career-advice

[hearty island]

i was confused whether or not he wanted me to join the meeting late bc one time i did and he was like don't do that again

[proven crest]

He was pissed? That’s an overreaction..

[hearty island]

he said to message him next time but it was during his meeting so i doubt he'd check his messages

[ivory sluice]

you know when these meetings are? then you need to reschedule your lunch or reschedule the meeting

[proven crest]

I mean you shouldn’t have taken lunch at that time if you had a meeting then, but humans make mistakes

[ivory sluice]

is this a one on one?

[ivory sluice]

that's the bare minimum

[proven crest]

People can still see messages while in meetings. That’s another reason I have teams on my phone, quick glance down to see

[craggy wave]

I do have MS Teams on my phone, but I prefer to have a separate work telephone, as I can put it on "Do not disturb" while keeping my private telephone on a different setting. You can also do that from within Teams if you only have the single phone, but I find that a hassle. The reason that I have it on my phone is because I'm often working in different environments where I do not have access to the Teams environment of my own employer. Since I have a lost of tasks for which it's useful to have access, having it on my phone helps.

[ivory sluice]

in a busy workplace people live and die by their calendars. if you accept a meeting invite and just don't show, that's very rude.

[hearty island]

it was his problem management call and he got pissed because i joined other people's problem management calls

[proven crest]

Ah this too, half the time I’m on client laptops which has their own companies teams that I never use

[ivory sluice]

is the understood expectation that you join these calls? or are you supposed to be able to pick and choose and they're just being unreasonable about skipping theirs?

[hearty island]

i think at least now for his i'm just supposed to join no matter what

[proven crest]

Is this a new job?

[hearty island]

it's an internship

[ivory sluice]

i'd say if he's your mentor... then yeah maybe.

[craggy wave]

When you have a meeting in your calendar, you accepted the meeting, right?

[hearty island]

yeah then i should've been there

[ivory sluice]

now if it's causing a problem where you have these all day leaving you no room for a lunch break, you need to discuss with your manager what your options are

[craggy wave]

Indeed. Not showing up to a meeting without a heads-up, especially if it's a 1:1, is not a good look. The other person has made time for the meeting and showed up.

[hearty island]

i'll just have lunch in front of the computer. sounds like the way to go. my camera will be off anyways

[craggy wave]

I decline meetings if attending would mean I have to skip my lunch break. I've also booked a repeating, tentative meeting in my client calendar during lunch, as the client is too big to have good social rules about not dumping meetings in lunch time. (It's often the only free block if you want to invite a large group of people in a meeting-heavy organization, so people just dump meetings there because they have some time earlier or later to have lunch.)

[craggy wave]

I used to do that, too, but I've found that disconnecting from work and my screen for 30 minutes or so vastly boosts my productivity after lunch and it helps with feeling not drained at the end of the day. I had to learn things like this the hard way; I experienced burnout in the past.

[hearty island]

in my case it gets pretty exhausting trying to discover the context before a call when i legit only have half an hour, idk how IT problem managers do it

often means i will have to dig through the entire incident record in ServiceNow

[ivory sluice]

are you paid hourly?

[hearty island]

yes.

[ivory sluice]

an intern should really be properly taking their lunch break. you should work on setting boundaries for yourself without skipping on meetings you're expected to attend.

[ivory sluice]

most employees*. but especially interns that are paid hourly where their lunch hour is likely an unpaid one!

[craggy wave]

Break regulations do differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Here, there's no real difference between "salaried" and "hourly", in that sense. Breaks here are all unpaid in principle, unless your contract (or collective contract) states something else. The law does state that you're required to get breaks (if you work longer x hours) and even states that you're not allowed to skip them (bar two very specific exceptions).

[hearty island]

thanks for the advice guys. much appreciated.

[hearty island]

what sort of annoys me about my internship is that i'm unable to be involved in calls. i can't interact or ask questions of my own because that makes us look uncoordinated

so then i never have practice of actually asking questions and doing any actual problem management

at least my last internship encouraged me to take a more active role and speak up

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, you ever read how long it takes sushi chefs to train?

[weary sage]

👋 pls is there any place I can get a remote internship even if I don’t get paid… I believe I’ve been focusing on too much learning and it’s difficult to get things done alone

[silver jacinth]

Companies rarely do it

It's usually onsite only if you wanna volunteer

[weary sage]

It’s difficult because I’m outside U.S

And there’s little or no such opportunity here in NG

[silver jacinth]

There's always open source

You could contribute on GitHub

[weary sage]

I need internship that alows me learn along from real-time people.. GitHub is great but you have to figure out yourself can be detrimental

[hearty island]

are you talking to me?

[hearty island]

you have to do both imo in your field

[sleek egret]

obviously cutting up raw fish is more difficult than writing software

[true harness]

is it obvious? I suppose there's a larger entry barrier

[plain mulch]

hi I am a college dropout switching domains from marketing to tech I had a CS background so I know python and basic DSA can anyone help me with resume building and what else to study for interviews

[true harness]

you can send your resume here for review. for interviews, I would advise that the interpersonal part is just as, if not more, important than your technical skills

[hearty island]

you can use grow with google to practice behavioral interview questions

[plain mulch]

i am able to clear the first 2 rounds of basic HR and theoretical questions I am getting stuck in technical round

[true harness]

well, it seems you know exactly what to practice

[plain mulch]

plus I don't have much projects on my resume the ones which are listed are very basic like basic regression project

[hearty island]

then you need to do more advanced projects too as well as focus on technical interview problems

[plain mulch]

yeah but I am getting stuck in arrays on hackerrank while the interviewers are asking me heaps and trees

[plain mulch]

do you guys create projects from scratch or do you pick up an idea and find code related to it

[sleek egret]

the answer to your question is: yes

[hearty island]

wdym by create from scratch? every project should ideally have an idea that's in your head

[sleek egret]

what if my head is full of holes and all my ideas leak out?

[plain mulch]

XD

[hearty island]

that sounds ruff

[sleek egret]

it's because I'm old and my head is full. for every new thing I learn, something old gets pushed out.

[cerulean gyro]

Forward it to me

[fringe sphinx]

!kindling is one place, but my favorite suggestion for building a portfolio is: go find a ‘good first issue’ on a repository you use and try to fix/contribute.

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[woeful loom]

Is that ur wife

[cerulean gyro]

Yes why?

[woeful loom]

Just wandering bro

[dreamy spade]

I can’t remember it

[pine sleet]

ruff 👍

[dreamy spade]

What is the offer of employment suppose to detail in an email? Will it show the salary?

[fringe sphinx]

Generally, title and salary, and a summary of benefits

[near ocean]

It should yes
It would probably only mention a few things like title, salary, your manager's name or team name

[hearty island]

my manager thinks my critical thinking skills are weak

[dreamy spade]

Very informative. Thank you.

[deft herald]

You can always ask about benefits before you get an offer, too

that info should be readily available. Some companies post it all publicly on their careers page too

[dreamy spade]

The job posting was posted on my college’s career jobs page. Salary was left blank.

[deft herald]

I was specifically talking about benefits. Although it is a requirement in many US states now to post a salary range with a job description

[sleek egret]

huh? which states?

[deft herald]

Colorado is one. I think maybe Cali?

[near ocean]

NY and cali afaik, ofc their ranges are stupid

[deft herald]

New York i think too

[sleek egret]

silly law

[deft herald]

Yeah i've seen some like 80-200k DOE

[sleek egret]

yeah, I'd just post $10k to $1+mil

[deft herald]

There's gotta be like a +/- % tied to it you would think. Maybe not though cause that would actually make sense

[summer roost]

Transparency about pay ranges benefits both candidates and companies. It prevents time being wasted interviewing candidates who would not be willing to work for the salary the company is willing to pay, which is win/win

[near ocean]

Laws should be amended to be tighter though, otherwise we may as well start saying our skills as applicants range from complete newbie to godlike

[sleek egret]

but that's what your skills do range

[fringe sphinx]

I think there’s little correlation between skill and pay (within +- seniority level).

(By skill, I should probably mean ‘contributions’/value)

[gilded valley]

I think there's almost certainly high correlation. High paying jobs tend to require a lot more effort to get, filtering out people who are unwilling to put in effort for anything - which is a huge portion of people

and effort expended leads to better contributions

[fringe sphinx]

My experience is: within a company (large and small), salary is not commensurate with contribution/skill/[>_#{?{}z

[upper flume]

it depends upon the skill. it needs to be something others value. and it needs to be rare.
if you can do something that other people want, and you are one of the few who can do it, then you'll get payed.
Usually. There's still the world bringing it's unfairness along

[gilded valley]

(I also think that's only one of quite a few mechanisms that work in this direction, motivation for self improvement being another strong one)

[fringe sphinx]

(I’m speaking as a manager who’s had many wtf moments when doing annual reviews)

[gilded valley]

that's a slightly different proposition though. I think companies paying a premium tend to be more likely to get premium engineers. agree anecdotally that within a company it makes little difference

[fringe sphinx]

Yup, that’s all I meant… not that all companies pay equally (not at all)

[upper flume]

skill is required in every position. if you can't do the work, you get kicked out. some positions are just really easy. you move stuff, you get payed little, but you still have to be able to move stuff.
money comes with responsibility. If your decision makes the company a 2.5 million dollar swing, you ain't getting payed minimum wage.

also, if you want money, you have to get close to the people who decide about the money. you make bank, at the bank.

[gilded valley]

this is a idealist's view of an imaginary world.

unless you are very very close to where a company makes it's money - sales, investing etc - then the two are largely decoupled

[upper flume]

i don't understand, because i don't understand what 2 things are decoupled. but i want to understand. can you explain a bit more?

[fringe sphinx]

Not true at all.

[upper flume]

alright i guess i'm learning something today

[gilded valley]

money saved or earned for the company is at best loosely tied to personal remuneration

[fringe sphinx]

But Je Suis made the point I agree with. I’m saying: real world, companies retain a lot of dead weight (bluntly speaking).

[dreamy spade]

Someone in this server said that someone working in retail is probably working harder than them as a software engineer

[fringe sphinx]

💯. Every waitress I meet works harder than I do, and I consider myself a hard worker

[dreamy spade]

Is fixing an API easier than what a waitress does for work?

[upper flume]

yea but my point was, if the waitress makes a mistake, we lose out on coffee. if the software engineer makes a mistake, we lose 600.000 passwords to a hacker.

it's not about working hard or skill. its about responsibility

[analog cipher]

Hi, I'm new in the server, I want to become an AI developer, I've recently started learning python.

[harsh river]

yes

[upper flume]

hello, i am a medical doctor and i cannot help you. but welcome.

[fringe sphinx]

More realistically, a SWE makes a mistake and a few people are inconvenienced because the build failed

[analog cipher]

I need someone who can help me get started.

[analog cipher]

Nice to meet you.

[upper flume]

right but that's a minor mistake. if he commits something bad, the passwords might go. the waitress can only commit minor mistakes. the SWE can mess up way worse.

[true harness]

different definitions of easy. also, I suspect people that write APIs like doing it because they're good at it, so naturally the people you're sampling would find it easier

[fringe sphinx]

I don’t even know what we’re talking about. The topic was is SWEing hard work, and my point was SWE is an easy lifestyle. Not arguing value or the rest.

[proven crest]

For you, no. For someone with years worth of experience doing so, yes.

There's a reason certain tasks are given to junior developers, a senior developer could probably fix it in 5 minutes flat without engaging their brain whereas a junior might take a lot longer and find it challenging.

[true harness]

depends on how you define "easy", though, and there are different kinds of stress

[proven crest]

Different people also have different stress tolerance levels

[spark cobalt]

Another way you can look at it: You can SWE until you die, there's a retirement point for waiting (physical requirements of waiting will force you to have to quit.)

Also hard to measure difficulty when they're in different dimensions. SWE more mentally challenging and not physically challenging whatsoever, while waiting is more physically challenging than it is mentally.

