career-advice

[true harness]

it's a waste of time, and they might blacklist you

[hearty island]

i try my best to find entry level project manager jobs

[zealous path]

Managed to get a job as a DA for a top 5 insurer so gonna call that a W

[near ocean]

Thats fine, but cropping crucial info out and then crying about it is kinda yikes

I've also definitely done the random applying, its fire and forget

[regal tendon]

Hello peeps, I was wondering, where can I find a contract jobs listing that isn't upwork, fiverr, etc.? I want to make money on the side while improving my coding skills. Also I am re-working my resume, I found the template, however it is on MS Words, and I want to reproduce using another software, which one do you advise?

[smoky quest]

have you done all of these things?

[vapid jay]

hey

anyone indian here ?

[buoyant seal]

https://kodare.net/2021/05/19/how_to_ask_for_help.html should be sufficiently plenty

in the mean time recommending reading some guide about how to ask questions: dontasktoask.com
https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources/guides/asking-good-questions/ or even this local guide

[hearty island]

yes

[vapid jay]

bruh

[hearty island]

that’s the biggest project i’ve done at the company

[smoky quest]

Great!
From a communication perspective and out of curiosity, why weren't you able to say so yesterday?

[hearty island]

well i kept focusing on two projects that i didn’t really have the most active role in. and then i spoke to my boss today and he was like well you forgot to mention the biggest project you worked on which was tpa licensing

[dreamy spade]

I’m annoyed. A recruiter directly emailed me about a position because they saw my resume. I called them to tell them I am interested in the position. Then they told me that the client is looking for “experience.” I told them I just graduated. I hate this shit man.

[true harness]

that's a dumb recruiter moment. don't worry about it too much

[dreamy spade]

I’m familiar with the majority of the tasks described in the job description. But I was denied because I don’t have “experience”

[pine sleet]

real

[hearty island]

this is fax

entry level role: 5 years of experience

[true harness]

internships. projects. education

[buoyant seal]

very low paid larbor ^_^

[hearty island]

idk man i won’t have 5 years of experience out of college. at most i’ll probably have uhh 11 months

[hearty island]

maybe i’ll have more than 11 months if i have my internship at my current place re-accepting me after centene

[dreamy spade]

Idk how the fuck I’m going to get out of this catch-22 loop. I’ve been suggested to apply for government jobs because they will take anybody.

[hearty island]

but i will also finish my degree soon in may ‘24

[true harness]

it's been suggested already. improve your projects, network at events

[hearty island]

maybe once next semester comes around i’ll have better luck applying?

[near ocean]

(also dont apply to jobs that want 9years exp)

[dreamy spade]

I did all of the above

[true harness]

improve them more. network more

[hearty island]

or 5 😭

[true harness]

probably. it makes sense that companies don't want to give you an offer a year in advance

[dreamy spade]

Ridiculous how companies value “experience” than skill.

[hearty island]

i really hope so

[true harness]

think about this logically. you're already halfway to the conclusion. you know other candidates have internships, and you don't and can't get them anymore. what else can you get to make you more attractive? networking and projects. you'll need to have amazing projects to offset the fact that you don't have internships

[dreamy spade]

I have respect for the company that decided to give me a technical interview (exam assessments) first before the in-person or phone interview. I think that should be the norm for tech jobs.

[true harness]

for larger companies, it is . it's a super easy way to filter

[true harness]

and iirc it wasn't really a technical interview, just an OA

[near ocean]

That was probably just screening, unlikely that it was the entire technical part of the interview process

[dreamy spade]

It said in their email titles that it was a technical interview

The online exam assessments are the technical interviews (to them)

[true harness]

I highly doubt that, but 🤷‍♂️

I wouldn't want to work in a company where my coworkers potentially cheated through the technical assessment, even if I was in your situation. only having an OA to verify skill is like letting me be a head chef because I did well on a quiz about knife skills

[undone lantern]

whats knife skills?

it is skills that sharP?
why is chef relating to python?
AI cooks?

oh its an example 💀

[true harness]

how to cut food properly.
it's an analogy

[undone lantern]

to be a headchef u not only needs cutting skills but also mangaging skills n leader skills

[undone lantern]

eww your vocabulary range is so nice. i wish i'd have that cool range of vocabulary so i can talk better. im talking like using super simple words. people feel like talking with me is like listening to children song bc my words too simple

[dreamy spade]

Well keep in mind. I have other stages of interviews to go through if I pass the technical assessments.

[true harness]

fair enough. maybe sous chef or line cook is more appropriate

[undone lantern]

um whats meaning of sous? gg tells me its coin

[true harness]

it's French for "under"

[undone lantern]

um what does under chef mean?

[true harness]

it's like, an assistant

[undone lantern]

ok

[hearty island]

omg a project mgt job that doesn’t require 5 years of experience… am i dreaming?

[true harness]

still. if those further sections aren't testing technical skills, you can't really trust the process to filter out anyone unqualified on their technical skills

[undone lantern]

i wonder how will comepany have worker when they all require too much experience

[dreamy spade]

But my exams were assessing my technical skills?

[undone lantern]

the world must definitely have some small n poor company that can accept no exp ppl

[true harness]

weren't they online, and asynchronously submitted?

[dreamy spade]

That’s correct.

[undone lantern]

um wherre are you from? @true harness

your vocab range is extremely impressive. cool native person

[true harness]

not saying you did, but a candidate could conceivably cheat through these. live interviews with a person solve this issue

[undone lantern]

wth your vocab range is going even more impressive than chatgpt ielts writing that it did to me

[dreamy spade]

You have a point.

[buoyant seal]

That is kind of understandable. Usually large percent of people without experience arent becoming useful workers even after attempted to be gained experience

And the rest which can be useful, take considerable time to become efficient

People without experience are investment that may or may not pay off

And amount of people to check can reach thousand for position

---

Easier just hiring Devs from middle rank. Hundreds times less people to check

[undone lantern]

why company still require exp people when it isnt rich? its weird

[near ocean]

Because experienced people can do things inexperienced people cant?

[undone lantern]

then what is college /university for?

[true harness]

it's hard to recognize the value of experience when you don't have it. as an inexperienced person

[near ocean]

Not for experience

Experience comes from working and solving different real world issues

[undone lantern]

true, but the world is like having holes

in order to not being useless ppl in asia always forge their children to be lawyer n doctor

[buoyant seal]

Attempt to even your odds among other not experienced people.
You eliminate 90% of your competition in this move and having way greater chances

Internship + projects + self studies can increase chances further to the point where getting first job and breaking the chains of inexperience becomes inevitable

[dreamy spade]

Experience != Skill

[near ocean]

Experience -> most likely skill

[undone lantern]

to immediately have job we should be doctor

[buoyant seal]

Even if u have skill, minimal experience is necessary to make it real life skills / polishing them at real world applications

[near ocean]

What do you mean immediately

[true harness]

going to University doesn't eliminate 90% competition. almost all your competition will have degrees

[near ocean]

You need tons of school and then residency to become a doctor, its the furthest from immediately

[buoyant seal]

Skills and dedication in self studies just decrease time to get middle/senior ranks proficiency

[undone lantern]

doctor immediately have job . however doctor salary in 🇻🇳 only 100$ per monthm they usually work extra

[near ocean]

This is wrong

[true harness]

if by "immediate" you mean "after 10 years of additional schooling and training" then you are correct

[undone lantern]

true

[undone lantern]

most country lack of doctor so i dont think im wrong

[buoyant seal]

😉 then u did not even count them.
There are like 10x amount of people from online courses in poor countries who try to compete with university graduates

[near ocean]

You are, it takes so long to become a doctor

[near ocean]

Those arent really competition, are they?

[true harness]

sure. then that depends on country

[buoyant seal]

Yeah, but there are survivors. 1 out 20 or something among those order numbers

Much greater amount of people are just robbed out of money by those courses.
And getting false promises of 100% getting job after that
Digital gipsies(online courses providers) they are called in my origin country
Courses from those companies are having high prices, poor quality and no transparent reviews

Better going to udemy / coursers for transparently reviewed courses on competion basis among course authors.
But this requires knowing English :/ which those robbed people rarely know

[hearty island]

alr good news i just have to do a centene meet & greet on april 11th and then i’m fine for the internship

i think i’ve applied to like 30 roles today 😅

i hate these jobs asking me how much i want to be paid

[sleek egret]

why is that?

[hearty island]

bc i feel like i’ll be filtered out

[spark cobalt]

Why not ask what their salary range is

Or look at Glassdoor to see how that company pays someone in your position

[hearty island]

well it’s $70K so i put $70K

[true harness]

if it's not egregiously high or low, then it's probably fine

[sleek egret]

think of it as filtering them out

[spark cobalt]

Employment is a two way street at the end of the day.

That took some trouble

[peak halo]

I agree in general, but it's less true when you're looking for a first job.

[sleek egret]

I think I was 12 or 13 when I got my first job

[hearty island]

i was 16

[spark cobalt]

I think at best a company may lower pay due to just innate risk of hiring someone with 0 prior work experience, and likewise, a person finding their first job may sacrifice some pay to get experience.

If one side doesn't get what they want, it doesn't become a 2 way street anymore.

[sleek egret]

both sides got at least what they were willing to accept

because o/~ you can't always get whatcha waa-ant o/~

[spark cobalt]

Compromise 🤝

[hearty island]

how do i have 51 hours of paid time off as an intern

[true harness]

as the famous philosopher mick jagger always said

[sleek egret]

that's about 6 days, which is about 1/4 of 24 days (or 5 weeks) over the course of a year

seems more than fair

[hearty island]

what is this math

[spark cobalt]

I didn't know companies gave interns PTO lol

[sleek egret]

51 hours / 8 hrs/day => 6.375 working days

[sleek egret]

it's rarer than PTO for FTE's, but not unheard of

[smoky quest]

happy to do another review if you want

[forest jungle]

I just saw a job that wants a software engineer with at least 4 years of experience for less than my state's minimum wage 🤣

I'm sure the benefits package is solid though, right?

[buoyant seal]

https://devrant.com/rants/6567652/serbia-600-month-for-full-stack-angular-dev-java-spring-boot-backend-dev-jenkins
This guy found job of being IT department for 600$ per month ^_^

[sleek egret]

I suspect they'll have some challenges finding qualified candidates

[spark cobalt]

Serbia, isn't too surprising

[forest jungle]

The sad thing is that I've been doing this stupid job search long enough that it took me a split second longer to go "lmao no" than it should have. Jokes on them though, I don't meet their qualifications 🤣

[sleek egret]

the average wage in Serbia is $1000 USD/mo

[spark cobalt]

Oh

[sleek egret]

on average, serbia is a little poorer than china

about the same as mexico

[spark cobalt]

Oh their minimum wage is 500 USD.

[sleek egret]

cost of living is probably a bit higher in serbia than china though because of close proximity to wealthier nations

[forest jungle]

another funny one- one of the places I applied for was looking for a dev with various experience, including knowledge of email systems (which was unusual).

I put in my application a while back and never heard anything from them so I forgot about it. Yesterday I get an email asking if I want to continue with the hiring process with the title URGENTLY HIRING. I say yes, they send me a questionnaire, I send it back, it gets bounced because their email system has crashed. 🤣

[sleek egret]

that's probably why it was urgent

[forest jungle]

I just had a chuckle that you could just tell that they'd had all this time and then the sudden scramble to get a fire extinguisher after the entire kitchen is on fire.

