career-advice

[lapis wind]

in theory you probably good, C is quite a simple (ish) language and is a well documented process

so it shouldn't be super hard to go from C -> LLVM IR -> Compiled Exe

[pallid ferry]

Thanks for the idea 🙂

I just followed you on github

[red reef]

yo !

so recently picked up python known C# and been using it for ages

I wanna get a better job so been hitting up DSA courses and such, but Leetcode has been rough for me

any advice on books or courses to help me out, been eyeing up neetcodes course

[buoyant seal]

https://www.amazon.com/Code-Complete-Practical-Handbook-Construction/dp/0735619670
This is a good book to learn a little bit of everything in terms of coding
how to name stuff, when to write comments, how to debug, what things exist
what to read next on each topic

[red reef]

I have that one looking more for stuff that will help me out with leetcode style questions

[onyx basin]

Hello, I've submitted a proposal on upwork, but I noticed there's a interview in the progress (obvoisuly).. I just want to ask if this interview would be face 2 face or in a vc or would be fine in chat
and is it just like any interview? with question and everything?

[gritty rivet]

Where? Check the data for your country or city.

[gritty rivet]

Depends on who's hiring. Most likely you'll never hear anything but if they're interested they will let you know.

[slow acorn]

Hii all
I'm a beginner coder
Need some help to guide my project
Intrested pls text

[fringe sphinx]

For help, please see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[mystic patio]

does anyone know a good free python course

[dense fiber]

CS50P

[fringe sphinx]

!resources See A Byte of Python and Automate the Boring Stuff... those are ebooks. There's also CS50p (youtube videos), and there's several youtube channels some folks like (Corey Schaffer and brocode come up a lot)

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[onyx basin]

thanks for answering!!

[uncut sable]

I am js developer and started python, What do you suggest to do perform better in python ?

[fringe sphinx]

See link above from me. And, for general questions, plz see #python-discussion

[gusty yarrow]

@uncut sable ..use correctly identation

[eager jungle]

Well, mostly it would be in text, it's just they want to know about the tools that you will use for completion, and your experience, or how long would you take to complete

Mostly they ignore about experience, cause they know it's freelancing

And most of the time, clients wouldn't know about web scraping

[onyx basin]

oh ok, thanks man!

[onyx basin]

it was actually a backend - flask job

[eager jungle]

Ooh that's great to hear

Probably then, they would tell thier requirements, and would like to see if you accept those requirements

[onyx basin]

and as you said above, it doesn't have to be face2face or even in a vc

[eager jungle]

Why because, it's good to have text conversation, which they can lookup whenever they want

And it would be easy to reference it later in conversations

[onyx basin]

oo

oh yeah that's right

[eager jungle]

Yeah, and face to face will happen when they want to recruit you or want to show some activities in action

[fervent grove]

they train a model on those lelele

[eager jungle]

Nope, dosent help, AI don't have the ability of sealing the deal

[fervent grove]

!rule ad

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[fervent grove]

was more a /s

[fiery stone]

okh

[eager jungle]

And it really affects your ability to communicate properly with clients

[onyx basin]

well I can always request to keep the conversation through msgs... right?

[eager jungle]

Well, most of the rare occasions too, it would be voice

[spark cobalt]

Voice/Video with things like a whiteboard are significantly more efficient

Doing only through messages hurt you a lot more than them.

[eager jungle]

You should be ready for video, just in case

[spark cobalt]

I have yet to see product requirements from customers that were precise and specific in text form if imma be honest. Non-engineers are not good at that. Hell, even customers that are engineers give the vaguest and shittiest requirements.

[eager jungle]

Yeah, complex jobs surely need a whiteboard and voice for sure

[onyx basin]

well, I don't know if I can do that really...

[spark cobalt]

Go read your own status king

[onyx basin]

uhh, I don't think I can really do that

[spark cobalt]

You'll be limiting yourself a lot. More than you think.

[eager jungle]

Don't worry that they might judge you based on your communication skills, they certainly won't

[onyx basin]

it's not about the communication skills neither if I'm shy..

[spark cobalt]

If you have a phone, you can connect to PC and have your phone act as a mic

[onyx basin]

It' just that I'm working with one of my family's memeber account, I'm still under 18 and upwork doesn't really allow people under 18 to work

[spark cobalt]

Breaks one of the rules of this server so I'm out. Gl

[eager jungle]

Read the rules again, you can't take money from upwork until you verify you are 18

[timber hamlet]

Do most of python jobs jus include googling a lot?

[spark cobalt]

!rule 5

[inner wren]

Rules

5. Do not provide or request help on projects that may violate terms of service, or that may be deemed inappropriate, malicious, or illegal.

[spark cobalt]

Most jobs in general. No one's an encyclopedia.

[onyx basin]

np I do really understand

thanks for the chat @spark cobalt@eager jungle

[timber hamlet]

Well that makes me feel better. Because I can understand most python except loops and functions. I could not type one from scratch

[spark cobalt]

If you do not understand loops and functions you are far from ready for a job.

[timber hamlet]

Still can't* but. Is computer science really the best major for software?

[eager jungle]

Uhh, its bad if its hard to implement loops and func 😬

[eager jungle]

you can refer our resources and learn from it

[timber hamlet]

I'm a senior in high school. I would agree 100 percent I mean I am very new I would say to python at the moment

[eager jungle]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[spark cobalt]

Most common major for this use case. Some positions (like data science) revolves around math more than it does coding (even if they code probably everyday) and some will choose to major in DS/Math instead.

[timber hamlet]

I know I'm not even in college far from a job. but ig would you guys reccomend just getting ahead for the future?

[spark cobalt]

Doesn't hurt

[smoky quest]

you have plenty of time. This is more geared towards senior software engineers.
It abstracts away from a real use case that had to be solved. There are multiple solutions and I would be satisfied with any of them as long as the candidate is about to articulate their reasoning and understand their trade offs

[timber hamlet]

My only fear is the math. I see the suggested classes it's like. Calculus 1 to 3

[smoky quest]

I would suggest:

• Make sure you have good grades so you can choose your college
• Have fun and build things. It will help you see what's out there, how things work and what you like or do not like. So make games, websites, mobile apps, robots, etc.

[timber hamlet]

Oof. Well my AP chem and AP precal is failing 😔 j know a C is passing but ow

[eager jungle]

Try khan academy, I'm sure you will love calculus then

[smoky quest]

Math at college is very different than high school. It's a lot more practical since you can see the outcome.

[smoky quest]

Plenty of time to fix that 😉

[timber hamlet]

I appreciate y'all. Its lowkey a little much to take in but. There is indeed time

[onyx basin]

ok far from that question...
I know how to program web applications, databases, GUI (desktop apps via tkinter), web scraping, (don't know if automation is one of them), and some useful modules...
what do I learn else to have a better grip of the work enviroment?
I know it depends on what's the job I'm looking for, but I really don't know which job I want expertise in.. any advises?

[fringe sphinx]

Many people have f’d up in school and have gotten back on track, I did and everything worked out ok. Start today, put more time into learning and less into whatever is distracting you. Learn to love learning, try to find something interesting in whatever you’re doing: thats what worked for me

[west flint]

I graduated highschool with a 2.34 I planned on going into a trade and I started and realized how much I hate grunt work so I went to community college to get my gpa up finished with a 3.5 now I'm at state university going for cyber security. its never too late to start just don't let any opportunity's pass you

[ocean jolt]

[when i meant any, i meant that the permissions are anywhere, not that you should post it in a random one]

lets move back to #python-discussion

[muted bridge]

this might be a dumb question, but how do I show that I've been doing leetcode problems? Should I just keep my solutions on a github repository?

[buoyant seal]

I would prefer finding GitHub account full of working applications instead of leet coding.
Quite sure I will just skip over repositories with Leetcoding as not important personal stuff accidentally published

[muted bridge]

I just don't have enough projects under my belt and I'd like to start supplementing my DSA class with some leetcode problems to practice for interviews

Obviously I hope to create projects this semester but I was wondering if it would hurt me if I showed both projects and leetcoding on my github account

[buoyant seal]

leetcoding is too short effort for any its level. each task is usually not requiring more than 10 or 50 code lines of effort at most.
I expect from demonstrated projects to be thousands code lines of effort (preferably dozens of thousands of code lines)

[buoyant seal]

coding is about... ability to write human readable and maintainable code that provides some service.
leetcoding does non of it, so pretty much useless for me to read any saved code with it at any candidate's account

[smoky quest]

why do you want to show your leetcode problems?

[muted bridge]

because I feel like having a place to post my work would motivate me to keep practicing, but since you're telling me it doesn't help I'll keep them private

[pine sleet]

You can post them to a github repository if you want but hiring managers most likely won't ever look at it

[smoky quest]

I haven't said anything yet 🙂

But yeah, in terms of career or resume, interviewers won't care about how many leetcode problems you did or your score on codeforce.

That said, if it makes you happy and helps stay motivated, go for it

[buoyant seal]

i keep repository with some useful scripts and code examples for personal usage. 😅 not really for sharing stuff pretty much, but it serves its goal.
Still often opening to find that command how to bind one linux volume to another one.

[muted bridge]

on a side note, how the heck do I balance grades, leetcode, and personal projects all at the same time? I keep finding myself sacrificing at least one of them for the others and I can never get things done

[white relic]

If you're a full time student, keeping your grades up is your actual job

[smoky quest]

I only do leetcode 2-3 weeks prior to interviews.
If you are at school, I would suggest to prioritize your grades, projects, etc.

[smoky quest]

If you want to learn about algorithms and datastructures, there is a great book called "introduction to algorithms". You would have a higher ROI learning from that book (and doing the exercises) than doing leetcode

[muted bridge]

do you know if cracking the coding interview helps with dsa

I blindly bought the book not knowing it was in java and I’m not sure if I should stick with it

[smoky quest]

it helps with interviews.
It does include some stuff about DSA but I haven't read it

[true harness]

it has mixed reviews

[muted bridge]

so far grades have always been my top priority, but I also really want to land an internship this year which is why I want to make sure I'm doing the right things as early as possible

[muted bridge]

the MIT book?

[smoky quest]

yep

[smoky quest]

yeah, it can be stressful to juggle with all these things

[muted bridge]

would you recommend simply getting the book or also watching their opencourseware course

[smoky quest]

haven't watched the course. So cannot comment.

Even these days I use the book as a reference. So it will still be useful

[muted bridge]

I'll check the book out then

wow this book is infinitely long

[fringe sphinx]

Just whatever you do: don’t think that leetcode alone is sufficient prep for a real job. Leetcode is a common hiring tool but not the entirety of the hiring process or even selection process.

[muted bridge]

Yeah I can see that

[craggy mantle]

Hey,
i whant to get an unpayed Job as an Python programmer do anyone know where to get this?

[true harness]

why don't you want to be paid?

[craggy mantle]

I am Not old enough and i just whant to learn and get Feedback.

[gritty rivet]

You can definitely contribute to open source projects, here are some ideas: https://github.com/MunGell/awesome-for-beginners#python

There are also lots of websites that match volunteer coders with nonprofits who need help like the ones listed here: https://raddevon.com/articles/get-coding-practice-while-doing-good-by-volunteering/

[craggy mantle]

Thank you

[clear sandal]

#python-discussion

[gaunt wren]

how stressful is a job in cyber security?

[pine sleet]

I hear people have described it as quite boring, filling out long reports and what not.
Though I don't work in the field so my information is 2nd hand at best

[pallid bluff]

If you know R do you also need python ?

[lapis wind]

To do what exactly? Get a job programming R? Maybe not, to get a job in something other than purely R? Probably, knowing one language is rarely 'enough'.

[balmy spade]

How stressful is any job? You'll have weeks where everything flows like water and the world is wonderful. You'll have weekends where log4j exploit drops and you don't sleep for 32 hours. There are employers that are fine to work with. There are employers that make clocking in the worst part of the day. Then there's the personal aspect: how stressed do you normally get?

[worthy ice]

Hi

[gaunt wren]

Not really ever? If that sounds right

[white relic]

Some people manage stress better than others. But also it can take time to learn what your own stress response is like. It can be very personal. I've had moments where I was like "I don't know why I'm so out of it recently" and the person I was talking to had to point out what kind of pressure I was under at work because I hadn't made the mental connection at all

I still sometimes learn new things about how I respond to stress and I need two hands to count my age in binary

[balmy spade]

It's true. Every time I think I've got a handle on how to react to new stressful situations life comes up with one I've never seen.

[peak halo]

I assume you mean "for careers involving data analysis". my guess is that more teams in that space use Python.

[vapid jay]

hypothetically if i was to become a self taught engineer or a self taught data analyst, which would be easier to land a job in?

it seems like there is definitely a big barrier of entry within CS and SWE related jobs due to things like Leetcode and programming personal projects. im not sure if such a thing exists in Data Analysis

[pine sleet]

I feel like it's even more important to have formal, higher level education for data analysts than it is for software engineers but that's just my intuition

[smoky quest]

Data Analysis will be more demanding on maths and concepts self taught rarely see.

In general, frontend is a popular entry point for self taught

[coarse crag]

i see. that makes sense. thank you recursive.

[brazen island]

Imo you do. I have colleagues that only know R and it's a pain.

