career-advice

[vapid jay]

I'll definitely make sure to do this.

[cosmic lodge]

Is it mostly useless to put unreal engine c++ experience on your resume if you're applying for python web dev or devops jobs cuz it'll be seen as irrelevant experience

[ivory cave]

Hey guys,

I am thinking of learning in public, but I have never done it before. I am not sure which platform to choose or whether I should explore multiple platforms.

[white relic]

Do you have more relevant experience that demonstrates programming skills?

[cosmic lodge]

I could prob come up with examples i'm just wondering if a game engine was even worth including

i figured it'd sound kinda cool but i guess it's utterly irrelevant in a way

[white relic]

It's programming experience. It's only irrelevant if you have more relevant experience that won't fit on your résumé

[void tendon]

I want to get a job as an AI engineer so I want to know more about the field, like the position I can get? what specialization I can do?
Also, what's the scope of a career in this field?

[turbid bobcat]

fr tho, if I tailor every application I'm gonna be applying at a too slow a rate, as I'm doing it I totally see the benefit, but idk if im gonna be able to do it at a fast enough pace

[gritty rivet]

I haven't but if I did, I would probably choose dev.to and then also share on LinkedIn.

[gritty rivet]

I usually do a bit of both. Tailor more for the highest quality opportunities but also send out lots of generic resumes for generic positions

[wicked jolt]

klk

[gritty rivet]

Plus, having a few targeted versions of your resume for different kinds of roles and tailoring then slightly doesn't have to take that much time.

[wicked jolt]

ffsss

[turbid bobcat]

Ah, still, those are a lot of resumes. Some companies will also be geared towards a certain domain. For example this one is medical related so I wanna highlight all the relevant stuff I've done related to medical data. But some other company might be about hardware, so I'd want to emphasize the hardware stuff I've done.

No but yeah I think your idea of tailoring more for the high quality opportunities is good. Maybe keep 3 or 4 general resumes for each role. And only tailor for high quality

There's also the thing that I'm constantly doing new stuff so that's gonna be like, 4 resumes to potentially update + LinkedIn

Tho LinkedIn I can just cram it cuz I don't think anyone reads it

[hearty island]

i tailor all the time, but diff circumstances

[turbid bobcat]

Honestly I think I'm gonna keep a database of bullet points

[balmy mural]

I like to have a full resume that's way too long, then just take out anything irrelevant to condense down to one page

[turbid bobcat]

This is the way

[austere oar]

You're not going to get hired you're a smooth brain

[turbid bobcat]

Uhm, I've gotten hired multiple times in the span of 2 years

[near ocean]

🤨

[hearty island]

rather rude.

[ivory sluice]

!warn 1223639593396604989 read our #rules and #code-of-conduct and follow them before participating further in the server.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @austere oar.

[split apex]

I mean, his account was made today, he’s prob just a troll

[turbid bobcat]

I'm gonna apply to YCombinator today. Apparently they accept submissions even if you're not in the US.

If you're accepted you can be based off of wherever

[mystic violet]

I was told watching tutorial after tutorial was pointless because I wont remember anything cus I dont practice inbetween, what if the practice was incorporated into each tutorial?

So they are doing a project in the tutorial I have to follow, does that reinforce my learning?

[regal axle]

While "better", you are not critically thinking when just following along. Tutorials can introduce you to concepts and ideas, but active individual application of those concepts, is what helps cement them. Otherwise, you are just following someone elses solution. And one of the harder things to learn in this space, is problem solving. But it is also the most important thing to learn (roughly speaking)

[foggy musk]

Do I need to go to university at least in the UK to be able to work for a FAANG for software dev, im 16 and think I still have some time before uni, although im hesitant if uni is for me

[silver jacinth]

the whole field is oversaturated and the big guys are laying people off

[fringe sphinx]

This again?

[fringe sphinx]

I linked this is PyDis, but, I agree with this: #career-advice message

[fringe sphinx]

fwiw, the job market has been shaky over the past 2 years. Tech has gone through a roller coaster of massive hiring in 2020-2022, then layoffs in 2022-2023. It's a complex topic, and not easy to summarize. But, if you look at the 30 year history of tech jobs, you'll see a pattern of layoffs every 10 years or so correlated with bigger issues in the stock market.

[silver jacinth]

powell announced yesterday projections are as planned for rate cuts

[foggy musk]

I am aware of this and not listening to the swam of ppl saying were all cooked

[silver jacinth]

spy will hit another all time high soon

[foggy musk]

Fed's Stance on Interest Rates:
Fed Chair Jerome Powell emphasized the central bank not rushing to cut rates.
Strong employment data provided the Fed with more time to wait for inflation nearing 2%.
Inflation Concerns:
Inflation increased to 2.5% annually, exceeding the Fed's 2% target.
Powell cautioned against premature rate cuts to prevent disruptive inflation rebounds.

[silver jacinth]

you didn't watch the stream yesterday my guy that has no bearing

[foggy musk]

this is just a summary from CNN for what you mentioned

[silver jacinth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1DwQ8AZ74k

[fringe sphinx]

A few people from the UK have mentioned apprenticeship programs as alternative paths. I'm not familiar with how they work, but perhaps worth looking into. Me, I'm biased towards advanced degrees. If you're going to get into tech, aim for a masters (even if it's part time while working full-time)

[opal rampart]

Hello! I'm a student who is rather confused about how to proceed. I'm graduating next year with a major in computational physics and pure mathematics, as well as a minor in electrical and computer engineering. However, I have no real work experience. The most I can say in terms of professional experience is I'll be one of the authors of a paper in high energy physics publishing this summer.
To add on to this a little, I've done almost all of the course work of a traditional computer science degree, my university simply did not give it to me so I had to settle for a minor in ece.

The only "projects" I've worked on is modding video games as a hobby, so I don't have much to say in that department.

I've applied to quite a few jobs and done a couple of interviews, but I've either been ghosted or I was denied for there being a stronger candidate. Do I just keep applying? Do I just apply to grad school? I'm not really sure what I should be doing.

[turbid bobcat]

all I know is that I see endless jobs in the US and in the UK

dont look very saturated to me

[silver jacinth]

I am just saying prepare yourself for the possibility of not getting a job for awhile in tech

expectations is not reality

[foggy musk]

agreed in the UK university is a better option, however, degree apprenticeships are taking storm a bit in the UK for all areas not just CS, which is good as it provides a promising alternative to university whilst still getting a respectable degree/something to show for it with the add on benefits of a regular apprenticeship

[fringe sphinx]

I've yet to talk to a qualified software engineer in the US who can't land a job. Perhaps some people can't because they've set expectations (like: "full time remote") that limit their opportunities.

[turbid bobcat]

my stats point to me not getting to the end of the year without being hired, it's literally a matter of time until I get a job, there's so many opportunities

[foggy musk]

Not that worried tbh if I follow through with university I still got years ahead of me, im only 16 at the moment studying Alevels

[silver jacinth]

just don't be blinded by your optimism

[fringe sphinx]

Tough to say without knowing more about you, and why you've failed the interviews, and your resume. One issue with many candidates is limited exposure to engineering concepts: it's one thing to know a programming language, but another to be able to hit the ground running: understanding things like version control, test cases, CI/CD, etc.

[fringe sphinx]

I'd suggest hanging out in #python-discussion (and this channel) and start making a list of topics you know nothing about.

[turbid bobcat]

I have savings for a long time, and I keep getting interviews and opportunities non stop, if it's a numbers game, I'll win it

[foggy musk]

I plan to do this as well although I will likely go for economics or even a complete swap its unsure to say as I still have two year and can never be too sure. I enjoy economics a lot as well as computer science so I dont mind studying either at University. Agree with the wide foundation 100%

[turbid bobcat]

I think it's entry level that's having the most trouble, but that has always been like that

[opal rampart]

👍 I can add more. I have a background in competitive robotics, so I'm fairly well versed in traditional engineering concepts. I've comfortable with pcb design, and other concepts in the embedded space as well. My ece degree was mainly processor design. Other than that, my main work is mathematical modeling and machine learning, so I'm comfortable with c/cpp/python. I believe the reason why I get rejected is because I don't put out projects that show what I know.
Main thing is I haven't made it to a technical interview stage before so I think I'm just doing something wrong. I'm confident in being able to pass any technical interview, but I've been rejected at the face to face every time. I'm a little hesitant to share the reasons for which I've been rejected because they're honestly a little hard to believe.

[fringe sphinx]

This is why I really like Darkwinds advice around stuff like #career-advice message, because it's about all the things that separate green developers from those with some concept of what software engineering is about.

[fringe sphinx]

"so I think I'm just doing something wrong": To be honest, this is a refreshing comment. There's a lot of people who like to blame everyone but themselves.

[turbid bobcat]

Interesting, it would definitely be useful for me reading some of those books

Especially the stuff around unit testing, haven't been able to figure it out yet, I just do minimal testing on some parts of my program

[opal rampart]

A few examples would be I used too many abbreviations in my resume and the interviewer wasn't sure what php or aws were. (I think this one is just poor interviewers?)
Another one I've gotten fairly often was not knowing a specific framework that wasn't listed in the job description so there was a better candidate (this one make sense, not the best fit).
The ones that kill me are when I rejected for being primarily a physics/math major rather than engineering

[fringe sphinx]

also: I'm not really commenting on the specific books @buoyant seal mentions, rather that it's important to be a "student" of engineering practices.

[turbid bobcat]

What is the part that you aren't passing ? The HR interview ?

[opal rampart]

Yup

[silver jacinth]

*realistic

cs is naturally very competitive

[turbid bobcat]

I believe you're being overly negative cuz what you say doesn't match what I observe

[silver jacinth]

for every application you are being trailed for, you are competiting against at least a dozen+ other individuals as skilled as you

[turbid bobcat]

Uhm, maybe try to do mock HR interviews, practicing it is the only way, and if you don't have trouble getting interviews you can even practice by sending your resume to companies you're not fully interested in

[fringe sphinx]

You can also post a redacted (name/personal info removed) resume here and we'll comment on it.

[opal rampart]

I'll do that just that then! (it'll be a little bit though 👉 👈 )

[turbid bobcat]

Also, we have similar backgrounds, what stuff are you doing in high energy physics ?

[opal rampart]

At the moment, using ML for particle classification from the CMS experimental data.

I've also worked a little bit with spanet before if you're aware of that

[turbid bobcat]

So you take particle tracks and classify them

[turbid bobcat]

Haven't heard of it

There's a niche in ML, called physics informed ML and there's def companies out there taking simulation data and training models on it to sidestep the actual (lenghty) sims. You'd probly be a very strong fit for them

[opal rampart]

Haha, one of my failings is that I jump on whatever catches my interest and forget whatever I was working on before. I think the only reason why I'll be even on a paper before I graduate is because I need something to show. I started in neuromorphic/optimization using physics, moved to fpgas, got distracted by lagrangian coherence structures, and finally ended up more in physics informed ML

[turbid bobcat]

It's fairly common I think, when you get to a certain level of knowledge you also become able to do a lot of stuff, and, there's so many choices and the new thing always looks more shiny

[opal rampart]

I'll definitely take a look, I've tried applying for more physics involved companies before and the general consensus I got was get a phd first. Maybe I gave up too early

[turbid bobcat]

I haven't noticed that with physics companies, more so with ML research labs to be honest

I think perhaps a company like open AI is an exception, but their positions are exceptionally competitive too

No way this is MSFT doing

[fleet reef]

!rule ad

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[balmy mural]

This rings true to what I've encountered. I have a friend who works in a developer adjacent role trying to break into the field. But he refuses to work hybrid and just wants remote. He's been struggling to find a different job for the past 2 years because of that. I just don't think it's reasonable to expect fully remote roles while still a junior. I also have a second friend going for his PhD now since he can't find any fully remote jobs while being very qualified for any junior role if he wanted to

[near ocean]

Working remote spoils you, you dont want to go back to office

[turbid bobcat]

I feel the opposite, tired of being remote talking to a screen

I really wanna try hybrid at least

[peak halo]

my company does hybrid, and it's the worst of both worlds. because for every meeting, if there's at least one person who isn't at the same location as another person (either because they work at a different location or they're working at home that day), the whole meeting has to be remote. And that's the case literally every single time.

So if you apply for a company that does hybrid, see if you can figure out if they actually do anything specifically in-person, or if it's just needless chair-filling.

[near ocean]

Yep, and not only that, commute is a sizeable chunk of the day and it costs a lot of money, money youre not getting back

Had to leave the house at 7:30 to be in the office at 8:30 less than 5 miles away
Im not a morning person

Weird not more companies offer fully remote positions, im sure people would gladly take a pay cut or lower salary expectations to stay home

[peak halo]

I think it's mostly that executives are nostalgic for how offices used to be

[near ocean]

Idk about nostalgia, i think its more about them signing leases and not getting their money's worth with offices sitting empty

[turbid bobcat]

Didn't think of that. Tho I'm more motivated by having the opportunity to see people and have some social activity. Tho, rn, I'm in a particularly extreme situation cuz this place is very far away from the city, there's no one my age or with remotely the same interests as me. So I only talk with people online. And altho I don't really mind it, I can go months without seeing another person and be unphased, I don't think it's healthy for me.

I'm thinking that even if I go full remote again, I'm not gonna do it from here or from a place like this one. So maybe there's no point in hybrid or onsite

[wheat hatch]

I'm with you, worked remote during pretty much the entire pandemic and it was awesome the first month or so, then I got tired of it very quickly. Now I work at the office every day and I don't miss the remote days. But some people feel different, to each their own I guess.

[smoky quest]

Things are far more nuanced than these caricatures. It gets a lot more complicated once we get down to the trade offs

[near ocean]

It sounds like youre mixing up your social situation with your work here

[near ocean]

Arent we here to discuss these nuances? What are they?

[turbid bobcat]

Way I see it, work has people, thus is a social thing

[turbid bobcat]

Yeah I think it's a matter of preference for sure, and ig idk if I already found what fits best for me

[wheat hatch]

If you found what you prefer then go for it 😄
Trying a bunch of different things is healthy imo

[white relic]

My team is distributed US/Europe. So all important meetings are in Teams.
Still, most people come in to the office and it's usual for meetings that cross the pond to be 1 conference room here, 1 conference room there and a handful of individuals calling in from wherever.
I understand not wanting to be in the office every day, but I also find that both my productivity and my relationships with my coworkers suffer when I have to take a remote week due to sickness or travel.