[sleek egret]

many people exhibit such behavior. it's very common.

[forest jungle]

Doesn't make it any less funny

[hearty island]

oh my mind was dividing by 24 hours 😭

[sleek egret]

I dare you to ask your new employer why you only got paid for 40 hours out of the 168 hours in a week when you get your first paycheck

[true harness]

"did you work all 168 hours"

[hearty island]

yes 😤😤😤

[sleek egret]

"the agreement says $15 per hour, not $15 per hour worked!"

[forest jungle]

Maybe that's the idea behind that $13 an hour job I saw

[true harness]

maybe they have stock or something

[hearty island]

rejected from goldman sachs for their tech role. it's ok tho, i knew i didn't pass that OA

[sleek egret]

goldman people are sorta weird anyway. they all have the same smarmy vibe.

[pastel thunder]

mind disclosing questions? if there is no NDA?

[hearty island]

it was just hackerrank questions. and they have a policy to not

[cunning gale]

Hello, I'm from Europe and I'd like to get a job as either a junior developer or helpdesk. I have no job experience, and i can't seem to even be able to get a simple job at a hotel. Is there something I can do to start gaining experience in this field?

I got intermediate level projects on GitHub and itch.io and only a highschool degree.

Thanks for your help!

[pastel thunder]

ok, DP or something?

i do not follow any policy if they reject, lmao.

better help someone else rather than follow stupid policy

[near ocean]

That doesnt sound very rule 5 friendly

[pastel thunder]

good memory!! keep it up

[smoky quest]

what kind of projects?
Do you plan on going to university/college for a degree?

[cunning gale]

i made a game in unity, took 2 months and has some nice systems implemented

[cunning gale]

yea at one point i'd like to keep studying

[smoky quest]

What skills does it demonstrate for a junior developer? Is the code complex enough and demonstrate enough skills?

[cunning gale]

i don't know what the industry standards are, but i had a HP system, weapons system using enums implemented and even a shop to upgrade each weapon, also enemy AI and dialogue system with multiple choices

just seems like there are so many news where there's lack of people everywhere, but when i send a resume to a simple hotel it either gets ignored or rejected

[smoky quest]

That's none of the things a recruiter for a non-game company would care about

[cunning gale]

yea i know. i also made a simple chat in python

[smoky quest]

feel free to anonymize your resume and send it here for review/feedback

[cunning gale]

yea ill do that, thanks!

[smoky quest]

how complicated? a simple chat in python is like a first year project

[cunning gale]

yea it wasnt anything too complex. next one i made was an email sender using dicts and date times

[exotic owl]

is python difficult to understand at all? I was thinking of taking some courses online over the summer, and taking a computer programming course my next year of high-school

[cunning gale]

its good as a first language

[exotic owl]

elaborate

[cunning gale]

simple syntax

[cunning gale]

this is the first part, scratched the parts that are a bit more private hope its good

[smoky quest]

there are no skills related to development. See https://roadmap.sh/ for examples of skills

[cunning gale]

oh damn this is good

[smoky quest]

I would suggest to try to find government grants or student jobs or whatever and go for a degree in university/college now

[cunning gale]

this is the second part

[cunning gale]

yea this seems to be the most realistic option

[smoky quest]

the skill levels doesn't mean shit. It's very subjective.
There is the say Show, don't tell. Don't tell people "I am awesome at c#". Instead show that you know c# by demonstrating that skill in some projects

[deep shuttle]

your descriptions of roles could probably use some rewording, make it sound more sophisticated without lying wold be my opinion

[smoky quest]

It's the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation.
While you could eventually find a job without a degree, that would definitely not be the same job, not with the same compensation and not with the same opportunities

[cunning gale]

thanks for the feedback man!

[exotic owl]

maybe show people some of your work for the "skills" category, or give a brief description of what you're capable of

[cunning gale]

yea i added my github and linkedin on the resume

[deep shuttle]

if you like cybersec (which it seems you do) it could be worth geting the ISC2 CC course? they're doing them for free currently

https://www.isc2.org/1mcc

[cunning gale]

oh what is this cert worth getting?

[deep shuttle]

ISC2 is also a more recognised body for certifications than online course providers

[deep shuttle]

I mean, it's free and relatively well recognised

based on your CV I have to assume you're not currently employed, so it's worth doing if you have some time

[cunning gale]

yea had no idea about this, i'll make sure to grab the opportunity, thanks!

[deep shuttle]

no worries, just remembered I'd read about the free exams and saw you had some cybersec courses on your cv already so figured it could be good :)

[vapid jay]

I'm trying to learn python and I'm a beginner with basically everything where can i start? i heard that python is a great first language to get started in and if not what should I try to learn?

[buoyant seal]

do u have university education? are you at some year student?

[true harness]

I recommend the book automate the boring stuff. what is your goal with learning python?

[buoyant seal]

Anyway, there are two really good options.
For complete beginners Head First Python can be a very good one
Introducing Python can be a more brief one run through python, more suiting people which have already some background
And yeah mentioned book automate the boring stuff another choice useful due to having many exercises (will be useful only if u go through them though)

if u are absolute beginner, with no university education => then Head First can be a very good choice ^_^

[deep shuttle]

this goes from absolute basics iirc

https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/

[true harness]

in my experience, that tutorial is too fast paced for beginners to programming

[deep shuttle]

ahh fair enough, sorry I've never experienced python as a "beginner" so my view might be a bit skewed

thanks for letting me know though

[true harness]

me neither, i've just seen a bunch of people try and fail with that, lol. well, not "lol" for the people that failed, but they just learned with a different resource !

[buoyant seal]

That is why head first is very good absolute beginner option. Many super friendly exercises for very low speed

[sleek egret]

snake heads, snake heads, rolly polly snake heads. eat them up, yum!

TIL that an old high school buddy of mine is running for mayor of our old hometown

honestly, that's sorta scary. lol.

[true harness]

how so

[sleek egret]

I know his dirty secrets!

[vapid jay]

hes gonna execute him for bullying him

[sleek egret]

hell, I know some of his wife's dirty secrets

[sleek egret]

he was more likely to be bullied than the one doing the bullying

[vapid jay]

career discussion material

Im interested in coding but possibly a quarter of progress been made. Idk what the python even for or how to make it fun

[sleek egret]

good for you

[vapid jay]

😎hell yeah im trying to impress my lads also learning

[pine sleet]

Stick with it for a while. If you still don't really find it interesting - switch it up! Try a new language, different field. You never know what you might find interesting

[vapid jay]

Alright

[waxen sand]

I have Frontend Experience in Reactjs, should I learn django for backend or nodejs?

[rapid tangle]

Guys, I'm beginning to write some research papers on AI and Deep Learning(I'm what you'd call an intern researcher), and I wanted to know...can someone recommend me an app or another way to make sketches and schemes to illustrate concepts?
Making those at Paint 3D feels a bit too amateur...even for an amateur

[rustic crest]

is there a jobs channel here?

[harsh river]

nope

[rustic crest]

thanks

[lethal quiver]

anyone a machine learner?

or web developer, i have a few questions

[smoky quest]

You may find more help in #data-science-and-ml than #career-advice for this type of question

[smoky quest]

Some people are. It's simpler to cut to the chase and ask your actual question

[lethal quiver]

As a web developer how long does your work take to complete, do a college student like me can find the time to do web developing to make some money or is it too much of a task that takes up lots of time.

[spark cobalt]

Depends on scale of project and your ability to do them to begin with.

One of my college friends is building websites for local drug store and local music shop where he knew the owners really well. They've been very flexible with him even when he's still very much in the learning phase.

Music shop does lessons so he's building a service to schedule lessons and also like a shop to view what he has in store

If you're a college student just focus on learning and growing. Making money with it shouldn't be your primary goal.

But this is one way to get customers for website building. Otherwise, you'll be competing with very experienced individuals charging very reasonable prices.

[lethal quiver]

So how did he connect with them to get that project, did he reach out directly or used a platform

[spark cobalt]

He knew them way before he ever touched coding.

If you wanna build something to be actually used and have users, there's an endless amount of websites that communities need built for free. (And you'd be paid through advertisements, donations etc.)

Very commonly, these communities are gaming communities that need things like resource management, trackers, and other stuff to enhance their gaming

I've built 2 that amassed hundreds of users monthly. Needs like no marketing just post to Reddit and you'll get your userbase.

Other way is ofc just going into your network to see who needs a website built

[vapid jay]

I need to send 50 msgs

I want to learn python

[spark cobalt]

Engage in the community like a normal person. People are more likely to help someone they've seen before or know

[vapid jay]

Will I get help?

[lethal quiver]

how do u search these communities? just type them on the browser or through some platform?

[spark cobalt]

Read #❓｜how-to-get-help

[vapid jay]

Oops

[spark cobalt]

Well what communities are you in needs some kind of tool that can help it immensely?

For example, is there something in your life that's very repetitive that could be automated with something?

My eyes was on the Tower of Fantasy community, they had none of these resources despite being those nerdy resource hoard type games and they have 500k+ monthly players. But idk about now

Starting with something that helps you individually out first is a good stepping stone to start helping others with programming

[vapid jay]

But I don't have any idea regarding python

[lethal quiver]

speaking of gaming, do you think web developer and game developer requires the same type of skill level or does it have way more depth into it?

[spark cobalt]

Game development is galaxies more complicated than web development. I suggest you watch Overwatch's 2018(I think) GDC talk to get a taste

[lethal quiver]

im only on the surface of python i haven’t really picked a branch to go with so im trying to find out as much as i can from people that already know more than me

[spark cobalt]

Take your time exploring. You don't wanna make a decision without knowing enough options 🙂

There's like 10 very general paths, that then subdivide into significantly smaller paths and niches

[lethal quiver]

well i kinda already have ideas of interests in my mind. Like web developing, game developing and machine learning

[spark cobalt]

Machine learning is incomparable to Game Dev and Web Dev. They're black and white.

What do you like about ML? And what do you like about SWE?.

[lethal quiver]

First on my list was web developer since it seamed the easiest to get into, of course the money would be nice but also the experience i could get from it

game development for me is interesting since i think you need to atleast to be creative to get into it and be excited about the projects that you dedicate yourself to.

[spark cobalt]

Game dev can get very deep. If you go that route, definitely wanna find people in your college that are invested into that route

[lethal quiver]

you also get to build a community for people and they can enjoy that, sometimes those communities can even help people with problems

my currículum doesn’t have Python, it uses C++ for the programming

[lethal quiver]

For machine learning, well i think its the future, how we create programs that can help us with our daily lives and even improve them. by gathering data you don’t really know what will come out of it, obviously you have some kind of expectations but you could sometimes find something more amazing

Out of all those things you listed i would say the most attractive to me would be writing gameplay and designing models

[vapid jay]

Is sql just sorting data?

[spark cobalt]

Netcode

[delicate bane]

when someones title is IT consultant, i feel like thats even more broad than tech consultant

[smoky quest]

From a career perspective, SQL is a useful skill to query and manage your data

[delicate bane]

or is that just me

[open frost]

out of curiosity, what is the highest paying job related to this field?

[smoky quest]

being CEO of a fortune 500

[broken shard]

Yo is app development in python better than in c,c++?

[spark cobalt]

Depends on the business requirements.

