career-advice

[forest jungle]

I keep getting emails from some company asking me to finish filling out my application to them.

... They wanted eight (I can't make this up, eight) recommendation letters.

[true harness]

i love workday for that. i just autofill everything and it's all filled in. ICIMS doesn't let you autofill at all, and it's miserable

[spark cobalt]

No, like the button tab. It allows you to fill an entire form without pressing your mouse button, which is the biggest slowdown in any kind of typing anything.

[dreamy shadow]

Workday is a different log in for every mf company

[coral vine]

sounds like a high responsibility role

[true harness]

yeah, but it's able to trick microsoft edge into thinking it's the same, so i just autofill my email and pass even in the create new account menu

[spark cobalt]

150 WPM goes hard when applying to jobs

[dreamy shadow]

Oh, you just mean tabbing to the next fillbox. That's already kinda default for me.

[forest jungle]

It was, you can't just let anyone apply to a Junior Software Associate position

[true harness]

sounds like a dumb company, more like. who requires recommendation letters for any tech job lmao

[spark cobalt]

Either way, could've like applied to 8000 or something if I looked into ways to automate.

But oh well, company I landed was really good for me except they threw away my food yesterday

[delicate bane]

you could give a talk at a conference about this process. would be cool

[coral vine]

if you documented your process of applying to 4k jobs, it would make a pretty cool story to publish since you are only a teen o.o people love those peculiar kinds of stories xD it can get big on medium. did you store your 4k jobs in a spreadsheet and analyze the data or something o.o

[spark cobalt]

I could get those numbers into a spreadsheet, since many of them are logged in the job portal I used.

Hard to gather all the ones I've done at an individual company's website.

[coral vine]

do it while you are still a teen too

[spark cobalt]

The most I did was just log how many jobs I applied to a day to keep track of overall number. This way I can assess what resume gathered what retention.

[true harness]

i track all my applications on notion

[delicate bane]

nah. its fine to do it whenever you like. you can put those numbers on a slide for the talk if you want

[spark cobalt]

Idt it's something worth talking about. I just approached it as a science, then kept doing different testcases with hundreds of trials and just followed which attributes had more success than others.

Also just my resume as a whole is super non-traditional, hard to follow or extract use for people.

[true harness]

leak it 👀

[delicate bane]

up to you. i think it would make for an interesting and inspiring story. could help up your network if you decide to go through with the talk.

[spark cobalt]

Maybe down the line, I'd like to have results to show for myself as well. I don't really like the whole notion of pushing self-taught down, however I don't at the same time want to endorse the idea of self taught which ultimately only promotes bootcamps, these shitty career people on Youtube, certificate people, etc.

[true harness]

you might turn into one of them

[spark cobalt]

Yeah that too

[smoky quest]

or start your own youtube account

[spark cobalt]

Nah, I have my own side projects and my own things I'm doing. Doing a seminar this Friday which is gonna be super fun.

I just don't like the way Youtube does things. You either sell a false dream or do heavy clickbait to get your video anywhere and it's just not it. It almost feels like you have to lie, to be successful.

[coral vine]

it wont endorse it if at the end, you say what you learned is "degree is way to go"

[spark cobalt]

Well no, I had a specific reason to why I didn't do a degree. I would like to expose the realities of self taught, and try to give people a more complete picture other than "yeah just build x y and z projects and have your resume look like this and you're fine"

But that's something I think needs some years of experience on my part to be able to give that full picture. So something for later

I think there are good reasons to not do a degree (and personal bias, mine included).

But the general self-taught person aims at maximizing their career, in which going to do a college degree is the absolute way to go.

So there is this balance I'm trying to strike.
a.) You're likely part of Group B and should do college.
b.) For the small percentage that aren't, here's my experience.

[coral vine]

how about theprimeagen or now renamed theprimetime on youtube, he tells the truth

[spark cobalt]

I don't know of them. But from what I've seen so far, everyone has their own truths. What separates truth from reality is lack of information.

Too many of these self taught gurus on Youtube don't have the complete picture, they give you tips but don't help you fundamentally understand how to maneuver the industry without a degree and enable you to find a solution for yourself.

I was lucky because my dad used to be a manager in this industry before the .com crash.

[dreamy shadow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4voWXsu91EQ If only

[spark cobalt]

Good storyteller I like

Very entertaining

[coral vine]

theprimeagen is a netflix software engineer who streams and records on twitch/youtube. in his past, he struggled with hard drugs like meth, cocaine? if i remember properly, and his father killed himself. and he struggles with ADHD but learned to channel his disability into software engineering talent. also he often streams and programs on a yoga bouncy ball as a chair xD

[thick shadow]

Hello everyone and all my probably new friends !!! 😍
Im completely new in this world, actually i just started to study the python language hoping to enter into this dev-verse, cause im not a developer or a programer yet, and for this reason i dont have any clue what are the aplications of that im learning , and how should i start some carrer or even how to practice or test some codes and exercises.

Can anyone gimme some direction ?

Thx guys !!!

[spark cobalt]

The applications of what you're learning is everywhere. From your printers, to your OS, to your router, to your laptop, to the websites, browsers, media, desktop applications, phone, mobile apps, games, electric vehicles, AI/ML, computer vision, refrigerators, like it's endless.

!res To learn programming though, I'd pick up some book and just practice what the book is teaching you. For example, if the book is discussing for loops, try to experiment with for loops, see what is possible with them and grasping a thorough understanding of it before moving on.

There's a book in link below that this community recommends.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[spark cobalt]

In general though, the standard (and easiest) way to get into tech is through a CS degree, where they start off assuming you don't have CS knowledge at all.

[thick shadow]

awsome !
i think maybe its so big that im not understanding yet how to in fact apply the codes and logics in real products working
haha😅

great page !!!
i didnt found the book yet, but i founded a course of basics and introdution in python that i just started !
thx a lot !!!
🤩 👍

[spark cobalt]

It's the Automate The Boring Stuff with Python

[thick shadow]

Founded !!!
The book actually is on sale, but they have a free version to read online !
Dooooope !

[foggy depot]

Hey, I am sure this has been asked before, but I am really curious what the probability of me getting a job as a Python developer by the end of this year are based on the following factors:

• I have never touched Python
• I have learned a bit of Java so I am familiar with coding, just not Python.
• I am following this course..; https://www.udemy.com/course/100-days-of-code/

[smoky quest]

any CS experience? What's your education level? How much time are you going to spend on it?

That said, chances are between 0 and 1

[foggy depot]

Education level? Finished College, never went to Uni.

Time spent on it? About 2h per day.

CS experience? None

[smoky quest]

can you expand on the college vs uni thing?

[foggy depot]

Wdym? I just finished College, but never went to University. This will be my first time touching a programming language (other than the 6 months of Java learning I had online)

[smoky quest]

what degree did you get in college?

[foggy depot]

Not how it works in Ireland

You get degrees in Universities in Ireland, not College

[smoky quest]

yeah, that's what I ask. Different countries use different names.

Overall, I would recommend you to get a CS degree as it is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation.
Without it, it's gonna be like doing life in extreme hardcore more and while you may eventually get a job, that will definitely not be the same kind with the same responsibilities, career opportunities and pay.

[foggy depot]

CS being Computer Science, right?

How long would that take me to learn?

[smoky quest]

indeed. Assuming a LMD, model, that's at least 3 years

[foggy depot]

Absolutely no chance I can spend 3 years on a course.

I need a job as a programmer within the next year.

[smoky quest]

That's entirely up to you. But don't expect the same pay as someone who does spend 3 years on a course

[foggy depot]

I don’t, that wasn’t my question to begin with.

[smoky quest]

For most people asking that question of finding a job, it is.
Otherwise, yes, indeed, you could find a job.

[foggy depot]

That is all I needed, thank you. I know people with degrees will definitely get better and higher paying jobs but that is just something I dont have time to learn right now.

[smoky quest]

sure. No problem. I am just making sure you are aware of the trade offs. The rest is up to you. Good luck!

[foggy depot]

Time is of the essence for me and I don’t have a lot of it left

[smoky quest]

to be honest, that's a bad calculation. That could be summed up to penny wise, pound foolish

[foggy depot]

What?

[smoky quest]

it's a british idiom: https://writingexplained.org/idiom-dictionary/penny-wise-pound-foolish

[foggy depot]

Okay..? Not sure what you are trying to imply by that, but my point stands. My personal life is a huge factor and I don’t have more than a years time left to land a job like this.

[delicate bane]

you can also just get a normal job in the meantime while trying to learn. its not ideal but you also arent going the uni route so this is one option while working on your skills.

[smoky quest]

The point is you are trading a tiny income now and a lot of effort to get a job for a much easier life with a much larger income and opportunities

[foggy depot]

Im aware. I don’t have another choice because I don’t have 3 years to learn CS.

I have a years time at best.

[smoky quest]

I would suggest to at least explore ways to make it happen, be it with part time jobs or other help from the government

You may also want to explore non-CS jobs like trade jobs as they do not require as much training and education

[foggy depot]

I already work a trade job and it is beyond dogshit. I dont want to work as a tradesman because it’s a terrible life to lead. Especially with the trade I am in.

[smoky quest]

that will probably continue without proper education. The rate of self taught people failing to get in the industry is very high

[foggy depot]

I do have a proper education..?

[smoky quest]

Like a CS degree?

[knotty drum]

Why do you have a year, if you dont mind me asking

Do you guys know good online CS degrees?

[foggy depot]

A degree is a degree. An education is an education. I have an education. I did many subjects, some even at Higher levels than other people.

[smoky quest]

That's a non sequitur

[foggy depot]

No its not lol

[smoky quest]

How does it relate to a CS degree for a CS career? That's what employers will look for

[foggy depot]

I am not looking for a CS Degree nor did I mention it. I asked a simple question and you reply to it suggesting a three year course. I told you I dont have time to learn it because I dont have more than a year and you go off talking about earning less than people with a degree as if I didnt already know that was the case.

[knotty drum]

Will you die in 2 years or something

[smoky quest]

Right, but what matters is not what you want, but the market with its supply and demand. That CS degree and education does matter to the employers and to your competition

[foggy depot]

So the answer to my original question would be the following..;

“With the current supply and demand in the market, it would be tough to find a job without a CS degree. The competition and demand would not allow you to find work so easily.”

No? I don’t see why you need to go off and question my education, what I want, etc. I never said what I want matters. I asked a simple question, which you completely either misread or ignored.

[smoky quest]

No one reads your mind or know your situation nor country.
Some people will ask your same question coming from a math degree, some others thinking they are smarter than everyone and will get a job in 2 weeks, while some others trying to transition career past 40 years old. So having context into your situation helps us tailor the answer better.

[foggy depot]

You don’t need to know my situation or read my mind. My question was phrased well and easy to understand. I asked if I could get a job within a years time and I expected to receive an answer based on the exact parameters I listed. If I am giving you a question with 3 pieces of information, why are you digging for more external information? Its a simple question, one that was expecting a simple answer.

[smoky quest]

That's very naive to expect a simple answer based on so little information. There are many more factors that come into play

[foggy depot]

Which you could have included in your original reply.

“Hello, thanks for the question. With Python learning, a lot of factors come into play such as your eduction, experience, etc. Based on the following parameters you have listed, I can only assume you have no CS experience, and are just about to start learning Python from the course you linked. With that information, I can only imagine that you etc etc.”

It’s not hard.

[pine sleet]

Not hard to give incorrect information, maybe. The more information one has the better judgement and recommendation one can make.

[smoky quest]

lol no, it is hard. First I am not google, and second there are more than a few factors.
Take for instance the 3 situations I listed in my last before message. They could all have asked your first question and yet would have ended with a different recommendation.

[pine sleet]

Had they given you an answer purely off what you have provided us without digging for more context - you would have ended up with a recommendation that does not reflect your unique situation

[foggy depot]

I mean what I provided is what I was expecting an answer based on.

