career-advice

[buoyant seal]

@cobalt moat added comments regarding your project too

[true harness]

need decent commit messages also. "fixed bugs" ain't it. i like using https://www.conventionalcommits.org/en/v1.0.0/. https://cbea.ms/git-commit/ is a good resource

[buoyant seal]

and may be giving thought to name functions/variables better 🤔 (Code complete by McConnel describes how to name stuff better). You have hard to read code that would potentially benefit from adding commentaries in all difficult spots (try naming stuff better first).

• Read Code Complete chapter about comments when comments are justified
• Read chapter about variable/functions names from Code Complete for all advices regarding better names

https://github.com/Saratii/Custom-Compiler/blob/main/src/parse.rs#L128 also dead code/commented code could be cleansed.
Or at least commented why it was left present and when to remove. What to do with it. Reason to justify dead code pressence.

[inner wren]

src/parse.rs line 128

// impl From<(&IncompleteU, &Expression)> for CompleteU {```

[vestal rain]

Greetings everyone,

I bring five years of experience as a proficient Python developer, specializing in frameworks such as Django, Flask, FastAPI, and employing tools like Celery to construct robust applications. My portfolio encompasses a diverse array of projects, ranging from ground-up creations of e-commerce platforms and CRMs to architecting intricate microservices using FastAPI.

[true harness]

is there a question associated?

[vestal rain]

yeah, trying to find an opportunity for collaboration. Here is my linkedin profile https://www.linkedin.com/in/mindruion/

[true harness]

do you mean a job ?

[vestal rain]

yes

[weary crag]

Hey, would like to get some feedback on my resume since I am looking to apply for some working student positions soon.
It's not particulary tailored to any position right now, so depening on what Job I apply to I might change a project or so

also i kept the design really close to Jakes template just added a section or so, you think that might be a problem?

[quartz aspen]

Re-negotiation of my contract failed, even though most of that was me correcting that a lot of stuff was literally not defined in the contract.
It's weird getting all the emails about revoked access to some stuff. There's a lot of that.
Time to work on my resume, I guess. Or decide on freelancing or something, idk

[fringe sphinx]

I'm just going to say it: Your comments in this channel have tended to be unconstructive: attacking other members for how they choose to provide feedback, or requesting "proof" for peoples opinions. We all provide our feedback, and if asked, explain our background & credentials, so the OP can evaluate the feedback themselves. If you don't like the feedback, I'd suggest providing constructive feedback yourself.

[dense mesa]

The user has been banned from other servers for trolling/flaming, I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same situation here

[lapis wind]

I wouldn't say they're trolling or flaming. But they have definitely been the most disagreeable person I've seen for a while, if you are going to disagree with everything people do or say, at least provide your own solution to the problem, feedback, etc... Rather than simply disagreeing or arguing while providing no additional useful information.

[cobalt moat]

What did I wake up to

[vapid jay]

• You need a README

Yes, but it's a comment a non-coder could make.

• You need graphics

Sure, but it's a comment a non-coder could make.

• You need tests

Of course! And the code has them, if anybody bothered reading it... To make a comment like that whilst the code has tests seems like a comment a non-coder could make.

• CI/CD

Maybe... but it's a comment a non-coder could make. Again somebody who somehow decides to insist on focusing on anything other than the code, for some reason...

• Documentation

Good point, especially if made by a non-coder.

Maybe this is career advice from non-coders who imagine how a coder would react? I bet some coders would say "ok, let me check out the quality of the CODE they write.."

@cobalt moat maybe the lesson here is to appease the non-coders with the non-code things they need so they don't put you down but I'd also trust that some coders will... focus on the code. I am not much of a "coder" but I do hope that those who know code will give your code a look for its quality as code, not just looking at whether it has anything other than code surrounding it. After all, I think that code is the hard part.. the rest.. less so. A Read Me file. Yeah, you can write the code first and the file later. Maybe if you do offer a Read Me file they'll bikeshed how to write it simply because it's easier to bikeshed about prose than about code.

[true harness]

how does a non-coder know about CI/CD?

[vapid jay]

I personally think they submitted some code for review and they got very superficial critique of it probably because Rust is hard and a sufficient level of Rust know-how is needed to review Rust code. So.. "your Read Me" is not great. Your bike shed would be better painted pink.

[fringe sphinx]

Yup, I'm just saying let's keep our comments directed to OP... thank you for your response.

[near ocean]

this is #career-advice, not code-review
if you want something more in depth use the appropriate channel
people here suggested ways to make a repository more traversible, READMEs, CI/CD, obvious tests not stuffed next to source code are valid suggestions
you're just throwing bait at this point

[cobalt moat]

I need graphics???

[true harness]

rust tests are traditionally placed next to source code, however there do seem to be a lack of proper integration tests. the integration tests seem to be comprised of the *.txt files in the src directory; these should instead have their own tests/ directory, etc

also, there is a DOCS.txt

[vapid jay]

Variable names. Because semantically understanding the code is harder than talking about variable names. Yep.

Dead code commented out. A comment from somebody who might know or not how to code.

[near ocean]

you need a way to show how the entire thing works without someone having to guess from the source code
whether its a recorded gif of the code in operation or code blocks in the readme

[cobalt moat]

I have thousands of lines of text at the end of the parse and tokenize file

[true harness]

from my POV as a rust programmer, i do agree with the things r_e mentioned. why should i care about the quality of the code if i can't deploy it easily? or make sure that it works? or have documentation to consult?

[vapid jay]

Yeah that was great, wasn't it? Here's my code: you need pictures.

[cobalt moat]

There is a docs txt for that

[vapid jay]

There are tests.

[near ocean]

that file isnt rendered by github, just use a markdown doc instead, also why is it in the src dir

[true harness]

i saw. where is the CI to run them?

[buoyant seal]

not sure how non-coders are related to this topic. Github is present from coders for coders 😄
Everyone else will not able to evaluate correctly anything

[cobalt moat]

I can fix fbst

[vapid jay]

That would mean choosing a CI, which is beyond the scope for something you can just test using Rust, right?

[cobalt moat]

Do you guys see the tests though?

[near ocean]

setting a github action is bare minimum imho

[vapid jay]

Read Me file. Variable names. Commented out code. Graphics. Docs. Tests (when there are tests). CI button.

Well... we learn something @cobalt moat .

[true harness]

yeah, see my comment #career-advice message

[vapid jay]

I did. Which is why the comment re: tests really surprised me a lot.

[true harness]

do you know what CI is? you can use CI to run tests when changes to code are made. github has its own CI tools built-in for free

[marsh wind]

hey, if you want more of nonsense I'll give you more - commit messages

[vapid jay]

Please explain what CI is and then tell me if I can take something from one CI to the any other. If not.. choosing a CI is a big choice for something that's just a compiler and already has tests that run using the language tools.

[cobalt moat]

What wrong with my variables?

[vapid jay]

Yes, thank you. Commit messages. Another one. Maybe, I say in jest.. lack of emojis to make it user friendly?

[near ocean]

my guy you can literally copy a GH actions template and have CI setup in seconds

[kind marsh]

I think this conversation has strayed very far from anything related to careers.

[cobalt moat]

True

[buoyant seal]

Tests could be separated at the level of files from working code 😄
Otherwise they get lost a bit @cobalt moat

I suggest moving parse.rs tests into parse_tests.rs
tokenize.rs into tokenize_tests.rs

[true harness]

of course. see https://github.com/Saratii/Custom-Compiler/actions. many CI tools work the same way, just requires learning the specific syntax, which is not difficult. it is not used to write more tests, rather run the ones that already exist (used for things like branch protection)

[vapid jay]

They don't like the names of them. Because it's easier to pick a colour for a bike shed than to plan the nuclear plant. Everybody will vote on the colour of the bike shed.

[cobalt moat]

I’ll fix that

[true harness]

having unit tests with the source code is accepted practice in rust

[ivory sluice]

this isn't constructive nor helpful so please drop it

[near ocean]

i think its time something is done with this trolling, just cause theyre polite doesnt make the content of their posts any less annoying

[vapid jay]

A non-portable choice of some vendor-specific CI tooling which is a lock in? I applaud the use of standard tools in Rust Vs this very questionable advice, actually...

[buoyant seal]

not every standard is great. 🤷‍♂️
I think it is great having tests along side of the file it is present

tokenize.rs
tokenize_tests.rs
keeps tests really close to the relevant code while not mixing tests with working code

Looks more maintanable strategy to me, while benefiting from having code closely located.

[cobalt moat]

I gotta get to class ty for the critiques

[vapid jay]

File naming. Right. Agree.

[true harness]

to be a bit more concrete with what i mean wrt my commit message critique: the commit messages do not tell me anything about what was changed in the commit. most of them are barely coherent sentences. proper commit messages are important not only for readers of the code, but also developers as well

[vapid jay]

The lesson for me is: when I'll be able to code I will ensure I'll talk about code rather than everything but code. As it sure makes it sound like the reason not to speak about code is...

[true harness]

libtest wouldn't know how to handle them, i think

[marsh wind]

Well I am dead serious actually. As a potential employer, if I was evaluating a person as a team member (team being the key) I would look, among other things, at what kind of commit the person makes. Do they contain lots of code? Are commit messages short, concise and to the point? Because, I don't want to see this kind of commit messages in my team repo:

• ee
• temp
• f
• almost done
• pushing before i mess everything up
  ...

[true harness]

it is vendor specific, but so are a lot of things. do you avoid cloud providers because you might write vendor specific code? probably not

[cobalt moat]

Yeah my commit messages are wild

[marsh wind]

oh, I've not seen you already commented on that

[cobalt moat]

They have improved though, I use to write slurs in them

Didn’t know they actually got read

[true harness]

they show up right on the front page

[cobalt moat]

Can I see an example of a proper one?

[leaden jasper]

We're going to de-escalate this channel a bit. The purpose of this channel is not an in-depth code review, but a place for discussion and advice about careers. This has now veered into someone saying OP should be receiving a full code review -- this is not the place for a full code review. (The current conversation about commit practices as a potential employer will see them is fine)

Also, I'm going to re-iterate that advice here should be constructive and not attacking or rude. This includes advice about other advice.

[marsh wind]

it's not just about messages - the content matters too - ideally you make atomic commits, where you have a short messages straight to the point and it contains small amount of relevant code change, say 10 lines of code modified or so

[true harness]

see #career-advice message. to summarize, title says "what", body says "why"

[cobalt moat]

Ty

[near ocean]

they're trying to get eyes on their projects
if you think a little bit of tidying up, simple CI, docs is unimportant I dont think you'll make it out into the world
how would you try and sell a house if it looks like shit from the outside

[cobalt moat]

Y’all are suppose to de escalate, that means stop conversation

[ivory sluice]

half of that content was unnecessary so cut it out

Sarati i hope you got a fair bit of actionable feedback that helps

[vapid jay]

So, for some career advice from me @cobalt moat : keep focusing on the code as when the layoffs come around.. first go those who don't do the code but write the Read Me, then the file naming zealots, then the "add some graphics" people... and last go those who actually wrote the code the company runs on. I bet.

This is my career advice. Beware of becoming like this. Stay close to the core business because - ** even if all projects need a Read Me ** - if I had the choice of running a Read Me file in production or some code... I think I'd pick code.

Close to the core of the profession: coding. I am sure those who code well are afforded some liberties in not writing they Read Me files when they just need to get the product off the ground.

[marsh wind]

https://github.com/RobertCraigie/prisma-client-py/commits/main here you have some pretty good ones. In general, if you go to well established OSS you will find a pretty decent commit history

[near ocean]

@ivory sluice is this not unnecesary, even dangerous advice?
they dont even have any experience to support this opinion, the biggest struggle in the industry is people not writing shit down and here we have someone encouraging others to avoid it

[ivory sluice]

i do think it's poor advice. i see no one has recommended against having good working code

it feels like a non-sequitur
having good working code is a given. i don't expect bad code is saved by having a readme or good commit messages. that doesn't mean having a good readme or commit messages is unimportant

[fringe sphinx]

Climber, this is a good format and good content. Just my quick first reaction: The second experience item is probably more of a project (it's school work, not a job, right?), and perhaps they (both experience items) are both projects, I guess. I don't like some of the phrasing, like "market ready website" and "using typical data processing methods" and use of "various". "frustration tolerance" is soft skills is a little odd. Just put your athletic experience as a hobby if you like. May want to add your goal (internship, presumably)

[digital fjord]

The bar for getting hired, at least from what I was told, is writing good working code with tests, CI, and docs. There is no point in discussing which is more important, you need all of the above to be productive in most jobs.

