career-advice

[vapid jay]

Thank you I will look into that!

[sleek egret]

yar

[lethal tartan]

Quick question
I’m a beginner who just started coding using Python and I read that if I wanted to get a job it would have to be in Backend development since python is made for that.. but I felt that backend is not my thing.. so do you guys recommend switching to Javascript ? Or I’m just not getting the bigger picture here

[buoyant seal]

Javascript is used for backend too in highly big amount, so, not really your statement changes a lot yet

[lethal tartan]

Thank you!

[sleek egret]

a professional programmer needs to know multiple programming languages

[fringe sphinx]

Also, there aren't just two types of development. "Backend" and "front end" are realllllly broad terms.

[sleek egret]

yeah, to echo @fringe sphinx, "frontend" just means "UI work". and "backend" thus is, "everything else"

which is ... well... a less than useful distinction. it's mostly made by people who focus on building the UI of web sites and what the UI talks to. they sort of ignore the 80% of code that has little to do with that 🙂

[sleek egret]

an alternative way to think of careers in software development is to think in terms of the problem domain. finance, aerospace, biotech, marketing, embedded systems, infrastructure management, etc, etc

so learn python. learn javascript. learn sql. learn html/css. and more.

[stiff dew]

any1 here?

I needed a small help with my code

[hearty island]

open a help channel, this is for careers

[stiff dew]

sry

[harsh river]

i'm sorry but no, it's a begginer level project, maybe if you expand your portfolio

[pastel thunder]

Today i learned its good to have law degree for "test engineers" roles

[restive latch]

anyone who needs assistance with python assignments?

[summer roost]

This is the #career-advice channel

[deft herald]

You can contribute to any of the threads in #1035199133436354600

[summer roost]

that just looks to me like someone was presented with a list of possible degrees, and they checked all the ones that they'd be willing to hire someone with

[pastel thunder]

what to do when HR calls after all round to discuss compensation?

[summer roost]

discuss compensation

[deft herald]

lol

[pastel thunder]

how to get maximum offer from you HR guys?????
Hr here, tell me how can i loot you

[deft herald]

maybe research salaries comparable to that job and come in with a good target expectation

[summer roost]

unless you have some sort of leverage, you're unlikely to be able to change their offer. If you're willing to walk away from the offer, you can tell them the amount that you'd be willing to take the job for, and then be prepared for the possibility that they say no. If you have another offer, you can usually play the two against each other - "I have a higher paying offer from another company, but I'm more interested in working for you. Is there any chance you can match $X?" or something

[pastel thunder]

some back story, i didnt apply they called me
they came to my campus drive but i didnt apply cuz i had an offer already,
they told me they offer some x per annum but i said thats low and i am expecting above y(because x was lower than my current offer) and they said it could be done.
now interview is done and went good (did no mistakes)

[deft herald]

I mean, i've definitely negotiated salaries without having competing offers

[pastel thunder]

I have some leverage 😀 , this time, i think

[summer roost]

Sure, but the more junior you are, the less likely they'll raise their offer. If it's a large company hiring junior engineers, they likely hire all juniors at more or less the same rate

researching the market and knowing whether you're being pitched an offer that's under, over, or at the market is definitely a good idea. But if they offer less than you're willing to work for, you can't do much about it other than say "no, but I'd do it for $X" (a bit more politely 😆)

[pastel thunder]

how do you do it? any literal phrases would be good

[summer roost]

what leverage do you have?

[pastel thunder]

this

[summer roost]

ah, I missed that message. Well, if you have another offer, you can definitely use that to anchor the comp conversation.

[deft herald]

This is an old email from me after getting an offer

Thank you so much for the offer and it means a lot that you guys want me on board. I did enjoy getting to know the team a bit and they seem like great people to work with. Unfortunately I will not be able to justify the $XXX number. This actually ends up being a significant pay cut and with an extended commute to <redacted> (I currently live in <redacted>), it just doesn't make sense for me and my family right now. If you are able to make the original <previous number i gave as a target> work, then I would be much more on board.

SO i mean it was very specific to my circumstances

But the point is i gave concrete reasons why I needed a higher number

[pastel thunder]

also when they first called i hadnt joined my this offer. But now i have joined.
But now my current actual job is completely different which i didnt expect before. (accepted 8 months before from campus hiring drive)
I dont wanna stay, and the TC is kinda just decent

[summer roost]

yeah, specific reasons are a must. Relocation, long commute, less flexible than current job, lower comp offer than current job, or lower than the market, or lower than another offer, etc... Worse benefits, too, maybe. Fewer vacation days can be a big one.

[deft herald]

Yeah worse benefits is definitely a factor. Fewer vacation days, 401k contribution match, HSA seed money, ESPP offering, stock and cash bonuses, review/pay raise schedule

[summer roost]

review/pay raise schedule is often easier to negotiate than pay or benefits, FWIW. Either negotiate for an accelerated review schedule or a guaranteed minimum raise in the first review

[pastel thunder]

i am a newbie, i dont even understand this stuff, just the stock, bonus, review, vacation, is all i know

[summer roost]

you can definitely use your current job's pay to anchor the conversation. It's reasonable to push for pay/benefits that's at least as high as what your current company gives

[near ocean]

Newbies probably dont have much leverage, suck it up for 10 months and then get a 50% raise or whatever

Unless youre talking about minmaxing a couple 1000 a year

[wise relic]

Hi everybody, I am just wanting to get started with coding and thought python would be a good idea. Anyone got an idea for an online course of something like that where I could learn it. I thought about web dev but I am not really sure what field interests me, any recommendations?

[fringe sphinx]

Start here, perhaps?

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[honest patio]

Hi

I was wondering how hard is it to make it in the tech world (such as software engineer)

[pine sleet]

Depends on a lot of factors such as educational background, previous work experience, etc..

[radiant moon]

harder than some things, easier than others.
Next question.

[peak halo]

I don't think it's generally more or less difficult than other technical jobs.

[honest patio]

Would you recommend me doing computer science in A-level?

[peak halo]

if you want to be a programmer of some kind, then yes.

[random rampart]

Hi

I'm a self-educated programmer, nice to meet ya

[true harness]

I think it's recommended to not do CS A-levels. cc @near ocean resident uker

[fringe sphinx]

What’s a level in us english?

[true harness]

from what i understand...there isn't really a comparable thing

[fringe sphinx]

(I thought it was HS, but didn’t know there were majors?)

[true harness]

it's not really a major, it's more like courses you can do, i think. so there's math, physics, etc. you would take 3 or 4 of them

[summer roost]

sort of like concentrations in college, but starting in high school instead.

[shy adder]

I think the most equivalent would be AP or CCP classes

[true harness]

what's a CCP class?

[shy adder]

College Credit Plus (may be specific to certain school districts). Basically local colleges will offer certain courses for high school students

[vapid jay]

Good day! I just finished several courses in Python and I'm learning back-end.. as soon as I finished, I'd like to start my first job as a programmer, but I have no experience.. what would be the best in this case?

I wouldn't be asking, but it's really difficult to know what to do

[true harness]

In terms of careers, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[shy adder]

Your best bet is to not get married to python, but instead use your knowledge from it to move into other languages. Sadly, there aren't a ton of python-specific jobs out there, but your python experience can help you in a lot of other applications. If you're set on python, machine learning (tensorflow) will probably be your best bet

Getting a CS degree can help get you past HR, but just making a good portfolio of personal projects on github/gitlab will also work well

[vapid jay]

You're totally right, it's the best choice overall.. but the thing is that I have no degree, on the other hand, I've been learning for about 6 months

[true harness]

why not go for a CS degree?

[vapid jay]

Oh, so you say python is a complement rather than a way to find work. Well, it makes sense, and I have no idea about Tensorflow. Is it related to how AIs process information?

[vapid jay]

I'm unable to study where I live

[true harness]

If you're set on python, machine learning (tensorflow) will probably be your best bet
i'm not sure if this is good advice. machine learning is probably impossible to break into without advanced degrees

[true harness]

what academic credentials do software developers where you live have?

[shy adder]

You think so? Hmm, maybe data processing would be a better direction to go

[peak halo]

People don't get jobs in ML because they "know tensorflow" or "know pytorch". They get them because they understand ML, regardless of implementation.

[shy adder]

That's fair

[peak halo]

(whenever people in #data-science-and-ml ask what libraries to learn for ML, I get slightly sad)

[vapid jay]

Most of the jobs are full stack, and require either a degree or at least a couple years of experience.. I'm from Venezuela tho

[near ocean]

This used to be the case when I did them, im not sure if they overhauled the curriculum nowadays to make it better
But yea basically we ignored CS alevel and did maths/physics/chem and even bio

[summer roost]

when you say "years of experience", I assume you mean professional experience, right? That is, they don't care how long you've been coding for, they care how long you've been getting paid to write code?

[river light]

I'm learning about np, scikit-learn, etc for machine learning. Should I use pytorch?

[vapid jay]

Yes, I assume it's since one has started formally to work as a programmer overall

[river light]

Should I learn pytorch and tensorflow, will it help me overall or should I stick with numpy and scikit learn

[random belfry]

Are the PCEP and PCAP worth taking if switching from networking to programming?

Answered in a sticky Lol

37 and feel like I am spinning my wheels. Can't seem to get a position in networking so I am switching to coding. Have the comptia A+ net+ and sec+.

Can't stomach a 4y degree. What is the best way to get some experience?

[summer roost]

what professional experience do you have? What education history?

[random belfry]

Other than certs, 10 years customer service and 2 years helpdesk exp

HS Diploma

[summer roost]

and what certs?

[random belfry]

CompTIA A+ Net+ and Security+

[summer roost]

you might find something like a CCNA helpful for breaking into networking...

[random belfry]

I found I dislike networking...

.

[summer roost]

hm. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like you have much in the way of relevant experience or relevant knowledge for a software development role. At least on paper, you're barely more qualified than a fresh high school graduate would be. You mentioned that you might be interested in a 2 year degree, if so you can look to getting an Associate Degree in Computer Science, perhaps. You could also look towards boot camps, for getting more practical skills and skipping much of the theory. I don't have any specific recommendations, but the best boot camps have relationships with businesses that help to create a smooth pipeline for graduates into jobs. (And the worst ones lie and say they do, and then offer you a job as an instructor at the end, pyramid scheme style...)

[dreamy spade]

Too expensive? Maybe they don't have parents to help them fund their tuition fees.

[random belfry]

Problem with boot camps is the upfront cost

[summer roost]

it's likely that the easiest area for you to break into will be web development. That's the part of the industry that has the most consistent need for relatively low skilled developers.

[near ocean]

Student loans are a thing, not like we had mommy and daddy pay uni off

[true harness]

CS degrees tend to have pretty good ROI even taking into account student loan debt. they are a good option for pretty much everyone

[pine sleet]

ROI?

[true harness]

return on investment

[pine sleet]

based

[random belfry]

Problem is that my credit is abysmal

[near ocean]

You dont need credit to take out student loans, do you? I certainly didnt have any credit as a random 17 year old

[true harness]

there's also scholarships and other need-based grants, especially at state schools

[summer roost]

for federal loans in the US, no, but for private loans, yes

[gritty rivet]

A bachelor's degree from WGU is cheaper than most bootcamps and can be done in a lot less than 4 years. Even an associates can be a lot better then nothing

If you can't get a job with your CompTIA trifecta... breaking in to development instead withour a degree is harder, not easier.

If you're not getting interviews, you may need feedback on your resume. If you're not getting offers after interviews, that's a different problem

[vapid jay]

well does not sound good to me, but this is fine . Can you help me with choosing a better project 😬 ?

Good Morning to all !

[undone lantern]

hi

i want to have ielts 8.0 score and become flight attendent

and then ill have 2 years of experience
and i can go go usa to work

but the problem is being flight attendent requires being handsome n im ugly

[peak halo]

@undone lantern I can't think of a way that being a flight attendant could possibly help one become a developer.

even if your situation is "I just need a job while I finish my education", the work schedules of flight attendants are incompatible with schooling.

(I know a flight attendant. it's like a whole lifestyle.)

