career-advice

[strange pumice]

thanks ill look into it,

there is a course just called Artificial Intelligence, and like 5-8 of "Applied Artificial Intelligence".

They do have masters in just computer science, 120 ECTS

[brazen island]

Master in "DevOps and Cloud Computing Management" 😩

[strange pumice]

lol

[brazen island]

Can you get into Georgia Tech's online masters? I have friends stateside in that one

[true harness]

me too. seems highly regarded, and courses look decent

[strange pumice]

do they have an English stream, or learn the local language

[brazen island]

It's in English

[strange pumice]

Based

[brazen island]

the key consideration for that one is that it's really a lot of math and stats. You got to be sure you're into that before you do it

[strange pumice]

yeah i could, dp they have online for data science, ill check the pricing

[strange pumice]

i love math and stats, won't be a problem.

[deft herald]

no

[strange pumice]

depends on the startup

my first internship they just accepted anyone, those who didnt make it. But i think like a real visonary startup, will want to hire most experience to get the work done.

some startup will just accept anyone as long as they have the skill and can prove it. other startup will hire people with experience, and will work using a mvp model.

Hire good talents, got more work done, efficiency for business.

if you are experienced then yeah, if it's entry-level or junior then no. New businesses would not ant to spend energy or time in training new junior level engineer, they won't take the chance.

Think from the perspective of an employer

Why Hire 3-5 junior devs, when you can hire an experienced (talking like 4-7 years) dev who can do the work of 5 junior dev combined

that's why the current market is tough to entry level, with the mass lay-offs. Startups and mid companies know that there are lots of experienced devs in the market, so entry level prospects are competiting with these guys for the tech jobs

if they can pay more $$$$ why not,

no i haven't

[lapis wind]

I dont think you can strictly lump all startups under the same umbrella

It drastically depends on the size of the startup and their stage of development, for example, a very new small startup likely not want Junior developers in most cases

startups range from just got 100k seed funding to 100 million dollar companies though

If you are a very small startup with your first round of funding, your runway is likely going to be 1 - 2 years to get something that is capable of getting to the next round of funding (assuming this isn't with some angel investor or what not)

In those cases, it can pay dividends hiring someone with more experience even if they cost twice that of two juniors. But often most compensation is done with shares in the company when you are a very new small startup.

I'm not saying hiring juniors are out of the question, but normally your first hires are the most important thing in the entire startup where you need people who A) know what they are doing B) willing to move quickly and often you want people who you have already worked with or have some link to the project to begin with.

[true harness]

a senior dev can handle higher level responsibilities, but more junior devs can do more work overall, because there's more. it goes both ways

[strange pumice]

yes, in the tech space you need to factor that in, when you want to create a startup

[lapis wind]

I think for the most part as well, most initial hires for small startups that I know came from word to mouth or previous collaboration

[strange pumice]

fair

[near ocean]

Unfair

[white relic]

hiring juniors is always a short term loss with a big risk attached, things which most startups can ill afford

[true harness]

that doesn't mean you should just take any risk

[white relic]

if by "startup" you're including companies that are already established and funded enough that they can afford additional risk, sure
but then at what point do you stop calling it a startup and just call it a company

[lapis wind]

If it were me, probably still try and get experienced people.

It is going to depend from startup to startup, but typically if it is something specialized, I'd want to hire someone who doesn't need to be taught the specifics of how some systems work.

If I've got say 2$ million, and 2 year runway, what I don't want to be doing, is killing my time or my other experienced dev's time teaching a junior common coding practices or things that most Juniors need to learn, it takes my time, and it takes my experienced dev's time up.

Now say we hire a junior but they prove they are not the right fit or don't have what it takes 6 months in, I'm now going to loose even more time trying to hire someone else, setup, getting them comfortable on the project etc...

Now it sounds harsh, but that is the reality of most actual startups, I.e. startups that aren't these huge companies with millions of equity or incoming coming in or out

[mystic violet]

Hi guys, im making my own personal portfolio website today

any tips?

[lapis wind]

Junior devs often take a lot of time of your tech lead or senior dev when they're new, it is just the nature of them being junior and new to the industry and project

but in a startup often, time is a big factor, and how efficiently you make use of that time and cost is a big part of surviving

[mystic violet]

Could I make websites for free for charitable events and organisations as such for experience maybe?

[lapis wind]

Not saying that it is a blanket rule for every startup and all juniors, but I would wager it is the majority, and the ones that are hired in that position are hired more from word-to-mouth or previous interactions that give you much more confidence in that person or you already know their skills and weaknesses

[white relic]

juniors need more guidance, that's what it means to be junior

[near ocean]

What kind of guidance?

So far the only guidance i've needed and asked for is help getting around our shit codebase and thats indicative of other issues, not my own

[woeful copper]

No one is the same. Human intelligence is a bell curve. Some people also fail upwards. Seen plenty of this.

[white relic]

seniors can take responsibility for higher level and more ambiguous tasks

[true harness]

what is with the strawmans

[lapis wind]

it isn't about being slow to adapt, it is just they have spent less time in the industry and from what I've seen normally don't quite understand why you would do one thing over the other, or why some business-related decision meant something was done some way.

It can be from a technical side as well, but I think Juniors can do a good job a picking up and learning a new tech quickly.

But it is things like:

• Interacting with clients
• Planning features
• Time management & estimation
• When to do something quickly & fix later vs when to invest more time into the thing right now
• Design patterns

[mystic violet]

Could someone answer my question please?

[near ocean]

The answer is no

[mystic violet]

why no?

Sooo...

[woeful copper]

I had success with it once but that’s because I already had been doing graphic design as a hobby for 7 years.

[mystic violet]

But i dont

[near ocean]

You probably (definitely) wont be able to do work like that
Freelance is not a career option for juniors

[woeful copper]

Not what he said

[mystic violet]

i dont even know what wordpress is

[mystic violet]

Slow did it, and they make money

[near ocean]

Who?

[mystic violet]

who... wdym who

Slow so you lied to me then?

You said you do freelance for startups

[near ocean]

One person doing it doesnt mean you should try too
One person wins the lottery too but im not gonna quit my job over it

[woeful copper]

Anyway you will only have a shot with extremely small outfits and they will likely want beyond your skills. Lol. Could maybe enquire about doing it for book clubs or school club websites? (Do they even have those anymore lol)

[mystic violet]

oh wtf

[near ocean]

They do

[mystic violet]

nvm not you slow, i was thinking of someone else.

i think yall being pessimistic lol

[woeful copper]

Given that ‘ai’ is essentially just fancy pattern matching I have my doubts

[near ocean]

You could try it and find out

[mystic violet]

there are several statistics out there that say freelance earn can earn national earning average

[woeful copper]

Buddy that’s with a network and clientele that trust you

[near ocean]

For highly networked and experienced people
Not you and I

[mystic violet]

whose you and i?

im built different

[near ocean]

Go try it then

[mystic violet]

i already am tho lol

[near ocean]

Why are you asking questions about it

[mystic violet]

because i can?

its confidential, i like to seperate my real identity from my discord, please respect that

[near ocean]

If you say so 🤷‍♀️

Pretty sure the attitude is trolling

[woeful copper]

It’s easy enough to censor your opportunities whilst still proving you have viable income . Me thinks facade

[mystic violet]

Nope, i know all about the digital footprint

ok look i just realise i should have said digital footprint instead of carbon

i swear that was an honest mistake

If I was talking with a client for the first time who wanted a website made for them, what would be the first steps?

[near ocean]

Didnt you just say you were in the business already?

[mystic violet]

Well, kinda

[mystic violet]

It isnt relevant anymore, I would like this question answered tho please

Preferably, in a non troll manner

[woeful copper]

It’s been answered by three people in a non troll manner. Please stop trolling yourself, if you are genuine you have all the info you need above

[mystic violet]

Huh? No one has replied to the question I just asked.

Unless they deleted their messages, no one has answered the question

[mystic violet]

This one, to be extra clear

Or you can just ghost and troll me, thats fine too ig

[strange pumice]

working in a startup can be stressful i can tell you that first hand experience

[near ocean]

You wont find people here that know about freelancing because freelancing doesnt work as well as people think

[mystic violet]

And you know that for sure because you were a freelancer yourself?

[near ocean]

I know because they arent as common
If they arent as common that should tell you something about the job and/or the nature of freelancing

[mystic violet]

'they arent as common' and what does that mean? By what metric?

Im keeping an open mind here, just waiting for solid evidence

No point engaging in a pointless online argument so we might as well make it productive

[near ocean]

https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2023/#employment-employment-prof
Unfortunately SO doesnt distinguish between freelance and contractor

I shouldnt have to provide sources for something obvious

[mystic violet]

That seems logically normal to me. Arent jobs the primary source of income?

Freelancing is an alternative, not a replacement

[near ocean]

Yea its an alternative, one where juniors have no chance in

[wheat hatch]

Mechatronics is basically a combination of some mech, some electrical, and some computer engineering - in theory.

One of my colleagues also did mechatronics, although his education was very heavy in control engineering and not so much computer related. Different universities do things a little bit different here.

[mystic violet]

Well, at least you provided a source, I have to respect you there. Otherwise, Im going to have to disagree, apologies

[near ocean]

Youre welcome to ignore my old man ramblings and go try freelancing

Bonus points if you quit your job beforehand and try to make it just with freelancing

[wheat hatch]

It's always a good idea to quit your job on impulse haha /s

[potent root]

I think one should work with wat he got coz freelancing is difficult especially if you don't have a source of income then for starters you need to be diligent and patient because getting a gig is difficult because of the competition out there

[mystic violet]

Damn, not a single supporter. Crazy.

Exactly why I dont like people lmfao

[magic talon]

/gamemode 1

[deft herald]

Didn't you get muted for this already?

@peak halo

[magic talon]

no

[deft herald]

#career-advice message
yeah you did

[magic talon]

🤓

[mystic violet]

made me laugh

[magic talon]

same

[near ocean]

That doesnt sound very honest
Theres another indian company named Bharat Intern with 12000x followers, it looks like youre trying to scam people into confusing the two and clicking yours

[ember acorn]

here's some harsh reality... https://gist.github.com/bswck/91959fe1dd78ae053c3b83522f5d3bc7

[smoky quest]

if you have a technical trainer as professional experience, then why do you need an internship to discover what is the world of enterprise?

[white relic]

technical success is indeed not sufficient to be hired, at most places, in fact.

[near ocean]

Youre flexing your network and that's fine but have you tried using them to get a job?

[ember acorn]

I have no commercial experience as a Python Developer (no company hired me, I'm just a freelancer...)

[ember acorn]

yup.

[smoky quest]

internships are primarily targeting students who have zero experience with the real world.
It doesn't prevent anyone from finding an internship, but that will make your search more difficult.

Furthermore, a 3 month internship will hardly contribute to making you appear as such professional

Your freelancing should help though

[white relic]

the phrasing doesn't really mean anything.
"your results are not sufficient to select you" technically could mean you had the best scores of everybody, but they ran out of money for the position so they had to select nobody

[smoky quest]

not trying to read too much into it, but it could also be a case of the code being functionally right but not using the appropriate big O algorithms. But one could also argue that it should have been part of the test itself

[white relic]

it's a little weasel wordy but you have to be careful about that kind of thing. don't want to invite discrimination lawsuits

also possible that somebody clicked the wrong reject button

it does suck going from academia to industry
you're not entitled to recognition or consideration for anything you've done before and you're not entitled to feedback either

lots of people struggle with that reality.

