career-advice

[fringe sphinx]

Not every SWE makes more than 100k.

[peak halo]

There aren't jobs that value knowing a bunch of arbitrary languages. There might be jobs that value knowing specific combinations of languages.

For example, the diplomatic mission of Canada to country x might value an employee who speaks both English and French, and the language of country x.

[true hatch]

argh, dang

[balmy spade]

Even those jobs require a substantial amount of communication skill, social skill, and effort on top of any multilingual requirements.

[peak halo]

Right. I would expect someone working at a diplomatic mission would need some sort of education pertaining to internal relationships.

International*

[odd violet]

Do companies like Amazon care about a computer science degree, if you manage to get an interview and pass all the questions couldn't that still just work as a self taught programmer or is it unlikely to get an interview without one?

If I was wanting to go into something like data science that is since it's fairly straight forward with logistical sides of things

[balmy spade]

The degree is what will help you get the interview. The rest is demonstrable skills that the company wants from you as an employee.

It's not impossible to get an interview, and a job, without a degree. The odds are just stacked against you because of how the system works right now. The degree proves a level of experience that the employer can trust. It gives you a small lever for pay negotiation as well. And, hopefully, through the act of finishing a degree you have picked up the social skills needed to work on a team, communicate, and learn.

[odd violet]

What cs courses are recommended then for something like data science?

[fringe sphinx]

Are you asking what major is a good feeder to data science, or what electives to take while in a cs program?

[fleet reef]

What can I do to help my odds in that case? (assume finishing my degree is not [currently] an option)

[odd violet]

Well I guess I wouldn't mind both answered if possible

[balmy spade]

I need to let others answer that ;)

[balmy spade]

You have work experience in the field. That's worth it's weight in gold. The challenge becomes expressing those skills on your resume, practicing your interviews, and landing the next job.

Or just go be a barista for a year and finish the degree. That path lands right back at my first point as well.

[true hatch]

Would you rather:

Speak 4 languages

or

Know 4 Programming languages

[fleet reef]

I do both

[pine sleet]

are you doing a CS degree or a data science degree

[balmy spade]

I know well more than 4 programming languages and struggle to speak a single language fluently. I suppose knowing another spoken language or two would help my writing.

[true hatch]

DANG, tell me dem

[pine sleet]

if you're doing a CS degree but want to focus on data science, you can look at your university's data science curriculum and steal some of their classes

you can probably just have them count as elective credits

[odd violet]

I feel like CS would be better because data science can be learnt but core concepts about processing and conventional code will all be taught within a CS degree, data science can be learnt online and CS gives more qualifications incase you can't get that dream job, might need to get hired to get a few things on your resume first, just my thought pattern anyway, what do you think about it?

[fleet reef]

English, ASL, Spanish, somewhat studying Portuguese, and see #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval message

[pine sleet]

yeah you can't go wrong with a CS degree and gives you a broad foundation

you can specialize in grad school if you'd like

but if you're interested in data science like i said you can just steal their classes

[fleet reef]

Yeah
I'm struggling with getting to the interview part
I guess that just goes back to the resume part

[pine sleet]

fix yer 'sume

[balmy spade]

The resume and the networking. That's another thing schools help with. Especially community colleges. You meet the staff who are talking to the local businesses and shaping courses to meet the needs.

[fleet reef]

Unfortunately, schools cost money
And I'm all out of Pell grant money

[balmy spade]

Honestly, with some of the work you've done at your job and with the security work, @fleet reef, you could probably find interest at local community colleges to give small presentations. "Meet a working dev" sort of thing.

[pine sleet]

if you're smart with scholarships and loans and grants at a CC it can essentially be free

though you do miss out on oppurtunity potential at a CC

which is one of the largest reasons for many people picking universities

[balmy spade]

Resumes are cool. Shaking hands with the hiring staff as you hand them the resume is what got me my last... 15 jobs? Maybe 12. I dunno.

Times change, but the power of word-of-mouth hasn't.

[true harness]

tech jobs? i can't imagine how i would even find the person doing hiring at my company if i was just walking in

[balmy spade]

You don't just walk in. At least, I didn't for the tech job. You find them at events, career fairs, tours of the company HQ, and through colleges.

((retail, yes... just walk in. Just don't do it during rush hour))

[peak halo]

when I worked at starbucks, if someone asked to talk to "the hiring manager" before noon, my manager would make a note not to hire that person.

[odd violet]

Does havards cs50 edx count for anything realistically on a resume?

[pine sleet]

no

[balmy spade]

I lost count of the times I had to tell someone "No, you do not want to see the manager right now. You want to come back on Monday between 8 and 10 am when the manager is smiling, happy, and not busy."

[celest kite]

What if they just wanted to talk to the hiring manager for a refund?

[peak halo]

No, but what you learn from it might still be valuable.

[true harness]

ah. yeah, agreed. that's how i got my internship for this summer (well, that and the interview, but yeah) 😌

[pine sleet]

smiling between 8 and 10 on a monday?

[tough ocean]

Your job gets more miserable as the week progresses

[balmy spade]

A small window of the weekend buff before it falls and the workweek debuffs start stacking.

[fleet reef]

I was smiling when I got to work today
then someone walked in my office

[odd violet]

Didn't think so, they have this option to pay like $500 for a real certificate or something of the sort, saw that and went "I don't think any real employer will be impressed with completion of a free course"

[celest kite]

When you're the manager Mondays are the best because that's when you get to start inflicting the pain and torture

[pine sleet]

generally speaking there aren't any worthwile certificates for software engineering

[odd violet]

Anything, even if common, is a useless addition to your resume though

[true harness]

did you mean "useful"?

[tough ocean]

Re-read that four times by now.

[odd violet]

Oh yes sorry haha

[true hatch]

if im in the army, can I live in the barracks?

i swear. public static void main has reacted like this to atleast 100 of my messages

[peak halo]

This is for Canada, right? You need to specify.

[true hatch]

i guess, sorry boss

!res

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[dusty marsh]

Heyy everyone.
I am a Non IT guy who haev 2 years of Manual testing experience. I want to shift my job role becuase Manual Testing doesn't have much opportunity and money. I am thinking to learn python which I have started and learn basic concepts. I want to know what are some job roles which I can achieve in less time and have good opportunity. What all things I have to learn.

Basically I am too much confused and doesn't have a path. Please guide me

[smoky quest]

a classic move is to go from manual testing to automated testing

[dusty marsh]

Yeah but what I am thinking is even for automation i have to learn python so I am thinking to switvh to some python job role as they have a bettter pay scale as compare to testing

[kindred rock]

There are tons of people who try tp start their career in python currently.
The job market is rough currently.

Although 2 years of manual testing might be beneficial.

Yeah, I think automated testing would be good.

And from there you can go to devs/dev-ops.

[young tulip]

So that's why my father is so happy on Mondays

[torpid remnant]

Hey guys, I’ve been looking at sports analytics for the past few months and wondered what do I need in order to get in the field. I’m in 10th grade currently and I just finished a basic data analytics course in my school and I’ve always loved sports so I wanna combine the two. How do I do that and what are your thoughts about that field?

[kindred rock]

I am no data analyst but you can probably find a lot of sports related datasets and try to do various analysis of it and compare your results to the professionals.

[torpid remnant]

The thing I learned to do at school is machine learning. How do I turn that to data analytics

[vapid jay]

Hi guys, im 14 years old, and i want to start freelancing, where do i start?
i have experience in python, c#, c++
and learning java
i have been scammed once before lol

[vital wyvern]

I mean you can try Fiverr or something, but 14 is a little young to be worrying about... freelancing.

[kindred rock]

I am no data analysis guy.
But I prefer a more practical approach.
Find the dataset you want to analyse, figure out what kind of analysis you wanna do or can do.
And start doing it while also googling how to do it.

If you want a more professional approach, you probably need to look for some studying sources.

[vapid jay]

i just dont want to depend on my parents money and want to support them

[vital wyvern]

Admirable goal-- probably not realistic.

[kindred rock]

I am not sure how legaly it is allowed and stuff.
But you can try to make account of freelance platforms and just go there, start looking for clients and stuff.

Some of them might require legal documents, which might create some issues for 14 y.o.

[vapid jay]

so its unprobable for me to make money by freelancing?

[vital wyvern]

What you can do, and what's likely a larger value add, is to start working on progressively more complicated projects to build out your portfolio so when it's time for college/employment, you have some good things to show off to employers/college administrators.

[kindred rock]

I would say it's probable.
In real world only the result delivery matters for clients.

But you might have issues with legality and stuff.
I think in EU children aren't really allowed to work.

[vital wyvern]

Correct, to be blunt. The overwhelming majority of people that attempt to freelance programming will fail, and those that don't have many years of professional experience behind them.

[kindred rock]

I am freelancing on upwork.
It's quite a struggle to look for clients.

[vapid jay]

so, i ave a question

i saw this app on google play store, called mimo, and it gives certificates that are authentic

so should i spend my time on those certificates?

[vital wyvern]

Certificates mean next to nothing in programming.
You should focus on doing well in school to make you a desired candidate in college applications (and likely, mitigate some financial aspect of that).
You should focus on creating successively more complicated projects, and applying new and highly relevant concepts.

[vapid jay]

what do you mean by project? like do i just make random stuff like apps and games and stuff?

[vital wyvern]

Correct; creating things is the best way to practice and set yourself up for success in the future. Learning a concept, and applying it programatically is the best way to demonstrate that you have a comprehensive understanding of something.

[plush summit]

Some course on udemy are also good if you filter out the bad ones you don t do it for a certificate then but they are still usefull

[vital wyvern]

I am not contending that courses are useless, but if you don't apply that knowledge somewhere and just rely on the certificate to 'qualify' you, it's genuinely a better use of your time to just go take a nap.

[torpid remnant]

You have any studying sources to recommend?

[vital wyvern]

https://www.kaggle.com/
There are a large variety of resources and demonstrations of analysis on various datasets on Kaggle.

[plush summit]

True

[torpid remnant]

Thank you very much

[azure plaza]

is python good for backend development?

[vital wyvern]

Python is fairly ubiquitous in backend development, in fact.

[kindred oyster]

yes
but if you mean jobs with python backend dev , you should survey your job market.
i see more Js dev requirements for backend than python.

[azure plaza]

thank you for the advice mister

[kindred rock]

Yes.
Would recommend django/fastapi to learn for it.
Probably more fastapi, since it teaches you more general programming.
Since it just provides the web interface for your application and everything else is on your own decision.

And you can apply that knowledge in other programming languages later.

I think most of backend web frameworks just provide web interface and allow you to set endpoints and attack handlers to those.

[red pulsar]

Hey could you help me start freelancing I’m really looking for work where I can code online

[kindred rock]

If you find out how to be a successful freelancer, let me know. :`D

I just made an account and constantly searching for job postings.

I am hella tired of reloading job posting search page every 10 minutes or so.
And upwork refused to provide me API key to automate that.

[gritty rivet]

Unless you're in a country where $5/hour is good money, getting a normal job will be a more realistic option

[dry river]

hi, i am completely new to learning python. i know nothing haha, could anyone give me guidance on how and where to start. i would love as much advice as possible as long as it will help me start and make continuous progress, please and thank you👍

if needed you can message me privately

[peak halo]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[shrewd parrot]

guys whats with low code development?

[ember vigil]

What would entail a job in the field of AI/cybersec (seperate qns)
I currently have a choice between pursuing a degree in B. Tech CSE with either of those specialisations.
I am about equally interested in either field, but have minimal knowledge (mostly from youtube) about both those fields, so I would just like a broad idea of what both of them are, since I don't really feel confident in my limited understanding of either field to pick one.

and do specialisations hinder your being able to get a job as a "regular" developer? atm I'm more interested in that than AI&ML/cybersec, granted that might change once I actually learn more stuff

[shrewd parrot]

how can i get into Appain

appian

[gritty rivet]

What's with it? It means people who aren't experienced developers can do things they otherwise couldn't

[gritty rivet]

Try their quick start guide

[gritty rivet]

If there is a more general option, it sounds like that's what you want. Can always specialize later if you decide to

[ember vigil]

I would prefer that, but I did not get accepted into such a course

[gritty rivet]

I would just keep dabbling in each I guess.

AI/ML can get into more advanced math so that's one thing to consider.

[shrewd parrot]

but i heard its gonna grow a lot by 2032 low code development

my friend has a certification from appian

[gritty rivet]

That makes sense. A lot of things will be bigger by then than they are now.

The product I work on is a low code platform.

[vapid jay]

i wanna be software engineer and im 16

im learning python and im newbie

[torpid remnant]

i cant figure out what coding languages does MLB and NBA teams use OMFG

[vapid jay]

Which concepts have you learned so far?

[kindred rock]

Learn and work hard and you'll get rewarded.

Deepest?
There is metaprogramming in Python.
You can try that.

[vapid jay]

You can learn programming „which you need for cybersecurity and Ai“, and become a software developer and then specialize whenever you want, cybersecurity is easier to get into than ai. So maybe you can make it a goal to learn programming first and then level up to cybersecurity and then ai

ai requires alot of Math which I suck at that’s why i’m aiming to get into cybersecurity

[steep plinth]

How many years will I need to put into creating softwares alone before I apply for Software Developer?

[buoyant seal]

75% of people not learning average biggest impact concepts necessary for productivity 😄
https://www.amazon.com/Test-Driven-Development-Kent-Beck/dp/0321146530
https://www.amazon.com/Unit-Testing-Principles-Practices-Patterns/dp/1617296279
Learn unit testing throughly

[kindred rock]

Also you can go insane on OOP in java style.
7+ layers of inheritance and inheriting from multiple parents.

That can destroy sane person's mind.

[steep plinth]

Which languages should I focus on learning more in-depth that are much needed in modern times?

[vapid jay]

Is comparable to OOP in python?

[kindred rock]

Unless you learn some strict full project framework.
It doesn't matter what language honestly.

They all are similar.
Once you understand how to build software, you will be able to do replicate your projects in any language.

