career-advice

[buoyant seal]

Everything u can show off is great, if u can make smh with it, do it 😁 but as default user usability of a project, aim for user usage (even if it is some game mod for Minecraft) is a great direction. Projects are written to be used.
Even if it is some library written, then used by other devs in their projects

So some good documentation, like it will be used by other users or devs is good to have, so that they will manage to make sense how to use it

[fringe sphinx]

There’s two parts to your question: how to stand out and how to pass the OAs/technical interviews. Standing out I find the more interesting part, because it’s about personal growth, and doing things that’ll impress other engineers: meaningful, long projects (the 1 semester project is rarely impressive). Open source contributions to an industry relevant project impresses me: again, this is a long term effort to get involved and start with the easy stuff.

[true harness]

yes, but it's fairly region specific. maybe see if you can ask some people you know around you. or tell us where you are

[fringe sphinx]

Perhaps think about it like: you’re preparing to be a great SWE. Forget about the job part- what do SWEs need to know and do? It’s more than just being able to solve some DSA puzzles. So, while it is important to prepare for interviews… it’s more important to prepare for the job (which includes unit testing)

[hearty island]

do i tell my boss that i'm leaving because of "burnout" like my parents suggested to not burn any bridges or do i legitmately tell them that i'm leaving for another company?

they will find out any way that i'll be working for the new company bc they follow me on linkedin

[true harness]

just say you're leaving and that's it

[hearty island]

but i think they're going to force me to clarify a reason

which is what i'm stuck on

[true harness]

they can't force you to do anything

[hearty island]

yeah, i guess you're right. i'd have to volunteer that information

so how would i phrase it?

[true harness]

you don't have to phrase anything . just say you're leaving

[gritty rivet]

"My last day will be ____". Anything you say before or after that is optional and contextual

[gritty rivet]

At some point you probably do need to submit a formal letter There are loads of articles of advice on this. https://www.michaelpage.com.au/advice/career-advice/changing-jobs/how-gracefully-resign-your-job

[ocean wagon]

Hey, what kind of jobs would the python language be able to get me after I finish University (not in uni yet)? Would it be like data analysis stuff? I’m not sure whether to focus on python as it’s the language my school currently does or whether to learn a few other languages to extend my knowledge to be able to get other kinds of jobs?

[hearty island]

thanks dowcet and psvm

[gritty rivet]

Look at the job market in your local area. Search Indeed, LinkedIn or whatever people use where you are. There are also two Python job boards in the description of this channel.

I'm addition to data analysis and data engineering there's a lot of backend web and stuff like that. Python is rarely the only skill you need for a given job

[ocean wagon]

Okay, thanks dowcet I’ll have a look into that.

[dense remnant]

Rembember. A programming language isn't a job, it's a tool

There are a lot of career paths for cs students

Software Engineer, Data Scientist, Quantitative Developer (Only for people who comes from TOP Universities like Harvard, MIT, etc)

Zach Star did a video about the career paths that you have

[fringe sphinx]

I never disclosed where I was going. This annoyed HR, but managers and teammates understood. When asked (and they will ask): I’d say I’d let them know when I settle in, that I’d prefer it to be confidential.

[dense remnant]

In my opinion, if you want a job that have high salaries and that is future-proof, and with a lot of demand

Go for SWE (Software Engineer) + Machine Learning knowledge so you can work as a MLE

Or SWE + DE (Data Engineering) is really good too, it depends on what you want and like tho

[hearty island]

makes sense, ty

[white relic]

You don't owe anyone the information, but you don't have to be rude either. When I left my last job and people asked me where I was going I would just tell them which city I would be moving to and how I was looking forward to the change in scenery or whatever non work related thing. Usually people get the hint and don't pry. When that didn't work, "I'm not sharing that publicly yet, but I'll be updating my LinkedIn" is not rude and is a good transition to "by the way, do I have you on LinkedIn?"

[hearty island]

also good advice, ty.

[white relic]

I used to work in the defense industry. We had annual training on how to avoid answering questions about work 😂

[dusty sand]

Hello everyone! I'm new here! Just passin by to make new acquaintances and ask for advice, also if you want to learn Spanish I could help

[fringe sphinx]

Don’t talk ‘around it’, just don’t talk about it.

[ocean wagon]

True, but some tools help with different paths better than others, no?

[fringe sphinx]

The thing is: it’s really hard to ‘plan a career’. Things just tend to happen, based on who gives you a chance, on what you’re interested in, etc.

[fringe sphinx]

https://youtu.be/-QxI-RP6-HM?feature=shared offers great advice here. Or said a different way: a broad foundation is what lets you build a successful career. Not a narrow/specialized one.

[modern ore]

do us citizens have right to work at canadian jobs remotely?

[dense remnant]

yes, it's just depends on what you want to do

Usually for Embedded Systems you only need to know C and C++

Everything that is related to perfomance, like the software of an Airplane, rocket, car, etc is with C++ or C

if you're new just go with fullstack development

[modern ore]

fullstack development for what

@fringe sphinx i need advice for behavioral lmao

[dense remnant]

It is very difficult to get a job in anything related to low-level languages ​​as a junior, even with rust

[dusty sand]

I have a bit over a year of experience with Python, SQL, AWS and Data Analysis... I'm from South America and wish to find a remote job from USA, Canada or Europe, do y'all reckon it possible? I've searched a few sites but there's always a catch (Either that or I suck at Googling which is concerning)

[modern ore]

how common is jobs for rust lmao

[white relic]

any way I can make sense of the question, the answer is yes

[dense remnant]

web or mobile, usually if you're a good swe you can do both

[modern ore]

do they need sponsorships or whatever?

[modern ore]

I dont know what fullstack development is, what are they developing lol

[white relic]

possibly, I'm not up on Canadian labor laws, there are probably some hoops to jump through

[modern ore]

damn I dont think I can, it asks if I need a sponsorship, and I dont know lmao.

[dense remnant]

Web/Mobile/Desktop applications. FullStack mean that you work with Back-End (The server, everything that works behind the program that you are using, for example in youtube it's the recomendation algorithm) and Front-end (Everything that's visual)

[modern ore]

So full stack development means generalized swe?

[fringe sphinx]

What about?

[modern ore]

How do I prepare 😦

[dense remnant]

yep

there are also other careers like devops and data engineer, there is a really high demand for Data Engineers, since it doesn't take a team of hundreds of engineers to create a machine learning model. It takes about 1 person. But hundreds of data engineers to maintain the data warehouse

[fringe sphinx]

Hmm, I haven’t thought a lot about prep, but I’d suggest starting with: review some typical behavioral questions and come up with a few ‘stories’ that you can draw on. Like, a time you were challenged by something hard. What interests you and what motivates you, etc.

[fringe sphinx]

Don’t prepare a speech, just work through the ideas. And try to practice conversationally; talking to a real perso

And, related to this, practice how to tackle a problem you -can’t- solve. You’ll likely be asked (at some point) a question you can’t answer. There’s good ways and bad ways of handling this. So, imagine being asked a leetcode hard: how would you talk through your approach here? Maybe conversationally with the interviewer, who will likely drop hints/etc

Interviewers usually want to see how you handle something novel: so you have to not panic- they’re not (necessarily) grading your knowledge, but your attitude.

[buoyant seal]

a lot of people missing to learn stuff in depth though 😉 broadness should be pursued with care.
best to pursue broadness that the most synergyzies with your already previous chosen specializations.

For example Backend Developer is synergizing very strongly with DevOps engineering.
Both are from web development usually, both are dealing with same infrastructure objects, just from a bit different angles.

While good to have strong foundation, learning in depth specialization is necessary at least in one direction. T thing shaping and all that stuff
People need specialists in something, not a jack of trades in everything

[fringe sphinx]

I agree, I think most engineers need to learn infrastructure… but I’m biased because that’s where I started (Unix systems, scripting, networking, etc)… T shaped exactly: some broad familiarity, but eventual learning something in depth

[buoyant seal]

Ergh... i don't think most engineers need to learn infrastructure. I specify that it is cool only for people from web development domain. (Backend devs)
if they are from desktop or mobile or embedded, they don't really need it at all

[fringe sphinx]

I meant to say: ‘be familiar with infrastructure’… not mastery

Even web devs still need to setup docker containers and troubleshoot network issues

[buoyant seal]

if they are web devs, then dealing with network issues, and having ability to setup their own dev environment with docker (and compose) is great for any specialization (from web dev). i agree here.
Although in my company frontend devs manage to avoid needing to use docker at all (as far as i see them all using MacBooks and not asking about any docker problems 😅 )

[modern ore]

lets hope these two questions dont show up on my interview, it would be tedious to explain 😭

[fringe sphinx]

But I guess we’re just talking about: how to achieve the T shape… instead of just one side of it. Depth and breadth, which is hard to convey to a HS student…. Which is why I usually emphasize breadth… but you’re right it’s incomplete advice (because eventually you have to learn something in depth)

[fringe sphinx]

But plz: practice problems that you -can’t- answer. This is my biggest test: are you someone I can mentor, someone I want to mentor, etc? If you are calm, state your assumptions, explain what the problem reminds you of, decompose the problem, etc… I don’t care if you solve it

[modern ore]

True

@fringe sphinx Would interviews be open to giving out what the constriants could go up to for technical rounds

They constraints be cheatcode sometimes

[buoyant seal]

i think it is great to pursue breadth during university because it makes trying everything 😅 teenage years of finding yourself
When person managed to find what he likes the most, then there is a point to specialize and dig deeper into something more specific
Some reusable core software engineering skills and knowledge best to pursue regardless though, because it is reusable and not attached to ever changing specific technology

[fringe sphinx]

I doubt you’ll get more than a general description of the interview process (which you should ask). Like, an OA covering DSA questions, etc. The recruiter won’t be able to answer much more than a standard answer: but it never hurts to ask about topics or focus areas.

[fringe sphinx]

agree, I think a good arc is to spend freshman/sophomore year experimenting and learning a little about a lot. Lots of small projects, learn a little Linux and shell and script, etc. And Junior year, starting on a meaningful project that’ll carry (hopefully) to senior year, using good engineering practices (including git, unit testing, etc). Something like this, but not ‘mandated’, just as a general roadmap

[misty stone]

Hello guys, I hope this is the right channel to ask for advice, if not then def let me know.
I'm pretty good at python and comfortable using it, I decided to get into the ML and AI field, as of now I'm learning mathematics(which is one of my biggest passion) specifically mathematics related to machine learning, I'm just wondering that when should I actually get my hands dirty and start building stuffs in machine learning, there are bunch of books and resources and I feel a bit overwhelmed tbh to decide which one should I start with, or should I have a strong mathematic background before doing them, or what should I do first.
What would you guys recommend, how should I get into this whole field? Thanks

[fringe sphinx]

Just as it takes years to build up a mathematical intuition, I think it takes years to develop your programming brain. If you haven’t coded much, start early and start small… even in things unrelated to ML. There’s a pretty active AI/ML crowd here, especially in #data-science-and-ml , who can answer more specific questions

If you’re a good programmer, then I’d think you’d want to do some small ML projects. ‘CS50 for AI’ is a good intro/survey course for people who already know Python pretty well

[misty stone]

Gotcha, thank you very much for your response and advice, I really appreciate it. 🙂

[modern ore]

Like I would like to ask, "How big could the input get if you want to run it within two seconds"

or something

[fringe sphinx]

The normal approach to an engineering interview question is to clarify the question, and restate any assumptions.

(and listen carefully to the interviewer). Maybe take a few notes on the whiteboard too, like: "Oh, you want me to move Mount Fuji? How far? To where? What resources do I have? etc"

Some interviewers will engage you and fill in the details, and give you hints: it helps if you are calm, listen, and don't try to be the smartest person in the room (interviewers are evaluating you on whether they can mentor you, not whether you're smarter than them). Other interviewers won't give you more, in which case, you can just state the assumptions you've made.

[modern ore]

Yeah, I will try to clarify so I dont misunderstand problems. thats my main problems with OAs, I can't clarify problems with someone

[fringe sphinx]

This is what I hate about OAs and college/high school tests... slight ambiguities can send you down the wrong path. Real world engineering - we talk about a problem first to make sure we're on the same page.

[delicate bane]

this would be a good approach for college kids

[gritty rivet]

Possible but very difficult. I don't think there's some weird trick you're missing. Companies in those countries are just far more likely to subcontract with a local company then they are to hire direct

[dusty sand]

That's a shame! I'll be sure to keep lookin tho, thanks for the reply!

[near remnant]

3-4 weeks ago, the company where I work announced that we need to come to the office 2-3 times a week. A few days later, I told my boss that I won't be coming in because I was hired for remote work, and I've been working this way so far, so it doesn't make sense for me to commute. He said I was right, but we would talk about it later. Well, we haven't talked about it since then. No one has mentioned why I'm not coming in or whether I should. I expect to have a face-to-face meeting with my boss in a few weeks; maybe he'll discuss whether I should come in, or am I good as things are based on this?

[delicate bane]

do you not have weekly 1:1 meetings with your boss (can be virtual)? if its an issue, he shouldve brought it up already

[near remnant]

I have and so far he never mentioned it, so Im probably fine

[delicate bane]

i would tend to agree with you. ofc it never hurts to be prepared. if they end up requiring you to be in the office, maybe you can push back a bit and say youll come in for the start of big projects or certain "key moments" (https://www.hr-brew.com/stories/2023/09/26/microsoft-finds-that-in-person-settings-should-be-reserved-for-moments-that-matter)

[near remnant]

Yeah, probably should be fine. Do you think I should come up with something or if he doesn't mention it, just let it go?

[delicate bane]

dont take the initiative to bring it up but if he brings it up, then be prepared to give a response.

others, please feel free to weigh in. this is just my take.

[near remnant]

Sure thanks.

[delicate bane]

np bud

[near remnant]

What if they ask me what I want from the company in the long term, what they could offer me in the long run? Should I mention it? It's funny because I've been working like this for a year already (remote) but yeah..

Anyways, thanks for the help. It should be fine probably

[gritty rivet]

If they ask you that, and getting a more firm commitment from them about your situation is a priority, then sure, I would be honest about it.

A lot comes down to how much you care about not coming in to the office versus how much you care about not looking for another job. There are 100% remote roles/companies and if this is important enough to you, then you might be happier elsewhere where you don't have to worry

[coral vine]

So for example, if a large company chooses only 12 interns for a season…

What do you all think the distribution is?

For instance, how many of those interns are from online applications, have family that work at that company, are from a local university, referrals, etc?

I’m doing an internship in Texas and I’m from California. I’m thinking maybe most of my peers will be Texans

[last moat]

guys, which web backend framework is the most in demand right now.

[near remnant]

Oh yeah, but my boss is really flexible and I think if it was a problem then he would have already told me in the last 3-4 weeks. But yeah, you are right mate. I can always find something else. Unfortunately, I only have a year of exp, but more than nothing.

[gritty rivet]

Best way to find out is to search the job listings in your area. Among the Python ones, I would guess probably Django.

[gritty rivet]

To be clear though, it barely matters. Companies hire for skills, not technologies. You can learn a new framework on the job

[last moat]

i am looking for job in europe or USA. average salary of software engineer in my country is 300-500$.

[last moat]

i often see frameworks mentioned on job listings. i heard django is slow. i dont wanna spend time on mastering wrong framework.

