career-advice

[brazen plume]

Yeah! That’s why it’s so great because there’s several ways of getting into data science

It is also not an entry level job, so you have to work your way up to a data scientist…unless you are lucky. There are very few entry level jobs out there…

[pure raft]

And how would you recommend that path?

[long solar]

If I could get a job at any of these I'd be thrilled tbh. Either way both the DS programs I listed require classes in C and Java so I'd know programming whether they have me use it or not

[ashen cave]

Educational attainment is trending upwards in the United States. It is not just data science - many disciplines have seen a growth in graduate programs (although others have seen a decline). A few quick reasons:

1. As more people receive education they may reach higher, as well as those families that received more education and have children that reach higher degrees
2. Specialization and creation of new degrees (e.g., data science)
3. Universities can make $ off of graduate programs
   and more

[brazen plume]

Study what you like in undergrad. CS is great for it. MS in data science, BANA or data analytics…

[pure raft]

Oh but the first job out of that is still considered entry level though right?

[brazen plume]

What do you mean?

[pure raft]

Like if I just stayed in school for the masters and then got out and applied for jobs kind of thing

[long solar]

I have heard about this lack of entry level jobs in Data Science, and a BS not being enough, one of the reservations i have about actually switching from CS to DS. Are you employed but your employer is paying for you to get your masters?

[pure raft]

^^^ yeah I have this question too

[brazen plume]

You’ll have a leg up than most people, and you will grow in your career faster than those without a masters degree. You will get more compensation. DS salaries are huge

[brazen plume]

No, I am paying for it unfortunately

But worth investment

[long solar]

Ok then I am not sure if companies are actually hiring quantitative analysts with only a BS. I have to ask my advisor before I switch. @ashen cave It sounds like you actually know about the field, have any thoughts?

[pure raft]

Yeah I’m 32 and already have a degree so most schools rejected me off that, so I can finally get a second degree to go for a swe job and then I’d love to see

[brazen plume]

Thanks for the context

[pure raft]

Yeah, I’d love to end up in the AI space or quant space, but from what I’ve read so far all these degrees outside of research are interchangeable a lot of people on these discords have told me

[brazen plume]

That’s true! You just need to find what you want to do and practice those skills…I’m obsessed with machine learning design so I’ve made my classes focus on that…definitely math heavy

[pure raft]

Oh that sounds amazing yeah 🔥

[brazen plume]

It’s awesome! It’s a little difficult understanding the theory / math behind it all. But all these high level python libraries for ML/AI make it so easy

[pure raft]

Yeah I can’t wait to get up to that level tbh, have you been doing this for a long time?

[long solar]

@ashen cave I pinged you above with an edit, but I dont think that actually sends a ping

[brazen plume]

I wish I got into it sooner! I’d say I’m pretty knowledgeable in the “data scientist’s headspace” but as with these kinds of topics, you sign up for a lifetime of learning and adapting to new things…which is what I love, personally

It’s a very intellectually stimulating career choice. I’m sure you know that

[pure raft]

yeah I couldn't agree more!! I got the bug from doing audio "engineering" for a long time, and learning the troubleshooting/reverse engineering way of problem solving and learning all this is just so invigorating in its depth and application, it really is a whole new world and everyones so intelligent its amazing

[brazen plume]

That sounds so interesting to me! I would love to learn everything if I could

[pure raft]

yeah I'm totally with you on that! the only thing that's been bugging me out is the job market kind of thing lately, hearing these people submit 500 applications for 1 offer : (

[brazen plume]

It crazy like that right now. Probably because everyone wants to get in this field. Obtaining MS puts you in front of the DS boot camp squad…bus as a CS degree holder. You could transition into DS if you have the necessary skills. I’m getting my MS degree because there was just no way I had my stats knowledge built up. And model building skills…

[ashen cave]

@long solar quant hedge funds, from top tier to bottom tier, are absolutely hiring with only a BS. I have exposure to that space as well as commercial R&D/DS.

[long solar]

Ok, then I'm totally going data science.

[pure raft]

yeah its one of the things that freaks me out, personally I'm not sure if I can do another few years without a new job at the pay bracket im in for my situation so I'm trying to break in asap

@ashen cave that is SUPER awesome and really good to know wow

[long solar]

@brazen plume You upskilled voluntarily, as in you could've been fine with a undergrad, correct?

[ashen cave]

There is some truth to this, but there is also some nuance. The boot camp era is kind of out of fashion, but an MS will also put you into another tier of employment. That being said, there are plenty of slower moving institutions that are going to keep sucking up entry-level BS grads

[long solar]

You wanna be quant too? Lol we gonna be buddies?

[brazen plume]

No, I did chemistry & materials engineering. I built carbon nano structures for electronic applications. I was knowledgeable of programming and basic statistics, but not enough to enter that market. The skills I’ve learned now have been so useful and it would’ve taken me years to do this on my own

[long solar]

I would have the craziest imposter syndrone ever, the entire time

[pure raft]

LOL YES I would love that! one of the first career choices I've wanted when I entered this space! super down

@ashen cave I hope you're right my anxiety with there being opportunities for entry level

[brazen plume]

I agree with this 100% maybe I misspoke

[ashen cave]

This is a great example of someone with an interesting background and expertise who has the aptitude to pursue what they want

[long solar]

Sweet man, what year?

[pure raft]

so I've returned to school for a post-bacc in CS (first degree was in audio tech), I'm hopefully finishing up this year november ish!

[long solar]

Kinda related, I used to produce music as a hobby
But yeah I'm just a junior

[brazen plume]

You could start out as data analyst (which is very common) and then work your way up to data scientist…I’ve seen that from almost everyone who now holds a DS title

[pure raft]

and that would work with my background?!

@long solar hell yeah i feel that! good for you on almost being done!

[long solar]

The skillset mix is very interesting here

[brazen plume]

Yeah it’s been a crazy road for sure…I have had a lot of interests, but I’m really satisfied I’ve settled with data science. But use me as an example that there is no clear path. In fact, diverse backgrounds make you a strong candidate

[ashen cave]

It depends on what you are interested in and where the opening in the market is. For example, you could do CS -> entry-level data eng, sci, or swe, all with different salaries and roles. But the cs degree and reskill should get your foot in the door for the relevant interviews.

[brazen plume]

I used to synthesize carbon nanotubes and coat them with copper for NASA

[ashen cave]

Know many a folk with ‘only’ a bs in cs at Fortune 500 companies in data roles.

[pure raft]

I appreciate this advice BIG TIME! as long as there's opportunities (as opposed to music XD) I'll be ecstatic

[ashen cave]

Only additional advice before bed is being open to different opportunities (as Brett hinted at). A data engineer might not be a swe, but you can get in a company and start making steps towards that (if you want). Similarly, starting as a data analyst is a very clear path to data scientist and manager.

[pure raft]

thank you so much, this is awesome insight from you both seriously

[brazen plume]

@ashen cave is on point…I got to go to sleep too. I’ve got optimization modeling tomorrow morning

[pure raft]

amazing luck to you @brazen plume and thanks to you @ashen cave as well !!

[long solar]

@pure raft I am just reading back your messages, we're both interested in the exact same fields lol, finance and ai, but you're one year ahead of me and its looking like I'm switching to DS. Idk if you've already signed up but internships over the summer are probably a requirement to get a job once graduating in december

You were asking super relevant questions for me as well

[pure raft]

yeah hell yeah, I haven't yet, because of my odd schedule I'm questioning when I should start that or if i should just jump into applications or (since I already work as a teacher in a big city)

yeah we're in the same ish

[long solar]

Tbh it wouldn't surprise me if work becomes obsolete in the next 10 years anyway because of LLMs but thats a whole different thing

[pure raft]

i used to think that, but honestly I'm not sure at this point if we'll be completely obseleted, I think a lot of jobs will but I don't think we will tbqh

[long solar]

Very speculative area for sure

[pure raft]

yeah youre totally right, I think on a human level the black box nature of ai will require some sort of guaranteed trust factor sort of thing with it

and especially with certain medical procedures, and consent with ai, gonna be interesting

[long solar]

I think there's only a handful of jobs that are completley safe. Like politician, since people won't ever trust a robot to run things. Boston dynamics is working on replacing labor jobs

[pure raft]

yeah, i think coding is going to be one of those. the code ai generates for me is absolutely bad and makes no sense

[vapid jay]

i hope i m not breaking any rules

[harsh river]

you should contact @severe widget to see if this would be allowed.

[vapid jay]

ok

[trail urchin]

any aspiring hackers dm me for more info.

[harsh river]

what sort of info will you provide?

[vapid jay]

i 100%'d helltaker

[nocturne harness]

Hello. When I was around 13, I had learnt some python code and a nice amount of c++. I thought I'd become a programmer, however life took a different turn and I won't study that. Is it still worth it to learn coding? I like coding, even though I've forgotten a lot of things. I cannot go to college to learn that, but I still have a lot of fun with programming in pseudo-languages. Is it worth it to start learning coding again?

(Btw I'll study music, idk if that can help you with the answer.)

[tribal horizon]

Absolutely

[woven niche]

coding is always worth learning

[tribal horizon]

And you don’t need college to learn it

[buoyant seal]

😅 i haven't started coding til few small programming classes in school
but essentially only in university started.
P.S. aim to get CS degree and u will be fine to make career out of it

[tribal horizon]

You may be interested in Euclidean Beats

[nocturne harness]

While I do enjoy the thinking proccess that's involved in coding, it feels a bit alien to start again. It's like knowing you know how to ride a motorcycle, but you cannot ride a bike well now.

How can I just restart?

[tribal horizon]

It will come easier than for most who cannot write pseudocode or plan out a program like that

[tribal horizon]

!res

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[nocturne harness]

To make a carreer out of it, would it not require having spent a ton of tiime learning it?

[tribal horizon]

It would

[buoyant seal]

yeah, a lot of time is necessary for practice.
to break your mind and adapt to its reading, manipulating, philosophies, being up to date to its new things
programming is more of a life style.
you learn through all your career, once u stopped learning => your career stops

[nocturne harness]

I see

My issue rn is that it feels weird to start over, because it feels so close yet so far. I know I am being vague, but I cannot explain better

[tribal horizon]

Python is def one of the most forgiving languages to start over from

[buoyant seal]

as long as u aim to get into university for CS degree, everything should be fine for career (as long as u put some preferably extra effort in self studies)
Many students only in uni start programming
With uni u 'll get plenty of oportunities for practice and easier landing first job
So, everything u learned before uni: is going towards extra

[nocturne harness]

I am not planning on doing that because the university landscape in my country is really weird

[buoyant seal]

which is it country? perhaps someone is from same one here and can land better advice

[nocturne harness]

Greece

[nocturne canyon]

hey where i can get help about code

[buoyant seal]

it does not sound like any weird country to me. You are lucky not to be in some kind of Iran 😅
Well... look it like that, when people wish to hire doctors, they seek for people with medical degree
when they wish to hire data scientists, they seek people with mathematician degree
same with development, u will have around 10-20 times easier way to get your first job because u have CS degree
plus during its time u will spend whole 4 years adapting to programming, as well as potentially getting extra credentials by participating in internships or competions
any online course/self educated person is just having hard time to complete with 4 years of dedicated full time education, no matter what they did in their short 6-12 months of learning
it is just... far easier to filter candidates by which have degree education and which do not have at this point

[fringe sphinx]

Start here: #python-discussion

[nocturne harness]

Oh yeas I am grateful to live here. But I cannot go to study CS in college. I'll study music. I love coding, but I don't want to go to college for it

[buoyant seal]

well, then u will have no advantages over hundreds of other people who wished to make career of coding because of doing money from home, because they got attracted by online courses and etc.
They will be swarming beginning position after having little education, and it will be hard to see any difference between them and you
while in reality it would be easier to just get person that finished university and has far better fundamental all around education and practiced far more.

u will be requiring some... very exceptional portoflio to stand out from other non degree people in order to get a job
or u will be limited to very low quality jobs to get in general
TLDR: it will be far significantly harder path to make IT career if it is your goal.
may be IT career is not your goal, then everything is okay

[turbid bobcat]

There's no price on a college education, it's a privilege really, even if the faculty is bad, just having those formative years in your life when you get to know the shape of your mind

Y don't you wanna go to college ?

[nocturne harness]

I see. I'm not hard and set on making coding my career. My main goals are in music. While I love coding, music is a higher priority.

I started this conversations as a way to see if it is worth it to learn coding despite having music as my main goal

[fringe sphinx]

Interestingly, there's a long observed relationship between coding and music. I've worked (programming) with many musicians.

[fringe sphinx]

In fact, one of my first bosses retired to record music full-time.

[turbid bobcat]

It is, there's actually a programming language made just for music

[nocturne harness]

Musicians as in coders who know music, or musicians who know coding?

[turbid bobcat]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_audio_programming_languages

[buoyant seal]

it may be still worth it if u aim to apply it for music purposes
may be u will be able getting job in company that is having music+programming related stuff as its main domains
with having musician education u will have adantage to get to such companies as expert in music stuff
Very over specialized thing a bit though and will need a lot of luck to find companies like that, which seek people like that though

[fringe sphinx]

Software engineers (professionally) who are also musicians (hobby / side)

Generally because SWE pays better than Music.

https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-one-thing-programmers-and-musicians-have-in-common/

[nocturne harness]

yeah that's the main issue usually

[turbid bobcat]

I'd still go to college regardless

[buoyant seal]

or may be u will just find coding usages for music as a hobby. that can be fun as well

[nocturne harness]

I see.