[smoky quest]

depends on the type of app and what you are optimizing for.
This is also not really related to #career-advice . You may want to check #python-discussion or #❓｜how-to-get-help

[vapid jay]

No

[spice falcon]

gm

[zealous path]

To add to what recursive said:
If you go into any data job, chances are you’ll need to work with SQL.

[true harness]

and probably most backend jobs

[buoyant seal]

even desktop devs, mobile devs (and sometimes even frontend devs!) use SQL just for sake of better local data management of application ^_^
universally useful stuff

SQL, it is a language which grants access for easily storing, loading, accessing, enforcing structured state, altering easily state to newer versions, quering of any complexity data
SQL is magic wand of backend devs and pretty much all devs ^_^ Learned by any dev during CS degree.

[cyan valley]

hi boys, I have a question I've recently got admitted into college, we're using Python as the program of choice ( obviously ). But anyways, my question is for someone like me, what advice would you give me in terms of employability and to make the most of Python?

[true harness]

look for jobs you want. look for what they look for. learn those things

[cyan valley]

I mean, I have at least a general idea of where I'd like to go with it. I'd like to Prioritize A.I or Machine Learning

[true harness]

take lots of math courses, heh. are you planning on going for a masters? fwiu, a masters is almost a requirement for getting into ML jobs

[cyan valley]

Yes, my plan is to also acquire my M.S

[vapid jay]

no im currently 16 and want to get into software engineering or something along the line of that i think it would be better for me if i were to learn languages early on

[buoyant seal]

Head First Python book it is then as recommendation ^_^ / or going through Automating the boring is valid too.
you are at the level where you need to learn reading and writing short code parts. Practical exercises in those books are quite welcome at this stage
As far as i remember in the beginning there is problem with reading even 10 code lines while user is not used

[vapid jay]

is their any websites or youtube videos that can help me in learning python?

oh sorry wrong reply

[vapid jay]

nvm i just saw your reply now thanks

[balmy flax]

Hi

[lean harbor]

are certifications worth it to do? or should I focus on just learning it on my own and showing projects on resume I coded?

[true harness]

not worth it

[spark cobalt]

May be a good learning resource, but definitely not something that'll hold weight in your job search or generally something you should add to your resume. (Some specific/well regarded ones should, but they make of a significantly small part of all certificates available and are usually domain specific / not relating to SWE skills as a whole)

Certificates only claim you know something, even if you do, it doesn't tell the employer if you can actually use this knowledge well. So you ultimately get back to projects.

[dreamy spade]

"Experience" , "Experience" . Sick of this.

Gatekeeping opportunities for the new guys like me. There's hardly any junior/entry-level positions

[true harness]

that doesn't look like an entry level job. entry level doesn't require experience, by definition

[true harness]

the most important "certification" for jobs in SWE is a university degree

[dreamy spade]

I'm saying there isn't much entry-level positions because companies are looking for 4+ years of professional experience.

[spark cobalt]

Companies can't function on only entry level engineers. Every company needs experienced people.

[dreamy spade]

It's blocking opportunities for me to get inside tech

I can't get experience if I don't work and I can't work without experience.

[lean harbor]

and if you don't have one in tech? or you just don't have one are you basically never going to be considered? or can you get by on projects being good enough?

[spark cobalt]

Every software engineer went through this. Why is it different for you?

[dreamy spade]

I'm trapped.

[true harness]

think of it like a cost function: no degree < any degree < stem degree < CS degree

[dreamy spade]

They probably got internships to bypass the hardships of trying to land a job.

[lean harbor]

@true harnessbut it's not impossible without a tech degree or no degree right? it's just a lot harder?

[spark cobalt]

Okay and what about the ones who don't. I didn't have internships beforehand

[dreamy spade]

So then you can understand my struggle

[spark cobalt]

It'll be difficult to stand out amongst a plethora of individuals who spent 4+ years in higher education honing their craft.

[lean harbor]

like if your prjects are exceptional but you don't have a degree, wouldn't the projects outweigh the degree?

[true harness]

right. it's not a hard requirement like a law degree. wilder doesn't have a degree and he is reportedly working as a dev

[spark cobalt]

Yes, but there's nothing stopping someone with a degree making exceptional projects. And they're more likely to have them because they spent 4 years in an environment of learning CS.

[lean harbor]

@spark cobaltare they snooty about the schools you get them from? or is it basically if you have a cs degree you're considered more as logn as the school is not like a total meme?

[spark cobalt]

Whether you'll get a job isn't strictly tied to a CS degree, but how you compare to your competition. For example, career switchers can generally get by without a CS degree

[true harness]

most companies aren't. reportedly, some companies are. the school you went to matters much less than if you have a degree or not

[spark cobalt]

Generally no. But a lot of companies do try to recruit for more higher level colleges and establish connections with them. A better college is certainly easier Id say. A worse college wouldn't be held against you though.

[peak halo]

this is frustrating dilemma for sure. but every professional developer had their first professional coding job, and a company that was willing to hire them for the first time.

[lean harbor]

@true harnessI studied econ but had to drop in 4th year, is it even worth mentioning at all? or should I just focus on developing good projects and letting that be my show of experience?

[true harness]

not sure. i'm not involved with hiring so i can't really give a good answer

[lean harbor]

I went to a top 10 college in my country but I had to dropout in 4th year. It was a stupid move but I have to deal with the past now and move on. The idea would eb some college would look better than none no? and then maybe I can get by on projects being gud

[spark cobalt]

Is it possible to re-enroll into that college? And finish your degree?

[dreamy spade]

I don't know. man. I'm honestly getting mentally exhausted.

[peak halo]

how many places have you applied to, and how many interviews have you gotten, if any?

[dreamy spade]

First time in my life I have struggled this severely in landing a job. I never had to go through this with warehouse jobs.

[lean harbor]

yes but the cost would be too much at the moment

[spark cobalt]

Have you investigated what your competition looks like?

[delicate bane]

is this haruhi's endless eight. kudos to you if you get that reference

[lean harbor]

also the circumstances of me leaving was I basically stupidly stopped going to classes and exams, so my gpa after 3rd year takes a fall off a cliff lol

[true harness]

you don't have to mention your GPA on your resume

[lean harbor]

don't they check?

[peak halo]

they can't get that information from the university without your permission.

[dreamy spade]

I wrote a series of exams for one company (they considered it a technical interview), I recorded a video questionnaire for another company and I also had a recruiter directly email me about a position. I called them and then they told me they were looking for an experienced developer. This all happened in the last 2 weeks.

Before that, I had 3 interviews.

[hearty island]

omg, i got a fucking interview

[peak halo]

okay, so four interviews, out of how many applications?

[dreamy spade]

Over 1000 man. I lost count.

[spark cobalt]

4 interviews in 1000 is super good for non degree

[hearty island]

can't do it tho, it's a commute to san diego and i'm in NY 😦

[dreamy spade]

1000+*

[lean harbor]

my goal was to work in crypto sphere, as I have experience as a trader in it and with options, so I wanna learn python for the data analytics aspect, but then solidity and other languages to build cybersec stuff for specifically options related crypto stuff
I know crypto space is a lot less "strict" in who they hire in terms of like traditional employment expectations, so I figured I might get by on just hard work alone

[true harness]

i was in a similar situation, but mine was semi-doable. 6 hours 😔. but they denied me, lol

[lean harbor]

a lot of crypto devs themselves are not exactly from a traditional schooling or employment background, so they tend not to be as snooty about resumes I think

[true harness]

are there actual stats for this? or just comparing with yourself. also iirc they have an AS or something equivalent

[spark cobalt]

Comparing with all my anecdata including college grads.

[hearty island]

but it shows that my resume can land interviews. so small victory

[spark cobalt]

I've seen a Masters CS with MS internship get a lower rate

[true harness]

not a good look for that person lol

[spark cobalt]

Eventually bit the bullet and applied to defense and got a job immediately lol

[true harness]

i honestly don't know. i'm only at 340ish after like...6 months? ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[spark cobalt]

Yes. I was around 4000.

[hearty island]

i was at 700 before i got my centene internship

[spark cobalt]

No degree and applied on the downhill of the market. It was tough

Insta rejected, 0.13% callback

[lean harbor]

have any of you applied to crypto sphere?

[hearty island]

wot

[spark cobalt]

No. But if CDBC becomes a thing I'll be looking into crypto (from US here), good money potential might spawn

[lean harbor]

do you think someone looking at resume will care if you note you worked as professional trader? like I could link my performance etc.

[slender crow]

Hi . is anyone has an idea how AI impact in cyber security careers?

[true harness]

these stats seem to indicate that your resume needs improvement

[summer roost]

If they're hiring for a role in a finance company, yes. Otherwise, no more than they'd care that you used to be a receptionist.

[smoky quest]

Imagine you are hiring a contractor to redo your kitchen. Would you care they worked as professional trader? It's the same thing here.
The more it relates to what they are hiring for, the more they will care

[summer roost]

We ban people from the voice channels if they spam messages just to hit the threshold. Consider this a warning.

Delete those messages, before another mod notices and voice bans you.

[true harness]

too late 😔

[dreamy spade]

Trying to break into my debut job as a tech professional is the most competitive experience that I have ever faced in my entire life.

Everybody is an opponent to me

It's survival of the fittest, the last man standing ordeal.

[pastel thunder]

has someone tried to take referral and apply to sde2 role as a "fresher"? what happens? instant reject?

[analog arrow]

I want to study computer science in the next 3-4 years. What should I do and what are some useful things to learn in the meantime?

[lean harbor]

I just figure that them seeing I have some experience doing something would be better than nothing.

[true harness]

why would you be instantly rejected if you had a referral?

[true harness]

programming is a fun one

[sleek egret]

yar

[analog arrow]

im good at python, but i feel like python is not enough

[true harness]

enough for what? there's always other languages to learn

[sleek egret]

not enough for what?

[hearty island]

anonymized resume but mixed in improvements from careers counselor

she said to take out the projects section and put it under my professional experience in the current internship so recruiters see it first

[true harness]

try using "small caps". your headers look too angry

[hearty island]

small caps?

[true harness]

yeah. they're capital letters, but they're small

[hearty island]

oh, ok. what font size would you recommend? bc rn it's size 11

[true harness]

no it should be a specific option in Word, which i think you're using

[hearty island]

ohh i think i found a tutorial. anything else i can tweak? she said to switch physically recorded important conversations with "accurately recorded meeting minutes"

overall she said she found it a strong resume

[ivory sluice]

for reference:

format > font > effects

so - you're not applying to dev/swe positions?

because content pertinent to that seems lacking, but that's fine if you're not applying to those positions

bullet alignment is not aligned

[zealous path]

I have a job but now I’m tempted to see what chat thinks of my CV

About to get absolutely roasted

[true harness]

why are the dates so far to the left

[ivory sluice]

the top Areas of Expertise section seems redundant

what does it mean to program in Python on Repl (2nd page under ANN)

[near ocean]

I don't like the bolding of keywords personally

[true harness]

it means "read-eval-print-loop". it makes sense, but not really bullet-point worthy

[ivory sluice]

i know what repl stands for, but you programmed a program in a repl?

you misspelled Career in "Carrer Summary"

dude i find so many typos on linkedin profiles from candidates haha. i always let them know

[delicate bane]

letting the chat know that resumes in the UK dont need to be less than 1 page. just general fyi

the experienced folks know this but the lurkers/newbies probs dont

[near ocean]

I would still try to keep it short

[delicate bane]

however, if you were in the states, id def condense it to 1 page. its possible with this imo

[near ocean]

Theres a lot of whitespace in that one and single column lists taking up vertical space

[vapid jay]

hello I made a script with python know a game a kind of mini mario to start I don't have them on git hub I grade it for me but I need an opinion know a .exe

[chrome summit]

My comments:
-Career....not Carrer
-Skills/Areas of Expertise are a bit repetitive
-MS Excel should not be a highlight.
-Dates need to be aligned and consistent. Seem to float all over the place.
-Have to be consistent with periods. Some bullets have them and some don't.
-Each job should focus on key tasks and outcomes. Data administrator aligned to this but not intern role. Not much to say since only a month.
-Data admin - bullet 1 - check grammar - Obtain client data and import into the system and assign job schedules sounds better.
-Bullet 2 sounds repetitive of 1. Maybe it could be combined. Focus on data analysis to identify DQ issues by...
-Bullet 3 - Reduced sounds better.
-Bullet 4 - Provided project updates during development cycle (sounds cleaner)

Projects section

-Creating is present tense while this is a past project. This error is present in various ways.
-Can be more succinct generally speaking.