[fringe sphinx]

** perhaps not a bar, per se, but it's highly desirable. These things are one reason I look for people with open source contributions.

[buoyant seal]

🙈 as a devops engineer, i can tell that if my devs aren't able to write CI, it is forgivable. But nice to see nevertheless.
Not everyone is capable to afford even having devops engineers though, in that case it is more necessary skill 🤔

[ivory sluice]

to add small errors i noticed

• Bachelor of Science (Science should probably be capitalized?)
• stray comma in the stress management bullet
• the years 2020/21, 2021/22, 2022/23 seems excessive. can you just write 2021-2023?

[near ocean]

the effort to reward ratio should make them the bar, it costs nothing and should be developed alongside the code, not as an afterthought

[digital fjord]

Oh, this is also something I wanted to bring up a while back - isn't the whole point of devops (as in the name, developer operations) that all or at least most developers are also responsible for CI/CD and having the code actually running, in place of the traditional separation between who writes the code and runs it? It does not really match what I observe when people talk about devops.

[near ocean]

its the full-stack situation

[weary crag]

thanks a lot

yea i should move the second point in experience to the projects
For the first experience item I am not sure since we earned some money with the startup but nothing significant 😄

I'll work on the phrasing👍

[near ocean]

at my workplace there's a clear separation between dev and ops and its kinda sad to miss out on AWS shenanigans

[weary crag]

will correct that yea

about the point with the dates I am not sure since its been 3 separate competitons over the 3 years

[ivory sluice]

maybe just 2021, 2022, 2023. are these school years?

[marsh wind]

it's often like that, but I see more and more opinions when people say hat DevOps first and foremost is culture and set of practices rather than a dedicated role. I guess that's what @digital fjord is reffering too

[ivory sluice]

or Qualified 3 times for ...

[weary crag]

yea that sounds good

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I don't really have an issue with the first one as a project experience. For what it's worth, saying "software engineer" actually means more to me than "software engineer / co-founder". Co-founder, to me, has a counter-effect... I read it and I often think: "Oh, it's a meaningless project than". That's my bias, curious what others think.

[digital fjord]

At my place, most devs do end up touching the CI in some forms just because of how many different platforms and test configs there - meaning the CI will find bugs your casual test run never will. There are also ops people, but they are more responsible for ensuring there are machines and tooling working and ready, the workflows are generally by the devs themselves.

[true harness]

same, but azure

[near ocean]

judging from job ads, when people say devops they mean resident ops guy that maybe can sort out a bug 10% of the time

kind of like when they say full stack but the job is 80% react

[weary crag]

ah intersting.
Hmm I am just trying to make obvious that it's more than just a quick project and people actually use it and pay for it etc.

[buoyant seal]

that is ideal world situation that is rarely achieved.
in my current company/team we chose a model, where DevOps are platform engineers, that build a bridge solutions allowing devs with minimum effort to communicate with infrastructure/staging/production

DevOps takes care of building infrastructure, providing monitoring,logging, shell debugging, deployment buttons to do actions
Developers use us as a third party service providing services for them regarding applications going live.

In this model less skill requirements for devs 😉 cheaper workforce to find

[vagrant fiber]

#1146813658240913458

[digital fjord]

interesting, that is completely different from what I understood devops to mean, but if its working well, good job.

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe say something like (this isn't perfect... ): "Designed and developed easy-comp.net, in Dart & Flutter, a rock climbing competition planning platform used by over 1000 rock climbers."

[weary crag]

put the other thing to projects and rephrased the first point of both

if i a apply to a mobile dev position I'll just expand on the easycomp section since it's quite a big projects codewise
also it's published in the playstore not sure if thats something worth mentioning when applying to a normal positon

[fringe sphinx]

I like those two bullets a lot better now, there’s a lot of good substance here.

[buoyant seal]

Works for 10 years old startup, with 50-100k $ infra cost per month, 50 devs and 2-4 sized devops engineering team
software is ranging from cloud and web to embedded and mobile devices.
something like 20 maintainable microservices, and dozen of missmanaged legacy deprecating stuff 🤔
real independent software development lifecycle is achieved for microservices
a dozen of databases, having in sum not more than 10 TB of data
Rest APIs and message queues in AWS ECS, with reliance onto AWS managed services are common among backend part
probably not really startup at this point.

[full cedar]

Does anyone here do info sec?

[marsh wind]

lol I was about to comment on "startup" nature of your company

[dense mesa]

Don't ask to ask, just ask

[full cedar]

I didn't have any questions prior to the previous message, I was just interested to know who is in the area

[hearty island]

i have a big interview upcoming, but i don't know what to do

i want a full time opportunity from them, but they're just offering an internship. and it's such a large company that they can't just assure me a fulltime role. i already have a full time role but it's at a much smaller company

so i feel like i'm stuck. the interview is sep 5th

[weary crag]

what do you think about sth like this for the last part?

giving it a new section takes up too much space and doesnt fit on one page

[olive verge]

Hello everyone, I'm Paulo. I'm learning to program and I'm also researching the field of freelance Python programming. Does anyone here work in this freelance programming area? If anyone is willing, I'd like to ask a few questions about this topic.

[deft herald]

Welcome, and go ahead and ask your questions

[olive verge]

Alright, thank u. First question: How much can you earn as a freelance Python programmer?

[fringe sphinx]

I like it. you really don't need the soft skills part, that's something you can talk to, but that looks great.

[sleek egret]

You should keep the climbing stuff, but compress it to one line when/if you need the space. same with Languages

[sleek egret]

I imagine that would depend on the sorts of projects you work on

[weary crag]

yea makes sense

perfect, thanks a lot for your help and suggestions guys

[olive verge]

I would like to initially work on small automation and data analysis tasks. I still have a lot of difficulties with automation, and for data analysis, I feel that I lack knowledge in the subject, but these are the areas of my greatest interest.

[sleek egret]

for data analysis, you mostly need university level statistics and probability knowledge along with a bit of linear/nonlinear modeling

[olive verge]

I'm taking a Python programming course that deals extensively with automation and business analytics, specifically in corporate routines. Do you think that with this background, I could start taking on freelance jobs?

[sleek egret]

depends on your background

[marsh wind]

yeah for your experince, you need to keep it to 1 page

[weary crag]

yea definitely

[sleek egret]

depends on how much experience you have. after 10 or 20 years or so, multiple pages is acceptable

[weary crag]

yea he meant for my experience

[sleek egret]

understood, I was just clarifying/expanding 🙂

[weary crag]

ah i see, yea

[olive verge]

Alright, I don't have that much experience yet hahaha, but moving on to the second question: How do you usually deliver your Python programming services to clients?

[sleek egret]

I don't understand your question

[weary crag]

I think he means if you send them source code or a .exe etc
not sure tho😅

[sleek egret]

when I was doing consulting, I did not view the job as "python programming". I was solving problems/building something for the client. If I used python, it was incidental to the task at hand.

[sleek egret]

So, sometimes I provided the code itself, sometimes I just ran code I wrote on my own systems, sometimes I just wrote a report for them. it varied.

sometimes I would install code on their systems. sometimes security restrictions wouldn't allow that so I would hand off code to their infrastructure team. you do what is necessary.

[sleek egret]

if you have never worked as a programmer before, I would strongly encourage you to get a job at a company as part of team first.

you will learn a huge amount during your first few years about how things are actually done.

[vapid jay]

Second that. Pair programming is great for knowledge transfer

[sleek egret]

I've hired freelancers who have done all the above for me as well simply giving them access to our git repos and they would commit/push into them

sometimes though, they would just run things on their own systems because I would only care about the results

[sleek egret]

make sense?

[sleek egret]

if you have no university degree and no work experience, you will have a very difficult time getting well paid freelancing assignments. most consulting work is obtained through personal contacts. there are sites that act as middlemen for freelancers, but they tend to pay poorly. that said, you can use them to get started and build a reputation.

[vapid jay]

I've been thinking about networking through tech meetups. Any experience with those?

Also every big city usually has a hackerspace to work on projects and socialize

[fringe sphinx]

tech meetups are great, but a terrible place to find customers. It's very hard to convince another programmer that they need you. I prefer selling to non-techies.

[smoky quest]

At this point, you should spend your energy on something else

[vapid jay]

That's fair. I really need some personal projects to pass off as a "cool thing you should check out"

[fringe sphinx]

(there was a long conversation about this this morning, and katj9 and mina cooled things down)

[smoky quest]

Thanks for the context

[sleek egret]

@fringe sphinx speaks the truth wrt hunting for clients at tech meetups

that said, some of them can be fun and interesting

[olive verge]

I was actually thinking of looking for a job as a Junior or trainee programmer to absorb programming knowledge. I thought I could gain experience through smaller jobs, but it seems like that's the way to go.

But okay, third question: What additional skills beyond Python programming are essential to succeed as a freelancer in this field?

[sleek egret]

you can gain experience through small freelance jobs via the middleman sites. just don't expect to be well paid for it.

[sleek egret]

CS theory and domain knowledge

[smoky quest]

programming is just a small aspect to the job though.
There can be quite a bit of things beyond that

[sleek egret]

learning python is just one step. there are many more steps.

[olive verge]

That's great, I'll look into that in my city.

[vapid jay]

They usually have a lot of tools and machines. Definitely

[deft herald]

Check out your local library too. They may have some connections, or even a makerspace of their own

Libraries are awesome

[olive verge]

Indeed, I'll need to delve deeper into some topics like these, study more. Thanks for the information, guys. I'll come back tonight to ask more questions, hahaha. I don't know English, so sorry for the delay, I have to keep translating the conversation, another thing to learn. Thanks a lot, you all rock!

[knotty jasper]

Hey. I'm in the final year of a humanities degree. Recently I've been trying out coding and I've really been enjoying it. I'm learning Python at the moment. I'm going to keep it up for a few more months and if I'm still interested will be looking into it as a career path. With this in mind, my university offers a "masters in computing science" which is marketed towards people with no prior formal education in computer science. I was wondering if it would be possible for one of the more knowledgeable folks here to look at the modules and say if you think it's a masters you can see leading to credible employment in the field. My concern is that given I have no prior formal education that one year of a masters won't suffice. I would really appreciate any advice, thanks!

https://www.uea.ac.uk/course/postgraduate/msc-computing-science#course_modules

[pseudo bone]

Hello everyone, how would you recommend approaching the conversation about a promotion . I feel like i have been holding my own in the team for a few months now.

[dense mesa]

Having a conversion masters should be helpful to be taken seriously as an applicant, but UEA isn't a target for most employers. Apply there but try and get in at other unis that offer conversion CS masters in the UK

[celest kite]

"a few months" 💀💀💀

[knotty jasper]

@dense mesa Alright, I see; thanks. I'd be looking at universities a bit more prestigious/with better CS departments presumably?

[near ocean]

what does holding your own mean? are you going beyond your regular responsibilities?

[dense mesa]

Yes, this website has a very very rough ranking list: https://www.cs-conversion-list.com/

If you're coming into software from a non-cs background (as I did), you want to give yourself the best possible chance.

As much as it sucks, some industries will straight up discount "lower ranked" unis (whatever that means nowadays)

[knotty jasper]

Okay, thank you very much! I'll take a look at these

[fringe sphinx]

While "a few months" might be too early, it's never too early for a conversation with your manager about your career path. It's reasonable to say: "Hey, I've been team lead for a few months, what's the next step or process towards the next milestone (lead, senior, whatever)". That's a good conversation over lunch or a scheduled 1x1.

[near ocean]

I was about to do that myself and then I had a couple terrible sprints with goofs all over the place and boring ass tickets that were blocked
and then i felt like shit trying to ask for "next steps"

[fringe sphinx]

My real advise for career advancement is: 2 up 2 down leadership model (it's a military expression). It's not enough to be good at your job, or even be a great lead... you need to understand your bosses... and your bosses bosses priorities/mission/focus/etc.

[near ocean]

just join another company at a higher level kekmao, its not rocketscience

[fringe sphinx]

the people who rise are the ones who understand/engage/etc their leadership

[radiant yoke]

Im looking to get into a career of development

How long does it take one to get to a skill level where you can start to apply for junior developing jobs etc and what kind of things are required to snag that first job

[true harness]

for many people, it takes 4-6 years

[smoky quest]

• Does your manager know about how you feel?
• Would your manager agree with your assessment of your performance?
• Are you operating above your level and within the expectations of the level above you?

