd tbh

[smoky quest]

most kids want to join a faang when graduating. That or making games

[fringe sphinx]

Trying to go into FAANG sure is.

Just like everyone wants to go to a top 5 uni

[formal topaz]

ive unfortunately failed at that bro 😢

[fringe sphinx]

But my point isn't antifaang: my point is pro-passion. Do what you love and be the best. That'll get the attention of hiring managers.

Losing strategy is: do something for the sole purpose of landing a job.

[formal topaz]

bro even if i try to do the former i know i'd be lying to myself cuz realistically i want the latter man

[smoky quest]

Realistically, being obsessed with it will result in you making less.

The field of CS is very well paid overall, so it's a given you will be taken care of.
However there are also many people who enjoy it and will spend far more time than you would since you aren't as interested. This means these people who are more interested will be vested far more than you, have far better skills than you and will have more to show than you. And in addition, their interest will be apparent in interviews and interactions.
This means you will be a lil bro comparing to your competition and likely to struggle

[harsh river]

FAANG is going to be able to filter out the competitive programmers who know how to solve leet code problems, vs programmers who actually have substance in their projects that can be applied to real world problems, guess which one they hiring

[pastel thunder]

HR asking for salary slip

[astral whale]

im gonna have to give an interview for a "Web Data Scraping Company" - https://www.actowizsolutions.com/about-us.php
guys can anyone tell me what to prepare for this

[stray pasture]

I have an interview for Python Scripting and Automation tomorrow, does anybody know like a quick crash course? or recap for the basics from which I can study.

[fringe sphinx]

Did you tell them your current salary?

[near ocean]

You shouldnt give any documentation from your previous employment to anyone until after an offer has been extended and a contract signed

You also probably shouldnt lie to them about what your salary is, just dont give them a number

[final ravine]

Is this for PAYE so you don't get an emergency tax code? (UK)

[fringe sphinx]

Agree. That's why I asked if they disclosed their current salary. (also, speaking from a US-centric experience)

[gritty rivet]

Apparently that's a thing in India? https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/uvqbvf/is_it_most_companies_norm_in_india_to_ask_for/

[left jackal]

Anyone knows any freelance job board servers?

[fringe sphinx]

Read the whole post: "The number of fake candidates that do rounds in I.T. industry, getting candidate's salary slip works as one of the verification."

So, in this case, it's a form of employment verification.

In US, perhaps it's easier to verify employment.

[dull belfry]

hii am only having 9months of programming experience should i search for parttime internships i am going to be on 2nd year soon CS

[dull belfry]

https://github.com/ZLaTaN003 my github.. i been learning web dev still learning can make crud apps not that good with frontend frameworks have to learn frameworks.. but i can create minimal sites with django. i think i should continue to make projects explore django and learn more frameworks?

[near ocean]

In the UK, your future employer will eventually receive a P45 form which has your previous salary (kind of) on it
But asking for it before you've started working for them is suspect
They'd probably use it to low ball your offer, dont give them anything yet

[gritty rivet]

Do both. Search and apply for internships but keep learning

[gritty rivet]

On Discord? No. Freelancers use Upwork, Fiverr, or their own professional network

[dull belfry]

i had applied to some freelancing but no one cares. these internships coming on linkedin ryt?

ill start a profile there

[gritty rivet]

Right, freelancing without experience and reference customers is basically impossible

Where to find internships may depend on location but LinkedIn is a good start. We use Handshake

[vapid jay]

Anyone who is using python within data analytics/ business analytics role- How does it go?
I am transitioning my career and therefore interested to know use-cases of it

[gritty rivet]

I would search for such people in your local area via LinkedIn. They will have the most relevant advice.

[pastel thunder]

Yes

[fringe sphinx]

And did you tell the truth?

[slow warren]

hello

Im A designer

im joining this server to collaborate more with other developers

and help you get the app looking better !

[wheat hatch]

My role is not strictly data analytics but a lot of the work I do is data analysis.

I use python as one of the tools to produce visualizations of data that our systems output. Either for investigative purpose, analytical purposes, or during troubleshooting.
A few years ago I used a language called R for most of this, mainly because R is very good at tabular data. Python with a module called Pandas does pretty much everything that R does but better, and can do a lot more, so I transitioned over.
Right now I'd say python is one of the best tools available for this purpose.

That being said, R is still used a lot in legacy systems from what I hear. So I don't regret learning it.

[pastel thunder]

yup

[vapid jay]

Great!! Thanks a lot

[late jacinth]

Let’s find a good job for me

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, then nothing to worry about. I think it's reasonable to say that you'll share it after you've got the offer.

but doesn't really matter, since you've already given them the info.

[south forum]

im looking for beta testers for a project of mine, im not paying anything. where can i look for such people?

[smoky quest]

Hi,
We don't allow ads

[vapid jay]

Yes. Asking for salary slip is industry standard in india @fringe sphinx

Too many scamsters

All employers also have access to a government portal which they can use to verify your employment history

Background checks involve your home address verification, contacting previous manager and coworkers and sometimes criminal background check

Lot of companies also do a mandatory face to face interview round. This is because lot of candidates try to cheat in online interview

[south forum]

not an ad im asking where can i find such people

[smoky quest]

Let's avoid ambiguous phrasing 🙂

The best place would be communities of people who suffer from the problem your app is solving

[south forum]

its students

would reddit be a good place?

[smoky quest]

as good as any. But also your school, your neighbor kid's school, the cool boba place where the cool kids hang out, the college cafeteria, etc.

[south forum]

mmhm

[smoky quest]

For instance, facebook started by focusing on a single college

[smoky quest]

tax, health care, retirement benefits

You don't get a home address based on it

[wheat hatch]

Sometimes they use it to verify if you are truthful or not. If you say A and it turns out to be B when they check the government records they know you didn't tell the truth.

Sounds stupid, I know, but believe it or not some people fall for it

[smoky quest]

it's required to work with you

[wheat hatch]

Depends on the company. I have never worked for a company that didn't ask.

[smoky quest]

you were also an edge case since you mentioned having your own company in order to be able to get paid internationally

And the employer probably latched on your own company. Then up to you to be legal within your own structure

note also that EU has no concept of 401k, has very different concepts of health care.
There are also different tax processing. And a company needs a tax id for each state in the USA it employes people and country where it employs people.

And so that's part of why they do need to know your address so they can process your pay and benefits correctly 🙂

And yeah, that's also why they prefer to contract a foreign company than hire you out of your country, because it's less hassle for them

it also means they cannot treat you as an employee

lol yeah, it can be a hassle

[devout cliff]

Guys, which one of this: Data Science, Data Analyst, Business analyst, AI, Machine Learning is the easiest to get a job in?

[gritty rivet]

Titles are vague, and what's easiest for someone else might not be easiest for you

Data Analyst and Business Analyst are probably the least likely to expect an advanced degree beyond just a Bachelor's

[devout cliff]

You know, dowcet, I am not aware of how the market works. Is a degree necessary anyway? Why would recruiters choose a candidate with some degree, is it just for confirmation that that guy is responsible if he was able to get bachelor's degree? The thing is I study really really well at university and my university is ranked as one of the best in my country. Still I might get kicked out of it because I had a big conflict with the wrong people and to be honest I am afraid that that progress I made will not be noticed if I don't have bachelor's degree... :( I mean, I have grades, which are good... I can prove that I have good grades... Still I am not sure that's enough

[kindred oyster]

Yes, a degree is important
to get a job , degree would be the least resistance path

[devout cliff]

Why is it important? Can I get a job without it?

[kindred oyster]

well it shows that this person is able to go to college, do their work , study , learn new things and do it consistently for 4 years.

CAN you get a job without it ? Sure

is it easy to get a job without it for a normal candidate ? Absolutely not

[devout cliff]

And if I am still a student? Is it much harder that way?

[kindred oyster]

a lot of companies have a bachelor's degree as an entry to barrier usually in the initial application screening round
so even if you have skills , your application will get automatically rejected

[kindred oyster]

it is hard to get a job without a degree regardless , even if you are a student or not

(unless you are already working in a related field and want to shift ig)

[devout cliff]

So if I don't have any, the best thing I can do is to get whatever I can in a related field, say some internship or something and then shift?

[kindred oyster]

not really sure what a best approach without a degree for you would be since i dont have much info about you nor do i have much experience in the aspect

maybe someone else who is familiar with such a switch would be able to pitch in the convo

[smoky quest]

A degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation.

So forgoing a degree means you are about to do life in extreme hardcore difficulty and work a lot more for less opportunities and lower pay

[gritty rivet]

I don't know how things work in whatever country you're in but in general I would say you want a) to do what you have to do not to get kicked out and b) transfer to another school if that's not an option

You want to finish your degree and you want to get good internships before that. You do not want to just give up on finishing your degree because of some interpersonal conflict

[fringe sphinx]

There's a big difference between "necessary" and "really very super extremely important".