[harsh river]

where did you hear django is slow?

[last moat]

youtube

[harsh river]

you shouldn't rely on youtube for carreer advice, a lot of videos are there to be sensational and gain likes and followers, not provide accurate content

[last moat]

i also heard PHP is slowly dying so i rejected Laravel. Asp.net looks safer option because it is controlled by microsoft. should i go for that?

[white relic]

It's really going to depend on the company. Hiring practices vary a lot.

[coral vine]

Oh

In my mind, I am guessing they chunk it out. So if they have 12 slots then 4/4/4 reservations for maybe local/referral/online ?

[white relic]

It's possible 🤷‍♂️ but there's no a priori reason to assume so

they may well hire all online

which doesn't mean you won't be working with 11 Texans, depending on the company's size and reach

[coral vine]

Could you imagine if on average, only 4 out of 12 intern slots of large companies went to online applicants? That would make the whole application process waaaay more stressful ! o.o

[white relic]

I mean, I don't know why

you have no control over and quite often no way of knowing how many "slots" are available

whether it's 4 or 12 or 100 the process of applying is pretty much identical

[fringe sphinx]

Don’t stress the framework if you’re just starting out: you’re most likely going to learn something you won’t use professionally, not matter what you pick. You can’t predict it… not one choice has enough market coverage to matter. Instead, ask: how do I stand out as a candidate?

[coral vine]

I’m just fascinated by how different the whole system actually works from what I originally thought it was like. I always believe that there was so much more space. If I was just starting out and I knew the truth of how little space there was, I might’ve been a lot more intimidated or I might have been a lot more easy on myself since I would’ve known it’s simply just that competitive.

[fringe sphinx]

For example, this was from a conversation earlier today and I think it’s a good strategy in general: #career-advice message

[fringe sphinx]

Space?

[faint quarry]

ayo I wanna get started with python and complete it asap I'd done basic programming in c and wanna just cover python asap so any suggestions?

[modern ore]

companies filter out based on technologies they use dont they for the position

[last moat]

i am freelancer, doing freelancing since 2020. i do web scraping in python, recently did few django projects. i see too much competition in python and django. these days everyone is learning python and trying to enter in freelance market. thats why i am looking for other lang/frameworks to secure a permanent job in europe/usa because pay rate is very poor in my country

[fringe sphinx]

Not really, relevant tech perhaps but not exact match. You’d have so few hits if you look for perfect matches, and weed out good candidates. (Again, just speaking from my experience). For seniors, we might be a bit more selective: we’ll weight a seniors experience in our stack much greater. The other reason is even if a junior mentions ‘Django’, their expertise will be assumed to be low anyway.

[last moat]

python is first choice to learn programming. people are getting ahead than me in freelance market 😦 i am willing to learn difficut technologies just to secure job. freelancing is pretty over and i have to pay bills

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, the question you should be asking is: given what I know and have done, what do I need to know/do/demonstrate to be hirable as a SWE?

[modern ore]

what do you mean pretty over

[last moat]

my heart says i have to spend day and night to master django (even tho there is high competition) become beast no matter which framework it is. but my brain says choose other framework with high difficulty and less competition

[last moat]

competition sir. not getting any projects because of high competition

[coral vine]

Online you see a lot of people talk about how they applied to 500 companies and got rejected.

You never hear about people talk about how much space is even available in the first place .

Space like positions/roles that a company is currently looking to fill . Or in this case, space for interns can be 12 open positions, for example.

so if the person that got rejected by 500 companies knew that there were only four out of 12 open positions available and reserved for online applicants , then maybe they wouldn’t feel so bad or maybe they would have approached it a little bit differently

[modern ore]

Wouldnt you say the same thing about jobs

[last moat]

yes

[coral vine]

They might have put more emphasis on obtaining referrals, applying for local companies, tailoring the resumes towards the company even more, etc. Depending on how much these companies are prioritizing each of these different variables surrounding and affecting the hiring process.

[sour verge]

hi guys , i’m in my last year of high school, i learned some python and js in cs class ( and html/css )i also took 3 harvard online computer science classes ( python , introduction , web dev ) , and i will continue to learn with online courses cause i feel like what i learned in hs wasn’t enough , i’m planning on strengthening my python and especially js , and maybe learn a new language ? i was thinking php / java ? what do you guys advise ? maybe it is not the best channel to discuss this

[pine sleet]

As a senior in high school the best next step would be going to university to study computer science. In the meanwhile - keep working on stuff you find interesting. There is no "best thing to learn"

[sour verge]

i am in france the system is different

so i’m probably going in a engineering school specialized in cs , but as i said it works differently than in the us or uk , in france , engineering school are among the most prestigious schools to attend to ensure good salary and job etc , and as for the « best thing to learn » part , i enjoy python a lot , js a bit less but i’ll get used to it , and i would still like to learn more to be more versatile

[smoky quest]

It's the same idea though.
if you are going to such schools, then there will be more emphasis in the theory and thus math will be quite important. More important than JS.
Note also that languages are just tools, like a screw driver. What matters is what you do with them. During your studies, you will most likely see 4-6 languages.

So I would recommend:

• Continue learning math/physics
• Have fun and build things. Discover what's out there. Make robots, IoT, AI/ML, websites, mobile apps, file compression, encryption tools, etc. It will help you dive deeper in some topics while learning what is out there and what parts you like or dislikes.

[sour verge]

maths and physics is unavoidable obviously but i don’t learn it outside of school , and not to flex or anything but i’ve always been first in my math class in every semester since as far as i can remember so i’m def not lacking here , physics about the same but top 1-5 not always first, i wanted to add that what i was talking about was use of my free time , not over studying thanks for the suggestions tho !

[smoky quest]

Great! Have fun!
I would also recommend the book "Introduction to algorithms". No idea if there is a french version though

[sour verge]

thanks ! i’ll have a look , i understand english quite good although i don’t speak it as well

[sour verge]

by the way , france has a system where students have up to 300€ to spend on books ( and other stuff ) i was thinking maybe if there were good books you would recommend me so i wouldn’t waste money?

[smoky quest]

I read more advanced books, but books that may serve you:

• The lean product playbook
• head first - design patterns
• design patterns from the gang of four
• Database internals
• designing data intensive applications
• algorithms for optimizations
• effective java
• https://www.deeplearningbook.org/
• https://craftinginterpreters.com/
• https://dev.realworldocaml.org/

[summer plover]

Bro found his career

[harsh river]

@summer plover i'd send that to @severe widget and then check out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[delicate bane]

like trent said, its dependent on company. at our company, they dont separate from local vs. online applicants so it doesnt matter. they do separate by team/dept/etc. if that makes sense

[smoky quest]

yeah, the remote vs on site position is more of a function of the company or managers' policy than slots available.

Note also that online discourse is very much skewed towards people having issues than not

[oak tide]

Hey how do you guys network? I know you can attend meetups and stuff like that, but I live in a smaller town that doesnt have many software engineers, so how can I network?

[smoky quest]

If you can't find people in the real world, then any online communities where professionals may hang out

[fringe sphinx]

The market right now is a bit screwed up: entry level positions are harder to find than in previous years. There’s a lot of things involved, but I believe it’s a temporary problem caused by economic factors… one that’ll stabilize next year. That’s my unprofessional opinion.

[fringe sphinx]

And tech conferences like PyCon and meetups, if it’s in your budget and anywhere nearby.

[spark cobalt]

Meetup.com and Eventbrite might be good places to check for any meetups near you

[coral vine]

Oh I see. So for software engineers at a large company… department could be: sales, frontend, backend, mobile, etc.

And team could be subcategories of a department, such as the mobile department contains: iOS, android, etc. ?

I wonder what they do with the batch of interns each season. Do those interns work with each other? Say there are 12 interns, Do they get separated into 4 groups of 3 and then they put them into different teams of different departments depending on their specialization? Do each of the interns get their own senior mentor or do they share mentor between the group?

or do they just come up with a random side project for all 12 of the interns and all of the interns work on that single project together for three months?

[smoky quest]

Interns are placed in specific teams. The mentor would be from that team

You may want to read https://www.amazon.com/Managers-Path-Leaders-Navigating-Growth/dp/1491973897 which describes pretty well all the roles at a company, from the intern to the CTO

[coral vine]

Oh yeah, I remember reading this book several months ago when you posted the link. All the beginner stuff was for free in the book preview. I’ll have to review my notes on that book again.

I do remember I found it quite interesting how they talked about how It’s difficult to learn how to be a good manager if you’ve never had a good manager to model after.

it was talking about how a lot of people don’t like to teach the interns because it could be difficult to navigate helping someone who is new to something xD

[modern ore]

Amazon team picking is rng lmao

[smoky quest]

it can be rewarding though 🙂

[coral vine]

That’s interesting and different from what I thought it was gonna be. So I guess during this internship, there’s quite a lot of autonomy. I was thinking more that all of the interns would be together in one class on some side project.

So I guess when they make an online posting for interns of a certain season , they are looking for interns of different specializations too for different teams and departments.

some big companies isolate for the team and departments but I guess also some big companies don’t isolate that in the internship listing

[modern ore]

You can have full NLP and ml projects on your resume and end up being on front end react team 🤣

[smoky quest]

there is no more class. No more teacher.
No one is even going to teach you. They won't spend 1-1 with you to learn git. They will tell you "you should learn git" and if they are nice, send you a link for a free ebook or doc on git.

You will be treated as a functional adult.
So you will come in the team, do some simple tasks/bug fixes to ramp up and then work on some larger projects

[coral vine]

I would think it would make sense to put most of the interns on the front end team, even though their specializations are in other things.

It makes sense to me because the company also wants the intern to learn about the company culture and hang out with people too so if they work on easier projects, then they have time to explore more aspects of the company?

[smoky quest]

The teams have specific specialties and that's a good opportunity for someone to discover if that's something they enjoy or to dive deeper into it for future jobs. It's also an opportunity to see how companies work in general

[modern ore]

It doesn’t what, why would companies want their products to look sht when they can have a frontend engineer make it way better

[coral vine]

Honestly, I don’t know much about software engineering yet. I haven’t really looked into front end development. I’m just making assumptions that it tends to be easier to pick up?

[modern ore]

Barrier to entry is probably lower, but my point is amazon specifically doesn’t put someone on a specific team based on the persons background for swe intern

[smoky quest]

depends on the company and the size. Larger companies may tend towards a pipeline of interns that are then dispatched to teams. smaller companies will most likely have the teams hosting the interns doing the interviews themselves.
With everything in between

[white relic]

I've worked in places where interns were lumped together and given "intern projects" to work on basically independently under the supervision of an FTE. I've also worked at places where interns were split among individual teams and each trained to do some tiny piece of whatever that team was working on, so they would go to team meetings and basically act like regular employees for the duration of the internship. Some of those stories were from the same company at different times. There's not a lot of uniformity and there's a lot of whatever the person in charge thought would work multiplied by how many employees/teams volunteered to host an intern. There are common trends.

[spark cobalt]

At least in my company, we do the latter. All the interns did something different this last summer.

[white relic]

It's probably better experience that way, but requires a different kind of supervision and more involvement from the whole team.

[coral vine]

Is getting lost at a large company a thing? Like you have to study a map to know where the meeting room is ? where different teams and departments are?

[fierce escarp]

Would an engineering degree be a good alternative to a cs degree? CS programs are very competitive where I am due to grade inflation and I cannot afford to move to another city.

[white relic]

Yes. Very much so in some companies lol

[coral vine]

Wow, you are all so knowledgeable. My reality being shattered by the second !

[white relic]

There will be some kind of intern/new employee orientation where they give you what you need

I started my first job in a campus that evolved over seventy years and contained manufacturing areas, offices, laboratories of many varieties, secure information facilities and aircraft hangars (and was constantly under construction)

you could work there your whole career and still get lost in an area you hadn't seen before

that's not typical lol

[coral vine]

I have only worked at small businesses that felt more like giant rooms.

I imagine that for the internship it will be like my gigantic community college that felt more like a bunch of schools in different locations.

i’m not even sure if that community college is even gigantic when compared to a large company hq.

[fringe sphinx]

I love this kind of reading: don’t just study your level, understand how business works. What product management does. Etc

[fringe sphinx]

My experience in both big tech and small, as a SWE is that of small teams. Even in a big company, the development team is fairly small. As a junior, it‘s likely a two pizza team. As you move up, you start interacting with multiple teams, etc, but large teams are not like college, they more like lots of small classes within a big college

[fringe sphinx]

But I’m speaking about software engineering organizations. For other orgs where software is ancillary or unstructured (just part of the company), I dunno

[white relic]

Even at the aforementioned company, the teams were still basically like you describe, but there were just a lot of them

(software and otherwise)

I worked on hardware and software teams there. I would never have crossed paths with myself

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, as a junior, I’d be happy in big or small tech, had very similar experiences. As a manager, big tech gave me more opportunity to develop. I do prefer small tech now because I can be more customer involved, but I’d go back to big tech for the right problem/project, for the greater impact

[white relic]

The prospect of working in such a labyrinthine place sounds intimidating but you could basically just learn the route from your cubicle to the cafeteria and the parking lot and otherwise just ask somebody

[smoky quest]

that's not specific to software either.
any factory or workplace bigger than a small warehouse / store can feel that way

[harsh river]

it helps that i those big companies departments are usually housed within the same place

[coral vine]

So you are saying, you are a rare nice person? 🙂

[pine sleet]

i can attest. r_e has many good books

[smoky quest]

My job is to set up people for success in whatever ways they need.
If they want to be considered as someone with low skills who cannot even google stuff, then so be it. They will get that link and a suggestion to google next time.
That also does have consequences in terms of tasks and future opportunities

[coral vine]

What you mentioned happened to my friend. She was transitioning from school to working one of her first full time jobs in Healthcare. Under a quite strenuous administrative role. I just remember the sadness in her voice when she would say the realization that everyone is on their own. That people don’t help each other out as much and they have their own lives to live. She already got her bachelors at UCLA and done hundreds of hours of volunteering. But still, it’s not enough to prepare for the autonomy of her new gig. She’s now worked a whole year at that hospital. She did a lot of overtime work and it’s kind of scary how your mental health can take a dip if you don’t have others looking out for you.

I wonder how my experience will turn out for this different industry. She did a lot of overtime work and it can be alarming how your mental health can take a dip if you don’t have others looking out for you. For instance, if you get a little too obsessed with work. you won’t have time to develop those relationships.

[brazen island]

People help each other out but typically how much they help you is proportional to how much effort you've put in. That's been my experience so far in life.

[pine sleet]

I don't think this is necessarily generic over an entire industry or field - it really depends on workplace and the sorts of connections you form while there

[brazen island]

I've been an intern myself in the past. I luckily never did this but people respond very badly to "Teach me X" or low effort questions. If you've come in and say "I've done X and I'm not sure it's done well" the odds of you getting help is higher.

[smoky quest]

This has nothing to do with being in a hostile environment where everyone ignore you.

People will help each others all the time and show new tricks all the time. But they are also all adults and accountable for their own actions.
If someone is unable to google google-able questions, then that's something that someone else on the team is going to have to make up for.
It's no different than group projects at school. Imagine you are paired with the worst classmate of your cohort? Imagine they are unable to accomplish their tasks and you have to jump in to fix their mess. They don't even try to search or improve, and their code is not clean. It will go beyond helping them as it will also affect your own performance and the performance of the team.