[undone lantern]

i need to liv in usa

no ill go to usa and become flight attendent and earn moni first

and then ill have moni to study in universities in usa later

[peak halo]

how do you plan to obtain work eligibility?

[undone lantern]

ill have above 6.0 ielts n 2 years of flight attendent experience

flight attendent is one of the easiest thing to gib experience

sadly my face isnt eligibility

[peak halo]

it's not just about having work experience (and no one who hires developers will care that you spent any amount of time as a flight attendant). you also need to legally be allowed to work in the US.

[true harness]

why a flight attendant, exactly?

[undone lantern]

oh but ill work in us as flight attendent
n then ill have moni
ill work as flight attendent n us for a few years

[undone lantern]

bc it doesnt requires university graduation

[true harness]

plenty of jobs are far easier to attain than a flight attendant, and also don't require a degree

[undone lantern]

then it can be easier
sadly my face isnt eligibility

[undone lantern]

can u name some job that is easier than flight attendant?

[true harness]

mcdonalds cashier

[harsh river]

You have a very skewed view of life

[undone lantern]

in here we dont have mcdonald cashier

[peak halo]

just because it's "experience" doesn't mean that it's experience that makes any difference for the purpose of getting a job as a developer. but I'm not sure why we're even having a discussion about this plan of yours if you're convinced that you don't have a face for it.

Everyone tells me that I have a face for radio, but I've never had the courage to pursue that career.

[undone lantern]

i need 2 years ex in some job to work in us

[true harness]

if you're talking about for working as a software developer, it's not "2 years of any work experience", it must be relevant experience

[harsh river]

That’s not going to be enough for a US visa

[undone lantern]

its bc i dont have money, n i can work as flight attendant in usa for the whole decades be4 being developer in us

[undone lantern]

oh that not enough? google told me i only need 2 years

[celest kite]

You should meet KE and ask advice from them

[undone lantern]

whos KE?

is KE made in china?

[undone lantern]

lemme thonk
step 1: get 8.0 ielts and become flight attendent in vn
step 2: get 2 years of experience
step 3:go to usa and become flight attendent in usa
step 4: have money (alr 60 years old)
step 5: go study in IT university in us
step 6 : become developer in us

[harsh river]

the US requires way more than work experience when considering an US visa application

[undone lantern]

oh

[undone lantern]

how many enternity do they need for work experience?

[harsh river]

you will need money, and a good background in order to be considered for a visa.

[harsh river]

the US is very strict when it comes to inmigration visas

[undone lantern]

okay lets live with rem in robin's wall

@vital wyvern there is still enough spaces in his wall for me?

[harsh river]

I think rem lives in the US.... ||this is all offtopic though||

[undone lantern]

rem said she live in robin's wall

[harsh river]

rems a he.

[stiff skiff]

why is everyone trying to come to the US for work lol

[harsh river]

the american dream

[undone lantern]

bc my country too pooor
we have like 100$ per month

[stiff skiff]

job market is horrible here, how is it over in the countrys you guys live in?

[stiff skiff]

living in california is getting dangerous everyday, I can't believe there was so many homicides during 4th of july.

[undone lantern]

its fine

still not as dangerous as in vn where
truck drivers kill people who got accidents to reduce money they have to pay ( and many transporting company pay em to do that) our rules is like a dead person driver have to pay 50mil but a alive injured person like pay for highest quality of medicine etc... so it can up to over 1bil

[stiff skiff]

job market is horrible here too, everyone is laying off. I, myself am having a more difficult time getting an internship (i'm going into my 3rd year of college)

[undone lantern]

job market in here is definitely more horrible

in here study colleg is a waste of money . i cant cope up with it anymore

[harsh river]

sure, but people who live in third world country have a skewed view of the US, they think it's a perfect country

[undone lantern]

ill live in china then

china is very bad place but still better than vietnam

[stiff skiff]

true, but the way the US is going about its way it might even convert to a 3rd world country. Honestly I would rather live in Canada

[undone lantern]

it still have 3x higher salary and china inside products are good

[undone lantern]

china is good choice for me although i dont like china

china lost ppl bc of 1 child advocate

[harsh river]

this is all offtopic, this channel is career discussion

[stiff skiff]

are you located in SV?

[undone lantern]

china is destination so its not off topic

taiwan is good destination too

so as korea and japan and japan

japan is gud we have export cheap human work service to japan

if i work in japan i earn lots of money so do japan

embezzlement earn much money too

[peak halo]

this channel isn't for talking about food destinations.

[undone lantern]

good destination

[harsh river]

why do you say that?

[stiff skiff]

just asking

[harsh river]

i'm not but it's weird you ask

[native narwhal]

who can tell me what is the fastest way to get employed with python
is it
-AI or ML
-Backend dev(django flask) but here you also have to understand frontend(html css js) so this is not fast
-data analysis(but here you also have to know databases like SQL or else)

Please help

I know the word fast is relative on how good you get in what time frame but
the learning curve has to be different for this paths right?

I need someone with hands on knowledge to just give me this tip hint 🙂 please

[pine sleet]

Getting employed is a lot more than just what libraries or languages you know

Can you tell us more about educational background / previous work experience, etc?

[native narwhal]

5 years in marketing runing ads on all platforms, graphic design and a bit ov video editing
I also have set up multiple home networks so there is that i understand a bit of the OSI model and i have used linux for about 6 months just to try it out, i have actually the gear to do this
desktop pc 5600x
macbook pro m1
and a laptop with linux 😄

[floral arrow]

@native narwhal that quiet a much👍

[native narwhal]

what do you mean hehe

[floral arrow]

@native narwhal well I am a fresher so, I don't know anything your saying

@native narwhal but that's a long journey of yours

[native narwhal]

I'm happy to tell you more, what do you wanna know

well I am 34 years old I have been online since 1999

[floral arrow]

@native narwhal iam a under graduate final year student learning python

[native narwhal]

yeah but python is a language, what do you use it for is my question

[floral arrow]

@native narwhal that's what iam figuring out now

[native narwhal]

same, but after making tic-tac-toe and similar games and automations i still got no path to follow

[floral arrow]

@native narwhal I'm going to learn sql for data based jobs

[smoky quest]

IT's all about how much you stand out comparing to your competition. So to that end, different people would have an easier time depending on their profile and target role

[smoky quest]

This is like first semester exercises. There is a long way to go from there to be employment ready. And a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[native narwhal]

Well regarding that CS degree, apart from coding basics I do know quite a bit about computers and science 😄
I mean I have been building Desktops and replacing transistors in sound amplifiers and as I said I have already learned the osi model and have hands on experience with networking hardware and configuration

but this "CS" knowledge that I have doesn't help me to chose which of this:
-AI or ML
-Backend dev(django flask) but here you also have to understand frontend(html css js) so this is not fast
-data analysis(but here you also have to know databases like SQL or else)
paths is quickest way to a job in terms of demand for this paths etc

[smoky quest]

reading above that you are 34, I would probably suggest backend or even frontend.
AI/ML/DS would be easier with a masters degree

[native narwhal]

Thats right, I am thinking the same, the only thing that BUGS ME A LOT is that compared to a few years ago now all back-end roles require deep understanding of cloud services 😛

I mean I am doing my own research by reading on 100s of job requirements, it seems that all of them work with cloud 😄

[smoky quest]

yep. the cloud provides many benefits

[native narwhal]

Is being expensive one of the benefits?

[harsh river]

the more you scale the cheaper it is

[native narwhal]

I work as a marketing manager for a new software company atm
its a full blown web app with multiple paid API integrations, bunch of features

Its a TMS ( Transportation Management System) includes tracking, tracing of trucks, load-boards, dispatching functionalities, and a lot more than that

Its on AWS and we are still pre-revenue but the average monthly sub is $1000 and that would be cheaper than other TMSs

so with that kind of high ticket - low volume of users... have they made a wrong turn putting it up there on the cloud?
Yeah it loads super fast and AWS adds to that security but still

[harsh river]

depends on the profit to expenses ratio

[native narwhal]

It would be profitable with only 50 clients but the thing is that all trucking companies already use other TMSs and the ammount of effort it takes for them to switch is staggering

and if you are thinking lets just onboard new trucking companies NO they can also manage to haul freight with excel spreadsheets and paper notes... its not a real necesity

[smoky quest]

What would be the alternative in terms of:

• Hiring one or more people to manage the servers and services
• Having one or more colo for better resiliency
• Depreciating the hardware
• Managing the updates and regular maintenance of the system
• Dealing with the networking
• ...

[native narwhal]

okay so now you have proven why all back-end roles need me to learn cloud infrastructure 😄
good job 😛

[smoky quest]

note that the above does not include the scalability made available in clouds

[native narwhal]

yeah i get it, its many reasons why ALL of the job roles need cloud knowledge

[smoky quest]

yeah, there is a lot more to it and there is a reason it's so popular 😉

[native narwhal]

but isn't the cloud part of the job supposed to be done by a DevOps engineer?

I mean why the heck do I have to know that 😛

[smoky quest]

not really. devops is neither sysadmin/ops nor dev

note also that cloud is not about renting servers. There are many services and primitives built on top

[native narwhal]

god dammit, getting that role will be hard, but I think I might have to do it
this marketing stuff is getting really boring, saturated and no pay increase as in seniority

[magic aurora]

i was just trapped in an audit role 2 years that seemed impossible to get out of. you probably have a way cooler skillset than me, so i belive in you!

[native narwhal]

Please tell me more about that audit role though 😄

[magic aurora]

i just got a new job as a pentester. in a general sense, can anyone tell me what sort of scripting i could expect in this type of role?

[magic aurora]

NO YOU DONT WANT IT

[native narwhal]

Okay tell me what does it mean Audit role

[magic aurora]

it was risk management, so performing control tests to see if other teams and departments were performing their duties properly and following procedures. it was extremely boring and also tedious. it is a job filled with subjectivity yet at the same time everyone wants to see perfection. its an oxymoron of a job. also, the only tools i ever used was an internet browser and excel. you will hate yourself.

[floral topaz]

I’ve noticed a lot of entry level roles have requirements written like this, without specifying the required experience level for each thing:

“Requirements: C#, Azure, Powershell, SQL etc.”

Any idea how much is the assumed experience for something like this when they don’t specify? E.g. 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year?

[near ocean]

Generally you can answer technical questions regarding the technologies listed

Also they would probably list general required experience so if you've worked with php and js your entire career you probably wouldnt be called to interview here if they need experience with msft stack

[floral topaz]

E.g. I’m seeing a lot of vacancies a bit like this one:

“Software Engineer | Junior-Mid Level

Tech: • C# .Net, MVC, WebAPI, Sql Server, AngularJS/Angular

Ideally, but not vital: • .Net Core, Entity Framework, Cloud experience (Azure/AWS), Git repositories, API development, TDD/E2E Testing, Agile/SCRUM”

How feasible would it be to learn some of these skills in my spare time, while my current job is in finance?

Even a lot of the internships I’ve seen have relatively similar skill requirements

[fringe sphinx]

I tend to read it left to right in terms of significance (same way resumes should be written: most experience first), so this strikes me as a C# programming job using Azure services, requiring some familiarity with PowerShell and SQL.

[floral topaz]

Ah I didn’t know that, thanks

[fringe sphinx]

But, I don't know what to make of the second one you posted: "C# .Net, MVC, WebAPI, Sql Server, AngularJS/Angular". I guess I'd translate that again to a primarily C# development role, with some web (angular) and database components.

Also, given that "ideally" section, I saw this link posted by someone else in the community and really love it, as it touches on that type of stuff: https://missing.csail.mit.edu/

[floral topaz]

Might be good if I can find a job that involves a little bit of coding, so I can gradually get better at it over the next couple of years.

The requirements for purely tech related roles look way above my current experience level.

[near ocean]

Its a "fullstack" role where backend is msft stuff and frontend is angular for some reason 🤷

It could be a junior role or not, i dont see anything regarding exp

[fringe sphinx]

If you have a Finance background, why not pursue something that's finance adjacent?

