career-advice

[cinder dagger]

Afterall it should be better to have those courses in my transcripts and CV when applying a data analyst job

[zealous path]

My track was
HS(passed GCSEs) - Sixth Form[physics, maths, chem] (C,C,D) - Uni [applied physics] (2:2) - Data entry(8 months) - DA (5months in)

[dreamy shadow]

Take a look at Data Scientist & Similar roles too. This will be where you transition from after Data Analyst.

[cinder dagger]

Will do, but I suppose those courses from computer science track would be useful in similar roles too right?

[dreamy shadow]

If your talking about these, yes. Those are somewhat of the core courses for a career in Data Science.

[cinder dagger]

From my current understanding, having basic knowledge of applied math and computer science + big data technology seems to be the best combination for my career

[dreamy shadow]

If you plan on sticking with data analyst, you really don't need more than Excel programming wise. + Power Bi/Tableau (Data visualization)

[cinder dagger]

If I only have applied math and big data technology, I seems to lack too much knowledge in terms of programming or coding or CS in overall

[zealous path]

Also depends on how new the company you join is.
It’ll either be “here’s a language you know, this is what we code in” or “here’s an archaic language, as long as you know how to code, you’ll learn the rest”

[cinder dagger]

And as mentioned, courses that I found useful in applied math track could be studied in computer science track too, so I suppose I would prefer just learn the course that I found useful for career and study the rest credits on courses that are useful too, and going for computer science track seems to solve the problem

I only find data analytic tools, complex analysis and image processing might be useful in applied math track, but they are all available in cs track

Btw guys thx for helping

[hearty island]

yesssss

my background check for centene cleared ✅

[sleek egret]

howdy peeps

[sleek egret]

congrats on not being an undesirable

[hearty island]

ty

[sleek egret]

so when do you start?

[hearty island]

may 22

my current internship’s boss was lowkey fearmongering about my summer internship. he was like oh you’re gonna be a small replaceable cog at a huge corporate machine

[true harness]

rofl

[hearty island]

but my current internship also won’t match my summer internship’s hourly rate. and they give me jackshit to do

[true harness]

what incentive did they give you to stay

[hearty island]

“we can increase your hourly rate by a dollar and give you more experience as a project manager”

but i already do nothing here

it could’ve been something spicy like “we’ll pay for your PMP”

that would be juicy

[true harness]

a whole dollar damn

[hearty island]

i want to counter it and say then i want an agreement in writing that you’ll pay for my PMP and increase my salary to match centene’s

[dreamy shadow]

That's 2k extra a year. You could buy 200 chipotle bowls

[pine sleet]

can I have 100 chipotle bowls if you end up doing that

[hearty island]

speaking of chipotle that’s all i eat on fridays. there’s a chipotle right next to where i work at the internship

[dreamy shadow]

Time to see how much money our company made this year.

[true harness]

yes, but compared to the other offer which is apparently substantially higher

[hearty island]

$24 an hour is the other offer

[dreamy shadow]

LOL, our west is negative % in YoY

[hearty island]

$24 an hour and actual responsibilities that have actual impacts

and i can put it on my resume too

i think it’s a W

[sleek egret]

I like chipotle bowls

[sleek egret]

Imagine the size of the chipotle bowl you could buy with that money

[vapid jay]

should I get the PCEP if I'm 15 or is it too late

[sleek egret]

what's the PCEP?

[true harness]

no. there are better uses of your time

[pine sleet]

Like?

[hearty island]

chipotle is awesome

[sleek egret]

indeed

[vapid jay]

what should I do instead

[true harness]

make fun projects

[near ocean]

Keep grades up
Make projects
Enjoy being a 15 yo

[vapid jay]

so no certifications at all? just build my portfolio?

[vapid jay]

entry level python certificate that I probably could have done when I was 12

[near ocean]

The cert is meaningless, your portfolio could be not meaningless

[vapid jay]

that’s fair enough

[sleek egret]

it could be meaningless. but it should not be 🙂

[smoky quest]

At 15, I wouldn't worry about any portfolio as it will be useless. I would recommend:

• Aim for a CS degree and thus make sure you have the grades to get into a good university/college
• Have fun and build things. Make robots, websites, backends, ml/ai stuff, games, etc.

[near ocean]

Dont those go into a portfolio?

[smoky quest]

if your projects from when you are 15 years old still matter when you graduate from your degree at 21-22, there is something really wrong

[near ocean]

They might help with admissions, usually they look at extracurricular activities

Besides, if they start a github now they might be more inclined to keep it updated, rewrite old projects, etc

[smoky quest]

I would still argue the same thing for 3 years in the future when they apply to college and universities. Plus the portfolio will emerge naturally.
15 still seems quite early to worry about these things

[near ocean]

If theyre gonna worry about certificates, may as well worry about portfolios instead

[smoky quest]

Sure.
They would still get more ROI about exploring what's available and out there. There are many domains they probably don't even know they exist

[near ocean]

I would urge them to do regular 15 yo stuff, when you get a job you'll look back and dont want to reget

[peak halo]

if you don't look back at age 15 with regret, you were probably in a coma.

[near ocean]

Regret you were cringe yes, regret for missing out on things tho?

[peak halo]

I know what you meant. I'm just being silly ||and trying to cope with having been cringe||

[near ocean]

Being great at something requires "well rounded-ness" imo

[vapid jay]

I disagree since I have to apply for colleges in 2 years

which isn't that much time considering

[true harness]

that's like a solid 7th of your life

[near ocean]

You have 5-6 years to worry about a serious portfolio

[true harness]

eh. only 3 imo, if they're applying in 2

[near ocean]

Applying to colleges, they can keep working on it during their studies

I didnt have a portfolio before I applied to uni, a good chunk of my classmates didnt either, its not critical

[vapid jay]

I just really want to get into ut

[peak halo]

is UT a specific university? which one?

[true harness]

UT austin, presumably

[vapid jay]

yes ut austin
if not then ut dallas

[peak halo]

oh okay. well, I got into my first-choice university in high school, and then I got there and realized it wasn't for me and dropped out.

[vapid jay]

what did you do in hs to get there?

[peak halo]

nothing that would help one get into a CS program (I got into a linguistics program)

[smoky quest]

Compare the things you are doing now with the things you were doing 2 years ago. Are you saying that you aren't doing things any more complex/better than when you were 13 years old?
That will be the same projection in 2 years

[peak halo]

I dunno, I've met a lot of adults who are doing things less complex than the average 13 year old. (I worked in food service.)

[smoky quest]

the bar is not another person though. The bar is themselves

[peak halo]

@peak olive this is not a platform for you to promote your product. Please remove your messages.

[sleek egret]

it's also not nice to imply that a front-end to another AI model is your own

[sleek egret]

well said

[carmine stag]

What is your opinion on ai, from a future job security for developers perspective

[true harness]

it's aight

[sleek egret]

just as mechanical adding machines put millions of people out of work in the late 1890's to 1910's, AI will put millions of people out of work as well.

but the upside is that the automation of arithmetic meant that those people got to do other work

similarly, AI will mean that many of those put out of work will probably find different work to do

for developers specifically, the first people hurt will be the low-end outsource software shops. they tend to work on a ticket-by-ticket basis with (relatively) clear instructions. such tasks can be mostly (but not totally) accomplished by state of the art AI's

that business is gonna be gutted. 100 "I hate my job" cheap low-skill devs are going to be replaced by 10 "I hate AI's, they're so stupid" medium-skilled devs who check the work of the AI's that replaced the other 90.

to sum up, the more skilled you are as a developer, the less you will see AI as a threat

[hearty island]

i know some marketing people who are terrified of AI

[sleek egret]

as they should be

legal professionals should be too

[dreamy shadow]

Please, for the love of god. DO NOT go "Hi Skyglow", then spend the next 2 mins typing. JUST TYPE THE WHOLE THING. These people at work driving me nuts with that.

It's not just off shore team, it is VP too. JESUS.

[winged portal]

hi

[dreamy shadow]

omfg, they ended with "I have a question" instead of asking it...

[near ocean]

Then there's the other extreme where you do single messages with all your questions and they reply with "I'm good, how are you?"

And completely ignore your questions

[spark cobalt]

"I'm ready to call".
me literally half a second later"Bet"starts a huddle
doesn't join for 10 minutes

I have a suspicion that because I respond really fast (like a kid addicted to social media, cuz that's what I am), I send a message while they're tabbing out so they don't get a notification for my stuff

[sleek egret]

I rarely respond immediately even if I could to train people to not expect me to respond immediately

[spark cobalt]

I read all the messages immediately, it's like, I was already distracted I'll just respond right away too

Yeah at least so far, all my conversations on Slack have been asynchronous. So replying immediately helps me so that I don't have to remember that I have to respond to someone.

[sleek egret]

maybe you should train yourself to remember 🙂

or not. just a random thought

[spark cobalt]

My memory is shit. I put everything in some docs that I look at everyday

[fallen spire]

LLMs like chatgpt are a good parlor trick but I think it unlocks a new level for the economy but certainly it will impact folks

[hearty island]

i would interview for this but the salary is too low for fucking california 😦

[sleek egret]

it's public service. you don't do it for the money

[hearty island]

well if it's my first job out of graduation, i'm gonna need the money

[sleek egret]

don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think the UC system cares about your needs

[hearty island]

(what job does) and also here on LinkedIn the annual pay range is 102K

[sleek egret]

for project coordinators?

[hearty island]

for the exact role, i googled it. are they trying to lowball me?

[sleek egret]

well, that means about half get paid less 🙂

[hearty island]

i don't think you can survive in california on 60K

also i live in NY rn

[sleek egret]

median household income in CA is $78,672/yr

[hearty island]

oh hell to the no to the no no no no

[sleek egret]

median salary is $61,026/yr

[hearty island]

nah i will hold out for a better offer. also what's saying they don't rescind the interview bc i graduate '24

[sleek egret]

I would too

25% of workers in CA make $42,411 or less

only 25% of workers in CA make more than $78,205/yr or more

[hearty island]

how much do you want to bet they didn't read my resume and didn't realize i graduate may '24

[sleek egret]

I'd give that 50/50 odds

[hearty island]

sigh

[sleek egret]

don't worry, in a decade or two, you'll get used to the mediocrity that is america

[hearty island]

i just replied to her email and was like hey you know i graduate may '24 right? also i just noticed it's a contract position not a full time position so

hopefully a company likes me senior year and wants to hire me

[sleek egret]

the more you fret about it, the harder it will be to land a good job. I know it's hard, but try not to worry.

[spark cobalt]

You can

My yearly expenses are ~25k and I'm in Cupertino, one of the more expensive places here. And I pay for everything but my Costco membership.

And that's including travels and all the other dumb shit I bought this past year

[dreamy spade]

Wow. This is unbelievable. https://www.reddit.com/r/resumes/comments/12tyt2t/finding_a_remote_job_for_an_year_now_could_not/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1

[true harness]

why's it so skinny

[spark cobalt]

Why is it unbelievable?

[true harness]

well it's amusing they put "open source developer" under "work experience"

yeah honestly it's not that surprising. neither of their work experiences actually say anything about what they did. their second project is kinda just a hello world type project

oh, and they listed their education in the wrong order. i missed they're in a masters program 🥴

[dreamy spade]

Because they have been finding a remote job for a year

That’s too long

[spark cobalt]

Their resume sucks. Their projects and results do not correlate to their education level.

[spark cobalt]

No one's entitled to a job.

[dreamy spade]

This demonstrates how extremely competitive this industry is.

[spark cobalt]

Yes

[summer roost]

I don't think it does. It's pretty uncommon for companies to hire remote workers in other countries. It's even more uncommon for companies to hire students for non internship roles.

[dreamy spade]

People are just trying to make a decent living.

[spark cobalt]

People are also trying to make impact in the world, and they need high impact individuals to make it happen.

[summer roost]

They'd likely have a much easier time looking for work with Indian companies.

[spark cobalt]

Their projects are a little shocking for a Master's yeah...

[dreamy spade]

I would honestly cry if I was jobless for a year after getting my Bachelors.

That’s not suppose to happen.

