career-advice

[ivory sluice]

this is not a swe ladder, more accounting/finance

no, the irony is i have no team under me now lol. similar to my coworker who is "manager of x" but has no direct reports

but we will eventually expand this department and i'll have underlings

but it's gonna be a game changer for my resume

and i can finally update my linkedin to a flashier role

[spark cobalt]

[ivory sluice]

normally though, this is correct.

[dreamy spade]

Exactly how I felt about some of my courses in college

[smoky quest]

Congrats!

[dreamy spade]

What is it like being a freelance web developer? Where do you find work?

[true harness]

i think @harsh jolt is that? they do freelance something. my understanding is that it's usually much easier to freelance once you've got work experience already

[spark cobalt]

At least if you're freelancing as a new developer, it'll be hard to make a sustainable living from it. It wouldn't be surprising if you could get any work, especially from local family-owned companies.

Also since we last talked, you don't have any projects that would compel people to invest into you for building websites for them.

[ivory sluice]

the r/webdev subreddit has a wide range of experiences and anecdata you can read through

you'll see some superstars making $$$ because they managed to secure a pipeline of clients thru referrals and are able to charge high hourly rates, and others making very modest wages and scrounging for work

it's also common to start out as a regular W-2 employee and then start doing contracting on the side or eventually full-time and all your previous work experience is a network available for you to make yourself known for referrals and opportunities

just need to make sure you're not stealing business from your current employer while you're employed

i think it's apt to describe any kind of freelance work as a blend of entrepreneurship and salesmanship on top of the technical skill itself

[dreamy spade]

Thanks for the resourceful information

[harsh jolt]

I do indeed but I've been freelancing for over 20 years now and work tends to find me through recommendations these days.

[dreamy spade]

Work finds you eh? That’s awesome.

Usually it’s the other way around.

[true harness]

meatballs doesn't work for the man

[true harness]

got to the second stage

[knotty drum]

What does stack mean for python? I thought it was a webdev thing if you make both front end and backebd

Is it like knowing a set of libraries like pandas and Numpy?

[dreamy spade]

Is this what you’re looking for? https://www.javatpoint.com/stack-in-python#:~:text=A stack is a linear,Undo feature in the editor.

If an experienced developer such as a senior got laid off, How long would it take them to find another job as a senior software developer? Would it take them the same amount of time as a graduate with no experience to land a job or faster?

[spark cobalt]

Much faster.

For reference, 70% of people who got laid off in the past year were able to get a job within 3 months.

[knotty drum]

I dont think so, this is a type of data structure and the people above were talking about learning different programming stacks for work

Like obscure stacks and such

[delicate bane]

yep yep. much much faster. they are usually getting recruiters contacting them all the time too

[delicate bane]

pandas, numpy, a data viz library (plotly ftw), maybe a couple ML ones depending on your role would generally be the "PyData Stack" which you see used in DA and DS roles.

python, in web dev, is used as a backend language.

[delicate bane]

first, congrats mina.

second, you are just like one of the clinical stakeholders i work with. her title is "manager of [ABC]" too but she hasnt had any direct reports under her since shes started at the company (which might change this year however). but our running joke that we have is "oh yeah [XXX] and her team will get it done". and shes always like "yes my team of me, myself, and i" 💀

its funny bc she gets A LOT of stuff done so sometimes peeps from other teams that dont know assume she actually does have a team due to her title

[ivory sluice]

honestly management is not my strong suit, so that sounds like a dream. so long as she doesn't work more than say.. 45 hours a week

[delicate bane]

sometimes she ends up working too much but then she usually takes off friday and just lets people know

[ivory sluice]

4 x 10 yo let's go please

[delicate bane]

[ivory sluice]

my boss seems to like the idea of really hustling mon-thurs and then going easy on fridays, so i've kind of adapted to that schedule

[delicate bane]

i think i like that

[delicate bane]

she has a teenager so they can take care of themselves a bit.

[delicate bane]

oh also for work. she works with a couple project manager peers so she leans heavily on them sometimes, especially if we hire on clinical contractors for SME work

maybe that could be an option for you

[ivory sluice]

the company has big dreams but not the biggest budget to match. we shall see

[delicate bane]

understandable

[karmic token]

my boss seems to like the idea of really hustling mon-fri

[ivory sluice]

lol

[karmic token]

i have not adapted to that schedule and instead do what I'm paid to do

[delicate bane]

real bruh moments

[full kestrel]

Anyone knows Discord.py?? like does anybody know to make an inventory system?? If u do then we r hiring for discord.py devs!! please ping me if u r interested!!

[lament ocean]

Can anybody advise which 5 frameworks I should keep in my skill list? I know Django, Flask and CherryPy are always in the discussion. But looking for help.

[cerulean drift]

mostly within 1 month

[near ocean]

Why would you only keep a set of 5? You should list all tech youre familiar with, but by familiar i dont mean "have heard of" if you built something with it, list it

[spark cobalt]

Oh really

I would assume most hiring processes took at least a couple week. That's quite a lot of expedited hiring processes for these laid off people if this is true.

[spark cobalt]

!rules 6 9

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[cerulean drift]

just after quitting my job, I get interviews after applying new jobs. so they will update a week later after the interview. that's why it's fast

[spark cobalt]

Gotcha, good to know

Thanks

[gritty rivet]

It can mean almost anything depending on the context. Python and webdev aren't mutually exclusive either. Is there a sentence from a job listing you are trying to interpret?

[lament ocean]

I was looking for learning since there are too many. I know Flask and Tensor flow, little bit of Django and FastApi but looking for the first 5 I should start with then increase more eventually.

[near ocean]

That depends on what you want to do in your career, no point learning django if you dont want to do webdev

[tough hound]

How did you guys kinda figure out what area you wanted to work in?? I'd like to make a job out of it one day maybe in a conservation or environmental place :]

[near ocean]

Still haven't 😔
Worked at a fintech and a gambling services provider so far, still not sure what area i wanna focus on or which industry i want to work in

[quartz aspen]

How to show you might be a multimillion company in security industry yet you shouldn't let non-IT people send emails: a few days ago we got an email that company is changing their banking info...
Today we got an info from yet another person from the company that no, it wasn't a fraud, it was a legit announcement. 🤦

Also, for a company who's supposedly American and posts everywhere that their HQ is in the US, of course their banking info is for Israel...

(Wiki in Hebrew has always listed their HQ as in Israel, tho. They only tried to make themselves look American for English-speaking world... Until today...
Although I don't know their previous banking details, so idk)

[buoyant seal]

• at computer science pascal tasks i completed during school on sheer intuition of copy pasting and tweaking small stuff until it worked, it inspired me i can do more.
• Spent childhoold at PC, decided, i would not mind spending adulthood at PC as well.
• And from childhood was always high-level PC user capable to solve problems on my own. (hehe, reinstalling OS, writing macroses)
• at 11th year of a school, tried to make a combo of subjects i can do and with which i can apply to university: Algebra + Computer Science made choice for IT, other subjects did not make any useful combo i liked 😁
• during university always succeeded in programming subjects (not that succeeded in math though)
• Everything contributed to believe in myself, i can do everything in IT, as long as i put enough time.
• Had secret desire for web sites stuff, got lucky having first job as backend dev, it was succesful one and i was responsible for infrastructure too => the choice was made to be backend/devops guy.
• everything was last minute decision basically, but made based on strengths i had and what i liked. Kind of all you need for IT, is... education / enough spent time / intuition to dig problem solutions on your own, encountering inspirations where u should seek solutions next / persistence to keep going despite encountered difficulties (they always happen)

P.S. as for exact domain of job, i don't care which one it is as long as it is not preferably: Web scrapping, Meta verse, Web3, Crypto NFT stuff. Well, and preferably not casino and pron industry as well 😁 Regarding last domain may be it is not that bad though. Basically, just having only black list of domains i would be prefering not touching. Crypto startups under high suspicion as well, but not decided regarding them.

[stuck turret]

just passing by.. the hero that doesnt wear cape xD we all need ❤️

[delicate bane]

i find that international companies do this more often than you would think. ive seen that too

[quartz aspen]

Like half or more companies working with security are Israeli, I know. I just added that bit in case people didn't know that - because without context, "of course their banking info is for Israel" might sound weird or even like a conspiracy theory

[delicate bane]

ahh no thats helpful for those in the non-security world. i just meant the bit where some international companies try to look American

[near ocean]

I used to not have preferences about industry, really what i want is to work on cool, shiny looking, modern stuff
Lately, I've been having second thoughts however and im not sure if its because of the industry im in or the old ass janky tech we use

My mom had concerns about the industry when i mentioned i had an offer
Right now im looking at biotech stuff, companies like canonical, and worrying that i picked the wrong place to work at...