[signal gorge]

yo I got an interview on Thursday

[kindred rock]

GL

[buoyant seal]

very. necessary skill to be comercial level average dev.

[kindred rock]

Yes. It's almost a must.
I took his advice and read the second book and it's great.

It goes not as much into testing, but into project architecture as a whole.
And that's important.

I would probably recommend starting from readin Clean Architecture, but honestly, up to you.
Also it's an older book and can be controversial at places.
You need to think more when you read it and ask yourself if it makes sense to you.

[ember vigil]

but I have to get one of those two degrees at the moment?

I am still very much going to be learning to code, my hand is forced here to pick one of these to specialisations

[vapid jay]

Are you good at math and data?

[ember vigil]

I would say I'm decent at math, as for data, I have no idea what that entails, which is what my question is about

what exactly constitutes ai/ml and cybersec? both in learning and as a job

[ember vigil]

bump

[vapid jay]

You should specialize in Ai cuz its harder to learn and sounds better on your resume, as for cybersecurity you can learn it by yourself and there’s alot of certification that prove’s you’re qualified, this is my opinion at the end of the day it will be your personal choice

[ember vigil]

I don't want to pick a course because it'll look better on my resume, I want to pick a course so that I can pursue what best suits me out of my choices. hence I'm asking about what they are so that I can make an informed decision

[knotty shoal]

Yo. So uhm sorry for stupid question in advance, is that's really possible to get hired as back ender without degree but with decent amount of knowledge in algorithms/data structures and os with also including some portfolio projects

[steep plinth]

YaxXo, it's not a stupid question at all. In fact, it's a valid question & I feel many will want to ask this too sometime in the future.

I'm not really the best person to answer your question. However, I will at least share my knowledge. It's definitelty still possible to get hired as back ender without a degree. A degree is still very well looked upon. It's just that from my own personal experience & what I've been told a lot throughout my life is that Managers & those who are hiring are in search of people who have experience & can demonstrate their skills rather than just word them. So, in other words. A Portfolio is the best way to go. Tailor your reusme too. Your knowledge is power! I believe you will be able to achieve what you wish to achieve. It just requires time & effort. A lot of hard work & much smarter work than harder work :)

[gritty rivet]

It's harder than it used to be but not impossible. Build a great portfolio, network and apply like crazy until you get a break

[kindred rock]

Yes, but honestly. People don't really care about your algorithms and data structures.
It's mostly about result delivery and how much you can do.

Especially small companies.
They want you to be able to do everything possible.
I would recommend studying devops and AI stuff.
And probalby some frontend if you like it.

I think the times when solving leetcode a ton for increasing the chance of getting hired are gone.
(For the good).

[shrewd parrot]

That is really interesting! I have a friend online he also does Low Code he is a python dev senior

[fringe sphinx]

I'll start with the negatives but end on a positive note: it's very hard (nigh impossible nowadays) to land an -entry- SWE interview without a degree. Anyone who tells you that "degrees are optional" are feeding you some BS. Find a way to work towards a degree, it'll pay off and is not really optional.

In practical terms: sure, there's exceptions. Some people get hired, there are paths, etc. It's risky, you're starting off at a deficit, and you're opportunities will be limited for a long time.

On a positive note: if you want to maximize your opportunities: 1. network - you need someone to give you a shot... a resume screener at a nameless company will probably ignore your resume. 2. Get a starter job in tech, such as in Tech Support, Helpdesk, QA/testing, operations, etc... some adjacent experience can get your foot in the door and give you an opportunity to move into a coding role.

[ember vigil]

bump,
some additional info
no, I don't have the option to pick a general degree,
for the first 2 years of the course, it's just plain computer science theory/programming
the next 2 involve both cs theory/programming and specialisation subjects.

[astral whale]

Is anyone a data analyst here? i would like to have a conversation with that person

[white relic]

It would not be surprising at all to me for your first job to not have anything to do with your "specialization". Specializing happens over years of experience, not just because you took the option in school. I'm sure it can be a minor hiring factor but many places will be happy to hire a degree holder who demonstrates relevant skills regardless of their specialization.
so, pick which one is most interesting to you, study, do a variety of projects, seek internships, and be open to all kinds of opportunities, not just ones that happen to match your specialization.

[vapid jay]

Like kwargs arrgs variables def while loops for loops time lib little bit input and like that basic stuff begineer

[vapid jay]

Thank you sir ill live upto your expectation

[vital wyvern]

If there was a data analyst here, what would you ask them?

[south forum]

Are there any freelance coders here im looking for a mentor to help me get started

[gritty rivet]

If you search the recent chats we have a bunch of experienced freelancers here all complaining about how impossibly competitive freelancing is

[south forum]

Then what should i do, im looking for a job right now. I prefer startups as that is the place where i feel i can truly make a difference

[astral whale]

It's personal

[peak halo]

if it's personal, why are you asking in a public space?

[astral whale]

You won't understand

[true harness]

apply to startups?

[peak halo]

<@&831776746206265384> advertising a (non-python) youtube channel

[gritty rivet]

If you're looking for a normal job at a startup, that's a completely different story, but also rough these days

There are job boards for that depending where you are. Y Combinator is a big one

[pastel thunder]

what to expect from onsite interview?
harder or easier compared to online?

[deft herald]

Well you have to interact with real people. This is harder for a lot of people

[pastel thunder]

what is more likely to happen? pan paper, on board,
group of people/ one people

[deft herald]

yes

[pastel thunder]

HR scheduled 3 hours meet😢

[deft herald]

Did they send an itinerary? Sometimes they tell you who you will be speaking to at what times

and 3 hrs isn't too bad tbh

[pastel thunder]

nothing, just a call, wil call her tomm, and try to ask more

but i think, she doesnot know much
based on her response, when i asked what to expect

[deft herald]

Well sure, HR won't know technical details

[pastel thunder]

already had interview with director, why are they bringing moree and more interview, idk

[deft herald]

Sounds like it didn't go as bad as you think, haha

[pastel thunder]

idk, have given 7+ hours of techinical interview 2-2-3
now they reached out after 20 days

[deft herald]

well congratulations

[pastel thunder]

lmao why

[deft herald]

They're not going to invite a candidate to an in person interview if they weren't being seriously considered for the role

[pastel thunder]

distressed

below 0 social skills on scale

i should study

[deft herald]

maybe you should go to a bar and meet some people 😄

practice those social skills

[pastel thunder]

https://tenor.com/view/kitten-drink-milk-bar-cat-gif-11501109593153103379

[near ocean]

7+ hours of tech interviews and they still want more? Sounds like their engineers are trying to get some company approved "time off" in the form of sitting on interview panels

[pastel thunder]

do they hire while sitting like this?

https://tenor.com/view/byuntear-baby-cry-crying-gif-25019897

[vapid jay]

Anyone have career advice for freelancing? Things are not getting started with my web dev path. Absolute newbie I tell you.

[pastel thunder]

dropped a bomb and went to sleep?

[peak halo]

Don't do it. Try to get a job with a company.

[pine sleet]

freelancing is tough. you're competing with tens of thousands of folks from across the world all trying to freelance. you're also competing with thousands of professionals with many years of experience in the field, degrees, and connections.

your goal is to convince clients they should hire you instead of this other person they know personally, has always delivered good quality products in a timely manner, and for a reasonable price

[vapid jay]

So freelancing is harder than job seeking?

[pine sleet]

tenfold, yes

[near ocean]

so what youre saying is, be a 10x dev?

[vapid jay]

So you’re saying that I should spend 4 years learning math and get a lame cs bachelors degree and then go applying for jobs?

[pine sleet]

yes

[wheat hatch]

The only people I have seen that successfully managed to freelance were very experienced, very connected people. We're talking many years in the industry. And when covid came they all struggled a lot for jobs.

[pine sleet]

99% of people that think they're too good for a degree are just average and should just get the degree like most people

[vapid jay]

And then go apply to jobs that were listen by dumb HR people who don’t know what’s going on

[pine sleet]

if a job was posted by someone you think doesn't know what they're talking about, just don't apply there

many times a job description or post will tell you a lot about the company

[near ocean]

this is how the world works right now and there's no changing it from the outside

[wheat hatch]

It's when people are on the peak that they are most dangerous imo

[vapid jay]

I would get a degree just because of the system not to learn

[near ocean]

if you want to improve things, get hired, climb the ladder and hire people your own way

[pine sleet]

that's fair. all the content is freely available online

[vapid jay]

I heard alot about cs degree just being theoretical and mostly math adn algorithms

[pine sleet]

it typically is (at least in the U.S)

[near ocean]

it depends, a good chunk of unis are teaching software development and marketing it as computer science

[pine sleet]

always check the degree plan and course curriculum

[vapid jay]

Exactly im pretty sure everyone can learn anything online specifically programming, but at the day end of the how are you gonna convince those HR people?

[pine sleet]

the goal is to convince them you're better than the others. the others have a degree, so you should get one too

[deft pelican]

If I didn't go to uni, I would have been a lot less smarter and knowledgeable

[balmy spade]

Networking, communication, provable experience, and a bit of luck.

[pine sleet]

turns out a 4 year degree lets you get all of that!

wow, wouldn't you know

[vapid jay]

It does?

[deft pelican]

I would recommend it for the learning, the degree is not necessary
Although I might get my degree this year! 😲😲

[wheat hatch]

Yeah, there's things you learn in uni that you can't really learn on your own, or are considerably harder to learn on your own.

[balmy spade]

It can. If you use your time to learn those things.

[pine sleet]

yes!

stuff like that is equally as important as the content

[pine sleet]

networking: your professors, university hosted career events (like career fairs), your peers are all links into the industry

experience: internships are usually given to students that are doing their degree

communication: can be practiced during internship, or during uni. there are classes for it

[deft pelican]

Maths, having teacher helps immensely!

[balmy spade]

Team work, social skills, exploring the unknown under your own power instead of the restrictive guidance of k-12 school. But you have to work at all of it. It doesn't just happen.

You can totally go through college, get a degree, and miss so much.

[pine sleet]

it's the age old wisdom that college is what you make of it. you can totally get straight Cs, miss all your class lectures, not talk to a single professor, not do an internship, and complain that your degree was useless

[wheat hatch]

The communication aspect is often overlooked in my experience. Any kind of serious dev work requires quite a lot of communication skills. You often work in teams, coordinating with other teams, etc.

[balmy spade]

I would go so far as to say that if you are working alone today you are in an exceptional situation.

[pine sleet]

but all those skills preocts mentioned are a bit easier to learn at uni because the stage is already set, the resources are all there - you just have to take the initiative

your professors are right there, your classmates are right there, your career fairs are right there

[wheat hatch]

I agree preocts, it's very rare.
Very difficult to learn teamworking on your own as well. A university is a perfect place for it.

[pine sleet]

no better motivator than money

[balmy spade]

I've found better ones, but they took time to discover.

[fringe sphinx]

Good bbq is my favorite one

[strange nova]

World domination /s

[noble notch]

Can a standalone Json file be malicious?

[true harness]

sure

[noble notch]

What could it do

[true harness]

#cybersecurity

[hearty island]

i might finally get an offer tomorrow. interviewing with the same person i did in the 2nd round.

[fringe sphinx]

I'm rooting for you. You deserve it!

[hearty island]

thank you!! this is for a risk analyst position at a financial firm 🙂

[hearty island]

if i do get it, i'd have to relocate to NJ

[fringe sphinx]

That is a great career path... a lot of depth (room to grow) in many dimensions

[hearty island]

yea, i'm thinking of doing my masters in finance as well as a GARP FRM

[hearty island]

it's an excellent way to break into finance, which is what i've wanted for so long

[fringe sphinx]

What's garp?

[hearty island]

Global Association of Risk Professionals

[fringe sphinx]

I work with (my customers are) risk managers often. I can relate to them more than I can investment analysts

[hearty island]

the hours aren't as bad as ib analyst ppl either

[fringe sphinx]

lol, ever watch margin call?

Excellent movie. "Talk to me as you would a small child or a golden retriever..."

[hearty island]

i explained value at risk to the VP at a 5 year old level and i said that's the type of person you need at the firm, someone who can explain and dumb things down to people who aren't SMEs

[cursive kraken]

check your dms

[hearty island]

sounds like eli5

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, boomer speak for eli5 for sure

[hearty island]

https://youtu.be/LTDS6SHwA6w

[hearty island]

i've seen the big short. also a great movie.

[cursive kraken]

if anyone brute forcemy password

for a website i will give you money dm me

dm me for more info and i will give it to you

[fringe sphinx]

!warn 738418841511657482 we don't do this (offer payment or recruit) here. See #rules please.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @cursive kraken.

[fiery gull]

how to learn

[odd violet]

My recommendation for python is take CS50 personally I just followed the full video to consolidate my prior knowledge, you can sign up to cs50 edx and do it week by week or if you think of yourself as a faster speed learner you can access the entire course video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLRL_NcnK-4

[vapid jay]

hi

[true fractal]

hi

[vapid jay]

i am uh learning python

i am 13 💀

[true fractal]

welcome

hope you enjoy learning python

[vapid jay]

oke

[plush flare]

hellow

[high narwhal]

Hey guys so I've been programming for a few years now mainly in Python and Flutter. I want to be a Software Developer but I'm a little bit lost on what I'm really supposed to be studying/projects to work on to really prepare me for an industry job. Anyone have any tips for what I should be doing?

[balmy spade]

What area of software development are you interested in? Projects that focus on that area would be something worth building.

[smoky quest]

A CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[true hatch]

What do software engineers at work?

