career-advice

[fringe sphinx]

If you haven’t, you should read this. It a practical example of fighting this: https://gist.github.com/chitchcock/1281611 . It’s a classic.

Sorry, I think we’re in OT territory: to be career relevant: the point is to be cognizant of the complexity and coupling in any project. Clean code is remarkable when you see it

[buoyant seal]

Sounds like a good enough reading to consider learning GCP over AWS for infrastructure 😅

[buoyant seal]

The Golden Rule of Platforms, "Eat Your Own Dogfood", can be rephrased as "Start with a Platform, and Then Use it for Everything." You can't just bolt it on later. Certainly not easily at any rate -- ask anyone who worked on platformizing MS Office. Or anyone who worked on platformizing Amazon. If you delay it, it'll be ten times as much work as just doing it correctly up front. You can't cheat. You can't have secret back doors for internal apps to get special priority access, not for ANY reason. You need to solve the hard problems up front.
Sounds good, if u design application that is not unit testable, fixing later is way harder too, and etc.

[delicate bane]

this was a good read #ot1-perplexing-regexing message

[buoyant seal]

you know... if u go this way... you are facing kind of a lot of problems in communicating platforms with each others though
U can start way simpler by not doing that. It is overnengineering to do it from the start i think. Not every product may need that
Good code of monolith can work too, as long as it is elegantly crafted

I do like idea to explore making microservices though in pairs... that every team should code Microservice and typed Client library how to access it 😅 It should make way simpler communications between them (or at least this is the thought that comes to my mind if we go AWS way from the start). My current company just has those harded coded url calls with hope it does them correctly in each service and relies on just sentry to fix the problems :/ dreadful

Hmm.... you know... if we just wishing better communications, we can just do better a bit structuring code and sharing whole backend codes between applications. No need to do public interfaces for them i think. Probably. Enforcing it by having public client sounds potentially simpler though

[fringe sphinx]

Hmmm? I wish we had a collection of great examples of good code based to demonstrate good coding practices. Would make a nice pin in this channel.

[buoyant seal]

just some thoughts aloud that came to my mind from reading this. Ergh. i think most of today microservices and front-back problems araises from lack of proper code for communications between them. If we designed services that are public with client libraries (for both public and internal teams) to access them in full capacities, it is one of possible solutions to eliminate this communicating problem and having code that can scale in size.
Potentially not suffering from one of the main problems of complexity araised from doing microservices :/

[scenic moat]

/help

[thin nova]

hello guys can someone help me install pip?

[deft herald]

What OS?

[thin nova]

windows

[deft herald]

You should have pip installed then already

well, as long as you have python 3.x installed.

Also, this channel is for career discussions. You can ask for more help using the help system

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[thin nova]

"Pip: The term 'pip' is not recognized as the name of a cmdlet, function, script file, or executable program. Check the spelling of the name, or if a path exists, verify that the path is correct and try again.
At line:1 char:1

pip install
Copy code
CategoryInfo : ObjectNotFound: (pip:String) [], CommandNotFoundException
FullyQualifiedErrorId : CommandNotFoundException"

[deft herald]

Please open a help thread. This channel is for career discussion

[thin nova]

ok

[neat thicket]

hey guys, any recomendations for sites with jobs that accepts worldwide candidates?

[subtle magnet]

i jus jioned the sever

[vapid jay]

hi can i ask whats next after learning python basics? ty

[deft herald]

Learning python intermediates

[subtle magnet]

how do i speed run being alble to get into vc

[pine sleet]

You don't, that's how you end up getting voice muted for 2 weeks. Let it happen by engaging with the community normally

[deft herald]

!voice

[inner wren]

Voice verification

Can’t talk in voice chat? Check out #voice-verification to get access. The criteria for verifying are specified there.

[subtle magnet]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[deft herald]

Off to a good start 👍

[subtle magnet]

thanks for the help tho

btw im new to phython i want to learn so i can get a job or start an ai automation agency can you guys tell tell me how to get started also could u vet this course im gonna do thanks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKHEtdqhLK8&list=TLPQMTAxMDIwMjNaDHttOsF7CQ&index=4&pp=gAQBiAQB

[white relic]

bro code is generally well thought of, I think.
But this channel is for career discussion, if you have more questions about learning or using Python, that would be more appropriate in#python-discussion (or one of the other more specific channels)

[subtle magnet]

oh ok

oh if this is careers im 14 so should i get a job or start the online company to make money

because im just learning python so i can get a job

[pine sleet]

It's difficult to make money in tech as a 14 year old. The best thing you can do now is to build up your skills, explore what's out there, and keep up your grades in school so you can get into a good university to study computer science

[deft herald]

It's difficult to get a job period as a 14 year old. Do all of those things ☝️ while working in the time off school doing whatever job you can

[vapid jay]

For example to start a career change to data analyst, what courses or roadmap would you suggest?

[undone glacier]

Which jurisdictions
Im down to move at this point

[subtle magnet]

thanks but i need to make money at least 5 grand in the next 3 years so i can go to japan for 5 weeks and if i like it ill go to collage there

[pine sleet]

Not sure I understand. You need 5000USD to pay for college in Japan?

[subtle magnet]

so im still gonna try but thank you for the time youve spent giveing me advice god speed

[subtle magnet]

no its a dorm thing hol on https://www.ef.edu/ils/destinations/japan/tokyo/

yeah its a dorm in the middle of tokyo 日本語 class in the moring and free breakfast and dinner you can prtty much fuck about the city all day as long as you come back at night

[subtle magnet]

yeah no its just room board food class and thats it not college iif i like it there when i stay for 5 weeks then ill go to collge there

[pine sleet]

Hm ok. I'm only familiar with the US system so afraid I can't be of much help

[subtle magnet]

youve all ready been a REALLY big help thanks

oh does anyone know what codeing langaue i should learn for net work engineering for video games ?

[gritty rivet]

That's not my field so I don't think I can help you with that question better then a web search will.

If you have a degree and some professional experience, get a good handle on SQL, statistics, a visualization tool like PowerBI or Tableau, maybe some Python... I imagine something like that could work

[gritty rivet]

To be clear I was talking about places where employers have to list salary ranges, and had US states and cities in mind. https://www.govdocs.com/pay-transparency-laws/

[gritty rivet]

Nope. Companies don't generally hire foreign strangers on the Internet

[delicate bane]

whats your background in? could you leverage pre-existing experience in a certain industry? i.e. finance, healthcare, legal, supply chain, etc. i recommend content from alex the analyst if youre unsure about how you would do this.

[junior hornet]

Been lurking for a little bit, but now I require some input:
[Title] I need advice on career change
[Context] Age: 27 | Nationality: Romanian | Education: College Diploma in ME, Masters degree in Entrepreneurship;

[Brief Context Addendum] I've been passionate about technology for a long time. Enjoy tinkering, learning, practicing anything computer related (usage, programming, software from low to high, hardware architecture, support, etc). Been denied entry in CS related Colleges/Programmes. Decided to not waste time, enter what I can. ME, didn't like it, CADs and implementing software solutions for mechanics, numerical recipes, calculus, ... got me through). Finish that, enter Master programme offered as part of follow up for diploma. More enjoyable, kinda same.

[Jobs] Jumped between some side gigs. Some basic stuff (typical IT drough, router doesn't work, PC1 doesn't see PC2, printer/graphics card/peripherals drivers don't work, install Win, Linux, even MAC OSes, general fixes), intermediate stuff (web dev, vanilla, WP, framework aided - Angular mostly), not intermediate, but neither advanced (python automation, interactions with Office programs, generate JSONs/CSVs I cannot be bothered to write manually, headless browsers and webscraping, IoT and embedded, mostly read up on C programs, shell scripts for UNIX low resources based systems).

[Current] I am near to leave my current job in IoT. It's a mess. Got accepted thanks to friends recommending me, worked and learnt some stuff, the pay is low (as in minimum wage low), it's the wild west of tech (hundreds of manufacturers, each with proprietary h architecture, custom OSes, custom software), the company has this perpetual startup situation (I am one of 4 employees, worn so many hats you could probably see them from wherever you live, had to talk and collaborate with dozens of third parties).

[Input] I want to work as a software developer. Every company ghosts me for no CS degree. Don't know what to do.

[vapid jay]

Supply chain / warehouse logistics.

[buoyant seal]

#career-advice message this kind of answers that

TLDR: learn skills that matter for software engineering (that are pretty universal ones like unit testing, code architecture and etc)
make portfolio to standout. that is universal answer for any software engineering job

if u want to be more specific to pursue specific job roles like Backend development (or DevOps engineering), i can specify exact additional fluff of technologies u need to learn for that (otherwise u need to learn preferably fluff of extra stuff specific to job role u pursue, there are many software engineering specializations)

[covert solstice]

hey I'm taking this college coding program that normally takes 3 years to complete, and can 100% make me get a job after completion. Now, I'm also on a college sports team so I will probably complete it in 4 years if everything goes well. Also, I may continue to university depending on if I want to continue playing the sport or not, and that's probably another 4 years. Basically, do you think I will struggle to find a job related to computer science 10 years from now?

[buoyant seal]

so... to summarize u aren't going to code for 8 years once u finished Coding program?

[covert solstice]

no, the learning process may take 8 years in total

[buoyant seal]

why it will be taking 8 years? u said coding program lasts only 3

will it be spreaded in small parts over 8 years?

[covert solstice]

I play sports so it'll be 4 years in college, and if I continue playing sports in uni, it will probably be another 4 years

[elder forge]

I don't think the age at which you graduate matters as much as what skills you have when you graduate.
If you have the skills, and a successful athletic career to showcase your CV, I think you will do fine

[covert solstice]

Alright, I'll keep that in mind

[buoyant seal]

in uni u wil continue CS program?

[elder forge]

Back when I did my master's, I did fencing with a Frenchman who could have chosen to become a world-class fencer (I am in Europe).
However, he chose to instead do a STEM degree, as that (in a realistic setting) would offer better pay, benefits and work-life balance as compared to being a professional fencer.
Are you in the US?, in that case using sports to pay for an education sounds like a good idea, but you should acknowledge the cost this can have in terms of your personal life (vs 'only' getting the education).

[vapid jay]

@smoky quest @fringe sphinx @gritty rivet just a lil update, I managed to switch courses to a level 3 computing diploma. not sure how much programming will be in that but it'll be tough since i have no prior experience and am 2 months behind, sure it'll be fine though. ty guys for your advice

[white relic]

Lot of question marks here.
100% job placement for a 3 year non degree program
4 years + 4 years = 10 years
No mention of what you might study in uni, which would be at graduation far more relevant than a non degree program completed 4 years ago

[gritty rivet]

Are you getting enough feedback on your resume to say for sure that the lack of CS degree is the main issue?

What are you doing to network and find opportunities? There's a lot of good advice here: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-software-engineers/

Personally as someone with an irrelevant degree and less skill then you describe, I had no problem finding a job after I did a short bootcamp a couple of years ago. But market is different now and I don't know Romania

[fringe sphinx]

Awesome so happy for you. Learning programming takes a big time commitment: a lot of practice and frustration at first. The first month is hard because everything is foreign. Best of luck!

[undone glacier]

What fluff tech is good for backend?

[near ocean]

Did you skip past the part that said learn software engineering skills that matter?

[buoyant seal]

• Postgresql/ Relational db (optionally MySQL/mariadb) to learn first (u can learn Sqlite3 as first baby steps to this thing) (With docker it will be way easier to use)
• get better with Linux, preferably develop from it at dual boot/main OS, it will be very useful for next point (u deploy for Linux servers anyway) (I can recommend Kubuntu 22.04 for start)
• Docker Deep dive book and get hang of docker/compose. Important for development environment (requires learning Linux as prerequisite)
• get a hang of DRF at least (becoming familiar with Django in general) (optionally fastapi, django-Ninja, flask)
• learn pytest'ing your code (check pytest-django features, factory boy integrations with ORMs)
• Learn celery throughly. In python world it is very powerful tool for message queues and as programmatic cron alternative will work too
• get better with AWS if u wish increased your value a lot
• nice to learn elastic search
• learn to use at least one monitoring, logging, tracing stack of technologies for web

[junior hornet]

Thank you Darkwind and dowcet for your time and care in the answers. Will go through your recommendations. I am open to more feedback if others decide to lay an eye.

[silk remnant]

Guys what are the skills I should learn to become a data scientist??

[peak halo]

"what data science skills can I learn?" and "what do I need to do to become a data scientist" are two separate questions. because you pretty much can't become one without a degree, or several years of professional experience in a related field (which would have probably also required a degree)

[silk remnant]

I am doing CSE

[peak halo]

what does CSE stand for?

[graceful pollen]

colombo stock exchange

[peak halo]

I doubt that's what they're referring to

[graceful pollen]

{computer science engineering} @peak halo

[peak halo]

adding a ping to a message you already sent has no effect, FYI. you'd have to delete the message and start over.

I've never heard of "computer science engineering", only computer science and computer engineering.

[graceful pollen]

yeah thats what i totally meant

[near ocean]

Googling CSE course did NOT give the results I was hoping for
But yea it's for Computer Science and Engineering

[white relic]

you could land an entry level data science role with a CS(E) (I'm assuming bachelor's) degree but it's unlikely. If DS is your goal, best shoot for a master's

[silk remnant]

I can't afford doing master

any other way?