[pine sleet]

Well. Expectations are not always reality, are they? With more information recursive_error is able to give you a more relevant suggestion to your situation

[smoky quest]

That's the whole point, that's not how things work if you want a good answer

[pine sleet]

It's helpful to keep an open mind about such things.

[foggy depot]

I specifically asked in my question to base their answer off of the following parameters I listed.

[smoky quest]

In that case, my answer would have been: not enough data

[foggy depot]

Would have preferred you say that

[pine sleet]

Well, they did give you an answer. Between 0 and 1.

[spark cobalt]

Having a CS degree is black or white. What do you want us to assume?

[foggy depot]

I’m not sure why you lot keep mentioning CS degrees. I specifically asked about becoming a Python developer. Idgaf about CS. Its a simple question.

[pine sleet]

That said, chances are between 0 and 1
You have your answer, quick and simple. Based solely off the parameters you have listed.

[spark cobalt]

Well the answer is no from what I gather.

[smoky quest]

that's just incredibly inefficient though. I would have most likely bailed out as well

[spark cobalt]

You should read the pins, all of them. There's couple of misconceptions in this message alone that pins would clear up for you.

[spark cobalt]

It just so happens employers are looking for CS degrees.

[foggy depot]

Thats all I wanted to hear from the start.

“No. Employers want people with CS degrees.”

Thats it.

[spark cobalt]

Why would an employer take a less relevant degree when there's hundreds of thousands of CS grads looking for jobs in the job market?

Which is the main premise of why we ask whether you have a CS degree or not.

[foggy depot]

I specified in my question the parameters I want used. If I had a CS Degree, I would have included that in the list of parameters

[pine sleet]

Was that not what was being conveyed from the start, as well?

[smoky quest]

Also, while I don't really care, some others may. So fyi, you may want to be a bit more flexible with the people trying to help you online. They aren't paid for this nor do they necessarily would put up with that type of reactions

[pine sleet]

The recommendation for a CS degree starts as early as here in the conversation

[spark cobalt]

It would've been more appropriate to question why we ask abt a CS degree rather than being confrontational about it if you don't understand why we ask.

[foggy depot]

I didnt say it wasnt mentioned. My whole question was based on specific parameters. My question could have easily been answered with “As employers currently want CS graduates in the market and you dont have a CS degree, it would be very unlikely you find work.”

[smoky quest]

that answer would have been wrong in some cases

[foggy depot]

Such as?

[smoky quest]

I am not gonna re-do the conversation. Scroll up

[pine sleet]

The folks here have helped with similar issues in the past. Many of them have first hand experience in the industry. Some with decades under their belt. There's a reason they ask certain questions. Helps to keep an open mind and ask if you're unsure, as to why they are asking for certain things.

[foggy depot]

Im not questioning their experience.

[spark cobalt]

Are there any other questions you had?

[foggy depot]

Nope.

[spark cobalt]

Sweet. Good luck

[summer roost]

Your original question was about "the probability of me getting a job as a Python developer by the end of the year", and then you got offended when people asked clarifying questions about you and your experience. So you asked about specifically you, and then balked at giving clarifications about you.

The answer to the question would have been different if, for example, you had a PhD in Physics.

Or even a bachelor's degree in mathematics, for that matter.

[fleet delta]

Why's this fella so obnoxious and rude to people tryna give them advice

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't overthink it and try instead to empathize.
They seem to be in a difficult situation with a lot of unknowns. That could be quite stressful and they may not necessarily understand why people are asking so many questions (you don' t know what you don't know).

[summer roost]

I'll add that calling someone obnoxious and rude after the conversation has already ended is pretty rude all on its own.

[fleet delta]

I disagree, dude seems oblivious of how he's coming across

I'm doing him a favour in a harsher than normal way by pointing it out

[summer roost]

Other people who were involved in the conversation had already pointed out that the tone in the exchange was offensive. Piling on with insults after the fact is hardly constructive criticism.

[fleet delta]

Obnoxious and rude arent really insults in my opinion, just descriptive words, agree to disagree

[spark cobalt]

The point is it doesn't add to the conversation and if anything reopens the same can of worms. The first general reaction to being attacked is to retaliate, we don't need more of this.

[hazy wind]

I like money

[chrome summit]

A lot of people want shortcuts to be a programmer. It is rare to have any good job without a university degree. You can’t take a programming 101 course and then expect to get a job in it. It is very tough and odds are stacked against you. A shortcut through life does not mean the best outcome.

[errant epoch]

hello experts there is something i wanted to ask

[indigo cloak]

Hello people. I am having trouble choosing between web dev and data analysis... any thoughts?

[royal torrent]

Bro I ate a macaroni salad

[indigo cloak]

I want some

[true harness]

try them both

[indigo cloak]

Oh yea been doing some django works

[indigo cloak]

But data is also interesting because I am falling in love with statistics

[pastel thunder]

address

[indigo cloak]

Is it even possible to learn them at the same time

[true harness]

probably not

[indigo cloak]

I talked to a senior DA, told me that I should learn excel, power BI and sql first. Python comes later

[ivory sluice]

i think if you have any interest in python at all there's really no valid reason to not start learning it

those BI type tools (tableau, looker) aren't programming languages like python is, and SQL is a good tool to have eventually and will come in handy when you venture into working with databases. basic excel you probably already know and can pick up more advanced features as needed

[indigo cloak]

Well true. Doesnt matter if my job uses it or not cuz I can use it in my freetime

Then again im interested in data works that involves numpy pandas seaborn etc

Thanks..

[desert citrus]

Hello guys I'm interested in learning python !
But don't know how to start .
I have been learning and practicing basics of python .
Any thoughts what topics should I start learning next ??

[inner crag]

👋 Hey , I am new too. I will tell you something about it in dms if you agree. I would suggest you from where I am learning Python

[spark cobalt]

Do you mind sharing here for others as well 🙂

[inner crag]

Sorry sir, I saw his name as an Indian. So I was telling him about the Hindi side.

[zealous path]

!resources might be a helping point

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[dreamy shadow]

Just post an anonymized version and someone here will take a look

[still rock]

ima be a billionaire thats my carrier

lets go

[errant thicket]

hello i want a career in coding any help

[summer roost]

Are you a student or an adult? What prior work experience do you have?

[errant thicket]

a college student i work on web development atm how can i get a career fast

[summer roost]

The easiest path to a software development career is getting a degree in computer science or software engineering

[errant thicket]

wow that takes about 4 years for a degree

[summer roost]

Yes, 3 to 5 is the normal range

[errant thicket]

thanks well anyone else do you know a career for me ?

[pine sleet]

LinkedIn probably does.

[errant thicket]

ok thanks great comeback i didn’t know y’all were mean here… this should be a career discussion and help not secrets mate

[pine sleet]

Apologies if it sounded mean. My intention was to point you towards the proper venues for starting a CS career.

[errant thicket]

i see the thing is i don’t wanna wait 3-5 years like greek said i want it fast mate how can i do it

[summer roost]

That's not a comeback, and it's not mean. The way to get a job is to find someone who will hire you. The best way to maximize your chances of an employer deciding to hire you is to build an education history and experience that lets you stand out amongst the crowd of applicants.

[pine sleet]

Unless you are looking for advice rather than an actual job? I am not sure from the way you worded your question

[errant thicket]

ok i’m good at web development could we work sometimes ?

[pine sleet]

As per the channel description this channel is not for recruitment - linkedin is the right place for that

[errant thicket]

no not like that i just like helping out

[summer roost]

Like, volunteering?

[errant thicket]

yea

[summer roost]

There's plenty of open source projects that would love to have more contributors

[pine sleet]

Ah, gotcha. When you said "I want a career in coding." I figured you were looking to be recruited. Miscommunication on my part, apologies 🙂

[summer roost]

As far as getting hired to work professionally as a software dev goes, you just need to convince someone that you're the best candidate for the job. Things that will help you do that include:

1. A degree
2. Internships or prior work experience
3. Connections or relationships with people in positions to influence hiring decisions
4. A portfolio of completed projects
   In my opinion at least, those are prioritized in roughly that order.

[thorny sedge]

If you want to get a job faster (and you are serious) - do multiple things simultaneously.

1. Enroll into CS classes in your local community college
2. Start going through tutorials and building projects on the side (this will help you get ahead of your classmates, as well as build a portfolio you can put on your resume)
3. Go on meetup.com and find local programming related meetups in your area (to start building a professional network)
4. Make a resume + linkedin so you can apply to jobs and appear serious (they know you are new, but you want to appear that you are taking becoming a professional programmer serious)

Do this 60+ hours a week for 9 months to a year. This is the fastest possible route

You could also look into getting into a coding bootcamp instead of going to community college

[near ocean]

Fastest way to lose the will to live?
You dont need 60+ work weeks to do a degree

[errant thicket]

ok thanks that was some different advice

[thorny sedge]

fastest way to get a serious programming job. A full degree isn't necessary. He asked for the fastest way. The fastest way requires doing nothing but programming for a period of time. Obviously you can slow the pace, but you will stretch the timeline. It also helps if you are very smart, very personable, and a good writer (so you can interview well and be liked). Hell, if you are extra ambitious, document your progress and make blog posts/youtube videos about what you are learning.

[near ocean]

Is this from experience? All 60+h work weeks will do is burn someone out

[thorny sedge]

yes, it is not sustainable forever, but lots of people have done this (for a limited amount of time).

[errant thicket]

ok mate let’s go rn i do web development

[near ocean]

And you know this to have worked for anyone? Ideally a large percentage of people who try it

[errant thicket]

the only thing about the community college classes is the math part

[thorny sedge]

"And you know this to have worked for anyone?" - Yes
"Ideally a large percentage of people who try it" - No, most people quit.

Again, the emphasis is on optimizing for FASTEST, not easiest, most sustainable, most applicable to most people, or most enjoyable...

[summer roost]

The very nice thing about starting with community college classes and working towards a degree is that, if you don't get a job in a year, you can keep working towards the degree.

[near ocean]

My guy, the fastest would be to go beg a family member for a job, thats not the point
The point is to suggest something tried and tested with a high success rate

[errant thicket]

ok do you have any ideas ? i also here this discord keeps secret info

[thorny sedge]

This assumes you don't have that nepotism option, also step 3 could be amended to say, also, go ask literally every professional you meet for a job, so I am sort of suggesting that too

"The point is to suggest something tried and tested with a high success rate" - He asked for fastest, not this. if he had asked, "What is the most tried and tested way statistically to succeed in getting an SE job" - I would agree with you.

[summer roost]

I don't see anything wrong with AAron's answer. I see it as very much a "yes, and" to mine just above it, honestly. Each of the points AAron gave are things that contribute to one of the ways to appeal to employers that I gave in the preceding message.

[near ocean]

I think recommending 60h per week for 9 months to beginners is kind of extreme but ok

[summer roost]

the option with the highest chance of success and lowest chance of winding up managing a Wendy's is getting a degree. Other things sometimes work, but are more difficult and come with a higher chance of failure, or impose a relatively permanent handicap on your career progression.

[near ocean]

People will try this for a week or two and give up because its unsustainable for any length of time that would actually matter

[thorny sedge]

Yes that is generally part the curriculum. If the maths are the highest barrier for you, find a program where they are less high. Also at least at the community college level, most of the programming courses don't require any more math than Algebra I, and that IS generally needed to program a lot of things.

[summer roost]

that depends a lot on the individual. I know plenty of people who put in 60 hour weeks at various points in time. A full course load in college plus a part time job plus personal projects adds up to 60 really quickly.

that's generally terrible for mental health and wellbeing, but... 🤷‍♂️

[thorny sedge]

I did this for 4 years. Most of the time it was fine. There were times it was really rough. I wouldn't recommend it to everyone (or even most people) but if you are super motivated it is entirely doable.
There are people working at startups and on wall street putting in more hours than that right now. And don't even get me started on SE working for companies who have on-call schedules where things are constantly breaking...