[soft vessel]

hi

[broken gate]

Hey all, is there any recommendations on where to lookup salaries based on location? There's some places I found online but not sure how up to date these are and some seem more favored to the big FANG type of companies. Trying to get a rough idea of where my salary should be at

[near ocean]

Glassdoor probably

[small geode]

I wouldn't think too hard about that, especially because it will always be different than you think or whatever you saw. If you want regional numbers for a generic position title, the department of labor has stats through bls.gov

[wary oriole]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[modest kraken]

You should pay me

[proper juniper]

What do you folks do for freelancing? Im trying to get into some entry level jobs that I can do from home that wont interfere to much with my main job (which is boring as all heck.) Id like to work towards a career in python, so this is my plan.

Im sure it is with others. Any thoughts? Insights?

[dreamy spade]

@sour tartan The director of technology more than likely will be able to fully articulate exactly what's wrong with the API.

[sour tartan]

i'm confused about a company that has a director of technology but no developers?

[dreamy spade]

It's not a software development company

it's an audiovisual company with audiovisual technicians

[sour tartan]

ok, but they have some APIs that a developer could fix? That means they are running some code of their own.

[dreamy spade]

That means they are running some code of their own.

Yes. Which is why they need a developer

[sour tartan]

who wrote the code? Why did that developer leave?

[dreamy spade]

I don't know who wrote it but my assumption is that the developer got fired because they couldn't fix the API.

[sour tartan]

i don't know where you are in this process, but you can ask what happened to the last developer.

you can ask what is wrong with the API. You can let them know what you can do and what you need.

[true harness]

firing a dev because they wrote a bug is...not how development works

[celest kite]

Likely to get the vanilla corporate answer "they're... Seeking other opportunities"

[sour tartan]

yes, that might be the non-answer. Or you might get, "that guy was a moron, he couldn't fix it, so we fired him," and you will know much more about your potential bosses. (btw, 20 sec slowdown!?)

[celest kite]

We would have fired Robin... A few seconds after he started

[sour tartan]

@dreamy spade I know you have been looking for a while, and are frustrated. You do not need to take "any" job. Being the only developer in a job with unrealistic expectations and no support could be worse for you than no job at all. Please go into it with open eyes.

[dreamy spade]

All right. I will say this.

The employment offer has been signed. I accepted it.

[sour tartan]

you mean you have an official offer from them? Congrats! What will you do?

[pine sleet]

hecking mean

[fleet reef]

But true

[dreamy spade]

One of my responsibilities is that I will go to job sites and work along side with audiovisual technicians. I will be the one who will write Python code and deploy it into embedded audiovisual software. I never done anything like this before and I don’t know the processes.

But first I will need to fix the API of a project management software that the company uses. The co-founder is the most concerned about that project.

[fleet reef]

allow me to introduce you to my boss

[sour tartan]

when I said what will you do, I meant, about the offer? Accept it?

[dreamy spade]

Well I signed it already so it’s accepted.

[sour tartan]

i see, when you said signed, you meant that you signed it. i hope you have success there.

[dreamy spade]

Me too. It’s great and terrifying at the same time.

[summer roost]

Good luck! 🙂

[dreamy spade]

Thank you very much.

[rich hornet]

Is a bachelors in Data Science any good?

[fringe sphinx]

? As opposed to what?

[fringe sphinx]

And good luck, you’ll do great (especially because you’re willing to ask for feedback).

[peak halo]

"data science" is a relatively new concept, so I'm not sure that accrediting organizations have come up with a standard for what a data science degree ought to entail. Whereas computer science degrees are universally recognized.

[rich hornet]

for AI/ml or would i need a masters?

[rich hornet]

yea i was thinking cs

[peak halo]

You would probably need a master's in computer science, with coursework that emphasizes AI/ML

[fringe sphinx]

Many universities are offering bs in ds programs, and it’s becoming fairly common. Ie: https://datasciencemajor.stanford.edu/academics/undergraduate-bs-program

My bias is to what Stel said: I’m older and am confused by what a DS undergrad degree is. Is it CS with a minor in stats or vice versa?

[rich hornet]

the problem is my uni only has this course called "computing" but i dont think thats cs more like a technical version,not sure

[peak halo]

I'm not sure what a "technical" alternative to CS would be. Is CS not already technical?

[rich hornet]

lol i mean more practical or something

like its seems different from the traditional cs degree but it has a cs pathway aswell as swe in the modules so im a bit lost

[fringe sphinx]

Fair, there’s a practical side of CS and a theoretical side. Are you saying your school has a DS program but not CS?

[rich hornet]

yea

only masters cs its so dumb

[peak halo]

You can click through to the degree requirements there and decide for yourself. Looks like that program blends CS, math, and stats

[rich hornet]

yea but is it really worth it if it doesnt have the sexy "computer science" in the title 😂 id transfer but so much work

or does it not matter much to employers

[fringe sphinx]

My two cents is: DS is becoming accepted as a primary discipline. Us older professionals all have CS degrees, so it’s a bit weird to us, but I think it’s on equal footing with CS nowadays. But there’s room for disagreement.

[summer roost]

Employers tend to care about accreditation. Any CS degree from an accredited institution is roughly equally good.

[rich hornet]

dam thats pretty good points

[rich hornet]

i dont think its an actual cs degree tho thats the thing.or do u mean cs as in related fields?

[rich hornet]

in DS id be doing more math than actual programming itself? thats like the main thing thats turning me away

[fringe sphinx]

As Stel said, depends on curriculum, by my understanding of DS programs@are they are a hybrid Stats/CS curriculum.

[summer roost]

I meant actual CS degree. A "computing" degree seems much less useful to me than a computer science degree

[summer roost]

That's more or less true for a computer science degree, too

[rich hornet]

hmm, if thats the case i might actually try it then,but i actually meant on the job like data engineering and data scientist or whatever

might have to do more research in DS cause i dont want to go in thinking im gonna be coding but feel like im an accountant 💀

[native hatch]

Hello, has anyone here had experience working with Python or matlab in a laboratory setting?

[rich hornet]

this is probably the route im gonna take,just seems smarter rather than doing computing ( pretty much a low level cs rip off) so BA Data science into masters cs

[peak halo]

what is your actual quesiton? people aren't going to want to say "yes, I've used python or matlab in a lab" if they don't know what you really want to ask.

[rich hornet]

would be better the other way around tbh

[summer roost]

Oh, then yeah. Those jobs are basically applied statistics.

[native hatch]

Sorry. I wanted to ask, how much knowledge in Python/matlab is expected for data collection when it comes to a typical research project in a lab?

[peak halo]

depends on the lab. I've only worked in NLP labs, and zero amount of matlab is expected (or used). I don't know how to quantify non-zero amounts of Python knowledge, but numpy and pandas are the libraries I use the most for manipulating data.

[summer roost]

what sort of lab are you thinking of? I know people who work in bio who have done exactly zero Python or Matlab

[native hatch]

I’ve never heard of numpy and panda. I don’t even know what a library is (in the programming world). Is this something I should know?

[native hatch]

It’s a biophysics lab. Matlab is needed for the data collection/data processing stages

[summer roost]

in the programming world, "library" means a collection of code packaged for reuse across multiple projects

[native hatch]

Ohhh, ok. Thanks

[peak halo]

Sounds like you should learn the basics of Python, and then concern yourself with what non-basics you'll need to learn.

[summer roost]

I think you're assuming there will be some consistency across labs, and I doubt there will. I think this is a question you'd need to ask the people running your lab.

[native hatch]

Great, thanks

[true harness]

many labs use R, also

[peak halo]

(can confirm that there is not consistency between labs)

[peak halo]

Sad but true

[vapid jay]

Hii

Anyone know how to make an app?

[smoky quest]

Hi!
It's not the appropriate place for this type of question. You may want to try #python-discussion or #❓｜how-to-get-help

[wanton birch]

For some reason, I never even heard about R until relatively recently. I thought it was some completely obsolete junk. Maybe it is because of heavy use of Matlab in the engineering labs.

[gritty lantern]

Anyone from the UK with experience on getting a job related to Python without any degree etc.? I am currently starting to self teach with videos and books etc. with the hope to progress into a career

Wanting to know prospects etc.

[timber bear]

I wanna to be a data science . How I become a good data science.
What language I choose first to learn.

[echo pond]

English

[pastel thunder]

how to be a team player when teammate are just thinking about how they can show they did the most work?

[echo pond]

Just leave the team and form or join a new one which is according to your interests

[celest kite]

Interestingly I've interviewed candidates with "computer science" degrees from accredited universities and was left very confused at how the university was getting away with calling it computer science (the candidates coursework was more like Infosys). So um I've learned to ask specific questions about the programs rather than trusting the degree.

[hearty island]

i struggle with root cause analysis calls and coming up with questions off incident tickets. my manager chalked it up to my critical thinking skills being weak 😭

i feel like i was never trained to do this stuff

[gritty rivet]

I'm in the US not the UK but would say it's not impossible but pretty difficult. Get a degree if you can, and either way, expect to learn more than just Python before you're job ready, even if it's your primary language

Not here this is #career-advice

[vapid jay]

OH HELL i accidentally talked in the wrong channel

Im sorry guys

[celest kite]

How silly of you

[true harness]

but there are schools that are not accredited that you might be surprised to hear. notably I think UIUC's program is not, and a few other well known ones

[hearty island]

i even asked in reddit for how i can get better at figuring my own questions out and they suggested to read more incident tickets

[fringe sphinx]

Competition is not necessarily a bad thing: it’s better to have that, than coworkers who don’t care. As long as it’s friendly competition.

[hearty island]

ideally speaking when you’re doing a root cause analysis the best questions are the “why” questions

[fringe sphinx]

Have you studied six sigma at all?

[hearty island]

lean six sigma? yeah i have a yellow belt cert

[proper juniper]

What do you folks do for freelancing? Im trying to get into some entry level jobs that I can do from home that wont interfere to much with my main job (which is boring as all heck.) Id like to work towards a career in python, so this is my plan.

Im sure it is with others. Any thoughts? Insights?

[hearty island]

freelancing is extremely difficult

[gritty rivet]

You can look at platforms like Upwork and Fiverr but do expect it to be difficult

A more common path is to get experience with personal projects, contributing to open source, etc. and then get a normal job.

[proven crest]

You can look at places like UpWork to see what kind of freelancing gigs are available. That's probably the path of least resistance if you're concentrating on a main job.

[proper juniper]

I started a profile on UpWork for sure and have been reaching out. Fiverr is another spot I can look.

I am working on building my own apps/portfolio.
I've done a web scraper
Discord Bot (slash commands are killing me rn tho)
And A Motion Detection Application that can output detection. Working on this for a UAP project.

[proven crest]

Thats all good stuff! Do you have a github you are making regular commits to?

[proper juniper]

The scraper I havent tossed up yet, it is complete.

However the other 2 projects, 1 is for a discord community, the other I havent finished yet, so its not on git yet.

I dont often use git when doing solo projects. If that makes sense.

[proven crest]

With all your projects they should be on git, lets people see your code, your changes, shows that you can use git which you'd be suprised how many people dont

You can set repos to private too

[proper juniper]

Noted. I guess ill open GitKraken and GitGoing.. 😄

[proven crest]

Try and use cli! It’s simple to learn but pretty important, I can’t see you needing a gui for personal projects but it’s totally up to you 🙂
P.S I’ve never used git kraken so maybe it has features I’m totally ignorant to

[proper juniper]

I have used cli before. I suppose I could get back to cli. I like gitkraken because its visually easy for me to identify and go through stuff. Dont get me wrong, I love command line interfaces, but sometimes, it gets muddy looking at for me and I feel like my head goes foggy.

[celest kite]

@proper juniper the problem with a platform like Fivver is that you're competing with the world. So i.e. places where the cost of living is fractional parts of other counties where they're happy to accept... $5/hour which is like 1/3 of minimum wage in other countries

[proper juniper]

Thats happening with coding, with manual labor jobs, with anything and always has. The difference is, the person you get, what they are capable of and what sets them apart from those that just want to do it for 5$ an hour. Make sense?

[celest kite]

Of course. But what I'm saying is that many employers on those platforms don't care. I.e. they don't really understand what they're getting they just want the job done as cheaply as possible.