These questions should point at:

• Make sure your manager knows about your expectations. They should be your partner in your growth and help you get there
• Your manager should have some career conversations. At least once or twice a year
• You should make a plan with your manager about how to get to the next level for your promotion

Note there is no shame in talking about what you would need to get to the next level. It's part of your career management

[lost sage]

Hey y'all, I may need some grounding. What sort of production database interactions would you expect from someone with a "data manager" role? (moved over from db chat)

[fringe sphinx]

Prob depends on the org and title and what you mean by ‘interactions’. Can you share more context?

[lost sage]

can't share too much honestly, but - requests to write SQL statements to alter data in a production database that is hooked up to active internal applications

[fringe sphinx]

(It’s not a well defined term… I have an image of what it means from one particular company)

Why would they call that a manager? Sounds like a db programmer.

[lost sage]

they are a low technology company and i am not sure they understood what they were trying to have me do. but maybe i need to learn more?

[smoky quest]

you don't need to share your company's name or any private details.
However database manager is rather vague and could mean a few different things

[lost sage]

yeah, i think it was purposefully vague to help bridge gaps where needed between the department i'm located in and IT

i am not afraid of trying to do that, but i also want to make sure i'm not hurting some poor engineer's careful work

[fringe sphinx]

yah, that's what I think of when you say data manager: like a product manager in charge of a segment of data

So, not a hands-on coding role... but more a business analyst / requirements / liaison type role

[smoky quest]

that's very specific to the application. For instance, it could create some consistency issues if you are modifying the DB directly and the app has a cache layer. A common pattern could be for the app to provide an API and to use that and build tooling around it. But that's a very specific example

[lost sage]

not a coding role, so far scripting with python to make pretty graphs (more analytics than data science) and get data from really random inputs to the database as required

[fringe sphinx]

yah, so sounds like you're just using the db then... what was your original question about then? about production db?

[smoky quest]

If you are asking about if modifying the data in the DB, that's something to discuss with the dev team so they aren't surprised

[lost sage]

yes. i've been asked to "fix things" in it by making changes to it via delete/update statements. which i am nervous about doing. my scripting so far has been hooking up to read-only versions that don't let me actually change the db data

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I certainly wouldn’t ever give update/delete perms to prod to anyone, much less anyone with the word ‘manager’ in their title including myself

[lost sage]

I appreciate the input. I kind of thought so, but I also don't know what I don't know...

[smoky quest]

You may need to loop in someone more senior as to help make that operation safer.
Ex: testing on dev or replicas, making it a migration script you can test, etc.

[lost sage]

Thank you for your help, I've got some people I will fire an email to. I think that the person asking me to do these things is trying to line me up for their role post-retirement, but they haven't explicitly said that. I didn't start this current one all that long ago. It's all kind of strange (but hey, I did expect it to be going in).

[delicate bane]

communication between data and dev teams

[late pewter]

how do i develop a passion for coding

[fringe sphinx]

Really? #career-advice message

[proven crest]

I don’t think you can. It doesn’t work like that. I love the idea of being able to draw, and I love art, but I’m not passionate about drawing. I could probably get pretty good if I spent a few hours every day practicing for the next year or two, but it would be a huge chore

Like @vapid jay said, if you don’t enjoy it, you’re not passionate about it so why force it? If it’s for money, it’ll be pretty hard in the long term if it’s not something you actively enjoy. Programming is more than a 9-5

Sure, like all things. You can be dedicated and focused at something you don’t enjoy, but then you really won’t enjoy life. You won’t do very well in the field either if you’re not developing outside of work or at the very least have an interest outside of work

Question for all, especially those with ML experience. Our team wants to expand work on ML and is starting to intro junior devs into some ML work over q4, I want to start learning as much as I can. Can anyone suggest any resources? Kaggle has been suggested and looks pretty good but wanted to see if anyone else knew any more

[delicate bane]

what type of ML work? i think more MLE/MLOps resources might make more sense, especially if you arent going to be training your own models or even fine-tuning them.

in this case, if the background is regular dev work, id recommend that approach instead.

take a look at https://madewithml.com/

[light sequoia]

you can't develop passion, also learning to code is boring if you get bored in learning don't get disappointment because in doing you will find your passion and thing you like to do

[vapid jay]

You should work on projects that interest you personally and dedicate yourself as deeply as possible to them for a sustained amount of time.

[void cliff]

I have tried to include links to good Python implementations of design patterns in this repo - I will have a look to see whether I can add some more... https://github.com/dancergraham/HeadFirstDesignPatterns_python

[fringe pine]

This isn't an appropriate place to post this, and please don't make the same post across multiple channels. You should make a post in the help forum instead: #1035199133436354600

[vapid jay]

thanks!

[fringe pine]

Hey. You got some fairly good responses the last couple of times you asked. It is getting a bit repetitive now though.

[vapid jay]

Asking questions won't help, the only way is by taking action

[near ocean]

especially when its the same question word for word

[fringe sphinx]

and zero engagement.

[knotty oar]

Hey All, I consider myself as an intermediate developer in python. When any coding question or problem is given to me, I have observed my solutions to those questions is bruteforce. I am unable to think in an algorithmic way. Could anyone suggest how you have improved yourself writing a better code or giving efficient solutions?

[dense mesa]

Cracking the Coding Interview, grinding LeetCode, NeetCode videos on YouTube to help with leetcode

[icy scarab]

Promotions happen in April. What are things i can do to show i’m ready for senior level?

[fringe sphinx]

Studying higher order math is one path to thinking more algorithmically, imo. I often point to the concept of "mathematical maturity", as I think it's more or less the same as algorithmic thinking: https://blogs.ams.org/matheducation/2019/04/15/precise-definitions-of-mathematical-maturity/. It's just not what you know, but how you've practiced it. It's the same thing academics observe as students progress from freshman year to graduation: the shift towards higher order / theoretical concepts. Working on proofs, for instance, I think is an excellent trainer for algorithmic thinking.

[deft herald]

This is a conversation you need to have with your manager. Every company will have their own definitions of each role

[balmy spade]

Go back to the solutions you brute forced and look up different methods of how to solve the underlying problem. Then rewrite your solution on the side.

[deft herald]

Yeah for me I didn't really understand advanced algs until I took a DS&A class (i just took a free one on Coursera)

[fringe sphinx]

The short version is: you need to broaden your sphere of influence/understanding. What does your boss and bosses boss care and think about? Do you contribute to team-wide / product-wide / company-wide discussions? etc. It's about expanding your horizons and learning more about the adjacent problems. This is true at every level of the ladder.

[fringe sphinx]

(and of course, Meltz's point is 100% true... I'm speaking generically)

[deft herald]

Yeah for my case, there are extremely verbose definitions of the "5 core competencies" in our role for each promotional level, but I think it boils down to starting out at the lower levels with 3 main tiers:

• you do what you're told for basically every individual task
• you come up with your own tasks to align with the team's goals
• you tell other people what to do

From then on, it's basically the size of the project you're leading that comes into play

Albeit that's a very simplified description

[fringe sphinx]

I guess the question is always: What can you actively do to get to the next level? vs just waiting for it to happen naturally.

My usual advice is: pay more attention to stuff outside your direct scope.

[deft herald]

Right. Definitely be proactive about this with your manager. You, @icy scarab , need to start the conversation

[buoyant seal]

The short version is: you need to broaden your sphere of influence/understanding. What does your boss and bosses boss care and think about? Do you contribute to team-wide / product-wide / company-wide discussions? etc. It's about expanding your horizons and learning more about the adjacent problems. This is true at every level of the ladder.
agree with this short version
but besides that if you are having chosen mostly technical/invidual dev impact path first, you need still increasing your influence/understanding first too, but you also need just knowing technologies, languages, code architecture at a deep level enough as prerequisite 😉
Manager's path of growing into seniority is not obligatory 😛

[fringe sphinx]

oh, that's a great point.. yah. My advice was colored by my career track. That's what I did (I went engineer -> management track, and then full circle back into a CTO-ish role), but there are lots of diff tracks

[buoyant seal]

Clarify your job role, i can specify potentially expected technologies/languages/software engineering core subjects to know to meet requirements of senior level
if your job role is not too far from software engineering common direction of evolution

[frail cargo]

what is the best job i can get (and where) as under 18

[marsh wind]

Restaurants/fast food, delivery cashiering...

[frail cargo]

as in programming (online)

[marsh wind]

Almost no way it can happen.

[frail cargo]

also in my country fastfoot and casheriing job need to be 18

i just want a little bit of income on the side to get a good pc

[marsh wind]

Your best bet for programming under 18 is through your friends or family if they need something small done and ready to place trust in you cause strangers won't do that

[frail cargo]

good point

[buoyant seal]

online market is heavily oversaturated by billions of people from india and other low cost living countries
if any opportunity will be, it is far easier to find it locally (where u have work permit, knowing native language, local citizenship, and they don't)

[frail cargo]

ikr getting a freelancing job has a lot of compitition

[buoyant seal]

i could imagine the closest IT related job u can get with low entry bar, is probably repairing PCs / printers. system administrator stuff (make cables to connect small network of PCs to nearby router, install OSes)

[frail cargo]

idk sht about hardware lol

so repairing and stuff is not my type

[fringe sphinx]

anything technical is valuable knowledge to a future engineer (of any type) / I agree with the duck. I think the suggestion was just: get a job doing X, not make it your hobby

[frail cargo]

i agree with you but i want to do something online to get in match with my schedule because going somehwhere and doing a job can be difficult and i dont want my parents to help me in this because they alr do a lot of work so online is the most ideal thing for me

job more physical will make me work but my parents will also be stressed about it so ijust dont want that

[deft herald]

going somehwhere and doing a job can be difficult

Most people, even in tech, still have to get out of bed and drive to work every day.

[true harness]

easy if you have a driver's license + car, to be fair

[frail cargo]

i said under 18

[frail cargo]

ik but i am under 18 i cant drive legally

[deft herald]

What country are you in?

[frail cargo]

Pakistan

[deft herald]

gotcha. When I was your age I had a job with my neighbor who was doing remodel jobs on houses. He'd drive me to and from work every day 🤷‍♂️ Sometimes you just gotta take the opportunities that present themselves

[buoyant seal]

one summer i worked in supermarket to sell beer 🍻 😄 just 2-3 months time job

[deft herald]

Yeah, i worked in the deli

[frail cargo]

you are right that you just gotta take the oportunities you get but the neighbour thing i dont think can happen with me cause i am not really in touch with neighbour and the few i know one is a doctor

[deft herald]

Of course. Just an example...

[vapid jay]

hello, i made a phone browser and it has a very good amount of users, how can i make profit out of it without phone ads?

[deft herald]

I guess your only option is to make users pay for it

[frail cargo]

i think if you launch it at playstore you can get profit on it upon downloads not confirmed tho

[frail cargo]

make some paid features like vpn and other extensions for it

[vapid jay]

so there's no solution that's not ads or making people pay

[vapid jay]

huh, no i don't think so

[frail cargo]

you can do sponser and stuff like provide like a vpn or something in your browser which ppl can use and take money from the company that made the vpn

ppl sponser ppl to make their product or app in your browser not adds like a extension

[vapid jay]

nice one

how can i get sponsors though

[frail cargo]

idk about that one

it worked like if i make a vpn i give you money so you can put my vpn in your browser so ppl can use it and it gets popularity

[vapid jay]

that's just what you said earlier but more detailed

[deft herald]

The money's got to come from somewhere. You need to give someone a reason to give you money

[formal maple]

Hello, I'm trying to break into data science, but it's tough even getting a free internship. Does anyone have any advice on getting internships or a junior position? Market seems quite competitive atm

[dense mesa]

It's tough indeed, what's your current background?

[peak halo]

do you have any professional experience? because you probably won't be able to break in without a CS-or-similar degree.

and don't do an unpaid internship--if they're not paying you, it means they don't plan to have you do anything valuable.

[formal maple]

Well I coded in python for about 6 years and about a year doing personal data science projects. Have unfinished degree and no experience

Well 3 months paid programming experience

[peak halo]

I work in this space professionally. my best advice for you is to apply for a CS degree program, or to set your sights on other careers.

[formal maple]

Wouldn't getting a Cs degree only give me a slight advantage? Isn't there something better i can do in 3 years?