[fringe sphinx]

Similarly: sure, you can get a job. Will your options be limited and will you be at a disadvantage? Yes.

[devout cliff]

Which means getting a degree should be my priority for now

[fringe sphinx]

For sure. Degree is most important, followed by practical learning on your own (projects, reading, etc), followed by networking (your best bet at getting a job is through someone you know)

[devout cliff]

Is the university I get a degree from important too?

[zinc ridge]

is anyone here intersted in ML?

[kindred rock]

Yes. But it's more about your country.

Like in Russia, for example, most universities aren't up to international standarts.
So having a degree from there is... Kinda meh. If the company really cares about it.

[fluid owl]

i wanna be a plumber

[kindred rock]

So you started building CI/CD pipelines.
And only after 5 years of working as DevOps realised that it's not the plumbing?
And they lied to you?

[fluid owl]

uh

what

[kindred rock]

:D

[fringe sphinx]

In US, not really. If you go to a top 5 school, sure, it'll open some doors... but most people don't, and they do really well.

(My point is: not going to top 5 doesn't hurt your career)

[hearty island]

dumb question. how do you indicate that you've graduated on your resume? do you just put your grad month + 2024? or do you write it more explicit and put graduated somewhere?

[gritty rivet]

Look at the Jakes Resume sample in the pins. If you have a gap to hide less detail is OK, but otherwise that's a good standard model

If you list a degree and an end date in the past like that, it's assumed that you graduated.

[hearty island]

Yea I mean June is coming up anyways so I guess I’ll just leave it as is

[true harness]

an end date

[true hatch]

What AP's should I list for?

[gritty rivet]

You said to indicate that you've graduated... You mean to indicate that you're about to graduate? I would include a word like "anticipated" or "expected" to make that clear if there's any doubt, but you're right that June is close enough

[true hatch]

im talking about what AP classes should I list for next year

Im thinking Government & Computer Science

[fringe sphinx]

That's a highly personal decision. If you're interested in computer science, the main recommendation is to prioritize math first. Calc is a big part of freshman year.

[vale ore]

what kind of careers can i get with just knowing python and some math? (and some network/devops skills)

is the sky really the limit?

[true hatch]

I like government too

politics is 🔥

[true hatch]

what math?

[vale ore]

let's imagine i taught myself up to calculus

[true hatch]

depends on what majors you are interested in @vale ore

[vale ore]

i think either civil engineering or computer information systems

i'd love to go into a scientific field like botany or chemistry but i'm not sure i have the time or the money to get a degree in iether one of those that'd be worth the investment

[true hatch]

for CIS, Data Scientist and Software engineer pays a lot of money

[wet orbit]

Can I ues python let the arduino development board recognize the QR code and trigger specific actions based on different QR codes, such as controlling the switch and brightness of the light?

[kindred oyster]

this channel is not suitable for this question (read the channel description for what this channel is about ) , ask in #microcontrollers instead

[plain spade]

dumb question, but is there a sort of beginner channel?

[kindred oyster]

#python-discussion welcomes all kinds of python questions , regardless of the level
you can ask there

[plain spade]

okay, thank you so much

[buoyant seal]

Technically every channel is beginner one. But for the most beginning questions #1035199133436354600 and often enough #algos-and-data-structs should be preferable

[plain spade]

thank you

[vapid jay]

Hello

So I'm interested in becoming a software engineer and I'm learning python, but what particular aspect of python will I need to learn??

[true harness]

send an email

[gritty rivet]

interested in becoming a software engineer

Then you should get a degree.

If that's not an option, you need to build a portfolio relevant to the jobs you'll be applying for. If you want to know what skills you need to get hired, look at job listings in your local area.

There are also Python and other relevant roadmaps over at roadmap.sh

[vapid jay]

Thank you

[fringe sphinx]

What do you mean by aspects? In terms of learning python, it's pretty much: learning the basics (syntax/etc), then learning the intermediates (getting good through both learning & projects), and then learning specific skills (like data/machine learning, web dev, games, etc).

[buoyant seal]

to add to BillyBoby..
Besides syntax and projects you are suppposed to learn things like best pratices of your languages
Reading smth like this https://www.amazon.com/Clean-Code-Python-Refactor-legacy/dp/1788835832

Learning unit testing
https://www.amazon.com/Test-Driven-Development-Kent-Beck/dp/0321146530
https://www.amazon.com/Unit-Testing-Principles-Practices-Patterns/dp/1617296279
This is average tool for general code quality to have some kind of sanity for code growth and maintanance.

It will be very nice if u also learned a bit of generic software engineering things how to write code better
https://www.amazon.com/Code-Complete-Practical-Handbook-Construction/dp/0735619670
This book has plenty of recommendations how to improve yourself further in every direction

and then learned static typing on strict mode and after code architecture could be nice too

===========
Otherwise yeah, syntax => projects / get familiar with ecosystem of stuff to implement things with (Backend framework, database clients, CLI,GUI and etc builders and etc)

[vapid jay]

anyone know the best Android to do app that works with Google calendar

[balmy mural]

Probably google tasks, but that's not a relevant discussion for #career-advice

[vapid jay]

Lol, I didn't know where to ask, anyways , tysm

[vapid jay]

If I'm struggling to get through the basics of C, is this a good indicator that programming may be over my head? I learned some programming through Python but now I'm taking a course that involves C and it's really hard. I don't want to waste anyones time and this place is good for honesty.

[regal axle]

There are many different types of programmers and jobs. For one, you don't actually have to be good at C to be a successful programer. It helps to be able to understand those topics though. But the other big thing to keep in mind, is that learning takes a long time. It can take people many many years to become a beginner master. Easily 10.
So it taking a long time // struggling isn't a sign of anything. The bigger thing to pay attention to, is why you are trying to get into programming. And how your struggles make you feel.
For example, if all you care about is money but you are not good at it; you will have a hard time. (still possible but hard). If you are doing it becuase you find it fun (or any other synonym) but you are not the best, this can be fine. Because at a certain point, a good engineer / developer, is someone who has enough experience in a given topic. So really, it is about if you can run a marathon and not about if you are having a hard time right now. Do you want to even run the marathon?

You can see that skills are all over the place, given that many successful programmers don't know anything about math. While others use very complex math. Point being, there isn't one skill set that makes you a good or bad programmer. The field is much more vast than that. If that makes sense

[gritty rivet]

Nothing is over your head if you're persistent enough

I'm a full time programmer and I've never touched C

Programming is hard. Expect it to be hard and if you're willing to do it anyway, you will

Incredibly rude and incredibly common. Get used to it and move on 😦

[true harness]

after 11 interviews i've never been ghosted after one

[leaden creek]

Hi

[vapid jay]

Wow, thank you very much for responding with depth. I completely hear all your points and these are great things to mull over. I obviously have my thinking cut out for me because I don't know if I want to run the marathon yet. I'm going to do a lap with this in mind, thanks again.

[true harness]

i wasn't trying to argue. there are many reasons why someone might not respond within a suggested timeframe. 2 days is quite short; maybe they just had some other really important thing come up

[vapid jay]

Understood, I know C like every other language isn't always used or even touched by a lot of guys in the field. I don't want to use it as a metric unless I have to, so I hear what you're saying. It may not even be relevant or a good way to measure programming efficiency.

[regal axle]

@vapid jay For me; if you find yourself drawn (at least to some degree) to that feeling of creating some complex thing or solving some complex problem, these are great signs that you will excel in this industry.
For example: if you are having a really hard time with understanding what a pointer is and then after bashing your head at the problem for a few days, you finally understand it - how do you feel when that happens? Do you feel super accomplished and happy (in that moment)? Are you drawn to that feeling? Or is it just a pure checkbox feeling; as in you feel accomplished becuase you have one less item on your list of things to learn.
There is no single right answer to this meta look. It is more that you should try to be conscientious of how you feel about the work to help guide if your thoughts about the work.
And there is no rush. This industry isn't going anywhere anytime soon. You don't have to make a huge life decision now. And even if you do, you can always change your mind later.

[vapid jay]

Thanks much mate, I appreciate the time you took to respond to me diligently.

[analog sun]

Hello, your message has been removed for violating both rules 6 and 9 regarding advertising and offering to pay

[true hatch]

I need help, my biology teacher assigns too much work and it's due at the end of the class

[hexed charm]

https://discord.com/channels/267624335836053506/1242968968566804480

[dreamy shadow]

If the task was to compare two data science models under different architectures (Boosting vs NN), would it be fair to call it champion/challenger as a resume bullet point?

[true hatch]

im failing 😭

[smoky quest]

my interpretation would be that the champion is the one in production that is being challenged?