[fringe sphinx]

I, in fact, had a year or two where I wanted to major in music. I wasn't that good, I just loved it.

[turbid bobcat]

// infinite loop
 while( true )
 {
     // choose a note, shift registers, convert to frequency
     Std.mtof( 65 + Std.rand2(0,1) * 43 +
         hi[Std.rand2(0,hi.cap()-1)] ) => f.freq;
 
     // advance time by 120 ms
     120::ms => now;
 }

Not sure if people use this stuff, but given how many of these languages there are, sounds like it's a popular thing

[nocturne harness]

Yeah that's what I mostly think will happen. I cannot pivot from music to coding studies rn even though I am still in high school. The education system is different here, so I cannot do that. I technically can, but it is really really difficult and mostly a waste of time, as I already have a lot of education in music

[turbid bobcat]

That's called the sunk cost fallacy

[buoyant seal]

https://youtu.be/1MJ2g7Eb0QE when u join music and programming 😊

[nocturne harness]

hahahah yeah I've seen that dude. Pretty funny

The only way I may get a CS degree is if I get one outside of Greece after I've gotten the college degree in music

[nocturne harness]

wdym?

[turbid bobcat]

It's a known falacy, "I've spent X time doing Y, so I must keep doing Y"

There may be valid reasons to keep doing Y, but it's not gonna be how much time you've dedicated to it

[nocturne harness]

Oh I see. Still, I love doing Y, and though I also love doing X, I'll keep doing Y.

[turbid bobcat]

No, X was a placeholder for amount of time dedicated, but yeah if you like doing something that's good enough reason to keep doing it imo

This is the definition I found for sunk cost fallacy

the phenomenon whereby a person is reluctant to abandon a strategy or course of action because they have invested heavily in it, even when it is clear that abandonment would be more beneficial. "the sunk-cost fallacy creeps into a lot of major financial decisions"

[nocturne harness]

I see. I might just do what I said above. I'll continue my music education as normal and perhaps if the chance to study CS is given to me, I'll study CS also

[turbid bobcat]

Makes sense to me. You can also totally learn to program in your free time, especially if you enjoy it

Probably possible to incorporate it in some of the courses in the music degree, like doing an experimental project where u mix programming with music somehow

[nocturne harness]

yeah that's what will happen probably. My issue rn is that I cannot figure out how to break into coding again, as I used to know a nice amount of python, and rn I've forgotten it.

[fringe sphinx]

Well, that part is "easy": Just start writing programs, mini-projects, and build up your programming "chops". If you need project or resources, we can suggest.

[fringe sphinx]

What kind of musician are you? What instrument?

[nocturne harness]

I know a lot of music theory. I have finished a conservatory degree in music theory, and this summer I'll have finished my conservatory degree in counterpoint music. I mostly study the trumpet and the piano.

To answer the first one, what projects should I start with? I also seem to have some gaps in things like 'def', and in syntax in general.

[fringe sphinx]

!resources Start here, read either Automate the Boring Stuff or A Byte of Python (free ebooks, short and simple) to refresh your memory.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[fringe sphinx]

!kindling then go here and pick a project, something really easy. And/or, use a practice site like exercism or codewars.

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[nocturne harness]

Oh okay. Is it worth it to read books for coding? Some programmers don't like them and do not recommend them, so I've been hesitant to read any.

[fringe sphinx]

In this server, those two ebooks are the most common recommendation. Many of us recommend them. If you're going to program, it's important to get use to reading coding & documentation.

[nocturne harness]

Yeah I need to. Even as a linux user, I dread the use of documentation haha.

[fringe sphinx]

Like music, you pick up more on the second read of these books.

[nocturne harness]

yepp

Well, I will start today. I'll gather my resources and hopefully you'll see me somewhere in these channels asking for support soon enough.

[turbid bobcat]

this where I am at, still not perfect but I'm gonna send it out to 3 or 4 companies, see how it does, it's already 1000x better than the one that got me tomorrows interview tho

(any feedback is appreciated ofc 🙂 )

[silver igloo]

hi

[queen wing]

I want to deploy my django website on vps in almalinux 8 server . and I getting this error .

[crystal nacelle]

Is a mobile app developer a good career choice 🤔

[buoyant seal]

in my opinionated opinion,

• if for Android and u are able to like using Java/Kotlin, then yes. Android dominates mobile market across the world, should be plenty of jobs for that
• if for Ios/Apple, then in my opinion no (kind of bad tying your entire career to one over greedy proprietary company)
• There are extra options to utilize stuff like React Native/Electron stuff for module development, but lets not consider them as very serious 😅 Although they are an option too. Plus there are other available languages in this ecosystem. Using React Native like stuff, is kind of extension of web frontender career more than mobile dev

[crystal nacelle]

ok gotcha thanks so much

[crystal nacelle]

are u saying that java is anoyying?

so far i have been learning python and no java

[buoyant seal]

It has... some... serious learning curve, definitely not that beginner friendly as python
its ecosystem has some challenges araised from its legacy
it requires also extra... code architectural education.
there are some also missing features that modern languages like to have (That's why Kotlin kind of appeared), but Java catches up

[crystal nacelle]

gotcha

[crystal nacelle]

oh ok

[main barn]

what is best site or app for finding a programming related job?

[buoyant seal]

😅 u may feel annoyance with Java after Python for reasons of

1. u a going to have significantly more verbous code (like x2) (as all static typed languages have pretty much)
2. it is way more challenging to unit test than python (as all static typed languages)
3. dependency management is some hackish tool that requires a ton of extra code present in your repository for its working. At least it is CLI friendly though, somewhat.
4. a very long compiling time to run app or tests (fixable somewhat with caching through graddle)
5. memory hungry

as advanatage:

• it has 100% static typing safe net for all code and libs
  • easier to write working code without unit tests or with less unit testing percentage coverage in general.
  • grants ability to manipulate multiple files and code lines in amount far beyond interpreted languages, and thus easier refactoring to clean/well documented code
  • your code will just scale nicer in size if u get code architecture related stuff
• its multithreading is actually present in normal capacity in comparison to python, u are actually able to multithread.
• higher raw performance power (hehe, isn't almost everything having higher perf power over python)
• fitting cross platform development (from Linux to Windows and between other platforms). Python is kind of cross platform, but it lacks ability to compile cross platform... Well, java is not that super better in this regard tbh with requiring installed java, but at least Java is not requiring from u installing libraries at target machine (u are able to pack them inside (with some transpiling they will run from any java version available due to its compatibility)), so i guess Java is a bit better cross platform than python
• fitting to be used for desktop and mobile dev because of language capabilities and ecosystem (and backend development too)
  • (and even game dev, Minecraft is made with java). U will be able make minecraft mods 🎉
    may be some other advantages i haven't realized yet

[turbid bobcat]

that Java hello world tho

public class myfirstclass{
public static void main(String[] args)
{
            System.out.println(“Hello,World”);
}
}

I like that you can do games with it tho, might give it a try in the future

[buoyant seal]

Since java 21 it can be even just

void main() {
    System.out.println("Hello, World!");
}

[turbid bobcat]

we won't let them kill our beloved meme

[buoyant seal]

give me kotlin inline value classes, which are also known as python typing.NewType
and i will be very happy in Java may be.

[turbid bobcat]

Wait, so is it like a struct in C

OOP has so much stuff

[buoyant seal]

mm no. Struct is entirely different thing.
Java records or Java lombok are this stuff
Python analogs are data structs or for runtime validations Pydantic

Inline value classes/NewType are a way to declare new type for simple types like str/int/float64
Giving them alias preferably protected against implicit casting (NewType in python has issues). Very preferable thing to make perfect Domain language for app

[turbid bobcat]

// No actual instantiation of class 'Password' happens
// At runtime 'securePassword' contains just 'String'
val securePassword = Password("Don't try this in production")

[buoyant seal]

its purpose to protect during static typing check at least. When u write program and run compiling/linting procedures.
Runtime protection is nice to have but not required
U will see code places where u try incorrect type usage
and each value will be significantly better documented (Single uniform same type across your code, describing what it really is despite different var names!) (Like instead of string, having type AWSarn across all variables having AWS arn value)

[turbid bobcat]

I don't get how this is useful in a language that's already statically typed tho

[turbid bobcat]

Ah okay

[buoyant seal]

@crystal nacelle wrote comparison for u between python and java

[vapid jay]

@urban geode

Look I want to start programming. Where can I programm here

[urban geode]

@vapid jay is that Pycharm?

[near ocean]

This isnt a help channel, read the channel description

[vapid jay]

Yes

[urban geode]

and this isn't a good channel for this, #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval would be better

[vapid jay]

hi.is it good idea to know lots of field in programming but not master it or master in one thing?

in context of me i am learinging web development, mobile development and some game industry. i would say in web both front and back i am quite ready to get started as junior developer but should i focus on mastering these things or continue to other technologies

[native narwhal]

Guys what are some Free tech related Certs that I can get
of any sort, systems, cloud, coding, networks
Any suggestions greatly appreciated!

[vapid jay]

My friend added me as a collaborator so that repo should show under my profile as well right

[vapid jay]

i think MIT gives free certs for their online courses

[native narwhal]

I'll check it out right away

[vapid jay]

but free certs always has no respect in field

[regal axle]

Not necessarily. But you can pin it or add it. But I don’t think it should show up automatically

[vapid jay]

Um so what should i do

[regal axle]

Except for rare exceptions, certs (in cs) are not worth anything. They don’t help you out in any way.

Basically, unless a job / position explicitly asks for a cert, don’t bother. Now, there are some niches that do care. And some that pretend to care. So … do what you will with that info

[vapid jay]

Yo do i need to fork it

[regal axle]

Look up how to add a repo to your account. You also optionally look at how to make a custom landing page for GitHub.

You don’t need to fork it. Because that isn’t the same thing as being a contributor. But this also isn’t necessarily the right place for help on this. You can try #1035199133436354600 or just looking things up, it’s a common enough problem with tons of answers online

[turbid bobcat]

Alright, I sent out some resumes, will see how it does

[gritty rivet]

Certs in general have very little value for SWE or programming, some certs have value for general IT support but not free ones

[gritty rivet]

The Harvard CS50 courses seem good, but you have to pay to get the cert which has no value. You can do the courses without the cert for free

If you want to know what certs do have value, look at job listings.

[silk mauve]

Watching the new 2023 cs50 right now, more for enjoyment than anything though 😄

[graceful basalt]

@dire lance

@dire lance

[regal axle]

In short, being a good developer has nothing to do with frameworks. They come and go and each project might require you to use a new one. So I wouldn't worry about that. I would just focus on making cool things and getting better at development. The rest will naturally follow

[hidden shard]

https://streamable.com/s0slgd this is my 4th ever game made with pygame with tutorial obv

[deft herald]

crunch

Please note this channel is for career discussions though

[steel coyote]

is it possible to make it as an indian dev?

[pine sleet]

yes. there are many Indian developers in the world

[deft herald]

mmm, indeed

[steel coyote]

aren't the odds stacked against them though?
like it's such a highly uncertain landscape

[pine sleet]

Why? If you're a competent developer you'll most likely be fine, regardless of your nationality

[deft herald]

Do you mean specifically in India? Or in general worldwide?

[steel coyote]

I wouldn't call it a nationality, but joining industry vs self-employment is big difference. Joining industry is much easier

[steel coyote]

not sure why but people call solo developers indian so I thought everyone would understand the term, my fault for assuming

[deft herald]

wait what

[smoky quest]

there are plenty of non-indian solo developers

[deft herald]

Oh, do you mean Indie dev?

[smoky quest]

someone must have played a joke on you or something

[deft herald]

Indie as in short for "Independant". Pretty sure that's what you mean 🙂

[steel coyote]

yah that sounds right, I thought it had a historical origin associated with india but I guess not

[smoky quest]

indie - independent

[deft herald]

Sometimes we take our terminology for granite

[steel coyote]

yah
like australian people are called Aussie, thought the same might be true for india

[deft herald]

Going back to your actual question then, i think this assessment is pretty accurate. I would say most indie devs probably even started out in the industry

[silk mauve]

so I had an interviewer today ask me what my coding chops were? Anyone heard this term before? lmao

[smoky quest]

yeah, it's normal english. It's a synonym for skills

[summer inlet]

do university courses cover hardware stuff like how a computer works and components and stuff or is it entirely coding

[deft herald]

Depends on your degree program.

[silk mauve]

I know what it means in english, but he apparently was asking what "languages" I use

[deft herald]

But i would think even a CS program touches some on the hardware, albeit not too much

[summer inlet]

ive never heard it said in english

[silk mauve]

was kinda weird, never heard it used in that context. Just an awkward second

[fierce inlet]

Hi im a high schooler who plans on taking computer science in college. Is there any courses/programs that I can do over the summer that can help me become better at programming?

[pine sleet]

Your university may offer some introductory courses if you'd like to get ahead. You can also look at CS50 - it's a intro to CS course by Harvard published for free online

Also, brush up on your math skills. A large percent of engineering freshmen struggle with mathematics their first year (typically calculus)

[fierce inlet]

Thank you! Would I need any other type of math, like statistics?

[open iron]

I don't think that would help you if you plan on coding

[fierce inlet]

Thanks!