Granted, part of my job requires physical presence in the lab, but even my coworkers who don't work in the lab still come in half/most days. We have a team of mostly younger millenials/old zoomers, so it's not a generational thing.

Is it possible to get work done fully remotely? Sure. But sometimes it just works better to put people in a room with a whiteboard and markers, IMO.

Not to mention the social aspect. grabbing coffee in the break room, pizza Fridays, taking a walk around the parking lot, playing ping-pong, whatever

[turbid bobcat]

there's really no substitute to face to face when you're exchanging ideas, I find

and ofc, there's an inherent social aspect to that, which is super healthy for us humans, even if you don't feel it, there's actually hard stats pointing to how healthy it is, like it affects how long you live which is crazy

[terse acorn]

Is it considered a good practice to use bootstrap or code everything from scratch?

[pine sleet]

No general good practice when it comes to this

It depends on the situation

Regardless, off topic for this channel

[sly panther]

suppose you have no industry experience and no education in CS (am coming from economics). how would you market yourself with just your github repo? what would be your workflow for applying to jobs?

[pine sleet]

Most recruiters don't have time to look at your GH repo so you have to convince them to look further based just off your resume in ~30s-60s

[sly panther]

hm, so would it be a good idea to focus on finding an abstract/summary of my project that would grab their attention?

[white relic]

You 💯% need to do that.

[pine sleet]

Yeah, essentially. You really want to get involved in impactful projects to a level that most CS grads wouldn't have in order to stand out

[white relic]

Which is practically the whole art of writing a résumé

[sly panther]

hm right... and unpaid internships aren't a thing right?

[pine sleet]

I think they are a thing but uncommon

[sly panther]

i'd be willing to grind a half-year for free if it meant industry experience lol

[smoky quest]

there is a thing as a negative return

[sly panther]

well obviously I would be applying everywhere throughout any unpaid internship

it's really just to be able to get my foot in, right

[smoky quest]

That's even worse. That means that any company investing in you would loose even more as you would try to find another job asap

[sly panther]

well, you don't tell them, and leverage any offer to start getting paid

better be in an unpaid internship and applying than jobless and applying? maybe?

[pine sleet]

They know you're gonna leave ASAP regardless of if you tell them

[paper sundial]

bro after the second month of slaving away for free writing python under a bridge:
🧟‍♂️

[white relic]

and you are beginning to see why unpaid internships are rare in the engineering space

[smoky quest]

So you are telling your prospective employer that you have low morals?

[pine sleet]

Also it's not really practical for the company as they have to spend resources on you

And interns generally don't have good output

I guess that's true of paid interns anyway

[sly panther]

low morals

what the heck lol

[smoky quest]

👏 low 👏 morals 👏

[pine sleet]

This implies that unpaid internships are easy to find

[sly panther]

i mean if there are prospects for real employment or if it's a small company i would consider doing otherwise obviously

[fringe sphinx]

Did you say you had a degree or what's your status and country?

[sly panther]

yeah, economics degree. unmarried, fully mobile, western world

[fringe sphinx]

In general, I think there's a lot of opportunities out there for people who are willing to work hard and show up to an office.

[smoky quest]

there is no incentive to hire someone who doesn't know anything, even for free. They will cost far more in wasted time and resources.
So by trying to double dip like that, it means they not only waste tons of resources but also never see any benefit to that investment

[fringe sphinx]

You want to grind it and differentiate? Be the candidate who says they hate remote work.

[sly panther]

am literally willing to move anywhere in the world at the moment for industry experience heheh

[sly panther]

heh, i wouldn't go so far as to say I know nothing (on the contrary), but i definitely do not have industry experience

[fringe sphinx]

I dont like to interview people from out of town. Too difficult to land them and then feel bad if it doesn't work out.

I'm very picky on my geographic radius

(Don't know about other companies, but I suspect that's a common hiring bias)

[smoky quest]

still cheaper to spend $$$ on a new grad than take a chance with a rando

[smoky quest]

main issue here would be visas for them

visas aren't free and so is typically preferred for candidates who are worth it

[turbid bobcat]

Thank God for the EU

[fringe sphinx]

Oh I meant even two US states away is too far for me.

[smoky quest]

ah fair enough

[paper sundial]

2 us states are like 17 eu countries tho

[sly panther]

i could definitely afford the visa stuff

[white relic]

it's not a matter of you affording it

[wheat hatch]

Are you self taught? How much programming knowledge do you have?

[paper sundial]

companies have to sponsor you

[fringe sphinx]

I have hired / sponsored visas , usually after an f1 OPT phase

[turbid bobcat]

Aren't you in the US ?

[sly panther]

self-taught, mainly python, decent common lisp, can read pretty much everything

[cunning wing]

en büyük turkish

[wheat hatch]

I'd wager your economy experience might be advantageous in the banking sector, or companies that do consultation work for banks. Some banks have in-house development, some hire external consultants to develop their platforms. Might get your foot in there to earn some experience.

[white relic]

Think about how you compare to other candidates. Why would a company hire you over the next person? (If you're considering moving) there's no shortage of self taught programmers in just about any country in the world

[sly panther]

hm yeah I should definitely look into that sector. haven't spent much time thinking about these since all the entry level jobs are at least masters-grad level, but it's probably different in programming

[sly panther]

right, this is probably the most important question

[fringe sphinx]

And many small hedge funds need people with cross functional / analytical skills

[white relic]

One possibility is that they'll hire you because you're asking less money than others with better credentials

but it's better if you can offer something (like an economics degree) that is useful to the specific company

[sly panther]

noted. thanks to all for the comments!

[wheat hatch]

Some recruiters don't know left from right when it comes to dev jobs haha. They list impossible dream-scenario requirements that no living person can meet. I'd focus on your cross-functional skills like Billy said. Lots of jobs don't require a specialized CS grad but a subject expert that can also program.

[turbid bobcat]

Hardest part of job searching is that you're constantly being reminded of the stuff you don't have ._.

Can be seriously demotivating sometimes

[white relic]

facts

[sly panther]

we should probably take a break from the AI stuff and work on job market analytics over at the AI channel

lol

[wheat hatch]

Sorta relevant anecdote: I took a signallist cert a few years ago and it was on the table that they would teach us to drive tracked terrain vehicles. The reason for this was that it was too difficult to teach the vehicle drivers signalling, but it was easy to teach us signallists how to drive. What they needed were a signalling expert that also knew how to drive, not a kickass driver that couldn't signal.

The same scenario applies in many jobs.

[fringe sphinx]

Signalist?

[wheat hatch]

I know, it's hella hard. I just try to not take things personal when job searching. Different people have different backgrounds and different circumstances.

@fringe sphinx A guy that talks radio with other people

[fringe sphinx]

Is this some foreign military expression? Never heard that phrase used that way. (In us military l, we'd call it commo).

[wheat hatch]

I guess it might be a sorta direct translation by me. I'm swedish and we call people talking comms signalists. But searching for it I found nothing in english. It's essentially a comms specialist I guess.

[wheat hatch]

Oh and this wasn't for anything military, it was for volunteer firefighting haha

[turbid bobcat]

I think that a lot of times they're just looking for signals right. Like, a PhD may not be strictly required, but if you have one it's taken as a strong signal of your competency.

I try to weed out the companies that overvalue degrees and prestige. Even if I managed to get hired at those kinds of companies I can't imagine I'd be happy in that atmosphere.

Others are more forgiving of the skills you don't have too. I've interviewed for many positions where I didn't have even half of what they listed (including the required degree level), meaning there's more to it than what they write in there. And I don't think those were companies with a shortage of candidates too.

Don't make me.less sad to be reminded that I don't use vim tho

[sly panther]

dude let's do job market analytics, the stack we're using can probably be repurposed pretty easily for that purpose

[turbid bobcat]

What kind of analysis ?

[sly panther]

you were doing text classification right? we could start by pooling all relevant data sources for job listings, i could do the model loading on the cloud for something more heavyweight

[turbid bobcat]

If you give me a dataset I can include it in my pipeline yeah

[wheat hatch]

I sorta understand what you mean. That being said it differs a lot from company to company. I work with a bunch of PhD's, very smart people, much smarter than I am. Some of them are humble, some of them are a little bit more proud. Some are incredibly specialized, some are more generalists, curious about everything. It really depends what kind of culture you land in.

Also I get picked on a lot because I use vim haha, my colleagues think I'm a dinosaur haha so it also depends on what kind of climate you land in.

[sly panther]

let me think about how to implement the idea a bit more i'll come back to you. plus this can definitely go on the resumé lol

[wheat hatch]

And yes, I also think qualities displayed during interviews are definitely weighed in some companies (the good ones imo)

[turbid bobcat]

I remember working in a team completely surrounded by PhDs, and I didn't really like it, not cuz it was them, but the company culture revolved a lot around that. They had all these requirements, how many PhDs, how many mscs, how many BScs and that somehow factored in to their funding. And the result of this is that you're valued less if you don't have this or that level, regardless of your net output.

Obviously the net output of the company ends up not being very good because of that, cuz the incentive structure is all messed up

[turbid bobcat]

Sure, the pipelines will also have summarization and next token prediction if that's useful, tho I'm not actively working on it rn cuz I started my job search

[wheat hatch]

I see what you mean now, yeah those environments suck. Was it consulting work by chance?

[turbid bobcat]

I don't think it was strictly consulting work, but it ended up being practically indistinguishable from it

It was technically a university subsidiary providing researchers and R&D in general to a select group of industry companies

[mystic violet]

how come every other person outside of this server distrust and take the mick out of employers but yall dont

what world are yall livin in

[fringe sphinx]

Comparing us to what? The hellscape that is Reddit csmajors?

[wheat hatch]

I see, the reason I asked was that many consulting firms have that model. They can sell a phd for a lot more than they can a bsc so there's economic logic to it for them.

[paper sundial]

erf

[mystic violet]

literally every other person

[turbid bobcat]

That would most certainly explain it

[fringe sphinx]

Do you talk to professional software engineers often?

[mystic violet]

Do you like work in HR or something? Are you a manager or?

[paper sundial]

billybobby is the ceo of discord

[fringe sphinx]

I've been a hiring manager for 20 years or so.

[mystic violet]

right

[turbid bobcat]

What does "take the Mick out" mean ?

[paper sundial]

make fun of, or something

[wheat hatch]

On the flip side those companies usually support you if you want to take time off for studies, and some even provide in-house education. So pros and cons.

[turbid bobcat]

Oh, thank you

[fringe sphinx]

Many of the people commenting here are professionals involved in hiring (including senior engineers who interview, and are consulted on hiring decisions)

[mystic violet]

nah nah, i totally understand now, dw

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, it's my one regret at this phase of my career: I wish I finished my PhD. Would have no value in earlier years, but at a certain point it becomes very helpful on your resume (even if just a piece of paper) when consulting.

[turbid bobcat]

Yeah there were certainly those kinds of things, a lot of the people I met there are still there and now pursuing a higher degree within the company

[mystic violet]

Do you think AI degrees (in the UK) are 'filler' and have no real world value employment wise?

If said degree was from an average University

[turbid bobcat]

But isn't consulting less profitable for developers ? Here in PT people will usually prefer to work for companies that have a product, consulting companies tend to pay less and have worst conditions

I have noticed in talking to my previous boss that there doesn't seem to be the same perception outside of my country

[vapid jay]

I have not started to code but I want to learn Python. What is the best way to start, what courses are good for beginners. I saw some good ones on udemy but not sure which, and I think codecademy is too expensive

[fringe sphinx]

There's many types of consulting.

[mystic violet]

Find some lengthy tutorials on Youtube, there's plenty

[fringe sphinx]

!res

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[mystic violet]

Programming with Mosh got me started

[turbid bobcat]

What are the other kinds ?

[wheat hatch]

I can definitely see that. Lots of money to be made if you have connections and experience. I consulted during the pandemic and found it was not for me, now I value job stability above all else haha.

[fringe sphinx]

Independent consulting is a pretty good gig, if you have a specialty and a reasonably good network. With some domain and engineering knowledge, you can help companies on product strategy, or perform outside analysis (I did a lot of this in the past), etc.

Some people pivot from independent consulting to forming a small business: if you find clients with a need that they can't solve in house.

[turbid bobcat]

Oh so like as a contractor

[vapid jay]

Would it be fine to start with a course too? I think a hands on one would be helpful to me so I can test with it. I dont know which are the best to do though, especially for free

[vapid jay]

what is that?

[mystic violet]

a youtube channel

[fringe sphinx]

Sure, there's just many ways to make a $$ in the independent contractor / consultant world

Also not easy, and not something I'd recommend for entry level.

[mystic violet]

Just try one, if you pick the wrong one, you pick the wrong one

[turbid bobcat]

Cuz like here consulting is, you get hired by a company, which then sells your services to another company. And they take a cut so your wage is lower because of it

[paper sundial]

"ai degrees" as in cs degrees with focus on machine learning and ai development?

[mystic violet]

yh

[paper sundial]

of course not, they're good its a graduate cs specialization lol

[mystic violet]

k thx

its just cus someone said to me ill end up working as a dishwasher

i think hes just a hater tho

[paper sundial]

smoking crack, why would a CS graduate degree holder with a specialization in the hottest field in tech work as a dishwasher?

[mystic violet]

thats what im fckin thinking, like ong

[paper sundial]

fact is, ai and machine learning is just shit ton of higher level mathematics at the core so having a speciality in that is like having a minor in mathematics in my opinion

[whole flare]

oops 🗿

[turbid bobcat]

There's a ton of people out there who honestly believe a college degree is useless. It's hard to believe but they exist and are numerous

[paper sundial]

some degrees lowkey are

but no stem degree will ever be useless

[turbid bobcat]

No but even technical or math heavy ones

[true harness]

some degrees will not unlock many job opportunities. having only a bachelor's in physics, for example, won't give you any physics research jobs

[vapid jay]

oh ok

[turbid bobcat]

You can actually get research jobs with BSc in Physics, just not as a full blown researcher.

[vapid jay]

Well I dont want to waste time or money ykwim.
does anyone here know, I can list the ones I saw

[turbid bobcat]

If you have an MSc you might even get hired as a researcher while you wait for your PhD candidacy to come through, know of several cases of this

[hearty island]

i will have a degree in business analytics and i might have a chance to work for FINRA. if i can do this interview.