Skills
-I wouldn't bother including Office

Additional Information
-Please summarize further - no need for complete sentences

[zealous path]

💀

[zealous path]

Fair enough

[true harness]

surprised you even got interviews with that typo lol

[zealous path]

HONESTLY.
I’m working a VERY nice job in London with that CV

Guess I just have a stellar personality 😎

[true harness]

maybe I should leave a typo or two...

[pine sleet]

please share with the chat 🥺

[chrome summit]

@zealous path feedback is complete

[zealous path]

Well, if I ever need to update my CV I’ll make sure to slap it in here.
Cause now that I think about it 7 different people looked at it and no one noticed carrer

[zealous path]

Thank you 🥰 I do appreciate it a lot

[true harness]

time to reevaluate how much you trust their reviewing 🥴

[zealous path]

Yeah…. :/

[chrome summit]

I am assuming you are in the UK. I was going to include jokes on the lack of Zs on certain words. 😉

[zealous path]

Good ol’ bwiish 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

[hearty island]

hmmm

[hearty island]

yep i'm not

[hearty island]

damn, i didn't notice it got messed up

[chrome summit]

not a fan of including Linkedin personally

Is that your resume? It is also missing a period

[true harness]

i've always seen it recommended 🤔

[chrome summit]

Maybe tech is different than Finance but I am not keen on it (although I will look you up if you are experienced regardless)

[true harness]

but it wouldn't make or break a candidate, right? it's just "eh"

[chrome summit]

just eh correct

[zealous path]

I feel like LinkedIn (for me) is more like “I have more job experiences but don’t want to crowd the CV so you can check the rest on my profile”

[hearty island]

oh shit, where?

[chrome summit]

@hearty island besides the missing period, I would just say Dean's List for Fall 2021, Fall 2022, and Spring 2022. No other data analysis tools? Informatica is really popular.

5% area

[hearty island]

oh i found it, thanks

[chrome summit]

Similar Comment for Lean Six Sigma - White and Yellow Belts

For the account society, any contributions besides being a member?

[hearty island]

no

[spark cobalt]

Your bolding should emphasize something that's impressive or something worth mentioning. Things like "list of APIs" and "file types" are not things worth emphasizing.

The more you bold the less that's bolded

[summer roost]

Sure, it is.

[errant fog]

Good afternoon, does anyone want to tell me your story about your first job? I would like to learn from the story of someone who has gone before me so that I can try to avoid some mistakes.

[buoyant seal]

it was a lovely experience, that time when i got hired to work for 367$ per month into small micro startup for python backend developer position 😁

https://blog.miguelgrinberg.com/post/the-flask-mega-tutorial-part-i-hello-world I got accepted because... i was crazy enough to complete this task of going through Mega Flask tutorial within 5 days and completing achieving microblog web site with its deployment. Fresh graduate out of university

[sleek egret]

does shoveling snow count as a first job?

[buoyant seal]

he means first dev job 😛 for first job i was shoveling things even worse than snow (it involved horses 🐴 if u get what i mean)

[sleek egret]

does fixing copying machines count?

how about repairing computers?

[buoyant seal]

first dev job :b as sysadmin i worked during university too and did all of this this stuff too

[sleek egret]

I had part time jobs repairing computers and fixing xerox machines while in university

[buoyant seal]

hehe, colleagues university sysadmins 🙂

[sleek egret]

tell us a story of your first job

[buoyant seal]

ergh, u disrupted my very long long story where i had a lot of wins and losses. lets listen his story then

[sleek egret]

you can't expect others to share without some reciprocity, my man

sorry @buoyant seal

[hearty island]

my first job was a cashier at BJs

[sleek egret]

I delivered pizzas while in HS. that was sorta fun.

[errant fog]

i don't have a first job with dev

i began to learn python, but i don't have a graduation for now

[true harness]

i still work at my first job

[errant fog]

need to go to college to start working?

[buoyant seal]

anyway, continuing the tail.
i had one tech lead (who did not code at all), one designer and one frontender in our team.

We had for some time other python developers of different nature
but we quickly learned that hiring students is a bad idea. Because they are just allways busy and super super slow. Junior dev can do within one day what they do for a week or even a month.

[true harness]

in SWE, generally, yes

[sleek egret]

I don't see why. child labor is a thing, after all

and if you work at a farm, you're even exempt from most labor laws

[buoyant seal]

we started doing backend in Flask, and i was responsible also for deployments of infrastructure. So i learned how to login into linux, deploying applications manually. But it was tedious process...
...i quickly learned how to deploy with Docker and got way more happier, because just with launching containers i avoided struggling to run multiple apps at server

Especially it became useful when i received task to deploy Wordpress stack. when i did without docker i struggled for two days to complete raising PHP server, MYSQL database and tying it all together. After learning how to use Docker-compose, i completed same task lazily in 5 minutes

[buoyant seal]

I received rumour about my aquitance learning Django and getting hired for better salary elsewhere. Got curious and learned as well
That was best decision for a newbie like me at that time. I avoided multiple problems with Python setups / Database ORMs setups / migrations and quickly was possible to make requested Admin interface application.
I was able to persuade that Django is way better fitting the tasks they request from me, and it was certainly a win decision

[errant fog]

wow

[buoyant seal]

At the same time tech lead was kind of scammy there, and requested me doing for very small money helping him at his previous project, which he coded very shittily in golang without any unit tests and without any gitops.
At some point my profficiency grew high enough to understand i waste time for nothing in trying to untangle shit he already made and invested all my time into main work with abanding those side jobs

Unit testing by Vladimir Khorikov was that book that opened my eyes on unit testing, i started to utilize it in Django with pytest, and received magnitudes better code that i was writing before

my code was often working and was able quickly checking it is working. in Gitlab CI at some point i wrote CI workflow for tests to run automatically on every commit and enjoyed having automatically my project coding making artifacts ready for deployments

[vapid jay]

Ok

[buoyant seal]

Other people in startup also were creating Browser engine. they were two students hired for C++, with skills mathing students of 1-2 year. They were reinventing encrypting algorithms from zero, and wrote pretty much again code in 3 months equal to one junior capable to do 1 week
and they had also plan of work impossible to complete because browser engines like Blink it is work of 100+ highest class Google developers and making it impossible task for 2 devs within 1 year as they wished.

• they did not need to do it in the first place because Requirements were making Browser with installed VPN! So they needed basically electron application with embedded VPN application

I discovered i can read C++ enough code to untangle this mess and requirements, and proving point this development was going to nowhere and was total waste of time.
I was not afraid of taking responsibility you know in startup, not being silent?

I proved my point by hiring several third party code reviewers to confirm my thoughts regarding where other people work was going

Anyway... since i was not afraid of taking hold of where the stuff is going i also actually reevaluated where we go with main project... which was totally built on web scraping and had... very... problematic flaws since we web scrapped search engines like Google. Which is protected by Captchas :/ like other search engines

I was able to point all the problems we have with going into this direction while going through different possible solutions to solve the obstacle.
You know... at the end we reached the point where we came to agreement the project is going nowhere as original design and requirements are kind of complete shit to complete ^_^

because cost of by passing Captchas for google search engine, and reaching any kind of... high performance searching is pretty impossible unless you setup some kind of efficient IP rotating system to bypass protection without its triggering
and in the end it would be still very fragile system impossible to squeeze anything meaningful out of it.
Numbers we received for cost to receieve what boss had in mind.. did not really meet reality after evaluating. And thus i am proud how i killed our main project at the level of performing System Design and Analysis

What can we say, except it was startup and it had bad planning.

for year non technical people were planning fully IT project without consulting with high level developers

lesson learned for money, that making fully IT project based on IT product without input from developers is a bad idea.

at that time i was going through book System Analysis and Design that helped me to understand better how IT projects are planned

as second project we planned this time with cooperation of developers
and i pretty much did it by the book. Ergh, second project was made and it was quite enjoyable to code
because i used fully infrastructure as a code

[errant fog]

were you starting at that time?

its amazing

[buoyant seal]

yup. first dev job i was pretty much novice at that time.
the point of all this mess that everyone else managed to be even more novice than me in doing their work
non technical manager
designer
frontend developer with geological higher education which went into IT through online courses
and tech lead that was database expert with 11 years of experience but as software developer he knew less than a junior (i saw fully code of his previous project... code fully without testing or gitops. it died because he did not know how to migrate it with happened new year and appeared all bugs from changes of dates. Impossible to find everything broken without unit tests)

i was learning very quickly... reading books and having a lot of practice. a race how much i needed to learn in quick time to do my job well.

well, designer was designing probably pretty well. no complains about it.

[errant fog]

I don't even know exactly what you're talking about, but it seems incredible, a junior dev doing this

[buoyant seal]

frontend we had made in React, which became fragile shit impossible to refactor to our all the time changing requirements in the beginning
because he did not have unit testing and well.. he did not have static typing with typescript which could have helped him too.

[errant fog]

from the project?

[buoyant seal]

the best phrases from our frontend developer: Unit testing and git aren't necessary for frontend development!
so he just saved code of project into zip archives ^_^

[errant fog]

it is true ?

[buoyant seal]

yup. it was crazy and fun time. my salary increased from 367$ to 5x times at the end of this job xD

[errant fog]

wow

[buoyant seal]

i have picture of funny meme i made when working already with second project

basically... everything was automated, each project was auto tested, built and deployed into Gitlab container registry

[errant fog]

what advice would you give me for me to try to follow your example?

[buoyant seal]

which with terraform was autodeployed into our staging environment, where it was tested by e2e tests and saved ready for prod deployment
then with one click it was autodeployed into prod as well

during this job process i kind of fell in love with infrastructure as a code (DevOps engineering), to automate my deployment processes, and automating testing for all of it

[errant fog]

lol

I thought the career was less exciting, but it's amazing

[buoyant seal]

everything is individual, highly likely you will have completely different situation.
But i recommend for sure going through State Two of recommended books in order to weaponize your knowledge to minimal standards of efficiency
#web-development message

Going through book Code Complete by mcConnel
and going through Unit testing by Khorikov. both books are awesome
ergh, list of recommendations is pretty much ordered there what to learn next

it is always a race to learn enough in your self studies in order to be more efficient and reaching next rank quicker ^_^ and not doing your job poorly
very much recommending self studying, reading books and doing pet projects.
will be awesome if you can do it up to 20 hours per week in your free time like Robert Martin recommends in the book The Clean Coder. A Code of Conduct for Professional Programmers, which recommending to read as well

[errant fog]

Do I need to learn many languages ​​to start venturing into this?