[buoyant seal]

Wow 😮 rather impressive portfolio. Kind of wishing to recommend u to our company recruiters hehe

Well, surely u will find job rather soon a bit later

The only thing that I haven't seen if u know common tech stacks... Otherwise everything else is visible and we share a similar view onto things regarding quality

[mystic violet]

Hm, I wonder if I should consume this doomer propaganda, or just go on with my life? Very hard choice

[severe elbow]

I just want a real answer to this...

I want to become a software engineer (no coding experience) and I have the opportunity to get a CS degree for very cheap ($5k).

I hear two crowds of people, one saying it's going to give you a huge advantage vs others saying you shouldn't do it.

From your experience in the SE field, would you recommend getting a CS degree?

[plucky pecan]

Hello, everyone. I am finding a job now. As an experienced Web Developer, I would like to establish a connection with you.

[white relic]

we workers need a job to survive
problem is, as a business you likely get dozens/hundreds of resumes for any given position, all of those people need jobs, you can't employ them all
so that isn't really a compelling argument

[kindred rock]

Maybe istead of bit tech companies you can go to weird startups?
They don't care much about what you are, but rather what you can do and how fast...

[kindred rock]

Depends on how much free time you are gonna have.
Free time should be spent on working to get some actual experience.

And it also depends on the university.

CS degree from second world country probalby won't help you much.

[true harness]

yes, absolutely. a CS degree is the easiest way to a career in software engineering

[buoyant seal]

Send out of curiosity resume to check if u don't mind.
Potentially problem is only in correcting some small things in it.

[severe elbow]

Thanks, just curious why degrees from second world countries aren't very helpful? India for example

[plucky pecan]

As a fullstack developer, I have extensive experience with React.js and Mern stack
I also have experience with figma
I am confident about this position.
My hourl rate is $20(USD) and I am able to work for 40 hours per week.
I hope your positive reply.
I can provide my works and I also describe my experience if you want.

[kindred rock]

It really depends.
In my country of origin the education tends to be of a bad quality.

[kindred rock]

Most of the people here are devs giving advice to each other.
I am not sure if you are gonna be able to find a job here.
Although you might find some nice people and eventually get a job through them.

[stray eagle]

Sry to interrupt you guys and i know you should wait when you need help, but i need help very quik: https://discordapp.com/channels/267624335836053506/1237487589200494833

[smoky quest]

companies could get sued based on the replies given to candidates and reference checks.
So more mature companies take the stance of minimizing such risk by minimizing the feedback

[white relic]

degrees from other countries are pretty commonly accepted in the US at least.
There may be some question about the quality of your education which you can address by having projects and being able to talk intelligently about them (same for anyone, not only other countries)
the harder challenge for most people is getting (authorization to work) in the US in the first place

[kindred rock]

Well... To be fair. That 100% might not be fully representitive.
Or they just don't wanna bother with people from Poland?
They probably have enough interns in Korea?
(Unless I am ignorant and they have office in Poland).

[smoky quest]

hi and welcome!
We don't allow ads

Do you have something specific in mind?
In general, there is a lot of thought put in the "candidate experience". But no specific standard

sure and that's a very delicate system to balance.
There is a common example where introducing more renter protection means making the access to a renting a place more difficult as then more guarantees and a higher income are required to offset the additional risk.
The same applies for jobs (non compete, at will employment, etc.)

[mystic violet]

Well, I have my client brief, what do I do next as a web developer? Make some wireframes/design mockups?

[strange pumice]

Best way imo

https://teachyourselfcs.com/

[strange pumice]

They are it's just a rigorous process of going through equivalency process if you want to immigrate

[severe elbow]

I'm from Canada and would likely get a job from a Canadian company, possibly USA though

[severe elbow]

What is an equivalency process?

[strange pumice]

Canada degree are well accepted in US no need to look for equivalency

[severe elbow]

Well I wouldn't get the degree from Canada, I'm looking into BITS Pilani university in India due to lower price

[strange pumice]

Usually a country (you want to immigrate for work) requires a legal process of your degree to show that it's on par or equivalent to a IS degree.

You might also look into WES.

Ik for a fact Canada accept degree approved by Wes as their filter

[true harness]

what were you training? couldn't you leverage that experience to go to a junior role?

[kindred rock]

I checked their LinkedIn and GitHub.
I think they can easily be middle.

Surely better than me. :(

[white relic]

Really? I looked up the costs for that university and it looks comparable to a decent state public school in the US (not sure about Canada). I don't know what the financial aid situation in India is. Don't neglect travel costs (if you return to Canada twice a year for the holidays, for instance)
Studying abroad might be a great experience, not saying you shouldn't, but doing it for economic reasons seems dubious

[strange pumice]

That I'm not sure. Ik lots of people from India with degree and don't seem to have a problem working in US.

I think indian normal university to the IITs are accepted.

As long as it's a legit university that is accredited and not fake.

[severe elbow]

It's actually all online

[white relic]

this plan to get a university education in another country but not actually go there and then get a real job where you already live sounds kind of odd tbh.

If it's cheaper, that's one thing but it's something you'll need to spend a lot of time explaining to people you want to consider hiring you

[smoky quest]

sounds more complicated than it's worth

[near ocean]

Most of the time theres more prestige in attending a foreign uni

Whether thats valid or not, it'll score you points

[thorny dawn]

is their anything wrong with this or imma tripping, i'm just learning,can soembody help me

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
You are asking in the wrong place. Check out #❓｜how-to-get-help to get help

[plucky pecan]

I get a proper job on upwork.

[mystic violet]

tbh i think my business is going well so far

and its a business cus i decide it is

haters will say otherwise

[true harness]

it's a business if you have legal documents saying that it's a business

[mystic violet]

public state void came back for more it seems

[mystic violet]

the government means nothing to me

i pay my taxes, and thats that

also stop hating, hater

[true harness]

where am I hating

[mystic violet]

.

i did say

[true hatch]

Does speaking many languages 🆙 the chances into getting accepted into University?

[peak halo]

It wouldn't hurt, but it's not something you want to bank on.

[true hatch]

So universities don't care?

[peak halo]

they care more about your academic performance. things like that only help break a tie between you and a student with an equivalent academic record.

[true hatch]

Maybe I should pursue Electrical Engineering like my father

[peak halo]

a lot of universities have computer science and electrical engineering in the same school, so if you've narrowed your options down to those two, you can wait a long time to pick between the two

but you don't need to have your career figured out right now.

[dry rain]

Can i pass any argument in python ?

like say one argument was an int and one was a string, how would i call use them in an argument

like in cpp it's
int a, std::string b

How would i do this in python? Thanks

[leaden jasper]

This is off topic for the career discussion channel, you're welcome to ask in #python-discussion

[near ocean]

It'd be a business if they did work
Im a hater, yes

[fringe sphinx]

FWIW, it's a terrible idea to do work without signing a contract. Outside of payment issues, there's legal issues of: who owns the IP?

[lapis wind]

There is a pretty good talk around why contracts are something you really should have https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U

[north sand]

pls dm me i am so depressed rn

[near ocean]

not only offtopic, but also cringe, please read the channel description and rules

[hearty island]

dumb question but in a financial firm, is a managing director higher than a VP?

[near ocean]

No idea, corporate titles are bogus and silly

[hearty island]

that's what i'm saying too

[near ocean]

Pretty sure JPMC is 70% VPs

[hearty island]

ik at my last interview they dissed jpmc about that. maybe i can ask my friend at goldman about the hierarchy

bc i feel like vp > managing director? it only makes sense that way since i interviewed w the managing director first

[near ocean]

MD is the very top, isnt it?

[hearty island]

i believe so

[true harness]

could make sense either way. why not just look it up for this company

[north sand]

Why so hate just thought to have some good time with some off u

[dreamy spade]

What are the key indicators that there’s career growth in the job position and company one is in?

[celest kite]

If you see opportunities for growth?

[vital wyvern]

There's no real 'key indicators' because it's going to be based on where your strengths and weaknesses lie.
If you're constantly excelling at your job, there aren't really any internal promotion venues for you to pursue, and you're no longer learning anything new, then... I'd say your career growth is limited. Conversely, if you're in a position that you can promote forward from into a new role, or you're constantly learning new things, then that's a good opportunity to develop a well rounded career and skillset.

If you're the smartest person in the room, it's time to find a different room if you're still trying to progress your career.

[true harness]

this is a great conversation to have with your manager. ask questions like, "what should I do to be promoted?" but more tactfully

[white relic]

IME "what should I do to be promoted?" is a perfectly fine question to ask your manager verbatim

(but some tact may indeed be required in some workplace environments)

[celest kite]

So basically exactly what I said just with far more words

[digital fjord]

If you feel uncomfy suggesting that you want to be promoted, that's a sign that it's not the best environment for growth.

[vital wyvern]

I cannot describe just how happy I am working entirely remotely.

[true harness]

when isn't it?

[celest kite]

When you're the CEO?

[true harness]

whichever it is, you would find out by asking

[digital fjord]

I mean, it does still end up answering the question: is this a good environment for growth - No

[dreamy spade]

Your answer was extremely vague

[hearty island]

there isn't any real indication

[celest kite]

That doesn't make it wrong

[dreamy spade]

My perception of growth in an opportunity could be entirely wrong. That’s why you need to be more specific. Your answer also didn’t help and this a channel for asking for help and giving help. Smh

“Seeing opportunities for growth.” Literally helps no one

[celest kite]

If you think you are growing then you're probably growing

[dreamy spade]

You are wrong again.

If I think I am table, then I am probably a table

Think about how fallacious that claim is

[celest kite]

I'm not telling you what to identify or not identify as.

If you identify as a table then fine. Be a table

[gritty rivet]

Same... And it makes me very willing to stay committed to the 100% remote company I work for.

But we just had a round of layoffs and it's got me nervous enough that I might actually consider a local hybrid role elsewhere 😨

[dreamy spade]

I am still applying the same systematic logical thinking that you used here

[dreamy spade]

I am not identifying anything. I am a table. According to your logic

[analog sun]

Lets stick to #career-advice

[dreamy spade]

I appreciate your answer. This was actually insightful and had depth. Thanks

[analog sun]

In my experience the structure of the company also plays a role. If there are many specialists but a fairly flat management structure, there technically aren't many vertical promotion opportunities other than changing to management, or a few "advanced" specialist roles

[gritty rivet]

Not really, but why not include it?

[fringe sphinx]

Not weird, a lot of people don't bother.

[vapid jay]

If you're the smartest person in the room, it's time to find a different room if you're still trying to progress your career.

[fringe sphinx]

Or, perhaps its time to realize that you're probably not and listen to Bill Nye: "everyone you meet knows something you don't"

[vapid jay]

oh

ok i think its good

[rustic kiln]

I also hate it and never include it. I leave my profile hibernating 99% of the time. I think the site itself is...somewhat useful for finding roles, but I see no benefit to including it on my resume.

[fleet reef]

My condolences on your new dance partner

[vapid jay]

Are there any certifications for python?