[pine sleet]

It could help to know the basics, but it's not a pressing matter

You will start getting very busy after you get your acceptance and the summer before your first semester

[blazing harbor]

Take a lot of math courses

When I first came to my university (university of Michigan), it really helped to have calculus 1-3 finished as they are weeder courses and are difficult for no reason

[solemn hull]

Hey can anyone help me out with My Machine learning course

uk i want to start with this so

sorry if i asked in a wrong group becasue i am new here so can u please help out

[mint oracle]

#data-science-and-ml ask here!

[turbid bobcat]

well, it's noon, ig at least I'm not receiving an overnight rejection

[fringe sphinx]

Are you in US? If so, many local colleges allow high school students to take courses over summer. Some may require a math placement test (online), but not all do.

The nice thing it’s very transferable credit, and no AP test needed

[dense elm]

👋 Hey Python enthusiasts! 🐍 I'm on the lookout for a coding buddy to dive into the exciting realms of Python development and data science. 🚀 Let's learn together, tackle projects, and make the coding journey more fun! If you're up for it, drop me a message. 🤝

[peak halo]

This message makes it sound like you're going to send an advertisement if people DM you.

[mellow linden]

someone who is an expert in reportlab

[gritty rivet]

If you have a career question go ahead and ask it here,. otherwise #❓｜how-to-get-help

[vapid jay]

Hi I'm a high school student aspired to pursue cse stream
I would like to know about my career opportunities if you could help me out here

[peak halo]

be sure to do well in high school, and especially in math courses, so that you'll be a competitive applicant to CSE degree programs. (I assume CSE is computer science engineering)

[vapid jay]

Thanks

[dense elm]

no bro

no

[deft herald]

It's the emojis that throw me off. That reads just like a recruiter's post on LinkedIn

[hearty island]

“We appreciate your interest in the position of REQ245389 Analyst, Business Systems . Let’s get the (slightly) bad news out of the way so we can get to the good part. This role has been cancelled, but we still have so many other game-changing opportunities. In other words, give us another shot. Joining our team means thinking big and delivering boldly for our customers – and each other. It’s how we’re changing the wireless game every day.” 🥲

[hearty island]

how is that even remotely close to slightly bad news lmaooo

[deft herald]

Well the good news is that if they're axing reqs, they might be doing layoffs next (and you're not there to worry about it)

[hearty island]

oh true that

[deft herald]

It’s how we’re changing the wireless game
Can i ask what company? This is my industry

[hearty island]

t mobile

[turbid bobcat]

I'm increasingly more convinced that this market contraction is a US thing. I just had an interview and they said the exact opposite, they're actually expanding.

I cut the interview short tho, it was 80-90% infra. So I told him that it doesn't really align with my objectives.

[deft herald]

I think every sub industry has its own climate though. Wireless comm for instance has had a hard year or two

[turbid bobcat]

Yeah, also plausible

But I've seen people say stuff like "this is the second worst time in 25 years that I've seen for job-seekers"

Which is a pretty scary observation.

[regal axle]

It’s really bad for people entering the market. But the market is still moving. We are not even a month in to the year and we already have 10k layoffs in tech. But companies are hiring. Just mostly not junior positions.

[hearty island]

it's really tough out there, but i'm not going to give up. continuing to apply every day.

[regal axle]

Yea I’m just running away and getting a higher degree. Jk, it just happens to be working out that way. Hopefully the market comes back to a good position when I return

[hearty island]

i'll get an MSBA in 2 years

[regal axle]

I hear back if I’ll be getting a PhD by the start of April. I should know a little before. But that’s the latest

So for now I have to be idle. I need more money but jumping to a position when I’m only going to be temp is morally hard and physically hard. (I don’t want to lie about only being available for a short time)

[summer roost]

that's scary almost entirely because of framing. Another way to express the exact same set of facts is "this industry has experienced almost continual growth for many decades, with the minor exception of major events temporarily disrupting the growth pattern about once a decade"

they picked 25 years as the cutoff because they're thinking of 3 events, not 2 - the dotcom bubble bursting, the great recession, and the recent spate of layoffs caused by overhiring during the pandemic. About one thing per decade.

[turbid bobcat]

Oh I think 25 years is the length of his career

But yeah, personally, even as someone who's been here for very little time, I don't believe one bit that this is nothing but a temporary thing.

There's just too much innovation going on, and a lot of money coming in, from what I read the industry is projected to eventually hit the trillion dollar mark

[summer roost]

I don't think I follow - you're saying that you don't believe the current tightness of the market is temporary, despite the fact that money keeps pouring into tech?

[smoky quest]

As of January 2024 Apple has a market cap of $3.017 Trillion.

[turbid bobcat]

Uhm, wait, I'll check the source

[smoky quest]

and CS is far more than just consumer tech. It's everywhere

[turbid bobcat]

I believe current times are a hickup

[turbid bobcat]

This wasn't the source I saw, but these were similar numbers https://www.statista.com/outlook/tmo/software/united-states

Ig worldwide it's already trillion dollar

[stone shoal]

Hello everyone

[summer roost]

ah. your message has a double negative, so it reads as the opposite - "I don't believe that this isn't a temporary thing"

[stone shoal]

Good evening from Nigeria

[turbid bobcat]

Yeah sorry about that, I sometimes don't write very well, especially when I'm tired

[smoky quest]

without reading the details, it sounds like it's a matter of valuation VS revenue

[stone shoal]

I need your help anyone... I began my journey few months ago learning Data Science

I need sites that can help me to learn more about it, I'll really appreciate that

[turbid bobcat]

Hi, check #data-science-and-ml , pinned messages

[outer granite]

Lagos or Abuja?

[fringe sphinx]

I’m not sure context here, but it’s plausible you’re referring to something I said, but: . From my seat, last year was the worst (from perspective of entry SWE job seekers) of the four cycles I’ve seen. They’re about every 10 years, as GG said: it’s definitely something that recurs and always feels like the sky is falling until it suddenly isn’t anymore. There’s debate over whether this is worse or better than dotcom bust: I had a different vantage point then, and it barely impacted me… but I’ll at least settle on: last year sucked, and dotcom bust sucked.

The early 1990’s also was terrible, which people forget about.

[vapid jay]

Is it possible to get a job as a python developer without college or high school diploma

[near ocean]

Possible, maybe
Probable, no

[true harness]

you can't really get any job without a high school diploma or equivalent

[vapid jay]

well then life is over

[summer roost]

That's definitely not true. There's people stocking shelves or pumping gas or grilling burgers without a diploma

[signal quarry]

idk try to get an internship first and if they see your potential then maybe they'll hire you full time

[vapid jay]

I always thought that the programs you make and experience gave you the job

[signal quarry]

do you have a portfolio?

[vapid jay]

nope but thats what I thought gave you the job

I'm still learning love programming

[true harness]

ok, i'll walk the claim back a little. the jobs that one probably wants are not accessible without a high school diploma or equivalent

[vapid jay]

ok cool basically life is over sigh anyway thx

[signal quarry]

just start building apps, etc. and maybe sth will come from it

[true harness]

in the US, pretty much everyone accepts the GED as an equivalent

[vapid jay]

whats GED?

[true harness]

general education development. it's basically a test you can take to certify you've learned the things you would learn in high school

[vapid jay]

ok I'll learn python first then I'll study school stuff from over at Khan Academy and then take the GED

[signal quarry]

thats US only, right?

[true harness]

US and canada i believe

[signal quarry]

I just read into it and it sounds like a great program

[vapid jay]

ok thx for the help ig things are not over after all I can still do what I love

[summer roost]

nothing gives you a job. Someone who is hiring will hire the best applicant for the job. If two people with comparable projects both apply for the same job, and one of them has a college degree and the other doesn't have a high school diploma or GED, the hiring manager is likely to choose the person with the degree.

[vapid jay]

ik

[summer roost]

Yes, it matters what projects you've built and what experience you have, but your competition will be people with similar projects and experience and a higher education level

[vapid jay]

YES!!!

that's what I thought this whole time bruh my whole world just crumbled but now I'm back im gonna work hard on my code and get better and better

I'll still go to Khan academy and reinforce math and english and stuff

[true harness]

not having formal education will put you at a disadvantage compared to other candidates. it's hard enough for people without a b.s. it's not impossible, but very difficult

[vapid jay]

nvm

[summer roost]

it's possible, but not typical. More commonly they'll just sort the pool of applicants by some criteria to decide who to interview first. The people who are a worse match for those key words get sorted to the bottom of the list, and are unlikely to get interviewed unless all the people who sort higher don't work out

[vapid jay]

wait a minute

what if I like had a bunch of certificates from different courses that teach python

[summer roost]

the biggest exception are things like government agencies, or other extremely bureaucratic organizations that might have rules saying that every applicant for a particular position must have a degree. But at a typical company, the hiring manager has a lot of latitude to choose the person they feel is best. It's rare for a company to automatically reject a person without a degree, but who's been doing the job professionally for decades.

[vapid jay]

say for example( codeAcademy, FreeCodeCamp, Cousera, Edx CS50) like all of those combined plus my own portfolio full of programs

[summer roost]

it wouldn't help much if at all. a degree is the baseline that companies expect, anything less than that and you're at a disadvantage to other candidates. And companies are so used to degrees that they aren't able to assess the value of different certs. They mostly just ignore certs.

[vapid jay]

man damn

so should I just make my own company then? or is that also not allowed for people that don't have high school diploma's

[summer roost]

sure, you can. that's an even harder path than getting hired without a degree, I think... what would your company do/sell?

[vapid jay]

idk something to do with programming lol

[summer roost]

you'll have a hard time getting investors with that business plan 🤷‍♂️

[white relic]

I mostly agree with this, but if the opening you're applying for has 100 applicants and half of them have degrees, smart money is on somebody with a degree getting it: chances are good that even if the abstract best possible candidate is on the metaphorical bottom of the list, the person going through the list won't find that person before they have preferentially hired someone closer to the top.
So, maybe the rule is not actually automatic rejection, but it might feel like it because most of the openings you apply for are going to have plenty of good candidates with degrees who are more likely to be at the top of the pile (so to speak).

[true harness]

it's very difficult, even on the surface. instead of just being a junior dev, you need to do all dev, and additional administration duties

[vapid jay]

that is very true I'm still a beginner at python so I'm not sure plus I don't really want a company

[summer roost]

yes, exactly.

[vapid jay]

ok so should I just go all the way back and learn from grade 4 till 12 and then take the GED then try getting into a college? to learn programming

[summer roost]

or in other words: people with worse credentials aren't automatically rejected from most jobs, but they're de facto rejected just by virtue of there likely being candidates who look better at first glance.

[fringe sphinx]

+1 Very excellent wording

[vapid jay]

[summer roost]

let's back up a minute...

1. roughly how old are you?
2. what country are you in?
3. what level of education did you complete?

my advice is probably gonna be pretty different depending on whether you're 15 or 50.

[vapid jay]

18, South Africa, grade 4 and a bunch of self learning

Tons of self learning files.. of self learning

[idle flicker]

hello guys

[storm plinth]

hi dishah

i need money

[idle flicker]

how are you ?

I am not bank bro

[storm plinth]

but you can help me

[harsh river]

this isn't an ad board.

[near ocean]

this is career discussion, do begging elsewhere please

[storm plinth]

i am not talking with you

[idle flicker]

damn right

[storm plinth]

ok lets discuss on career

[idle flicker]

please be nice

[manic stirrup]

hey

[storm plinth]

hey arkana

[manic stirrup]

anybody has programming with mosh's react tutorial?like the full one

[storm plinth]

please suggest me some best plan for my career

[harsh river]

that highly depend on education and location

[smoky quest]

A CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[idle flicker]

never did full but reached to state management topic

[storm plinth]

yeah you can contact with dishah

[manic stirrup]

even in this era of recession? smh

[fringe sphinx]

‘Era’?

[storm plinth]

he is fullstack developer he can teach you

[summer roost]

especially when the labor market is tight

[manic stirrup]

um who? can you mention their @?

[storm plinth]

thanks

[manic stirrup]

i hope it gets over soon :") affecting the job sector a lot

[storm plinth]

@idle flicker this guy

[white relic]

google suggests that the GED is at least somewhat recognized in South Africa. One idea might be to find some universities you would like to attend and see if you can find from their website or by contacting the admissions department whether they accept the GED or some other qualification as an equivalent to HS diploma

[smoky quest]

especially in eras of recessions. When the market is down, it's the best time to study up

[summer roost]

OK. I'm not familiar with the market in SA. I'm more familiar with Europe and North America. I'd suggest you look for a more local community to approach with your situation. In the countries I'm familiar with it's virtually unheard of for someone to have only a 4th grade education. If it's more common in South Africa then the appropriate advice for you might be entirely different.

[manic stirrup]

@storm plinth heyo can you help me out by providing the full react course? or any other full courses would do tbh

[storm plinth]

@idle flicker hey bro please help out

[idle flicker]

I have acadmind's tutorials and these are outdated

[vapid jay]

not common actually I just had a bit of a school social mental problem......

[vapid jay]

yeah I'll just start school from grade 4 and then get the ged and get into a college

[white relic]

generally speaking, you get the GED instead of finishing school

[summer roost]

I think they mean start learning the materials from grade 4

[white relic]

ah, then sure

[summer roost]

you're still young enough that the lifetime benefits of getting at least the GED should far outweigh the effort to get it

[vapid jay]

thank you kind dudes for the help

[golden flax]

Hello! I have a friend who is about to exit highschool but does not want/can't afford to go to college. They want to learn Python from basically scratch.
What is a course, or set of courses that would best set them up for a career in Python and would get them cerifications along way?