[harsh river]

They engineer software

They just write code, program, design frontend or backend, etc
They're just programmers

[true hatch]

Sounds fun ngl, I like coding

[high narwhal]

I like developing front-end apps in Flutter for IOS but also find making solutions to other random problems in python

I can keep making these apps but Im not sure where to find a job for a Flutter dev other than something like FIverr

[balmy spade]

Today:

• Started the morning writing a one-off script to query multiple APIs and assemble a view of how many tech incidents were opened in a particular time frame while providing team and leader information of the impacted services
• Morning break (stand-up)
• Continued working on a new automation piece needed for our systems team
• Open office meeting hours for community of best practice
• Open office meeting hours for team specific platforms
• Diagram building and workflow drafting for an integration into a new platform recently introduced
• Help session with a team member on debugging their program
• Lunch
• Another one-script needed to find the cause of a bug in monitoring (solved, yay!)
• A longer pair programming session with another team member
• An hour spent in post incident review

I think I got about three hours of coding in for the day. Pretty good for a Tuesday.

[lilac schooner]

Part or full

[lilac schooner]

Bro wasted his message

[buoyant seal]

• Handle help request regarding CI problems
• Have meeting (that happens 2 times a week) about assigned tasks and give short repor, listen to others reports
  • Have short discussions on different tasks in Slack regarding taken tasks or why some tasks are blocked and potentially impossible to complete.
• Have meeting (that happens 1 times a week) with manager that reports our performance productivity and etc
• Try getting into the mood of actually working. Listening music helps to come into right mind set https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViHpSR1PuTY https://youtu.be/lL-INscx8Co?list=PLn5U4-iqExp_A7J9jqHOnsh2yyMvp8COa , continuing working with music on
• Continue working on a feature to make integration between applications and Opentelemetry collectors APM dashboard
  • Read documentation to opentelemetry sdk and collectors
  • Dig through repository of code for opentelemetry, examples and its deployment script for more info
  • Try writing prototype modification to library connecting apps to opentelemetry for the purpose of seeing monitoring observation for specific span types (coming for postgres for example)
  • Experiment with opentelemetry-collector, grafana, prometheus settings to figure out their working in a minimal local setup to have necessary metrics
  • Debug issues by running local tests to specific segments of a solution to localize at which moment necessary metrics did not appear
  • Have eventually succeed in having dashboard working after all the experiments. Refactor code configuring it, to be properly coded and automatically setting it all up.
  • Write down ideas for next work time, how encountered issues can be fixed to make the solution complete

So majority of a day, learning documentation to library and tools and trying making it all together locally.

[gloomy plank]

why I wasted message?

[lilac schooner]

U said hello for nothing...

[gloomy plank]

wow. I am sure what you are meaninh. I am new to this server. so I have words to say.

[gloomy plank]

wow. I am sure what you are meaning. I am new to this server. so I have words to say.

[lilac schooner]

Oh ok, hello too 😁

[gloomy plank]

Thank U. so are you japanese?

[gloomy plank]

Thank U. so are you Japanese?

hey didn't you hear me?

[rough ridge]

I know it is often said that certificates dont really hold much weight in programming, but I got a few from CodinGame (the language certificates) and I know codingame is also a hiring platform so maybe theirs count a bit more? idk just wondering whether I should put them on linkedin or not

[celest kite]

Fwiw I've never heard of that and it would do nothing for me if I saw it on a resume (I've served on a candidate review panel at my work)

[rough ridge]

I see, their websites does say

We’re well on our way to becoming the de-facto standard for programming skills certification. Everyday, thousands of employers across the globe trust us to spot and hire new tech talent. You’re up next!

but I guess most sites would put something like that

[buoyant seal]

that what every certificating platform says 😄 because they proffit from selling more

[rough ridge]

I mean it was free

[buoyant seal]

https://aws.amazon.com/certification/
I am only aware about certificates from providers of the systems itself having some value
like AWS certs are valued for backend, data engineers, devops engineers and ml people
For people obviously working with AWS 😄

And other mostly infra related stuff which is useful for infra devs only

[rough ridge]

I see, makes sense

I do have 3 certifications related to programming those automated manufacturing robot hands

those are from the manufacturer so, but I doubt they will help much with say a frontend job xD

I am going to university next year/in a few months so wanted to start building out a profile and maybe apply to some entry level jobs

[buoyant seal]

AWS should be useful for frontenders too, as long as they lean more onto full stack side of their job role
Working with server side is expected from them too in solutions with SSR/SSG stuff like Nuxt.js / Next.js and etc
Or navigating in backend and connecting with front on their own

[gritty rivet]

This is how I evaluate any certification:

#1 : Are the employers I care about mentioning this cert in their job listing?

#2: Are people who are actually working the industry putting this cert on their LinkedIn?

If the answer to both questions is no, the cert is trash

[plush summit]

Are they also expected to write the funcs in the backend Just wondering

[buoyant seal]

in average can be yes, as it can be more work at backend than at front, so frontend people are asked in job requirements to participate in backend dev too.
or if you use Nuxt.js/Next.js and other hybrid frameworks with backend parts, you will have code at server side naturally

So i guess u can't escape not knowing some backend/server side stuff if you are frontender. Eventually at some point in your career u will learn it, even if u will be able to escape it during beginning time

[buoyant seal]

also frontend people write functions in front too. Frontend devs are expected having profficiency with javascript/typescript today

[plush summit]

Yeah i know was Just wondering i do fullstack for now (student ) with angular and springboot

[balmy spade]

Full time.

[rough ridge]

I meant the

I do have 3 certifications related to programming those automated manufacturing robot hands
certs are from the manufacturers of those robots

[neat pike]

Hi. I'm still a teenager so I have a bit of time before my first job, but I would like to know what some possible job opportunities are with experience in python and what companies hire. Usually, I see Big Tech only hires if you have knowledge in cpp and c (and such). Any idea how to prepare yourself for a job thart requires python? What libraries to work on etc?

Thank you!

[gritty rivet]

If you want to work as a professional programmer, focus on figuring out which university you want to get your CS degree from

In the meantime, just enjoy learning Python and learning whatever is useful or interesting to you

You can also search the job listings in your region for Python, or check the Python job boards in the description of this channel, just to get a handle on the specific roles people use Python for but the main categories you'll notice are backend web stuff (frameworks like Django and FastAPI), data analysis (with packages like Pandas), AI/ML (Pytorch), among other things

But getting a degree is going to be the safe, easy, normal way to get jobs in any of those fields

[neat pike]

Thank you! I am preparing for a tough examination to get into a good college, and this is really helpful! ❤️

[glad junco]

And u think it’s necessary to do a carrer like a program carrer?

Or is bootcamp sufficient?

[white relic]

do you mean, is it necessary to get a degree?

[glad junco]

Exactly

[white relic]

#career-advice message this pinned message about covers it
tl;dr: if you are young, a CS degree is the path of least resistance and greatest opportunity.

[glad junco]

Thanks

[gritty rivet]

Most successful bootcamp graduates are career changers who have degrees and professional experience in other fields. Most of us got in when the market was better. These days I absolutely would not recommend a bootcamp to anyone who can possibly get a degree instead

[balmy mural]

You got good responses from people who are pretty experienced, so I'll drop in my day to get a bit of a more junior perspective as well

• Started day off by continuing programming on a ticket I've been working on
• Morning standup
• Sat with my tech lead trying to figure out a specific issue I'd been having this morning when building our project. Wasn't preventing me from programming, but it was preventing me from debugging, so I had been coding somewhat blind.
• Continued with my ticket
• One hour masterclass about the technical aspects of how/what/why an adjacent team to mine had done on an experimental/pilot feature for the client.
• Continued on ticket
• Lunch
• Meeting regarding different options for an important technical change we need to make sometime in the future. Discussing the impact different changes would have, alternative options, what can our existing framework support and what would need framework changes, etc.
• Finished day by continuing on my ticket

On some days I'm working on larger tickets that span a few days, other days (especially during our CIT/SIT testing cycle) I pickup and work on multiple small tickets a day. On some days, my whole day consists of just me working on my tickets except for standup.

[hearty island]

trent, would you say if you have a final round interview with someone you already interviewed with and they say it's a feedback round would you say it's most likely a verbal offer?

[white relic]

It seems likely.

all virtual interviews or have you been onsite?

[novel ore]

Where do I find internships for DS

[hearty island]

all virtual, yea. I wouldn’t be surprised if they called me up to NJ

[dense willow]

a controversial question… is it worth it to spend time learning programming with hopes to eventually get a job if I don’t have a cs degree? (I have a ba in arts)

[hearty island]

if you like programming, then I would say go for it

[gritty rivet]

I am a professional programmer with an irrelevant degree and there are many of us

The problem is, it's getting harder all the time to break in. Most of us entered in a very different market

Lots of people get a second bachelor's. Alternatively there are Master's programs that are specifically open to people with non-CS undergrad degrees

I wouldn't say that a CS degree is required, but it's advisable if you can make it work

[peak halo]

if you're not currently a university student, you almost certainly won't get one.
if you are a university student, does your university have a career services center?

[peak halo]

given the state of the market, if you're sure that getting a CS degree isn't an option, your efforts might be better spent pursuing a different career.

there are a lot of entry-level positions where having a CS-or-similar degree is a hard requirement. And for positions that don't have that as a hard requirement, you'll be competing with applicants who have the degree.

[dense willow]

what about a masters in cs?

[south forum]

In my o[nion having atleast one degree in CS is a must to land a decent job in this feild. i just feel there are expreiences that you get while persuing the degree which you just cant otherwise.

[peak halo]

that would work.

[balmy mural]

I would say the percentages get closer to each other as your seniority increases and people start relying more on you to do technical designs and contribute to technical decisions

Our dailies are actual dailies. Normally 15 minutes, and never more than 30 minutes. It's really a quick update from everyone on what they're currently working on and/or what's currently blocking them

[cunning rune]

anyone that has over then 10iq that can help me here?

[pine sleet]

most people here fit that criteria so ask your question

[cunning rune]

😂

What is an array?

[pine sleet]

off topic for this channel, ask in #python-discussion

or get a help channel

[cunning rune]

My bad

[pine sleet]

np

[sour iron]

This is career-discussion, should've been obvious 😂

[cunning rune]

yeah lol i just noticed that

[buoyant seal]

@true hatch 80% reading documentation and other code (we can probably include crawling with debug into this time), 10% coding and 10% talking to people 😄

[vale tapir]

Hey everyone,

I hope you're all doing well! I'm working on a new project called eLearning Platform that combines Udemy courses and LeetCode exercises. ***I need help adding content *** to get a minimal viable product up and running. If you can contribute coding exercises or tutorials, it would be greatly appreciated!

Check out the website here: https://www.elpcampus.tech/

If you have any questions or want to report any issues, let me know!

[heavy bramble]

python

[wheat hatch]

For one project we spent about 6 months writing 30 lines of code. Why so little you might ask - because the system impacts of those 30 lines needed thorough analysis before the decision to write the code could be taken.

[gloomy plank]

hello I need portfolio related to AI

anybody help me.

[topaz ice]

What is the work life of a data analyst like

[wheat hatch]

Haha, yeah it was a pretty extreme case. But I'd say it's dependent on industry, also large already established code bases like you touched on earlier.
In this case it was for a 4G cell tower computer. The consequence of those lines not working was pretty severe so a lot of analysis had to be done before the code could be written.

I used to think that as well, then I realized it can be pretty hard to design a system. There's usually a lot of compromises involved, where robustness might not always be the highest priority all the time.

[formal topaz]

chat real talk, just got done with my exams and I have a long summer ahead of me with no plans or any shit
I'm doing very well academically, I'm studying in a prestigious uni (top 20 cs) but this year I've done almost nothing in terms of career (no work experience or anything).
I want to spend this summer working towards one goal: getting an internship for the following summer (either during this summer or preparing to apply)
What are your tips?
For context this is my first year rn

[white relic]

"robustness" is often hard to define, like, what should this controller do if the inputs it's reading don't make sense, is it better to assume the inputs are correct and continue as usual, flash a light demanding manual intervention, return to nominal outputs, reboot?

[wheat hatch]

Yeah, you're right. We have an established definition at work but yeah this is outside work.

[white relic]

it's easy to say "well one line of code shouldn't bring down the system" but what if that 1 line of code is the line that detects an error has occurred

[rough ridge]

I think one good metric is that something intentional should happen, be it clamping values, error popups, etc.
if it crashes with no good output then it isnt robust, imo

[wheat hatch]

To an extent. But sometimes it is at odds with other requirements, like performance - or throughput as we like to say for cell towers. In those cases throughput might win (because the customer always wants faster internet), causing the fault tolerance of the system to degrade over time. After long enough you are left with a system that might be very fault sensitive.

[white relic]

it depends on what kind of faults you're trying to tolerate

writing if __name__ == "__mian__" is pretty hard to be tolerant of

[wheat hatch]

Yes, very much so. Hence why the analysis took so long for this particular case.

[balmy mural]

I've had a case where it took me about 3 days of analyzing the impact of one sql update to a table we generally never update, just add

[fringe sphinx]

That's -different- than taking time to determine the correct fix/change for a component. The intent is both: robust systems that tolerate (or gracefully shutdown or degrade) failures, and systems with very few failures to begin with.

I had a vendor not so long ago who had a major security vulnerability that we identified -because- a single node in a cluster was misconfigured.

At least, that was their explanation.

My explanation is: they should fire that entire team.

(I'm still angry)

[balmy mural]

It's just that it was a table we only ever use when we create a whole new workflow definition to name them. We had no idea what impact there would be if we update a name retroactively cause we've never had to do that in the project's existance.

[hearty island]

billybobby, any last minute tips for an interview with someone who i've already interviewed with in the second to last round?

this could be a logistics call like when do you wanna start and just how i performed

i feel like if they wanted to reject me they'd have done it by email

[fringe sphinx]

This is a complex topic, since many systems have complex interdependencies. But, it's also one reason why microservices is popular and why this rant hit a chord with many people: https://gist.github.com/chitchcock/1281611

But generally yah: it should be clear, but sometimes it isn't. Sometimes a simple timing change can have dramatic downstream effects.

[fringe sphinx]

I wouldn't stress it. You can always be forward and ask what they think and what your status is. What their decision timeline? If they have any concerns that you can respond to?