[white relic]

then you should probably pursue some field where you have a good chance of getting a good entry level job with less than a master's

since you're already in computer science, that sounds like a good place to start 🤷‍♂️

a bachelor's in computer science is all the education you need for a lot of non-data science roles

CSE is kind of vague because different schools draw the dividing line between the S and E at different places

but broadly speaking I think you'd have similar opportunities

[silk remnant]

so what should I do??Web development???

[spark cobalt]

What do you want to do?

Oh data science

I think as long as you try aiming for more math/DS related courses and build a portfolio around it, you shouldn't be too limited in opportunities

[white relic]

Personally I did CE. I went into radar design, then semiconductor manufacturing.
there are a lot of companies hiring people with computer science & engineering skills. Many of which aren't sexy to work for like spacex or faang but still pay solid wages and also allow you to have a life.

[stray flint]

Did programming just immediately click with most of you or was there moments of struggle to grasp seemingly simple stuff? JavaScript/Express is kicking my ass right now

[spark cobalt]

It clicked, but never immediately.

With that being said, for me my "click" was just becoming comfortable in uncomfortable situations where I don't know what's going on and knowing how to navigate out of it

[white relic]

It's usually more of a gradual shifting of my mindset than a "click"

[spark cobalt]

Yeah it's more trained rather than a sudden 180

[stray flint]

So like your vision starts off a bit blurry then it slowly focuses lol. Okay good to know. Thought I may have started this too late since I didn't grow up constantly on computers and trying to code lol

[white relic]

when you switch from Python to Rust everything looks weird because you're looking at it upside-down and sideways. It takes time and some trial and error to figure out the right way to think about things with a new tool

learning your first programming language is similar, except you have to learn how to look at things in the first place 😂

[spark cobalt]

I think biggest thing I wish I knew when starting was making a huge emphasis on learning how I process information the best instead of relying on some random YouTuber or blogger's way to learn.

Find ways to work with yourself, learn how to learn, that kinda stuff. Don't put too much emphasis on a certain way to learn that someone online pushed to you.

[white relic]

oh that's really good

[stray flint]

Yeah makes sense. this course I'm taking is terrible. It went really quick over CSS, HTML, and JS then went right into Node.js and Express.

[spark cobalt]

From what I've seen and in personal experience, people learn the fastest by just going straight into the dirt and fight through the mud. It's a common feeling to feel like you're not good enough to venture yourself, and at least personally it's held me back for a really long time.

It was like (I'll put in your context) that I can talk a lot about Node and Express but the moment I actually need to do something with it, my brain freezes.

[spark cobalt]

Where my "click" came in was fuck it we ball and my brain stopped freezing and was rewired into how to solve x problem

[stray flint]

Oh yeah I totally get that. When I'm following along in a Python course or something I totally get all the concepts discussed then when I have to actually put them into action I have no idea where to start 😁

[spark cobalt]

Yep. Just gotta start. It's super fucking uncomfortable but you just gotta do something.

[stray flint]

Pseudocode really helps prime my brain but now I need to actually learn how to code lol. How the hell are you all able to look at someone's code and figure out where they went wrong? that seems like voodoo magic right now

[spark cobalt]

(Something that helps is reading other people's code. Learn different ways people approach the same and many problems. You should be reading other people's code a lot.)

[stray flint]

Do you just go on GitHub and look through stuff?

[spark cobalt]

Typically in this server it's either logistical issues or implementation (by language or by library) issue. Most logistical things posted to this server are things many if not all programmers have gone through in some shape or form, implementation is pretty easy to tell and it just comes from experience with the language/library (it's easy to tell because the code will just look wrong.)

Basically you just need to code more.

[spark cobalt]

Yep.

[stray flint]

Okay I'll set some time aside to look through code everyday. Thanks for all the suggestions!

[spark cobalt]

Gl

[gritty rivet]

It's a never ending struggle. I failed intro to programming in college but now I'm an engineer coding in Python every day

Expect it to be hard, but steady effort day after day slowly adds up

[stray flint]

Nice perseverance. I'm going back to Python and sticking with that for a while once I pass this Express course. The hell with JavaScript's weird syntax

[pine sleet]

Find a project on GitHub you want to contribute to. You will have to read and understand their codebase. For me, I've contribute to some of this server's repositories, and I've had to learn why someone programmed something in a specific way

[stray flint]

Yeah I don't think I'm anywhere near contributing level

I'll finish this Python for Everybody course first lol

[spark cobalt]

There's a tag on GitHub for good first issue (might not be exactly worded this way) for new contributors to tackle

[pine sleet]

One never feels ready until they actually contribute for the first time 😁
Like wilder said many repositories have good first issues. And hacktober as well

[stray flint]

oh yeah this looks like some good stuff

[pine sleet]

Would recommend looking at more established projects tbf

[gritty rivet]

You might be surprised. If you've never done a pull request before, closing the most trivial ticket is a worthwhile experience

Here's a great list of projects to look at https://github.com/MunGell/awesome-for-beginners#python

Simply improving the wording of a README file for example isn't a bad start. I think my first PR on GitHub was cleaning up some typo in a JSON dataset

[pine sleet]

agreed. It gives you a feel for the contributing workflow with git which is incredibly important to know

[spark cobalt]

Just to note, you'll wanna be looking at issues with the tag of good first issue, not repositories that have it in their description.

Ditto to above two.

[pine sleet]

@stray flint you may be interested: https://hacktoberfest.com/

[stray flint]

That list of GitHub projects is awesome! Lots of different languages too

I have to bookmark this

[spark cobalt]

(Adding on to this) Since it's your first issue, you'll wanna look for well defined tasks that have no gray area. Smaller/less established projects will generally have a lot of gray area that you'll wanna avoid when starting out. Also, in general bigger projects = more experienced individuals working on it, it's nice to read what they have to say and what's going on in their heads.

[stray flint]

So experienced programmers still work on first issue stuff?

Figured that would be more for noobs like me lol

[spark cobalt]

Huh?

[pine sleet]

Nothing is stopping them from doing it

[spark cobalt]

Projects have non-first issue stuff

[pine sleet]

Well. Issues are issues and someone's gotta do them!

[stray flint]

oh oh I see. I thought first issue meant it was all easy stuff meant to teach beginners

[pine sleet]

I run a couple open source projects and occasionally someone will contribute fixes to good first issue stuff but many of the times either I or one of my teammates will do them

[spark cobalt]

I just mean that experienced developers will be dropping a lot of their knowledge throughout the project (in PRs, issues, forums) that may be fun to read and learn from.

I'm kinda confused with how it got to this

[spark cobalt]

If no one steps up to do it, then yeah as Robin said someone has to do it.

[spark cobalt]

Hmm might be smart to open source some of my active projects

[stray flint]

Sorry about that 🤣. I guess I was under the impression first issue is programs/projects specifically made for beginners to learn that has no real value/intended completion. I have a lot of resources to look over now. Thanks

[buoyant seal]

In our company first issue is usually kind of easy stuff to do, we are lazy to do or not having time to do, because we are busy with more critical stuff.

Often with first issue can be stuff that is easy, but just takes long time to do. That is why lazy 😅

If first issue is remaining not solved for a long time, it can become more important issue and we are resorted to do it more sooner

We never run out of tasks to reach easy tasks in general, but if first issue was for some reason assigned to you, or your were author of it, it can be still processed relatively soon if u will run out of regular tasks (and just wishing to relax a bit)

[vapid jay]

Hello there I’m new here

[gritty rivet]

Welcome... Feel free to ask any career-related question you have in this channel, and there are other channels for other topics

[vapid jay]

Hi, I wanna go into cybersecurity and with my knowledge in python, will it help ?

[white relic]

It might. Really depends on the role. Cybersecurity is a big field

[hearty island]

finally landed another interview after tweaking my resume a bit

or tailoring it or whatever. was on a bit of a dry spell for a couple of weeks

[steel kindle]

How many applications are you submitting a week?

[hearty island]

maybe like 30-40

project manager jobs are pretty hard to find, so i’m looking at business analyst roles too (so i can build up to a project manager role in the future)

[steel kindle]

Ah yeah makes sense, Idk anything about applying for PM jobs

[hearty island]

haha it’s rough, they demand years of experience i don’t have bc it’s typically a senior role

the place i’m currently at would’ve let me be a junior project manager after grad (as in they gave me an offer), but i am shifting to a bigger company for an internship

[gilded vine]

hyy

[modern ore]

waiting for rejection after final interview

[fringe sphinx]

🤞🏻

[marsh wind]

Why project manager tho and not product owner and then product manager

[coarse spoke]

can someone ping gerneral for me i cant find it

[deft herald]

#python-discussion

[hearty island]

true, i should consider it. from what i see product owner needs a lot of experience tho

[steel kindle]

I don’t think many people start with product owner

Actually I don’t even think my company has product owners, just PMs

[delicate bane]

who manages the boards

[steel kindle]

Like trello boards?

[smoky quest]

PM as in Product Manager or Project Manager?

[steel kindle]

Product

[smoky quest]

Product Manager and Product Owners have generally been used interchangeably

[steel kindle]

Ah

Yeah I don’t think we have project managers, we use the same term for all 3

[white relic]

In my experience, project managers are more responsible for making sure the project itself runs smoothly and people management whereas product owners are responsible for ensuring that the product is doing what it's supposed to do

There is no "supposed to be" there are just words, which different companies use in different ways according to how they conceptualize roles internally

[steel kindle]

Ours do both

[smoky quest]

haven't seen much difference between the two in practice anyway

[white relic]

I could have added" in companies with which distinguish the two"

[modern ore]

I got a text saying am I still interested in interviewing, is that a. Bad sign

[white relic]

Scrum is also not "how it's supposed to be"
It is a way to be

[steel kindle]

I mean terms like software engineer, programmer, software development engineer, application engineer, etc are all often used interchangeably

So are project managers and product managers

I’m pretty sure the product managers at my team know how scrum works lol

Lmfao, you seem like an absolute pleasure to work with

[peak halo]

Everything alright here?

[fringe sphinx]

I think that’s probably good. Maybe they want you to talk to one more person? Not unusual for a high level person to want to meet potential hires as a formality.

[steel kindle]

^ it’s pretty common to interview with multiple people

[marsh wind]

In my experience, product owner is the person who guides short and mid term vision and development in a single team for a product or it's part while product manager is about longer term vision and possible overseeing multiple teams. Project manager doesn't really have place in agile but I saw they sometimes manager contracts, resources (human or otherwise)

[steel kindle]

Yeah we actually might have them outside of the product department, but I wouldn’t really know

[marsh wind]

My current company tho tend to lump them all in one person kind of.... Plus scrum master and dev/data scientist in one 😂

[delicate bane]

this is also what i see. i.e. marketing, GTM strategy, some customer stuff, etc. usually goes to Product Manager (obv company-dependent)

[delicate bane]

classic

[marsh wind]

😂 I guess. It's my first job so haven't seen much different... Was interesting experience as I came for tech role and ended up in a bit of all, PO, PM etc.... But I don't think it's a good way

[smoky quest]

and then sometimes, there is also the Product Marketing Manager

[delicate bane]

tell me about it. sometimes its like how many hats can they force you to wear. esp at smaller places 🧢

[delicate bane]

truly. ive actually seen this and im just like 'dont you love job titles'

[smoky quest]

it makes more sense to me to have a PM and PMM, rather than PO and PM
But yes, titles

[delicate bane]

that also makes more sense to me

[marsh wind]

I still have data scientist title 😂

After 3 years of being mostly PO and bit of dev and data engineering

It's a fairly small 30-40 ppl startup tho.

[steel kindle]

We rotate scrum master

[undone glacier]

What about Protobufs

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, my experience is very separate roles for product management: strictly focused on roadmap and requirements, with product marketing being their counterpart on the marketing side, with the responsible executive as the product owner (who is representing the businesses overall interests)… or represented through a Program Manager. GTM is a team responsibility, driven cross functionally. Scrum master and project managers (schedule/task masters) fall inside the engineering team. But yes, terms are very different: for example, I know Microsoft’s product managers are very diff than the usual def of product manager

[native narwhal]

I'm aiming to future job role as a back-end developer, been learning Python, PHP, DBs, the Osi Model - networking, Linux and so much more, and of course I have also learned HTML/CSS and now following courses on JS
There i have a lot of issues, I have strong feeling of dislike for the front-end of web development I don't like JS at all
And Its hard for me to decide how much JavaScript is enough, do I as a future back-end dev need to know how to code with JavaScript?

[fringe sphinx]

I’ve gone a very long time knowing very little web dev, and only recently started dabbling because I need it for side projects. Many backend devs only need a basic understanding of web tech: I think it’s good to learn a little, but you don’t need to be expert (unless you apply for a web dev role)

[fringe sphinx]

What you’re describing makes a lot of sense to me: start by learning a little about a lot. Just make sure you practice actually writing code, and not just learning about things.

[native narwhal]

Definitelly practicing, but I am spending way too much time on JS and I plan to avoid it completely, that's why I was wondering how much of it do I need in a team where I don't work with it

[vapid jay]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[fringe sphinx]

If you’re not working in it, you don’t need to know it. It’s nice to have familiarity with it, since it pops up in many contexts, but def don’t need it

[spark cobalt]

Nope.

Sounds like you haven't gotten comfortable with one language yet. Pythons a great start. I'd just solely focus on Python instead of 10 other different things.

[native narwhal]

But I have gotten un-comfortable with JS though 😄

[spark cobalt]

You won't need JS though.

[fringe sphinx]

I’m uncomfortable with Js too!