In adulthood, there won't be your mom anymore. And adults are expected to be able to use google for googleable questions and try things for themselves and show they have put some modicum of effort

[brazen island]

The being obsessed with work and over hours thing ... My hot take is that you should work smarter and not harder.

Harder is easier because it requires zero thinking. Working smarter can require buy in and money from superiors. If the place you're at doesn't want to do that yet expect you to get all the work done maybe it's time to go 👋 .

I've seen teams run 50+ hours for work that is achievable in 20.

[coral vine]

I’ve never shared her experience anywhere I have worked. But at the same time I feel I’ve only worked low level positions. I never really worked a job with increased responsibilities like administration, so that’s why I feel a bit worried. But also, her personality is the opposite of mine as well. We are very different people.

Also, the places I have worked had very good training programs so I wasn’t ever left alone to feel like I couldn’t do my job

[coral vine]

Sorry, I probably worded that poorly. I meant to say that I have a friend who had issues which were related to what you mentioned when she transitioned from school to full-time. Like she didn’t have the time or knowledge to mentally prepare herself, adapt, and rebuild that support system.

[terse rain]

hi guys

[deft wharf]

the biggest procrastination of all time
..
calculating how long it will take you to do the homework if you did the homework, instead of doing the homework

[coral vine]

I thought it was the infinite scroll algorithm

[dense remnant]

It is because the market is saturated with incompetent people (Junior positions only)

There are a lot of people who believe that with a couple of courses or YouTube videos they can already be engineers. While those who have a degree, do not have projects, networking or are not applying to the correct job, we have to try to be aggressive and be as competent as we can, just think this

We have the possibility of earning salaries of more than $300,000 annually in less than 6 years, no career has the possibility of this

In my opinion, it seems correct that with these salaries companies ask for so many requirements, You just have to learn the skills that are most in demand and future-proof

[stray flint]

What, who's making over $300k in less than 6 years?

[dense remnant]

FAANG Engineers, Big N Engineers and some startup engineers

My friend at Microsoft is making ~260KTC

[stray flint]

What is KTC?

[dense remnant]

K -> Thousands of dollars
TC -> Total Compensation

260,000 Total Compensation (Salary, Bonus, and Stocks)

Netflix, for example, is a special case, I understand that they do not give stocks, it is just a salary and that's it.

[stray flint]

I'll be happy with ~$200k and full-time remote work lol

Sadly I will take a huge pay decrease when I start though. I'm saving to prepare for it 😆

[dense remnant]

Good luck, anyone can (Obviously if you have a degree, FAANG companies stopped hiring people without degrees and experience a few years ago, because of the incredible number of people applying for their positions )

My advice is to look for positions that catch your attention and study what they are looking for

[stray flint]

Yeah I'm going for a second bachelor's in CS then a MSCS. I'm older so I have to do everything possible to compete against all you young tech nerds

[dense remnant]

na, don't worry about that. In this industry age doesn't matter, as long as you have the skills you're fine.

[stray flint]

Hope so. Just read about ageism though in the tech community

[true harness]

well if you're over 40 at least it's illegal

[white relic]

Saying "anyone can" land a job making over 200k is at best misleading, many people in successful careers today are well below that rather arbitrary number

[true harness]

the median is far below that, also

[white relic]

maybe in the bay area 200k is a typical starting salary

In much of the US that kind of money would be very good for a 10 year veteran

[spark cobalt]

Yeah the thing about 200k is just it's likely in a HCOL.

[nimble jackal]

When applying for a uni course, would it be preferable to go for computing/computer sciences over software engineering?

[pine sleet]

I think you would generally want to go for a CS degree, I believe it's more recognized than a SWE degree which is newer. However CS is generally a lot more on the theory side so do with that how you will

[harsh river]

CS is more theoretical but more widely recognized , SWE is applied which might be what you actually want

[dense remnant]

You didn't understand my point

anyone can, if you have the skills and the experience.

It's a matter of knowing how to sell yourself to recruiters

Having soft skills is also very important

Why do you think there are so many scientists with PhDs being taxi drivers or ubers?

[dense remnant]

yep

[spring mica]

...

[viral blaze]

This is for an year ?

Does anyone work/have experience working at Google ?

[smoky quest]

what would you ask them?

[viral blaze]

I so really want to work at Google... I am still in first year but am trying to learn anything that can help me with increasing my chances to get into Google... Like what language should be strong for it or where I should do internship to make an impact at interviews or smth

[smoky quest]

no different than other companies. It depends on the role

[viral blaze]

I am studying biotechnology but am learning c++ with it... It's more of a biosenors and nanotechnology so for idea it will probably be for fitness software and hardware

I have heard that Google's interview taking system is a bit much different so I stay concerned lol

[smoky quest]

google is so big and diverse that it would be difficult to reduce it that much

[zealous path]

Pretty sure Google very much takes in the idea of “we can’t change your attitude, but we can teach you to code”

[white relic]

This is mostly a regional phenomenon, FYI. In my area you'd be hard pressed to find a PhD either driving for Uber or making $200k. It's hardly a "so many" thing, it's pretty location dependent.

[white relic]

Maybe I am just being contrarian but I feel that programming blogs and YouTube and sometimes even this server tend toward assuming that all programmers ought to have a career goal of living in expensive parts of California and working for FAANG, which is simply not realistic or desirable

[elder forge]

I don't think many PhD graduates drive for Uber, but you likely remember the few that do.
The vast majority of STEM PhDs work in fields related to their doctoral education and are satisfied with their jobs. According to the National Science Foundation's (NSF) Survey of Doctoral Recipients, 92% of employed doctoral scientists and engineers in 2017 held jobs that are closely or somewhat related to their PhDs (NSF, 2019).
https://cgsnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/CGS_CareerPathways_April-2019_WebFinal.pdf

There are many reasons to not get a PhD, but the lack of job prospects once you have completed a PhD is not one of them

[white relic]

(Since COVID, I'm seeing more often the assumption that you can live in a cheap part of Idaho while getting paid California wages for working remotely, which is even more of a stretch)

[white relic]

In fairness to Yako, I think the point they were making is not that it's not worth it to get a PhD but that soft skills are also important to aiming high

[elder forge]

Yes, I think Yako was trying to make a point about soft skills being required for a good career, a point I agree with.
However, I think you can argue that in a fact-based way without resorting to stereotypes regarding PhD graduates as somehow lacking social skills.

[pastel summit]

I am 16 years old and I want to become a programmer in the future what is the best path I can take?
My grades are not too good right now,

[white relic]

Where in the world do you live?

[fringe sphinx]

Take math seriously: math class may be boring, but math (the subject) is interesting... at least to me. Being good at mathematical thinking helps in programming. Take school seriously - bad grades aren't the end of it, but you're almost a legal adult: your grades are in your control. College will be even more so: nobody will care if you fail or pass. Finally, if you have the time learn a little programming. There's no rush, many people learn in college... but if you have the time after school work, start following a tutorial. We can recommend some if you want.

[pastel summit]

USA

[pastel summit]

Yes please I would like to start earlier

[fringe sphinx]

!resources A Byte of Python and Automate the Boring Stuff are popular ebooks on the resources page. There's also youtube channels like Bro Code and Corey Schaffer that are popular. Pick whatever you like: it'll be hard and confusing at first, but hang out in #python-discussion and ask questions.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[pastel summit]

Ty

@fringe sphinx so mostly math?

[fringe sphinx]

No, programming is not mostly math... although college includes a fair amount of math. You'll want/need good algebra skills.

But, good mathematical thinking skills helps with programming. Solving math problems, thinking abstractly, reasoning about math concepts will be good preparation for programming.

This is a nice description of the connection, https://skoolofcode.us/blog/mathematics-and-coding-the-perfect-partnership-for-problem-solving-and-logical-thinking/

[pastel summit]

I see

Thank you man I really appreciate it

[brazen island]

My biggest advice is build stuff and enjoy the ride. Don't focus too much on where you're going but enjoy what you're learning / doing etc

[peak halo]

My friend works for Google, and he got a full-time job there because he interned there. And he got the internship because he ran a software development project for his university and had really good grades.

[modern ore]

Get into events or Point of contact where a recruiter would guarantee reach out otherwise getting past resume screen is rng. After that OA is easy, interview is kind of RNG, but the interview they just want you to be good problem solver and communicator

[peak halo]

!cban 811356417998716958 Advertising something completely unrelated to Python; probably a bot

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @void needle permanently.

[safe brook]

is there any chance to post a job here? if yes, which channel could be best for it?

[deft herald]

Nope

[vapid jay]

Hey, am looking for someone to code something for me for free....

Is there someone who would do it for me for free?

[deft herald]

probably not. You can ask for help to do it yourself in the help system though
#❓｜how-to-get-help

[stray flint]

Well there goes that idea. Got a bit excited about a program called VET TEC that would have paid me to do an online bootcamp. Found a program I could do while still working full-time except for the caveat about needing to find employment in the field after completion of the bootcamp. I was hoping, since I'll still be in the CS bachelor's/master's program, that would eliminate the need for immediate employment 🥹

[peak halo]

Got a bit excited about a program called VET TEC that would have paid me to do an online bootcamp
from what I understand, programs like that tend to be pretty bad, if not exploitative (thinking of Revature)

[stray flint]

Have you heard of Savvy Coders?

[peak halo]

no

[stray flint]

I figured I would find info about the VET TEC program since it would be free and I could earn some extra cash while learning Python lol

[peak halo]

be sure to read the fine print. people aren't going to pay you to learn unless there's something in it for them.

[stray flint]

Oh no, VET TEC is through the Veteran's Administration

Oh I can't post links I guess

[peak halo]

you can post links in this channel

[stray flint]

https://www.va.gov/education/about-gi-bill-benefits/how-to-use-benefits/vettec-high-tech-program/

Okay there we go. I guess slow mode is on

[weak kindle]

[last moat]

does anybody here knows how software house works. right now i am not very good in programming. i earned enough money through freelancing to build software house in my country. but dont know how to grab foreign clients consistently. dont know how to connect or advertise.

[gritty rivet]

Read the channel description

Wrong channel?

[gritty rivet]

Obviously it depends what kind of software and who you're competing with. You should hire someone who knows your target market, even if it's just on a percent commission basis

[last moat]

you are right. i think i have to find someone in europe or USA who will bring projects to my team. but dont know which platform is best to find business partners. maybe linkedin?

[gritty rivet]

I've never dealt with this directly but trying LinkedIn makes sense. It looks like there are also dedicated platforms like rephunter.net but do not take this as a recommendation

[hidden bloom]

@white relic was asking u cv questions b4 and u said to order all my experience by date. im confused on how to do this cus some of the stuff i started in lets say last october but im still doing it (it's ongoing) so shld that come first or last cus it's ongoing? shldn't all my current ongoing roles appear first??

also should i use the keyword ongoing on present in cv? ex: oct 2023 - present or oct 2023 - ongoing

[white relic]

I'd use "present" or sometimes I've seen "Oct 2023-" with no end date

As for the ordering, yes, put all the ongoing stuff at the front because its the most recent

There isn't a standard way to deal with overlapping experiences AFAIK so just do it in a way that makes sense to you

I think sorting everything by end date and then start date probably makes the most sense most of the time

But if you want to "front" an ongoing experience by putting it first because it's more relevant than whatever else you're doing, go for it

[hidden bloom]

NONE of my ongoing stuff is extremely relevant thats the thing.. certain internships i done over the summer is more relevant?

but ur saying that shld still go underneath ongoing?

also i could honestly make it one page... and take out fluff - so i shld be aiming to do that right. cus rn it's like a bit over one page but im considering just cutting it down even more so it meets one page?

also SHLD I USE PRESENT OR PAST TENSE? PRESENT FOR STUFF THAT IS ONGOING?? I FEEL LIKE PRESENT TENSE IS WEIRD THO CUS IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE I'VE ACTUALLY DONE IT? SO SHLDN'T I BE USING PAST TENSE?

[vapid jay]

Hello Everyone! I have a question about getting into programming as carrer. I currently have a degree in cyber and I am finishing my second B.S in mathematics. I plan on leaving the army next october while I get my masters in A.I from penn state. I never took coding serious. I understood code because of my math background but I didnt know how to program. As I prepare to leave the Army I deicded to take a course on udemy called a 100 days of code. How is the job market now? What should I do to prepare for the job market and what should I be focusing on?

career***

[white relic]

It is possible you might be including too much under "experience". Projects and stuff you do sporadically / in your free time generally don't count and can be left off entirely if irrelevant

[hidden bloom]

thats the issue i have many expereinces but only like one shitty project

[white relic]

So, like, multiple part-time jobs?

[hidden bloom]

and i dont have time to make more projects rn i need to apply for something.. using the cv i currently have tho i'll make more projects in future

[hidden bloom]

ya they're flexible based around uni stuff so it's not like full time multiple part time. and some volunteering relevant stuff, and summer internships = all my expereinces

so my cv is quite literally experiences rn and that one github link thats linked to teh one project i have.

ik it's not ideal but it's all i got rn - and there is a deadline for this stuff that im applying to

can i show u my cv btw i'll not dox myself obviously and take out stuff but i just wanna run it thru someone

[white relic]

Yeah you want them on there and listed first because they're most recent. But if they aren't relevant you don't have to list any details, it can be just "Job Title: Oct 2022 - Present" 5x

[white relic]

If you dont mind posting it here, with sensitive information censored, I'd be happy to offer feedback

[somber gale]

who can help me?

[hidden bloom]

what abt present or past tense

[white relic]

mine is all past tense 🤷‍♂️ I don't think it matters too much

[solid plover]

I use past continuous

[white relic]

@vapid jay The market is hard for entry level right now. I've seen the sentiment that it's largely this way for temporary reasons and will correct in a year or so. I'm not an economist, so I don't know but it may be better when you are ready to enter.

Be that as it may, with two bs's and a master's you will not have to worry about academic credentials. You will want to have some projects though. They can be personal projects or ones you completed as part of your coursework or internships/etc. The point of projects is to demonstrate you have skills as well as knowledge.

[silk silo]

hello there, im new here and in computer in general and looking for your help. i come from accounting study and banking work exp. cuz i don't believe there much future for such careers and now im kinda lost between the choices for which i can work in software and programming in general. I am not a big fan of math so i think i will stuck in learning anything that involves data, e.g. data science. I like solving problems and making life much easier, faster and more efficient using software (like automation, eliminating repetitive tasks, reducing human capital, or improving a process) and I believe i am highly adaptive , self-learner, and enjoy work that needs abstract thinking. What can be a suitable career for me?

[gritty rivet]

I'm not sure what you're getting at or why you're shouting but yes, you should use present tense for things you're currently doing and past tense for things you did in the past

[deft herald]

accounting study and banking work exp. cuz i don't believe there much future for such careers

Not to discourage you from learning programming or anything, but I think accounting and banking are very valuable skills that are needed in literally every industry. Not sure why you think there's no future there

[gritty rivet]

It's hard to know what you'll really like before you've given it a try. Dive in to whatever interests you and explore. Build stuff and see how it goes. Expect a dead end or two before you commit to any serious career change. Maybe you'll learn skills that help you without the need for a major career shift

[fringe sphinx]

There is a large area at the intersection of accounting/banking with data science & programming. Finance and FinTech employ a large number of programmers of varying types (from SWEs to data analysts to quant analysts, etc). Sure, some of the roles are math heavy, but many of the roles are primarily about understanding the domain (finance/accounting/etc) and enough of the programming to solve business problems.