[hearty island]

well the VP said the MD said great things about me. the interview with the MD he said i was "candidate #1" and started asking if i had other offers

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, it happens. I think you're right that good systems should be robust and compartmentalized/modularized.

[balmy mural]

We avoid this at all costs in our team. We've done slightly less than ideal stuff if someone notices very late on a PR that something should change, but we go and fix it for the next release immediately

[fringe sphinx]

Then I wouldn't stress it. Relax, they like you.

[hearty island]

thanks man, i needed to hear that

[cedar stream]

What's the best field to learn to freelance in that isn't hard to find work for + isn't hard to learn? I'm proficient in python and decent at vanilla html css js but I'm ready to learn anything. I used to be a web scraping freelancer which was fine but I want something else.

also you aint lisan al gaib mah boi

[hearty island]

nah bro if it's anyone on this server it's him

[cedar stream]

damn alright fair point

[pine sleet]

starting off freelancing these days is hard, if you were doing well as a web scraping freelancer, you should keep doing that

[cedar stream]

I started off doing well but it went down hill quite fast so I'm looking for something else also yeah freelancing has been brutal

[hearty island]

it would be quite unreasonable/unrealistic for a firm to spend the time to reject me by meeting with me

it’s a waste of time and resources

[fringe sphinx]

You should consider meditation 🙂

[hearty island]

in fact I downloaded an app for it

[cedar stream]

should I become a doctor instead of a software engineer lol

[near ocean]

Yes

[wheat hatch]

Depending on how much functionality that use that table, and how many implicit assumptions there are about the layout of the table, I can definitely see how that operation might be risky.

Had a similar case when I was fairly junior. We added a single byte to a message, things exploded haha.

[round moss]

How does someone start freelancing, I mean how much do I need to know before I can become confident enough to start doing jobs for people, i am currently learning Django rest framework for APIs, and I'm wondering if I'll ever be good enough to actually earn from it (It's been 3 years since I started learning Programming with Python, not consistently tho)

[pine sleet]

you can start whenever, but most of getting started with freelancing isn't about skill

not to be discouraging but you most likely won't be able to make any significant amount of money freelancing

[round moss]

If it's not about skill, what is it?

[pine sleet]

connections

also advertising, if you don't have those

you need to convince people to hire you instead of this other guy they know personally, has years of experience in the industry, has a degree, and has always delivered high quality products for reasonable prices

also have to compete with the thousands of other random people trying to get started freelancing

[smoky quest]

be aware you will also be in competition with people from other countries with a super low cost of living and who can undercut your price.

For all these reasons, in terms of career, a CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[pastel thunder]

cool thoughful question to ask to interviewer?

[round moss]

apart from freelancing what other options are available?

[smoky quest]

software engineer jobs

[round moss]

Will i ever know when i'm ready to apply for jobs? I kinda feel under qualified

[smoky quest]

You can ask about the team, the jobs or the company.
Like what are the criteria for success for the candidate? What would make them say the new hire is successful in 6months?
What problems is the team/company/org trying to solve in the next 3-6-12 months? Types of challenges?
What is one thing that they learned? Did not pan out? Would want to improve on?

[smoky quest]

The typical path is once you graduate from your bsc

[round moss]

Thank you so much for the tips

I'm still a long way from graduation, maybe i'll be better off building more stuff to improve my skills

[pastel thunder]

ok cool,
Can I ask :"what is the criterion/ protocol followed during promotion.|
Can I expect a promotion to SDE2 in an year? given I meet your expectation of 1 year"

[smoky quest]

until then:

• Keep up with your grades so that you can get into great schools
• Have fun and build things. Make websites, robots, mobile apps, Iot stuff, games, your own programming language, etc. It will help you discover what's out there and to learn deeper and broader skills

[smoky quest]

That sounds too much like asking someone their salary and if they own a home when you just start dating them.

The obvious answer to these questions are obviously that yes, you would be promoted assuming you meet the criteria

[pastel thunder]

lol, didnt sounded like that to me, but I wont ask that now

[smoky quest]

it would be better to ask about how they support the career and growth of the engineers

[pastel thunder]

too difficult to answer?

[smoky quest]

why?

they ought to have an answer anyway on that topic

[pastel thunder]

wont they get a hard time, listing things
Its likely they do as minimal as possible

[smoky quest]

why would they do as minimal as possible?

[pastel thunder]

probably because I wont, maybe I dont have that kind of mindset yet

[smoky quest]

I don't understand

[smoky quest]

Could you rephrase it?

[pastel thunder]

just saying, I cant imagine my self actively trying to support someone, in multiple ways
may in just one or two ways, that would make a short answer

[smoky quest]

that's the job of the senior folks

[pastel thunder]

yeah, the last director I interviewed with had an essay to speak about

[smoky quest]

every manager, director and even staff/fellow should have an essay to speak about on that topic

[pastel thunder]

i just asked his long term plan
he continuosly spoke for about 20 min

and I missed the gist of it

🤣 because it was too long

tomorrow again their is another director round
I guess they gonna hire me for the Chair of the Board, given the number of interview and their seniority

with about 9 months of experience

[left minnow]

any devs want to be hired to code a bot

[smoky quest]

and to circle back to your question, there are many ways to support engineers, through coaching, mentorship, getting feedback, career conversations, having career ladders to points at, etc.
Not every company has the same level of support and maturity in that regard.

So for instance, being set clear guidance on what it means to reach the next level, your gaps, and getting opportunities to work on and demonstrating these skills

[smoky quest]

Hi!
We don't allow hiring

[left minnow]

oh

[pastel thunder]

i see, cool

[vapid jay]

Guys, I want to make this small booktracker app, what do I use? Kivy, flet or flutterflow? Or do I learn Java and make it in Android studio?

[pastel thunder]

cool, will ask this also

[near ocean]

What kind of answers are you likely to get to that question

[placid hill]

Hi, I'm thinking of getting a diploma in computer science. And then pursue a BSc later on. But for now, what do you think? Is it a good first step?

[gritty rivet]

Are there jobs for people with one of these diplomas in your local area? LinkedIn is a good place to figure that out.

[near ocean]

how does that work though, realistically for you to progress to leading a team that means they'll keep hiring grads/juniors/mids
does that sound right in the current economy?

i dont think i've ever asked about career progression because i've never thought i'd stay at one place long enough for that to be a factor

[smoky quest]

a lot of things can happen in 6-18 months.

Plus it's not like bigger teams are necessarily better. It's also the composition and the journey

[wind cedar]

Should I add non ap cs classes on my LinkedIn profile?

I feel like it’s not needed and it’s too low level since it’s not college level, and I should only add cs classes that are college level in their which would be the AP classes

[gritty rivet]

I agree

[wind cedar]

i edit, do you still agree?

[gritty rivet]

Yes, I'm not sure what the general practice is on LinkedIn but on a resume I would say only include coursework if it's relevant to what you're applying for and you have no better way to demonstrate that you know this material (projects or internships or whatever)

[wind cedar]

Because in all honesty I feel like the non ap high school cs courses are just made up cs courses that won’t help in real life just to make some kid fulfill some stupid elective at my school in all honesty

[true harness]

it's not like AP CS is actually a college level course. and even if it was, it's not an interesting one. when you graduate college, you will have a lot more and better things to put. high school courses will be irrelevent then

[fringe sphinx]

Doesn't it map pretty closely to the intro to CS curriculum / freshman year? I agree with your overall criticism, tho.

It's perhaps a little chicken and egg.

(the AP curriculum has somewhat dictated how many schools plan their intro course)

[true harness]

maybe in some implementations, but it's also over a full year in most cases, so you have twice as long to learn the same material

[fringe sphinx]

Sure, I agree with the general argument, altho that's true for most AP classes.

[true harness]

(though notably this has not been the case for calc. many schools still have a generic calc series even for students that have taken ap calc (and scored well on the ap exam))

[fringe sphinx]

incidentally, my son took calc at a local college during the summers. 7 weeks, no AP test, and got full credit.

(it's not that he's a good student, it's that he didn't want to grind out a year of ap calc after hearing how miserable it was + an AP test)

Which, I think, is similar to your feeling about AP CS

[true harness]

maybe. it's not that AP CS is miserable imo, but that it's just not any better than learning on your own. you can make far more progress if you're interested in programming already

[pastel thunder]

Shake hand or not? With very senior interviewer?

[near ocean]

As opposed to? Jazz handsing them?

[pastel thunder]

Obviously wont kiss them,
Just say hi.

Imagine kissing goodbye

My brain going on a 1000mile

[pastel thunder]

Forehead🤣

[zealous topaz]

tfw junior dev (me) try to work on ticket, and based on previous experiences, go one step further than instructed, and at the end of sprint when discussing my progress, ends up canceling entire ticket because it ended up not meeting requirement... hooray i wasted my time as well as some of my senior engineer's time.

well my mindset is currently set as 'senior engineer should have seen it all, and I have to make it work no matter what' where as senior engineer is thinking 'idk if we can do this so I'll let junior to explore the possibilities first, and will proceed based on his report'

[balmy spade]

Sounds like a Tuesday. So long as you know more now than you did when you started, it's no waste of time.

[smoky quest]

old but classic:

[fleet reef]

Hey wait

Where did you get Dilbert??
I tried to read them the other day but they were gone

[smoky quest]

google image

[wind cedar]

But at least it’s the closest thing to a college course, I’d rather have that then a non ap cs course

[true harness]

what's your situation? are you in college currently?

[wind cedar]

Why does that matter?

[true harness]

AP CS is (allegedly) the equivalent of an intro programming course; something you take in your very first semester of college. if you're in college, then you have taken way more interesting courses (or are going to). if not, then sure, go wild

[hearty island]

this unfortunately wasn't true, it was a technical round with hypothetical technical questions and each and every answer i gave wasn't good enough

[wind cedar]

I still wanna highlight my academic experiences from high school though

[true harness]

why?

[wind cedar]

To show them my full educational experience

[vital wyvern]

Unless you attended some highly prestigious private HS institution, or had significant involvement in any sort of extracurriculars (Say you ran your Computer Science club or whatever kids do these days) I don't imagine anything that is derived from your HS education would be particularly impactful.

[fringe sphinx]

❤️ It's hard to read into the interviewers mind. Sometimes they ask questions to challenge you. There's an old story about kissinger...

http://jackmalcolm.com/2013/03/is-this-the-best-you-can-do/

[hearty island]

i think it was to test my mentality and critical thinking process

[hearty island]

test how i respond to feedback as well

[true harness]

why does someone need that? even for academia CVs, where you put literally everything you have ever done, you still don't see high school

[wind cedar]

This is on my LinkedIn profile

[true harness]

ah. you are the same person that asked about this last time. consider going back and reading; i don't think the advice will have changed

[sand veldt]

That was a fun read but I feel like you should draw a line between it could be better and I should overwork myself

[slim steppe]

hi guys im new to python and this server

[pine sleet]

welcome

[steel pendant]

I’m in India and working as a python software developer in senior role. Now I’m looking for opportunity to get a job in US. where would I start ?

[smoky quest]

It comes down to finding a job in the USA where a company would sponsor you

[upbeat harbor]

hey everyone

[coral canyon]

same even i am looking for an opportunity to get an job in Canada

[twilit mulch]

My Goals is to conquer the world for a common good

Anyone want to join in my goal

[white relic]

Congrats on graduating!
Advertising paid services is not allowed here though.

Better to remove the message before a moderator does

[plush summit]

😂

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I'm always confused by whether the moral is: Kissinger was an a-hole, or whether that was good leadership, or whether it's a parable about doing your best and standing up for yourself.

[white relic]

it can be two things

I think there's a positive lesson in the story but I don't know if the way Kissinger taught it is admirable

[tired panther]

hellow

[rigid sinew]

hi

[wary iron]

Hi

[tough sable]

hi

[vapid jay]

should i learn dart or java? i want to create android apps and i already know python

[fickle jackal]

i have just started , wanna ask about dummy book

any suggestions please

[vapid jay]

Your best option is to find a remote job in the us

[tired panther]

Kotlin can be a better option

[vapid jay]

i mean, if i learn java, wont kotlin be easier for me to learn?

[tired panther]

Kotlin is easier then Java

and it is on the JVM

I really like the syntax of Kotlin because it's like java but with less typing

[keen steppe]

Question for anyone reading this, what's your favorite part about being a programmer or the part you enjoy about it that motivates you to code and get up in the morning?

[trim crypt]

knowing that people are using it are benefiting from your hard work

[buoyant seal]

i don't know android development but i will recommend Java
for the purpose of sharing code base between server side (backend) and your android apps.
That should help making easier development in terms of code logic reusage.
I don't know advantages of dart though
Another reason to choose java: because it is more multipurpose and well supported (never saw modern ecosystem support for Dart in terms of backend writing at least, so dart is probably specifically specialized on UI only)
Java can help you making broader coverage of job market, since u capture multiple job roles with easier switch between them

[vapid jay]

aight, java it is, thank you so so so much

[keen steppe]

Thats a nice reason, hope your code helps a lot of people ^^

[brazen island]

Kotlin is now the preferred language for making android apps. It's also a lot more "modern" than Java.

That being said, knowing some Java is great because you can move over to Kotlin later on. That's especially important because whenever you learn a language on the JVM they'll assume you have some notions of Java.

[opal maple]

Hey, i have a question: Im currently looking for a summer job, and i really want to do some programming (python prefferably), since i am pretty good at it for my age (ranked 23rd in the countries programming olympiad for people in the 11th and 12th grade), despite this i am 17 (Started coding when i was 10), and legally underage. If there is a chance for me to get a job, where should i look for it? (My dad said that if i don't get a job, i will be doing something with clay at the countryside, i didn't hear it till the end)

[buoyant seal]

Also Java catches up and more stable and mature, and Kotlin is kind of unstable beta for Java things today

[fringe sphinx]

two things: Network (ask around and be curious) - you're more likely to get a chance from someone you know or speak to: friends, family, friends of friends, etc. And there are more jobs in tech than just programming: testing, helpdesk, computer repair, etc. Any job that's related to the field is a good chance to learn more about the industry.