[uncut ledge]

For top grad schools (cmu/stanford/berkeley/mit) what kind of undergrad gpa are they looking for?

[true harness]

you can look at admission statistics for that. but generally close to 4

[paper sundial]

i just checked illinois urbana's average gpa, it's ~3.94 i thought it was less lol

[vapid jay]

Generally 4.0 or something like that, SAT scores don't need to be maxed out but they need to be high. But what gets you into those schools is a "story".

[uncut ledge]

why would grad schools care about sat score

[vapid jay]

some carrers should complete master degree as "minimum requirement" to start

[whole flare]

thankfully not cybersec

[paper sundial]

that is assuming that they want to get into academia and not industry, if they want to get into industry even a physics bachelor will open countless doors due to the rigor of it, even outside the "physics" field

[paper sundial]

they wouldn't, but maybe some additional standardized test like GMAT?

[vapid jay]

if you have a physics bachelor you have some options, but if you get a master degree you have 3x more options.
for example, in my job is common physics get contracted to work with deep learning

[silver jacinth]

data science in general is about automating yourself out of a job

its just statistics programming basically

[paper sundial]

"some" is an understatement in my opinion. Even with just a Bachelor's in Physics you can work in countless different positions in pretty much any industry. Obviously a Master's degree opens even more opportunities, but if you don't want to get into academia a Master's may likely not even be necessary, let alone PhD

[vapid jay]

i think for research companies a degree just mean you have experience doing research and the more important documenting it

[turbid bobcat]

No it's best to go into industry asap, you'd want those 2 years dedicated to having XP in the field you're actually working in or go for an MSc related to AI

And also, unless you get a thesis in deep learning in your physics msc

[vapid jay]

here in my country there is a lot of physics/mathicians masters working with deep learning or machine learning associated jobs

[paper sundial]

To some degree yes, but a hard science degree like Physics or Math also indicates extreme resilience, problem solving capability and mathematical prowess which comes with the extraordinary rigor of such a degree. And all of those skills are applicable anywhere, maybe except blue collar jobs? Knowing the secrets of the universe won't help you much in carrying bags of cement

[turbid bobcat]

Yeah I'd imagine so

Still better to have had those years in XP

[paper sundial]

Of course, because deep learning, ai and machine learning is just advanced math under the hood. And Mathematicians are the greatest at math followed closely by Physicists then the rest, so they're the greatest for such a job

[vapid jay]

i'm a mathician, not master yet, someday i get it, for stability

[paper sundial]

Applied or Pure?

[turbid bobcat]

Haven't finished my masters, but my thesis was for sure very useful for me because it was a huge code project. Rn I still list my thesis project on my resume but don't even include education section unless I have some relevant coursework I wanna show

[vapid jay]

my course hitted me hard, pure and computational hehe

[paper sundial]

I'm currently working towards studying Mathematics for my undergrad, likely will get my Masters because I'm European and in Eu a Bachelor is viewed in many places as "half a degree" needing Master to be complete. Will probably do my Master's in Computer Science though

[turbid bobcat]

Wait where is that viewed like that ?

[paper sundial]

That's pretty much optimal to work at AI, ML and DL. But even if you don't want to work in academia or the AI sector, you can easily find a job anywhere else like finance sector etc.

[vapid jay]

yeaahh, i work as developer right now, in scientific software, but i will back to academy

[paper sundial]

Eh, I think around central europe? I heard people saying and talking about that irl, although that's no longer as much of a case as it was years ago

[vapid jay]

i mean, if you live in a country like Brazil, the easiest way to get out of here is through academic title, ps i'm brazilian

[paper sundial]

It's moreso the older generation that say that about the degrees

[turbid bobcat]

Weird. I've definitely heard people complain about the standardization of the courses, BSc used to be 4 years but due to EU, it got cut to 3

But usually folks within academia tbh, they don't always have the best birds eye view into the industry

[paper sundial]

🤷‍♂️ I just know that I will likely get my Master's in Computer Science after my Math undergrad. And tbh even w/just a Bachelor I should have no issue finding a job in industry (i have no interest in academia)

[turbid bobcat]

More education can't hurt

[paper sundial]

Yeah, an extra year or two isn't that bad

[vapid jay]

BSc should be 4 years, and still a small amount of time

[turbid bobcat]

Yeah I agree

[paper sundial]

Although I'm planning on studying in Switzerland where cost of living is quite high, thankfully not that bad as a student

[vapid jay]

i took 5 years to finish my BSc, and the course originally was about 4 years

[turbid bobcat]

I think if I ever go back to student it'll be on an industry sponsored PhD, I know people in a previous company I worked in that are doing this. They develop something of use to the company and the company provides the resources for the PhD

I reckon the faculty could ease on the MSc requirement too if I have a company backing me up

Tho it's almost done I could just finish it

[vapid jay]

ahhh in EUA is very different from here, as emergent contry the science is basically sponsored by the state, and did't there is too much PhD's, and about 50% of then are working in another area

[paper sundial]

what's your degree

[turbid bobcat]

I did not understand

[turbid bobcat]

BSc physics, msc medical physics, would do PhD in ML

[vapid jay]

here, in Brazil, the academy basically is sponsored by the state, traditionally when you finish PhD they go work as researcher and teacher

[paper sundial]

nice man

[turbid bobcat]

Oh, maybe there's industry research labs too

[vapid jay]

there is, but not too much, i mean, you can get to work on Samsung, Google and etc..

but here don't have big tech companies, just medium - small companies, native from this country

[turbid bobcat]

I'm very conflicted about my academic path.

On one hand I would've wanted a harder MSc like in pure physics, I'm perfectly capable of it and beyond. But the choice of medical physics was incredibly solid and what put me on the path I'm in right now. I really like where my life is going.

[vapid jay]

medical physics seens a very nice path

[paper sundial]

good for you man, i'm currently working hard to put my life back on the right path although it's difficult and convoluted

I assume medical physics is similar to biomathematics

[vapid jay]

i hope you reach it, you are right in trying back

[paper sundial]

thanks man 🤝

we just gotta keep working hard, although sometimes it's a different level of difficulty and helplessness

[vapid jay]

medical physics involves studying nuclear physics too?

some hospitals specialized in cancer treatment contracts physics to work with it

[turbid bobcat]

It has a lot of intersection with bioengineering, but focuses on cancer treatments and medical imaging. So stuff like radiotherapy, radiology, MRI, PET, etc.

There's also more niche subjects like novel cancer treatments using nano particles etc

[paper sundial]

sounds very interesting and satisfying

[turbid bobcat]

Yeah that stuff too.

My thesis was the development of a monte Carlo simulator, it simulates photons electrons and positrons which you can use to predict radiotherapy treatments on arbitrary geometries

[vapid jay]

using metropolis like algorithm?

[turbid bobcat]

How is the metropolis algorithm

I remember the name for sure

[vapid jay]

if i remember right you get some normal samples and distribue it to the target system

i remember of using it to solve ising model in a grid

[turbid bobcat]

Omg same

Ig it's similar in that there's a lot of sampling. In short, you extract probability models from the particle physics and then you use them to sample the path of the particle as it travels through the medium

[vapid jay]

uuhhhmm, seens very nice

as a thesis you did a lot of math behind the code, i mean proof's and etc

[turbid bobcat]

I've done a lot more coding then math I'd say. It's like I had a huge collection of research papers and I turned them into a big codebase

So I didn't actually derive all the probability models myself, as that would take a long time. I just read through the derivations and then turned them into code

[vapid jay]

for my BSc thesis i made a tensorflow like framework and applied it in games data, also i included the math up to the universal approximation theorem, i can't prove it, due to lack of background in metrics theory sadly

i combined software engineering, math and ai in the work ehuehue

[vapid jay]

i think is better, you also can use Mathematica software to help in this matter hmmmm

[turbid bobcat]

Idk, it was certainly super useful. It had the effect I intended it to have, more so than I expected, which was to get me a footing in the industry, have practical knowledge and not just theoretical math and physics.

But it still kinda bothers me that it's not like, as challenging a subject as something like an MSc in math or MSc in physics - even tho in hindsight the choice was incredibly good in terms of the effect it had on my life

All humans are always complicated in some way and I am human

[turbid bobcat]

That sounds pretty cool

[turbid bobcat]

Here in Portugal we don't have a thesis in the BSc, only in msc

But I certainly think its a good idea for the BSc to have a thesis

[paper sundial]

Lol I feel both jealousy and respect towards you. You can always go to post-grad if you seek a challenge, or perhaps change industries or work on your own side projects to satisfy your intellectual curiosity?

I think I'm the same, I like challenges but my current position in life definitely makes it extremely difficult to enjoy them, especially since they're not primarily intellectual and countless external variables interfere and set me back

[turbid bobcat]

Why jealousy tho ? Seems like you are on a pretty good path yourself, even had to go back and check, math degree + msc computer science, sounds solid to me

[paper sundial]

I'm not in Uni yet, working towards it

It's not easy, and I'm beyond tired to be honest. These external hurdles definitely make me feel lost and helpless at times, but I know I gotta keep going forward. My only motivation outside of discipline I've built is the difference between me from a year and a half ago and me now.

Still, it's hard and I have to essentially "reset" everything including academics to even be able to study at university. It's very expensive, difficult and most importantly time consuming when I'm rapidly running out of time and have multiple other things setting me back and dragging me down lol

[turbid bobcat]

Uhm, I don't know what stuff is dragging you down but I assume is super personal. But in terms of college being expensive, maybe trying to get a scholarship of some form (tho I'm sure you've probly explored these kinds of avenues).

Here in PT it can be challenging cuz to put it bluntly, the country is poor so these grants can be competitive and easy to lose. But central to northern Europe stuff tends to be much better overall and I think they have programs that take candidacies from anywhere in the EU

[wind python]

Any norwegians here?

[wheat hatch]

Would a swede do?

[wind python]

yeah

[wheat hatch]

Shoot

[peak halo]

you'd probably get a response faster if you had said "a question for any norwegians/scandinavians: " and then proceeded immediately with your actual question.

[wind python]

it is a test...

[peak halo]

a test?

[wind python]

you wouldn't get it

[peak halo]

Alright, well in the future, please do not "ask to ask", as this wastes time.

[wind python]

@paper sundial you have been typing for the last 5 minutes

[paper sundial]

Yeah, it’s personal although not within my control either, which is one of the biggest issues I’m facing. And you’re right I’ve looked at scholarship opportunities, but to be honest it doesn’t matter if you’re from Switzerland, Germany or even lowest of the slums of Romania etc.. The vast majority of scholarships in by the EU are for Master’s+ while I’ll be doing my first Bachelor’s.

I’ve searched far and wide as to how I could help finance my studies but always ended up at a deadend, either because the scholarships were for Master’s+ or because my status as a non-traditional learner interfered and complicated things.

Which is probably my biggest issue, my non-traditional path. It complicates things, although it’s definitely not as impeding as the rest of the shit on my back.

it is what it is tho, i’ll manage somehow

[paper sundial]

why dglaze?

[jolly knot]

im studying comp sci next year at uni, how math dependant is it?

[balmy spade]

Wouldn't that be detailed in the course requirements?

[peak halo]

Depends on the course structure. Some will mostly be about programming and some will be mostly about theory. If there's a course early in the program called "discrete math" or "discrete structures", that one will be very mathy.

But computer science is, fundamentally, a branch of math.

[smoky quest]

if you are in the EU, evening classes with schedules more accommodating to people with jobs are quite popular

[stiff relic]

Hello!

[limber hatch]

guys what we must do because the AI will replace us ,?

[brisk wave]

don’t do anything

just sleep

[smoky quest]

Make sure you get a proper education like a CS degree so that you can keep up with the changes and have a prosperous career

[quick roost]

Hi guys

Guys which one do you recommend for computer engineering, Mac or Windows? and Why?

[smoky quest]

doesn't matter, unless your school has a specific software that requires a specific system

many students do go through their entire studies with GNU/Linux too

[turbid bobcat]

Interesting, I've never looked at a BSc scholarship so that's indeed a pattern that would've flown right by me.

Is it possible that scholarships for computer science degrees are more common than math ones ? Since your plan is to do a BSc in math and then an MSc in CS, that could be a confounding variable.

I don't know what is a non-traditional learner, but yes, academia is notoriously inflexible towards anything that goes a bit off what they perceive to be the average. Tho I do wanna refrain from characterizing the entire thing based on my experience of my faculty. One of the things I learned from my colleagues in the MSc program is how different things could be from one university to the other. So there may very well be a good uni/faculty that might be a good fit for you somewhere.

[shut inlet]

Can someone here help me

[harsh remnant]

I have heard many prefers Mac to code because it’s just easier and convenient. That wasn’t for my case though when I tried to install a module and it took me 2 days because of Apple’s tedious security system (I am currently locked out of my Mac I forgot my password). I like windows a lot better that’s just me. I guess is just preference? Hardcore devs probably use Linux or smth.

[white relic]

I have never heard of Macs being preferred for software development (except for those who develop for iOS)

I've heard xcode is decent though

Oh but computer engineering though... Idk. You'll most likely be using some windows-only software in some classes but as long as you're OK with emulation or using the computer labs (if present) on occasion you'll be fine

I used Linux my entire degree program

[hearty island]

“Thank you for your interest in our Financial Data Analyst opportunity here at Lyft! We’re grateful for your consideration as you look for your next challenge. Although we’re not able to speak with every candidate, we wanted to provide final clarity regarding your application. We recently completed our interviews and filled the position. Feel free to keep an eye on our Careers page for future openings.

Best of luck in your job search!

Fistbumps,

Lyft Recruiting” fistbumps 😭😭😭

[fringe sphinx]

I've known many web devs to prefer Mac, for some reason. My last company was almost 50/50 Mac-Pc (developers choice). Me, my laptop is Mac and desktop is PC. In prior companies, the company mandated everyone on PC... argument was easier for IT and for engineers to all be standardized.

[buoyant seal]

I would recommend Windows having WSL2 for Linux stuff.

• Then u benefit from having all stuff windows compatible according to ancient university tech
• at the same time getting acceptable enough more direct access to Linux compatibility with majority of server (and other dev) technologies today

I am personally Linux only user, but I think Windows with WSL2 will flare better for university env I think.