[true harness]

i think a lot of people were in that situation recently, due to pandemic shenanigans

[spark cobalt]

I thought the pandemic was a really good time in terms of tech hiring

[dreamy spade]

All that money spent on tuition fees, the brutality of writing exams, maintaining a GPA, going through all of that just to be jobless for year…

[summer roost]

I really wouldn't read too much into this story. They've invented a type of job that practically doesn't exist (remote work for a foreign company while attending university full time) and then complained about not being able to get it.

[stone narwhal]

How do human learn hacking [using Python]
I am an password cracker in Kali linux

[vital wyvern]

!rule 5

[inner wren]

Rules

5. Do not provide or request help on projects that may violate terms of service, or that may be deemed inappropriate, malicious, or illegal.

[stone narwhal]

?

[hearty island]

hmm. well we'll see what they say, i emailed back saying i graduate may 24

[stone narwhal]

Ok

[untold swan]

hello

Someone who understands python software, the script I wrote is giving a problem, can someone who can fix it, thank you

[zealous path]

Yeah… a calculator and a data fetch are not exactly crowning achievements…

[zealous path]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[untold swan]

Pls gelp

[near ocean]

How can you go through 2 degrees and the only projects you have are a calculator and a 4 line http request and print thing

[hearty island]

omg so apparently the UC san diego recruiter is completely fine with me graduating may 2024

[dreamy spade]

What would be “crowning” achievements then

[hearty island]

they want to interview me!

[near ocean]

A decent capstone project would be fine

They have a CS degree, surely they had a final year project

[zealous path]

I did a bachelors in applied physics and mine was an artificial neural network for optimising connectivity in a light fidelity network.
Like OP must have done a dissertation right? Usually that’s your academic crowning achievement.

[true harness]

"must"? i don't think undergrads usually do those

[near ocean]

Dont undergrads in the us do a final year project?

[true harness]

i think it depends on the specific school/program

[zealous path]

Yeah? Like what’s your final big project like? In the U.K. you have to submit a 5,000 word paper on a topic of your choosing
(In STEM at least)

[true harness]

yeah we don't do that, lol

[near ocean]

What do you do then?

Is it exams throughout? But anyway they should have had other classes that would yield a project or two

[zealous path]

Is it just exams and that’s it?

[true harness]

in my school, there's a course specifically to make a capstone project. or you can just not do one, i think. but my school is kinda scuffed, so

[near ocean]

Do the capstone 😡

[zealous path]

In my wife’s words “that’s actually wild”

[true harness]

i may

[near ocean]

There's also the opinion that not everyone is cut out for or deserves a tech job

Certainly not with calculator projects on the CV

[true harness]

yeah honestly, i flip back and forth between "that's correct"and "that's gatekeeping"

[near ocean]

I dont think its gatekeeping, im not a recruiter or hiring manager, im just observing reality

If you have terrible CV, refuse to do anything about it and just whine on reddit then you dont deserve a software job

[zealous path]

I don’t think it’s a “they don’t deserve the job just cause” it’s more “you look down on the industry thinking it’ll be easy and when it’s not, you complain, so you no, I won’t hand you a job on a silver platter”

[true harness]

oh. i usually hear "not cut out for programming" with respect to someone struggling to get a job/to learn, not that they aren't trying. in that case, i think it's probably a little more reasonable

[near ocean]

I've also seen a lot of people struggle with learning but usually its not because theyre dumb or the stuff is hard but because they lose their patience at the first sign of hardship

More of a character thing than an intellectual one

Also I logged into reddit solely to downvote that post, thanks

[spark cobalt]

Anything that shows you have depth in some specialty. Are you aiming for specific kind of roles, maybe someone can highlight things to have on your resume?

[near ocean]

I think last they mentioned they are going through a spring + react project, so full stack webdev I guess

[summer roost]

This seems pretty uncivil. Asking on Reddit, and sharing their CV, is clearly an attempt to do something about it, and speculating about what strangers on the Internet do and don't deserve seems unkind.

[stone narwhal]

Hello i am learning Hacking for good reason!

[It was we and my team who hacked irans tv live]

[summer roost]

Good reason or not, we don't allow discussing illegal activities, or ones that can be used maliciously. That's what our rule 5 is about

[stone narwhal]

How about cyber security?

[summer roost]

We have a #cybersecurity channel for that, but you will need to avoid discussing malicious or red team activities even there.

[stone narwhal]

Thank lord!

[trim sierra]

Hi, I am working with a government assigned career counselor to start a path to full stack developer, and we are considering options for education. They recommended a bootcamp option, but the wisdom I have seen so far from the internet at large and the discussion history in this channel is that bootcamps are hit or miss in terms of employment. My counselor admits he is not an expert in the IT field, however the only available counselor for that has a waitlist months long. With that in mind, would it be worth it to try and lobby for a full degree program? I am an adult who has already completed a BA in an unrelated field, so I am unsure as to exactly how much school I would be required to complete to qualify for a second.

Thoughts from industry professionals, especially people in positions of management would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

[near ocean]

That wasnt 100% referring to the reddit user, even though they should also be in a position to understand that a calculator project doesnt cut it

[fierce obsidian]

What I'm gona do with python:/

[near ocean]

(also the reddit thing was a joke, im not logging into reddit even if god asked me to)

[vital wyvern]

Government assigned career counselor... are you ex-mil?

[trim sierra]

Department of Rehabilitation, disability. Similar scope.

[vital wyvern]

Shoot, I have some resources for vets, but I've got nothing for ya' in that department off the top. Apologies 😦

[trim sierra]

No worries. If the military would take me I'd have been there 11 years ago, sadly my body is a little unpatriotic so I'd fail boot. 😅

[gritty rivet]

I'm a bootcamp grad with an unrelated BA and I've been a full-time developer for over a year now. I know loads of people who have followed roughly similar paths. It can be done.

If you're serious and can realistically do a second BA in CS, it's very likely to be a worthwhile investment.

[trim sierra]

I appreciate the insight! Do you have any tips in the vein of presenting yourself, and also explaining your unrelated degree during interviews? I always freeze when they ask about my English degree when applying to entry level helpdesk, which I've done a couple times now.

Additionally, do you feel a lack of bargaining power in terms of not having a relevant degree?

[gritty rivet]

It's funny you mention help desk because I went from sociologist to help desk to developer. Having help desk experience was very helpful to getting my current job. If you can deal with that level of pay for a year or two, it's a much easier way to break in to tech.

[trim sierra]

Many of my friends are helpdesk and above, with a few in cybersecurity. I've been taking time to study when I can to get an A+ to make applying for them easier. To be honest the pay is better in general than what I used to make at my 3-year-long CSR job at a call center.

[gritty rivet]

I work at a company with a lot of bootcamp grads. We're treated the same. I don't know what everyone gets paid but I feel that I'm paid fairly. Long term I expect to earn less because the CS majors just clearly know a lot I don't and I can see their skills advancing more quickly over time. I'd really have to work extra-hard to keep up in my long-term development

[trim sierra]

Are you comfortable disclosing your job title and or salary estimate?

[spark cobalt]

Generally a CS degree will be the best path for you. You could also look into some online degrees that can allow you to expedite the time it takes to get the degree. Someone I know is doing WGU CS degree in 1.5 years, and has got internships both summers.

[trim sierra]

I did see the WGU program, it comes recommended from a few other developers/IT folks I know. Internships are a big part of the consideration for me in terms of going for a degree.

[peak halo]

In 1.5 years? At my university, even if you took every single required non-CS course before hand, it would still take six semesters.

[spark cobalt]

Yep

There's people that speedrun a degree at WGU within half a year. Though that path comes with doing stuff beforehand

[spark cobalt]

It gives you more time to explore the CS field and lets you actually experience a little bit of the industry before hopping in for the real deal

Bootcamps are good if the bootcamp in question is giving you the knowledge of the niche in CS you wanna do.

[trim sierra]

The bootcamp the counselor was recommending to me is https://sdgku.edu/programs-list/full-stack-development-immersive/

[peak halo]

Would your employer hire someone who has no professional experience and no credentials relevant to the position other than one boot camp?

[spark cobalt]

My employer hired me.

[peak halo]

So, yes?

It's not a trick question. I'm just asking

[spark cobalt]

Yep. The only one here without a degree.

[peak halo]

Interesting. What position at what kind of company?

[spark cobalt]

Computer networking, software engineer

At the time I was applying, company was Masters only and 1 YOE required. Was pretty surprising to get a response from them. Everyone here has a Masters or PhD except for 5-8 people

[gritty rivet]

Doing the A+ helped me break in for sure. I quickly found a desktop support job after that. I think I started at $16/hour in 2016. Was earning mid-$50k/year when I left my last help desk job in early 2022. Started my dev job in mid-70k range and am already up to mid+80k. This is not especially high, but respectable for 100% remote. I'm in my 40s and my coworkers are mostly half my age presumably earning around the same or a little more

[trim sierra]

Given my lifestyle, I'd be living comparatively like a king on even 60k. Do you have any tips on preparing for the A+ exams? I think I may try to get that finished sooner rather than later.

[trim sierra]

You must have been an impressive interviewee 😯

[spark cobalt]

To give more context. I was hired originally as Contract To Hire basis for 6 months. Then they decided to cut the contract short by 3 months and made me full time.

I don't think many companies would hire someone from my background with no safety measures

[gritty rivet]

Best thing you can do to vet a bootcamp is look on LinkedIn. Find graduates, see how they're doing, get their advice.

College-affiliated programs in general don't have the best reputation. They are generally run by one of a few iffy companies that pay the schools to use their brand. Not saying this one is bad, but be careful if you do consider it

[spark cobalt]

I don't think so. In my final interview with them, the director just ended up saying "we have no reason to not hire you" so it continued off like that

More of, we didn't catch any red flags rather than me bringing in a luggage of green flags

Just did everything they asked, be nice, be chill, make the interview conversational, make it fun for both sides, make sure you learn something, then move on

My final interview was half spent talking about the American Dream or something

[trim sierra]

Yikes...the alumni on linkedin seem to have a chronic case of "open to work" and "aspiring developer" 😬 Good tip. I'll bring this up with my counselor.

[spark cobalt]

A lot of bootcamp grads right now are in that state. Have quite a few in my network... Really rough

[gritty rivet]

That makes sense... I think the most valuable part of how I study for those kinds of exams (I've done a bunch more since then) is to read a couple of books but really focus a lot on answering practice questions, keeping track of what I got wrong and focusing on that. I never really paid for any study materials (although I did use some pirated books and spent a lot of time studying at the bookstore). If you feel like videos are helpful to you, the free ones by Professor Messer on YouTube are quite good

[trim sierra]

Yeah, if I'm going to be putting my maximum effort into a given program/path, I'd prefer to feel like I have at least a decent chance of actually being placed in a position.

[trim sierra]

Thanks, I will look those up!

[gritty rivet]

Good luck with the exam! With an A+ and call center experience I would think you can find a job in a matter of weeks to months. But if you aren't already an advanced programmer with a strong portfolio, becoming a full stack developer is more like a one or two year goal.

[trim sierra]

Thanks! I figured that was likely the case. At this point I've been coding in python for two weeks, so that seems like a reasonable time frame given my progress, lol.

[gritty rivet]

If full stack is ultimately where you want to go, JavaScript is definitely important to learn. But if you love Python as much as I do, it's totally viable to focus on that and have more of a backend focus. That has been my approach, can dabble with JS a bit but am far from capable of any full stack work.

SQL and bash are good complements to Python if you're more interested in backend or data engineering

[trim sierra]

Python has been great so far, my intention was to learn python, then html/css and django, then branch out from there into javascript and C# eventually

[spark cobalt]

There are also some other roles that are low barrier to entry with Python that you can investigate. Primarily test dev, possibly some other automation/scripting stuff as well.

Though for test dev, it typically asks that you have really good knowledge in the domain of whatever's being tested.

[near ocean]

Boohoo, are we supposed to feel bad for mid 6figure peeps being stressed?

[carmine stag]

Jassis you’re an asshole

[near ocean]

Pardon?