[gritty rivet]

A degree is basically the only certification that matters when it comes to programming

The Harvard CS50 course is a good start in any event

[peak halo]

What is a course, or set of courses that would best set them up for a career in Python
The courses in a CS college degree program.
If they don't want to go to college, they should reconsider.
As for whether they can afford it: pretty much everyone in the US pays for their education with student loans. Given the earning potential of CS degree holders, it is worth it.

[golden flax]

Well they had to drop out of High School to support their Disabled family so idk if college is an option

Can you go to college with just a GED?

I doubt most places would accept that, even online ones

[vapid jay]

actually wait a minute one more thing what if instead I got the comptia A+ and Comptia Network+ and... the comptia pentest would I still be disadvantaged

[golden flax]

That's what I was thinking for my friend

[vapid jay]

🙂

[golden flax]

Would you say a System Administrator job, basically getting into Networking is more appropriate for someone not going to college?

compared to programming

[summer roost]

there are certain jobs where the CompTIA certs are useful, but those jobs are mostly not jobs that would involve writing code. They're more IT-oriented than Software Development-oriented.

[golden flax]

Would you say because of CompTIA, IT jobs are easier to get into than Software Development if you don't have a degree?

[summer roost]

I think IT jobs are easier to get into than Software Development, full stop. But of course, they pay less too, and they're less intellectually stimulating

Help Desk and computer support type jobs are IT, and CompTIA certs can help you land jobs like that

depending on the company you wind up in, there might be a path towards writing code from one of those positions - but, there might not

[gritty rivet]

WGU does accept GED. While it's not the same as a traditional degree it's absolutely better than nothing

[gritty rivet]

A lot of applicants for entry-level desktop support and help desk roles will have at least an associates, but sure, it's a more realistic place to start with no degree then SWE and other programming roles

[golden flax]

OK so what's a good way for someone to explore what the Networking world involves and test the waters to see if it interests them?

[gritty rivet]

CompTIA Network+ is a single exam. It's generally recommended to start with the A+ first (two exams and more general) but it's not required

That's generally background concepts, but they should do hands-on projects at the same time

[golden flax]

Right, but what I mean is how does one see if Networking is interesting for them? Does it take long ot prepare for A+?

[gritty rivet]

For someone with no real hands on experience, I would expect roughly a few months of study for each exam

Maybe a month if full time studying

[golden flax]

Ok I guess they would figure out if Networking is for them by studying for that exam?

[gritty rivet]

The hands-on aspect would be at least as important

[golden flax]

Where can they experience that?

[gritty rivet]

Building networks... At least between VMs if not hardware

And to be clear, the Net+ is something that would help get a general desktop support role. To be an actual network engineer, with or without a degree, would likely require more advanced certs like CCNA. But I've never been a network engineer

[golden flax]

And how long doe sit take to get certs like CCNA?

[vapid jay]

Any advice for someone with a finance degree ~ 5 years work exp. It's been a goal of mine to learn a coding language to advance in my career, not going back to school just trying to pick it up online.

[golden flax]

Anyone have any experience with Boot Camps like Bloom Tech?

[smoky quest]

"automating the boring stuff" is a popular beginner resource

[smoky quest]

In terms of career and whether or not school would be helpful, it will depend more on the roles you target and if they fit in the continuation of your current career

[vapid jay]

aiming towards fintech / Banking sector ish

[smoky quest]

Sure. Given how wide are fintech and banks, it will depend on the profile for that role and how your current knowledge and skills fit into it

[golden flax]

So for people looking to get into programming with a degree, is a bootcamp a good method?

[gritty rivet]

I did Nucamp Backend and have no major complaints. But that was a few years ago when the market was a lot better.

Bootcamps are basically for career changers with professional experience and degrees in other fields. Getting hired as an SWE with a bootcamp and no degree was pretty difficult in the good times and probably roughly impossible today

[gritty rivet]

Once you get through the basics you can focus on projects related to that

[hearty island]

anyone heard of Zip Corp? not Zip Recruiter

[smoky quest]

bootcamps aren't degrees.
Companies will care more about whether you have a bs/ms/phd

[hearty island]

i'm asking bc i got an interview for them

[fringe sphinx]

I work with a lot of finance types. One of which self taught enough SQL and enough of a finance platform’s language to get a data analyst role, and is now working on a data science masters. It’s viable.

[vapid jay]

interesting, note a bad idea at all!

[vapid jay]

good to hear, shits not easy 😄 But I'm kinda bored working 40hrs and going to the gym doesnt take too much time.. Lets learn some python!

[fringe sphinx]

go to the gym longer, perhaps 🙂

[vapid jay]

I can still learn this on rest days, Time is not the issue for me 😄

[hearty island]

damnit, rejected from the k1 investment management interview for the IT analyst role in california.

whatever, it was $75K in manhatten beach, california. how the fuck would i live off that lmao

[fringe sphinx]

Rest days? Never heard of 'em.

[smoky quest]

weren't you looking for product manager or project manager?

[regal axle]

Rest days? You mean bonus work days?

[hearty island]

those roles require so many years of experience that i don’t have quite yet

[smoky quest]

I have seen quite a few entry level product managers.
Probably tough to get in though still

[daring quarry]

Hey guys, what kind of jobs are there in the cloud? Like what DOES someone with a cloud computing degree actually do

I'm thinking about transitioning from software engineering to cloud computing, but I don't know much about the cloud

[true harness]

i've never heard of a cloud computing degree

[gritty rivet]

Whatever degree program you're thinking of will tell you that on their website

You can search for people who graduated from the specific program you're considering

I would assume they'll be cloud engineers, DevOps engineers, solution architects and more

[gritty rivet]

It's a pretty common concentration now... I've seen lists of them. Off the top of my head Arizona State has one

[vapid jay]

yeah I would love to pentest anything IT involved I love

[blazing harbor]

like literally just take distributed systems operating systems and basic dsa

and you can learn cloud computing essentials in a month by urself

[chrome heart]

I want to be a baker that can code ovens

And be a programmer who does bread

[harsh river]

!rule paid

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[still condor]

@fallow hull @surreal hull This server is not for finding jobs and not for finding employees. For those who don't read our #rules, this channel has NOT FOR RECRUITMENT, in caps, in the channel description

[fallow hull]

pls

i need a person

[still condor]

If you want to hire someone to do programming for you, search Upwork or similar freelancing websites.

[fallow hull]

we need them for free

[still condor]

Then you are out of luck, most likely

[fallow hull]

can u ?

[still condor]

If you already have an active open-source project, feel free to share it in #python-discussion.

[fallow hull]

ok

[still condor]

People generally are not eager to work for free if all you have is an "idea"

[fallow hull]

ok tysm for helping me :>

[waxen swallow]

I’m new to python anyone got some tips I can make I’ve made a calculator already I need something a bit challenging but not to challenging

[buoyant seal]

https://codingchallenges.fyi/challenges/intro
https://nedbatchelder.com/text/kindling.html

[buoyant seal]

U could be making your own Markdown to web site parser 😊

[buoyant seal]

or u could attempt making nice html templator in pure python objects https://pypi.org/project/PyHTML/ (deprecated python2 project)

from pyhtml import *


def f_links(ctx):
    for title, page in [('Home', '/home.html'),
                        ('Login', '/login.html')]:
        yield li(a(href=page)(title))


t = html(
    head(
        title('Awesome website'),
        script(src="http://path.to/script.js")
    ),
    body(
        header(
            img(src='/path/to/logo.png'),
            nav(
                ul(f_links)
            )
        ),
        div(
            lambda ctx: "Hello %s" % ctx.get('user', 'Guest'),
            'Content here'
        ),
        footer(
            hr,
            'Copyright 2013'
        )
    )
)

print t.render(user='Cenk')

Using achieved result, u could make your own small web site about yourself / or as cozy place for some hobby present
That will make you practice a small platoon of worthy skills to have

1. templating
2. web servers
3. making deployment to something (Preferably Linux VPS from Digital Ocean/Hetzner and etc)
4. whatever else u will add to your project

[inner parrot]

Is it even worth it to go to college for Computer science? since Most of the stuff you can learn online and for free I myself am learning python from online resources and I don't see a point in going to college for it

[foggy wind]

Yeah

[buoyant seal]

yes. Making analogy
It is hard for medic to get hried without medical degree.
it is hard for software engineer to be recognized without degree.

Also most people lack deducation / a will to learn full time for many years straight.
College/university and easy... kick to the ass making person to study for multiple years.
And dev practicing for multiple years is always better than dev that practiced it only in online courses for few months

[foggy wind]

W

[gritty rivet]

If you think any potential employers are going to give you consideration without a degree, you better have a truly exceptional resume and portfolio and contacts in the industry

It's not impossible, but it's extremely difficult because resumes without degrees or experience will almost always be ignored, and even if you eventually manage to get some entry level job you will have little prospects of promotion

If you absolutely cannot manage a traditional degree there are online options like WGU, but you're still at a pretty big disadvantage that way compared to the traditional route

[distant urchin]

hi could anyone help me i find myself little lost. i been learning to code for a year now i have completed cs50 Python and cs50Web dev at this point i have made some crud websites and some small python projects. could some one give me some resource or guide me what should i do next (i wish to become web dev)

i was thinking to get in cs50 SQL and learn more about sql ...

[gritty rivet]

That won't hurt. For full stack web dev JavaScript is more important.

You could start applying for jobs if you haven't. You never know when you might be hired and if nothing else you'll better understand your skill gaps

Above all you should get a degree if possible (see my comment above)

[distant urchin]

yeh thats the problem cant join college for 2 years (in rehabilitation currently)

[fringe sphinx]

Can you take online courses?

If so, you could knock out a few pre-reqs... like intro to programming (the equivalent of CS50, but for actual college credit) for instance

[distant urchin]

i already did cs50 ..

[fringe sphinx]

Yes, but you won't get college credit for it, right?

[distant urchin]

am from india i dont think maybe idk

i have a option to take a 3year online degreee while i wait to join college but i think thats wasteful too since am getting a offline degree anyways

[fringe sphinx]

In the US, you can take courses as a "non-degree student" or "non-matriculated student" (something like that). Many universities have online course programs, and many of the introductory classes are available.

[distant urchin]

oh

[fringe sphinx]

My suggestion would be: Knock out some pre-requisites now, so that when you start school, you skip over the basics.

[distant urchin]

yeh doing it now going to learn more about sql ig

[distant urchin]

do u mean other subjects like math?

[fringe sphinx]

Check out kaggle.com/learn too, if you like data stuff.

[distant urchin]

oh ok i will check out

[fringe sphinx]

For SQL, here's a few links to check: https://owencampbell.me.uk/sql_python_tutorial/pages/intro.html, https://selectstarsql.com/ and more complete: https://www.pdbmbook.com/

[distant urchin]

thanks i was looking forward to cs50 sql i been liking all thier courses

[fringe sphinx]

Math is just one example. Universities have a defined curriculum: the courses you need to take to be granted a degree. For computer science, this curriculum includes: math, programming, CS theory, science, and (usually) some general education courses

[fringe sphinx]

Holy s***. When did they publish that? CS50 SQL. Wow, didnt see it announced: https://cs50.harvard.edu/sql/2024/

[distant urchin]

i hope it would be nice as others

[vapid jay]

I am working on a Data Engineer by Google certificate, do you think it would put me on par with a degree? I am currently 3rd year into my bachelors degree and just completed 1 year working as a Data Engineer and Backend Developer

[fringe sphinx]

? Are you asking whether you should drop out after getting the cert?

[near ocean]

It looks like youre already ahead of what the cert would give you

[vapid jay]

I am struglling to find another job and my job currently does not pay well, I started at 55000, boss always inspired me saying I am doing good and there is a bonus for me etc, but so far I have only gotten upto 63,500. I am unsure what to do at this point.

[fringe sphinx]

I'm missing something... are you in school now?

" I am currently 3rd year into my bachelors degree" implies you're still in Uni

[vapid jay]

Not dropout, but would I get more opportunities as opposed to what I am being paid atm. I am currently doing Bachelors Of Computer science yeah,, but i have taken break semesters to focus on work etc.

[fringe sphinx]

"would I [with a degree] get more opportunities as opposed to what I am being paid atm [without a degree]": Yes.

I am a hiring manager. I don't interview entry level / junior candidates who don't have a degree. Fair or not, it's a supply/demand situation.

[near ocean]

The degree is the important qualification, not the cert from google

[vapid jay]

But I have proven work experience? I have built stuff for clients in the financial industry

[near ocean]

Why are you even doing the cert if you have work already and havent even graduated

[fringe sphinx]

1-2 years experience in a low level, not well paying job? ime: You wouldn't make it past the screen at most large companies, and small companies would probably pass too.

[vapid jay]

Boss wants me to get the cert and he has mentioned I will only get a pay rise after that. I have a bad taste about this because originally when I started he said he can train me.

But after a couple months he asked me to sign a paper that says I need to pay back any time/ money spent on my training.

[fringe sphinx]

Country?

[vapid jay]

Australia

[near ocean]

Ok thats a red flag

[fringe sphinx]

I'm in US: I have seen companies who pay for degrees or various things, and say that you need to pay it back if you leave within a certain timeframe. But what you described is... what mar said... a red flag / sounds wrong.