[opal maple]

thakns

[gritty rivet]

I get paid good money to solve interesting puzzles at home

[minor willow]

what would you guys suggest to look for entry level jobs

[formal lily]

Hey guys, i got an entry level position at a big bank. The position, however, is in another state. Because I have disabled family at home, as well as other factors, the only way i can take this job is if i fly there once a week. The flight is 180$ and the position is hybrid. My recruiter wont make any exceptions even though they have an hq in my city. The contract says i have to stay there for 18 months Should i take this position?

[white relic]

that's really a very personal decision for you.
I wouldn't take a job that required flying every week even if they paid me very well. But travel is stressful for me and I don't need a job now (and I'm sure I could get another that didn't require flying in less than 18 months).
If you are not bothered by flying, if you really need the job, if you don't think you can find a comparable offer in the next year, if the compensation is enough to afford the regular flights plus whatever other expenses you have, all will be factors you have to consider.

[gritty rivet]

Now. Why wait?

[formal lily]

Thats fair. Thank you. Either me taking or not taking both seems bad in their own ways. Ive also been out of college for a year now and it seems entry level position is mostly for students who are about to graduate. Its gonna be hard to find another job especially since im limited to one city

[minor willow]

where should i look ?

[near ocean]

Linkedin, indeed, insert local job board here

[hearty island]

linkedin is where i got all my interviews

[minor willow]

I have been but no luck

[open ivy]

Anyone else have a long-standing passion for programming but has trouble getting a job? What drew you in to programming? Its amazing how code comes alive and I was always fascinated with genetic algorithms and physics simulations.

[left sand]

is there somewhere were i can spam

[near ocean]

No

[golden ruin]

what is the exact purpose of oop like how do we use in building apps and projects using py

[peak halo]

This would be a question for #software-architecture

[pastel thunder]

really?
every other job post has 1K + applications, how did you make your presence felt

[near ocean]

Linkedin application counts are nonsense

[hearty island]

linkedin application counts aren't real

[true harness]

apparently, the application count is actually just the number of people that have looked at the application

[upbeat harbor]

hello everyone

should i go for web development or mechine learning

[balmy mural]

Those are two very different fields. Which interests you more?

[zinc tartan]

Hello everyone! Are there among you people that have learnt Python (or programming in general) by themselves later in life than uni (not related degrees or no degree at all) and succeeded in making a career change?
I'm 33 and targeting data analytics

[vapid jay]

Good question

[smoky quest]

Some folks did

[analog sun]

Hello, please respect channel topics

[open ivy]

This seems like resumes are not for you. I failed to get jobs after 800+ applications in a similar situation, although I had a PhD in another STEM degree. Don't trust me, at least try resumes and see what happens after 50-100 applications. Just don't expect all that much.

But you have a genuine interest in programming, to be self-taught. That is good for making friends who are also tech-geeks since it's not just about "the money". So I suggest you focus on having healthy social relationships first, above resumes. Mental health is health, and without that it is very hard to function before or during a job.

Friends also help in times of need. Such as needing a job. Oh yes so I re-invented networking lol.

[gritty rivet]

That describes me. I got in over two years ago (from general IT help desk to backend/API development). I don't know if I could pull it off in today's market.

[open ivy]

In the age of huge online job markets, there is a huge difference in call-back rates between people.

If your resume is very strong you get large numbers of interviews.
If your resume is weak you get very, very few.

It was not such a night-and-day difference back when the market was small and local, I believe.

But there is a flip-side: There are enough people with weak resumes who actually are pretty good. They make a talent pool, that if can be sorted out properly, are easier employees to employ. I met someone with a startup designed to do this, very young in development.

So helping on the resume, if it is near the "pivot point", could be BIG help to whoever!

[kindred rock]

Learned by myself.
Got 2 years of experience.
It's kinda possible, but depends on where you live and stuff.

[kindred rock]

I noticed Zero callback improvement over different iterations of my CV.
I think it's copium.

[vapid jay]

Find a way to get experience somehow someway, cuz it’s a degree with a bit of experience or alot of experience without a degree

Or if you’re in the US, get certificates cuz they are very valuable over there

[kindred rock]

That's interesting.

Any improvement?
Do you have like a time chart?

[deft herald]

Exactly why I started versioning my resume

Also sneaking a little version number in the footer is fun, that way when you go onsite for an interview, you make sure to have some printed copies of the latest version on you. Then you can impress everyone by asking "oh sorry, did you have version 1.2? Let me update you with version 1.4 of my resume"

Then they think "this guy has a versioning system for his resume? Why would we not hire him?"

I guarantee if you're applying for a software job, no one will find it weird

It doesn't have to be huge and bold at the top of the page. I just mean a little subtle v1.2.3 in the bottom right footer, probably like 50% gray or something

Then you won't be able to tell what version on a printed copy

Which interviewers often have during an in-person interview

Still - they migt have a printed copy on them to look at when talking to you

[gritty rivet]

It really depends on the certification and the role. There are a lot of crap certifications, and even the ones that do carry real wait in specific infrastructure-oriented roles aren't that valuable for a general SWE

[deft herald]

Unreasonable? Bro that's a free vacation

Yeah. If i got an onsite that didn't pay for flight/accommodations there's no way i would take it haha. When i got an onsite to Apple a few years back, they did all that. Hooked me up in a nice hotel, car rental, per diem, everything. I had so much fun i seriously considered applying to tons of jobs in fun places just to get the free trip haha

cough i do not condone this blah blah cough

All it requires is the ability to make it to that point in an interview process...which is quite difficult

I mean it does...

Never a bad thing to get more interview practice

That is absolutely wonderful advice. I feel like i've gotten more offers when i sort of "clicked" with the team on a social level rather than just impress them with pure technical skills

Granted both are important, but sometimes that can really be the deciding factor.

[open ivy]

The social aspects of a job hold me back more than the technical aspects.

1. I don't make good first impressions.
2. I click very well with others similar to me in key ways, but few people have those "ways".

But programming is the art of not working. The job revolves around getting machines to do stuff so we don't have to. This favors people who think differently.

[south forum]

When do yall think this market situation is gonna get better/ will it ever get better?

[open ivy]

Better for who?

1. Those who are forced to program because their parents/teachers/etc said so.
2. Those who were drawn to the high salaries.
3. Those who enjoy the art and craft and the cool things you can make.

[south forum]

2

freelancing is absolutely painful, you get a client, you do the job. so far so good. then when it comes to getting paid you gotta haggle with them for weeks

its always a "will send it today" "busy right now"

[vapid jay]

3

[open ivy]

It probably will never be as good for (2) the "high salary seeker" people as it was in the heyday.

I think of Wall street. Plenty of well-known people making a lot of money. But many more who fail to get into these hyper-competitive positions. And are stuck with lower wages or a different career entirely. No matter how high the salary is, if its very hard to get into then its not a "good" situation.

[deft herald]

It's gonna get better, but it might get worse, then it will get better again and then probably worse again...

[open ivy]

For (3) (people who love the craft) it should bounce back, but such a bounce will likely be invisible in the stock market.

Going back to my wall street example, what should people looking for a modest ~100K salary and the enjoyment of the craft do? Marketing! Which is different than sales. Marketing is fundamental analysis of which products will do well in the market and fill unmet needs. This can be very interesting.

The same idea happens in programming. There will be plenty of small-tech applications. Such as getting a 3D printed robot to run properly. As long as there is automation someone has to tell the machines what to do.

Currently companies are "pin-point" hiring people with years of experience. Sometimes asking for more years than the age of the language!

But ChatGPT has far more training data than any employee could ever have. I think this will swing us back to a world of "hire smart and curious people, and specific skills are secondary". Love the craft enough and you will become smart and curious. And enjoy your work.

[fringe sphinx]

When was the heyday? Seriously, the market isn't that different than it was 10 years ago (we've gone through these economic/hiring cycles many times). It's just different than the weird Covid overhiring.

[strange nova]

Yoo fly me out 👀

I need to get rich

I smell blood...

[open ivy]

For (2) the heyday was right when google was starting to ramp up salaries but before it was widely known just how much programmers could make. That was a sweet spot for those chasing high salaries.

[fringe sphinx]

That's a hey day? Seems like a very cherry picked brief moment.

That affected a very small percentage of swes. The average SWE never made 400k

And, mid level SWEs still command a significantly higher salary than ever before.

I talking median, no "t 90th percentile.

[strange nova]

I had trouble focusing earlier but now i want to kill it like its the first day again. I'm going straight for the throat, I'm getting that 100k

60k? FUCK THAT

Tf u pithinking me for- obviously u don't know how hungry I am

[carmine plank]

anyone here using far manager to write c++

[deft herald]

Maybe it's because 60k really isn't very much anymore, even for entry level

[true harness]

depending on area, of course

[strange nova]

Half of this shit is 60k

[fast fossil]

I would love 60k down where I live

[deft herald]

Hmm, alright i suppose that's valid

[strange nova]

I should be a fucking millionaire! I'm not settling

AHHHHHHHH!!!!!

[leaden jasper]

Let's keep this channel on topic with productive discussion please.

[hasty lagoon]

Guys how would you code this

[fringe sphinx]

Wrong channel, you could open a help thread or ask in #python-discussion

[hasty lagoon]

Ohh mb

[open ivy]

This is a common problem:

• It gets well known that you can make $$$ in some field.
• Many people are drawn in.
• Most fail.

It is really bad in sports. Where MLB basketball players make millions. But if you are "only" top 0.1% instead of 0.00001% than you are out of luck.

I am not driven by high salaries. But the sheer number of people coming to software for the $$$ regardless of how true this is may hurt my chances at maintaining even modest salaries?

[rose dirge]

How do I run this script in python for webscraping? https://pastebin.com/zNa54nwh

[deft herald]

You can open a help channel for help

[tidal gazelle]

In around 2050-2060, do you guys think that software engineering or computer science will be less in demand, or maybe obsolete?

[tidal gazelle]

i should probably add on that i will be get a masters degree in one of the following, so would any of these be better than others in terms of not getting replaced and getting a job?

[severe dawn]

Is there any computer science jobs that allow to make $500k minimum per year?

[kindred oyster]

yes

[severe dawn]

Which ones?

[kindred oyster]

very very senior positions of roles

[severe dawn]

Even cto officer Don't make that much

There was a cs guy that I met before that told me about a job like that

[smoky quest]

they make a lot more than that. But the thing is the more senior you get, the more your compensation is equity based rather than base salary

[severe dawn]

They make 500 to 700k I forgot the name of the Job sadly

[severe dawn]

The average is much lower but maybe the ones that work in Google and Facebook make more yep

[smoky quest]

you might be surprised about the compensation for the average CTO.
That said, no need to worry at this time. Let's cross the bridge when we get there

[severe dawn]

Yep true

https://www.sheridancollege.ca/pro
grams/bachelor-computer-science what do you guys think of this program?

[errant otter]

can anyone help me code

[severe dawn]

Link was not opening but the name is Honours Bachelor of Computer Science by sheridan I might go to this program

[kindred oyster]

if you need help with your code , ask in #python-discussion or read #❓｜how-to-get-help

this is the wrong channel for help with code

[tidal gazelle]

@smoky quest sorry but would you be able to help on this?

[smoky quest]

don't worry about 2060. It's too far away.
So use them more the direction you want your career to take. Security is very different from ML, which is also very different from image analysis or robotics

[tidal gazelle]

okay well so i would probably want a job that is secure in the future. I would finish my masters (and likely get employed) in 2029.
So i wanted to know whether that job would hold in the future so I can continue working

[smoky quest]

I appreciate the sentiment, but try to look back in the past.
The first iphone was released in 2007. AWS didn't pickup until ~2008-2010. Deep Learning wasn't even a thing at that time either.
Covid or other worldwide changes weren't even on people radar back in 2010 either.

So the career should be based on the fundamentals rather than specific items.

python is great

[smoky quest]

Related to the fundamentals, that's why the math and theory is so important. While technologies will be invented, the fundamentals won't change.
Security will be security. Computer vision will be computer vision. They will evolve and with your fundamentals you will have to continue learning and growing

great language too

The best thing for your career will be a CS degree as it is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[tidal gazelle]

I'm sorry I didn't really understand the last line do you mind explaining?

[tidal gazelle]

And what do you think about the data that shows the decline (comapred to 2021 and 2022) of the number of tech jobs? I hope this source is valid

[vapid jay]

i have a question

i have an intel core i5 and 16gb ram, but android studio is such a heavy app, so is there anything more lightweight i can use? or can i use eclipse ide??

[open ivy]

I would say "fundamentals" also includes stuff like "I have 10 manual tasks that I do. Which ones are worth automating?" Not always an obvious decision.

[gritty rivet]

If you take a longer term view, it's clear that the tech industry has grown and is not necessarily in any real decline: https://www.statista.com/statistics/200003/number-of-job-openings-in-the-us-information-sector/

[buoyant seal]

When u use Linux, u can install Zram.
Runtime compression for RAM, effectively doubling memory if using aggressive enough algorithm and high percentage of memory converted to Zram (default 50%)

[dense sundial]

Hey guys, i'm planning to make a resume for getting an internship, is there anyone who has a sample resume/template for the same?

[near ocean]

#career-advice message
its in the pins too

[dense sundial]

Tysmm

[chrome shale]

i had the chance to take a job related to odoo and took it now im regreting it bc documentacion is indeed a trash can
is there any real path to become an odoo dev? the ui has no sense

[kind condor]

I wanted to do learn something in python take some big projects. What are the best projects would be good. I know SQL and Python Basics

[fringe sphinx]

!kindling Have you seen this list?

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[fringe sphinx]

Never heard of it. Is it popular?

[dire hinge]

What

[vapid jay]

TypeError: BotBase.init() missing 1 required keyword-only argument: 'intents'

[analog sun]

Hello, you might be looking for #python-discussion or #discord-bots , this channel is for discussing careers

[wide briar]

Is this good for a beginner?