[peak halo]

No, getting a CS degree would basically be the bare minimum.

That is to say, anything else you do towards getting a data science-related position would need to be in addition to getting a CS-or-similar degree.

[formal maple]

I will be learning so much irrelevant stuff and still have no work experience by the end of it...

[peak halo]

you would have the opportunity to get paid internships over the summers

[graceful mason]

plenty of CS degrees offer internship opportunities and placement years

[formal maple]

So I'm going to get a degree for a piece of paper. Kinda sad, since I already learned so much data science

[deft herald]

I mean, the piece of paper isn't what you're paying for

[white orbit]

Hey guys, I'm a recent grad looking to pick up some open-source programming work to build my resume and github while I job hunt. Do you guys have any tips as to what I should look out for when selecting a repo to work on, or how I can even go about starting down that path?

Its an incredibly daunting thing to consider working on and tbh I just don't really know where to start

[deft herald]

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[deft herald]

This is a good resource for your own projects

And here's a good article on contributing to OSS for the first time
https://github.blog/2020-01-22-browse-good-first-issues-to-start-contributing-to-open-source/

[white orbit]

Thank you!

[pastel thunder]

honeslty, do people come up with stuff like this during interviews?
https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/design-a-stack-that-supports-getmin-in-o1-time-and-o1-extra-space/

[smoky quest]

that would not be expected in a normal interview

[pastel thunder]

good to hear, thanks.
and this was a medium, maybe after i have seen similar question, it might feel medium

[smoky quest]

in an interview, they would be satisfied with having a stack to store the minimum value rather than expecting you to come up with some clever trick

Because whether or not you know the trick won't demonstrate any knowledge about DSA, it will only demonstrate knowledge of that trick

[normal vale]

For asking that question in the first place, I've put you on a no-hire list Momo

[pastel thunder]

do you mean same question but without O(1)?

[smoky quest]

yeah in constant storage

[solemn walrus]

<@&267628507062992896> can I have my mic activated

[peak halo]

This is the wrong channel for this question--in either case, please read the instructions in #voice-verification

[solemn walrus]

thanks a lot

[true harness]

you also get free networking

[smoky quest]

and learned tons about things you didn't even know existed

[fringe sphinx]

There’s a number of GitHub links for how to contribute/find a project. My suggestion is: think about what industry you’re interested in, and look at the major projects and up and coming projects. If you want a smaller project, look at conference videos (I’m going through europython 2023 right now): lots of small projects in the lightning talks. Most repos have a ‘good first issues’ label, which is one place to start. Fixing small bugs or even reproducing them is helpful.

[knotty jasper]

Does anybody have any strong opinions on the goodness or badness (my English forsakes me) of the University of Bristol and/or Birmingham for computer science. Specifically the conversion courses

[gilded valley]

Bristol is a pretty good university for this sort of thing wrt employability. no idea about quality of teaching etc

[vapid jay]

My dream would be going into biotech, but from what I can tell, you need some biology background or ML skills.

Bioinformatics is a whole other degree 😦

[hoary scroll]

Hey

[vapid jay]

I am very sceptical about conversion courses, tbh

If you have the required mathematical background, then you should just be able to get into a MSc in advanced computer science. If you don't have enough mathematical background for that, a one-year conversion course will not be enough to get you up to speed and do anything significant

Having said that, conversion courses may be good for checklist ticking in some cases. Some HR departments really just want to see some piece of paper. But apart from that, you are more better off learning to code on your own and making projects, etc., if we are simply talking about learning and career preparedness, especially given the price tag on those courses

[spring gate]

where can i find comissions for discord bots?

[vapid jay]

Python would give you tooling for both

but I'm not in security, so might want talk to your prof

[smoky quest]

this should be able to get a rough idea: https://csed.acm.org/cs2023-beta/

[safe coral]

Hello @smoky quest what do you think about university of Michigan

I got accepted there for masters in applied data science but I’m having a doubt

[smoky quest]

which one?

[safe coral]

Ann Arbor

[smoky quest]

oh I heard awesome things about them

[safe coral]

Thanks 🙂

I think I will choose them

[smoky quest]

congrats

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> ads

[karmic merlin]

!pban 1075771279057104957 14d looks like you are only here to advertise. Consider reading our rules before coming back.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @visual estuary until <t:1694856204:f> (14 days).

[frail sigil]

@hazy birch are you from iran or iraq ?

[hazy birch]

@frail sigil

[frail sigil]

salam

[blazing mauve]

How to change my name colour

[frosty wren]

Anyone with any input on how much employers actually care about courses like this?

https://www.edx.org/professional-certificate/harvardx-computer-science-for-artifical-intelligence

I will have at least a bachelors (in Cognitive Science, with a specialization in information sciences) once I´m done with school.
So how much will a course like the Harvard course be worth "on top of" my Uni degree?
Norwegian work market is where Ill be applying; but I guess all input is valid!

[vital wyvern]

Your courses and certifications are less relevant than the projects you produce with them. If you pick up some information from that course, awesome. Build something with it. Your resume should demonstrate skills, not show off your certificates. ⁠

[frosty wren]

Great input; thanks!

So in theory, I could do the free version of the course (which gives no certificate), learn the stuff and build something, and get the same value/even more value than if I get the 400USD version?

[vital wyvern]

Bingo.

[hearty island]

hey guys, i figured something cool out. there's a way you can filter out easy apply jobs out on LinkedIn using Ublock origin

i remember it was a huge pain in my ass when i was looking for jobs

still am haha

[vapid jay]

do tell

[hearty island]

https://www.reddit.com/r/linkedin/comments/nhzcyz/comment/ioj4vjc/ so according to this you can enter a custom filter on u block origin. so instead of "Promoted", i replaced it with "Easy Apply". works like a charm

idk if y'all wanna pin this, it might be helpful

easy apply jobs never get back to me and just spam me

may just be me but i've seen other ppl say it too

[near ocean]

I wish there was a native way of blocking companies instead, i dont want my feed to be 90% recruiting company bait

[hearty island]

yeah i have some connnections now

[solemn walrus]

hiii guys

it's my first time here

I wanna learn django

[fringe sphinx]

Welcome... you probably want to start in #python-discussion though... this channel is more about jobs.

[fervent grove]

@surreal kindle whats ur background u an undergrad?

[solemn walrus]

uuuh ok

[surreal kindle]

Yes an undergrad.....doin Computer Science at Virtual University of Pakistan

[solemn walrus]

guys do u know how to land my first job as a fullStack developer ???

[near ocean]

Do you have a degree?

[fervent grove]

find interesting job offers and apply? @surreal kindle @solemn walrus

[solemn walrus]

yea sounds like a plan

[surreal kindle]

Why would anyone hire a complete beginner?

[fervent grove]

if u are cheap and dedicated (internship)

[surreal kindle]

Give me some more directions where to apply for an internship as a remote or on site in Pakistan

[fervent grove]

maybe do a project which u can show off in the process

[surreal kindle]

Have many projects

[solemn walrus]

yea I can do a pretty good job

[fervent grove]

dunno about pakistan so cant help u with that and neither do i know remote i always did it on-site

[true harness]

they would not

[fervent grove]

forked from git?
@true harness ofc they do for interns

[solemn walrus]

have you ever applied for a job

[fervent grove]

no im 10yo 🗿 (what u try to achieve with such a question?)

[solemn walrus]

I always tend to ask questions to people who have experience in that specific niche

[surreal kindle]

I can also do it on site if its long term......as my degree is online so that won't be a problem

[fervent grove]

applying for jobs is a niche? or u meaning fullstack?

[solemn walrus]

yeah topic or something people get experience with u know

[fervent grove]

without a bachelor it can be pretty hard

[solemn walrus]

what is the avg salary in pakistan??

[fervent grove]

yes i got experience with applications and the process

[surreal kindle]

any online internship for a python dev such as me?

[true harness]

interns aren't complete beginners

[solemn walrus]

u also 10 y ??

[fervent grove]

search for it major companies dont offer such i think

[fervent grove]

once you are on this discord i categorically exclude complete beginners, cause one spend some time already with setting things up trying things out and running in some problems seeking for help (in most cases)

[true harness]

so when they said "complete beginner", you instead interpreted it as "not complete beginner"

[fervent grove]

he referd to himself as complete beginner while procuring a bachelor in comp science, in my world thats not a total beginner 😕

[true harness]

whatever ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[solemn walrus]

what is the avg salary in ur countries??

[fervent grove]

depends on the level of position and ur degrees

[solemn walrus]

one more question!! what's the job of a devOps

[fervent grove]

just google such things, makes no sense to list it here?

[solemn walrus]

yeah I googled it and I didn't understand!!

[fervent grove]

its the team which does CI/CD with deployed applications but that can vary from company to company
as for me when deploying a product i hold the ownership and am forced to support it further
so once more totally depends on the company and ur tasks

[solemn walrus]

uuh ok then

[fringe sphinx]

DevOps varies a lot but...

[solemn walrus]

and

[fringe sphinx]

generally, it's concerned with all the work required to build and deploy software. So, instead of having one group of developers and another group of operations people, devops are hybrids: developers who do operations work (including building ci/cd systems, deployment automation, etc)

[solemn walrus]

can u give an example please

[fringe sphinx]

Do you know what github actions are?

One example would be: setting up the build / test / deploy scripts in github. Simple example, but a fundamental task

In our case, we have a lot complex scripts and automation we run to stage/deploy/update code into AWS. Part of this code involves trying to minimize our costs while maximizing customer experience (performance): we don't want dozens of servers running when we only need 2, for instance. Another part is handling errors during runtime: if a node fails, we need to take certain actions. This automation can be quite complex.

[woeful wharf]

what are the beginning process to become a "Python Developer/R&D devs" from mid artist (Lighting/Comp) ??

[fringe sphinx]

Step 1. Pick a Python tutorial and learn the basics. Step 2. Practice. Step 3. ?? Step 4. $$

[woeful wharf]

are an expert python devs, allow use to see reference for API from online along with chatGPT?

[fringe sphinx]

We always use api docs and references. Gpt is bad for learning/novices. Once you’ve mastered the fundamentals, I think it can be useful (if you understand the limitations)

[woeful wharf]

ok, without GPT:

for example in software application, some windows are appear or pop-up prompt without identify a classes or objects. how do we identify them ?

[smoky quest]

why would someone ask you to identify which windows show up to a user and to link that to the api or reference doc?

[unreal turtle]

should i add AP CS class to my linkedin profile?

[true harness]

#career-advice message

[restive juniper]

hi everyone, i have a cuestion, what branch of the software development with python have it more job opportunity?

or in which is easier to get a job if you have no experience?

[smoky quest]

entry level don't require experience by definition.
So it's more about your education (ie. having a degree), projects and internships

[unreal turtle]

Ty

[restive juniper]

Ok, but which field has more job opportunities today?

[smoky quest]

backend and frontend are probably the most popular

[restive juniper]

but i need learn javascript for the frontend right?

for be fullstack

[smoky quest]

right. Assuming you want to be fullstack or frontend

[restive juniper]

I assumed that the full stack is the most sought after role.
I don't want to learn javascript so I exclude web development which would be another popular branch of pthon.

[smoky quest]

We are talking about your career. So something you have to be comfortable doing for 40 years. If you don't like frontend, then don't get into frontend related things.

I would also note that optimizing for what's the most popular is not necessarily the best way to go about your career

[restive juniper]

I would like to develop videogames and I learned c# and unity but it is too difficult (I mean making a game successful, not programming)

So I decided to look for a job and I want the one with the most scope to have a better chance of getting it.

[smoky quest]

most popular also implies the most competition 😉
(somewhat)

[restive juniper]

Of course, but it is easier to compete against others for a job than to be successful making games.

So do you think that data analysis is what has the most opportunities?

[smoky quest]

what's your situation and context?

it would help to take a step back

[restive juniper]

sorry I don't understand what you mean

[smoky quest]

are you a 12 years old thinking about high school or are you closer to a 50 years old person with a phd in astrophysics, or are you a 30 years old stay at home mom trying to get back to a career?

they would not get the same advice since their situation would be different

[restive juniper]

jeje ok ok i already understand
I'm 24 years old I'm in the middle of my computer science degree and I'm seeing that I can't stay until I have my degree I want to try to get a job in the tech industry before I graduate
I'm from Latam so I'm in hard mode but we're all used to it by now
that's my context bro

[smoky quest]

Thanks! That helps!
First, I would suggest to do whatever you can to hang on to that degree. Be it side jobs, student loans, continuing work on the side for the company where you interned at or whatever. That makes a huge difference in terms of career and access to jobs or even visas (if you plan on emigrating).