[delicate bane]

old janky ass tech does sounds like a pain to work with. especially if it breaks more often than not and you are spending most of your time putting out fires rather than building

[dreamy spade]

I am filling out an application and I don't understand what this column is asking for.

[buoyant seal]

oh, and i don't want to work in ML related industry preferably. I may be wishing to make at attempt and dive into it, but in general sceptical due to additional magnitude times difficulties of proper having infrastructure as a code in this field.

[delicate bane]

if theres an opportunity, i might also switch industries

[delicate bane]

what, you dont want to face complexity hell?

most of the time you will need to go back to the DS and tell them to build a simpler model for production

[near ocean]

I also need to pick a spec or deep dive somewhere, both jobs I've had are very different
Stress of not going deep enough is getting to me

[buoyant seal]

that is not how DevOps culture works 😛 i want to be able owning code / understanding across whole project. With protecting from mistakes by automation during builds and testing and deployments

[delicate bane]

brooo @dreamy shadow and @vital wyvern had a discussion about specializing in one of the OT channels yesterday

[near ocean]

I think i caught some of it

I need to start looking into data eng 💀

[delicate bane]

its not. but you know DS do not fit the norm. maybe 1 out of 10 (maybe 1 out of 4) will be technically savvy enough to deploy their own models at a non-tech company

[delicate bane]

[dreamy shadow]

Apparently this is the "things break, please advise" week.

[near ocean]

Is that not every week

What happened, i was expecting a trauma share, this is a safe space!

[buoyant seal]

for traumas visit quora.com 🙂 or probably reddit as well

[delicate bane]

i think once i move and expand my network, hopefully i can find a new job organically

but like im looking for one passively since im not actively looking for one

[delicate bane]

sg is too busy putting out fires

thought you were psv for a moment

[near ocean]

Heh, anyway
Might be a silly question but for data eng (and loosely adjacent roles) how big of a chunk of your work is implementing new features as opposed to maintaining old ones?

I've seen stuff like this in job ads, usually described as "progression", like
At 3 months you'd do X and Y
At 6 months you'd be implementing features by yourself
At 9 months you'd be resident expert
And other recruiter/HR spam

[knotty drum]

Not really! Just the people above were discussing stacks and stacks would be beneficial to learn for your career and was interested in knowing more about it

[delicate bane]

DE can really be anything and everything. it really is company dependent on how mature their data infrastructure is. youll typically need cloud skills though for a newish role like DE.

for DS, the work is probably even more diverse since youve got all sorts of DS. some people divide them into A - analyst types and B - builder types though, and i think thats a good heuristic in many cases.

[dreamy spade]

Anybody use LinkedIn? You can see which company has either viewed or downloaded your resume when you apply for their jobs. I don’t get why companies download my resume if they are not contacting me.

[buoyant seal]

That is normal. I remember I participated in hiring processes as well. Bunch of resume was downloaded and reviewed first by boss and at least one tech person before decision was made to invite for interview.

In other companies workflow can be of different length as well... Something like first reviews recruiter, then passes down next, if accepted then interviewed

Also web scraping bots of recruiters download for their services

[true harness]

a lot of companies will just ghost you. that's kinda just how it is

[sleek egret]

most companies will ghost. they're 1) lazy, 2) don't wanna say no and 3) afraid of legal problems if they give reasons

[true harness]

probably just 1, tbh. I'm not a lawyer but saying "you weren't selected" is probably fine legally

[sleek egret]

probably but there's also #2

bottom line, there is little or no upside to telling people they're not gonna be hired

[true harness]

what's the reasoning behind 2?

[sleek egret]

so imagine there is a position to be filled

[spark cobalt]

I think it's 2 lol. HR culture is rather soft, they probably feel guilty denying thousands of people weekly since they're more empathetic

[sleek egret]

you filter 300 resumes, interview 6 people, make an offer to 1 person. that person accepts.

then a week later, before starting, that person says "I got a better offer, so long suckers!"

[true harness]

I see. so for backup

[sleek egret]

so you make an offer to the next best. that guy says, "sorry, already got an offer". so you make an offer to the next one. he starts a week later.

fast forward a few weeks and it turns out he lied and doesn't know what he's doing. so you fire him and...

say 3 out of the 6 interviewed were "no hires". so now you gotta reach back into the non-interviewed list to interview more...

and these scenarios, while not the norm... aren't that rare either. I've had this shit happen before.

I mean, it should be no surprise that the people you interview are interviewing elsewhere, right?

[true harness]

yeah, that makes sense

[spark cobalt]

Didn't think of that scenario, nice

[true harness]

maybe they should make better offers then

[spark cobalt]

There'll always be a bigger fish. Just depends on how competitive the candidate is

[delicate bane]

theres a firing window too right

like an "easier" firing window

bc obv you can always fire them later

[true harness]

in the US you can just fire someone whenever

[pastel thunder]

applied:60+
2 response

[delicate bane]

yeah but theres like an HR window where theres less paperwork required

[pastel thunder]

starting to get some traction

[delicate bane]

i cant remember. im sure someone else can confirm or just say im hallucinating just like an LLM

[sleek egret]

depends on the company and location

[delicate bane]

[spark cobalt]

Also what's with all the invisible pfps. It's edgy ngl

[sleek egret]

many US states are "at will" employment. so you can fire for cause or for no reason at any time (assuming no contract or union). except for race, religion or national origin, of course (federal law).

many other states are a bit more restrictive, but nearly all allow for firing "for cause" at any time.

[delicate bane]

so I AM hallucinating. there is no window at the beginning like a "probation period"?

[sleek egret]

the real issue is (state mandated) unemployment insurance. some times of firing incur unemployment insurance costs, others do not.

[sleek egret]

in the US, legally speaking, not really. that's typically just company policy.

most larger corporations realize that there are asshat managers so they impose restrictions on when they can terminate staff.

[delicate bane]

ah its like HR restrictions

[sleek egret]

yup

[delicate bane]

i see

so only a semi-hallucination

[sleek egret]

the best kind of hallucination!

[true harness]

that's a bug

[delicate bane]

exactly like a proper AI!

[spark cobalt]

Wdym, you can intentionally set a clear PNG as pfp

[true harness]

I got an interview for the QA analyst thing 😔😔

[true harness]

well yes, but no one in this chat is doing that. except 'username' I guess, but it's not really blank

[spark cobalt]

Oh username is just doing solid color

[sleek egret]

best of luck

[delicate bane]

you dont want it? dont do it. save yourself the trouble.

[near ocean]

A job is a job

[delicate bane]

oh wait i thought this was an internship

[true harness]

an internship is an internship

[dreamy spade]

I must say that I’ve never in my life had to experience competition to such a high degree in busting the door to get inside tech.

[sleek egret]

when is an internship not a job?

[sleek egret]

you should try to gain entrance into one of the NYC selective public schools.

[true harness]

no?

[dreamy spade]

I’ve played sports as a kid, and getting a tech job is far more competitive than any sport in history

[sleek egret]

30,000 kids apply for 800 slots at stuyvesant high school.

the competition is brutal

[true harness]

i mean, sure your local team isn't competitive, but national and olympic teams are

[sleek egret]

it varies by location, a 1br can run from $1200 to $12,000 per month

the quality of a $1,200 1 br is... less than great 🙂

think slum lord building in "da hood"

[true harness]

the shower and washing machine are just the sink

[sleek egret]

lol, you're joking right?. in some of the el-cheapo apt's, I've seen toilets in the disgusting "shower". no washing machine.

[dreamy spade]

The difference between the olympics and tech is that the competition in the tech job market affects everyone’s livelihood.

[sleek egret]

there's a reason it's so cheap

[true harness]

how is that different? it's hard to make a living if you're not a national level athlete

[sleek egret]

for a decent, 1 br, you'll end up paying something between $2500 to $4000, depending on the location

[dreamy spade]

Do Olympians get paid?

[sleek egret]

oh, if it's only for a few months, just AirBnB it

[spark cobalt]

They get bonuses for medals. But typically it's through endorsements and whatnot.

[sleek egret]

you'll have a difficult time getting a 3 or 4 month lease. difficult as in next to impossible.

[spark cobalt]

Driving in NYC sounds like hell

[sleek egret]

if your office is in manhattan, you wanna be in manhattan

you don't want to drive into manhattan. as the saying goes, there are 5 million cars and 2 million parking spots

then you want to pay close attention to subway stations

crime is very low in NYC. lower than most medium-sized towns in the USA

that's an area with 25 mil people, so essentially the size of a smaller nation... you need to be more precise

jersey city isn't that bad. if you want to live in a younger, hipper area, look at hoboken

of course not

the nicer areas of manhattan is the most expensive, by far

[earnest pebble]

hello

[sleek egret]

you go girl!