[floral topaz]

Title just says “Software Engineer | Junior-Mid Level”

[near ocean]

Well there you have it 1-4/5 years experience roughly i would imagine

[floral topaz]

Yeah I should - just trying to find some

[near ocean]

Come to London, all the fintech jobs are dotnet related

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, I love London.

Wait, I do. that wasn't sarcasm.

[near ocean]

Thats what the skull is for

[fringe sphinx]

I don't speak millennial.

[near ocean]

You're the second person I've seen say that

The first one is a friend of mine from back home who moved here in london specifically, no job no housing, just to be in London

[fringe sphinx]

There are also a lot of unpublished jobs in finance: a lot of shops (hedge funds/etc) need finance minded data (python, jupyter, etc) folks and they're hard to find.

[lapis wind]

With a healthy dose of MS Excel

[hearty island]

"Dear Applicant,

Partners in Law reviewed your application in respect to our Project Assistant job on LinkedIn. Thank you for your interest, You will be a great fit as possess the qualities for this position. To schedule an interview and get more detailed about our hospitality, job description, what we offer and overview contact via email at:

Best Regards.
some guy"

who the fuck texts directly for a job???

it's defo a scam

[gritty rivet]

You applied for the job as stated? I wouldn't not send them the email just because they sent you a text

[hearty island]

strangely i don't remember ever applying for them. i can't even find them on linkedin

[gilded valley]

current company is pretty much dotnet free, last company was mostly off of it

[prisma otter]

Discussion about cyber security specialists?

[deft herald]

witty remark related to cyber security discussion

[gritty rivet]

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/information-security-analysts.htm

[rustic obsidian]

someone suggest me a simple roadmap for a career in AL and ML engineer and also for a Software Eng. in big companies

[weak kindle]

Can one learn python and other stuff from free sources and apply for jobs and will there be any chances to get selected (without any degree)?

[radiant moon]

sure, if you have something impressive to show the interviewers

[fringe sphinx]

What’s your current experience and education?

[tough rampart]

it Deepends if the job requires a degree or not

[weak kindle]

For real?

[rustic obsidian]

not much just started college and have knowledge in Java and little bit in python

[fringe sphinx]

What major?

[rustic obsidian]

sorry?? what

[fringe sphinx]

What subject in college?

[radiant moon]

sure, why not?

[rustic obsidian]

btech in AI and ML

[radiant moon]

now, your idea of "impressive" might be different from the interviewers', but ... 🤷

[weak kindle]

Hmm

[weak kindle]

Ppl i know they say it's hard without degree

[radiant moon]

could be. I have no degree and have gotten hired without trouble

[weak kindle]

Woah

[radiant moon]

'course I have been working as a programmer since before you were born, so that might have helped 🙂

[weak kindle]

Yeah......

[radiant moon]

if I were doing the hiring, I wouldn't require a degree. I'd instead require some indication of competence.

[weak kindle]

Anyways thanks for answering. I will get back to learn

[fringe sphinx]

Biotech is a little out of my experience (I was CS), so I’ll let someone else answer

[true harness]

how would you filter candidates before deciding to interview? though i guess, you could just lie about everything on your resume, so idk

[fringe sphinx]

I’ve hired many non degree candidates, but I’ll definitely say they had worse outcomes on average

[near ocean]

graduates or professionals?

[fringe sphinx]

The senior ones are great, I’m strictly speaking junior candidates

By non degree: I meant, those with no undergrad degree.

[peak halo]

Sorry, but this isn't a place to seek out opportunities like that

[vapid jay]

Sup y’all I got a project I had to do that was basically make a data base and pull queries

[summer roost]

a degree from an accredited institution is "some indication of competence". Not necessarily the strongest indicator, definitely only suitable as an initial rough filter, but when enough people pass that filter you don't necessarily need to cast a wider net.

[celest kite]

I've been... A bit disappointed by the accreditation system of late. I've seen candidates with degrees from accredited universities whos coursework didn't really match up with what I expected. Though perhaps it wasn't the university so much as the candidate not being honest of their resume.

[summer roost]

we've all seen candidates with degrees who definitely didn't deserve them, but I'm not sure how relevant that is. If, on average, candidates with degrees tend to be stronger than candidates without degrees, and enough candidates with degrees apply to a position that there's a good chance one of them will qualify for the job, the reviewers have a better chance of finding a hirable candidate quickly by considering only the candidates with degrees

I'm certainly not advocating for a policy of never hiring anyone unless they have a degree, but when two candidates appear about equally good but only one has a degree, it's a rational decision to choose to interview the one with the degree first, since it's one extra signal that they might be good

[weak kindle]

The one with degree get preference

[raven bramble]

What calculator should i get that will last me all 4 years of comp sci and comp eng? I had a ti84+ ce but it got stolen 😢

[weak kindle]

You being sad over A calculator

[raven bramble]

well yeah, i don't know if anyone would be happy about getting something worth $100+ stolen from them

[weak kindle]

[fringe sphinx]

I wouldn’t buy anything unless/until a course requires it. Your computer is all the calculator you’ll likely need. (But maybe someone younger than I thinks differently)

[jagged oak]

What about the potential of how well they might develop in regard to just having a degree but no real indicator of further possible growth?

I for example have two certificates ( Data Science Certificate from a well-known Institution and PCAP from the Python Institute )

Junior Data Scientist / Junior Python Developer as of now.

[summer roost]

If you've already got a job, the degree becomes less important over time. It still makes some difference, but much less than it makes for your first industry job

[jagged oak]

Have no job yet, on it atm and working on my bigger Software Projects in private.
Should I maybe show them my projects? Have worked on them for a couple months now.

And to be honest, I would love to get into robotics. I started a physics degree before, but ran out of money and had to focus on doing it by myself. But surely not a good indicator to drop out or to pause

[calm eagle]

can someone help me in understanding whether CS or software engineering degree would be better to become a software engineer

[true harness]

eh. if your prof says you can use a calculator they probably don't mean a whole laptop. a used ti-84 is good enough for college

[summer roost]

You'd probably need to compare the curricula. My school had both available, and they were quite similar. Where they differed, it was usually that the CS tended towards computing theory, and SE tended towards higher level concepts (queueing, design patterns, project management, etc). Both are good degrees for software engineers. SE is still less commonly offered than CS.

[pine sleet]

ti84 is just ol reliable yeah

[pastel thunder]

arent you able to share, i keep forgetting to bring it to exam even when i have one. just 5-6 calculator support 30 students

[summer roost]

Well, yeah - your competition for entry level jobs will mostly be people with degrees, so you'll need to have a comparatively better resume to make up for that shortfall relative to them. Bigger, more interesting, more polished projects is one way to achieve that.

[calm eagle]

alr thanks

[summer roost]

also, SE is less established, so the curriculum might not be as similar across schools as I'd expect a CS curriculum to be

[calm eagle]

is that in the UK as well

[summer roost]

I couldn't say, I'm not really familiar with UK unis

[calm eagle]

its alr ill see for myself

[summer roost]

we've got a few UK regulars here who might know more than me on that score

[calm eagle]

can you tell me their usernames

[summer roost]

@near ocean is one

I know we've got some others, but I can't remember who off the top of my head...

[true harness]

🍖 🥎

[summer roost]

Ah indeed, @harsh jolt might know this as well

[open cradle]

I did my engineering degree with the HP10s calculator. I think it was like 15€. Recommended. Summations are usually right

[open cradle]

I studied in the UK as well

[calm eagle]

do you know which is better to become a software engineer

CS degree or software engineering degree

[calm eagle]

thanks

[calm eagle]

lets say tho my main interest was starting a business after uni would CS be the better degree in this case??

[open cradle]

Well I do not have any of these two. From what I could see, Computer Science seemed a more active community. All the guys I met were from there. Also, whenever I search for a job, Computer Science is typically the topic I see more often. However, the software world is quite large and unless you have a more fixed scope, telling which one is "better" for software is hard to tell

It feels like answering: "Which one is better to eat? Fork or spoon?"

[calm eagle]

ok thanks this was helpful

[open cradle]

Oh sorry. I just saw this comment

I think it all depends on what kind of business again. Maybe the people that were previously mentioned have a better perspective

[calm eagle]

ok thanks anyways

[summer roost]

I'd think a business degree would likely be more helpful to you than either CS or SE if your main goal is to run a business that employs other people to do the work

[calm eagle]

really?

if i wanted to create a tech startup u think a business degree would be more helpful?

[summer roost]

CEO's don't do much coding even at startups. Maybe they do when the company has 3 or 4 employees, but certainly not when it's got 20 or 100...

[calm eagle]

fair enough

[summer roost]

they'll spend most of their time devising strategy and wrangling investors

[open cradle]

And without a degree, how do you know what possibilities and needs there exists in the tech market? I feel like sometimes you need a deep understanding to create a successful idea

[summer roost]

I'm not sure that's true. I suppose it would be interesting to look up the founders of tech companies that you think have succeeded, and see what degree they had when they founded the company

[open cradle]

That's right as well. I said my previous comment because I can see a big bubble of crypto guys "joining" the AI bubble and in the end the only thing they end up doing is using chatgpt API calls. Because they mainly lack the tech based knowledge

[calm eagle]

im pretty sure most had some sort of engineering degree or CS and econ/finance

its alr im going to do some more research myself, thanks for the help tho 👍

[unreal turtle]

its been 5 days since i asked my referrer to refer me again, should i follow up with her?

[open cradle]

The typical profile I see is people having a tech based degree and then, after 3-5 years at least, studying an MBA. I have no idea how useful they might be now, as everybody seems to have one

[fringe sphinx]

A lot of cs majors don’t become/stay as SWEs.

But, of the SWE track folks, many do a ms in cs.

I also see a lot of mba’s, but they’re not applying for SWE positions

[hearty island]

my bad, that was not for #career-advice

[harsh jolt]

@calm eagle I'm an Engineer myself, so don't really have direct experience but both my kids are maths grads and they are both now devs professionally.
I don't think it matters much. If you do any kind of STEM degree, you'll do some CS stuff and it's up to you how far you take that.
Decent employers know that recent grads know nothing whatever degree they hold!

[magic aurora]

i just got a new job as a pentester. in a general sense, can anyone tell me what sort of scripting i could expect in this type of role?

[summer roost]

isn't that a question for the people who have hired you? They're the ones who can tell you what your particular job duties will be

[magic aurora]

just wanted to network with other people who had experience like this that werent at my company. thats all

[summer roost]

fair enough, but there doesn't tend to be much uniformity across jobs in terms of required skills or job duties

[amber garnet]

do u need to go to the college to get a job?

[harsh river]

for STEM fields, a college degree is preferred

[amber garnet]

why?

[unreal turtle]

its been 5 days since i asked my referrer to refer me again, should i follow up with her?

[pine sleet]

#career-advice message

[summer roost]

more than 70% of professional software developers have some sort of college degree. You will be putting yourself at a disadvantage if you don't have one.

I expect that for junior roles, it's even higher than that.

[fringe sphinx]

Because companies prefer not to train people from scratch. And degrees are a useful sieve

[calm eagle]

ok thanks for the advice

[magic aurora]

ive heard it shows determination and the ability to commit to large responsibilities, not so much the merit or "knowledge" that comes with education

but also people have been turned down at my old role for not having relevant education, even if they had a degree

it just all depends i guess

[slender tiger]

Hey quick question. When a job asks for proof of prior work experience. Will they ask for paper work or just reference numbers?

[magic aurora]

my main concern is that i also have zero scripting experience and absolutely hate impostor syndrome lol

[sweet gorge]

Are W3Schools certificates worth anything for getting a job?

[harsh river]

it's both

[summer roost]

they wouldn't have hired you if they didn't think you'd be able to do the job

[harsh river]

nope.

[fringe sphinx]

Everything is hard until you learn it

[magic aurora]

to my knowledge, once they get contact info (whether from you or a background check) they simply confirm "hey, has this person worked here? yes? cool. bye"

unless they had access to references of old managers and such

[harsh jolt]

They're not worth anything for anything

[gritty rivet]

Depends on the company and maybe on the country. If it's not clear, ask them. Here in the US they more typically ask for a reference who they email or call

[fringe sphinx]

Most companies have a ‘verify only’ policy, due to fear of lawsuits

[harsh jolt]

This varies massively around the world and also from company to company. I've written enough references in my time to know that some take it very seriously.