[fringe sphinx]

There are but they don't carry much weight for SWEs, but maybe for non-SWE positions

[vapid jay]

That's okay. My company is going to pay for it

Can you suggest any names

[fringe sphinx]

I don't know any that I'd recommend

[vapid jay]

Gotcha

[fringe sphinx]

Pcap is mentioned a few times here, but no first hand knowledge

What's your degree in?

[vapid jay]

Yeah. It's at the top of Google search results too

[vapid jay]

Computer science

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe a grad class then? Have a friend working in n a masters in data science. First class was all Python. He's a finance major too.

[buoyant seal]

AWS certification is valuable / recognizable today

good for python devs of many job roles, as most of python job roles in one way or another need skills in it
Backend devs
Data engineers
ML people
DevOps engineers
everyone will benefit

[vapid jay]

Gotcha

This image is outdated by the way. AWS data analytics certification has been discontinued. They have introduced aws certified data engineer certification

@buoyant seal @fringe sphinx Is python widely used in big enterprises? I love this language but most of the job openings in big companies seem to be in java

[fringe sphinx]

https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-top-programming-languages-2023

[buoyant seal]

Wide enoughly used. if u will not wish AI/ML things, u can still be with python Backend dev and System admin/DevOps engineer and even Data engineering is made with it.
Java can do same though + Desktop and Mobile stuff, and more heavily inclined for building large coded long term maintanance stuff (except Java is i guess not may be super great for System admin/DevOps engineer purposes scripting, only for building infra tools will work for this job role, although i do all my scripting with golang... java should be simiar, okay java will work too)

[vapid jay]

Gotcha. I want to understand why is it that? What is so special about java which makes it suitable for enterprises development and long term maintainability?

[buoyant seal]

Java ecosystem is large and mature. A lot of java devs, easy and predicatable enough to find.
And most importantly Java is static type safe designed language, which helps in writing more easy scalable code that checks itself for validity before runtime in rapid amount of seconds for feedback.
Same thing helps easy structuring custom code in Java with code growth. U can fix rapidly all code mistakes from some change as your IDE will highlight (and compiler will compain) where your code is interacting not correctly with other code
Java has sufficient computing power, real parallelism, and at the same time not hard to use as lower level languages because garbage collectors still take cares of problems for you.

So.. Java is harder to learn at first, but helps writing easier at code scale growth
Python is easier to learn at first, but harder to write at code growth size scaling.

[fallow summit]

most of the positions that i see today python related they ask for a data background

and as a python BE i just don't have that

[buoyant seal]

P.S. python still has some advantages to easier coding too though. Easier to unit test as everything is mockable and no private variables/methods exist. (don't tell me about _ prefix, it is a lie for convention only)
Easier to do syntax magic. In python you can do EVERYTHING. You are fully unlimited in what u can do.
That is both its blessing and its curse (As people very often use Python allowing everything for doing some bad patterns)

Java imposes more restrictions onto developer to help coding for large code base.

[white relic]

In addition to what Darkwind said, none of which I will contradict, Java was really well marketed during a time when a lot of companies were jumping on the internet bandwagon and it came with ready answers to questions like "how do I convert this timekeeping application that runs on an aging mainframe to something that our employees can use from their now-cheap PC based workstations?" Java is big and mature in part because of when it came out. Python is older than Java but it didn't have the marketing or the features to attack that space at the time. Nowadays maybe you would not write the same kind of code in Java if you had free choice, but the momentum is huge.

[fringe sphinx]

Plus, Java's JVM was quite a feat; write once / run anywhere was very compelling in the enterprise

Consider other variables like; supply/demand, learning curve, etc... and the slope of the demand curve

[white relic]

Java+XML was the bee's knees (or so I understand from people who were in the industry at the time)

[fossil cave]

Is it hard to become a data scientist?

I'm proficient in Python

[fringe sphinx]

Sure. Everything is hard. It's easier not to be 🙂

[fossil cave]

Lol sorry I meant how hard is it

[peak halo]

there isn't much consistency in what a "data scientist" is. you might be able to find a company that is willing to give you "data scientist" as your title with whatever your current credentials are, but under the most widely-shared definition of "data scientist", you need at least a bachelors and probably also a masters in computer science, math, or stats.

[vapid jay]

Are you asking technically or commercially? The job market ain't that good right now

[fossil cave]

I thought that in programming, degrees don't matter?

[fossil cave]

Why isn't the job market good?

[peak halo]

that isn't true, but even if it were, data science is not about programming. it's about applying domain knowledge and statistics.

[fringe sphinx]

It's hard to land a SWE interview without a degree. Data science doubly so.

[wheat hatch]

These types of graph tells very little information imo. In my experience certain industries will use different languages at different scales. So a general graphic doesn't really say anything interesting.
Data science usually favor Python, R, Julia, etc which is not used nearly as much in a different industry, take telecoms that I work in. We use C, C++, Erlang, a bit of Python. Automotive is all about that MISRA C which hardly anyone else uses.

[buoyant seal]

JVM world is currently splitted somewhere between Java and Kotlin (with Scala somewhere in the mix)

[fossil cave]

Wow ok

[fringe sphinx]

This is a complicated topic: the job market goes through cycles. Whenever there's economic problems, jobs get cut or freeze, and 'weak' candidates struggle.

[white relic]

Most of the economic situation right now (for most people, but specifically in SWE) is still fallout from COVID-19

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I only cite that doc when people ask if Python is popular. Whether it's number one or five, it's in the top tier

[buoyant seal]

I do agree though it is harder writing good code in js/ts ecosystem, but people are lazy creatures and unless they are forced
majority (90%+) of people will not learn things, as there is a matter of "sufficient effort to do the job right" (The most often used law of programmers 😄 )
Java, Golang languages do not allow to slack off and their communities and language itself encourage to learn through hard and trials architecture and better coding
So.. Java, Golang, C#, Rust and etc devs will always be eventually potentially more profficient here

P.S. as potential exception we can see here that people who learned js/ts and java/golang/C#/rust at the same time, can flare in both well eventually as they reapply experience from one language to other one

[vapid jay]

The us feds had been printing cheap dollars for a decade. This gave tech companies access to cheap credit for growth and expansion. The emergency measures taken during covid expanded this access even further. However the feds are now going in opposite direction and the interest rates are being hiked up. Tech companies are feeling the heat since their access to cheap money is cut. Hence there have been mass layoffs during the past 2 years

The supply of unemployed programmers is greater than demand

[wheat hatch]

Sure, but no meaningful information can be given to that question. Popular where? In which industries?
If you said python is popular in embedded systems you would flat out lie.

[fringe sphinx]

I don't totally agree with the conclusion: engineers are getting hired, and I rarely hear from degreed US candidates who can't find jobs. The market has stabilized, it took a while for the rest of industry to absorb the surplus

[fossil cave]

Is there any way to predict when the next opportunity will come for us programmers?

[static kindle]

has anyone made money from python here

[fossil cave]

So do you guys think it's still worth learning programming due the the layoffs and ask the other factors mentioned?

[fringe sphinx]

Assuming this cycles plays out like the last ones, we're through the worst of it and as the economy is stable, growth will continue.

[white relic]

there are opportunities right now, for people with relevant skills and education.
If you wait for another year when companies are desperate for tech like they were in the early pandemic, you might be waiting a while

[fringe sphinx]

IMO, there will always be a market for competent engineers. Even if the market becomes more competitive: if you're good at it, you'll do well.

For sure: Hard to grow a business without hiring.

[fossil cave]

The thing is , I've almost fully learnt the fundamentals of py, but now I need to specialise in something in order to actually make money

What do you guys think i should specialise in?

What's in demand?

[fringe sphinx]

I'd say; don't specialize yet, but spread your wings and learn topics you know nothing about. Build a wide foundation.

[vapid jay]

This is a hot topic that is still being debated. All job reports show that those who have been laid off and have gotten back into employment. However we need to get more granular data to confirm if they have been employed back into tech sector or did they switch jobs to whatever can pay. Technically an engineer who was laid off and now works as McDonald is also counted as "absorbed" on job reports

[fringe sphinx]

For example, Kaggle.com/learn is a nice intro to data topics

[fossil cave]

Why not specialise?

[vapid jay]

How much of a runway do you have? If you already have a job then you can use this down time to learn and unskill yourself. As soon as the tech sector is back on track you can try your luck

[fringe sphinx]

Most reports seem to track job postings as a leading indicator; search "Fred indeed software engineer us"

[vapid jay]

If you need to put food immediately on table then I won't put all my eggs on landing a tech job right now

[vapid jay]

Interesting. I will have to check this out

[fringe sphinx]

Because as a new programmer, breadth is more important than depth. You have no idea what jobs will even interview you.

[vapid jay]

Also a lot of times you end up realizing that some area is more interesting than other

[fossil cave]

I'm unemployed

[fringe sphinx]

So what I'm saying is: do projects, and interview for jobs. Even tech support or operations jobs.

Get your foot in the door

[vapid jay]

Age, Educational Qualifications and Location? Previous work experience?

[vapid jay]

This. Most good companies have internal mobility opportunities if you can show that you are upto mark

[fossil cave]

I'm in the UK currently in college as I've finished school last yr

[vapid jay]

Which degree?

[fossil cave]

In the UK, u hv to go to university to do degrees

But in college you do smth called A-lvls

But in college I'm studying science and maths

I looked at careers I could get, but with programming I'm opening more doors for myself

[fringe sphinx]

Oh then definitely don't specialize at this stage, unless you have a topic you know you want: Learn some backend, some data skills? Some web projects, some networking and cloud/linux skills, etc

[fossil cave]

How long do bad job market cycle periods last?

[vapid jay]

Be warned that if you are just doing it for the money you risk getting burned out

[vapid jay]

No one can predict that. If we could then we would be buying a bunch of call and put options

[fringe sphinx]

If you're not in Uni yet, not -that/ long

[whole flare]

Preach. Working remotely is very nice.

[white relic]

I like having the option, but I dislike actually having to work remotely.
Basically only when I'm traveling and have nothing fun to do so I don't need to waste PTO on airports.

[balmy mural]

I'm fully remote and have the choice to go in to the office. Almost no one in my actual teams goes to the office, but I still enjoy going 1-2 times per week. Works really well for me

[strange pumice]

so hybrid then

[balmy mural]

I'm not required to go into the office. So I still classify it as remote. I could never go into the office if I wanted to

[vapid jay]

I prefer the hybrid approach

Working remotely is a God send when I am working on something critical which requires no distraction

But working from office is more better for networking. I have been able to make a bunch of career moves just because I was able to meet the right person at the right time in office

[valid crater]

skiders

[white relic]

I don't understand being less distracted when working at home, home is where all my distractions are

[vapid jay]

Lol. It is the opposite for me. The office has too many distraction. People constantly walking up to my desk to ask doubts. Managers walking up to have quick connects.

[peak halo]

if one is inevitably going to have periods of non-productivity during the workday, that time might be better spent doing chores at home instead of browsing the internet in their office, or something.

[vapid jay]

When I am at home I just keep my teams status as do not disturb

[white relic]

Tbf answering people's spontaneous questions is a big part of my job at the moment

[strange pumice]

same but we gotta be disciplined

[dapper bane]

did any1 of you climed out of lower class or lower middle class with coding ?