[smoky quest]

Hi!
Let's not spam other channels and let's keep the discussions on topic

[dreamy shadow]

Yes, that's correct. The champion (boosting) being already in production, with a proof of concept model (NN) as the challenger.

But I'm not sure if champion/challenger or A/B testing really applies to swapping out models since the term is more geared towards marketing.

[smoky quest]

A/B testing has nothing to do with marketing

For instance, A/B testing features is super super super super common for engineers

[dreamy shadow]

Right, like changing a website feature. So that's why I'm not sure if champion/challenger or a/b testing aligns with comparing two DS models with different architectures. I'm not sure what the term would be then.

[smoky quest]

It also depends on the implication. Talking about a/b testing may have an implication of being inline with actual users

[gritty rivet]

That's what happens when you're on Discord instead of studying. If you have a Python question you can ask in a help channel #❓｜how-to-get-help

[true hatch]

No, if i continue, ill fail

[hearty spade]

I am a beginner in Python. I want to learn Python to develop games. Please give me advice. A good guide(book) would be better for me. Thanks.

[smoky quest]

Hi!
This is unrelated to this channel.
You should check out #❓｜how-to-get-help as well as #game-development

[eternal summit]

hey so i’m taking about getting into AI dev but im not really strong with math, how necessary is math and what do I really need to know to succeed

[pine sleet]

mathematics is very common, especially in AI/ML, and careers in these fields often require a Master's degree which often includes a fair bit of higher level math

[dark thunder]

in short he’s basically saying ur cooked

[harsh remnant]

Me going into CS thinking I dodged math and just code all day when in reality CS is just another math degee

[eternal summit]

what level of math are we talking though? how advanced ?

[astral whale]

Saw this post on LinkedIn, I'd like to share it here because I'm struggling as a fresher myself

[broken spade]

Is anyone here just beginning their journey with learning python?

[brazen island]

Depends. I think you could quite feasibly make a career out of using existing ML APIs which requires no math, the next step is using and extending existing methods, which requires your typical engineering mathematics and the next step is creating novel methods which requires a deep understanding of math. I'd say there's something for everyone nowadays.

[queen sandal]

Yeah I've only been doing it for about a month

[pallid sedge]

same here

[novel viper]

Yes Just started few monts ago and loving it

[tidal sage]

kuhh-ree-uhhh-rrrr d-ee-s-cuh-sshion

[fathom peak]

I am so happy I'm not part of a development team. It sounds so frustrating to constantly run into simple problems with simple solutions you're not allowed to use.

Corporate programming is hell.

[fathom peak]

Like is it normal for a development team to force multiple entities in an information pipeline to change the way they operate just so they can write their software?

[fathom peak]

This is less about proficiency and more about red tape.

[near ocean]

Why cant you use simple solutions?

[fathom peak]

Beats me.

Because they say so?

[near ocean]

Who said so? I've never been stopped from using simple solutions before

Its preferred that way

[fathom peak]

Idk I'm not on the development team.

I work in production, but development can't just reproduce the functionality of a tool that was made 20 years ago. I mean they clearly could but they're not allowed because reasons.

[white relic]

Sometimes when you don't see the whole picture, it can be hard to know what a "simple solution" is. What you see as a trivial programming task might actually be a problem at a higher level.

[fringe sphinx]

There's some sort of curve to this, above a certain point (mastery) you tame the complexity.

[fathom peak]

This is definitely true, but that makes me all the happier that I'm not in development.

[white relic]

Red tape is almost always there for a reason. If you don't know the reason, it doesn't mean the reason is bad.

[fathom peak]

I develop my own tools for personal use and I don't have to answer to anyone for how they're made.

[fringe sphinx]

This is famously true. ERP implementations are notorious for it. There were some massive disasters... Nike and Gillette iirc

https://www.cio.com/article/264637/enterprise-resource-planning-nike-rebounds-how-nike-recovered-from-its-supply-chain-disaster.html?amp=1 is the Nike example

That's probably a fair take... Similarly, I might be 'senior' in some topics, but I have to start over when using a new stack or domain. Perhaps I can acquire faster with related experience, but I still need to learn it.

[fathom peak]

Tl;dr there was a bug in the software that orders things from the factories?

[fringe sphinx]

No. The software/systems integrators basically required people and business to change to adapt to the software. Unrealistically.

[fathom peak]

Which in turn caused ordering errors?

[fringe sphinx]

Search 'erp failure' and you'll see many stories like this

[fringe sphinx]

Or delays or people not using the system, etc.

[fathom peak]

What does erp stand for in this context?

[fringe sphinx]

Enterprise resource planning

[fathom peak]

Like, all this tells me that there is merit to, uh, not let development dictate a production process.

Although I understand that the introduction of new technology can also be a good thing, that decision shouldn't come from development.

[fringe sphinx]

It's -supposed- to be a team effort.

[fathom peak]

Yes.

[obsidian ether]

Hello

[fathom peak]

Basically I work in one part of a production pipeline. Development is in charge of creating a more modern tool to replace our 20 year old one. However, since we are just one part of the pipeline we are constrained by the specifications of other parts of it. But development just can't make their old formats work within modern paradigms. If they had their way, every part of the pipeline needs to change.

[fringe sphinx]

Yup, this is a classic story in engineering, one that often leads to cost overruns and project failure.

[fathom peak]

I know they could easily rig up a solution so that the old format could continue to be used. But that brings up a bunch of concerns, red tape wise.

And honestly if you ask me, there's way more risks in overhauling the pipeline than there is in hacking a solution that maintains the status quo.

[stiff pollen]

would a bachelors degree help to get a career in python ?

if say it's a degree in engineering ?

[peak halo]

what kind of engineering?
Not only would a bachelors degree help start a career as a developer (who uses Python)--it would be very challenging to do so without one. But the degree should probably be in computer science.

[stiff pollen]

Thanks for the reply! It's in mech

[peak halo]

and you already have it? or you're working on it currently?

[stiff pollen]

I'm currently working on it

[peak halo]

but you're sure you want to work as a developer, and not as a mechanical engineer?

[kindred oyster]

where are you from ?

[stiff pollen]

I did my studies in Canada, and I already have a diploma in that field, so in a way, I don't want to waste it

[dreamy shadow]

Canada's market's kinda rough rn from what I've heard.

Anyone notice edits/changes for Outlook meetings now show up in Teams activity? They used to show up as emails and it keeps throwing me off since it makes me think I missed a message.

[slender copper]

Hi so im interested in beginning a cyber security carrer. i am 17 y/o, these are the steps i have taken
I am currently studying a T-Level in Cyber Security. 17-19 I have an AS-Level 16-17 and a GCSE 14-16 in Computer Science
At home i am learning python, linux and studying for comptia a+ atm

What would my best next steps be. My current plan is to finish my t-level then begin a cybersec apprenticeship with a banking firm. Im not sure if this is my best option so any input would be appreciated

[gritty rivet]

You probably want to focus on getting a university degree.

You also want local advice. If you're thinking about some specific apprenticeship program, I would look for graduates on LinkedIn and talk to them

[slender copper]

alright thank you mate

[broken spade]

I just started it 5 days ago , its to early.

[broken spade]

I am just doing it from 5 days it's to early.

[novel viper]

make sure that whenever you finish a topic or learn a new things make project or anything on it. It will help to a lot

[vital topaz]

Hi Everyone!

I was recently promoted to SDE-2, but I'm being pushed towards managing people now.
I'm looking to explore new opportunities.
My tech stack includes Node.js, NestJS, Python, Flask, TypeScript, MySQL, MongoDB, and Redis.

Can anyone who recently switched jobs share insights on how to approach a job switch in this market?
My location : India

[broken spade]

Ok , i am learning about string now.

[broken spade]

Is it possible to make project on it?

[novel viper]

I don't think so you can do that

its just a basic you will use string in every program

[broken spade]

Yes

[broken spade]

Yes

[broken spade]

I just have 3 months i want to learn python , I m giving my 8 to 10 hours to it .

[novel viper]

Honestly if you give this much time than you will become pro in python in just one month

[broken spade]

How much time u give to learn it

[novel viper]

I haven't gave much time

I started learning 1 year back

but I didn't took seriously

but from last three to four month i am learning and practice daily 1 to 2 hours

[broken spade]

I have holidays so I thought to do it now.

[novel viper]

By The Way what you do?

[broken spade]

I m studen .

[broken spade]

Which course u r doin?

[gritty rivet]

https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-software-engineers/

[vital topaz]

Thanks for the article

[lavish wing]

code in leet code or build projects

[peak halo]

Projects.

[lavish wing]

why not leetcode

[pastel thunder]

both should be manageable

[peak halo]

Leetcode is about solving stand-alone optimization problems. Which you will never do in "real life". Whereas projects are open ended and give you the freedom to learn and apply lots of different skills.