Now of course those of us who know; know that a Fivver freelancer for $5 an hour is... Unlikely to write very good code; that's still your competition

[proper juniper]

Thats why you sell yourself to the client. Idk man I get what you are saying 100% but again its what sets you apart.

like if you cant be like, here is what a $5 code block gets you >works, but poops out errors. Versus $50-$75 dollar app that has no errors, runs clean and can be adaptable.

[true harness]

isn't the point that different costs of living will result in different prices for the same quality

[fringe sphinx]

I have known some people to find good talent via fiverr or via other platforms. Had a friend who was bootstrapping a startup and needed some code written, farmed it out (I don't remember the platform), was lucky to get a good engineer (I think in Egypt) who he ended up contracting on a long-term basis. Not saying this is typical / just an anecdote.

[near ocean]

What kind of projects do you even find on fiverr
I mostly see silly 100-line tops web scraping requests for dirt cheap

[gritty rivet]

The problem is more extreme when it comes to outsourcing. An SWE in a rich country with 1-2 years experience can make a comfortable living as a full-time employee. Doing that as as freelancer is near-impossible. The freelance market is even more split between extreme high end and extreme low end.

[near ocean]

freelancing without tons of experience is like doing odd jobs, would you mow people's lawns and wash cars for a living?

[sleek egret]

you can make a great living doing landscape design or car detailing

[near ocean]

you wouldnt walk up to some child and ask them to wrap your car, would you?

[proper juniper]

Yeah I see this in the results. "Entry level 100s" Expert level "100s" Intermediate level "3"

[sleek egret]

#career-advice, where young dreams go to get crushed by reality

[near ocean]

i blame hollywood

[proper juniper]

Nahh. If you are persuaded that easily by a challenge, then coding is not for anyone 😄

[near ocean]

being stubborn is not a good quality to have as a software dev

[sleek egret]

wise words

[proper juniper]

Real world is ruff you know what im saying?

[sleek egret]

woof

[fringe sphinx]

Fine line between grit and stubborn!

[sleek egret]

one needs to be creatively stubborn

[proper juniper]

Said every person after a error

[sleek egret]

not every person. many just give up

[smoky quest]

or declare it a feature

[dreamy spade]

I thought ranting wasn’t allowed in this channel. What happened?

[proven crest]

Wheres the ranting? Also I don't think thats a rule, its just discouraged as it isn't helpful to anyone

[pastel thunder]

if i get better offer, is it ok to leave just before onboarding?

or do i have to serve notice period?

[dreamy spade]

Wheres the ranting?

I think the same thing when they told me the same whenever I speak my mind.

I got lectured by moderators twice about it.

[gritty rivet]

Yes, just understand that you're probably burning any bridges with that particular employer

[proven crest]

I mean, legally no. Its an arsehole move and will be a pain for them. If the other job is a sure thing, take it. Thats just part of life unfortunately. Like dowcet said, you will absolutely be burning every bridge with them.

[pastel thunder]

my university has a clause that student are allowed to leave your(company) offer, if they(student) get better offer

[gritty rivet]

Ok, that changes nothing, is probably meant as protection from lawsuits

Against your university I mean

[proven crest]

Venting frustration in an unconstructive manner, especially when others are trying to help you and ask for advice is not helpful though is it? Sure you can understand that 🙂

[celest kite]

Arent you ... No longer Enraged though?

[sleek egret]

your university has exactly zero say in the matter

[proven crest]

Unless they arranged the jobs maybe?

[pastel thunder]

How long should i work?

[dreamy spade]

What makes you say that?

[celest kite]

Well you have a jerb now

[proven crest]

KeezyEmployed

[sleek egret]

even then

[pastel thunder]

Is it ok to postpone onboarding, then cancel it, untill my offer finalise?

[dreamy spade]

Yeah man. It was a rough time job hunting.

[sleek egret]

are you asking if it's ethical? or if it's do-able?

[pastel thunder]

or is it a even bigger asshole move?

[sleek egret]

is it ethical? no. is it do-able? yes. do people do it? yes. will the first company be pissed off? yes.

[pastel thunder]

how big of an asshole move it is

[dreamy spade]

I’m already sensing how responsible my new job will be because the staff team isn’t very tech-savvy.

[sleek egret]

it's this > < big

[pastel thunder]

even better

[dreamy spade]

It’s making me nervous. I don’t have a mentor.

[sleek egret]

maybe some responsibility will be good for you. some people bloom and really excel/achieve great things when responsibility is thrust on them before they're ready

others just cry. most are in between.

[pastel thunder]

you can do this

[sleek egret]

lol

[dreamy spade]

People have echoed that it’s not a great idea to have only one software programmer on the staff team

[sleek egret]

for most people, being alone on your first job is bad

[proven crest]

Especially one with zero experience.

[sleek egret]

but you're not most people. you're @dreamy spade

i don't mean that in a "everyone's special" kind of way. I mean that in a "everyone's slightly different in some odd way" kind of way

for many things, the "typical" and "average" literally doesn't matter because you are you, not some hypothetical average person

[proven crest]

Be prepared to work very hard, pray to god that whoever was the developer previously documented their code and wrote cleanly

[sleek egret]

I don't think there is any previous code

[proven crest]

I assumed there was, from my understanding they had at least one developer before who was let go because they couldn't fix an API, that API must have been implemented by another developer previously? Or by that developer but a bug cropped up?

Maybe the fix is they added a digit to the API key but didn't realise

[celest kite]

There is

[sleek egret]

my mistake then

[summer roost]

Have you signed a contract? If not, you can just walk away (at the cost of annoying the company and making it harder to get hired there in the future). If you have, what does your contact say?

[karmic pulsar]

What do you guys wanna be when you grow up? (Obviously not the most nerve-racking, awkward question you get from other people)

[true harness]

younger

[sleek egret]

why is that nerve wracking?

(serious question)

[proven crest]

Wise, wealthy and healthy

[pastel thunder]

i havent signed anything other than filling some google form. I think i will leave after working couple of days, 15 days is my notice period. Also what should i say to the companies that i am interviewing at?

if they ask: why are you leaving your company so soon?

[fringe sphinx]

tbh, that's kinda a jerk move. Why start if you're going to leave?

You'd be better off just not starting.

[karmic pulsar]

Well what the hell else am I supposed to respond, I wanted to be an Aerospace Engineer, and here I am now.

[vapid jay]

Is a degree in Mathematics and Computing good enough for data science?

[gritty rivet]

Good enough for what? Compared to what?

[vapid jay]

Computer Science

CSE

[gritty rivet]

The name of a degree program doesn't tell you very much.

If you're considering a specific program I would search LinkedIn for alumni. If you can't find any doing data science that suggests an uphill battle. If you do, ask their advice

[vapid jay]

It's more of maths, containing calculus, algebra, statistics and probability and computing mainly of python

[gritty rivet]

That does sound like a better fit for DS work than a CS degree typically might be... My advice is the same though

[vapid jay]

Oh okay

What degree do you suggest me for data science?@gritty rivet

[gritty rivet]

No idea what country you are in and I don't do DS... but here in the US there are a lot of MS degrees in DS. If you're sure you want to do DS that is what I would aim for. You'd have to see what they look for but I assume any BS will do whether math or CS or even something else. This is just a guess, you can look for yourself

[vapid jay]

Okay, thanks for your help@gritty rivet

[celest kite]

That's like way more annoying. You're wasting the time of all the people setting up your accounts and equipment

If you pulled that at my work you'd be black listed forever

[pastel thunder]

I am more concerned about provident fund, will it make next employer see how much i have hopped jobs

[deft herald]

What's your logic behind starting a job just to quit it 2 weeks later?

[pastel thunder]

How could i have avoided such a thing?
i need a job, and i also need the best job i can get

[pastel thunder]

^

[deft herald]

If this is the only offer you have on the table, then i'm going to say this is the best job you can get

or rather, the best job you have gotten

[pastel thunder]

now if you get a way better offer just after joining, what to do?

[deft herald]

Don't assume that's going to happen

There's always a better job out there, i'm sure

What part about this job in particular makes you think it might not be the best? The pay?

[pastel thunder]

hmm,

[harsh river]

did you get a better offer just after joining?

[pastel thunder]

one is in final stages(now cannot be sure even if its in final stages), i havent joined, but has been invited for onboarding(also they have asked my bank details.)

[harsh river]

you're currently 2 weeks into a job that you want to quit correct? but aside from this do you have any other job offers from any other companies and have signed a contract / employment with them?

[pastel thunder]

no, i am unemployed currently. with one onboarding is going to happen, with other, they are gonna make an offer soon.

[harsh river]

then i agree with jah #career-advice message, as soon as you accepted an offer and started the onboarding process with a company then you should've let any other interested companies that you were no longer free, are you expecting the offer from that other company to be significantly better than your current one?

[pastel thunder]

ok and what if they revoke it and other company also due to some event puts a hold? i will be fucked.

[harsh river]

those are unknowns, imo don't burn bridges

[ivory sluice]

so you've not signed a contract or offer letter, you filled out a google form, and they've asked you for your bank account information?

are you sure you're not being scammed @pastel thunder ?

to avoid this kind of situation in the future i would inform employer A after they give you an offer with a "thank you, can I get back to you by X date?" and make sure employer B knows that they have until X date (or maybe a few days earlier than X)

[sleek egret]

why would they ask for bank account info before you're hired? that's a HUGE red flag

[ivory sluice]

but as of now you have no idea if you're getting an offer from employer B (what does "final stages" mean, you likely don't know) and as such, you should move forward with employer A as that's really your only option. after you do some vetting that they are legitimate, of course.

[pastel thunder]

this was from campus placement in university, i have signed document/offer letter to the university, but not to the employer.
it just says i am committed to working there. But university have a clause that lets us dump an offer if we have another.

[sleek egret]

that always comes after and only for direct deposit. and you can always refuse to just get a check instead.

[ivory sluice]

are you in like, an MBA program?

[harsh river]

sorts of sounds like an intership to me

[sleek egret]

the university is irrelevant. if they say otherwise, they're lying to you

[ivory sluice]

where companies have some arrangements with the university and first dibs on students?

[sleek egret]

unless it's an internship. then the university is relevant

[pastel thunder]

My university's seniors are there in same company. IT CANNOT BE A SCAM.

[sleek egret]

yeah, there are special rules and regs wrt internships that skip normal labor laws

[pastel thunder]

They come every year in campus during hiring.

[sleek egret]

is it an internship or an actual job?

[pastel thunder]

NO, bachelors

[harsh river]

this all sounds really strange

[lapis wind]

[sleek egret]

the university may be pimping out students by acting as a pseudo-recruiter and getting a kickback

[lapis wind]

thats like every university ever on these things though

[sleek egret]

I've heard of stranger things

[sleek egret]

including the recruiting fees?

[pastel thunder]

Bro what are you guys talking about?????

[lapis wind]

No that part no one can really say if they do or not, I don't know if they do.

[sleek egret]

we're talking about the institutional corruption of academia

[lapis wind]

also i'm pretty sure ruff was asking if the position at the company is an internship or a job rather than what stage you're at with the uni

[sleek egret]

and that ^ too

[lapis wind]

I'm not going that deep into it lol

[pastel thunder]

Its JOB

[pastel thunder]

all you need to understand is even Faang comes to my univ. Its because many employee are already from good univ, and they know they gonna find better candidated at univ

[ivory sluice]

that's all fine. it's possible to go to a popularly recruited university and get scammed lol. was this a google form but one owned by the university?

because then i'd be less worried. in what way were you asked to submit bank account info?

[pastel thunder]

yeah. its all under university supervision. Placement co-ordinator takes care of it all

[ivory sluice]

but also it's kind of strange that the university is so integrated with the onboarding process for a full time job at a separate company. you have seniors you can ask about this?

[harsh river]

answering the question what's your banking institution? would count as "submitting bank info" to some people

[sleek egret]

it would be unthinkable to me if I was on the hiring side

[ivory sluice]

i forget, you're in the US?

[pastel thunder]

India

[sleek egret]

oooooh

[ivory sluice]

yeah i got nothing then lol.

[harsh river]

maybe it's a regional or cultural thing

[sleek egret]

your university tends to be much more important in asia

[proper juniper]

and just like that the first upwork job I bid on, I got.