P.s. I don't see a point to consider Apple.

[buoyant seal]

I have heard many prefers Mac to code because it’s just easier and convenient.

Huh. In this phrasing should be Linux. It is easiest and most convenient choice for devs, entire OS is owned and configurable like IDE. First level support for majority of dev tech. Great choice by default... (Unless you code windows desktop or apple desktop stuff and your language/tech stack lacks cross platform sufficient capabilities)

[digital fjord]

Companies use mac as dev machines because it is close enough to Linux for a lot of usecases, and is much easier to manage in bulk than Linux. If you don't care about bulk management, I would recommend against it by default.

[turbid bobcat]

As a dev, my experience on mac has been pretty bad. But for other kinds of usage it was a better experience than any other platform

I also generally prefer to develop using the OS in which the application is gonna be deployed in, or as close as possible to it

[true harness]

just use devcontainers

[turbid bobcat]

I do in a way, but wouldn't work on mac since it's bad at doing docker, smething about their file system being proprietary idk, if you use M1 or M2 it also doesn't bode well with docker cuz of arm, plus half the time if you're doing ml you gonna want to use the pre-made pytorch/tensorflow x86 images which implies qemu virtualization in your already overburdened mac

I do believe these issues are mitigated if you have the 32gb ram one, but I was not fortunate enough to be provided with it, was using the 16gb

but really at that point you have a situation where a 1-3k dollar machine is being outperformed by this 300buck laptop I have here, which runs an ubuntu and i3 - 0 complaints

[waxen roost]

hi

[outer nacelle]

hello, I am currently a student learning python. Can someone guide me on what python modules should I considering learning as a student? I don't have any specific program aim currently just want to learn those which are most useful and demanded

[wheat hatch]

Depends what you want to work with, different fields and industries use a little bit different modules. Numpy is prolly one of the more general ones, but then again it's a fundamental building block for a lot of scientific computing libraries.

[fringe sphinx]

If you're interested in data analysis: Kaggle.com/learn is a good starting point.

[wheat hatch]

Seconded, kaggle is really good and can give you lots of real world datasets to practice on

[outer nacelle]

ah, okay I'll definitely check that out

[outer nacelle]

as for this I don't have any defined goals currently. I just want to grasp as much as possible

[fringe sphinx]

Don't worry about learning modules or acquiring 'knowledge': you get good at programming by solving hard problems and learning how to learn. It's more important to tackle challenging projects that interest you. Building a game using pygame-ce, or doing a ai/ml project, or data analysis, or a web page, or a simple command line app that does something useful are all equally good learning experiences.

!kin has many project ideas

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[wheat hatch]

I would recommend you to pick up hobby projects then, as billy said you learn a lot by working on stuff you find is interesting, especially if it is challenging

What are your interests?

[paper sundial]

Possible, but my issues aren’t the classes rather pretty much everything else. I’ll keep this in mind as a possible back-up plan though

[fringe sphinx]

Also, in US, we have community colleges where you can knock out some of the prerequisites/fundamental courses. Getting Calculus & Intro to Programming & Sciences done is a good starting point (not just for credits, but because these are where many freshman fail)

[paper sundial]

Not really no, both are STEM degrees and thus receive the same advantages and benefits. Which means the scholarships are equally nigh-inaccessible at the Bachelor’s level.

And by non-traditional I basically mean that I don’t have a high school diploma so I have to get an alternative, which I am in the process of, but it’s difficult because I have to basically self-teach myself everything up to at least a high school level in various subjects most of which are sciences. Which isn’t an issue for me but my time constraints are horrible and make it a daily nightmare to enjoy the process and it’s ruining me mentally

[paper sundial]

I’m not from the US. Although we also have an option to attend classes without matriculation. Which means that while we can attend, we have to pay like matriculated students and unlike them we receive no credits

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, that's crazy. No credits for non-matriculated students? In US, many Uni's allow non-degree/non-matriculated students to take courses for transfer credit.

[paper sundial]

🤷‍♂️

[fringe sphinx]

Some high school students will take Uni courses for credit over the summer, and get college credit for them later.

[paper sundial]

I’m also not a student

[fringe sphinx]

Here, the universities don't really care about your status. Only that you're non-matriculated. And of course, willing to pay $$

[paper sundial]

Here as well, I was just pointing it out

Well, I have a solid plan and have been working towards it for over a year now, but my mental health is suffering pretty badly from the constant additional pressure of external variables

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I hear you. And am worried about you. I'm a lot older, and my education took some odd turns. I hope you get the help & guidance you need: but take care of your mental health, you're young.

[paper sundial]

I appreciate it. One of the many pressures in my life is the fact that I’m already in my early 20s and basically have to redo everything from 0 academically speaking (I have no high school diploma). I constantly feel behind and “too old” and disadvantaged which fucks with my mental health. Fortunately all the universities I’m interested in and reached out told me that my age is nothing to worry about and they have no age limit, but it still feels bad knowing I could’ve been at my goals already if I took control of my life sooner, began self learning earlier etc.

I also don’t want to be the 25 year old among the 18-19 year olds during 1st year of University and such

[hearty island]

i mean i'll be graduating a year older than everyone else simply bc i struggled in cs freshman year and had to take a break. so i understand

what billybobby is saying is right, your mental health really matters

[paper sundial]

I know, but simply knowing alone doesn’t really help much. I have to change my mentality and reduce pressure

[fringe sphinx]

You'll be surprised at how much a few years of age will improve your University experience. I've said it before but: I did so bad at University at first that I ended up in the military for a few years (and finished my degree, and later got a graduate degree).

[hearty island]

if i didn't have that one year gap, i wouldn't have thought of doing the amount of internships i did. so less practical experience.

[turbid bobcat]

I remember sharing class with people with gray hair, nothing but the utmost respect for them.

And also, putting things into perspective, something like a 5 year delay is nothing when compared with the length of a career

[paper sundial]

Respect that. I’ll have to work harder, I just need to reduce external pressures

[paper sundial]

I agree, but when you have external pressures on your back with little to no control over them it’s extremely difficult nonetheless

I just have to thug it out. I feel a bit better now

[little mango]

If anyone would like to join my Fortnite Group please dm me and I’ll catch up to u later

[hearty island]

wrong spot. try an ot channel

[vapid jay]

Ew, Video Games.

[turbid bobcat]

take care of yourself, fr, it's a marathon not a race, you can def push yourself too hard and then it will just take more time from you, might as well treat yourself right and go for that long term productivity

[icy halo]

how py is used in aws or any cloud platform?

[fleet reef]

Please see the description of this channel. Please use #python-discussion for general Python questions.

[paper sundial]

Thanks man

[brazen minnow]

HI, can Someone suggestme intership portal as I am studying masters in AI still going on so may i know where can i find internshipas my uni aint providing?

[smoky quest]

linkedin and indeed are great places to look for internships

[silver jacinth]

Don't waste your time with getting a degree, just start working now

[smoky quest]

this is a terrible advice

[paper sundial]

Clearly if that was a viable option, especially in my situation, I would've done that, it would've made everything simpler, but as you can see I'm not doing it.

[silver jacinth]

what region are you in

[silver jacinth]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/01/china-graduates-jobs-market-youth-unemployment

https://www.linkedin.com/news/story/cooler-job-market-greets-graduates-5815753/

[paper sundial]

Thank god I'm not from China or Canada. And thank god I know why I want to study, instead of blindly going into studies thinking it will sort my life out.

[silver jacinth]

just know that by the time you graduate, you'll be competing against AI

[paper sundial]

I'll probably be among those working on AI

[smoky quest]

As pointed out previously, the main issue stems from your resume and how you present yourself. Which makes things even more difficult for you in a tighter market as we are

[silver jacinth]

they train themselves now

[paper sundial]

Good for them. Drop the topic, what you said is simply disrespectful from multiple facets to me

[silver jacinth]

look at the ORCA 2 paper by MSFT.
Nvidia NIMs also have this functionality where they train themselves on small datasets to specialize in certain tasks on their own

[finite juniper]

Guys

[silver jacinth]

just saying you guys gotta be realistic

[finite juniper]

CAN yall help with something

[smoky quest]

is it related to careers?

[finite juniper]

Kinda im building a pc

[smoky quest]

so it's not related to careers. See #❓｜how-to-get-help

[paper sundial]

The day a hard science degree like mathematics becomes obsolete is the day humanity crumbles lol

[silver jacinth]

data science is hard mathematics, basically statistics

[paper sundial]

mathematics =/= data science, data science falls under mathematics though.

[silver jacinth]

if you wanna risk 3-5 years of your life and a debt, go ahead just prepare yourself for the worst outcome

[paper sundial]

in fact, everything in the universe is just mathematics; physics, chemistry, biology, computer science (off-shoot of applied mathematics), AI etc.

[silver jacinth]

and we use computers to simulate most of these things since they're better than us

[paper sundial]

good for them❓

[smoky quest]

We also use cars as a mode of transportation since they are better than us for that purpose. It doesn't mean cars will replace us.
I understand you are frustrated, but no reason to spread doomerism here

[silver jacinth]

just trying to bring realism here because now there's a lot more people expecting a career from this sector when there's large risks here

everyone can be blind by optimism and saying something like cs is stable and viable is not true

[smoky quest]

The main issue here is that your message has nothing realistic. It's just the translation of your frustration

[paper sundial]

Who tf even said I want to work in the tech sector❓

And even if I was, telling me to simply abandon what I dedicated myself to wholly for the last year+, as "advice", is disrespectful to everything I've done for the last year and a half

[silver jacinth]

just saying it'll be better to live with money than pursue a piece of paper

especially if the future of the global economy may be automated

[fringe sphinx]

Look, your "realism" runs contrary to the rest of us who work in the field. You are quite convinced that you are right, and have not engaged in any dialog about it. You've made your point.

[paper sundial]

Mm no, you're just projecting frustration as @smoky quest said. If the "global economy" becomes fully "automated", we'll still have our intellectual curiosity to quench

[silver jacinth]

so we should instead lie to people?

[whole flare]

I guess it's time to become homeless 😔

[silver jacinth]

I am just saying don't get a degree expecting money out of it

[paper sundial]

Once again, the day a Mathematics/Physics degree becomes obsolete is the day the last human passes away lol

[silver jacinth]

you'll be spending money pursuing it with the risks of gaining nothing but that degree and knowledge. Job prospects aren't guaranteed

[fringe sphinx]

"lie"? You're preaching doom and gloom with no nuance. A nuanced argument would be welcome, such as: "CS is in a state of flux, and one should go into the field with eyes wide open". But, "CS is doomed and AI is coming to take our jerbs so don't go to college." is, well, not particularly useful or good advice.

[paper sundial]

subjective, and only applies in certain cases. you're either extremely narrow-minded fully believing that a CS degree = only jobs as a developer, which it doesn't

[true harness]

everything carries risk. however, it is evident based on hiring trends that a having a degree carries much less risk than going without one

[smoky quest]

I would still suggest you to go back to the previous discussions where you shared your resume and to heed the advice people have given you

[paper sundial]

If I was trying to get a degree in like Gender Studies (no offense to anyone), I would probably heed your "advice" and not put myself through so much stress, but the degree I'm working towards is simply never going to be obsolete lol

[fringe sphinx]

That's also a great point, I haven't seen stats on it, but I've seen many CS majors in other career paths... same with Lawyers and Doctors.

[paper sundial]

Yep. People forget that CS is extremely quantitative and prepares you for more than just CS, specifically programmer, related jobs

And programmers being replaced is also very subjective, sure at MANGA companies you might be laid off, but no, for example, space agency is going to risk getting their program written independently by AI in such early stages where the consequences might be catastrophic

[silver jacinth]

missile guidance is all automated

[paper sundial]

Basically, saying that AI will wholly replace people w/a degree in CS is the equivalent of saying that calculators replaced mathematicians

[paper sundial]

one facet =/= the entire codebase and whatever intricacies exist there. And there is definitely a team overseeing whatever automated output they get for errors and accuracy.

[whole flare]

off by 1% and suddenly my rocket has landed on Gliese 436-b instead of Mars oopsie

[fringe sphinx]

"Oops, metric!" https://www.simscale.com/blog/nasa-mars-climate-orbiter-metric/

[near ocean]

Not that kind of missile 💀

[whole flare]

hate it when that happens

[whole flare]

🦅

[paper sundial]

"oops AI generated code made a 1% error (autopilot in aircrafts moved half a meter to the right) and suddenly my plane lands in San Francisco instead of New Jersey!"

[silver jacinth]

did you see nvidia's omniverse in gtc

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/launchpad/ai/generative-ai-inference-with-nim/

[paper sundial]

Sorry, I just don't give a fuck

[silver jacinth]

well I am just saying nvidia expects AGI by 2030

and these NIMs are an example of isolating specialized tasks and scaling them. All automated

[paper sundial]

Good for them, very relevant to me getting a degree in Mathematics

They could be saying they expect AI-powered Robots to be doctors, and the need for actual doctors would not decrease, quite the opposite it would increase

[smoky quest]

https://cbsaustin.com/news/auto-matters/self-driving-cars-are-just-four-years-away-says-nvidia am still waiting

I am also pretty sure they predicted the same thing a few years before but am too lazy to dig that far

[whole flare]

Must've been an Airbus since Boeing's autopilot would've probably calculated the destination to be Mount Olympus

[paper sundial]

True, but a Boeing's engine would've fallen out 15 minutes into the journey

[whole flare]

it's fine the AI regenrates them in flight

[silver jacinth]

if boeing used ai they wouldn't miss fittings on their planes if they are all built the same

[whole flare]

3D printing on the go

[paper sundial]

At this point I view you on the level of conspiracy theorists, I imagine you with a tinfoil hat too

[whole flare]

at some point maintenance also falls on the operator of the aircraft so you can't blame Boeing for everything going wrong these days in the media

[paper sundial]

I get your concerns, but they're pretty misguided

[smoky quest]

let's avoid ad hominem attacks

[silver jacinth]

some people follow the herd: ie expecting a degree to bring them success

[whole flare]

anyway this is getting way off topic for career discussion

[paper sundial]

print("ok")

[near ocean]

It sure helps

[silver jacinth]

well it won't matter in 2 years

I am willing to place a bet with anyone here

[whole flare]

what are we betting?