R has an advantage in 2 places: very simple use cases and very advanced use cases. Basic data analysis is probably easier there.
For advanced use cases R has a lot of models that don't have a mature Python counterpart or just don't exist.

That being said, there's more teams that predominantly / exclusively use Python than vice versa. Investing in Python while just being able to read/write basic R is the best career move.

Realistically good data teams do more than plots, notebooks and powerpoints imo. The Python ecosystem is a lot stronger at all the rest you'll need (e.g., web, MLops, ...). From what I've seen R only teams tend to stick to notebooks, plots and powerpoints which is a bit boring in my opinion but depending on your background it might be a better fit.

[ivory compass]

Big barrier is just getting those interviews as self-taught and being taken seriously, I don't think personal projects matter unless its to improve your own skills. What matters are projects tailored towards the company you're in the interview process for. That is what seems to get me to the last round as it got rid of any doubt to my technical abilities. It is usually at that point they base it on experience for their choice of candidates to rub more salt into the wound.

[azure cairn]

Hi ! Does anyone have knowledge of data mining? come private message I pay 🙂

[balmy spade]

Personal projects to improve your own skills is one of the core purposes of those projects. They play a few vital roles, one of which is easy to overlook. You sound more confident the more practiced you are with the topic. For an interview process that's going to be quite valuable.
I do agree that in terms of experience measure, personal projects are not going to weigh heavily unless you know how to sell it. ((and that's communication soft-skills, an entirely different learning track))

[balmy spade]

You should read the #rules when you agree to them. You'd find rule #9 applies here. :)

[severe leaf]

Hey there guys, i got A question, have anybody here learn from codeacademy? Cause i want to buy yearly pro plan and learn backend starting with python, i są w that there are lessons for almost anything that i would need to start looking for work but i still Wonder if its worth it so i cake here for your opinion, cause i tried their trial of pro and i like it very much

[vapid jay]

I think it's a good idea myself

[vapid jay]

Some others will appreciate to see the LeetCode solutions

[vapid jay]

Lines of code might not be the perfect metric for assessing how difficult something is to put together. e.g. E = mc^2 is 1 line.

[vapid jay]

Some others think that LeetCode can showcase many qualities, not just algorithmic ingenuity

[near ocean]

No one that hires cares about you doing leetcode

[spark cobalt]

Maybe in an interview. But especially for things like Leetcode, what's stopping someone from just copying solutions and pasting it into their GitHub. Also, as others mention, Leetcode is not representative of your ability as a software engineer. Building some sort of system that has layers of architecture shows you have the ability to work within bigger systems than just some small algorithm script.

[vapid jay]

This comment saddens me deeply because of the way it is written and the message it sends but my top priority is respecting you as a person so I will just say that I disagree a lot, that you should supply data to back this up and that you are important to me

[vapid jay]

You could copy an app just like you could copy LeetCode

[spark cobalt]

Yes, you can. That's why you do projects that you're interested in and is something that you expand and create yourself rather than doing shit 50% of other applicants did and pray for the best.

You can't really do that with Leetcode problems.

[vapid jay]

Own project is less than open source contribution, in my mind. I could do an own project about anything and call it a success because it did what I wanted

[spark cobalt]

As an employer, what value do you get from Leetcode in GitHub that projects can't do better?

[vapid jay]

I don't need to understand where you wanted to go with that code. By the way, LeetCode I'd only use live as an assessment.. not offline

[spark cobalt]

Are you implying Leetcode is more representative of problems software engineers will tackle through everyday than projects within the same respective field/discipline?

[vapid jay]

No, I am not.

[spark cobalt]

Contradictory to what you said earlier.

[vapid jay]

Between nothing and LeetCode... I pick LeetCode. Between open-source contributions and LeetCode.. I pick open-source. I don't know whether "own project" is defined enough. Could be a terrible idea that one would know best not to implement at all...

[spark cobalt]

This comment saddens me deeply because of the way it is written and the message it sends but my top priority is respecting you as a person so I will just say that I disagree a lot, that you should supply data to back this up and that you are important to me

[vapid jay]

Which parts saddens you

[spark cobalt]

It would be a terrible idea to hire someone that never bothered to learn how to implement something!

[vapid jay]

Are you in hiring? To qualify your statement... not as a personal challenge. To enhance my understanding of where you are coming from

[spark cobalt]

Do you disagree?

This is the second time you've deflected.

[vapid jay]

Are you responsible for the hiring of anybody in Software Engineering, do you manage them as employees, review their performance or are tasked with reducing a list of N unscreened candidates to M shortlisted promising candidates?

[vapid jay]

never bothered to learn how to implement something!
Well... LeetCode is implementing something, isn't it?

[near ocean]

Youre asserting something, you provide the evidence
Being a contrarian like you have been in the past here wont get you anywhere

[spark cobalt]

Something that is likely not relevant to day to day task of said engineer. Which lowers your competitive ability, especially as a self taught person.

[vapid jay]

This saddened me:

Leetcode is not representative of your ability as a software engineer
a very odd, albeit extremely respected by me, take

[spark cobalt]

I just believe software engineering is more than 50 line scripts. But you are free to believe otherwise.

[near ocean]

Youre saddened by a whole laundry list of things it seems, are you an employed software dev?

[vapid jay]

is likely not relevant to day to day task of said engineer

how many LeetCode exercises have you solved? A lot?

[vapid jay]

No, I have never been employed in any capacity

[spark cobalt]

I think I did like 80? None of which is representative of what I do at work.

[vapid jay]

I think calling LeetCode 50 line scripts is a bit reductive. Just to understand better where you are coming from... are you familiar with the problem set?

[vapid jay]

Do you have an online profile?

[spark cobalt]

It sounds like you're arguing to argue. You answer questions and respond to statements with new seemingly unrelated questions.

[near ocean]

Why dont you believe in the experiences of employed software devs that leetcode doesnt represent your daily activities?

[spark cobalt]

You're free to believe what you want. In my experience, Leetcode ability is just a measure of problem solving abilities among other soft skills for a live interview and a technical test in being able to do fundamental basic coding on the job rather than your skill as a software engineer building products and building huge systems.

[vapid jay]

No, I am saying your insistence on LeetCode not being representative hinges on you being intimately familiar with the problem sets on LeetCode. I was asking for your LeetCode profile to take a look at which problems you solve and to empathise with your point of view and to understand better why you'd say that, perhaps feeling the same way as you based on the exercise numbers you solved. I am trying to find a way to agree with you.

[vapid jay]

I disagree with this:

is not representative of your ability as a software engineer
not this:
leetcode doesnt represent your daily activities

It is possible to think that observing a LeetCode solution still reveals a lot about general ability as a software engineer, even if LeetCode doesn't represent daily activities

[spark cobalt]

It represents that you can do basic coding and you know basic algorithms and you can solve problems at the smallest scale.

[vapid jay]

Or you just have exposure to LeetCode problems which are:

basic algorithms
and are of:
smallest scale

[spark cobalt]

Not necessarily. You're hired to solve problems, if someone came in memorizing a solution, that's not telling any interviewer the applicants ability to tackle problems.

[vapid jay]

What's your LeetCode profile? If you solved less than 80 exercises, it's still worth looking at the ones you did solve, to understand your point of view better

You can also just post the links to the exercises, without your profile. And maybe your solution to them

[near ocean]

Its only polite to share your own info before asking others

[vapid jay]

I am at exercise 7 of Project Euler, starting from 1. 1, 2, 3, ... 7, inclusive.

[spark cobalt]

As a person that's never been a software engineer before, what makes you so strongly believe that Leetcode is so prevalent on a job you've never had before?

[white relic]

They all are. Even the "hard"s. It would be useless as a live assessment otherwise

[near ocean]

Thats not leetcode though

[vapid jay]

All are basic algorithms?

[spark cobalt]

They are all basic implementations of algorithms. Some with a slight variant to it. But none too far off any given algorithm.

[vapid jay]

It is not, otherwise I would have shared my profile. Now let's see @spark cobalt 's profile or, if not that, the exercises they base their argument on

[near ocean]

You asked for a leetcode profile that could be linked to information like their real name, you share yours first

[vapid jay]

Which ones did you solve, if you'd like to share that info. If not, it is my # 1 priority to respect this desire of saying your are familiar with it, but not specifically what you are familiar with

[spark cobalt]

I'd also like to mention that nearly all software engineers work within some domain. Leetcode gives no domain knowledge whatsoever. It just shows you can write 50 line scripts.

[vapid jay]

I did say: if not the profile, the link to the exercises. Maybe you missed that message and I think you did that in good faith

[near ocean]

You cant link to the exercises without linking the profile

[spark cobalt]

I do not see the value of giving this information nor do I care to give it.

[near ocean]

Do you want 80+ different links? How is that helpful

[spark cobalt]

@vapid jay Just to mention, you are deflecting every point thrown at you based on one person's Leetcode profile. What about other people's testaments?

[vapid jay]

You could link to the URL and paste the code in a code block, maybe on #algos-and-data-structs not to clutter here. Where there's a will, there's a way

[near ocean]

You cant link to the exercises a user solved without then having access to other info
If you want someone to potentially doxx themselves you should volunteer for it first

[vapid jay]

Ok, I won't bother you with backing up where you are coming from and since I want to be immensely respectful of this desire of stating something without being specific, I will annotate your account now as "do not ask for evidence or data" so that I may not annoy you with this aspect of constructive exchanges. I consider you immune to it due to respected preference

[spark cobalt]

I just find it silly that someone that's never been a software engineer is telling software engineers how their day to day life goes.

[vapid jay]

URL without the solution, code posted here devoid of any linkage to the account

[near ocean]

So you want 80+ links to the exercises

[spark cobalt]

Respectfully, curating 80 links is not something people are going to do especially if I'm not personally getting value from it .

I do not think I'll get value from someone that's never been a software engineer studying the Leetcode problems I've solved and how it relates to a job they've never even had before.

[near ocean]

Best i can do is

[vapid jay]

Which sentence says "I know how your day to day life goes"? To understand you better. I assert in good faith that I never said such a thing. Have I?

[spark cobalt]

You are asserting that Leetcode is prevalent in day to day software engineer-ing.

[vapid jay]

I always volunteer not having experience to see if people would dismiss based on who I am rather than what I say.

[spark cobalt]

You have not shown that you will give value based on your constant deflecting and ignoring multiple comments.

[vapid jay]

Which, specifically? You ask, I answer

[spark cobalt]

I'd also like to mention that nearly all software engineers work within some domain. Leetcode gives no domain knowledge whatsoever. It just shows you can write 50 line scripts.

They are all basic implementations of algorithms. Some with a slight variant to it. But none too far off any given algorithm.

As a person that's never been a software engineer before, what makes you so strongly believe that Leetcode is so prevalent on a job you've never had before?

Why dont you believe in the experiences of employed software devs that leetcode doesnt represent your daily activities?

[vapid jay]

Do I believe you can infer Software Engineering skills from looking at a LeetCode solution? Yes, I do. Do I believe LeetCode problems are representative of day-to-day work? No, I do not. How do I think the former and not the latter? Because you can see many things in a solution, not just the solution.

[near ocean]

You cannot

[vapid jay]

I'd also like to mention that nearly all software engineers work within some domain. Leetcode gives no domain knowledge whatsoever. It just shows you can write 50 line scripts.

Domain specificity is, by definition, too specific to one domain and for general evaluation of competence it is good to see domain-neutral competence and it is possible to show it.

[near ocean]

Being a software engineer is more than small, isolated, well defined problems

[spark cobalt]

^

[vapid jay]

They are all basic implementations of algorithms. Some with a slight variant to it. But none too far off any given algorithm.

Some are most definitely not "basic implementations" and creative composition of algorithms is a skill typically used, especially seeing patterns for possible composition

As a person that's never been a software engineer before, what makes you so strongly believe that Leetcode is so prevalent on a job you've never had before?

I never said that. Do link to where I might have said it and I will consider the link.

Why dont you believe in the experiences of employed software devs that leetcode doesnt represent your daily activities?

I never said it and happen to believe that, and said it above, which means you are understandably reading only parts of my messages, which I empathise with.

[spark cobalt]

Do I believe you can infer Software Engineering skills from looking at a LeetCode solution? Yes, I do.

What software engineering skills specifically? Besides you can do basic coding...

[vapid jay]

I never said that that is all what that is

[vapid jay]

Many. I offer to show you by looking at some code, but we need to find a place to do that as it's off topic here. Notice to the admins: I am the first to propose stopping the off-topic drift in case it goes there

[near ocean]

So why do you think you can infer software engineering skills from it
Can you infer good doctoring skills by how clean a cut someone can make?

[spark cobalt]

All I see from Leetcode is just how an applicant tackles and approaches problems. Is it methodical? Is it just rush and code in? How do they communicate their thought process to interviewers? Do they make sure they understand the problem?

Leetcode itself is just some standardized way to measure problem solving capabilities among some other soft skills rather than being a testament to your hard skills, hard skills being primarily backed up by prior experience, projects, etc. (A major reason why Leetcode is the standard is because it is unrealistic for most positions to have someone do a problem they'd experience day to day in a realistic time frame for an interview.)

[vapid jay]

You can read a lot into a simple algorithmic implementation. Anything from problem decomposition, type structuring, responsibility boundaries, function signature design, strict typing, scaling consideration, mutability considerations, concurrency considerations, readability, correct usage of language idioms, etc. A long list which I could continue developing but it would be off topic here.