[fringe sphinx]

In other words, they’ll confirm employment and nothing more (speaking USA)

[slender tiger]

Thanks guys🙏 yea was very curious

[magic aurora]

does this typically include role description/titles?

[summer roost]

for software jobs, no (titles don't confer any information, and "role description" tends to be a very involved question that your prior company is unlikely to have any interest in going into)

[magic aurora]

does that not make it easy for others to lie on their resume? 💀

[delicate bane]

"i just do what im told" haha jk maybe

[summer roost]

the old company might tell their official job title for you, but it's not a red flag if the title someone wrote on their resume doesn't match their company's official title. I guess it would if the title is "Software Developer Intern" and they listed it on their resume as "Principal Engineer", or something, but "ML Engineer" vs "Software Engineer" vs "Software Developer" vs "Programmer" etc is all irrelevant

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of professional software developers wouldn't be able to tell you what the company's official job title for them is

[magic aurora]

i know people have done it, but i wonder if completely fluffing a resume just to get ahead of the competition is super common. ive lost out on many opportunities i even felt like i was overqualified for. but idk lol

[summer roost]

it tends to be pretty easy to figure out when someone's resume is grossly exaggerated, and for most companies, discovering that someone has lied on their resume automatically means they won't get hired

[delicate bane]

have you been having issues getting interviews? maybe your resume is the issue then

[magic aurora]

i think my issue is that my resume is TOO honest lol. it probably makes me look weak lmao. but i got a new role, so no worries

[summer roost]

ah. Well, that's not great either... The way I see it, a resume is a sort of advertisement. It's a flyer advertising your services. Just like any other form of advertising, you want to talk your product up - you want to do a good job of selling yourself, highlighting strengths, downplaying weaknesses, etc. But also like other forms of advertising, lies aren't OK.

[delicate bane]

thats good, nice. and hmm you probably have valuable experience if youve worked previously and you probably just need to tailor it to the roles you are looking for

[magic aurora]

that makes sense, but also, how do i "tailor" myself without lying? where is the line drawn? I want to seem attractive for my dream roles, but its hard to advertise myself when i dont have relevant experience (im always looking for security/threat intel roles with IT/networking experience)

[summer roost]

the line is drawn in the same place as it would be for any other type of advertising. Claiming you can do something that you can't, or have done something that you haven't, isn't OK, but it's fine to only mention things that you do well, or breeze over things that you're less comfortable with

you're supposed to make yourself look good, not by lying but by highlighting the aspects of yourself that the person reading your resume will find most flattering and most beneficial to the role

[delicate bane]

if you are us-based, cybersec, from my understanding, is a field where certs (CompTIA, etc.) actually benefit you in this case

i have this bookmark saved and it may be helpful https://www.cyberseek.org/certifications.html

[magic aurora]

thanks you two. i hope to learn as much as i can in my new role. i will remember this advice and leverage it next time i go job hunting ♥

[delicate bane]

good luck and congrats in your new role!

[magic aurora]

thanks! i start monday!

[hollow oracle]

Oh I think this the wrong chat to ask this in

[celest kite]

Probably the wrong channel at minimum

[somber cipher]

Hey guys do frontend devs get paided per project?

[celest kite]

But fwiw you'll probably want to offer this as a webpage so people don't just rip off the source code

[celest kite]

Not typically.

[somber cipher]

Soo how does it work like they make the site then what? Sure you can make some improvements buut like what else is there?

[true harness]

fixing things that break

[celest kite]

Well sure a company may hire some contractors to initially build the front end; but usually they'll keep a frontend dev or two on staff to maintain it

Corporates like to rebrand every couple years changing logos/color schemes/etc. There's always frontend work to be done.

[smoky quest]

there is always some improvements, some things to add, tweak, fix, etc.

[smoky quest]

that's how you know they got a new CMO

[somber cipher]

So then you just get paided to stay and occasionally fix sum stuff and make sum small touches?

And every few years change it?

[smoky quest]

it changes all the time.
There is no downtime. Otherwise the frontend engineer would not have been hired

[somber cipher]

Hmm okay ty

[hearty island]

it ain't just me that thinks this is sus asf?

[somber cipher]

I saw sum like this today prob a scam or wum

[true harness]

personal assistant does not sound like what you want

[hearty island]

it's not i was like wtf is this

[delicate bane]

trustworthy with a great sense of humour
💀

[hearty island]

i googled it they're from canada? i never applied to a role in canada

[delicate bane]

scams getting more scammy

what was the sender email

[hearty island]

[e-mail]

[delicate bane]

they were so close to the actual email but still wrong lmao

[hearty island]

they can rightly fuck off

[delicate bane]

yeah job app scams are pretty predatory

[hearty island]

inb4 they somehow hack my emial

[smoky quest]

if it sounds to good to be true, it is too good to be true

[hearty island]

defo

[floral topaz]

Which part?

[summer roost]

literally every part

[steel leaf]

Sounds a bit fanciful to me, like some crook has gone and cooked it up.

[fringe sphinx]

This sounds like one of those scams where they somehow trick you into wiring money or cashing a check

https://www.bbb.org/article/tips/12261-bbb-tip-employment-scams

[steel leaf]

I myself haven't dealt with this before, so I wouldn't know. Would it be possible for them to attempt to steal a password? A fake login screen for something familiar, perhaps?

[fringe sphinx]

Read the bbb link, it’s lower tech than that

[steel leaf]

Very well sir.

Very interesting, sir. It is lower tech, but better than what I suggested anyhow.

[dreamy spade]

May I please get recommendations for work laptop backpacks?

[pine sleet]

it really doesn't matter, just a backpack

[smoky quest]

As long as it's not controversial or would give you weird look, you will be fine

[dreamy spade]

Well I will need a backpack with a laptop compartment so my lunch doesn't get in the way when it's inside my backpack

[pine sleet]

yeah a lot of backpacks have a laptop pocket
you can go to pretty much any office supplies store like staples or walmart and you'll find a bunch for good price

[true harness]

have you considered using a lunch box? they are able to persist food items at temperature while also providing some degree of abstraction and encapsulation.

[pine sleet]

object oriented lunchbox

[unreal turtle]

Is it possible to get fired from internships?

[pine sleet]

probably

[lone zinc]

hello guys, I have amazing news for each human on the globe!!!!!

[pine sleet]

let's hear it

[lone zinc]

I am the best programmer in earth and I am available for hiring, isn't that amazing???!!!!

[pine sleet]

We don't allow recruitment here, so no

[lone zinc]

that's so bad news, you are missing on the equivalent of Shakira in terms of programming

[pine sleet]

it is how it is

[unreal turtle]

How?

[summer roost]

I know someone who got fired from one for repeatedly being caught sleeping at their desk 🤷‍♂️

[pine sleet]

probably many of the same things that would get you fired from a regular job, like harassing another employee

[lone zinc]

murder could also get you fired, so be aware

[smoky quest]

yes

[summer roost]

that honestly seems like a very weird question. I can't imagine how someone might think that a company is obligated to continue employing you no matter what you do

[unreal turtle]

How?

[unreal turtle]

It’s not a real job though, I thought since students are doing work experience they will let things slide since they’re now entering the industry and learning about it. Things like getting fired will take away from the learning stage, idk

[summer roost]

you can get expelled from a school, too

[pine sleet]

you're not going to get away with assaulting another employer just because you're an intern

Unless you mean like, firing in terms of blowing up the prod DB or something

[smoky quest]

You would probably find yourself locked out of all your accounts, potentially escorted out and have some meetings with your manager and/or HR

[pine sleet]

there is probably a little more leeway in terms of mistakes but that can vary a lot

[unreal turtle]

No not that, im just saying fired in terms of quality of work

[unreal turtle]

Ye

[smoky quest]

sure that can happen

[unreal turtle]

No way especially for big companies?

[smoky quest]

why not?

[pine sleet]

Yeah it can happen but again, varies from company to company and scale
You probably won't get fired if you push a bug to prod by accident but if it's like a consistent thing you might

[summer roost]

it's quite unlikely an intern would get fired for poor work. It's not impossible, but it's not likely as long as you're trying, and didn't blatantly lie about your skills during the interviews

[unreal turtle]

Wow these companies are strict

[pine sleet]

honestly just... don't worry about it and try your hardest and you'll be fine

[unreal turtle]

This sounds more believable

[delicate bane]

heh expectations for interns are usually set pretty low anyways

[summer roost]

yeah. But it's possible to get fired for poor performance, of course. Like just not doing your assigned work. Or repeatedly making the same expensive mistake.

[smoky quest]

It's more likely they would just be parked aside and not given anything interesting. But being fired is always an option

[fringe sphinx]

IMO, you’d really have to do more than be ‘bad’ from a quality of output perspective to get fired from an internship. We have such low expectations from an intern to begin with. (Agreeing with recursive_error)

[fringe sphinx]

Big companies are the most hesitant to fire people, due to legal concerns.

[unreal turtle]

My work is actually affecting the company?

[unreal turtle]

So less likely?

[summer roost]

everyone has said that it's unlikely but possible.

[fringe sphinx]

Is there some story here you haven’t told us? How bad did you screw up?

[unreal turtle]

Im just wondering

[smoky quest]

sounds more than an idle thought though

[pine sleet]

Are you sure about that /s

[summer roost]

the easiest ways to get fired as an intern are just breaking policies. Sneaking guests into the office, sleeping at your desk, drinking or doing drugs on company property, harassing other employees, stealing, etc. It's possible to get fired for poor performance, but it's more likely for willful insubordination, or refusal to even attempt the work that's assigned to you, etc. Companies won't usually fire interns for "just" poor performance, but it can happen if their poor performance is poor in a way that's hurting others or making the team need to fix expensive mistakes

[unreal turtle]

I haven’t even started interning yet, so yes bro

[summer roost]

you probably won't get fired even if you cause a production outage - but if you cause the same outage twice by doing the same wrong thing twice, maybe...

[pine sleet]

Just teasin ya 😛

[smoky quest]

an intern should not be in a position to cause an outage in the first place

And if they do, it means they had the trust and support from their mentor

[summer roost]

sure, I agree, and more people than just the intern are to blame if an intern can manage to cause an outage, let alone twice. But plenty of companies have terrible ops, and I'm sure there's plenty of interns who could cause an outage if they did something wrong enough.

[smoky quest]

Sure. And regardless of what they did, that would still be the responsibility of their manager/mentor.
Whether it's done in practice depends on how healthy is the place

[dense fiber]

the word 'had' make me shudder

[robust island]

My boss gave me admin ssh creds to the development site, but little did I know it was also the production site... I thankfully have yet to break anything, although I used Jetbrains' remote development tools, which, evidently, take up a lot of server resources. I feel like if I do break something, it'd be more the fault of my employer for giving me too much power, but fingers crossed nothing bad happens lol

[patent willow]

physical and social job is ---- ---

[open cradle]

Being a DJ or Formula 1 driver

[patent willow]

only dans

[gritty rivet]

Jobs that nobody on this server would know anything about 🤣

Interest in social jobs is captured the the RAISEC/ Holland inventory so you can find lots of lists of those: https://www.ziprecruiter.com/blog/best-careers-social-holland-code/

[dreamy spade]

Thoughts on this laptop backpack for work?

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B09C5C87RL?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_35D078X21HRQG424ZG9D_2

I keep seeing college laptop backpacks. I need to see work laptop backpacks.

[dreamy spade]

No I have not

[vital wyvern]

I throw my laptop in a cheap Puma bag So long as your laptop fits in the laptop sleeve, I don't think you need something particularly expensive or fetch.
It's a backpack.

[near ocean]

backpacks arent really on topic for the channel, just pick one out that fits your laptop and thats the end of it

[old vessel]

Hyy

[celest kite]

Here's my recommendation

https://www.gucci.com/us/en/pr/men/bags-for-men/backpacks-for-men/ophidia-gg-medium-backpack-p-598140HUHAT8564

[true harness]

a must have for today's software engineers. i can't imagine doing my job without it

[wanton birch]

Anyone here familiar with the recruitment agency Lancesoft? I saw some adverts by them but when I looked them up on google, a lot of the reviews are claiming them to be some type of scummy and scammy and spammy organisation.