[fringe sphinx]

This feels like a pascals wager situation.

[silver jacinth]

I got 2btc

[whole flare]

I'll hold the bets. (I won't give them back, get trolled)

[whole flare]

was that a typo?

[silver jacinth]

I will bet 0.05btc that cs will be automated for the bulk of development and ops

[fringe sphinx]

So, the bet is: "we're all f'd and have no agency in the matter" vs "being well educated is a good way to prepare for your future".

[whole flare]

if you have 2 BTC why only stake 0.05 BTC, go big or go home

or are you not certain in your assertion?

[silver jacinth]

well the people betting against me will have to pay up that as well

[fringe sphinx]

Your position seems to be, and correct me if I'm wrong: "There will be a dramatic reduction in the SWE (or equivalent) positions".

[silver jacinth]

near 50% of SWE positions

[paper sundial]

why does bro still only focus on CS and Tech jobs⁉️as if other sectors don't exist and weren't mentioned by us not once

however many jobs AI will replace, as many if not more it will create

[silver jacinth]

traditional jobs will decline

mass unemployment worldwide is my guess. Whether you believe it or not, I think it will happen

[whole flare]

best I can do is 200 million pesos, take it or leave it.

[silver jacinth]

at least 10% of global job positions will be gone by 2026

[paper sundial]

nobody said we don't believe it, and nobody said it won't happen, you're just severely, almost entirely, pessimistic and it's kinda sad but you do you lil bro

[silver jacinth]

its called being realistic

[near ocean]

10% in 2 years is not that realistic my guy

[silver jacinth]

we'll see

[whole flare]

time to run the numbers

[paper sundial]

You gotta face the fact that jobs lie on a spectrum of risk to no risk. Some jobs are impossible to automate, some are destined. I just think whatever you're doing is either destined or highly likely to be automated and are extremely frustrated by it and projecting it 😕 this is a new era for humanity, as I said however many jobs AI replaced as many if not more it will create. Things will become easier for us, AI was created to serve and help us.

[fringe sphinx]

They haven't worked in the field, as far as I understand, which is part of why I've been very forceful in my responses.

[silver jacinth]

I don't think we'll be needed in society. There will be UBI and a large impoverished population due to relying on handouts

[paper sundial]

I see, shame because neither did/do I. I just think with an open mind and with a bit more common sense.

[true harness]

iirc, you were in a degree program looking for internships, right? have you dropped out?

[silver jacinth]

still in it have an unpaid one

[paper sundial]

Drop out then. Heed your own advice.

Or perhaps it is only you that can have specific plans requiring a degree and nobody else, which is why you're still pursuing your education?

[silver jacinth]

I finished my program, just have 2 more classes

[whole flare]

Is there a need to finish it now?

[near ocean]

Refuse the honours 🤠

[fringe sphinx]

My policy is to ignore anyone who speaks in a "conclusory" manner. There's plenty of people who state a conclusion with no interest in discussion, no explanation or rationale, or engagement. They're easy to ignore.

[paper sundial]

And is there a need to be doing internship(s) in a specific field, a specific job, that you're so worried about?

[whole flare]

just put it on pause its not an online multiplayer game you'll be fine

[paper sundial]

They are, but some hit close to home. I think this was the equivalent of telling a devoted Christian to stop being a Christian after they've devoted their whole life wholly to their beliefs. It's just extremely disrespectful to everything they've done throughout their life and everything they stand for. Harder to ignore.

[near ocean]

Multiplayer games do not work that way!

[whole flare]

😔

[livid perch]

Hello

[turbid bobcat]

ngl idk how I ever got an interview without tailoring my resume, it can really make the application much stronger, I mean at least it seems that way after doing it

[turbid bobcat]

it's actually a common misconception that just because you choose to believe in the negative thing, it somehow makes it more realistic

Why would the universe even care if something is negative or positive for us, stuff just kinda happens and on avg, we try to push it towards the good direction and hope for the best

[ashen urchin]

Hello world! I'm looking for a mentorship in learning programming languages. I have only fundamental skills. Entry level IT Support and Data analysis. Anybody out there who is willing to go on a journey with me? Greetings from Belgium!
ATM I'm studying NumPy and panda's. Thank you for reaching out to me.

[smoky quest]

tbh, it's unlikely you will find a successful mentor willing to take on someone they don't know. It's very time and energy consuming. So doing it for free for strangers is not likely to happen.
You would have more success asking specific questions

[ashen urchin]

@smoky quest yes I'm already happy that one of you guys responded to my message. Well it's not completely for free. I am looking to make friends with same interests and same level of python skils. And I am a poliglot in normal spoken languages. If anyone may make up their mind. Freel free to reach out to me. Welcome to read my intro and my portfolio on my discord channel. @smoky quest Have a nice day!

[paper sundial]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[plain zephyr]

Hey mate, I'm interested. I'm a beginner and know basics and would like to continue to learn to advanced topics.

[ashen urchin]

Hi! Raj! Nice to meet you! Great idea! Let's keep in touch!

[vapid plank]

i need some help with a python assignment? Is there any freelancer here maybe

[turbid bobcat]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[lilac bloom]

Is it 'normal' to start programming at 15 years of age ?

actually 14...

[spare sinew]

absolutely, its not early.

[dull fjord]

Hey. I want to become an ai engineer. Any advice for me

I have basic calculus level understanding of maths.
And am fresh out of secondary school.
And i might take cs in college

[turbid bobcat]

college

[turbid bobcat]

fairly common, I coded when I was that age - tho it's best to have someone teaching you

[mighty belfry]

Starting with MERN, the web developer, what is their worth in 2024?

[harsh river]

marn? did you mean MERN, as in the MERN stack?

[mighty belfry]

yes yes

[fringe sphinx]

You know those are four different things?

[mighty belfry]

yes

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, you're asking if MERN is a good stack nowadays?

[mighty belfry]

yes?

[fringe sphinx]

My take: The React part is solid: it's one of the most popular frameworks out there. E and N is quite common, and worth learning (but there are plenty of other choices for backends, including Python). The mongo part I'm not a huge fan of: you have plenty of database choices, and I rarely see a reason for Mongo.

[true harness]

i hate how lamp makes M mysql while mern is mongo

[turbid bobcat]

I've tailored my resume, wrote a short but thoughtful cover letter, time to apply and not get ghosted

[restive zenith]

I m learning python and dsa using python what and all skills should I learn for a better career i m a graduate not yet completed still 5 more months remaining

Practical answers needed

[lilac bloom]

yup...i have youtube and my elder sister

[fringe sphinx]

Projects is the key to becoming a competent software engineer. You have to be able to solve problems. Web apps (flask, django, etc) are a common project, but so are data problems (kaggle.com/learn). Games also teach valuable skills.

[fringe sphinx]

!kin is a list of project ideas

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[fringe sphinx]

If you want to be a more knowledgeable programmer: try to answer questions in #python-discussion and #1035199133436354600 . You'll learn something new every day.

[turbid bobcat]

im probly still get ghosted half the time tho, I'm aiming for 1 tailored application per day

[turbid bobcat]

chat gpt can also help you learn if used correctly

uhm, is it okay to apply to the same role if it's in a different location ? they seem to be the exact same and both locations look cool

I spent the last three days tailoring the application, would be nice if I could yield two applications from one

[lilac bloom]

nah for now i think this is enough...cuz i have just begun

[bleak spoke]

Is game dev a solid career path

[prime mulch]

so after knowing python...like can code for a simple calculator....where sholud i move next?

what should i learn

[peak halo]

try following along with a book or course that teaches you all the fundamental language features

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[white relic]

yes, apply to as many openings as you can.

if there's some kind of conflict that's for them to figure out before they extend an offer

[turbid bobcat]

Alright, I applied to both, thank you

[prime mulch]

Nah, like react or django?????

[peak halo]

if all you've done so far is make a simple calculator--which is still progress--you still have more basic python stuff to learn before you can really understand django. though you can try learning django while you learn the rest of the language features.

[prime mulch]

Nah i just used an example

[peak halo]

your question was what you should learn next. if you wanted project ideas, that's a different question.

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[prime mulch]

Yah like python alone can't any big projects so what should i learn next?

[peak halo]

I suggested that you follow a resource that teaches you the whole language, and learn things in the order that that resource presents them to you. You could also follow a variety of resources, and learn things in the order I recommend [here](#pedagogy message).

[lucid granite]

I’m 16 years old, I dunno anything about coding in general. Do you think it is the perfect time to start learning? I got recommended a book called “Automate the Boring Stuff with Python” by Sweigart. Do you think it is a good one to start with, cheers!

[pine sleet]

no better time to start than now

[lucid granite]

When did you start, how was it firstly looking to you?

[pine sleet]

about 4 or 5 years ago. not sure what you mean by "how was it firstly looking to you" though

[lucid granite]

I was trying to say how did you like it when you started, ever thought about quitting etc

[pine sleet]

i dont remember

but i don't think i thought of it as "quitting" because to "quit" something you'd have to have been dedicated/commited to it

it's hard to think of "quitting" when you just kinda.. do it whenever you want to

[lucid granite]

You are right

[silk fossil]

I am decently good at Python and I know programming concepts well enough to code in Java or C++ after some practice. Decent at SQL queries too. I have some personal projects with Flask and various 3rd party APIs but I am not entirely sure what to pursue. I want to get into data analytics and/or machine learning but every company seems to use a different tool. I guess what I am asking is, what should I learn next or what should be my focus? There are so many guides online but it's like too much information and too generalized to be benificial at all, career wise

[pine sleet]

if you're 16 i'm assuming it's not too much of a pressing matter that you learn programming. just find a project you think is interesting and work on it whenever you want to, it'll be hard to quit that way

[lucid granite]

Thank you mate

[pine sleet]

thats pretty much what i was doing when i was 16

[turbid bobcat]

keen interest in AI and proficient with Python, Rust and specialized Cuda kernels Frameworks

no way the job posting mentions everything I've been doing til now

no wait, by "specialized Cuda kernels Frameworks" they mean like pytorch

[whole flare]

I'd get into the habit of using tools like R, Power BI and Tableau if you want to go into data analytics.

[restive zenith]

@fringe sphinx thanks mate helps me alot

[silk fossil]

Mhm got it, what about projects? Should I create projects with R, Power BI and Tableau and publish them online or something like that, or just focus on learning them?

[true harness]

i was in a course, so i couldn't really quit if i wanted to. it might be a good idea to have some sort of "motivation" to not quit

[whole flare]

If you don't know how to use them, I'd advise you learn how to use them first and then produce projects and have them on GitHub or GitLab so that way you can have them on your resume and talk about them in potential interviews in the future.

[silk fossil]

Okay that sounds like a good idea, will do that. Thanks for the guidance

[lucid granite]

when did you start

[wheat hatch]

15-16 is a pretty common time to start learning programming, so yeah very good. Haven't read that book so I don't know if it's good or not, but generally I do prefer books for learning so I say go for it.

[lucid granite]

👍

[buoyant seal]

i did not start learning until university (as well as big portion of other people)
if we will exclude simplistic Pascal we learned during very short computer science lessons in school just to pass exames for this subject ^_^ And if we exclude some macrossing-scripting shenanigans.
Anything u will manage to learn before entering university for CS degree, will be a win.
With main importance probably on just practice and getting used to programming. Takes time for brain to get used to code reading and writing
In the beginning i barely was able to navgiate in 5-10 code lines in Pascal to implement simpliest algorithm like calculating factorial.
That changed later.

[lucid granite]

Thank you

[buoyant seal]

https://www.amazon.com/Code-Complete-Practical-Handbook-Construction/dp/0735619670
if u will be willing yourself to immerse more deeply into software development, consider eventually giving a read to this book.
Very interesting reading about majority of aspects regarding software development.
This book tells what we aim for during coding, what can be done to make things easier, what can be learnt next after that
This book also describes in detail approaches how to think in order to code, or how to debug problems.
It covers basically a lot of... beginner and not only challenges for coding

[lucid granite]

Did you read “Automate The Boring Stuff With Python”?

[buoyant seal]

nah. Not a fan of this series.
When i learn any new language, i get Head First book today https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/head-first-python/9781492051282/ Very brain friendly reading
Python i started with this one though (because i did not know about Head First at that time ) https://www.amazon.com/Introducing-Python-Modern-Computing-Packages/dp/1492051365

[wheat hatch]

Head first is an awesome book series, I used these books a lot when I was learning the ropes

[buoyant seal]

i still like to read them ^_^ when immersing into completely new language.

No point to make things in a hard way, when u got used to start doing things in an easy way

[true harness]

a long long time ago in a galaxy really really close by

[lucid granite]

Thank you

[kindred oyster]

!rules paid

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[analog sun]

Hello, your message has been removed due to violating the above rule

[gilded rune]

If you already know one lenguage well and know CS fundamentals, why would you start with a book? I would start by installing the language, playing around with it, stumble upon a few problems and then read the books. Otherwise, you miss the solutions that the book provides

[buoyant seal]

Because it is easier to read a beginner book, knowing what can be found in language
And then getting to practice ^_^ While knowing what can be googled / what can be looked in book and checked to exist
Then practicing, getting hang of the language
And then reading book for advanced stuff about the language to go deeper
And then again practicing

[buoyant seal]

Knowledge from one language is not very well transfering to another language
Each language has its own quirks, best practices to get hang of.
Like u should not code Python way in Golang for example.

Transferable knowledge is from generic software engineering core subjects. (Clean code, Unit testing, Code architecture, System Design and etc)
That is transferable
But not best practices specific to language and knowledge about its ecosystem
With books u can catch up to language specifics, best practices and ecosystem faster, as well as learning common pitifals to escape and getting better understanding how language works.

I don't have aim to just use language. I aim for deep usage of a language to have easy time using the language at a comfortable level and solving... any problem with this specific language. I aim each language to be usable for my career, i don't need just scraps.

[gilded rune]

There is a difference between Data Science, Data Analytics and Data Engineering!

@whole flare suggested powerBI, R and Tableau, but I don't fully agree - let me elaborate.

I did work like all 3 above and currently a Quant at a $160b+ Hedge Fund.

Data Science - That usually targets modelling the problem - Machine Learning and Statistics are quite popular. Nowadays, Python, Pandas, Numpy and the related ML Python libs are by far the most popular!