[buoyant seal]

if you go as backend developer? one language is pretty much enough for start
but high recommendations to learn as soon as possible Docker + Compose with book Docker Deep Dive. Very necessary tool for backend developer to have local dev environment with postgresql and etc. That is after u get comfortable with Linux at least, which should be your friend if you go for backend path ^_^

and eventually any backend dev needs to learn html/css/js basics. just not to be complete newbie in frontend.
book Head First Html CSS and head First Javascript teaches already everything that is necessary for backend dev

[smoky quest]

it's a journey, not a race.
This will come over time as you look into more areas

[errant fog]

and fontend ?

[buoyant seal]

also, just recommendation to get comfortable with Linux, finding your favourite distro and using it for everyday life. very useful for backend dev.
I like Kubuntu 22.04 LTS for example

web dev tools just work better at linux
Especially important if u are for some reasong getting in love with infrastructure as a code tools (devops engineering)

[buoyant seal]

if u are frontend dev, it is enough learning Javascript+Typescript(which is still Javascript)

[errant fog]

python works for frontend too?

just so I can keep going

[buoyant seal]

no. python in web dev works only for backend, and for devops scripting if nessary

[errant fog]

hum

[buoyant seal]

it is possible making web site with GUI with python only, through using backend framework

but without javascript it is not client side interactive. it will reload on every launched action, showing white screen in the process
with javascript web sites become client side interactive like a fully fledged application loaded into user browser
(and vanilla js is horrible to make something, best to learn frontend frameworks because they change model-data flow in a comfortable way of writing code that easily scales for newbies)

i learned Vue.js, choosing it as most stable and ecosystem rich solution that is easy to learn for backend dev. Enjoyed it.

Slight regrets i haven't used it with typescript yet, may be it would have been even more powerful and better experience than just using vue.js with jest unit testing

Also slight regrets, i learned value of python type hinting and mypy only many times later ^_^ Recommendations to try it much earlier than me.
Gradual typing nicely compliments unit tested code to reach quite high code quality, which is enjoyful to maintain and extend further... assuming code architecture is not too much screwed up

[errant fog]

so it's just me learning javascript that I can do something?

[buoyant seal]

if you want frontend only? sure. Html, CSS, Javascript, Typescript
and all other stuff from https://roadmap.sh/frontend roadmap.
But mind you, you are still needing to learn core software engineering skills even if you are frontend developer
at least if u wish to be middle and higher in skills.
many things people learn during university #web-development message

frontend development still asks to learn software development lifecycle, learning to gather requirements, learning unit testing, learning different code architecture stuff (hello OOP) and static typing
at least if u aim to make good stuff

and being able to interrogate other people, for what they really want on your own

[buoyant seal]

https://deepsource.io/blog/git-best-practices/
i often recommend just trying to sink into your soul 6 best practices for Git ^_^
Also going through head First git can be a good idea to learn it
and this interactive online game is awesome finally learning GIT CLI commands
https://learngitbranching.js.org/

Git GUI get changed for you, GIT CLI remains always with you with same interface. Always good investment to learn for full capacity
getting things if present from GUI, but if they are not present there, u can always get them from GIT CLI

it is a journey i guess, but for me first job was a race from the point of needing to learn a lot in order to get this startup anywhere.
It was a race of me learning enough to make a difference, and not drowning in all the problems we had. It changed with second job where i became just regular Jira task solver ^_^

ergh, with me learning software development further then others in first startup, it became the point that i was the one who... made the level of coding standards to not make a complete mess in it?
it is way easier working in a normal company where a lot of other devs are present with normal experience and skills ^_^ there is no need to try overachieve then

but when you work in a company where you are as newbie for some reason managing to get it better.. well, u a kind of in trouble where a lot of depends on you. Sure taking responsibility is not really demanded, but you know... it is better than just going with the flow to nowhere

this teached me... wishing to understand and own infrastructure and where all the development is going, quite useful soft skill of not being just code monkey if necessary
And also i got rewarded many times for my self studies, which motivated me to have them all the time as possible through my career

(And also this startup is my reason and experience for disliking of ever using web scraping again ^_^)

During that time, i got familiar with code of Searx open source guys who make their search engine aggregator through web scrapping... there i saw what a complete mess code can be. Code that is dynamically changing loaded variables and methods to modules on its run!

[elfin wigeon]

[dreamy spade]

It doesn’t make sense how the hardest job to get would be the first one.

It’s like getting a Chef job is easier than getting a Dishwasher job.

That shouldn’t be happening

[true harness]

why do you think it is?

[dreamy spade]

Because entry level carries less responsibilities than a senior and above position

[true harness]

why doesn't that make sense?

or are you saying that's why the first job is harder doesn't make sense

[dreamy spade]

Yes

[true harness]

sorry, I should have been more specific. why do you think the first job is the hardest to get?

[dreamy spade]

I was informed by this by one of my college professors.

“The hardest job to get, will be your first one.”

It’s because you get trapped in the catch-22 loop. Companies want employees with experience but I can’t get experience if I don’t have a job and I can’t get a job without experience.

[summer roost]

wouldn't the better analogy be someone getting their first job as a chef versus an experienced chef getting a new job?

[dreamy spade]

No because being a Chef is not entry-level.

[true harness]

dishwasher isn't in the same ladder as chef. you would start as a line cook, or something

[dreamy spade]

Okay ma bad. Line cook then.

[summer roost]

then - I think that's right. I'd expect that it's easier for a line cook to get a job at a new restaurant than it is for someone who has never worked as a line cook to get their first gig

[true harness]

ig if you're still looking for entry level jobs. I assumed after your first you're going for the "junior" jobs with like 1-2 YOE

[hearty island]

when do people in college normally start applying for full time jobs? at the start of senior year? or at the end of the fall semester? genuine question bc idk

i don't want to get blacklisted for saying no to a company that offers me a full time job

[hearty island]

my idea was to start applying in august. my internship ends august 11th. and then i'll be going to italy on august 15th (without my computer because i will literally be gone the entire vacation and won't have time to apply bc my parents have an entire itinerary booked ) and i'll come back august 30th. continue applying from there all the way till may 2024

[summer roost]

I can't speak for most people, but I can tell you that I started ~5 months before graduation.

[true harness]

a person i know started around oct, iirc, though i think they got an internship? not sure

[smoky quest]

anywhere in between

[harsh river]

i know someone who started during their first semester, albeit mainly got interships

[glossy glacier]

Hello, I'm looking to figure out what entry level positions want so i can learn that and better my chances of actually getting a job once i turn 18

[peak halo]

Almost all of them want you to have a relevant university degree, so you should probably do that, if you're able to.

[deft herald]

Entry level positions typically want a 4 year degree or relevant experience

[peak halo]

(and it's difficult to get the kind of relevant experience that they're looking for without a degree. individual projects are nice, but those in itself aren't going to cut it.)

[glossy glacier]

I know they want a degree

thats why i plan to go to college, but i want a job during college as well so i can gain experience and money while also learning more during college

the money part is perferable but it doesn't have to be

it could be an internship. But i want to know what do i need to learn to better my chances, I'm not saying having a 100% chance but give me a higher chance to hopefully get an internship or better yet a job

[true harness]

fast food pays well these days

[glossy glacier]

I'm not working in fast food, from what i've heard the amount of karens is unbearable

[true harness]

it's good until you can get an internship

[peak halo]

I worked in food service the entire time I was in school. you put up with what you have to.

[glossy glacier]

I can not deal with people either, I have shitty talking skills to like random people but if it was someone i know i can talk really easily with them

[true harness]

I mean, everyone you meet is a random person before you get to know them. devs need good people silks

[glossy glacier]

But in a feild where i keep talking to the same people over and over again Ill get used to them. and be able to communicate better with them

[true harness]

no one wants to wait for you to start communicating better. they'll just not hire you

[glossy glacier]

Thats why i asked, what skills do i need to learn, I never said it had to be related to programming, it could be communication skills.

[peak halo]

anyway @glossy glacier, internships are the model for employing current students. Because it's extra work for the company to find projects that inexperienced people can contribute to, and allocate time for more experienced people to mentor the interns. it's not very likely that you'll find a programming job that you can do as a student that isn't an over-the-summer internship.

[glossy glacier]

I'm fine with an over the summer internship. I just want to find an internship or something where i can gain experience

[peak halo]

so once you get into a CS program, you'll want to focus on keeping your grades up. and your university will probably have a career services center that knows what companies tend to recruit from your university.

[glossy glacier]

ya, student debt, the thing i'm trying to avoid.

[peak halo]

unless you can get a full-ride scholarship, you won't be able to avoid it.

though maybe you're not in the US.

[glossy glacier]

I am in the us

[sleek egret]

who else is in the US?

[glossy glacier]

and i know i'm not gonna get a full ride scholarship, so i'm trying to do everything in my power to minimize the amount of student debt i have, because i suck at school. I can't learn the way school teaches, they teach in such a shitty way, Sit down, Be quiet and do notes. i'm getting sick of it. Why does this happen, What is the use of this and how is this used today. Those are the questions i want to ask but i can't because its always sit down be quiet be obidient and shut up

[sleek egret]

um, in my experience, nearly all professors are quite open to questions

[harsh river]

or unless you have a disability😔

[deft herald]

What, you want us all to raise our hands?

[glossy glacier]

not at my school

[peak halo]

the format of university courses is a lot different than high school. each course only meets for a few hours a week. most of your time will be spent studying on your own.

[sleek egret]

and the guys I know who have taught complain that students don't ask enough questions

[glossy glacier]

really?

[harsh river]

i stopped asked questions once i realize my professor was incompetent

[sleek egret]

Generally speaking, a university class has 3 hours a week of lecture

[glossy glacier]

I would love that.

[peak halo]

yeah. you'll only spend like 15 hours a week in lectures.

[sleek egret]

even less for the liberal arts weenies. they only do 12 hours on average

[glossy glacier]

OH my god thats amazing, that gives me so much free time to learn the material by myself and do more research as to why its used and how it affects us. that makes me happy honestly

[deft herald]

You should have an advisor too at your university that can help you with course selections and career building type stuff

[harsh river]

WELLLLLLLL, for every 3 hours of classes, there's 3 hours of homework by rule of thumb

[sleek egret]

most professors have times where you can just stop by and chat with them

[glossy glacier]

I'm in highschool as of the moment

[deft herald]

Yeah i'm saying once you get there, you will probably have an advisor

[sleek egret]

about 40% of students can't handle the freedom, do poorly and eventually drop out

[glossy glacier]

I"M AN HONORS KID I HAVE 7 Hours of CLASSES THEN 3 hOURS OF HOMEWORK, AND YOUR TELLING ME I COULD CUT OUT HALF THE TIME I SPEND IN CLASSES?

[deft herald]

But honestly, if you're in High School, you shouldn't worry too much about starting your career yet

[sleek egret]

and double the time out of class

[peak halo]

high school is part education, and part state-funded babysitting. college is not babysitting.