[hearty island]

omg 2.5K for a backpack? jesus christ

[buoyant seal]

as one white male living alone, highly recommending buying serious cool tourist backpack.
Super good friend to carry groceries from shop too.
Get something bulky 😆 to fit everything

[gritty rivet]

You don't get that kind of reputation for zero reason, but no, haven't heard of it.

[brave matrix]

Are certifications helpful for finding more jobs?

[true harness]

depends on cert and job

[brave matrix]

I'm working as a Data Engineer, but I want to find better oppurtunities, mainly in other countries abroad, which I will be at a disadvantage compared to other candidates because everybody prefers a local candidate, unless the alternative is very good...

the question is if getting a few certifications will actually help or its just some bs that isnt regarded highly (like most courses on Udemy and Udacity, nobody really cares)

I was thinking either the IBM or Google Data Engineer certification, or more cloud certs from AWS, GCP, or Azure.
what do you think?

[open cradle]

I have emigrated a few times and never got any of these. Only the udemy ones 🥹

[smoky quest]

If you have the opportunity, I would recommend a degree so that you can qualify more easily for immigration and become these local candidates :p

[brave matrix]

to be clear I dont need a visa for work since I have EU citizenship

[open cradle]

I think in general anything that can be of any value is welcomed. Either working in big open source projects, certificates...

In the end is about something that makes you different from the crowd

[brave matrix]

not anything of value is welcomed, you really have to be the in the top 5% of the candidates to get the offer

[open cradle]

It also depends on the type of job as well. For example, for testing roles I have seen that they often ask for a specific certificate. Not for other types of roles for example

Do you have any specific country in mind?

[daring sphinx]

I'm between jobs and it seems like a good time to contribute to open source projects, so I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions. I'm a mid-level programmer, strongest in Python. I have a weird speciality in extracting data, particularly from XML and HTML, but I've got time at the moment and learning a new area sounds rewarding.

I've contributed to a couple of NREL repos. https://github.com/NREL/mappymatch

[fringe sphinx]

https://docs.github.com/en/get-started/exploring-projects-on-github/finding-ways-to-contribute-to-open-source-on-github

I'd start there, and find a project that interests you.

[daring sphinx]

Thank you. I'd also be open to suggestions on projects that people here personally find interesting.

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe something with a little name recognition, and look for a "good first issue".

[fringe sphinx]

Tough to say, but maybe go down this list: edit: This list I mean: https://github.com/EvanLi/Github-Ranking/blob/master/Top100/Python.md

Like, if I really wanted to bolster my resume for data engineering, the big one out there is Pandas. It's not easy to contribute to this level of project, but there are 81 "good first issues" open https://github.com/pandas-dev/pandas/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A"good+first+issue" . And see https://github.com/pandas-dev/pandas/issues/49275 for information for new contributors.

[daring sphinx]

That's a good suggestion, thank you.

I'm also not laser-targeting building my resume, because I always find I learn more from doing some oddball thing that I found fun, which winds up being useful later on.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, me too. I prefer working on things I know nothing about.

[daring sphinx]

I've used pandas, so I'm not going in totally blind, but I'll check out those first issues.

[silver jacinth]

microsoft

you can contribute to their projects and it should be recognized moreso than others.

after all, all their new stuff for windows is under open sourced repos

[heady wyvern]

I havent began my cs studies yet

going into senior year of high school and I registered for AP computer science A

im just blindly going into it though I have code.org experience from middle school its been a while i need some tips and advice

[fringe sphinx]

AP CS is still taught in Java, as far as I know.

[heady wyvern]

is that bad or good

[fringe sphinx]

Just a fact, not good or bad.

[pine sleet]

I just recently graduated HS so I can probably provide decent advice here - you don't really need experience for APCSA, it's targeted towards people with pretty much no prior CS knowledge. And yeah it's still Java

[heady wyvern]

is java outdated?

[pine sleet]

Not really, don't get into the mindset of worrying about the language
The soft skills you pick up are also very important. Learn how to learn, most importantly

[heady wyvern]

Should I also take a math? Im signed up for pre-cal

[pine sleet]

It's optional for you?

[heady wyvern]

yes

[fringe sphinx]

I agree with Robin. Java is still very relevant, but Python is (gradually) replacing it as the intro language at the University level. I think AP board will be moving to Python in next few years.

[pine sleet]

Go for it. I took pre-calculus and a more advanced version of APCSA (I thought it'd be too easy) junior year. I pretty much never use the "hard skill" stuff they taught us in there. I probably will also never do Java

I mean, I'm (hopefully) never going to implement Dijkstra's algorithm from scratch in Java again, but I will have to think critically and problem-solve, that's the important bit

[fringe sphinx]

Most college curriculums for freshman year CS is: Intro to Programming (equivalent to AP CS), followed by a DSA course, plus Calc 1 and Calc 2.

[heady wyvern]

whats intro to programming in HS and how is it different from AP CS?

[silver jacinth]

Our cs is basically projects every week

[fringe sphinx]

And, if you don't have pre-calc, then you'll end up having to add an extra pre-calc in college (or summer).

[pine sleet]

Hard to say if it's not a standardized curriculum like AP, but it's probably just what it says on the tin :3

[silver jacinth]

We don't need it

Only algebra for CS and linear. That's about it

It's either algebra or calculus you could take

[fringe sphinx]

For US universtiesi that I'm familiar with: most of the U's require a math placement test and proficiency in calc 1 pre calc before taking calc 1. But, Universities are certainly different in different places.

[silver jacinth]

However I did precal in highschool and hated it

[silver jacinth]

Cal 1 is not pre cal

Pre cal is just derivatives, limits and all that

[pine sleet]

That's in the AB curriculum

[silver jacinth]

Also that tangent of a line. That's all I remember, we had our physics teacher teach it so we learnt extra stuff too

[pine sleet]

And from what I gather AB is pretty much just Calc 1

[silver jacinth]

Chemistry was fun though

[fringe sphinx]

What country are you in?

[heady wyvern]

if I go to CC then transfer to a 4 year I wouldnt be at an disadvantage from people who just head straight to 4 year universities pursuing a CS degree?

[fringe sphinx]

And what country are you?

[silver jacinth]

I was in IB though, we had to write essays in everything. Math, chemistry, physics, history, English...

[heady wyvern]

US

[fringe sphinx]

Depends on the CC program: look at the curriculum map of the major universities near you and make sure to mirror their curriculum as much as possible.

Calc, intro to CS and DSA are generally fairly transferrable (in my limited knowledge).

[heady wyvern]

^

[silver jacinth]

Computer science is just easy in general, you don't need a degree to learn the stuff I learnt

[fringe sphinx]

I think Robin already answerd that: HS programs are not very standardized, so no idea what your schools intro to programming would be.

[pine sleet]

I would probably take APCSA if you're able just because it will probably transfer as college credits

[fringe sphinx]

I can talk with some degree of confidence about AP, Intro to Programming, DSA, Calc 1 and 2 because these are fairly standardized across the US system.

[heady wyvern]

So when it comes to getting a job for the first time how do I know which field to get into

I think software engineering is the position im looking into it pays really good

[pine sleet]

You will probably know at that point
While you're in university do internships if you can, explore what stuff is out there and see what interests you

You can lean on that experience when you're deciding what field you want to get a job in

[fringe sphinx]

^ there are many different types of software engineers.

[silver jacinth]

It's at 100% job employment vs 160% other fields have right now.

Programming isn't in demand right now per say

https://www.calcalistech.com/ctechnews/article/hj4wn7nv2

[heady wyvern]

i think it will become very nessessary in 20 years, i feel like from 2000 it started til now, it will probably start to really boom in the coming years

Is AI a field in computer science? its really mainstream now

[pine sleet]

This isn't necessarily indicative of the job market in the US, is it?

[fringe sphinx]

That's a very misleading statistic. How many SWEs are there in Israel to begin with?

It is true that hiring has slowed, and junior candidates are feeling the crunch. But, this is a reflection of the market and FAANG layoffs causing a blip. It's not (IMO) a systemic shift.

[heady wyvern]

^

[fringe sphinx]

Yes, see the Fields here, of which AI is one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science#Fields

[heady wyvern]

How is Information Technology and Computer science related?

[fringe sphinx]

IT, loosely, is concerned with operating software systems. For example, your HS has an IT department which keeps the schools network, computers, data, backups, grading systems, scheduling systems, etc.

CS is a very broad umbrella, but talking software engineering (and ignoring the broader theoretical CS domain): is concerned with the creation of software systems.

So, think of it as SWE's create. IT deploys and operates. Perhaps an over simplification.

[heady wyvern]

With a CS bachelors I can get a job for either major?

[fringe sphinx]

Yes.

[heady wyvern]

IT doesnt have its own degree right

[pine sleet]

It probably does but I don't think it's as mainstream or as established as CS

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, many schools have a IT degree... for example: https://www.umb.edu/academics/csm/computer_science/ug/it_bs

I've also seen management degrees with a IT minor.

[pine sleet]

As opposed to the College of Engineering? that's interesting

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I've seen all types, but I agree, it's not as standardized / mainstream

[pine sleet]

Or maybe it's just my uni where the college of engineering deals with CS and IT

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, the big state schools (ie: umass) sometimes do things differently, being so big.

[pine sleet]

ah that would explain it. our uni is quite big

[heady wyvern]

Will learning Java help me learn python faster?

[pine sleet]

In general knowing any language will help you pick up the next one faster

[fringe sphinx]

If you're doubting whether to take AP CS and pre-calc: I think Robin and I are saying the same thing, 100%: definitely take both if you want to major in CS. You'll have a much easier freshman year.

[pine sleet]

Or even AP Calc AB, if you can (it isn't that much harder than pre-calc)

[heady wyvern]

In college pre-cal is required for graduation right?

[fringe sphinx]

For CS? You'll need calc 1 and 2, and maybe 3 (or Linear, depending on school).

And, you won't take calc 1 without pre-calc.

[heady wyvern]

Ok, so taking computer science in college requires you to take math classes at the same time?

[fringe sphinx]

What? I'm just saying: in college, you need to take certain classes. In CS, I think just about every school requires you to complete calc 1, calc 2, and more math classes before graduation.

There's a sequence.

[heady wyvern]

Ok so when I major in CS, how many periods are there during college?

6 periods for me right now in High school

[fringe sphinx]

Here's an example from a community college: https://massbayedunew.s3.amazonaws.com/curriculum-sheets/Science-Technology-Engineering-Mathematics/degree/Curriculum-Sheet-STEM-Computer-Science-AS.pdf

[pine sleet]

AWS

[heady wyvern]

in college its a trimester?

[summer roost]

college doesn't have "periods" like high school does. That's not how it's structured. You'll have classes at different times of day, and it's up to you how you spend your time between classes.

[heady wyvern]

ohhhh

[summer roost]

some colleges have a trimester system, most have a semester system, assuming you're in the US

[pine sleet]

I recently picked my schedule (a few weeks ago) and it was definetely a shock how it's structured - my days are scheduled really wacko haha

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, you'll start figuring out how to game the system later... like, trying to get a free Friday 🙂

[heady wyvern]

I like go to school as early as possible, do they let you choose your schedule?

[summer roost]

I went out of my way to schedule courses on only 3 or 4 days out of the week whenever possible

[summer roost]

yes, though you have more flexibility in later years than earlier years.

[heady wyvern]

In college how many days a week do you have a to attend your courses?

[fringe sphinx]

All depends on the schedule you get. And the particular school structure. I know a school that runs 7 week courses with classes that meet daily.

[summer roost]

that's up to you. Normally 5, but you may be able to do fewer if you're trying to take longer to graduate, or if you're willing to put in very long hours on some days in order to get other days off.

[true harness]

this is such a good thing to do. last semester i had a day off and it was sooooooooooo nice. can get caught up on stuff, relax, schedule interviews..