[earnest pebble]

what parts of python should i learn which are essential for pme to get a job or internship

[sleek egret]

all parts. plus numpy/pandas/pytorch/etc

[peak halo]

that's not helpful. and learning python isn't mutually exclusive with learning C++

[buoyant seal]

what the hell is this advice 😁 student of CS degree, aren't you?
(and btw, today Rust replaced C++ as being most cool system language 😛)

[sleek egret]

be a gigachad

[peak halo]

please don't shitpost when people are asking for actual advice.

[earnest pebble]

i learnt the basics of C,Java,Python,SQL....and i know only the most basic tasks that can be performed using these programming languages and tools

[sleek egret]

more seriously, there are few "python" jobs. there are jobs where you use python. python, like all programming languages, is just a tool. one of many tools that any good programmer should know.

[peak halo]

it's more important that you know how to do the kinds of things the internship involves, regardless of language. and if you're looking for an internship as a CS student, your academic performance is important as well.

[earnest pebble]

i amnot a CS student

[peak halo]

are you a university student in a different major?

[earnest pebble]

I'm an ECE student

[sleek egret]

what is ECE?

[peak halo]

ah. then what I said about academic performance still applies.

[peak halo]

electric/computer engineering

[sleek egret]

close enough to CS for 95% of people

[peak halo]

you don't need to go to a top 20 university to get an internship.

[sleek egret]

you are correct. you don't have to. but it helps.

[earnest pebble]

electronics and communiaction engineering....and i am learning programming parallelly

[sleek egret]

so telecom systems?

so classes like queuing theory, graph theory, signals processing, etc?

[peak halo]

at my university, ECE was a widely-used acronym for the electrical and computer engineering major

[earnest pebble]

yeah...mostly

[sleek egret]

yes, but what about Mr.Stark's school?

[sleek egret]

then you have a lot of overlap with more rigorous CS programs

[peak halo]

right, turns out it means electronics and communication engineering for him. my point is that there's no way I could have anticipated that "ECE" meant something different to him than I thought, since my definition makes sense in this context 😛

[sleek egret]

have you taken classes in linear and nonlinear optimization, statistics, tensor calc, stochastic calc?

[earnest pebble]

no

[sleek egret]

your definition made sense to me too

[dark arrow]

interesting it usually means electronics & communication engineering here

[peak halo]

is this another US/UK divide?

[dark arrow]

oh nvm that was mentioned

[earnest pebble]

i'm from india

[sleek egret]

well, you should consider it. if you do, opportunities in ML/AI and "data science" would be available for you. also areas like quant finance.

[peak halo]

uhhh why rip?

[sleek egret]

you wanna be the guy who can say "I think we could implement that trading algo as an analog circuit to shave 30ns of response time"

🙂 (mostly joking)

[sleek egret]

I fail to see how you being from india matters, but good for you?

[earnest pebble]

i don't know properly about what to do and what to learn and how to apply for internships.....

[sleek egret]

most internships are done through your university career center

[peak halo]

then don't make statements that are most easily interpretable as xenophobic.

not until after I asked you why you just said "rip" in response to someone saying what country they're from.

[near ocean]

If youre not sure you should probably go through the basics, learn about your common (and not so common) collections available, learn about inheritance, composition, etc
You should be applying to internships throughout your learning, dont wait until you reach X point

[peak halo]

I'm not telling you that your analysis is wrong. I'm asking you to be more careful that things you say don't look racist at face value. It's not hard to say "rip, it's hard to get a job there".

[earnest pebble]

iam not saying that getting an internship here is hard... people who have a good knowledge on what to prepare for and how to apply for jobs/internships may get them esaily, i don't know the process well so i am asking what to do

[sleek egret]

well, most people here are from the west (US/EU) so are not really that familiar with how it works in India. that said, there are indians that frequent the channel. I'd suggest hanging around and asking a few more times when Indians might be awake 🙂

[earnest pebble]

we do have to compete because the one who is better is hired bay any company or org right?.... so there is competition

[sleek egret]

it's extremely difficult to correctly evaluate candidates in less than an hour. thus the accuracy of who is "better" is poor in any hiring process. thus, it is very important to learn how to present yourself in the best light.

presentation covers everything from what's on your resume/CV to how you interview (assuming you get that far)

[dark arrow]

try building contacts with seniors at your uni who have done internships

yes

[earnest pebble]

thank you

[sleek egret]

@dark arrow gives good advice

[dark arrow]

i'm a first year undergrad

?

[sleek egret]

we hired an indian-american woman first year as an intern a few years back. she was super sharp. I think she works for spacex now

no loyalty!

[dark arrow]

at my uni at least the norm is third years and sometimes second years

[sleek egret]

she was born in the US

[sleek egret]

that's the norm in the US too. though it's becoming more an more common for 1st years to seek internships

[dark arrow]

not a clue i havent looked into internships yet

[spare zinc]

hi there, how's it going? how's your work/daily route?

[near ocean]

Caffeine and anger-filled

[deft herald]

hmm. Someone needs a walk

[delicate bane]

same here

[delicate bane]

same here as well

[delicate bane]

you said all your interns leave you right? or did i also hallucinate this

[near ocean]

Its been a couple of sprints now that pretty much all tickets i touch reveal some previously unseen eldritch fuck up that somehow passed multiple rounds of testing, both qa and dev

[spare zinc]

you need to relax

[near ocean]

Its not up to me

[delicate bane]

i feel that bro. this system they have me helping maintain is straight up unmaintainable. just this past quarter, theyve had 1 P1, 3 P2s and lost a multimillion dollar contract over it. and those are just the highlights

now i know why the dev that left wanted to just blow the whole thing up

[near ocean]

At least that follows logically, we're doing somewhat ok and i dont understand why 💀

Im discovering "features" that havent worked properly in years, maybe ever

Wondering how our customers operate this thing

Im complaining too much, its been okay, just some bad luck all at once

Whats a delayed release or two

[delicate bane]

i think for me...i need to complain more since its been this way since ive started

[near ocean]

Are your people good at least? I think my team being great is whats keeping me sane

[delicate bane]

no

all the good people are like that dev that left or they are on the platform teams. well theres like 1 guy thats good but hes also been here forever and hasnt left so that makes sense

[static river]

hello, do you guys have any advice for a guy who has some knowledge about python that stopped to learn and wants to start again?

[buoyant seal]

this can be a good place to start revisioning your python knowledge back again)

[untold quest]

What am I supposed to do after learning API's

[static river]

thank you, can i also follow an online course too with this

at my previous learning journey i tried to follow a youtube course that i found

unfortunately it ended with a failure

[buoyant seal]

learning by youtube? from my biased point of view, it was destined to failure from the start 😁 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oHoXlnv-RE

[tepid shale]

haha

[static river]

lol yeah it was i can speak from experience

[dreamy spade]

I’m infuriated. I don’t get companies prefer a student as their intern instead of a graduate

This is what I get for graduating? Get exiled from internship opportunities?

[tepid shale]

very simple...they knowthey can pay much less from student and workthem harder

[zealous path]

^^^

[zealous path]

It’s either an intern that gets overworked and underpaid or an experienced (5+) years candidate that gets overworked or underpaid

[tepid shale]

the mystery i want to know is why do incompetent non technical people manage tecnical people

the only answer i have is social skills (aka bullshitting and politics)

somthing techies have a hard time since they prefer systems that work and are efficient

[dreamy spade]

I need an internship. At least one because my suspicion is that the reason why I haven’t been selected for an interview is because other applicants have internship experience on their resume so I need one as well to compete effectively in the job market.

[zealous path]

Simply don’t be American
🇬🇧😎🇬🇧

[dreamy spade]

I’m Canadian

[zealous path]

Simply don’t be North American

[true harness]

you don't need an internship. it just makes you a better candidate. now that you've graduated, you're not eligible for most internships. you'll need to supplement your resume with other things to make you more attractive

[zealous path]

Easiest would be to build a portfolio of projects

[dreamy spade]

My resume format shows 2 projects and 4 past work experiences. Do you think I should remove all work experience to add more space in the project section of my resumes. Perhaps 6 projects?

[sleek egret]

internships are for students. the end.

[true harness]

i suggested to keep 1 work experience

[sleek egret]

if you're not a student, it's just called a "job" 🙂

[pastel thunder]

recieved fastest reject yet,
i applied, went to check if my candidature is being reflected in my profile, and there you go i saw this

less than 7 seconds, LITERALLY

[dreamy spade]

It was probably automatic by the system. That’s what happened to me as well.