[slow cedar]

Hey

I am also currently taking the 100 days of code on udemy(currently on day 17). I don't have a degree, I have only studied uptil Cambridge A levels, also I turned 22 this year, I am thinking about getting a programming job remotely, as my country is rated one of the worst countries in the world lol, my target market is US/Canada. Any suggestions on how to remotely land a job, without a degree and which career options I should keep in mind, once I do learn python. Please help me

[buoyant seal]

which country is it? good chances someone else shares experience with you and will be able to answer a bit more relevantly

[slow cedar]

Pakistan(don't hate me lol) but yeah feel free to judge me 😅

[buoyant seal]

my country is kind of funny one like that too 😅 anyway
we can answer right away though... to work remotely people usually need middle level developers and u a expected to know English of course for that too.
to work in US/Canada u need work permits, which is well, nobody is going to do for... pre-intern level of a dev.

Best course of action could be getting CS degree usually and applying for local jobs first. But not sure how is it regarding that in your country.
getting local jobs is usually always easier... because u have work permit.
There is freelancing option but u compete there with billion of... you know.. Indians, and other people from low cost living countries. Kind of not very beginner friendly attractive choice with very low profits accordinly and ultra high competion.

[slow cedar]

Yup you are absolutely right about that, Indians have taken over a big part of the programming market

[buoyant seal]

English is second language for them 😅 and open looking enough country. Expectful results

[slow cedar]

I can get a local job, but jobs here are second to none as well

[buoyant seal]

Wow. u have whole 231 millions people there in your country. I think u are definitely should be having plenty of jobs available to get your career.
My country is at least twice less and i did fine (after graduation) to get my first job experience in local jobs

[brazen island]

A remote job with no degree wil be several orders of magnitude harder. If by any chance you could save up and study abroad and stay there that'd be easier

[slow cedar]

Yup, recent inflation has made landing a job a lot more difficult than already has been, also you get paid nearly nothing for the amount of work you do, its crazy, here in PK

[buoyant seal]

u have 231 million people country. Suck it up and get your first local jobs there. Then if u wish escape country, land a good enough outsourcing company that aims to work with international europe/usa clients and the road to get out of country will be set eventually. All you need to self study good enough to reach middle dev level to land into those outsourcing companies (also known as body shops).
working in government related jobs can be opposite direction to this path potentially.
That's the easiest path at least (which assumes u also got CS degree)

If you are skillful enough and capable to study abroad, getting work permits and etc that can be cooler of course and possibly faster jump start... but lets be honest, it is far less easy path. Getting first experience in local jobs in country native to you is far easier (just because you are native fluent speaker and having work permits and citizenship)
Up to you if u can do that path

may be there are other legit paths... but the first one is at least i think with minimal difficulty to perform it... just being a bit above average and putting human reasonable amount of effort is enough... well and having reasonable amount of luck (other paths can be asking for even more luck requirements 😄 )

[slow cedar]

That is true, so the language we speak here is Urdu, but I can't even write it properly. 9 out of 10 times I would prefer english over urdu, the only problem is that I have never spoken in english, despite knowing it a lot more than my mother tongue 😅

regarding getting a local job, my main concerns are, that Pakistan has a crazy amount of people, and definitley doesn't have enough jobs, so getting a job in a proper company is a pretty amazing feat even for those with a masters degree, let alone no degree. So my only option is to work in a shady company, cause there are a lot more of them here than proper jobs, and it would be best not work their, cause the work environment and everything is pretty toxic and you don't even feel like you are working in a company. also your experience would even count if you work there and you would learn much as well. Lastly, your pay would be around 180USD per month, if you are lucky, but lets not talk about that

so I would rather work for free and learn

[buoyant seal]

regarding getting a local job, my main concerns are, that Pakistan has a crazy amount of people, and definitley doesn't have enough jobs, so getting a job in a proper country is a pretty amazing feat even for those with a masters degree, let alone no degree. So my only option is to work in a shady company, cause there are a lot more of them here than proper jobs, and it would be best not work their, cause the work environment and everything is pretty toxic and you don't even feel like you are working in a company. also your experience would even count if you work there and you would learn much as well. Lastly, your pay would be around 180USD per month, if you are lucky, but lets not talk about that

I can tell for my country. We are highly IT too, everyone is pushed into it (well, the most proffitable job after being politician 😅 with some additional privileged rights)
But 99% of those people aren't completion for person that just went through CS degree
All those... low effort online courses... aren't just giving enough foundation, practice to outperform CS degree graduates in more than 99 out of 100 cases.
Some do.. but u got the point
CS degree graduate just has always solid foundation, developed soft skills to study, and whole 4 years to practice (or more). Just being above than average during uni is enough to put quite behind all those online courses graduates

TLDR: it is easy to disregard all this competion if u just studied above than average in university (and put some effort into self studies after graduation)
P.S. also people who went into IT only for money, but having zero technical inclination or hate it, aren't completion too pretty much (more than half of comption)

[silk silo]

I almost forgot that! Thank you for this great reply it really helped me alot.
The banking system in my country is not using advanced data manipulation with AI or ML but since i am preparing to immigrate i think it will be a good career to consider.
I am actually putting data science vs data engineering to pick one to go for and kinda stuck

[slow cedar]

You are right about that, but what if I tell you the education system here hasn't been updated since like the last 15 years

you are literally learning about shit here that, has been outdated and obselte since like a decade ago

[buoyant seal]

my country education is not very adaptive too. That's not a big problem. 90%+ of core software engineering stuff is 20 years old or older in all its concepts
Only technologies rapidly change, but for... graduate with good foundation (or student that actually cared to self study), that should not be a big problem

[silk silo]

Actually due to some serious drama happened recently in my life, i am now jobless and cannot get back to my old career for quite some reasons.
I always enjoy working computers and i can get some work done in programming.
I am always fascinated by the idea of making tasks much faster, smarter, and more reliable.
I know im being too wide speaking, but now im trying to evaluate few careers like data scientist and data engineering

[buoyant seal]

Also i could bet if u wish to have more up to date education, u can research a bit, which university is better. Surely there should be a choice in 231 million people country 😉
They can't be all bad, u need just only one that is good. Best to get info which university graduates work more in their specialty though

[modern ore]

is IBM AI SWE prestigious?

[deft herald]

prestigious in terms of what? What's your motivating your need for prestige in this case?

[modern ore]

cuz prestiege feeds my stomach, and in terms of resume value and how other people look at it 🤔

[deft herald]

What's your end goal though? Getting a job that's better than AI SWE at IBM?

[modern ore]

I just wanna know

[deft herald]

🤷‍♂️ i mean yeah that sounds like some good experience to have. It also sounds like a good career as it is

[modern ore]

man fuk microsoft, i want a valid palindrome to 60/hr offer wtf

[deft herald]

wat?

[fringe sphinx]

I think you’ll find most professional engineers don’t have some ‘tier list’ of companies: prestige doesn’t come from the company or the title. Nobody cares, except people who aren’t in the industry. Yes, some companies pay better, and those roles will generally be more competitive. But nobody cares besides that

I actually assume most ‘ai’ jobs are terrible and have very little data science involved.

[pine sleet]

Also seems like everybody and their dog wants to do AI/ML these days

[modern ore]

true

[slow cedar]

well is there anyway I can build a career in programming, without going to a university 😅

I really hate uni and I have neither the amount of funds nor the grades to get into a decent university

[modern ore]

community college if you want to college?

[fleet reef]

Dog here
Dog is good without that

[slow cedar]

what's that

[fringe sphinx]

It used to be robotics, and gaming before that

[modern ore]

what country are you from

[slow cedar]

Pak

[modern ore]

probably better to ask professionals from that country, most people here are from the west 🤔

[deft herald]

IBM seems like they would have some legitimate uses of it

[slow cedar]

You are right about that, can you give me some counseling regarding my career options, so I am learning python, do you have a roadmap or something like that, which could help

[summer roost]

Having a degree from any university matters a lot more than the quality of the particular university. If you get a degree from an accredited program, it doesn't really matter much if it was from Princeton or University of Mississippi. Assuming you're in the US, in-state options will be far more affordable

Ah, just missed you saying you're from Pakistan. No idea how much that advice applies, then

[slow cedar]

so are there like any remote jobs that might hire based on skill rather than degree

[summer roost]

But I will say that, from everything I've heard in the past, countries outside the West value degrees even more, and it's even harder to break into the industry without a degree in most developing economies than in Europe or America

[slow cedar]

I can compromise a lot on the pay lol

[summer roost]

It's extremely difficult to get hired by a company in another country as a remote employee. It's very unlikely to happen unless you have deep technical expertise in a niche area and run your own consulting company

[slow cedar]

yeah, sadly that is the case here

question, so I am currently learning python, can you like give me some guidance on my career options, and what to specialize in once I am done

[vapid jay]

ok. I have a year until Im officially out of the military. That gives me plenty of time to do some projects. Im looking into leaning towards the data science or data analytics but its still to ealry to tell what my strengths will be in with programming

[summer roost]

I don't think I can, really... I think you'd be best off chatting with other Pakistanis about what options are available to you, and how much a lack of a degree will hold you back. I think that my context is too different from yours to be able to offer sound advice, but I'm sure there's communities out there that can give you solid advice on this.

[slow cedar]

You are absolutely right, thanks so much for taking time out to answer my questions, I really do appreciate it @summer roost

[summer roost]

good luck!

[hidden bloom]

can anyone help with latex here?

i have a quick question: this is an example layout in the code comments of the latex thing:

but i want to get rid of this date bit cus im going to add it inside the {software engineering I} part

[true harness]

ok, and? like, is there a question?

[vapid jay]

Okay thank you with it btw should I delete it or is okay?

Ig I’m need focus on it

[versed locust]

what do i need to get a job? i know python, arduino, java, swift, html, css, js, php, and sql, but i get the feeling its not really abt the number of languages u know. ive made a few projects, like a 3d rendering engine, several websites (including a portfolio website), and an app thats on the appstore

[dense remnant]

Do what you would like to do. Machine Learning, Data Science, Data Engineer, Software Engineering (Embedded, Web, Mobile, Desktop, Systems)

[peak halo]

It's definitely not about the number of languages you know. Employers don't really care if you say that you "know Java", because proficiency in a language is on a spectrum.

What education and work experience do you have?

[dense remnant]

^ a programming language isn't a job, it's a tool

[peak halo]

I prefer to think of languages as mediums rather than tools. A paintbrush is a tool. Paint is a medium, but it's presence on the canvas is also the product.

[urban citrus]

can anyone help me with my project im gonna fail

[patent condor]

sure!!!!

[dense remnant]

@slow cedar If you have the opportunity to get a university degree, do it. These days it is very difficult to get a job without a degree in the technology sector, unfortunately a few years ago it was possible, but now it isn't

[peak halo]

This is the career discussion channel. If you need help, go to #❓｜how-to-get-help and ask a complete question that someone can start answering

[patent condor]

Guys I need serious help

Please bare with me I have a lot to type however it will be worth your time. 😀

[peak halo]

Please say everything you want to say in one message.

[dense remnant]

There are many influencers who will tell you that companies don't care about your title, for the first job they do it. But hey, they don't care what university it is from, only

[urban citrus]

should i go to UoFT and become a major in COMPSCi which will make me want to end it all?

[dense remnant]

Quantitive Firms & Researcher pos care

[urban citrus]

the final exam is 100 pages of code on paper in 2hrs and 30 mins

[peak halo]

We take statements about self-harm seriously here. Putting that aside, getting a computer science degree is generally the best move if you want to get into software as a young person without experience.

[urban citrus]

so is it more worth then software engineering?

[peak halo]

<@&831776746206265384> this person appears to be trolling but I can't handle it rn

[tender thicket]

!ban 299724583219625995 14d please dont troll here, we're not interested in having our teaching derailed

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @patent condor until <t:1698115739:f> (14 days).

[versed locust]

i mean im still in highschool. soph rn

[compact zenith]

I’m horrid at computer science

[peak halo]

Good question. One would have to look at the curriculum for the software engineering program. But literally everyone who hires programmers recognizes a computer science degree.

[compact zenith]

Probably why I lost my house and kids gambling

[urban citrus]

okok i need to lock in then and get an 100 on this project

[compact zenith]

@urban citrus GOOD LUCK

[peak halo]

It's very unlikely that you'd be able to find paid work as a high schooler, so your best bet for now would be to focus on school and on math especially

[dense remnant]

By studying computer science you can work as a software engineer, engineering is really a job position

[versed locust]

no im not tryna get work now, im talking abt in the future, like post college

[peak halo]

<@&831776746206265384> more trolls (possibly an alt of the last person?)

[compact zenith]

It was a metaphor because I lost alot of money on csgo

[tender thicket]

!silence

[inner wren]

✅ silenced current channel for 10 minute(s).

[peak halo]

So like eight years from now? Hard to say what the landscape will look like

Sorry, I meant six.

[tender thicket]

!unsilence

[inner wren]

✅ unsilenced current channel.

[peak halo]

But even so. It's safe to say that programmers will still be in demand, though.

[peak halo]

What's most important, though, is how you spend your time at college. It's important to keep your GPA above 3, but beyond that, making connections and pursuing extracurricular opportunities is more important for your immediate career prospects

[versed locust]

alr sounds good. what do i have to be worired abt for highschool tho? like should i have a lot of projects im working on? like whats the best way to keep up as of right now?

[peak halo]

Doing well in general and especially in math. You should aim to take the most advanced math courses that your high school offers

The CS program I attended wouldn't even let you in if you didn't have an A in calculus 1.

[versed locust]

how advanced do i have to be? in precalc BC rn

[fringe sphinx]

precalc as a soph? That's pretty damn good.

[versed locust]

thanks king

[peak halo]

If you're in precalc in 10th grade, then you should be good, provided that you do well in the courses.

[fringe sphinx]

^ just wanted to add that: calc is hard not because of calc. But because of algebra.

[peak halo]

Yeah. And trig. Trig makes me so fucking mad.

||makes me want to see things burn.||

[versed locust]

then i should prolly study my trig identities right now lol i got a quiz first thign tmrw

[peak halo]

Yeah, your life will be permanently better if you just memorize them. And look for the patterns and stuff.

[peak halo]

Also the thing that stumped me the most in calc 1 was probably algebraic rules for exponents that I had forgotten

[fringe sphinx]

I just coached my son through it... his algebra skills were terrible after pre-calc (incidentally, he also took it soph year)

He made nearly every mistake on this list: https://sites.calvin.edu/scofield/courses/materials/tae/tae.shtml

[versed locust]

bro tan2 theta = (2tan theta) / (1 - tan^2 theta)

literally who invited this kid

[peak halo]

Is algebra atrophy like a well documented thing during trig? 😬

[fringe sphinx]

I think it's more a mastery thing... like, he touched everything once, but it wasn't reinforced. Check out that link, I think he made every single one of those errors... like: confusing sqrt(x^2+y^2) into sqrt(x^2) + sqrt(y^2)

[versed locust]

oh hell naw

[fringe sphinx]

in a timed calc test, it's super easy to make that mistake in a rush

[versed locust]

to be fair one time i said nl(e^x + e^-x) = 0 💀

[pine sleet]

@versed locust are you in the US?