[near ocean]

I would aim to finish the degree, try to stay at work as long as you can without signing anything and then leave for a better place

[vapid jay]

I am not really sure what to do and feel like I have no options, I don't want to loose a job that I got after a long search.

[near ocean]

You would already be ahead of most graduates, youre in a good position
And you mentioned you earn 55k AUD? Thats really really good for a student

You started on 55 and now at 63.5 thats insanely good, you dont even have a degree yet

[fringe sphinx]

Can you clarify something: Is job paying for cert, and saying you need to pay them back if you leave early? Or, "any time/money spent on my training" includes something other than the cert fee?

[vapid jay]

Right but I also work full time and I work hard, I have done stuff like migrating production level applications hosted on GKE, created an api that lets customers find the best loan option for them and the best lender.

[vapid jay]

Yeah, so even if I use company time I need to pay back

[fringe sphinx]

I don't understand how that'd be measured. I'd just say: "I'm not using company time".

But, paying back the cert fee sounds reasonable to me.

[vapid jay]

We use clickup time tracking on what we work on.

[fringe sphinx]

Tbf, that's not a bad deal... so, this sounds less "bad" than I first thought. Sounds like a good boss: "Hey, you can use company time, and I'll pay for your cert... but if you leave early, I want to be repaid".

I just wouldn't use company time, so the only risk is cert fee.

[near ocean]

I'm interpreting this as "we need you to get this cert, but dont do it on company time"

[vapid jay]

Right, but most of the time I end up working overtime to complete tasks and some of the stuff I do needs to be done after working hours, ie around 6pm. So, I would be in office whole day and go home and do some changes in production environment after business hours

[fringe sphinx]

But regardless: trust the #career-advice hive mind: The degree is the important thing. Not the certificate. Get the degree. Full Stop.

[fringe sphinx]

Are you paid hourly?

[vapid jay]

It's an annual salary package

[fringe sphinx]

Ok, so you're not paid hourly. Therefore, how would you know whether what to repay for time?

[near ocean]

You should talk to your boss about carving out a chunk of time in the week to work on the cert
Like half days on fridays or something

[vapid jay]

Basically they would calculate how many hours I have on my clickup timetracking

[fringe sphinx]

But you're not paid hourly. So just don't log the cert hours at all.

That's personal time.

Especially if you're working many hours at home.

The hours at home which would normally be personal time.

[vapid jay]

Yeah, so after work hours I don't log my hours anyway.

[fringe sphinx]

I'd suggest that: that's a mistake. You're working hours at home, but your timetracking is going to make it look like you spent, say, 10% of time on cert/education. When in reality, it might be 5% or less.

[vapid jay]

Hmm that makes sense.

Yeah that is true.

right now I have almost 3 weeks of training time spent. I am not sure if I can pay that back if I have to quit just in case.

[fringe sphinx]

What I would do is: start logging your after hours.

[vapid jay]

Okay I will do that.

[fringe sphinx]

Then, at end of year, you can say: "Hey, I did spend 3 weeks on training, but made it up with evening work.

[vapid jay]

But am I being paid fairly atm?

[fringe sphinx]

No idea. I don't know Aus. And, you don't have a degree / are entry level.

[vapid jay]

I have done quite a number of tasks even though I have not graduated. I have done very complex tasks.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, this is the unfair thing about jobs... it's often about your credentials and not your work output.

[vapid jay]

😢

[fringe sphinx]

But, take pride in your hard work and what you're learning, and just know that you'll excel at your next job.

[vapid jay]

Hopefully.

[fringe sphinx]

No, 100%. You know that you're doing great and challenging work. If you are, then it'll show when you interview.

And remember: every person you meet at this job will be part of your career network... perhaps for life.

[vapid jay]

Like I was just applying on Linkedin and all of them got rejected so I am feeling unsure whether this is actually worth it since I am not even being paid right.

Yeah, the thing is everyone I started with has left and no one new has been hired.

[fringe sphinx]

Just get the degree. That will unlock the next level.

The certificate isn't that important, in the grand scheme. The degree is.

[vapid jay]

And the certificate will be worth it too right? Cause I am grinding my ass off after work just so I don't have to pay it back

oh ok

God damn nice to know all this experience doesn't amount to anything without completing degree anyway

[fringe sphinx]

Honestly: Certificates for SWEs are generally pointless. I'd channel my energy into the degree, work and learning programming, not a certificate at the same time.

[vapid jay]

But my raise also tied to this btw

[fringe sphinx]

But, it may help differentiate your resume. Degree + the complementary data science knowledge + work experience will make for a stellar resume.

[fringe sphinx]

You'll have to make your own decision there, if it's worth it. It's not worth compromising your degree.

[vapid jay]

right on

Thanks for the advice

[gritty rivet]

You're still at the level where cold applying to random jobs that are publicly advertised is almost pointless in this current market. You need to network and find the jobs nobody is applying to. https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-software-engineers/

[pastel thunder]

just got 3 offers. the offers:

[feral igloo]

I got no CS degree, I took Arts as my major. What should I do to get into tech industry as a Developer?

[white relic]

Have you graduated? How long ago?

[gritty rivet]

Build a portfolio, network, apply for jobs

[fringe sphinx]

What kind of arts?

[astral ermine]

In my experience, data analyst is one of the easiest tech roles to land. You can pick up sql and python along the way and transition into something else later.

[hearty island]

"I hope this message finds you well! We appreciate your interest in the Business Analysis & Integration Analyst position at RXO! Currently, we are in the process of evaluating our business needs and refining the responsibilities associated with this role.

As a result, we have decided to temporarily pause the interview process for this position. We understand that this may be disappointing news, but we want to assure you that your application has not gone unnoticed.

We value the time and effort you've invested in your application, and we see potential in your candidacy. Therefore, we would like to keep the lines of communication open.

Please consider this a temporary pause, and we encourage you to keep an eye out for future updates regarding this role and RXO! Once we reopen the hiring process, we would love to revisit your application and potentially schedule further discussions." thought this would be an interview request but nvm ig 😦

just oof after oof this week

[agile vector]

Once I learn to code what do I do with the code?

[gritty rivet]

Build stuff. Apply for jobs. Whatever you want.

[near ocean]

Offer your skill in exchange for money

[normal anvil]

Hey guys, I am a recent grad in a non-CS field (biology) and i was wondering if it would be better to go back to uni for a second bachelors or if being self taught is alright

[agile vector]

I've seen a lot of youtube videos of people saying you can succeed as self taught and epically do coding remote. Sounds to good to be true almost.

[normal anvil]

remote work is exactly why i was drawn to this field, i also like how most jobs will have a technical component so that all that matters is if you can do the problem or not, but was concerned that a non-CS degree would be an initial barrier or entry that would prevent me from even landing the interview

[agile vector]

I feel like getting a degree would be fairly easy. Epically if you choose getting a online degree from a accredited school like Western Governors University. I'll probably go that route if I want to get a degree instead of self taught.

[shut prism]

In order to get a python developer role which skills should one possess?

[peak halo]

what kind of python developer? People aren't hired to write Python code. They're hired to do a certain type of development, which might involve Python to varying extents. And you usually need a CS degree.

[shut prism]

In the job descriptions it just says python developer

it doesnt go into detail what else

[near ocean]

Its not a problem, in my team of 9 theres only two people with CS degrees and I'm on of them

[agile vector]

@near ocean Where they fully fluent in coding, or did they kind of pick up the meat of it as they went that your aware of?

[near ocean]

Judging from the technical interview i had they had to be pretty comfortable with the languages we use and have built stuff before, theres also a design aspect to the interview

[normal anvil]

design as in front end stuff?

[agile vector]

Yea the interview part seems interesting. I suppose you would have to know some heavy technical terms involved with coding to have a conversation about it.

[near ocean]

System design, (as well as frontend, this is a webdev role anyway)

[gritty rivet]

Yeah, too good to be true for most people. Two years ago when the market was hot I got my first dev job, and it's fully remote. I have an irrelevant degree, I had years of professional experience in IT support, all of that helped and I still feel like I got lucky. I don't know if I could have done it starting out today

The few devs I know personally with no degree have military experience

They also got in years ago

[fringe sphinx]

Agree with dowcet. And: after the tech layoffs last year, it is not a good market for entry level candidates. It’s particularly abysmal if you don’t have a degree.

[pure rivet]

2 hours of work. 2 years in college and this is all that I can do in programming.

[tribal horizon]

what

userChoiceInput =

[pure rivet]

Just trying to figure out how to input a list of numbers, eliminate the duplicates, and split the number. (The first and easiest step of the sorting algorithm), has taken me hours

[tribal horizon]

what format are you expecting the user to write the numbers in? either way you get the user input with input() not print()

[pure rivet]

idk the format, however I want floats and numbers past 10 to be included.

[tribal horizon]

to eliminate duplicates, you can store things in sets

[tribal horizon]

then you can have your user enter numbers seperated by spaces

[pure rivet]

Will that keep the order of the numbers, or will it order the numbers from least to greatest

[tribal horizon]

sets are unordered so i think no

[analog sun]

Hello, this channel is for discussing careers. Please use a help channel for dedicated help. Instructions are shown here: #❓｜how-to-get-help

[long solar]

How bad is it to graduate in fall instead of spring

[silk mauve]

Why would it be bad?

[long solar]

Because the general pipeline is junior summer internship -> graduate in spring with a job. Instead of summer internship as senior -> graduate in fall to get a job

[silk mauve]

I guess it depends on your country or whatever too, but it sounds like you're just closer to your summer internship when graduating and thus might be more clear in employers memories to get a job

[long solar]

US

[silk mauve]

Also a lot of people in general don't do necessarily summer internships, and just have part time internships while studying, was my case for example

[long solar]

interesting

[silk mauve]

If anything I think graduating in fall is even better, less competition, because as you just pointed out, people are too busy following the status quo and graduating in spring

A ton of companies go on hiring sprees in January, so you're literally graduating just in time for that

I didn't plan around graduating in fall, just happened to land like that, and I didn't feel like I was disadvantaged. I got a job through a recruiter who came to my university though.

[long solar]

Thanks

[silk mauve]

Make sure to find out if any recruiters of companies you're interested are doing presentations or anything on your campus. They didn't even bat an eye at career day, there were so many others I was competing with. I went to a presentation they did on engineering campus though, hung around after and asked the recruiter if he could give me tips on my resume, and asked for suggestions on what I should work on to get a job there, and he instead gave me a job ID to apply to.

[long solar]

Did you do an intership as a junior or a senior? Interesting you got a job different than where you interened

[silk mauve]

I didn't like where I interned, a boring IT job with the department of transportation. Technically did it during junior, but I left to accept a student research assistant job that I was offered by a teacher, which I did during my senior year.

[long solar]

So what did you do the summer before your fall graduation

[silk mauve]

It was a long term internship, so could've done it until I graduated

[silk mauve]

I was taking classes and doing my student research job, I started in January, graduated at the end of fall semester

Even my internship wasn't a summer type deal, started that in January the year before, did almost exactly 12 months and basically resigned

Heck, I worked with a guy who was prolonging his graduation because I can only guess he was scared of finding a real job, had that internship for over 2 years

[long solar]

I am by 1 semester so I think I'd be doing a summer deal as a senior

[silk mauve]

That's okay too, you also don't need to get a job at the same place you intern at, but it makes an amazing fallback plan

Unless you're genuinely really happy there, then just take it and run

[long solar]

Ok awesome

[pastel thunder]

it was a joke buddy, its an ad

[vapid jay]

Anyone got any solutions on how to earn money coding as underage? Freelancing doesn't seem to work because you very often need ID and people don't trust you anyways.

[pine sleet]

Are you in university at the moment?

[regal axle]

Yea basically not a reliable solution. It would be easier to just get a normal job than trying to do code. But if you are even too young for that … can’t help there.

If you are really set on making money from code, your options are very limited. Essentially, you need to find a friend or family member who might need some code solution and try to get them to hire you. Or go to a local business and try to offer them some service (be it automation of website stuff). The issue with this, is that you have to put yourself in really bad deals. Such as “only pay if satisfied” (someone will not pay even if you do a perfect job) or things along those lines. And so that goes back to the start,,, getting a normal job is easier if money is the purpose.

[long solar]

Start a business

[gritty rivet]

Unless you know some very generous and trusting people, the solution is to get a normal student job

[pine sleet]

retail, food service, etc are usually always hiring at one place or another

[vapid jay]

I’m 15 but have been programming for a few years and done high level projects such as chess engines

[pine sleet]

okay. if you're looking for money, retail/food service/etc will still be your best option at this age. in the meanwhile keep it up and build more high level projects, keep your grades up, and get into a good university (at which point you can get internships where you'll actually be doing engineering)

[deft herald]

IME finding any job at 15 is difficult. I think at that age I was helping my neighbor renovate houses and staying after school emptying trash cans

[mortal wedge]

It's hard, because on top of all the difficulties of finding a job you have to find an employer willing to employ younger people.

[deft herald]

exactly

[mortal wedge]

It's even harder in a field like programming where the difference between someone without a full education and someone with can be very vast. For pretty much any field where education is required, it's assumed younger people don't have it.