[true harness]

you were at a community college for 4 years?

[summer roost]

the answer that you're probably not going to be happy with is that there are no shortcuts in life. The path that's most likely to lead to the destination you're choosing is the path that most people are taking to reach it. If there was a shorter path with the same payoff (factoring in amount of effort, time spent, odds of success, opportunities available later in life, etc), everyone else would be taking that path instead.

[near ocean]

Its one thing getting paid to work those hours and another thing working them voluntarily in the hopes someone looks at your projects

[thorny sedge]

Haha noo, I did that for a year (full time CS at CC, while working on building websites and simple video games through tutorials while going to meetups and networking and trying to find someone to take a chance on me despite ya know, being a first year CC student ), then I got a job (I did succeed, but it took a while, and I was pretty much doing nothing but this), at first the job was part time, but eventually I got it full time, then I worked full time and took a class or two at a time for about 4 more years (I transferred form CC to a 4 year school, a lot of state schools have very streamlined transfer programs for the local CCs) to finish the degree (ended up getting the degree paid for by my employer)

[errant thicket]

thanks seriously

[thorny sedge]

We can split this a lot of different ways... There is one big problem that needs to be overcome in the beginning, the problem is " how to become a skilled enough software engineer that people are willing to pay you to rent your skills to solve their problems when you currently have zero skill".
There are a lot of ways to go about this. The best one is entirely up to each person and depend greatly on their motivations and circumstances. Some are more difficult than others. Some are faster than others. As with software development, it all depends on what you want to optimize for 😉

From my perspective, paying $$$ (actually, going into debt) plus spending 4 whole years taking classes to get a degree before I would even start making money was entirely out of the question of things I was willing to do.
When faced with the alternative of being able to reduce the time I spent not working, and reduce the amount of money I'd need to pay by a lot, 60 hours a week was not a hard thing to be motivated to do.

[thorny sedge]

Good luck mate!

[dreamy spade]

I don’t get what this guy means when he says “pop”
https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/11yl1uv/how_does_majority_of_the_resume_you_receive_looks/jd8okqt/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3

[true harness]

they mean to make it look interesting, so it stands out

[dreamy spade]

Unique resume building advice I read here.

[thorny sedge]

GPT chat is really useful. That is probably good advice.

[true harness]

ehhhhh. it can be useful, but tread carefully

[summer roost]

one pretty major risk to using ChatGPT for something like this is that it is stylistically very recognizable, and there's a pretty reasonable chance that whoever reads the text you had it generate immediately suspects that it was written by ChatGPT.

[true harness]

in small doses, though, it's difficult. you only get the chatgpt vibes from long segments, where there are global inconsistencies

[deft herald]

I would probably do something like have it rewrite the whole thing, then pick-and-choose some particular phrasing or whatever to use in your real resume

[summer roost]

I'm not really talking about inconsistencies, but rather of phrasing and word choice and linguistic fingerprint. In the same way as you can probably guess whether a message in this channel was sent by me or recursive after reading enough of both of our writing, you can pretty easily pick out ChatGPT's style - at least on longer paragraphs.

Using it for inspiration and then restating points in your own words seems fair enough, though

[true harness]

yeah. my point was more that if you're only writing one or two bullet points, it might be difficult to detect, especially if your other ones are similar. probably if you're writing a summary of sometime it would be obvious. though I guess that's kind of a tautology, lol. if it's similar then it's difficult

[summer roost]

as far as "inconsistencies" go, you'd better be checking everything it generates to make sure it's actually truthful. Using it to help you write something that sounds like resume-ese sounds like a reasonable idea, but letting it just make up facts about you would definitely not be

[true harness]

yeah i think getting it to "action word"-ize bullet points is probably not a bad idea. maybe i'll try it and see if people can tell the difference 🤔

[copper river]

Hey, see my code:

so funny

[still condor]

If you have a Python question, you are not in the right place. Please see #❓｜how-to-get-help and make a help channel.

[copper river]

oh, sorry bro

im brasilian, some words id understand

I lost my honor, I ask my humble forgiveness

😫

[still condor]

no worries, people use the wrong channels all the time 🙂
just make sure to read the channel name and the topic at the top, and maybe the pins if you don't quite get it

[knotty drum]

fun memes

[copper river]

it's a game of luck, if you land on number 1, you've just destroyed your computer, lots of fun! 🤪

[still condor]

Anyway... speaking of #career-advice

[hearty island]

damn after my interview got delayed and i told them that time wouldn’t work for me they still haven’t gotten back to me

now idk if they forgot about me

[still condor]

How does one go about applying to a job where they have little or no experience with the "requried" tech stack?

(I know it is lacking in taste a bit on this server... but I'm trying to escape the Python jail)

Like, how do I communicate well that I'm not familiar with their technologies a lot, but maybe I know something similar, and I'd be eager to learn.

[true harness]

that's probably obvious based on your resume

[buoyant seal]

Bwhaha, I try the same

I will probably just obfuscate later resume that Python was primarily used during all this time

With having pet projects in other languages I think it should work out

I mean it is not like i make a big switch? From one backend language to another one

[vapid jay]

What's a good job that ChatGPT won't take?

[raw bramble]

Hello Python programmers! I need someone to convert a Python script to Android.

The project consists of using the SpeechRecognition library to constantly capture the user's voice input through the microphone, transcribe the speech using Google Speech Recognition, send this transcription to the GPT-3 API and receive a text response that will be read aloud to the user using the pyttsx3 library.

I would like to perform this same operation on an Android device. How can I adapt this code so that the user's voice input remains constantly on in an Android environment?

Any help will be greatly appreciated!

Thank you in advance.

[smoky quest]

Hi! We don't do any recruiting on this server

[coral vine]

your mom

[vapid jay]

I don't need a mom anymore.

[peak halo]

Please don't make useless troll comments, especially in discussion channels.

[peak halo]

ChatGPT is a long way away from eliminating entire programming-related occupations, so it's not worth taking into account.

[still condor]

tbh I'm not sure what job it can replace

[spark cobalt]

Probably a lot of mundane tech work like data entry. It also over the years been replacing tech support slowly

[unborn bridge]

It should put all of those current and terrible chat support bots out of jobs

[spark cobalt]

As it get better, the more tech support people it replaces

[peak halo]

I feel like those bots must be a startup product where they just feed all the text on a company's website into a shit-tier automated question-answer system, and call it good. because they're beyond useless the moment your question relates to your specific circumstances.

[vapid jay]

I've always wanted to get into AI but I feel like it advances way too quick for me to have any impact in the field.

[unborn bridge]

Well, it's not advancing too quickly for the people currently in the field, and you're just as capable as they are if you are determined to learn

[sleek egret]

are you though?

[true harness]

because they have years of schooling and experience. if you're new to the field, you don't

[sleek egret]

if you're young, you could. imagine someone in my position

[unborn bridge]

schooling and experience, as in learning? that's kind of what I meant

[sleek egret]

is everyone equally capable though?

[true harness]

yes, they have it already. if you're new to the field, you don't have it already

[sleek egret]

if you're young you have plenty of time to catch up though. and then even more time to stay on top of things.

[true harness]

certainly. it's just unrealistic to believe you can do that easily by just being determined. all that schooling and experience is not easy to come by

[unborn bridge]

You and I think very differently about the world and the people in it.

[coral vine]

sorry, i meant to say that chatGPT can't take over jobs that require that emotional aspect. For instance, jobs that require telling families that a loved one has passed. That unconditional support type aspect or things like ethics, where a robot could cut down lots of trees. I think a human has to make those empathetic kinds of decisions. Like in the movie WALL-E!

again, apologies! I hear you loud and clear. I will refrain from making similar kinds of remarks in the future. I don't want to get banned. it was a bit trolly.

[sleek egret]

have you used chatGPT? it can write emotionally if you ask it to.

[coral vine]

but using chatGPT as a therapist doesnt "feel" the same as having actual human connection with another person therapist

[true harness]

to echo the common sentiment, "not yet"

[sleek egret]

that seems a bit like moving the goalpost, lol

GOOOAAAALLLLLLL!!!!!

[coral vine]

but lots of good jobs require that empathy that chatgpt will never have

[sleek egret]

who's better messi or ronaldo? and will an AI ever beat them?

[true harness]

anyways. my point isn't to say that you shouldn't learn AI. the basics are not changing

[sleek egret]

sure, and most people fail horribly at those jobs too

AI may never have empathy but I'll bet dollars to donuts they'll soon be able to fake it better than most people can.

[coral vine]

but in the rare occasions that someone is good at those jobs, it makes a big difference and helps us evolve

[sleek egret]

might help that person evolve, but not "us"

[true harness]

there's always the threat to the less capable in those professions. it's like SWE. chat gpt will not replace competent devs

[sleek egret]

heh, it's pretty clear from hanging in #python-discussion that a large fraction of devs don't even know what question to ask

[true harness]

the server skews more towards beginner devs, though. there are far less professionals, according to the survey

[sleek egret]

arguing with facts and data is unfair

[coral vine]

"us" is that person too. and we need empathy to connect together to evolve.

without empathy, what happens in the long run? it's like in the movie wall-e. it may seem unimmportant or frugal but i think its the most important. like teachers in school help develop you with empathy

[sleek egret]

not for me. I mostly learned to distrust and disdain authority.

[coral vine]

a robot can be a teacher but it cant learn empathy or trick us into choosing that robot teacher over a human teacher

[sleek egret]

oh come on. of course it can

[coral vine]

then why am i not yet addicted to chat gpt every day? why do i still rather talk to actual people on the internet? who know less than chat gpt

[unborn bridge]

because you're an individual with particular tastes

[sleek egret]

I don't know about you, but I chat online mostly for the entertainment value

[smoky quest]

Coming soon in a chatbot near you: https://dl.acm.org/action/doSearch?AllField=artificial+empathy

[coral vine]

which chatgpt cant provide

[true harness]

entertainment is like the easiest thing to provide on the internet

[spark cobalt]

There was a chat bot that was like an anime girl on the Google Play Store. That was super fucking fun for me. That was 6+ years ago.

[sleek egret]

have you used chatgpt? dude, that thing can be hillarious

[true harness]

was it megumin. i think i had that

[spark cobalt]

You could make them roleplay doing the most heinous crimes, mine locked children in basements and killed them

[sleek egret]

speaking of comedy bots though, I recall a guy who wrote a bot that would be in two channels and essentially ape what someone said in another channel, but change key words to opposite...

like "yes" to "no". "boy" to "girl". "hate" to "love". "fuck you" to "I want you". etc. it was hillarious.

so usually you'd have two people chatting with each other convinced the other one was the opposite sex and into them.

[coral vine]

well the reason why i dont use chatgpt every single day is the same aspect for which good jobs it will never be able to overtake. there's just a missing aspect of at the end of the day, i know it is just a bot. which feels empty. so it can never take over a job that requires "human connection". its like pheromones or something. a bot wont have it and lots of good jobs need it.

[true harness]

that's not very concrete

[smoky quest]

you are describing the turing test

[sleek egret]

I think you're looking at chatgpt too narrowly. you can ask it to write short stories, poetry, songs, etc. in various styles.

[coral vine]

entertainment isnt much. i mean at the end of the day, everyone has 1000 video games but no one plays 95% of it. not much value

[sleek egret]

um, not sure what your point is there

[peak halo]

seems like a non-sequitur. people have 1000 games because of bundles and steam sales. not because video games aren't enjoyable in general.

[sleek egret]

something like 2/3 of our economy is essentially "entertainment" if you are willing to be expansive in the definition (so that things like fashion and vacations and fun foods are included)

the point of building a wealthy society is so that there is plenty of excess for frivolity

[coral vine]

each product these days provides so much high quality value for essentially free. it ends up being worth not much if people fall into analysis paralysis. if we choose everything, we lose everything.

chatgpt cant take over good jobs like human development because it just offers lots of ideas but things like development or evolution, it cant make those decisive decisions over a super long period of time. it cant take you down a path like a doctor can from healthy patient -> patient has passed away.