[pine sleet]

lol i have like 1 class on tuesday for half an hour

[summer roost]

oof.

[true harness]

a thing that's often recommended is to pack your classes close to each other temporally, so you have a single chunk of classes. the theory is that 1-2 hours between classes is just wasted time, so you want to minimize that

[pine sleet]

why is that?

[summer roost]

you're on campus during that time, outside of your normal space, so you can't effectively use it for relaxation, or even studying

[heady wyvern]

When I go to college I was thinking of biking but I dont know if theyll let me bring my bike inside the building to leave it

[true harness]

get a bike lock. they should have locking places

[pine sleet]

couldn't you go back to your room in that time?

[silver jacinth]

Well didn't several agencies in the USA and such state programming will decline 10% by 2031

[heady wyvern]

bike theft is common here so i wont do that

[summer roost]

maybe. Depends how far from campus your room is. After my freshman year I lived at least 20 minutes off campus every year, so 40 minutes round trip eats up a lot of a 1 or 2 hour break.

[silver jacinth]

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/computer-programmers.htm

[fringe sphinx]

Did you read the entire thing? - What does it say about software developer positions?

[pine sleet]

Mine is probably a 5 minute walk from campus so I could probably be back and forth a lot 👀

[heady wyvern]

is there no passing periods?

[summer roost]

that's just because they've got a separate page for software developers. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm

[fringe sphinx]

government job position codes are so weird anyway.

[summer roost]

demand for software developers is going up and computer programmers is going down, even though they're the same job, because people are migrating from one job title to another for the same duties.

[fringe sphinx]

Also, the "computer programmer" only has 174k positions in 2021.

[summer roost]

right. Because we've largely moved away from that title already.

[fringe sphinx]

having filled out many an H1-B, these codes are a hot mess.

[true harness]

same here. for me personally, it was hard to focus up between classes /shrug

[heady wyvern]

When employers do background checks, how does it work?

[silver jacinth]

When I was in retail we called your previous workplace to see if they know you

Also criminal record checks

Then there's credit history, not really important

[heady wyvern]

Ok I was looking into IT jobs from homeland security and was curious what they check

[silver jacinth]

I got a profile view from someone at homeland last week on LinkedIn lol

[fringe sphinx]

Government background checks are different than employer background checks.

[silver jacinth]

Even though I'm in Canada

[fringe sphinx]

Especially if there's clearance involved. I don't know about homeland security, but DoD is a bit more involved.

[true harness]

there's a bunch of people here with TS i think. @vital wyvern come hither

[vital wyvern]

Secret =/= TS, and Canada operates differently.

[summer roost]

the person asking about Homeland Security is from the US, not Canada, I think.

[peak halo]

those with security clearances may not want that status of theirs oft-repeated

[true harness]

that does make sense. i will just hint at their existence next time 👀

[heady wyvern]

whats the difference between (GS 9-13) and (GS 15). Highlighted in green

[fringe sphinx]

GS-# are pay scales. Higher = more money

[heady wyvern]

ohhh

[fringe sphinx]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Schedule_(US_civil_service_pay_scale)

[heady wyvern]

Will a higher pay scale require a better degree? Or can work experience make up for it?

[fringe sphinx]

No idea, that's certainly position dependent.

[heady wyvern]

Any computer science job titles that pay more than 200k?

[summer roost]

lots of software engineers make more than that.

[heady wyvern]

after how many years

[summer roost]

🤷‍♂️ some people make that much right after college, some people never make that much in their careers

[heady wyvern]

To make that much location matters right?

[summer roost]

location, company, and skill level all matter

lots of people at tech or finance companies make that much pretty quickly. Lots of people doing web development never make that much.

[heady wyvern]

I am close to tech giants like amazon, microsoft. I will come back here to ask about apprenticeships or internships sometime in the future. Thanks for answering my questions.

[silver jacinth]

Don't chase money from jobs

[balmy spade]

Humorously I've always been given lower offers from "tech giants" compared to smaller companies. Milage varies, obviously.

[silver jacinth]

You will always make more money if you know how to invest and finance

[peak halo]

"tech giants" hire tons of developers. they can't pay top dollar to all of them.

[silver jacinth]

Also we'll probably see ubi in the next 10 years

Money doesn't matter

[balmy spade]

That would be nice. I won't hold my breath though.

Well, that's a very truncated and limited statement.

[silver jacinth]

What are your views on it

[balmy spade]

Nothing so simple that I can summarize it in a channel about careers. Enough to say that money matters rather significantly to those that do not have enough to live. It does not carry the same weight to everyone.

[summer roost]

the more money you have, the less benefit an increase in money gives

for someone who makes $20k, it would be life changing to make $40k. For someone who makes $120k, it would be hardly any different to make $140k.

[balmy spade]

I can personally vouch for the altering experience of going from 23.6k USD a year to 50K USD.

[silver jacinth]

If you have a house and have 100,000 you can easily make 24k a year just off option spreads

[summer roost]

or lose way more!

[balmy spade]

Imagine not only having a house but also an extra 100k.

[silver jacinth]

You do know you'll only lose at most 75%

That's if you're stupid. I can make 2% a month

[summer roost]

it's not on topic for this channel, so let's drop it.

[silver jacinth]

Well it's related to careers. Just don't chase money

Regardless of your financial position, prioritize your health first.

[summer roost]

options trading is definitely not on topic for a conversation about careers in computing

[silver jacinth]

r/Algotrading begs to differ

Anyways my point was money isn't at all important in career searching

200k from a job is an unreal expectation and you're just getting paid to work more. You could instead get 75k and live a much more enjoyable life

I just notice this server is moreso of everyone will achieve everything they want and will work out. Setting unreal expectations will just diminish actually finding a stable and good job

[fringe sphinx]

Not sure how you came to that conclusion: when it came to salary, the answer was, more or less: your mileage may vary... come to your own conclusions. Most of the advice here is around how to maximize your opportunities through proper preparation: education, projects, resume, etc.

Not looking to argue, I just think we're fairly realistic there.

[silver jacinth]

Definitely seems like wishing and wanting jobs out of their reach. I'm in a lot of financial servers and most people with sub 6 figure jobs are happy to retire with a pension and 401k after sticking with a company.

I've yet to see a similar thing in this server

[fringe sphinx]

No idea where that's coming from here, but 🤷

[summer roost]

I think you're assuming that $200k salaries are out of reach for most people, but they're not that uncommon.

[silver jacinth]

It's about promoting the idea that everyone is destined for the top paying job, removing the actual stable jobs from the discussion. I've seen it for weeks here and left the server because of it, it's very bad mentally for those people as they'll more often than not set unreal expectations for employers.

[fringe sphinx]

Nobody is promoting that one way or another. That said, I don't disagree that we don't discourage it either.

[silver jacinth]

It's pretty abundant in the server

[summer roost]

Plenty of people here have sub 6 figure jobs and are happy with them, but when people ask for career advice, they're generally asking for how to have the best possible career (where "best" is based on a combination of factors that would generally factor in work/life balance, compensation, working with people they like and doing things they like, etc).
So, yeah: when people ask for career advice, we generally try to steer them in the direction of the jobs with higher pay, more interesting work, and better work/life balance.

[fringe sphinx]

Sure, there's a lot of wishful thinking, but the OP in this thread didn't ask us our opinion on salary expectations, so we didn't give it either.

[summer roost]

if anything, I tried to ground them by pointing out that many SWEs never make that much in their entire career.

[silver jacinth]

Well, I'm just saying this is why there's 289 positions for 1 role junior jobs. Of that 289, maybe 70 actually hold that experience

[delicate bane]

pretty sure that would occur anyways regardless of whats said in this channel

[true harness]

it's probably true that high salary draws a lot of people to SWE

[delicate bane]

its very competitive out there, yes

[delicate bane]

also probably the work/life balance (compared to various other jobs)

[silver jacinth]

Yes, but this is for people starting out and never actually coded a project before outside of school. You're wasting your time applying for those roles out of reach.

[true harness]

hm? 200k is a reasonable junior TC in some locations

[delicate bane]

bay area

[silver jacinth]

Unreal expectation

This is what I mean

Then you guys act confused when someone points this stuff out, or you disagree with

[summer roost]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "expectation"?

[balmy spade]

Is this a "they should wait until they are ready" take?

[fringe sphinx]

I think we've somewhat beaten this subject dead, good night folks. We can agree to disagree.

[true harness]

it's unreal for the median software dev, sure, but that's because the median software dev does not live in the bay area. for those that live there, it's perfectly reasonable

[silver jacinth]

I guarantee you companies aren't paying that for juniors and you made up that number

[true harness]

well, ok

[summer roost]

no, you're wrong. Some companies (not many, but some) do pay that much for juniors.

[silver jacinth]

And how many of those positions exist

If I was an employer, I'll only pay juniors 50-70k

[summer roost]

hundreds, maybe low thousands across the US

[true harness]

in the bay area ?

[silver jacinth]

Sure

[summer roost]

you just wouldn't have any candidates, then. 🤷‍♂️

[silver jacinth]

Nah, I saw a indeed post for a android developer 2 years experience in my province for 18$ cad an hour

Guess how many applications were in there

[true harness]

that isn't applicable, unless your province is the bay area (or similarly high cost). actually even then, it's still not applicable

[summer roost]

the situation is quite different in Canada than the US in general. Pay is quite a lot lower in general, and it's quite a lot easier to survive on low pay (due to better social safety nets and less wealth inequality)

[silver jacinth]

Housing costs 1200$ for rent on average

So that 18$ an hour position had 56 job applications, 2 roles and would be the same pay as a grocery worker

People would still apply regardless

If they knew what their skills are valued, would they apply there?

[true harness]

but were there jobs paying substantially higher for the same role? if you're paying the market rate, it makes sense you would have applicants. if you're paying substantially lower, you would not, except desperate people

[undone lantern]

uh wrong channel thats why it has so much slowmode

[balmy spade]

It's not really part of the current conversation or on topic.

[silver jacinth]

Canada pays 2x less on average than a USA programming job. ML developers here would make 92k instead of the 140k in the USA

[undone lantern]

sorry i was wrong channel

[silver jacinth]

Anyways, I notice this server is less aware of how economy ties into jobs. If you wanna work for a corporation over a lottery ticket, go ahead. But then when it doesn't work out, you'll set those unreal expectations for jobs you wish but will never achieve. Until you end up taking whatever you can get.

Instead of that you should seek out a job you have a passion and know you'll get accepted.

[summer roost]

if your point is "the overwhelming majority of software engineers won't make $200k for their first position after uni", that's certainly true - but no one here has claimed otherwise. The $200k jobs are maybe the top 25% of jobs, and most people won't luck into one of those as their first job.

[silver jacinth]

What I'm saying is this server sets very unreal expectations and hypes up people rather than being realistic

[balmy spade]

Given the emphasis this server has on school over diving into the job market.... I'm not sure they hype people up with unrealistic ideas. As one small example.

[fringe sphinx]

(ok not in bed yet): I disagree, I haven't seen anyone "hype people up".

[silver jacinth]

A person without a degree and experience will almost never land a junior role at a high salary and will have a high chance at being refused for instance. They should instead build up a portfolio

[summer roost]

they should instead get a degree...

[fringe sphinx]

Since the beginning of this thread, you've thrown a bunch of questionable stats and assertions. Can you clarify something: What's your level of experience in the field?

[silver jacinth]

I am a student, final year of college

[fringe sphinx]

(that came across very negatively, I'm just tired, I'm just not understanding your negative slant here))

[balmy spade]

Seems like, at least in part, you agree with what this server generally promotes here. Neat.

[fringe sphinx]

For what it's worth, I'm in small tech. US. Northeast. Engineering manager for decades. I couldn't hire a college cs major for under $75k usd.

[silver jacinth]

But that's due to population limits

[summer roost]

I'm not sure what you mean by that...

[silver jacinth]

New grads in the field vs vacancies

[summer roost]

there's plenty of new grads, that's not why

[true harness]

wouldn't that put downward pressure on salary?