[kindred oyster]

this is not the channel for this

please see channel description before sending the message

[wide briar]

ah mb

[scarlet laurel]

lessgooo

[whole flare]

All the best

[gritty rivet]

Yes Odoo is pretty popular: https://github.com/odoo/odoo

[kind condor]

Nope bro

[native sedge]

How ?

[tired panther]

hi

[open ivy]

I am saying that bieng able to make decisions of when to automate what is an important skill to have. It's easy to choose the wrong "battles" to fight.

[fluid python]

that awesome

a lot i do in my hobby is coding, im on edge whether i want to pursue python as career, it could feel like working overtime

[dreamy spade]

What’s it like having a technical manager?

[chrome shale]

not popular between devs but with bussinessmen yeah its pretty big.. it competes with sap and ibm as an open source erp solution, being the cheapest one

[balmy spade]

Not unlike having a non technical manager. Business goals are assessed, aligned, and actioned. 1:1s cover performance, needs, and wants. They are always in meetings. They approve time off requests. The usual.

[true harness]

they might be more involved in technical decisions. but that's not their main focus

[dreamy spade]

I ask because my manager is non-technical. Sometimes my manager doesn’t come up with the best technical ideas or solutions. I try my best to give him the best technical advice and that’s best I can do. Ultimately, he makes the final call (or his superior) whether he wants to follow through with my advice or pick the direction he wants to go with that he believes is the right move.

Metaphorically, he comes to me with a concern. I can provide him the antidote or prescription. He ultimately makes the final call if he wants to take what I am prescribing him. Or take the medicine he feels is the right one to take.

[open ivy]

This is a difficult decision. Here are several approaches:

• Work a "boring" (easy) job that is straightforward but make your side-project more "cutting edge" so that it works a different muscle.
• Find a startup/other highly innovative company whose mission aligns with yours and cut back on side projects.
• Work on a non-tech job (or a job that is different enough).
• Work on a non-tech side project.
• Improve discipline and time management and work hard! Driving is a big time-waster to cut back on since it is hard to exercise or code while behind the wheel and dangerous even to think too hard (distraction).

My tech job is very cloud heavy. My side project uses no cloud whatsoever, it is physics simulation. This is enough of a gap that I can have some time for it without feeling like I am doing extra work. Do not underestimate this gap geting time to focus on (getting my laptop to do some) number crunching is a breath of fresh air after all this DevOps cloud debugging.

[balmy spade]

That sounds like a manager, yes. He is coming to you with a concern which is the small slice of the overall view he needs to consider. You offer your insight. He makes a judgement call for the entire scope with your advice in consideration.

[dreamy spade]

I suppose you have experienced the same thing that I have.

I feel that I did my job either way shrugs

[balmy spade]

I have been a manager, I am a leader, I have worked with non technical managers, and I currently working with technical leaders.

[true harness]

having experienced both, i think the only difference is that you need to use more analogies when explaining things to a non-technical manager. you still need to convey why you think a certain way, what you're doing/want to do, etc

[white relic]

If your manager is making decisions that seem misguided to you, there is usually one of three good reasons for that:

1. Your manager is a fool. (Or you are.) It happens.
2. your manager has broader non-technical concerns than you are aware of, and is fully informed of the merits of your advice vs. alternative approaches, but (correctly) decides to go with another option for reasons that may be non-technical in nature.
3. your manager has broader concerns, but is not fully informed about the merits of following your advice, and therefore (incorrectly) decides to go with another option.
   There's no reason to assume 1. is the case until it's absolutely proven. The best way to avoid 3. is to get an understanding of the non-technical issues that your manager is wrestling with and inform them of the possible (non-technical) consequences of making the wrong (technical) choice. (This is often where the analogies come in)

[buoyant seal]

i have semi technical manager. Former C# dev that not coded for years.
and fully technical the main boss-manager 😄 whose expertise can rival experienced DevOps engineers.

I would say it is in general great.
Since non technical manager understands he knows less, he agrees to my decisions because he knows i have more experience and my qualifications are a good
Well, and interacting with tech boss manager is even simpler since he knows similar stuff to me, we just know different stuff in depth.

Usually for solutions i just provide a single solution if there is no room to navigate what can be best
And if a thing to do is very open in possibilities and several stuff matches as being good directions
I just provide those possible directions after research, we make a choice (I persuade him which one to go better), he chooses
and i go for it.

Regretfully since my final boss is technical manager that knows things very well, i am not always able to persuade him to do the best stuff
Because he is experienced dev that knows values to things and understands that for some stuff other people/devs/teammates are just not ready 😄
I understand that too though so we have usually always agreement, even if i dislike sometimes the made compromises
I do like that at least in my section of stuff i maintain, no one rejects me going best quality stuff ^_^

[white relic]

FWIW, getting an understanding of what your manager is dealing with on a day to day has a tendency to give you more responsibility until you turn into a manager, which is where all those "technical" managers come from.

[balmy spade]

Indeed. As you start to expand your own view of the land, you start to approach the problems differently.

[buoyant seal]

I hear often rumours that level of understanding with each other and smooth going things is very rare.
That makes me very very cautions of ever leaving current company.
Together with in general having things modern enough in terms of tech stack, i worry to be encountering next time shit holes with less pleasant atmosphere to work with
I still wish sometimes having better payment though 😄
but afraid leaving, for the night is dark and full of terrors.

[fluid python]

thank, that is really valuable insight. this will help me find joy when i need to and balance my work and life

[balmy spade]

My thoughts have been that work-life balance is a bit of a misleading farce. It's all just different degrees of difficulty in a game of Jenga. Strive to keep the tower from falling over while knowing "balance" is a moving target.

[near ocean]

Ohno, preocts being converted

[balmy spade]

Converted to what?

[open ivy]

It's a "farce" when employers say it, usually. It is up to the employee. Generally there are ways to preserve the balance without sacrificing too much productivity long term.

[gritty rivet]

When I talk about "work-life balance" I mean:

• Am I expected to routinely work more than 40 hours per week?
• Is it practical to take my vacation time as I please or to handle personal emergencies asI need without being scolded or punished?

While this stuff should be basic everywhere,. it's not, and company cultures and policies range very widely.

[balmy spade]

I agree. The farce that I see is chasing a long term lasting balance. Things are far to dynamic for such a state to exist in the regular. The added stress of "I'm doing something wrong, I don't have the perfect balance" only does more harm. That's why I use Janga as my example. It has balance and that balance is never the same. The only way to have long-term balance is not to play.

[strange nova]

I feel like I can only really do one thing so just try to make the best of it

If I sit in a chair all day I'd have hella inflammation the next day

[true harness]

that seems like an argument for doing more than one thing. maybe get up occasionally? go for a walk?

[strange nova]

Yeh as much as I can. Just have to not overdo things. Basically just take it day by day and try to avoid going back into the nightmare

I've been up and about for two hrs now maybe time to hit the "devpod" - the workstation suspended above my head

On a pretty good streak of staying out of the nightmare so far, knock on wood.

Last time I was in the nightmare was when I went for a walk everyday and then walked too far. My face was tingling when I was sitting for a week , leg tingling when I'm standing, neck hurting unto a headache

Also in life news: I just got fucked over so I'll take any jobs I can get I guess.

I tell myself lately: be a man and deal with it

Get fucked over every step of the way for 7 years? Behind in life? No degree? Broke? Screwed over again? Program for two years straight and can't get a dope job? Be a man and deal with it

When I write about what i did, I want people to think "this guy is seriously sick in the head"

AHHHHHH!!!!!

[frosty hearth]

damn dude

[pure sage]

yo guys how do I make money? I am very comfortable with python because I have been working with it on and off since year 10 (currently end of year 11) and don't know what to do with my experience. I like coding and have decided to pursue it as a career, but I don't know where to go or what path to take.

[gritty rivet]

Sounds like what you want is a degree in CS

[pure sage]

my grades are sheit (3.18 gpa)

[true harness]

that's honestly fine

[pure sage]

also I was under the impession that all you do in college is just learn about algorithms and that I could just do that myself. Also aren't most of the resources available online. Like what would I do after that anyway?

I've seen that 8 or whatever hour hardvard cs 50 course floating around my youtube page

[true harness]

not just learn about algorithms, but that is part of it. you could learn everything in a typical curriculum yourself, but the knowledge you gain is not the only reason to go to college. at the very least, you have a credential that is accepted by employers. you also have the opportunity to network, get internships, and have a support system through your classmates.

after you get a degree you either get more education or start working

[pure sage]

Ok, valid.

[fringe sphinx]

It's sort of true and not true. The short answer is: SWE is a highly paid and competitive field. You're competing for high paying positions, and people expect SWEs to have a degree. There is a longer discussion about why, and whether you could make up the gap regardless, etc, but: don't expect to make the big bucks by taking a shortcut.

[pure sage]

SWE means software engineer right?

[south forum]

I'm looking for beta testers for my software, won't pay anything. Anyone knows where I can find some?

[frosty hearth]

freelance?

[south forum]

Freelance is pure pain

[pure sage]

I have thought about that, but I don't know what service I would sell. I don't really know how to make a website, but I could learn. Don't really know what python is used for independantly.

[frosty hearth]

for anything lol

[smoky quest]

There is so much more than that!
You can learn the math that unlocks many areas, like the ability to reason over data, the math behind jpeg compression, the math that enable you to correct errors in the data automatically).
There can be other classes about networking, robotics, computer vision, making your own programming language. And even classes about communication and sales.

[pure sage]

I think I would have to learn flask or like excel automation

[smoky quest]

A CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation for your career

[south forum]

I've been freelancing using flask

[pure sage]

Hm. I have thought about learning applied math if I do end up going to college as an option.

[south forum]

I'm proficient in web dev but trust me freelancing is painful. Try landing a permanent job

[pure sage]

I see.

[smoky quest]

It also gets more interesting as it gets applied directly.
For instance you will learn the math behind encryption. And while it can be scary, it's also quite cool because you can see a direct use of very fancy and advanced topics

[pure sage]

College sounds like a pretty good option, but I am kind of scared of tuition and student loans. How hard would it be to pay off my stuff while I'm in school?

[true harness]

what country are you in? this sort of stuff is highly country-specific. though i'm guessing US?

[smoky quest]

In the USA, starting salaries would very likely be in the 6 digits. So student loans would be more akin to an investment and a non-issue to repay

[pure sage]

yep

[pure sage]

ah, ok

[true harness]

additionally, federal student loans defer interest until after you graduate. so it's not that big of a deal to not have much income while in college

[pure sage]

well I meant that I just wanted to have as little student loans as possible to pay off if that would mean I would have to pay less overall

[celest kite]

"fine"™️

[pure sage]

Also if get really good grades in college can I transfer to a better one? I don't really know a lot about transferring.

[true harness]

in college you can get internships, which pay pretty decently (depending on area). i have enough scholarships and income from internships that i have very little debt

[true harness]

transferring is somewhat difficult and rare; you need to have a pretty compelling reason other than that your grades have improved. for between 4 year schools, at least

[pure sage]

What kind of reason would I need?

[true harness]

things like, "i really hate it here", "it costs too much" (this probably wouldn't work since a 'better' school will probably cost more or less the same)

[pure sage]

I don't understand what you mean.

[true harness]

which part

[pure sage]

I don't know what wouldn't work when you said "this probably wouldn't work"

[strange nova]

Your request to transfer schools presumably

[pure sage]

ah

[true harness]

the reasoning wouldn't make sense

[pure sage]

oh, ok

[strange nova]

"I hate it here" would work though? 😄

[true harness]

sure, if you articulated your reasoning well enough

the thing is that cost is objective, either it costs less or it doesn't. not liking something is subjective, so it will depend how well you convey your point

[gritty rivet]

Difficult and rare, In what country? In the US over 30% of students transfer at some point.

It's true that the transfer admission process is more selective, but it's common nonetheless

[north rune]

Okay so can someone help me out, I want to become a SWE, I'm currently working a job as a cook, and starting my own online business, I don't have a college degree, I don't want to go to college. That's out of the option, What's the best approach that I can do to become a SWE?

I was initially thinking about having 2 jobs, one job as a cook, second job as a QA tester, and then down the line becoming a SWE, I don't have a social life and I don't really do much other than self-study at home or work on my online business, so I have a few questions.

Q: Is becoming a QA Tester the best route into the tech industry(eventually becoming a SWE) without a degree, I have never worked prior into the Tech industry so I don't have any "real" credible work other than simple small projects I worked on GitHub

Q: How long would it take to become a QA Tester? (I know that's vague but if I study 2-4 hours everyday consistently.)

Some final embarassing information about myself is.. I willy-nilly applied to a company recently as a mid-level SWE (I just sent out applications everywhere) and one of the first questions they asked me is.. "What projects have you worked on recently".. I ended the call out of anxiety/embarassment of not knowing how to answer that question considering the only projects I have worked on was a Game in Pygame to help me learn OOP, and a Sudoku Solver implementation of backtracking/recursion to help me learn... you guessed it!.. backtracking and recursion with Python. So a little information about myself before I wait patiently for someone to answer my question is.. I just turned 20 years old, and I'm looking to become a SWE fulltime, what's the best route that I can take? I know SQL, Git & Github, PostgreSQL, MySQL, REST, (You can assume other DBMSs considering they aren't that different to each other, Python, Flask, and I'm learning (Javascript, ReactJS, HTML, CSS)

I do like Codecademy for learning core fundamentals, I know they handheld too much with a lot of things but if you force yourself to not look at the hints and instead try to digest stackoverflows answers it helps you think more about the problem.