[sour oracle]

Dm me if anyone can help me in making a bot 100 - 200 lines of code 🤑🤑

[gritty rivet]

!rules 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[gritty rivet]

Please delete this message before you get the banhammer 🙂

[sour oracle]

I don't think it's paid

I am just asking for help

[near ocean]

Thats not what the emojis imply

[quartz aspen]

You're the one who posted it, so "I (don't) think" doesn't apply - someone else could say that, but you know what you meant (so there's no "I think"/"i don't think"). and you used money emojis.

[hearty island]

i can’t wait for my summer internship. my current one had me just setting up computers and doing (generally) nothing

i mean i can put it on my resume that i created an inventory tracker list that tracks 60 different computers

maybe that’s a project?

i think that’s a stronger bullet than just “managed x amount of projects with smartsheet”

[crisp jewel]

Hello everyone hru? Does anyone have any insights as to which uni is better for cs university of Minnesota twin cities or umass Amherst. .

[sour oracle]

can anyone help me making a discord bot maybe 100- 200 lines of code only 😭😭😭🤑🤑🤑🤑

[lean moth]

@sour oracle It has already been made clear to you to stop asking this. You won't get help on this server for that.

[sour oracle]

Where can I get it?

[lean moth]

Can you read a channel description?

[sour oracle]

Or where can I find for paid programers?

[crisp jewel]

check dms

you should also delete your msgs because this is #career-advice meant to discuss career related topics

[vital spruce]

can any1 help me make a basic discord bot?

[deft herald]

read the discussion above you

[wide gull]

hello everyone

i’m just starting my learning process, I can write basic python and i’m about learning django framework for backend engineering but i’m confused on the latest trend with AI..

I don’t know if I should go with learning machine learning or just stay with software engineering.

I am honestly concerned about “AI taking developer jobs in the near future” too, since i’m starting out without any help from anywhere

I need opinions and advice, thank you

[vapid jay]

I'd say do what you like you most, not just because it's on trending

[wide gull]

alright, thank you.
I appreciate you

[summer roost]

It's extremely hard to predict whether any particular trend today will or won't be a major factor in how code is written in the future. For instance, 15 years ago XML was used absolutely everywhere, now it's almost never used by new projects. 20 years ago Flash was used by every major website, now it's totally dead

Hell, 2 or 3 years ago, everyone was trying to jam blockchain into every project, instead of AI

[wide gull]

thank you so much for this. i appreciate you

[deft herald]

Yeah i'm so glad i wasn't a part of any of that

[sleek egret]

yar

no one is gonna yar me back?

[pine sleet]

[dreamy shadow]

First it was "data driven", then "AI" then "block chain", now back to "AI with NLP"

[sleek egret]

just to be annoying, blockchain is one word 🙂

[summer roost]

There was an "expert system" phase for a while. Oh, and "big data", and "web scale"

[sleek egret]

it wasn't until I started reading this channel that I really understood that young people still in school don't really understand how unstructured and vague everything is out in the real world

[dreamy shadow]

That's because in school they teach you every problem has an answer...

[sleek egret]

they're used to well defined terminology (majors, subjects, institutions) and well defined evaluation. so it's not surprising.

[sleek egret]

oh I meant that I should have realized this misalignment given that I've already gone through it. it's just that it was so long ago and I've come to just accept the vagueness.

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, I got to realize this in my senior project. It was a image classification model. I never done that before. "Wow, all these proofs to prove why covariance = blah and var is blah does nothing here"

Wow, my boss doesn't know much either...

[summer roost]

I'd agree that there's a mental adjustment from a "solving problems" mentality to a "providing value" mentality. Imperfect solutions can be good enough for a business, but aren't worth much for school. But on top of that, high school students have just been exposed to very little of the software development world. They tend to only be aware of the most in-your-face types of software - games, LLMs, web sites, etc.

[sleek egret]

all you guys say is true. but I was referring to a bit higher level. things like job titles, the "best" way to approach interviewing, career path terminology, etc

[summer roost]

ah, I see.

[sleek egret]

to use an example, I suspect that when students ask "what do I need to learn to be a data scientist?" they think of it like a school major with prerequisits and required/optional coursework

not even realizing that "data scientist" itself is highly variable

it must be frustrating for them when I respond "it depends", lol

[brazen island]

This is true but not true at the same time

[summer roost]

Can you elaborate?

[brazen island]

I think the "provide value" mindset leads to cutting so many corners in the long run

The point of AI/ML is imo just automation. The return-on-investment is pretty long term but if you build a company from the ground up that cares about it you'll provide so much in the long run

And the whole "we must provide value" thing is usually focused on the here and now, max 2 quarters ahead. You shouldn't do something that doesn't do anything whatsoever (imo blockchain in 99 % of use cases) but you should still "invest" in the long-term.

[summer roost]

I'm not sure I agree, but, I'm also not sure that it matters even if you're correct. Most developers are paid to deliver a useful product on a relatively short timeline. That's the reality of professional development: you don't get an unlimited amount of time, and so you can't always get things perfect.

It's hard to convince investors to keep letting you polish a solution rather than releasing something that's "good enough"

[brazen island]

They are but that's wrong mindset from C-levels and most likely why I'm in R&D 🤷‍♂️

Obviously you need to focus on the here and now but some of your energy needs to go towards the mid / long-term as well. Otherwise we would have little to no innovation and just endless corner cutting tbh

For example, if a company invests in ML to improve procurement they'll need a long time to get a decent data architecture, get the models ready, ... but when it is done then you can automate an entire process away. The cop out here is Excel and bar charts which have more immediate impact but lead nowhere. Imo you should do both and deprecate the former.

[summer roost]

I don't agree that it's a wrong mindset, honestly. You're right that there's tradeoffs, and that engineers need to communicate the business value of paying down technical debt, or of investing in new tech, or whatever. But ultimately, the value that developers provide to the company is completing projects that meet the business's goals, hopefully on time and on budget. And that's something that new joiners to the field often struggle with: the need to weigh tradeoffs and make pragmatic choices about where to spend limited time

I mean, I certainly do agree that focusing only on the next quarter's earnings is bad. But even companies that are thinking about what they want to do 5 years from now still need to deliver value today

[balmy spade]

Long term research and development is powerful. A huge tradeoff with it though is it cannot handle the moving targets of an active business/commercial environment. I agree you need both. Someone with their eyes on the horizon and someone with their eyes on where the business target is going to pivot next.

[brazen island]

I think we're more or less in agreement at this point. My only issue is just that sometimes providing value now accumulates tech debt to the point you only have time to A) provide value now and B) maintain the tech debt. That for me is hellscape.

I've been in places like this and its soulcrushing. You're spending most of your time doing things you know you could automate if you had the time but you don't because you need to do those things. Couple that with some more sunk cost fallacy and you've got yourself a pretty bad place to work (from my pov)

[balmy spade]

That certainly doesn't sound like a culture I'd wish to work in.

[vapid jay]

Hello i have some questions and this tab is great for my question
1- I was thinking of learning flutter instead of python but im so uncertain about both im looking to start working as a dev asap so what would be better
2- rn i work in graphic design and video editing im probably wont stay for long since the project manager kinda hate me and i get payed 300/ month would python jobs be better ?
3- ik python is simple compared to C++ and java but slower but its more wide so would that mean more time takes to learn ?

thanks for anyone who answers my question in advance

[spark cobalt]

You'll have much more success leveraging the type of experience you have now and getting into a related/adjacent role where your experience would be extremely helpful.

[vapid jay]

i have experience video editor - graphic design - and web dev ( wordpress )

im only 18 so idk if thats good or bad

[smoky quest]

All your questions are highly specific to your own situation. No one but you can answer them.
What you can do however is to make lists of pros/cons and what it would take to answer them and then digging deeper.

As a note, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[vapid jay]

i hate working as a video editor sometimes its boring and its not even my field that im studying at uni
so the question is python worth learning like will after 3 months maybe still be good jobs that im able to enter or would flutter be the better choice or just stick to video editing and hope to get kicked off my work ( the work just getting tracked by hubstaff and its really annoying hubstaff tracks mouse clicks keyboard and screenshots every minutes monitors what url u enter and everything litterly )

so its just really uncofortable work setting

[smoky quest]

3months is too short to get a high skill job from knowing nothing.
3months could be doable for someone already experienced and knowledgeable

it also depends on the type of jobs you are aiming for

[vapid jay]

i already know a bit of coding
i know a bit of java - html - css

[vapid jay]

making more than 300$ a month and remote not overly unconfortable setting

that's the goal for now

[smoky quest]

That will depend on your country, job you find, etc.
In the USA/EU, any job ad for junior roles have thousands of applicants, the majority having been to school fo r3-5 years, have degrees, experience, internships, projects, etc.. So the question would be how you plan to stand out?

[vapid jay]

using my knoweledge i already have a portfolio I could edit it and add some python projects

and my design experience could be an extra

idk how to explain it

but having someone over ur head whenver your working is stressfull and annoying

if im fast at my work i won't to be able to get the 40 hours done

[smoky quest]

that's unrelated to finding a job

[vapid jay]

im just explaining why i wanna leave my current job rn

anyways so what do you think would python be more important than flutter ?

[smoky quest]

it depends on the jobs you are aiming for and how many there are in your local market

[vapid jay]

ok thanks

[vapid jay]

Hey,

I’m a junior in high-school currently and I’ve been looking into colleges and majors lately. I will most likely be going into computer science as it is one of my main interests and is something that has an optimistic future.

I’ve messed around with Python for a while in 8th grade, but never really got far and made any cool little projects. I started looking into ML stuff thinking it was cool, even though I would have zero clue how to even do any of it. After COVID hit, I kinda dropped it.

Fast forward, I’ve now picked up the interest of programming again and I’m thinking about going into it for college. I’ve been going through the Python Crash Course textbook by Eric Matthes real quick to refresh the basic syntax.

After I finish reviewing the syntax and basic programming concepts, how can I start improving my skills and learning more intermediate things? I’m not sure what is out there to go beyond the step that I am at right now, which is learning the very basics.

Also, in what ways can I leverage my programming skills to make my college application more competitive and interesting?

[pine sleet]

!projects Work on projects that are appropriate for your skill level. They'll both strengthen your skills and you can put it on your resume later on

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[pine sleet]

As for college apps ~ I don't believe they generally care all that much, but having a leadership position does matter to them. For instance, if you were a lead maintainer or triager something like that on a popular repository, that could be something you leverage

[spark cobalt]

I'd try exploring the tech industry and see what it has to offer for you and just trying out different things.

[vapid jay]

What do you mean by “exploring the tech industry”?

[spark cobalt]

Like seeing what kind of roles there are

[smoky quest]

Hi!
This is not a channel for recruiting

[long socket]

oh, my bad

[smoky quest]

There isn't any. You would have more success on appropriate platforms like linkedin or indeed

[long socket]

ah welp, do you know of any servers that are open to it?

[smoky quest]

nope

[hearty island]

💀

[vapid jay]

wtf that’s my career

[river wasp]

ugh

[peak halo]

You don't necessarily need programming skills to improve your application. They'll put more value on your academic performance, especially in math.

If you're interested in ML, you'll want to make sure that the CS programs you apply to have a solid ML curriculum available to undergraduates, or that they make it straightforward to transition into a master's program that does.

[gritty rivet]

The mods must be taking the day off around here 😅

[analog sun]

!cban 395660966504824847 Not remotely appropriate for this server

[inner wren]

:ok_hand: applied ban to @tepid lake permanently.

[vapid jay]

What is USACO Gold? @modern ore

[harsh river]

seems to be this https://usaco.guide/gold

Message #career-advice

[true harness]

why stop at gold, lol

no, you don't

[vapid jay]

Probably won’t be going to a top school anyways, not trying to become broke

[true harness]

most of my CS friends didn't even do USACO. just a sample, one is at MIT, like 2 at cornell, lots at penn

[vapid jay]

So are these like coding challenges? Kinda like leetcode

[true harness]

pretty much, yeah

[vapid jay]

What’s “camp”

[true harness]

i assume you're in the US. the best US performers in USACO get invited to a "study camp", to prepare for the international olympiad for informatics

[vapid jay]

Yeah there’s zero time and hope for me to be able to do any of that. Gonna be applying to colleges in the fall and I’m just picking up programming again rn haha

So is it like Leetcode but like way harder?