[vapid jay]

Based on this comment I realise we will never agree and that now it's important that we just stay friends. I offer staying friends. Thanks for your valuable input.

[near ocean]

And that still wouldnt tell you if someone's a good engineer

[spark cobalt]

^ And the primary issue is just scale.

[vapid jay]

What do you think is missing that could be gathered from code looked at elsewhere? And where?

[spark cobalt]

Just because someone can nail two wooden boards together does not mean they can build a house is basically our point. As a software engineer, you will be working on a house, building a house up, etc., much more than just nailing two wooden boards together. (Where to nail two wooden boards together, maybe how its nailed needs to be different depending on where you're nailing it together, etc.)

You may be literally nailing two wooden boards together (just how you may literally be coding some function in a Leetcode problem and in the actual job), but the difference is two wooden boards in a closed system vs a house requires completely different knowledge and expertise and experience.

And take it a step further. Houses are not the only thing that are built. What about skyscrapers, parking lots, etc. You saying you can nail two wood pieces together doesn't really mean anything when you cannot intelligently do anything in a real world application.

[near ocean]

You cannot gather everything from code
The most complete way to determine if someone's a good engineer is to work with them

[dense remnant]

From what I understand, Machine Learning Engineer positions do not need a PhD, only a Bachelor's or Master's degree, while the others do since they are from academia, right?

[spark cobalt]

Projects/Prior experience is brought up in interviews a lot for this reason. Following same analogy as before, common questions will ask why you nailed a certain piece of wood this way, why is the foundation of the house this way, why did you use a certain type of paint (maybe there's something with the environment/weather, or local toxin regulations, etc.)

[buoyant seal]

leetcoding is aimed at writing some tricky/neat-pick code

• doing leetcode u mostly show you potentially know this neat-pick code types (obscure inbuilt libraries to write the least amount of code)
• potentially able to write edge case covering code
• (sometimes rarely leetcoding offers some performance optimizated writing code at the level of DSA)

at work:

• you aim to write code that is readable and maintainable (often enough it is the opposite of using neat-pick type of code. complex comprehensions are heavily discouraged for example)
• you aim to write unit testable code (means u wrote unit tests and your code architecture is unit testable)
  • u cover edge cases too, but unless u wrote unit tests to confirm the result, this edge case is not counted as solved at all
  • u aim to write maintainable and good exception handling in your code
• you wrote the code that is observable (monitoring/tracing/logging integrations)
• you aim to write somewhat performant code... but with the right golden balance to not overengineer it. Performance optimized code has certain involved costs, it is really bad to use all performance optmizations from the start
• (high quality level), u write also actually strictly typed code that is ultra easy to refactor and maintain and faster to read by magnitude 😄
• you need to write comprehensive self documentation to the code, with naming in a very good way each thing, and writing comprehensive comments for very tricky situations to explain your choices
• The ULTIMATE goal of writing work code essentially: Writing in the most maintainable code, when the least possible complexity to comprehend it (brain human is limited, big code bases can grow infinity in complexity) and in reasonable time frames

[dense remnant]

The best thing one can do to study is to contribute to Open Source projects, do Leet Code + Project Euler + AventureOfCode, and create projects

[white relic]

It isn't my field exactly, but I would expect most ML positions to require an MS at least or PhD with preference. I don't know what "others" you might be thinking of. Most software development/SWE positions are not as researchy as ML

[dense remnant]

And focus on what is most fun for you.

[vapid jay]

The best thing one can do to study is to contribute to Open Source projects
we agree 100% on this

[dense remnant]

Alr, thanks

[spark cobalt]

Perhaps some story is taught to college kids that is just plain wrong or something regarding day to day life of SWE.

Not sure why these people believe these things with almost no backing whatsoever.

[near ocean]

Its all on youtubers and tiktok shorts

[spark cobalt]

Maybe

Sucks that a lot of people getting information from these medias just do not know enough to determine truth or not and just end up riding with it because the YouTuber is some authority figure.

Sucks that it extends past career stuff and even fundamental coding stuff too

Oh well! Nothing I can do!

[sick remnant]

did anyone go sixth form for computer science? and what was it like?

[lapis wind]

Yes, it is alright, it is realistically still quite basic as far as computer science goes, but I enjoyed it as a course.
In terms of getting into Uni, a lot of comp sci courses will accept a CS A-level, but oxbridge unis tend to want Maths as the main with possibly something like further maths.

[sick remnant]

what about btechs?

[lapis wind]

which ones 😅

there are a lot of btechs... They are mostly equivalent to A-levels, but some of the more prestigious universities won't accept them in place of an A level in something like Maths or Further maths for example.

[sick remnant]

Cs btech

Did you need to know any programming languages to get into the btech?

I tried learning on my own and it didn't work out

I think I might do a btech since the school I go to doesn't even do IT as a subject so I wouldn't be able to do a it gcse

Haven't done my maths gcse's yet but I think I could do well. Maths has always been my favourite subject and I do quite well in it but thats my opinion

[terse lion]

Friends, should I add "started to this bootcamp" section to my LinkedIn while still working at a place? Bootcamp owners, or, advisors said "we dont give a shit if you work at another place during the courses / bootcamp", but I dont know if the HR or CEOs takes this as a bad behaviour

[pearl canopy]

Python is trash

[white relic]

since you participated in a code jam, I'll assume you're not a scammer and give you a chance to delete your nonsense spam instead of jumping straight to reporting it

[unborn plaza]

dude welcome to a world where people just have fun
who believes they can buy immortality?

[white relic]

regardless, not topical for this channel (or this server)

[terse lion]

ok

[raw surge]

hey guys i have a question, so there are these degrees you can get (comptia a+, security+ and network+...), well you have to pay 300$+ for each one to be able to participate in the test, i wanted to know can i just put it in my resume that i have participated in a [free] comptia course? i have found their videos online but of course i cant do the test to get the degree.

[pine sleet]

How was it free? Did you take it through an educational institution where it was paid for by them?

[raw surge]

you know

[pine sleet]

I really don't

[true harness]

for software engineering generally, the learning is more valuable than the certificate itself

[raw surge]

uh jesus i knew someone is going to say this
if you dont know the answer to the bold quesiton dont answer

[pine sleet]

Honestly you could just say you did the free course. Better to leave it out in my opinion, as pretty much no hiring manager will care

[vapid jay]

These aren't degrees; they're courses. What matters isn't which courses you've taken or videos you've watched, but the skills you can demonstrate. Simply attending a course guarantees zero competence. I leave such silly things unmentioned.

[pine sleet]

Especially if it's free and just anyone can take it

[gritty rivet]

A lot depends on your resume as a whole and what you're applying for but generally, no, nobody cares that you took some courses for certs you don't have. If you know the stuff get the cert or show it in other ways

[fringe sphinx]

I agree with the above, except wanted to add: for non-SWE positions (such as QA/support/operations/etc), there's value showing continued/professional education.

[pine sleet]

Please don't ask for help with ToS-violating projects anywhere in this server

Doesn't matter, please don't ask in this server about this project again

[slender lion]

where do I ask that this problem is related what? Its probably my pc in my friends pc its working well

and my pc got very High specs too soo im confused at this point
this question is nothing related to pc not code

[pine sleet]

Don't know. Not many servers allow you to ask for help with projects that violate ToS, but wherever that is, it's not here

[slender lion]

just forgot about the project part bTw coz that is non related to my question that's why** im not gonna ask something here which violates discord tos **thanks

[somber pawn]

A level is in the UK, right?

[lapis wind]

Yes

[somber pawn]

are you british?

[lapis wind]

Am brit'sh

[somber pawn]

good for you, you can get into good unis.

[lime pike]

Um...guys can I ask for a laptop suggestion here?

[gritty rivet]

No, try #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

[lime pike]

Ty.

[timid drum]

should I learn c++ or javascript or rust

[fringe sphinx]

What do you already know?

[fringe sphinx]

But in general, all of them are good to learn. With no context, they're all good options.

[deft herald]

yes

[timid drum]

python

[fringe sphinx]

You know your question is like: "What should I eat today? Hamburger, Pizza or Hot Dog?"

[timid drum]

ooof

[timid drum]

i just wanna learn something else, with no real goal, can you pls help me pick one

[fringe sphinx]

https://rolladie.net/roll-a-d3-die

[empty summit]

JAVA

[timid drum]

ew

[fringe sphinx]

!ot Also, this question isn't really for this channel. The OT channels are the right place.

[inner wren]

Off-topic channel

#ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[empty summit]

Tf

[fringe osprey]

Hey guy,
Do you happen to have some insides about working at Bitdefender?I got a job offer for a Tehnical Support Engineer and from de the details it sounds like a call center job. :/

[gritty rivet]

The odds anyone here will know anything about any specific company are pretty slim. Try Glassdoor, LinkedIn etc.

[deft herald]

Tehnical Support Engineer
Yeah i mean that definitely sounds like a call center type thing

[balmy spade]

Technical Support Engineer sounds like a tier 1 position. That usually includes a call queue, ticket system, and chat/email depending on the company setup. The question I'd have is if it's an internal support role or external. Internal isn't bad and can be an excellent experience if you have none.

[deft herald]

But if you got an offer, you should have probably alraedy asked questions about the job itself during the interview process

[true harness]

at the application stage you should have a pretty good idea..

[inner hamlet]

I recently had an interview the interviewer asked me about Overloading and Overriding and I responded about the polymorphic behaviour of the child class and told him the differences between the two types of polymorphism. He went on with a counter question. Here is what he asked; How do you know that now you have to override the parent class's method? and I responded with this; When we run into the situation that with the same signature if a sub class behave differently then that of its parent then we need to override the method. He went on and asked; What's the specific key point that whenever occurs you have to overrode a parent class's behaviour?
Can someone correct me if I am missing something here, what he was referring to? As per theory the answer I responded with was sufficient. Can someone correct me please?

[buoyant seal]

He was asking about abstract classes (from abc import ABC)
And @abstractmethod

[inner hamlet]

No, I don't think so. Abstract classes may or may not have abstract method, having abstract method nullifies the point he raised.

[buoyant seal]

Well, in python @abstractmethod and its similar variants are exactly signal that u need to override this method in child

[inner hamlet]

In case of abstract method it becomes compulsory for us to implement the method's behaviour in child class.

[buoyant seal]

Question was:

How do you know that now you have to override the parent class's method?

I know it by abstract declared methods 🙂 they declare (yes compulsory) that I need to override it
Do u have other possible answers?

[inner hamlet]

That is just one case. We can have non abstract class and it's child class again a non abstract class can have its own implementation of a shared method signature.

[buoyant seal]

Sure... we can. But in general deep nested(multi level) inheritance is heavily discouraged.
One level is enough and fine

Composition is more preferred for more complexity

[inner hamlet]

We are taking theory into consideration. We know sometimes theory isn't the best way to proceed with.

[buoyant seal]

That u can do Everything in Python, it does not mean u should

[inner hamlet]

We are not being language specific at this point.

[sullen onyx]

hey guys

i have to submit a research proposal for my communication in enggineering class
although i have no idea how to choose a topic, in computer engineering field

im fairly new to this research thing

just need some help finding topic for the same

[gritty rivet]

Your professor or classmates will be better able to help you since we have no context about the assignment.

If you just want a broad list of idea about relevant topics this looks pretty comprehensive. https://www.ece.cornell.edu/ece/research/strategic-research-areas

[sullen onyx]

hey thanks for replying

so far the professor has instructed about some topic relevant to my field, which is Masters in Computer Engineering
for now im thinking something about Future of AI / How AI and ML are changing everyday lives
stuff like that

[gritty rivet]

When I was in college decades ago I did a research paper on quantum computing, which was super new. Personally I feel like that would be an interesting area to look at again now. But this is just one idea and there are endless possibilities.

Obviously the other big thing people are talking about now is generative AI and LLM and how that's impacting various things

[gritty rivet]

LOL, I'm too slow... so yeah, if that's acceptable for the assignment and its interesting to you, then go for it!

[sullen onyx]

alright, im on it thanks

[quaint dock]

Is python developer career better than a web developer job?

[gritty rivet]

Titles are just titles and we don't know what "better" means to you. Plus those can overlap and aren't always two separate things.

[smoky quest]

based on which metric?

[quaint dock]

Well, I mean if I am preparing for a python developer career, then with those stuff can I enter into the field of web developer. As python is used in backend? Or I wanna go with some deep contents in python?

[smoky quest]

In general people prepare themselves for a software engineer career. The language is just a tool like a screwdriver. And by that same token, you have mechanics who build boats, spaceships and trains. Not screwdriver engineers vs drill engineer.
Note also that the field can change quite dramatically over the years. What was popular in 2010 is very different from what is popular today.

If you are in HS or college, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[fringe sphinx]

Most SWEs have learned multiple languages. Often you end up working with a language you didn’t know.

[smoky quest]

some languages that will be popular in 10 years don't necessarily exist today

[fringe sphinx]

Who knows, maybe Erlang will become popular 🙂

[quaint dock]

Yeah, fine..

[smoky quest]

it's not too late 🕶️

[quaint dock]

Yeah true.. 100%

[fringe sphinx]

And as web development tooling has improved, the ‘pure web developer’ role has become less distinct

I haven’t hired a pure web dev in a long time

[quaint dock]

Yeah, I too have seen many of them like that. But as a beginner I thought of moving towards one particular career. I had two choices, python developer and web developer .. I don't know which one will be better and just because of that, I asked you guys which one is better. So that it would be useful for me.