[sleek egret]

TIL that "candidature" was a word

[delicate bane]

books >>> youtube

[delicate bane]

automatic test: "does candidate have grad degree? no -> rejection"

[pastel thunder]

actually the only thing i lacked were some tableau etc and some exp.

[true harness]

they probably just weren't accepting any more candidates or something ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[pastel thunder]

yeah

[dreamy shadow]

books >>> white papers >>> structured guides >>> medium articles >>> youtube

[true harness]

the number of projects you have doesn't matter, the quality does. it's all about 👏 demonstrated 👏 skils 👏

[dreamy shadow]

WELL, I'm back to missing dependencies, aka Square 1. All it took was 3 days.

[zealous path]

😐

[zealous path]

🤔

[dreamy shadow]

Youtube has these articles videos about "can you spot propaganda" but removes tools to spot them. (Dislike count, channel able to delete/block comments)

[sleek egret]

videos are great for making you think you understand something when you don't really understand it.

[zealous path]

Articles>books

A book is outdated to moment it’s published

[sleek egret]

you can test this by 1) watching a video on some programming technique, 2) feeling like you understand it and then, 3) trying to use the technique and failing.

[true harness]

not really an issue when the concepts haven't changed in like 50 years (which is pretty short, compared to like, calc, CS is like 5 times younger)

[dreamy shadow]

Frankly a lot of things hasn't changed. like how DS is just statistics given a new face mask

[sleek egret]

software development changes vveeerrrryyyyyy ssssssslllllllllooooooowwwwwwlllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyy

you guys would feel right at home with most of the tools I used 30 years ago

[buoyant seal]

in DevOps engineering and frameworks stuff is fastly changing
in software development... things haven't really changed for the last 20 years at least ( #web-development message ) most books i link are 20 years old in general

[dreamy shadow]

I also read somewhere that most companies execute agile wrong, hence why it's counter-productive in some places.

[sleek egret]

most companies execute software development wrong. mostly because software developers are highly resistant to any sort of process

good or bad

[pseudo bone]

Hello everyone , i have a question. I work in a big company and they have a portal to apply for internal job postings my question is. Will my manager be notified if i apply for new jobs within the company? Are there things i should keep in mind?

[sleek egret]

that would depend on your company

why not just ask?

[true harness]

well if they didn't want their manager knowing, asking would probably let them know

[delicate bane]

idk what you want me to say im not going to flip those arrows

[delicate bane]

you use books to learn more fundamental concepts. not the latest JS web framework thats just been released - "magic_bullet.js"

sorry javascript. MagicBullet.js

[rain glacier]

any1 working at northrop grumman here?

[true harness]

what would you ask if someone said they did work at northrop grumman?

[zealous path]

Can I have job

[rain glacier]

how's work life balance if your position is in person

[analog sun]

Probably depends on what side of the business they are in

[rain glacier]

yeah that's why i'm asking

[analog sun]

Office hours could be as low as 35 hours a week to 50+
Manufacturing side could be 40 to 60+

Or they are all super long hours crazy and everyone works 80 hours a week

[true harness]

would be a great question to ask in an interview

[analog sun]

Plus I'm sure there are variations depending on the project stage

[ivory sluice]

hello this channel is for career discussion so please stay on topic
eta: purged messages

[sleek egret]

at least in manufacturing, you get paid overtime at 1.5x your hourly rate

[delicate bane]

is the overtime worth it

[jaunty field]

hello to everyone here, im a student who has been working with python, now learning SQL, which other things do y'all recommend me to learn, want to go into back end

[true harness]

the site roadmap.sh is fairly well regarded

[jaunty field]

ohh oki oki thx

[buoyant seal]

1. https://roadmap.sh/backend
2. recommending books about software engineering
   #web-development message
3. check this full Python roadmap https://github.com/amaargiru/pyroad
4. may be also checking this backend roadmap https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/blob/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg

[jaunty field]

woww, thx

[true harness]

😳 i can see other candidates' code for the takehome assignment, because they told people to fork a gh repo with the prompt

2 haven't started. 1 is using camelCase

[abstract depot]

Hey there I got a really big question so Covid really screwed my entire High school career up I got taken out from covid like 6-10 times so my hopes for College are really falling apart so if I discover university is not going to happen do you guys think coding boot camps could work to become a software engineer. Or maybe even potentially get a job at FAANG (Ik FAANG is a strech)

[delicate bane]

not camelCase 🐫

[worldly ridge]

@buoyant seal hey darkwind, you've helped me with some questions in the past months, wanted to let you know i got accepted into a training program for devops engineers at a good firm, so thanks for the help

[buoyant seal]

🎉 😁 Party hard https://gifdb.com/images/thumbnail/albus-dumbledore-dancing-89g065j74ocdlkln.gif

[summer roost]

keep trying to make college happen. Your situation isn't unique, covid was disruptive for tons of high school students. You're probably not as screwed as you think.

[true harness]

my high school ~experience~ was quite messed up from covid. i had a pretty bad junior year, but i got into a college (honestly, not my first choice, but it's not that bad). i would highly recommend trying to get into a college. it will be much much easier than other ways to get into the field

[delicate bane]

congrats bud — thats awesome

[pine sleet]

Similar story. Missed out on sophomore year. Couldn't make the connections I wanted to :(
Still ended up getting into a pretty good college so, it worked out

[summer roost]

My impression is that's pretty much everyone's high school story from the pandemic. Everyone feels screwed. Which sorta means no one is. You're probably no more screwed than your competition, on average.

[true harness]

"if everyone is [screwed], no one is"

[vapid jay]

more than 9 hours trying to do chatgpt on my telegram bot but i can't does anyone can help me?

[abstract depot]

Idk man I’m running a 2.9 idk what uni gonna let me in lol

[summer roost]

plenty? There's unis that don't reject any applicants (or at least, not on the basis of GPA)

[peak halo]

=3 is already the "good" range under normal circumstances. covid can only lower the expectation floor.

and there are other things you can do to make yourself appealing to admissions councilors. think of things that can break the tie in your favor if the councilor is looking at 3 applications with equivalent grades and standardized test scores.

[summer roost]

you don't have to be the best possible candidate. Just better than the other applicants. If you think your GPA is too low, good standardized test scores can go a long way to make up for it. Extracurriculars can help, a good application essay can help, etc. If there's core science or math classes that you didn't do well in, you may be able to retake them, or take an equivalent class at a community college to offset them

[delicate bane]

it be true

[dreamy shadow]

Nvm, read above.

[true harness]

it is what it is

[summer roost]

https://admissions.psu.edu/faq/test-optional/is-there-a-minimum-grade-point-average-for-applicants/ for instance

[abstract depot]

well I've done band all my high school life as well as I am VP of a business club so I mean extra curriculars I should be good on

I guess my best bet is to start looking for around me just gotta find one lol

thx for the pep talk btw guys 🙂

I think the most annoying part about college is the fact that I really have an overall GPA of 3.196 but Colleges are counting my classes that arent extra so band and business classes just dont exist

[dreamy spade]

GPA standards are ridiculous.

[true harness]

there's no such thing as a "GPA cutoff", at least for college admissions. in the US, school systems are way too different to impose such a limit. instead, what they do is compare you to your peers at the school you're at.

though i've seen internships that ask for stuff like "3.0 gpa minimum", but that's super attainable, and most are like >2.0.

[abstract depot]

yeah I guess I just gotta hope for the best

[true harness]

it's understandable. you want good candidates and GPA is strongly correlated with academic ability

[abstract depot]

yeah thats the big issue with me

my actual academics is really good its just my finals are worth 20% of my overall grade and I suck at test taking especially when the school system in my area treats it like an SAT and only give like 30 mins to do an 80 question test so I mess up and then it tanks my grade

[grim osprey]

Hello all,,
Im still college student and willing to be a AI developer..
What is path to be AI developer..Advices and recommendations plz..

[peak halo]

what is your major? and in what country?

[dreamy spade]

I’m really happy that I graduated

[true harness]

i can't tell if that's sarcastic

[cobalt moat]

if AI is continually getting better at debugging and writing code, are programmers actually going to be needed?

doesnt take a software engineer to ask an AI how to setup an environment and then write a program to copy and paste

[smoky quest]

In theory, if we extrapolate that much, then humans aren't even needed anymore at all.
In practice, software engineers will still be needed for a long time

[delicate bane]

@peak halo is this worth another pin or should we wait. honestly i dont think a pin for this specific topic would help much. due to what you said previously about the need to play down fears

[cobalt moat]

how are they needed?