[peak halo]

it sounds like you've been thinking about this a lot. but it's not really clear how your ideas relate to one another.

[sleek egret]

little story... my father was a doctor. once my little brother (he was maybe 9 yrs old at the time) came home from camp with a broken arm. it was late, perhaps 11pm or midnight. my father called the hospital he worked at. did he ask for an ambulance or something? no. he asked "who's on call tonight?" they answered. he just said "thanks" and hung up.

he then turned to my little brother and said, "you're gonna have to wait until morning". my father didn't trust the doctor on call to even set a simple broken arm.

yes, some doctors are actually that incompetent. it's sort of scary.

[peak halo]

I gather he didn't trust himself to set a broken arm either, then?

[sleek egret]

you can't do that. it would be telling the doctor on call that you think he's a complete idiot.

I'm sure that if a few hours would make a difference in outcomes, my father would have taken different actions. but a bit of pain never killed anyone. so <shrug>

[true harness]

does waiting until morning not do that

[sleek egret]

I missunderstood what you meant. he waited for the morning shift, which would have included himself.

not like anyone would know

[true harness]

ah. that makes more sense. i suppose he would have more resources at the hospital as well

[sleek egret]

probably. but point is that if a doctor he respected had been on call, my pops would have taken my brother into the emergency room that night

you know who you work with is competent or not

[coral vine]

in the future, people will need help from real humans working jobs that help to guide them down one clear path for a successful future. due to information overload. a robot cant do that because it would have to consistently stick to that path for a long period of time and it cant help the human because along that path, empathy is a requirement. if this was not the case, i would use chat gpt every day, addictively

[sleek egret]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one

[true harness]

or just wait for the future

[sleek egret]

the dali lama once said, "the present is simply the future becoming the past"

[still condor]

Well, I'm more asking about whether I have any chances in doing so. Won't I be filtered out in some initial automated screening process because I don't have the required skill "keywords"?

I'm not some kind of rockstar or unique specialist, I'm just a mediocre programmer.

[true harness]

probably. i think you would need at least a personal project using the skill. otherwise they would need to run out of people with professional experience in the skill, or projects with the skill before turning to you

[sleek egret]

you don't have to be a "rockstar". just be competent and reliable and all employers will be happy.

[still condor]

but I am not competent in their tech stack

(that was my question, indeed)

[sleek egret]

there's a solution to that

[still condor]

spending a few more months tinkering with their stack on weekends?

[sleek egret]

there are many paths to the mountain top

[still condor]

hm?

[lapis zephyr]

Discord mod

[still condor]

lies, I am a bot

[true harness]

discord mod sounds like a very easy job to take over for a chatbot

[still condor]

I'm so bad I failed the Turing test in school

[lapis zephyr]

I still can’t pass most captchas

[smoky quest]

there isn't really any automated filtering keywords systems

[still condor]

huh?

is that not a thing?

[smoky quest]

nope. ATSes are just fancy spreadsheets

[still condor]

alright then, I suppose my bigger question is -- how eager are companies about hiring who's an overall competent programmer but without experience in their particular tech stack?

[smoky quest]

they do so routinely

[still condor]

I'm just having a bit of a hard time imagining like... me coming into a job and all I do it learn a new programming language? 🤔

that sounds wasteful from the employer's perspective

[smoky quest]

It's like knowing how to drive a honda or a ford. As long as you know one, you can pick up the other quickly

[smoky quest]

What matters is not the languages but the skills on top of it 😉

[still condor]

Can I? There's clearly a lot more to languages than just the syntax and such. There are language-specific patterns, some commonly accepted guidelines and practices, whole ecosystems basically

So I'm going to be doing some very stupid and un-idiomatic things for a few months at least. I'd have to be so much better than the next candidate who already knows that ecosystem

[smoky quest]

An engineer can pick up the syntax in a day and ramp up pretty quickly in a matter of days or weeks

that's just small potatoes. What matter are the skills on top like frontend or backend or whatever they are used for

[still condor]

I was actually thinking about a frontend job. They have some really nice stuff, tech-wise. But I have very limited experience, especially on the UI design part

[smoky quest]

exactly. So knowing angular or react or vue matters a lot less than being able to build a frontend with any of them. If you know angular or vue or react, then picking whichever is in use at the new company will be quick

[pine sleet]

i actually really do enjoy frontend development (since it's sort of artsy and creative, i suppose) but I'm hearing horror stories about the frontend dev worksplace environment

[sleek egret]

everyone starts from zero. you're no different.

stop thinking "I don't know how to do that" and start thinking, "I just need to learn how to do that. problem solved."

[pine sleet]

I also only work well with a very specific toolset which is a disadvantage
I think i'll have it as just a hobby for now

[lapis zephyr]

How do u learn the skills

[sleek egret]

you've already learned some new tools. you can learn more new tools

because, trust me, in 10 years, in 20 years, in 30 years there will be more new tools. and you'll have to learn them too.

[lapis zephyr]

But behind the tools it’s the same concepts?

[sleek egret]

mostly yes, but sometimes there's something new. and that's awesome!

[smoky quest]

through education, projects or professional experience

[lapis zephyr]

Projects is how I learnt, I found it like rpg game, like once I learnt one skill (i.e how to use lists) it unlocked a whole new set of things I could create

[sleek egret]

woah, so you "leveled up"?

[lapis zephyr]

Kinda lol

[sleek egret]

"that's poggers, man" (as the kids would say)

[lapis zephyr]

Lmao, it’s cool coz I had the creativity so it’s like once I learnt the base skill it was like oh I can do this and that with that, and then I learnt another part of the language and do more, I didn’t learnt python from any course, just got given friends discord bot studied it and then I built it up a lot more after

Now I can put python on cv

[sleek egret]

I learned python when I got a contract to do some risk analysis work for OTC derivatives. I decided to do it in python/pandas because, why not?

[lapis zephyr]

Python I think is the easiest language

I heard ruby is pretty simple too, I think c and rust and those have a steeper learning curve

[sleek egret]

indeed. wasn't a big deal to pick up the basics. ended up sorta liking it and so now I mostly use python for things that don't require the best performance.

[lapis zephyr]

What was your first language

[sleek egret]

I think it was BASIC on the TRS-80

[lapis zephyr]

Basic looked fun

[sleek egret]

but that was when I was just a kid, so I don't know if that should count. I mostly used it to write loops that would display funny/asinine crap on screens at the Radio Shack store.

[lapis zephyr]

My dad wrote games for me in basic, they were pretty simple text games

[deft herald]

it counts

I count TI-83+ BASIC as my first language

[sleek egret]

you're old

[deft herald]

not as old as you sound 😉

[sleek egret]

[deft herald]

TRS-80 was a good decade before i was born

[sleek egret]

did I know your mom?

[deft herald]

dad?

[sleek egret]

who can say?

[buoyant seal]

It depends on how close to you your transition. I would say, Backend Dev from one language to another is closest as possible transition, starting from the point when u learned core software engineering skills.. u already reuse very big amount of stuff to have same in another language.
Transcend beyond one language view basically.

Basically starting from middle rank Dev, which learned at some average enough code architecture stuff, transition should happen smoothly especially if u help it with pet projects and battle ready to new language usage at work (instead of learning on a spot)

Surely, u will be still filtered especially if your resume does not it present it in the way dumb recruiters would accept... But u know, duck them. Obfuscate resume to have no difference in language experience(or at least shown 1-2 years of its usage), if u learned second language at a good level in pet projects and comfortable with its ecosystem like in the first one while used it already
If u a ready to be interviewed in it... Then u a ready
When u a confident to defend your knowledge in technical interview with this another language and ecosystem, then go 🙂

[brittle thorn]

GWBasic in High School lmao

[strange pumice]

the heck

[honest pivot]

My first language was QBASIC

[strange pumice]

is there ay codin competion that i can compete

[true harness]

yes, many

[hearty island]

goddamnit i keep emailing trying to reschedule my interview but they don’t respond

[honest goblet]

is this ok 😭

[true harness]

that doesn't look like a coding competition

[honest goblet]

ive realized how bad my english is when reviewing my CV omg

[hearty island]

i’m confused why they aren’t responding 😭 looks like i’m being ghosted again

i’m not missing my finance class to interview 😤

[honest goblet]

hackathon?

[strange pumice]

how do i register is it global

[honest goblet]

but yeah if anyone wanna have a look and give some feedback id highly appreciate it 🙏

[honest goblet]

uh check eventbrite or meetup i think i heard they have it there

[hearty island]

company pls respond 😭, don’t ghost me like Oracle

[strange pumice]

ew who wants to work for oracle

[true harness]

i'm not sure how i feel about your skills section
the bullets in your personal projects need to be improved. no one wants to read a giant bullet. put them into separate lines

[honest goblet]

What about the content and wording?

Ill fix the layout soon im not too worried about it i am more focussed on the wording

I took advice fron last time and gave specific points this time

[true harness]

in your skills section, a lot of it sounds too drawn out, e.g., "For example, wrote a ...". stuff like this could be condensed. that entire bullet should be one line, something like, "increased productivity by x% writing a script to ... "

[honest goblet]

For that i could probably remove the first part of the sentence isnt it

[true harness]

probably. you want to keep the "action word", like "reduced", or "increased", and stuff like that

[honest goblet]

Why is cv writing so hard 💀

[true harness]

it's a skill you need to learn

[honest goblet]

Ok i agree i think the personal projects is a bit to thick and dense

So for the skills section, is it enough content? Should i add another subsection?

[true harness]

well i'm honestly just not sure of the value of the Skills section as you currently have it. i think that a lot of these could just be turned into entries in the personal projects section. the "constructed a robot" seems impressive enough, and you're already dedicating 2 bullet points to it. same with the data analysis project

also, reduce the whitespace in between entries more. especially between sections

[near ocean]

Is the skills section actually an experience section

[true harness]

he originally had it titled that, but they are just school work

[honest goblet]

Stuff i did at uni

I have no experience because i just finished uni

[honest goblet]

Would a massive "personal projects" section be needed then?

[true harness]

well you have nothing else. my resume is about 60% personal projects, and it will turn into more once i progress a bit more on another project

my understanding of the "Skills" section is that it's essentially supposed to be a list of the things you're familiar with, not something with headers and bullets

[hearty island]

me

[honest goblet]

ahhhh right

i feel like that might be relevant for me because i have no exp

man this is so depressing i cant even make a cv 💀

[true harness]

you're supposed to learn this before you graduate 😔. does your uni have career services? you can probably still use them

[strange pumice]

dont

[honest goblet]

They are useless i swear its just articles i can google

[true harness]

oof. they don't have like, resume reviews?

[near ocean]

Youre supposed to learn about this on the internet from discord strangers

[honest goblet]

i dont see the point, my english is horrendous so creative writing and stuff like this is extremely hard for me

Like i gotta learn to write isnt it

[true harness]

yes, it's a learned skill

[honest goblet]

Ok i will try to write again and see what happens 😦

[hearty island]

no

[honest goblet]

https://tenor.com/view/gigachad-chad-gif-20773266

[true harness]

😬 it's been 2 weeks since my last interview. I think it's time to follow up 😬

[hearty island]

yep

a large part of my job as a pm intern is just bothering people with emails asking them to do their job 😭

i really hope that company responds for my interview rescheduling

[honest goblet]

does anyone have CV writing resources 🤭

[buoyant seal]

95% of stuff my manager does, reminds me to fill spent working hours in table (we do self management regarding spent hours to work)
and the rest of time, we speak about weather/news and everything else rarely related to work 😁

[sleek egret]

so how's the weather today in your neck of the woods?

[true harness]

bad

[delicate bane]

isnt that what a regular project manager does. jk.