[smoky quest]

people can be successful in either. It's more of a matter of preferences and keeping an open mind

[quaint dock]

Yup, I agree with you..

[smoky quest]

I would suggest to try both on your spare time and see how it feels

[quaint dock]

Sure.. I would love to .. 👍

[fringe sphinx]

I’d also say: beginners should -not- think about career specialties. Not until they have a solid foundation (ie: able to code reasonably complex projects) and a little experience. There’s so much you don’t know about, especially what types of projects you enjoy.

[smoky quest]

nice! Have fun!

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe check out something like CS50x, which has a broad coverage of topics

[quaint dock]

Yeah ofcourse.. 👍

[peak torrent]

Hey guys, quick question
My school is offering a free bootcamp + voucher for comptia security +. We will meet every week for about 2hrs per week for about two months. However, rhey will have the spring term option. Which is 4 months long 2 hrs per week.
On my side, i am almost done with htb bug hunter path. So , i am wondering if I should take the fall term or spring? I don’t too spend too many hours per week (not more than 4-6 per week) because I have a full time job + school .
I will appreciate u guys opinion

I would considering in taking it because is free and I something that I like, but not looking to get overwhelmed with too much work

[modern ore]

what is this question lmao

[peak halo]

please don't be rude. either explain why that question doesn't make sense, or leave them alone.

[smoky quest]

We don't know your schedule and can't really help there.

In general, I would go by:

• Least regret framework: what will generate the least amount of regret?
• Bias to action: action is better than inaction
• Why would things be better in spring than now?

[peak halo]

these aren't mutually exclusive. but one isn't really employed as a "python developer". one can be employed as a web developer, or a backend system developer, who uses python.

[quaint dock]

Oh I see.. Thanks a lot @peak halo

[peak torrent]

thank you sir, very good feedback. My schedule rn is pretty good I have pretty much my weekends free. I work around 40-47 hrs on my job. On the other hand, I study around 5-10 hrs per week for my other three courses. English, federal goverment, and speaking. (nothing technical or relative hard) and I would love to get it as soon as I can because If I take the spring term option I will be applying for the examn around may 2024 and I will be not longer "elegible" to apply for local internships

I guess I got the answer 😄

[smoky quest]

sometimes we only need a rubber duck

[peak torrent]

thanks brother! ♥️

[peak torrent]

dude, totally agree!!!!!!!!!!

[delicate bane]

cobol resurgence when. actually, this was a topic on the most recent compiler podcast

[fringe sphinx]

I’ve heard this for decades (the latent demand for cobol programmers), but always assumed it was some inflated myth

[delicate bane]

if you (and/or lurkers) are interested https://spotify.link/7PZOksQXzDb

[inland light]

Is it worth learning Python, JavaScript, and C/C++ to do freelance developer work?

What percentage of Python developers are freelancers?

[gritty rivet]

This has more to do with you then with anyone else. Do you like building stuff with JavaScript?

[fringe sphinx]

The "freelancers" I know are really independent consultants with significant experience. At the bottom end of the market (fiverr upwork etc), I dunno, I guess i'd say go look at job postings. (I'm answering the "is it worth it... to do freelance.."

[gritty rivet]

It barely matters what you learn, it matters how well you learn it. Take your pick and get really good at it.

[inland light]

I’m getting good at Python first. It’s a highly in demand language. I mostly through this Python course. It’s a super good course.

But also I know there’s a bunch of areas to learn in order to be a decent Python developer

Once I complete this Python course gonna learn Python web development. Will I need JavaScript to do this?

Or is there a front end Python framework to complement Django that I don’t know about?

I found this are these good? https://www.infoworld.com/article/3700689/3-python-web-frameworks-for-beautiful-front-ends.html

I’m thinking I don’t want to switch languages so learning full-stack Python would be great

[lapis wind]

My recommendation, is learn HTML, CSS, JS for frontend

it is... Largely pointless trying to do all your frontend with python, you can do some basic sites with HTML, CSS and templating like Jinja, but realistically at least from a employability perspective, you are probably going to be expected as a full-stack web developer, to know JS as a minimum, and realistically JS comes up pretty often, it's definitely not a bad thing to know

[inland light]

Ok. If I am focusing on Python for web development and I am learning Python first, when do I add in JavaScript?

[lapis wind]

when you start doing the frontend

and want to do things like "Get this user input on a form and submit it without re-loading the page" etc...

[inland light]

Ok. So don’t I need full stack to be employed?

[lapis wind]

If you want to be employed, I would say keep an open mind and learn as many languages as you can/are interested in.
It is very rare as a developer you are expected to purely know one language and one language only.

[inland light]

So should I work without JS just to practice Python and write my own sites for learning then add in JS before I start advertising my services online on like Fiverr or Upwork?

I’m assuming I will need html and css of course too as well as sql

[lapis wind]

learn one language fairly well first, that will teach you the fundamentals, then start learning JS, etc...
Once you learn one language it's much quicker to pick up the others, learning a new syntax tends to be quick 🙂 it's the fundamentals/concepts that take time to get the hang of

[inland light]

Ok. But ok so doesn’t it take time to get good even at one language? Is it realistic to be employable in a year? I’m on chapter 19 of 30 of this Python course

[lapis wind]

doesn’t it take time to get good even at one language
Yes

Is it realistic to be employable in a year
It really depends on the person and how much time you're spending, people learn at different rates.
My honest opinion though would probably not, or at least you would still be very junior in terms of being employable by a company.

[inland light]

What about not by a company but for freelance stuff?

Should I take trade school classes in Python?

[lapis wind]

I mean freelance kinda depends, since a lot of stuff is effectively slave wages, so you could probably get by writing some selenium web scraper for $5

[inland light]

Ok I get it. Thanks.

Thanks for the honesty. Would it be better to take trade school Python classes?

[lapis wind]

my general opinion of freelance work though is bad 😅 Unless you have lots desirable specialised skills or an existing client base / connections, it can be hard to not end up in a situation where you're getting payed $5 for 10 hours or work.

[inland light]

Ok thanks

[lapis wind]

Would it be better to take trade school Python classes?
I can't really say, I don't know of any trade school python classes, but in general i'd say learning a language just takes time and effort, taking trade school classes isn't nessesarily going to make you learn faster.

[gritty rivet]

Your best bet to doing any kind of development work professionally is to get a CS degree. There are bootcamps that help you get job ready in less time but most successful bootcamp grads have degrees and professional experience in other fields.

[buoyant egret]

nobody tells me where I can for free learn Python without it throwing me and now teaching me

I need to know I tried Tynker but I learned everything by its Reading and it is too easy

I need somewhere better

[smoky quest]

"automate the boring the stuff" is a popular free resource for beginners

[fringe sphinx]

Besides the resource, hang out in #python-discussion and ask questions when you’re stuck

[quaint dock]

Yeah ofcourse..

[spare ridge]

can anyone tell me why my cached ram is like 7gb while total ram is 16gb (dosn't let me use more than 8gb ram at once) please, would be a great help

[crisp stream]

try asking in an off-topic channel (like #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare) instead of here

[digital dew]

Hello guys! I'm learning Python around 2 months, and I confused bcs I haven't any idea how to use my knowlenge in solve challenges. Can someone share some experience?

[safe geyser]

where i can find some good beginner material for learning python?

[pallid ferry]

Anyone willing to give me feedback for my Resume ?

[true harness]

a screenshot, please

[pallid ferry]

There it is ^^

Like this ?

[safe geyser]

why are you speaking 4 languages

[pallid ferry]

Should I get rid of that section ?

[fringe sphinx]

Way too much space on Skills. Pack this all into one page.

Example; https://s2.studylib.net/store/data/025824673_1-bfe4210f5afc45a5d7f4f1585b3110bd-768x994.png

[pallid ferry]

Thanks for providing this Resume.

Alright, I'll pack the stuff together.

[dapper vigil]

I think it depends where you’re applying. Resumes in the US seem pretty different to Europe - that example for Jake Ryan seems too plain. And if you’re in Europe you definitely need to list your four languages.

[pallid ferry]

And maybe add picture ?

[tender frost]

Of what? CVs/resumes don't normally have images

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, my point was only about the Skills section being too verbose in Xardas'. And that a college student's resume should fit on one page. Not the overall style. There's two common templates that we see around here: Awesome CV and Jake's,

[true harness]

I do agree Jake's is a bit bland. but honestly I don't think it matters that much

[dapper vigil]

They do here in France - it’s pretty normal to have a photo of yourself.

[fringe sphinx]

Really? That seems like a big opportunity for bias to creep into the resume review process.

[dapper vigil]

Interesting. Yeah, they look quite simple - but nice and tidy, too

[dapper vigil]

Yeah, it’s a bit 1980s ! But I’ve been told to do it by many CV experts here. France is … different

[gritty rivet]

I've received resumes with photos, and lists of irrelevant private data like religion, age, marital status... this is still common in many countries but was quite shocking to me at first. Not that long ago (and maybe still today) those were listed with the job requirements too.

[pallid ferry]

What about past job salary ?

I can easily lie about those anyway..

[spark cobalt]

Apparently it's very common for many European countries. I think Germany is one of them (where he's at.)

Image of the applicant.

[tender frost]

Yeah, I mean it's fundamentally bad to be including photos of yourself in a CV/resume because of the bias implications, as BillyBobby mentioned

Same reason you shouldn't include protected characteristics (age, religion, race, gender, marital status, disabilities, etc.)

Bias exists even subconsciously

Every recruiter has bias, whether they want to or not. By removing the protected characteristics, you're making it much easier for the recruiter to not be biased

[fringe sphinx]

I wouldn't be surprised if HR departments (in the US) had blanket policies to reject such resumes, to protect them from accusations of bias. This was a very carefully watched area when I worked in big tech: diversity of candidates was a high priority (not diversity of hiring, specifically: the idea was to increase opportunity, but not mandate an outcome)

[dapper vigil]

Well, yes. But if a recruiter expects a photo and you don’t include one, you hit bias there too. It’s just a different culture with different expectations and it does no good to tell people they should do it your way…

[vapid jay]

interesting topic

[marsh wind]

yes, In here (France) you risk your reseume being discarded just bcs you had not included a photo... Esepcially in your first jobs where market is ultra competitve, every tiny things can play against you

[pallid ferry]

Some people include it in their cover letter instead.

fyi, I recently applied for a Job as a Django developper, I was asked to upload my picture 🙂

[fringe sphinx]

What country?

[pallid ferry]

Germany

I guess the process is different in Europe

[gritty rivet]

Any idea how they would justify this? "well that's what we've always done"? I'm shocked all over again to realize this is still happening in Europe.

[dapper vigil]

It was quite a culture shock when I moved here from Scotland six years ago! But you have to adapt or go mad 😀

[marsh wind]

they just don't..... I think if you'd ask them asnwer would be smth like "that's how we always done things"

tbh in today's market so many ppl have linkedin in tech... just go look up their face there if you really want ot

[fringe sphinx]

Thinking about it, I'm assuming it has to do with how litigious the US has become. European law... and employment law in particular... is vastly differently than in the US.

[dusk turret]

It's all because of legacy. Legacy systems are hard to change.

[white relic]

Asking for a picture seems odd to me too, but in fairness to Europeans, if you put your name on your résumé there's a good chance someone can be biased by your ethnicity anyway

[steel kindle]

I have my LinkedIn on my resume

[dusk turret]

Yes. Here in Germany I know people that use a more German or English sounding name instead of their real name. Apparently it helps when doing business.

[fringe sphinx]

lol, reminds me when they made me business cards for China, and gave me a chinese translated name.

I don't think I fooled anyone

[dusk turret]

Speaking of which, I have also met some chinese with English names, but those aren't there real names.

I think it's just to simplify conversation - if you need to refer to someone and can't really pronounce their name, you run into problems.

I personally have had this experience with my name since I have a German name, but I grew up in a Spanish speaking country and nobody could pronounce my real name.

[white relic]

I have an easier to pronounce nickname that I use in situations like that

[delicate bane]

yeah i have seen the same for european ones

something something context matters, probably

[true harness]

the recruiters at my company don't even look at the name of the your school because there are things like HBCUs which might introduce bias

[dusk turret]

The only real way to eliminate bias is to remove the humans from the process.

[steel kindle]

Not looking at school name is interesting, haven’t seen a company that takes it that far

[tender frost]

So in France, you get bias if you do provide a photo, and if you don't. Nice /s

That's why it's a "problem" to expect this sorta thing -- either way you get bias

[true harness]

ideally it'd be possible to remove any identifying info as well as proxy variables, but that's kinda hard

[steel kindle]

Yeah I think it depends on the company you’re at. Mine does recruit from specific schools so I doubt they’d ever not give hiring managers that info.

[true harness]

huh. doesn't that limit diversity somewhat? everyone will have had the same professors

[steel kindle]

I mean they don’t exclusively recruit form them

But yeah it probably does to an extent

I think they might just work with those schools or something, I’m not sure. I didn’t go to one.

[marsh wind]

sadly yes. I did notice though that with more senior profiles you see way less of resumes with pictures.