And the specific topic came up is he doesnt want a 5 dollar coder. HE wants someone whos going to do the right work.

[sleek egret]

lol, then why's he using upwork?

[proper juniper]

im confused? Why do people use upwork in the first place... to find people to do work and for peopel to post freelance type jobs

[lament geyser]

well

e

[hearty island]

lol. i think this woman from PwC called me because she thought i graduated and could get her a job offer at my current internship company

weirdest fucking call i’ve ever had

[patent shard]

Can someone pls guide Me about what is blockchain.

And why should someone be interested in it

Cause I find it interesting that recently after the crypto boost
Blockchains value is increasing day by day

And I am not aware what all can be done using it

[pine sleet]

[lapis wind]

It's a over-used term which is largely popular just through blind hype by people who don't actually know what it is or how it works.

Blockchains value is increasing day by day
This doesn't make sense because blockchain isn't a currency, it's a protocol.

It describes how distributed, non-trusting environments can come to a consensus on a given change/state.
The protocol is what all the cyrpto currencies are built upon thats about it.

99% of Crypto jobs atm are just blind hype jobs which either don't last, are pump and dump schemes, scams or have some insane perspective of why you should work for them.

Most people are interested in Blockchain simply because of the crypto hype because people think they can become rich over night.

If you actually want to go down a perticular career in Tech, I can safely say you probably want to avoid most Blockchain jobs and game developer jobs.

[patent shard]

Oh thanks @lapis wind

[dreamy spade]

I wanna know if anybody had an interview with both the recruiter and the hiring manager at the same time. It’s usually the 1st interview happens with the recruiter and if you pass that, you move on to the 2nd interview with the hiring manager right? My situation was the former.

[smoky quest]

Only the latter. But I am sure they have their reason. I wouldn't consider it a flag

[fringe sphinx]

(Agree, doesn’t mean anything)

[smoky quest]

Not a good start:

• Spamming in an irrelevant channel
• Posting about something that possibly goes against our rules 🤔

[vapid jay]

ur right mb

[near ocean]

Is it an interview or is it a few questions over the phone?

[chrome timber]

Hi guys, I'm a 3+ year python developer and I'm currently looking for a job. I have applied to several jobs, however it doesn't seem like my profile is being highlighted enough. I've been thinking about contributing to open source projects to improve my chances but I don't really know how to start. Any tips?

[dreamy spade]

Oh I already I had it. I never heard of there being an interview with recruiter and hiring manager at once as the first interview. It was a video call.

[fringe sphinx]

https://docs.github.com/en/get-started/exploring-projects-on-github/finding-ways-to-contribute-to-open-source-on-github

[chrome timber]

Thank you 🙂

[fringe sphinx]

Good luck, I think it’s a great way to boost your portfolio and learn valuable skills. It’s not easy: the big projects can be difficult just to build the first time, but what you’ll learn is invaluable

[dreamy spade]

Co-founder had me nervous in starting my first day when I had my final interview; He expressed great concern in getting the API fixed in the software that the company uses for it’s business. I wish the hiring manager explained more in detail on what was going on. I’m not going to have anybody help me in fixing the software problem. Has anybody been in a similar situation? I’m stressing over this and my first day didn’t start yet.

[chrome timber]

Being difficult is what makes it rewarding. Thanks 🙂

[tender flame]

[proven crest]

Well it sounds like thats a priority and one of the main reasons they brought you onboard. Does he know your level of experience and capability? Does he know that you haven't worked on API's before and it might take some time for you to get accustomed to how their code works?

From what you told me they're not technical so they probably couldn't explain any more than they already have. Its natural to be nervous, but it won't help you so try and relax (easier said than done, I know)

Do you know what the software is used for? Do you know what the API does? Is it one that was build ground up or is it an external API?

[hearty island]

the woman from pwc was really fucking weird

[sleek egret]

think of it as PWC embracing diversity and hiring all sorts of different personalities

🙂

[hearty island]

i think she thought i was a full time employee out of college

[near ocean]

Just say yes

And tell her to push your start date until after your graduation date

[hearty island]

nah, she wasn't a recruiter. she's a manager. i think she was looking for fulltime opps at my internship company. ended the call saying "if you need any referrals let me know"

and then i was like... at pWc? and then she was like or wherever i end up

[sleek egret]

that's very.... colorful

[dreamy spade]

Does he know your level of experience and capability? Does he know that you haven't worked on API's before and it might take some time for you to get accustomed to how their code works?

I have made a home full stack project where I fetched json data from the back-end and displayed it on the front-end. I made another one where it’s a login system. You create a username and password and the password get hashed and stored onto a mySQL database.

Do you know what the software is used for?

I think it’s used to sell audiovisual equipment

Do you know what the API does? Is it one that was build ground up or is it an external API?

No clue

[near ocean]

Should have acted like you work for her already, ez 💰💰💰💰

[hearty island]

so...lie?

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> ads

[lone saffron]

learning data structures through python vs java.

[summer roost]

either one is fine, and that doesn't seem to have anything to do with careers.

[strong sun]

which book is better?

if you need link for the books just dm me or ping me

[radiant moon]

I assume that's Amazon; you should read their return policy, because they might just let you return one simply because you don't like it. In which case, just buy both.

[dapper jay]

Can we talk?

[fringe sphinx]

Good networking tho. Don’t write it off: any recommendation or referral or connection is good. Cultivate it!

[icy oyster]

I work with python for around 3 years too, only personal small projects, I wonder what people that work for big companies and use python do that is not related to data and AI

[smoky quest]

backend, devsops, misc. automation, random desktop app, etc.

[spark cobalt]

Test

[sleek egret]

we used python for interfacing with 3rd party API's, for financial analysis, accounting data prep, for trading, for deployment and testing, etc

also some data and AI 🙂

[fickle blaze]

@sleek egret can you help me with something ?

[sleek egret]

don't ask to ask, just ask

[spark cobalt]

Lot of scripting

[sour tartan]

web applications

[hearty island]

looks like i'm improving.

[fringe sphinx]

Nice. And sounds like a good mentor.

[hearty island]

yeah he was trying to communicate that i should take my time and slow down to read the incident ticket more

now i take notes of the entire incident ticket and generate question from there. much easier.

before i was kind of just trying to do it in my head

[hearty island]

this is also a good interview story

[eternal summit]

Would anyone be interested in reviewing my resume and giving feedback

[hearty island]

sure, post an anonymized resume here. ppl will help.

[dreamy spade]

I would like to say thanks to everyone who has given me great advice over the months. This is an extremely supportive community and I appreciate everyone who tries to help others navigate in this competitive tech industry and it’s really nice being in a community who wants everyone to succeed.

[gritty rivet]

Software that is "not related to data"? I'm not sure that word means whatever you think it means.

[peak halo]

probably "not related to the statistical analysis of data"

the @inner wren bot reads (but does not store) every message on this server to make sure they don't contain any blacklisted substrings. and those messages are "data". but no one would argue that our bot is "DS/AI software"

[gritty rivet]

Right, I guess when I see "related to data" I don't automatically think "data science" specifically

[paper badge]

hey guys how do you know when you're 'ready' for a job, i know there's no set in stone way to tell, but maybe there's something that could give an idea?

[gritty rivet]

Do you have a portfolio of at least two projects? Do those projects demonstrate skills that align well with any job openings in your area?

[smoky quest]

If you are a student, that's when you graduate.
when you aren't a student is when you feel to apply to a job and you get a reply

[paper badge]

though i guess how do i know when to start applying?

[smoky quest]

Have you graduated?

[paper badge]

well i'm not in and can't go to college 😦

[smoky quest]

okay. Then feel free to post an anonymized version of your resume.
And what roles would you be applying to?

[paper badge]

another thing is, i don't have a resume 😐

[smoky quest]

that would be a good start

[paper badge]

you know what, that's a good idea lol

though one more thing, how does one create a resume? also just saying i'm 16 so i don't anything about how this should work.

[smoky quest]

I would suggest to aim for college

[paper badge]

it's a long story but i probably wont/can't go to college, any other advice you could give me?

[smoky quest]

Do everything you can to go to college.
Not going to college for a career in tech means doing life in extreme hardcore settings of difficulty

[pine sleet]

@paper badge I'm 17, here's mine if you want a starting place. Not saying it's good but having lots of personal projects and OSS contributions can help pad your otherwise (probably) lacking work experience

[paper badge]

oh hey that's pretty helpful thanks

[true harness]

easiest way is just to find a template online you like ("awesome cv" is pretty good imo) and fill it in with your stuff

[paper badge]

as stated it's almost a guarenteed that i will not go unfortunatly, though i have been griding since 14 knowing this is probably my only way to live comfortably so that may help my chances even if just by a tiny bit so hey there's still a drop of hope 😄

[paper badge]

oh will check that out thanks

[smoky quest]

Sure. Then projects are the way to go.
Just remember that each job ad will have thousands of applicants, most of them with degrees, internships, projects, etc. So you will have to work extra hard to stand a chance

[paper badge]

will be sure to keep that in mind thanks

[summer roost]

why not? What's the obstacle that blocks you?

[smoky quest]

good luck

[paper badge]

well long story short, i'm in a different country and i have not gone to school since fifth grade

[summer roost]

ah. hm. that's incredibly uncommon in my country, so the best thing that you can do might be to ask professionals with software development jobs in your country what they would do if they were you

they'll likely have better advice for how best to break into the job than we will

[smoky quest]

It may be worth investigating how to get back into the school system

[paper badge]

i've attempted to but even if i did i would come back to grade 11 and would most likely fall flat on my face on all subjects, but thanks for the advice

[paper badge]

well i'll see if i can find someone, thanks

[smoky quest]

Is there a question?

[vapid jay]

No.

[smoky quest]

We don't do ads here

[vapid jay]

This is not an ad.

[smoky quest]

Why not?

[vapid jay]

It’s invite for contributions or volunteer if any who may be interested or have ideas.

[smoky quest]

so it's an ad.
We don't do ads here and you should get permission from @severe widget first
<@&831776746206265384>

[vapid jay]

Okay, I guess we have different views on ads. Anyway, removing it now to respect the rules.

[brazen island]

Do you guys typically respond to recruiter messages on Linkedin? Personally I could't care less + most of these messages are likely automated but I don't fully know how LinkedIn etiquette works and if I'm actually supposed to respond.

[balmy spade]

I play games with them. Love it when the AWS bots roll out with their cheesy recruitment lines.

Them: blah blah blah, your profile is a perfect match!
Me: Yeah? Which part of the private profile that has no details is a match here Dan?

[twilit edge]

Are you interested in the job? Then yes otherwise no. They contacted you, you promised them nothing. Besides they are mostly mass mails

[buoyant seal]

copy pasting same written answer as for all others. with replacing name xD

[brazen island]

So doing the same they do to us, smart. I'll do that

[twilit edge]

You presume even that much work. It will be done through a list automatically

[gilded valley]

hi, thanks for reaching out. This sounds like an interesting opportunity - happy to discuss more, but it's probably best to make sure neither of us is wasting their time, could you give me a ballpark salary range beforehand?

I always reply, with something either like the above or with a generic "thanks, not interested". I don't get spammed with tonnes, but the cost of replying is so little whilst the benefit is a tiny chance at a massive salary increase

[shell narwhal]

Hello everyone!

I am an electrical engineering student. Recently, I learnt the basics of python programming. Now, I want to be a freelance python programmer to earn some cheap cash in my leisure. What should I do now? It feels like I do not have any clue.

[near ocean]

mfw when i only get ads for 10+ year senior roles
Why cant bots read smh, chatgippity needs to advance some more

[shell narwhal]

If it is not that tedious then I will not mind. However, can you give a better option please?

[gritty rivet]

Just get a normal student job or internship

[delicate flax]

can people who don't have a career yet discuss here?

[tender frost]

If it's still career-related, sure

[delicate flax]

alright

[shell narwhal]

Internship?
Human resource intership I suppose?

[shell narwhal]

Everything is about career. If career is lost then everything is lost.