[glossy glacier]

Bro lets go, that gives me more freedom to do what i fucking want

[sleek egret]

in fairness, HS (and earlier) is there to force kids to learn shit they don't want to learn

[true harness]

same with liberal arts education, lol

[deft herald]

oh there's plenty of learning what you don't want to in college, too

[sleek egret]

not "what you want", you have to study the classes you take

[glossy glacier]

Thats not that hard though.

[sleek egret]

but you're simply expected to learn most of it on your own

[glossy glacier]

and i know how i learn best. meaning i can learn faster than in fucking highschool

[sleek egret]

yeah, for the first couple years. then it starts to get hard.

[harsh river]

college classes can be a different beast than high school classes, especially as you go thru the years

[glossy glacier]

I already have to teach myself all the shit for highschool. its just a waste of time to be in school that long anyway

[sleek egret]

and some professors are... shall we say... less than sympathetic about pre-requisits

[harsh river]

are you teaching you the "shit" that the school doesn't teach?

[glossy glacier]

yes, like i've had to do so much fucking research on math for pre-cal because my teacher CAN"T FUCKING TEACH

[sleek egret]

I once had a class where the prof started writing math notation on the board that no one understood. one kid says "um sir, we don't take tensor calc until next year"...

[peak halo]

I"M AN HONORS KID I HAVE 7 Hours of CLASSES THEN 3 hOURS OF HOMEWORK,
the amount of homework that high school students are given is unethical imo. if you're already in the school for 40 hours a week, that should be all that is required.

[sleek egret]

...the prof just paused and said, "oh, it's not that hard." and then proceeded to give us a crash course on tensor calc in one hour.

[harsh river]

don't honor students opt in to those classes?

[glossy glacier]

I didn't i was forced into it by my parents

[sleek egret]

on the plus side, it made the next year's tensor calc class a bit easier

[peak halo]

sure, but I think that homework should be abolished, and that all the work of school should be built into the time that students are required to be in the school.

[sleek egret]

homework is designed to keep kids off the streets and out of trouble

[deft herald]

Isn't this actually a thing at some schools now?

[harsh river]

they're a minority

[drifting pawn]

Hey all! this might be a bit too early for me to be asking, but I've been admitted to a couple of pretty decent colleges across the US, and I was wondering which one I should be choosing?

I'm currently debating between UCSD (in state tuition), UT Austin (in state tuition, and I've also been admitted into their honors program for a dual degree in CS and Business), Georgia Tech, UIUC, and Harvey Mudd (small liberal arts college but there seem to be very good career outcomes on sites like payscale)

Probably the biggest question I had was how much a degree in some sort of business related field might help a future tech career, and whether name recognition (ex: harvey mudd doesn't seem to have as much weight) really matters?

[sleek egret]

harvey mudd has a great naval architecture program

[harsh river]

i don't think name recognition has a big effect when it comes CS related carreers

[sleek egret]

go to either UCSD or Georgia Tech (I'd lean towards UCSD just because it's in CA)

[harsh river]

i'd lean into the dual degree tbh

[true harness]

how do you have in state tuition for two states

[sleek egret]

UT Austin is a fine choice, UIUC used to be great but has fallen in favor a bit of late

[true harness]

uiuc is a top 5 research school, gatech is also really good. I would go with the most affordable option, though

[sleek egret]

I mean, they're all good schools

you'll get a better than fine education at any of them as long as you put forth the effort.

[drifting pawn]

UT has this sort of "loophole" where if I live in texas for a year I'll be able to get the next couple of years as in-state, it's definitely a bit scummy but its something I am considering

[sleek egret]

the surfing is better in San Diego

[spark cobalt]

San Diego is boringgg

[drifting pawn]

does name recognition matter for jobs
also UCSD hasn't really been too much on my radar as an SD native who wants to go somewhere else for college 😛

[sleek egret]

there are worse places

[sleek egret]

I'm afraid none of those schools are "top tier" schools as far as finance is concerned. they're all solid good schools though.

also, if you want to double major and want to pursue a career in finance, do finance, not "business". "business" tends to attract people who don't know math.

[pastel quail]

i’d choose ucsd, but if you don’t want to be close to home, probably UT Austin

depending how big the difference in price is between that and GA tech/uiuc

[sleek egret]

UT Austin would also be my #2 choice after UCSD

[pine sleet]

Did you get accepted to UT? It's a very good college

Only know 2 people I know are going there :p

(Reading up looks like you did, that's great!)

[rough patrol]

I am very much upset about career. Fall into depression about it!

[smoky quest]

That's unfortunate! Hopefully it gets better for you

[rough patrol]

Hopefully its not going! I have no mentor in this stage.Sometimes, i was thinking a lot to give up about life.

[slow cedar]

is it really bad if for example, I haven't done any of the web frameworks like Flask/Django/FastApi when applying for backend? Although I think I can learn it along the way

[smoky quest]

What skills would you demonstrate to the interviewer?

[slow cedar]

I mostly have created APIs using AWS and boto3. Although I don't have extensive knowledge but I did use Flask for some time

[smoky quest]

If you put yourself in the shoes of someone hiring a backend dev. If they aren't demonstrating backend related skills such as flask/django/fastapi, which they would have to do every day, then why would you hire them?

As a bad analogy, if you needed to take your car at a garage to get it fixed, wouldn't you want the mechanic to have demonstrated skills about fixing cars?

[slow cedar]

make sense but I did create some automation with asyncio for the concurrency which I think might be transferable knowledge, plus also relying on the documentation of the said web framework libraries

[smoky quest]

you can look up some of the skills an employer may look for in a backend engineer: https://roadmap.sh/

[main thorn]

I have a background in Physics, (teaching). Started learning Python because I really like it and enjoy doing it and hope for a career change. Now with all that AI/Chat-GPT stuff exploding, is it worth the time and effort to get into Python coding? Either for a coding job or a data-sci one.

[cyan valley]

Don't worry, AI like ChatGPT is kinda average at best, they lack any intuition. You're job is secured, but to answer your question, YES python is still needed, many asian country kinda rely on it, such as China, Japan, SK to name a few

[main thorn]

Yea, I know it's average right now. I am talking about 5+ years from now. Newer versions will be much better.

[cyan valley]

if you're suggesting that programmers will be obsolete in 5+ years, I'm very cynical about that estimate. I've tried chatGPT to do some task. It does it ok, but in some matters it does poorly on. I don't think we'll ever get to the singularity that many AI scientist are suggesting.

[sonic mica]

Hi, I currently live in a third world country, I wonder if a CS career is worth pursuing if I only wanna work in the US (because it's probably the only place that pays good money), I don't wanna spend more than five years working outside the US.
From what I've read, getting to the US is pretty much a gamble, I don't wanna choose a career based on a gamble, so idk what to do

[smoky quest]

nothing is ever certain.
There is also the fact that lower risk means lower rewards. So there isn't a specific answer to your question

[sonic mica]

I don't think so, my other option is med school, which seems to be a more straightforward path to immigration

Egypt, and what's wrong with picking where to work based on pay?

[smoky quest]

you may end up hating it and not performing as well (and sometimes failing)

[sonic mica]

Apologies for the late reply;
Anyways, Even with the increased cost-of-living, my take-home income would still be higher than almost all other countries, especially in managerial positions

[sonic mica]

Well, I'd have wasted a year or two of my life, not 4

[smoky quest]

it depends.
Coming to the USA to study is not that easy but it's also very expensive without rich parents.
And coming to the USA for work means you would most likely require a degree to get into the quotas. Which implies spending quite a few years (especially for doctors) to get that degree

but yeah, if you have a way to optimize your path, go for it

[sonic mica]

Public education here in egypt is free, including med school, it'll be 5 years med, 2 training, 3~5 residency abroad

[smoky quest]

yep. So that does mean quite a few years of commitment.
Plus, you have to be good enough to be picked up over the other candidates trying to come to USA

[sonic mica]

Afaik, if I do research and electives I'll have a good chance.
But I don't wanna go to the US specifically, the reason I wanna go there if I become an SE is the pay

Doctors on the other hand get paid well almost everywhere (as in most first world countries), not just the US

[spark cobalt]

Canada also pays pretty well too. CBDC looks pretty scary on US part, if things keep going this way market instability will be happening.

[sonic mica]

CBDC? Never heard of that before

[spark cobalt]

Fully digitized currency

[sonic mica]

And why would that affect SE jobs?

[spark cobalt]

Stands for Central Bank Digital Currency

It will affect economy as a whole. No one likes the government being able to monitor every single transaction happening, on top of transfer to CBDC historically has caused huge market instability

For example, India

I'm just saying that the US might just end up with severe layoffs forcing you to be deported back home going back to square one.

[sonic mica]

I see, I wonder how my take-home in canada would compare to the US though

I heard nobody can afford a thing in canada, salaries low and prices high, capitalist hell

[spark cobalt]

Its fairly close. Pros and cons in terms of COL and other stuff which might put Canada above the US for some, and the US above Canada for others

[spark cobalt]

US has those trends as well. Higher the COL = Higher the pay. Very unlikely to get a 6 figure job as a new grad in the middle of nowhere. But in the Bay Area it's the norm.

[sonic mica]

So you could possibly land an opportunity close to a FAANG position if you're good enough?

[spark cobalt]

That'll be true Canada or US.

[spark cobalt]

Also probably worth to note, I'm pretty sure Canada's population density is largely within HCOL metropolitan areas which may give you these sorts of statistics, while in the US people are more dispersed but if you were aiming for high pay you'd likely end up in HCOL anyways

[sonic mica]

Tbh I wouldn't care much about my pay while starting out my career, I really care about what I'd be earning 10~15 years down the line though, hopefully those 7 figure (total compensation) salaries are achievable in canada

[spark cobalt]

You can pray for enough inflation and getting massive stocks. 7 figure salaries don't go to engineers lol.

[spark cobalt]

Might as well start a business. More reasonable away to achieve this. And you can start at any time

Expecting to work up the ladder to a million pretty much never happens in 10 years, much less 30-40 lol.

I've only seen 7 figure total compensation once, and it was like 800k in stocks lmao

[sonic mica]

I'd be surprised, engineers (ones in managerial positions) are usually the highest paid single contributors in a tech company

[spark cobalt]

Pray for inflation and you'll achieve your dreams

^

[sonic mica]

I doubt it'd be easy for an immigrant to get into those, plus business fields are oversaturated

[spark cobalt]

Also based on the data we have, people's pay have reportedly decreased this past year than increase

[sonic mica]

And engineers usually make more money than business peeps at a tech company

[spark cobalt]

There's business peeps and then there's business peeps

Everyone doing SWE = Everyone paid less

And well, CS rn just happens to be one of the most competitive curriculums in US rn. Quite literally plethora of kids trying to do CS that can't

[sonic mica]

When does it realistically happen?

[spark cobalt]

7 figures? Never. I didn't think you were talking realistically to begin with

[sonic mica]

Again, I doubt it'd be easy for an immigrant to get hired as an investment banker, best bet would be doing CS, MBA, then asking to switch to the business department in the company

[spark cobalt]

Lol what

There's business peeps and there's business peeps. One gets paid a lot more than the other, and engineers happen to be a huge chunk of the ones that get paid nicely

I think the number I saw was 40% of business owners were engineers?