I’m just trying to get into UMD Computer Science, so hopefully I can make it 🤞

[true harness]

only one school ?

[vapid jay]

If I get in, that’s probably where I’ll go cuz it’s closest to home, instate(cheap), and has good CS from what I’ve heard

@modern ore I don’t think it’s that competitive from what I’ve heard

SAT: 1500
GPA: 4.72 (13/~400 class rank)

Let’s hope that’s the case 🙏

[true harness]

get internships! they're very important. and someone will say you need to get an internship at certain firms in a certain domain, but internships are mainly for exploring different areas to find out what you're interested in

[vapid jay]

Yeah I’ve heard that it’s really important 👀

When in one’s college years is it best to get started doing internships, just curious

[true harness]

freshman year! start networking and applying. even if you don't get one you're going to be slightly ahead of everyone that didn't

[spark cobalt]

Every year. Though you definitely want an internship in junior/senior.

[vapid jay]

Gotcha. So if I get started freshman year summer for example, it would give me some good experience so I can get a solid internship later on, right?

Gotcha

[harsh river]

i know a dude who got one first semester of freshman year

[vapid jay]

How does one even set themselves apart when getting their first ever internship since they have like no job experience?

[true harness]

projects~

[harsh river]

apparently the company liked his balls so they gave him a chance

[true harness]

wait so, part time during school? or he applied in first semester and it was a summer internship

[harsh river]

the latter

[true harness]

that makes a lot more sense

[vapid jay]

What’s “passing ATS”

[smoky quest]

convincing the manager/interviewers that you are worth talking to

[regal yarrow]

what is the best way of getting into devops without could credits?

[smoky quest]

that's pretty much a myth. Most ATSes are just fancy spreadsheet

[true harness]

an auto keyword extractor? that sorts based on some function specific to the employer

[spark cobalt]

Don't many companies also implement some sort of grading system based on what is inputted to that spreadsheet. For example, education level, and whatnot.

And then have some threshold where they just knock out everyone below a number

[smoky quest]

no. It's not that fancy. For most companies, it's literally a web ui in front of a spread sheet

I would also challenge anyone to implement something that is fair and take in account all walks of life

[spark cobalt]

I don't think it's that hard to, for example, auto filter out people without degrees for entry level positions.

People at FAANG be reading 1000 resumes for every person they're hiring is crazy

Maybe this is something AI will pick up soon 🙂

[smoky quest]

that would exclude people without a degree but who might have relevant experience

[spark cobalt]

Maybe that's why they make us type in all of our information again after the resume. So they can calculate YOE, and education, etc. with pretty good certainty

Dunno, this was just something I've been told from some managers when I was job hunting

[smoky quest]

and am sure they also set filters like age > 22 and age < 25

[spark cobalt]

Yeah that's a good point

Funnily the person who was really educating me on this was at Apple for a couple of years

[spark cobalt]

Was there something specific you wanted to know

[vapid jay]

How much luck I have, if I continue learning Web Dev (react right now), to get a job after 2 years? considering the fact that AI will ruin us

I'm 16 right now. I've done a few projects in Python, HTML/CSS, and JS.

Is it worth programming now that so many AIs are out there, coding for us

[spark cobalt]

Another one

[gritty rivet]

a) Someone has to write all that AI. b) absolutely nobody knows what the job market will look like in 5-10 years c) you're 16

If you find programming enjoyable and useful, keep doing it. Plan for university studies and worry about your career after that

[zealous path]

Returning an old meme someone posted here a while ago

[devout quarry]

Hello guys 🫂 I'm currently a high school leaver and I only started to learn HTML & CSS few days ago- I am not sure yet which IT field I'm interested in, so I'm still discovering these stuffs through YouTube. Any tips what should I self learn next?

I have a question, what's the differences between things like web developing and programming? aren't they're both programming?

what's a vanilla HTML and CSS?

so with that say, programming is like more logically?

while web dev is more about designing?

[true harness]

web dev is a subset of programming

IT and swe are the same in a lot of countries

it's a cultural/different country thing. in the US it isn't

[devout quarry]

so basically, what you learn from web dev can be also learnt in programming, but just not detailed like major in web dev? sorry english is not my first language

[true harness]

in web dev, the frontend is only part of it. the backend is where a lot of the logic will happen

[true harness]

I'm not sure what specific programs you're talking about, so I can't really say. I can only give generalizations

[devout quarry]

i see.. i will try to find out more by my own from now

[true harness]

why are you asking me?

[devout quarry]

i think I'm more onto design than maths(in it wise ofc), so front-end suits me more?

[true harness]

maybe. but it's not like programming requires that much math to begin with. just a little bit of data structures and you're good to go pretty much

[devout quarry]

i see..

[vapid jay]

can i ask for help on a freelancing situation

[true harness]

why not

[vapid jay]

my client is making me work with another developer and their communication skills are horrible. refuses to vc, have to constantly bug him to clarify and the fact his english is broken doesn't help at all. key information is constantly lost

client just tells me to talk with him unless i persuade him to talk with the dev. dev doesn't really talk with me much (talks with client more), i feel like a pigeon transfering messages.

what should i do here? i'm not getting paid enough and i already spent more time than it should've taken me communicating with this guy vs. actually coding the project
most recent messages. i feel like an asshole

[slender latch]

Are you paid hourly ?

[vapid jay]

no fiverr doesnt have that. already underpaying myself

[slender latch]

You can report him or both of you getting banned. (Not so sure i don't use Fiverr)

You already violated fiverr TOS contacting someone outside the website

[vapid jay]

not true

for a past project contact information was crucial, confirmed with CS they said it was OK.

i dont have an active order with him at the moment.

i'm asking for communication help here

[slender latch]

Then you're basically working for free

If he doesn't know what he wants it's a red flag. Rollercoaster development

[vapid jay]

he knows what he wants, the dev doesnt

[slender latch]

Then tell him you won't work with it. If the dev won't talk. It's a waste of time

You should look for someone else better.

[vapid jay]

i'd rather exhaust my other options before that, do you have any communication tips?

[slender latch]

Don't spend too much time talking, just be clear what you want and wait

Is the project even big?

[vapid jay]

no, simple selenium automation that would take me 1-2 hours with all information. (already 80% done, cant move past because of no information)

but thank you for that tip

[slender latch]

But why does he want you to talk to someone else?

[vapid jay]

not experienced with memory reading so he found a guy that is

[slender latch]

What language does he speak?

[vapid jay]

vietnamese

[slender latch]

You can try asking him to write it in Vietnamese then use a translator or ask random vietnamese in this group to translate it.

[vapid jay]

cheers i will consider that

[slender latch]

If she/he still won't reply then he/shee probably doesn't know how to do it.

[hearty island]

hm i found an interesting way to find open positions

[peak halo]

@scarlet turret please remove your messages from this channel and ask in a new #1035199133436354600 thread.

[scarlet turret]

Ok

[azure jacinth]

Hello, everyone. I asked for help here a few weeks ago, regarding starting an app development business. I bought the business license already, and I'm working on the job ad right now. Would this be an appropriate place to seek feedback with what to include in that ad? If not, would anybody be willing to help me privately with it? I have a friend who owns a chat bot business. He has agreed to help me with the interviewing part, since I don't know much about Flutter. I could ask him about this, but I'm worried I'd be asking too much of him. 😇

[dapper bane]

when should i be like “Yes I am ready for freelancing “

?

[hearty island]

look at the stuff fiver and other freelance companies offer and see if you’re able to do them. if you can, then maybe it’s time to start

[balmy mural]

I'd say once you've made the necessary connections to freelance and you have a few years of experience in the domain you want to freelance in

[dapper bane]

hey how do i see the the stuff that they made ?

[hearty island]

i think if you make an account on fiverr you should be able to see the jobs people post on there

[hearty island]

quick question. how many internships should i fit on my resume? so far i did 3, but i only have 2 listed. i'll have my 4th this summer

[gritty rivet]

Depends on what internships, what you want to include about them, what jobs you're applying for, what else is on your resume, etc.

[hearty island]

right. i was thinking i'd have 2 on my resume and just list my third too

[true harness]

👏 demonstrated👏 skills👏

[hearty island]

yep

[true harness]

write nice bullet points

[near ocean]

Fancy numbers in the bullet points

[smoky quest]

Let's say you want to start a game project and are recruiting your classmates.
But you can only pick 2 of them.
So you want to see in their resumes 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏 that are useful for that project.

It's the same problem here

They may not have written a game before, but they may have written some graphic program which could use some skills that are reusable for your game

[deft herald]

How does one get 4 internships?

[hearty island]

by applying

isn’t 4 internships normal?

[smoky quest]

not really

[deft herald]

Throughout a 4-year degree?

[hearty island]

yes

[deft herald]

i'd say 3 max is normal. One for each summer between years

[hearty island]

hm

[near ocean]

Didnt we have someone in the chat with like 6 or 7 of them? Across multiple degrees though

[deft herald]

I guess if you cram your 4 year degree into 5 years like i did, you could do it

[hearty island]

yeah i transferred schools mid way through the sem(didn’t like the school and did poorly) so i have to do an extra two sems

[deft herald]

Exactly what i did 😄

[hearty island]

that’s probably why

i could’ve had 6 internships if i did my uhg one and textron. also i switched majors too from cs to business analytics

[near ocean]

How many years exp is that total 💀

[deft herald]

what does one internship count as? 1/4 year?

[hearty island]

ok so my first internship was one month. textron was 3. my 4th internship was one month. uhg was 3. my current one is going to be 9 months. my next one will be another 3. that’s 19 months. 1.5 years of XP

[near ocean]

Holy based, thats where I am in life right now

[hearty island]

but i missed out on 6 months so 😭. i got the textron one during the pandemic and they insisted to come in person and my mom just couldn’t let me because of my bad mental health at the time 😦. uhg i missed out on bc of bad mental health as well

the good news is that my current internship wants me to come back september 1st so i can recoup some of my lost XP

so yes 4 internships

[fluid fern]

my university has a mandatory internships during your breaks, 4 year programs are required to do 2, 5 years 3, I was also one of the few that did more than 3 for my 5 year via research position at my university

[hearty island]

oh i forgot i have a mandatory internship at Northwell as part of my senior year too. that’s technically 6 then plus my return offer

[near ocean]

I didnt do any internships, was a huge mistake and made it impossibly harder to get a job after

[hearty island]

my friend is in that boat. i’m trying to help him land a PM job but it’s hard bc we are in the same industry

he’s a 4.0 student with a BBA and MBA

[near ocean]

I should have taken referrals from friends but i was irrationally scared i'd put them on the spot

[hearty island]

i'm thinking of referring him

[smoky quest]

have a life too

[near ocean]

Oh well, live and learn, always take referrals if you can

[hearty island]

i know i try my best

[hearty island]

i think people in my college underestimate internships somehow. most graduate without one

yeah i go to a mid school so. then again there are outliers like people landing internships at apple, goldman sachs, etc.

[true harness]

stop sending pithinkable messages then 😛

[vapid jay]

what country are you from ?

[hearty island]

US

[vapid jay]

oh ok its the same in france really i dont know anyone who's doing an internship

[hearty island]

nah i defo don’t go to the best college

so it’s prob bc of that

[vapid jay]

yeah uni is a lot different here, most cs majors in my uni are lazy ppl lol, like 70% of my class don't even care abt programming or cs in general. Like the actual talented people just find jobs whilst they're at uni then drop out once they've found one

which is what I'm doing rn

[smoky quest]

I would recommend to complete your degree though

[vapid jay]

Really ? Most of the stuff we are doing is stuff I learnt years ago it's pretty useless

I guess if I haven't found a job by the end of my second year I'll stick with it

[smoky quest]

are you a first year?
The absence of a degree means people will pay you less and reduces the chances for your career

[vapid jay]

Yeah I am, is a degree that important ?

[true harness]

it might be different in France

[smoky quest]

totally

[smoky quest]

they do care even more about degrees than in the USA

like for instance, some companies even have salary grids that depend on which school you went

[vapid jay]

one of my mates found a job with good pay a few months in to his first year

[vapid jay]

in France ????