[delicate flax]

I want to become a programmer but I keep thinking that I will not make it (which I probably wont) and the fact that I struggle with some things at the moment doesn't help

[delicate flax]

ik

[gritty rivet]

Are you in high school or what?

[delicate flax]

I will be when summer is over

[shell narwhal]

What kind of things you are struggling with?
Many people want to become a programmer without any life long goal.

I know people who did not pursue the life of a programmer while being really good at programming.

[delicate flax]

some programming exercises

[gritty rivet]

Then you have a lot of time, don't worry! Explore whatever interests you but get good grades and prepare for university. If you can get some internship experience in high school that's excellent but by no means required

[shell narwhal]

Trends blind a person's passion. If you are really into things that you truly like then then let them go out of your hand.

[shell narwhal]

We all struggle with things. Just find a tutor or coach who can guide you and give you timly feedback.

[delicate flax]

I do get good grades but I still don't think its enough

[gritty rivet]

Programming is hard. Learning feels like a struggle. Persistence matters more than intelligence. You're starting very early. You will do fine as long as you don't give up

[delicate flax]

there is no one to help me

[sharp lily]

I'm in university but I managed to build experience in backend development. I use Django and express.js... I don't have much working experience though so I optimize my personal projects.

[kindred spade]

How to get started with python and what to learn for red cybersecurity?

[delicate flax]

that last one will be a tough one

[shell narwhal]

Well you have to find one. There is always someone to help you.

[shell narwhal]

W3 school and books.

[kindred spade]

thx

What books tho? 😅

[gritty rivet]

It sounds like you need emotional counselling more than career advice. You are expressing a lot of doubts about yourself.

[gritty rivet]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[shell narwhal]

Fluent python and An introduction to computer science.

[kindred spade]

Okay

[delicate flax]

I guess

[shell narwhal]

Hey buddy, Could you please tell me some types of internship and student jobs? Please.

[gritty rivet]

I personally find the idea of growth mindset vs fixed mindset very helpful when I'm struggling with work or discouraged by failures. https://thelearnerlab.com/growth-mindset/

[gritty rivet]

Look at job sites. Indeed, LinkedIn and if you're in college Handshake. I don't know what country you are in but these are the most popular ones in the US

[delicate flax]

alright ill read it

is it good to have someone as a standard ?

[tender frost]

Not really. You should be comparing yourself to your past self. Not someone else

Because the other person is likely going to keep improving too, which means you're "forever" behind, and feel like you've not improved

Comparing your knowledge now to a few months ago etc. is much more realistic, and a better measure of your improvement because you're in complete control of it (you can't control how much someone else improves by)

[delicate flax]

What if the other person is already great and can't improve more?

[fringe sphinx]

I just want to tell you that you’re not alone. Imposter syndrome, self doubt, etc are very common in technical fields: perhaps because everyone else seems to know so much more than us. Talk to people (or stick around pydis), and don’t measure yourself by other people. And talking to a professional is very helpful.

If you look at the Reddit programming, csmajors, and learn programming subreddits, you’ll see it’s filled with people doubting their ability. I think self-doubt is healthy (if kept in check).

[tender frost]

There's no such thing as "can't learn more" btw.

I've been doing Python for almost 10 years and only this week found out that abstract classes are a thing (TypeScript) and exist in python too

[twilit edge]

10 years here. Just found out about the built in resource module for setting script memory thresholds

[tender frost]

Even Guido (the creator of Python) doesn't know everything. It's just not possible

[fringe sphinx]

I think Python-general has an unhealthy habit of code golfing a simple question from a beginner: I’m guilty too. Like, just solve a problem with if’s and loops, rather than pull up a library function

[gritty rivet]

Choosing a fixed mindset is exactly what you're doing here. You may be a bad judge of your own abilities. Assume you can do better with more effort and you almost certainly will.

[tender frost]

The main difference between a Jr and Sr is often just that a Sr knows where to look to find things that they don't know. Whereas a Jr will just ask the Sr

[fringe sphinx]

I find the seniors are not worried about saying ‘I don’t know’.

[tender frost]

Knowing how to search for things, read documentation, etc. is probably the most important part of programming

[twilit edge]

And making sure it's easier enough for the next poor bastard dealing with your code to read!

[delicate flax]

The person that I have as a standard is Gabe Newell. And the person that inspired me to become a programmer was Markus Persson

[fringe sphinx]

But what about my job security?

[twilit edge]

Not too easy 😉

[fringe sphinx]

What year/grade are you?

[twilit edge]

Learn to walk before comparing yourself to titans. Besides, these people will have written shitty code before

[delicate flax]

I will be in the first year of highschool after summer. Why do you ask?

[gilded valley]

I think this is not even close to accurate - there are plenty of juniors who will plough ahead assuming they know when they don't, or who will do a bad job of figuring things out, or who will spend 5 weeks working on figuring out something that a colleague could explain in an hour - all of these are just as likely as a junior going and asking a senior for help

and there are plenty of seniors who are happy to lean on others who already have the expertise rather than duplicating said expertise - this can still be construed as "just asking the sr"

(there are also plenty of senior devs who are senior only in terms of job title, not in terms of skill, and behave otherwise exactly the same as a junior dev)

[quartz igloo]

Does anyone want a friend?

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, then you’re in great shape! Starting -any- coding at this age is great. Don’t even worry about taking a break: a little learning over a long time is better than a lot of learning over a little time.

Many computer science majors don’t program until their first year of college.

[true harness]

(something like 1/3 of CS freshman)

[delicate flax]

Yeah but they have talent

[fringe sphinx]

Why do you say that?

[hearty island]

they worked at it. if you work at it too, you can do it.

[fringe sphinx]

University is four years long for a reason.

[hearty island]

anyways i'm going to go do some more exam prep. c'ya guys

[fringe sphinx]

And even then, we still call graduates ‘junior engineers’; not as an insult, but because they’re still learning

[delicate flax]

Persson made Minecraft which is one of the most famous games all time and Newell is dominating the industry with steam and he created the best VR game ever Half-Life Alyx wich is the only VR game with a 10/10 rating

[delicate flax]

In my country university is 3 years

Oh wait I mean highschool

[fringe sphinx]

Notch is perhaps an exception: but his success had to do with the cleverness and aesthetics of Minecraft: it wasn’t a terribly impressive piece of software. It was just a damn good idea that caught fire.

Newell’s an excellent engineering manager: like Thomas Edison, he has harnessed teams of developers to deliver great products and ecosystem.

(Surely he’s a great engineer too)

But everyone had humble roots. And of the millions of software engineers, you can’t measure yourself against the pinnacle.

[delicate flax]

I guess

[true harness]

1/3 of CS freshman do not have programming experience. by the end of the first semester, there's no discernible difference between people who programmed before college, and those that didn't

[gritty rivet]

Interesting.... I'm curious if you saw some specific study thay found this or just your experience somehow?

[dense wolf]

i want to be an software dev

🙂

[true harness]

a few professors commonly cite this figure. granted, it's not really an actual study, but i think it's reasonable. the fact there are any at all is pretty surprising to me

[buoyant seal]

there is no limit to today system complexities
it takes big companies full of diversed different job roles to move big stuff
literally impossible to learn even any considerable large percentage of stuff in whole career lifetime.

the only one who can't improve more is ignorant person, which thinks he knows everything, but in reality he does not know even 0.1%.

P.S. closest people who reached knowing a lot, genius people which built for example Linux core from zero and maintained its development through its all lifecycle, like Linus Torvald
But even they know only fraction. They know only stuff they developed.

[fringe vale]

is someone making online money here

[hearty island]

doesn't sound relevant to careers

[delicate flax]

I see

[fringe vale]

it is bro

[gritty rivet]

My job is 100% remote, does that count?

If you're looking for something more casual you can look at sites like Upwork and Fiverr but if you're not bringing advanced experience you'll be lucky to make $5/hour

[sleek egret]

$5/hr is pretty good in some places

[fringe vale]

Yes it us count , so u r a freelancer?

[gritty rivet]

No, I have a regular job

[open ingot]

Guys any good resource for learning dbms

[potent niche]

I need a coach, I am a beginning in python , please anyone to help

[sage relic]

I am currently learning Reactjs and then i'll explore other frameworks also like Nextjs and then backend and will make good projects both in frontend and backend. But I am passionate about AI/ML also and I want to put one or two project based on AI/ML in my resume. Basically I'll be applying for software engineering job. So will it be a good choice to start learning AI/ML along with full stack development? Considering I just have to give more time to full stack development first as i wanna get an internship in that as soon as i can.

[fringe sphinx]

Not clear what your question is, but: that’s a lot of stuff to learn but people follow many different paths

So, I don’t think you can go wrong as long as you’re always learning.

[smoky quest]

What's your background?

[smoky quest]

You should check out #databases

[leaden sigil]

hello

how goes ir

[small ivy]

Hello Sir.

[gritty rivet]

Very long article I haven't made it the whole way through. But I found it relevant to some typical questions here so I thought I would share: http://paulgraham.com/greatwork.html

[small ivy]

Folks anyone has new suggestion to work on any beginner project for python for data analyst field?

[fringe sphinx]

Have you done anything with the iris dataset?

[small ivy]

Well! the answer is "No"

[fringe sphinx]

It’s a good intro dataset to learn various techniques: https://scikit-learn.org/stable/auto_examples/datasets/plot_iris_dataset.html

And https://thatascience.com/learn-machine-learning/iris-dataset/

[unreal turtle]

should i add ap csp on my courses i took, if im a cs major?

[true harness]

no

[unreal turtle]

why

[true harness]

it's not relevant (hs stuff never is, pretty much). it doesn't focus on a specific topic (compared to if you had a class like, "relational database modelling")

[unreal turtle]

its still a cs class though

[true harness]

well, i guess the first question should be what you're listing this on

[unreal turtle]

never relevent is wrong, dont use that word

[true harness]

"pretty much"

[unreal turtle]

under courses, with all my cs classes

[unreal turtle]

i disagree some things could be relevent bro

[true harness]

yeah but what are you listing the courses on. linkedin? resume?

[unreal turtle]

i am listing it on linkedin, and should i put the college equivalent of that course on linkedin?

[true harness]

do whatever you want tbh. it just looks like you want people to validate your opinion ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[unreal turtle]

can you answer my question?

[true harness]

i did, "do whatever you want"

[unreal turtle]

thats a terrible response, youre no help

[true harness]

/shrug well, before that i said "no", and you didn't like it, so

[unreal turtle]

that wasnt my question before, i was asking if i should put the college equivalent of the course instead of AP

[fringe sphinx]

Nobody (imo) really is going to care about what courses you took, tbh (with the exception of some specialized upper class courses). I don’t really look at that when reviewing resumes/etc.

[unreal turtle]

im very surprised, because i thought some places look at courses to see what theyll test during the interview

[fringe sphinx]

I might look for, say, a db or ml course. But don’t really care about majority of courses.

[smoky quest]

most companies will expect something along the lines of what a typical bs in cs will look. Keep in mind that different schools will have slightly different curriculum and emphasis. And that's even worse if you take into account international employees

[sleek egret]

recruiting is hard

[vapid jay]

I have a tricky question for the ones who work with python for some years, Im studyig python for 6 months and I don't think I got myselft where I was wanting. The real thing is, the money left from my last job is about to end. What is the best way (not the easy) to get my first job as dev? Here in Brazil even intership is requiring EXPERIENCE, so, I would love some advice to what to do. Where I can expent my time without that sensation that I 'm losing or wasting that time or thinkg that I'm not good enough for that althogh I live what I'm doing.

[native narwhal]

yeah its hard mate, and will only get harder, companies will hire only competent people, internships require for you to gain experience on your own pretty much (well you are not alone i mean you can cooperate with discord buddies follow youtube projects gain that advantage and go get the internship when you feel competent

btw there are more python jobs than lets say JavaScript jobs WHICH IS WIERD on Indeed at leats so i'd stick with python

[serene kindle]

Why is it so hard to get entry level jobs with 10 years of experience

Like how are new grads getting jobs and not me lol

[near ocean]

Do you have 10 years experience? In what and why are you applying to entry level stuff

[gilded valley]

if you want to, it might be worth including a couple of courses.