[pastel thunder]

i think a majority atleast ask basic DSA atleast if not complete leetcode style

[pastel thunder]

had an HR round, I said I expect between x and y
Considering mean (of x and y) is z, the HR herself said "let me mention, z to y is your ask"
And said recruitment team will connect with me,
What to expect? why didnt she said x to z?
My interviews went great, could it be because of feedback?

[vital topaz]

Actually, You tend do use DSA in real life.
Personally I have used BFS, Sliding Window, Queues. This kind of work is highly appreciated as well.

[harsh remnant]

Do certificates matter to get a job. Like what if I got this HarvardX (online free Harvard basically) Professional Certificate in Computer Science for Artificial Intelligence, would this improve my job chances? Or should I just keep making projects?

[vital topaz]

Being someone who doesn't have a CS background and no actual certificates. They are not necessary to have, your coding profiles like github, codeforces or any freelance profile.
They do make you standout. So, if you have to spend time then I would advice you to spend time in making coding profiles and making some really good projects.

[pastel thunder]

any advice on how to negotiate?
Recruiter probably gonna call

nop, not confirmed yet

I mean does it really hurt to say "it sounds good, can you do x stocks, because I have seen you offering the same else where"

ok cool
lets say they offer you 0.8x
what would you say next

lmao, lets say its 0.6x then

and you can always accept 0.6x right?
Its not going anywhere, right?
or can they be frustrated?

even when you negotiate individual components?

damm dude, exception or usual?

i actually left reference section blanch

i filled the form two days back, should I fill it?

so i am fine till they ask, right?

my reference will boast a lot, they like me lmao

they are a very busy person, so i didnt mention

hmm

[fringe sphinx]

It doesn't hurt, as long as your request is reasonable

[slate scroll]

hi

[smoky quest]

It won't hurt in the sense they will just tell you no and not rescind the offer. But it may hurt in how they perceived you.

People may get different amounts of stock for various reasons:

• They chose to have more stock for less salary
• The company is at a different stage and stock being more valued, new employees get less of it
• You are not the same person than that other person

<@&831776746206265384> scam

[open ivy]

I wish less people believed they had to work. Because then it would be easier for me to get a job, and my coworkers would be happier on average.

[peak halo]

If we assume that climate change doesn't ruin everything (it will), I think autonomy will bring us to a point where the demand for human labor is far below supply, and something along the lines of UBI will be required.

people do have to work, because the perceived value of someone's labor is the main way that resources are allocated in seemingly every economy.

[open ivy]

It seems that many skilled jobs are less needed.

• Art: Replacing more and more with AI art.
• Artisans? Mass production.
• Coding? Copilot.

Coding itself is at its core self-replacing, an ideal program would not need coders to maintain it!

Meanwhile, there are many low-skill jobs which seem to not be disappearing:

• Driving. Uber, delivery etc.
• Simple cooking: where automation VC money goes to die.
• Shelf stocking: I don't see any robots in my local Safeway.
• Lab tech: Described as "zero brain cells" by an Emerald employee in, despite Emerald supposedly having cutting edge robots.
• AI training: Huge amounts of menial man-hours here.

I wish menial jobs paid better than fun jobs, since the work is crappier. I think some assembly line work was well compensated back in the day because it was so boring no one wanted to do it.

[balmy spade]

I think that if people worked because they wanted to versus because they felt the need to that you would have even more competition.

Coding itself is at its core self-replacing, an ideal program would not need coders to maintain it!

We'll keep an eye our for that ideal program.

[wheat hatch]

Where is this ideal program? I have never encountered it.

All the programs I have encountered have been stupid things that can't do their tasks correctly

[open ivy]

As someone who likes coding itself, I guess that could happen.

My work ethos is a midpoint between do it for the money and for the labor of love.

Those just wanting money are more toxic (more likely to be dishonest) and so less valuable.

So in theory, I should have less competition this way.

But in practice what happens is my enthusiasm seems to repel people who hate the work itself. Maybe I can change this?

[balmy spade]

You can almost always change yourself.

Those wanting money are not more or less likely to be toxic than those working in their passion field from my experience. There are many different reasons a person would be just "working for money".

Heck. Given the opportunity for it to actually pay a livable wage, I'd leave technology and go back to retail. Technology is my passion, I can do that on my own time. Retail was fun, but it didn't ever once pay enough of the bills.

[wheat hatch]

Having money is also fun. You can put food on the table, buy stuff that you want, go on trips with your family. I get the "Passion before money" philosophy. I felt the same way in my early 20's.

Then I wanted a house for my hobbies and suddenly money became important

[open ivy]

I see two, seemingly contradictory trends:

• Countless GitHub users put their software out, try to advertise it and everything, and it gets ignored.

• It's very rare that I encounter anyone who wants to talk, in depth, about their passion projects in programming.

I just don't get, with all these ignored people why there seems to be almost no demand for attention?

[cinder nimbus]

any recommended projects for data analyst or data scientist

[wheat hatch]

Kaggle's full of em.
https://www.kaggle.com/datasets

[buoyant seal]

Ideal program does not exist 🙂
Or at least a product is ever changing as long as business is running.
As business needs another edge to compete and attract attention so programs change.
As more users and data appear, so more intricate infrastructure and code is indeed to meet demands.
As more code growth and scalable, so more new difficulties araise.

Coding allows informational systems to grow in complexity to infinity essentially
Code gets always new born, growing, deprecating and dying
Essentially world of software is kind of like digital universe from movie Matrix in how it is alive and interconnected

[cinder nimbus]

tnx

[smoky quest]

I guess it requires many conditions for it to happen.
For instance I would be more than happy to dive deep into some of the projects I care about, but that either does not match the interests of the folks on this server or has a depth that the majority of the members don't necessarily care for (majority is still teens here).
And beyond that, some of these projects might just simply doxx me

[open ivy]

I wish what you were saying was true in experimental biology. Most PhD students I met needed just a couple hours of Excel per week for data analysis. They needed 40 hours a week of following step-by-step instructions (lab protocols) all day with as much precision as possible.

[open ivy]

I would like to as well, and am willing to listen, but I agree this server isn't ideal. Is there a better server somewhere?

[white relic]

you don't appear to distinguish between "doing it for the money because I love money" and "doing it for the money because I have to eat and put a roof over my head and this is one of the few things I'm good at"

[smoky quest]

matrix/irc have more mature communities. Beyond that, other mailing lists or specific reddit communities can be interesting. Mastodon can also be an avenue. albeit more limited than the others

Am not entirely satisfied by the state of it either

[buoyant seal]

Having successful project is like having TikTok channel with many subscribers.
You can get lucky and it will become one
But in dozen times more cases u need to be experienced dev building smth people really need in a good quality.

For project to be met with success u need to build smth really new in functionality or quality, and meet demands people have.

=======

As for encountering rarely people capable to talk with passion about their project... Many people here are only starting and teenagers and etc. To build successful projects u need to be having a lot of your lifetime dedicated towards programming path and having time and energy after finishing work shifts. Such amount of people is small, that have both expertise and energy.
And capable to find what people really need

It even takes marketing skills and effort if necessary to make it famous 😁

[open ivy]

I would say that in either case, if money is the only motivator, it makes them less likely to be friends with me. But in different ways.

• The greed motivator will lead to dishonest behavior, etc. They won't care about my "less worldly" ideas such as physics engine designs or quantum cognition models.

• The desperation motivator will make people too stressed to care and overwhelmed.

I would say money is 50% the motivator for me. I am balanced.

[balmy spade]

Motivator for what?

[white relic]

People have basic needs that take priority over being friends with you.

[wheat hatch]

Quite a lot of projecting going on there

[open ivy]

If you can reach out to people who are overwhelmed with life, and they RSVP to you, that is a very good deed to do! A little stability can help people a ton. I wish I was better at doing this.

[white relic]

I mean, I guess "all those people who don't do their job for the love of the craft can starve and die so that I don't have to compete with them for jobs" is a coherent statement

[buoyant seal]

80%-90% of programming for me is often not coding itself, but learning documentation or digging in other ways information how task can be accomplished 🙂
Ergh at least at work.
In pet projects it can be pure coding often enough straight in a row

[wheat hatch]

I can only speak for myself but the reason I don't talk about the majority of my projects here are very similar to what recursive said a few messages up. People aren't really that interested, but I'll happily discuss them if someone that is interested comes along.

[open ivy]

I wish there was a better safety net so they didn't suffer so much.

[white relic]

Sure.

[open ivy]

Biology isn't that way all that much. Yes, there is a little digging and researching papers. But the sheer manual labor eats up so much time.

[buoyant seal]

Manual labor in programming is proportional to code quality standards and level of workflow modernity.