[summer roost]

there are parts of the country where nearly every software engineer makes more than $100k, and there are parts of the country where nearly every software engineer makes less than $100k. It's driven mostly by cost of living, and partly by what industries are big in that place (more profitable industries can pay more for talent)

[silver jacinth]

More graduates means you can lower salaries since you'll save more money. There'll also be more competition and if there's less roles available that also creates competition. If all the salaries in a region were fixed at 60k, another company can push it lower and hire more at that

[fringe sphinx]

Like the housing market, somehow, salaries never seem to go down.

[true harness]

it's like a ratchet, companies don't want to push salaries lower, instead they just fire people

[heady wyvern]

I live in seattle, I would expect to make 200k, atleast i hope I do in the future

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, I definitely would pay my engineers less if I could get away with it 😉

[silver jacinth]

See

[heady wyvern]

well from what ive seen and heard software engineers make 100-200k

[true harness]

i mean, they live in seattle... if it was someone in like..idk kansas saying that, then it would be unreal

[silver jacinth]

Anyways its happening in Canada if you wanna check it out. It's stupid

[balmy spade]

"it" what? I feel like I missed something here.

[silver jacinth]

The whole thing I mentioned

We got too many grads for positions and wages are dropping

[fringe sphinx]

Correlation, not causation. There was a massive series of big tech layoffs at the beginning of this year. Not because of too many grads.

[balmy spade]

Well, bit early to call one year a trend but we'll see! https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/14-28-0001/2020001/article/00006-eng.htm

[silver jacinth]

Canada statistics released the job data and we do have more graduates than available jobs for those roles

Not as bad as china hopefully in the future

[fringe sphinx]

Related to that, there's a dampening of upper end salaries related to this. But: there's been a large backlog of hiring in many tech companies. The smaller companies are taking up the slack.

[fringe sphinx]

I found that stat very suspect. Citation?

[heady wyvern]

are software engineer salaries expected to rise or decline in the coming years, i know layoffs have been happening but im curious what anyone thinks

[balmy spade]

As a general trend the numbers continue to go up.

[silver jacinth]

There's also this happening too due to rising cost of living

[summer roost]

https://blog.appacademy.io/software-engineer-salary/ might help to anchor this conversation with some facts.

there's a section about half way through the page talking about average developer salaries in different cities.

[silver jacinth]

Most jobs aren't remote though

[summer roost]

yes, of course

if you want to be fully remote, you should expect a pretty significant pay cut for the privilege, honestly

[fringe sphinx]

The layoffs were not due to lower demand, but because companies were freaking out at the beginning of this year thinking a recession or market crash was coming.

[heady wyvern]

ohh

[silver jacinth]

Is this your facts too?

Luckily, coding bootcamps (like ours) create the fastest track from coding newbie to full-fledged software engineer. With every graduating cohort, the talent gap closes marginally, but the need will continue to grow as new industries find ways to implement tech stacks into their services, products, and offerings.

[summer roost]

nah, I have no particular affinity for that boot camp

[silver jacinth]

Did you even read it

[summer roost]

I just googled for the first thing that gave a breakdown of average developer salary in different cities

that's the part of the data that's interesting.

[true harness]

BLS does have that: https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm

[summer roost]

if you'd prefer a different source, maybe you'd like https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries

[silver jacinth]

Well, I would assume if they're preaching their platform it's not reliable

[summer roost]

I wouldn't assume so.

the second link I gave has higher numbers, despite no advertising. 🤷‍♂️

[silver jacinth]

Average salary scales based off high earners diluting lower earners

[balmy spade]

159k average at Salesforce?! Those underselling dorks. xD

[true harness]

it does break it down by YOE

[silver jacinth]

You could have less people with 300k salaries messing with people at 60k

[summer roost]

I'm not sure whether their data is based on the mean or the median, but they won't be very far apart, honestly.

[silver jacinth]

Well it's software engineers in general

[summer roost]

the median software engineer salary across the entire US is $120k, per BLS statistics

[silver jacinth]

Same thing

[fringe sphinx]

All I can say is that those of us here who work in the industry will agree that: we regularly hire people at 100k+. Junior engineers at 75k+. Many engineers, at least in the USA, make 200k+. And yes, there are certainly many software jobs in the sub 75k space. But, high paying jobs are one of the big reasons people are (rightly) attracted to SWE.

[summer roost]

I'm just not sure what point you're trying to make. The BLS statistics say that fully half of all software engineers make $120k or more. These numbers aren't unachievable.

[fringe sphinx]

It is certainly achievable, yet, nonetheless, nobody here is promising or encouraging unrealistic expectaitons. We're stating our experience.

[summer roost]

and the point I was making is that this varies a lot by city. Largely driven by cost of living, and partly driven by industry, there are places where the median pay is much higher than the national average, and places where the median pay is much lower than the national average.

[fringe sphinx]

It's also a far easier way to make $$ (if you enjoy it) than most other high $$ jobs. I'd hate to be a lawyer or doctor.

[balmy spade]

I had a roomie for a bit who is a doctor. They loved the work (not so much the paperwork). Different folks different strokes.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, and they'd probably hate our field!

[heady wyvern]

I heard being a doctor is so stressful

I like the remote work that software engineering has to offer, but I think companies are starting to make employees head back to the office now?

[summer roost]

remote work is a pretty small minority of all software jobs, yeah. It's more common now than it was before the pandemic, but it's still far from the norm.

[balmy spade]

I would like to see it trend closer to the norm but time will tell.

[summer roost]

my guess is that it will over time, but definitely not nearly as suddenly as people thought it might a few years back.

[heady wyvern]

you can make 93k for an internship?

[summer roost]

don't tell @silver jacinth 😛

Seattle is one of the cities with higher than average pay for software developers

[heady wyvern]

so when i go to college, i've been told to look out for internships. How do internships work?

[pine sleet]

You will generally apply to them like regular jobs, and if you're accepted you will usually work under a mentor/supervisor and possibly alongside some other interns

[summer roost]

they're jobs offered specifically to students, with the goal of helping them build useful experience, and attracting more candidates for junior level full-time positions at that company.

[heady wyvern]

and this would last throughout your college years, building experience?

[summer roost]

no, they're time limited, and usually done during breaks in your college schedule.

[pine sleet]

Not necessarily
Some last for a full year, some are in the summer only (I think most are like this)

[summer roost]

they're normally 12 or 18 or 24 weeks.

[balmy spade]

Interns at the company I work with usually get 3 months of work. They join a team aligned with what they are interested in. Their overall responsibiliy is limited (no you don't push to prod despite the memes) but they still get their hands into the daily work.

[heady wyvern]

Then after the internship is finished... do I find another one for income?

[summer roost]

you should try to, yeah. You could get one per year.

[balmy spade]

There's always the chance you get extended an offer, though I don't know how common that is. My internship was far from "normal" considering I was far from a student. haha

[summer roost]

Lots of students have part time non-software jobs during the school year, too.

[heady wyvern]

the pay is really good though, they will pay you $93-120k over the course of 3 months or so?

considering the internship is up to 24 weeks

[summer roost]

no, that's annualized pay

you'd get 1/4th of that for working 3 months

[heady wyvern]

then when its over, the manager just lays you off?

[summer roost]

it's not "laying you off" - you agree to work for a certain amount of time. Your contract expires at the end of that term.

both parties go into an internship knowing how long it's going to last.

[heady wyvern]

Ok so thats how it works

[heady wyvern]

Would it be afterschool?

[summer roost]

no, it's normally during breaks - like your summer break, or maybe your winter break (though that's usually shorter)

[balmy spade]

While in an internship it's super beneficial to network as well. Grab contacts, keep in touch even loosely with them. Having done an internship for a company is a boost to applying again for a full-time position if the opportunity presents itself.

[summer roost]

some schools offer what's called a co-op program, which includes internships as a required part of the program. My university had a 5-year program, with 3 mandatory 6-month internships included.

[heady wyvern]

Do you guys have college debt

its the number one thing im worried about

[balmy spade]

I don't. I have friends that do. It's worth keeping tight control on.

[robust island]

Was it because of scholarships, or did you just budget well?

[balmy spade]

I'm not a great example. I didn't go to school.

[robust island]

Oh

[balmy spade]

eh. I didn't go to school with the idea of graduating with a degree. I have a few classes from about 20 years ago that a FASFA grant paid for.

[summer roost]

I paid off my college debt in under 10 years

[balmy spade]

From my friend's experience I've learned that every scholarship and grant lead you can chase down is worth the time. (and there are so many of them)

[robust island]

My main concern is less getting it and more of keeping the needed GPA for all 4 years so I don't lose them

[heady wyvern]

How is maintaining a 3.0+ GPA in high school different from maintaining a 3.0+ GPA in college?

[summer roost]

college is harder than high school

[heady wyvern]

Im planning to take advantage of Seattle Promise (2 years of free tuition for CC) then transfer into a 4 year. Though one requirements were to maintain a 3.0+ to qualify for the free tuition when transfering at the 4 year (university of washington)

[robust island]

Try taking some ap classes if you can to get a taste of the course load

[heady wyvern]

yep AP CS

[robust island]

Although it's likely that the year you take for an ap class in hs would really be a semester in college, so it'd be less time

[heady wyvern]

putting it that way makes me worried, makes me realize the consequence of not staying on top of your work

[fringe sphinx]

Not to freak you out. https://admissionsly.com/college-dropout-rates/#:~:text=The overall college dropout rate,28 countries in OECD studies.

[balmy spade]

When you have time, you can make just about anything work. When the deadline is tomorrow, you get what you get. That applies to everything.

[fringe sphinx]

College is much harder than high school. Not because the material is harder, but because you need to be more disciplined and put far more time in than you ever have before. Nobody is handholding you.

[peak halo]

The upside of college/university is that you aren't forced to spend full-time hours "at school". You'll typically only spend 15 hours a week "in class" (at lectures or in labs)

[heady wyvern]

Yeah junior year of HS was already pretty hard especially chemistry B

[robust island]

But for every hour you spend in class, you should spend 2 studying (I've heard anyway)

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, so imagine the same class, but with less structure. You have a choice: study or go hang out. Nobody cares if you fail.

[peak halo]

Sure, but you can do that whenever or wherever you want. Whereas in high school, you have to sit through eight hours of state babysitting every day.

[robust island]

True

[peak halo]

I actually think the time commitments that get forced on kids and teens is unethical. A full work day, plus however many hours of homework, plus one or more extracurriculars, is too much.

[fringe sphinx]

In HS? Agree, but the worst part is it’s poor preparation for college

[peak halo]

(and the extracurriculars are nominally voluntary, but at least when I was growing up, we were sold that we have to do extracurriculars to get into college to not end up in poverty)

[balmy spade]

If I had a dollar for every time I got that song and dance growing up I'd have a few dollars, at least.

[robust island]

Yeah I've noticed the schools I've been in really push going to college, although imo whether you go or not depends entirely on what you want to do with your life

[peak halo]

I was sold the "get a degree in your passion" narrative, but I think that's finally being abandoned

[fringe sphinx]

Of the HS kids I know, they all want to major in “business”

(With few exceptions)

[heady wyvern]

Im doing a bit of crypto and learning about it

[robust island]

The college I'm looking at has a cool program with cs major and business minor, I might go for that

[peak halo]

Why?

[heady wyvern]

You earn money faster than stocks.

[balmy spade]

You lose it faster too.

[peak halo]

Sure, in the same way that being an early investor in a Ponzi scheme earns money faster than stocks

[heady wyvern]

yep, the first memecoin i invested in I made $700 in 3 days, a crypto pump happened, i held thinking it was going to go higher and eventually lost all

[robust island]

This isn't really the channel

[balmy spade]

smh, the fact that this is stated with such commonality is just boggling to me. "a crypto pump happened" is almost as natural as "the sun rose in the morning".

[heady wyvern]

Me majoring in CS will probably give me a good salary job in the future. After that I need to figure out whats next.

[robust island]

Make a bucket list of things you wanna do when you have the money and time

[heady wyvern]

Well I plan on investing it, probably is one the best ways to become a multi-millionaire. Once you become a millionaire, it will be easier to make more

[balmy spade]

Small suggestion to an otherwise great idea. Make a bucket list of things you wanna do and then make time to do them.