[tender frost]

I suppose that's something

But yeah, that's the flaw with requiring photos / protected characteristics. Either way you get bias

[gaunt wren]

can someone help me out?

what are all the attainable IT and COMPSci related degrees?

I haven't been able to find out much about it.

Bachelors related

[peak halo]

what do you mean by "attainable"?
computer science is the most popular software-related degree. whereas IT is more of a business degree.

[sacred cargo]

Hello, I have a bit of a silly question, but what's most common freelance work that is related to python? Like bots or websites?

[spark cobalt]

How I see it (might be wrong): Most European countries don't have the degree of diversity (largely in race, largely in widespread shared beliefs/culture) to have to address such issues, much less any core history that addressed these issues. So the more traditional idea/mindset of that the picture helps you "meet" the candidate prior to actually meeting them takes precedence.

[spark cobalt]

Probably website related. Though Python will only be one of several tools you'd be using in that department, it wouldn't be an exclusively Python task.

[gaunt wren]

like what are the diffrent types fo compsi degrees

sorry that I phrased it bad lol

[pine sleet]

Computer science is a degree. I don't believe there are types of it. Are you asking about different kinds of degrees that specialize in computers?

[peak halo]

there isn't another one that's exactly the same as CS (computer science is a degree, not a type of degree). software engineering has some similarities, but would presumably have less theory.

[gaunt wren]

yeah like for example ive heard cyber security degree is a thing ? correct me if im wrong.

[pine sleet]

It is. Though CS has been a standard for decades, so it's a good foundational degree to get for undergrad and maybe specialize in grad school if that's something you want to do

[gaunt wren]

could you link a list of related degrees ?

[fringe sphinx]

There's all sorts of degrees, lots of universities have specialized undergraduate degrees that are hybrids or specialized tracks. I always use this as an example: https://www.wpi.edu/academics/study/interactive-media-game-development-bs

[pine sleet]

It depends on the university

[gaunt wren]

Im terrible at maths and if i can would like to avoid it lol

[fringe sphinx]

I doubt you're going to avoid college calc in any technical program 🙂

[pine sleet]

Your computer science track will unfortunately contain a fair bit of advanced mathematics

[peak halo]

I would avoid writing yourself off as "bad at math". I think that being "bad at math" is more of a state of mind that stems from a shitty math education, rather than an inherent lack of symbolic reasoning skills. (which is what programming kind of is.)

[fringe sphinx]

I like math. Hated math class.

[gaunt wren]

so do all computer related degrees contain maths? Like for example software engineering?

[pine sleet]

Software engineering shares maybe 80-90% of courses with CS

Computers are, after all, an application of mathematics

[gaunt wren]

okay so one way or another I have to deal with maths?

[fringe sphinx]

Safe to say, any thing with engineering in the title requires calc 1 and 2 minimum, with a few others (stats etc)

[pine sleet]

Any engineering field you want to go into you will deal with a fair bit of maths

[gaunt wren]

so what degree should i be doing?

if they all contain maths which would be the best?

[pine sleet]

What do you want to be doing?

[peak halo]

yes, and I would encourage you to view this as a positive. you might try learning some of the more difficult parts (integration, stats) on your own, so you aren't under as much pressure when you have to learn it in a higher-stakes situation.

[peak halo]

CS is probably the best option. Whatever you want to do that involves programming in some way, you can start with a bachelors in CS.

[pine sleet]

CS will give you a good fundamentals for pretty much anything computer science related you want to do. It opens up many doors

[fringe sphinx]

(Plus, most of the specialized degrees are really just CS degrees with certain electives already picked)

[gaunt wren]

im 19 still so obv dont have my life figured out yet but i want to try go towars software or cyber security . I have practiced and learnt a fair amount of python ,html and css and although struggle to focus do find it enjoyable , and thought i would give a shot towards a Compsci degree

[pine sleet]

If it helps, I'm 17 and I want to go into software engineering - I'm doing my BS CS right now

[spark cobalt]

CS is most standard route that branches out to most things. Especially if you have no understanding of the industry, CS is best option.

[steel kindle]

That’s essentially what computers are, math machines

[gaunt wren]

ive been out of school for 3 years , am trying to get my shit together aswell

[steel kindle]

But like everyone else said, if you aren’t 100% sure what you want to do, but know you want to do something with computers, CS is probably the way to go

[spark cobalt]

Gl my guy

[fringe sphinx]

My advice: take one class at a time. Get some of the hard stuff out of the way. Pre-Calc, Calc 1, Calc 2... you'll have to take it, so just knock it out in community college.

[gaunt wren]

one thing i would like to know and i am aware its not recommended but are there an decent online colleges?

[pine sleet]

Getting gened classes out of the way at a local CC is an exceedingly good idea financially. Though if "college life" is something you care about maybe not so much

[steel kindle]

I am not aware of any for undergrad. Maybe GT has an undergrad program though. Their online masters is pretty good.

[fringe sphinx]

The best way to check is to see what your local state university accepts for transfer credit.

[steel kindle]

^

[gaunt wren]

My country isn't the best and i cant attend uni or college here due to professors being incompetent

[steel kindle]

What country?

[gaunt wren]

and due to "People" not allowing certain races into the unis( i dont mean the unis themselves im talking about people from other political parties threatening to kill you)

[steel kindle]

Ah

[gaunt wren]

South africa

needless to say as a white dude here best option is to go to online uni .

[steel kindle]

Yeah I have heard that they go pretty strong on an affirmative action like system there

[gaunt wren]

yup

[steel kindle]

Maybe someone else will have some input, but like I said the only decent online school I’m aware of is for graduate degrees, but there must be something for undergraduate

[gaunt wren]

if you are white and own a business you must give 50% of your business to a black partner

ive heard of this place but its got mixed reviews ( like most places) but still https://www.uopeople.edu

[steel kindle]

I mean that one is tuition free, so if the material is decent it can’t be too bad

[brazen island]

Where I live there's like 5-6 options to study "CS" and the bottom 2 have zero math. Does the US not have math-less programming degrees?

[true harness]

we have low calorie versions but from what I've seen they still have decent amounts of math, maybe 3-4 upper level courses swapped for something else

[gaunt wren]

total cost is like 300 dollars

[true harness]

my uni's version still has you take data structures, stat, and calc 1

[gaunt wren]

310* with registration

[steel kindle]

Pretty much always math, yeah. I mean Computer Science is pretty much a math degree.

[modern ore]

Have you done it previously?

[steel kindle]

currently am in it

[delicate bane]

wait what do those 2 programs look like? curious

[brazen island]

One of them is super practice focused and trains you to be able to write software under very very clear instructions / guidance.

The other one is more "well rounded" but doesn't do math, stats, DS&A, etc. it's totally not a theoretical degree but they do get to see all practical aspects of software engineering including advanced topics like distributed software etc.

The higher you go up this pyramid the more mathy it becomes and the less it has anything to do with reality. The actual "computer science" degree here delivers, on average, probably worse juniors than the 2nd one I described. The thing is, they tend to improve at a higher rate this and get extremely good extremely fast. Obvs it's hard to tell which is correlated with which, do smarter folk pick (our) comp science and thus get further or does the degree (all the theoretical stuff) equip them with things that truly make a difference along the road.

[modern ore]

nice

[steel kindle]

Yeah so far it seems like a good program

[smoky quest]

Which country is that?

I have seen the distinction between technician and engineer, the partition across bsc/ms, but never this.
This seems like a longer bootcamp?

[brazen island]

Belgium. Personally I don't think it's a bad idea. Having devs of varying proficiency is fine especially since demand >>>> supply. I'd say where it differs from bootcamps is that it's an accredited degree where you have exams etc. that matter, bootcamps always felt like a cash grab to me.

[smoky quest]

ah interesting. What's the local name for these?

But yeah, in the USA there is no such structure. Pretty much everyone is an engineer and thus the quality is very broad. But on the bright side, it means the sky is the limit for someone who can handle it

[brazen island]

Yeah to me that's what was always very puzzling for me about US ed. Loads of people with the same degree on paper but extremely high variance.

Lowest tier is a "graduate" (like an associates) and is 2 years. Then you have a professional bachelors with is 3 (no math). You can do an academic bachelors but then a masters is pretty much mandatory. Within those you can do a MS in engineering tech majoring in something CS-esque (4 years total). Final option is a BS in engineering science, and you basically need to pick a major in the 2nd year (CS), after which you go for an MS in CS (5 years total). These are the only ones that can call themselves engineer by law afaik.

Maybe a hot take but I like this. I don't believe every programmer needs to know math but I know this is mega controversial. (sorry for going off topic!)

[fringe sphinx]

"I don't believe every programmer needs to know math": On one hand, I agree: I think most programmers rarely need to use anything more than basic algebra skills. Calculus was largely a waste of time (and certainly didn't need 4 semesters of calc... calc 1 sure, but 2? 3? 4?)

On the other hand, I think there's a beneficial part (for SWEs) of learning higher order math that is hard to teach any other way. The theoretical / abstract concepts that I suppose is hard to attain through practice alone. I think stats, discrete, linear all helped me become a more mature thinker.

But calc (after calc 1 ) can go DIAF 🙂

[brazen island]

Some people spend an entire career churning out CRUD, they leave the office at 5 pm. sharp, go home and have a fantastic time with their friends, partner, kids or even video games. They're an important part of the SWE food chain imo. They don't need math.

[smoky quest]

Ah the bachelor pro. Forgot about that one.
People I know who did it have not ended up very well.

Maybe a hot take but I like this. I don't believe every programmer needs to know math but I know this is mega controversial. (sorry for going off topic!)

I believe it becomes controversial as soon as it gets put in the sense that people who do not know the math could have the same career trajectory.
Otherwise, it's just a matter of trade off, the same way not everyone would need a degree.

[split citrus]

Hey guys, just a general question. I just finished interning and my job position was called Engineering Intern. I did a bit of coding during this so would it be ok to change it to Softwaare Engineering Intern or just keep it as is?

[brazen island]

I know folks that did it that turned out fantastic 🤷 .

Here at least I think the idea is that smarter people pick CS propper and not something else. That may be why the degree itself is seen as more valuable, maybe they just started with smarter people.

But your last point is good, it's a matter of trade-offs. I think you can make it with whichever but the probability you'll make it without a masters (here) is simply lower. Why risk the employer bias if you have what it takes to finish a MS/CS or any other one. Sample applies for say the US variant which is "do I need a degree."

[smoky quest]

yeah, the opportunities are very different for someone with bsc and a ms, even within the first year.

[fringe sphinx]

We had a lengthy discussion about this a few weeks ago. I think the opinions were: Some folks are in the "Use the exact title, but maybe add a clarifier... like; Engineering Intern - Software". Others said: "Use a different title if the original title was misleading or incomplete". Others said: "Don't change it, let the body speak for itself".

[fringe sphinx]

I'm in the first group... something like; "Engineering Intern - Software" makes sense.

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't worry too much. As long as the description of the internship calls out the cool stuff you did, people will get it. Titles are wild

[split citrus]

Ok awesome! I just want to make sure if it was okay because I wasn't sure if it was considered lying haha

[smoky quest]

I also observed a difference in valuation of education.
It's a lot more transactional in the USA

[delicate bane]

this tiered system is interesting

[brazen island]

Middle and high school are tiered like this too but this is truly off topic 🤣

[brazen island]

What do you mean with "transactional"?

[stone oracle]

Hi am a Python developer specializing in web scraping. where I can get clients who need web scraping? I tried on freelancing market place but there is too much competition and also too many restrictions.

[gritty rivet]

That's the state of the game, what do you expect? If you want real money you need real skills and a network of clients.

Most normal mortals need regular jobs to make a living, especially if you're in a higher wage country and can't live on $5/hour

[smoky quest]

it's more about "getting a job" than caring about the learning

[smoky quest]

You can look at it as a market with supply and demand.
Web scraping is relatively easy and accessible. That means there are a lot of people offering these services from areas with low cost of living.

In terms of career, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[brave coral]

oes anyone have any suggestions on a career path for me. I am a cs student and i want to start developing skills but i dont know where to start. Ive bee thinking of learning DSA but i dont know what language is best for me i have been learning Full Stack web development but i simply cant seem to understand which skill should i aquire. AI , DS , ML or software which skill will be the most beneficial for me within the next 5 years. My goal is to land a job with a good package within the next two years. What Should I do? Where do I start? What Skill should i go for?

[smoky quest]

The best thing to do is for you to try!
Try and see which one you enjoy the most, which one you hate, discover new fields along the way

Look also at the industries around you for which type of jobs are the most available around you

[true harness]

a lot of my classmates have the sentiment: "I just need a degree, then I can do what I want"

[fringe sphinx]

As my nephew says: "b's get degrees"

[true harness]

C minuses get degrees too

[brave coral]

I have tried Web Development but do you guys think that being a software engineer would be a good career in the next 5 years?

[brazen island]

I have sympathy for this because it took a while before I gained intrinsic motivation as well. First part of uni you're just there because your parents told you to.

[peak halo]

yes

[brave coral]

what about DS, AI ?

[smoky quest]

that's a sad state of affairs

[smoky quest]

also great jobs!

[brave coral]

They say its the technologies of the future but what would best for me?

[peak halo]

that one is a lot harder to say. DS/AI was getting hyped up for years, and had ChatGPT and image generation AIs not happened, it's possible that the public would have lost hope that AI would ever deliver.