Please ping so I can see this, I'm going to the gym. Thank you for your time reading this :)

[pine sleet]

a common path for people without a CS or related degree trying to go into SWE is going into adjancent fields (like QA testing, IT work, etc) so going into QA then shifting into SWE later on is a good plan. There isn't a "best route" into tech (aside from getting a CS degree that is)

it's also hard for us to give you a useful time frame, learning depends greatly on the person, so only you can make an informed decision on how long it would take

also you should start making some more ambitious projects

[hollow yacht]

Job question: According to the recruiter, I'm very likely about to receive an offer for a 6 month contract-to-hire role on Monday. While this role seems like it'd be working with cool, newer technologies, I'm also scared it will be hectic. If I got the offer, I'd have about 48 hours to accept.

I have a final interview with a more stable company (which also works with new tech) on Tuesday afternoon. This would be a direct-to-hire position. And the company seems to have amazing work life balance. I have done well so far in my interviews, but I don't know if I will get an offer, even if I do well with my final interview with the hiring manager...

My question is, do I just accept the position for the first job (assuming I get one?)? Or do I reject it and hope I get a job with the second position? I would much rather have the second position, but if I didn't get the second position, I would still be happy with the first one... I'm kind of torn what to do here.

[buoyant seal]

Well, if i did that, i would be avoiding to tell first company about you continuing interviewing
I understand that u are within time frames of 48 hours to do second interview? Do the interview and after its end during questions and etc, notify the second company about already received offer (if u receive it) to another company with time limit and ask if they can provide feedback quicker so u could make a good decision within expiration of an offer

That will give u i think bonus points for second company (Because someone already wishes to hire u and already gave offer)
and will not harm look for first one (because u don't seek next offers after them according to their knowledge)

[gritty rivet]

if you have to take the first offer but reneg because a better offer comes in, that's not the worst thing. Burning that bridge a little bit and better to avoid, but it happens all the time and sounds reasonable in this case

[hollow yacht]

Yeah, the final interview for the second company is in the 48 hours... that's probably what'll I do. I'll do the interview for the second company and let them know about the offer from the first.

Thank you both, this makes me feel better. I was scared about burning bridges with the first company, but worst case if I got the job with the second company I guess it doesn't matter

and if I didn't get the job with the second company, the first company wouldn't know anyway

[gritty rivet]

If you're in the US and haven't looked at WGU, it's a good way to get a degree when traditional options are truly off the table

If you want to get experience in tech in general without a degree, the lowest bar for entry is desktop support. The pay is lower but maybe better than you're making now. The ConpTIA A+ cert is a standard starting point

Overall it sounds like you're doing a lot right and if you're persistent enough I'm sure you'll find your way!

[true hatch]

Is an economics degree good?

[pine sleet]

if you want to go into economics

[smoky quest]

One approach that might work is to explain to the first company that while you are very much interested in them, you want to avoid any regret. And as such, you are wrapping an interview with another company and would like to make a decision fully informed.
You still run the risk they may refuse or find someone else in between. But it can be an interesting compromise.

Accepting the first offer and then reneging on it would mean burning the bridges with them and seen as unprofessional.

[smoky quest]

It can matter in ways that may or may not be visible to you.
Tech can be a small world and ATSes keep records for a long time.

So it would be a gamble.

[stuck raven]

If someone wanted to make a career change, would you reccomend a masters?

[strange nova]

Six years is a long time, you might as well figure that out later, depending on if you got a job already etc.

[true harness]

there are masters programs designed for career switchers. i believe those are a good option

[strange nova]

Yoo you got a call back, what was your resume lookin like?

How many apps did you put in?

[north rune]

uhhh like 10-15

I can show my resume in DMs just DM me, I made it with a resume builder online, and tried to make it look minimalistic/simplistic for the ATS tracking system, and I think there were just Keywords that really matched with what I was applying for

[north rune]

I 100000%%%%% agree with this, but when it comes to creating projects, I often notice I get stuck a lot, and the constant of looking things up makes me feel.. like.. NOT a real developer, I think I struggle the most with web design because I'm like a new born baby when it comes to creating things, but I think that's just because of my lack of experience developing webapps, like I can understand the flow.. and communication between APIs but when it comes to the front-end it becomes a PAIN in the ass

[true harness]

i'm curious why a degree is completely out of the picture. it is the easiest way to get the skills needed for software development

[north rune]

I just personally don't like that route, I think I can do more in less time, not gonna waste 4 years of my life, when I can spend 1-2 years and land a job

[true harness]

developers of all experience levels rely on referencing docs and such. but as you get more experience the things you reference change; you don't need to reference syntax as often, but you move on to other, more complex things

[north rune]

I don't have problems with consistency or staying on routine

[north rune]

I guess with that mindset, that can help me grow. Thank you for the words.

[north rune]

Thank you 🙏

[north rune]

Another key thing that I do is I look at most companies and what they are looking for, if they require FastAPI, I learn FastAPI, if they require anything else specific like CICD.. CLOUD.. etc.. I just learn it on my own

It's more straight-forward and I can take things on my own pace or create "deadlines" if I need to

[true harness]

copying something i wrote earlier:

you could learn everything in a typical curriculum yourself, but the knowledge you gain is not the only reason to go to college. at the very least, you have a credential that is accepted by employers. you also have the opportunity to network, get internships, and have a support system through your classmates.
think of college as a "awesomeness multiplier". if you are so great without college, just imagine how much better you would be with college. plus you can just graduate early; it doesn't need to take 4 years

[north rune]

I'm bad with schools, for some reason I seriously procrastinate, it just feels super boring

[north rune]

My goal is to get a SWE job as soon as possible

[gritty rivet]

You assume you can land a job without a degree which is becoming harder all the time

Even if you manage to pull it off in this market, your starting salary will almost certainly be lower, your opportunities for advancement will be limited,.etc.

I know several SWEs without degrees. Every single one got in years ago when that was more feasible. And then they all .tried and failed to get degrees later one because they realized how necessary it is, but harder to do the longer you put it off

For people who are really in a rush there's WGU. Not the same thing as a traditional degree but better than nothing

[north rune]

I don't mind.

[true harness]

objectively speaking, a CS degree is the easiest way to do that, and it will lead to the most opportunities and greater compensation

[true harness]

this seems contradictory to your statements that you can set deadlines and learn on your own. a lot of learning in college is on your own, before and after lecture. it will be somewhat similar to being self-taught, but you will have the direction of a professor and classmates to ask for help

[north rune]

I don't like

[pine sleet]

it definetely is possible to get a swe job without a degree, but just be warned it'll be easier to just get the degree

[north rune]

I'm aware, but I can't leave to go to college, I need to work to provide for my grandmother

[deft herald]

You can work and go to college at the same time

[north rune]

I also don't mind the shitty pay

my friend is getting me into tiktok affiliate marketing, he makes 9k per month from it, and he's getting me into it, I just want to become a QA Tester -> Software Engineer for the long-term stability and also because I'm just very passionate about it.

[unique magnet]

Hello!

[north rune]

Thoughts on this? For learning QA testing?

https://www.udemy.com/course/testerbootcamp/?couponCode=LEADERSALE24A

[fringe sphinx]

Very situation specific, what's your background?

[fringe sphinx]

I don't think a lot of us have direct experience with udemy. I don't. The topics seem like good intro topics, there's obviously lots more to learn.

[brisk cargo]

why do you want a qa/sdet job? i don't think going from that to swe is any easier than going straight to swe

[smoky quest]

It can be easier as:

• You can have opportunity to write code and automate things
• You get a foot in the door of the company, which you can use to grow
• You get to build a professional network

[vapid jay]

Hi i am in my 2nd year of computer science engineering i want some suggestions on building a resume and what I should do in my 2nd year can I get little help...

[brisk cargo]

but actually getting the job in qa/sdet is still hard, because there are far fewer job openings and the companies that still hire them are generally lower tier. not to mention the hiring stigma for people with qa/sdet on their resume and that qa in general is typically a tedious job

[north rune]

I don't mind tedious, I can handle extremely physically demanding jobs or even mentally demanding jobs

[smoky quest]

Sure, and there is a reason a CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation. Foregoing the degree means an extremely difficult path

[brisk cargo]

if your long-term goal is to be a software engineer, being a qa engineer will not help you achieve that, and certainly not be faster or easier than going straight for swe roles directly. most of the time yoe as a qa engineer don't even count towards swe yoe

fwiw i don't have a degree and it's never hindered my career. i don't have an education section on my resume, and recruiters and hiring managers never ask where i went to college

[smoky quest]

Congrats!
However it does hinder quite a bit for most people, making it very difficult for the most interesting positions

Furthermore, college and degrees have a great value beyond the paper as it sets you up for success.
It's like compound interests where a degree will give you great benefits which in turns give great jobs which in turns give even greater access to even better jobs, etc.
So while a degree may not be asked 20 years later, it still has an outsized impact on one's career

[stuck raven]

Biology. I'm working through a youtube course on Python. My next project is to learn some linear algebra.

[brisk cargo]

unless it's a degree from a top 3 school, i don't think there's that large of an impact in having a degree vs not having one. i do think OP should consider a degree -- if you're not able to learn through school, chances of success being self-taught are pretty low. but my education has never come up in interviews with apple, fb, msft, or amazon

[strange nova]

Hi! What's your story up to the point of interviewing at big tech, if I may ask?

[smoky quest]

my experience shows there is a large impact between having a degree from not having a degree. That impact is far bigger than which school someone got that degree at

[brisk cargo]

with the caveat that you need to have the same skills as someone who did go to school, and you need to do a lot of leetcode

[strange nova]

Like did you X have years of experience at a few jobs before interviewing at such places

[smoky quest]

I forgot to mention but FAANG companies being so big, whether or not your degree comes into play will depend on which team you would be looking at. Some would be quite picky for the requirements

[smoky quest]

Doing many leetcode is a sign someone is not mastering the material. Ideally, there is far more time spent learning DSA than doing leetcode

[brisk cargo]

i got my first job at a startup from this open source project i worked on in highschool, https://github.com/connorskees/grass. i started interviewing at big tech companies after about a year of experience

[stuck raven]

What do you think is missing from self-taught?

[brisk cargo]

missing? you mean like what things do you not learn when you're self-taught?

[stuck raven]

Yeah like what do you think college programs do well that an online course/self-taught miss out on? I'm debating taking a master's program at my local state school.

[smoky quest]

The main issues with self taught are:

• They are more likely to develop stronger imposter syndrome
• They have more issues with abstract related thinking
• They have a tendency to jump straight to whatever solution they can think of rather than taking a step back
• They have a tendency to focus on a specific tool they know well. If you only have a hammer, everything is a nail
• They struggle with more math/abstract related problems as they lack the background and tools to handle these

It doesn't mean they are bad. It means they are great at a different set of problems. They also happen to be cheaper as there are more candidates

[brisk cargo]

i think generally the difference is in the order of operations. self-taught people tend to start by trying to build something vs schools generally start with the fundamentals. the former is pretty fun, because you get to focus on writing code that actually does something practical, but you do need those fundamentals

[smoky quest]

Don't go in a master to compete with self-taught and bootcamps.
Go in a master to get deeper insights and skills, which opens different doors and opportunities

[brisk cargo]

do you have a cs bachelor's

in my opinion there's nothing that a school could teach you about CS that you couldn't learn on your own. the only question is if you're self-motivated enough to sit down and read the book or the blog post or write the code to learn it

[stuck raven]

Thanks for the advice @smoky quest and @brisk cargo. No I have a Biology Bachelor's.

[smoky quest]

biotech types of jobs might be an interesting avenue as it enables you to leverage your background rather than be hindered by it

[smoky quest]

In theory, sure. In practice that would not happen

[brisk cargo]

in the case of a masters to switch into cs, that's pretty common. i think i know an even split of people who got an unrelated bachelors and then switched to cs with/without getting a masters

with a masters, since it's only 2 years it's much nicer

[brisk cargo]

most universities post their lectures and courses on youtube. there's no reason this couldn't happen

[stuck raven]

Yeah that's a great idea I was considering something like that with bioinformatics. I'm honestly still figuring out what I want to do with my career but regardless I'm going to try to learn as much about coding/python as I am capable in the forseeable future.

[strange nova]

I'm gutting some 6000 line program I made a long time ago to make a library and post on GH. Feeling a bit hyped rn.

[smoky quest]

in theory, sure. In practice, bootcamps/self taught don't peruse through textbooks and learn advanced theory. If they did, they would have been through college

[smoky quest]

it's a very fun and interesting journey!
There is so much to learn!

[brisk cargo]

ah, well, that's what i mean by if you're self-motivated enough. if someone wants to be successful and self-taught, this is what they have to do

[smoky quest]

Sure.
But again, having interviewed, hired and worked with many self taught, that's not the norm.
Plus if you are gonna put the work, you might as well get the credit for it 😉

It's already a pain to get students to care about rings and groups and laplace transforms. I can't imagine being aware of these as a self taught, let alone wanting to learn them and do the exercises and projects that go with it

[brisk cargo]

i think that's a good example of why you'd potentially want to be self-taught

there's no reason a software engineer would have to know abstract algebra, and skipping that field of knowledge altogether would let you focus on more practical knowledge

so you could learn what you would after 4 years worth of school in far less time

[smoky quest]

sure but then it makes you focus on lower end jobs with lower pay and lower opportunities

[brisk cargo]

not really

[smoky quest]

If I want a code monkey, I can get any bootcamp/self taught off the street for low pay

[brisk cargo]

and to be clear i'm not really speaking in the abstract about the quality of self-taught engineers in general. just saying that if you'd like to teach yourself to be a software engineer, it is very feasible and will not hinder you

[smoky quest]

I hear you and it's admirable. I haven't seen it in practice.

[brisk cargo]

but you have to know at least as much as someone who did go to school

[strange nova]

Yeah that's admirably optimistic 😄

How long did it take you to get to such lvl during high school?

[brisk cargo]

about 2 years

[strange nova]

I practice for a few years too just need to believe in myself

[smoky quest]

One additional advice: hope is not a strategy.
So do not hesitate to get feedback frequently and to iterate. Also try different things and see what works and what does not

[strange nova]

I could change completed websites to completed and hosted

[smoky quest]

Yeah I +1 Lisan Al Gaib.
It's a great start in the right direction!