[peak halo]

I work in language AI. as far as the next few decades are concerned, AIs won't be able to fully perform the work of any developers. Though they are likely to increase developer productivity.

[grim osprey]

Sri lankan ...
What we call college mostly equal to high school in other countries

[cobalt moat]

why cant an AI do what a software engineer can?

[peak halo]

because there does not an exist an AI that can do most (let alone all) of a developer's responsibilities better than a human.

[cobalt moat]

yes but the capabilities are rapidly growing

it can already write most small programs

[peak halo]

"rapidly"? ChatGPT's theoretical underpinnings depend on decades of progress. and it requires obscene amounts of training data and computation power to create.

It might be that we're in the middle of a sharp climb in the progress curve. but we might also be approaching the limit of what we can reasonably accomplish under existing AI paradigms. Time will tell.

[cobalt moat]

i should have gone into med

[peak halo]

inb4 ChatGPT replaces doctors

[delicate bane]

i was in med. glad i switched to DS

[delicate bane]

my friend literally just sent me this btw https://www.nabla.com/

@cobalt moat DS is data science

[peak halo]

I can't talk about what I do professionally now that I've signed every NDA. But when I was in academia, I was working on different projects AI-assisted medicine.

[delicate bane]

noice. i work with clinical stakeholders in my day job

[quasi relic]

how should i start to learn python

[cobalt moat]

there is always going to be human doctors, they can get heavily assistest by AI/robots for procedures and diagnosis

[peak halo]

why are you willing to say that for doctors, but not developers

[delicate bane]

anyway, like stel said. AI isnt going to completely replace developers anytime soon

[cobalt moat]

because i can build a website from nothing but chat gpt with no experience at all in about 30 minutes

[peak halo]

you've just admitted that there's still a human involved.

[delicate bane]

and do you think a developer would get paid so highly if it was this easy?

(hint: that website may or may not break when you start scaling it)

[cobalt moat]

but they dont need a computer science degree or a 100k+ salary

[delicate bane]

let alone all the services a modern website might need

[cobalt moat]

I still think in only a few years an AI could do all of it with minor guidance

[delicate bane]

ok. everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[peak halo]

someone who doesn't already know anything about programming won't be able to use ChatGPT to do any of the things companies pay six figures for. Like I said earlier, AI tools can increase developer productivity. But you seem pretty convinced of your predictions. We'll see.

[cobalt moat]

im just trying to understand other perspectives, i value all opinions

[delicate bane]

even when you have two professionals that work with AI in their day jobs. /shrug

[summer roost]

people have said that every decade since the 1960's.

they've been wrong every time so far. Are they right this time? I'm skeptical.

[cobalt moat]

60s didnt have quantum computing AND the amount of human labor has been drastically decreasing to robots

[peak halo]

if you didn't already know, ChatGPT has absolutely nothing to do with quantum computing.

[cobalt moat]

i know... but quantum computing would allow larger training sets

[peak halo]

the bottleneck for training set size is not the computer. it's the actual existence of the data.

and whether or not that training data requires manual annotation.

[harsh river]

Accurate and factual data at that

[cobalt moat]

have the ai train on its own data

[dark arrow]

i believe thats an actual problem people are worried about, at some point a significant amount of content on the internet will be generated by language models which puts it in a feedback loop

[summer roost]

before quantum computing allows larger training sets, we'll have to reinvent pretty much all of computer science, for what it's worth. Quantum computers are much worse at running classical algorithms than classical computers are. We'll basically have to wait until we have quantum computers, and then start over reinventing AI from the ground up.

[cobalt moat]

we still have the math and the data, just port the code

[summer roost]

that isn't how quantum computers work.

[harsh river]

a 2012 study by researchers at the University of Maryland found that only about one in four articles on the internet can be considered truly accurate and trustworthy.

[delicate bane]

people are talking about figuring out systems for human-verified content lol. when AI creates new problems to solve.

[summer roost]

quantum computers cannot run classical algorithms as efficiently as classical computers can. They run an entirely different type of algorithm much better - but we need to invent quantum algorithms to replace classical algorithms.

[peak halo]

and their article was one of the three, thereby creating a paradox that sucked all of Maryland into the void.

[harsh river]

Since 2012 this ratio has only gotten worse and at a scary rate at that

[dark arrow]

baltiless

[harsh river]

Took me 20 seconds to be able to send that other message only for steelercus to steal my Lightning

[peak halo]

I'm always ready to criticize Maryland.
(though UofMD does have a very good computer science program.)

[harsh river]

Im just waiting for the inversion: “systems for detecting fraudulent traffic would begin to regard bot traffic as real and human traffic as fake.”

I’ve been trying to find a study I had read where researchers had crawled the internet and found that only 1-2% of the things they had found were factual and real

Out of millions of places crawled

[delicate bane]

speaking of quantum, my friend just applied for a phd program. theyll be looking at the intersection of quantum computing and AI

he showed me this, which is pretty neat if anyone is actually interested in going into this hyper niche: https://pennylane.ai/qml/whatisqml.html

[true harness]

i'm a little concerned my solution for this take home assignment is too complex 🤔. i tried to make it easily scalable for the general version of the problem, but it seems the other candidates just have a more simple solution for just the problem statement. i also added tests and CI, but like, is it too much? 🤔

[forest kestrel]

looks interesting

[summer roost]

I think I wouldn't worry about what other candidates did. You shouldn't have been able to see that, anyway, and the whole point of a take-home assignment is to see how you approach a task.

[true harness]

that's probably reasonable 😩🥴😬

[rapid pebble]

Hello, everyone!

I'm currently taking the Python Developer Course with the goal of becoming a Python + Django Backend Developer.

I see that ZTM does not offer any courses in Django. So, I wanted to ask what courses did you guys take (or would recommend that I take) after finishing the Python Course?

[smoky quest]

I went through a degree.

You may be interested by some of the roadmaps on https://roadmap.sh/

[zealous topaz]

if you are interviewer hiring for junior position, and testing on 2 interviewee (one being 0 year experience and the other being 1~2 year experience but both has same skill set), would interview questions be different even though the position and tasks they will be doing are exact same? If so, why?

[smoky quest]

questions wouldn't change.
The interview process is made for the role, not the candidates. Although sometimes you want to clear out specific points with them

[summer roost]

They'd be mostly the same, though for the one with some experience I'd also be asking questions that probe that experience.

The sit down and code something for me part would be the same for both, the tell me about yourself part would likely lead down different paths and towards different conversations based on their different past experiences.

[smoky quest]

Having a consistent set of questions also allow better comparison between candidates and to avoid biases

[silk lintel]

what are the common questions we get asked in interview process

[knotty pilot]

how hard is it to find a job for a python programmed that specializes in AI?

[graceful mason]

do you have an AI related degree?

[knotty pilot]

no, but I want to start learning it

[graceful mason]

AI is very academic so you're best off getting a degree

[knotty pilot]

wdym

[spark cobalt]

It's extremely theoretical and beyond just knowing Python. That meaning, you can be a god at Python and still be unable to understand (much less implement) rudimentary AI/ML stuff.

It common for AI/ML roles to only consider Masters/PhDs.

[knotty pilot]

i want to learn machine learning

since it is a kinda new thing and it is popular recently

[spark cobalt]

ML has existed for centuries.

[chrome summit]

You need the mathematical/statistical background via formal education

[knotty pilot]

yeah, but it got popular recently

[spark cobalt]

You can self learn ML, but you likely won't be considered for a position within this space without formal education.

[white relic]

even more so than an average software job

[knotty pilot]

i just checked there are no vacancies about ML in my entire town

nvm found 2 but 1 needs php other is lead dev

[white relic]

php+ML... that's a new one for me

[knotty pilot]

1 vanacy is "programming".

[spark cobalt]

Probably just implementing models or something. Not like creating them or anything.

[knotty pilot]

and like 40 vacancies about cars

[spark cobalt]

I wonder how common PHP for backend stuff is still...

[white relic]

sounds like you don't live in a tech center
or, any large city, tbh

[knotty pilot]

I live in... Belgorod... a city with ~300k people, that is a Russian city between Ukraine...