Without a degree, frontend and then fullstack are the easiest points of entry for self taught people.

[restive juniper]

but the frontend is only with javascript, right?
There is no library or framework to do frontend with python?

[smoky quest]

correct

[smoky quest]

on the python side, that would probably be things like QA/QE or peripheral to dev, like all sorts of small automation

[sullen sparrow]

Anyone have ideas about how I can find refurbished office chairs

[vapid jay]

I would also like to know actually

[vapid jay]

Facebook marketplace

[muted bridge]

Hear me out. I'm a freshman at Penn State University taking classes in a local campus, and I'm trying to make a fullstack project to showcase on my resume. In my 2 weeks of college, I've founded the computer science club, and I need to plan out some activities for the club. I was thinking about making a website that several people from the club can contribute to. Would this impress potential employers?

[true harness]

isn't there ACM at penn state already? and a web dev club ?

[muted bridge]

there is, but not at my campus

I'll be transferring to the main campus next year

[true harness]

i see. sure, any project has the potential to impress employers

[muted bridge]

only problem is, I have limited experience with html, css, and javascript, and I'm not sure what other fullstack utilities I should add to the website

to create the website with several people, I should know GitHub, html, css, and js, but is there anything more I should know/need?

[true harness]

not sure. web dev isn't really my specialty. but you can always use docker, gh actions

[muted bridge]

what are those

[true harness]

topics you can research 😉

[muted bridge]

rip

[vapid jay]

👋

[vapid jay]

You'll end up picking up tools along the way. It's good to follow through on projects in general. I heard FastAPI + NextJs is a good combo.

[muted bridge]

alright

[vapid jay]

Try some frameworks

[muted bridge]

are they difficult to learn? also what's the point of them

ive heard about react for javascript but I don't actually know what frameworks do

[gritty rivet]

One thing it depends on is what employers you are asking about. If you know what sort of internships you might be applying for then the easier it will be to tailor a project that demonstrates those skills.

The only engineering intern we've ever hired at the small company I work for was doing front-end VueJS stuff, but I'm sure all kinds of other stuff is out there

[vapid jay]

Libraries are add ons. Frameworks give you most of what you need.

[muted bridge]

i'm not actually sure what concentration of cs I'm interested in which is why I think a fullstack project would at least expose me to a lot of things at once

[vapid jay]

React has a good structure, and depending on what you want to do there will be other libraries to add to your app

Frameworks like Django handles most of the things you'd want to do building a full stack app

[muted bridge]

django is for python right

[vapid jay]

Yup

[gritty rivet]

Yeah, I feel like the most generic full stack project people usually start with is MERN but since this is a Python server you might build something on Django instead. Still need JS for a decent frontend though

[vapid jay]

Depending on the popularity, there's a discord channel for them

[muted bridge]

what is mern

[gritty rivet]

Put that in to Google and you can find loads of tutorials. Mongo, React, I forget the rest and I've never done it myself, but it's clearly popular and flexible for building any sort of full-feature website

[fringe sphinx]

My two cents on what impresses employers: it’s not (usually) the project, but your ability to explain it in depth and discuss the decisions you made.

[muted bridge]

o its like an acronym

[true harness]

express, node

[woeful wharf]

for automation process and they're are 100+ of keywords from API references

how do i know the keywords without looking API references?

[crisp stream]

@vapid jay, we're not a job board. see #rules

[vapid jay]

oh i am sorry i didn't know about this rule

[late pewter]

Who can recommend me good video on explaining object oriented programming with classes and such

I tried harvard’s Cs50’s vid but i no understand

[zealous path]

!resources might have one

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[karmic helm]

Hiii

[buoyant seal]

May be in 5-10 (or 20) years it will become common using non Javascript web frontend, once more maturity will be achieved to WASM 😅

[vapid jay]

hello everyone，I'm working full-time on the open-source project SolidUI, which can generate any graph with just one sentence. I welcome friends to participate and contribute together.

[lapis wind]

2 things:

1. this is not an advertising channel for job posts
2. If I had a penny for every time I saw some AI <insert field here> startup or company aiming at saas, I would be a rich man

Not here, the server doesn't allow any job posting or ads in general

[vapid jay]

Upwork or fiverrr have competitive professionals

[bright otter]

Alright

[vapid jay]

Give it a try and good luck 🙏

[bright otter]

Thank you

[chilly barn]

Hey, I am looking for a partner to work on leetcode problems because I always tried to avoid it. I have already worked on several fullstack projects and know programming quite well, just not DSA. If you are from europe (speaking german even better) just dm me. Mind that I want to tackle questions together for learning purpose. Language would be python

[soft cairn]

can anyone recommend me good python begginer intermediate and advanced python projects to work on Github?

[fervent grove]

kaggle would be a good place to check for datasets/projects

[hidden mauve]

Sup

[solemn walrus]

hiiii

[solemn walrus]

python is 4 badddies

[crystal chasm]

Has anyone ever studied cybersecurity or computer science?

Just curious to know which one has a better degree and pays the most in terms of salary overall

[graceful mason]

There are tons of different factors that affect the degree quality and salary... But in my experience (UK) they pay about the same

[crystal chasm]

Yeah I discovered that when I did research on the average salary by comparison they were almost the same

But is the degree irrelevant in this case of comparison?

As for jobs/roles for example

[graceful mason]

They both will be a lot easier to enter with a degree, but cybersecurity is easier to break into without a non-university qualification (like apprenticeship or college degree)

[vapid jay]

what does this mean?

[balmy spade]

Don't spam. This is not related to the topic of this room. Use #❓｜how-to-get-help

[smoky quest]

A CS degree is the path of least resistance with the most opportunities and compensation.

You also have to look at the long term effects as your career choices will compound. If you look at them as trajectories, starting out with a degree will provide you more knowledge, skills and professional network and access to better jobs. Which in turns enable you to do well in these jobs and prepare you for even better jobs with in turns will compound.
Without a degree you will have a lower access and thus will need more time and effort to catch up to that other trajectory.

Plus note the field is very wide. cybersercurity could mean any number of things and that CS is everywhere. So to that end, the array of available job will require different skillset. And the web agencies that are very cutthroat and try to minimize costs will attract a very different profile than other companies more focused on developping new tech products

And as a final note, there is also the point of view of the employment market. There are a lot of new entrants driven by its appeal and money. That makes it so that every job ad receives thousands of applicants, most of which with degrees, projects and internships. Thus standing out with just your projects would require more effort than most are willing to provide.

[smoky quest]

I realized I went straight for the typical question we get about degree when the original person was asking something different 🤔

[gritty rivet]

What matters here is all you. Which one is better for for your interests and talents?

[desert radish]

Is anyone available for resume review? Thanks!

[smoky quest]

post it here and people will start commenting on it

[muted bridge]

how should I get into cloud computing?

[muted bridge]

oh really?

if i want to get my resume reviewed I should probably delete all identifying information I assume, correct?

[true harness]

if you so choose

[smoky quest]

I never lie.

And sure, feel free to anonymize it

[muted bridge]

k, I'll try to do that sometime soon since I have a career fair coming up

[muted bridge]

okay, I have it ready, should I upload it as a pdf or should I just send screenshots?

[smoky quest]

Not sure this channel accepts pdfs. But you could put links to it or upload screenshots

[muted bridge]

okay

I'm aware that it's missing projects, but I'd just like to know if the formatting is fine and if what I have so far is a good foundation for my freshman year

[vapid jay]

on the roblox section i would change the "100k active members" to something along the lines of "with around 100,000 people taking an interest in the business, selling x amount of merchandise"

make sure you also specify that its a virtual store in case they ask for evidence

[muted bridge]

are you sure? that kind of makes it sound like the business simply received 100k impressions rather than people taking part in my business

[vapid jay]

did 100,000 people buy from your store or just join your group u didnt rly specify

[muted bridge]

they joined, but there are certainly more sales than that

[vapid jay]

yeah so since they joined you could mention that you received over 100,000 impressions and try to find out how many buyers you had

[muted bridge]

also yeah I'm definitely gonna edit that part in since I didn't think I should be calling it a site in the first place

[vapid jay]

also do mention that its virtual cause think about it like this

"oh nice this guy ran a clothing store and received 100,000 ACTIVE impressions HOWEVER only made $12,000 annually"

in other terms, a business receiving 100,000 customers but only making $12,000 just seems like a charity

just tryna spice up ur portfolio thats all

[muted bridge]

yeah that makes sense

[muted bridge]

so if the business had 1.5m+ sales, should i just state that it had 100,000 impressions and 1.5m+ sales?

[vapid jay]

i would exclude impressions then and just be like "The store was able to generate around $12,000 annually, totalling around 1,500,000 sales overall during it's time"

[muted bridge]

alright

thanks

[muted bridge]

any other thoughts?

[vapid jay]

give me a sec to read

could provide more tiktok analytics
helps show that you are good at the marketing side of things further expanding ur field

can also be shortened down a bit, remove the anime as its not related to industry and may be something brough up through coworker interactions, merge HTML and CSS together into "Website development" and instead of listing everything together, categorise them into

Skills:
Languages: Python, HTML/CSS, Javascript (could mention other stuff like node, backend etc)
Software: Git (not github), IBM Cloud, IntelliJ

[muted bridge]

alright

@vapid jay ive also seen others bolden key statistics in their descriptions, should I do that as well? Or is it unnecessary?

[vapid jay]

bolding titles like this is good, and yes bolding values is also good as it can catch their attention better

just dont overuse

[muted bridge]

should I bold things like the clothing sales & the selectiveness of the programs I participated in?

like is this a good use of bolding? @vapid jay

also thanks for all the help

[vapid jay]

not the technology and for the acceptance i would put that in italics since youve put it in brackets

[muted bridge]

you mean as opposed to bolding?

[vapid jay]

yes

[safe coral]

omg hi @muted bridge you are in Penn State?

[muted bridge]

im in a local campus, not university park

[safe coral]

Cool! I graduated from University of Bloomsburg

[muted bridge]

some of my teachers went to bloomsburg, i hear its a big party school lol

[safe coral]

I didnt party. I had two majors and two minors. I was very busy

[muted bridge]

same, i dont rlly intend to party tho I hear parties at psu are very good

[muted bridge]

oh wtf 2 majors and 2 minors thats crazy

[safe coral]

Yup Data Science and Cybersecurity majors and Statistics and Information Tech Analytics minors

Im gonna do my masters in Applied Data Science in University of Michigan

[muted bridge]

how many units did you take a semester

[safe coral]

like 18 I think

[harsh river]

a party now and then doesn't hurt

[safe coral]

People who party usually study boring subjects like Business who dont need to study

Im yet to see someone in STEM major that parties like monkeys

[muted bridge]

idk it just doesn’t sound too interesting to me

[harsh river]

sounds like me 😛

[safe coral]

Are you a STEM major?

[harsh river]

yes, technology

[safe coral]

Nice in the USA?

[harsh river]

yep

[safe coral]

Nice! Where are you going?

[harsh river]

come to think of it my closest party bud is STEM as well, she just finished her engineering science bachelors and is starting her masters soon

[harsh river]

Rochester institute of tech

[safe coral]

Omg I was gonna apply there

for my masters

[harsh river]

that's cool, why didn't you?

[smoky quest]

• Jane street internship - show, don't tell. Don't just say you understand better combinatorics, etc. Instead show how you mastered them
• Jane street internship - Pretty much every internship is nationally selected 😉
• Tiktok. Make it explicit you don't work for them in the title. For instanc put content creator at the same level.
• In terms of experience or projects, it's useful to put them into context and how they were used. It helps show impact

But overall, pretty cool resume

[muted bridge]

okay, thanks

[muted bridge]

when you say to make it explicit that I don’t work there, what do you suggest I write underneath the title?

[smoky quest]

Tiktok - content creator
Instead of

Tiktok
Content Creator

[muted bridge]

alright

[smoky quest]

Or Content creator on Tiktok

[true harness]

Make it explicit you don't work for them in the title. For instanc put content creator at the same level.
same with Roblox

[muted bridge]

yea I assumed the same thing applied

[muted bridge]

is this fine for both

[fleet reef]

"TikTok creator" on a resume?

[fringe sphinx]

Too many titles is a negative for me, not a positive. CMO and CTO is something I’d probably lol at.