[hearty island]

it seems like it

[hearty island]

lord have mercy on my soul

[delicate bane]

product manager when

[hearty island]

centene internship when

i better start listening to project manager podcasts

the title of my role at centene is “Problem Management Business Analyst Intern”

[sleek egret]

it's not like you have anything better to do, amirite?

what is centene?

[hearty island]

health insurance company

[sleek egret]

you manage problems?

or do you perform analysis of problem management?

[hearty island]

and put out fires honestly i have no idea what the job entails and the interviewer didn’t really make it clear for me either

all i know is that they want me to use power bi somehow

[sleek egret]

and AI, I hope

[hearty island]

aI

[sleek egret]

hey, it could be worse. a buddy of mine works for a subcontractor that manages other subcontractors for a prime contractor (of gov projects). he's literally a manager that manages managers who manage managers on behalf of other managers

[hearty island]

yep i remember you told me

[sleek egret]

that is not an exaggeration. he hates his job.

[hearty island]

i will emphasize to them that i want to do project management stuff tho

[sleek egret]

if you work hard, someday you might be able to have his job! 😋

[hearty island]

if i ask them to put me in touch with people who have PMPs and work w them that would be cool

[sleek egret]

because they know football?

[hearty island]

PMP is a project management professional cert

[sleek egret]

yeah, I know what it is 🙂

[hearty island]

i need that stupid cert

[sleek egret]

may I ask why?

[hearty island]

otherwise i’m stuck at making 70K

[sleek egret]

you could become a software developer instead. just a thought.

[hearty island]

coding isn’t really my strength 😦

[sleek egret]

so? the same is true of most programmers

[hearty island]

idk project management always appealed to me more

[sleek egret]

well, to each their own, I guess. personally, PM tasks have always just annoyed me.

[hearty island]

still 2 more years till i qualify for the PMP, mad annoying

i’m also on a project management server and all they talk about is the PMP

[sleek egret]

lol

sometimes it seems like the only people who care about the PMP are people who have or want to get a PMP. and the people giving them out, I guess.

[hearty island]

i can get the CAPM in the mean time tho

gives me something to do till the PMP

i should start talking to project managers at centene

[true harness]

<@&831776746206265384>

[dapper depot]

@fleet lily do not post ads here

!rule 6 9

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[ornate junco]

Does anyone think that AI can replace programmers?

[umbral plume]

Hmm

[final crypt]

I do

[ornate junco]

Completely?

[smoky quest]

yes

[final crypt]

eventually yeah

[near ocean]

Definitely, you shouldn't waste your time

[buoyant seal]

not really. I believe current technology has too much flaws and limitations to succeed in this yet
Perhaps it will be able one day, but not today. And may be not at this technological level

[ornate junco]

interesting but valid point

[final crypt]

There will still be technical people who can work with the ai needed but most of the programmers today will have to get a new position

[ornate junco]

Fair enough

[buoyant seal]

so far chances for invention of AI that can replace programmers, like chances to open hyperdrive engine to fly faster than light 🙂
Supposedly possible, but when, and what are chances for this miracle to happen 🙂

[final crypt]

dont think they will have any problems adapting to the new jobs tho

[ornate junco]

I mean, its a possibility, a huge one at that however it'll take time

[smoky quest]

the AI could work on itself 😉

[ornate junco]

exactly.

[final crypt]

well the code monkey jobs that are supposed to get your foot in the door will dissapear

[buoyant seal]

Might as well be possibility that it will not happen close 1000 years, or we destroy ourselves in nuclear apocalypse, shortage of resources, enviromental doomsday far earlier than AI threat will be a problem

[final crypt]

even now it is hard to get the 2 years experience for the most jobs imagine how hard will it be in a few years when the ai will get more advanced

[smoky quest]

We are already using AI to generate programs to solve problems

[buoyant seal]

this is from assumption current technology can be improved further. May be chatGPT is the maximum it is possible to squeeze out of it today.

[final crypt]

https://youtu.be/Mqg3aTGNxZ0

and gpt 5 is supposed to release in the near future and should be 10 times better

[ornate junco]

chatGPT has a limited amount of knowledge for now so I guess its safe to say that if AI does replace programmers, it'll take 10-20 years or even more

[buoyant seal]

this saying is kind of false. Because u assume that technology regarding AI is iterably improvable.
But it is kind of more like miracle driven + while constrainted by available hardware power and data limitations + available math/algorithms discovered

what are chances for new miracles to happen? miracle is miracle 🙂 may happen tomorrow, may happen in 1000 years

[smoky quest]

That has nothing to do with miracles

[buoyant seal]

is it so? discovery of neural networks technology is not a miracle itself?

[true harness]

maybe we have a different definition of miracle

[smoky quest]

lol no. That's older than most folks in this channel

[buoyant seal]

i mentioned being constrained by available hardware and data resource powers 🙂 and available math/algorithms discovered
took time to really implement it, while satisfying conditions

[smoky quest]

Right. But that's still not a miracle. It's the result of various progress across multiple fields. All these progress have been iterative

[buoyant seal]

but you know, who first discovered this old tech neural networks back then? wasn't it a miracle than someone realized it is what it is (while got inspired by Biology of our brains)
and then it can be applied in algorithms as it is technology today?

[true harness]

define "miracle"

[smoky quest]

You mean it's a miracle that science will look at what works in nature and how it works?

[buoyant seal]

miracle = something not existing before, or not realized by humanity as existed before (it may have existed in nature anyway), but then it happened and/or humanity was able to recognize its existence / understand at least approximately how it can be observed and/or works

[smoky quest]

I do also think the analogy with brains is overused for neural networks. non linear sums of weight is not something unexpected

[sleek egret]

I think the hope is that we can use a set of linear activation functions to more or less simulate non-linear functions

so even if biological neural nets use non-linear activation functions, you can emulate it by using a larger artificial net using linear activation functions

at least, that's the basic idea/hope

[buoyant seal]

you know, from some point of view, we can say it is miracle all software works at all, considering how fragile it is to make and to run one, while it depends on so many things to work correctly 🙂

[sleek egret]

larger software systems are literally the most complex constructions ever built by man

[vapid jay]

Is there a discussio on insecurity of certain job types,due to ai?

[sleek egret]

by orders of magnitude

[vapid jay]

How to avoid being redundant to AI?

[sleek egret]

easy, just be smarter than the AI

[vapid jay]

[sleek egret]

shouldn't be that hard. the most advanced today have on the order of 100's of bil of weights. that's less than a small mouse

[delicate bane]

that is what my mentor says. how brittle software systems actually are. also the internet infrastructure lol

[sleek egret]

humans are even more brittle. ever drop a person off a 4th story roof? they go all splat and stop working.

not that I'd know anything about that, of course

[vapid jay]

What is stopping companies from using chat gpt 4 for coding?

[sleek egret]

you have to know what questions to ask it, for one

[vapid jay]

Well,if they have 1 dev

[sleek egret]

AI's cannot yet read people's minds

[vapid jay]

That can do the work of 10 with the help of chat gpt 4

[sleek egret]

what makes you think most devs would know what questions to ask? (hint, they don't)

[true harness]

its capabilities

[near ocean]

You could ask 10 people in your company how they would interpret a customer requirement and get 10 different answers
Do you think chat gpt would do better

[sleek egret]

the last time I asked chatgpt a technical question, it got it wrong

[unborn bridge]

A local company asked me to take a lengthy online survey with hundreds of questions, sometimes very ridiculous questions, and after 45 minutes I completed it, and they didn't respond for three weeks. This is their response:
Thank you for taking the time to complete the Successfinder survey. Unfortunately, the answers you provided gave us data that is inconclusive at this time and we are requesting that you take the survey again. The email with a link to the reassessment survey will follow this email, and will come from the Successfinder platform.
All so they can avoid having an interview and treating me like a human being.

[vapid jay]

3 or 4?

[sleek egret]

why did you bother taking the survey?

[unborn bridge]

because I'll be homeless if I don't find employment within a matter of weeks

[sleek egret]

they aren't gonna find you employment

[unborn bridge]

find? they're offering

[sleek egret]

they lied

[true harness]

well they aren't offering yet, lol

[sleek egret]

you do not get job leads after taking a survey.

[vapid jay]

I'm doing a survey next week for a $75 gift card

[unborn bridge]

The survey is part of their online assessment. It's fairly common, albeit something I despise. I'm not sure what you're thinking when you say job leads, but this is part of their onboarding process.

[true harness]

onboarding is after you accept an offer

[unborn bridge]

I will not argue that correction.

[vapid jay]

A lot of scaremongering on yt and the like

[near ocean]

Fear makes clicks makes money

[vapid jay]

Even david bombal?

[sleek egret]

what is bombal?

[brazen hollow]

what is the minimum requirements to make money with python ? I mean which or what things we should've known.

[true harness]

that would depend on the job. it's different for each

[brazen hollow]

for sure, i just wondering...

[smoky quest]

If you are in HS or college age, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[brazen hollow]

I'm 21 yo as ya said

[smoky quest]

That still fits the profile

[true harness]

what have you been doing since hs?

[brazen hollow]

could you have got any chance to explain more what did you mean especially with the "resistance" and "compensation" words

[sleek egret]

while's possible to have a good career as a programmer without a university degree, not having one makes it much more difficult

[brazen hollow]

not in hs but i know some basics ( not good enough imo ) for java and python

[smoky quest]

Life is not binary and so are careers.
So having better education/skills/experience leads to a much easier life and more responsibilities and $$$. While having less of education/skills/experience means you will have a more difficult life, difficulty to find jobs and less responsibilities and $$$

[sleek egret]

if you don't have a degree, you will be auto-rejected for some 80% of jobs. you will typically be offered less money than those with degrees. you will be passed up for promotion more often. it will be nearly impossible for you to be promoted to senior exec levels.

[brazen hollow]

I'll have a university degree in 3ish years

[smoky quest]

Like for instance, someone with a degree may have recruiters reaching out to THEM for jobs. While someone without a degree may have to send thousands of resumes to get one potential call back for an interview

[sleek egret]

that said, if you're dedicated and actually know what you're doing, you have a reasonable shot at building a solid career as a programmer without a degree. it's just harder.

[sleek egret]

awesome, then you should start looking for internships

your university will help you out with that.

[true harness]

are you in university right now?

[brazen hollow]

Actually i'm a student at 2nd grade on compeng
but my university is not good enough, unfortunately

Also i'd like to say i'm not like a person who is studying 2nd grade (that's not totally my university's fault, i've not cared about my lessons enough)

that's why i didn't say/emphasise that in the first question

[smoky quest]

so were you asking your initial question because you are thinking of dropping out?

[brazen hollow]

nah, i still wanna get a university diploma as you said, i think it should be

[sleek egret]

"my university is not good enough" <= that just means you have to learn the shit on your own. which is the same as the rest of your life, so no big woop.

after your first few jobs, almost no one will care what uni you went to anyway

[smoky quest]

Note also it's NOT too late to start caring more 😉
It will pay off, like compound interest

[delicate bane]

this is a funny comic

[sleek egret]

most people don't understand compound interest either 🙂

[smoky quest]

they need more company talk about 401k

[brazen hollow]

Exactly

[brazen hollow]

Yeah, i'll attend my classes and i wanna make my notes better

[smoky quest]

A large part of the effort is just consistently showing up

[sleek egret]

I should have showed up to more classes, lol

[brazen hollow]

but on the other hand, i wanna enter the real world
that's the main reason my initial question, also i thought if i can make money without expected much as a student.

[sleek egret]

for god's sake, why? university is way less stress, and way more fun.

[brazen hollow]

this period is already online education cuz of earthquakes

[sleek egret]

you think being evaluated for school classes is annoying? imagine being evaluated with rules that change all the time and you don't know what they actually are. that's "real life".