And because of the situation some companies left Russia, some left this city

[white relic]

Ah... Yeah that also makes sense

[knotty pilot]

i found 5 vacancies in Moscow, and like 3 vacancies in cities i've never heard of

So ig i won't find a job or i'll work remotely

[true harness]

you can look up "behavioral interview questions". there will also be technical questions

[rigid oar]

Hello everyone!
My teacher asked me to understand a job, and ask people who does this job for details. So I need someone who is doing the programming job to help me complete this homework, please fill the form I provide. Some questions in the form maybe too private for you, just ignore it. Not every question are required.
The link will bring you to Google Form:bit.ly/3FrgdsJ
Original link:docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSf_z7SEiUm35sZ4O6oQNcjGBhVOIhNJunaVoFGsv2aN7qDGTg/viewform?usp=pp_url&entry.1471573834=Work+time(like+Monday+to+Friday+8:00~17:00):%0AThings+you+do+for+this+job:%0AIncome(a+range+is+okay+like+15k~30k+USD):%0ABenefits:%0AOther...
Thank you so much!

[buoyant seal]

good idea to relocate then. I can recommend for example Novosibirsk as a cheap for living town with a lot of technical jobs.
Petersburg and Moscow are of course other attractive choices, but they are way more expensive towns to live in
P.S. as downside Novosibirsk is pretty cold town

[knotty pilot]

well, my town is small so petersburg and moscow are way too busy for me. and i barely found any ml vacancies on hh,ru

[buoyant seal]

What can i say except don't make your life harder for yourself, relocate everywhere where it is necessary across the country.
It is very easy to move across towns in same country... (in comparison to the size of troubles of relocating to another country 😆 )
You don't need foregn passport, you know native language, you don't need visa, you don't need to learn beraucracy of another country

[knotty pilot]

yeah i am thinking that i will probably do distance work

[buoyant seal]

if you are junior, don't get hopes much for that. it is common for juniors to start working in office first.
remote is more for middle and higher ranks, people already with experience who proved themselves being able to work independently

[knotty pilot]

i want to specialize in AI but there are no offices about AI

[buoyant seal]

have you checked whole Russia regarding that?

[knotty pilot]

i checked hh.ru

[buoyant seal]

well, you know, with foreign companies leaving Russia and problems to access proper server hardware, it is probably not very needed direction in Russia.

[knotty pilot]

what direction is needed then .-.

[buoyant seal]

2564 Android
2315 backend
2265 devops
1833 vanacies for frontend
1559 C++
1223 C#
still needed Ios? weird with Apple complications in russia. 1392 Ios devs.
451 Data science
298 Machine Learning

Basically, Web development is very popular, Android development very very popular, Desktop development too
Data science and ML exist but in way less proportions
Those numbers of me googling those phrases in hh.ru

[knotty pilot]

so desktop is the most optimal for me?

[buoyant seal]

web, android or desktop i would say. Any option is fine, depends on your preferences

[knotty pilot]

ow, but i wished to become ai developer, guess I'll have to be desktop

[buoyant seal]

Well, machine learning still exist in 298 vacancies... you can choose for start specialization most close related to it

Backend development -> Data Engineering are kind of very important for Machine Learning
Backend -> DevOps -> MLOps

then you will leave yourself a room to transltiion to ML later

[knotty pilot]

what do i need to learn to become backend dev

[buoyant seal]

#career-advice message

also we can see that 738 vanacies are related to Data engineering still available. Make it as your goal as most closest related specialization to ML
it would be easier to reach Data engineering from Backend first though probably, in any case those vanacies share a lot of same tech and skills

[knotty pilot]

how do road maps even work

[buoyant seal]

There are even vanacies requriing backend/data enginerring at the same time at hh.ru 🤔

[buoyant seal]

1. https://roadmap.sh/backend
2. recommending books about software engineering
   #web-development message
3. check this full Python roadmap https://github.com/amaargiru/pyroad
4. may be also checking this backend roadmap https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/blob/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
   you know, start from beginning and go forward? 🙂

[knotty pilot]

but how do i use roadmaps? like language-there are 3, do i learn all 3 or i choose 1 i like

[pine sleet]

Don't take the roadmap as gospel, just a guide

[buoyant seal]

each roadmap has its own recommendations how to follow it. Of course it recommends something one first, usually highlighted in color which is most recommended

[pine sleet]

Look around and see what interests you / what would be relevant for your career. Go with that

[knotty pilot]

https://roadmap.sh/python is this one good

[buoyant seal]

also, Python better be your priority since you wish Machine Learning
Python pretty much almost owns this field

[knotty pilot]

is this roadmap good??

[buoyant seal]

i like this one better https://github.com/amaargiru/pyroad more complete one

[karmic topaz]

Hello everyone

[buoyant seal]

reminding though, that best would be applying to university first though

[knotty pilot]

why

[buoyant seal]

#career-advice message
check channel pins

[true harness]

because you will learn a lot from it, have networking opportunities, internships, etc

[buoyant seal]

also i would add that at least bachelors degree is expected from data science/machine learning guys, without it would be many times harder to get hired in this field

[knotty pilot]

what is bachelors degree in Russian

[buoyant seal]

степепнь Бакалавра. 4хлетнее обучение. по программе обучения в духе 01.03.02 программа Прикладная математика и информатика (факультет прикладной математики и информатики в рамках университета НГТУ был бы наиболее подходящим).
this 01.03.02 study program will fit both data scientists and software developers

[knotty pilot]

oh, I'm just in 7th grade .-.

[quasi anchor]

Hi guys, our prof gave us a hard time in our capstone proposal. It seems that our companies are not big enough for their criteria but the thing is it is awfully hard to get a hold of the CTO or head of IT of a certain big entity. How do you suggest we go about this?

[buoyant seal]

well, best to finish school and apply to univer then. If you will be able to self study and learn material in advance on your own to your desired profession, u will be... very much better prepared after graduation for work. Especially if u will be able to get internships, getting practtices in advance, competing somewhere on kaggle.com in competions, having pet projects related to your chosen specialization

[knotty pilot]

yeah, at school i can focus on programming, and in universty i'll have to study the subjects

[buoyant seal]

btw, here is a very great example of Machine learning pet project to catch eye of any person (not mine)

https://npigeons.com/
Person made product that in Viva La Dirt videos, tracked all encounters of all characters across its small videos and gives links to users to the video it mentions them
I woud get such machine learning guy right away 😆

P.S. he told me he needed 40 GBs of videos to download for this model to run 😁

[buoyant seal]

University program is not that hard. It leaves plenty of room for doing smth else, like self study, having part time job and etc
Although i graduated with not that good scores in math subjects may be it requires more time to get good grades 😁

[buoyant seal]

For good majority university (in Russia) assumes u will learn stuff on your own actually takes time to understand it
teachers aren't tracking and persuading you to learn stuff like in school, and rarely explaning necessary material in full capacity to complete tasks. in university nobody cares, they aren't teachers, they are professors there. You just need to complete assignments and to pass exams
You are expected to study on your own. Otherwise getting expelled 😐

[quasi anchor]

On a different note, how would you suggest dealing with a subjective panel in a capstone title defense?

[buoyant seal]

you may wish to ask your question explained in a better way with present more clearly defined question. Also no need to ping me for that, ask everyone if wishing.

[quasi anchor]

no worries

[mild crown]

i need someone to be with me until i finish the website someone to be with me step by step and teach me

[quasi anchor]

Hi guys, currently in my 3rd year of IT UNI. Our prof and panel gave us a hard time in our capstone proposal. It seems that our companies are not big enough for their criteria but the thing is it is awfully hard to get a hold of the CTO or head of IT of a certain big entity. How do you suggest we go about this? Also we have been hit with subjective judgement and it is evident for example we have not given the chance to defend our proposed title due to the reason that some other group before us already presented a similar idea without giving us a chance to defend how we are unique. Also we have been tagged as rude but we were just trying to fight tooth and nail for our capstone proposal. But we are not done yet! we are going to try to reach out to bigger companies and come up with bigger and better ideas. If you guys have similar experiences I would love to know about them.

[delicate bane]

where are you located? what country? also capstones differ greatly from uni to uni - can you provide any more details

[quasi anchor]

Philippines, AMA university, Quezon City. - V7 new BSIT curriculum

[zealous topaz]

to those working in industry: what's your company's stand toward chat gpt? a few weeks ago one of top 10 contractor company in the us had video meeting with ceo where all associates were able to participate. in the meeting ceo made it clear that all associates should utilize chat gpt as much as they can when working with clients.

I was wondering how are the others responding to this new..."trend"?

[delicate bane]

ah then maybe @brittle thorn can provide more insight if hes available

[brittle thorn]

Most companies are SME or small to medium enterprises, if you want to get the attention of the big companies the proposal must be compelling.... imagine all the pitches they go through....

Also why the bias towards big companies solving the problem of a small or medium enterprise is valid....

[quasi anchor]

Correct! they would be SMEs. I have tried to reach out to one "Service as a product" company via linkedin and 2 private companies within UP ayala technohub. Hoping for the best of luck to even be considered to collaborate. We are keeping a positive outlook even though we went through a "denied" phase.