I’d probably put sleepcore in the header, and Roblox into the description: you didn’t work for Roblox (what psv said)

[muted bridge]

i figured it was somewhat related since it's about math content

i am also majoring in math

[fringe sphinx]

It’s something us boomers laugh at. Can you say it without saying ‘TikTok creator’ at the top level?

[muted bridge]

not sure what else I could call it besides content creator

[fringe sphinx]

Just repeating what psv said: Neither TikTok nor Roblox should be the bold top level of these: you didn’t work for them

Maybe put your channel name and link instead?

[muted bridge]

that makes sense

[fringe sphinx]

Especially if it’s math related, it would sound great

[muted bridge]

should I just reformat all my experiences by first naming it and providing a 2-3 word summary of the activity right next to it?

so for example i put the name of my channel and then tiktok channel right after

[fringe sphinx]

Experiences should be the name of the company, then title, etc.

[smoky quest]

lgtm

[fringe sphinx]

For TikTok, this is a first for me: this normally wouldn’t be in experience, but you are an incoming freshman/ not a resume I ever see.

[muted bridge]

?

[smoky quest]

Looks Good To Me

[fringe sphinx]

But maybe make the edits and see what other folks think?

[muted bridge]

alright

[safe coral]

I was late for the application @harsh river

Billy I got accepted to Berkeley but it’s 90K @fringe sphinx

I don’t wanna pay for that haha

[fringe sphinx]

I would try to take TikTok out of title and put ‘Math Education Channel’ or something

[muted bridge]

alright

[fringe sphinx]

Idea is to emphasize the ‘so what’: this guy created math videos, isn’t that cool! As opposed to: oh, it’s tiktok

[muted bridge]

thanks

[safe coral]

Someone told me my resume doesn’t show the tools I used

I thought it was better to remove them per conversation we had guys

[fringe sphinx]

I always said show the tools

[true harness]

show cool things, not boring things

[fringe sphinx]

It’s the first thing I look for: do they know our stack? Or anything relevant to the job?

[safe coral]

I’m like hella confused about resume writing. Someone told me not to mention keras scikitlearn

Someone else told me it’s better I mention those

[fringe sphinx]

I would’ve said leave them. But, there are certainly differences of opinion.

[safe coral]

Leave them in the resume?

[fringe sphinx]

My screen is: does the resume show they can and have written code? Do they write code like the code we need them to write? Have they done anything interesting or sufficiently complex?

[safe coral]

With tools included

Without tools

[muted bridge]

this is good?

[fringe sphinx]

The bottom version is the kind of resume I usually skip.

[safe coral]

Didn’t you guys tell me the first resume is too verbose?

[fringe sphinx]

The top one might be too verbose, but I’d prefer it over second

[safe coral]

Too verbose as in too many words?

[fringe sphinx]

Yes

[safe coral]

Like can you give me an example how would you write the first bullet

[fringe sphinx]

But please remember it’s just my opinion. Lots of people think differently

[safe coral]

So that it doesn’t sound verbose

How can I rewrite the first bullet?

[fringe sphinx]

Yah give me a sec

[fringe sphinx]

Yes, I think that is better

[muted bridge]

alright thanks

[fringe sphinx]

Using classical and ML analysis in sklearn & keras, developed models to identify and evaluate revenue improvement opportunities @safe coral

(Still could be polished)

[safe coral]

Nice

Thank you doc!☺️

[fringe sphinx]

I feel like that would be enough for an interviewer to say: tell me how you identified and evaluated these opportunities

You certainly didn’t single handedly increase the hotels revenue by 20%… and it’d take too many words to connect your actions to the hotels later success

[safe coral]

Yup that’s true

[fringe sphinx]

While I’m at it; second one: Developed a data visualization system in Python+ seaborn and ggplot + R, analyzing feedback data to support the successful guest retention improvement program. (Is there more to the stack? Can you make it sound more interesting? Any web component?) @safe coral

[odd yacht]

How did yall who would consider(or others consider you) as experts find mentors? Or did you even have any? I am running into an issue where I am using python a lot at work but I am the only one on my team who does. Finding someone more experienced than I and just take a peek at my screen is becoming an issue.

What or how would you go about finding someone to be that person if you were starting over again? My initial thought is to find a project to help with so there is a shared interest and understanding of the work.

[peak halo]

are you a junior or mid+ person? because if you're a junior person in a position that requires you to use Python, your manager should be able to connect you with senior people who can help you.

[odd yacht]

I am an automation engineer that mostly deals with PLC logic and related tasks. But this year I have been working on making tools useable for our production team. We haven't hired any actual devs since its a small company and its not critical work.

I'd consider myself novice but can usually figure it out after working with a new concept in a few hours.

[smoky quest]

are there other python people? If so, you could start a guild or cop

Outside of work, there may be other people like you hanging out in some communities dedicated to automation and plc

[odd yacht]

Nope. Its just me and one other employee who does this kind of stuff and they dont "write code" other than structured text. I think finding a mentor at work is a no go currently

[odd yacht]

This!^ Just trying to figure out how to find them lol.

[smoky quest]

probably more luck on irc, xmpp or matrix.
Discord tend to be more on the younger side

[odd yacht]

I'm making a face.... But thank you. Time to pull out my 90s teen haircut and oaklies. I totally forgot IRC was a thing.

[smoky quest]

yeah, not as cool as paying for emojis

But lots of knowledgeable people 😉

[peak halo]

I'll have you know that my $100/yr to use dank af emojis is money well spent.

[smoky quest]

I can't hear you over the sound of people following me on tiktok

[odd yacht]

I dont have ticktock

[delicate bane]

||that may be for the best ||

[naive forge]

If I open tick Tok an hour has passed before I realize what has happened. I try not to

[mint surge]

Can i hire coders here?

[smoky quest]

nope

[mint surge]

Do u know were i can?

[smoky quest]

indeed, linkedin, fiverrrr and upwork are very popular

[mint surge]

Any discord servers?

[smoky quest]

none that I know about

[mint surge]

ok

[vital light]

you need only coders

that is incredibly rare, considering you are willing to pay

the only reason to hire a coder for python would be if you didn't know how to run 2to3

[mint surge]

I just need someone to code me a bot for roblox with a few commands

[vital light]

in python?

[mint surge]

Anything that will work for it

[vital light]

so luau instead then

[mint surge]

If it works ig

@vital light are u able to help

[vital light]

well what do you want the commands to do

i'm sure i could find a guide for you

[smoky quest]

and also would be less apparent how you are both flouting the rules

<@&831776746206265384> openly flouting rules and being insulting

[vital light]

how is finding a guide for someone aginst the rules

are you like... confused as to what we were doing

[smoky quest]

There is a record of deleted messages and openly sending a middle finger emoji does get a specific point across

[vital light]

okay, so you deserved it

it was just gonna help him learn lua. jesus.

you ping mods because i was going to help someone learn a language

i mean sure i guess, but like... maybe chill

for reference i gave you the middle finger emoji because you were being fascist

not worth the argument tho

[smoky quest]

please don't use words you don't know the meaning of.
You don't seem very chill for someone who sends middle finger emojis, try to get hired for jobs and then send 7 messages in a row

Let's move on from this off topic hiring request

[lime compass]

Hello

[honest gulch]

from where to learn DSA in python?

[jaunty steppe]

There are some good links pinned in #algos-and-data-structs

[late pewter]

how do i make coding a hobby

[marsh wind]

what's the point of your posts here? you are asking more or less same question time and again, and you already got your answers

[near ocean]

Its spam at this point, act on the feedback you get and dont ask this again

[vapid jay]

Utilize coding as a self-healing mechanism. When you experience emotional distress, coding can serve as a comforting hobby that provides you with a sense of security. 🙏

[vapid jay]

Hi

[trim harness]

hi all. how good would you need to be before it makes sense to offer your service professionally? like on freelance portals or apply for jobs. im very good with logic and languages, so i was able to learn programming fast. but im still quite unexperienced

but i think a good but slightly unexperienced coder could be more useful than a not very good but quite experienced coder

[fringe sphinx]

Freelance and full time jobs are two very diff questions, and it matters what type of position. Are you asking what do you need to get an entry level software engineer position?

[trim harness]

Mostly thinking freelance as it fits with my gfx frelancing. Also my client, who is a big bureau in localisation is diving into data science and ML. But i have no idea what level is equivalent of 'good' / 'expected'

I want to work for them in this field, but im unsure about where i am compared to others, so i havent asked yet

[fringe sphinx]

I’ve done a lot of consulting over the years. I don’t think my clients were concerned directly with how ‘good’ I was: rather whether I could: understand their problem, propose a reasonable and achievable plan to solve it, and whether I had relevant experience / portfolio

A lot of soft skills are involved

[trim harness]

Makes sense, under the definition of 'able to solve said problem', you were good enough for said client

[fringe sphinx]

Most of my success, I think, was being able to understand the problem and show that I understood it equal or better (differently, really) than them.

Now, that’s just my experience, consulting in enterprise software. So, take it with a grain of salt

[trim harness]

I guess ill just have to ask them, and be truthful about my lack of experience without stressing it too muxh, and then show them the projects i have built, then they can assess it themself

[marsh wind]

remember, asking is free (well, most cases)

[trim harness]

Yea being overly shy isnt a winning recipe...

[marsh wind]

also, as you mentioned Data science and ML, you should keep in mind that this field is usually have higher expectations in terms of your degree

[trim harness]

Yes i guess its not typical entry level stuff. Just because i can play around with a dataframe and make stuff work... They might need someone with big proffessional insight in statistics. But maybe they also need a "junior dev". Or the "professional" statician they have is so mediocre anyways that he really needs my help lol

[marsh wind]

AI/ML/Data stuff still can very well be an entry level position. But more like than not they will be expecting a person to have an at least somewhat relevant degree, and, quite often, Masters one.

[trim harness]

Right. From my profession, people could care less about degree, they just look at portfolio. So thats something im not used to

I think that it could be smart for me to focus on data vizualisation, where i would benefit greatly from my design experience

[fringe sphinx]

This is good stuff to think about. Sometimes freelancers bite off more than they can deliver. I hate getting pulled into data science stuff for other reasons: the projects seem to never end, because when does "science" ever end? When is it good enough? It's tough to come up with acceptance criteria. Much easier when it comes to data engineering / visualization / etc.

[trim harness]

Yeah i feel alot more confident in that area. I appreciate your inputs, both of you. The criteria thing makes alot of sense that i hadnt thought of, and right now i wouldnt have a good basis for confidently assess when 'it is good enough', due to lack of data science background.

When i had to style my visualized data with html/css i felt quite excited and put in alot more effort than was needed, i think such things are very saying of where we will be our best: simply when we feel most passionate

[oblique nest]

Can someone help me find a good source to learn about IBMCloud Code engine if you have any idea about it

[peak plaza]

hi guys

anyone know any REMOTE WORK / JOB COMMUNITY? in or outside of discord

[grizzled jewel]

Hello together,
i search a german dev who's interested in a unique huge project. I ll explain the details to you in DMs

[fervent grove]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[grizzled jewel]

Alr sry

[prime jackal]

lol, happens to the best of us

[ashen nymph]

How did you source clients?

[fringe sphinx]

Personal relationships / "never have lunch alone". You have to look at nearly every conversation as an opportunity to get to the next conversation... to discover some problem. Networking events, meetups, etc are reallly helpful: you might not find a client, but you'll make a friend in the industry/etc.

I also worked in industry first, in both small tech and big tech, and had some lucky events that gave me a pretty good network to start from (namely: it helps to work for a startup with a massive IPO that implodes a year later... you suddenly know lots of people looking for work)

So, if you can: drive a startup to success, then cause it to fail. 🙂 (obv /s)

[thorn frigate]

@oblique tiger check dms

[brazen island]

Small word of advice, most users are from the states and answers are given based on their context. If you're not then imo it's best to ask in a place that has locals.

For instance, if you're in most western-european places like myself you could likely get an apprenticeship or a Jr. type job where they train you.

[vapid jay]

I've been only been in corporate. Are startups as demanding as they say?

I feel like the cooler stuff happens there

[gilded valley]

In the UK, non-degree apprenticeships are a bit rubbish. degree apprenticeships are great, but relatively rare and competitive

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, I never saw a difference. In big tech, i worked on cool stuff too and felt like my work had a bigger impact, but I’ll say the employee quality and motivation of startups was much higher: there was no room for useless people.