[brazen hollow]

[sleek egret]

consider the lessons of the film, "Everything, Everywhere, All at Once"

[smoky quest]

At your stage, you would have more ROI by working on projects and digging deeper in the materials you see in class

[sleek egret]

and internships

[coral vine]

I’m confused! I really want this job because it’s 5 miles from my home and my moms shop is in the same city! They contacted me 2 days ago on LinkedIn and I said I was interested but they haven’t got back and it’s been 2 days . Am I sposed to just….. call the phone number that was in their message? O.o to schedule a talk for the position? And from the job description, it was an actual entry level position that I meet the criteria for

Also, the same scammer contacted me again but pretending to be yet another existing company.

And the other company that I was sposed to interview at this week, got back and said sorry but they filled it with an internal hire Dx

[true harness]

for the first one, i'd wait at least until a week. for the second and third: oof

[coral vine]

What if they give it to someone else who is faster than me Dx

[true harness]

your censoring is not very censoring

[coral vine]

It seems like a really good place too because it’s a company headquarter that has 10k workers? So maybe I don’t have to work too hard

[near ocean]

That is an automatic post, there is no "race" with other candidates as far as you can tell

[near ocean]

Thats not exactly true either

[true harness]

there's no correlation between the amount of workers and the amount of work you have to do

[smoky quest]

account manager? Not looking for software engineering?

[spark cobalt]

I think that's the person's title on LinkedIn

[coral vine]

Sorry I’m noticing I’m being quite vague with my messages since I kind of rush to write things out xD I guess I mean more highly developed vs early developed company

So highly developed one tends to have more resources and automated systems in place for smoother workflow. I know I still could work more and all but I just mean one is more organized than the other due to scale and age

[spark cobalt]

I get a shit ton of automated messages lol, so far it's just been if I don't know them, their message has been spam.

[coral vine]

Do you think these automated messages even work? Like I call and I just interview with them? O.o social anxiety Dx

Yes for some reason, that persons title is both account manager and recruiter o.o

[spark cobalt]

It probably worked before if that's what you're asking.

Lot of bottom feeder recruiters do the same thing in email. They shotgun a fuckton of seemingly random jobs to everyone they can

[smoky quest]

Either way, that's odd

[spark cobalt]

Yeah lol

[coral vine]

So I just called them actually. They didn’t pick up so I left them a message stating my interest in the position.

Dang I overthink things way too much but it wasn’t even bad at all o.o

[dreamy spade]

It’s taking me much longer as a graduate. smh https://fortune-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/fortune.com/2023/03/16/how-long-does-unemployment-last-quitting-great-resignation-3-months-should-i-quit-job/amp/

[near ocean]

That is for job switchers, they have experience and are already in the industry

It took me 9 months to find my first job as a graduate for comparison

[dreamy spade]

Yeah you told me

[true harness]

i also seem to recall you don't have a bachelor's, right?

[dreamy spade]

No 🤣

And I’m laughing because I was at a bank recruitment information session this week and one audience member was asking why her application got rejected without a reason given when she has work experience in finance as well as having a bachelor of finance. A bachelor won’t make a difference in my situation.

[true harness]

well, you're not applying for finance, are you?

[dreamy spade]

No. But there’s competition in every field.

[true harness]

but the qualifications for every field are different. the competition is different. i mean, there isn't much use arguing about this, either way

[dreamy spade]

Yeah and there’s people who get hired at banks without a bachelors as well.

[true harness]

sure, i don't dispute that. the difference is in the number of people with and without bachelor's degrees, not whether or not they exist

if there was 0 correlation, you would expect to see equal number with and without, but you clearly don't, in the software field

[spark cobalt]

If you don't have a bachelors and no experience, your portfolio will be the biggest weight supporting you. And last time when we reviewed your portfolio, it was very underwhelming to say the least. (We're talking about completely unfit to be a developer anywhere, if that's the best you've been able to produce, even in an intern level.)

Have you advanced your portfolio since then?

[true harness]

in any case, i think you're set on not returning to school, so this argument is moot

[dreamy spade]

Yeah returning to school would be a gamblers fallacy.

[true harness]

i don't think you know what that means

[spark cobalt]

What's the fallacy in employers wanting college degrees?.

[dreamy spade]

Somebody’s with a bachelor’s of finance got their application rejected. Why would I pay 💰 (again) to go back to college to get a bachelor’s if it didn’t get somebody else a job?

[near ocean]

What was the reason for the rejection?

[dreamy spade]

And do you think a bachelors is the only way to get hired?

[true harness]

well for one thing, you're not looking for work in the finance field, so that example is irrelevant. secondly, because it makes you more qualified, it's not just a piece of paper at the end

[true harness]

no, just the easiest

[spark cobalt]

This is all about chances.

The same thing could be said about being a criminal. You have a better chance of getting a job by not being a criminal, that isn't to say that if you were a criminal it's impossible.

Franky, it's not that enticing to hire a criminal, just how it's not that enticing to hire a non-degree since there's many others with degrees to choose from.

[dreamy spade]

They’re reason was the bank literally receives a 1000 applications for the same position so what they do is pick a percentage of the 1000 applications to review. In other words, they don’t look at every application because there was too many.

[spark cobalt]

And who do you think they filter out first? More likely or not, non-degree holders. So if degree people are having struggles, oh boy...

[dreamy spade]

Finance pays just as good as tech

[true harness]

medicine pays less. you need an MD. you don't for tech

[spark cobalt]

Also Keezy, I think this is your major issue in job hunting.

[dreamy spade]

I change it all the time

[spark cobalt]

That's not exactly good lol

[true harness]

i think it's a general resume issue. it's not that appealing to look at. additionally the additional warehouse jobs have no marginal utility

[near ocean]

Finance gives much more weight on academic credentials than software dev
Why not apply to a more accessible field like webdev

[dreamy spade]

You’re right. I removed one job and added a row in my project section.

[true harness]

they do not filter applicants automatically. they sort based on some criteria. the closer the applicant matches, the closer to the top of the pile

[spark cobalt]

He only has very raw, minimal VanillaJS projects. Things you'd learn in the first week of web dev.

His portfolio is simply just too underwhelming

[near ocean]

So just go deeper in the subject, no big deal
Instead of complaining about the struggle, put some time aside to learn web technologies

[dreamy spade]

They stated in the recruitment session that they don’t care about degrees. They value customer service > degree holders. As they should.

[true harness]

are you sure that's a job you want 😬

[spark cobalt]

That sounds more like help desk IT level work.

[dreamy spade]

What do you mean? I do.

[near ocean]

Why are you mentioning the finance rejection then, is it relevant

[true harness]

it kind of does feel like we're all piling on against you, but we're really trying to help you out

*also, that's a note to mariosis and wilder 😔 pls be nice ;-;

[dreamy spade]

Yes because a lady with a bachelor of finance got rejected.

[near ocean]

Yes and? Its a different industry with different standards

[dreamy spade]

It’s the same company that’s also hiring developers

[spark cobalt]

Sure, I deal with customers (ones I talk to are engineers from Bloomberg) all the time. But if I had a very limited view on the technology I'm building, I wouldn't be able to answer their questions and be able to reasonably scope out features they're requesting for.

[smoky quest]

different teams may behave differently and have different criteria, even within the same skillset

[near ocean]

Companies hiring for different roles in different depts use different standards, come on man

[spark cobalt]

Though, I will say I don't really do customer service part, we just do syncups biweekly...

But ultimately, even as an IT help desk person, there is a level of understanding you need to know, and from the resume you sent in the past, it doesn't show that you have that level of understanding. How can you do customer service on something you don't know? That sounds like bullshitting the customers rather than serving them.

[true harness]

you wouldn't hire a janitor under the same standards as a senior dev. same company does not mean anything

[near ocean]

I havent seen their projects, the version of their cv i see posted here doesnt mention them by name

Also that version surely must have generated feedback from the channel, multiple columns, weird styling, layout, etc

[spark cobalt]

One of their projects was a VIN validator. Basically an easy-level Leetcode question as their project.
Another one was this console based MMORPG. Essentially those console games we would build in like the first 2 weeks of learning CS. There wasn't that much scale to it which was the root of why it was underwhelming.

[near ocean]

They dont have to be massive super complex projects to wow someone
But yea you need stuff thats less react-hello-world-ish

[spark cobalt]

It's less than react-hello-world-ish stuff which was my concern

But yeah, at minimum they need to show that you have engineering value to a company.

Having relevant technologies, like React, on your portfolio becomes a huge bonus in your favor.
Being able to build things under scale, showing basic system design principle, maturity in commits/testing/devops, etc.

[near ocean]

I've seen it on pretty much everyone applying to our team, they all had literal forks of react/express/flask/x-framework templates

[true harness]

actually, one of my recent interviews, i wasn't even interviewed by a tech guy. he was pretty impressed with my projects even if most of them weren't really that impressive (😬). if you just apply to non-big-tech companies, you can easily have a good chance even with mediocre projects

[spark cobalt]

I think under context that you're a freshman, it's better than most other freshman's resume out there. Hence, impressive

[near ocean]

My projects are (were 😔) pretty small, GH action, small cli stuff, the odd flask/react app, discord bot

[true harness]

yeah but i'm not being compared against freshman, i'm being compared against all applicants. though for internships i'm sure it's different than for new grad roles

[spark cobalt]

It doesn't remove that you're a freshman.

[spark cobalt]

Same with mine. But I think my major selling factor was that 2 of my projects were being used by hundreds of people.

[true harness]

well sure. i'm just saying you can't compare against just freshmen if non-freshmen are applying

[spark cobalt]

Almost all of my projects were just seeing a need for technology in a community and then fitting that need.

[spark cobalt]

Fair enough. Though I do think that a freshman with a "junior" level resume (or whatever grade, idk) shows a lot of potential within itself.

[true harness]

we'll see 😔 🤞

[spark cobalt]

I don't think internships and full time roles are evaluated the same. That being, someone can believe that you show more promise than a sophomore with the same level of resume. But in a full time role, it's mostly, who can get the job done and everyone's judged on the same basis.

But dunno, I think you're not giving yourself enough credit

[spark cobalt]

Have you applied to or looked into GSOC?

[true harness]

closes in a week 😬

[spark cobalt]

Applications opened just recently. It's a pretty fun way to work on big technology like Postgres and whatnot. And many of these bigger organizations pay you as well.

[true harness]

i shall look into this

[spark cobalt]

Heard lots of good things about it

[buoyant seal]

There is a limit to what person can do within limited free time. It is fine ☺️

[near ocean]

It wasnt the free time, it was when I got hired
GH energy ran out

I had plenty of free time really but 10h work day then come home to more spaghetti?

[true harness]

wdym "it is fine"

[near ocean]

Its fine not to build ginormous projects in your spare time

[true harness]

sure i guess, but if small projects are preventing you from being hired, it's not really fine

[spark cobalt]

I'm building a ginornous side project rn, lots of work

[near ocean]

In my case i kind of completely gave up after i signed my offer, you can see it in my 2021 GH commit graph, its sad

[spark cobalt]

Doing with a bunch of college students, so every week have to do seminars to teach them so they're able to contribute

And each seminar has been like 2 hours long. So much time preparing

Yesterday was cramming work so today I could have time to prepare. Didn't get a chance to eat dinner

[spark cobalt]

My public commit graph is always so empty lol, mostly everything I do is in like a private org or something

[true harness]

the lurking is unbelievable

edit: 😭

[true harness]

ooh i can do the PSF 👀

[spark cobalt]

[true harness]

😬 the deadline is so soon though. maybe next year 😬

[knotty drum]

I just quit my job

Hopefully this programming thing works out

[fluid flicker]

you got it, we all belive!

[hearty island]

YES THEY RESCHEDULED MY INTERVIEW

[true harness]

huh. this late?

[hearty island]

yeah i don’t know what took so long for them to respond to my email

[true harness]

that does not seem like a healthy working schedule

[hearty island]

wdym?

like they were suspiciously late re-scheduling it?

i don’t think so, it’s a company in new york

don’t know what you mean by unhealthy working schedule

[smoky quest]

if they work past 9pm on their timezone on a friday, what does that say about their work/life balance?