[smoky quest]

the area pays well, but it doesn't mean they will be paid as well as someone who did complete their studies

[smoky quest]

You didn't know?
There is also a clear difference in career between someone with a dut/bts, someone with a license and then someone with a masters

that's why people talk about "technicians" below masters

[vapid jay]

I knew there was difference between someone with a licence and a bts but didn't know there was a difference between what uni you go to

is there like a ranking of unis, if there is mine is defo at the bottom

[hearty island]

so is mine

[smoky quest]

yeah, that's why you should aim for a masters or ingenieur if you can. That will change your life

[vapid jay]

are you working in france ?

[smoky quest]

no

[vapid jay]

did you go to school in france ?

[smoky quest]

yeah

[vapid jay]

where are you working if I may ask

[smoky quest]

USA

[fallen spire]

Whats salary for principal level engineer in France?

[vapid jay]

damn are you french or american or

[smoky quest]

I like to keep an air of mystery

[vapid jay]

well my friend is on abt 30k euro a year he's 18

[vapid jay]

eh

[smoky quest]

What I can tell you is that your career will be as great as what you invest right now in your studies and career.
So aim high and study and make sure you invest properly in your future. Because how you deal with your last few years of education will set the course for your whole 40+ career

if your classes are easy, then great. That gives you more time to dive deeper into the subjects and get to a better masters

The cool stuff will also start a bit later. The first year or so is just about imparting the basic stuff so everyone is on the same page

[vapid jay]

Yeah I've always been lazy but I'm still always trying to learn new things all the time, I guess maybe I'll stick with uni if you're saying it's worth it (I'll do some more research myself ofc)

[smoky quest]

also if the fac isn't for you, look for more specialized schools.
Like aim for an ecole d'inge where it's more directed

assuming your grades can afford one

[vapid jay]

I like the freedom tbh, i like not having many hours

[smoky quest]

and as pointed out earlier, your career will reflect that investment 😉

not a problem in itself, just making sure you are okay with the outcome

[vapid jay]

yh i get that, i think i'd off myself if i had to do 27 hour weeks like in lycée

[dusty trail]

Uni is useless. Its morr costly, less effective, and you still dont learn to drink

[vapid jay]

it's not costly in france fortunately, we get paid to go 🤣

[dusty trail]

So its extrenely costly then

[vapid jay]

huh

[smoky quest]

It's what you make of it

[dusty trail]

Who do you think paid for it?

[smoky quest]

Unfortunately, the lower on the ladder, the more hours one may have to work

[dusty trail]

Either someone else sold their future to pay for it, or you did

[vapid jay]

taxes ?

[dusty trail]

Exactly.

[smoky quest]

and having a better educated population is a bad thing?

[vapid jay]

true true

[vapid jay]

It's still great tho, in america people spend thousands for a degree and then they have to pay taxes anyway

The tax rate may be a bit higher but it's worth it

[harsh river]

it's sort of a tiered system though, you only pay the extra rate on the extra income

[dusty trail]

Having an exceptionally expensive population that is too expensive to hire is. Especially when the environment is hostile towards new business development or R&D.

[smoky quest]

Speaking about the USA or France? Because the salary in France aren't higher than other EU countries.
The benefit of an educated population is they can generate more value

[dusty trail]

I really hate to be the bearer, but given the baseline rate alone, its higher in france than pretty much anywhere in the US. effective tax rates for over 50% of the population in the states is 0% federal, with the majority getting money back.

France the effective within the same degreed track is 41%, before municipal and other county tax implications, which is more difficult to find, but seems to vary from area to area, if Im to understand everything.. OH MY GAWD YOU POOR FUCKS! 45% inheritance tax?! 36.2% Capital Gains tax on properties? youll NEVER BUILD WEALTH like that

FIFTY FIVE to SIXTY PERCENT!?

If you arent siblings? You guys will NEVER build generational wealth, get out, Immediately. Ill seriously help you get a H2 or E series citizenship, immediately, no charge. You cant have a family and expect to leave them anything with these kinds of taxes. This is robbery, and its just plain wrong.

[pine sleet]

well good to know

[smoky quest]

yet there is still tons of generational wealth.
It's almost as if you are rich, you can hire accountants and lawyers

Some people would also argue that not having generational wealth is a good thing for society. No one should be as rich as bezos or musk

[steady bone]

Is there any specific channel to post work related talk? looking for a python dev that has experience with building out quant algos?

[smoky quest]

here is a place to talk about work related stuff. But there is no hiring per say on this server

[steady bone]

Thank you

[turbid sparrow]

#python-discussion

[vapid jay]

which one will be good for me, if I'm focusing on money and less time consumption (or even freelance)

[odd pelican]

Do you guys know how to draw pixel art using phyton

[frigid shore]

hi guys, I am currently studying at school and can allocate 1.5 hours for programming in the afternoon and 1.5 hours in the evening. Would it be the right decision to repeat the recently completed topic for the first hour, and code for the remaining 30 minutes? And in the evening, 1 hour to learn a new topic and 30 minutes to code. Will such a format of study be beneficial

[spark cobalt]

Like swimming, you'd learn to become a better swimmer actually being in the water than just reading books. I found it much easier to take in ideas from the book, and experiment with them immediately. So instead of 8-9 I'm reading, and 9-9:30 I'm coding, it's more like: 8:00-8:05 I read a new concept, 8:05-8:20 I play around with that new concept with code.

Don't worry about getting that perfect ratio of reading to coding. Some things might not take that much experimenting, and some things might not take that much reading.

Make sure every concept in whatever book you read makes sense. If it doesn't, don't move forward. Keep experimenting and finding intuition on why things are the way they are. Even if one page takes an entire day, you'll be much better off by taking that entire day to stick to one page.

[spark cobalt]

No one will hire you off of any of these courses. These courses are generally very elementary.

[vapid jay]

bruh it is not elementary at all

and my questions wasn't that
suppose I take cs for python programming and then work on several projects and gain some experience
So can I do some freelancing or job after that

or maybe taking "web development" will be a good option

[near ocean]

Is it this one?
CS50 is quite literally the most elementary course you could take in harvard

This is what fresh undergrads take the first 6 months of their degree, youre not getting a job with this

Also >280£ wtf

[spark cobalt]

I mean, you "can." But it doesn't make it a viable and plausible path even if there's a miniscule chance.

Why should someone hire you over an experienced individual? Or someone that actually was in college for 4 years? What makes you above the thousands of college grads with good portfolios? How do you plan to make this understandable to employers in a resume?

CS50 is the most beginner it can get lol. It starts from Scratch...

[vapid jay]

is there any course that is actually helpful

[vapid jay]

I didn't know about it
thanks for info

[spark cobalt]

For the sake of getting employed, not really.

[vapid jay]

what about freelance

[spark cobalt]

Just because you took a course doesn't mean you'll know how to apply that knowledge well. Everything needs to be demonstrated expertise.

[near ocean]

How old are you? Can you go to uni?

[spark cobalt]

Freelance is even more difficult than getting employed as a SWE. Both the process of needing to advertise your service against very experienced individuals selling their services for cheap, having to sell your service, talk to customers, and the list goes on...

[vapid jay]

I'm in high school rn and ik java and python
but I don't have a really good financial condition rn
so, I'm trying to earn money

[spark cobalt]

You could try talk to local businesses seeing if they need some service. You're not likely gonna win in existing business, so gotta make your own business. One of my friends is doing that right now...

[vapid jay]

ik but I still need some money to start a business

[spark cobalt]

Friend talked to local businesses he's known since he's a kid. And have started building websites for them.

[vapid jay]

and what about them
if I take these courses and give my time
Will it be worth it?

[near ocean]

Yes because you'll learn stuff, but the certificates wont help you find freelance work

[vapid jay]

ik I'm not gonna buy the certificates
because after 3 years I will be in college
But I need to earn rn
I'm really broke 💀

[near ocean]

Whenever teens say theyre broke and they need to make money i dont usually believe them, ask your parents for an allowance or go find an odd job, work as a cashier, waiter, etc if its that urgent

[frigid shore]

Do I need to take some time to review what I have learned?

[spark cobalt]

If it's necessary. I had cheatsheats that I made that I would just go through really quick everyday. Something to do while you're eating breakfast, etc. Just a skim through to just refresh things lightly.

If something's not quite there or doesn't ring a bell, a quick review would typically fill the gaps

But to reach to the point of being able to pick things back up easily, it requires that you really understand each step really well, really experimenting and whatnot

There's only so many concepts till you're adequate enough to build your own game or website or anything

There's also sites like roadmap.sh to help you guide and break down what you need to learn to reach a certain comfortability in a specific domain

[frigid shore]

ok, thanks!

[hearty island]

woke up at 6:30 bc i couldn’t sleep, time to do some power bi

[spark cobalt]

Damn got a rejection from an application from over 8 months ago

[hearty island]

i got some of those for internships a while back

[marsh wind]

.... I guess hiring manager was cleaning up their linkedin or smth

I have a more wild story though, where the company ghosts me after 3 rounds, then other ppl approach me in 2 years, initiate talks, schedule another interview, ghost me on that interview and then approach me once again in 4 months as if nothing happened

[hearty island]

that’s just weird

[spark cobalt]

That's crazy

[true harness]

did you do the interview?

[hearty island]

let’s goooo!! i just got confirmation for my centene internship

[true harness]

I thought you already accepted an offer?

[hearty island]

yeah but they had to do the background check and stuff

[true harness]

surely you were confident you would pass those right 😛

[hearty island]

hahahaha 😅😅😅

they never called my current internship tho so

[gritty rivet]

I agree with old man... Your odds of earning quick money as a programmer online with no experience is virtually nil. Getting a normal job like a normal high-schooler is much more realistic

[vapid jay]

ik
but time will pass anyways so maybe not 1 but after 2 years I might be earning something

[gritty rivet]

Look at the freelance market, like Upwork and Fiverr. If you think you want to compete with the established people there, start building your portfolio.

[gritty rivet]

You said you're broke and need money "rn", so this timeline doesn't make sense but is certainly more realistic

[vapid jay]

I'm broke but I can survive and there other ways to make money for some short span of time

[vapid jay]

for freelancing, is web programming worth my time

and obviously I'm not learning coding and programming for just a living

[gritty rivet]

I can't tell you what's worth your time. But as a new freelancer with zero experience, you will probably earn less per hour than you could with any unskilled job. You need a client base before you can hope to charge a fair rate.

[vapid jay]

got it
thanks for the help man
wish you a good day

[gritty rivet]

Keep in mind I'm in the US, if you're in a different part of the world I have no idea how much of this applies

[vapid jay]

don't worry
India has its own silicon valley too lol

[gritty rivet]

Not sure how that relates but what I meant is, US$3/hour might be attractive or laughable depending where you live (that's the minimum rate on Upwork, and probably what you would need to charge to get started)

[dreamy spade]

It really bothers me how accessible warehouse and retail jobs are compared to tech jobs.

[true harness]

how so?

[marsh wind]

which one? 😂

[true harness]

I might be misinterpreting. did they ask for another interview the last time they reached out?

[marsh wind]

not really. different person approached me with a somewhat generic message willing to present me with some opportunies and stuff

so by as if nothing happened I did not mean they re-scheduled ghosted interviewed, but messaged me as if it's first time... which I maybe could have understood if it was big company and not start-up scale company of under 50

[hearty island]

man my boss won’t stop throwing shit at my centene offer

[marsh wind]

And maybe I could have understood if they guy opened up with, idk, apology? or by admitting something went wrong last time and to propose to start the process again, but seriously?

[hearty island]

like i understand he doesn’t want me to leave but badmouthing an offer like that isn’t good

kinda a red flag for me just makes me think he’ll talk shit behind my back

[true harness]

it's not really a good sign that they don't like you leaving an internship...

[hearty island]

it’s a terrible sign

internships are about growth

he’s the only one upset about me leaving

he’s like oh we have to re train yada yada but i never received anything training

[marsh wind]

just one word.... Run

[hearty island]

he’s probably gonna shit talk me after i leave 💀💀💀

[dreamy spade]

Warehouse and retail jobs are easier to get and there's more job opportunities for those industries.