Skip stuff like "programming 101", but try to include the courses that have something potentially useful about them - cloud computing, data science, UX - including generic courses like intro to programming, or things that are purely based in theory like "crafting interpreters", just adds noise

[pastel thunder]

my degree is
major:mechanical
minor: ai and robo
how when i am asked in form about my specialisation
what to write? considering i can only choose one domain.

i apply for ai job, writing Mechanical would be a negative point.

[night needle]

Can you master Python successfully, when you self-learn without courses?

[open cradle]

For sure you can. Main question is how companies evaluate your expertise if your CV only says you are self taught

[night needle]

Im still 13, I've decided to learn python for taking the AI course in the future..

[open cradle]

Oh. Then you have many opportunities. It could be great if those projects that you do, you upload them into your portfolio (github repo) so that you can prove what you are capable of. That's something I missed in the past. But it also depends on the country/culture it has about these projects

But this is more in the long term, so do not stress about it

[night needle]

thanks, r u a self taught programmer

[open cradle]

Half and half. For Python I learnt most of it on my own

[night needle]

So, it doesn't really matter if you learn it yourself for now right?

[open cradle]

In terms of knowledge, it doesnt. Nowadays there are plenty of free resources in youtube or in PEPs. They even cover more in deep what you can find in paid courses such as in Udemy

This is just my opinion of course. Some people might differ

[night needle]

Alright, thanks :))

[buoyant seal]

It does. Achieving job in AI/ML without at least bachelor's degree or better even masters degree at minimum is going to be hundred times harder. Some companies even hire PhD people only for their data scientists positions

[open cradle]

I agree. I forgot to mention this. If we talk about learning "base" Python, it does not matter (to me). When I say this, I refer to software architecture, production ready level, testing and the python insights. But when it comes to math-based jobs, they still require good academic background

I wanted to add this as my comment might look missleading

[buoyant seal]

In terms of learning as hobby, sure.
But when we refer to software architecture and production ready code programming for the purpose of job seeking, it is again most preferable to have at minimum bachelor's degree CS degree

Analytics show that good at least 80% or more of people working in it, do have degree

Difference only that bachelor's degree is enough in this usage case. No must need to go crazy for next levels

[open cradle]

I have a master's but they never taught me almost anything about that. But I learnt lots from the math point of view. We learnt to make python based code for robotics but the quality of the code looked from a person that codes as a hobby (no good use of python functions, no production ready level, bad architecture...). In my personal experience I mainly learnt all of these during my first internship + plenty of hours as self taught learner.

Again, this is just my experience and for my specific field. There might be plenty of different cases 🙂

I think best combination is combining both

[buoyant seal]

me too (having master's degree too). we are victims of same education then 🤣
but during bachelor's program at least we learned DSA, OOP, SQL, Parallelsm, and had different other subjects which made us using programming to solve problems (including programming Regressional Analysis, solving transporting problems or even neural networks. My favourite one was programming Computer Graphics). It all summed up to a lot of practice that helped to get used to programming and learning how to learn in order to make solution.
this gives tremendous advantage over new people just in terms of how much we coded Anything of different complexity for years in university.
People going over courses have zero ability to do anything that is not covered by course very very often usually (because they were just spoon feeded during their education https://www.javaprogrammingforums.com/cafe/9544-problem-spoon-feeding.html). University graduates are independent goers.

[open cradle]

That's right. I guess your career differs from mine in the sense that you studied Computer Science (or at least more software oriented). I studied Electronics Engineering and learnt most of the software concepts as a self taught learner. Deapite that, I got all my software-based jobs and I think I am not missing any important skill. That's why I tend to give more importance to what you learn on your own. However, even if my degree was not fully software-oriented, I probably would not have gotten those software-related jobs without my degree. So in the end I used my bachelor as a "trust me, you can hire me" but in the job I used and applied most of what I learnt on my own

[fringe sphinx]

We debate this a lot, whether the bachelors is just a sieve to filter people of a certain type, or whether the education process is the important part (learning to learn), or whether the substance matters. I land on the first two being the most important, but some of the substance matters; mathematical maturity and algorithmic thinking are important to develop.

[sleek egret]

yar

[hearty island]

i really hope interviews start to flood in after i get my CAPM

[bitter urchin]

What kind of internships were you doing?

[sleek egret]

better universities rarely spend a lot of time teaching students the mechanics of programming. that's a trade-level skill and it's assumed that students can pick it up on their own. after all, if HS kids can do it, why can't they?

[open cradle]

I did two. One in a industrial robotics based company and a second one for autonomy flying drones. Both R&D

[open cradle]

I agree as long as they point it as something important to learn. Because I have met people that develop code that did not know about unit testing or linting concepts

[sleek egret]

indeed, but you can pick that up in a days hours on the job

the skills if not the discipline

[open cradle]

Well, I think doing proper testing takes more time 😅 but the time it takes is just matter of opinions.

[sleek egret]

it's one of those things that's easy to articulate but hard to actually do (consistently)

[open cradle]

I totally agree!

[near remnant]

I work remotely and company wants me to go to the office once every month, just to meet with my team members. Should I quit this job or I'm overreacting?

[leaden jasper]

It's hard to say without more information. How far is the office? Are you going to be reimbursed for this work travel if your position is explicitly remote only? Is there flexibility for times/days? Is this being manadated by your manager/higher-ups or is it just a "it would be nice if..." policy?

[near remnant]

Office is 20-25 minutes away. No, it's a Wednesday, once, every month. As far as I know on the first week of the months.

I mean, I'm fine with it. One time a month is nothing basically, just yeah

[near ocean]

Youre overreacting

[near remnant]

Yeah probably

[true harness]

50 minutes a month?

[near remnant]

Yeah

I don't even have to work on those days, we are just going to talk 😆

[balmy spade]

Nifty that your company is willing with such a small travel distance. I had to fight rather agressively for my wfh status and I have a 4-7 hour daily commute otherwise.

[near remnant]

Yeah I guess, I'm a crybaby for no reason

[balmy spade]

That wasn't my point, but you do you there. xD

[remote terrace]

Hello guys. I am a capable python developer that can: print (preferably "Hello World"), make while and for loops, if and else (perhaps even elif if the payment is handsome) statements and much more! I am willing to do all of the things listed (preferably printing "Hello World") for 10 euro so I can purchase a video game off Steam. Can anyone help out?

[near ocean]

No, this isnt a recruitment channel or a shitposting channel

[near remnant]

What was ur point?

[balmy spade]

That I was happy to see your company allows for wfh arrangements even within what most would consider close distance.

[near ocean]

My offices are like 3 miles from home but i've only been there once to pick up work laptop
Not commuting for a second if i can help it

I lied, its 4.8miles

[near remnant]

Yeah, I mean, its fine I guess. Our whole team is fully remote, but we will go to the office once every month, just to have some thoughts together and talk about projects and such.

So, 1 time a month in the office... Well, I will survive I guess. 💀😂

25 minutes with bus. 10-15 with car.

Any advice for me?

Maybe this one human interaction per month will do a lot for me:D

[fringe sphinx]

My advice is: embrace it. Teams are better when there’s some chemistry, shared experience, interactions that aren’t purely work. It’ll help your career in many ways, and who knows, maybe you’ll need a referral or recommendation in the future from one of them.

[near remnant]

Yeah I mean, once a month is nothing right

[fringe sphinx]

What are you worried about? Social anxiety stuff?

But yah, once a month is nothing.

[near remnant]

I don't know, I'm overreacting and stressing about everything and I even went to a psychologist once to talk about this.

[vapid jay]

I want to become an indie game dev, but I barely know how to code, and everytime I get inspired and try to learn more coding, I end up getting serious migraines. How can I achieve my dreams if this keeps happening?

[small geode]

Sounds to me like the company just wants everybody to keep each other in mind and have that in-person connection. It's definitely different than just seeing someone behind a screen all the time. I would value it as Billy said.

[small geode]

Not sure how to comment on your difficulties focusing other than maybe speaking with a doctor to see if there's something underlying. Keep in mind indie game dev needs funding

[fringe sphinx]

I’m no psychologist, but I’ll tell you that social anxiety is very common among engineers. I bet your peers are feeling the same. Don’t know if that helps at all, but know that you’re not alone.

[vapid jay]

I have Godot engine and Unity, as well as RPG Maker MV. So I already bought the things I feel I need. What else needs funding?

[near remnant]

Yeah, i love my team and they just want a good chit chat once every month in person, talk about future and projects, ideas, etc. So basically I go in, talk, coffee, eat, work a little and go home and go back to full remote for a month again. Doesn't sound bad, does it.

[small geode]

Your housing if you don't have a job to maintain it, marketing, publishing the game, server hosting if it's multiplayer, the list can go on

[vapid jay]

I'm a stay at home parent and I can't work anyway. So my housing and all that's being taken care of by my spouse

I see the other points u made that I didn't know

[small geode]

No, that's not the end of the world. I fully support remote work being the new thing but I personally dislike seeing everyone up in arms if you're asked to come in very infrequently to your nearest office

[fringe sphinx]

That sounds incredibly healthy, to me.

[vapid jay]

Same it sounds so wholesome

[small geode]

Happy to hear that at least. You can pursue it easier that way, and deal with the other obstacles as they get closer

[vapid jay]

Alright thank u. In the meantime, how can I deal with the migraines I get?

[near remnant]

Thanks guys, now I feel better. Idk why, sometimes I can get lost in my thoughts for no reason...

[small geode]

I'm definitely no doctor, so I can't comment on that

[daring whale]

ask a doctor

[vapid jay]

It's ok! Happens to the best of us. Ur only human

Alrighty thanks guys

[fringe sphinx]

Probably why you’re (I expect) a good engineer!

[zinc sierra]

brain damage. its the quickest way to (probably) get rid of migraines

[vapid jay]

Eh my brains already damaged lol 😂

[open cradle]

I get them too and the only thing I can work with is prevention: avoiding flashes and reflections with the sun, resting well, pauses after using screen for long... etc

[near remnant]

Thanks

[brave matrix]

Hey guys, I want to try to give out my resume to tech companies in person, how can I get a list of all the addresses to go in my city?

[summer roost]

that doesn't seem like a great idea to me.

they're not going to be set up to deal with paper resumes. They're expecting people to apply through their website or with digital resumes forwarded from agencies

[sleek egret]

yar

[true harness]

the most that will probably happen is that people will tell you to apply online

[open swallow]

Anyone mind doing a resume review? Would be nice to get an interview again lol

[open cradle]

It looks nice. To be honest I do not see anything I would change. I am not a big fan of the plain format but I have heard that that it is popular specially in the USA or for those companies that use automatic pdf parsers to extract information from the pdf

[open swallow]

Thank you, yeah I made one in gdocs before which looked a bit nicer but a few people suggested I switch it to this one

[open cradle]

Sometimes I like adding quick key topics so that people that are not 100% software oriented (i.e human resources) understand what you are capable of. For example topics like (multiprocessing, control algorithms....). Same as you did with "skills" but more generic maybe. Again this is what I personally do as my jobs are not 100% software

[open swallow]

Found a jr dev role in Sep 2022, and got "laid off" in Nov 2022 (was fired while still on probation for being too slow because I couldn't learn their legacy codebase from 2006 fast enough), but I just told friends I was laid off because I was embarrassed of the truth

Have had like 3 interviews since then 🤦‍♂️

[open cradle]

Dont worry. Getting out of the "junior" hole is a hard and discouraging adventure sometimes. Probation period are a little bit scary sometimes...

[open swallow]

Yeah and I'm still completing uni so I kinda got lucky with landing a full time (non internship) role anyways

But there was no point adding it to the resume, pretty worthless experience

[open cradle]

Your CV still looks quite complete and better than average ones (and for sure than mine). Specially because of all the side projects. Good luck with it!