If coding standards are dreadful, no unit testing, and infrastructure is completely manual in its configurations... There will be a lot of manual labor to maintain it and debug

Usually manual labor workers in IT are called System Administrators, Manual Quality Engineers, Help Desk Support and every other dev role can be too (some low quality full stack dev and etc)

[open ivy]

That's why I like programming. You can escape the tedium. In biology you can't. You have to pipette all day and there is little to no robots available.

Biology is beautiful in many ways. But I can't find a home there.

[open ivy]

Did you find a place where you can talk about your projects? Of course it goes both ways and you have to also be willing to listen

[wheat hatch]

That's just straight up false. The reason why there's so much manual labour in biology is that a lot of biologists are tech inexperienced. One of my projects was automated algae bloom detection using image processing. None of the biologists had even considered tracking algae using a camera. They all had to get into their boats, take their water samples, etc. It's working stupid.

[kindred rock]

I can agree on that.
On my startup it started to be somewhat common when something breaks that was fine before.
Tests are very important.
I always write them now. :D

[open ivy]

Agreed. Programming a a process optimization problem.

[kindred rock]

I gotta say that dude recommends some books every now and then.
Listen to them and read some of the stuff.
It's nice.

Although some books are too big and much for beginners.

[wheat hatch]

I talk about em in dedicated fora where people are already interested in the topic

[open ivy]

Nice! Are you willing to share a link?

[wheat hatch]

To which forum? I have many hobbies.

Biology folks I meet irl and talk with. We have no online forum so to say.

[open ivy]

Any coding hobby of yours will do.

[wheat hatch]

Radio and data analysis stuff then. Radio is also irl, data analysis is one of the areas people here sometimes talk about.

But it's quarter to 1 so I need to hit the bed

[open ivy]

Hardware stuff I do need to know better we can talk more when it is daytime in both our timezones.

[echo cape]

would this imply a deadline of 5pm, or midnight? in regards to a typical take home assignment?

[peak halo]

you'd have to check the syllabus. if the syllabus doesn't specify "all assignments are due at hh:mm on the due date", I would assume it's midnight.

or is this a take home assignment for a job?

[echo cape]

it's for a job

[peak halo]

then it probably means that they want to have your submission at start-of-business tomorrow.

what timezone are you?

[echo cape]

they are pt, i'm ct

[peak halo]

well, it's past 5pm in PT now. I would aim to finish it in the next two hours or so.

[echo cape]

I put a note that I'll continue tweaking; the submission including github links; so that allows me the flexibility to continue working.

[steep plinth]

Does anyone have any books they could recommend for Javascript? I know I can use resources from the internet too. It's just I would like some reading material too

It's career focused. I'm asking for book recommendations so I can use it for my career path

[brisk cargo]

does an ebook count? https://javascript.info/

[steep plinth]

Absolutely! Thank you for this!

[broken leaf]

My major is management information systems, what jobs can I get into the IT department

[clear edge]

Any Indian can guide me on how can I get a job with good lpa without jee and that shit just purely based on cse

[kindred oyster]

to get a good job , you need a be/btech degree from a good college where companies you want to work at come for placements
you need to give JEE or BITSAT or VITEEE or your state entrance exam or similar entrance exams to get admission into such colleges

if you end up in a college where placements are not good , you need to be hyper active about growth , constantly improving your skills , doing work , building connections , participating in hiring competitions / challenges , cold mailing, applying to 100s of companies, get an internship and so on

going without a degree in CSE field is highly not recommended because the chances of you getting any job are very slim and the path is exceptionally hard

you are better off swallowing this bitter pill of preparing for JEE and land in a good tier 1 college and then you will have a very easy time in finding a job with good package

[clear edge]

😔 ok thanks

[gray iris]

Hello! Is data science and degree required to get a job in python? Can I still get a job without knowledge of these two? I want to be a software engineer and start with python, first for hobby then for a job. I just want to make sure it's worth it for a job. Help appreciated! Have a nice day!

[icy portal]

depends on what you want to work with and where

[gray iris]

Poland, preferably Django and backend web

[icy portal]

Okej, moge zapytac kolegow z polski

[gray iris]

Keep it English please

[icy portal]

😕 ok

[gray iris]

Me too from Pl

[icy portal]

i'm Ukrainian.

[buoyant seal]

Python Backend can work too. Plenty of API codes to shovel around in python ^_^

[icy portal]

python is good for hobby stuff, but if you want to do backend dev you should probably learn more than just python

made a website recently for a Uni project, had to do SQL stuff and HTML/CSS

[buoyant seal]

technically it can work for serious prod... we have millions of code line in python. it can scale. :/
There can be just a little bit of lack of satisfaction

[gray iris]

I know intermediate html, css and basic js

[icy portal]

i meant that it does, but you need to know more than just python

so, if you do want a job, look what's being hired most in your region, and do a simple course in that

[buoyant seal]

realistically for easiest path of resistance @gray iris if u want to work in development... best to get degree.

without degree... it is possible, but easy to land only less "quality" jobs like System Administrator, Quality Assurance, or Frontend devs often enough too (despite front being quite challenging work), or Wordpress(CMD) dev and etc

[gray iris]

Is front really harder than backend?

I want to full software architect and I probably don't want js because of the fact, that changing to another language will be very hard

[buoyant seal]

Yes and No at the same time. it has different set of challenges.
it is common to have easier frontend development if concentrating only on layout/style problems
it is common to get entangled into a complete mess if your front is full of React/Stateful complexity without good typescript coverage or unit testing

It is more common among backend devs to get proper code quality of having stuff unit tested at least. easier untangle in my opinion code from framework.
But plenty of bad coders in back too, for them backend as hard as front.

[gray iris]

The designs are too hard for me, I found it demotivating and it's a bigger problem creating design than implementing the crud for me. I hate design layouts for now

[buoyant seal]

There is room to make front very simple, if choosing a right tool.
Like... if u don't actually need heavy interactive client side with modern js frameworks
U can build stuff simply with htmx and templ-go and enjoy static typed quality front that is easy to unit test and has pretty much almost no code related to unwrapping data at client side

[gray iris]

It's not popular for a job - everyone is react 😥😥

[buoyant seal]

well... i described common frontish option for backend devs.

[buoyant seal]

frontend devs are needed to be frontend to fight complexity of modern js frameworks i guess 😄

[gray iris]

Oh ok. It's good way in that case. So.. is there good backend language not requiring a degree from uni?

[buoyant seal]

there are job roles having less need for degree. U can do them with plenty of different languages
for backend role u are encouraged to get degree regardless of a language u chose as primary one

[buoyant seal]

Like... would u trust a doctor being a good one if he did not get a medical education? Are you willing to risk hiring person that did not have 4-6+ years of training at least and not having basic fundamental skills covered for sure and learned to learn?
So can u trust a person to be a good dev if he did not get CS education?

[gray iris]

What about QA? I found it very fun, but then I looked at an article telling that testers are receiving trust not enough to work properly, there are less job offers and less respect, more stress etc

[buoyant seal]

i see as a common trend seeing female people being often manual QA in my country. Not sure how much it is gender neutral/equal job.
Manual QA is essentially without coding job, it can be not very satisfying.
Although there exists automated QA, as more advanced option. May be more pleasant.

[gray iris]

High requirements, boring, stress and hard job, AI, easier job burnout....

[buoyant seal]

anyway due to low barrier of requirements, it should be not a problem to get without degree

[gray iris]

https://testerzy.pl/baza-wiedzy/artykuly/plusy-i-minusy-pracy-testera-oprogramowania this article is in polish, but use google translator for cons (minusy) and I think this is very real in Poland

Poland's job market ofc

[buoyant seal]

i will mention that u can maximize QA job to better way
If u will have good communicating skills
and learned automated E2E testing, with stuff like Selenium+Pytest or Cypress and etc, smth

I would guess using any automating tools is better than using none in any choice

Probably makes sense going js/ts stack for QA people
As they often test js front anyway

[gray iris]

What about cybersec? Is it very hard? It's a very good paying job and in Poland in demand

[fringe sphinx]

Hard is a tough thing to answer for any field. Once you acquire the skills and experience, I'm not sure you'd call a skill 'hard'. So your question really is: is it hard to get a degree / is Uni hard?

[gritty rivet]

Almost by definition, if something is well paid, then it is hard. Expect hard.

Is a given path realistic for you? That ultimately depends on if you're willing to work hard enough for it. Find people in your local job market on LinkedIn or whatever doing what you might want to do and ask them how they got there.

[balmy mural]

Cybersec will generally also require at least a degree plus doing some of the fundamental certs in your own time

[fringe sphinx]

FWIW: There's a wide spectrum of QA jobs. Most QA teams I work with are fairly technical: not simply 'manual' but not SWEs... but ive also worked with strong QA automation engineers (peers of SWEs) and also pure manual testers who are kept away from anything technical.

[buoyant seal]

(CC@gray iris )

So there are almost two entirely different QA types in terms of work duties, which are just named with same label

[eternal vigil]

Hey can someone tell how can I learn python easy efficiently and free ?