[brittle thorn]

I understand you may want the big corporations for prestige

But that is a tall order they are few

[quasi anchor]

Exactly! they are looking for a min of 3 + locations and 100 to 500 employees which is a bit out there for our level don't you think?

[brittle thorn]

I think so

I worked with many offshore companies with less than 50 and just one office

They work with overseas clients and their projects aren't less complicated

Maybe even more mature than our locals

[brittle thorn]

This criteria feels arbitrary

[quartz aspen]

My company wants me to do some courses/certs/whatever.
Soooo...
Does anyone know any good courses on around-programming stuff like testing, git mastering, or ci/cd? ._. I gotta do some research before the one-on-one meeting on Friday

[brittle thorn]

Evaluate the project on its merit and impact

[quasi anchor]

we plan to overcome with consistency they seem to be a bit unprofessional for my taste but that is just me

[brittle thorn]

Maybe back your claims with stats and data

[true harness]

aws cloud practitioner

[quasi anchor]

this is what we aim to do. Go for a more holistic approach with real concrete data

[quasi anchor]

the first roadblock is getting to a company that would accept us. I will mass send through the night and see where it lands

[brittle thorn]

Good luck

[quartz aspen]

Cloud times will come, I'm supposed to get solid coding-related foundations. Basically each person is supposed to get solid foundations in stuff they're good at, then we will get back into learning new stuff

[true harness]

that sounds dumb. aren't you already using these things at work

[quartz aspen]

Using is not the same as using correctly. Like, I use git. But leave me with cli only and I'll die or break something. Because I only know as much as I need to function, not really a solid base

Testing... Uh, better not get into it...

[delicate bane]

hmm DW might have some recommendations

[delicate bane]

sidenote: drinking an iced latte atm

[quartz aspen]

I'm not working in a software house, so we don't really have good coding practices. We'll have a meeting with all coding people (like... 5?) to even set some ground rules for good coding

[delicate bane]

this one isnt one of those online courses/cert you are talking about but its one of the better resources for git ive seen: https://www.atlassian.com/git

even covers rebasing. which is neat.

[sleek egret]

yar

[delicate bane]

ah i almost worked at a startup like that. i wouldve been the 4th programmer lol. 2 juniors, 2 seniors.

[quartz aspen]

Thanks. For me, it will probably be a mix of some tutorials and some actual courses. Programming doesn't really rely that much on formal courses

[quartz aspen]

We're around 70 people but that's mostly security-related stuff like knowing networking or firewalls, not programming...

[delicate bane]

hey that startup was mostly finance/accounting folks anyway

[smoky quest]

programming does rely on formal courses after the initial stages. For instance, algorithms is a big one

[quartz aspen]

My new manager sent me some courses but more as "idk if it's good, find something in this field". It seems gitlab has a lot of certs (Gitlab Certified Git Associate, same for CI/CD)

[quartz aspen]

I did stuff at uni for that already

[smoky quest]

nice!

[quartz aspen]

I haven't finished uni but did my dsa and stuff already. That's why I need some solid foundations around programming stuff rather than programming itself

[smoky quest]

architecture, design patterns and distributed systems might be of interest then, since they are typically seen later

[sleek egret]

queuing theory, graph theory, relational algebra, etc

all fun topics

[quartz aspen]

Design patterns ❤️ one of my fav classes, the lecturer was so impressed he wanted to lead my thesis when the time comes... But my health deteriorated and the time never came

Graphs we did a lot during discrete maths, and graph-related coding at "advanced programming" (3rd semester)

[smoky quest]

it might be simpler to look up the semesters you missed and the topics covered

[sleek egret]

these days, I'd include non-CS topics like linear algebra, statistics and tensors

[delicate bane]

@dreamy shadow what did i say

[delicate bane]

i think everyone should learn statistics > calculus. but that is my bias speaking

[true harness]

calc is pretty necessary for a few cs topics

[delicate bane]

oh? do any of them look decent

[delicate bane]

right. but i think for non-cs people, stats is more relevant yknow? especially if its gonna be a hs course

[true harness]

I thought we were talking about cs courses

[delicate bane]

im just saying the 'general everyone' lol

[quartz aspen]

It doesn't cover git and cd/ci pipelines. As I said, I'm looking mostly for that kind of stuff, hence courses

[delicate bane]

youve probably already seen this https://missing.csail.mit.edu/

[quartz aspen]

The gitlab stuff I mentioned looks nice but thats like 3 different things from them. Other stuff... checks email again one udemy link and then containers mostly. And general mentions of security in programming stuff, like owasp. Not really a course in there... I mean, a security news website who does security courses is mentioned, but I already took their attacking and protecting Web apps workshop...

[vapid jay]

Здравствуйте я только что скачал python и незнаю как привязать файл для сохранение данных иначе как Run [run module 5]

Hello, I just downloaded python and I don't know how to bind a file to save data otherwise than Run [run module 5]

[buoyant seal]

blinked. This is not really telling question what is going on

[vapid jay]

I don't know how to connect save file in python

[buoyant seal]

what is "save file"

you mean you wish to save result of your python script into file automatically?

[vapid jay]

Run [Run module 5]

[sleek egret]

open source code is even cheaper! 😋

[buoyant seal]

just tell it in Russian already. i will understand. I don't understand even your russian phrases at the moment. Provide screenshots/video or something what you are talking about

[buoyant seal]

because Run is just for script running, how it is tied in your case to saving files i don't really understand at the moment. Not clear what you wish to achieve

[buoyant seal]

well, that was understandable part. Now ask a question in a way i can understand in russian or english

[dreamy spade]

Someone here said it would take a Senior Software Developer 3 months to find work in software development if they got laid off by another company. What are these Seniors Software Developers doing in those 3 months? Do they work a minimum wage job in the time being?

[vapid jay]

how to save the code

[buoyant seal]

ideally they just continue to work, while as a side business going through interviews 🙂

[dreamy spade]

Freelance work?

[buoyant seal]

not getting fired until they haven't found new job and quited on their own. Seniors quit companies 🙂 Not companies quit seniors.

[dreamy spade]

I'm pretty much talking about a scenario where they suddenly got laid off. A lot of lay offs has been happening in tech lately.

[buoyant seal]

Ergh... i would not worry about hypotetical situation like this too much. You know... in most of cases first will be fired HRs, managers, juniors and everyone else before seniors

[sleek egret]

people have this thing called "savings" that they can live off of

[buoyant seal]

you need to be crazy as Elon Musk to fire seniors usually. Just don't go to Elon Musk. Problem solved.

[dreamy spade]

I'm asking because it appears as though it's easier for seniors to find work again than graduates trying to land a junior positions.

[buoyant seal]

highly likely 3 months number appears from scrutiny seeking a good offer instead of grabbing first available offer.
If senior would be wishing to get first any job, that would take probably less than 1 week.
At least if he has competitive good marketable skills

[dreamy spade]

I'm also asking because I am considering finding a job other than tech temporarily due to the extreme competitiveness.

[buoyant seal]

open notepad++, write code, save notepad++ (by pressing Ctrl+S, or clicking file -> save as) 🙂 run code from notepad by writing python3 filename.py (while being in the same folder)

[dreamy spade]

I never been through such high competition before in finding a job in a specific industry market in my life. I applied for a warehouse position and that company called me in less than an hour from when I applied for it.

It takes approximately a week or two for tech companies to email me about the status of my application. It's insane.

[delicate bane]

DW this is the wrong channel for that

[buoyant seal]

he barely understands how to write a single python code of file (actually does not at all), i don't have a hope to explain anything else 🙂

[delicate bane]

you right. its okay

[dreamy spade]

Even so, personally for me I get sad when my savings go down and I'm not working

[delicate bane]

@dreamy shadow bro he @'d you

link to original post: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/danleedata_yup-i-did-it-id-like-to-propose-that-the-activity-7041785114338455553-I6RB

[buoyant seal]

usually to senior level... money pillow of savings is always quite huge 😛 hell, even middle dev salary is enough to feel rich in a very short time
there is need to be extremly money wasting person to be not having life savings for at least a year
When you are senior you already received salary for at least 5+ years.

[dreamy spade]

It's seriously frustrating how difficult it is landing an interview as a college graduate.

[buoyant seal]

so, i would not worry about Senior problems. They are very far away. There will be entirely different skills / money / mentality / demand present.

[dreamy shadow]

.....Dad?

[dreamy spade]

It seems like it's easier for them to get another job than a college graduate getting a junior role. it's not fair.

[delicate bane]

bro the "economics" though

[dreamy spade]

The experienced get more experience and the person with no experience stays having no experience.