[native narwhal]

But you do know it in depth lol 🙂 I wanna take that a step further, and not even learn JS

[fringe sphinx]

If you don't want to learn it, don't learn it. Plenty of things to learn, you can't learn them all.

[native narwhal]

I got that part, the other one that bugs me is if I can be competent on a team without JS 😄

[steel kindle]

That’s interesting. Our product managers usually work on a pretty small section of a product, and scrum management is done by the scrum team collectively

[opal hull]

Is it possible to get a job that pays well solely with expertise in python and the languages for web development (js, html & css)

[smoky quest]

You can see some examples of real world career ladders:

• https://blog.intercomassets.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Intercom-PM-job-ladder-Logo.pdf
• https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/product/product-manager-role/
• https://engineering.gusto.com/a-framework-to-help-product-managers-achieve-their-potential-2/
• https://www.dropbox.com/s/5egjhdeo9ls3ugs/OpenTable - Product Management Careers at OpenTable v2.pdf?dl=0

[steel kindle]

Those might be the only technical skills you need, but there’s a lot of other things you’d need to know

[pine sleet]

Hi folks! I've a career fair coming up here in a month or so, figured I should clean up and improve my resume. Would appreciate any feedback and will try to incorporate it :D

[torn matrix]

Hello guys I'm a 2021 passed out student i got placed in a company but I was unable to do document verification because of some issue I didn't have my original degree marksheets and now in those two years did random jobs and I had my marksheets issue resolved meanwhile I learnt python , dsa but it's getting hard for me to get a job I've made countless applications but didn't hear back from anyone do you guys have any suggestions for me any inputs would be helpful .

[supple fossil]

I was recruited to work for a major company, on a contract to perm position.

Some context, there were 3 engineers on my team, including myself. One was here for at least like 20+ years and is going to retire soon.

The other engineer is less experienced than I am, he'd only been a full time programmer for one year (though he went through a bootcamp).

I was hired to do a project, and was told once my contract was up it would convert to a permanent position. They liked the fact that I had experience managing people, and at this point I've worked for a few companies and coded many tools.

Well my boss retired a few weeks ago, and told me there was a hiring freeze. But she managed to get my contract renewed.

I am grateful to be working but I am shocked.

To make things weirder, they gave the less experienced person the directive to start learning C# because the most senior dev on our team has a bunch of code written in that language.

I can't tell what's going on, I have anxiety and imposter syndrome, but I work really hard and have hit every deliverable timeline. The senior dev sometimes makes comments about how I code, not the most positive.

Not sure... Any advice? I was going to start looking for work, not sure what else I can do. My contract was for 12 months, and we are in month 7.

[buoyant seal]

Not going to need it potentially ever. In 98%+ cases it is Rest APIs and message queues/event streaming stuff.
Half of backend job common duties today is dealing with rest APIs
Another half with Relational dbs

Using protobufs is over engineering, their higher cost for implementing and usage is just not worth it in most of cases, You aren't going to need them, unless u have very specific project when they are justified

[pastel thunder]

I was provided ssh access of ubuntu 22.04.3 for academic research
I have to install cuda and nvidia everything myself.
Problem i see:

now why dont i see type of nvidia device? and how to install nvidia-drivers if i cant see its type

[uncut mountain]

hello

[brazen island]

IME career fairs have a lot of HR / recruiters / business developer type folk. Your resume is too technical for them.

[uncut mountain]

I need to learn data science any advices

[dense remnant]

Ehhhhh, university

Data science positions are very academic, most require Master's degrees or PhDs.

But if you want to study on your own as a hobby that's fine, study SQL, Python, etc. And a lot of math, calculus to probability

The majority want to get into data science because of the hype of AI/ML. I wouldn't recommend that if that's your reason man, at least for me, it's looks 10 times better and more future-proof to do SWE + ML. In that way you can be a Data Engineer, or a Machine Learning Engineer, also learn cloud

[faint quarry]

elllo

[white relic]

Well, I'm impressed.
What are you looking for from the career fair? Internships?

My main feedback is that it feels a little wordy. I'd cut down on the adverbs like "successfully", "effectively" - they aren't weight bearing

You also have a mix of past and present tense that is just slightly jarring IMO. But its a nitpick

[fringe sphinx]

My usual feedback is: make it clear you can/have been writing code in the very first bullet. The security stuff is impressive, but it’s not clear what -you- actually did.

[true harness]

ya. if you're looking for software positions, the security stuff isn't too relevant

[fringe sphinx]

You have a great story, just need to make sure someone glancing at it realizes how technical you are: that you’ve reviewed -many- packages (read a lot of code) and written code to help with this process.

[harsh river]

or that you were able to automatize that at all

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, maybe it’s also the organization name being repeated in the header and sub header. Normally the header is the organization, and sub header is your title/role. This is an opportunity of expressing what you did. Like: Code Vulnerability Analyst (or something like that). Similarly for PyDis: it’s a great role, just need someone to ‘get’ it without having to put much thought. Talk about mentoring new programmers, etc.

[true harness]

ya an example header would probably be something like
Vipyr Security
Core Developer
(or the other way around)

[fleet reef]

Hey that’s my name too!
||https://youtu.be/FKtG4qv4nr8||

[harsh river]

is that the spiderman meme

[fleet reef]

Uh…. IDK I don’t watch Spider-Man

[white relic]

I knew what it was going to be and I still clicked
Why did I do that

[pine sleet]

Yah, software engineering internships. But tying that back into what @brazen island and @fringe sphinx said (thanks for the feedback, by the way) it seems like I need to focus more on the SWE aspects of my projects and volunteer experience rather than the security stuff

[brazen island]

I'm not sure you need to remove the security stuff

[true harness]

i wouldn't remove it. i would include it, but just in a later bullet

[brazen island]

BillyBobby's feedback is 100 % spot on, just need to make sure the person reading it "gets" it. I'll let him word it better 🤣

[white relic]

A question to ask yourself might be: what are the two or three most important words in a given bullet point? And can you move those words as close as possible to the start of the line and trim down everything else so that it supports those

[fringe sphinx]

oh, yah, that's all I was gonna say... not necessarily remove, just emphasize. I think I had the same conversation with.. I dunno, rem? let me dig up the convo

Yah, check out this thread... #career-advice message (this is the end of the thread, more or less)

[pine sleet]

Yeah I'm kind of averse to removing it entirely because I feel like it also expresses impact.. but in reality I did very little of the actual cybersecurity stuff. I mostly built up our systems

[brazen island]

Just remind yourself HR, sales and mid management might read this and they don't know anything about this stuff

[unkempt pulsar]

Good evening everyone. I have been in this server for some time and joined with intentions of communicating with people that codes, develops and etc. Sadly due to lack of discipline i haven't been learning anything but i will start now. Hope to discuss code related stuff with you all in the future

[brazen island]

It's not about sounding cool and impactful to fellow developers, it's about sounding impactful to them

[fringe sphinx]

Oh see, that doesn't come across at all (and that's great)

[brazen island]

E.g., the worker node stuff has too much detail (in the original version)

[fringe sphinx]

I'm just thinking out loud, but: You want the recruiter to look at your resume and go: Wow, Robin sure has a bunch of: hands-on coding experience, knows a lot about systems and infrastructure, is volunteering to mentor and guide new programmers (potential future leader!), is involved in malware analysis in the Python community, etc.

Sorry, maybe that's too much for a recruiter. More simply: Robin is far more involved in the community (both hands-on and as a mentor) than most Freshmen.

[unkempt pulsar]

I have a question. Is it really possible to learn coding languages by yourself via internet, some bootcamps and get hired without any diploma or something?

[harsh river]

The first, yes, the latter it’s hard , you can read up on #career-advice message

[unkempt pulsar]

Thanks i will check it now

[brazen island]

I should drop my resume some time as an example of how I do things 👀 . In general though I always tailor it a bit to specific roles but you can't do that at a job fair

[true harness]

leak it 👀

[white relic]

I haven't updated mine in ages, I could probably use some of my own advice

[fringe sphinx]

I think the secret with a lot of these resumes are: they're an appetizer, not the entree. Nobody is going to read the bullets in great detail. They're looking to see if you're interesting and relevant to the job, and if you are, they'll ask more questions. Too many words, bullets, etc is just distracting. 5 bullet descriptions never get read (by me).

[brazen island]

This, a 110 %!

[pine sleet]

Thanks for the great feedback, all! I've got a better direction as to what to do with my resume now :D

(Also I didn't even think about the target audience... I'd just assumed it'd be technical people and they'd know what I was talking about)

[vapid jay]

i want to learn python

[fringe sphinx]

Head over to #python-discussion , they can point you at some resources & learning material!

[vapid jay]

thanks

but i want to use python as schiping

[harsh river]

schiping?

[vapid jay]

like MaxPhizer

[white relic]

who you're shipping python with doesn't seem related to career discussion

[vapid jay]

hacks LoL

[floral rain]

Can anybody give me a tip?

I'm taking an online python course. been coding for couple of months now. I already know how to read, write, delete files using python script, can also make some basic apps with tkinter like a quiz game that generates a new set of questions every time you run the progam, I also have a knowledge with pandas library, can also interact with API's with requests modules (that's basically how i regenerate new sets of questions for my tkinter quiz app), can also automate sending emails and sms,
can catch exceptions with try/except block, also have basic knowledge with css and html, and before I forgot; of course I know how to make class and functions. one of the projects I've made so far is a program that will look for cheap flights with the help of kiwi/tequila API and automatically send an email to the user when it finds one.

here's the problem.

I want to continue learning but I'll be needing a PC to get more advanced which is something I cannot afford 'cause I am just a student yet. I am just using pydroid3 (python IDE for android).

Can anyone give me a tip on how can I get a job with these basic knowledge I have? like studying something specific that will open even a little opportunity without needing a PC? just so I can buy one and continue with the course. Thank You so much, in advanced, for the respect!.

[pine sleet]

You can ask in #python-discussion

[sour verge]

oops sorry

[steel kindle]

I think your best bet would be getting another job and saving money for a PC

[hearty island]

guys i applied for an NSA position and it’s saying my resume has been forwarded to the hiring manager because it passed the initial sourcing criteria

if this turns into an interview and i do well… maybe i have a chance of landing a job there

[peak halo]

you'd probably have to move to Maryland. which would be a very terrible thing.

[hearty island]

why is that terrible

[pine sleet]

because maryland

[hearty island]

😭😭😭

[gritty rivet]

I would take Maryland over the majority of US states I suppose

[hearty island]

i mean good chance i still get rejected

but i can’t get anywhere with that attitude

[topaz tree]

hi there

[hearty island]

is it bc of crime? high living costs?

[green dawn]

Where can I find jobs online as a python dev

[pine sleet]

LinkedIn or Indeed

[green dawn]

K

[deft herald]

google job search isn't bad either

[white relic]

yes and yes, but the most depressing thing about living in Maryland for me was how bad the service was at almost any store or restaurant.
I moved from small town Texas to near Baltimore. The difference was striking. I never had a problem with my order at a Sonic in Texas. I had to stop going to Sonic in Maryland because they always took forever and made mistakes >50% of the time. (And no, it wasn't just one location, or just Sonic.)

There are very beautiful parts of the state, but as an NSA employee you'd not be living terribly close to those.
Mission BBQ is solid though.

[hearty island]

oh no 😭😭😭

[white relic]

I don't hate Maryland. I lived there for years, I made good money, I have good memories and friends there. But people don't dream of moving there. They either are born there or move for work, and IMO it shows.

I understand NSA can be a pretty cool place to work. (I didn't)

[quartz pasture]

Atleast confirm me this online degrees are just as good as 4year degrees on campus?

[steel kindle]

They probably aren’t generally speaking

[smoky quest]

It's about the degree. As long is it the same (bachelors, masters, etc.) it doesn't matter if you got it online or not. Obviously with exceptions

[hearty island]

meh, good chance the hiring manager says nah fam and just selects another candidate. never know

[gritty rivet]

Is a community college degree just as good as one from an Ivy League school? No. Not in terms of reputation, or content or the social connections you will make.

Online degrees are generally on the lower end of that scale, but that doesn't mean they are bad

Probably the biggest disadvantages will be social. Will you be able to get good internship experience, and if not, how will you make up for it?

Overall I'd say that all else being equal, in person is better, but if that's not feasible you'll be fine

[pine sleet]

Yeah. Much better to have a BS CS from online school or community college than not have one at all

[quartz pasture]

I would still have a chance at a career?

[white relic]

Yes. Your career is what you make of the opportunities you get. If you have the opportunity to go to an Ivy, that's going to be pretty good. If you don't have that opportunity but you could go to community college, that's still a net positive. Just because other people with more money and better connections could go to a better school, doesn't mean it's pointless to do anything else because you'll never be that guy

And just generally don't compare yourself to other people. If you can't go to an Ivy it does you no good to dwell on how much more successful you might be if you could.

Realizing you weren't the one who mentioned the Ivy League so maybe I'm overreacting

[gritty rivet]

Sure... Go on LinkedIn and and search for people who graduated from WGU or wherever you might be considering. You'll find at least some of them doing reasonably well. Ask them for their advice.

[peak halo]

@gritty rivet @pine sleet at least in the US, "community colleges" don't award bachelors degrees

[gritty rivet]

I assumed the same before someone corrected me. https://www.coursera.org/articles/can-you-get-a-bachelors-degree-at-community-college

[peak halo]

The only definition of "community college" that I'm familiar with requires that it not offer any bachelor's degrees by definition.