Data Engineer - It solves mostly Data and Data related problems - setting up ETL processes, database management, data discovery, etc. Lots of Python, SQL and Data Tools like snowflake, datalake, etc. But focus on the basics

Data Analytics - Post analysis - that's where you'd use PowerBI to create beautiful (often not so useful and/or deep - no ML etc) reports, some SQL to query data, rarely any coding, unless you're in a fancy place asking for Python charts..

[gilded rune]

"Knowledge from one language is not very well transfering to another language" - What languages do you know?

[buoyant seal]

in university i used C,C++,C#, Assemble and other stuff, but all of it faded away due to lack of usage ^_^
Professionally i learned Python and Golang as fully fledged languages, plus knowing infra languages like Docker, Ansible, Terraform, Kubernetes, AWS specific stuff. Those are my languages i can use in every day life to solve any problem in a quality way with efficient amount of time
At some point for half of year used Javascript... but not really dived deeply (as did not touch Typescript) and not desiring to extend this knowledge 🤔 going to fade away probably.
Currently diving into Java.

[wheat hatch]

I'll give a personal example: I work a lot in an old C variant. A few years ago I started going into C++ at work so I bought a few books that specifically described how C++ did things differently than C. I did this because the consequences of hitting landmines at work can be pretty severe.

[gilded rune]

So, when you started Java, you had 0 idea what it is? You had no idea of what a class, OOP, interpreter, compiler, etc is and you had to learn all of it from scratch?

Or you had to code 2 weeks for 4-5hours a day and learn a few differences to C and Python and basically know 85%+ of what it is?

[buoyant seal]

when i started Java

1. I had zero knowledge about existing common std libraries
2. i have zero knowledge how its importing works and i can structure libraries
3. I had.. only vague understanding how Java handles memory stuff and how i can allocate memory more efficiently in Java
4. i had no knowledge regarding common data structures existing in java, how to create them and use them.
5. i had no knowledge about its exception handling and how i can create custom ones
6. I did not know it had cool serializing feature to save and load objects as it is without jsoning ^_^
7. i did not know how concurrency is usable in java

The list is extendable, with reading a book i know what exists and i know what to read to seek further.

I can get quickly familiar with a new language ^_^ consuming in short time knowledge in higher amount than if i was finding it on my own during trying attemps

after than in practice, i convert book knowledge faster into skills and getting ahead of people that learn with just practice

the best is learning with combination of practice and books ^_^, in order to go for... known direction, instead of aiming... without target
Also... i can't afford spending time learning without aim. Life is short, i prefer to get hang of stuff quicker. It takes devastating amount of time learning things to deep level as it is even with all helping boosts.

[gilded rune]

That's what I agree on. For me, getting a day or 2 or 3 trying to play around and running hello world, trying the regular things you do in other languages, etc, is quite helpful

[turbid bobcat]

I literally could not learn a programming language from a book, what sort of mental torture is that >.>

I think that at most I'll go through the documentation when I'm curious about the syntax. Pretty sure I read the entire docker compose file specification.

But picking a new language from a book would require an enormous amount of discipline from me. The other day I picked up a py book, and really there was nothing there I hadn't at least seen before.

[smoky quest]

I would encourage you to embrace reading. That will be a great differentiator and positive contributor to your career and skills

[turbid bobcat]

Books about a particular language are very boring and the knowledge can 100% be picked up on the go

[smoky quest]

"I can drive from NY to Los Angeles without a map or gps. I can pick things up as I go".
Sure, but not very effective

plus there is the whole problem of things you don't know you don't know

[turbid bobcat]

It actually is more effective, you don't need to know everything to solve a particular problem, you can learn what you need for it and solve it.

[smoky quest]

you don't read books to solve a particular problem.

[wheat hatch]

I want to add here that if you do architectural work it's absolutely fundamental to have a good understanding of the underlying systems before you start designing.

[turbid bobcat]

And I don't need to know an entire language in one go.

[wheat hatch]

Books are priceless for that

[turbid bobcat]

Documentation is better

[smoky quest]

it depends on your goal.
Reading a book on the language will definitely be faster and more effective overall comparing to YOLO

Also to be clear, no one is advocating for you not doing anything until you read the book end to end. It's normal to stop here and there to put the new knowledge in practice

[wheat hatch]

I think we are talking about different levels of problems here. When you do design work you rarely care about the stuff that's in the documentation, that's for the developers to care about. You care about system aspects, not what parameters different functions accept.

[turbid bobcat]

I need to know the basics in order to start building, as I need to do more complicated stuff, I educate myself. I don't think it makes sense to sit down and study an entire book. Most people don't need metaclasses for example. I wanna know what I need to know and what I'm curious about.

[smoky quest]

you do you.
But again, that's a silly argument

[turbid bobcat]

I don't see how it is silly to be strategic about your learning.

First thing you learn is that a book alone doesn't teach you anything, you need practice.

[smoky quest]

You are advocating for a bad strategy. That's the problem.
But I don't have time to argue further at this time. So just take it as my feedback and do what makes sense for yourself

[regal axle]

This works for getting started on a topic / tech / language. But eventually you will need to dig deeper into the mechanics.
And I think you agree with this? It sounds like an argument about semantics.

[turbid bobcat]

Sure, however, I strongly feel the same about yours.

[turbid bobcat]

At that point I'm reading docs, not the book

[regal axle]

Sure. Books are a resource. They can be an effective resource because some docs suck. But some books suck. So it all depends.

[turbid bobcat]

Sure, using a book as a reference material makes sense. Sitting down and studying it in one go, unless it is for your own intellectual enjoyment, doesn't sound very effective in terms of time usage.

[summer roost]

That seems like a straw man

[deft pelican]

Books have one clear advantage: they can be read outside in the summer 😎

[summer roost]

No one has been advocating for reading a book "in one go", or reading a book instead of practicing writing code

[turbid bobcat]

Sure.

[summer roost]

... so you're arguing against a thing that no one is arguing for

[turbid bobcat]

Like, the way I used books in college was studying them in one go. So I may have misinterpreted what was said

[plain mulch]

I am confused between 2 roadmaps and which should I choose sde path or cybersecurity both interest me what factors did you guys consider before choosing a domain

[regal axle]

Most people don’t read books in one go. Much like you probably won’t read docs in one go. Any point against books can be said against docs. They suffer from similar problems and excel based on who wrote it. All that is really being said, is that sometimes you never know you didn’t know an important thing. And just pure “wing it” does a bad job exposing those holes in your knowledge.

[turbid bobcat]

Yes that was what I was acknowledging

[regal axle]

Exploration is the most important thing. And asking people in the space you want to explore, about what they do. You gotta try some of the surface level stuff and see what you like or don’t like. There isn’t an easy answer here. But just be willing to try both and decide based on that. As time goes on, the route to take naturally becomes more and more clear.

[summer roost]

Docs are most often written as a reference, books are written as an ordered introduction that introduces new concepts as they're needed or likely to be useful. Sure, there are bad books, but a good book is a much better way to learn a language than good reference documentation

[regal axle]

The best docs are the ones that are both a reference and an ordered introduction 😄

[turbid bobcat]

I still much rather just watch a video that introduces me to the concepts.

Syntax is pretty simple to learn anyway

[regal axle]

The unicorn (or more accurate to say that it will quickly become out of sync and degrade. So yea, unicorn)

[summer roost]

Trying to learn a language from a video sounds like an absolute nightmare to me. 🤷‍♀️
I find videos moderately useful for introducing me to a concept or tool I've never heard of, but totally useless for learning anything much deeper than just its existence

[deft pelican]

What is sde?

[turbid bobcat]

I like it because it's not static text and I can do 2x speed to watch it quickly

[deft pelican]

I mean, the text needs to have a clear purpose to be good. https://documentation.divio.com/#about-the-system

[turbid bobcat]

• watch video to learn the basics
• build stuff
• build more complicated stuff
• check docs as you go
• build even more complicated stuff

[summer roost]

I can read much faster than I can listen and absorb, and I can ctrl-f in text

[plain mulch]

considering the ML/AI and as a fresher I don't see any future for myself there or is that a wrong opinion to have

[deft pelican]

I have to agree, videos are usually awful. Some gems exists, mostly talks from conferences. A "how to" in video format is never the right pace.

[plain mulch]

software development

[deft pelican]

Pick the most interesting courses in school (if you have the oopurtunity). I got into hw dev, and it's really fun 🙂

There should be junior positions in most fields I believe

[summer roost]

Considering ML/AI in what way?

[turbid bobcat]

I'm not advocating that you learn my way.

I'm just saying, I have fun doing it the way I do it and I'm not gonna change it cuz I know I learn a lot and I do it fast. And even if not, and that means everyone else will be ahead of me, so be it. I prefer having fun, as long as that doesn't reflect negatively on my day job, which I doubt it will given that I'm already proficient with most of my tools

[plain mulch]

the way its progressing won't web dev become just prompt engineering

[summer roost]

No, I can't imagine any way that could ever happen.

Language models might allow some people to do jobs that previously required skilled labor by themselves, but I find it very unlikely that they're anywhere close to being able to replace skilled laborers en masse

Probabilistic text generation is a very long way from expertise

[regal axle]

This is a flawed way of thinking. And I could probably spend an hour going into why that’s the case. But to keep it really short, AI tools will not replace engineers. Maybe it will replace a few random jobs. But it will not have a negative impact on the industry as a whole. And even if it somehow was that disruptive, big companies are super slow to move. It will take them many years to implement these things.

To give you an idea about why worst case (all jobs are replaced) is not feasible: I have a friend who works at a large bank; they have zero modern tools on his team. There is no CI/CD, no reviews, no testing, no nothing. Do you really think they will just magically shove in some AI tool? Doubt it.

[turbid bobcat]

I don't think it will replace any jobs. It's already hard to keep normal software safe. Language models can be prompt bombed.

Imagine sending an email to someone with an email box managed by an LLM, and that LLM sends me back their entire email box

[pine sleet]

society will always have a need for highly educated and intelligent individuals
ai will not change that short term
keep grinding ✊

[buoyant seal]

I literally could not learn a programming language from a book, what sort of mental torture is that >.>

i consumed books in thousands amount in my life. Reading is book for me same as... breathing. It is normal for me to wake up with book, get to sleep with book, and reading book during middle a night.
I don't just read book... i Consume it, i Eat it as a hungry man, I Drink it as a man in a desert.

I still much rather just watch a video that introduces me to the concepts.

well, i can't save my life by learning anyting from video.
Too close to lectures from universities in which i got dissapointed already during university 😅
Except videos are usually worse by having a lot more water.
2 hours listening for weak amount of material, that i can read in more comprehensive amount as a single book chapter. ^_^

TLDR, i know for sure i can learn by books ^_^, and i know for sure videos i can watch only for entertainment

[turbid bobcat]

I've read many books, just wouldn't be able to read the ones about syntax or exclusively about a single language

Because I find them boring. I also find fictional books boring. So I don't read them too. I like books about the sciences, or mathematics

[buoyant seal]

Ergh, one of reasons i like Head First books the best, they are fun and worthy to read despite how much it is beginner material.
They are really brain friendly and fun! they bring joy to new language ^_^. And that makes easy to remember their material.
I still remember Head First Html CSS book like i was reading it yesterday (i did read it 2-3 years ago)

I can understand your thinking if grabbing some super thick boring language books having thousands of pages and many tomes just to read one for some specific language.
Never really got into reading books like that too (Hello Python Lutz book). Although i never tried too.

I choose my books carefully with reviews from Amazon and accounting for amount of editions and pages.
I can be checking book navigation before chosing to read it too.

[violet agate]

thats alot of words

[turbid bobcat]

I feel like it's the other way around for me. I need the book to be challenging and hard to penetrate, so I can struggle and not feel bored.

But ofc, without exaggerating, I remember trying to read advanced works by philosophers (which is stuff outside my expertise) and after some paragraphs I'd completely fail to understand any kind of context. So like there's a balance I guess.

[buoyant seal]

Ergh, i read beginner books only in beginning. As I go deeper into language/technology, i can read more advanced stuff.
Although if we read about core software engineering disciplines, each one is full of unique super material challenging to comprehend and link with all your other experience.
Feel free to read book like Fundamentals of Software Architecture 😅
Kind of easy to comprehend, yet.. amount of to think about during its reading is very high

[turbid bobcat]

And I suppose that with programming, that balance is easier to achieve if I'm in the middle of it, trying to figure stuff out.

[turbid bobcat]

No that book certainly looks more interesting than a book about java or python. Because presumably it contains things I can't squeeze out from the docs or it would take a long time to get from just experience

[buoyant seal]

https://www.amazon.com/Code-Complete-Practical-Handbook-Construction/dp/0735619670
Code Complete is easy to read book too...
...yet amount of its material to comrehend... is tremendous. more than 34+ of chapters each of unique material about software development
I was reading it not an one month 🙈 Me who reads books with very high speed.
It was just too much to comprehend

Or system analysis and design, got me stuck for some time too
https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Analysis-Design-Alan-Dennis-ebook/dp/B09P3CFW8X

[buoyant seal]

Hopefully you already read Unit testing books ^_^
https://www.amazon.com/Unit-Testing-Principles-Practices-Patterns/dp/1617296279
https://www.amazon.com/Test-Driven-Development-Kent-Beck/dp/0321146530
This material u can not get from docs for sure

[turbid bobcat]

Sure, these look interesting

[turbid bobcat]

It's in my reading list yes ~_~

Will eventually cycle back from the stuff I'm doing now to finally read on these kinds of subjects

[deft pelican]

So we gonna read a book at my job, any suggestions? I've found 2 so far

Accelerate

And the other one I don't remember 😅 might have been "how big things get done"

[slate sapphire]

guys what is more valued in software development to employers, a college/university course or an apprenticeship

[true lion]

I’m not sure 😅 honestly all I’ve been doing is stocking up my knowledge on software engineering and programs that help to develop it. For university I’m hoping however that my application will be checked for my works instead of my knowledge 😄 then again I’m not sure but I suggest first researching your selected university/college course, employer likes and dislikes, and what skills you would need for an apprenticeship you are looking to achieve. Other than that there are better people out there than me who know more about how to prepare for the future, like @smoky quest for instance, since they gave me some good advice to keep my head up and continue moving forward on my own development journey! 😄👍

[fringe sphinx]

Course or Degree?