[white relic]

that's fair

[vapid jay]

You described pretty much my entire country

[true harness]

for me, the office has way less distractions. it's also helpful that most of my team was fully remote, so the office was totally empty when i was in

[vapid jay]

Damn. Lucky. We have a open floor plan and most of the team work from office so it is always a zoo in there

[dapper bane]

f work from office in the third world there aint no rules they ll make me work hours and hours

[vapid jay]

It depends on your company

[dapper bane]

I dont know man

got this internship at this startup american banglore

[vapid jay]

I know because I work from one of the third world cities where the offshoring body shops are located

[dapper bane]

They pay aint too great to the point I am still in lower class maybe when I get the job

[vapid jay]

You hit the unlucky lottery with Startup and American. Their work culture tend to be hectic

[dapper bane]

All I had is a bunch of unlucky lottries

[vapid jay]

If you earn more than 3 lakh rupees per year ($3500) than you are in top 5% of the india

You are not lower class. You are middle class

[dapper bane]

this is how much I make in 1 year as an intern $2117.64

[vapid jay]

You are an intern so it makes sense

[dapper bane]

and I am working like a senior

[vapid jay]

I sympathize with you but you should know that you are luck to even have this. Right now even IIT folks are having to settle for 6 lakh per year jobs.

[dapper bane]

u from india ?

[vapid jay]

Yeah

[dapper bane]

hows the big bad market serving u

[vapid jay]

I have a full time job so I am not affected

[dapper bane]

fullstack ?

[vapid jay]

No. Automation engineer

[dapper bane]

so u work in python

[vapid jay]

Yes and no

I use whatever language is suitable for the task. Python is one of the languages

[dapper bane]

Been trying to get into cybersecurity. Also the bossman is angry that his app is being delayed

I feel powerless

one problem goes away another pops in

[balmy mural]

This is why I still choose to go to the office from time to time. I enjoy spending lunches talking to other people and meeting some more people

[dapper bane]

I got no idea how to deal with the situation cant quit either to start business or some shit because of responsibilities

[balmy mural]

I'm in a 3rd world country that still has decent worker protection rights and I work remotely. This fully depends on your country. That said, I am looking to move to EU at some point in my career. Our company does have branches there and an internal transfer would be ideal

[dapper bane]

I would kill for that kinda opportunity but I dont really get responses from companies like that because I dont have much experience

[balmy mural]

Well, if you're spending your actual work hours on advancing skills and there are deadlines to meet, I also wouldn't be very happy if I was a bossman

[dapper bane]

Hey i just advance my skills on weekends

I was making cybersec projects

[balmy mural]

I'm not even applying right now. Depending on how talks with my executive goes next month I'll be sending a few CVs end of this year internationally just to test the waters, but I don't have high hopes just yet. My realistic goal since I started working has always been to target end of next year for emigrating

[dapper bane]

I need to get out too

[strange pumice]

thoughts on this degree program by snhu

https://www.snhu.edu/online-degrees/masters/ms-in-information-technology

Bummer 1: they don't have Data Science.
But they do have data analytics

https://www.snhu.edu/online-degrees/masters/ms-in-data-analytics

[balmy mural]

I don't have a "need to get out" mentality. In the past my goal has always been to go work internationally for a few years and then come back, although that could always change once I do move

[peak halo]

@strange pumice what is your goal?

[strange pumice]

Data Science space i want it through online cause ill be working. Im looking into ASU and SNHU degree program

Master Degree

[true harness]

have you considered gatech oms?

[strange pumice]

not yet, do they have a program on ds alone, or nah

[vapid jay]

Bro those degrees cost a bomb. Unless you are an American

[peak halo]

These are the courses for the analytics program:

DAT510 - Foundations of Data (3)
DAT515 - Enterprise Data Management (3)
DAT520 - Decision Methods and Modeling (3)
DAT530 - Presentation and Visualization of Data (3)
DAT610 - Optimization and Risk Assessment (3)
DAT640 - Predictive Analytics (3)
DAT650 - Advanced Data Analytics (3)
DAT690 - Capstone in Data Analytics (3)
QSO640 - Project Management (3)

these aren't really data science. just analysis in general.

[dapper bane]

Degress are a total waste of time, money and energy

[strange pumice]

ASU online is quite affordable,

[vapid jay]

Is this the degree where you can attend one semester offline from campus if you do well

[strange pumice]

Whats the idfference between data science and data analytics, in bullet poins. i know they overlap

[balmy mural]

I would never have had the opportunities I got without a degree

[dapper bane]

in my country it is

[vapid jay]

Hard disagree. Degrees are the bare minimum to land a job and learn the foundations. Especially in this market

[strange pumice]

Not always. I just want to open more doors by checking the box "have a degree". Even though many things ive learned is self-taught.

having a degree opened a door.

Going throught he self-taught route, or bootcamp route is good, but without a paper like a degree you will work 2x times to job hunt

[peak halo]

there's no standard for what responsibilities a "data scientist" position might have, but there's generally an expectation that you understand calculus and statistics and can implement analytic pipelines or perform modeling in Python.

[vapid jay]

You are on the right path. A lot of employers are not are hiring bootcamp folks now due to the market situation

[strange pumice]

yeah

in US ill say its doable to have a career without a degree. In most other countries, you need a degree.

AAnd if one is plannin on immigrating to another country, having a degree imo is a must

[vapid jay]

I will give an example for my company. Data analytics role in my company is just a fancy term for power bi dashboard developers

[strange pumice]

https://asuonline.asu.edu/online-degree-programs/graduate/computer-science-mcs/

@peak halo thoughts on ASU online MCS program?

[dapper bane]

In my college they didnt teach any practical development skills it like I have all the side dishes but not the main course

[vapid jay]

Even then that piece of paper will open a lot of doors. Lot of companies will instantly bin your resume if you don't have a degree

[balmy mural]

Could you expand on what you mean by practical stuff? Cause practical stuff like git, a new language, etc. Are very easy to learn imo. It's the theoretical stuff that are hard to learn where I appreciated the extra guidance of a professor I could talk to

[dapper bane]

idk man its like I am paying money only for the sake of piece of paper

[vapid jay]

@peak halo I remember you mentioning that you work with ML stuff. Is the Andrew ng course for ML good? I was thinking of starting it

[peak halo]

I haven't taken it.

[dapper bane]

Practical stuff like frontend, backend, devops, git, game dev, linux

thing that one do at the job

I dont like theory man

[vapid jay]

Building on your previous message of knowing calculas and linear algebra. Is that applicable for all folks who want to work with ML? What about those people who just apply existing ML models?

[strange pumice]

news flash, CS is all theory 😏 . Except you are doin B.Tech or B.Eng

[dapper bane]

why the f am I an organisation to teach me theory

[strange pumice]

but CS in it's core is theory

[balmy mural]

Those are all skills you pick up just building projects. I didn't need my university to teach me any of that. Data structures, algorithms, math, statistics, design patterns. Those are the stuff that's harder to put into projects and still benefit in learning you how to critically think, write better code, know about which type of solutions to apply to new problems you see

[dapper bane]

that I can learn with 500 ruppee udemy course

[vapid jay]

Knowing the theory is critical if you want to progress beyond web dev code monkey roles

[dapper bane]

.

aint no point in paying a bunch of rich people thousands of rupees or dollars just so u can learn something with a 5$ course in the third world

[balmy mural]

How do you equate a 10 hour udemy course to the iirc 160-180 hours I spent per semester per module? They don't cover nearly the same amount of content

[dapper bane]

thats what I am trying to say

[strange pumice]

https://www.wgu.edu/online-it-degrees/data-analytics-masters-program.html

it says data analytics, but i think their course structuure is more of Data Science

[dapper bane]

u can buy as many courses u want

u dont see it man we r just being played with

[balmy mural]

And none of those courses go more in depth into any topic

[dapper bane]

I would always pick up the udemy course and then the official documentation or some shit

and have u seen the level of professors in india

[balmy mural]

THere is no official documentation for differential equations

[dapper bane]

they ain gonna ask u differential equation in the interview

If it is MIT or some shit I would still do the degree

[balmy mural]

No, but as I said before - the practical stuff is what you learn on your own. The theory is why you go to uni

[dapper bane]

I have forget all the theory its like u pull an all nighter before one night before the exam pass the exam and its done

why dont u learn practically do the things practically u ll remeber hey i did this practically and implemented it

thats y i said if it is some MIT or good degree I would do it

[balmy mural]

That's a studying problem. If you spend some time studying all year instead of pulling an all nighter just for an exam, you internalize and remember these things. Sure, I'd be a little rusty on anything I haven't used for quite some time, but I'm confident that I can pick it up again very quickly because I know I understand the fundamentals, I just don't remember the specifics

[dapper bane]

whether u do the degree or not at the end of the day u r gonna be asked coding questions that are practical related to real life problem even if thats not the case then u r gonna implment in ur job

its like its the main course and theory is just side dishes

what r u gonna do without docker or git

[balmy mural]

The questions I was asked in the majority of my interviews required a decent amount of knowledge on algorithms and data structures. To understand the fundamentals of more advanced algorithms and data structures, you need a fundamental level of math knowledge

[balmy mural]

You learn the basics of git in a day, you learn the basics of docker in a week and then the more specific stuff that your job requires you to know on the job from your seniors

[dapper bane]

what bout development u learn that in a day too

[wheat hatch]

Same here, had to rely on math and physics theory quite a bit to answer quite a few job related questions. But it takes a little while for people to realize that sometimes.

[dapper bane]

the only questions I was asked by startups were development questions if u just do theory thats kinda pointless

Startups in my area do not seek theory

[balmy mural]

You'll have to expand on what you mean by development. Because that could still be implementing data structures and algorithms. Or that could be building a basic api. Or it could be some web dev. For the latter two, both are projects I'd work on in my free time

[wheat hatch]

Here's an example question I was asked: How do we increase the coverage of this cell tower?
It's a practical problem

[dapper bane]

specific frameworks relating to their environment like for eg react native

[dapper bane]

here is an example too what I was asked Can u build basic bmi api using django and the connect it to react native

[balmy mural]

After you know a language or two, learning a new language or framework is a single day endeavour to get down the basics, and then you use the documentation as you go along to find specifics you need while working

[wheat hatch]

And that's a valid question for a simple implementation job imo, but not all jobs are like that

[dapper bane]

I know but startups care about ur stack not the theory

[wheat hatch]

If all you do all day is connecting things using django then no, you prolly don't need theory.

Word of advice though: That's the kind of jobs that are actively getting automated away

[dapper bane]

that was just an example man my job is not just connecting django with frontend

in india the startups are very stack specific

they dont care about ur theory they just want you to do the work related to the stack

and it still takes time to learn development you cant just learn it in a day

i dont know about foreign ones

but 95% of them asked me question only related to the stack

and those who say hey I can do x stack in x short time . It does take time to get comfortable with that stack u cant just move from react native to flutter in just a day

[balmy mural]

Your experience seems to be the opposite of what both my Indian colleagues have told me and what a quick lookup on reddit says about interviews in India.