[broken spade]

@krishnavarma0173 even i want to know.

[kindred oyster]

!res pick up automate the boring stuff with python ebook from this website and start learning

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[broken spade]

Thanks

[paper musk]

Hello greetings to everyone, Does anyone here open for a Collab in python? I'm a new to python and willing to learn.

[gritty rivet]

I had to read this a few times to realize you weren't actuallt asking about Colab 🤣 https://colab.google/

Check out the resources list to start learning https://www.pythondiscord.com/resources/

And check out #python-discussion

[paper musk]

I am asking for a guide or a mentor

Anyways thank you

[kindred rock]

It's gonna be hard to find someone willing to put their time into you.
People get paid for teaching, you know.

Best you can do is to start doing something yourself and start attracting others with your curiousity.
Maybe become friends with someone who is smarter than you eventually.

[gritty rivet]

People are incredibly willing to help here when it comes to solving specific problems, but it's true that if you're looking for a tutor to hold your hand, you should pay someone

As for mentorship, the mentee normally leads the relationship. The more clearly you can say what you're trying to accomplish, the easier you can identify a role model and ask the right questions. If you're starting from zero you need to learn the basics first and then start building stuff for some specific purpose or another

[true hatch]

what is the job of a Data Scientist?

[gritty rivet]

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/math/data-scientists.htm

[blissful needle]

Yo guys

I am dev earning low lol want guidance xD

[peak halo]

Hello, you'll need to be more specific. Like what country you're in, what experience you have (including education), and what your goals are.

[blissful needle]

Pakistan, 1 year in python and django, graduation in process 2nd year

[small ivy]

For all new folks interested in learning python you can start with this playlist.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-osiE80TeTskrapNbzXhwoFUiLCjGgY7&si=XGcjMEi-jCbadxPf

[gritty rivet]

It depends what guidance you're looking for but I would look for local graduates of whatever program you'll be graduating from on LinkedIn or whatever to see how they're doing

[blissful needle]

I am graduating in bachlor computer programming

[native carbon]

.

[frail cargo]

if i know good python and i am 16 and i have made many complex programs even a damn new programming lanaguage, Malware, Websites and stuff is there any way i can make money online except freelancing since freelancing just has too much competetion

maybe there is a Companies that hires ppl online

[buoyant seal]

Can u demonstrate portfolio you offer? With git repositories

[cedar stream]

im applying to a university right now, my 1st major is software engineering then ce then ee. should i proceed with this or is se in a bad position and I shouldnt? this is very important

should i put ce in 1st instead?

[buoyant seal]

SE is more software engineering pure 🤔
CE and EE are more hardware dedicated.
Why would u say SE in bad position? In my opinion it is stabely in good one and more universally applicable

in the end best to choose the stuff u are better wishing to work here for 🙂
Motivation is a good boost to learning speed.

[near ocean]

Assuming CE is computer engineering i dont see how it would be markedly different to computer science for anything to matter in the long run

[gritty rivet]

Titles are vague, look at the specific programs. Look at their graduates on LinkedIn and how they're doing. Look at the job market in your country etc. Most of all think about what work you want to be doing. If software is really what interests you, don't let the short term business cycle push you into EE if that's not what you actually want to be doing.

[cedar stream]

Im scared about the lay offs and over saturation and people calling se not a real engineering, so I'm thinking maybe putting ce above it so atleast i have hardware knowledge incase software is doing horrible like now.

[wintry ocean]

I wouldn't care about what people call something.

[fringe sphinx]

Who calls SE not real engineering?

It's different than other types of engineering, but I think that ship has long since sailed.

[cedar stream]

Well even then as I said there are layoffs and over saturation

[fringe sphinx]

Do you know why there were layoffs (sorry if I sound patronizing... I have an opinion but want to hear yours first)?

[cedar stream]

Yes because during covid companies were hiring too many and after it ended they didn't need as much anymore so they layed them off, also maybe because they are afraid of recession

[fringe sphinx]

Ok, then we agree 🙂

[near ocean]

4 years ago the market was great, what makes you think 4 years from now the market will still be subpar

[fringe sphinx]

I don't see it as an oversaturation problem, it's part of the natural ebb and flow.

However, I will say: There are also probably a lot of people who entered the field with, I dunno, subpar skills and times may be tough for them.

in other words: I don't see an oversaturation of qualified/degreed/good engineers... but it's a big industry.

[cedar stream]

do you guys have full time jobs? Have you faced the market?

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, my kids going to college next year, I've been doing this a while. That doesn't mean I'm right though: this isn't an appeal to authority.

[cedar stream]

Are your kids going same route?

[elfin rover]

Hello people.

[fringe sphinx]

He's going to split CS / finance, and see what he likes.

He's interested in finance, but I don't think a pure finance route is a good idea... back it up with some technical skills. But, I'm a SWE so I'm biased.

[cedar stream]

Okay so how about I place ce 1st option then se then ee?

[cedar stream]

I agree with that

[fringe sphinx]

CE is a solid field... but, I do think there's more SWE positions out there than CE and EE.

So, if your decision is purely job prospects, that might be a factor to consider.

I know it's complicated... similar (to what my son's doing), whichever path you choose, balance it out with some other skill

[cedar stream]

Thats true but ce can work in se, also I have already been coding for years and I can self study a lot of stuff so I dont need to take a pure se route

[fringe sphinx]

Yup, a lot of it is how you spend your time / out of class learning.

[cedar stream]

Btw how about MIS for your son?

Its business and tech

[fringe sphinx]

He didn't really consider it, he is interested in some finance and quant topics, but didn't want to go the math route.

[cedar stream]

oh ok well good luck for him and thanks for the help im literally applying rn

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, also: don't stress it. Most schools make it easy to switch.

I started as a EE and switched to CS

[cedar stream]

Why did you switch??

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, I hated it, and loved my time in the computer lab.

[cedar stream]

Yeah honestly I'm not that interested in ee either but its safer and the closest thing to se and ce

[fringe sphinx]

Ironically, my mother was a software engineer and told me I shouldn't do CS.

Parents are doomed to give bad advice.

[cedar stream]

😂 yeah thats so true

Well you are a parent now..

[buoyant seal]

😎 i was lucky to have the opposite. My mother caller me "hacker" (as having computer skills beyond regular user) since my teenagehood at least.

that built my confidence, i can do everything in IT as long as i put enough time. That keeps me driving through many days problems, as I believe!
https://youtu.be/3WfR87K5zW8

[cedar stream]

Lmao

[wintry ocean]

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1984/08/12/The-slogan-of-the-60s-radicals-was-once-Dont/4703461131200/

Generational gaps are eternal. :P

[gritty rivet]

I don't know why but I LOLed at the image of college students leaving an Abbie Hoffman talk to go watch Dallas on TV.

[wintry ocean]

It's completely absurd.

[gritty rivet]

I would guess more college students today actually know about Hoffman than about Dallas. (If I ever saw Dallas I was probably a toddler)

[haughty root]

What are the most important pip modules to learn for a career as a pro python dev in some engineering space?

[spice cobalt]

The PIP module that lists more applicable languages for the real world

[wintry ocean]

json is fairly ubiquitous

[fringe sphinx]

There's no great answer here, but perhaps look at https://pypistats.org/top

[gritty rivet]

Just focus on learning to do stuff. Most packages are trivial or dependencies or specialized for some purpose

Obviously if you're looking to do a backend web learn at least one framework well

[haughty root]

Industrial engineering, process and system control, factory automation and robotics.

[halcyon pike]

Hello, I would appreciate some advice.

I’m familiar with python and javascript(both react and node), I played around with postgresql, mongodb. And I would say I’m somewhat comfortable in my ability to code.

I’m 22 years old and thinking of pursuing computer science in university. But I have two concerns:

1. I wasn’t serious in highschool and literally flopped almost everything. Now that’s not so bad of a concern (imo), because I can go to local community college or adult learning centre and pick up pre calculus and grade 12 English, and couple grade 12 courses, and technically that’s what I would need to enroll in first year university and then in the first year or seconds year I make sure I do calculus 1 and 11, linear algebra, and statistics & probability before declaring comp sci as my major. To get the pre requisites before joining Uni, I would need roughly 5 months to clear these courses. Is this a good approach?

2. looking at the reviews on comp sci, a large number of students graduate after 5+ years, because of waitlist and math heavy courses, as much as I would not like to admit, it scares me cause I don’t know what awaits me since comp sci is a lot of math theories.

Should I do community college and transfer over from associates degree, or get those grade 12 courses and just go straight to uni.

Currently I’m doing a pre Calc course on udemy, and the prof seems to be really good and she has a series from pre Calc to Calc to linear algebra to discrete maths

[gritty rivet]

It might depend where you are. Based on terminology I'm thinking maybe Canada? In any case, try to get local advice.