[vapid jay]

better get in shape first then

[fringe sphinx]

Queue Rocky montage: https://youtu.be/28E0IwAgNK8?si=ECxJ0DDRdS8yidyH

[vapid jay]

I was just there last week haha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IESEcsjDcmM

[brazen island]

I'm on the other side of the channel. It isn't uncommon that places train people with affinity in the domain or even better, you can get a stipend during your entire CS bachelors.

[regal axle]

What US colleges are currently studying "modern" ML/AI for grad programs? [With a focus on the CS/physical side vs the statistics side.] I am doing my own research into what schools to apply (ultimate goal is PhD) but I like knowing what other people know/think.
(Yes, I know that the field I am asking on is vague. But that is fine here)

[fringe sphinx]

Python Eats Burrito just applied to US ML grad programs, maybe search history for his comments?

[marsh wind]

In France I am yet to see non degree apprenticeship in tech... Maybe it's more possible for pivoting already hired person into other role

[regal axle]

I can not find who you are talking about

[gilded valley]

they're quite common here. the problem is a lot of companies use them for cheap labour and do no real teaching

[fringe sphinx]

Username is jigglypuff, didn’t want to @ him!

[regal axle]

That is fine. I agree with the @ . I was just not able to find based on the name you gave. Silly emojis

[brazen island]

Either way, this goes to show that if you're non-US you should add your country as the differences are big

[regal axle]

Another question. Long story short, I have not taken the GRE. I don't have to because not all schools require it. But some do. Should I take it? How long will it take to prep for it? I want to apply this semester (so apps are due generally in november or december)

[true harness]

see if the schools you want to apply to need it. if yes, then you have to take it

[regal axle]

Well sure. But so far those are my reach schools that require it. And so ... eh, no point for them. But others don't take it and some it is optional. But I have no idea if it will even help me with those optional one? I feel like it will only help if I do really well on the test. But to do that would probably require a lot of time. Not sure if it is worth it

[gilded valley]

ideally all advice would include the country and experience of the advisor.

but low effort questions which don't include that information are naturally going to garner lower effort answers

[true harness]

are they really reach schools if you're not even trying lol. as for optional ones, I'm not sure. a lot of schools have been "test optional", so to speak, and they all say something like "blah blah holistic lack of test score doesn't matter". I would still take it, but I'm confident I can do well. if you aren't as confident (or believe it's truly optional) then I would probably skip it

[regal axle]

I am sure I can do well. It is more a question of time. I don't really have a lot free time right now to be able to prep. I can move things around if really needed but not ideal.

[brazen island]

When I was studying I used a bunch of resources from Stanford on top of what my uni gave us. Also downloaded some syballi from other heavy hitters like CMU.

[ancient moon]

Hi everyone. I am interested in joining the tech world and don't know where to start. It seems that every application online wants at least a Bachelors degree with experience. I started learning Python, but not sure where to go with it. I was wondering if i need to go to school to get into tech. I have been trying to find apprenticeships, but It's very difficult.

[smoky quest]

What's your situation, education level, etc.?

[ancient moon]

I'm literally just starting out learning Python. I really like being on the computer and would love to get into the tech industry, but not sure what has the lowest barrier to entry. I started looking at Python and seeing it was in demand, but wondering if I will need school to find work.

I looked at android and game development, but everything is so vague.

[summer roost]

what prior experience do you have? what country are you in? what education do you have?

[ancient moon]

No experience with tech. I'm located in the United States and completed a high school diploma

[summer roost]

do you have non-tech experience in an industry that use a lot of tech? some people manage to successfully transition careers from moving from the data or business side of some industry to the tech side of that same industry - moving from being the role that programmers are serving to the programmer serving that role

[ancient moon]

No, sadly I spent time working in factories on the production line.

[summer roost]

Well, it's possible to get a software job without a degree, though considerably harder than getting one with a degree. Your competition for jobs will primarily be people who've spent at least 4 years studying software and computing principles. If you can manage to get a degree, even an AS, it would be a big help. Failing that, a boot camp could help your odds, if you can find a reputable one. The best ones have relationships with businesses and essentially train people on the exact set of skills that those businesses want their entry level hires to have. The worst ones claim that all of their graduates get job offers, and maintain that guarantee by offering their graduates jobs as instructors for future boot camp classes, pyramid scheme style. You'll need to do your research. The type of development that people without degrees have the most luck breaking into is web development, and so JavaScript will be more immediately useful to you than Python

[lean sundial]

I got an apprenticeship within 2 weeks of learning code

[deft pelican]

(is this the suitable channel to rant about work? 😅)
Sprint planning, I felt so lost as one of the more senior devs in my team. I just stared blankly for a minute here and there trying to come up with what to do. I felt bad not captaining the ride

[ancient moon]

I have been searching around for opportunities like an apprenticeship, but half of them look fake or want you to have perfect gpa to get looked at for it.

[lean sundial]

Not really

[summer roost]

that's interesting. What country was that in? What previous education/work experience did you have?

[lean sundial]

London and I had no experience of software engineer

[ancient moon]

I literally couldn't find an apprenticeship that looked legit around my area unless I just don't know what to look for which is probably the case

[lean sundial]

I work for Expedia Group in Experimentation

[fringe sphinx]

Like, qa/testing?

[lean sundial]

No like software engineer

[deft pelican]

What is GPA?

[fringe sphinx]

Very unusual to get hired that way, did you know someone?

[summer roost]

ah, yeah. apprenticeships of that sort are for more common in the UK than the US. From what I gather, in the UK apprenticeships form a sort of parallel track to uni, in sort of the way that trade schools might in the US for applied trades

[lean sundial]

No, I worked hard for 2 weeks 10 hours per day and got in

[fringe sphinx]

This rates ‘not likely’ on my bs radar, but congrats.

(Or there’s something else to this)

[lean sundial]

Lmao heres proof

[summer roost]

apprenticeships are just much more of a thing in the UK than the US.

[near ocean]

Youre not meant to have experience in an apprenticeship
The only requirements are to be 16 or over and not be studying iirc

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, maybe I don’t know what they are then. I assumed same as internship.

[smoky quest]

If you are in HS, then aim for a CS degree. That's the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[ancient moon]

But what if I want to get into it faster than 4 years? That's a long time lol

[smoky quest]

it's more like you find a company willing to you have you part time. You spend part time at work and part time at school

[near ocean]

Why this random deadline?

[smoky quest]

There are no shortcuts.
that means you would go in with lower skills and knowledge

[ancient moon]

Because not everyone can just randomly go to college for 4 years

[smoky quest]

why not?

[near ocean]

Whats holding you back

[fringe sphinx]

Lots of folks finish ahead of schedule with summer courses (but without internships)

[sacred ice]

Guys i need help

[ancient moon]

College is too expensive and a big risk when I dont know how to code and don't know what I'm up against

[lean sundial]

Imagine the advancement of AI and going to Uni, it's more of a risk. Better to get an apprenticeship

[summer roost]

not like an internship - much more like an apprenticeship in the US would be, as something like an electrician's apprentice. That's just something that's not much of a thing for tech roles in the US. it's not totally unheard of, but it is quite uncommon.

[sacred ice]

What type and what will I be doing with the codes I write

[near ocean]

They teach you how to code, you dont need to know beforehand

[smoky quest]

It's an an investment in your future, not a cost.

there are ways to reduce the cost through student loans, student jobs, community college, in state college, etc.

[fringe sphinx]

Interesting, yah, it’s too bad we don’t have them. What’s the outcome though? Do they finish a degree while doing it? Or do they end up no degree but with 4 year’s experience?

[ancient moon]

There has to be something in tech quicker than going to school for 4 years

[near ocean]

Usually you earn a degree by the end of an apprenticeship otherwise its not worth it

[fringe sphinx]

Yes, we’re really talking about SWE jobs. There are many jobs in tech that don’t require degrees

[smoky quest]

If there was an equivalent that is shorter with the same results and cheaper, everyone would be doing it.

[fringe sphinx]

(But, with lower salary outcomes)

[summer roost]

I laid out the options above: 4 year degree, 2 year degree, bootcamp, self-taught. All of them are options, but they have different expected value in terms of types of work and lifetime earnings

[lean sundial]

Do an apprenticeship, you can get a swe job within 2 months of studying and free 3 month bootcamp fully provided

[summer roost]

that's really not an option in the US, in my experience.

[ancient moon]

Like if I learned Python and SQl on my own could I monetize it?

[smoky quest]

even having seen it in the EU, I am not convinced about apprenticeships

[near ocean]

Thats not a thing anywhere, you cant just leave the apprenticeship before you get your degree and they pay like shit from what i've heard

[smoky quest]

you could monetize it. That would just be a path with more resistance, less compensation and less opportunities

[vapid jay]

It would going from technician to SRE type route

[summer roost]

like, freelance?

[lean sundial]

It depends on the company, me and my partner got an apartment because of our apprenticeship and we make more then the median household accross all age groups

[late flame]

Learning any high paying skill is going to take time. You could probably monetize it if you learn Python and SQL on your own but a) this still isn't a shortcut since you're looking at years of effort, and b) you're going to have less opportunities and income as a result.

[vapid jay]

I got hired with a batch of inexperienced people through a contracting company

[ancient moon]

Yeah freelance or even get a job

Looking for a tech skill I can learn quickly and get employed possibly

[vapid jay]

Don't know if they still do that though

[near ocean]

How much are you making right now and how long has it been since you started?
One apprentice i know was earning 30k 5 years into the program, thats criminally low

[ancient moon]

I started learning Python and understand it so far

[late flame]

None exist. There is no skill that is easy to learn and also pays well. There are however skills that take time to learn and pay well.

When you're self taught and looking for jobs you're going up against people with 4 year degrees. If you can get a degree, why not?

[fringe sphinx]

I’m impressed with the opportunity: in US: no degree, you’re not getting in the door for a SWE interview (at least not in this market). But, you can get QA and Ops jobs.

[lean sundial]

My starting salary is 33k and 45k next year

[late flame]

USD or GBP?

[lean sundial]

GBP

so with my partner combined (at 18) it's 60+

[near ocean]

Thats wild

[late flame]

That seems about right for an internship. I'm assuming apprenticeships generally pay the same as internships would in America.

[ancient moon]

Another thing I wanted to ask is what's the deal with IT certifications and certifications in general? Do they help to land a job?

[near ocean]

Its not an internship, its an apprenticeship

[lean sundial]

I was able to get my own apartment at 18 because of it, so I'm happy for my opportunity. Interships are not apprenticeships,

[late flame]

They sometimes do but if it's better if you have a degree.

[near ocean]

Is this the level 4 software eng apprenticeship?

[summer roost]

freelancing is another option, and admittedly it's one that I know less about, having never done it myself. My understanding is that the market for freelancers is bimodal - there are a lot of very poorly paying freelance gigs for low skilled freelancers where your competition will mostly be devs from other countries with much lower costs of living than yours who can profitably work for $10/day, and there are a lot of well paying freelance gigs for experts or for people who've curated a network of repeat customers that can easily pay as well as a typical full-time software engineer position. There's many more jobs available at those two extremes than there are jobs in the middle

[lean sundial]

It is a level 4 apprenticeships but there is a possibility of a job offer at the end of the apprenticeship (they would like for you to stay as they invested so much in you)

[late flame]

Yeah freelancing->full time is so much harder than the other way around.

[summer roost]

note that the average pay in the UK for SWEs is considerably lower than the US average

[lean sundial]

Also do remember than UK has free healthcare and the pound is stronger than US so living expenses tend to be the same

[true harness]

grade point average

[near ocean]

Theres no way starting out an apprenticeship you'd earn 33k

[lean sundial]

But I do, you can google it

[near ocean]

23k sounds more like it
Google agrees

[lean sundial]

For Expedia Group?

[near ocean]

For anywhere

[ancient moon]

What do you think about game development?

[lean sundial]

I know people that got paid over 40k for apprenticeships such as in Meta

[late flame]

It doesn't seem crazy to me. But again I'm only speaking with no UK experience whatsoever.

[summer roost]

that's true, but US SWEs earn considerably more than UK SWEs even when considered as a percentage of median income. US SWEs can easily make 3x median income, UK SWEs make more like 1.5x

[lean sundial]

I can show you pictures of my office if you want

[late flame]

The hardest field with the worst pay and job security. Nothing but respect for the people that do it right, and I'm loving any company that realizes that crunch is bad actually.