[gritty rivet]

Less skilled jobs are more accessible by definition, and the availability of job openings has little to do with what kinds of work people prefer doing. Sorry if you're just venting but I think these are the relevant facts 🙂

[gritty rivet]

Maybe, but it sounds like he's just trying to neg you into staying. Do what's best for you and don't look back

[dreamy spade]

Less skilled jobs are more accessible by definition,

Which is why it bothers me.

and the availability of job openings has little to do with what kinds of work people prefer doing.

I know.

[true harness]

yeah, an intern should not be critical for any operations whatsoever. they could be sad you're leaving, but anger is not a good sign

[dreamy spade]

This is so frusterating

[true harness]

less accessible means you get to be paid more. supply and demand

[gritty rivet]

It bothers you that tech jobs require specialized knowledge/skills? That's a major part of why they are well paid. (If your point is that capitalism sucks I happen to agree with you but it is what it is.)

[dreamy spade]

It bothers you that tech jobs require specialized knowledge/skills?

No it bothers me because warehouse and retail jobs aren't enough to pay the bills.

This is exactly why I wanted to get into tech but the job market for that is exponentially much more difficult.

I want to be employed by a tech company because I can't employ myself. Being entrepreneurial is risky and way more difficult. I tried to be entrepreneurial in another industry and I was hardly making any profit.

I never imagined that breaking into tech would require so much blood, sweat and tears.

[true harness]

sadly there are many videos and posts saying that it's very easy to break in

[hearty island]

do you have handshake @dreamy spade ? if so i would try emailing a small local company to see if there’s open jobs. it’s worth a shot

[jagged igloo]

Hi everyone, I seek a freelance project in machine learning and computer vision research. I am also a part-time technical writer as well. The main object behind this is that currently I am facing some money issues and would love to sort them out through my skills. If you have any such opportunity, feel free to ping me! I would forever be grateful!

[smoky quest]

Hi!
This is not a channel for recruiting

[vital wyvern]

Re, halp. I was recruited into a role that, despite my background being entirely listed and accurate on my resume, has absolutely zero skills in common with what I’m actually doing.

Different toolset, and a massive focus on technical knowledge of accounting over manipulation of SQL/Programming Languages/Data Viz.

They used a variance analysis I did in R/Tableau to justify my slotting into this role with… neither of those things being business solutions they currently use.

[smoky quest]

It takes two to tango.
It's not a court of law from a movie where they will gotcha you into a role you don't like.

[vital wyvern]

I feel bad just telling them this isn’t really what I signed up for. Generally speaking I’m game to learn whatever, but it’s going to take me an insurmountable time to be qualified to a technical accountant level, which is the expectation, and this is a two month internship.

I’m the first external intern that they’ve acquired that wasn’t an accounting student I think.

[hearty island]

ooh is it one of the big 4?

[deft herald]

Interns are hired with the caveat that they will most likely be learning all throughout the job.

[vital wyvern]

Yep.

[polar veldt]

hello everyone

[vital wyvern]

Which would be fair, but they’re not… teaching me anything. I’ve been reading legal white papers for the last 6 days. I will continue to do so for the next… 7 weeks and still probably have a tenuous grasp.

[deft herald]

Ok, then yeah that's some hard feedback i would give to your mentor/supervisor

[vital wyvern]

They need technical accountants, not analysts. Nobody wants a viz made, they’re doing hedge linking and securitizations and derivative netting.

Like— accountant work. They’re doing actual accountant work. The job titles of my coworkers are “Senior Accountant”, not “Analyst”.

[polar veldt]

Where can i read Rules of this python server?

[vital wyvern]

#rules

[polar veldt]

alright thanks for the help

[jaunty warren]

Hi so i was wondering i recently picked up programming through various courses on udemy and an extensive interest, how would i go about turning a passion for this stuff into a career, till now i've worked warehousing and retail but I want to break into the development sector.

I figure stuff like building a portfolio is a great start but what else would you guys recommend to make my cv more attractive to potential employers?

[dreamy spade]

Where?

[near ocean]

Social media

[true harness]

everywhere

[true harness]

a degree in computer science

[dreamy spade]

If they are saying it's easy, my anecdotal experience doesn't reflect that.

[jaunty warren]

well let me rephrase xD without having to spend 3/4 years in uni and get into crippling debt

[true harness]

that's why I'm saying it's sad. they clickbait

[true harness]

it's possible to get a job as a dev without a degree, but it will be much much harder. you will need exceptional projects and even then it will be difficult. look into getting loans for a degree, many CS grads are paying them off within a few years

[hearty island]

i just got a hiring email from some home security company called Vivint and it turned out to be a scam 😦

[deft herald]

Bummer. This is probably the case for 99% of all recruiting emails that will reach out to you first

[hearty island]

yeah they were like emailing me then about a sales rep position i was like yo tf

[sleek egret]

yar

[sleek egret]

yes, I've heard that job scams are on the rise. which, to me, is quite weird.

[sleek egret]

most state universities don't cost that much. the average cost for an in-state public state university is $10k/yr. you can make that easily during a summer internship.

[gritty rivet]

Look for previous messages about WGU if you're really in a hurry and/or broke... Less than 2 years is typical there

[gritty rivet]

But if you're set on avoiding a degree, you're right, you need to build a portfolio. Study the job market, work on your portfolio, get feedback on it as well as your resume, apply for jobs, rinse and repeat as many times as necessary

[jaunty warren]

ahh well im just taking any work in the mean time, im not specifically going for the am doing nothing till i get a dev job. I was just looking for a reasonablely free path to a dev career, right now i was going through python courses and collaborative projects as well as the OSSU computer science github course? id call it but not sure

[jaunty warren]

thanks i'll keep this in mind!

[sleek egret]

the reasonable path to a dev career is a university degree in something technical. some 90%+ of software developers take this path.

I think that the key to project success is clear objectives, a good understanding of the problem domain, technical competency and a sense of progress during execution.

IMO, "well being" is a result, not an input

[nimble jackal]

I'd like to make some money on the side with freelancing, though I've got no idea where to begin. I've had a look on some public sites, and they're not viable in any capacity due to two reasons:

• Someone always willing to be paid far less than you are, e.g. $0.5/h
• Well-established sellers with a huge client base

Competing against these would be a nightmare, so the only real solution is to find people directly which falls under making my own client base. How could I go about this?

[zealous path]

Have a job, ideally at a big company.
Get good at your job so people know you.
Quit
Either join another company (or don’t, depends on your contract)
Reach out to people at the old company if they need freelancers or know someone who does

[dusty trail]

On a scale of one to nutso, where does screaming "I DEMAND TRIAL BY COMBAT!" at your python interpreter when importing modules fails for no apparent reason fall?

[nimble jackal]

Aha, now could you go down the freelancing route without being able to commit to a proper job yet?

[zealous path]

Me on the daily

[dusty trail]

I feel this. On so many levels. currently making two microservices as part of a monolithic hybrid application to tie in a notification platform as part of a technical interview, and I just feel like...this is so much extra

[zealous path]

Not recommended.
Either you’re REALLY good at programming from a young age and have a reputation online
OR
You’re really good at an irl job and have a reputation irl.

Here’s a quick question, where you ever the 0.0000001% of people that clicked on page 2 of google?
I doubt many people press on page 2+ of freelancing pages.

[dreamy spade]

This really sucks man. I never thought I would be in this position after graduating.

[dusty trail]

On a scale of 1-murdering spree, how dead will your first customers be if they dont pay you on time? Because as a free lancer, you may be chasing that bag owed for like..6 months in some cases.

[zealous path]

This is why invoices exist

[dusty trail]

doesnt matter much if most contracts are Net+30, and have to make it through receivables to begin that timer

[gritty rivet]

This is a well-stated summary of why most people who dream about freelance work never go very far with it. You understand better than most why it's not a realistic way to become a professional developer. It's for people who have paid their dues in other ways.

[true harness]

how does that not matter much? it's a lot less than 6 months

[dusty trail]

Because that assumes ita received, and processed, timely.

Theres gonna be a lot of instances as a freelancer where that wont be the case.

[dreamy spade]

I’m actually sad. I’m going to have to go back to working in a warehouse if I want to make money again.

All that hard work of passing exams went out the window.

[true harness]

it's only out the window if you give up, really. though there is the sunk cost fallacy

[gritty rivet]

Not at all. You can continue applying for jobs while working, including internal transfers. It's often easier to find a job while employed (despite the challenges of balancing the demands on your time).

[dreamy spade]

This is true.

[smoky quest]

same as usual: debug why you don't go through.
What's different between you and your classmates?

[dreamy spade]

Apparently, the program I graduated from is one of the hardest programs at my college according to a career services counsellors.

[dreamy spade]

I can’t speak for my former classmates. I don’t know their strengths and weaknesses. 4/5 of my semesters were virtual. I don’t know any of my classmates.

I can tell you that I’m extremely ambitious.

However, ambition doesn’t entitle me to landing a job.

[smoky quest]

have they found jobs?

[dreamy spade]

The people in the alumni, Yes. And the ones that do all had previous internship experience.

[smoky quest]

what about the folks from your cohort?

[dreamy spade]

The program that I enrolled in doesn't have co-op (Which was probably a mistake on my part) The alumni who enrolled in programs that have co-op got jobs.

[dreamy spade]

I don't know what you mean by cohort.

[smoky quest]

classmates

Out of the N people that were in your class, how many of these people have found a job?

[dreamy spade]

No idea.

Oh I know one that was in my class that is a full-time software developer

[smoky quest]

it's worth checking.
Find their names and look them up on linkedin

[dreamy spade]

But they took a different program than me which was a co-op program.

Not sure if that was the answer you were looking for. Usually people who take similar tech programs ends up being in the same classes.

[hearty island]

today at work i had to help my colleague with their vlookup and i tried explaining it to them but their eyes glazed over

[fleet reef]

Why are you not using an XLOOKUP?

[hearty island]

idk i'm old school

[ivory sluice]

your peers that graduated at the same time as you in the same program as you. do they have software engineering jobs?

[hearty island]

that's literally the only thing i did today and then i left

[ivory sluice]

could you find out more about them? it could be a good networking practice

[ivory sluice]

please keep the idle work chit chat in off-topic

[hearty island]

alright

[true harness]

what about the ones that didn't? surely some of them have jobs as well

[dreamy spade]

I don’t know.

[smoky quest]

them they aren't your classmates, are they? Were there any people who followed the same program than you with the same structure?

Were you the only student for your teachers?

[true harness]

you should try reaching out to them. there are bound to be some who are like you, i.e., did not have internships, but were able to find software jobs

[ivory sluice]

if a lot of it was virtual there was probably less opportunity to connect. but they might have groups/pages on linkedin, fb, etc.

[brazen island]

What do you think is the problem yourself?

[dreamy spade]

I think it’s because I have no internship experience

[dreamy spade]

them they aren't your classmates, are they?

They were in my classes. So therefore they were my classmates.

[spark cobalt]

Any other reasons?

[true harness]

there's a definition mismatch I think. recursive is asking about people in your program

[dreamy spade]

No.

[spark cobalt]

Ok then

[true harness]

no one that graduated from your program without an internship has a job in software right now?

[spark cobalt]

Not exactly sure how like the dozens of criticisms and improvements suggested in this channel didn't make the list, but the one thing we didn't say did

[true harness]

well to be fair, we didn't say it because they already acknowledged it. it is a factor

[spark cobalt]

Sure, but to think that the problem is something out of their control implies they believe they did everything else the best possibly done. Which would raise the question that hundreds of thousands of people are hired without that internship experience, so why isn't he getting hired over them

[dreamy spade]

I don’t know

[true harness]

you should try and find out. find the people that have dev jobs without internships (they exist) and ask them for advice

[hearty island]

if you go to your college on LinkedIn and click alumni, you can filter by graduation year

[spark cobalt]

Hundreds of thousands of people are hired every year without that internship experience. Surely if you had NOTHING you could improve upon, you'd have a job right now.

Is there anything else Keezy that you think you could improve on?

[smoky quest]

you need a basis comparison so you can see what's different about you.
Lack of internships isn't a reason for rejecting entry level engineers

[spark cobalt]

You getting hired is all relative to your competition. If you're not getting hired, it means your competition did something you didn't.