[versed locust]

i am from Noonuya 🇦🇿

[pine sleet]

knowing your general part of the world can help provide more targeted advice

[fringe sphinx]

See page 5 / section 2 of: https://math.sci.ccny.cuny.edu/document/Why+students+fail+calculus

[versed locust]

USA

🦅 🏈 🎇 🇺🇸

[peak halo]

That's the flag of Azerbaijan 😕

[versed locust]

i just clicked the first one when i typed in flag lmao

[pine sleet]

In that case wrt to your question here #career-advice message
I would say it's also important to do well on your upcoming SAT/ACT and college applications. I'm not going to say you have to try really hard to get into an Ivy League, and people do generally say employers don't care about your university, but different universities can be better in that you have more opportunities and networking options

[versed locust]

i really like california. im hoping Cal Tech or cal poly. thoughts?

[pine sleet]

caltech is very good, I did plan on applying there but out of state tuition is ridiculous. Bit selective though, but if you can get in chances are you'll have a lot more opportunities

for instance, I go to a large state school (one of the largest in the US, in fact) so naturally at stuff like career fairs we have a lot of high profile companies and government employers looking for people

[peak halo]

This whole paper looks interesting. Thanks 😊

[fringe sphinx]

I wish high schools prioritized linear algebra over calculus, as it's a more natural progression from the HS curriculum and would reinforce some fundamentals. And is arguably more relevant nowadays.

[pine sleet]

some do, it seems. I've met a couple folks at university who say they've taken linear algebra as a high school course which I found interesting

[fringe sphinx]

My sons taking it this year (senior)... but he did a bunch of weird things (to make that happen). Very few kids take it in his HS.

[pine sleet]

yah, I can imagine. but yeah that will probably serve him better

[true harness]

linalg was a lot more fun than calc

[fringe sphinx]

That and stats. Stats should be emphasized.

[pine sleet]

I'm sure you're aware of the reputation stats gets 🥴

[fringe sphinx]

No, actually, what?

[pine sleet]

its seen as a blow off class for high school seniors that don't want to do calc. that and AP bio

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, funny, it's arguably a more important concept/life skill

[pine sleet]

yeah, demonstrated by the reactions on your original message 😛

[peak halo]

I think stats is more relevant to the lives of most people (those who don't go into STEM) than most of the math that is taught in high school

The second algebra class that I took was mostly about factoring polynomials.

[silent ravine]

How do i even find work all I see is jobs that requires work experience. I can't get into internships cause I'm just self studying in tech field :<

[smoky quest]

Most websites will offer filters so you can set a filter to entry level or junior

[stray flint]

I have a stupid question and it's not about Python so hope it's allowed. So front end web devs actually spend a lot of time writing out HTML and CSS? That seems extremely boring

Or hopefully they use some kind of framework or template that does most of it for them then they just tweak it

[pine sleet]

there is a lot more to front end development than just that

but if you're unlucky enough to end up as a front end code monkey that might be unfortunately what you do all day. And as you might image pay would be low and you probably wouldn't be satisfied with your work

[stray flint]

Yeah I would absolutely hate that kind of work

[pine sleet]

contrary to popular belief front end development can be very engaging when you're not just a code monkey, and perhaps more rewarding than backend when it does work

[stray flint]

JavaScript seems cool though if I can ever grasp the syntax

[pine sleet]

you'll use plenty of different languages and frameworks so don't get too attached to one language or syntax. It's usually the easiest part to learn

[stray flint]

I see. And why would someone choose front or back end vs going for full stack?

Is it just more or less a preference to do one or the other? Seems like full stack just opens up more job opportunities

[pine sleet]

maybe. but these job titles don't mean much

also front end and backend is very broad. Front end typically being "everything the user sees" and backend being "everything the user doesn't see"

[stray flint]

Okay thanks. I've been lying awake thinking about this lol. I think I've been studying programming too much lately 🤣

[undone glacier]

The tasks will be a mix of programming to utilise a specific API, and other tasks based on your interests and preferences.

They are offering me an internship what does this mean

Its like 3mth winter internship sorting data at a law firm do u think there is any space to build a backend server for them

[smoky quest]

it's about breadth vs depth.
People won't focus on the same problems

Like a full stack will be more on the breadth side and focus on getting some feature out end to end. But they may not have the skills nor the time to focus on specific problems such as scalability for which you need the big guns, be it in frontend or backend

[stray flint]

Ah that makes sense. So jack of all vs specialized. Thanks 👍

[smoky quest]

yep

[stray flint]

I keep seeing all this full stack dev stuff and it makes it sound like that's the coveted certification/route.

[smoky quest]

ngl, it's more on the throughput side than expertise

[devout crag]

Nice name

[viral blaze]

Ohhhh. Thanks. Is Gsoc a good opportunity for it ? Like should I invest my time into getting in it ?

[plucky latch]

Yes. Chances of google are slim in this market

[young trellis]

Hello everyone. I was wondering if anyone here would like be interviewed for a school project of mine regarding the career they have? Due to work-life and some personal poor choices it would be appreciate if someone could respond to me as soon as possible.

[true harness]

it's due very soon isn't it.. just ask your questions here, someone might answer. most people won't want to DM

[young trellis]

bingo

Here are my questions:

-Was there any perceptions of your job that changed once you started working?
-What was the education path you took to get this career?
-What do you typically do on a day of work?
-If this career didn’t work out for you, what else what you pursue?
-What was the educational path you took and did you think it necessary?
-What are some important skills needed for the career?
-Have you ever felt any form of regret or thought of “grass is greener on the other side” if you had taken another career?

If possible I would prefer is someone could do voice call but I will try to take what I can get

[spark cobalt]

Was there any perceptions of your job that changed once you started working?

Thought coding would be all I was doing, and thought it'd be the hardest thing. Turns out, coding ended up being the easiest thing for me. Much of the planning before the code, the communication to collaborate effectively, etc., ended up being the more challenging things. Once how I plan to execute a task is set in stone, the code ended up being the easiest part.

What was the education path you took to get this career?

High school graduate.

What do you typically do on a day of work?

Since I'm the lead engineer for the product I run, I end up doing some support (for my own teammates, for customers, for my own company, yada yada), typically will have at least A meeting a day (these will mostly be design, syncups, etc.), reviewing code/pair programming/mentoring, and obviously I'd say like 40-70% of my time is spent on working on tasks (whether that's coding or pre-coding).

If this career didn’t work out for you, what else what you pursue?

McDonald's.

What was the educational path you took and did you think it necessary?

Ditto to earlier question. I don't even know how I'd respond to latter part of this question. In US it is quite a standard to graduate high school, no matter what you want to do in the future.

What are some important skills needed for the career?

Communication, clarity, honesty. For coding/tasks: take things methodically, do things cleanly, don't cut corners, etc.

Have you ever felt any form of regret or thought of “grass is greener on the other side” if you had taken another career?

No. I'm 1 YOE in, graduated HS 2022. I barely even know much about what is out there besides what I know and am currently in.

Have been in a VC with a friend for the past like 30 hours so no can do for VC for a while.

[coral vine]

Would you have been mcLuvin it if you went down the mcDonalds path?

Btw, lead. Nice! Do you regret starting out so young? How do you relate to your peers?

[spark cobalt]

No. No. I don't.

[young trellis]

Do you mind if I ask some more questions?

[spark cobalt]

Sure, but might take a while to respond.

[young trellis]

Thank you so much. Do you mind if we continue in direct message?

[spark cobalt]

Just ask here.

[young trellis]

ok then.

[deft herald]

been in a VC with a friend for the past like 30 hours so
say what?

[young trellis]

Based on your answers, I assume you work for a company? Can you disclose to me who you work for? Have you ever worked on independent jobs/gigs?

[spark cobalt]

Overexaggerating. I think it's about 10 hours now.

Yes. No. No.

[young trellis]

How easy is it to work with coworkers? bosses? If there has been a conflict, can you give a example of how you over came it?

[spark cobalt]

Very easy. Very easy. Communicate it out like adults.

[deft herald]

Don't worry, you'll get there. There will be conflict eventually 😬

[spark cobalt]

I've had conflicts, I've never had a conflict that couldn't been worked out via some sort of communication.

Luckily, my workplace is very open with each other and is very supportive of each other.

[young trellis]

Have friends and family ever incorrectly assumed something about your career and can you give an example? For instance, a stereotype they thought you fell under or thinking you could provide something others could not

[near ocean]

They call you to fix their pc 🥴

[errant thicket]

hey any job work?

[round crane]

I’m completely new to the field, I was thinking of getting my Comptia A+ networking and security + certs before applying for a SOC position once I’m done with my bootcamp. However I’ve heard from others that I really only need security + and the rest is a waste of time and money. Any thoughts on this or opinions?

[young trellis]

? If you are referring to my questions than sure. If not sorry for misinterpretating.

[errant thicket]

hey i’m here for work ! yes i am

[spark cobalt]

No. I don't have a lot of extended family in the US (0 to be precise.) Otherwise, I'm very open to my friends and family.

[gritty rivet]

If SOC is your goal and you want to skip help desk, skip the A+. Sec+ may not be enough and you may even want to skip to CySA+ or something

[rare rock]

I personally recommend CCNA over network+. Also, because Sec+ is a higher level than A+, you don't really need A+ but you should still read the book just for professional development

[round crane]

awesome- ok thank you guys! it helps kinda lay out a better roadmap for me

[coarse crag]

Hey. I just passed the AWS Cloud Practitioner Certification.

I'm wondering. How many tests did you take? and how hard are the jumps between foundational, associate, professional etc levels?

(We talked about AWS certs in this channel before and you told me that it helped you with your career. and that it's good to take the certifications)

[smoky quest]

Congratulations!

[gritty rivet]

Nice, congrats. I've only done the CCP myself, but I've looked into the other levels. Both in terms of knowledge and in terms of cost, each step up is considerable.

Since I'm not actively looking for job or anything I'm trying to put off the next exam and time it closer to the three year mark to maximize the renewal

It sucks that AWS doesn't have an easy renewal path like CompTIA... if you want active AWS certs you have to take at least one full exam every three years

[coarse crag]

Thank you recursive!! ❤️😊

[coarse crag]

Oh i see

[coarse crag]

Yeah makes sense. And i agree. 3 years certification validity is pretty short and redoing the whole thing is a lot of work.

Thank you for the input

[vapid jay]

I'm in college rn doing a course I absolutely dispise, currently learning python hoping I can make a career off programming instead. do companies care more about academic qualifications than projects and skills or is it a mix? my dad would kill me if I dropped out (I'll likely fail anyway) so I wont be able to switch so a programming related course.

if companies do care about academic achievements making it not possible for me to apply, how difficult is getting jobs as a freelancer? would planning on being a freelancer reliable?

[fringe sphinx]

It's exceptionally hard to make it without a degree. Full stop. No question.

[fringe sphinx]

Most of us have bombed a class in college. It's not the end of the world.

Finally, it's a mix: companies care that you graduated. They care that you've learned a lot about programming and can demostrate (via projects/etc): they don't really care much about what you did in college besides graduate with a related degree.

[smoky quest]

To add to what was said, dropping out is very different from career switch.
I would encourage you to broach the subject with your parents about switching to CS. It's better to switch into something you will flourish in and be successful than continue in a dead end

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, maybe I misread: by "course", do you mean degree? Or class?

I started off as a EE. Absolutely hated it.

[vapid jay]

it's an A level, I'm not sure what the equivalent would be in America

yeah I'm doing electric installation, it's not for me at all. I think I'm gonna do what @smoky quest said because I'm currently just wasting 2 days a week on something I know I'm not gonna do anything with. I think it might be too late to switch to a CS course but I'll check

[gritty rivet]

Forget about freelancing as an escape route from university. Most successful freelancers have advanced professional experience and degrees

Having any degree at all definitely makes life easier then having no degree at all

[vapid jay]

that's really unfortunate, but makes sense

[vapid jay]

yeah you're probably right I'm sure they do. we've all heard of those YouTube self taught programmers though 😂

[fringe sphinx]

A-level is like high school US? Does that force you into particular college level?

[gritty rivet]

Even if it sets you back a semester or two to switch majors, it could be well worth it

[vapid jay]

after school is finished, we have college where we do A levels, after college is university where we do degrees

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, ok... i always screw this up.

[gritty rivet]

For every success bragging on YouTube there are at least 100 failures who are not 😉

[smoky quest]

It's never too late 🙂
I know people who started their degrees past their mid twenties and are doing great

[vapid jay]

yeah that sounds about right

[fringe sphinx]

And, there's nothing stopping you from starting to learn programming now. Provided you have the free time and motivation. It takes years to get "good".

[west flame]

What hash do you recomend guys for saving data on DDBB and why

[fringe sphinx]

I don't understand the question, but this is the career channel... perhaps you meant #python-discussion

[west flame]

Wrong chat lol, but thanks

[vapid jay]

I have 5 days a week free time and get home at about 5 from college so yeah I have lots of free time I've been spending learning about pytbon

@smoky quest I'm 16 I know I'm fortunate enough to have loads of time but my dad just doesn't see it this way, both of his brothers didn't get an education passed secondary school and play video games all day so I guess that's why. I'll try convince him to either let me switch course, and if this isn't possible maybe just take a gap year and completely focus on python

[fringe sphinx]

Whatever you do, if you want to get good at Python: hang out in #python-discussion . There are many people your age, at all skill levels, who you can learn from and get guidance from.

[vapid jay]

I've learned a few things there already, very helpful server

[smoky quest]

The career paths between a CS path and electrician are very different
Either way, good luck!

And regardless, it's always useful to know about python. You can automate anything with it

[vapid jay]

lol, I'm already reading automate the boring stuff with python

[coarse crag]

Are you from singapore? Sounds like a singaporean/related education system.

I have nothing to contribute to the convo though. Just curious about that. (No need to share if its private info though)

[vapid jay]

UK

[coarse crag]

Oh i see. That makes sense then haha. Thanks.

[austere urchin]

Even tho I don't have a degree, my family friend is offering a job that uses python for software development. I'm just wondering how much can I learn in three months if I do four hours daily.

[gritty rivet]

Impossible to quantify and it will vary widely by person but I would say most people can get a pretty good handle on the basics in that time if they are serious

The popular course "100 days of code" gets into some pretty serious stuff... I've always wondered how many people actually manage to do that in 100 days

[austere urchin]

So just the basics..not software developer ready

[vapid jay]

Guys, does the IBM Data Analyst Pro Certificate in Coursera worth it?

[gritty rivet]

I would talk to your family friend and try to get a handle on what level of skills/experience they are looking for.

3 months of self study isn't competitive with a BS in CS but every role is different and person connections can matter a lot

[gritty rivet]

If it covers the skills you want to learn, maybe. If you think anyone is going to hire you based on a single Coursera certificate, definitely not

[elder mica]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o7qjN3KF8U

two minutes well used

[fringe sphinx]

that's mildly upsetting.