From a US perspective I'd say if you can afford to go straight to university without many $10Ks of debt, that's probably best. But associates and transfer should be ok if it's a lot more comfortable financially.

[halcyon pike]

Yes Canada

[gritty rivet]

If you're looking at specific programs (either CC or uni) see what graduates are doing on LinkedIn and reach out to them

[halcyon pike]

This sounds like a good idea, I will try it. Thanks

The thing is with community college, I will still need to do the pre Calc after I transfer over to uni, because the upper level courses need calc1 and 2, linear algebra, statistics, and discrete maths

[fringe sphinx]

There is a high national (us) freshman attrition rate in college, across all majors, and a relatively high 5 year graduation rate (vs 4), so this isn't specific to CS

[fringe sphinx]

Second: calculus is hard for students who: don't have solid study habits, are overwhelmed by college transition, and have weak algebra skills (calculus is not hard in and of itself, it's the algebra that gets you)

If you can take calc 1 and 2 ahead at a local college, even by itself over a summer or something, you'd make freshman year far easier.

I'm speaking from experience: I was a complete freshman flop.

Separately, learning to program will also take some pain off freshman classes.

[halcyon pike]

🙏 thank you for the response

It was somewhat overwhelming tbh

[fringe sphinx]

Most uni's offer summer sessions. My son took calc 1 and 2 at a local college during HS and had no issue transferring it to his college

[halcyon pike]

I can be done with pre Calc, and Calc 1 and 2 probably by the end of this year and by 2025 Jan enroll for first year uni. I’m confident in my focus compared to what I was 4 years ago when I had no direction. But I heard comp sci is not even about programming, it’s the math that gets you

I don’t know how much math is needed or what I could be looking at. Is it enough to know Calc, linear algebra, discrete maths(for some reason everyone is saying discrete maths is where people get slaughtered)

[fringe sphinx]

I think that's (the math that gets you) is exaggerated. I'd say it's being a freshman that gets you.

I liked discrete, I don't recall it being that bad. Calc kicked my immature ass tho.

[halcyon pike]

For my comp sci program, they need to do only Calc 1 and 2, stats, linear algebra( apparently these course are pre requisites for most year 3 and 4 courses)

So I should probably try doing the pre Calc, and Calc at local community college, instead of doing 2 year diploma and transition to college?

Do you think that’s a better idea?

[fringe sphinx]

Some public colleges accept the two year diploma very easily. My state U does. Others schools might make you take certain classes, so there's some efficiency loss (taking a few extra)

So, if you're in my state, a community college to public is really easy. I think acceptance is even automatic given a certain gpa

[halcyon pike]

I’m in Canada and meeting with a local community college advisor next week, I will ask if admissions is automatic to the unis we have in my province

But in their diploma course, it’s focused on hands on software dev, there is no calc , stats or linear algebra

I might need to do them over a summer as well so there is extra time trade off there

Btw I will post a screenshot of the courses at the cc

[fringe sphinx]

It's really just about efficiency: do you end up having to take extra classes and not get full credit for all the classes you took. If it's uncertain, then knocking out prerequisites and transferring them before a 2 yr degree might make sense

[halcyon pike]

Here are the courses @fringe sphinx no maths

[wintry ocean]

My advice to you: if community colleges there are anything like community colleges here in the US: definitely ask the counselor but follow it up by doing your own research.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, and maybe also ask the admissions office at the 4 year Uni you're interested in. In US, they'll sometimes publish which courses transfer automatically

[halcyon pike]

Yeah tbh, Im meeting with counsellor next week and from my discussion here, I have gotten a lot of ideas or questions to ask in my meeting

[halcyon pike]

Thank you! Btw looking at those courses, is that a solid program as an employer?

[wintry ocean]

Well good luck. I went to a community college (several actually) and I learned a lot.

[fringe sphinx]

Yes, I like that curriculum. Very practical, relevant and diverse.

[fringe sphinx]

But remember that to get good at programming requires practice (on your own). School isn't enough.

[halcyon pike]

You did several diplomas? Or you went to several community colleges for their different courses

[halcyon pike]

I appreciate your time! I could use the summers to speed up self study projects

[wintry ocean]

The latter. I used community college to fulfill my general education requirements before transferring to a four year university.

[halcyon pike]

I think that’s what I’m facing(maybe), did you do a diploma or what kind of courses did you take before transitioning to uni

[wintry ocean]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersegmental_General_Education_Transfer_Curriculum

[halcyon pike]

That looks like a smart financial move, i can say for sure the uni is way more expensive for the same course at a community college👀

I might just do all the first year courses at a local community college and transfer over

[peak halo]

if you do "community college and then transfer to a four-year university", take into account how quickly you can complete both phases of the degree. If community college -> 4y uni means that the whole process will take five years instead of four, you have to subtract your first year of projected earnings from your savings.

(that is, you might lose money doing community college if it means you start your career later.)

[halcyon pike]

The cc itself will take 2.5 years with coop, so that is that. The other options is What if I’m transferring over credits or meeting pre requisites, it’s smaller classes in cc and I guess more personalized

Btw as a graduate student, when people say the third year and 4th year classes are math intensive, what do they mean, like a course with the name of “advanced analysis and design of algorithms” requires discrete maths, calculus and strong math backgrounds

Do they mean the assignments are about maths or the course itself can be technically considered another math

Another course is “Automata Theory and Formal Languages” apparently math is needed

[peak halo]

if the experience that you get during the coop is valuable and relevant to your goals, then it's worth the graduation delay.

you'll want to look at the courses you take during community college and see which courses they count for at the university. and then, of the remaining university courses, you'll want to see how quickly it can be completed. If course A requires B and B requires C, then it takes at least three semesters to finish A.

[peak halo]

that's probably where you'll learn "true computer science", including concepts like turing machines. it has... limited applicability.

[halcyon pike]

Yeah they mentioned that in the course description, what kind of math am I looking at 🥲

[peak halo]

"true computer science" (not software engineering) is a branch of theoretical math about algorithms, how algorithms can be represented, and what problems they can solve.

[halcyon pike]

Hmmm, interesting

[halcyon pike]

Is there coding or it’s proof?

[peak halo]

depending on how they decide to teach it. for my version of that course, it was only proofs.

[halcyon pike]

No wonder they had discrete maths on there as a pre requisite and statistics and calc and linear algebra

[peak halo]

discrete math tends to be one of the first theory courses that CS students take. I'm not quite sure why they want you to take linear algebra, but it's good to know if you want to go into ML.

[halcyon pike]

My maths skills from pre calc as of today are technically non existent(I mean not all pre Calc but some of it), if I go and do pre calc, then learn calc then linear algebra and discrete maths, do you think it’s enough or there is more math needed, just a major in comp sci

[peak halo]

don't worry too much if you "didn

fuck

don't worry too much if you "didn't like" pre-calc. but also, don't write yourself off as lacking math skills.

you'll have to take calculus relatively early in the program, I would expect.

[halcyon pike]

And yes they want calc 1 and 2 and linear algebra (probably) before declaring major in comp sci

Thank you @fringe sphinx @peak halo @wintry ocean , I will come back here if i need more clarification

[frail cargo]

all project are not private but most are in my git

https://github.com/KazimFedxD

[haughty root]

Go actually write applications, contribute to a used codebase, and prove you can program.

What most employers ultimately care about is if you can program what they need programmed. A degree gives some credence.

A portfolio is actual proof.

[vital beacon]

Why do you want to get a degree when internet already has everything?

[smoky quest]

A degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[vital beacon]

why

[smoky quest]

why not?

[haughty root]

Is it? It costs your most valuable asset - Time

[vital beacon]

why yes

[smoky quest]

It's an investment rather than a cost

[haughty root]

And plenty of people with CS degrees have trouble getting jobs too

[smoky quest]

even more people without degrees have issues finding a job

[haughty root]

The investment has a cost, still. That non-monetary cost should not be ignored.

[vital beacon]

Principally, why does the source of skills matter instead of just skills!?

[smoky quest]

the value added should not be ignored. Hence it is an investment rather than a cost as the expected value is far greater

[smoky quest]

different ways to acquire skills generate different outcomes

[strange nova]

Will take time no matter what you do

[haughty root]

I knew kids in high school employed by companies to program for them. You don't need a degree. You need to be able to program. We have hired programmers with freaking masters degrees that couldn't program worth anything.

Proving you can program is what is required. That is what gets paid.

The only reason, imo, to get a degree is if you want to work for a consulting agency that requires degrees for their employees.

[vital beacon]

No. Skill is skill. How can source make any difference?

[smoky quest]

It's no different than saying "working at a hospital".
The brain surgeon will have a different background than the janitor. And a different paycheck

[haughty root]

yup, precisely. Either way, you either can get the job done or you can't.