[slate sapphire]

wdym

[fringe sphinx]

You said a college course. A course is a single class: are you asking whether a single class is helpful, or whether a 4 year degree is?

Might just be a translation issue, which is why I'm asking

[slate sapphire]

i’m confused i think our education systems are different lmao

[fringe sphinx]

What country?

[slate sapphire]

scotland

[fringe sphinx]

All I know about scotland I learned from Star Trek.

[slate sapphire]

what did you learn

[fringe sphinx]

You cannot change the laws of physics.

[slate sapphire]

huh

[fringe sphinx]

!cban 851522457109397524

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @rapid bane permanently.

[slate sapphire]

what he do

[fringe sphinx]

https://youtu.be/0xD9qEdHFIE?t=24

[slate sapphire]

i’ve never seen a minute of star trek in my life

[fringe sphinx]

Now you have. You gotta at least know about Scotty.

[hexed hill]

I have an idea for an ai powered mobile game , anyone interested to hear it?

[slate sapphire]

ik spock bc of young sheldon but that’s it😭

[peak halo]

@vapid jay this is not a meme server; your message was removed

[wild monolith]

Hey does anyone have a discord server link for devs in Austin Texas? I might be moving there soon and want to connect with the larger dev community

[fleet reef]

Not exactly "dev" but the only server I'm in that has regional channels is the PowerShell one, and they do actually have an Austin channel: https://discord.gg/powershell

[placid haven]

Hello guys
I have free Udemy courses and it's available on a WhatsApp group
Am I allowed to drop the link for you guys?
It will help well for programming courses and all that

[wild monolith]

Thank you!!

[pine sleet]

Hope you like it there! I've been there a couple times and it's a nice city

[wild monolith]

Yeah I am between two offers for two new grad rotational programs. One is Ford (detriot as starter location) and one is a smaller biotech/pharmaceutical company (Austin as the starter location) I'm from the Bay Area born and raised and people keep saying good things about Austin. I want a city with a good tech scene and I've head Austin has a good one
It'll be my first time going tbh when I move there lol

[fringe sphinx]

Not to be that guy, but, Austin vs Detroit? That's not a hard call.

no offense to any detroiters.

[pine sleet]

Austin is going to be the closest to bay area

in terms of tech scene

[fringe sphinx]

I'm also a big fan of good weather. And bbq.

[wild monolith]

I AGREE but my second rotation with Ford could have me back in the Bay by December whereas with the other one, it is more up in the air. I could end up in Jersey vs Austin. So if I can for sure have my start location be Austin I'm picking that

[wild monolith]

love bbq. Do you have any Austin recommendations?

[fringe sphinx]

I'm not the one to ask... but, if you want to stand in line for a few hours, Franklin Bbq is a must-visit.

[wild monolith]

I'll be new a line is a good place to make friends

[fringe sphinx]

lol, for real. I stood in line at a place run by someone who used to work at Franklin... I think it was like a 2 hour line, and definitely a place to make new friends (you could leave the line to go to the bar).

[wild monolith]

True who knows I've heard Austin has a good young professional presence so I'd be very excited for that too!

[smoky quest]

it does, but terrible traffic if you have to get in/out of downtown

[wild monolith]

Bring it on!!!!! (I deeply need to start working soon)

[teal pasture]

hey

[atomic orbit]

hi

[safe locust]

can ayone tell me in my experience section of my resume shal i put my hacktoberfest thing as an open source contribution ??

[safe locust]

like right now its experience and now can i change it to
this ?

[safe locust]

**uff someone please tell yarr **

[harsh river]

have some patience

[safe locust]

already doing it.

[turbid bobcat]

I believe internships go into work experience, but clearly marked as internships

open source contributions can go into the projects section, but ig be mindful of the way you present it, if you did a micro PR to correct some grammar mistake, it's not really worth it to dedicate a ton of space to it right, but if you contributed with an entire project then it's a whole project entry in the section

[warm thicket]

Anyone in UK seeing market is really quiet? I'm applying to things and hearing nothing back

[rancid rune]

I have seen people, talking about Django, on Reddit.
I have seen them , complaining about Django. I wonder if it's safe to continue learning Django or not ?
Is Django still valuable?

[fringe sphinx]

It's discussed often in #web-development

[pine sleet]

People on Reddit complain more than anything. Django is still valuable

[near ocean]

it should be a pin to not read reddit for career advice

[vapid jay]

“Hello everyone! I’m interested in becoming a data scientist, but I’m starting from scratch with zero knowledge and skills. Could anyone kindly guide me on where to begin or recommend resources for beginners? Any advice would be great to me”

[near ocean]

the easiest way would be to get a relevant degree
statistics, computer science, mathematics, etc

[vapid jay]

i am pursuing b.tech in data science. but its a tier 3 college. so need guiedance .

[fringe sphinx]

Where to start? Take the most advanced math courses you can, and learn to program.

[vapid jay]

no not about that. about how can i learn particular things to become data scienctist.

[fringe sphinx]

kaggle.com/learn is one place to start.

[vapid jay]

ok . thank you @fringe sphinx

[smoky quest]

Somethings in mind:

• The people who complain the most are the most vocal ones
• Glassdoor is quite outdated
• I would look at them holistically to look at trends rather than data points

Sometimes, it's totally valid though

[smoky quest]

you can also ask about it during the interview

[wild monolith]

Hey as a new grad how concerned should I be about layoffs? I’ve often heard we are the first to go but idk if it’s all hype or not

[deft herald]

As a new grad, you should be more concerned about finding a job than about layoffs. Do you already have a job?

[wild monolith]

I have two offers right now. Potentially two more and one of the two I haven’t secured is the one I REALLY want

I have a few minutes to kill so I figured why not ask the CS community you know lol

[deft herald]

And you're not necessarily the first to go. They have to somewhat distribute the layoffs across ranks to avoid lawsuits.

Layoffs should be the least of your worries right now 🙂

[wild monolith]

Kk thanks for the knowledge I appreciate it 🙂

[fringe sphinx]

It's like the weather: no matter what people say, you can't predict it without any practical degree of certainty

(Yes, I think meteorologists should stick to meteors)

[safe locust]

mates can anyone tell me if i have two experiences (internships) and **some open source contribution (like hacktoberfest, google Ai croud source) ** so can i rename my experience section in my resume to Internships and open source contributions.

actually brother i did not understand it.

yes and i wanna include my open source contrubutions :-
hacktoberfest and crowd source.

[smoky quest]

It's part of doing your own research. You can also bring up questions about the recent issues they have been facing, what do they see as the challenges they want to address in the next 3-6-12 months, what is the criteria for success for the candidate and make them say it was a good hire, etc.

In the end, you are interviewing them as much as they are interviewing you

[safe locust]

Hacktoberfest just got 4 merged pr from github in 2021
and what about that crowd source. ?

actually i seen this internship and open cource thing into a resume which got selected for step internship (google)

nope i wasn't i just contributed to someones else and they accepted that.

[wheat hatch]

Layoffs hit different industries differently. For example during rona the automotive sector was hit hella hard because there were a lot of car factories in the areas that got shut down early in the pandemic. I remember both Volvo and Scania (the two biggest auto manufacturers here) starting layoffs within half a year of shit hitting the fan. I work in telecom and we didn't start to feel the effects until about a year later.

So if being laid off worries you a lot then my advice is to find an industry that you like working in where the projects are long

[safe locust]

nothing else i want i just wanna showcase my contribution things.

liek leave hacktoberfest (will keep that in achievments) what about that crowd source thing (contributor)? its not a project right we are just selecting our images as per our choice.

let it be i can put that in achievments.
but this google one idk

check that @turbid bobcat

https://crowdsource.google.com/

Dc

the data was already there like they gave us some image liek cat we need to say yes/no like is this a cat.

however it can be counted as contributor i seen that on their resume by which they got selected. for step internship

1 thing i can do i can put that in my achievments thing ? like for flexing my points ? same with salesforce Trailhead ?

fine np leave that.

[wheat hatch]

I'm gonna be honest here and say that I have never ever looked at a possible recruit's points in some open source contribution project that I know nothing about.

1. I don't know how they are graded and I don't have time to look it up
2. I don't know the weight behind the organization that hands the points out, they might as well be loyalty points at mcdonalds for all I know.

All in all this is noise in your resume, don't include it.

[safe locust]

thinking for same so hm leaving that.

[safe locust]

can you share your resume into dm

[fringe sphinx]

There's some nuance there; if it's a contribution to some small/private/whatever project, I do use it as a conversation starter- tell me more about project/your role/PR process, etc

I'd rather see someone with -some-contributions because I'm hoping they'll have some broader understanding of engineering process

[wheat hatch]

Absolutely, but that's during the interview. I don't recommend adding in on the resume unless as backprop said you are a maintainer and it's relevant for the job.

Mainly because it lowers the signal to noise ratio

[fringe sphinx]

Just depends on how much other 'signal' they have, I'd argue. A lot of folks don't have much.

[wheat hatch]

Sure, I agree with that. More noise doesn't mean higher signal though.

Case in point I once read a 25 page resume. Guy was hella experienced but the noise level was so high he even figured it was a good idea to include a table of contents. He didn't get the job.

[safe locust]

got you.

[fringe sphinx]

Oh wait, im talking about 1 pagers. Beyond that, I'm noping

[wheat hatch]

Yeah, same here. Hence why I said lower noise

[fringe sphinx]

The one time in past 10 years I needed a resume I managed a one pager.

Was for a FAANG trying to acquihire my team, but still needed resumes.

Tbh, it's probably been 20+ years.

Yah, it has.

[celest scroll]

25?!?!?!? I’d be too lazy to read my own 25 page resume let alone someone else’s 🤣

[wheat hatch]

Yep, same here, he was rejected because we had to search for his current employment in the resume. Was impossible to find anything in that mess of a book.

[fringe sphinx]

I had the good fortune of working for a startup that went big and subsequently imploded... instant network that I've milked for many years.

[celest scroll]

Any general advice for a wanna-be data scientist due to graduate in 2026 BillyBob?

[fringe sphinx]

I'm not directly in DS (I'm more of a jack of all trades who focuses on DE) but my life advice is- diversify your learning. Conference talks, academic papers, university education, hands on, networking/social, reading... and not just in your specialty but adjacent topics. You don't have to grind or do it all at once, just intentionally choose a new medium & topic on a regular basis. And follow the Feynman method.

Chance favors the prepared mind - l Pasteur

[celest scroll]

Okay gotcha - thank you! I’m currently on placement at a company called Siemens for digitalisation and automation. I’m trying to lay solid foundations in statistics and machine learning etc. And hopefully I’ll put together a couple good projects and have a good crack at some kaggle competitions

[fringe sphinx]

Note that my startup experience was a little exceptional... it was one of those unicorn -> spectacular implosion events.

I equally enjoyed working at a big company, tbh. Engineering always comes down to small teams. Theres different tradeoffs, but a good team is a good team.

[smoky quest]

That type of experience is useful as it shows you what's the right way to do things.
However people have to realize that operating at a google scale doesn't work for a 20 people scrappy startup. And so they have to adapt them and use the best tool for the job.

Startups successfully use OKRs though

Note that the opposite is also true. Folks coming from startups can have a hard time adjusting to a large company by trying to blindly apply what worked in a 20 people company to a 20k people company.

I guarantee you that neither jira nor OKRs slowed them down.
It's like saying using python or git slowed them down

[near ocean]

They're really leaning hard into the greek mythology metaphors

[smoky quest]

A product without people criticizing it is not really a successful product

[near ocean]

success doesnt mean its any good

it just means others dont exist or arent better

[smoky quest]

Reading that message, it sounds like a classic case of a CEO not scaling.
You don't lead a 1000 people company the same way you lead a 100 people company and the same for a 10 people company

It's just different jobs with different skills and expectations

So what was making you great in X may not necessarily translate to Y

[paper sundial]

So, I'm in quite a pickle and don't really know what to do. As some of you may know, I'm currently in the journey of learning Python using Python Crash Course (currently on Ch. 4) and thoroughly enjoy it.

However in the coming months, approx. in 3-5 months, I'll begin an intensive apprenticeship lasing anywhere from 6-24 months, and I must pick one. I have multiple choices:

• Software Developer
• Systems-&-Networks Engineer
• Data Engineer-&-Artificial Intelligence
• Application's Developer

Difference between Software Dev. and Applications Dev. is that Applications Dev. covers everything Software Dev. does + more & more in-depth due to lasting 24 months while Software Dev., and every other one, lasts 6.

My issue at hand is that none of these, bar the Data Engineer & AI, cover Python. And I like Python and feel like I'd not only waste all progress I made learning it, but also compromise my learning. So the obvious choice would be to pick the Data Engineering & AI, right?

Well, I question whether 6 months would prepare me for a job, even an entry level job in the field. It just seems too short of a period, and the things they cover also seem superficial. Or even if it's good, I feel like I'd be going in underprepared, since it should, as far as I know, involve advanced mathematics and CS concepts that I lack as of now, and I don't want to bite off more than I can chew.

So I'm unsure which to pick, but I want one that would land me a job (I live in Europe). I'm also not really interested in Systems-&-Networks Engineering, but if it's good I might consider it.

Overall I don't really want to bind myself down w/a 24 month apprenticeship either, despite it realistically having the greatest odds of landing me a job, because I'm also self-preparing myself for University and thus would have most of my time eaten up by the apprenticeship delaying me for at least 2 years, but I might compromise if the rest have 0 chance of landing me a job.

[paper sundial]

Here are the things they cover:

Software Developer:
Web Technologies:

• HTML, CSS, Bootstrap, Javascript, NodeJS with MySQL, Express, VueJS
  Java:
• Spring Boot, Spring Security, REST, JPA & Hibernate, JUnit
  Databases:
• MySQL, MariaDB, basics SQL, ER diagrams, database modeling
  Project Management:
• GitLab and other collaboration models, process models (waterfall, agile), SCRUM

Systems-&-Networks Engineer:

• Ports and protocols
• Firewalls - Networks, DHCP
• Raspberry
• VPN, virtualization
• GNS3 operating systems (Windows, Linux)
• Active Directory
• IT security, sniffer
• DNS server configuration (Windows Server 2019 and BIND9)
• NTFS rights: basics and ownership
• and much more.