(and that by offering a bachelors degree, it becomes a regular university)

[hearty island]

i’m like 95% sure they only offer associates degrees

(but i may be wrong)

[steel kindle]

Some of them definitely offer bachelors degrees

Community college has more to do with the funding structure afaik

Although college and university are a bit different I believe. Universities offer graduate degrees.

[gritty rivet]

That was precisely my assumption until I saw that this is clearly no longer the case, at least not in every state. The link I included shows this very clearly

[peak halo]

I think this renders "community college" meaningless.

[gritty rivet]

That's a reasonable opinion, but it doesn't change the fact that many of them have started doing it anyway

It kind of makes sense given declining enrollment and the increasing uselessness of two year degrees except as a stepping stone to another degree. The concept of community college is relatively new and may continue to change

!rule ad

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[frosty halo]

It's a legit event

[gritty rivet]

Doesn't matter

[versed locust]

im in hs right now but i wanna get really good at comp sci before i get to college/workforce. ive been programming for about 6 years now. should i spend a lot of time working on projects? shoudl i have like 10 small projects? 1 big one? no projects at all? whats looks best and will teach me the most

[gritty rivet]

At this stage I would focus on exploring. Build whatever you want to build and whatever will help you keep stretching your skills.

[versed locust]

but ive lowk been doing that for a while. dont you think i should maybe do something more like professional?

[smoky quest]

No one said you could not explore more technical areas.

The best thing you can do now is:

• Make sure you have good grade so you can get into the college of your choice
• Continue to explore and do things. Make mobile apps, websites, robots, iot, your own programming language, compression tools, encryption tool, your own kernel module, etc. It will help dive deeper and learn what you like and dislike

You can even pick up text book materials if you want

[versed locust]

this is all very helpful. thank you so much!

[hallow hollow]

simple help needed if you know text allignment and pillow

https://discord.com/channels/267624335836053506/1162607553943969812

please don't ban me last time I was in c++ they banned me and then I had to start learning python

[versed locust]

💀

[smoky quest]

There is an easy trick: follow the rules and don't spam irrelevant channels

[hallow hollow]

[fringe sphinx]

If you think you’re a good programmer, and want to stand out in 4 years or so; get involved in a long-term activity or project. It’s hard but: long running efforts tend to lead to all the bigger engineering problems (collaboration, issue tracking, test cases, etc). One way to start is getting involved in an open source project that interests you. Many of them welcome newcomers; even if they start bug reporting/ reproductions/ etc. Volunteering in something that interests you is also fulfilling, and bonus if it’s tech related. -Any- tech related work or hobbies or volunteering looks good; even if it’s not programming.

[hasty copper]

hey anyone of u guys know about fintech and stuff?

[white relic]

Some do. If I were one, what would you ask me?

[spark cobalt]

No tech scene. Harder to network, harder to hop to a new job, etc.

[vapid jay]

whats being a software engineer like? is it a real stressful job i heard competition is pretty fierce

[true harness]

the stress varies depending on the company. competition is fierce though

[vapid jay]

leetcode is gonna kill me , ive never heard of it but it already sounds horrific. damn competition is fierce i guess makes sense for a high paying job

i wonder how im gonna stand out 😭 i guess im still not even a graduate yet and im like real young but damn i was thinking this stuff was a wild west needing people fr

[true harness]

well, they need good people and most people aren't. so just be good 👍

[supple fossil]

what do people do when the page starts filling up with too much work experience

[vapid jay]

damn well i better do that then 🤣, time to develop 10 apps and upload them onto playstore

[supple fossil]

I don't have enough space for my "specialized skills" section for search term

[true harness]

you'll need to take other stuff out if you want to put more stuff in

[ivory compass]

You joke about that but I think trying to get your apps to the public would be a good experience and allow you to encounter problems you wouldn't have had . Like if you were at a bootcamp for an example

[hearty island]

oh crap. so if i get it, should i not take it?

[spark cobalt]

It's just some cons to be aware of. It (idk what the job is) is ultimately probably better than nothing.

[hearty island]

agreed, anything is better than graduating with zero job

now is the time to really get out there and land one

[vapid jay]

i see, well seems like a good project for school holidays i guess

[spark cobalt]

The first offer I got was a job located in Bismarck ND. Turned it down because of the reasons I said earlier.

[vapid jay]

atleast ill be starting young and suffering young

[hearty island]

i would've had a job for a third party administrator in HC making around 75K, but i said no for a larger company's internship

[spark cobalt]

@vapid jay Build something you're passionate about. Avoid "building for resume" type projects (i.e., a bunch of small Playstore apps that don't do much, that don't invite people to be curious about what you're capable of, etc.).

[hasty copper]

i idnt get that hehe

[spark cobalt]

If you're young, you have time to explore or really hunker down on something you're super passionate about.

[hearty island]

i'm kind of worried i made a huge mistake, but working for large companies doesn't just happen for me, not yet at least and i have a feeling that it will progress my career

[vapid jay]

so basically have fun? well if so thanks sir!

[vapid jay]

well why do you think im here lol , to have fun and hey if im good at this ill get a real good job maybe

[spark cobalt]

Yep. You'll learn the most that way, and hey if you like what you have fun doing, making a career out of it would be great. Very few people in the world can really say they enjoy their job

[vapid jay]

thats actually sad now that i think about it, damn yall lives kinda gloomy ☠️ .

[supple fossil]

is 6 years coding experience considered midlevel

[spark cobalt]

People are more inspired by people putting their passion into some code or some product, not 10 Playstore calculator/sudoku/weather apps

[spark cobalt]

I'd say so yeah.

[vapid jay]

WAIT THATS MID

[spark cobalt]

I enjoy my job, but just saying that most people don't.

[supple fossil]

is 6 years attractive on a resume, should I even add that

[vapid jay]

true that sounds terribly boring

[spark cobalt]

Wouldn't your 6 years be under your work experience for your resume? Why would your work experience not be there?

[supple fossil]

mid level engineer with over 6 years of professional working experience

[spark cobalt]

Also in terms of standing out, think about the amount of other kids building those 10 apps. It's definitely not a way to stand out.

[true harness]

don't say "mid level" that just sounds weird

[supple fossil]

Highly motivated self-taught software engineer with over 6 years professional experience, and a passion for creating impactful solutions for businesses. Experienced in ETL Development, Web Development, DevOps, Data Engineering, DBA, CI/CD pipeline, and Cloud.

[spark cobalt]

An example of a project section of a kid that just did what they enjoyed (all these done in HS)

[vapid jay]

yeah i can see that

[vapid jay]

ooooooo looks so cool! and his own operating system , seems chalenging. I wonder why operating systems are named after food

[spark cobalt]

Example of projects by a kid (same age as previous guy) that just copied YouTube

[vapid jay]

mmmmm pizzzaOS, just love being a starved deveeloper

[vapid jay]

ew......groceries ☠️

[spark cobalt]

This is obviously two things very far apart in distribution of resumes, but one clearly grabs the reader in and really makes them think "what else does this kid know?" And the other doesn't

Resume = Advertisement for yourself. Moral of story: don't do calculator webapp

[ivory compass]

Depends on the job doesn't it? You don't have to create a complex system but a system that can be used by a business. Like if someone is hiring for web development, I don't think those OS projects matter

[vapid jay]

ones got me yawning and ones got me enticed, kinda wanna make my own GRAPEFRUITOS thing that sounds cool.
but thanks for the advice it makes sense and sounds really practical when it comes to being hired in various places

[spark cobalt]

These resumes were by freshmen CS students for internships.

[vapid jay]

yeah but amagine your limiting yourself in being hired in all sorts of places.
i think.

[spark cobalt]

No, not necessarily that

But you're looking at minimal effort vs maximum effort in a student building their own stuff. Internships assume you don't know shit.

[ivory compass]

I give you this, they want someone that can transform this data they have into the database into something digestible for a client. They see that OS resume, instant reject. They see someone that has data analytics projects with the tools very similar to the ones they use. Who do they pick?

[spark cobalt]

Again, this is for applications for internships, not a full time job. Also those are two completely different jobs requiring completely different skills.

[ivory compass]

we're talking about resumes and advertising yourself, I am just stating that the relevance of the resume matters far more to get your eyes to the hiring manager

[fringe sphinx]

Leetcode easies are a reasonable goal for every cs major. It’s basically practices at same level of difficulty as DSA homework. Leetcode is just a hiring screen, not the hiring decision: and I think it’s highly unhealthy to grind leetcode for excessive time (but it is a necessary evil today because of how OA’s work).

[fringe sphinx]

To stand out, read this, it’s spot on: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-software-engineers/

[spark cobalt]

How about this: A student applies for an OS job with that resume and a student applies for a web development job with that resume. Do you think student A (OS) will stand out amongst the applicants as much as student B (web)

I've only seen one student that's gone as far as to build their own OS. Every other student has something web related on their resume.

[ivory compass]

Yes for a OS job, HR is looking for OS -related things. They will put that web related resume in the trash. I am sorry but that is the truth of the matter.

[spark cobalt]

Then I don't see your point. Clearly Student A is passionate about OS related jobs and will apply for them. The same isn't as clear as Student B.

[fringe sphinx]

This year is a terrible year for entry level positions. It wasn’t like this a year ago… what happened was a bunch of hiring freezes, big tech layoffs, etc due to fear of a recession (and perhaps a correction after Covid years)

[spark cobalt]

I'm trying to be as fair as I can with both resumes. Comparing apples to oranges is unfair to both. Both resumes will probably get trashed for data analytics job.

[summer roost]

This all seems obvious to me - different companies want to hire programmers to do different things, and so they'll prefer people with different skills

[ivory compass]

What I am seeing is you are comparing two resumes and saying OS resume will stand out. I am saying he will only stand out for OS related jobs. That is all.

He will not just stand out by what his projects are, that is a nonsense

[spark cobalt]

Yes, it will stand out. Student B's resume not so much.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, from a pile of resumes, I’ll (generally speaking) skim the first bullet of most recent job for -anything- relevant to the job. Once I see that, I’ll look closer.

[ivory compass]

exactly

[spark cobalt]

Nonetheless, both of those resumes, as I've mentioned two times before, are for internships, not for full time specialized positions.

[fringe sphinx]

(That said, for entry levels, my filter is very low)

[vapid jay]

Oh jeez

Thankfully i can wait a few years and hopefully once i get old enough maybe then it migbt be better? Idk how 2 or 3 years might be

[summer roost]

I'm hearing that entry level hiring has picked up a lot over the last few months, and continues to pick up steam. Q1 and Q2 were definitely rough, but Q3 and Q4 less so, it seems

[fringe sphinx]

I believe it is and will continue to be hard to find competent sw engineers.

[spark cobalt]

And the conversation has been in context of how you could stand out amongst competition which the two resumes were brought up to show someone that's invested time to create something they're passionate about vs someone that copied from YouTube.

Not sure how we got so off tangent and how the original context got thrown out the window but alas

[vapid jay]

Wait competent? So does that mean i just gotta be good at what i do and ill do well? That doesnt sound as gloomy as i thought

[spark cobalt]

That's nice to hear... Lot of doom and gloom right now

[fringe sphinx]

My theory, but no data, is also you’ll see VCs spending again.. they can’t sit on their money, and hiring is cheaper than it’s been for a long time.

[vapid jay]

Average comp sci debate lmao

[ivory compass]

Explain your defination of competant.

[summer roost]

sounds plausible

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno? I know it when I see it 🙂 (to quote a certain Supreme Court justice)

[spark cobalt]

Basic communication skills, trainable (basic listening and processing skills that can take advice and make action out of it), mature approach to solving problems (in comparison to just coding without thinking, otherwise known as monkey coding) is good enough in my book for entry level SWE.

[ivory compass]

Fair enough

[spark cobalt]

Finer lines they'll learn on the job anyways

[spark cobalt]

Why did hiring become cheaper?

It would help make the risk of investment a little lower, but just curious as to why it's happening

[summer roost]

a lot of an entry level interview is figuring out whether someone takes direction well. If I tell them to do something, do they ask questions until they fully understand the problem? Do they put effort into solving the problem even if they can't see the solution from the start? If I suggest an approach, do they take my advice or ignore it? Etc, etc

[fringe sphinx]

Big tech has been/was distorting salary/TCE expectations significantly… small tech could barely afford to hire. Im making an assumption that there’s been a slight reset of salary bands this year that won’t recover to the ridiculous rates of 2020-2022 that I saw.

[summer roost]

layoffs across the industry have tempered wages. Someone who got laid off from Google 6 months ago might be willing to accept a job for 50% of the pay 6 months later.

[spark cobalt]

Fair enough. Less jobs = People more desperate and will take lower pay than no pay.

[ivory compass]

For entry level jobs has there ever been an expectation to build a project from scratch without guidance? I'd be interested to know after seeing some stuff on reddit that have that experience

I think it was at a startup with mainly juniors lol

[summer roost]

that's never been the norm, but it's certainly possible that some company did that

[fringe sphinx]

Ugh, I’ve heard some stories here of people who have zero mentorship and are thrown into projects with no support. (But agree with gg)

[summer roost]

there's always bad companies who hire inexperienced people because they're cheaper, and then expect them to do the work with no support. Those companies are definitely not typical, but they definitely do exist

that's something you're more likely to see at smaller and less reputable shops. By the time you're up to mid-sized businesses with investors and a competent legal and HR department, you wouldn't expect to see that

[spark cobalt]

If not from scratch, do you mean like taken from GitHub and tweaked a little bit?