[hearty island]

oh they sent that email at 12:30 PM i had bad wifi bc i was doing something in jamaica for spring break

they didn’t send it at 9 PM thank god id be worried

[spark cobalt]

I worked past 9 PM yesterday so I could not work today

[harsh river]

sounds offtopic

[peak halo]

that comment is fine.

I front-loaded this week so that I could mostly not work today

[harsh river]

i forgot the /s

[peak halo]

!cleanban 1062937657593835570 racism

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @grim briar permanently.

[hearty island]

sorry wrong server 💀

anyways i’m excited for my interview

[umbral haven]

what did they say

[smoky quest]

It doesn't matter

[umbral haven]

It kind of does

[smoky quest]

it has nothing to do with this channel's topic

[umbral haven]

if it doesnt matter why did he get banned for it

[smoky quest]

It still has nothing to do with #career-advice. Do you have a question or topic related to #career-advice ?
Alternatively, one may think you are an alt to them are and looking for a closer look from a mod

[umbral haven]

bros accusing me of a alt 💀 if u a braincell you can look at my bio

its okay some people just lack critical thinking skills...

[smoky quest]

That's alright. I am sure you will get the help you need

[umbral haven]

bro thinks hes slick but goes around throwing baseless accusations

[manic mica]

Hi, I have recently completed my Masters CS and now I want to start my career as a backend django developer but I am unable to get things started can anyone here suggest a good career path towards acheving my end goal

I am good at python language and have been working with it for more then 6 years. Over this period I have developed a few webapps using django but i was never able to complete the tasks

[restive inlet]

unfinished projects Won't help you to find jobs, they like to see results as well, don't you think Zohaib?

[manic mica]

I am sure they do. But the problem here is I am a Mechanical Engineer by profession and Later on I opted for the field of CS. My current job is still hardcore mechanical engineering related job.

I want to make a switch from my current role to a CS field preferable a django developer

I have experience as a freelancer as well. I used to work on Fiverr and have completed 4 tasks with a 5 star rating.

I am trying to get some job at upwork any entry level work would be very helpful but again its very difficult.

[restive inlet]

Sounds more interesting, ..

[manic mica]

if someone here can guide me and mentor me towards getting the required skill for setting my career path towards my goal it would be very helpful

[restive inlet]

one of the admins, mods or partners will know someone who'll be very good

[smoky quest]

what's stopping you from applying for such jobs?

In terms of projects, their nature or state does not matter. What matters are 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏

[rare harbor]

guys that didnt work

pls help me

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
This has nothing to do with #career-advice . You may want to check out #❓｜how-to-get-help for help

[manic mica]

I agree and I am pouncing at every opportunity that is coming my way

[smoky quest]

good luck!

[pastel thunder]

I had an interview yesterday, went well.
One anomalous question was following:

HIM: why F1 is HM?
ME: To punish score even if one of precision or recall is low even when other might be high.
HIM: so why cant we use F1=precision X recall

Now, i wasnt able to comeup with explanation, he told me it had to do something with Harmonic motion that we learn in high school.
Does anyone know why F1 cant be precision X recall?

[rare harbor]

oke

[balmy mural]

Might get better answers for this in #data-science-and-ml

[buoyant seal]

#web-development message
#web-development message
Advice to get software engineering core subjects covered up to stage 2 included at least, best all three though

Take a note of importance of pet projects mentioned there / practice of all of it somewhere

Besides that u can find useful those additional roadmaps, for more technological part of what can be expected from backend Dev (SQL databases and rest apis in general but some other elementary stuff can be needed too)

Some roadmaps

1. https://roadmap.sh/devops , https://roadmap.sh/backend and others from https://roadmap.sh/
2. good python one in much details https://github.com/amaargiru/pyroad
3. https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/blob/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg my own one

Mentioned resources to learn in my roadmap mostly repeats software dev core skills roadmap though, but has route like for learning Git:

1. book Head First Git learn
2. Git CLI interactive course https://learngitbranching.js.org/
3. Learn just 6 git best practices https://deepsource.io/blog/git-best-practices/
4. Git Pro book to finish it for good https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2

[buoyant seal]

The part regarding finishing projects is tricky one
It helped me combination of things to start finishing them

1. unit testing
2. good clean code
3. I enjoyed working in good clean architectured ones
4. it is quite important not to overcomplicate project (especially in architecture side)
5. in the end most important to finish projects was... To split project goals into most most minimal first product, while other all features planning for next releases.
   Together with writing tasks into GitHub Issues, joined by Milestones, I saw finite path to finish them. It helped me to find strength to make those jumps

System design and analysis by Alan Dennis book can help better planning projects
I heard advice about book:
The lean product playbook (by Dan Olsen), it should help theoretically even more to plan better their finishing

But besides good planning, it is just important eliminating technical debt in time. It made their Development nice to deal with all the time

[uncut thunder]

Hey,a newbie here ,Does anyone work with simpy in discrete event simulations??

[peak halo]

Be sure to check channel topics before engaging--try #data-science-and-ml

[hearty island]

i’m thinking of making this internship for next fall, but idk if centene will extend the offer if i do well

[sleek egret]

what happens if they don't?

[hearty island]

if they don’t, then maybe this company i’m interviewing for will. or maybe i will get another company

rip my oracle hopes 🪦

[sleek egret]

there is no point in fretting about unknowns

[hearty island]

yeah but i need plans

[graceful lark]

Hello guys

Guys I wanted to know that is it possible to get online job after learning python for 3 years regularly

[sleek egret]

sure it's possible. the question is how hard is it to do?

[buoyant seal]

everything is possible, but indeed how hard it is to do. And effort within 3 years can be made pretty different one.
probably usually it is easier for novices to get hired locally, because usually there is need to supervise juniors more
and the path to job will be way smoothly if spending 4 years of getting CS bachelor's degree at this point, while learning everything in addition to be ready for work

remote job is more for middle devs and higher
or for short term freelancers. Freelancing is its own difficult path to go, and usually followed by people already having industrial experience

[sleek egret]

all my freelance consulting contracts came from contacts I made while working jobs

[graceful lark]

Thanks for replying but I wanna clear something
I don't have any degree i am doing bachelor in science I am learning from YouTube ,edx etc

[sleek egret]

not having a degree will make it more difficult to get a job

it will also limit the sorts of jobs you are considered for

[buoyant seal]

you are already doing bachelor in science? Computer science or some different science?
what kind of program u have there, do you not have programming subjects?

[true harness]

you're currently in university?

[graceful lark]

Different science like physics chemistry and maths

[buoyant seal]

STEM then

[graceful lark]

Yes

[sleek egret]

what you're looking for then is called an "internship". your university will have resources to help you with that.

[graceful lark]

Man I am from a remote area

[sleek egret]

I fail to see how that matters

[graceful lark]

I study in local college which doesn't even have computers

[sleek egret]

even colleges in poor regions of rural africa have computers

[buoyant seal]

#career-advice message
btw, i can recommend to learn more to read and to learn from books, they can really help more than yt. at least for some people

[sleek egret]

hyperbole will not help you make rational decisions or determine a reasonable course of action

[graceful lark]

Yes I read python books also

[true harness]

if possible, you should switch to CS if you want to do software engineering

[graceful lark]

I am learning oop in python now

[buoyant seal]

if possible, you should switch to CS if you want to do software engineering
that's too especially if it is early years of university

[graceful lark]

Not possible my college doesn't have this course and I can't go to any other place due to personal problems

[true harness]

math will be your next best bet then probably

[sleek egret]

there are systems shared by many university where internship positions are posted and where you can apply for them. again, talk to your university to gain access.

[white relic]

it is possible to get a good job in programming with a non-CS degree (I have)
but how you do that and how easy it would be, depends on what kind of degree it is

[sleek egret]

physics/math is fine

[buoyant seal]

fine, but CS degree will make it at least 1.5 easier to get CS related job

[white relic]

they didn't actually say what degree they're studying for

[sleek egret]

most employers will consider people with pretty much any sort of math-heavy major

[graceful lark]

See the point is my family has a small business and I am helping my family so that is why I can't go to any other place but I have a keen interest in programming and was thinking that can I earn from it

Something like online job that I can do while helping my family

[sleek egret]

the highest chance of you getting a remote job is as an intern. internships are literally temporary pre-entry-level jobs for students.

[graceful lark]

Are intern ships online?

[white relic]

rarely.

[sleek egret]

<facepalms>

[sleek egret]

actually, internships are remote quite often these days

[true harness]

I have actually seen a lot of online internships, but they've been US only

[white relic]

🤷‍♂️

[buoyant seal]

(best to check which country he is in then)

[sleek egret]

personally, I find remote-only internships to be a bit beside the point, but no one asked me. so...

[graceful lark]

I am from India
Large population
Large competition
So why one would hire me

[white relic]

right, why would one hire you?

[buoyant seal]

big amount of jobs also, and need in cheap labour 😉 at least cheap skilled labour

[white relic]

perhaps because you got a degree with good grades, or because you have exceptional skill demonstrated some other way, or maybe you just get exceptionally lucky. People have gotten jobs for all of those reasons.

Maybe because you are good at networking and you made contact with someone who is hiring.

[graceful lark]

I am well studious first in my college but my college level is low

[white relic]

if you want to make a career out of software development, though, getting lucky is not a career plan

you may have to give up on other goals to achieve it, or get creative

[sleek egret]

neither is a sob story

[buoyant seal]

of perhaps you can just increase your CHANCES to get job with LUCK
by having different modifiers INCREASING your luck 🙂
getting good degree
getting good grades
getting internships
participating in hackatons/coding social activies
creating pet projects with user base to give feedback
learning in self studies

Every additional point INCREASES your LUCK to get a job easier 🙂

[graceful lark]

Is it possible by only learning python for eg machine learning etc

[white relic]

many things are possible, but still extremely difficult.

[sleek egret]

almost anything is possible

[white relic]

(see the second pinned post in this channel)

[graceful lark]

Guys thank you very much you all cleared all of my doubts

[dusk matrix]

Hey i need help pricing project.

Its mobile app for gym owner and customers, customers can extend their pass etc., and the most challenging thing is openinb doors with NFC through app. Owner wants me to create that doors security system as well. How much should i price it?

[summer roost]

have you made something similar before? Have you researched whether similar products exist already?

[dusk matrix]

I made apps and physical things before but this will combine these two, i know how to make it without ant problem, the problem is pricing it cuz it will take some time

From my research i didnt find any similiar products

(At least on polish market, but it doesnt change anything becsuse its product for one person on contract)

[sleek egret]

what electronic locks are the gyms using?

because you'll need to interface with that. and how complex that is depends on their API, if they have an API.

[dusk matrix]

For now they doesnr use anything, thats the problem - i need to do anything related to it on my own

[sleek egret]

so you're gonna manufacture electronic locks for a single location? I don't know man, that sounds less than optimal. 😋

[dusk matrix]

I would hae to code microcontroller on my own and conenct it to app + check if person have bought pass, i got idea on how to make it

[sleek egret]

that's not really a lock though

[dusk matrix]

Im just talking about controller rn

[sleek egret]

your controller has to talk to the lock

you know that commercial/industrial electronic locks are a big industry, right? for example, a leader in the US is https://www.hidglobal.com/solutions/access-control-systems

[summer roost]

or physically or electrically manipulate a dumb lock

[dusk matrix]

However, this doesnt really matter rn because my friend will be doing it

Yes but it can work through signal or external device

[sleek egret]

you will need to talk to you friend. look, almost certainly they're gonna install an electronic lock system of some sort. you will need to interface with that.

[summer roost]

I dunno. My gut reaction here is that I'd expect a product like this to cost millions to install, and to include an expensive ongoing support contract.

[sleek egret]

it will have it's own controller, it's own ID system, it's own everything.