[vapid jay]

Dumbbells, or pretend to be older... Then when you're older you will pretend to be younger

Local businesses are the best bet, online stuff is saturated, so it ends up being a sweat shop, big names, I wouldn't even bother due to the mole of people that they can get

[vapid jay]

Yeah but I don’t really have that type of neighbourhood and I’m not really trying to make a big name for myself in school or something

[deft herald]

Well, i wasn't suggesting you do literally what i did. Just that you maybe need to get creative about where you look for work

[vapid jay]

Yeah Andrew Tate brought too many people to the online schemes so its nearly impossible to make anything out of them anymore

[deft herald]

who tf is andrew tate

[vapid jay]

Who?

Stuff like fiverr, it's full of people from random shithole where they're happy with 100 monthly, so you won't make a living on it

[turbid bobcat]

Build portfolio, put code in your GitHub, make useful stuff like WebApps, wait til 16, I think kids can make money at that age as long as it doesn't take them away from school

[mortal wedge]

A trash person who is best discussed outside of this channel 🙂

[turbid bobcat]

You'll still be competing with us tho, so I'd try to search local and small gigs that most professional folks wouldn't want to do for wtv reason - like, I won't do a gig if it doesn't pay rent for example - so part time, small stuff could be achievable

[fringe sphinx]

!rule 6 No advertising here.

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[vapid jay]

Hey, so I may be starting a Python job soon. This is for a shop that does heavy OCR and Image scanning. I'm kind of worried if python can fill those shoes since they are seemingly replacing their legacy C/++ architecture with it. What can I expect?

[turbid bobcat]

Python never does the heavilifting, you'll probably still be using c++, but wrapped in Python

[vapid jay]

I'm sort of weirdly afraid of my long term prospects with Python. I'm glad to be programming with any language, but I'm not quite sure if the niche python fills is where I'd like to be.

[fringe sphinx]

I think you’d be surprised at how broad Python is used across ML/AI, Finance and other sectors. A dev with strong c/c++ plus strong Python is highly desirable right now

[vapid jay]

They said they were interested in backend, desktop development, graphics etc and those are definitely things I'd like to do

[vapid jay]

Interesting, I wasn't aware

[fringe sphinx]

https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-top-programming-languages-2023

[vapid jay]

Woah

Hello everyone , is Coursera a good way to learn becoming a Python developer ?

[pine sleet]

!res It could be, for starting off at least. Though I'd recommend one of these, and start projects ASAP

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[buoyant seal]

Python can do some heavy lifting if using optimized data structures from numpy
it just takes more effort.
Numpy is so efficient because it is C written stuff directly under the hood
Python is having... very intimate friendly relationship with C stuff due to being written in C

[turbid bobcat]

That's not python doing the heavilifting tho

[buoyant seal]

written in python, then it is python. the rest are details.
CPython is C too under the hood. it does not make it C.
Numpy is same CPython with C under the hood.

[regal axle]

I do OCR stuff. Most of the python work is not on the text detection. Those algos are written in some other language with bindings to python. Much like how numpy is written in C. So what you really are doing, is processing that output text data, and for that, python is great. I wouldn't worry about optimizations before you even start.

My workflow tends to look like : image pre processing with numpy like arrays, pass it into my OCR system, transform the data into output. And only that last step is really heavy on pure python. And that step doesn't require crazy compute / speed. Your biggest bottleneck will be the OCR part and again, that isn't python (purely)

[turbid bobcat]

It's not Python, it's python calling compiled C code. Python is bytecode being run by an interpreter

[minor sage]

the portion of the code that is python is not doing most of the work though

[buoyant seal]

... Interface for library is in python, then it is python.
What is used under the hood, not that important 😅

[minor sage]

the work is happening in numpy. which is what makes it useful. And that code is C, not python.

[vapid jay]

Thanks for the advice! I'll keep this in mind definitely.

[turbid bobcat]

Yes it is important.

[minor sage]

When people say "python isn't useful for the heavy lifting" they mean that you could not write numpy out of Python and still have it be useful.

[buoyant seal]

not from the point of python end developers using the library
They will be Python developers after all.

[regal axle]

It is abstracted away. It really isn't important. Just that it is fast. Now, if you want to know why it is fast,,, ok at that point it becomes more important

[turbid bobcat]

Knowing how stuff works one layer of abstraction below the thing you use is important

[minor sage]

if Python were doing the heavy lifting then you could write Numpy out of Python. That is what the heavy lifting means.

[near ocean]

isnt C also an abstraction

[turbid bobcat]

If you use C it's important you understand assembly

[regal axle]

You don't hand roll your own machine code? What are you doing?

[buoyant seal]

isnt C also an abstraction
for Assembly.
And isn't Assembly also an abstraction? for binary?
And isn't binary too an abstraction... 😅

[near ocean]

so this argument is pointless

[minor sage]

yes, but it's native code. It infinitely more optimizable than Python source, in large part because of this.

[turbid bobcat]

How so

[near ocean]

because it sounds like a double standard

[turbid bobcat]

You can always dig deeper, but you need a line, my line is one layer below

[buoyant seal]

knowing abstraction under the hood is extremely important only when it is drastically leaking through the abstraction and not holding the abstraction at all.
Hello SQL ORMs.

[true harness]

all abstractions are leaky

[minor sage]

It's not a double standard and it's not about abstraction. You can write source code which is computationally heavy in C. You cannot do this in Python. You CAN write source code which CALLS into computationally heavy code, but those are not the same use case and this is a distinction which does matter in practical application.

[near ocean]

What about pypy, does that count?

[turbid bobcat]

It does, if you use pypy you should know how it works

Simply because it's your tool, and you gotta know when it's failing you for wtv reason

[minor sage]

This is basically why Python is used all the time for ML but almost never used for games

[muted bridge]

what is the most useful/important thing to minor in atm?

[regal axle]

Minors are not important. But I guess math or stats are helpful. (but really, minors don't matter)

[olive creek]

Hi, I need some advice but before asking the question imma give a little background if you don't mind.
So I'm 24 years old, 6 years ago I got into college to study CS, but due to some family issues (my parents' divorce, and having to be there for my little sister), I had to drop out before even finishing the first semester.
But now things are looking better, I want to get back to programming, to college, I know it's what I want to do, even tho now I'm a little late.
But I don't want to study here in my own country, I want to study and eventually work in the UK or Canada (English is already my second language, and I don't want to have to learn another language on top of everything else)
I have enough seed money to cover the university's tuition and living costs for at least two years in my destination, but this is all I have which leads me to my main question.
I recently started the computer science course, and it begins with Python, let's say I have at least a year before I want to apply for a university, now my question is, aside from this, what other languages or skills or concepts do you recommend I start learning that has the highest potential to become a source of income while or even before I'm studying.
I'm talking mostly about freelancing and individual projects. I don't think it's realistic to think about a real job before getting a university degree especially while studying, but I won't say no to that 😂
And another question is that, let's say ideally I need 50k per year. Is that even possible with just freelancing? Or is it even feasible for me to develop my skills fast enough to get there in a few short years?
Thanks for your time

[regal axle]

First off, 24 is not late to anything. You are not late.

Freelancing is ... hard. 50k as a beginner with no reputation and not contacts is ... hard. You would need to find clients as opposed to have them find you (fiver or upwork type thing [avoid these, they are ... hard]). Typically, you are better off just getting a normal random job. Actually, if you are at a university, try to get a uni job. Some will partially pay for the tuition.

As for if you should focus on development vs trying to get freelancing work,,, yea, develop your skills. It is possible to do 50k from freelancing but it just requires a lot of luck. And because of that, it is hard to recommend. If you want to take that risk and put in the work and hope to get some good luck, you can. Just know that programming doesn't have to be your money source

[near ocean]

Its not realistic no, if youre from the UK you should look into student finance if youre worried about tuition fees

[vapid jay]

Does a portfolio actually help to get recruited?

[near ocean]

Yes

[vapid jay]

Right on

And leetcode?

[near ocean]

Also yes

leetcode-likes anyway, the point is to handle technical interviews that ask you small contained algorithmic questions, the specific site you use isnt relevant

[vapid jay]

oh okay.

[smoky quest]

to be clear, leetcode is a metric, not a goal in itself. To that end, practicing some leetcode is great as a way to prepare for interviews. But it should not be taken to the extent that it becomes a goal in itself and thinking that recruiters will care about your leetcode profile or how many leetcode you have solved

[near ocean]

You shouldnt tell people you do leetcode, everyone understands you do it, dont mention it

Its like telling them youre gaming their system

[smoky quest]

it's also not a great way to learn. If you want to learn DSA, it's better to pick up a book like https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262046305/introduction-to-algorithms/ and practicing through exercises including some leetcode.

[vapid jay]

Right on

Can I mention this one my resume? Completed reading this book, etc?

[near ocean]

No (and thats not a book youre meant to read cover to cover anyway)

[smoky quest]

no, it's basic

[vapid jay]

Oh ok

[true harness]

it's an introduction

[smoky quest]

Your resume should focus on your education (ie. your degree), your experience and projects/skills

[vapid jay]

Right

So, I have been working as a Data Engineer/ Python backend developer for the past year.

Sometimes I have to do mini tasks like deploy an api that predicts nudity, age and gender of an image.

The challenge was when it was first deployed it was taking 12 minutes to process a request and some would time out, I got it down to 2 seconds by utilising FastAPI gunicorn to process requests in parallel. I also had to optimise cloud runs memory and cpu to be able to handle the uvicorn workers created by gunicorn. Eventually, for the same price of what it used to be when it was taking 12 minutes to process a request (with some being timeouts) I got it down to 2 seconds per request with no timeouts.

Are stuff like these valuable to put on resume? These are some of the smaller tasks I have done. I am not sure if I am even communicating this properly for a recruiter to understand.

[near ocean]

Do you have a CV already? You could blank out identifying info and post it

[vapid jay]

I have a Resume yes but I am no expert in creating a good resume.

[leaden jasper]

@vapid jay you can share an image of it, just not the pdf itself

[vapid jay]

That's what it looks like

[near ocean]

Youre working 3 jobs at the same time? Your dates are confusing

[vapid jay]

Well, yeah. So at Panthos Labs, I do both Data Engineering and am a Lead Backend Python Developer. Cosmos Ventures is my business, I have 3 employees and they do SEO/ wordpress for my current workplace, and my workplace pays my business for those tasks and I pay them.

This is because none of the staf at my current workplace has time to spend on SEO/ wordpress and noone wants to do it. Workplace is only picking these up to maintain a client relationship.

[vapid jay]

My business also has one client which is my friends business, where we do simple landing pages.

[true harness]

yes, that is great. especially good that you have concrete numbers

[feral igloo]

2020

[feral igloo]

Yes, I'm going for that route.

[feral igloo]

Philosophy, Psychology, And Political

[feral igloo]

Okay, im learning Python ATM. Gotta pick up Sql then see what I will fit into.

I think learning sql will suit my profile and then always stay updated throughout my career for tools and different role to fall into... hmm

[blazing harbor]

woah

it's been like 3 years since you graduated! you must be a great programmer by now

[paper badge]

hey anyone here who's in the industry and self taught could show me their resume?

[feral igloo]

Lol sorry wait no😅

[deft herald]

What is it you're looking for exactly?

[paper badge]

just want to see roughly what I'll need to do to be able to get in

[deft herald]

I see. Do you have any education?

[paper badge]

no i don't unfortunately

[smoky quest]

where are you at in life?

[deft herald]

Like, high school or anything?

[paper badge]

haha well i don't have that unfortunately due to my circumstances haha

[deft herald]

How old are you?

[paper badge]

I'm 17 right now

[deft herald]

Ok. What would it take for you to finish high school?

[paper badge]

well thing is with that is that I'm not in school 😦 long story kinda don't want to get into it but i can't really get any form of education because of it haha

[deft herald]

Well honestly if you want to get into any industry, you're going to need a HS education

If you have room in your life for a full time job, how do you not have room to finish high school?

[smoky quest]

CS is a high tech job and as such requires some level of education.
Similarly, you would not expect someone to watch some youtube videos to become a doctor.

That said, you could look at some other jobs around CS that are less demanding and more accessible

[paper badge]

hmm, like what kind?

[smoky quest]

like assembling computer or local technician at tech support

it's low pay and less opportunities though

[paper badge]

tricky thing is i haven't gone to school for a good bit and that simply isn't a possibility for me haha

[paper badge]

i can imagine, though are there any other possible career paths that could be online by chance?

[deft herald]

But that's not an excuse. What's stopping you from going back? At least getting a GED

[smoky quest]

Let's be realistic here: your chances are practically zero.

Every job ad has thousands of applicants, most of them with CS degrees, having studied for 4-5 years AFTER HS, and with awesome projects and internships.
You don't stand a chance

[deft herald]

It takes a lot of hard work to get to the point of beginning a career

There's no short cut

[paper badge]

yeah I'm sure they do but i know people have made it without a cs degree (although i know they're the exception) but it seems that no diploma and a diploma wouldn't make much of a difference i CS if you don't have a degree

[smoky quest]

These exceptions are quite exceptional and do not lead to the same careers either.
Think about the amount of effort to be competitive with thousands of people who are more educated and skilled

[deft herald]

How many years of HS are you missing?

Also what county are you in?

[smoky quest]

also one thing to note is that it's never too late to go back to HS or finishing up studies.
There are many people who have had successful careers even after going back to school in their late 20s

[paper badge]

yeah i understand but if there's a slim chance i gotta take it, it's the only choice i really have haha

[smoky quest]

I mean, it's like saying you could become as rich as zuckerberg or bezos by creating your own company...