Growth across the board is happening through tech.

Heard this from one of my friends at Micron. They fired people that's been there since literally the start and apparently based on their growth chart, many speculate that they were fired cuz they were getting paid way too much lol

50 years at one company doesn't sound fun

I'd probably just hop between startups and have fun

Not super stoked to have to deal with corporate and this ladder bs.

Big companies for retirement

It's much more fun ime.

[sonic mica]

Is it because it's hard to keep up with the workload or because you get laid off?

[spark cobalt]

Because it's boring

People switch jobs to try something new, increase pay, maybe workload is involved but there's lots of reasons to job hop

At least principle I'm following is if I'm not learning anything new at current company, time to find a new one

What's pip

[sonic mica]

Tbf, I want career stability, I was told insurance companies are a good bet, but they don't seem to give much room to climb the ladder

[spark cobalt]

In tech climbing the ladder happens most efficiently by going to a different company

Oh my company started doing Lattice. Having 1:1 with manager next week

[near ocean]

Why would you be put on PIP, just be better

[spark cobalt]

I don't think anyones gonna do Lattice seriously

[sonic mica]

I still have no idea what's the realistic salary range for an engineer with ten years of experience (in Canada), seems like levels.fyi overestimates compensation

[spark cobalt]

Well I know I'm not getting fired, my manager called me today asking when I'm going on vacation cuz he wanted me around when one of my teammates are on vacation. So I'm chilling

[spark cobalt]

Seems like you're aiming for those numbers though, no?

[sonic mica]

I am, I am a bag chaser ig

[spark cobalt]

Levels definitely has a bias for big tech, which then comes with what you're seeing

[smoky quest]

and they may mix the total stock grant with the annualized value

[spark cobalt]

Roblox guy moment

[smoky quest]

plus there is option vs stock as well

[spark cobalt]

Do it then

[sonic mica]

Either way, canada's averages for senior devs don't look so good, it's like $110k total comp?

No particular company, levels.fyi's national average

[spark cobalt]

[sonic mica]

I doubt people post compensation to indeed, mostly just base salary

[spark cobalt]

Well, my anecdata for Canada is small, but very very close to the US. I think one makes like 400k at Google or something?

If you're making good money, free healthcare sucks

Idk FAANG ladder too well, dunno

I'm sure Staff gets paid at least 350k in Toronto for FAANG. I'd be surprised if they don't.

You can also be those course creators reinforcing tutorial hell and making 100$ per person

Those people make courses and never worked in tech before. I wouldn't be surprised if the top performers made 7 figures

I mean you add Udemy, Coursera then YouTube and they all feed into each other and roll like a snowball

[sonic mica]

These are all side hustles, I am talking about the base career

[sonic mica]

I hope to be able to bootstrap my own business eventually, can't do that if I have not much savings and mortgage to pay

[spark cobalt]

Damn buying a house early

I'm probably waiting till I have kids lol to get a house, not anytime soon.

I thought Amazon did >200k TC

At least that's the highest I've heard

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't wait for kids. Real estate is pretty important in the USA for investment

[spark cobalt]

I'm not gonna be in the US during that time 😔

Oh what is it

God damn

[smoky quest]

that's because they don't give equity

[frosty radish]

Hi. Are there somewhere gathered questions for intern job interview and then coding?

[smoky quest]

most tech companies will provide salary + equity. Netflix only provides salary

[spark cobalt]

Be fluid with Easy and Mediums on Leetcode and you'll be fine.

[smoky quest]

they do have a plan for employees to buy some options at a discount though

[spark cobalt]

There's lists like Blind 75 or something, Neetcode has his own 150. Idk what other lists there are.

I'd recommend going through EPI and Grokk though before just grinding out Leetcode

Cash is dead, equity is based

[smoky quest]

depends on when you join the company and how much growth you believe in it

[spark cobalt]

It's gonna be fun watching what happens to the USD over the next decade (decades is generous)

[smoky quest]

their value is pretty high for their current situation and prospect. So I would rather be cash heavy for netflix.
As a comparison, 10 years ago, their stock was at ~27 and it peaked at 800.

Imagine they gave you 100k$ worth of stock when it was 27$/share...

[spark cobalt]

I personally don't see the Netflix vision because I've 123movied everything.

[smoky quest]

now imagine you joined in october 2021 when it was >600$/share (now it's less than half)

so yeah, don't join just a random company. Make sure you have an investment thesis since you are gonna spend the next few years there. So you want your equity to be worth but also your career growth

And if the stock tank, it also means a lot of engineers will also change jobs, which won't necessarily be helping the company improve

what about it?

yeah, it's a great place to work too. Some teams are very chill while others have a higher turn over

[frosty radish]

There are many of them

[smoky quest]

you shouldn't memorize them

[frosty radish]

but I should do them, right?

[smoky quest]

you should do enough of them that you are comfortable

and you should do them after reviewing DSA

[frosty radish]

Mhmm... well... What about 'questions', not coding part?

[spark cobalt]

That's generally role specific and related to whatever you advertise your knowledge in on your resume for technical short answers

[frosty radish]

It's just an intern ;s

but i am not CS graduate so would prefer to rehearse

[spark cobalt]

OS being operating systems?

What crackhead company opts OS for behavioral

Oh

[frosty radish]

the company is named Capgemini

Nope

[spark cobalt]

Also it's not uncommon where companies will ask you to demo your projects, explain them, run through your development process, etc.

[frosty radish]

Okey, will take a look at that

I have found some questions/exercises. Find them simple. But would like to check myself

[pastel grotto]

who masters splunk business around here

[graceful perch]

L chat

[potent stratus]

👋 I'm speaking to a local high school coding group in a few days and was wondering if anyone in here had things they wish they'd known in high school before getting into tech careers! two of the points I'm covering are that it's okay to not have a website dedicated to your passion projects, you can still get a job, but that those passion projects might get you closer to your dream job (exploring what you're interested in, being able to talk about it, etc.) and that a lot of jobs, especially nowadays, have a balance between flexibility and pay where generally more flexibility comes with less pay (working from home, unlimited PTO, etc.)

[summer roost]

There's far more coding jobs out there than they know anything about. I've noticed that kids always seem to say that they're interested in extremely visible things - game dev, AI/ML, web development, etc. Those things make up a tiny fraction of all coding jobs, but because they're so visible, people latch on to the idea of them. So, I'd say that, at their level, the things to hammer home are that they'll have far more opportunities in life with a degree, and that they should be learning about as many different things as possible to figure out what they like and don't like.

[deep crescent]

Hello, have a good day guys

[sleek egret]

that seems far too reasonable a position for kids

[summer roost]

What do you mean?

[sleek egret]

kids want to be told that each one of them is awesome. that they should follow their dreams and ignore people who tell them to settle for the safe path. that they should think for themselves and do what they enjoy in life. to accept nothing but the best and that they deserve it!

[summer roost]

That seems fairly cynical. Besides, that sounds like the type of messaging that elementary school students get, not high school. By their age, they're aware that they have different talents, aptitudes, and skills, and the prospect of entering the real world is looming large.

[sleek egret]

HS must be a disappointing time

[summer roost]

Nowhere near as bad as middle school, as I recall...

[sleek egret]

I don't really remember middle school

[potent stratus]

I mean I think there's some truth to the overlap of those - that you have skills that are unique to you, and you should do whatever you want with them

[summer roost]

Totally.

[sleek egret]

well, you can do what you want with them. should you though? well, that depends on your own wisdom and awareness of options available to you.

[glass quiver]

Can i make a terminal with raspberry pi?

[potent stratus]

and also provided that the skills are being used for responsible legal things of course 😹

[sleek egret]

what if doing crimes is best for you?

[summer roost]

You seem to be saying that, no matter what advice someone gives, kids will just ignore it and do whatever they wanted to anyway. That seems like a defeatist attitude to me, and I don't agree. Perhaps some advice will fall on deaf ears, but that doesn't mean it's not worth attempting to guide them. If your view was right, there'd be no point to education at all.

[sleek egret]

the point of education is to force kids to learn things they don't want to learn

[summer roost]

No, it's to prepare them for the responsibilities of life

[sleek egret]

same difference

either way, I need some coffee... bbiab

[deft herald]

You said that last night, lol

[hearty island]

this is bad. this is really bad. this is fucking terrible.

so my work is requiring all the certificates of the tpa’s licensing in all 50 states. the only problem is that our lawyer’s office is CLOSED today for good friday so i can’t call them

[summer roost]

That sounds distinctly above your pay grade

[hearty island]

i know but they’re relying on me to do it and it was my project. the lawyers never sent me certs, they only sent me confirmations of the renewals 😅

i just found out about it today that it was holding up a major chunk of our self funded business

i find it funny that the guy who’s asking for this shit has been unresponsive to my emails for weeks

[summer roost]

There is absolutely no time when an intern should be on the critical path for anything. Someone fucked up, but it wasn't you.

[hearty island]

yeah it’s a huge oversight

[summer roost]

And one that it's definitely not your responsibility to fix alone, especially not on a holiday.

[hearty island]

this is exactly what happens when you put an intern on a huge internal project instead of an experienced project manager with an intern to help

the experienced project manager left near the start of my internship, leaving me to take care of this

[potent stratus]

I mean, you have to report to someone, right?

[hearty island]

that someone’s on vacation

[potent stratus]

and what about who they report to?

[hearty island]

the president who i’m messaging now

[true harness]

this is a great behavioral interview answer

[hearty island]

he said to try to attach confirmation that the states been renewed… but that’s only like 11 states

[hearty island]

“Tell me a time when you worked on a project that went wrong. What happened and how did you fix the situation?”

[true harness]

is it reasonable to ask when to expect a response by in an interview

[hearty island]

in my centene internship interview, i provided them with a deadline of when i want to hear back by

[sleek egret]

did you hear back by that deadline?

[hearty island]

i did actually. i was shocked

[true harness]

was it a reasonable deadline?

[hearty island]

i gave them a 2 week deadline. i was just surprised because fortune companies take time

[true harness]

I think my question is slightly different than setting a deadline, though

[hearty island]

i think it’s reasonable

[hearty island]

yo?

[true harness]

don't you not live in Chicago

[summer roost]

Totally reasonable to ask. Also totally reasonable for them to answer with just a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

😦

[true harness]

fair enough I guess

[hearty island]

i can relocate

i’m assuming they’ve read my resume enough to know i graduate may 2024 … 😅😅😅😅

[true harness]

what about the other one that was in California or something. was that an in person interview

[summer roost]

often, the people interviewing you won't be able to commit to any particular timeline. If you need an answer by a certain point, you can tell that to the recruiter or hiring manager you're working with, and they'll try to meet that deadline.

[hearty island]

that one i messaged back they never responded

i have zero marketing experience 😐

i’m gonna give the recruiter a call and just make sure they know when i graduate

[true harness]

I think that makes sense. if it's an HR person, they might not know how long it will take to get through all the feedback I guess

[hearty island]

is that a good idea?

[summer roost]

and if it's the interviewers, they might not have transparency into things like whether there are other candidates already in the pipeline.

[true harness]

ah, right

[hearty island]

bc i have a feeling they may have just looked at my qualifications and been like oh he’s a good fit and then forgot when i graduate

ah shit this might be a scam, i just called and i got “Caller Busy” 😐

😦

[dreamy shadow]

No, email your recruiter...