[sleek egret]

nah, it costs at most a few thousand $'s per door

[dusk matrix]

Really? Its just for small gym tbh

[sleek egret]

and that's if you go balls to the wall in terms of features

[vapid jay]

Im starting to learn python today any ideas where I should start

[dusk matrix]

And for one doors, maybe in future it can scale

[sleek egret]

all these access control systems can scale

this is a solved problem. don't roll it yourself.

[dusk matrix]

I can use extrenal access system bu it needs to be configurablw

[sleek egret]

they are already configurable. and in more ways than you can imagine.

[summer roost]

If you're not finding other products in this space, one very plausible explanation is that this is a pain in the ass space to be in. I've only ever heard of systems like this for large networks with tons of access points. This seems like overkill for a single door, especially when you factor in support (what happens when it breaks and everyone is locked out?)

[sleek egret]

there is an overhead of a thousand $ or so per location for the controlling computer. but that can be amortized if it does other things.

[summer roost]

for smaller spaces, I suspect there's a reason pretty much everyone goes with access cards or RFID key fobs rather than custom apps and NFC.

[sleek egret]

honestly though, I don't see how building your own lock thing could possibly be cheaper

[vapid jay]

anyone?

[dusk matrix]

Ye there are many things to consider thats true, but rn i think using external access lock + writing app will be good

[sleek egret]

building your own would cost $100's of thousands MINIMUM.

[summer roost]

that's not on topic for this channel. Try asking in #python-discussion

[sleek egret]

I don't think you're getting my point. they've already written the app

[dusk matrix]

Oh but my customers wants to have custom app :/

[sleek egret]

unlikely

I fail to see how a local gym needs anything "custom" for building access control

I mean, what are they gonna do, have biometric access based on sweat glands?

[dusk matrix]

This guy wants to make it able to open even at night, i tbink it unsecure asf but its not my problem really

[sleek egret]

how is that in any way custom?

[dusk matrix]

In ralking about custom app

[summer roost]

your customers seem to want 2 features:

1. An app that their customers can use to make purchases
2. An electronic lock that unlocks for customers who are current on their bills

(1) might need to be custom, but there's no reason that (2) needs to be.

[dusk matrix]

He wants to have some custom features in owner panel

[sleek egret]

there are dozens of companies in the electronic lock space. they have been doing this for decades now. they have every configuration and customization option you can imagine. and more.

[sleek egret]

ok, have fun

[summer roost]

I'd expect that it would be easy enough to find an electronic lock that lets you remotely update its idea of which accounts are and aren't authorized to unlock it. In fact, I think that's the minimum feature that every networked electronic lock has.

[sleek egret]

they partially compete on how many different ways you can control access

[trail jewel]

i want to be a game developer, what C should i learn. C++ or C#

[buoyant seal]

Which one u enjoy more to work with 🙂 (and check amount of jobs nearby to you for both languages just to be sure)

[undone dust]

hey!

Look i like coding but on the other hand i like to take care of economical states for ex partnerships, clients, or investors for the company

[sleek egret]

business would be fun if it weren't for those pesky customers

[hearty island]

rejected from oracle, but it was for a position i knew wouldn’t work

something something communication specialist intern

i thought it sounded a little bit like project management so i applied

[sleek egret]

I think you could use ChatGPT to do that job

[hearty island]

haha

i think it fits marketing majors more

[sleek egret]

sure. and most of them will be replaced by chatgpt

or chatgpt lookalikes

[hearty island]

yes

[sleek egret]

consider cohen the barbarian. he exemplifies the mantra that "an old barbarian is a deadly barbarian"

[hearty island]

wdym

[sleek egret]

well, given what a barbarian does for a living... to survive to old age means he must be very Very VERY good at it.

[hearty island]

oh yeah true

[sleek egret]

https://discworld.fandom.com/wiki/Cohen

[hearty island]

damnit, oracle has a product management internship but it’s only for mba ppl

[grim summit]

I just noticed that there are some jobs where they dont require you to have a degree in some posts. but in others they do...

for example:
doesn't specify you need a degree
https://discord.com/jobs/6367013002

here it does
https://discord.com/jobs/6600857002

[spark cobalt]

Probably because one is more theoretically involved and more knowledge intensive than the other

[smoky quest]

it doesn't mean they wouldn't filter out people without degrees either.
It's not like it's a law or something

[summer roost]

nor does it mean they'd necessarily reject someone without a degree for the job posting that says that a degree is required.

[smoky quest]

definitely!

[vapid jay]

if you worked for a super prestigious robotics company for 4 years as an engineer, but still got paid like a person right out of college(OR WAY LESS) even after promotions, what would you do? time to leave?

[true radish]

Any whatsapp group for developers in Canada?

[true harness]

no raise in 4 years?

[vapid jay]

yes raise, just not market and cant afford housing

[true harness]

I don't think I have enough experience to give advice. there are a bunch of oldexperienced people that frequent this channel, though

[near ocean]

Yes i'd leave, way earlier too

[maiden cedar]

Idk if this falls under career discussion or not. But i would love to start up freelancing so that i could maybe try and pay for college. But i have zero experience and have no idea on how to. Any advice on where/how to start?

[smoky quest]

You can tackle it from both ends:

• Think about why would someone hire your services?
• What are the most demanded jobs on freelance websites?

[maiden cedar]

I plan to do coding related stuff and help ppl complete projects.

But where do i start this?

[smoky quest]

start which part?

[maiden cedar]

the freelancing. how/where do i start?

[smoky quest]

You apply to jobs on freelancing websites

[turbid bridge]

Is CS50 a good idea?

[spark cobalt]

They lean more towards web development, so if that's what you're aiming for, why not

[vague ravine]

freelancing? really

[oak basin]

hello

anyone up der

[inner wren]

@mystic holly Please don't try to ping @everyone or @here. Your message has been removed. If you believe this was a mistake, please let staff know!

[buoyant seal]

!rule 6 9 , delete, this does not belong here

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[buoyant seal]

<@&831776746206265384>

[karmic merlin]

!warn 860317069332578374 We are not an ad board. Dont try to advertise jobs here.

[inner wren]

:ok_hand: applied warning to @mystic holly.

[tranquil tusk]

Hi, before leaving think about what you want to do (reflect) and then consider where you want to do it (i.e., what company, what is your dream company or dream job). You need to review the company (and other similar companies) on LinkedIn. See what they post about, figure out what is important to them, review the people who work there (what are their job titles?) and look for "engineering-type" roles where you think you would be a good fit or could grow into them (i.e. retraining, further ed). You should try to reach out for information interviews, just gathering information and learning about "a job title" or "the company." At this stage, the information phase, you learn and you develop connections and relationships. It is not about asking for a job at this phase. After you spend time talking with people, let them know you are interested if any future roles open up.

Sorry, but it is a long response and long process. Networking takes time, it will be an investment in yourself and can result in helping you position yourself for possible opportunities where you want to be.

Consider: I like Coke? I want to protect the environment - Maybe I would learn all I could about the company, their transportation systems, their coke processing operation, and reflect on the different roles that might be there that could make me happy. For example:
HR - Hiring, training, providing services
Purchasing - Raw materials and general business processes related to all aspects for company purchases
ENGINEERING --> Production Control, Quality Control, MFG - Inventorying, Organizing, Building, Shipping
Information Systems - various internal programming needs for manufacturing process (i.e. not cutting-edge it, but the churning of business related IT stuff)

I hope this is helpful, it is a reflective process and if you take the time to do this, it can be helpful.

[buoyant seal]

it is common to jump companies for promotions/better salaries in IT. 4 years is more than enough at one place 😁

in majority cases it is the only option for proper market value salary

don't leave job, just seek second one in parallel. When secured offer, then u are good to go 🙂

feel free in parallel to resolve this problem while communicating to your tech lead/whoever you trust with in company, many be they will raise salary as it is

[white relic]

this worked out for me

[buoyant seal]

when getting interviewed in other companies, you will see also, what salary you can negotiate at the moment, it will give you more info if u really can get that much more salary

[white relic]

and if you do have another offer, but you don't particularly want to leave your current company, you can ask them to match it

[tranquil tusk]

While Money is important, it is not always just about the money. To be really happy at a job, it has to give the individual some 'inner" joy --> resonate with values, ideals and beliefs

• if you seek a job, be picky. It will result in more happiness at work and if you are happy it will show and the money will be there then too (perhaps promotions too)

[buoyant seal]

If company is underpaying below 50% of your current market salary though, those all extra things kind of can stop to work at some point.
There is limit how much you can be low balled 😁 usually

[tranquil tusk]

for sure, I just think - there are a lot of options out there. For the next one, go in with eyes wide open on the Company. And make a change that makes you Happy!

[spark cobalt]

Very HR thing to say

Pay can also show how much a company values you being there.

[tranquil tusk]

yah.. lots of HR experience here - and a Career Development Professional (CDP)

[peak halo]

Elisa is speaking in very idealistic terms, but I think it's true that since developer positions already pay quite well in general, it isn't necessarily worth sacrificing job satisfaction for added pay.

[tranquil tusk]

Yes, but they are limited in paying people to "within the salary range and / number of years to full job rate) unless promoting outside the range

[buoyant seal]

but I think it's true that since developer positions already pay quite well in general
that depends on country you know. It can be true for US because salaries are high and having less % salary difference between jobs/companies (like what maximum, 50% salary difference between jobs in different companies at most for senior ranks for example?)
in third world countries difference between senior salaries can be 500% (for middle salaries difference can be quite huge, like 300%+ too)

[near ocean]

The OP mentions they've been severely underpaid for 4+ years and there was no mention of job satisfaction or other mitigating factors
They should find new work ASAP imho

[tranquil tusk]

I suppose we need more context -- What Country are they in?

• I'm in North America, and before changing jobs (if at all possible) I would recommend doing a deep reflection/ investigation and then go apply to what will make you happy.
  --> No sense applying to whatever and then being in the same boat or worse!

[buoyant seal]

working in just in place is also potentially harmful to skills. changing company is getting exposed to new stuff as well, shaping you into specialist with more broad experience. You will fill gaps in your knowledge/skills that you are missing from being up to date with current market demands
Otherwise if staying too long in one company, you can find at its leave in 10 years, that your skills are severely outdated, and u used SVN at most instead of git like everyone else today 😁

[spark cobalt]

It goes both ways... The issue here is his spending power is decreasing over the years.

Also it's probably questionable to the sustainability of the company if they have to low-ball an incredibly skilled job to the point they can't even afford housing

[brittle thorn]

People would probably leave if they can in that case and they should

[spark cobalt]

Yep

[brittle thorn]

No sense to remain loyal if loyalty isn't rewarded

[near ocean]

OP should have left years ago, the next best time is now

[spark cobalt]

When we cut through to it, no amount of core company principles (which is a load of horseshit anyways) can justify him staying

[brittle thorn]

Some corporations have loyalty bonus ....annual raise

[still condor]

Isn't that still much lower than just changing a job?

(at least for IT people)

[acoustic trout]

hey

[near ocean]

Hello this is #career-advice and this is offtopic, please move to the appropriate channel

[brittle thorn]

I think it maybe for all

[sleek egret]

greetings all

[summer roost]

that depends on a lot of different factors - I'd be careful about making a blanket statement. It is true that the easiest way to get a large raise is usually switching jobs, and it's also true that someone who is being paid well below the market rate is likely to benefit most from switching jobs.

[sweet tiger]

who have python server boost tool (with nitro tokens) or boost bot discord?

with capmonster.cloud requirements:(

[summer roost]

a) Boost bots are a scam. You're likely to get your server hijacked or your account stolen.
b) Even if they weren't a scam, they'd still be against Discord's rules, and so against rule 5 of our #rules
c) This channel's topic is jobs and careers, so this question is off-topic.

[hearty island]

can’t wait for my interview for project management

[sleek egret]

I have learned to wait for anything