[robust island]

I meant outside of making more money lol

[heady wyvern]

Thats all my questions answered for today, thanks guys. Goodnight

[harsh ore]

Hey guys i got a couple of questions, i have basically been learning python for a year and a half , ive learned automations , got very good knowledge of API’s and webscraping , i know html and css , just a bit about javascript and also i learned a bit about SQL what do you think would be the best thing to continue learning and are those skills that i currently have needed to land a job, also what else should i learn to be able to land a job , and what would be the best career path to continue with this knowledge that i have, thank you 🙂

[summer roost]

What prior career experience do you have? What's your education history?

[harsh ore]

Well since im still kinda young(20) i dont really have that much experience, ive made projects for some small business owners here and there, after a while i thought about learning front end also so yeah i also made 2 websites for 2 business owners, i mostly learned about automation and handling API’s etc since thats what i was enjoying the most, after that i took 3 cisco courses and got 2 IT certifications and one Cybersecurity certification, about education i decided to drop out after first year of college since i was making a decent income from my irl job(yeah its dumb should have not done that) and yeah thats basically it , now that its been some decent time that ive been coding i am looking to learn more so i can land a job 🙂

[summer roost]

just to set expectations: more than 70% of professional software developers have a degree. Trying to break into the industry without a degree is a less common, harder path. That said, you're on the right path if you've already found people who are willing to pay you to write code for them. Web development does tend to be the easiest area to break into without a degree. Certifications won't help you much for software development jobs, projects and a portfolio will help some, but the more work you've been paid to do, the easier your path will be.

And i'd be remiss if I didn't say: you're still very young, and going to college is still a totally reasonable path for you that would lead to better and more interesting jobs being available to you a decade or so down the line.

[harsh ore]

Yeah i know man tbh every one can land a front end job but im not that much of a “designer” so thats why im trying to focus more in python, and about the degree its way harder to get a job without one so maybe ill consider going back to college after i take care of some stuff, by the way i appreciate that you answered and i wanna ask one more question , what would be the best career path for me i honestly love working with automation web scraping API’s etc but im always down to learn new stuff and i would love some orientation advice.

[summer roost]

There's not a lot of professional web scraping. As far as career paths, I'm not sure how much I can say - everyone's is different. My career has entirely been as a backend developer on Unix systems, predominantly in C++ and Python with a smattering of other languages. I find web development totally uninteresting, especially frontend development. I find databases and distributed systems more interesting, and I find stuff that needs to scale very well very interesting. My current job is mostly making tools and libraries for other developers to use.

[harsh ore]

Oh damn , i read a bit about automation jobs and stuff but this “work experience 3-5, 5-10 years” honestly is kinda crazy, kinda makes you wonder where will you be in life since technology is advancing every day more and more , especially with AI and stuff, and im ngl your job sounds fun, if you dont mind me asking for how long have you been doing this job?

[summer roost]

I've been a full time professional developer for about 15 years, in my current role for about 4

[harsh ore]

Oh damnn

Hopefully one day i might be able to say the same

Thanks for the response man, ive had that stuff in my mind for quite a while and you cleared some stuff up for me, appreciate it

[summer roost]

good luck!

[iron shadow]

I am confused on the risks and efficiency of the skillset I'm trying to learn for my future which currently is to be a full stack developer. I'm currently 16 years old and wanna utilize my time on learning a skillset that would benefit me in the future, but when working on web development I always get stuck on questions like "Is this all really worth learning if there are already website-building platforms that do things way more efficiently". Point is as years go by technology will just improve and I believe that web building platforms will get more efficient and easier compared to coding everything yourself, it already kind of is with websites like wordpress that are apparently good at custom-websites too. all of which might reduce the scope for the usage of the skillset i wanna learn

[summer roost]

This seems a lot like asking whether it's worth learning to cook when frozen dinners and canned foods exist. The tools can handle simple and common cases fine, but can't handle more complex and interesting things at all. If all you're doing is simple cookie cutter stuff, the tools will eat your lunch, but there will be plenty of jobs doing more unique stuff for a long time.

WordPress has been around for a very long time, and still every big company hires web developers. And there's plenty more interesting things to code out in the world than websites, too.

[iron shadow]

I get what you're saying but is it not a likely scenario for those tools to improve and do most if not all the things a web developer could do

[vapid jay]

not too qualified to awnser this as im not a web developer but i personally think web devs are very capable of creating more sophisticated things and just more interesting things with their ability and i don't think web building platforms could do that like for example web tools that are used for a certain purpose

idk maybe i got this wrong but this is my 2 cents

[summer roost]

It's extremely unlikely, honestly. Most of what developers do all day long is translating requirements given by non technical people into code that accomplishes their goals. It's incredibly unlikely that anything comes along any time soon that eliminates that job, I think.

[iron shadow]

I agree with you but this is all very present-tense whereas im probably overthinking or overestimating the power of upcoming technology

[vapid jay]

oh yeah i totally get that you know technology grows but so do we just gotta adapt

[iron shadow]

i sure hope so

[vapid jay]

always gotta be thinking solving problems adapting and learning technology aint slowing down

[silk socket]

You are 16, I started at 14. A few years later..: I currently work full-time for a tech company and mainly on Web Apps and REST APIs / general back end development in python, full-time. What I did was to just have fun and to try to build some interesting projects (you learn best trying to do what you love and building something your own) I started with javascript, html and css... I had no idea python or java even existed but I first built projects that were interesting to me, then I moved to something a bit more complex and I started adding those projects to my resume, I did a few internships and courses with certification and tried to start a business with my friend... The tech always changes so it's very likely what you learn now will not be in high demand 5 years later but your knowledge remains so don't focus on the tools you are working with rather than what you can learn from it - build up your portfolio of projects and skillset gradually if that answers your question

[vapid jay]

ngl idk what ima be doing as a job so many things on my mind and i mean i might not be relevant since i never touched python in my life but i will next year i do love video games though and i like learning about the nintendo ds hardware so i might do that i don't even think my skill would be valuable to a company anyway just thinking about being a independent artist that incorporates tech elements into their work maybe python could help with that

[summer roost]

Go to university, get a computer science degree, and trust that there will always be jobs that need critical thinking skills and design skills.

[iron shadow]

Yeah i understand what you're saying, i do most of the time just build projects and have a lot of fun working on it

[silk socket]

@iron shadow I would rather advise you to learn as much as you can while you have the opportunity to get ahead of your peers like I did istead of studying...

[summer roost]

Those aren't mutually exclusive by any means

[silk socket]

That sounds great, so what is it exactly that you are worried about!?

[iron shadow]

I was worried about my knowledge on web development might not be too useful or in demand in the future and that i may be taking a risky career decision, but i feel a little more confident now

[summer roost]

It's totally believable that AI tools might change the type of work software developers are doing in a decade, but it's very difficult to believe that they would eliminate the need for software developers, any more than chainsaws eliminated the need for lumberjacks. They're just a tool that can be used to make some of the work easier. It's unlikely they'll be able to do anything but the very simplest work any time soon.

[iron shadow]

Yeah

[iron shadow]

if all goes well. ive never been an academically bright student so i self-teach myself on these most of the time like vojtaborsky says. but given the oppurtinity yea i probably would try to get a degree

[summer roost]

Over 70% of professional devs have degrees. It's definitely possible to get a job if you're totally self taught, but it's the less common, more difficult path.

[silk socket]

Listen most of the software developers start in web dev and then shift as they please, you are free to choose a similar path. And keep on mind there are businesses and almost every business needs a website or a web app - some are a bit more complex than other - you will always find a job if you are interested in building web. If software developers are no longer required to build a web then you will shift your career to the area of building tools which build websites and so on... Right now you should not focus on a field like web dev, instead just build skills and chill + consider learning more about AI and AI usage as a software dev.

[silk socket]

I would say that it is actually faster, more promissing and easier (since it is faster) It just depends if you like to build projects in your spare time or rather sit on your ass playing video games...

but it doesn't matter overall, it's true that you always get paid for your skills in this field not anything else so if you think you can be satisfied with your skills and get paid enough you can do whatever you want of course

[summer roost]

It's definitely not. We see many more self taught devs struggling to get jobs in this channel than college graduate devs. It's great that it worked out for you, but it does not work out so nicely for a lot of people.

[silk socket]

listen, I know what you are talking about but I don't think either one is "easy". I would argue that with a degree but 0 relevant skill it's always going to be harder to land a decent job

and it doesn't depend in this field how many certificates or degrees you have. the only thing that matters is your value - how many RELEVANT and INTERESTING projects you have on your profile, how many internships you had and what you can do with your skillset

I genuenly think that people are struggling to get a job only because they learned something useless like PHP or they just don't know what they are doing, it's fairly simple to get your desired life if you know what you are talking about...

[summer roost]

Sure, obviously, but that's a strawman. The people someone self taught is competing with for entry level jobs aren't people with degrees but no skills, they're people with the same skills as them who also have degrees.

[summer roost]

If you participate more in this channel, you'll quickly see that's not the case.

[open cradle]

When I search for a job, most of the applications have a first filter like: have a CS degree (or similar)

[silk socket]

Let me put it into perspective:
You can study 3 years
or
You can work 3 years full-time

the people who build-up their career during those 3 years will become senior developers by the time the students get out of UNI and start looking for their first actual job.... XD

[silk socket]

of course!

because the developers don't do the hiring, the PR does it! When you sit with them and chat about what you can do then get tested by actual developers from their company youa are very likely to land the job

[summer roost]

Again, that's a strawman. Most people cannot work full time for 3 years instead of studying for 3 years, because they cannot get hired to do any work with no education and no work history.

[open cradle]

Yeah. And now imagine: there are 3.000 applicants for a single position. They need to do a quick first filtering stage. Are they going to take a look at all the projects they all did, or are they going to directly go to a single line (degree) to do a first filtering?

[silk socket]

My first job as a junior developer required 2 years of full-time programming experience and a degree - I had none but thanks to my communication skills and dev skills, I was able to get a plenty of offers from big companies just because there is always shortage for developers if you know what you are doing...

[summer roost]

That's extremely far from true. Developers are involved in every step of the hiring process.

[summer roost]

It's quite possible that you're a far better than average developer, and that what worked for you would not work for most people.

[silk socket]

stop being an ant in 3,000 people. become the one that stands out and there is a plenty of ways you can do that it's not that hard

[summer roost]

It absolutely is hard to stand out as one of the best of thousands of applicants who are all trying to get hired just like you are.

[silk socket]

are you even a programmer? I meant that they do not rely on your degree because the job posting was written by PR to get the most valuable people but in reality they just want somebody who can prove their skills (and degree suits that as a proof of skill if you don't have any other way to show what you can do)

[open cradle]

That's my point. I try to stand from the crowd by collaborating in open source projects, creating my own projects, publishing papers in conferences + having a degree

[silk socket]

ok... :/

there is literally 1,000,000 job postings all around the globe right now, you don't have to go apply to goole right of the bat... First build up your career then go try a big company. you shoud also start neworking if you want to do better in life. it's necessary as you can imagine

[summer roost]

Yep, I'm a senior software engineer. I don't even know what you mean by "PR" - public relations? - but I can tell you that at my company, and every company that I've been involved in hiring at, the job ads are written by engineering managers, not by PR people or human resources people or recruiters, and I can tell you that engineers do nearly all of the filtering of candidates

[silk socket]

well that's great to land your first job which doesn't have to be prestigous by any means - just something decent, then build up there for like two or three years and move to better position: keep repeating that until you are some manager of a division earning $150K + a year

[silk socket]

I am not from USA we have different shortened words, sorry I don't have the correct knowledge about this

[open cradle]

I just do not share your opinion about the degree. I still think it is needed most of the times. A good example would be Elon Musk saying that degrees are no longer needed in his companies. Now go to Tesla or SpaceX jobs and search for any Data Scientist or Software Dev. Try to find one that does not require a BSC/BEng

[silk socket]

In my experience there are something like "recruiters" we could say (once again english is not my strong side) and they are well educated about the IT field and the hire they are looking for + they get parameters from the position manager then they put it all together and filter out people