[dapper bane]

I told u things exactly as I saw them

[balmy mural]

Not saying your experience is wrong, but I'm saying there's definitely other people from India that don't have the same experience as you interviewing

[gritty rivet]

But will you even get the interview with no degree? I don't pretend to know about India but this is the real issue, not what people ask in interviews

[dapper bane]

Who would I choose some dude who knows open source or some dude who is learning how a microprocessor works or how differential equations work

its obvious in a split second

[true harness]

depends what you're building

[balmy mural]

Our company has a branch in India and only hires straight out of university. The amount of degrees India pumps out just because of the population size is extreme. And every single one of them are very competent developers

[true harness]

that may be true for your specific company, but I would hesitate to generalize

[wheat hatch]

Not true haha, I worked with a few indians that straight up payed for their degrees in degree mills.

Couldn't even declare a variable

[balmy mural]

Sorry, I'm saying every single one we've hired is extremely competent, not every single degree holder

[wheat hatch]

Yeah, that I can believe. I also worked with some that were really really skilled.

[balmy mural]

I'm looking through our website to see anything about India, but I can't find any. I believe we directly work with a few specific universities and we take about 20 interns per year who are in their final years and then hire from that pool of 20 when their internships expire. This is speculation though since I'm not directly involved in the actual hiring process there

Only thing I know for certain is it's about 20 interns per year that are in their final year of study

[dapper bane]

what I am trying to say is that degrees lines up some peoples pockets and on the other side get people in debt spending their hard earned money and their life in pain and for something that could have been done with less than half the resource and time something as cheap as a udemy course

I am talking bout teach specifically

why do u need to spend your life in a wheel manipulated by someone where all you had to do was connect stuff or make apis or frontends

[analog sun]

What if you want to do something else

[dapper bane]

then also the same thing applies if u look carefully re read it please

[analog sun]

I'd say a degree is more transferrable between jobs

But mostly, the degree is a way to show some type of basic qualifications. And it is the lowest friction form of that. You can get lucky and get hired without a degree, but its outside the norm

[true harness]

the advantages of school don't stop at the content you learn. they give you opportunities, networking, mentorship, and more

[dapper bane]

i think degrees in the west are quite different and are more valuable in my country it is not the case people with degrees are unemployed

[true harness]

we have unemployed people with degrees too. it's not an automatic way to get a job. it just makes it easier

[dapper bane]

over here I can even get a degreee with just a bribe

[dapper bane]

hey the numbers are way way higher because of the population

unemployment rate is way way higher here

[dapper bane]

do u actually think that with a population of 1.4 billion it ll be easy to find a job

[smoky quest]

sounds like even more reason to be more educated and skilled so you can increase your likelihood to find a job as you would stand out more

[dapper bane]

hey people with PHDs are applying to basic jobs I aint gonna waste my time doing some degree and then work at a momos shop or something. I got the internship on the basis of my skills

[smoky quest]

these are probably the people who bought their phd as you mentioned earlier, and couldn't back up their claims

also phd is meant for research, not industry

[dapper bane]

I regret doing that degree a lot wasted so much time and money if I could have done open source I would have done something big by now

and a lot of people fall into this trap here

atleast I am not in debt

[smoky quest]

I think that's misguided, but you do you.

[wheat hatch]

This guy seems dead set on connecting things to django in startups so I think we should let him do that and discover his own path.

Also industry PhD's are a thing here, they usually handle the R part of R&D.

[dapper bane]

hey whats that for ?

[balmy mural]

Quick thrown together plot without really inspecting the data much. This is the education levels for employed Indian developers based on the Stack Overflow 2023 Developer Survey (https://www.kaggle.com/datasets/stackoverflow/stack-overflow-2023-developers-survey)
It looks like for India, the vast, vast majority of people do have at least a degree

[dapper bane]

hey I know that already what I am trying to say is I dont like the idea of giving my money

[white relic]

well, at least you aren't in debt 🤷‍♂️

[dapper bane]

cheers to that

[smoky quest]

no one like giving their money.
That said, education is an investment

[balmy mural]

I did my degree and paid it off within about 6 months of working. I'm not in debt either 🤷‍♂️

[dapper bane]

but u had to take the risk

[balmy mural]

I consider not going to university and gambling on my CV passing a screening proccess when I'm competing against university students to be the bigger risk. But that's just me

[white relic]

yes, all investments involve some form of risk.

[dapper bane]

or u paid for the degree took the debt and still competed with the same people with the same degree

[balmy mural]

Yes, but I also have the degree, so I'm on equal footing to my peers

[dapper bane]

u just proved my point

[balmy mural]

Please clarify your point. Because I have no idea what it is

[dapper bane]

think

[smoky quest]

Can you expand for those who have a hard time?

[dapper bane]

u still took the risk of debt and competing with ur peers who have the same value

[balmy mural]

I'm not following.
I have a degree, I'm on equal footing as my peers and competing for a job vs I don't have a degree, I'm at a significant disadvantage of even getting to an interview than my peers

[dapper bane]

what I am trying to say is you paid them the money and took the risk

they took your money

that is my problem there

[balmy mural]

A basic school education also took my money and taught me valuable skills to move myself forward in life

[dapper bane]

are you really going to debate that getting into debt is a good thing

did ur basic education got u into debt or did it ?

even if u paid it that doesnt mean its good

[balmy mural]

My basic educaation did not cause me to go into debt. My tertiary education did not cause me to go into debt since I grew up quite privileged. However, my country also provides free tertiary education to students who live in a household below certain levels of income, so they also didn't have to go into debt to get their degrees

[smoky quest]

paying for being more skilled and educated is an investment. No problem with that

[dapper bane]

i dont like that fing conecpt man

[balmy mural]

If your argument is on whether university should be free/affordable, I 100% agree with you. However, if your argument is if university is worth paying for even if it's not very affordable, I consider it an investment and I'll reap the rewards in the future

[smoky quest]

I understand that. I can bet your employer would also love to not pay you for your services

[dapper bane]

then u agree with me

[balmy mural]

If that's what your argument is about, on whether uni should be free or not, I don't believe it's very relevant to career discussion anymore

[signal gorge]

Recommendations for aplying to jobs with no previous experience?

[smoky quest]

What is your context and background? Are you a student?

[signal gorge]

I am a student right now, studying a degree called "Networks and IT devices" in Spanish, I don't know the exact translation

[smoky quest]

Main things are:

• As a student, you aren't expected to have experience since you are starting out. It's a tautology
• You can increase your profile through projects, internships and other experiences like contributing to an OSS project

[dapper bane]

Hey do you want to development or go into some networking stuff ?

The dude is saying right build some projects

[signal gorge]

Im building some projects at the moment, aside from that is there anything that will bump me compared to other students?

Hey do you want to development or go into some networking stuff ?
Either of them would be nice

[dapper bane]

what r u interested in ?

[wheat hatch]

Projects are good, like recursive said. I would recommend specializing them towards any specific industry you want to enter. What industry do you want to work in?

[dapper bane]

I would go for development more jobs

[signal gorge]

Automation and data scraping

[smoky quest]

It's easier to imagine this scenario:

• Imagine that you and all your classmates apply to the same job. What can you do to put you ahead of them?

In general that means broader or deeper projects which demonstrate better skills

[balmy mural]

Make sure your projects are demonstrating specific skills you want to show off and arent just generic todo applications, although something like a basic todo app is also fine if it's some of the first projects you're doing

[wheat hatch]

Gotcha, do you have any projects right now where you demonstrate skills that might be of interest in such jobs?

[signal gorge]

My current biggest project is https://github.com/akex06/valapi.py, but im building a bigger project, https://github.com/akex06/devon a minecraft server written in python, I don't really know if any of these sound good for an employer

[wheat hatch]

This is a difficult question to answer. It depends a little bit on what skills they seek in any position that you apply for. My best advice to you at this time is to look around at a few job ads and see what skills they typically ask for. If none of your current projects matches those skills, consider creating a new project with the purpose of being something you can mention during any interview.

[signal gorge]

Most of them ask for data scraping, automation and APIs (not mentioning AI because I don't like it so not aplying)

and which projects I could do about data scraping, the juicy ones are most likely illegal

[dapper bane]

I once made a scrapper that worked with anonsurf

Cool stuff

[signal gorge]

never heard of it before

[wheat hatch]

Scraping is a bit of a gray area, yes. Some websites have dedicated pages for scraping, but yeah I'd be careful with it. Automation is different though, you can probably do a lot of cool stuff there.

[signal gorge]

Yeah, im aware there are websites dedicated for scraping, but being real an employer will see a script listing 100 books and won't be impressed by it

[dapper bane]

Hey bro don't be doing something illegal

[signal gorge]

that's what im saying

illegal stuff won't be cool but neither bad scraping projects

[dapper bane]

I made it with anonsurf to avoid prevention of being blocked but never really used it

[wheat hatch]

So focus on something that's easier to make a good project with

[signal gorge]

automation, now I gotta search for a good project

[dapper bane]

I also made a RAT and a botnet with python for my cyber sec portfolio and stuff

But u don't have to do that stuff

[signal gorge]

any ideas for an automation project?

I was thinking of aplying to a deskhelp job where I need to do repetitive tasks and automate them with python

[dapper bane]

Why don't u make something for them data entry job image to text automate that stuff

Or some network automation

[signal gorge]

would be cool to implement some network services as DNS DHCP and HTTP in python

[wheat hatch]

Have you seen this old blog post?
https://www.jitbit.com/alexblog/249-now-thats-what-i-call-a-hacker/

Maybe some inspiration 😄

[signal gorge]

nope, im going to read it

oh wow DOT looks nice

[wheat hatch]

fuckingcoffee.sh always cracks me up haha

[signal gorge]

LMAO

that one is increible haha

im sharing this

[pastel thunder]

So far only getting very few interview, that you recruiter reach out to me

Out to get more interviews?

[pine sleet]

if you're having trouble getting interviews, it's most likely an issue with your resume. feel free to post an anonymized version here for review

[pastel thunder]

have done that here many time, its not that
another thing is I am trying to target well known companies.

Considering this, I would appreciate your ideas

[pine sleet]

if your resume was good, then you'd be getting a lot of callbacks

even from large companies

i'm not saying it's bad, but it could perhaps use some more work

[pastel thunder]

Few recruiter show interests initially but then ghost

[pastel thunder]

ok one sec, i will share

[pine sleet]

that is way too dense

[pine sleet]

just by opening it i have no idea where to focus my eyes

but it looks like you have a fair bit of content to use, which is good

[pastel thunder]

Yeah,
I have tried to eleminate a lot of stuff

[dreamy spade]

It feels amazing after getting the job because you don’t have to worry about tweaking resumes and improving in interviews ever again

[pine sleet]

one should always be improving and updating their resume

[pastel thunder]

I have a Job
want a nice job now

[pastel thunder]

any suggestion on what to do? as everything will increase length and nothing seems redundant

[true harness]

if you want to stay at the same job for the rest of your career 🤔. some people may want that, but the average tenure in swe is like 2 years

[pastel thunder]

to meet deadline... like this?
ramp up progress?

saved budget of client, for hiring us for lesser time, lmao

i removed months to de-clutter it

ok, anything else, to make recruiter focus on specific things?