[paper badge]

i suppose that's one thing i could do haha

[deft herald]

You're 17. What do you mean it's your only chance?

Sorry this has got me into Dad mode

[paper badge]

well it's one of the few decently paying careers that's possible to get into without any education, even if the chance is unbelievably small

[smoky quest]

trade jobs can have a decent pay and are more realistic

[paper badge]

hmm, well I'm looking for something that could be done remotely as that's the only real major advantage i have haha. I live in Mexico but am a us citizen with fluent english, so even if i get minimum wage that's over double the average salary haha

[smoky quest]

no one is going to hire someone without any education for a remote job at entry level in something like CS.

[deft herald]

Yeah that's about it

[smoky quest]

I hate to say it, but it's childish to think it going to be different somehow for you

[paper badge]

tbh i came to the same conclusion myself haha

[deft herald]

Just go finish high school man

[smoky quest]

your best chances are to do whatever you can to get back to HS and finish your studies

It will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[blazing harbor]

can you not apply to university straight out

[deft herald]

You need at least a GED

[smoky quest]

you probably need a GED or equivalent to prove you have HS level of education

[paper badge]

but if were to do that i would realistically only be able to complete that in my 20s

[blazing harbor]

kallamos get ur GED if you can and apply for university, take an accelerated path and graduate in 2-3 years

[deft herald]

So? I was 21 when I graduated with my degree

[smoky quest]

Look for government help and stuff.
There can be evening classes or all sorts of equivalent paths

[paper badge]

HS?

[deft herald]

Oh is that what you're talking about. No, college. Actually I was 23 lol

[blazing harbor]

@paper badge remember the basics I gave you for becoming a decent software engineer

do you really think you could learn all of this without any university and prove to the employer you are cognizant of all this material

[deft herald]

That's not horrible though. Like recursive said, there are plenty of people who have successful careers after obtaining their degree later in life

There was a guy here last week who had just graduated in CS I think in his 30s

[paper badge]

but man at the very least I'll be on the back foot for a while haha

[deft herald]

That's fine. At least the foot would be pointed forward

[paper badge]

I'm feeling a little sick to my stomach after all this haha. But thanks guys for all the advice it really means a lot to me. going to head out for a bit, peace 😄

[feral igloo]

What's GED?

[deft herald]

We're not trying to be mean or discouraging. Just the opposite actually. You need a little truth first, and then we're trying to encourage you to put in the work. You can do it, don't let anything, especially your age or the fact you fell behind a couple of years, stop you

[smoky quest]

Good luck and have fun!
Don't stress too much about it, you have plenty of time

[blazing harbor]

basically something that replaces a high school degree; you can pass a test to get ur GED

[deft herald]

General education diploma, right?

[blazing harbor]

yeah something like that

[feral igloo]

@blazing harbor Lol how are you? Have you been here for a while?

[blazing harbor]

I've been here for a little bit of time (like a month or so); just looking for some professionals and a little joking around here and there

[feral igloo]

I meant were you lurking? I didnt see you chat in here. Perhaps it may be a coincidence seeing you now when im here

[blazing harbor]

oh yeah I've been tracking ur user id to see what channels you are in; I hope you don't mind!

[feral igloo]

Lol no I didn't mean to say it in that way. Comeon man 😅

[normal anvil]

why wouldnt you be able to? having a degree doesnt equate to having good knowledge of the material, i thought that having completed projects or previous experience as well as performing well n the technical component were most important

[blazing harbor]

nowadays you need completed projects + degree + experience to get a decent job 😭

[normal anvil]

damn it be tough out here

[deft herald]

Oof. You guys looking for jobs now?

[blazing harbor]

wym I am tracking

[smoky quest]

In abstract you could since it's the same person.
In practice, having an environment to learn and some teachers who know what you don't know you don't know can really make the difference. And that's not even counting the power of the professional network you would be building.

So if you are in college age, a CS degree would be the normal path and the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[cyan cargo]

Hi, i have a slightly unusual question, if i login in my vscode account in another pc, the files will be there?

[feral igloo]

ahh

[deft herald]

Vscode account?

[blazing harbor]

honestly you get an idea when you are in a room full of 200 people, and only 2 people of those 200 are getting the job

[blazing harbor]

sorry it's from the discord api your id is 874554145963651072

[cyan cargo]

Yeah, you can't have a vscode account?
I think i just sync the settings

[deft herald]

I didn't know you could. But no, it wouldn't back up your workspace files for you

Also this channel is for career related topics

[cyan cargo]

Thank you

[feral igloo]

I dm'ed you.

[plush cloak]

what programming language should i learn for cloud computing?

[blazing harbor]

java

[mint oracle]

Java is used for cloud computing?which tool they used for cloud computing in java

[blazing harbor]

here is a good idea: https://cloud.google.com/java

[mint oracle]

👍 I am only thinking java is used in app dev.

[vapid jay]

In cloud computing you can use any language.

It depends on the actual application you are trying to deploy

[blazing harbor]

yeah but java is nice when working with cloud big data too

[vapid jay]

So is Python

[blazing harbor]

eh I'd argue that java/scala is nicer esp with hadoop and spark

[vapid jay]

But with today's day and age where services such as dataflow and dataproc are available which provide a managed hadoop/ spark environment

I have worked with BigTable and BigQuery and do all ETL stuff using Python.

Cheap, efficient, easy to code and manage. I am not saying either of us are right, I am just saying just "java" is not the best answer for the asked question.

[blazing harbor]

I guess that's fair; both languages are viable I guess

[turbid bobcat]

Hi, in my country some minors are legal requirements to do certain professions. For example, I have a BSc in Physics, and I would've needed to minor in Chemistry to then be allowed to be a highschool teacher. So, I would check these aspects.

And also, minors are important because they can represent 20-30% of your coursework. As a future knowledge worker, what you put in your head and the practice you do with it matters.

[vapid jay]

Anybody here have certifications? what certifications would be good to look in to?

[near ocean]

A degree

[raven sphinx]

Guys what do you think? Is books on programming worth to read? I love to read, but there is 2024, maybe better to focus on data in internet?

[near ocean]

Some textbooks will never go out of date, stuff on specific frameworks or versions usually get outdated really quickly theyre not worth it

[raven sphinx]

yes, i have the same opinion, that in books we can find a real basics, but sometimes it's better to find checklist of one's book than reading it

[buoyant seal]

if it was not for books, i would not have made my very rapid career ^_^
some people remain in same skills almost for all their career.
it takes effort to go forward.
Books provide excellent.. structured learning comprehensive material

And yeah, depending on a book, even 20 years old one can be still relevant for 98%
https://www.amazon.com/Code-Complete-Practical-Handbook-Construction/dp/0735619670 is one of them

[raven sphinx]

thanks for the information

[raven sphinx]

are you self-taught developer?

[buoyant seal]

usually the rule is next one:
If the book is about rapidly burning technology, lets say react/django => It will become outdated in 1 year / 2 years
kubernetes is a bit too fast changing, so better to be up to date too https://www.amazon.com/Kubernetes-Book-Nigel-Poulton/dp/1916585000

if the book is about some stable technology... it can remain relevant for several years more, up to 5 years or smth (java / go for example)
but u will be still needing to catch up with missed stuff after that / takes effort to keep yourself up to date with languages/frameworks

if the book is about core software engineering practice
the book will remain relevant for 20-50 years
like https://www.amazon.com/Unit-Testing-Principles-Practices-Patterns/dp/1617296279
or https://www.amazon.com/Test-Driven-Development-Kent-Beck/dp/0321146530

[buoyant seal]

i gruadated as master with cs degree
and started to be learning a lot on my own after graduation.

[raven sphinx]

ok, thank you very much, this is very valuable information for me

[raven sphinx]

fine, i gratuadted as a marketing&sales and I don't see how I like it, it's like a simple and uninteresting job.

[vapid jay]

How do you all feel about Python Institute and their certifications? A ripoff? I'm coming from a government background so certs may be a bigger deal in that area. I know I don't need certs but could it help my career at all or at least be a good learning experience?

[fringe sphinx]

I’ve already said how little I value certs. If you really want to pursue certs, do certs in complementary fields (cloud, security, networking, etc). For programming, the best learning experience is projects

[vapid jay]

@fringe sphinx so a certificate of Google Cloud Professional Data Engineer would be worth it?

[buoyant seal]

CS degree is best cert. Govs like seeing degrees too.

Besides that, cert value is present in complex stuff closely tying to infra tech
like AWS cert (except cloud practioner) https://aws.amazon.com/certification/
or kubernetes CNCF stuff and other complex stuff.
(Relevant only for DevOps engineers (mostly them) + for Backend / Data engineers / Machine learning guys too probably / Database experts and other cloud related jobs)

[fringe sphinx]

It won’t mean anything to me when hirjng a SWE. But, if the structure of a cert program was what it took to motivate and get you to learn the topics, then it was a good thing.

[buoyant seal]

also agreeing on the point of better doing projects.
pet projects for regular software engineers are good stuff to improve resume. (Better than random no name certs at least)

• optionally writing articles/making your own blog when u became experienced enough is great stuff too

[vapid jay]

I've been looking in to AWS and Kubernetes certs, are any other certs in that lane worth it?

[buoyant seal]

stuff closely tied to job position tied to infra stuff. Oracle certs for Oracle Database Experts for example
in this regard AWS certs are nicer since they have broadest scope of jobs they benefit

[vapid jay]

Right, this certificate is something I have to get in order to get my next raise, I am not enjoying much of the stuff( I already know how to manage data lakes and data warehouses in GCP and have work exp), but if I am learning stuff about Machine learning and constructing cost optimised data pipelines which is something that I actually enjoy, would that still be valuable?

[buoyant seal]

Google Cloud Professional Data Engineer
should be valuable for resume as well. At least for GCP related job positions, which is like 25% of cloud market
So pretty big scope of market to capture where it will be relevant

P.S. cloud market is dominated by most relevant providers with: AWS/ GCP / Azure
They all have somewhat interchangable experience of achieving working with complex stuff

[vapid jay]

Oh okay.

[fringe sphinx]

If you’re learning, it’s valuable. The only question is: would your time be better spent elsewhere (aka Opportunity Cost)

[vapid jay]

Of course. There are some ideas I have that I believe could help a lot of people and business and would like to work on it. But I need some more funding to turn this into reality and the raise will just help me do that.

Also on a uni break so can't do anything with uni

[vapid jay]

Yeah, but I won't be valued for a position with AWS requirement right?

[buoyant seal]

it will be 33-50% relevant for AWS position too.
a lot of job positions require experience of working with one out of those three providers
for any other one

They have a lot of similarity.

GCP years will count towards AWS for sure, if u will have just 1 year of AWS exp

[vapid jay]

The system is so unfair. I work harder and am quicker in solving complex problems in terms of what I do than people who are already in the industry and they are getting almost double the salary I get paid just cause they had a degree which they probably got cause it seemed like a norm when they were young instead of it being a passionate choice.

[fringe sphinx]

The system is indeed unfair.

[fringe sphinx]

I know your feeling. Hard work builds your reputation, which does pay off in the long term, Besides learning: invest time in networking, never have lunch alone, etc

[vapid jay]

I work in a startup, the office is in a shared co working space building.

There were 4 of us before, now it's only me and CTO. Cause all left/ got fired.

[buoyant seal]

sounds like exactly my first job 😅

[vapid jay]

How long does it take to get the next step?

[fringe sphinx]

You’re probably getting higher quality experience than you would anywhere else

[fringe sphinx]

You said you have two years of uni left right? So two years

[vapid jay]

Yeah, I think so that's the only reason I am grinding my ass off here.

[buoyant seal]

well, my recommendation to remain there then. it will be useful experience to graduate with.
Getting any job experience before u graduated is very hard.

[vapid jay]

yeah roughly. I can finish this year if I do fulltime but I tried that last year and it got a bit hard to manage everything so yeah

[vapid jay]

Fair enough, so completed 1 year of getting destroyed in the a, now just gotta do it for 2 more years. Great 🙂

[buoyant seal]

after a year and a half i just left for a better job 😅 got lucky to get good one after that
left when understood development goes to some... direction where will be no longer benefiting

• war started in my country and i wished to get company more friendly for relocations (So i had extra motivation to leave startup which was not leaving country)

[vapid jay]

🤠 noob here

Does [spaces] matter in Python?
Does it change how the code runs?

Right on. yeah, the type of work and amount of work I get is pretty amazing. But with the lack of staff and other people it gets hard to manage what to do etc.

[fringe sphinx]

Ask in #python-discussion

[vapid jay]

Pretty proud of what I have done so far too.

For example, Kubernetes Engine felt like rocket science 1 year ago, now it's just another Monday.

Doing things and solving complex problems that people with their Masters struggle with.

[buoyant seal]

😅 i reevaluated my first job experience later... to lower value.
it is cool to work in real company, where there are actually like 50+ devs
and mature high load performance infrastructure.
Kind of more challenging.

The only thing i don't like there code state a bit is not up to my standards... but it is tollerable.

[vapid jay]

Yeah, I still gotta do more a grinding to get there.

[lavish loom]

Hey any suggestions on the best semi-beginner python course?

[vapid jay]

Yeah, that's anywhere though lol

[vapid jay]

Learn Python3 the hard way book. and Learn Python3 course on codecademy.