[smoky quest]

how do you define best?
What is best for you is very different from what is best for me

[brave coral]

Best for me would be a job that pays well.

[smoky quest]

they all pay well.
And I would caution optimizing just for money. You may have a miserable time and thus career doing things you don't enjoy

[brave coral]

Again true but ive been listening to ted talks and stuffs they say that ai might take jobs away from people.

for example if i choose Web Development as a career

[smoky quest]

am gonna let someone else handle the "ai steal our jobs" discussion

[spark cobalt]

So I got a new contractor and I'm her mentor and bringing her up to pace yada yada. Something I found is that she likes to talk a lot to almost compensate for something (haven't figured it out.) The entire team has kinda felt this from our last syncup when she started going really deep on technicalities with our PM (like talking to our PM as if he develops the system and knows the code) which he was kinda just nodding along and indifferent about.

My question is, how can I maybe steer her to stop talking so much (I really honestly don't know how to say it better, but she talks way too much. Which starts to extend to how she discusses problems with me where she will go on huge tangents and talk about 39 other things which don't have anything to do with her task yada yada)

[brave coral]

Can ai in the next 5 years would take that job away from me?

[spark cobalt]

Someone make huge AI post and someone pin it

[peak halo]

there's a lot more to web development than just writing code, so even if we get to a point where ChatGPT is infallible, it still won't be able to fully replace the occupation of web development.

[brave coral]

no disscussions just need an opinion

[spark cobalt]

I nominate recursive

[smoky quest]

I would suggest to take an escalating approach.
You can start by gently nudging her back on track (ex: "how does this relate to X?") and if this doesn't work, to be a bit more explicit.

If you are her mentor, you may also want to set up a 30-60-90 days where you can have check in points to give her feedback.

[smoky quest]

tl;dr: it's not something I would worry about.
Grow with the new tools available to you, don't be afraid of them

[brave coral]

Should i Start learning DSA in python and then transition towards DS or AI? Or should I Go for C++ or Java instead and become a software engineer? Which has more promising future?

[spark cobalt]

Particularly in web development, there's so many things constantly changing that AI won't really be able to keep up. (Browser changes, language changes, framework changes, etc.)

[brave coral]

As in web and application development?

[smoky quest]

DSA is the foundation of CS.
So you should already see that at school. Aren't you?

[brave coral]

I am in C++ but i need to be very good at it but in college it is not getting me anywhere

[fringe sphinx]

Only way to get good at anything is practice. College just introduces you to things. Many college grads are, unfortunately, terrible coders

[smoky quest]

can you expand on that?

[brave coral]

This sem we were going to introduced with DSA but there wasnt any faculty assigned for the same half the sem is gone

You wouldnt believe that my course has a specialization in Data Science in collaboration with IBM but what they have just started teaching us the subjects now.

Which arent getting us anywhere

[spark cobalt]

Sounds good. Thanks :3

[smoky quest]

ah that's unfortunate.
In terms of materials, I would suggest the book "Introduction to algorithms". It's a great book to go through, especially if you do some of the exercises

[smoky quest]

fyi, the best approach in these situations is to come from a place of care and helping. Not of a place of "stfu"

[brave coral]

Any suggestions in what Language?

[spark cobalt]

I think additionally just in general she has tendencies to move from one thing to another really fast without really solidifying each thing before going to the next. And it's pretty hard to work with.

[spark cobalt]

[smoky quest]

python

[smoky quest]

And have plenty of empathy. Remember that it's all new to her, she may feel nervous, etc.

Also that's something typical 1 years of xp engineers don't deal with. You may want to loop in your lead/manager

[brave coral]

okay

[spark cobalt]

Good idea. I'll talk to my PM about this.

Thank you recursive

[brazen island]

Loads of devs are like this especially if they've not been told it's a problem I think. Talking a lot might be their personality, and that's okay imo. Rambling about technical details to a PM is bad though.

[spark cobalt]

I think her mind is like wired on a speed way too fast for me.

[spark cobalt]

After having like almost 50 minutes of calling her, definitely feels like some part of this comes from her previous workplace. Our workplace is significantly more casual than how she's approaching us and whatnot.

The call was draining. She spent a lot of the time describing the problem without really showing what the problem is and how she's gonna fix it.

Gave me the same rambling to our PM yesterday and I had to subvert and say like "I trust you, you don't have to explain every detail to me." and then we moved on.

Hopefully it'll stick. She's really hardworking and seems like good intentions, but maybe her previous workplace had some work-political issues or something. At least that's the vibes I'm getting...

[brazen island]

Might not be that deep. People don't know it's bad. I've seen this in many presentations. One time they brought in the PM and end users to explain Rabbit MQ.

Just tell her to stop doing specifically that but assure her that you like the fact she communicates.

[spark cobalt]

Mmmm good idea. And yeah it might just be first few week jitters and after a few weeks when she gets accustomed to how we operate, she'll probably assimilate.

[spark cobalt]

I do find this fundamentally to be a problem.

[vapid jay]

Who is "we" in "how we operate" again, please? Sorry..

[spark cobalt]

My team.

[brazen island]

I know people that do this but I timebox them or tell them we can't talk about it in detail.

[vapid jay]

How does one get promoted in a Software Engineering job?

[spark cobalt]

I haven't been in enough places to really say, I just feel like as an engineer, it's pure bullshitting.

They may not intend to do it, but it's a lot of words with little meaning.

[spark cobalt]

How do you timebox them? Is it something like "can you take 5 minutes to describe what you're seeing?" kinda thing?

[spark cobalt]

Different for every company.

[vapid jay]

Also.. do they resent being "timeboxed" like that?

[spark cobalt]

I do not find it useful for either party to talk infinitely without getting any action done. Everything is timeboxed.

[brazen island]

One of the usual suspects that does this at my job ... honestly, he has an illness that means he can't leave the home. He likes talking and talking over a call because I suspect he has no other social contact. What I tend to do is ensure the call is very short and remind him I have no more time than the allotted slot.

I do this because I have given up on telling him to shorten him talk. With others, I politely, give them a nudge to keep focued.

[spark cobalt]

Of course, I do wanna do it in the nicest way possible.

[spark cobalt]

THATS SO SMART. Most of my calls are impromptu Slack calls or something and that might be the problem.

[vapid jay]

How do you deal with: you timeboxed 5 minutes and got a mediocre thought/solution out of those 5 minutes. Proceed with the mediocre solution or further "timebox"?

[spark cobalt]

I do not go into meetings with mediocre thoughts. That's not what meetings are for. I come with as-established-as-i-can thoughts ready to take criticism.

Meetings are not the time for you to make ideas. They're the time to present them.

[brazen island]

if it's getting super technical for no reason whatsoever, I simply say something like "wow wow, sorry I didn't come prepared for that right now. I'm not in the right headspace to discuss X because I came for Y, we can talk about this some other time, preferably in person."

[spark cobalt]

I think in this past year, I've only been in one meeting where everyone was trying to brainstorm solutions and the only reason we had that meeting was because only like one person spent the time to explore solutions outside of the meeting

Maybe even no one. Was Q2 this year and no one had time to do anything

[vapid jay]

Why so short on time?

[spark cobalt]

Everyone's busy

[vapid jay]

Present.. by voice?

[smoky quest]

it's also a common problem with juniors.

They just give you a raw dump of everything without thinking about their audience

[spark cobalt]

She apparently has 10 YOE, which is why I'm surprised about that specific thing.

[spark cobalt]

Typically yes.

[vapid jay]

So you are saying that she should know better.. is that it?

[smoky quest]

Some people never had that opportunity to improve. Either way, it's a growth opportunity for her

[brazen island]

How long has she been there? If it's been like over a few days and you haven't addressed it, it might be sus on your part. I always debrief things I perceive to be BS.

[spark cobalt]

Nope. It just wasn't what I expected and I'm surprised.

[spark cobalt]

2nd week. Debrief in what sense? Like directly to her? To a higher up?

[vapid jay]

When you say "apparently".. do you mean you don't believe she has that much experience? Or that she should not act that way if she has that experience?

[smoky quest]

fyi, this can also be a sign she doesn't know what matters or does not matter (it could be from no fault of her own). And some of the side effect is she may not think about it end to end and just focus on her literal task.
Something to look out for

[spark cobalt]

It's not about should or should not. Someone with 10 YOE would generally be considered in mid-level to senior level, and for them to make as recursive describes a more junior mistake is surprising.

[brazen island]

To her, directly. My priority is to not upset people but I'd just tell her "sorry but I don't think X, Y and Z are appropriate because ..."

[smoky quest]

10 yoe is way past mid level

[spark cobalt]

Hmmm good points.

Definitely need to sit down to iron out these things. Thank you guys for the inputs

[vapid jay]

So you are saying that you, knowing how one should behave with that much experience, are surprised that they do not act in the way you think they should, given their experience and what you imagine they should act like. I see. So basically you are saying that they should know better..

[spark cobalt]

I think this is one thing I could've improved with my intern this past summer. I assumed some things that should've just been communicated ASAP.

[brazen island]

Never assume. People that make assumptions are the hardest to work with (for me)

[spark cobalt]

Which I'd argue that they should. But people generally don't try to bullshit on purpose.

[spark cobalt]

[smoky quest]

that's how you end up with check lists and process :kek:

[brazen island]

All the most mind boggling work situations I've been in where because people didn't say something and expected me or others to read between invisible lines.

[fringe sphinx]

Work would be so much easier without all the people.

[vapid jay]

I understand. You are saying: I know better than them having less experience. Do you think you are generally precocious in getting ideas or concepts earlier than colleagues and do you think you have found a way to use that to your advantage in building your career, which is the topic of this channel?

[lapis wind]

In what world has Wilder even remotely said that? LOL

[smoky quest]

It may help to refer to career ladders and frameworks such as https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/ic4_software_engineer.html

There are entries such as:

I communicate with clarity, brevity, focus, and tailor my message to my audience presenting it at the right altitude

While everyone is different in details, there are some common expectations to reach certain levels

[spark cobalt]

WFH yay

[vapid jay]

This is funny:

I communicate with clarity, brevity, focus, and tailor my message to my audience presenting it at the right altitude
because to "tailor" the message to the audience means to have an audience of a well-known "1" and any number beyond "1" distances the outcome from "tailored". 3 is already probably unfeasible, unless we are dealing with clones with memory copy. 4+ is just outlandishly difficult

[spark cobalt]

Maybe I think I need to provide an example. My old intern would consistently say that they're making great progress on their tasks and I assumed that he was. And the contractor is kind of hinting towards the same line which I want to ensure she is able to complete tasks and I'm able to help fill her in in anything she's unsure about etc.

[smoky quest]

audience is commonly interpreted as including an audience of one person all the way to infinity.
The goal is to convey that interacting with the CFO would be quite different from interacting with your PM

And you are correct that the composition of the audience matters! Speaking to 20 engineers is different from speaking with 10 CIO + 10 engineers

[spark cobalt]

I assumed the best, when I should've taken action to know rather than leave to assumption.

[brazen island]

If you don't know your exact audience always keep whatever you're saying sufficiently high level but show points where they can interrupt or ask you to go deeper.

Unless they're on your codebase, nobody cares about the details. Never. If they do, they'll ask.

[spark cobalt]

An example: My team is 5 people rn + a PM. Any conversation with a PM revolves around the state of the product, the next steps, the vision, etc. Any conversation without is mostly technical, implementation details, design discussions, etc.

[spark cobalt]

It's just minimizing wasted time.

[fringe sphinx]

Not sure what they were getting at. Tailoring a conversation for an audience, is a perfectly normal and important thing. Read the room.

[smoky quest]

It's also interesting to compare with the expectations of other levels:
IC3:

I tailor my message to my audience, presenting it clearly and concisely at the right altitude

IC2:

I write and speak with clarity and focus

IC1:

I write and speak with clarity and focus

Levels above go more into influencing and getting buy in

[fringe sphinx]

One of my favorite scenes: https://youtu.be/LTDS6SHwA6w?feature=shared

(Relevant to the topic of tailoring your message to the audience)

[brazen island]

I think if you get a job and listen to enough presentations that put you to sleep this becomes second nature 🤣

[smoky quest]

or if you have people starting to report to you in some form

[gritty rivet]

This is one communication style, the one I prefer. But many people will never agree that this is the best or only way to run meetings. As someone said to me once, "I have to talk to think". That's a bit extreme but I think many extroverted people feel that way to at least some degree.

So I think different meetings can have different purposes and some need to have space for more fluid forms of discussion even though I don't personally have a lot of patience for it

[delicate bane]

one of my meetings is on the more rambly side, but its fine bc its just the two of us and we tend to bounce ideas off each other. when its more than 2, i lean towards keeping things on track

[hollow kernel]

why do files need to be in quotation marks, for example file = open("sample.txt")

does it need to be read as a string in order to work

[smoky quest]

Hi!
It's the wrong place for this question. You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[hollow kernel]

oh

oh shoot i didnt realize this was career mb lmao

[smoky quest]

np

[cobalt moat]

Everyone rejected me for summer internship

Because I’m a freshmen

So what am I suppose to do over summer

[smoky quest]

enjoy your last summer of freedom

[cobalt moat]

I don’t want freedom

[smoky quest]

don't worry, your future employers will happily keep you working whole summers non stop for your next 40 years

[cobalt moat]

Why can’t it start now

I don’t want to waste a summer working a minimum wage job like a business major

[smoky quest]

make projects

[cobalt moat]

Projects don’t do anything for me apparently

And they don’t pay bills

[harsh river]

study.