Data Engineer-&-AI:

• Software development with Python
• Databases and data modeling
• Database queries with SQL
• Data analysis and data visualization
• ETL processes and data integration
• Big data frameworks
• Streaming data processing
• Artificial intelligence and machine learning
• Project work

Applications Dev.:

• Applied Mathematics
• Data technology and system management
• Basics of computer science
• IT security and operational security
• Programming and software engineering
• Quality and project management
• Web development
• Business and Management
• Mobile applications
• Communication and presentation techniques
• Databases and information systems
• IT law
• Operating systems
• Soft skills, application training and much more.

This is all I know about them as of now.

[paper sundial]

I'm personally leaning towards the Software Dev. or Data Engineer due to lasting only 6 months (low binding & include Python), though if they underprepare for even entry-level jobs in the field I'll have to reconsider.

Any advice? And yes, I do also want to do an apprenticeship, but must too.

[smoky quest]

Since you are still in school, let's use that as an example.

• Case A: you want to organize a learning group with your 4 friends as you are good at python and want to be paid for it. You can easily organize a group on whatsapp to organize a time and place
• Case B: the previous case was super successful and your friends were all happy with your services. So now you want to scale that and increase the number of students to a class room. So great, you can rent out a conference room somewhere. But need to amp up a bit more the classes since now you have to deal with 2-3x the number of students and you start having to deal with parents. That said, you still have time for 1-1 with specific students who struggle
• Case C: you are still successful. Now you want to expand to multiple class rooms. That means renting out a bigger place with multiple room and hiring teachers. You now have a bunch of new problems like the maintenance of the facilities, hiring teachers and figuring out what is a good teacher. And on top of that, teachers are starting to ask you what it means to be a senior teacher? So now you have to define a career ladder for them. And since you have multiple classrooms, you have to train teachers so that all the pupils have a consistent and awesome experience, which is also quite difficult on its own. And a bunch of new problems on top but that I am too lazy to type as it's already quite a long message

But by the time you reach case C, you ain't teaching anymore and the job is completely different from when you started in case A

let's pretend

[whole flare]

[smoky quest]

Step A: Get fat
Step B: Hire a doctor who will tell you to exercise and eat healthy to loose weight
Stop C: Continue to eat unhealthy and not exercising and fire the doctor because you don't like the answer

Given how he mentioned he had to step in so many things, I would argue he did not give them the space to act

so probably micromanaged a lot of things his way, didn't understand why the teams didn't scale and then fired people under him

[fringe sphinx]

All of those sound pretty good to me. Lots of developers know and work in multiple languages: don't be afraid of it: what you know will be transferrable.

[smoky quest]

Sure. Each one will have a different take.
That said, when you blame your tools, it's not a good look

A CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation. Foregoing that route means a path with a lot more pain and less opportunities and compensation

[paper sundial]

I’m just afraid of falling into the trap of trying to learn everything and not “mastering” one thing first.

But of the four which would you choose?

[fringe sphinx]

I don't understand their split but Applications Developer seems to map closer to a CS and standard SWE skill set

[mortal wedge]

Can someone help settle an argument I'm having with someone?

Is it normal and expected to have a director of software engineering at a company know absolutely nothing about software or engineering?

[paper sundial]

Me neither.

And fair enough. What about the 6 month ones? I’d rather do 6 months then immediately transition into a job, even entry level, and study on the side you know

[paper sundial]

Don’t think so. It’s generally expected they have some relevant knowledge but if they know nothing but sales they’re probably not ideal to direct the tech department

[mortal wedge]

I'm having an issue where the junior member on my team speaks very confidently and even if it flies against years of experience I have, we follow his plan instead of mine and then I'm being blamed for "letting" us follow his plan. The person I'm arguing with is saying "This is the same exact thing at every company and business"

[fringe sphinx]

I dony think you can go wrong with either plan, more experience is always a good thing: 6 months is pretty short.

[fringe sphinx]

At director level, I'd expect them to be quite hands on and knowledgeable

[mortal wedge]

Basically, I'm frustrated at my job and want to quit, but they're trying to convince me that it would be the same at any company I'd work with and I either need to keep working here or change myself

[fringe sphinx]

At vp level, often not... the job becomes more about people/etc

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, that's fair and makes sense.

[paper sundial]

The 6 months is equivalent to 1 year on the same level but not intensive apprenticeship.

I’m pretty indecisive though, you think DE & AI would he better since it follows Python?

[fringe sphinx]

This is a common issue in workplaces: assertive people vs more reserved people.

[fringe sphinx]

I do t think I'd pick it -because- it follows Python. Pick it for other reasons but not that.

Leads often don't 'call the shots'. They might be there for a tie breaker, or to relay messages from mgmt, but there's many decisions made at an individual or pair of engineer level

[paper sundial]

I mean I’m also interested in AI in general, and Data Science/Engineer jobs seem less volatile than straight software developer ones as far as I know

[fringe sphinx]

I generally hope that two engineers can work something out, but I've known many cases where personality (or sometimes cultures) clashes

[near ocean]

me trying to say no to every stupid feature suggested and my senior happily agreeing to it

[mystic violet]

aaaand this is exactly why i practice these scenarios before i even encounter them, it feels good when you get the upper hand for once

[smoky quest]

how does that relate to the director?

[mortal wedge]

I don't know. They're following his plan because he's a yes man and the guy who was leading the team at the time had no experience to draw from and this guy was a confident yes man and so they listened to him first.

Afterwards when everything went wrong, even though I said it was an issue at the time, they are blaming me because I'm the more experienced person. I think the true issue is that THEY don't want to accept blame for listening to the junior instead of the senior, so they try to pin it on me instead

[mortal wedge]

Well, the director at the time didn't know enough about software engineering to be able to tell that the junior's ideas were terrible. He also tries to throw other people under the bus to protect/lift himself up. So he just shifted the blame to me and there wouldn't be aany blame to shift if he had the expertise to realize that erasing all our backups was a bad idea

And this is all making me want to quit, but I'm also being told this is the way it is at every company and I need to suck it up and deal with it

[mystic violet]

Why not do the same thing back?

[mortal wedge]

Yeah. The problem is he's REALLY well liked and perceived at the company. If I go up against him, even with plenty of proof, I will lose.

[mystic violet]

not a surprise tbh

[mortal wedge]

Yup, And I'm really hoping this isn't a regular thing

[mystic violet]

i love these types of people: an asshole to you, but somehow liked by everyone else

[mortal wedge]

Some people are just really charismatic/good bullshitters I guess

I always try to be very precise and honest

[normal burrow]

#career-advice message any other ways i can earn money?

[smoky quest]

at the end of the day, it comes down if you felt heard or not.
There is value in disagree and commit, but it should also include the part where you are empowered to raise your opinion so that it is heard.

That said, a director may have multiple dozens of reports and will not be able to realistically have deep dives in everything, even if they are hyper technical. That's why he has managers and leads/staffs to rely on. Plus a department may include many different skills.

[mystic violet]

very true

[smoky quest]

I would also frame it in terms of DACI/RACI. Who was the driver? Who was the person accountable?
Were you even empowered to make a decision?

[mystic violet]

Tbh I thought in a professional environment, things like this wouldnt happen. But humans be humans ig

[smoky quest]

am an asshole to everyone

[normal burrow]

because it is school holidays, and school isnt really an option now.

[mortal wedge]

Oh, no. I was ignored and overruled. Just getting blamed for it anyway.

[fleet reef]

My boss does this to me too
TL;DR, my boss said "salesperson NEEDS to take care of it himSELF", so I sent him daily emails for a week, didn't get a single response, and then I get a email from my boss saying "why isn't this done?? Why aren't you asking for what you need?? What do YOU need to do to get this moving??"
I went to his office and said "I really don't appreciate being blamed for this"
To which he said "I'm not blaming you, that's just the way I talk" then proceeded to make me do all the work, never talked to my coworker, and the exact same thing happened the next week

[smoky quest]

then you are just being gaslight and that's not industry standard

[mortal wedge]

Thank you

[mystic violet]

I agree with recursive, when you can, find another place

[smoky quest]

the person who makes the decision is the accountable one. You can't have it both way and be the one making decision while getting none of the blame. That's the job of the ceo

[mystic violet]

Your mental health is gonna sink if you stay there

[fleet reef]

Don't even try man, they're not going to suddenly start caring about what you have to say
I know, I've been trying for years, and my mental health has suffered greatly

[near ocean]

maybe its a one off, we dont know
forgive but dont forget kind of response

[mortal wedge]

I am working for a small company and office politics are killing me

That being said, I don't have a lot of hope for the company's long term longevity.

50 or less employees, probably?

[fleet reef]

wat

[near ocean]

thats not a company, thats barely a crowd

[mortal wedge]

sounds like if just one person hates another half the office is now embroiled in office politics

[fleet reef]

My company's account for our RDP software got shut off for non-payment today.
Our sales rep for our biggest customers is our only fully remote employee, and they were unable to connect to the system to diagnose an issue with an order all day.
I think the writing is on the wall.

[mystic violet]

real

[near ocean]

I worked at a ~10eng startup with a "not really technical" director of engineering but they didnt really mess with technical stuff, they were more a project manager kind of role

[mortal wedge]

Which I think is fine, as long as like.... the director listens to the expertise of the senior over the junior. Or at the very least, doesn't direct everyone to follow the junior and then blames the senior for it

[near ocean]

Yea it doesnt really apply here, our engineers started off as a contracted team, they already knew each other and worked well together so the director basically just told them what to build, not how

[smoky quest]

the engineer tries to build the best product while the management tries to build the best team to build the best product. Having the director making direct product decisions implies there is something wrong somewhere

[mortal wedge]

And this is before we even get to projects being demanded of me to personally code while I'm in 30+ hours of meeting each week

[near ocean]

lmao, wild

[mortal wedge]

"To increase alignment and productivity"

[near ocean]

i think i have the exact opposite problem, not enough meetings, for me anyway

[mortal wedge]

Damn want to take some of mine

You're correct a 40h work week is the standard.

[near ocean]

ahem, 37.5h contractually (!)

[mortal wedge]

You've also correctly identified the problem that if the vast majority of my time is spent in meetings I don't have time to code

Doesn't stop me from getting blamed for not completing them though!

I think this conversation has clearly established that what I'm going through at my company is not normal and probably not my fault

[smoky quest]

30h a meetings for a lead doesn't make sense for a small company

time to review your calendar

[mortal wedge]

I think the problem is I have 3 bosses, kind of. My new boss, my old boss, and the CSO. They all have things they want me to focus working on so I spend a lto of time bouncing between them figuring out priorities

[smoky quest]

you need one boss

[near ocean]

maybe its time to

[mortal wedge]

I think my new boss hates what my old boss and the CSO are doing, but he's new and doesn't know how to stop it

[smoky quest]

being a boss also implies having the ability to hold tough discussions

[mortal wedge]

And yeah, I think the solution is new job

But I'm glad to hear this shouldn't be expected at every company. Any suggestions on how to suss out this kind of company in an interview?

[near ocean]

2x standup 😋

[smoky quest]

"Tell me about the last time a project failed".
If you get answers like https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/1br9vxr/comment/kx90ffb/ it's a good sign to avoid that boss

[mortal wedge]

O_O

That's a great question though, tell me about the last a project failed

[smoky quest]

yeah it's just a behavioral interview on the interviewer 😉
You can also ask what happened the last time they made a decision that turned out not successful, or asking about related question but about a direct report

[normal burrow]

okkk i potentially might have a way of earning money from programming while off on holidays (school holidays) (:

[mortal wedge]

bbl

[near ocean]

would anyone answer a question like that though?

It's company policy not to discuss projects past or ongoing.

[smoky quest]

I have asked that type of question countless times and everyone has obliged

[fringe sphinx]

It's not a company thing, it's a team thing. You can have a bad team at a good company and vice versa

[summer roost]

related: people don't quit jobs, they quit bosses

[fleet reef]

I used to think that was dumb
Now... I still love my job but I really hate my boss
If I could replace my boss (and about double my paycheck), I'd stop job hunting tonight

[fringe sphinx]

We work for three things: $$, because we enjoy the job (and ppl), and a sense of accomplishment (or purpose/whatever). You're good if you get one, lucky if you get two, and blessed if you get all three.

[whole flare]

Shen doesn't have any 😔

[gray lava]

hello

hi

is there anyone around?

[mystic violet]

no one told me life was gna be THIS difficuilt when I cant even get the minimum, the literal minimum💀

gna be jobless for the rest of my life

im joking but im secretly crying

[peak halo]

Just start saying whatever you want people to respond to when they do see it. That's how text based communication usually works.

[peak halo]

You're having trouble finding a job? Do you want a resume review? If so, post an easy-to-read image of your resume in this chat with uniquely identifying details removed.

[vapid jay]

anyone wanna se python 3.12.2 in windows 7?

fire

[smoky quest]

This is unrelated to this channel

[vapid jay]

mbmbmbmbmbmb

[peak halo]

let the record show that this is probably "my bad" repeatedly rather than random spam.

[eternal summit]

i want to land an internship at a big company next summer, beyond learning python and data structures what else do companies want ?

[smoky quest]

projects is one thing.

Try to look at it this way: imagine that you and all your schoolmates send your resumes to the same internship. Why would the company pick you specifically over everyone else?

[eternal summit]

true projects yeah

in terms of frameworks is where i’m thinking also, is there a specific framework i should try and get good at aswell?

[smoky quest]

nope. Just pick whatever is the most popular so you can find more help

[vapid jay]

Hi

[rotund depot]

anyone can give me some tips on starting with python?

[uncut ridge]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[rocky lion]

How hard will internship interview question be?

[silent crown]

Make a portfolio. Show off your best work.

I'd remove the word "Achieved"

[plush summit]

How long have you been applying have seen you hete for months

[true harness]

ranges from no questions to quite difficult

[stray thunder]

i would like to learn python but i dont know how to start

[wooden parcel]

Is there any mid-senior data scientists which r willing to give me some insight on my career path?

[stray thunder]

.

[near ocean]

Nothing wrong with it but "Achieved 2 presentations" reads weird

Sure but you cant really tell from that sentence

That definitely reads better but its still not coming across as you having to compete for these presentations

[wraith gyro]

yo

[silent crown]

I think selected for sounds better. It means someone else acknowledged your competence.

That's a point worth making.