Guidance is a spectrum. If someone copied line by line from some YouTube video, that is no good. Any project worth putting on your resume would likely need some sort of guidance through documentation/how other people approached a certain problem/etc.

[summer roost]

I think they were more asking about the work that you do once you've been hired, if I understood the question right

[spark cobalt]

Oh, I read the two sentences separately

Startups getting sketch

[fringe sphinx]

What?

[spark cobalt]

Sketchy

[summer roost]

it shouldn't be surprising that small companies are more likely to have sketchy business practices than large ones

[spark cobalt]

Especially in current economy yeah

[summer roost]

lots of those small companies with bad practices will just die off due to poor management, others will graduate on to better management as they grow

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, seen both (sketchy practices at big tech too… look at the reputation of big game companies). Most VC backed startups I’ve seen are pretty cautious and ethical. (The VCs inject experienced operators/etc)

[spark cobalt]

I've been on Discord in my car in a Costco parking lot for an hour. Imma go, cya lads

[summer roost]

definitely agree that a VC backed startup is more likely to have good practices than one without VC funding, and definitely agree that game studios are an outlier in terms of treatment of employees

[spark cobalt]

Oh that's a good distinction between startups

[summer roost]

I'd say that as companies grow, they reach a point where reputation starts to matter a lot for hiring, and poor business practices would cause a drag on their reputation that's hard to overcome. I think game dev studios are only able to get away with their shitty culture because of how many people see building games as their dream job

there's enough True Believers for the studios to sustain predatory practices, basically. I don't think that's the case for most other industries

[fringe sphinx]

I’ve operated a small business for a long time: employee retention is half my job. If I don’t create a favorable environment, they won’t stay. (Not disagreeing or agreeing, just sharing my view from the cheap seats)

[supple fossil]

hows the job market for coders these days?

[balmy spade]

Depends on where you are. In the states the market in general is in an unpleasant but not unworkable condition. Far from the best, not close to the worst we've seen.

[supple fossil]

I am working remote now, in the US, and was hoping to continue that. I am on a 12 month contract, and my manager retired 7 months into the contract. She tells me she was able to get my contract extended but there is a hiring freeze right now (in fact there were a lot of people let go on the 12th), this is a fortune 500 company.

So I think I need to start looking for work just in case. My lower level engineer was instructed to start learning C#, so that he could maintain the code for the most senior person on the team, who is also supposed to retire soon.

I am a mid level programmer, with managerial experience, and I was hired on a 12 month contract which I was told would convert to a permanent position, they were looking for more experienced devs to hire so they could take over the roles.

But now it looks like they are firing people, and I think what they told me about the contract renewal is bs

sorry for venting

[smoky quest]

Sorry to hear about it!
But yeah, hedge your bet, especially considering that hire may slow down with the end of year festivities

[buoyant seal]

It depends on a company and if u like to do researches and to code.

• If u a fine to research and investigate problems in days
  • and interrogate people for all unmentioned stuff. Hehe it is always detective and police game.
• If u are fine to solve hard to solve bugs, with trying one theory after another one until u found the right answer
  • brings big satisfaction finally to solve it and hearing big thanks, but the process itself is kind of fun too
• if u a fine just to code thousands code lines for solutions in a week
  • I rather enjoy working on any code I created. Each time I seek perfection hard to achieve. It is not always time to just code though

Then u should be good

[buoyant seal]

It can be somewhat stressful, but in good companies all your stress problems are only in your head and done to yourself on your own

In bad company it can be worse though. Hearing all the time bad stuff about game dev

[steel kindle]

It’s definitely at least a bit competitive, especially at larger companies. Like others said stress definitely varies by role, but my job is not stressful in the slightest.

Although I didn’t find the job market that bad, you just need to apply a lot.

[vapid jay]

Thanks the code interrogation stuff sounds fun infact i think i dont mind all that , doesnt seem too bad!

[buoyant seal]

Some people can find it frustrating though. They panic, not able to think what to do next, or don't realize when they should just ask for help because it is data they can't acquire in any other way. Or too afraid to ask stuff and etc. There is need for certain minimal level of communication skills and confidence.
and persistence to keep going.

[vapid jay]

in the end communication is the best skill for people like us(also horrific considering most of us are introverts lol)

[supple fossil]

I think Q1 is not terrible for the job market? New year new projects to complete

[white relic]

The tech scene in the DC area is actually quite healthy. It doesn't make headlines because of the nature of defense work but there's plenty of work to be had...
... If, that is, you're able to get a DoD security clearance. The unemployment rate for cleared engineers is zero. The work/life balance is also generally quite good. Defense is an industry that's sheltered from the economic pressures affecting most markets. Great place to work when other people are stressing about layoffs. You are more sensitive to election cycles and when Congress can't pass a budget, but even then, you're not likely to be let go entirely, more like furloughed temporarily (happened at my company several times while I was in defense, not to me though).

But Wilder is correct about it being hard to network and hop to a new job. That is, the scope of your career quickly becomes limited to other agencies and defense contractors, who will care about your security clearance and not about the details of your prior work. After a few years defense becomes kind of hard to escape because of that.

There are pros and cons to making defense your career. There are mostly pros and few cons to accepting a job in defense if you have no other offers (I did). There are no cons to doing a few rounds of interviews and finding out more.

It's not all black and white. Every industry has its quirks. If you're the kind of person who can thrive in a kind of conservative and bureaucratic workplace that pays decently (not top though) and is otherwise more or less as I've described, it may well be a great option for you.

(Worth noting though... If you have dual citizenship or have spent a lot of time in a country like China, have a lot of gambling debt and a hard drug addiction... or you just don't want the feds digging in to your past... it probably won't work out.)

[buoyant seal]

kind of.
The first skill i would say is actually persistence to keep going, some hunch to check different theories of what can be a problem or a solution, ability to read documentation on your own. Ability to learn tech stuff pretty much (we learn all the time during our work). That makes ground to make you able being software engineering in terms of first skills.
Communication comes as second most important thing to make you at work team player and capable to work in a company in general. (or interacting with clients)
Especially good if you are able to do self studies (a lot) (and reading books) and continue to become better in your own free time. That makes your tech skill set especially great.

That is at least from the point of view of a person which chose as career path, invidial developer/invidial making impact with his tech skills first.
Career ladder for people going into eventually more management roles at a senior roles will be different

[buoyant seal]

It is kind of important having healthy measure of self confidence 🤔 helps both in just dealing with tech, and talking with people.
As long as this self-confidence did not grow into arrogance 😅

[steel kindle]

For me the biggest cons we’re having to maintain a clearance, work seemed to be mostly in person, and the pay wasn’t as high as other sectors

Although on the pay thing, it seemed really good given the job security, and was definitely above average. I mainly didn't want to work for that particular company.

[white relic]

Yeah that's pretty accurate to my experience

[desert garden]

hi all. I'm new here (and Discord as a platform in general), so please forgive my ignorance. I'm the director of product for a B2B SaaS EdTech platform and looking for python pros to add to our team of 9 (5 of them are python engineers) / we're in private sector - doing work for public school districts. I've been trying to understand whether it's "legal" to post available jobs anywhere in python community on discord and can't find that answer. Anyone knows? I don't want to be banned on day one of being here. 🙏 🙂

[white relic]

Nope, not allowed here. You wouldn't be banned though (unless you made a real nuisance of yourself, like spamming repeatedly after being warned)

!rule paid

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[desert garden]

makes sense. thank you for a quick pointer @white relic

[desert garden]

also, just noticed the title of this channel 👍

just curious, when you are in search for a job/career as a python engineer, where do you look (given no network assistance involved) - python.org jobs, linkedin, where?

[white relic]

I'm not really a "Python engineer" more of a digital hardware guy but LinkedIn seems effective

[vapid jay]

i see

[vapid jay]

understandable thanks for the advice

[desert garden]

been scanning the channel above... there's some talk about resumes. I've acquired an opinion recently - I disqualify all candidates that don't bother to write a cover letter when applying cold (without a referral). For context - I run screening and hiring for our company of 25 for all positions (tech or non-tech) - being an engineer, creative, pm and any other hat you can wear within the last 20 years. What do you think about writing cover letters when applying? Is it a chore / annoying to write it? Do you think it's necessary? If you write it, do you care to customize per company/application? do you think just a resume is enough?

[steel kindle]

I don't write cover letters

[delicate bane]

same. no way.

[lapis wind]

Ngl most of the time, I loath writing cover letters.
What I especially loath is when it's done via a 3rd party, so you don't even know much about the company, just some general details about the job, which if that's what you're looking for in a cover letter, then just look at the CV

[desert garden]

simply due to the fact that it doesn't matter in your sector? - being DOD/gov-related mostly? Or do you also not doing that when applying to jobs in other sectors?

[delicate bane]

the last bit. im in healthcare tech.

[lapis wind]

I would just do what 90% of what other candidates do, and just ask ChatGPT to write it for me mostly
Would let me at least keep up a decent rate of applications without having to waste a load of time

[steel kindle]

I mean I work in non government related industry. I have written one before and in general just refuse to write them. I am not sure what the company could be looking for in one that couldn't be foind in my resume.

[fringe sphinx]

It’s also country specific I gather. I haven’t seen a cover letter in a long time (in USA)

[white relic]

I write cover letters when one is requested and I feel there's some context to why I'm applying to the position. Like, it's out of my "normal" but I think there's a reason I should be considered that is hard to convey in a résumé

[desert garden]

those are so easily detectable by the way. From the perspective of a recruiter - if your Cover letter looks like ChatGPT has generated it - it's even worse than not writing it.

[white relic]

I haven't gotten any of those jobs though so idk if my strategy is good or not

[lapis wind]

I know that much, although one does have the ability to read it and make edits

but normally I avoid postings which require cover letters completely

[steel kindle]

^ not worth my time imo

[white relic]

As a person who reviews résumés - I don't read cover letters

[delicate bane]

if im that interested in a company, i would be more likely to cold message someone for a coffee chat or something

[desert garden]

why not?

[white relic]

mostly I don't even see them, somebody forwards me a résumé and that's it

but if I do get one I'm still reading the résumé first

[lapis wind]

I'm here to work, not write an essay on why I think your company is the best and why I would dedicate all my life to it and all my free time (even though that would be a lie)
I either have the demonstratable skills you want, or not. Writing some story around anything else is just wating time.

[buoyant seal]

🤔 i will probably just continue investing in writing good resume
first page as advertisement to attract attention, and optionally 1-2 pages for more information, i have some attractive stuff about made jobs in more detail.
As a code elegantly hopefully crafted with latex 😅 in my private repo and compiled to pdf.

Not seeing a big point to invest into cover letters as not seeing really a point in spent effort / given result for it.
What would be the point, if i already made all the effort to do it in my resume?

[steel kindle]

Yeah cover letters feel disingenuous, I don't really want to work for you and I don't really care about your company generally speaking.

[desert garden]

interesting. I generally don't look for novels in a cover letter. I look for two things: 1) there's something original in it - doesn't even have to have "Dear Hiring Manager" or other crap like that. 2) It's not generated by Chat GPT based on job description inserted (these are very obvious and just give a very bad impression + devalue the whole process because there's immediately a tought in my head that the person applied think that whoever reads that whole creation is stupid enough not to understand how it was produced).

[buoyant seal]

May be, may be i will compile 2 resumes though, with pointing out more my different strengths depending on position i want to pursue more.
I go as backend and DevOps engineer. So i could somewhat fix certain resume versions to be more looking towards Backend stuff and another one towards DevOps engineering.

[steel kindle]

Why are you looking for that?

[white relic]

Why do you filter on cover letters? Do you feel that the quality of candidates is much better that way? Is it more a way of filtering who is willing to comply with arbitrary requirements / wants to go above and beyond? Just a way to reduce the applicant pool to something manageable?

if you are of the opinion that good candidates will write cover letters just because they are good candidates, well, I don't think I agree

[desert garden]

because that tells me that the person is at least somewhat interested in the company they are applying to their application to us is not just one of 100 they sent that day.

[steel kindle]

Ah ok. Yeah from my perspective I am not interested and it is just one of the 100 I sent that day. I personally wouldn't want to work for a company that can't tolerate that. Requiring a cover letter is a bit of a red flag for me, I will only consider if new hires are making 100k+ with good benefits.

[buoyant seal]

Well, i see as a perfect resume
First page is full of buzz words, my education, my job experience very briefly, technologies i worked with. Other stuff that people usually put into first page.
I wish to put my job achievements, complexity of stuff i worked with, high impact things i made and pet projects achievements. I am pretty sure i am just unable to fit all of it into first page in a readable way. That will be reserved for 2-3 page as my idea for my next resume version
Should be good enough structure i think

[desert garden]

you can have that mindset when you apply to large corporations or government jobs. If you apply to smaller teams, startups, teams that normally have work that could be alot more interesting and rewarding for a career - that attitude won't fly. But all of this of course is based on personal goals

[steel kindle]

I mean I am at work to get paid. If you want me to be that invested I would need equity in the project. I am not at work to satisfy myself.

[desert garden]

what's your work experiecce? how many years?

[steel kindle]

In software? Less than one, and that attitude has worked out fine. I've worked in other industries and done jobs that I found fulfilling, but this isn't one of them.

Well, less than one for a big company, I've been doing contracting and research for a year or two longer.