[cobalt moat]

That doesn’t pay bills either

[smoky quest]

it's an investment

[cobalt moat]

I’ve been self studying for 4 years and it’s gotten me absolutely nothing, what’s the point of doing it another summer

[smoky quest]

wait, you are not in school?

[cobalt moat]

I am

[smoky quest]

bro, 4 years ago you were like what, 13?

[cobalt moat]

Lua programming on Roblox

[smoky quest]

the benefits would have been more about helping with your computational thinking skills, not getting you a high paying and high responsibility job by 15

[cobalt moat]

I will be 19 not 15

[smoky quest]

the benefits would have been more about helping with your computational thinking skills, not getting you a high paying and high responsibility job by 19

[cobalt moat]

But I want one

[smoky quest]

Welcome to adulthood \0/

[cobalt moat]

So my only option is McDonald’s

Even though I have qualifications to work in software

[smoky quest]

it's a market with supply and demand

[smoky quest]

can you post your anonymized resume?
I think you already did, but making sure we aren't missing anything

[cobalt moat]

Yeah

[smoky quest]

oh right, the conversation got derailed by another member.

As a reviewer, I would not call you back for the main reason that your resume is all about telling and not showing.
Everything is about how you tell people you know X but you never demonstrate it.
It would go a long way to talk about how you used these skills

[cobalt moat]

I linked my GitHub

[smoky quest]

As the say goes: show don't tell

[cobalt moat]

How do I show

[smoky quest]

Most reviewers won't even click on it. Your resume doesn't make it look like worth the time to check your github

[brazen island]

To me there's also too many skills. Reduce them and keep only the ones relevant to the jobs you're applying for. You can make a few variants, one for frontend, one for backend for instance

[smoky quest]

For context, in 2 weeks on an ad for an internship, I got 3,000 applications and ~4 internal referrals and ~30 referrals from conferences/job fair.
The laws of physics prevent me from checking people's github unless there is a real compelling reason to do so

[cobalt moat]

Ok

[summer roost]

you also have things other than professional experience listed in the "professional experience" section, and things other than formal education listed in the "education" section. That's not a great look

[cobalt moat]

Wow how is anyone suppose to get a job with that much competition

[smoky quest]

give examples of things you did that use these skills

[smoky quest]

There can be only one. Or two in this case since I have 2 spots for that specific ad

[cobalt moat]

Should I just remove them?

[cobalt moat]

In what section

[smoky quest]

projects, experience, etc.

[summer roost]

Or put them in a different section, perhaps. But having them in sections where they don't fit is not a good idea. It makes it look like you're trying to be evasive or misleading

[smoky quest]

I am going to be very blunt for your own sake, but your apprentice engineer section is useless as is.
It's just a list of things you tell me you know.
But you didn't even mention a single project or cool thing you did

[brazen island]

Again idk how the US works but I did several unpaid internships as a student, some were mandatory in my program but for others I cold called (important) companies. Each one made my resume more and more credible and by the time I was in my last 2 years I had cozy high paying part time jobs.

[cobalt moat]

Yeah I can change that, I didn’t know I needed that kind of thing on a resume

[smoky quest]

that's why we are here :p

[smoky quest]

if it helps, try to think about it this way: what if you are trying to find which one of your classmate to work with on a project that will count for half of your grade for your entire year?
Picking the wrong person means you will have to do all the work or sometimes even more to make up for their mistakes.

So what would you look at in their resume to make a more informed decision?

[cobalt moat]

I would go off GPA entirely cause it means they ain’t gonna fail

[smoky quest]

I got half of the applications telling me how they got 4.0GPA and how they know java, python, C# and everything under the sun. Then what?

[cobalt moat]

This is hard, I thought software engineers were in high demand

[smoky quest]

they are in high demand, but there are also a lot of applicants. And the good applicants are rare

All these tiktok videos and people hearing about the high pay and fun job make it an attractive field

Plus who doesn't want to make games?

[cobalt moat]

Me, I want to work on servers and research not games

Well ty for all the insight on the resume I’ll fix it tomorrow

[smoky quest]

feel free to post again your updated version

[vocal gyro]

hey,everyone

I target being an algorithm engineer,but now I am 18 approximately as a new student in a university.I would like to consult anyone I could ask about my career planning.wish everybody could provide a valuable suggestion.

[smoky quest]

Welcome aboard!

[vocal gyro]

thank you!I really appreciate this opportunity to study in the university. This is a dream come true for me.

[pure loom]

hey whats the new pop up feature embed called

like if we press a botton or use command , there will be a pop up window of discord such that we could provide some details to it to accept input

[proven crest]

How’s work going for everyone?

[buoyant seal]

Pondering why today is not weekend and thinking to go to shop and buy ice cream in order to fix the mood

[proven crest]

Oof that bad? How come?

[buoyant seal]

Too long previous work day I guess, finished somewhere at 2am
Reached heavy energy exhaustion due to debugging unexpected infra meltdown

I should regenerate energy more in time and keep some emergency snacks available

[proven crest]

Do you get paid overtime? Is this a common occurrence? I hear of that quite a bit in the US

[buoyant seal]

Technically yes, it was actually paid overtime that kept me busy until late. I was compiling report I promised before for some third party project code audit

Otherwise, I have fully flexible schedule

If I work more, it means I can slack off any time later. They care only about I worked 40 hours per week. When I do it, it is not important

[proven crest]

Ah, that’s pretty decent then, and I guess if it’s paid overtime and isn’t a constant thing that’s ok too!

[white relic]

In the US there are "exempt" and "nonexempt" jobs. Nonexempt jobs are paid by the hour and by federal law have to pay at least 1.5x normal rate for overtime. Exempt jobs are salaried and do not have to pay extra for overtime

Most software engineering and related positions are exempt, but sometimes a company may offer overtime pay anyway. I used to work at a company that did that

[proven crest]

Oof that’s pretty crazy, so even if you’re contacted to work 40hrs you could be forced to work 60 with no additional pay?

[white relic]

It can happen. Note that exempt positions generally pay better than hourly ones overall. It's because we don't unionize.

[proven crest]

Ah I see, so in the US it’s quite common for SE to work pretty harsh hours, hence the high pay. Why don’t they unionise? Has there been any attempts? Is unionising or being part of a union seen as kind of a taboo in the US?

[true harness]

apply more, there's still tons of time

[charred spade]

how to make a resume? Do you just write in a word doc, or use some online resume builders? If you do know of a good free resume builder, pls share :3

[white relic]

That's not exactly what I meant. Rather, we don't unionize because we are usually paid well enough to move pretty freely if an employer is exploitative. (Not always, but as a general rule.) It's a different equation for hourly workers.

I've never worked more than a few hours of unpaid overtime and never for multiple weeks on end. It's not usual among my contacts to do so. (I'm also not a software engineer, even though it's a part of my job.)

Despite what people like to say on the internet, the US labor market is not quite a hellscape. It definitely has some problems, especially for service workers, but knowledge workers often have it pretty good here.

[near ocean]

I've had to sign a "waiver" of sorts saying I'm willing to work more than the limit of 45h a week when asked
It has not happened in the 2 years i've worked

[white relic]

Some industries (game dev) really do sound like hell

[true harness]

pick a template and fill it out. two common ones are Jake's resume and awesomecv

[spark cobalt]

Tech industry moves too rapidly and tech is very startup-culture based which unions just slows it down a lot, also in the US SWEs are already paid really well and get many benefits. There isn't really a need for union, so why make processes more complicated for nothing

[charred spade]

Jake's looks good. Could you recommend a good latex editor for someone who isn't really familiar with latex.. at all? (i know markdown tho :3)

[true harness]

overleaf is good enough

[spark cobalt]

We have no clocking in or clocking out or shifts or anything, my company pays the 40 hr/wk and that's it. Some of the people that clearly work more get compensated heavily through bonuses.

Flexibility allows me to create more time to work and more time to do other things. Harsh hours are very rare, and if there are harsh hours, it is most of the time motivated by myself to try to push something or is something completely reasonable (only happened like twice for me in past year.)

High pay is largely due to high demand, of course some of that high demand includes people that are willing to do crazy hours, but that's not the root of why the demand is so high.

SWE (at least where I'm at rn) is really low stress...

[white relic]

High pay also correlates with things like healthcare and commuting costs, at least compared to Europe.

[spark cobalt]

COL as well

[proven crest]

Is there high demand in the US? From what I heard the developer /swe job market has far more applicants than jobs

[spark cobalt]

In new grad/junior level, that seems to be the case. But beyond junior level, not so much.

[proven crest]

Wouldn’t that feed up in the next few years?

[spark cobalt]

Maybe, but I'd think it would be just limited to the junior level.

[white relic]

Maybe. There are other factors. Like I work in a state not known for tech (FL) and it can be hard just getting people to apply because everybody wants to live in California for some bizarre reason 🙄

[spark cobalt]

Juniors just pose to be a bigger risk since interest rate/inflation/etc.

At least within my company (startup, I forgot phase but like 150-200 people) we have very very few junior level engineers here. We could definitely use more bodies but I suspect just the risk alone makes our higher ups hesitate

[spark cobalt]

Hey I was born here! Not by choice!

[near ocean]

Educate the local aligator community in tech

[fringe sphinx]

Agree with wilder; it’s a tough market for entry level… and this is largely a result of recession fears and mass layoffs earlier this year in big tech. I assume we’ll be back to normal next year.

[fringe sphinx]

FL does have quite the reputation 🙂

[proven crest]

Thats good to know as I'll be moving to the US around the beginning on Q2 next year. One of my big fears is finding a job over there as I constantly hear bad things about the market

[fringe sphinx]

Oh that’s pretty soon! What state?

[proven crest]

NYC

[fringe sphinx]

Fun, that’ll be quite the experience!

[pliant bobcat]

Hello friends . If someone published a machine learning paper in IEEE and got masters on data science but without any work experience . Would he be able to land entry position level as a data analysis/scientist?

[proven crest]

It will be I hope!

[proven crest]

If the person has the other requirements in the job listing (they may ask for python, databricks, spark, sql etc) then yes, I dont see why not
*And of course social/interview skills and competency

[pliant bobcat]

Oh that's really amazing!! . Proof of knowledge by implementing these tools/languages on projects rather than work experience is enough correct?

[white relic]

I expect so, why not

[proven crest]

I'm not a recruiter, but from my experience within my company, yes it should be for a junior role.

[white relic]

Projects are often how one gets one's foot in the door

[pliant bobcat]

I currently don't have work experience because I am focusing on my masters on data science preparation haha . I was afraid that this would affect me

[pliant bobcat]

That would certainly be amazing

[white relic]

It's pretty normal for students to not have work experience

[pliant bobcat]

Yes that is indeed correct

[white relic]

internships are also good

[proven crest]

If you finish and find yourself struggling, you could look for an internship to gain work experience, but with a masters and projects to show competency I'd expect the only barrier you may face is less experience in particular environments such as databricks, but not all jobs will ask for that.

[pliant bobcat]

I am a fresh bachelor grad after 3 months gap and will apply for masters . I spent this gap building my ML knowledge and on the near future will apply to masters of data science. Will that leave a negative impression on me because of that gap?

[proven crest]

Or SQL, Python, Power BI etc, but just apply for what you fit into and you should be fine

[proven crest]

Absolutely not. People often take a year or longer between Bsc and MA.

[pliant bobcat]

That's amazing . My portfolio of projects seem fine and there is a large possibility I will be joining masters of data science very soon

[pliant bobcat]

Oh thank you very much . I was really worried about that

[pliant bobcat]

Oh that's cooool . Currently working on the data analytics program on Coursera . They will cover a lot of SQL

[proven crest]

I'd assume you got some exp through projects and your BS and will gain more in your Masters and projects too, dont sweat it. Good that youre doing that though!

[pliant bobcat]

Yep I indeed got some experience working on em . Thanks very much pyrex you made me less worried

@proven crest @white relic I really appreciate the help thank you guys 🙏

[white relic]

A year is kind of long IMO. Over a year would raise questions. Three months is nothing

[proven crest]

Really? From my experience most people take time after their BS to do other things, travel, internship, work exp etc before doing a masters. It seems pretty normal to not do it directly after a BS

[white relic]

If you're doing an internship or working, it's not a gap

Taking a year off to backpack around Europe, or whatever, sure, but a lot of people don't have the money for that so I don't know if I call it common

Here it's common to take a year off between high school and college. Maybe that's a difference

[daring basin]

give up

[fringe sphinx]

I'd advise reading this... it's pretty spot-on imo: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-software-engineers/

[fringe sphinx]

That's neither helpful nor kind.

[fringe sphinx]

Agreeing with everyone else... 3 months isn't even a gap I'd notice. 3 years, yes.

[daring basin]

blud huffed and puffed

[crisp oriole]

Billy help me pls. I am a sophomore in highschool and Ive been trying to find a job that’s with coding. I don’t know where to start

[fringe sphinx]

Kinda hard to find work while in high school. Any job will look good on your resume (eventually) though. Even stocking shelves at best buy.