I think the root of the problem is you're not self aware. Pretty much everyone has ways they could improve their job hunting process, even those that are hired. Even when I was hired, I ended up learning that there were still dozens of ways to improve my job hunting experience that I never realized by just being in this channel. There's always room for improvement in this field, the fact that you think there isn't is seriously a red flag imo. Maybe seek a therapist or do something. Seems like your biggest enemy is yourself rather than a lack of internships.

[harsh river]

damn that was painful to read thru, and with non-answer answers it's difficult to help people

[ivory sluice]

i'm not sure what more engagement you're looking for from this channel @dreamy spade. but let us know if you need more help.

[spark cobalt]

It's just very difficult when this channel has suggested dozens of ways to improve, repetitively, and he still has the audacity to imply that he's a perfect candidate. Almost like everything we said was just never taken into account

[ivory sluice]

hence my asking if they need any more actual help/feedback.

[spark cobalt]

Oh, I wasn't meaning to respond to you. Just expressing my thoughts.

But yes, thanks mina

[old ice]

I'm currently in a math programming class in college (didn't learn python properly until about a year ago) where we've been learning how to handle vector/matrix calculations and series + summations. What field(s) would I be able to apply this to / what else can I do to expand upon these skills to better suit myself for a career in programming?

I've had frequent discussions with my professor after class about making the programs more efficient and frequently get on the topic of increasing the orders of our functions. I get the concept, it just gets tricky depending on what we're doing.

[peak halo]

vector/array/matrix arithmetic is used in scientific programming like machine learning.

[old ice]

I did look a little bit into gradient descent for that

[true harness]

also graphics

[gritty rivet]

Do look into Data Science if you haven't already, but like Software Engineering, it's a broad field that can encompass a lot of different things and the two can overlap a lot

[peak halo]

you don't have to compute gradients by hand in ML, but it's good to understand how it works.

[brazen island]

+1 Having a baseline knowledge of math will make you grok random stuff better esp. if you go towards ML, graphics, ...

[old ice]

I've been considering the use of summations approximating integrals that can't be analytically solved in engineering, but I used to be an engineering physics major and switched from it since it only caused me stress and headaches

[old ice]

I'm an applied mathematics + stats major now. I've gone up through calc 3 (I know that can be a little vague due to the difference between math programs at different schools), so I at least have some grip on vector calculus

[dreamy shadow]

~~nooooooooo, DS, ML space is full shooo shooo ~~

[brazen island]

I'm European so Calc 3 doesn't mean anything to me. If you like this stuff there's a bunch more subdomains you might like later on such as operations research, actuarial science etc. but these are further away from CS but still frequently use Python in soem capacity.

[dreamy shadow]

Calculus III covers parametric equations and polar coordinates, vectors, functions of several variables, multiple integrations, and second-order differential equations.

[old ice]

At my university, calc 3 encompassed line + surface integration / vector calculus

[old ice]

And that

[dreamy shadow]

Paul's online notes https://tutorial.math.lamar.edu/classes/calciii/calciii.aspx has a good website for individual topics. edit: Wow, it's still up after all this time.

[old ice]

I took a class on diff eq and it wasn't too bad, but I found it a little hard to follow at times since I couldn't put a face to the problems yet. I have a harder time with some topics if they get too abstract.

[brazen island]

Specifically career wise you should look into operations research, either contributing/making solvers or more applied to real problems, if you like the intersection of mathematics and CS. I'm shilling for this domain because it's a bit unknown

[old ice]

That's something I've been heavily considering, but I have no idea what the market for those jobs looks like or what the pay grade could be.

[brazen island]

I'd hop on LinkedIn and have a look. The earlier you start the better because then you A) know what jobs exist B) know what skills they require

[old ice]

Thanks, I'll take a look at it. I like using game theory but I can't stand statistics. Took 2 years of classes on stats but it still only causes me headaches. Might be better though now that I can handle programming better.

I appreciate the help

[fallow path]

Great News!!!!!! Cohort 3 of KaggleX mentor application is open. If you all can please share the application with your networks and refer experienced DS and ML professionals we would greatly appreciate it.
https://www.kaggle.com/kagglex

[delicate bane]

nah vanilla DS is getting crowded but the evolutions/specializations are open

[spark cobalt]

Too much coffee

[delicate bane]

relevant: #career-advice message

[hearty island]

if i have an interview at 8 AM PST, is that 11 AM EST?

[true harness]

i know we try to not say "google it", but that is one of the most googleable questions i've seen in a while.

8 am pst in est

[hearty island]

it says it's PST is 3 hours behind so 11 AM EST. just a sanity check

[pine sleet]

Yes PST is 3 hours behind EST
PST is 2 hours behind CST (best tz btw) which is 1 hour behind EST

[native narwhal]

For the past 4 years I have worked with digital marketing like Meta ads Google ads, mix in some graphic design, some web builder skills (no coding) like webflow etc.
a year ago I started learning linux, python, security fundamentals for few months but gave up since I already had a job and I just wanted that shiny 6 figure tech salary

Now i am a bit wiser and I understand that it can take me even 2 years before I am job ready really
Any advice on which skills would come in handy combined with my digital marketing background?

[hearty island]

yeah i have a project coordinator interview for UCSD and i just wanted to make sure

thank you guys!

[gritty rivet]

What you learn is less important than how well you learn it, so I really believe in following whatever keeps you most interested and engaged.

Of course you also want to learn skills which are marketable. The best way to do that is to study the job market and know the specific roles you are working towards.

All that said, if you haven't explored SQL it is useful for marketing/analytics, and if you liked building web pages, then front end languages (HTML/CSS/JavaScript) might be a good fit.

[kindred sonnet]

is there any django ninja course online? I want to learn for my backend career

[hearty island]

yay my I9 form for Centene is filled out we gooooood

[karmic merlin]

We are not an ad board. Please don't advertise anything here, even more so if its irrelevant to the channel.

[indigo portal]

This has probably been asked a couple of times before but how do you guys juggle practicing leetcode problems and at the same time when you're working on something or learning a framework?

Im just asking because I'm in the process of having multiple interviews.

[near ocean]

Log in, do the daily leetcode, log out, do projects if you have any ongoing

[spark cobalt]

Each Leetcode question should take the same amount of time. (That being, if you're unable to solve a problem after 20-30 minutes, you're better off reading the solution and understanding it then to hack at it for the next 3 hours. A lot of Leetcode and being great at Leetcode is exposure to different strategies. You're not going to be reinventing the wheel for everything and it's really inefficient to do so.)

Just manage your time with this idea of a set time for each question. If you have 2 hours a day, just do 1 hour of 2 questions and the other hour of projects.

[brave matrix]

guys when is the right time to ask for a promotion? I started my current job in January 2023 and I want to get promoted by maximum June. By promotion I mean a better salary, I dont really care about titles, is it too early?

[heady vessel]

Playing Devil's Advocate, what have you contributed or where have you added value to earn a promotion? In my previous line of work we were evaluated every two years, whereas in my current line of work we are evaluated annually, but not guaranteed a raise. I'm in my third year now in my line of work and I'm hoping for a promotion soon 👌.

[brave matrix]

good question, I've created a few pipelines, including a very complicated one, I've also improved the performance of an API that we have.
And in general I think I'm worth more than what I'm getting paid, my boss even said that everytime he wants to show the team how code should be written, he tells them to look at my projects.

[heady vessel]

Very good 👌 and glad to hear it ^=^ . 6 months may be a little early, but I don't have broad industry experience. Certainly after a year especially if you keep up the good work 🤔.

If you're a rockstar I mean it could be possible to ask sooner as you've expressed your desire to do so. Pro's and Con's: what's the downside if you ask and it doesn't happen?

And I can certainly sympathize with the idea that I'm worth more than I'm currently being paid 🤝, so it's good to continue to push, to learn, and to find a place where you enjoy your work and are paid what you're worth 👌

For reference, I switched from Engineering to Business Analysis. I'm much more satisfied in my current role, but starting over came with a corresponding pay cut 😅, so I'm working hard to learn and grow to earn more.

[near ocean]

Thats a good question tbh, should wait for more experienced people to respond
I personally haven't thought about promotions, I figure I'd jump companies when I feel its time

[heady vessel]

Indeed. That's a common career path optimizing method these days, to switch between companies to advance your career and salary. Not without it's corresponding difficulties, but common enough in the public discourse.

[near ocean]

Competing offers will always get you more pay than internal promotions

[heady vessel]

That seems to be true. I'm perhaps a bit of the sentimental type that wants to believe in company loyalty, despite however much evidence I may see that it is dead these days 😂

[brave matrix]

thats also why I'm asking, I dont see any negatives if I ask for I pay raise because the CTO is very friendly and I even have hes whatsapp and everything, but I havent dont this before so I dont know what are the downsides.
also I know its kinda cliche that "I'm not paid what I'm worth" ... but here in Italy the salaries are already pretty low, and the first few years you get paid like shit, but I'm not a regular Italian, so I think I can ask for a bit more, or at least change to a different kind of contract so I pay less taxes (I had other offers that the annual salary was a bit lower, but I would actually earn more after taxes...)

[heady vessel]

That and I moved as a military brat, so I kind of like staying put more these days.

Interesting perspectives and I'm glad you've given it some thought 🤔👍! I agree with old man mar, to wait around for more seasoned, valuable advice 😁.

[near ocean]

First you need to do some research on what similar positions pay around you

[brave matrix]

I actually took this offer because I saw right away the the team was made of good people and there is no beaurocracy internally (even tho its a very large corporation), but I dont think I even told them that I had a better offer (with a sign up bonus)

[near ocean]

Are you sure you're underpaid, and by how much

[heady vessel]

that's rare and sometimes culture trumps pay, depending on personal goals and context. Willingness to pay versus willingness to accept.

[brave matrix]

my boss knows I'm very young and I wont stay for more than 2 years, but I dont want to way for a whole year, because I can barely survive with my current salary

[heady vessel]

Certainly some compelling arguments you could put forth. To old man mar's point, data is your friend, and if you can include some personal anecdotes as well as comparative data, you could well persuade your boss for a promotion and/or raise 🤔. Again, good points to consider would be putting yourself in your boss's shoes to see how you would feel if someone was coming to you asking for a raise 🤔.

[hearty island]

damnit. a job i want to interview for needs 3 references

[brave matrix]

the thing is I dont have a degree, I'm only 20 years old (the youngest guy at our company, the avg age is probably around 40 😅 ), so thats my biggest problem at the moment.
but in terms of experience and knowledge I'm pretty good with Python and decent with SQL, I honestly think I have the Python experience of a developer that has minimum 5 years of work experience

[gritty iron]

Anyone know where I can find low wage work for doing coding stuff, I know python, html, css, and GML and a little javascript I'm looking for below minimum wage tasks but I really need money rn and I want to make coding the way I earn money.

[true harness]

below minimum wage isn't a thing 🤔. unless you do freelancing

[hearty island]

guess i have to forego it 😦

[gritty iron]

kinda what I meant but like is there a website where I can list services thats more programming specific

[brave matrix]

it depends oh how much importance you put on degree, but regardless my salary is normal for an entry level position, but my point is that I'm very good in python, so perhaps I could ask for more?

[near ocean]

I think youre overestimating things a bit here
Again, you have to do research on what others at your level get paid and make your case that you deserve that as well
Or better yet, get your boss on a call and ask how you can get to that level by june

If your salary is normal why are you struggling? Are you living beyond your means?

[heady vessel]

I hear you, especially since my background is specifically in engineering and not data analysis and automation in particular. This can be tricky to navigate, to be sure. However, again, if you can make draw up a convincing, data supported and results-driven narrative, then you have a better shot at success. It sounds like you're on your way, certainly, and have merits to base your request upon.

[hearty island]

maybe i can sneak this and provide my friends as references

[brave matrix]

I really want to ask him what I could do to reach the next level instead of just demanding a pay gap, I'll defintely do that when I go back to work

[heady vessel]

🤝😎

Smart, what can you do for the business. Mutually beneficial 👌

[brave matrix]

my salary is decent if I live in a shared apartment or with my parents, but its impossible to survive alone inside Milan as the rent is crazy expensive.

[near ocean]

You're 20, you can afford to live in a house share for a bit...