[white relic]

I don't think you can generalize that. I am involved in hiring for a small R&D team. Perhaps I'll ask around Monday who wrote a cover letter - I bet it's no more than 50%

[steel kindle]

If what you're working on is cool I'd like to discuss it in an interview, not spend 30 minutes writing a cover letter for a job I likely won't hear back about.

[buoyant seal]

i see no point in compiling ChatGPT generated stuff. I have important attractive things to tell in my resume as advertisement about me. ChatGPT will not be able to tell things... you know... to express myself? to express what i achieved? to express what i can do?, i am kind of becoming ChatGPT/AI text generator somewhat avoider completely. Disliking it for everything that it brings anywhere 😅

[desert garden]

who wrote and was it any good - could be two different metrics. also depends on a position. Engineers normally have lower numbers, while a position like Product Manager - over 80%

[white relic]

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make there

[steel kindle]

also when I hear things like interesting and rewarding, it makes it sound like you're going to be overworking your employees. The place I currently work is interesting and rewarding, but they don't use that as a selling point because they know people are there to get paid.

[desert garden]

you'd be surprised how proliferate ChatGPT generated cover letters are nowadays... that's why I'm saying that being original vs having all that fluff inserted goes down a lot better.

[delicate bane]

if you go the LI route and you dont mind, lmk how that goes for you. we have a team of 2 that we are thinking of expanding. theres a certain profile of engineers we are looking for if that makes sense.

[lapis wind]

Hence why cover letters in general seem a completely pointless extra step! It's already often a low quality piece of text that people don't read and people don't want to write.

[delicate bane]

atm, the game plan is to do some scoping at an upcoming conference.

[steel kindle]

Why would anybody be specifically interested in working for your company? What makes it not just another job?

[desert garden]

that is indeed a good place to find folks. Which conference are you going to? something coming up soon?

[delicate bane]

ill send you a link. add me

[lapis wind]

At my previous startup, every single member of the team came from purely meeting within open source and previous meet ups at conferences, so they already knew the people somewhat before approaching them. And tbh I think that's a pretty important when you're a small startup where the team can make or break you.

[desert garden]

are you asking about our company specifically or is this a rhetorical question?

[steel kindle]

I mean can you answer it about your company specifically? Why should I treat it like it's not just another job application if it's just another job.

[lapis wind]

That being said, the big nerd conferences Much better than the big corporate type ones which tend to be more about companies trying to sell you on their cloud saas

[desert garden]

how do I do that? newby here, sorry 🙂

[delicate bane]

no worries. if you go to your friend requests, just click accept. or you can try to add me by clicking on my profile

[desert garden]

yes, open source communities are the best. I come from Drupal community myself, but have been working with python team for the last 3 years

[true harness]

i've written like 1 cover letter in like 500 apps

[lapis wind]

Interestingly there are quite a few Cryptocurrency/Blockchain related jobs that seem to have a higher ratio of wanting cover letters

[true harness]

because honestly, when i see "cover letter required" i just skip it 😩

[steel kindle]

^

[steel kindle]

unless I know for a fact that they pay a lot, that's what I am doing

[true harness]

meh. there are enough high paying software companies that don't require a cover letter. and even "low paying" software companies are high paying on an absolute scale, so /shrug

[steel kindle]

yeah, and the high paying ones are never the companies requiring them lol

@desert garden what are you paying devs? with how much experience?

[desert garden]

competitive in both US and offshore markets. there's various ranges for experience and also technologies they specialize in.

[steel kindle]

You can’t give a $ range? Everyone says their salaries are competitive.

[hearty island]

i see, thanks!

[desert garden]

a mid-level US-basedengineer that specializes in web application development using Python / Django, can develop or integrate APIs and understands performance optimization, + does not need too much oversight from senior engineers to get work done, would get $115-135k with us + 100% covered healthcare for themselves+dependants, 401k matching, prodev budget.

[steel kindle]

Is this remote? If not where are you based?

[desert garden]

100% remote. company based in NYC with employees in many different states + offshore

[steel kindle]

Yeah that seems about average for the current market. I still do think that requiring cover letters will definitely turn applicants away given that the job market is pretty favorable for employees currently.

[desert garden]

that's true, but if they are turned away because of the cover letter, than their tenure with us will be short or unproductive anyway. When a person is not interested in a company or it's mission and is simply applying for a job - that will not last on either side. both eventually lost - unless you're a behemoth corporation...

there's such a thing as "happiness" at work. - can understandably be interpreted in different ways.

good night all 👋 thanks for a lively conversation!

[steel kindle]

I would agree with that, but that being said I need to be provided with a reason to be interested in the company. I work for a large corporation and the reason I care is because I am paid well, have good benefits, and work like 30 hours a week. I don’t care about the product we make outside of the fact that it being sold is what pays my salary.

[fringe sphinx]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[steel kindle]

Have a good one

[true harness]

they were just giving an example to dylan. doesn't seem to be advertising

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, just saw the pay ranges/etc

[true harness]

i just don't think it's realistic. an applicant is going to be applying to other companies as well. they can't be interested in every company's mission. it's simply not worth most people's time to write a cover letter. after getting an interview/job is different though, imo. not being invested in what your company does is a bit 🥴 to me, though it seems fine for some people

[white relic]

Why I write cover letters only for special occasions ^

If I'm going to be rejected out of hand for not being sufficiently passionate about planing widgets or whatever, that feels like their loss

[dark thunder]

hello, im a current freshman in college and i had landed my first internship interview. I have really have no internship/interview experience in this field at all so im really oblivious on what type of questions they will ask. the internship position is software developer. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[smoky quest]

You should expect:

• Some technical questions about your projects. For instance diving into some projects
• Leetcode type questions
• Behavioral questions

[dark thunder]

is leetcode type questions guranteed, im a first semester freshman so data structures and algs is something i havent really touched basis with. but as for personal projects i feel like ive done some decent projects and have a deep understanding what the application is

[true harness]

it kinda depends what's expected. if it's targeted to freshmen, then maybe not so much. but they will probably assess your skills one way or another

[dark thunder]

like what do i do if i dont know how to solve a problem.

[smoky quest]

It is pretty much guaranteed.
Algorithms and data structures are the foundation of CS and a go to thing to assess for people who have zero experience but plenty of theory

[true harness]

you could ask for a hint

[smoky quest]

then you say so. The interviewer may or may not help you.
That may or may not make you fail the interview

If the candidate is unable to write code, the company is unlikely to want them as an intern

[dark thunder]

I think my week point as of right now is the fact i havent had much experience with data structures and algs, but like my understanding of git, software testing, and l knowldege of python are somewhat decent for my current position. is it still possible to land a internship with little knowldege of algs and data structures

[smoky quest]

none of these matter if you cannot write code.
To that end, I would suggest:

• Learn about DSA. There is an excellent book called "introduction to algorithms"
• Practice leetcode. There are also other websites like codingame.com, hackerrank, codeforce, etc.

[dark thunder]

in terms of writiing code, do mean like being able to code algorithms? cause ive worked with API's and real time data bases and frameworks such as django.

[smoky quest]

I mean, datastructures and algorithms.
So yes, that includes knowledge of implementing algorithms, understanding and articulating their complexity in runtime and space, being aware and understanding the differences between the main datastructures, etc.

you will be quite limited if you don't know the difference between a list and a dictionary and when to pick one or the other

[dark thunder]

well, things of that nature i have a grasp of. Like ive touched bases of leet code and solved very few problems, but i mostly strugle with time complexity i'd say, and also obviously solving more diffcult problems.

[smoky quest]

best time to learn

[dark thunder]

thanks a lot! ill definitely check out the book, whos the author ?

[true harness]

CLRS

[smoky quest]

I can do better: https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262046305/introduction-to-algorithms/

[fringe sphinx]

A few comments on leetcode style DSA puzzle questions: they're very common for screening. Any CS major should be able to complete a leetcode easy's: it's not a high bar once you've practiced them. Mediums and hard take a little more thought and practice, and while I hate it, it seems to be helpful (for interviewing) to practice mediums and some hards when you're prepping for the OA's for FAANG.

[fringe sphinx]

Interview questions serve two purposes: to screen out the "weak", and to demonstrate how you think. So, you should be able to solve the easy problems (or whatever difficulty the company is using) to get through the screen. But, for the interview, it's perfectly normal to be asked a question you don't know the answer to: some interviews do this on purpose (I do... I want to see how you solve a problem you dont know.. it's not a trivia contest), because we want to see how you think and collaborate.

[left remnant]

Hey I'm making an fb post advertising myself as a gamedev tutor! Would anyone be willing to look at it first and give me feedback on it?

[dawn flume]

SUre

[late terrace]

can anyone help me with a ctf please?

[pseudo marsh]

How to land million dollar job

[near ocean]

Have friends in the right places

[white relic]

Give inflation a few more years

[true harness]

inflation adjustment on salaries? incredible

[buoyant seal]

Have friends on the other side

[brazen island]

Legal requirement in Belgium

I've gone up like 10 + % in a year

[buoyant seal]

relocating to Belgium then 😅

[ivory compass]

Do what other people do to get a million dollar job: win the genetic lottery.

[tidal lake]

like this?

[vapid jay]

So I work at x company but I dislike to job, and the pay is bad. What can I put in my resume? Like working for x, but yet looking for new opportunities?

The current that I have seem to attract on people who look for apprentices
But at the end of the day, it's just an excuse to pay less

[white relic]

You put your job title and the date you began working there and skills you use / accomplishments you've made at the job

you don't put in your résumé why you're looking for more work

[fringe sphinx]

Also, cardinal rule of interviewing: never say anything bad about last place (whether pay or anything else).

[vapid jay]

Likely it's market dependant, but I hadn't any luck with that kind of resume. A small title/description on why I am looking for work, worked better. The last/current resume had something like "I'm a freelancer that is looking for a more stable job. I like to learn new things, I'm a fast learner", since it worked, I keep using that, but I see that they are all looking for apprentices, it attracts wrong demographics

I'd like to mention the current job, because I can't really get calls from 8am to 6pm

[vapid jay]

Ok, btw, a nice way to refuse to show how much I am making? I dunno they always ask that, but once they know, they don't offer any better if not a couple of € extra monthly

[desert garden]

"I'm a freelancer that is looking for a more stable job" may signal that you haven't produced anything of production quality in a long time. I'd avoid saying "freelancer" or "looking for a more stable job". A better version would be "Independent Consultant, looking to contribute my skills to a team-oriented environment long-term." or something to that effect.

[fringe sphinx]

Yes, it's a power move by recruiters. You have to prepare and be comfortable with saying something like: "I'm looking for a competitive offer", "What's the salary range for the position", "I'm flexible and don't want to lock into a number at this point", etc. They might say things like: "Well, we need to know what you're making so we can make sure we're not wasting our time". They'll sound very reasonable, and you just need to be prepared to be reasonable back. You can even throw nonsense out like: "My decision isn't solely about salary, I'm looking for the right challenge and opportunity."

If you google this topic, you'll see lots of videos and articles on how to handle this. Practice it, if you want to, and just decide how you want to handle it: and don't let them pressure you into saying something you don't want to say.

[silk silo]

Data engineering or data science?
I have been thinking about a choice for about a month

[fringe sphinx]

What about them?

[peak halo]

there's so little consistency between companies (if not within companies) as to what a "data scientist" is and does that I don't think it's even useful to talk about it as an occupation.

"data engineer" seems to be used more consistently. If learning a lot about statistics and ML theory doesn't appeal to you, data engineering would probably be a better fit for you than data scientist positions that involve model development.

[wet inlet]

Hi guys, I'm currently a helpdesk technician but hate my job xd. I was wondering what job can you land by learning python please ? if some of you would have any advice pls ?

I know python is used in various field but still not sure in which field I should go

[sturdy quest]

i dont think thats possible with python alone

not that i know of

[spark dove]

I've worked in the recruitment sector for 3+ years.

I can speak for it first hand.
(Though my "industry specific" was building workers) I.e Brickies, Laggers, Sparky's etc etc

[fringe sphinx]

How would you handle this type of question? Genuinely curious, as everyone has a different take

[near ocean]

"What's your budget?"

[spark dove]

Can you give me 5 ish mins??
I'll p.m you.

I'm DESPERATE for a shower first.

Emphasis on the desperate

[buoyant seal]

there is a common transition from help desk technician to Linux system administrators and eventually DevOps engineers

u need more infrastructure knowledge for Linux system administrators
And u need more developed your dev side if u wish to become DevOps engineer (with already learned Linux system administrator as prerequisite)

[wet inlet]

thank you I'll check this path (a bit scared of linux)

[buoyant seal]

Linux is gooooood. Best dev friendly ecosystem. Whole OS is nice development environment. Far better than dealing with Windows 🙂 (speaking as former Windows system admin)

[vapid jay]

I agree with him
The other day someone called because his vpn was not working
I thought maybe there's some wrong config by our part
A collegue get the call, and he finds out that he was trying to use the Company vpn, inside the company network, because he wanted to use some lasers scanners that were in the network
Like what?

[wet inlet]

xd yes sometimes we also get call from user trying to connect to vpn on the company network

[wet inlet]

I'll give it a try, thank you very much 🙂

[buoyant seal]

u a welcome. As thing to mention.
DevOps engineer is a very broad definition that often comes to...
being role with more Ops (helpdesk stuff)
or with more Dev side (almost backend developer pretty much)

for some companies Linux System Administrator and DevOps engineer are pretty much interchangable same roles.

[wet inlet]

btw do you need Network knowledge to become a Linux system administrator ? (tcp/ip , etc...)