[haughty root]

It's entirely different. Doctors are licensed.

False equivalences are bad.

If you need a license then get a degree. Software engineering requires no such license.

[smoky quest]

because there are things you do not know that you do not know

[smoky quest]

Software engineers are licensed in some countries

[haughty root]

lol no way

That's sad af if true but wouldn't surprise me tbh

[vital beacon]

One can just check a university curriculum for that. And do university grads know everything? No

[smoky quest]

different jobs have different requirements

[haughty root]

There's literally nothing to license for programming

[smoky quest]

yet, self taught will rarely open any textbook. They will mostly focus on picking up a javascript/react course

[vital beacon]

There should be option to test out of courses without attending classes in uni. Learn it by yourself and test out. Get degree in 6 months if you want. That’s how it’s supposed to be.

[smoky quest]

It's a protected term and practice in some countries and as such requires a specific license

[smoky quest]

Considering that most degrees take 3-5 years, anyone doing it in 6months would have missed tons of knowledge anyway

[vital beacon]

And what if they do?

[haughty root]

I can't find a country that licenses software engineers, can you show one??

[strange nova]

Then the uni wouldn't get $750 per course hour or whatever that is 😅

[smoky quest]

then their skills aren't even in the same class than someone with an education

[haughty root]

Fake news

[smoky quest]

skill issue

[haughty root]

I think it has to do with risk aversion and confidence. Those that are risk averse and unconfident will want a degree. Those that are willing to take on more risk and have the confidence will get a programming position without one.

[smoky quest]

sounds like skill issue

[vital beacon]

I mean, what if they do open textbooks? And if people don’t open textbook, which is just another way of saying they don’t have enough curiosity, critical thinking, fuck-around-and-find-out mentality, that’s a failure of high school.

[haughty root]

yeah if you're trying to be pro you use the best sources which often include text books

[smoky quest]

That the problem of the candidate.

[vital beacon]

So what? That’s a cheap thought for an institution meant for learning. Also, competition should have made that service available anyways. Why is there no such college that makes that service available just to beat the competition?

[smoky quest]

It's a valuable service 🙂

[strange nova]

The institution is half racket that lines investment portfolios, half learning

[smoky quest]

not at all

[vital beacon]

For which they can charge. If they charge 750 for a course, charge 100 for just an exam.

[smoky quest]

nothing prevent anyone from opening their own school or exam and to get it certified

but again, skill issue

[vital beacon]

And why do people not revolt? It’s different for CS grads but if you talk to people of any other major they are like “Oh uuu cAnNoT jUsT tEsT oUt coLeGe inVolVes a lOt oF sOciAl dEvelOpmeNt”

[strange nova]

People don't want to be martyrs with their own lives, they'll let you do it

[vital beacon]

It’s different to be martyr and different to just agree or disagree with something. They don’t agree.

[strange nova]

If you don't agree, then you're going up against the status quo when it comes to hiring

[vital beacon]

and?

[smoky quest]

Every job ad has thousands of applicants, most of which with awesome degrees, great internships and awesome projects. There is no reason for a self taught to rise up with their todo app

[vital beacon]

That’s not what the conversation is about. It’s about, why. not. just. test. them. out?

[smoky quest]

That's exactly what the conversation is about.
If you have thousands of applicants, you have zero reason to talk to everyone

It's all about 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏

[vital beacon]

I’m not talking about the job market. I’m talking about credentialing system. Why not just test them out?

[smoky quest]

there are equivalence tests and programs

[vital beacon]

Nope.

[smoky quest]

yep, just need to look for it.

[vital beacon]

Yeah the same way according to you some countries have it software engineering regulated. No there are no bachelor equivalence tests except in maybe a few asian countries like japan or china.

[smoky quest]

sounds like a problem for your country

[haughty root]

Well due to competition you can actually get a CS degree for pretty cheap from an accredited uni. Georgia Tech does a masters for less than $10k iirc.

[vital beacon]

which country are you from? I’m from canada.

[haughty root]

The biggest perk of having a degree is being able to demand a higher wage

[haughty root]

Yeah he's bullshitting, there are no programming licenses

[smoky quest]

Great country! See https://engineerscanada.ca/news-and-events/news/engineering-regulators-reiterate-licensure-requirements-for-those-using-software-engineer-and-other-it-titles for an example of licensed title

[vital beacon]

And we still got a bunch of irrationals spending hundreds of thousands and then demanding the govt “Forgive our student loans😭”. Why don’t those same people demand “Test us out we don’t want your education”. Everything is there on open coursewares.

[balmy spade]

You cannot carry the title of engineer in some countries without a licence.

[smoky quest]

It's a well known fact. Easy to check too

[vital beacon]

That doesn’t make it illegal to work as software engineer.

[haughty root]

Lol no software engineer is actually a licensed engineer

[balmy spade]

It means you won't, in those countries, without the license and the education the license requires.

[vital beacon]

That perk shouldn’t exist. Employers should care about skills, not pieces of paper.

[haughty root]

Why do people want free shit? Seems like an obvious answer

[haughty root]

Eh it exists due to the market which is perfectly fine

[smoky quest]

papers are one way to demonstrate you have acquired a specific set of skills

[strange nova]

https://tenor.com/view/taken-set-of-skills-particular-gif-24468765

[vital beacon]

You just can’t call yourself engineer. You can still make apps. Or design computers. Or anything. This thing is in almost every country, nothing new.

[vital beacon]

And there should be more ways. I’ll just repeat it for the 100th time now. There is supposed to be an option of “Testing out”.

[smoky quest]

You have to look at it from the other way around. It's not about what skills you have specifically, but the skillset they require for the job and who matches that

[balmy spade]

Yes, nobody said you can't work on your own stuff. In some countries you cannot have a professional job with the title of engineer without said mentioned licenses. As was the topic I was contributing to.

[haughty root]

Right they just call you a Software Developer

[smoky quest]

In theory, sure, why not.
In practice, it doesn't happen

[haughty root]

That's what certifications are

[smoky quest]

certs are worth nothing for software dev

[vital beacon]

And when did I say it happens. I said that’s how it should happen. Why does nobody raise a voice? Is that too much of a revolutionary idea that only I could think of. I couldn’t even find a reddit thread on this, “Why not just test out?”. It’s common sense. How could nobody think of it?

[smoky quest]

It's a very naive idea.
Now you have to get through the steps of establishing what to test, how to test, how it compares to the existing, convincing people of its worth, etc.

[balmy spade]

In my not so liked opinion, software engineering should be a trade skill. We should need certification, have mentorship programs, and have similar licensing as other trade skills. (but most of us don't so 🤷🏽‍♀️ )

[haughty root]

Gross

[vital beacon]

You can’t get cert for calculus III. Or Automata Theory.

[balmy spade]

I know right? Having a clearly defined path for entering into the workforce? So gross.

[haughty root]

Then no one cares about it much

[strange nova]

In lieu of a degree? Sure.
People can go and weld things for $100k with less practice than I've put in 😂

[haughty root]

The digital world is not so clearly defined and stagnant

[smoky quest]

the jobs that pay well do very much.

The self taught jobs, not so much, but they also don't pay the same, nor offer the same career path

[balmy spade]

Have you priced out the cost of the welding trade skills?

[vital beacon]

Tests already happen. It’s nothing new. You can take the same test that university students take. Also, CPA, Law Bar Exam, PT, all of them have a standardized exam.

[strange nova]

I think it was free if you went to trade school during high school 🤷‍♂️

[smoky quest]

then be the change in the world you want to see

[haughty root]

All this will do is increase poverty

[balmy spade]

I agree which is why I think we should be. We're coming up on 100 years now. We could define quite a lot.

[haughty root]

Why does it need to be defined? Let the markets be.

It's funny how everything becomes politics 😂

[vital beacon]

What do you mean by “ self taught jobs “?

[balmy spade]

Because it will start to kill more people than it already does when done poorly by those untrained in easy to prevent mistakes. Further delving into that topic is for OT though.

[haughty root]

He's having a recursive error

[vital beacon]

How?

[smoky quest]

jobs that do not require someone with a degree

[vital beacon]

How?

[smoky quest]

Start one way to assess the skills equivalent to a licensed engineer or bsc in cs

[haughty root]

And like a good politician you're appealing to non-existent fears to instill tyranny in the name of the greater good

[vital beacon]

Is there really something like self taught jobs paying less even after you accrue experience?

[smoky quest]

absolutely

[balmy spade]

No. I'm stating proven facts with provable statistics. Programming can kill. Just the same as poor wiring in a house can. 🤷🏽‍♀️

[haughty root]

Lol yet most critical infrastructure runs on Windows. It's okay, keep the gov out of it.

[balmy spade]

There is nothing here to continue with so we'll leave it there.

[vital beacon]

There’s WGU for that.