The book filters your attitude towards learning and has advice on how to consume the knowledge provided. The codecademy courses are pretty cool, with instructions and hands on tasks

[gaunt depot]

Hey guys

[lavish loom]

thanks ill look into it 🙏🏻

[fluid trout]

A good second book is "fluent python", it's great when you've got the basics down, and want to understand more how you can become one with the snake

[main barn]

Best site for getting programming job???

[vapid jay]

Arigato gojaimas

[gritty rivet]

The sites of the companies you want to work for.

There are two job boards in the channel description. Here in the US LinkedIn, Indeed, ZipRecruiter and many others are more popular but you should ask people local to wherever you are. For startups there are places like y-combinator.

In general you need to look far and wide and not concentrate on one source

[main barn]

Oh ok thanks

[main barn]

Is there any site for like international and working online?

[near ocean]

many, like remote.co

[fringe sphinx]

Plus, networking. Talk to friends, friends of friends, family, etc. Applying online is like shouting into the void sometimes.

[vapid jay]

Hello. everyone.. I am looking for someone who can support me.. If you can possible, contact me..

[fringe sphinx]

If it's a Python question, just ask it in #python-discussion . We don't really DM here.

[turbid bobcat]

Aaaah, I've applied for a role, there was this standard set of questions and I think I answered one of them incorrectly by accident and this thing doesn't let me even see let alone edit it

It was just random information like "have you signed an NDA that might preclude you from etc etc etc"

I had been waiting for almost a month for the position to open up and ended up rushing it

[olive creek]

Hi, tnx for the reply
And believe I'm not unfamiliar with the hardships of freelancing and how luck plays a huge part in it
For three or four years i was freelancing as a translator
So yeah while it can be really frustrating, my logic is that, the knowledge and the experiences i can get from it, can help me alot more for when i eventually try to get a job, as opposed to if i were to wait on tables or work in store for four years, specially in a field where a lot of really talented people are killing it without any degrees because of their experience
So that's why I'm open to any suggestions about what specialization or skill i should pursue for freelancing

[vocal bone]

Hey folks, I am looking for some opportunities to work (for free) on any AI based projects, to learn more about this field. I am currently learning pytorch and have studied ML till an introduction to neural networks. Nowadays, I am learning to train CNNs through publicly available data in an effort to learn these things. LLMs are also something that I have been wanting to learn.
So, if you are offering any opportunities on the topics above, I would be glad to help.

[fringe sphinx]

We don't do hiring / recruiting / advertising on this server. You're welcome to discuss your career goals or any questions you might have. Please delete.

For more information, see #rules

[vapid jay]

sorry I didnt post it for hiring

I am only looking to support in case anyone required

[analog sun]

For recruitment and jobs, see https://www.python.org/jobs/ and https://www.pythonjobshq.com/

[gritty rivet]

I think you've outlined exactly why freelancing is not the way to go. If you think programming is any better then translation here, I rather rather doubt it.

The way it normally works is that you get a normal programming job first and then after years of advanced experience maybe freelancing will be viable

That said you can look at places like Upwork and Fiverr to see what tasks are in demand (and also how hopelessly brutal the competition is). A lot of shady stuff like web scraping of course

[regal axle]

You need money, get job doing something. And on the side, you practice your programming skills. To get really good at programming, it requires continuous dedicated growth and not spontaneous 12 hour sessions. As in, you do not gain much more from doing a massive amount of hours of programming vs just doing around 30 minutes every day. If you can do a little every single day, you will know more than enough to get a job, by the time you exit the degree.

Also, while people do have jobs without a degree, it is way harder to do that now than it was a few years ago. This all depends on the type of job too. Like IT vs Cyber Sec vs Software engineer vs etc. They all have slightly different expectations but having a degree helps you a ton in all of them.

You will be in a wonderful position if you dedicate 30 minutes every day. And then on some days you can do more. The closer you stick to that, the better. Although, the most "optimal" strategy will depends on you and the type of person you are and the type of life you have.
Regardless, I wish you all the best and I hope you can achive your goals!

[turbid bobcat]

I'm gonna be really sad if I don't get called for an interview, it's a perfect match >.<

[hearty island]

you’ll get something, i have no doubts

[burnt hare]

not working first time using python i’m lost says cost is 0

[near ocean]

Try #❓｜how-to-get-help or #python-discussion

[buoyant seal]

== double equal sign is comparison between values
= is assginment of value to variable.

[burnt hare]

thank you done now

[little lotus]

Hello

[cobalt moat]

If I am repeatedly using the same person for letter of recommendations am I expected to contact them and ask every single time I need one or keep the document myself?

[deft herald]

I would probably just ask them once. What do you need letters of recommendations for exactly? Generally if a school or company needs one, they will need to contact that person directly

[cobalt moat]

Every single scholarship asks for one

And when I’m applying for 125 of them it gets annoying

[deft herald]

Ok, and you're able to supply the letter yourself?

[cobalt moat]

Not usually, which is even more annoying

I just hate repeatedly asking

[deft herald]

Yeah...that's tough. I guess that's part of the ask right? "would you be willing to upload the same letter to every request you get?"

[gritty rivet]

There are different requirements. Some applications want to make sure that the letter comes from the writer. But if you have a copy you can send directly that may take some of the load off your reviewers

You can also talk to your reviewers and gauge their situation. If they're getting overloaded by your requests then you may need to prioritize

[true harness]

from what I've seen, they usually have dedicated forms for recommenders to upload letters, so they can be sure the letters haven't been cooked

[peak halo]

recipients of LORs typically don't want to receive them via the applicant. If the author of the LOR knows that the person it's about will read it, they might not be completely honest. And also the recipient might think that the person the LOR is about actually wrote it themselves.

Typically, you enter the email address of the person who you want to write an LOR about you. And then they get an email with a link to a submission page. But even if they use the same letter every time, it's not reasonable for you to ask them to upload it to 125 pages, so you'd have to prioritize a handful of them.

[regal axle]

I have someone who worked on a project:

When I was in college, I took a class that was dedicated to working with a startup on a piece of software. I wasn’t paid and wasn’t necessarily “hired” but I did work with a team of students + stakeholders and made an impact on the company.
for
... around 5 months
And I remember there being a conversation similar to this earlier here. I am trying to find the right wording for them to put in their resume. This isn't volunteer work. But it also isn't work experience per say. What is better ways to word what type of work this? It is project work, but slightly more it would seem. But I am leaning to just saying it is some project type work

[turbid bobcat]

Sounds a lot like an internship

[regal axle]

Right. But it isn't. At least not strickly speaking. But I agree it sounds like one

[turbid bobcat]

Uhm. I think I'd add it as a bullet point under the degree it happened in:

BSc Computer Science

• XYZ for W company

This is actually where I put my internship

[white relic]

I did this exact kind of thing, our senior design projects mostly centered around partnerships with local businesses. I did what backwards_propagation described. It's part of their coursework

[feral igloo]

Should I go for a master degree related to tech? As I really want to get into tech industry eventhough my Bachelor was a non Cs one.

[south hazel]

What will you do?

[feral igloo]

Cloud computing, if I have the opportunity.

[gritty rivet]

Possibly. Have you tried building a portfolio and applying for jobs? Potentially that's enough to at least help you better understand if and why you want to get an MS

[gritty rivet]

One approach for example: https://cloudresumechallenge.dev/

[feral igloo]

I have some experienced in B2b development.

Since I have heard degree is important everywhere I go that is why I thought of ms degree.

[gritty rivet]

I am personally a Python dev with only irrelevant degrees. There are a lot of us, mostly bootcamp grads who got in a few years ago.

Definitely not trying to convince you not to get a degree if you think you can manage one, there's plenty of value in that.

[feral igloo]

I thought degree wasn't important in Tech industry since having a degree doesn't define one's capabilities and skillset which is why I like most about in this Career.

[gritty rivet]

Both things are true in a way. With the market the way it is, you need every edge you can get and a degree is a significant edge. But projects and experience also count, and having an irrelevant bachelor's is a lot better than nothing.

It also depends on your goals and the kinds.of work you want to be doing

[feral igloo]

I see, thank you for the advice. Also, what do you do as a Python Dev, if you don't mind.

[vapid jay]

@gritty rivet let's say I haven't completed my Bachelors, however, someone doing the same coursse who started at the same time has. I have not completed my Bachelors because I did an internship and started working on full time job so I have real work exp.

We both apply to the same job. Whose resume would be more likely to proceed to the next stage?

[gritty rivet]

I build custom API integrations for banks

I'm trying to move slowly into more cloud automation/DevOps stuff

[vapid jay]

I am doing similar stuff, I build custom APIs for loan lending companies and broker companies.

Most of the stuff I do is on GCP

[feral igloo]

Maybe we are on the same page moving into cloud.

[gritty rivet]

It probably depends on the company, the role, and how well your experience matches what they are looking for

[vapid jay]

Right on.

[gritty rivet]

Heheh, cool, if you're in north America I guess we're direct competitors. We're on AWS, have a Django-based platform for building integrations

[vapid jay]

I am in Australia, but I am thinking of moving to US if I get a job there.

[feral igloo]

So, Python, Django/Flask and APIs

[vapid jay]

I do FastAPI, I think everyone should use FastAPI

[feral igloo]

And also understanding the workflow of the integration.

[vapid jay]

Let me know if you wanna migrate to FastAPI, significantly faster, cool part is it's integration with pydantic BaseModel, allowing for Dynamic Validations.

[gritty rivet]

If I ever build the kind of project I've used Flask for in the past, I would definitely give FastAPI a try instead. But Django to me fills a different niche

[vapid jay]

i would like to know the key differences betweent the two. That sets each other apart.

I also see a lot of jobs in the market for Python Django developers. I only have experience with FastAPI so far.

[gritty rivet]

This looks like a good summary. https://medium.com/@ShortHills_Tech/django-vs-fast-api-a-detailed-comparison-df8d00f3c3b2

To me FastAPI seems like a better/newer Flask that works pretty similar

[vapid jay]

Already read that, it just says fastapi is simpler and provides solutions that are light. While django has more power under the hood.

How so? Can you process requests in parallel using django? Would you use gunicorn?

[gritty rivet]

Django has its own ORM, auth, lots of stuff included and/or pre-built

I'm not on the platform team so my knowledge of how we use it is a bit superficial, but I know we're looking at switching to gunicorn

I definitely feel like Django is something many people can learn on the job if they're familiar with another framework

[vapid jay]

Right on. You can use FastAPI for auth as well. It provides pretty neat features. I would really like to find the precise part where one would make the decision, "let's use Django, FastAPI can't cut this" or "let's use FastAPI, we don't need it for this sort of application"

[blazing harbor]

@smoky quest tl-dr I don't think universities in the Europe compare to American ones for CS; however, they are quite good at pure math. The job markets do not even come close to comparing

[smoky quest]

from my experience, they absolutely do.
paper mills have a low correlation with the quality of education

You also have to consider that different countries put emphasis on different topics and aspects

[blazing harbor]

I would say releasing papers into top conferences is a p good metric

[smoky quest]

it doesn't correlate with software jobs

[blazing harbor]

research wise how else do you compare 🤔

[summer roost]

I think outsourcing is disgusting, and if your country is being used for cheap CS labor, then maybe it is not the best country
it's a strange take to say that supply and demand is disgusting

[blazing harbor]

I mean to specifically outsource your company in a place where you know you can underpay developers is kinda shitty

[smoky quest]

you aren't underpaying if that's the market rate

[summer roost]

if it were underpaying, people wouldn't take the job

[blazing harbor]

These companies are pretty predatory in the fact that they refuse to sponsor them

[smoky quest]

what's the link there?

[summer roost]

how is that predatory? a willingness to pay someone the market rate in one country doesn't imply that you'd be willing to pay them the higher market rate in a different country

[blazing harbor]

I mean let's take India where there is so competition, and you have to take the job to support your family

[smoky quest]

underpaying implies paying below the expectations of the market. That means that it is paying below what other jobs would pay for the same role. So in that world, the candidate would take another job that is paying at the market level for that same role

[summer roost]

exactly - if people could get a higher paying job elsewhere, they would

[blazing harbor]

I remember working at this startup where we had half our team outsourced in India; they produced the same quality of work, but they were probably severely underpaid compared

[summer roost]

that's exactly why it's not predatory. They're getting paid at least as well as jobs on the local market pay

[kindred oyster]

you cant expect exact same pay everywhere since the standard of living everywhere is not the same

[blazing harbor]

I mean ofc I understand this, but I still think it's shitty

[smoky quest]

If the company had to pay USA salary in india, they would not hire in India at all

[blazing harbor]

I mean I see this viewpoint 🤔

[blazing harbor]

if there is talent, why not? I understand that an US based company should prioritize US citizens who pay taxes or wtv

[kindred oyster]

but why ? in the end both person in the US and India is getting paid in their local market rate

[smoky quest]

Because of the cost in difference of culture and timezones

They could pay the same salary and get someone in the same city than where the manager live.
There wouldn't be 12h30min difference. No late evening or early morning meeting

They wouldn't have to work through the cultural differences of what "yes" means

[kindred oyster]

if you purchased a burger from USA for say $5 , then you purchased the exact same burger in india , would you pay $5 ? no because it does not cost that much in india

[blazing harbor]

https://leetcode.com/discuss/interview-experience/4527006/overcoming-a-series-of-rejections-how-i-landed-multiple-job-offers-repost

[summer roost]

reminds me of all the conversations about the British "interesting"

[smoky quest]

indeed.
The source of many jokes

[crisp stream]

Wait, what?

[smoky quest]

yes