[buoyant seal]

So we can say that DevOps engineering is a bridge from Ops/Linux system administration into development in whatever percentage is wished

Although i entered it from development side as a backend engineer which wished to take care of infra. My company has DevOps engineers in a more Dev strong definition of it.

[wet inlet]

I see, I live in France I hope it's the same

[buoyant seal]

i work for French company/startup 😅

[wet inlet]

And is there a difference between Network and System Administrator and Linux system administrators ?

[buoyant seal]

There is.
Linux System Administrator and System administrators can be the same
But the second definiton does not specify if it is linux, so it can be taken care of Windows infrastructure too (and being pretty much help desk technician)
Network engineer can be hardware specialist to configure networks/servers/routers/cables to have running networks of client PCs and servers. It can be different smth. Depends on role description
Network engineer can be dealing with high industry grade hardware network devices, but so can be two other roles.

TLDR: read specific job role description. All those roles can be hell of different from each other

System Administrator is a name for superman that can do everything (but in reality they have different of course skills of already learned stuff)
very often underpaid role with ridiculous requirements of necessary stuff to know

[wet inlet]

In France I think it's around 30 000 per year

31000 $

[spark dove]

Bah ouais!!
Tu parle Français?

[buoyant seal]

good payment goes only for DevOps engineers in this ladder (or straight devs and etc)

[spark dove]

T'habite ou? @buoyant seal

[buoyant seal]

nobody said i learned french 😛 we are speaking English at work as common language shared by all parties.

[wet inlet]

t'es fr nightrider ?

[spark dove]

Ouais??!
T'habite ou?

[wet inlet]

vers nîmes et toi ?

We should talk only in english I think xd

[spark dove]

Ouais!
Les duex.
Anglais et Francais.

J'habite à Chamonix

[fringe sphinx]

I rarely see sysadmin as a term nowadays, everybody seems to want to be called devops now. Sysadmins were always the most knowledgeable people in the company.

[buoyant seal]

for some companies Linux System Administrator and DevOps engineer are pretty much interchangable same roles.

already distinguished that DevOps engineer can have differen % of ops and dev in it. I know colleague which wished to be DevOps with 80%+ Ops.
I don't like to work as DevOps unless having 50% of dev in it 😅

[lapis wind]

Tbh I think now days, when someone says Sysadmin I think of on prem systems, more specific Linux knowledge, firewalls etc...

When I think of DevOps I think more TF and cloud services

[spark dove]

@fringe sphinx I've pm'd you

[near ocean]

Why wouldnt you share it here where people looking for jobs currently could read and learn something?

[spark dove]

Sure....sure

I wasn't telling him trade secrets.
It was more so our convo doesn't get lost amongst the trees.

Ask away!!
Disclaimer -
I'm not god; I don't have the secret key to getting you a job.
I can only give you more specific pointers if ever job searching with or via recruiters.

[outer granite]

Is physics a good college major for one who wants to get a job in software development?

[peak halo]

if you know you want to work in software development, why would you pick physics instead of computer science?

[pine sleet]

No

[fringe sphinx]

YahC thx, I wasn’t actually asking for me but for the other folks here who would appreciate your different POV! Thx for sharing

[spark dove]

They actually go hand in hand.
Just ask my step dad.
Worked for NTL (and Virgin media), Sony, Nominum, to name a few.

[smoky quest]

It's like a cost function. The further away you are from the target roles, the more costly to get in there

[fringe sphinx]

It’s also a diff world than it was when I started; when I started there were many people alt majors/backgrounds in SWE. It was still predominantly CS, but: I’ve worked with physicists, a chemist, musicians (a surprisingly large crossover between music and coding), EE’s, business majors (often moved into web dev), and certainly folks with no degree, etc. I don’t really know if todays market is harder for these types, but I suspect it’s much harder now to break into the industry. I know I’m unlikely to look at their resumes today (for entry level).

[vapid jay]

not really, the smaller the company, more generic crap you're given. the bigger the company, more specialized stuff you're given. that kind of definitions, are just marketing in my experience

[kind flame]

Hello everyone! New here so not sure if I am on the right channel. Pardon me if I am not but I wanted some advice. I am intrigued to learn data analysis with Python (libraries like NumPy or Matplotlib), SQL along with some front end skills so I can host my projects on a server. However, I wasn't if there's a path where I can learn all of that. If anyone can point me to the right direction, that would be really helpful. Thanks!

[smoky quest]

You could check out #data-science-and-ml for resources.
Otherwise, there is also https://roadmap.sh

[kind flame]

Oh my that website looks great. Thanks! I will also check the channel

[smoky quest]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[vapid jay]

oh

Thank you

[shrewd raven]

Hello

[celest reef]

Omg why does python hate me

[sonic star]

Hello. Im learing Python, I want to build my career on it. But I want to work in another Country , I mean reaciving in another coin . One of you work with Python in another country?

[smoky quest]

Hi!
A CS degree will be the path of least resistance with the most opportunities and compensation.

To that end:

• Make sure you have great grades so you can get into the school of your choice
• Continue to learn and do things!

[sonic star]

Tysm

[elfin hollow]

dfghjkl;'

[vapid jay]

what big companies can hire you if you know python?

[harsh river]

all of them. but you'll also need to be an acceptable candidate to them

[vapid jay]

oh

[pine sleet]

Big companies hire for a lot more than just knowing python

[vapid jay]

like what

[pine sleet]

Your communications skills, your teamwork skills, your critical thinking skills, your leadership skills, etc

[fringe sphinx]

Do you have a linkedin account? Maybe search for jobs and look for the job descriptions to understand what companies hire for. THere's a lot of things.

[pine sleet]

Coding is often just a small part

[smoky quest]

if you are in HS or college, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[vapid jay]

yea

[errant jacinth]

Some are half-truths, but I'm still applying
What if?

[river cape]

Hiya, I'm here to ask some questions

Does anybody here, major/study, computer programming in College? If so, please dm

[true harness]

many are currently or have in the past. just ask your questions here

[smoky quest]

what would you ask them if there were such people in existence?

[pine sleet]

I do. Though I prefer not to DM :)

[vapid jay]

I was in the special needs IV English class can I join

[stuck shell]

hello

[blazing harbor]

I mean tbf

[spark cobalt]

helo

[stuck shell]

anyways

[vapid jay]

i thought i got banned man...

[stuck shell]

meta likes meta tables prove me wrong

[spark cobalt]

One of these kids was a Masters in CS with Microsoft internship and just could not get a new grad position at any tech company, eventually went to defense.

[smoky quest]

not yet, don't worry

[blazing harbor]

I'm also doing a lot in university with clubs like MSAIL, V1, and AI document processing research. I'm working on my app for NLP research at the https://launch.eecs.umich.edu/ which @stuck shell is going to help me with. I'm doing a few competitions and I have a p heavy courseload for a freshman in university (grad 2026).

[vapid jay]

why is this common?

[blazing harbor]

you can definitely do both tbh and land a solid job 🤔

[spark cobalt]

Like it's not that it doesn't matter, it just some people have the wrong perception on FAANG internship. If you have a FAANG internship, I'd expect you to have done/built things that are competitive.

[fringe sphinx]

I’ve interviewed a lot of unhirable (at least imo) cs majors. It’s a thing.

[errant jacinth]

Heard that some defense contractors may pay very well, wouldn't consider it a fail.

[stuck shell]

I just finished the code jam in this server it was fun you should do next year

[blazing harbor]

palantir 😍

[spark cobalt]

I didn't say it was common. But it's more common than people think.

[fringe sphinx]

My experience/knowledge is opposite, but dunno for whole industry.

[blazing harbor]

I will see if I have time but help with the NLP APP pls

[smoky quest]

it's correlation vs causation.
Having the name doesn't mean you are good.
But getting an internship in a faang means you might get an opportunity to do something interesting

[spark cobalt]

Again, pay is not the only thing in consideration. Defense will typically not be the type of people developing with the more latest and newer technologies. You limit yourself in longer span of career.

[stuck shell]

ok

[errant jacinth]

Was thinking specifically about Lockheed Martin, for what it's worth

[stuck shell]

are you coding from scratch or na?

[errant jacinth]

I'm sure that the face-tracking, rapid recognizement technology you have just created will be used for good.

[fringe sphinx]

I don’t believe their known for high pay, but I could be wrong. Maybe they’ve had to step up based on what’s happening in industry

[blazing harbor]

nah i just gotta find flaws in Research

[vapid jay]

what would be an example of something interesting? wouldnt the person be working in a team?

[stuck shell]

cool

[smoky quest]

something non-trivial that you can't just do it in 2 weeks at home

[blazing harbor]

it's like $86k entry

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I think college tier and internship tier really just opens doors: but you still have to back it

[stuck shell]

43 papers how much time do you have?

[smoky quest]

so not something like building a simple frontend

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, that’s more or less our starting pay in small tech

[blazing harbor]

no ONE paper and find a flaw in it (you only need one and you can choose it)

[spark cobalt]

We pay our new grads 135k as Series D startup.

[blazing harbor]

I mean if someone is interested in aerospace cs, I think it's p solid imo

[smoky quest]

Something that gives you headache when you get home or get you super excited about how deep you went into it.
You need to be able to explain with a straight face to your interviewer how it's more complex than following through a tutorial

[stuck shell]

oh cool also who is Lu Wang if you don't mind me asking?

[blazing harbor]

very good prof with LG, Adobe, and GCP research connects

she's one of the best 🙏 also woman in stem which is amazing

[vapid jay]

but how does this correlate with working at a big company? cant someone do such a thing without being employed?

[fringe sphinx]

Series D? Hope things are going well, this is make or break time!

[spark cobalt]

Getting really busy lol

[smoky quest]

People cannot do this without being employed.
Imagine Meta. They have billions of users every day. That means that a single byte difference would have tremendous impact across the board

[stuck shell]

cool

[blazing harbor]

but focus up pick a paper and find a flaw

[smoky quest]

And billions of users per day means millions of request per second. And then there are peaks.
It's not the same world

[modern ore]

MSFT bar is really low, getting msft is so rng, and the market for new grad and intern position this year is insanely hrad

[blazing harbor]

MSFT bar is low, but it's still pretty prestigious and the comp is not bad no?

[stuck shell]

ok will get back to you by tmrw 🙂 getting late where I am.

[vapid jay]

so you're allowed to make your own things and test them?

[modern ore]

Yeah, i think its good for resume, but its still not competitive enough in this job market for new grad and intern positions

[spark cobalt]

He was applying to jobs at the same time as me tbf :/

[modern ore]

Oh, probably a diff story,

[smoky quest]

what does that mean?

[modern ore]

i thought you didnt apply for new grad positions?

[dark thunder]

@smoky quest @fringe sphinx THANKS for the advice yesterday. i ended up getting the internship

[spark cobalt]

Nope. Just junior positions. Granted, I think college students should be applying for those as well.

[vapid jay]

i just really dont understand what an impressive project would look like and how working at meta helps ;-;

[spark cobalt]

Congrats!

[vapid jay]

(meta for example)

[smoky quest]

congrats!

[true harness]

some companies don't have a designated "new grad" role so I assume you would just apply to their junior roles

[modern ore]

congrats, what did they ask you on your interview 😮

[spark cobalt]

Yep

[dark thunder]

thanks, honestly didnt expect to get it, especially as a freshman. super excited for the future.

[stuck shell]

@blazing harbor would you like an annotated pdf?

[blazing harbor]

no I just need a paragraph response on the weakness and how you would improve on it

[smoky quest]

If you work at a normal company, they may have 10 users per day. They don't even need caching or to shard databases because they aren't even close to hit any limit
If you work at meta, you have to handle load that the most expensive computer cannot handle. That's something way more complex and you get exposed to these kind of problems

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, maybe share your experience? Interview process and recruiter/hr interactions?

[stuck shell]

hs or uni?

[blazing harbor]

congrats!

[dark thunder]

uni

[vapid jay]

ohhh now i understand thank you

[stuck shell]

congrats 🎊

[dark thunder]

Thanks man i appreciate it.

[stuck shell]

how did your interview process go?

[modern ore]

i also wanan know, was their oa?

[blazing harbor]

I had an horrible OA for Roblox 😭 it was so shit

[dark thunder]

it was some really in depth questions about my personal projects. and then there was only one question to solve which was a linked list.

[stuck shell]

you tried to get a internship at roblox

[modern ore]

What about OA?

[blazing harbor]

they made me play some stupid like game at the end and it ran at like 4 FPS on my mbp (no I have not interned for Roblox) Reject lol

[vapid jay]

what does OA stand for

[modern ore]

What did you get on your GCA?

[blazing harbor]

online assessment

[true harness]

it's ok I got rolled in the interview 😩😩

[modern ore]

Did you get offer or are you still interviewing?

[spark cobalt]

Sounds like a fun OA lol

[dark thunder]

well i originally spoke with the company in person

[stuck shell]

lol was that the oa

[modern ore]

Its a iq test lmao

[blazing harbor]

849

[spark cobalt]

Fun

[stuck shell]

you also tried for a roblox internship?

[true harness]

it's quite interesting, but it's kinda just an IQ test

[modern ore]

Oh you sent old score?

[dark thunder]

and they just kept in touch with me after the carrer fair.

[blazing harbor]

nope

[vapid jay]

what were some of your personal projects?

[blazing harbor]

me too 😭

[modern ore]

Roblox Internship is Prestige Max, Its legit better than google imo 🤷‍♀️ any csmajor would be happy to try for it 😹

[blazing harbor]

I'll prob use that GCA for the other companies I apply for tbh 🤷‍♂️ why not

[dark thunder]

a lot of full stack applications that uses Django framework.