[elder mica]

well, the smug part where he feels clever is the actual sad part..

[modern ore]

@fringe sphinx did a interview, couldn't give the most optimal solution, and had to get hint to get the solution 😭

[fringe sphinx]

That's totally normal and healthy. A good interviewer should ask you a question that you can't quite get on the first try.

[elder mica]

personally I ask for 1 minute to think, if in 1min I can't think of a solution, I leave the interview, I walk out

[summer roost]

Why?

[elder mica]

if I can't think of a solution in 1min I'm not going to figure out the problem or pass the interview.
I'm not there to learn anything, I'd just remember the problem statement and I'd rather spend
the time in a coffeeshop by myself thinking about the problem.
Plus I respect my time and.. I also respect the interviewer's time. I'm not there to socialize.

[true harness]

you are allotted 45mins to an hour for precisely that reason

[summer roost]

How do you know you wouldn't figure out the problem with some hints from the interviewer?
How do you know you wouldn't pass the interview despite not being able to solve that problem?

[smoky quest]

Sometimes it takes more than one minute to understand a problem, consider the implications and alternative paths and try some things out

[elder mica]

this is what I'm saying: it's not like I'm going to figure it out at minute 44..

[elder mica]

I invite you to remember how many candidates passed based on this hinting process.
And how many passed because they just figured it out.

[elder mica]

I mean.. AoC problems statements are so long it takes 10min just to read the problem statement.
Not necessarily the best problem statements..

[smoky quest]

interviews are about 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏
Different candidates will have different strength across the 👏 skills 👏 and that's okay

[summer roost]

I can't remember. I, as an interviewer, don't have separate mental categories for "candidate coded a solution without any hints from me" and "candidate coded a solution with hints from me".

[elder mica]

Well, I as a candidate keep detailed spreadsheets with the outcome and various events throughout the interview, and I can tell you, hints are already a strong signal that I'm going to fail.

[summer roost]

it sounds extremely bizarre to me that, as soon as something happens where you think your odds of getting hired have dropped, you'd just walk out of the room. I've definitely hired people who could only answer 2 out of 3 questions, and couldn't formulate even a naive solution for the 3rd.

Hell, I've been hired for jobs where I thought I badly flubbed one of the questions I was asked.

[smoky quest]

it also show grit and you don't give up when confronted with difficult situations.
Failing is not the problem, it's how you deal with it

[true harness]

it's also not wasting anyone's time. they blocked out that time for the interview already, it's not likely they're going to be able to fit anything else in after you leave

[summer roost]

yeah, I can tell you that I as an interviewer would absolutely never hire someone who walked out half way through because the interview got hard, but who definitely still consider a candidate who tried to talk through a solution to the hard problem.

[elder mica]

I give up immediately. I can't wait to fail the interview in fact because it's my time I'm spending there and I'm not being paid for that time.

[subtle magnet]

how do i get unsprpessed in vc

[summer roost]

see #voice-verification - this channel is for #career-advice

[summer roost]

I mean, you're allowed to do that - but it's not a good strategy. You've already blocked that time off, too. It's not as though you're going to somehow get paid for the rest of the 2 hour interview if you walk out 30 minutes in. You've already forgone the income, and all you're doing is guaranteeing a negative outcome

[smoky quest]

At the very least it provides practice and experience

[elder mica]

The interviewer blocked the time, I didn't, I can leave at any time and go to a coffeeshop.

[summer roost]

hell, I as an interviewer would be pretty offended by a candidate walking out as soon as they got a question they didn't know the answer to. I'd consider conducting half an interview and then having the candidate walk out to be a much bigger waste of my time than conducting a full interview and then deciding to pass on the candidate

[true harness]

i mean, 1 minute? you can barely parse the problem and constraints in a minute. that relies on just memorizing a bunch of problems beforehand so you know both the problem statement and the solution 🤔

[fringe sphinx]

I keep asking questions until the candidate struggles. (It usually takes 2-3 questions). I -want- to see how they work through a tough problem. I’m not a jerk about it, I try to be encouraging and make it a comfortable conversation, but: I don’t care what they know, I care how they work.

[elder mica]

Actually, the interviewer's time which is "wasted" is super-small compared to how many interviews I have to fail to find a job.
So I'd rather conserve my energy and my time as much as possible.

[fringe sphinx]

I’ve told this story before: my worst hire was someone who answered all my questions effortlessly. This was my mistake, not theirs.

[delicate bane]

oh?

[summer roost]

They've lost the same amount of time on that interview as you have. If you're going to consider your time across multiple interviews, you'd need to also consider the interviewers' time across multiple interviewees

[true harness]

huh. it's not really normal to fail a bunch of interviews . there is probably something to improve there. the worst conversion rates i've heard of were ~1/10 or so

[fringe sphinx]

I’d probably lose an entire day obsessing over what happened. That’d be a really disruptive day for me.

[summer roost]

yeah, same

[elder mica]

I'm not interviewing for top-notch FAANG, I'm interviewing for companies where I can make a living and get a salary to pay my bills.
I'm never getting rich off of this type of hob. Moreover I haven't been able to purchase anything of substance(car/house/anything).
There's no reason for me to be in an interview more than I need to.
I've been in hundreds of interviews.

[true harness]

absolute power play. kinda based in a weird way

[fringe sphinx]

I work / hire in the small side of small tech.

[elder mica]

Did you have candidates who walked out?
I guarantee you after a certain age, the fascination of problem-solving fades in favor of resource/energy conservation.

[summer roost]

I can virtually guarantee you that you're talking to several people who are of "a certain age"

[true harness]

an interview isn't about the "fascination of problem-solving". it's about demonstrating that you have skills the company wants

[elder mica]

on my watch, yes

[true harness]

i'm not sure what you mean by "watch"

[fringe sphinx]

I remember the worst interviews vividly. Had one lady who refused to whiteboard anything… like simply engage in any technical questions. Had another guy I think was on speed or something: I was genuinely afraid for my life. I remember a candidate who refused to fill out the HR paperwork, saying it was all on his resume.

[elder mica]

on my time, on the minutes and hours which belong to me, my life is made up of minutes and hours

[summer roost]

I had one candidate who was genuinely shocked that I expected them to write code as part of the interview

[elder mica]

I have far worse experiences as a candidate, some of which I won’t even talk about

[true harness]

yes, that is true. on the other hand, if you invest time to practice interviewing, you can make those minutes and hours count, by giving yourself a good chance to get a job

[elder mica]

Yes, by large volumes of preparation. The interview is decided much before it has begun.

[summer roost]

how so? I don't really expect candidates to have "prepared" for an interview in any serious way...

[fringe sphinx]

I was told that some candidates spend months preparing for amazons interview loop

Like, it’s a very well defined and structured process that can be prepared for: a lot of behavioral stuff

[true harness]

i think that's true for companies with a published process in general. maybe they tend to be larger companies with a more established pipeline, idk

[summer roost]

well - a) an interview process that's easy to game seems like a bad process, and b) I'm not surprised that Amazon has a bad process, since from everything I've ever heard they're a bad company to work for

[fringe sphinx]

(I am talking senior+, I guess, level wise)

[elder mica]

We’re already talking Amazon, imagine how much time is spent in prepararion for that, how much stress that job is, hopefully it will pay something.

[summer roost]

if you don't want to work for Amazon, don't apply

[elder mica]

I know before applying if I’ll pass or not

[true harness]

i am a bit curious, since you say you keep track of interview outcomes. how many interviews, how many acceptances?

[elder mica]

Simply based on job description and if I’m prepared at problem-solving or not

[fringe sphinx]

Oh see, I genuinely enjoy interviews, I like talking to people. The worst thing that can happen is nothing.

[elder mica]

For example right now I’m very rusty on problem-solving and I’m 100% sure I’ll fail so no point in applying

[elder mica]

A ton of interviews. Acceptance rate very low. Idk maybe it’s different for other people.

[summer roost]

the point of algorithms questions isn't to see how quickly you can solve a problem, it's to see you write code. It doesn't really matter much to the interviewer if you needed hints to get on the right track or not, in my experience

[true harness]

generally, it is different. the 1/10 stat i gave earlier is not representative of the average, it's actually quite poor

i'm not sure a person could even think through all the different problem solving techniques in a minute, if you include parsing the problem and constraints. you have to consider at least, what data structures, what general class of algo (greedy? dp?), etc...

[elder mica]

I failed 30 interviews to get 1 offer.

And after 30 failed interviews I was extremely pissed off. In my kitchen there’s a metal bar on which I hang kitchen towels. After fail number 29 I ripped that thing out of the wall and threw it in some wall.

This happened over the course of 3 months

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno about how you’re characterizing it. Not getting an offer is different than failing.

Perhaps semantics, but I’ve had lots of good candidates whom I had to pick one from.

[summer roost]

I think you're drastically underestimating the amount of "partial credit" that's offered in interviews. There's lots of different ways to not know how to solve a problem. There's thinking that you know how to solve it but realizing half way through that you're wrong, vs thinking that you know how to solve it and never figuring out that you're wrong even when the interviewer tries to tell you so. There's not knowing how to write a naive solution, vs not knowing how to write an optimized version. Even if you don't know where to get started, you might be able to identify and discard possible solutions as not workable - a candidate who can tell me why something won't work is doing better than a candidate who can't, even if neither of them can solve the problem

[elder mica]

The clock starts ticking after the problem statement is read and understood. If I can’t come up with something in my mind in 1 minute, I walk out. I have all the time in the world to think about it in a coffeeshop or at home.

[summer roost]

sure, but at that point there's no reason to think about it anymore. Once you've walked out, there's no longer any reason to solve that problem

[true harness]

yes... but after you leave you can't get the job anymore. and even if you don't factor in the problem statement parsing time, that's still a very short amount of time. if you look at top competitive programmers, even they don't always have a good idea within a minute

[elder mica]

Oh at that point it just becomes part of preparation and the time is well spent(at least from my point of view)

[smoky quest]

Even if you find a solution later in your head, it's not a given it would have been accepted (not the right coding practices, not the right performance, etc.)

[elder mica]

I’m not a top competitive programmer. If the company is recruiting for that type of talent.. they need to skip me from the get-go

[summer roost]

I think you misread something

[true harness]

and the solution is not the only thing they're after. how you arrive there is much more important

[summer roost]

the point that @true harness was making is that even for people who are excellent at solving problems competitively, a 1-minute self-imposed deadline would be too short.

[elder mica]

Lol yeah, now imagine how bad it would be if I stay and attempt a half-assed solution. Now I have to face not only justified suboptimality scrutiny but also coding practices scrutiny or performance scrutiny

[summer roost]

it wouldn't be bad. That's what we're telling you

staying and attempting a half-assed solution is what the interviewer expects the candidate to do. It's the purpose of the interview

[elder mica]

For me it’s not guided discovery and not a didactical pursuit. I’m not a student(or rather I am a student on my time but not during a test). It’s a very 0/1 thing.

[smoky quest]

then it means you would know if your half-assed answer would have been accepted. You would also know where you went wrong and how to improve next time

[fringe sphinx]

People laugh when I say this but: I’ve hired folks who didnt remember how to do a BFS. And they were great engineers.

[true harness]

you have actual interviewers telling you otherwise. it's not about being a student or not, it's about showing you are what they want

[jaunty steppe]

Nobody's perfect and most people know that when interviewing candidates

[smoky quest]

I always tell candidates that something working beats something perfect. Lots of time a candidate will try to get it perfect from the get go and fail.
But having a working solution gives something to talk about and improve. And if time has run out, at least they got something to show for

[spark cobalt]

The purpose of doing a technical interview doesn't 100% correlate with whether the candidate got the correct answer or not. Technical interviews don't exist to just show they solved a specific Leetcode problem such the contents of it are likely not super relevant to day to day work.

[elder mica]

Yes, almost nothing on Leetcode is relevant to a day to day job. I am aware

[spark cobalt]

You're probably better off seeing it as a live action behavioral interview. How do you tackle problems? Do you just leave after 1 minute if you're not satisfied?

[summer roost]

yeah. I don't know how much more explicitly I can say this: I have absolutely hired candidates who couldn't answer a question without hints. Hell, I've hired candidates who couldn't answer the question even with hints.

I've never hired a candidate who refused to even attempt to solve a problem, or to talk through their understanding of the problem and why various solutions wouldn't work with me.

[spark cobalt]

^

This shows more day to day and useful skills than just solving a Leetcode problem. You're likely never just doing something in complete isolation, talking about problems, potential solutions is extremely crucial.

[elder mica]

I can do internal monologues all I want on my time. 🙂

[smoky quest]

the algorithms are very much related to the day to day job. Leetcode is the simplest way to package it without adding unnecessary context

[spark cobalt]

Internal monologues are how you approach problems, and how you process them, no? If you were hiring someone to solve technical problems, wouldn't you want to hear these internal monologues?

[coral vine]

bruh you not agile, you 2fast2furious

[summer roost]

yeah: a huge part of a job interview is thinking out loud, so that the interviewer learns how you think

[elder mica]

Let’s just say after seeing a problem I can decide with high accuracy in 1min if I can solve it or not. The internal monologue of a failed approach isn’t worth verbalizing.

[true harness]

that's very impressive. or you know very few problem solving techniques, which seems unlikely

[spark cobalt]

No one wants to hire a quitter. Especially someone that has potential to quit in 1 minute.

[summer roost]

yes, it is.

[smoky quest]

it's worth verbalizing as it gives an understanding of where the candidate is being stuck and what hint would be appropriate without giving out the answer

[spark cobalt]

You're going to run into tasks that may be very challenging for you in the current time, but a lot of the job is to be able to communicate this challenge, clearly state the specific parts that are a blur for you to get inputs from the rest of the team. You want to show you can do these sorts of things during this short technical exercise.

[elder mica]

This makes it sound like hangman or some riddle, but for me this isn’t a game. It’s a selection process, if I’m selected I get a salary to perform certain type of work. I’m not there to get rich or to win jackpots based on riddles.

[smoky quest]

It's neither a game nor a riddle. It's shared context

[summer roost]

and it's literally the purpose of an interview

[fringe sphinx]

Have you actually walked out of interviews? Or are you expressing more your anxiety or feeling when you get hit with a stumper (tough question)?

[spark cobalt]

You're a human, not an AI.

[elder mica]

Yes, I stood up and went straight for the door, I told the interviewer “I am leaving to get a coffee in a coffeeshop, I quit the interview, have a nice day”

[spark cobalt]

How do you think the interviewer took it? Do you think this company would ever bother interviewing you again?

[fringe sphinx]

Well, you certainly achieved legendary status at that company. Wow.

[spark cobalt]

How about take it a different way. Since you already didn't get the job cuz apparently this problem is too tough, why not use it as practice to tackle tough problems in interview settings. Some companies intentionally give you problems they think you won't be able to solve because they want to see how you approach tough problems, you'd be failing their test even though they don't expect you to get the correct answer.

[elder mica]

They have a cool-off period regardless if I walk out or fail by staying all the way through the interview.

[smoky quest]

there is no cool off period for this behavior.
There will be a do not interview ever again about you in the ATS and your memorable actions will ensure the people in the interview will cross your name if they ever stumble upon it

[spark cobalt]

I'd just go back to work honestly and think "what a fucking waste of my time"

[elder mica]

They intentionally give me problems they think I can’t solve? Then it’s optimal for me to conceal as much as possible about what I do know so they can underestimate me and such that I increase my chances at being able to solve their problem

[spark cobalt]

Sure, but that may come with lower title/compensation. Do you not want to be challenged?