[hearty island]

just did

[regal obsidian]

Hi, Is Python great tool to learn for Backend Web Development?

[peak halo]

Yes, especially because of popular frameworks like django, flask, and fastapi.

[hearty island]

🤔🤔🤔

[true harness]

nice

[hearty island]

maybe the new résumé’s working

[buoyant seal]

works great ^_^ but not the limit.

each language has its own little benefits. Python ecosystem is rich and has rapid development.

[fluid fern]

From my experience, there isn't a standard which language x for y task

It's usually up to the tech lead to choose and you will use x lanuage for y task

Whats more important is the theory than code syntax of y task

[sleek egret]

it rarely actually matters much what toolchain you use

it's sort of like wondering which brand of truck you should use for your trucking company.

[fluid fern]

No

[pastel thunder]

on an average are Machine learning engineer paid more than SDE? What's the scenario in you country?

[sleek egret]

what do you think machine learning engineers do? is it more difficult to become one?

[buoyant seal]

i think an important question is, do you like more ML or SDE?
When u like something, u can easily learn to become professional. But can u do the same for something u dislike? 🙂
Try both things, and find out what u like more!

[neat dock]

hey guys, i have a 1 year experience in self taught python coding, i am asking where i can learn more deeply in biopython, i used datacamp to learn general python pandas and all of these

[pastel thunder]

yes, actually wanted to know about market, from experienced peep, i have a clear vision for myself.

[buoyant seal]

try both projects to do in both fields and see for yourself. Skills are seriously different for both directions ^_^

ML guy is Data scientist, which can do Math and Data engineering. more science/math oriented in its flavour.
SDE = Desktop/Mobile/Backend(or even Embedded guy) developer, which can do Software architecture and System Design. pure programming + different soft skills
At least if SDE means Software Development Engineer xD

Rumours say, this is a very useful book for ML engineer

For SDE, i can recommend Code Complete as useful starting guide to many aspects

[fluid fern]

My opinion has no basis in experience but if you are making something like a novel neural network architecture i would say it is more complex than your average SDE project
Something I do have experience on is data engineering, majority of the time as a data engineer is just fiddling with your companies data then plugging it into pre made models

[buoyant seal]

😁 to each its own. I think there is nothing more complex than SDE project in entire world. SDE projects have no max limits to their complexity growth

neural network architecture is just random garbage thrown together to me, trained on random data until good data is received. Black box magic without really seeing what is going on inside. At best u can see which layers/parts of those neurons are triggered for different stuff. Some visual representation not really giving a lot about what is going on inside

[pastel thunder]

i disagree, by a huge margin here

[fluid fern]

it's more than just throwing garbage at the wall, the only part that is the black box in the sense are the neural nets themselves the other components are extremely transparent

[buoyant seal]

to each each its own ^_^

what do you admire more. What do you value more. Go for it. If neutral networks fancy you, then they are good for you
definitely i am of SDE direction guy though, not seeing any beauty in neural network stuff

[pastel thunder]

thats just Deep learning, when it some to ML, its wider than that

[pastel thunder]

btw neurosurgeon lmao

[buoyant seal]

many startups earn less ^_^

[fluid fern]

Just be a surgeon in the end if u want money

[pastel thunder]

i was surprised

self-taught neurosurgeon

[buoyant seal]

50% median... damn.

[harsh river]

takes what? 8 years min to be a neurosurg

[pastel thunder]

i dont think salaries people go over tha

[dreamy shadow]

@delicate bane See above.

[dreamy shadow]

Imagine the taxes you pay.

[spark cobalt]

And that's just for schooling ,

[pastel thunder]

more than salary of 80% in the world, lmao, propably

[harsh river]

yeah, it's another 6 in residencies

[buoyant seal]

i would say though, at some point very quickly you get enough money though. it is only so much money can be gotten before u already have everything u wished.

I mean, what's really wished? good pension, home, family stuff, perhaps education for them
no point to chase too big salary

unless u plan also buying Luxury yachts and etc xD

[pastel thunder]

i know some doctor, that specially fly at personal requests, those probably are money printing press

neuro/part time business/ freelance sde

[spark cobalt]

Neurosurgeon get paid a lot for a reason. Not many are willing to do 14+ years of full time effort to be credentialed to be a neurosurgeon, WLB is questionable, then there's the whole mental health issue, it's silly

[spark cobalt]

If you can juggle all those 3 you're probably Dr. Strange or something

[pastel thunder]

i think someone who wants to go and spend years on neuro for money, should probably do business instead, given the same time, eventually would make business profitable, may be earlier

[harsh river]

or not

a lot of bussines fail.

[pastel thunder]

person going for neuro, should shouldn't be too average. its fuzzy

[spark cobalt]

Not everyone can focus on business full time. Rent still needs to be paid

[buoyant seal]

add here those are also hardly transferable skills between countries and different high quality equipment ^_^
i can bet proving your neurosurgeon creds in another country is nearly impossible

[harsh river]

what do you mean a person going for neuro should be too average? there aren't that many neurosurgs out there lol

[harsh river]

that depends on the country you're transferring from and to, but even then, they should have the skills to adapt easily

[pastel thunder]

should not*, hehe

[near ocean]

Business Administration is a waste of a degree, possibly controversial

Back home people go into business for 2 reasons:

1. Their family owns a business and they will take it over some day
2. They cant get into any other degree course

[dreamy spade]

I’m very eager to know what it’s like to work in tech. I remember when I worked in warehouses, I was always on the go, moving and lifting boxes for 7 hours a day and 5 days a week so I’m curious on what’s it like writing code 7 hours a day.

[true harness]

devs don't write code 7 hours a day

[fluid fern]

Pipeline broke, guy whos in charge works at the other side of the globe, time to sleep and spin in my chair or work on the other project that im in charge of

And then there are days where you work for 12 hours because deadline

[hearty island]

yay the recruiter is legit

[buoyant seal]

Time flies, shrugs.
As public static void correctly mentioned, it is actually not often happens 7 hours coding per day (sometimes it happens though, some previous week was like that)

Usually more than half of time spent, digging documentation, seeking necessary information, reading other people code

Then it is coding, testing, refactoring times

Then the cycle repeats.

I also have in my schedule solving small problems other devs have sometimes

Also in addition I have my self studies in free time. Read yet another book, advance yet another pet project.

[dreamy spade]

You read books on the job?

[buoyant seal]

In free time outside of job. During job I read books only if task is given explicitly the one I can complete by reading book only ^_^

[dreamy spade]

Nice

[fluid fern]

Over here books are research papers

[buoyant seal]

Being a developer is a lifestyle for me I guess
At least for N (where N from {{current years of experience + 2}} to infinity) first years of career

[spark cobalt]

Apparently my reporting manager changed to the person I've been reporting to to begin with.

[spark cobalt]

I code like 30-40% of the time. Unless I'm crammed like right now I'm like 200% coding

16 hour work days

Time to go back to work

[vapid jay]

16hrs everyday damn

[sleek egret]

is that a lot? back in my day, we worked 36 hours days, and liked it!

[true harness]

how come you have the leaf again

[hearty island]

i'm really hoping my recruiter knows when i graduate

[true harness]

why wasn't that in the email you sent

[hearty island]

which email? the one the recruiter sent me?

[sleek egret]

waffle house is da bomb, brah

they're open 72 hours a day, 7200 days a year!

[vapid jay]

Uh, I just started a job two weeks ago and I only have experience in Python. It’s a job to make visualizations for a planetarium. The thing is that they use way more languages (which I don’t know). My boss is awesome but I think I can’t do the job 😭 he keeps complimenting me but it feels like I can’t do anything without his help

I don’t wanna quit because I moved across the US for the job, but I don’t wanna disappoint him. Any thoughts?

[smoky quest]

Do you have a hard time learning more languages?

Do you have to know all these languages from the get go?

[vapid jay]

A little bit. It’s just that the software they use for the planetarium has endless possibilities and I’m trying to figure it out. I kinda do have to know other languages because he set a deadline for me to finish a project in one month

But he knew I only knew Python :/

[smoky quest]

so that means they are okay with you taking some time to learn. It also means they believe you can do it.

In general it takes a few months for someone to fully ramp up anyway

[vapid jay]

Im so disappointed with myself because he keeps telling everyone that I’ll make the coolest visualizations for the planetarium, but men, I never promised so much like that. He knows where my skills are

[vapid jay]

Oh ok, so it’s normal then? I never worked in a company like that before so I don’t know what’s expected of programmers

[smoky quest]

it's normal

[smoky quest]

The rule of thumb is it takes 6 months for an engineer to be fully ramped up.

You should ask your manager for 30-60-90 days plan so that the expectations are aligned and you know what's expected of you

[vapid jay]

Ok that’s a good idea, so then I know his expectations and let him know where I am at.

[smoky quest]

you may want to read https://www.amazon.com/Managers-Path-Leaders-Navigating-Growth/dp/1491973897. It shows the different roles and expectations at all the levels, from the intern to the cto

[smoky quest]

your manager should also have weekly 1-1 with you

[vapid jay]

Thanks I’ll check that out

[wispy oriole]

I am sure that currently, the field in highest demand in python are 🤖AIs

[peak halo]

while Python is the most popular language for AI development, I don't think it follows that AI is the field in highest demand in Python. because AI positions are less frequent than, say, web development positions.

[wispy oriole]

I thought that because of ChatGPT

[peak halo]

what about ChatGPT?

[wispy oriole]

Popularity

[peak halo]

the company that created ChatGPT only has 375 employees. and not all of those employees are technical. and I would venture that most of their technical staff weren't involved in ChatGPT.

[wispy oriole]

Okay i was wrong

[harsh river]

it's more of a perceived popularity thing than actual popularity

[wispy oriole]

Can i discuss about the structure of a company that i might create?

[peak halo]

Sure.

[wispy oriole]

Okay, have you ever heard of worker cooperatives?

[peak halo]

No

[wispy oriole]

It's a buisness owned democratically by the workers

Like everyone worker gets a voice on how the buisness is run

[spark cobalt]

Why do you value voices of people who have no idea about how to run businesses

[wispy oriole]

In coops, the workers gets to vote and cooperate on stuff

[harsh river]

what if the cooperative leads down the company to an untenable situation, what happens then?

[spark cobalt]

One of the single flaws of democracy throughout history: the general public are generally uneducated

[harsh river]

||very apt description of wilder, which is why wilder v2 is better||

[spark cobalt]

What makes you think they'll vote for the company's benefit and not their own?

[wispy oriole]

Well we can just educate and inform the workers

[spark cobalt]

Educate them with what? Your idea of how to build a good company?

[wispy oriole]

I meant the workers vote and gets a voice on the management of the buisness
it's to dignify human work, allow workers' democratic self-management, and not turn them into wage slaves

[spark cobalt]

Good luck with that 🙂

[ivory sluice]

ive only seen small grocery co-ops. have you seen something more?

[wispy oriole]

I wish to see software and programming ones
Edit: Actually we do have these
Along with housing coops and banking coops

[spark cobalt]

Training people to have the same judgement that a very small number of people (successful CEOs) have sounds like a huge money drain with questionable results.

[wispy oriole]

In a coop, your coders tend to be more productive as they proudly own (in a sense) their work and it fosters a inclusive and helping environment, unlike a competitive one

[spark cobalt]

If that's true, then why don't all the Fortune 1000 companies do it?