[blazing harbor]

my brother at CMU SCS got rejected at Roblox too it's wild but he got into a few quant companies like citadel so it's p sick

[vapid jay]

woah

[modern ore]

Use citadel link to get in

[blazing harbor]

I mean I'm aiming for NVIDIA/Ebay this freshman year summer. I'm in contact with this VP @ Nvidia that's helping me with recs and stuff. My sister sent me a referral to Google, but I don't know what to write for the write up (150 words)

[modern ore]

mf said freshmen year summer 😭 bro is from a op family

[stuck shell]

fr MANGA more like RAMGA

[modern ore]

Brother at Citadel, and sister at google wtf Lmao 😹

[blazing harbor]

I seriously do not know what to write for 150 words on why Google should hire me 😭 without repeating my resume

[modern ore]

You should apply asap, dont they hire in rolling basis

[blazing harbor]

well help me out rq 😭

[modern ore]

are you applying for both step and regular?

[blazing harbor]

yes yes

[modern ore]

ask @true harness he good at this stuff

@true harness wait are you still interviewing for roblox or cmpletely rejected lol

[true harness]

rejected

[stuck shell]

https://medium.com/@merelyrblx/merely-s-internship-at-roblox-7b2cc7a5e398

[blazing harbor]

I have a year of swe internship experience at J & J in HS, AI document Processing research (industry connections with Adobe @ U of M), 8 MLH hackathon wins, and a few sponsored projects for environmental sustainability. Some unrelated stuff like math research and stuff

[modern ore]

wtf how aren't you a freshmen

[blazing harbor]

wym I'm a freshman yeah

[modern ore]

wait MLH hackathon wins? bro you're insane

[smoky quest]

a whole year as an intern?

[dark thunder]

are you William Lin ?

[blazing harbor]

yeah in HS for cloud services

[modern ore]

William lin at jane street rn 🤔

[smoky quest]

oh on the side

[modern ore]

@blazing harbor What uni you at?

[blazing harbor]

no lmao I'm hoping my connections carry I've been doing a lot of 1-1 recruiting stuff. I'm not really good at competitive programming, but I can leetcode lol

[modern ore]

share profile

[vapid jay]

wsg

[blazing harbor]

oh I was between columbia, umich, uiuc, and berkeley. I like umich business program a lot, so I just did umich cs + business

[stuck shell]

@blazing harbor hack weeks?

[smoky quest]

time to update your blog

[modern ore]

bro rejected uiuc and colombia 😮

[vapid jay]

is uni/college worth it

[vapid jay]

AINT NO WAY

[smoky quest]

definitely worth it

[modern ore]

bro is insane

[vapid jay]

where you always a school kinda person or did you go cuz u had to

[dark thunder]

im barely my first semester in, and the connections i made with my professors is something i probably couldnt have gotten without going to Uni

[smoky quest]

that's a lame way to put it.
You get to go to school and learn from people who know so much more than you

[vapid jay]

i guess, isn’t it expensive as shit tho

[smoky quest]

no it ain't

[blazing harbor]

absolutely let me tell you about it. I joined maybe a month ago, and I got 9 1-1s with major corporations in investment bankings. I did this random 1-1 with this VP at NVIDIA who deals with LLMS (he's writing me a rec which is super nice) I got an AI document processing research UROP project (it's from Adobe) I've learned so much in my proof based linear algebra course

[dark thunder]

who was your mentor....

[blazing harbor]

wdym

I haven't even started. I'm planning on taking abstract algebra and a few other courses next semester which is super exciting!!

[vapid jay]

that’s cool lol, i jus got to my freshman year of high school 😂 i’ve always hated school ngl

[modern ore]

@blazing harbor any offers yet for the summer?

[vapid jay]

but im also in the process of getting my bachelors degree soon

[smoky quest]

bro college is very different from HS.
You do learn a lot more interesting things that are more focused on CS

[blazing harbor]

I mean I can always go back to J & J but there was also this small company

[stuck shell]

40k a year

[dark thunder]

i mean im jealous of your skill set, coming from a fellow freshman. its inspring that you know that much knowledgeable

[blazing harbor]

freshman year internships are hard esp at big tech 😭

[modern ore]

UIUC 60k per tuition

[smoky quest]

900$/year for me.
Also https://www.collegetuitioncompare.com/compare/tables/?state=CA

[blazing harbor]

UIUC is a cool school ngl I was thinking about going there

[stuck shell]

crazy

[vapid jay]

🤷, ngl schools not my thing it just started and i already got 39 absences 😭

[blazing harbor]

I say I'm grad 2026 😭 but that doesn't really help they want grad 2025

[modern ore]

why didnt you go?

[stuck shell]

what ca college u go to

[blazing harbor]

I liked michigan better tbh 😭 also business school is amazing here

[smoky quest]

You need to do better.
With too many absences you won't get to go to the interesting computer schools

[modern ore]

share your lc profile, im curious

[blazing harbor]

it has my name 😭 but I can tell you the stats it's not very impressive but

[smoky quest]

none of them.
But if you look at the costs, in state is alright. Plus you can get grants and stuff. And if not, a student loan isn't so bad considering the compensation involved in the field

[modern ore]

sure, can i get a screenshot or sum

[vapid jay]

you don’t really need school to make a living but what ever floats ur boat

[blazing harbor]

yeah sure that works (I'll prob send in 30 mins when I get on my laptop)

[smoky quest]

You can definitely live on minimum wage doing low level jobs

[vapid jay]

not really, even working a low level job you can still make a lot, my manager works 40 hours a week and has 2m in the bank

• there’s a lot other stuff you can other than college

[blazing harbor]

WOW 2 m is quite a bit ngl

[smoky quest]

Exactly!
Now think about how much you could make on a much higher level job!

[blazing harbor]

can I get some assistance pls rq

[vapid jay]

ur spending 2m in all on college lol

[smoky quest]

which school charges you 2 millions $ per year?

[blazing harbor]

tbh there are studies done that say that most students who go to college without already a lot of generational wealth don't do better than their peers w/ out college

[dark thunder]

are unpaid internships worth it? i mean i had no other options as the other paid internships were set on no freshmans and purely juniors.

[vapid jay]

don’t mean a year, i mean all semesters for 4 years payed off

[blazing harbor]

are you losing money?

[modern ore]

is your internship unpaid?

[smoky quest]

okay. Which school charges you 2 million $ for all semesters?
How many schools are there doing that?

[true harness]

actually, the data shows the opposite. degree holders earn much more on average

[vapid jay]

lets debate in dms

[smoky quest]

I don't need to debate in dms, I sent a link earlier about the cost of tuition on a in-state vs from out of state

[blazing harbor]

also this

[dark thunder]

my internship is remote, and it is unpaid for the first 10 weeks. but if you decide to stay, they start paying

[balmy spade]

No. Unpaid internships are rarely worth it.

[vapid jay]

i’m not saying going to college isn’t the right decision, if that floats ur boat then that’s for you

[modern ore]

how long is your internship? I think its worth it if its remote and you have no other offers

[dark thunder]

only till december

[blazing harbor]

I mean esp freshman year that's solid tbh

[smoky quest]

it depends on the learning relative to other internships

[modern ore]

may -> december?

[blazing harbor]

lr=1e-3

[vapid jay]

i wasnt debating the cost but ok

[dark thunder]

october - december

[blazing harbor]

yk I'm consulting with my NLP professors to help win the ebay ML challenge

[smoky quest]

you did state that people spend 2 millions dollars to get a degree. That's just not the reality

[true harness]

sure, I'm just pointing out that claiming college is not worth it on a monetary basis is not correct

[blazing harbor]

it's not against the rules lmao 😭 and might as well ask the industry experts

[modern ore]

idk anything about ebay challenge

[dark thunder]

i also, thought this was a good idea because the role was software developer, and its something i want to get into in the future

[modern ore]

october 2024?

[blazing harbor]

you win the challenge = ebay internship (assuming US university)

[modern ore]

Aye, gl. Is it a research scientist/machine learning internship?

[blazing harbor]

yep which is why it's super prestigious tbh for a freshman

[vapid jay]

not 2m exactly, but let’s say the college u wanna go to is 70k a year if u go for 4 years that’s 2 semester a year wich = 8 correct? so what’s 70kx8 that’s easily 500k+ lol

[dark thunder]

october 23 - dec 23

[stuck shell]

yo

[blazing harbor]

machine learning ebay internship as a freshman would go crazy tbh 🙏

[modern ore]

TBH that doesn't sound bad at all.

[vapid jay]

@smoky quest do u code

[stuck shell]

@blazing harbor whaty is ur github

[dark thunder]

thats what i figured, i need more things on my resume... especially as a freshman

[blazing harbor]

has my name in it 😦

[modern ore]

Keep applying and try to get something for the summer

[true harness]

70k per year means 35 a semester

[vapid jay]

college is worth it if you wanna go

[blazing harbor]

can you help me write up a google rec write up (150 words) I just need ideas

[modern ore]

put the internship on your resume and apply for summer 2024

[dark thunder]

i think college is worth depending on the amount of effort y ou put in.

[vapid jay]

isnt it 70k a semester?

[dark thunder]

that was the plan, should the internship for the summer be paid at that point since i have experice?

[vapid jay]

yeah, but im definitely not going 😭 + i believe if u work ur ass off u can actually do pretty well in life

[modern ore]

It depends if you get it or not lol

[stuck shell]

https://github.com/nosqldb

[blazing harbor]

ur a freshman in uni it's okay to get unpaid internships just leverage it for a paid one next year

[smoky quest]

From https://www.collegetuitioncompare.com/edu/110635/university-of-california-berkeley/ :

The UC Berkeley's 2023 tuition & fees is $14,395 for California residents

You still have a long way to go to reach 500k. And that's a very prestigious university

[true harness]

I don't know your situation whatsoever, I wouldn't be able to help

[vapid jay]

14k isn’t a lot

[blazing harbor]

not me lol 😭 I have my name on my github lol

[smoky quest]

exactly

[stuck shell]

oh 😦

[blazing harbor]

no I mean what should the format look like tbh I searched online couldn't find anything

[smoky quest]

no

[stuck shell]

should I do mlh hackathons?

[blazing harbor]

you have NLP work to do rn hmm 🤔

[vapid jay]

@smoky quest so what happens when someone comes from a extremely poor family and can’t pay for college lol (ik in some cases company’s will pay for it)

[modern ore]

did you get into MLH?

[stuck shell]

idk what they are

[blazing harbor]

yes win prizes ofc I hosted my own MLH hackathon senior year

[stuck shell]

ya working on it

[dark thunder]

be like me and take a loan 💪

[blazing harbor]

FINANCIAL AID OFFICE

[vapid jay]

my work pays for mine but i’m still not going

[modern ore]

student loans

[smoky quest]

They get grants, they do some years in a community college, they have side jobs or they take a student loan

[blazing harbor]

DUDE yk what's crazy my friend's dad knew the cofounder of huawei (went to school with him in China), so my friend got a first year internship at huawei

[vapid jay]

that’s how u mess ur whole life up lol

[blazing harbor]

which is fucking wild 😭 like just with connections he got it holy shit

[dark thunder]

not necessarily, look at it as a way to build credit lol

[vapid jay]

👍, what are u going to uni/college for?

[modern ore]

Technically you can go to community colllege, but from my hs, you needed some decent score to get grants

[smoky quest]

do you prefer to earn 50k$/year for the rest of your life with no debt or do you prefer to start your career with 150k$/year in income with 50k$ in a one time debt?

[vapid jay]

ye my mom and my bank r getting that set up she’s been wanting me to do it for a wile

[true harness]

often with pretty low interest rates also

[modern ore]

yea, I dont think tech is all that fair 😹 as people claim it is

[blazing harbor]

also college is fun tbh I won't ever get to experience saturday nights with the boys just getting wasted

[vapid jay]

you don’t need college to make good money, it helps yeah but

[smoky quest]

you absolutely do

[vapid jay]

nope lol

[balmy spade]

"absolutely"? Rather strong absolute there.

[modern ore]

sarcasm?

[smoky quest]

Why would someone with no education make as much as someone who has studied a whole field full time for 4-5 years?

[true harness]

the average person does. there are obviously exceptions, but those aren't really useful to consider

[vapid jay]

you don’t need college to make 150k+

[blazing harbor]

dude investment banking is worse 😭 it's just a bunch of frat bros making like $250-300k

[dark thunder]

very small percentage.

[smoky quest]

We could get into the ach'tually territory. Indeed, if your parent are rich, this is less of a necessity

[vapid jay]

and that small percentage is drug addicts and lazy ppl lol

[smoky quest]

anything is possible, not necessarily as plausible

[modern ore]

Yeah, I heard IB is like top 1% with hella connection

[balmy spade]

If your parents are gutter poor it's not even a necessity. School helps, 100% no argument. It's not a hard requirement.

[blazing harbor]

I mean at umich ross you can get in p easily it's a target school

[modern ore]

IB @ where?

[blazing harbor]

jp morgan chase and especially citi

[smoky quest]

That's just a matter of plausibility then

[modern ore]

How much can you make including the bonus for IB @ Goldman? @blazing harbor as a new grad?

[blazing harbor]

they pay p well... it might be harder for boutique firms like everclear at umich tho

[vapid jay]

@blazing harbor how long you been coding for?