[brave matrix]

btw I said normal for somebody that has zero experience, its lower than the national average

[brave matrix]

nah bro

I lived abroad from when I was 14 ...

[near ocean]

So you are living beyond your means

[brave matrix]

you can try out Fiverr, but its very competitive

btw I'm not exagerating my experience, this is my first job, but I actually did alot of projects on my own, and I also have been freelancing for a while

[near ocean]

Regardless of experience youre probably not going to get a promotion big enough to help you rent your own apartment
You should consider house shares or living with your parents for now

[heady vessel]

I'm currently staying with my parents after my career switch. Not really what I had hoped for, but I'm grateful for the place to stay since the market is tight in the US. I'm bidding my time either at this job or another job to make more money and to be independent again.

[near ocean]

At my previous job i was staying in a house share, i had to in London
Got 2 raises of 9% but they were basically nothing
I even switched jobs for 50% more and its still not enough to afford my own apartment

[hearty island]

ok so i emailed the guy who i did my last internship w hopefully he responds.

[heady vessel]

Yeah, my last raise was 4%, which was still better than nothing, but when I took at 20% pay cut to switch careers, oof, it's going to be a little bit, it seems.

But at least I enjoy my job and work now, as opposed to hating what I was doing previously, so that's certainly something 🤔

[hearty island]

ok done i listed 3 references. 1 is my friend.

[gritty rivet]

Fiverr has been mentioned, there's also Upwork, etc.

[hearty island]

didn't wanna list my angrier boss bc he's pissed i'm leaving

[true harness]

note that it's a good idea to tell your references you're referencing them

[hearty island]

yep

[heady vessel]

Courtesy ;]

[hearty island]

yep

[sleek egret]

You expect a promotion in less than six months? lol

[near ocean]

Why not?

[sleek egret]

I during an interview of a kid, maybe 22 or 23, and someone asked him, "where do you see yourself in 5 years?" and he responded "as CTO of the company". It was a company with 50,000 staff.

so <facepalm>

[near ocean]

Thats not a simple promotion, thats delusion

[deft herald]

Because that's not even a typical full review cycle

[pine sleet]

you can't say he doesn't have goals

[sleek egret]

I wonder if I asked the guy "where do you see yourself in 10 years?" what he would say

[near ocean]

"typical review cycles" is what causes people to leave right after bonus season lol
Maybe managers should be more flexible

[pine sleet]

God

[sleek egret]

more flexible how?

[brave matrix]

he would probably see you serving hes kids at macdonalds 🤣

[near ocean]

By not waiting for an arbitrary date to review someone's pay and responsibilities

[sleek egret]

I have great respect for people who work service jobs

[deft herald]

How would that work in a company of 50k+ employees? There's gotta be some structure...

[sleek egret]

when should they do it? when they feel like it?

[brave matrix]

same

[near ocean]

We dont know the size of the company

[deft herald]

mm, true

[brave matrix]

but a promotion after 6 months isnt even that big of a deal if your outeperforming their expectations...

[sleek egret]

here's the problem with not having procedures... if you don't, then there are no procedures... and people will complain about that

[deft herald]

how big is your company?

[sleek egret]

your time horizon is too short. 6 months is barely enough time to determine if someone is competent.

[deft herald]

Here's another question i'll pose: would you fire someone after 6 months of underperforming?

[near ocean]

Why do you need procedures like this one, if an employee comes to you dissatisfied would you tell them to wait for next March or maybe look into why they are dissatisfied

[sleek egret]

very very few companies are willing to do that

[deft herald]

Exactly

[brave matrix]

yeah, by the first 3 months. that was my trial period on my contract

[deft herald]

ah, so it's a contract position?

[sleek egret]

management is difficult because 1) people want to be treated as an individual and 2) people want to be treated fairly (i.e. the same as everyone else)

[deft herald]

can you even be promoted on a contract?

[near ocean]

I think they mean their probation

[sleek egret]

you'll note that those are contradictory desires 🙂

[brave matrix]

I actually have no idea, but I woul want to change the type of contract regardless (pay less taxes)

[near ocean]

Is your role permanent or fixed term

[brave matrix]

its 2k employees, its very well know in here in italy

[sleek egret]

lol, you're what is known as a "problem employee"

you'll either be fired or promoted into senior management 🙂

[brave matrix]

permanent, which is actually very rare for entry level roles

[deft herald]

Taxes should be the same regardless of what type of contract you're on, no?

[near ocean]

Wdym lol, most software jobs are permanent

[sleek egret]

didn't he say he's in italy? I've heard that taxes there are not really that rational.

[deft herald]

https://tenor.com/view/officespace-whatdoyoudohere-talking-gif-12579604

[brave matrix]

yeah the problem employee who continually brings value to the team and the company, I love it!

[sleek egret]

exactly 🙂

[near ocean]

If you do continually bring in value then it should be easy to show to your manager and ask for a raise

[deft herald]

Yeah not sure how it works in Italy

[near ocean]

Whether you actually get it is a different story

[sleek egret]

it might be illegal to give a raise in less than a year

the labor laws in some EU nations are weird

[deft herald]

definitely start the conversation though. There's literally nothing to lose just asking your boss "what do i need to do to get to the next level?"

[brave matrix]

thats the plan

[sleek egret]

what if his answer is "you need to stop pestering me about such things"?

[deft herald]

That's their job to see your career progress. They'll be able to give you a much better answer than us strangers on the internet can

[near ocean]

Start the job hunt again

What else would it be lol, not putting up with asshole managers

[brave matrix]

@sleek egret ay everytime someone on discord discourages me from achieving something, it just happens quicker.

[sleek egret]

that's double-plus awesome

[zealous path]

Mood, only been at the company for 5 months but they slapped on 5.5% to (try to) match inflation, so I do appreciate that at least.

[deft herald]

Yeah realistically, you should be getting at least a "salary adjustment" every year and a "performance increase" as long as you're not vastly underperforming

[near ocean]

I dont appreciate it at all
mfs report record profits but they cant match inflation, gtfo here

[zealous path]

Apparently before I joined, if anyone had an EOY review a few months after joining would 2/5 instead of 3/5 so you’d get a decreased pay adjustment (so like 3% instead of 5.5%)

[zealous path]

Our department spent 109% of our profits so we actually lost money but they still gave everyone an increase

[violet plume]

Hello dudes, hopefully I’m not violating the channel rules by asking this, is there anyone like myself here who is currently in a different career path (retail store manager) and has any advice on how they broke into the tech industry?

I’ve obtained a cert in Python and I’m currently undergoing study for CompTIA A+, but I’m not exactly sure which area of tech I want to be in, but leaning towards Data Science / Machine Learning

[peak halo]

This channel exists to answer questions such as this, so no issues there.

Unfortunately, I do not think you will be able to work in AI or machine learning unless you get a masters in CS.

I'm not familiar with CompTIA A+, but it looks like that is some kind of certificate for IT positions? IT is different from development. I don't think it would help you work towards data science, either.

[pine sleet]

What's the difference between IT and software development? Not sure if one would be better than the other for me

[peak halo]

IT is about supporting the tech needs within a business. like provisioning laptops for employees, keeping the internet network up, or installing tech hardware at the office

[pine sleet]

That doesn't sound half bad

I'm going to be graduating high school in a month so I've just been thinking about what I want to do for a career and exploring different fields

[peak halo]

generally speaking, developers get computer science degrees, which are offered by engineering or mathematics departments. whereas IT professionals get information systems degrees from business departments.

[pine sleet]

Ah, never mind then. I've committed to a CS degree :P

[violet plume]

Cheers for clarifying, I am wanting to get the A+ Cert as I am able to get the exams paid for, I suppose the right way to do it would be to first figure out which route in tech I want to follow, and go from there.

Unfortunately a lot of tech jobs do require CS degrees/masters but I’m afraid I won’t be going back to college working full time

[hearty island]

"How do you keep track of information and tasks when working on a project?" can i answer this with STAR?

[true harness]

sure

[gritty rivet]

If you're looking to get into "tech" in general without a relevant degree, the A+ is the standard entry point. It's quick, easy, cheap but the jobs it gets you are relatively low paid. As long as you're OK with that trade-off, it's not a bad route. I'm a developer now but that's how I first got into tech work myself

[hearty island]

As a project management intern, I process a vast amount of information and tasks when working on multiple projects. Keeping track of everything is essential to ensuring the project's success. My organization relies on me to manage each project effectively and to ensure bandwidth across the board. I like to bring a notepad around me to jot down quick meeting minutes and then I input them into an email to send across all meeting members. Additionally, my organization uses a software called SmartSheet where I can track due dates, tasks, key stakeholders, and the people assigned to each task. By using these techniques, I keep track of information easily and effectively, which allow me to contribute to the success of each project.

(this isn't for an interview this is just me practicing with interview warmup)

[heady vessel]

Plenty of overlap with business analysis, more on the project management side of things, obviously ;]

[true harness]

this seems like a weak answer. it's missing the R. just saying you use a notebook or smartsheet isn't enough. you contributed to the success of the project, but what does that mean for the company? did the company make a lot of money, or did the project do really well? where's the concrete example?

[hearty island]

ok maybe next time i should include the tpa licensing project as the result and say the states were renewed well before their deadlines (saving the company time and resources) because of my actions

[smoky quest]

also putting it out there, there are routes for people already in the workforce. Be it some sort of evening or part time classes classes.

[thick otter]

Most data science positions will require an MSc or PhD. If you want that career field, look for a job as a data analyst or jr. data engineer and start build related skill sets.

[sleek egret]

and for ML/AI, the field is sorta split into creators of AI/ML models and users of AI/ML models. To work in the former tends to require advanced degrees. To work in the latter, not so much.

[vapid jay]

Hey guys. I have an interview coming up for Data Science intern on friday. The job posting seems to be focused on NLP and developing python APIs. I just wanted to ask if any of you knew what type of questions i could expect and if there were any resources online i could use specifically tailored to these sorts of interview focused question..like coding questions with sample data sets etc. This is my first job interview so any advice would be really helpful. Thank you in advance.

[midnight oriole]

hey guys Im pretty new to coding but I decided I want to take on a big project, I am creating a CAD (computer aided dispatch) program. This is what police, fire, ems, tow , taxi, etc company's use to dispatch units. I have most of the GUI set up but I keep coming into a lot of struggles, I hoping to find someone that wants to work on this together with me. I know this is quite a big project for a beginner, I just pretty ambitious. I'm also new to this discord so if this is the wrong channel I'm sorry.

[peak halo]

here are some questions that I would ask a junior NLP person:

• Define precision and recall. Give an example situation where you would prefer precision, and when you'd prefer recall. (The example can be general, and not about model development.)
• Explain what is meant when we say that an LLM does not have a world model.
• What features of spacy have you used, and how did you use them?
• What is the difference between named entity recognition and named entity resolution?

though it might be that the position is more about API development, and they don't expect you to know anything about NLP.

[vapid jay]

Thank you for the questions. I'll be sure to be thorough with them.

[peak halo]

maybe you can post the job listing (with the name of the company and the location removed)? I would hate for you to dig into those questions, and for it to turn out that it's not relevant.

[vapid jay]

Can i dm you the posting. With the company name and loc removed. If that is okay with you.

[peak halo]

sure.

[hybrid ledge]

hey guys

[toxic agate]

i advice you guys to make you own website it's really increase you odds to make a lot of works and get experience so yeah you should do it

[vapid jay]

Hello I am gonna start learning python on the side of my main job and idk what should i focus in python datascience or backend web
which has more jobs and which is better for a career

[hybrid ledge]

I have no coding background and I have learnt Python, now Im thinking about getting some hands on experience. Should I learn other things thing first or do it while doing internship. I am hungry to learn new things but I badly need some hand on experience or internship to keep me motivated. Kindly guide me and any help will be appreciated.

[vapid jay]

Hello guys, I’m really interested in learning Python, even if I have no coding background. Can someone suggest me where to start or maybe, a good course or something?

[smoky quest]

Hi!
If you are in HS or college, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[smoky quest]

Internships are for students to discover the world of the enterprise.
At your stage, you should learn and practice

[vapid jay]

I’m already working, so, I finished every school course.