[strange pumice]

BTech vs BSc in CS whats the diff

[whole flare]

nice publications 👍

[pastel thunder]

BSc 3year

[strange pumice]

in US it's a 4 year degree 😏

[pastel thunder]

thanks illuminate illuminatiFish

course work is there cuz I dont have core CS degree

former name is well known thats why i put it there

[whole flare]

illuminate 😩

[pastel thunder]

high school

ok
can I just write bachelors?

[strange pumice]

Quantify your resume
Use metrics, for the Resume

[pastel thunder]

I think education can be trimmed

[pastel thunder]

will try to include, that if possible

Now overall, i have a very low rate of hearing back
But I also have been reached out by recruiters from top companies(very few)

overall, how to increase interview calls when I apply?

dont wanna go in backend, thats why actually
found it pretty boring

[vapid jay]

How hard is it to find a job as a self taught python developer?

Almost every job posting I see requires some sort of degree

[pastel thunder]

possible,
can add our own AI product: I dont know the architecture though, Hard question can be asked from this
can add LLM prompting: seems to easy

ok cool

thanks for the suggestions

[strange pumice]

im still a noob, but i always remember that your resume is a 1 paper Ad in the midst a pool of resume. So its always good to make it stand--out among many

then leave everything to luck, pray and hope for the best. Cause you can apply for a job have a killer resume, but someone else got the job, due to his connections and networking.

[near ocean]

are you sure about that?

[brisk cargo]

startups are way more susceptible to that

[near ocean]

the one i worked at had the founder's wife listed as an "exec"
never seen her

paid her salary too

[buoyant seal]

depends on startup 😄
connections can be good to get devs with higher probably of better hard and soft skills. In fact it is undustry standard... forgot the name, ah, yes, referals.
well, and nepotism is always possible too in microstartups. Happens all the time in my origin country at least in gov sponsored stuff
For surviving good startup should not be having nepotism though, but there is plenty of not efficient management. People can be having as purpose actually just processing gov grants instead of working (So... gov sponsored startups are somewhat often evil)

[near ocean]

most startups cant afford to hire the best for the job

so your wife's nerdy cousin

90% of startups dont make it past 2 years

[buoyant seal]

Some startups do not even have surviving as a goal 😄 just processing government(or other sponsored) grant.

[snow rapids]

What ppl can do with your Resume / CV? Sometimes on LinkedIn it seems people only want to get your CV. Whats their purpose. Can they sell it on dark web or something? 😅

[buoyant seal]

plenty of companies that have recruiting as their business
they add you to their database of candidates 😄 Finding good match for some cases is a very rewarding thing equal sometimes up to 10-20 thousands of euros (well or at least i guess a thousand of euros can be easier received i guess more often)
Finding good devs is a heavy costy thing to do in terms of used time and salaries.

Extremely lazy ones force u to fill very cucumbersome and awkward forms for that in addition

Optionally there are a lot of outsourcing/outstaffing companies that resell you to other companies by contracts

[smoky quest]

that hasn't necessarily be true in my experience, especially given that anyone can start their own company. There is a whole category of people who like to play startup.
However the most successful ones I have seen didn't have a lot of nepotism.

And sometimes, the line between nepotism and your network can be rather thin

[true hatch]

I swear to god biology class FUCKING SUCKS

[pine sleet]

this is not on topic for this channel

[true hatch]

school is related to career

[pine sleet]

whining about a class isn't

[radiant adder]

Find partner
you can make money with me cuz you are good at English
I'm a senior web developer
I need your help with English
required: 1. Native English Speaker
2. more than 23 years old
3. United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico, Argentina, Great Britain(citizen)
If you meet these requirements, you can collaborat ce with me and we can also earn money together.

[smoky quest]

Hi,
We don't allow ads.
Thanks,
Recursive Error

[true hatch]

Which school subjects should I focus on the most?

[harsh river]

the ones related to your dream carreer

[true hatch]

Then CS

[harsh river]

what school level are you currently in?

[true hatch]

7th grade (middle school)

[harsh river]

then just chill thru middle school, once you get to high school, focus on math and the sciences, if your high school has extracurricular classes that you can take that are related to CS, take them, if not, just focus on getting a good grade and being well rounded

[true hatch]

Do i need to care about biology? Is it imprtant for CS?

[harsh river]

those sort of courses are required for you to graduate high school, it'll help you maintain good grades. but no it's not directly required for CS unless you want to go into a field that combines both

[true hatch]

I don't want to combine them, Bio is the worst, my teacher is an asshole.

I do like Finance tho, not one of my classes that I have

[harsh river]

then math will be important 🙂

[true hatch]

So Math, Physics and Coding are priority?

[coarse crag]

Do you think the salaries for amazon L5 and L6 in levels.fyi are accurate?

[pine sleet]

@gaunt hawk we don't allow advertising in this server, I've deleted your message

[leaden talon]

Are middle school people even allowed on discord? What’s ur age buddy?

[long osprey]

how to be the GOAT

[smoky quest]

do you have a concrete example in mind?

[lost roost]

Hiiii

[safe granite]

Guys can we share projet files here in discord ?

[brave swallow]

you can share the github link instead of files

need some not so harsh criticism on my decisions. Im a fresh graduate thats aiming to have a WFH web dev or data analyst job, for all the jobs i've applied only a very few replied to me and those are onsite jobs. It's to be expected since i have no work experience (ojt was campus based since it was at time of pandemic) so ojt didn't really count. And i know that WFH setup are usually for employees with at least 1 year work experience so normally i should go 1 year onsite and apply remote work after. But lets say for a specific reason im going to push a WFH job even without experience so i expanded my application and tried applying for internship job even though im already a college grad, and i received a reply from a paid internship job, since its internship i shouldn't be expecting much with the pay right, my primary goal is to get the experience on the ojt so i can have an actual work experience on my portfolio not just self studies projects. after three months OJT contract this should increase my chance of getting a WFH setup?

[buoyant seal]

as harsh criticism, as WFH u are competing with all the flood of boot camp educated people in addition.
U have very strong advantages of getting job on site first

Also, three months is basically nothing, for complex jobs, people take 3 months just to get used to them.
Depends on scale.
In three months a minor project can be made, if it is micro-micro startup.
But for real jobs... 3months, or even 9 months is only of you getting used to it, as well as aligning with other colleagues to mentally opened level

[buoyant seal]

three months experience will be treated only as some kind of internship basically. As good advantage towards getting more reliably junior level jobs, but not enough for working from home. WFH requires passing stage of when u worked very dependently to having shown hard and soft skills of working independently
you becoming Middle (at least beginner) level dev in ranks/qualifications essentially
It takes from 1 to 3 years in average for graduates (if some people too much spreaded themselves or shifted to management work and etc, they could be remaining juniors for more years in terms of qualifications for dev related positions)

[brave swallow]

Right as expected

Well after the 3 months if it doesn't help me in applying remote work entry level ill go for the onsite for maybe a year or year and half

If it doesn't help me in getting remote job for fresh grad/entry level it would at least significantly boost my application for onsite compared to no ojt experience at all right?

So ill go with this 3 for now

[buoyant seal]

Sounds like a more real plan.
If u will also read books like this
https://www.amazon.com/Code-Complete-Practical-Handbook-Construction/dp/0735619670

and get hang of unit testing
https://www.amazon.com/Test-Driven-Development-Kent-Beck/dp/0321146530
https://www.amazon.com/Unit-Testing-Principles-Practices-Patterns/dp/1617296279

Ensuring to practice it at work at every opportunity (and preferably pet projects)
Getting used to it to your reflex and learning how to use your IDE properly within realm of developing from within tests
Getting used to code smells and improving it

U have good chances to get good level within year and half with some self studying

Like... when u say you had internships is not really important.
Important also having acquired necessary skills

P.S. this is valid stuff at least for software engineering related positions. (especially backend dev related positions)
For mentioned by you data scientist stuff, career ladder can be different

[brave swallow]

Almost the same answer with my brother who's a data analyst

Its good that i asked here thanks for that

[brave swallow]

im hoping for the unrealistic possibility that after the internship the company would absorb me and give me a competitive salary :V

[brave swallow]

yes thats why negotiation is also a skill

just wanna have a job free life with unlimited money and more cats ;-;

[polar totem]

How to gather console information of a site using python?

[kindred oyster]

#career-advice

Discussion of Python and** the world of work**

ask in #python-discussion or #1035199133436354600

[polar totem]

Oh my bad sry

[true harness]

not too unrealistic. many internships are designed as a really long interview, to help the company decide if they want you full time

[brave swallow]

Well ill try my absolute best to ace that

Hope i get an offer ;-;

[white relic]

internships for non-students are quite unusual, at least in the US. be careful you don't sign on to a scam

another possibility is that they just didn't review your résumé carefully

[true harness]

i have seen some internships with something like "in college or graduated 6 months ago"

[kindred oyster]

<@&831776746206265384> emoji reaction abuse ?

[void raven]

!cban 1044304986659635281 racism.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @safe nymph permanently.

[true harness]

eh? oh

[light citrus]

Off topic but whats the cban given by cheeki to public static?

[white relic]

psv wasn't the target of the ban, there was another person.

their participation in this channel was deleted (that's what cban does) so you can't see it anymore.

[light citrus]

But was the person banned too?

Will degrees matter in the future?

Or will it be entirely dependent on skill considering there are so many ways to learn due to the internet

But you can show your skills

Yeah but the thing is if I chose degree right now (I am 16 and from India) I will have to study atleast 6-7 hours a day for next 2 years abt Physics and Chemistry and whatnot for a Cs Degree and then learn stuff in 4 years in college which I can learn myself in like 2-3 years

[white relic]

the easiest way to show prospective employers that you have been developing skills and depth of understanding in a particular area is to have a degree in that field.
the internet hasn't really changed that and there isn't much reason to believe it will in the near future.
this is true of most fields, not just CS.

[light citrus]

So its 3-4 extra years for me if I go for a degree too

[white relic]

"extra"

[gritty rivet]

I've seen no evidence that degrees are starting to matter less for career outcomes. To the contrary, the average income gap by educational attainment is increasing.

The Internet has only made it easier to complain publicly about "degrees are useless" and all of that noise. The data isn't there.

[white relic]

what are you doing with those "extra" years if you don't get a degree?
some of them will be spent job hunting, certainly

statistically, some of them will be spent in jobs that don't use a degree or pay less because you don't have a degree

[light citrus]

I mean what I will learning right now for 2 years doesnt have anything to do with the carerr I want to go with so yeah wasting time on science wont make me any better after 2 years other than the experience I gain passively about life as I age

[fringe sphinx]

It is exceptionally hard to land a SWE interview without a degree. And, it takes a lot of time to make up for it.

[light citrus]

Basically I can get a degree tho it will not be as good as the other one(syllabus and skills they teach are same but institute is not as reputed)

Its been like a month since my school year started and I am learning abt how to calculate momentum of a electron is quanyum mechanics in all 3 axis and azimuthul's quantum numbers or something

[fringe sphinx]

School Reputation importance is exaggerated (unless you go to a top 5, everything else nobody will care about after your first job)

[light citrus]

That maybe true for US but I am not that sure for my country (India)

[fringe sphinx]

If you only have one choice, then what choice is there

[light citrus]

I just gave an example........
You will have to memorize stuff like all the different exceptions in Inorganic Chemistry or how much degree between bonds of carbon in organic chemistry

[light citrus]

I have 2...