[fringe sphinx]

What im confused about is whether this is your anxiety/confidence bleeding through, or a misguided (in my opinion) understanding of how interviews work. Ie: are you panicking/anxious at the idea of being judged when failing a question, or do you genuinely think a failure means you won’t/shouldn’t get hired?

[elder mica]

To be challenged? I want to earn a salary on a regular basis so I can pay bills and taxes and obligations I have to my accountant, to pay my utilities clothes etc

[spark cobalt]

You're in a room with a software engineer that has years of experience on you and is trusted by the company to judge applicants. Even better: you guys are tackling a problem! There's things you can definitely learn from the interviewer but it all goes down to being able to communicate to kick things off.

To each their own, good luck imma go.

[elder mica]

I’m not attending an interview to learn. I’m attending to pass or fail and populate my spreadsheet with useful data so I can draw conclusions.

[spark cobalt]

Meanwhile companies are populating their spreadsheets with a big fat red X next to your name...

[true harness]

if you leave right after 1 minute, you're not learning about how to pass the rest of the interview. again, it's not just the solution that counts

[spark cobalt]

Also (correct me if I'm wrong), more senior roles get more subjective problems (in design and whatnot) where there isn't a definitive correct answer. Do you just walk out of every interview? Why apply to a job in the first place?

[elder mica]

I have a lot of experience with failed interviews.

[true harness]

i understand that you are allowed to do what you want, your interview strategy is your decision. but isn't it concerning that you have both a very very low conversion rate and a bunch of people saying what could be improved?

[elder mica]

Oh, I’m aware where the problems are. They are unrelated to anything discussed so far.

[true harness]

you don't think they're connected to your attitude about thinking you're going to fail before interviewing? or giving up at the first sign of difficulty?

[elder mica]

Nope. The problems are elsewhere.

[true harness]

aight. you know yourself best

[lapis wind]

So what are the problems then?

[smoky karma]

I'm working at a pretty dead end job in manufacturing right now. I have a degree in Mathematics (junior year was all discrete math, senior year was all statistics and regression, frosh/sophmore was all the basic mathy stuff, some electrical engineering and some programming classes)

I know I have to refresh at least my knowledge of discrete math (maybe some higher level combinatorics, too), as well as data structures and algorithms (never had this offered). I'm also going through the Odin Project at the moment.

Goal is to get into GT OMSCS. For reference, my GPA after graduation was 3.48 (weighed down by an unfortunate forray into topology and vector analysis that I couldn't drop)

Should I continue with The Odin Project, or should I drop it and start some sort of Java programming class?

I know my basic requirements for myself to succeed are at least:

1. A solid foundational knowledge of DS & A
2. At least functional competency at one SWE level language (Java, C++; even if the end goal is to work DevOps or data science side where R and Python would be better)
3. A good brush-up on both statistics and discrete math topics (less focus on group/number/set theory, more on combinatorics/graph theory.)

I'm having fun with TOP, blasting through it and almost done with the Foundations portion in less than a week.

Background:
Familiarity with C, R, Matlab, Python -- though its been about 3 years since I graduated university

[fringe sphinx]

I’m not super familiar with Odin project, it looks like it’s fairly web heavy, right?

[smoky karma]

its basically full-stack in a box

typical completion time is about 4-6 months

the GT OMSCS for me wouldn't start until next fall;
My job right now is pretty secure -- union, health benefits, 8/5 schedule, 2 weeks off and 65k a year.

but theres no more room for me to grow at all. I hit the top almost immediately because I had 7 years exp as a technician in the navy, and a bachelors degree so they started me way up there.

[gritty rivet]

You said your goal is GT OMSCS and it seems like you may already know more about their requirements then anyone here will.

If I were you I would get on LinkedIn and look for people who graduated from there, especially people with your background and/or doing what you want to be doing. Those are the people you need to ask these questions to

[vapid jay]

He’s intentionally not trying in interviews so he can get data so when he wants to try he’ll get it. That’s an argument my child brother would make

[true harness]

i happen to know a few people in that program, they might be willing to talk about it

[smoky karma]

actually the goal is to make lots of money but thats just a means to an end

[vapid jay]

I can’t decide if this guy’s really pretentious or just really depressed. At first I thought it was the first but now I’m not so sure

If it is the latter my guy I hope things get better for ya

A defeatist attitude will never win you a tournament though

[smoky karma]

if i get a problem I can't solve -- I usually ask someone senior for input.

I know its an interview. I don't care. I no longer care about the interview and I'm more interested in the solution.

[vapid jay]

I was talking about the other guy

[smoky karma]

I know, I just wanted to chime in

[vapid jay]

I think that’s a major difference between you guys. You have to be hungry for the solution! If you’re not then you probably won’t enjoy the job anyways

I’m new to programming but the same applies for data analytics which I do have experience in

[smoky quest]

it's also part of having a growth mindset

[vapid jay]

@elder mica keep your head high bro. If you can rekindle your love of what you do you’ll go far. When my interest in statistics was waning I just randomly decided to start auditing my church’s data and forecasting for fun! It got me going again. That investigative puzzle aspect that I know programming shares 🙂

[smoky karma]

ive definitely been there;
especially regarding programming

after the intro to C programming course I took where nothing would compile, nothing would work, brute forcing ugly solutions just to get an output on a program that was dealing with pointers and whatnot I was ready to give it all up

i don't know what changed. maybe its that I realized that those seemingly useless exercises are actually pretty important? Like yeh, you learn how to make programs that take console input and give console output, but thats just where it goes. they're so much more than that

and all those stats models you built and the ggplots you very hastily built? the models are still there waiting to be pushed further

i guess for me, my tipping point was that I finally found ideas I wanted to implement (a sourdough calculator and a photography repository sort of thing for learning about different photographers works) are like, things I want but don't actually exist

to be specific, I wanted to make a webapp that would use a model for fungal growth to calculate the exact doubling time of sourdough so that I knew how much starter I needed, how long it needed to rise for, etc

[fringe sphinx]

Oh wait, did we try to help you with that?

[smoky karma]

you did!

[fringe sphinx]

I’ve been thinking about sourdough for two weeks, I’ll be in San Francisco tomorrow and it’s on my list.

[smoky karma]

it did not succeed but--I have ideas. The model is already built I just have to fuck around with that dudes google sheet/excel to extract it. Looks like its some 1/2log(x)f(x) function

whole bunch of different weights (that probably could be discarded especially if they're like, 0.997 or some shit)

[fringe sphinx]

I do think that if you’re this type of person, you should probably be interviewing already.

[smoky karma]

i haven't produced anything of substance, my background is as a technician (which means, foreverTech.png)

and i switched careers in the pandemic to be a photojournalist. Most of my friends are actually in Ukraine right now

i was a crypto tech sysadmin kinda guy

but also fixed antennas. I interviewed for a job as a broadcast engineer but didn't make it past round 3 interviews. got ghosted

[fringe sphinx]

Look at the defense industry at all? Raytheon, GD, etc?

[smoky karma]

i'm in the defense industry (L3Harris). Problem is, I came in as a technician instead of an engineer, so now my boss only sees me as a technician.

Funny thing is, the engineers don't have engineering degrees. One has a math degree, the other has an engineering technology degree (basically, technicians level of knowledge), and the other has no degree

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, it is hard to move around those places. I went defense first and bailed quick

[smoky karma]

and all three are a pain in my boss's ass. they truly do not understand the product we make and its frustrating.

So now I feel like I have to go back for a masters degree to even be considered, despite now technically being overqualified

the technician trap is very very real.

[fringe sphinx]

I don’t advise staying in defense, the pay is terrible, but it is stable work if you’re not terribly motivated

[smoky karma]

65k a year isn't too bad. it isn't great either, but the area is pretty LCOL and I was able to buy a house.

[fringe sphinx]

Oh yah, location does matter, fair

[smoky karma]

trade-off is that my job has very little transferrable skills and there is literally no more promotions.

its philly, so there is some tech here. Comcast has its HQ and a nice new building. Been wanting to work there.

theres also a few insurance companies, lots of small businesses that need websites etc. smaller startups. Nothing like cali but I lived in Cali and I hated it.

oh. i was almost in the NYT once. the guy next to me took the same photo as me, but he was with reuters and I was just a simple freelancer. is what it is

[fringe sphinx]

Rough. That’d have been cool

[smoky karma]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/25/opinion/sunday/portland-protests-white.html

https://www.wweek.com/news/2020/07/26/portlands-naked-athena-speaks-for-the-first-time-to-local-podcast/

[fringe sphinx]

I’m confused about your target tho. Web development? With math background, you could target data analyst type roles already. It just requires being a good thinker and a fairly good analytical mindset

[true harness]

comcast is reportedly very cringe because it hires predominantly contractors, so you don't get benefits

[smoky karma]

nature of the business I guess.

I looked at data analyst roles. they generally pay pretty low (less than 50k for my area)

[summer roost]

there's some finance in the Philly area (counting Wilmington, Bala Cynwyd, Wayne, etc as "Philly area"), and analysts at finance companies can get paid pretty well, especially the ones who have coding skills.

and financial sector jobs often have a pretty decent path for converting from analyst to software engineer

[smoky karma]

unfortunately, my coding skills are very rusty and limited to psuedocode at the moment.

[true harness]

and if you go further out, there's vanguard, SAP

[smoky karma]

working on it.

[fringe sphinx]

My point really was about whether Odin project/full stack is the best complement to your background

[summer roost]

yeah - I'd not be looking at web dev, I'd be looking at data analysis, data science, modeling, etc

[smoky karma]

My background is a mess so why not make it messier. I get that. I do. I just... I dunno. It seems like something that could earn me side-money. Everybody needs a website.

[summer roost]

everybody needs a website, sure. But everyone can make a website. The people with a strong enough math background to do data science are fewer and farther between, and data scientists get paid higher as a result

[fringe sphinx]

(For background, I helped Goblin on a help thread where he was trying to model sourdough starter rising for baking… very analytically minded and not afraid to dive into the formulas and work that apparently others have done)

[smoky karma]

that excel gives me nightmares

[summer roost]

I've had more than a few jobs in the Philly area. The tech scene isn't huge, but there's a pretty decent number of options with a < 1 hour commute

I do know a few people who commute from Philly to NYC, too, which seems nuts to me but 🤷‍♂️

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I just think you may be selling yourself short. Not many people would stick with that kind of problem and go that far. I work with a lot of financial analysts, you’d fit right in (there are many types)

[smoky karma]

Maybe. You know how that guy earlier had hangups about interviews? My achilles heel is bureaucracy. The process of applying, fixing your resume for their auto-filler, optimizing a resume for a field, then dealing with HR recruiters, then HR hiring managers, then trying to message them asking why nobody showed up to a zoom meeting only to find out that they set the interview time using Arizona time zones, and so on.

gives me an anuerysm just thinking about it all.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, luckily the corporate jobs arent so bad. Usually your world is a fairly small team, unless / until you move into senior or leadership roles

[smoky karma]

Apparently its cheaper to live in philly and take an amtrak in everyday, despite the giant cost of the train

[true harness]

but that's got to be like a 3 hour ride in total

[summer roost]

potentially cheaper, but certainly better schools, and considerably higher pay if you're getting NYC wages instead of Philly wages

[summer roost]

give or take, yeah. I figure 75 minutes on Amtrak each way, plus however long it takes to get to and from the train station

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, the kicker of the story was: I got rear ended within 2 miles of my destination.

[smoky karma]

can I share my resume btw?

[true harness]

ya go ahead

[summer roost]

there's a filter based on filetype, so you might need to screenshot it, or upload it somewhere else

[smoky karma]

probably should remove MATLAB considering its been 5 years since i declared a variable in that mess.

Its like a bike, right? Once you fall off you never forget.

[fringe sphinx]

Did you earn a degree?

[smoky karma]

yeah

[fringe sphinx]

You should list the degree. As written, it looks like you just took some clssses

[smoky karma]

Good point.

[summer roost]

and GPA - the usual advice is to list GPA if it's above 3.2

using a resume template would probably give you a lot of bang for your buck in terms of making the resume look prettier. As it is, the usage of whitespace seems inconsistent to me. I haven't read the resume, but looking at the thumbnail, it stands out as a bit odd.

[smoky karma]

it was 3.48 or 3.56 or 3.81 depending on how im feeling about Native American history on that day. And topology.

[true harness]

i assume there's contact info at the top that was cut off?

[summer roost]

you should be able to get an official transcript that includes GPA

[smoky karma]

its officially 3.48. if I remove the class I should have dropped but couldn't because GI bill and money, it was 3.56. If you remove the native american sociology classes and french classes and the other nonsense its a 3.8

[fringe sphinx]

You also want to find some way to work something programming or data analysis related in there. Projects, etc. anything that shows you have written and can write code

[true harness]

you might mention "Overall GPA" and "In-major GPA" separately

[coral vine]

Me too! The hardest part for me was filling out simple job applications and sending out simple emails. I never did properly fill one out. o.o but i'm getting better about being lazy about those things over time. Must be culture shock or something.

[smoky karma]

lets try that one

[fringe sphinx]

As gg said, the template ordering and spacing is a bit weird here. Search for ‘jakes resume’ for a more traditional order

Substance wise, this looks solid, but anything that shows coding projects would be really helpful.

[smoky karma]

honestly cant recall everything i did

i know I programmed a diorama model of a traffic light system, with actual traffic lights for a class

and made a music box with an arduino that played bit-tones with a piano mode

and then a few things in R on test data sets -- kinda like the iris set.

oh. I did do a leetcode exercise today

two, actually. One was about removing duplicates in an ordered array, and the other was about packages, but it was mostly a combinatorics problem.

[harsh river]

oh only 75 mins per way? that's not bad at all

[stray flint]

@smoky karma the Navy put you ina for a Secret and a TS for the same MOS?

[smoky karma]

from what I recall, its heirarchial. If you have a TS/SCI, you also get a secret for 10 years.

TS/SCI is every 5 years but you gotta do a polygraph every time, which is super annoying because the guy doing it always thinks you're lying about shit.

[stray flint]

I have a TS right now but had a secret for the longest time. Interesting

[harsh river]

they're paid to be like that

[smoky karma]

I'm aware.

[harsh river]

they're not paid, however to be dicks, yet they are, makes their job easier i suppose

[smoky karma]

And so on haha

[dense remnant]

^ And only if it is for your first job, or second job

[summer roost]

in the particular case of the resume they were asking for a review on above, it isn't their first or second job, but it arguably is the first one that will be related to their major, so I'd still advocate for including it

I agree it should eventually be dropped, though

[dense remnant]

Are you aplying for Data Scientist positions?

Your resume is perfect for Data Analyst positions, you only need SQL

Data Analyst -> Data Scientist
By doing that, you will have a good career, with good salaries. At the time, I would tell you that it is difficult to access software engineering positions with your resume.