[open swallow]

Thasnk you, few interviews I got I mucked because... leetcode

[celest kite]

Tbh I low-key hate when a candidate bolds every word that pertains to a tech stack or tech keyword

[open swallow]

I mean recruiters have short attention spans, lol, I didnt have em bolded in first place but people told me I should bolden them

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[celest kite]

Maybe it's what the recruiters want to see. But when it gets to my desk I just find it annoying

[open cradle]

Me too. I perfectly understand you. Many companies outsource the recruiting to companies that only apply leetcode problems to candidates when many of the times that's not even the type of job you are going to do

[open swallow]

True, the one internship I have on my resume it was a small company with like 15 people and my friend worked there so he put in a word for me, his boss sends me an email and I had to write a matrix multiplication algo and email him the github gist link so I plagiarized most of it 🤣 if it was a live coding sesh no way I would have gotten it

Found the code lol @open cradle

def matmul(a, b):
    rows_a, cols_a = len(a), len(a[0])
    rows_b, cols_b = len(b), len(b[0])

    # The number of columns in the A need to match the number of rows in B, otherwise we cannot multiply.
    if cols_a != rows_b:
        raise Exception('Incorrect dimensions.')

    # This array is going to hold the final result for us.
    # It's filled with 0s initially and then we replace out the values later.
    result = [[0 for row in range(cols_b)] for col in range(rows_a)]

    # In order to calculate, we are going to take each row from matrix A, and then multiply it with each column from matrix B, and then we sum up the product.
    # To illustrate, say we had:
    #
    # A = [[3, 1, 4]]
    #
    # B = [[4, 3],
    #      [2, 5],
    #      [6, 8]]
    #
    # We are going to have 3(4) + 1(2) + 4(6) = 38, and then 3(3) + 1(5) + 4(8) = 46.
    # Our resultant matrix is going to be [[38, 46]] in this scenario.
    for i in range(rows_a):
        for j in range(cols_b):
            for k in range(cols_a):
                result[i][j] += a[i][k] * b[k][j]

    return result

    # This algorithm can be written in a single line also, but I chose not to for the sake of writing readable code:
    # return [[sum(x * y for x, y in zip(row, col)) for col in zip(*b)] for row in a]

a = [[3, 1, 4]]
b = [[4, 3], [2, 5], [6, 8]]

print(matmul(a, b)) 

[open cradle]

Well then you were lucky with this question. Or maybe it is because I did many many problems from leetcode 😅

But doing it live is much different

[open swallow]

Yeah I def got lucky

But the team there was cool, I messaged the boss a few months ago asking if I could get a return offer but they had no openings

[true harness]

I do agree with jah the bolding is a bit excessive. too much bold is annoying and makes it meaningless

[fringe sphinx]

Can you say more than just ‘used Python’ in your experience? What database? For projects, any git links (not important, but I typically see a git link next to each project? For skills: list the in strength order, it alphabetical.

Agree that bolding is a little much. Italicize, maybe

[open swallow]

Project titles are hyperlinks/clickable, and yeah wanted to say something besides used Python but wasn't sure how to word it

[true harness]

I would say the bullet points should include more about impact, rather than simply what you did

[fringe sphinx]

Try us: how would you explain technically what you did to another developer?

[open swallow]

So the clients were large retailers like Walmart, Home Depot etc. and the customized reports contained information about which of their products sold well, which ones not so well

[fringe sphinx]

What packages did you use? What database? What report engine? Did you write in sql or in an ORM?

[open swallow]

Pandas and matplotlib, MSSQL, and no ORM, not sure what you mean by report engine

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, see, put that stuff in there. Much better than just saying ‘used Python’: Used pandas and matplotlib …

[open swallow]

Hmm, gonna see if chatgpt can generate a BP based on that info 😝

[open swallow]

Other 3 bps are good?

@fringe sphinx

Generated customized reports for major retailers, utilizing pandas, matplotlib, and MSSQL to analyze product sales performance, facilitating data-driven decision-making and optimization of inventory management strategies.

Should I include Python in there or is that kind of a given based on pandas and plt lol

[fringe sphinx]

I love it, it tells me a lot in the most important space: most recent experience. But, maybe a bit long. My preference would be to drop the facilitating stuff, but would be curious what other people say. You should say Python too, recruiters will keyword search.

It’s a good resume, you should get some good hits!

[open swallow]

Barely any openings in Toronto atm (internships or entry level) but I guess market is fucked everywhere

[sleek egret]

not to worry, things will almost certainly be much better in a year or so

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I’ve heard that all around. I think of it as more a traffic jam than a systemic problem

It’s funny, I’m about to start hiring again and I’m excited to finally have an employers job market for first time in a long time

[sleek egret]

the downturn hasn't lasted long enough to reset people's expectations by much

[open swallow]

Would love if I can land a Python role again because I hate writing Java or C# for school, makes me want to stab my eyes out

[sleek egret]

except maybe new entrants, I guess

[fringe sphinx]

Data engineering and science is a good place to target, especially in financial services

[open swallow]

Honestly full stack is probably my endgame because I actually kind of enjoy (Tailwind)CSS/JS 😬

[sleek egret]

that should be your start 🙂

[open swallow]

Don't you also need masters for data engineering/ML, I'm terrible at math, barely passed calc 1 and 2, didn't take linear alg because it wasn't mandatory, and have no plans to pursue education beyond my bachelors

I passed calc2 on the third try...

[sleek egret]

then you have two choices: 1) learn math better or 2) go into a software field that doesn't require much math

[fringe sphinx]

I was terrible at math -class- but I’m good at math.

But; you don’t need a masters for DE. Data science is more the math/stats side of it, DE is often very similar to what you’ve described in your internship (but with more complexities/layers)

[exotic cairn]

is there a channel for help in French?

[smoky quest]

nope

@exotic cairn people will be more than happy with your question in english

[exotic cairn]

Good !

I trying things to fix it does not change can you help me ?

[smoky quest]

You are in #career-advice , which is about careers.
You would be better served asking in #python-discussion or checking out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[exotic cairn]

Ohh sorry thank you I go to this channel 🙂

[unreal turtle]

which looks better ai research or ai research assistant?

[rugged hinge]

Why do you’ve the same exact function twice?

Don’t answer me here but just saying

Wait it’s not nvm then

[exotic cairn]

It's an old command that allows you to unmute if I'm not mistaken but it doesn't work anymore

[inner grove]

What you guys think about 12 hours job? The told me they want me for 8-9 hours job but instead i think about 12 hours or 2 full shifts like 16-18 hours to get double the money the pay me the work is captian at cyber cafe i work at that job before for 6 months
I need advice for who older than me

[peak halo]

Captain at a cyber cafe? That doesn't sound like the kind of job for which we provide advice.

[inner grove]

Its like the guy who have a tab in his hands and takes orders from people
What you think about the time=money that my question

[peak halo]

If it's not a developer-like position, this isn't the place to ask.

[inner grove]

Oh i got it so where i can ask?

[peak halo]

I'm not sure

[inner grove]

Thanks for you time btw

[dreamy spade]

Can anyone recommend me a briefcase to buy for a work programming laptop?

Which is better for a work laptop? A briefcase or backpack?

[peak halo]

@dreamy spade no one actually uses briefcases anymore. A backpack will do.

Maybe people who work in professions that involve a lot of paper use briefcases. But they're for paper. Not laptops.

[eternal mist]

Can yall give me a roadmap for my career. I want to work as a software engineer specializing in AI specifically deep learning. I also want to work on more image based AI applications
Can you also tell me the required schooling and what type of classes I should be looking for to learn this

[peak halo]

You'll probably need a master's in computer science. At least a bachelor's for sure. And you'll want to make sure the programs you apply to cater to students who are interested in AI

[peak halo]

also, deep learning for images is pretty advanced, so you might not even get to touch that topic until you're a semester or two into grad school (and not at all during undergrad). it's a good area to go into, though.

[eternal mist]

I’m willing to stay in school for a while, but I just want a plan for now

I have a friend who works for nvidia and they are always hiring for this type of specialty

[peak halo]

that's sort of their thing, so that's unsurprising. I think there are other signals that image AI is in demand, but hiring at Nvidia isn't it.

[eternal mist]

Cybersecurity is my second option, would you think that this industry is worth it?

[fringe sphinx]

What grade/level are you in today?

[eternal mist]

right now im a senior in highschool

[fringe sphinx]

University next year? I assume you’re planning computer science?

[peak halo]

Also a good field. You need a computer science degree either way.

[fringe sphinx]

But in general, agree with Stelercus. The important thing is to shape your undergrad experience through course selection, projects and extracurricular learning. Picking a school with a strong computer vision or deep learning/ai program will help, perhaps through selecting the appropriate faculty advisor (if an option)

[undone lantern]

do u know where can i study cybersecurity?

[proven crest]

I'd like to start to diversify my programming knowledge to include a statically typed OOP language. My company recently merged with another company and a lot of their software s written in C++. I've heard C++ is quite dated now, and has a steep curve to it. Can anyone suggest a good language to learn that would be useful for the foreseeable future?

The one I've been thinking about is Java, I'm not sure about its learning curve or future, however as a kid I played a lot of Runescapes so I think I would enjoy a project of writing a Runescape bot which would be a nice goal. I've also heard about Scala which seems pretty new but from my understanding is more data oriented. C# again I've heard is quite outdated but has a smaller learning curve. Any advise?

Also am I correct in assuming that once fundamentals of statically typed OOP are understood and competence in one language is gained, most other OOP languages would only have a syntactical barrier to them?

[fringe sphinx]

For statically typed, Java is an easy transition from Python. But, to be a ‘complete’ engineer, I’d recommend c++. Learning it has broader benefits than OO, and garners more respect (ie: it’s considered harder, more fundamental, and a good foundational language)

[proven crest]

Awesome concise answer, thanks 🙏

[celest kite]

If you wanted "more modern" you could always go the rust route

[coarse jackal]

finding job is haaaard, why is that

[near ocean]

Which part are you finding hard

[coarse jackal]

most jobs are django or web development 😐

[white relic]

Finding a job is essentially competitive, unlike what many people experience in school, there's not a minimum threshold of competence beyond which success is more or less automatic.
Careers involve lots of soft skills that students don't tend to prioritize learning (I know I didn't).
Also there are many many decisions to make in a job search to which the answer may be more or less arbitrary, but every one narrows the field a little more. Are you looking only in your country/state/region/etc., what salary would you accept, what job titles do you search for, etc.

[hearty island]

i would tailor your resume to fit a role

[coarse jackal]

is there some other website with jobs? I check python.org/jobs occasionally but its not so popular

I tried upwork, but im too lazy to extend my ID and they have closed my account 😂

[white relic]

Several of my coworkers were hired from LinkedIn posts

There's lots of websites though

[true harness]

indeed works also, though some people don't like it

[white relic]

I used indeed to find the names of companies that are hiring and then I'd look for the job posting on the company careers site

[fringe sphinx]

Im actually curious what the new grads are using/look at: is any platform considered best?

[white relic]

rather than asking what new grads are using, you should ask what companies are using to hire new grads

my answer is linkedin

[coarse jackal]

Hiring is sometimes rng.

[white relic]

It's a numbers game

[fringe sphinx]

I’m an employer.

(Hence, I’m curious what my target is using)

[white relic]

Oh, can't help you there 😄

[gilded valley]

LI, because it makes it so easy to apply

[hearty island]

indeed has a lot of easy apply. not a big fan of it

[quasi kite]

so coooool

[graceful mason]

I've had a laptop backpack since starting uni and it's great - there's also quite a few that can be used as a backpack or a shoulder bag (aka modern briefcase) if you want

[hearty island]

i bring a backpack and i don't code. project manager

[summer salmon]

LinkedIn is the best place I guess even though I am unable to find one but still I am trying to do

[native narwhal]

I have LinkedIn Premium, check out how many people apply for a job...

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, that’s good to know. I tried to hire off LinkedIn years ago and it was terrible. But, different market.

[thorn lotus]

I am taking some interviews and getting asked to do some things. Algorithms aside, what are some good practices or things you like to see in a code that might improve chances? Formatting, comments, etc...

[peak halo]

if they ask you to do live coding during an interview, the problems won't be complicated enough to warrant having comments. Other than solving the problem, I guess I'd want to see type annotations on function signatures?