[white relic]

In the US, what school you got your degree from is much less important than the fact you have one.
In India, I have heard that things are different and the school matters much more.

[light citrus]

And the worst thing is all that matters upon a single exam JEE that doesnt even test your coding or aptitude but just random a$$ Physics and Chem knowledge which will be useless as f like as soon as you start your job

[white relic]

But it sounded like you started out saying you might as well not get one at all, which makes no sense

[light citrus]

Thats why I was ranting abt chem and phy but not maths

[white relic]

maybe there's more to being a competent engineer than just having a laser focus on your one area of knowledge and disparaging everything else.

[light citrus]

I can get a goofy ahh useless degree but its basically as good as no degree at all anyways

[fringe sphinx]

What's your other choice then?

[white relic]

sounds like you should be working hard to get the non-useless degree

[light citrus]

That maybe true to some extent but JEE advanced is like the second hardest exam in the entire world taxing me for on average 6 hours a day for the next 2 years

[dark arrow]

your best way forward is to study for jee so you get CS at a good institute

[light citrus]

Are you from India?

[dark arrow]

yes

[light citrus]

Can I talk in dms?
Slowmode is annoying ngl

[dark arrow]

i agree that its fucked up your CS knowledge is not tested for getting CS but that doesnt change the fact that jee is still the path of least resistance for getting in

[dark arrow]

id rather not

[light citrus]

Is there a general channel?

Although it doesnt seem right talking abt career there

[dark arrow]

this channel is fine just write everything you want to say in a single message

[light citrus]

Can I ask you something?
Are you in college right now? Or working? @dark arrow

[dark arrow]

college

[light citrus]

Are you getting a btech cse degree?

[dark arrow]

ee

[light citrus]

If you dont mind me asking are you like in IIT or NIT or something?
Not trying to be rude just asking

[dark arrow]

i ranked 7k in advanced but I didn't take IIT/NIT

you don't necessarily even need to take CS for a SWE job

i think like 5 people were placed in Amazon from my department last year

[light citrus]

Sigma ngl
7k is like above 90 percentile in adv easily

[light citrus]

Like BCA+MCA or BSC compsci+MCA degree

[regal axle]

It is harder now than it was a few years ago. But SWE would take anyone with an aptitude for it. As in, no degree of any kind required. That is still the case for some companies. But the selection pool is so large that they don’t really even have that opportunity (as a general statement)

[dark arrow]

depending on the university and the company, a btech cse and a btech ee can both be allowed to sit for placements

SWE is also far from being the only field where you work with computers

anecdotally, my research projects are in signal processing where i write code to analyse electrical signals

my point is you're like, just out of 10th grade which is imo too early to specialise in just software development

[light citrus]

Yeah but the thing is studying PCM subjects literally gives me anxiety(unless its easy like stoichemistry which I did in my head without even the formulas the second I learnt it) while learning programming, solving puzzles and whatnot is the stuff that makes me happy

[dark arrow]

Not much difference between 10 and 12th grade
disagree, 11th and 12th cover a shit ton of fundamental stuff

[lapis wind]

UK SWE pay from UK companies is actually depressing tbh

I don't even bother applying to UK company jobs anymore because of it

[dark arrow]

this is valid, but unfortunately under the current system you do just kinda have to suck it up and grind pcm for jee
i'm not saying it's the only route to getting a software job but it is the most direct way forward

it's not like you have to give up on programming entirely during these 2 years

[near ocean]

Where do you apply to then? Why would foreign countries pay more

[lapis wind]

Mostly US based companies with remote working

There is a huge difference in pay between the two most of the time

[light citrus]

Tbh I know lowering my head down and grinding for 2 years is the safest route
But my some cousin sister did Bsc comp sci and BCA and is know in Amazon earning betwern 60-65lpa at the age of 31 (tbh she was the only reason I even thought abt the non Btech path)

[dark arrow]

on average a btech is valued more

[cinder fossil]

most annoying thing I've seen is that they will always lowball UK employees

I have a friend whose role goes for ~$200k in the US but she only got $100k here since the US company cited local salaries as the reason -_-

they tried to offer 50 initially too lol

[lapis wind]

Yeah those can still be pretty bad, although I think it depends a bit on the company to whether they take the mic or not

however, that still ends up being way more than Senior in most UK companies, which is depressing

🫠

[cinder fossil]

heh yeah I recently saw a role going in Newcastle for a C suite position that pays less than an average US junior in some states

iirc they were offering £80k and asked for minimum 10YoE. literally a CISO role of a mid sized company

[lapis wind]

Oh yeah I am not saying Indeed or that necessarily are accurate, but I do recognise a few of these companies here that I know actually do offer that pay range

also goes the other way tbh, some which advertise 80-100k end up being lower

[cinder fossil]

I've seen people use it as a jumping ground to enter the US job market

only thing that sucks is how insanely competitive it is

I'm probably just going to be in London for the foreseeable future. won't stop me from complaining though :x

tell me about it. first time I lived and worked there was a massive culture shock, even while trying to keep costs low I still spent something like 4/5x more a month than I did in my previous location in the north

[dapper bane]

Hey deep down I have fear that I might lose my internship

When will I lose this fear.

[true harness]

you can ask your manager how you're doing

[lapis wind]

I went back upto my parents recently in the midlands and price difference for shopping vs quality of products is so much better, especially in the more rural areas

[craggy crag]

real

.

[dapper bane]

I built a total of 15 - 16 screens in my first week

found critical bug related to user information

that could have made it a playground for hekers

but the bossman doesnt appreciates me

the bugs could have exposed a lot of users

[signal gorge]

I just got called from an it helpdesk technician job

• fixing computers and installing network devices

[dapper bane]

I am a man of god

a multiculturalist

[signal gorge]

monday to wednesday remote and thursday and friday onsite

[dapper bane]

and I dont like this 1 bit

[signal gorge]

I just want the money to get a bike

[dapper bane]

I want the money to get a gpu

[dapper bane]

hey why I am getting dissed

I guess people here dont like fat people

I aint even fat I am just big boned and still an athlete

[signal gorge]

fair enough

[leaden jasper]

How is being based in the UK in opposition to having a sponsorship?

You can be physically in the UK and still require a job to sponsor you to stay in the UK.

It's definitely a compound question, but I don't think the two are in direct opposition

[dark fiber]

hows this contradictory?

[leaden jasper]

From what I understand it's per business. If you're switching jobs or transitioning from some sort of student visa to a sponsorship, then the new employer needs to know so they can file the paperwork and maintain the sponsorship

It's asking if you need a sponsorship and if you are currently in the UK.

If you don't need a sponsorship you answer no. If you're not based in the UK you answer no.

It's a bit weird what they're trying to filter down to, but that's what it's asking

[true harness]

i think the other way is more annoying. what if i'm in the UK and don't need sponsorship

[leaden jasper]

Yeah, I'm not sure what they're trying to filter and compound questions aren't great

[gritty rivet]

Then you answer No.

[leaden jasper]

It's not half a lie, it's asking if you fulfill two conditions. If you don't fulfill both, you answer no

[gritty rivet]

No it's not. if a and b still evaluates to False if one is true.

Nothing on a normal application form resembles a conversation

[dapper bane]

Are these skills noob why am I not getting selected ?

for international opportunities ? these are from my resume

In local opportunites I am able to get selected

this is the live project in my resume https://needjob-coder.itch.io/mazegameconcept

everywhere I have show my live projects I have been given very good remarks

did u see the live link ?

[atomic nova]

how to know if you are good at coding

[dapper bane]

These are not projects I made to show to the interviewer these are the projects I wanted to make

track u ? its just an itch.io game hosted

oh I dont think that is a big issue is it ?

[atomic nova]

☝️ 🤓

[dapper bane]

idk man I did what I could

what if its because the ATS score of my resume is low or something ?

u made 70 apps

I just picked it from canva

[atomic nova]

shit needs to look like you wrote it with typewriter

[vapid jay]

I dont think this is a good cv to have, it looks like an Essay

[true harness]

the skills section on its own doesn't mean much. the rest of the resume will be more impactful

[atomic nova]

yeah thats what most pro rec

[balmy mural]

I prefer Jake's resume, equally simple, but looks just a tiny bit nicer. Also has Education at the top vs bottom, which is likely the most relevant thing majority of people entering the workforce have
https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs

[vapid jay]

That simple design I think will be ignored, you need something more eye catching and easy to read

You can have both

[balmy mural]

I think it's quite easy to make lines between stuff a bit shorter and make the indentation level smaller if you really need to cram as much as possible into the resume. But then I feel it starts to get too cluttered

[atomic nova]

bruh design on resume

[vapid jay]

Did you have success with it?

[balmy mural]

It's a template, you can write it out as BS in Computer Science
Jake's resume is what I've seen consistently suggested to use by people in this channel. Also the one I used when I was job hunting

[vapid jay]

I have a question, how much does having a degree effects getting hired? I’m self learning and planing to get as much personal projects as possible before applying to jobs

[gritty rivet]

If you're not applying for a front end role, overly fancy visual layouts stand out in a bad way, not a good way.

That's my own opinion as someone who has been involved in hiring, but also the general advice I've seen. https://www.topresume.com/career-advice/why-a-simple-resume-is-a-successful-resume

[balmy mural]

Regardless, I don't think either is bad. Only thing is that I think education probably should go higher than the bottom when entering the workforce vs going at the bottom if you have more relevant work experience

[gritty rivet]

It matters a lot. There are some companies that don't care so much but in many cases your resume will go straight to the trash

[vapid jay]

Even if somebody did like a boot camp and has experience?

[dapper bane]

ok but hows my live link projekt #career-advice message

[gritty rivet]

Experience does matter a lot too.

But everyone I know who managed to make it into the industry without a degree a) did it when the market was way better than now and b) quickly realized they should get a degree and at least attempted to do so

[true harness]

in general, you shouldn't expect anyone to click a link on the first pass through your resume

[gritty rivet]

Most successful bootcamp grads have degrees in other fields

[vapid jay]

Degrees in other areas still considered?

[balmy mural]

What relevant skills does the project demonstrate towards the roles you are applying for?

[vapid jay]

I know I get to a high level learning by myself but it’s a matter of will the company recognize my skills even though I don’t have a degree

[dapper bane]

It clearly shows I can code complex stuff

[gritty rivet]

Substantially better than none, but also not comparable to a CS degree

[dapper bane]

My other project is there too but I don't wanna reveal that

[gritty rivet]

Someone may give you a chance.