The main issue I see is your projects don't feel as strong as your competition. Which may reduce the number of companies willing to call you back for an interview.
I would suggest to look for other resumes posted previously in this channel to see what others are doing

[strange nova]

I guess I'm not creative anymore I can never think of a project I wanna do 😄

[smoky quest]

Creativity is a process, not a eureka moment in your bath

Note also that HM/recruiters don't care about the nature of the project. They only care about the 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏

[strange nova]

Thank you. I improved my thing a bit already! As for a project I will have a look through above and online then decide on one.

Writing in my resume feels a bit like the same writers block, as I feel like I'm just stretching what is essentially shit lol

[smoky quest]

indeed. And it can be quite strange as an exercise.
But it's also a good reminder that an engineer needs more skills than just writing code. Communication is key.

Related to it, I do like this cheeky quote from Mark Twain:

“I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead.”
― Mark Twain

[strange nova]

I'm still taking in the wealth of info from Lisan's message. @smoky quest so when you say my projects aren't as strong, do you mean wording wise or that they can't be salvaged in any way 😄

Are there ones in here in which I'm just putting lipstick on a pig 💀

[left gust]

Hey

[strange nova]

Omg I'm writing complete bullshit right now 😂: "optimized computer repair process by creating a heuristics checklist"

[smoky quest]

they are more like beginner projects. Which you need anyway for your practice and learning. But you will need stronger projects for jobs

[strange nova]

Ugh.. OK so beginner project, beginner project, compiler 😂💀

oh the wheels are turning in my head- something about a REST API!!! We need rest api

I'll upgrade this gaming website with that

[smoky quest]

you can also use roadmap.sh as an inspiration or job ads.
They will list skills that you would want to demonstrate

[strange nova]

Tbh I have felt like I'm just wading through the sea , and I don't even know how long I have felt like that.
I just find new things, code like 50 lines a day to see how they work, and memorize the shit out of everything I did that day

I haven't taken a day off from doing that for eight hours everyday in.... 530 days

I told my friend back then that I was gonna hit it 8hrs every day until I change my life

Or more like I've been walking through the desert and just hope that my feet don't fail me lately

Lol. Yeah have been trying to branch out. I feel like my projects always start out as a similar permutation relative to eachother 😂 I'd be like "wow another requests permutation, great"

Lmao. The one word I do know and struggling to think of words to start sentences with!

Not that it matters I guess, my resume not finished until my projects are fixed up, and who knows when that will be.

I used to have the momentum of youth like everyone else, then I had everything taken from me over and over again. Now I'm just trying to find or make there have been a reason for it all. I'm walking around outside at four in the morning. I made myself drunk by thinking about it.

[strange nova]

Imma push it and do this because yall homies took the time to help me

Finish strong!!!!

[versed seal]

btw guys what unis should i be applying to in the US if i wanna pursue AI or ML name unis except the ivy leagues or the top ones like some which are easier to get into then them

[desert cipher]

@kindred oyster Hi bro

[kindred oyster]

better would be one of the off topic channels imo since its not really python career question

[desert cipher]

Ok ok

[gritty rivet]

I googled it for you. Obviously the very top of the list are hard to get into but it's a long list. https://edurank.org/cs/ai/na/

Any CS degree could be enough to allow you to get into that field but you'll want to continue on for a graduate degree.

[vapid jay]

Currently doing AS Levels, (1st year) in the UK, I’m doing maths, computer science and economics. I know I’ve failed maths already -> chances are I have to do a retake year, but I won’t be able to do CS, maths or eco again.

I want to drop out and pursue a career in programming and trading/e-com

[balmy mural]

The best way to pursue a career in programming is to get a degree in CS. So if you still have any way to turn your grades around, I'd suggest doing that instead of dropping out

[vapid jay]

There are also MCOO’s (edx) that have certifications courses you can take for free. Tons of computer science, and even AI certs. It’s a good way to build knowledge if you plan to dropout. Harvard/google and other major companies and universities upload their courses. You’ll only need to pay for the actual certification when you finish. All self paced, all online. Website is well done and feels like an actual college course too. Highly recommend it

[balmy mural]

Certs generally don't carry much weight, if any, in the field

[vapid jay]

I get that, but if you plan to drop out of college completely, I’d say it’s a good step to take. You may get lucky, and it’s better than just using YouTube, imo. you can at least put certs on a resume

[balmy mural]

imo, if you want to go into software engineering, you shouldn't plan to drop out of college. The path of least resistance is getting a degree, so you should do anything in your power to not drop out. Getting into the field without a degree is getting harder and harder as time goes on. I'll refer back to dowcet's message here. All the degreeless SWEs he knows realized later on how important a degree is and tried to get it later, even after they had a job

Don't plan for the hardest path. Try your best to stay on the path of least resistance, and if things don't work out, look for alternatives at that point

[vapid jay]

I agree completely! Keep trying with college, but if that can’t work for you, look for online certification courses. Keep in mind, there are those who receive degrees and still can’t manage to land a job, it goes both ways. In my opinion, it’s more so right employer, right time, than anything.

[balmy mural]

I currently know people who did bootcamps that basically hire you for a set salary after the bootcamp and then they place you at companies for a certain amount of time before those companies take over your contract and become your employer. Even the bootcamps had to let them go cause they literally can't place people right now. On the other side, I don't currently know a single person with a degree in CS who are unable to find a job.

If you can't get a degree, work on projects that demonstrate relevant skills for the jobs you want to apply to, not certifications that don't carry any weight

[queen vessel]

what do you guys think about specializing in reinforcement learning?

[open ivy]

I predict an AI winter. What made AI so good was a massive increase in training data. In terms of person-hours this is the biggest labor cost of developing AI, not the core algorithms.

But I don't see this scaling up even more.

[jade lagoon]

wfwf

[vapid jay]

How easy is it to learn GCSE Python.

[trail oxide]

Hey, I'm feeling quite confused at the moment. I'm currently working as a junior Full Stack engineer, and I'm eager to expand my knowledge. Between Web 3 and DevOps, which one offers more scope and future prospects, especially considering the booming growth of AI? Or any suggestions!

[lapis wind]

Unbelievably easy

If you spend anything over like 4 hours messing with Python, making functions and calling them, you'll be fine

[lapis wind]

Don't bother with web3 it is a pointless money soaking pit and doesn't actually grant you access to any good well paying jobs with career growth

[buoyant seal]

As a full stack engineer it will be imensively helpful if u learned backend development in depth. A lot of skills from it will boost your front skills

https://www.amazon.com/Test-Driven-Development-Kent-Beck/dp/0321146530
https://www.amazon.com/Unit-Testing-Principles-Practices-Patterns/dp/1617296279
Learning unit testing thoroughly will put you at minimum adequate level to be one

[buoyant seal]

learn in depth raw SQL engine like postgresql. learn about indexes, debugging with explain, advanced level to query all stuff.
That is base fundamental basis that will go with you through all ORMs
You will be able writing acceptable enough code in terms of performance

[trail oxide]

Hum huh, Understood.

[buoyant seal]

Learng about coding further with https://www.amazon.com/Code-Complete-Practical-Handbook-Construction/dp/0735619670
It covers a lot of aspects and recommends what to read next
That will boost both your back and front skills further

Eventually learning static typing with mypy on strict mod configuration, and if u are serious about frontend, u should learn typescript too

learn materials for coding architecture things https://www.amazon.com/Clean-Architecture-Craftsmans-Software-Structure/dp/0134494164
And let your skills to blossom at the level of writing neat reusable new libraries and frameworks
refactoring your code to be even better in quality than before

[trail oxide]

Oh, thanks man.

[buoyant seal]

u can of course become devops engineer later if u wish but it will benefit you to get hand of backend throughly first
devops engineer is not a starting position, it asks you to be already proffecient system admin for many years or backend devs experienced

devops engineering skills with make for you nearly impossible to advance further skills in other job roles like frontend
and it will make harder for you to remain comptent in backend skills too. It will ask for a lot of commitment to balance your dev skills with infra skills properly

so withold from it if u aren't super enthusiastic about it, and better become good backend dev at least first, after that u will be able to become much more succeful devops engineer if u will still have desire about it

[trail oxide]

Got it, I'll focus on mastering backend stuffs first before considering DevOps. Hmmm

[buoyant seal]

Essentially my advice try to be not becoming a Jack of all Trades.
People need specialists knowing stuff in depth. They need good backend devs, they need good frontend people, they need good devops engineers too
But they don't need a person that knows barely anything and that had during this experience manager duties in addition (or some other stuff) and barely developed his all job roles skills in depth

U can be a good paid backend/frontend person, u don't really need to become devops engineer for that or any other job role having

[trail oxide]

All right, it makes more sense now

[buoyant seal]

some disclaimer though, i am person that balancing devops engineering and backend duties
and i would say most people will not be able doing that. people rarely have apptitude to do infrastructure engineering duties.
It would be probably far easier career for you just to concentrate on becoming excellent backend dev+ front.
but if u will learn eventually infrastructure skills and will find yourself at comfort solving infrastructure related stuff, working with linux, AWS and all cloud configurations, terraform, pulumi, ci cd and etc. With diving deep into configuring monitoring, tracing solutions, customizing them, intergrating with AWS,kubernetes whatever. Then feel free to join this path

not every job opening is really nice and real regarding devops engineering though, a good portion of job vanacies are just system administrator ones that are less satisfying than being backend/front dev i would say (and for some reason misnamed as devops engineering job vanacies)

[buoyant seal]

a good starting point to be an infra dev is learning docker (and compose) in depth https://www.amazon.com/Docker-Deep-Dive-Nigel-Poulton/dp/1521822808
This skill will benefit your backend job career too, as will help you having far more powerful local development environment
raising in 20 seconds different versions of databases and compiling your backend/frontend applications at something can be universally launched across servers, container scheduling systems without needing extra details
This is an essential foundational brick to entire multiple ecosystems of solutions, so better getting hang of docker well
if u will learn it well and beyond basic level, u will be able using it to your advantage with hacking dev env around to have easier development.

[trail oxide]

I really appreciate it and thank you for the brief overview from your view. I'm excited to explore more opportunities in infrastructure-related tasks as well. I have practical knowledge in Linux, networking, and Docker, which I believe can be valuable in tackling DevOps challenges. Looking forward to contributing in this area too! Thanks again man I mean it!

[buoyant seal]

^_^ You could continue your journey further on this path then with getting hang of terraform https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/terraform-up-and/9781098116736/ or pulumi.
Learn to automate everything as a code, for some popular used cloud provider like AWS.

Apply your knowledge of Docker and after deploying to EC2, learn deploying to container scheduling systems like AWS ECS
systems like AWS ECS abstract away the need to deal with hosts directly, and allow using to full advantage containerized immutable deployments
Get hang of using stuff from AWS RDs like
Learn customizing your infra with AWS Lambda and cron jobs in event bridge

[vapid jay]

4 hours a day?

[lapis wind]

No just like 4 hours total

[vapid jay]

Is there any videos you recommend watching at all or?

[lapis wind]

GCSE python effectively tests you on being able to assign a variable or two, do a loop and call some pre-defined function. Maybe if you're unlucky you have to write the function yourself

[trail oxide]

Huh hmm, Yeah got it.

[lapis wind]

That is about the entire extent of 'programming' done at GCSE level

[lapis wind]

Not really maybe have a look at realpython for some good short tutorials on the basics

Other than that check out the kidling projects bot command in this server for some beginner friendly things to start

[vapid jay]

Okay. So if I was to watch a GCSE crash course would that be good or?

[pastel thunder]

what if you get an offer, and you know second offer from different company will be higher, but you are still interviewing and it will take more time.

[vapid jay]

Does anyone know about any Level 3 IT apprenticeships would you recommend it for a school leaver to build a basic idea on IT to then progress later on into thin gs like coding career etc?

[pastel thunder]

But what if it is likely first company's working some crazy stuff I really want to do?
Also first company might give promotion.
Ideally I would want to make 1st company match the offer

the problem is 1st company likely will make offer much sooner than second company.
how long is the period to actually accept the offer, and isnt it important to acccept ASAP

and i should not negaotiate after accepting, right?

[true harness]

there is usually some leeway, maybe a week or so. and you can always ask for more time

[pastel thunder]

i think best I can do is mention " i am expecting xx from here, and would be great if they can consider and offer accordingly"

when HR from 1st discuss the offer, i mean

[pastel thunder]

asking for more time seems risky, isnt it?

I heard, someone got rejected from further rounds, for saying this.

[pastel thunder]

does this sounds fine?
or a cap?

yea off course, would do that

They have asked me too, but I am a new to this,
I answered their question naively at the start

not exactly,
but like motioned my expected ctc way low, and some other things also.

i see,

I will try to be more mindful of words

Also, Its likely they will call me,
what if they repeat the question and ask me "what do you want"
will it be unethical to change, what I mentioned earlier?

ctc (salary) lol

hmm, I hope they do.
it would look bad to switch mulitple time, so soon,

yikes

like probation, i think

yeah, ok thank you, bye.

[strange nova]

Should I write a parser, is that a stronger project 😄

[buoyant seal]

It depends on what u parse. Parsing can be a tool of good side, but it can be as well as tool for evil used.
Really depends on case to case.

[vapid jay]

hey can someono help me

ill explain further in dms

[buoyant seal]

I parsed game data and rendered web site to navigate over it, simplufying life for players of space simulator. That is usage for good.
If someone will parse a lot of private data from social networks and will use it to scam people or for other purposes like providing service to track people, that will be for evil

So, u can help with parsing and harm with parsing. Depends how u wield this double edged sword.

[vapid jay]

please 🙏

i made a script that is supposed to fill in boxes with text on discord.com/registration but display name doesnt get entered and idk why and month

bro just help me please 🙏

brooo

[true hatch]

wsg lisan

[strange nova]

Ooo and you hit an API for the data? Double the skills