[ripe ridge]

How do you send a huge python code in discord? it appears there's a word limit to how much i can send

[thorn lotus]

Right now it's not live coding. I have a task to do and I believe I've already solved the problem how they wanted, tried to write clean, concise code and commented it. I was wondering what things are usually seen as "great" and what are the "no-no's"

[sleek egret]

What's important is to 1) be sure you understand the problem clearly. ask questions if you're in the least unsure about something. 2) talk about what you're thinking and what you're doing. the interviewers cannot read your mind. 3) don't be afraid to experiment while you code, just be explicit that you're "trying something out".

the point of live coding is two fold. 1) to ensure that you haven't lied about your skills and 2) to see how you think through problems

[hearty island]

fuck

seems like project management jobs are drying up

hopefully it's not like this in september

[silver jacinth]

I don't even live in the usa

[hearty island]

lmao, yeah. linkedin search results are pretty dumb imo

[blazing igloo]

Hello, I was wondering if anyone can give me any good projects to work on that I could add to my resume?

[hearty island]

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[silver jacinth]

just build programs you would like

[fringe sphinx]

And fwiw, when I ask a live question, it’s not because I want to test how smart you are; it’s because I want to see how you think and collaborate. So, process and communication is often more important than result

[fringe sphinx]

Don’t be too clever (avoid code golfing a solution), comment your methods properly (including parameters), avoid overly complex methods; break into simple… and delete commented code. Maybe drop todos for things that could be improved. Definitely have test cases.

[true harness]

tests, logging, CI, docs. db migration scripts if applicable

[open cradle]

Numbers are much higher than that. I applied for a position that was supposed to have 600-900 applicants according to LinkedIn. They told me in the third stage of the interview that ~9.000 applied to the first one (of course, taking into account all channels that company had)

[thorn lotus]

I've tried doing all that except the test cases. I got a function to develop and they already provide test cases (which I can't send back even if I add more), so guess that doesn't apply for me. Will definitely comment better my methods adding input and outpu

I've added some kind of "NOTES" section at the bottom where I put some of my thoughts behind what I've done, like:

'''
NOTES: 
1. This can be done this way or that way. I've chosen this way because it makes the function extractable from the class if so desires.
2. If the files given were sorted, the code could be optimised greatly by doing...
3. etc
'''

Is this good? Should I delete it?

[twilit edge]

I would ignore the number. Most people who apply are dreadfully under qualified, trying to get visas or have massive red flags. Besides, LinkedIn numbers just show people who click apply doesn't mean they end up submitting in the end

[fringe sphinx]

I think that’s good, I’d keep it.

[thorn lotus]

Cool! Thanks!

[hearty island]

i was about to say the besides part. linkedin is pretty deceiving

[sleek egret]

so, would it be fair to say that "linkedin is base"?

[pine sleet]

based

[sleek egret]

oh, sorry

I will have to ask my nieces about this

[pine sleet]

[fringe sphinx]

I think they’ll say it’s ‘basic’

I gotta learn how to emoji better

[open cradle]

In any case, I can see here that many people are preparing for interviews. For all those people, I recommend Glassdoor in case you do not know it.

You can find specific information from the company you will be applying for. This is not also feedback about how it is to work there but also questions that are asked during the interview, how the whole process is or its difficulty. Also about the salaries for each position

[smoky quest]

yeah this is normal

[smoky quest]

glassdoor is great to get a feel.
However I would not trust their salary data as it's skewed with data from 10 years ago. And similar thing for the reviews/interviews when looking at information older than 2-3 years

[open cradle]

In my case it was accurate for all the positions I got. Ofc big companies will always have more up to date salaries and job interviews

[smoky quest]

Glad to hear that!
But chances that the people being complained about or asking the interview questions aren't there anymore (at least in that role) after 2-3 years

[dreamy spade]

Do you guys put your lunch in the same compartment of your backpack as your work laptop and headset?

[summer mortar]

Hello guys I am new here I wanted to ask whether I should start my coding journey from c language

[celest kite]

I usually smush my sandwich into my laptop processor so that it cooks a bit in the morning before lunch

[smoky quest]

It's up to you. But being on a python server, I would recommend to start with python

[summer mortar]

Ty

[smoky quest]

I would suggest to arrange your lunch and backpack in a way that is safe and does not run risk of leaking or damaging them

[summer mortar]

Is it good to start from cs50 or not?

[smoky quest]

plenty of people do that

[summer mortar]

@smoky quest bro pls tell #lounge

[smoky quest]

?

[summer mortar]

Hmm one guy is telling me not to do it since it's hard for beginners

[smoky quest]

it's free.
So give it a try and see how it goes.

https://automatetheboringstuff.com/ is also a great starter resource

[summer mortar]

Ty

[worldly ridge]

Question: i got a job offer, and i need to submit my diploma to sign my contract, but my diploma exam is this wednesday, my question is, can this job offer expire/be rescinded if maybe i get my diploma papers next week?

[true harness]

just tell them your situation, they'll probably let it cook for a little

[leaden jasper]

Yeah, let them know that you haven't received it yet, but as soon as you do you can submit it.

[true harness]

unless you lied and said you had it, in which case, oof

[open cradle]

I can see everybody recommends this. Is it for beginners?

[smoky quest]

talk about it with your future manager

[smoky quest]

yes.
That's also a reason why it's recommended to beginners. Otherwise it wouldn't be recommended to beginners 😉

[worldly ridge]

thats what i did, cant help being anxious i guess

thanks guys

[leaden jasper]

It should be okay. It's honestly probably just part of their standard process and for folks who just graduated, they're in a bit of an edge case scenario. In my experience for these situations, they're usually very understanding

[quasi kite]

I had my first interview today and I was very bad

[smoky quest]

that' s expected

[quasi kite]

but like

[smoky quest]

there is only one solution:

• Do a retro and work on where you had issues
• Do more interviews

[smoky quest]

there is no but. Everyone suck at their first interview

[quasi kite]

tkx a lot, I'll do this for sure

[fringe sphinx]

Yes, totally fine. I suggest people start programming a bit first in Python before taking cs50, but you do you

[fringe sphinx]

Oh man, I remember buying a nice suit and looking that that daily report dude (the food review guy)

[quasi kite]

Every question she asked I was like error 404, damn, is there any stuff u guys memorize or idk?

[smoky quest]

You shouldn't have to memorize the answers

[quasi kite]

I started from there also, David Malan is so coool

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, talk to them, no big deal. I had a similar issue; my university screwed up and I found out -after- I was supposed to graduate that I was short a foreign language credit

[quasi kite]

The problem is the activities, they will be very hard even for who has experience

but the classes are really easy to digest, awesome explanation for everything, you'll got everything very easy, even for me who barely knows something about english

[fringe sphinx]

What did you do after cs50?

[quasi kite]

Im at their final project and college rn

wbu?

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, I’m decades past that, just curious what path you followed.

[quasi kite]

ooh so cool

where are you from?

[fringe sphinx]

US

[quasi kite]

Cool

I have a feeling that the areas that AI is not going to completely dominate any time soon are AI itself and cybersecurity, am I right?

what do u guys think

[white relic]

AI is not about to "completely dominate" any engineering field

[open cradle]

There are many other fields. For example those that build "physical" real world engineering projects. Like aerospace fields and many robotics fields

[quasi kite]

I see

I'm so afraid of coming too late to the area

[open cradle]

Like, medical fields or embeded system for medical fields have strong guidelines about what you can do and dont. And they are not flexible at all. I doubt they allow any kind of AI so far

Same goes for autonomous cars which rely on security

[fringe sphinx]

My opinion is simply: it’s another tool. Like Google and Stackoverflow. I welcome better tools that make me more productive

[quasi kite]

for now its true

[balmy spade]

Put the fear into perspective. I'm told that farming has been around for a few years and seen significant automation of tasks. However, pretty sure it's still a viable field.

[quasi kite]

you got a nice vision too

[white relic]

LLMs are still decades away from replacing an average developer who can attend meetings, compile functional requirements, debug crap and so forth. The writing of the code isn't the hard part of making software.

[open cradle]

I put a duck as a sign of agreement

[quasi kite]

Yes but is viable for the rich, not for who is working u know?

[balmy spade]

No I don't know. Could you explain?

[quasi kite]

These tools, despite helping us a lot, saturate our area, this super productivity devalues ​​our work, however, entrepreneurs can produce more at less cost, this applies to both areas

[balmy spade]

This is happening, and has been happening, without the tools. There's little evidence that the newest AI tools are even increasing the trend.

[summer roost]

Conversely, most large companies forbid their developers from using these AI tools for their work.

[quasi kite]

At least it was happening because the media was saying that the area is better than it really is, and deluded people were entering, you know? the intrinsic value of our work decreases with AI, it is no longer just a matter of supply and demand

[summer roost]

There's significant intellectual property legal risk introduced by letting ChatGPT or even Copilot emit code that becomes part of a company's codebase

[quasi kite]

Really? Didnt know this, but how would them prove?

[open cradle]

Technically same can apply (to my understanding) with C and Python. When Python appeared, many of the tasks could be easily automatized. But in the end it just opened a new need without replacing some of the already existing ones

[summer roost]

That's only true if AI can reduce the need for professional software developers. As things stand today, it can't

[gilded valley]

many large companies - including in very regulated industries like Finance - are spending massively on building out their own internal equivalents

[peak halo]

or leaking details about what you're trying to do to ChatGPT

[hearty island]

problem management at my internship doesn't use chat gpt at all. we're blocked off actually

[open cradle]

I am not sure about this. Companies are already using Teams, Outlook or Azure. Is there any difference if you use Copilot?

[hearty island]

lots of exposure risk

[quasi kite]

Do you guys believe in prompt engineering?

[true harness]

teams, outlook, and azure aren't tools that generate code based on a prompt. how is that relevant?

[quasi kite]

Like, if this is really promising

[smoky quest]

sounds like cheap labor

[fringe sphinx]

These conversations always end up as religious wars: some people have unshakeable beliefs in: doom or it’s all good.

[quasi kite]

agree lol, theyre just enjoying the hype

[true harness]

I think most the opinions are pretty reasonable though. "not yet" I think is the most common

[balmy spade]

I don't listen to the news media so I'm a bit ignorant from that knowledge pool. Without AI we are facing a steady increase in demand and decrease in results (pay/comp). This has been the trend of the working force since I joined it almost 35 years ago. In my personal opinion, AI is just another pebble in the river.

[gilded valley]

I would say that by a considerable margin the most popular view on forums like this is: it doesn't represent any substantial change at all

I think the actual case is probably that it reduces the need for a lot of mediocre software engineers, and changes the shape of software engineering substantially - over the course of 2-10 years

[quasi kite]

I see, interesting opinion

[balmy spade]

Now, outside of careers does generative AI pose some interesting and complex issues for society in general? Oh yes... and I'm here for every moment of reaping what is sown.

[sleek egret]

no, ai's are not movie magic

they have no agency, goals or any sort of will.

[quasi kite]

Like I admit that technologies in general are beneficial, like, why go make a fire if you have a stove, you know?

[true harness]

fire can be big fire. stove only little fire

[balmy spade]

I could go on about how I actually want to know how to build a fire, when to build a fire, and where to build a fire so that I can understand the value of the stove. It opens a great metaphorical discussion to the gradual loss of knowledge through advancement of knowledge which is an amazing coffee table discussion. But, it isn't much of a #career-advice .

[sleek egret]

what if my stove is really really big?

[balmy spade]

I've run into AI in my career. From retail to technology; it has been rather persistently adopted in the workforce. Mostly transparently to the majority. When it's not transparent it comes in the form of the discussion I had today. A junior dev calls me into a jam-session to get some code working. I ask them to explain what their code is doing. They cannot, they didn't write most of it. This person has a choice and I bluntly call it out.

"You can be the type of dev that understands everything they touch. You'll have limited fields of deep knowledge but you'll be second to none in them. Or you can be the dev that can be replaced by the next dev because neither of you are particularly strong in your craft."

It isn't the AI. It's the person.

[sleek egret]

amen, bruddah. preach it!

if I could ruff-splain and restate: if you're afraid of being replaced by an AI, you probably will be (eventually). so gain enough knowledge and skills so you won't be.