[late flame]

And any of these jobs will provide full healthcare benefits anyways.

[summer roost]

it's also a very competitive field, on top of all that.

[lean sundial]

I forgot that is true, I do have private healthcare as one of my benefits

[gilded valley]

US SWEs storm home compared to anywhere except Switzerland when it comes to remuneration - by any metric you like

[late flame]

A bit anecdotal but I feel like it's easier to stay in once you've gotten some real experience in you. I think most people leave the industry after a year or two, but I could very easily be wrong about this.

[summer roost]

a) you probably shouldn't do that - your company probably has rules about that
b) It really doesn't matter much, I don't think you need to waste any effort convincing anyone of anything. The option you're suggesting isn't really available to people in the US, so it's really not relevant to this particular conversation

[lean sundial]

So what are you guys doing? In Uni? Or do you guys have jobs

[summer roost]

I've got a job as a senior software engineer with a bit over 15 years of experience

[late flame]

Senior engineer with about 10 years experience.

[lean sundial]

For one thing about software engineer, I don't really like it but I love some sectors/areas about it like experimentation

I would love to just go into teaching rather than coding

[late flame]

I feel like I've barely started. I think I understand what Kurosawa and Scorsese meant when they said that only at 80 did they start to feel like they understand how to make movies.

[buoyant seal]

i was offered senior rank with 5 times less time... but it does not matter 🙈 salary was not very senior there anyway.
it matters salary you get, rank is not important

[summer roost]

I look at "senior" not as rank per se, but as a set of job responsibilities. I'm not just "ranked higher" than non-senior engineers, I do different stuff than them.

My job involves a lot of teaching and mentoring others, being available to answer questions, managing projects and schedules, interfacing with stakeholders to refine requirements, etc. Those are all things that junior engineers don't do

[vapid jay]

The higher up the less coding there is it seems

[late flame]

Saying "no" to stakeholders is like 95% of being a senior engineer.

[summer roost]

Or better, "it would be very hard to do X but we could easily do Y, would that help?"

[true harness]

i don't have any meaningful experience, but of the various tracks i've seen this isn't necessarily true. the 2 main "tracks" are IC and managing. for both you still get more responsibility, but ICs are still coding a lot of the time

[summer roost]

Oh, and code reviews. Reading other people's proposed changes is a huge part of my job

[vapid jay]

Gotcha guess it really depends on the role

[modern ore]

@true harness have you done dropbox oa 🤔

[summer roost]

yes, I'd say so. There's a lot of different moving parts involved in delivering a software project that meets the business's needs. The more junior you are, the more likely you are to be given only very small things to code, which someone else spent a lot of time thinking about to make sure they were exactly the things which should be coded. The more senior you are, the more likely you are to be the one thinking about what stuff needs to be built, so that other people can build those small well defined pieces.

[late flame]

I stopped doing that because they always think Y is actually just X in disguise and then they wonder why the project doesn't have X.

[summer roost]

hah, oof.

[late flame]

Less coding but more thinking about code I'd say. I'm not coding when I'm writing a twenty page technical design doc but I'm sure as hell thinking about coding.

[late flame]

Mostly now I just say "You can't have X without pushing back the deadline by Y. We can add X afterwards since it's not as important as Z."

Setting expectations and priorities, basically.

[smoky quest]

"yes and" method

[vapid jay]

Does it feel intuitive at some point to make those decisions? I'm only a mid level, and I'm not sure if I'll feel ready for that even though I'd like to go the architect route.

[late flame]

You get it with experience. That also means that you start doing it with no experience, make mistakes, and then get better. I've gotten a lot better at underpromising now.

[summer roost]

as far as "the architect route" goes, I think the most important thing is just to have seen a lot of systems, and understand what worked and didn't work about each of them

[smoky quest]

you should discuss about it with your manager.
They can guide you and make sure you get stretched in the right direction as well as setup goals with you that make sense

[smoky quest]

you may also want to read the "Staff Engineer" book and "righting software"

[summer roost]

also, reliable systems are usually composed of the same well-understood building blocks. A lot of system design is just figuring out where to insert message queues and where to use RPC 😄

[vapid jay]

They definitely tried. I think having been in those tech lead meetings it felt like I couldn't answer most of those questions even though I've been working with the system we were talking about, but I'm just not thinking that way day to day.

[vapid jay]

I'll check those out. I want to think bigger.

[smoky quest]

• It takes time
• It's easy to ignore these problems when these aren't your problems

[late flame]

How I passed every architecture interview: "Have a load balancer put the message on the queues."

[vapid jay]

Got it. I'm definitely on the up in the dunning Krueger curve

[smoky quest]

• Don't worry, have fun
• Soak as much knowledge as you can
• If you are afraid or not confident, that's the best reason to go do it

[vapid jay]

Great advice. Will do!

[near ocean]

how many OAs do you do every week goddamn
you should list it as a hobby on your CV

[modern ore]

?

I just did duolingo and preppin for dropbox rn

[near ocean]

youre asking people if they've done assessments because presumably you've also done them

how do you even get OAs to do, when I apply to shit i get ghosted

[modern ore]

Nah I have never done design questions before so i was just curious if he did em

[modern ore]

resume gap?

[near ocean]

I've only done one design question and it was for the job i have now
i dont know how others do them

[modern ore]

Not sure if https://leetcode.com/problems/design-twitter/ will me for dropbox

[near ocean]

i dont think so but also i dont care enough to fix it rn

[modern ore]

wanted linkedin oa, ghosted 🛌

[near ocean]

mine was more of a casual discussion with one of the seniors

[modern ore]

i helped someone get past the OA tho 🤔

[modern ore]

Oh like for your design question? you told em how you would implement?

[near ocean]

yea but it was very over the top, it was a secret santa thingy

[modern ore]

the dropbox design question is convoluted and you have to past bunch of test cases, im scared 😥

[near ocean]

you gotta write code for it?

[true harness]

design OA sounds interesting

[near ocean]

i dont get the point

get design OA
pass it
job is just "code this, monkey"

[modern ore]

Yeah, and you have to get past the current level to get to the next one level. And from what I've heard it has like bunch of classes and you have to do it based on a certain design aswell.

[near ocean]

yea, pass

[modern ore]

😥 have 2 days to grind for it

[true harness]

ramp had one like that. it was interesting

[near ocean]

how many juniors do you know in these big companies that actually are allowed the freedom to do any "designing"

[true harness]

your OA isn't automatic ?

[near ocean]

are you even allowed the freedom to go piss at amazon?

[dense mesa]

No, source: friend who works there

[near ocean]

im not buying a piss jar for amazon

are these companies done with their layoffs?

[modern ore]

not suire

[late flame]

what is a design OA?

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, we give ours (and everywhere I’ve been) a ton of freedom. Their sphere of influence may be smaller but we don’t spell it out for them (unless they’re really stuck)

We alternate between learning tasks (like fix some bug) and development (implement something new). There’s just more supervision

[near ocean]

how often do they get to "design twitter"

[fringe sphinx]

Lol, rarely. But they do get fairly tough design problems…. We just end up handholding them through it tho.

[lusty spindle]

I want to do web scraping jobs, but I am concerned about ensuring my deliverables will work for a long time. How do people do these types of jobs knowing that the site may increase anti-scraping features which may make the code you wrote for your client no longer work. Do you always use a service that supports web proxies, or do you do different levels of "workarounds" depending on the job and client?

[smoky quest]

We don't help going against the terms of services

[gritty rivet]

Good reason not to do those jobs, but if you must, I would communicate to the customer that you cannot be responsible for such problems and would have to charge accordingly for any future work

[safe coral]

Hello @sour tartan Sorry for disturbing you but my question is does the college for grad school matters?

As a guy graduated from an ivy league college

[sour tartan]

i didn't go to grad school,

[safe coral]

lets assume its for undergrad

[sour tartan]

and when i graduated from college, things were very different than they are now.

[safe coral]

Im going back and forth between Uni of Mich and Berkeley @sour tartan

[lusty spindle]

Makes sense. I'm getting a sense of how people navigate those jobs. Many seemed odd and would require breaking scraping TOS. If it's the case that experts in web scraping end up choosing whether they will or won't break TOS then that makes sense. I assumed there was no special approach and that some people do break TOS.

[sour tartan]

(this is going to be painful discussion with a 16-second slowdown.....) Those are both fine schools, either will be great.

[safe coral]

Berkeley costs 80K but does it justify the tuition?

[lusty spindle]

Thanks and that makes sense.

[sour tartan]

I have no idea if the tuition is worth it. I don't know what my career would have been like without a Penn degree.

[safe coral]

Fun fact I live in Philadelphia

[lusty spindle]

Also double checking, you did mean the terms of service of the site someone would scrape right? If I just broke TOS in the discord I'll delete my thread since I wasn't aware.

[safe coral]

Whats your opinon? @peak halo You are into data science right?

[sour tartan]

i liked Philly. I was there for the MOVE incident, if you know it.

[safe coral]

Hmm I gotta check that out I have no clue what that is

I feel like Uni of Mich is great and costs relatively less at 34K compared to 80K in Berkeley

[peak halo]

You're asking if the university that you go to for grad school matters as it pertains to a career in data science? I'm inclined to say that the prestige of the university doesn't matter. I think it's probably more important that the program is relevant to your specific goals.

[safe coral]

for Applied Data Science Masters

Actually their cirriculum is almost the same. I couldnt find anything different

[peak halo]

applied data science? That puts up a red flag for me--why aren't they just calling it data science?

[safe coral]

Im not sure

Whether applied or not their program looks the same

https://www.si.umich.edu/programs/master-applied-data-science/curriculum. this is the curriculum of Uni of Michigan

[peak halo]

"data science" is a relatively new term, and it's pretty over-hyped. Before enrolling in one of those programs, I would look to see where graduates of the program are working, and what they're doing

[fringe sphinx]

I actually just had a conversation with a researcher this afternoon (big name university but not ivy/top tier), who was on their grad school admissions committee. His comment was the work you do in grad school tends to be more influential than the university itself: what you publish/etc. He agreed with my belief that, for undergrads, college ranking largely doesn’t matter except for a small handful of top schools. He also viewed masters as largely a money making enterprise for the universities.

[safe coral]

https://ischoolonline.berkeley.edu/data-science/curriculum/ this is Berkeley

Berkeley's curriculum seems dull compared to Uni of Michigan

[peak halo]

@safe coral BillyBobby raises a good point--do you want to do research and publish? You probably should want to

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, I like that curriculum. That seems like good stuff.

[safe coral]

Yeah I do!

which one? @fringe sphinx Uni of Mich or Berkeley?

[fringe sphinx]

Berkeley

[peak halo]

You might look to see if their research faculty work on things that you would be interested to work on.

[safe coral]

https://www.si.umich.edu/sites/default/files/inline-files/Employment report MADS 2022 K (7-21) no crops.pdf

What about Uni of Michigan? @fringe sphinx did you look theirs? Also Uni of Mich has a grad report from 2022

[peak halo]

The null hypothesis is that Berkeley is the most worthwhile program being considered--the hope is that a more affordable program would be as good.

[safe coral]

if you click that pdf you can see where grads are atm

[fringe sphinx]

Both curriculums look good to me, nothing surprising or weird. I’m a long time out of school, but they make sense to me.

[safe coral]

they are the same. Althought university of michigan seems to have more electives

[smoky quest]

We don't help navigating jobs that do require to do shady and shitty things.
The main advice you would get is to not do these shady and shitty things in the first place so you don't have these problems at all

[fringe sphinx]

You may be overthinking this (but for understandable reasons: it’s a life decision): they’re both excellent schools. If one is significantly cheaper, I’d take that one.

[smoky quest]

Berkeley is quite popular and pretty well positioned in the bay. That can give access to interesting internships or labs
Depends on what you want.

[fringe sphinx]

I believe we’re talking about a remote program, right?

[safe coral]

yeah!

[smoky quest]

oh nevermind then

[safe coral]

Also Berkeley doesnt have a data mining course 😦 I wanna learn data mining

[true harness]

it turns out, you don't need a course to learn things

[smoky quest]

that sounds rather restrictive

[safe coral]

https://www.ischool.berkeley.edu/courses/datasci

these are all the courses in Berkeley lol. They dont have many electives

[fringe sphinx]

Huh, I think of all of this as data ‘mining’. I’m not sure what a data mining course would entail that’s different than you get from the other analysis courses?

[near ocean]

what is a data mining course anyway? a link to BS4 docs?