So bottom line is that you should get a degree if you possibly can, but don't give up if you can't

If you're in the US and don't think a degree is practical, look into WGU

[balmy mural]

If I'm honest, it looks like a weekend game jam type of project. Not something that demonstrates that you can code complex stuff

[dapper bane]

But I had such good reviews from interviewers

Just because it looks simple doesn't mean it is

[vapid jay]

Im in Germany which is alot more old school in terms of hiring than the Us 😅

[balmy mural]

I don't have access to the source code and you asked for some feedback. I gave you my honest feedback

[dapper bane]

I guess it is what it is

[gritty rivet]

Getting hired internationally is extremely difficult without a lot of formal education, experience and connections

[dapper bane]

I ain't got a lot of education

And I am self taught

[gritty rivet]

I see. You should seek out developers in Germany without degrees on LinkedIn, they will have the most relevant advice

If you can't find any, that also tells you something

[dapper bane]

I talked to a German dude he had certs that costed 10x 20x my salary

Them cyerbsec certs are really valuable

Hey them certs are powerful too

Some will prefer them too

[gritty rivet]

Depends a lot on the role, cybersec roles are very different in that way than most developer roles

[dapper bane]

Is there any scholarship program or something to get them certs

[vapid jay]

Definitely, also in germany there’s strong regulations about hiring people from outside the EU, which makes the demand high

[balmy mural]

I have a friend working in cybersec. His company does pay for him to go and do some specific certs. So I do believe some certs in that domain carries some weight

[vapid jay]

Also there’s stronger regulation in Cybersecurity

[drifting mountain]

okay thats interesting. cybersecurity is important tho so probably a good thing theyre doing more about it.

[gritty rivet]

I have been reimbursed for every cert I've done except the first one. It's pretty standard for employers to pay

[drifting mountain]

thats cool, getting reimbursed by your employer is a great way to handle cert costs. always good to check if they offer that benefit.

[dapper bane]

Man certs are written in every cybersec job post

[vapid jay]

The economy in the germany is dependent on these large companies that’s why the government has set regulations

[dapper bane]

Yeah man and they cost a lot

A LOT

[vapid jay]

I think cybersecurity certificates are more valuable than CS Bachelors degree cuz they don’t teach in depth cybersecurity just the basics

[dapper bane]

floor slipped underneath my feet when I read the price

[gritty rivet]

Can't really compare certs and degrees, they're just different things, but neither is about what you actually learn. Both are just filters used to sort through massive stacks of resumes

Correct... Many require X years of experience and all kinds of things, not just some simple multiple choice test

[balmy mural]

Keep in mind that most certs in cybersec isn't something you can study for a month for. Something like OSCP requires about 6 months of intense studying and the exam is 24 hours of investigating and hacking something and then you have 24 hours to write up a comprehensive report about the security flaws and submit it. Degrees are also required for cybersec roles

[gritty rivet]

Not sure what that has to do with what I said.

To be clear, what you know is very important, but that's independent of what degrees and certs are for

I don't think we disagree in substance but I was responding to the common feeling that one can often learn practical skills more efficiently through other means than formal schooling. To at least some extent that is true, but missing the point.

But more to your point, if degrees didn't teach actual knowledge of value, employers wouldn't value them

[brave mauve]

Hey how are you

[true hatch]

im 13, no cap

[vapid jay]

anyone a python coder if so dm me i will pay you 30 dollars per work

[deft herald]

!rule paid

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[deft herald]

Also damn, that's like $0.75/hour!

[slate sapphire]

hey, i’m going to college for software development in august and my class will use C++ and Java, is there any point of me continuing to learn python or should i just focus on those two?

[loud aurora]

Guys, I have a new bot, I'm collecting reviews. Can anyone try it on an empty server and rate it?

[deft herald]

No

[deft herald]

Well the only way it would hurt you is if it impacts your grades. Otherwise go for it

[true harness]

any programming will help, but of course the more familiar you are with the course languages, the easier it will be

[lapis wind]

not this again

[true harness]

is this not a reasonable plan? many people work while getting a degree

[lapis wind]

We've already had this convo yesterday

And gone down the same track of yada yada freelance this freelance that yada yada
and then also gone down the "Idc what the hates say" stuff yada yada

We are just repeating this conversation again

Just do what ever you feel like, going off the last convo I don't think you'll actually listen to anything anyone else has to say or just continue going around in circles

[true harness]

they are talking about getting a degree though

[north rune]

I heavily disagree I learned A LOT when I studied for my BSCP

[balmy spade]

If you didn't end up completing the cert/degree, wouldn't you still have what you learned?

[harsh river]

Then my order is wrong then? I've been doing freelance before college 🙂

Did one semester of college and then I got bored

[true hatch]

What job can I get at 14, I can get a job a this age where i live. But there's a 17 hour week max

[fringe sphinx]

Any job that'll hire you.

[stuck prawn]

don't think that matters, i've been freelancing before and while in college

[true hatch]

like which jobs are most likely to hire a 14 year old

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, this probably isn't the right discord to ask. For python jobs? I don't think there are any.

[summer roost]

babysitting? lawn mowing? working at a family business? maybe stocking shelves?

[true hatch]

Im allowed to work at 14 in a company, max 17 hours per week (stocking shelves is nice idea)

Can i work at Fast Food?

[wintry ocean]

That depends on your local laws.

[true hatch]

I can work at 14, legally

[fringe sphinx]

I'm really unsure on what you're asking us. If you can work at a company and work legally, what's your question?

[true hatch]

how to apply, where am i most probably going to be accepted

[wintry ocean]

no idea man - not a lot of places hire 14 year olds

[fringe sphinx]

Go visit the store you want to work and ask them how to apply. Every store is different.

[true hatch]

I want a job bc im addicted to money

[wintry ocean]

You might go to a grocery store and apply - end up gathering carts or bagging groceries or cleaning

[fringe sphinx]

Then after school, go visit some stores and apply for jobs. Won't get a job talking to us 🙂

[true hatch]

bagging groceries would be cool

[smoky sparrow]

So i just wrapped up my first year of college and we looked a load of stuff from the basic syntax to some sorting (selection,bubble,quick,merge ) and searching (linear,binary) algorithms, now i currently have 2 months off for summer break and iam not really sure how i should go about spending it in a way thats productive,
Data structres
computer network
Unstructured data no sql
Data Visualisation and buisness intellegence
Statistical Modelling
Machine Learning Methods and Algorithms
Physics

heres my tentive curriculum for the next semester and well a lot of it is looking really scary

[fringe sphinx]

Is the curriculum mostly Python based? (assuming so)

[smoky sparrow]

yup

[fringe sphinx]

For data/data vis/stats model/ml, you're going to likely need to know some numpy/sklearn/matplotlib. kaggle.com/learn has some good intros to this stuff.

Data structures: there's a lot of resources, have you had an intro to complexity analysis (big O?)

[smoky sparrow]

yah we looked at the time and space complexities of all the algorithms we studied and learned how to figure our time complexities of some simpler programs

time &space

[fringe sphinx]

For unstructured data, if you like, maybe start with getting comfortable with JSON, then move on to some text parsing or web scraping

Personally, I wouldn't stress it... maybe get comfortable with numpy/pandas/matplotlib as a foundation. The APIs take a bit of getting used to

[smoky sparrow]

we looked at numpy pandas and a couple other libraries this sem, we also built some models using linear regression, logistic regression and the naive bayes classifier (even tho i got no idea what the last one is yet lol)

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, then tbh, sounds like you're at the right starting point.. take a nice summer break 🙂

For unstructured data, how's your regex skills?

[smoky sparrow]

never seen unstructured data before

[fringe sphinx]

unstructured is sort of a catch all, but a common example are text documents.

You can either try to parse out meaning (ie: look for keywords, patterns, etc), or apply NLP techniques

[smoky sparrow]

alright sooo lemme just check if i got that right
to do list
get more fammiliar with whatever iev done this sem
start with data structures and algorithms
and just get started with the other stuff

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, if I were in your shoes, I'd probably read some books and do some coding project that's somewhat relevant (ie: a kaggle project).

ie: https://www.kaggle.com/competitions?hostSegmentIdFilter=5

[true hatch]

in 5 weeks my school years is done

Im sad that my grades are falling 3rd trimester

can I do a comeback?

[harsh river]

You should speak to your guidance counselor about it

[true hatch]

I dont got one, I do but he's an asshole

[harsh river]

Then stop by a different counselors office and ask them for advice

[true hatch]

actually i dont got one

[harsh river]

then speak to your principal or vice principal

[gilded tundra]

Hi

[copper zenith]

hi

[gilded tundra]

I am beginner in python

Can you please tell me how to do fast typing

[static marten]

Hi, I am too. You can use Monkeytype, Typeracer.... websites to increase your typing speed

[wary moon]

guys can anyone help me in #1035199133436354600

[lofty elbow]

hi
this yakkhsit i'm working on a B2b startup can anyone intrested in supporting me as a backend developer python. for more details just ping me. I wish every a good day.

[smoky quest]

Hi!
We don't allow ads

[buoyant seal]

!rule 6 9 , this place is not for such adds. see channel description above. <@&831776746206265384>

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[glad tusk]

sorry

then may ik where is the right one

[buoyant seal]

Discussion of Python and the world of work | NOT FOR RECRUITMENT | For recruitment and jobs, see https://www.python.org/jobs/ and https://www.pythonjobshq.com/
in channel description

[glad tusk]

alright

[pastel thunder]

• Implemented sophisticated inferencing involving 5D tensors and cosine similarity based loss functions.

good point for project description?

[modest kernel]

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[pastel thunder]

so what do you suggest,
Its one of three point to describe project.
Other two points

• Utilized BLIP backbone and a cross-attention transformer encoder with noise contrastive estimation loss.
• Conditioned video embedding with those of texts and antithetic (using OpenAI davinci-003) to improve score.

should I remove it.
It was actually pretty complicated and I spent weeks on understanding and modifying reshape, permutes

which I dont know 🤣

It alwys takes more space, If i try to be descriptive

yeah

[brave cove]

There have a software develop engineer in test(SDET) career to me

[urban dust]

hello

[urban dust]

how do i learn machine learning

[gritty rivet]

However you want to. You could take any number of free courses online. You could get a PhD on the subject. Or anything in between.

[urban dust]

mh

but the thing is I dont really have a clear goal or roadmap of how but htanl=k you for the encoutaging answer

[scarlet laurel]

what is the best skill/language i can learn to get a job

like a field/language that is higher on demand than supply on the curve

[fringe sphinx]

If you just want to get started, two good places are: kaggle.com/learn, or "CS50 for AI" (a little more academic)

[fringe sphinx]

https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-top-programming-languages-2023

[buoyant seal]

what is the best skill/language i can learn to get a job
like a field/language that is higher on demand than supply on the curve
Typescript, Java, Python, C#, Golang are all usable today
Each language is high in demand for middle or high level devs (and not so much for beginners)
and good investment for long term career.

There exist languages like Cobol that have higher demand than supply
But they have disadvantages in order to be chosen for career
They are deprecated and will always be only shrinking in size (with having not so much in the first place)

[true hatch]

are there HTML and CSS jobs?

[deft herald]

Do you mean for 14 year olds? Probably not too many

[mint oracle]

for Frontend u need js

[true hatch]

no man, Can you becoma a Software engineer with main lang being HTML and CSS

[deft herald]

not with just those two. Like Parker said, you will need JavaScript

[buoyant seal]

Should be at freelance possible to find Layout design jobs, probably will not be paid significantly
Otherwise Html and Css is one of skills for Frontend developer, but he needs to know many other thing stoo.
Also CMS devs like Wordpress devs need to know that too
And backend devs need to know that too

[mint oracle]

do u think golang suprass js and python as backend
golang>js>python

[true hatch]

I can learn HTML in a day right?

[mint oracle]

centering a div is most challenging
css is really hard

[deft herald]

Any of this stuff is going to take a significant amount of effort and time to learn

[kindred oyster]

only if you can learn calculus-1 in a day