Data science positions pay very well, sometimes better than SWE, generally require Master's degrees, but if you start as a data analyst, you can move in 2-3 years to data scientist positions, good luck! 🙂

[vapid jay]

Does anyone know where to find a place to freelance? I'm trying to earn some quick bucks to pay something off. Don't really have the time to advertise on fiver

[dense remnant]

Freelancer.com

And UpWork

[vapid jay]

only issue with upwork is it seems really compettive and wants my face public 😨

[dense remnant]

Yeah, it is. It is usually full of people from India who, with 6 dollars, do a better job than anyone else, respect for them.

Being a programmer and being a Freelancer is complicated, being an artist and being a Freelancer is easier and better paid ngl

If you know something about 3D you can make very good money, it is in high demand and not hard to do

[vapid jay]

like 3d modeling?

[dense remnant]

I paid for my master's degree at ETH Zurich by doing 3D modeling

[dense remnant]

Yesss

[vapid jay]

thats crazy. honestly good for u. think i can learn it overnight?

[dense remnant]

2~3 Weeks, 1~2 Months to be very good. It depends on how many hours you put into it.

It's just about creativity.

Learn the interface and do basic things? Yes, 1 day or 2

[vapid jay]

shouldn't have asked to be transferd out of my 3d modeling class fuck

oh well. thx for the sites. 💋

[coral vine]

What software? Zbrush?

[dense remnant]

I was going to do the same, until I saw that vtuber artists charged $6,000 for each 3d model ☠️

[vapid jay]

🤑

[dense remnant]

ZBrush, Blender and Substance Painter

It is also likely that being a 3D artist will be worth more in the future, it is very difficult to automate it with AI unlike 2D artists

[coral vine]

How do you make money as a 3d modeler? Did you do it for a company? Or did you freelance build individual models? If you freelanced, how much did you sell each model and who was the audience to purchase it? o.o

[dense remnant]

There are many ways. There are the people who make ads for companies, for example ads for NVidia, AMD, Starbucks, etc. And people who make models for architecture companies and people who make characters, or weapons for video games/movies

[vapid jay]

freelancer.com full of boring ppl 🙄 why r they trying to make stuff that actully would make them money and not fun cool stuff.

[dense remnant]

Usually the best paid are the first, companies can pay between $2,000 to $6,000 for 12-15 second ads.

[coral vine]

My friend is very good at concept design for video games and 3d modeling but he doesn’t know how to make profit from it. He’s done some side gigs like $1.5k for a video game start up ad. Just 1 digital painting for cover art, but he doesn’t know how or where to line up the gigs :/

[dense remnant]

In my case, I advertised myself with TikTok and YouTube, this was what worked the most for me. Now I'm thinking about making courses on Udemy to have a passive income from that

[elder mica]

one wastes more time finding clients there than actually working

[vapid jay]

i can tell

[dense remnant]

The Roblox community also pays very well (although it sounds ridiculous, there are communities of developers in Roblox that buy models from you, they pay me between 200 dollars for each model there)

[vapid jay]

than u would need to smell lua

mfs got beef 😆

[summer roost]

spending more time finding clients than actually working is the norm for entry-level freelancers

[elder mica]

I have used it extensively. Do you doubt?

Several

From freelancer.com? Net loss

[vapid jay]

1 of u two hire me to make a insult generator against the other 1 👍

[coral vine]

But how did you get them to pay you instead of the other artists who were also doing TikTok and YouTube?

[dense remnant]

Honestly, I don't know. But from my point of view, if I were a consumer, I want the one that catches my attention the most. After all it is art, you'll always wants what looks best to the eye.

[elder mica]

No. You can tell me. But facts are facts, independent of who you are.

Donnie, what are you doing hidden like that? I had asked about you a few times. How are you?

Enjoying the start of a day I guess

Reading the backlog

[coral vine]

That’s so cool that you do both art and programming! And intertwine the two. Can we see your artworks, links, etc?

[summer roost]

both of these conversations seem like they should be moved to an off-topic channel

neither of them seem to have anything to do with careers at this point

[elder mica]

What’s a tic?

[vapid jay]

Hey everyone, I'm a 16 year old from the UK. I've been doing python for 4 years now (hobby) with knowledge in software architecture and bits of NASM and C. I'm currently in college doing an IT course equivalent to 5 GCSEs. Would it be possible to get an interview for a junior dev role with a basic IT qualification and a github with a couple semi-advanced projects when the course has ended at the end of April?

[silk remnant]

Can you share your github?

[vapid jay]

https://github.com/charliebrassington

[sharp ingot]

sup

[azure cobalt]

hey guys, I have a top rated profile on upwork, i am looking to partner up with an python expert and run like a virtual agency. pay-outs are huge and its a consistent gig. lmk if anyone here is intrested. we can zoom/meet at the scheduled time!

[vapid jay]

Hi

Can you become a software developer without any university?

[spark cobalt]

!rule 6 9

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[spark cobalt]

You can but it's a very tough path and is generally not the most plausible/realistic route. Unless you have connections that can guarantee you a first job, it's a very unreliable route.

[wispy garden]

you would probably want to do a bunch of certificates to prove what you know so you can land a job. without uni or certificates it would be very hard

[spark cobalt]

Depends on location/market and depends on certificates. In the US, the junior market is highly competitive where almost all candidates without a degree are rejected, certificates or not.

You'll likely have a much better chance at finding a job by getting really good at a specific domain and showing that expertise through projects/open source contributions/potentially relating bootcamps or certificates. But your expertise will shine through products you've built, not by passing a multiple choice exam from some certificate (take the analogy: you can be an expert at swimming, have read every swimming book, have gotten every swimming certification, but no one will hire you if you've never actually swum).

[grand fossil]

hello

ive a question to ask regarding to the course that i should choose in my degree year
May i know is software engineer or data science more preferable in the future?
i personally am in favour of learning artificial intelligence

[fringe sphinx]

This is a tough question. I’m a SWE who does data engineer and dabbles in DS, so I am biased: I think the majority of jobs and work related to ai/ml are and will be SWE jobs.. although they might be called DS or DE. That said, DS is growing in importance and popularity: and the people who thrive in that field will have graduate degrees and strong math/analytical skills.

But nonetheless, I think it’s most critical to have a strong SWE foundation unless you’re a PhD level DScientist

(Again, just my opinion, seek others)

[grand fossil]

If im not wrong, the trend of data science is declining as well right?

And also theoretically it can be easily replaced by the superb chatbot imo?

Btw thanks for your precious advice and time! much appreciate

[fringe sphinx]

Not at all; DS is trending upwards. It’s a relatively new field, and there’s high demand.

[fringe sphinx]

Chatgpt does not replace software engineers. It -sometimes- makes us more efficient but it’s totally wrong as often as it’s right. Just like google didn’t make books irrelevant, chatgpt doesn’t make engineers irrelevant.

[grand fossil]

i see, sorry for asking such clumsy question, from your pov, which is comparably easier to get replaced by bots?

[grand fossil]

understand, thanks for making it clear!

[fringe sphinx]

Neither jobs will be displaced, but perhaps they’ll become better. SWEs -hopefully- will be able to build bigger and more reliable and complex systems. Data scientists will be use data to build more intelligent systems that predict and aid users in new ways.

[fringe sphinx]

What grade/level are you? If you’re just starting, I’d suggest learning a bit of both. SWEs should learn some DS and DS should learn SWE.

[ocean scarab]

hello

anyone knows python here guys i want some help

[fringe sphinx]

Try #python-discussion for help

[white relic]

No particular advice for you but I sympathize. Ten years in to my career I had to make a choice between being the only one in my field without a PhD or reverting to a scrub newbie in a different field

[dusk turret]

I want to be a software engineer that's true engineering
I hate to disappoint you, but... no.

[white relic]

The measure of a true engineer is how much they look down on other disciplines for not being true engineering

[true harness]

what is "CTC"? current total comp?

[white relic]

Nobody says RF engineers aren't real engineers because nobody understands what they do well enough to look down on them

[fringe sphinx]

There’s only one true engineer: 🚋 🚋

[true harness]

when would a potential employer be looking at your current pay? and if you're switching domains/specialties isn't it reasonable to have a pay decrease?

[vapid jay]

I built my own website from scratch, absolute zero, that is defined as engineering right: "Designing and creating something".
Datascience it's like an API call, someone develops a model, I collect data and use that model on this new data. I'm not designing here although I create pipelines

[dusk turret]

Creating pipelines... sounds like data engineering.

[vapid jay]

I agree but again it's like there's kubeflow or other tools on top of which it's created. I guess same argument will come with websites as well that way

[dusk turret]

If you are switching to a domain where your expertise is lacking, then sure.

I built my own website from scratch, absolute zero
What does "absolute zero" mean?

[buoyant seal]

Data engineering is pretty much same software engineering to me.
U need to design and implement high performance data.. transmutating systems.
Not really far from regular backend stuff (for good part intersecting tbh)

Backend people deal with data flowing all the time too.
Quoting one person regarding ML in general

hubt — 09/22/2022
i warn everyone that wants to be in AI/ML: you spend a huge amount of time on data validation, cleanup, and analysis. and generally a lot less time than you'd think on the actual AI/ML part. unless your company has very mature data management and data pipelines(very few companies do), expect to spend a lot more time on data engineering than AI/ML
TLDR: ML/data engineers can benefit strongly if they properly learned their dev side, which they need to use anyway.

[white relic]

personally I claw sand out of the ground with my bare hands and smelt it to make the silicon wafers that my custom software stack runs on. Doesn't everyone?

[vapid jay]

I didn't use any layout per say, made my own html css, can have phrased better...

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I am a software engineer who primarily does DE

[fringe sphinx]

You have sand? So lucky. In my day….

[dusk turret]

you spend a huge amount of time on data validation, cleanup
Yep. Toilet cleaning data is the biggest part of the job.

[vapid jay]

it's usually the HRs that ask my pay before an interview and they outright reject once I tell them my CTC. Agreed I'm switching domains but I'm equally good compared to other folks. I'm not sure maybe taking less pay would be ideal

[fringe sphinx]

There are many ways to navigate these questions without disclosing your pay. And depending on your location, some companies may disclose their pay range

[dusk turret]

Why would they reject? Sounds discriminatory.

[white relic]

Where are you in the world? I'm guessing not USA

[fringe sphinx]

It’s reasonable for HR to make sure you’re a good match, including pay (if possible) as early as possible. It’s one of those questions they ask, but you don’t have to answer.

Like, if I’m looking for a six figure position and the job is mid 5’s, why waste anyone’s time interviewing me.

[gritty rivet]

Rule #1 of negotiation... Don't give a number before they do. If they refuse to give the target range budgeted for the position, I am not interested

[undone glacier]

How is that even possible
All companies ask for your last drawn + expected pay off the bat

[dusk turret]

Sure, but then that's your decision, not theirs.

[gritty rivet]

In what country? In a growing number of jurisdictions in the US, that's illegal.

When pressed I am as vague as possible and turn the question around

Where I have seen it on an application form I've written "competitive" or something similar, not a number. But Ive never has to do that for a job I ended up taking

[dusk turret]

If they are asking you to submit your salary as part of the job application, I have a feeling they are trying to collect salary data.

[vapid jay]

some companies make it mandatory to list salary, some ask in the HR round (before any technical interviews)

[fringe sphinx]

I believe it’s legal for HR ask, but what you’re referring to is that, increasingly, companies also need to share their salary range.

[dusk turret]

In the HR round, that is fine because at least you can negotiate.

And if you have to submit a salary, just say "negotiable".

[smoky karma]

Always give a range that is useless, such as 30k - 150k

[vapid jay]

not possible, need to give an integer as a salary

[smoky karma]

5

[fringe sphinx]

-1 and let them assume it’s a data entry issue 🙂

[gritty rivet]

Good point, that's true

[smoky karma]

1') DROP TABLE

[fringe sphinx]

Nobody expects Bobby Tables. https://xkcd.com/327/ for the uninitiated

[vapid jay]

from india, but there are many US/Europe MNCs here

[white relic]

The education system and job market in south Asia are pretty foreign to most people outside of it. Be aware that when getting advice online, what people take for granted in the west might not hold for you

[fringe sphinx]

Heck, even the UK system is completely foreign to me (US)

[white relic]

I am also one of those people with no specific knowledge of India, however, I do know that when you go to work for a multinational in your country, you're usually working for a separate entity that may or may not be run anything like the way the parent corporation is in another country. Just because they have a US brand doesn't make them hire like a US company does

I'm actually in this situation, I work for the US part of a European company

[smoky karma]

Cracking up in morning standup over this

[elder forge]

When you create a web app to show of your skills to a potential employer, uploading an image is a tall ask.
I would highly recommend you add a few examples that people can select from a dropdown menu, like in the attached image.

In my case, I do not even have any relevant images on my work computer, and even if I did, I really do not want to upload a picture of myself, friends or family to a random website.

[buoyant seal]

Unit testing for the win. When u build smth to show off, better to make of a work quality maintainable in at least minimal capacity.

[brisk arch]

how to learn python

plz help

[peak halo]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[brisk arch]

ok

[elder mica]

Very nice, 1st book about testing I see mentioned in a while.

[vapid jay]

Are you an R user? I don’t see many people talk about ggplots lol

[jaunty sundial]

A recruiter told me on Friday that I would be receiving a job offer, but so far I have not received an offer email from the company. Sent an email to the recruiter yesterday, no response. Just tried calling the recruiter today, straight to voicemail.

[hallow hollow]

Is there a way to white list your bot for only a specific server/channel

[smoky karma]

I took a lot of stats classes in my undergrad and used R a lot

I think at least 3 terms, that was the only programming language I used. Still have nightmares about trying to use tidy to build guis

Or something else I can't remember

Shiny

That's what it was

[gritty rivet]

Wrong channel try #discord-bots

[gritty rivet]

Typical nonsense, better keep looking

[vivid heath]

Hi everyone. What can I do to reach a Mod?

[fringe sphinx]

Dm modmail

[vapid jay]

thanks for the suggestion, will do it. What would you feel if u were a potential employer seeing the website
I wanted to showcase I can:

1. work with apis
2. Basic frontend html css javascript
3. Can containerize my code
4. Worked on DBs, celery
5. Hosted a ML model on web
   I'm not sure whether someone can understand I have worked on the above points checking my website

[vapid jay]

but how were able to judge whether a work is maintainable or not just by looking at the website (or did I understand incorrectly?) curiously asking. I do use pytests fyi

[buoyant seal]

maintainability is internal quality of software. U need to look at code for that.
Chapter 20.1 of the Code Comlete by McConnel 2nd edition book
(Btw, great book to read 😊 It covers A LOT of different angles to software development)

[fringe sphinx]

Incidentally, I’ve been reading some of the stuff by the htmx authors, and they make interesting points about location of behavior: https://htmx.org/essays/locality-of-behaviour/

It’s a dimension of complexity I hadn’t considered much, but rings true

[buoyant seal]

good characteristic. Then less your code has time dependencies when one code should be called in order for other code to work correctly, then better.
(One of reasons i dislike Django(and DRF) internal code. A lot of secret dynamic attributes assigned and deleted at any point of runtime across multiple places 😅 And each assigned value can be having untyped random things inside, which u need discover at runtime or reading other code parts)

[buoyant seal]

McConnel calls it Semantic Coupling pretty much
And locality helps to fight it.
Or at least they are linked i think. Locality should be helping to decrease Semantic Coupling i think

[vivid heath]

Thanks a lot