[crisp oriole]

I even tried chatGPT

[fringe sphinx]

Is it just about money, or just trying to build experience?

[crisp oriole]

50/50

[fringe sphinx]

There's lots of ways to build experience, but often non-paying.

What country?

[crisp oriole]

I’m currently trying to make a game

[crisp oriole]

Nashville

[fringe sphinx]

I don't really know the fiverr/upwork. Some folks do small projects there, I hear, but probably hard to get a steady flow of $$

[crisp oriole]

-:(

[fringe sphinx]

If you can, maybe look for a job at a local electronics store, even a repair place. Get some hardware knowledge.

If you're good at webdev, can also offer small projects to people in your network. A lot of this is finding someone who has a problem, and is willing to pay a little $$ to solve it.

[dense remnant]

Do you think Machine Learning jobs will be saturated?

In my opinion no, there are just many people who are not trained and believe that with courses they are capable of having a job lol

But, there is a lot of competition, especially with very intelligent people since it is a job that requires a master's degree or phd

[dense remnant]

That's normal

I know people at ETH Zurich who, after six years working, did a master's degree in Data Sciences

Just focus on doing research

[modern ore]

not compared to web dev 🤔

[dense remnant]

You are too young to worry about that, try to go to a good university (UC Berkeley, Chicago, NYU, CMU, etc) ~ TOP 50 and while you are studying do projects, contribute to OpenSource projects

[modern ore]

In my opinion if Machine Learning becomes very abstracted, maybe 🤔 But most people in general are unwilling to do phd and masters so def not

[brazen island]

Am I the only one that feels this way: at work we tend to bend for people that are late with tasks, unorganised, ... but never the other way around. Maybe that's the culture at my place but it's terrible that you need to pace yourself by at the rate of those folks and not the other way around.

For context, I'm working with 2 people that have way more "seniority" than I have, but I still need to ask "When are tasks A, B and C done" or "Are you guys showing up to the meeting." etc. I'm more than willing to steer the ship but it's a trade-off between getting the work done and coming across like an ass, which is also counterproductive.

[digital fjord]

In europe, people will do the equivalent of a masters, but PHDs are reserved for the truly "insane" - There is a fairly hard limit on how many people end up liking research enough to actually do a PHD, and fewer yet will decide to then take ML jobs.

[crisp oriole]

Well I am very good with computers and I know how to fix them

[true harness]

what do you mean by "the other way around"? you don't need to bend for people that perform as expected

[brazen island]

Yes, I think in practice the pace at work is set by the slowest and not the average or the fastest

[crisp oriole]

I understand that but I wanna like FIGURE out what I’m doing with coding stuff

[dense remnant]

Fr

PhD is not for money

[brazen island]

I live in Europe as well, the net salary of PhDs are higher than industry, but industry has more perks.

[dense remnant]

You also have to think that in the 5 years that the average person worked, they got more money and more real experience than the guy who was studying for a PhD

[dense remnant]

OpenSource it's the answer

[brazen island]

I think the issue with PhD students is that for some it's escapism and no interest in knowing how stuff works in the real world which means they'll start you as a Jr. when you start a job afterwards.

Now, if you actually used the right tools (and not just Matlab...), went to meet-ups with professionals, kept an eye out on industry trends etc. I think you're a very very qualified person for most positions.

[little crypt]

Hello, I am a freshmen in hs currently and I was just wondering how should I start getting into coding? I mainly understand to find courses and videos that teach it, but what coding language should I begin with and what platforms can I use to test my coding to get a better understanding of it? What majors would contribute to my knowledge of coding in order to secure a future job in computer programming?

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe a better question in #python-discussion , there’s lots of ppl in your shoes there. Generally; advice would be to learn Python first, learn a bit more about general computing, and then think about this question Junior year once you have a little experience and knowledge about what you like.

[little crypt]

Ok thanks

[solid bison]

I am a CS major in my last year of studies: How do I grapple with the fact that I dont enjoy coding algorithm problems like leetcode and more theoretical problems but really enjoy hacking on projects / side projects?

[timber hamlet]

Idk if this is true. But did covid lower the demand for programmers? Especially since ppl locked in started learning more perhaps?

[harsh river]

no. there wasn't enough time for those people to become proficient enough for that.

[sour tartan]

Real work isn't like leetcode anyway. You'll be fine.

[true harness]

it might be a good idea to figure out specifically why you dislike them

[solid bison]

because I feel like im not making anything tangible people can use

i really dislike theory also

[sour tartan]

Real work will be very different

[solid bison]

Ok great

[pseudo plinth]

I'm looking for partner/coding friend as someone as both a learning buddy and project collaborator. The goal is to work on a Python project that can help us improve our skills in python and give us some real life experience on building apps and serve as a strong addition to our resumes for future job applications

I'm at still newbie and am particularly interested in any good idea, maybe 2d game or small app such as workout tracker. I believe that teaming up can provide us with a unique learning experience and a way to stay motivated.
note: this is just for learning, not money or whatever, just personal projects to learn
Would anyone be interested in this collaborative learning journey? Please feel free to reach out so we can discuss further (NOTE: PLEASE STOP WASTING MY TIME, OVER 15 PEOPLE I INVITE, THEY GO GHOST AFTER DAY OR TWO, IF UR NOT SERIOUS DONT TALK TO ME 🙂 Ted talk )

[solid bison]

bruh

[white relic]

You don't have to enjoy it, but you should be able to do it well enough in an interview context

[sour tartan]

It's hard to find collaborators. This wall of text might scare people off. I recommend hanging out and making connections with people first.

[pseudo plinth]

thank you for the advice

[solid bison]

makes sense, thank you.

[timber hamlet]

Gotcha. Thx

[spark cobalt]

We're in a state where we're trying to go back with all the overhiring done during COVID.

[modern ore]

I currently have a RO for full time, what are the chances HM or recruiters willin to move me back to intern pool 😹

i guess its company dependant

[fringe sphinx]

Not covid. It was recession fears at the end of 2022 and mass layoffs early this year that screwed up the hiring market. Give it time.

[smoky quest]

money also became more expensive and the focus became less about growth and more about healthy metrics

[fringe sphinx]

I also assume a bit of house cleaning too. These companies had massively overhired.

[smoky quest]

yeah and they also had some headwinds that went away post covid

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, thats a good point, hadn't considered that part too.

[modern ore]

?

[white relic]

you mean, you want to intern again while you continue your education? 🤔

did you fail a class or something?

[modern ore]

Yea

[modern ore]

nah, i wanna do masters or sum sht and/or want better shot at better companies

[fierce pebble]

helo

can anyone help me in fixing macro recorder code please ? i have been facing a lot of glitches lately ;((

[fringe sphinx]

Wrong channel, try #python-discussion , or better yet, open a help thread: #❓｜how-to-get-help

[cobalt moat]

What do y’all think of study abroad over summer between freshmen and sophomore year

[white relic]

no harm asking, some companies would be happy to have you back, some companies don't do that kind of thing

[white relic]

Why only the summer? Most study abroad programs are for an academic year

[cobalt moat]

Because I have nothing else to do for summer and my school only offers 1 semester at a time

[true harness]

it's also not going to pay bills . there's plenty of time to apply for internships still

[cobalt moat]

Actually it might if I can graduate a semester early

[true harness]

you've still got like 6 months to find an internship if you want. a few rejections is normal and expected

[cobalt moat]

I did like 30 already

Which isn’t the point, I was just looking at other options for this summer because I will have better luck finding one as a sophomore

[true harness]

30 is not enough to give up imo, but it is your decision. many students frequently apply to hundreds. especially as a freshman, you should expect to be rejected a lot

[cobalt moat]

I’m not giving up

This just might be more beneficial and reachable for me

[white relic]

as a US person, flying across an ocean to study in another country for at most like 2 months seems a bit silly

[true harness]

for studying abroad, your best bet is probably with programs your school has. my brother studied abroad for a semester in Sweden. i think it was some exchange thing where his school partnered with another school there

[white relic]

if you live in Europe maybe it's a bit different because other countries are so much closer

[cobalt moat]

Just a plane ride

Not that big of a deal

[white relic]

what's the point of going abroad though?

[cobalt moat]

Experience and I hate America

[white relic]

you could take classes over the summer in a nearby university and save a lot of money

[cobalt moat]

Don’t Europe have free college?

[white relic]

the experience of doing a summer in $country is probably going to be more like a longish vacation than like "studying abroad"

and you're not going to be able to take advantage of most of those programs psv mentions

[cobalt moat]

It’s an exchange program though

[true harness]

just for a summer? really?

[cobalt moat]

Got nothing better to do over summer

[white relic]

we're asking about the program

most exchange programs don't exchange students for the summer holidays

[true harness]

the ones I've seen are for a semester or year. my school does 1 year (though it's just at other campuses of the same school so maybe it's special ?)

[cobalt moat]

This one does

So is tuition free in Europe?

[white relic]

depends on the country

[true harness]

well if it's an exchange program you would need to see the terms of the program. ask an advisor or email them or whatever

[manic olive]

Hi guys , im pursuing B.Tech(freshman year) in Electronics and Computer Engineering , and i literally know nothing about programming , how can i start and from where?

[white relic]

(also, don't assume that if tuition is free for people who live there, that it will be free for you)

[true harness]

I believe my brother was paying a bit more than his local classmates. you'd need to ask the program people to be sure

[white relic]

Your course of study must include some programming classes, right?

Not that it wouldn't be a good idea to do self-study as well, just trying to get a sense of the question

[manic olive]

Yes , it does but my college hasnt started yet(will start in 3 weeks)

Since im free right now , i am trying to build up atleast a good base so that i dont lack behind

[white relic]

Well, given the following two facts...

1. your professors and curricula are planning to teach you everything, so you don't need to start out ahead in anything in particular.
2. you cannot really learn anything substantial in three weeks that you won't pick up quickly once you start classes.
   ... it may make sense to study things that aren't in your curriculum.
   If the CS101 class uses Python, you'll be spending the whole semester on it. Maybe it would be better to explore another language you find interesting or explore AI theory or graphics or something according to your interests.

If your studies will use Java, that's a great excuse to learn Python.

Another option: learn to use Linux.

[manic olive]

@white relic I see , that does make sense , my cs101 class would be teaching C language first so can you suggest me what to do in that case? should i wait for the college to start only then?

or explore on more user friendly languages like Python or as u have suggested learning the usage of Linux

btw @white relic thank you so much for such a detailed and precise answer

[coral vine]

gasp. so i had a panel interview last friday for 1hr for swe internship. they said they will send me an email. i got the email an hour ago. they want me to pick a time slot to have a phone call. says "looking forward to checking in with you." at the end so i dont think it will be a rejection. ill have the call tomorrow. but... what do you think the phone call will be about ? o.o after a final interview?

[near ocean]

HR stuff probably?

[coral vine]

what does that consist of? i thought it was going to be either talking about the offer or telling me i got rejected. what information should i prepare for the call? o.o no clue what it is going to be about at all

[near ocean]

I dont really remember what they ask, but it was more like "have you been arrested before", "do you have friends/family working here already" that kind of stuff

[coral vine]

oh i filled out that survey during job app already. what if they ask me for my job reference? it was like 5 yrs ago. o.o i could contact the people of my old job i listed on my resume but that is kind of awkward since it has been so long. but back when i worked there, they were happy and said they dont mind being my reference. but...... 5 years later.... "hey.....remember me? i was so n so from 5 years ago.... can you be my reference for this internship?" Dx

[ancient cargo]

Collaborates Using Visual Studio Code's Live Share 👍 https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/visual-studio-code-live-share/

[vapid jay]

It's decent. I wish there was a voice feature too.

[spark cobalt]

Could be to just go over the details of the internship (time, location, pay etc) before they extend an offer :)

[spark cobalt]

Out of courtesy, you should always be reaching out to your references before you put them in your resume. Otherwise you're quite literally just handing out their phone number without their permission.

[white relic]

If you are to be learning C, but you don't know any Linux, I think that would be a great place to start. I can't recommend a modern book from personal experience but I have heard that "The Linux Command Line" is good.

Python works great on Linux too.

[harsh river]

(works best)*

[coral vine]

oh i just put the company and my job role. i didnt put any references

[white relic]

Not that you can't do C (or Python) on Windows but it's handy to know both and they go together great

[coral vine]

gasp. i will be so happy if it is an internship offer. then i will be done with interviewing for good 😄 it has been the worst thing i have ever had to do in my life !

[fringe sphinx]

There's a nice video/lecture on command line / shell here: see the first 5 lectures: https://missing.csail.mit.edu/

[vapid jay]

@onyx cypress

@umbral pebble

[umbral pebble]

92?

[gritty rivet]

They know better then us, why not ask?

[true harness]

are you doing a double major? you would still list this as one B.S. you're not getting two degrees

[cobalt moat]

yes im a double
i am getting 2 degrees

[steel kindle]

Two degrees or two majors?

[true harness]

hmm. upon research it seems their school does do dual degrees

[cobalt moat]

is there a difference

[steel kindle]

Yes

My school offered dual degrees but it wasn’t as common. Are you getting a BS and a BA?

[true harness]

it says 2 B.S.s on the resume. but i thought you wanted to graduate early ? what's the point of getting two degrees?

[cobalt moat]

BS and BS

[cobalt moat]

the classes overlap

[true harness]

yes, but not all of them