[buoyant seal]

well, they are in demand everywhere. graduate is everywhere not in demand. that's logical conclusion and why it is best to aim becoming senior as fast as possible
i can tell you more, if you don't learn, you can contninue being junior even after 5 and 8 years of experience. Seniority is not just work experience, it is effort to reach this rank

[dreamy shadow]

I meant it more like the "dad is that you?" sarcastic kind of way lol

[dreamy spade]

I can't get experience without having a job and I can't get a job without experience. It's infuriating.

[delicate bane]

lol gotcha. this is a common sentiment on linkedin from the DS community.

[buoyant seal]

lower your expectations, and grab any first available related at least remotely to your specialization job 🙂 for cheapest price

[dreamy spade]

I'm trying to take whatever I can get.

[delicate bane]

the commenters come out of the woodwork anytime anyone suggests DS become more SWE skewed (i believe theres a need to upskill yes; people cant stay "general 'eevee' DS" forever)

[buoyant seal]

in my first job i was backend developer that started with salary 400$ per month 😁

[delicate bane]

hey but now youve moved on up

[buoyant seal]

exactly 🙂

[dreamy shadow]

Wtf 400$ a month? That's like worse than minimum wage

[dreamy spade]

I'm not sure if the economy will grow if every company is looking to hire seniors. There would be no new people trying to enter the industry which would make the economy in tech stagnant.

[buoyant seal]

third world country / russia. Not really uncommon. People from other third world countries pretty much get same for graduate level

[dreamy shadow]

Ah, nvm then

[delicate bane]

[buoyant seal]

also minimum wage in russia is 222 usd per month 😆 so it was twice greater.

[true harness]

you don't need experience to get an entry level job. it just helps

[fallen jewel]

have u guys seen chatgpt4?

[sleek egret]

chatgpt4 is a honeypot

[fallen jewel]

im legit considering switching degrees cuz of this shi3

[sleek egret]

do it!

[true harness]

to what? AI will remove the need for any major, not just CS ||\s||

[fallen jewel]

hilarious

[delicate bane]

my favorite part was when they combined chatgpt + gpt4

[true harness]

not to be rmah, but, coping about how it isn't fair is not helping anyone. of course it isn't fair. your best bet is to just try harder

apply more, improve your resume, improve your skills

[delicate bane]

anyway, for the lurkers. no, AI wont take programmer jobs. SWE has a lot more to it than writing small bits of isolated code.

if anything, it will help devs meet increasing workloads. and if it does get really good, we may all still be expected to become architects at that point

@true harness system design

[sleek egret]

what if the AI does the system design?

[true harness]

cry

[near ocean]

Retire on a beach somewhere

[true harness]

I don't get it

[lilac yoke]

I’m just waiting for AI to port applications

Write a website and say “turn this into an android app”, couple minutes later you have an executable

Wouldn’t be surprised if a language came out specifically for AIs to interpret it in any language too

[true harness]

pretty sure that's just called a programming language

[lilac yoke]

Software AI/ML is the way to go right now

[fallen jewel]

someone still has to code the ai amrite?

[delicate bane]

our roles will become "AI Ops" then

[lilac yoke]

Currently you need to pursue a masters or doctorate to get any schooling on AI/ML but companies are training people from nothing to catch people up

Big changes coming in that field in the next couple years

[delicate bane]

are they really training them though or are they just throwing them into the fire.

• rex's hot take for the day

[dreamy shadow]

GPT4 paper doesn't have any technical details lol They keeping everything under NDA I bet.

[delicate bane]

bc its now become a product

[dreamy shadow]

I feel like I need to move out of insurance. Too much stuff I don't know domain wise. Still no idea which coverage type, etc the data I work with actually falls into.

[near ocean]

Source?

[zealous path]

Ooof, that’s a bit too relatable

[near ocean]

Generally thats called an apprenticeship and you dont exactly catch up to anyone with multiple degrees

[spark cobalt]

Oops slept in and skipped 2 meetings

[fallen jewel]

thats so fking false lmao

[dreamy shadow]

Literally came out of a call where in the intro, I'm like "I worked on these models that feed into generic dashboard". Then they talk about the data, and I'm think to myself: "I worked on the data too... but too late to bring it up now".

[delicate bane]

bro leave insurance 👏

[spark cobalt]

I guess no meetings today

[dreamy shadow]

But where else am I going to get 20 PTO days + rollover. And like 13 free holidays 😭

[fallen jewel]

ure lying

[delicate bane]

my friend is SWE in insurance and already he has to know a good chunk of domain knowledge. he also works with DS so theres that

[dreamy shadow]

SWE is different though, I sit on the business side

[delicate bane]

jealous. wednesdays are meeting central for me

so even more domain knowledge required. that doesnt help your point

[dreamy shadow]

Well, technically I sit between "True Technical" and "True Business".

[spark cobalt]

Nah slept through 2 of them, I should have 2 but not anymore.

[smoky quest]

any tech company?

[delicate bane]

relatable tbh. i was supposed to get up before 8 and be productive. didnt happen.

[dreamy shadow]

Tech companies: massively laying off people

[spark cobalt]

I'm staying at work till like midnight anyways, fuck it.

[smoky quest]

only the overweight ones.
We are on a hiring spree

[spark cobalt]

Like 8 blocks complete blackout, can't do shit at home.

[delicate bane]

is this why i see you on at wee hours of the night

[dreamy shadow]

Picking up FAANG at a discount?

[spark cobalt]

I guess that's the cause for why I slept in

[delicate bane]

vicious cycle. no end in sight

[dreamy shadow]

It ends when you change companies. Better start applying

[smoky quest]

“You cannot overtake 15 cars when it’s sunny… but you can when it’s raining.”

-Ayrton Senna,

[spark cobalt]

If I sleep later and later, eventually my sleeping schedule will be fixed

[dreamy shadow]

[smoky quest]

it was a one time thing. Doesn't bear on the rest

[delicate bane]

i think the quote still makes sense. downtimes are when some of the greatest opportunities exist

[true harness]

i asked about what version my project should support but they haven't responded yet. do i just support 3.8 and be done 😬. or 3.7?

[delicate bane]

you are spending a lot of time on this huh?

[true harness]

school is easy and i want an internship 😔

[dreamy shadow]

Just be like our devops team. Upgrade to python 3.9, kill the dependencies, then kill the server, then bring back the server. Progress!

[delicate bane]

im still surprised you havent picked one up earlier

that was supposed to be a compliment btw

[dreamy shadow]

Just make sure you don't graduate w/o an internship. Because after you graduate, you turn from student to unemployed.

[delicate bane]

i wish we had data that shows time it took for students to get a job for those with internships vs. those without. bet it would be a decent difference

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, probably significant difference. (T-test ). Always let another company eat the initial costs of training a new-grad/student.

[true harness]

well ideally you have them keep working with you. that way you don't need to train them on your company's specifics at all

[dreamy shadow]

ALSO, fun fact. People at our company just realizing the "master_id" isn't the same "master_id" across different databases.

[dreamy shadow]

Depends on the company imo. I think larger companies tend to have internship projects where the interns actually don't do much.

Mine was at a 40 people start up, so my project was essentially a research project that went into production lol

[delicate bane]

hot take: sometimes interns have negative impact on the work

[dreamy shadow]

More like you give the intern a "real project".

[true harness]

i think if you have negative impact as an intern, it's not really your fault. your superiors should be able to handle you

[delicate bane]

some companies arent prepared to take on interns tbh

[true harness]

interns probably don't have a positive impact, but i would hope most are just neutral, or are only losing the company a little bit of money

[dreamy shadow]

That's why most employers will have a dedicated internship program. Like animals in a zoo

[true harness]

the company the take home assessment is for had an intern as their first non-founding employee

[delicate bane]

i was going to say something but then i realized idk what to say to that

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, I no longer want to work in start ups. With the recent bank fail, that's bye bye more people.

[smoky quest]

That's an extremely rare event. I wouldn't use that for deciding on a career

[summer roost]

Interns are supposed to cost the company money. They're an investment (in brand, training for technology and culture fit, etc)

[dreamy shadow]

yea, that and instability, bare minimum vacation, "unlimited PTO", and worse benefits in general. No thanks to start ups

[summer roost]

Interns are supposed to require hand holding (or at least, very close mentorship), and that will basically always cost more than just having the mentor do the work themselves.

[smoky quest]

unlimited ptos are a thing. I take more vacations than you have been allowed to in your company 😉

[summer roost]

They're not unlimited. Unlimited PTOs are arbitrary limits imposed at the discretion of someone somewhere in your management chain.

[dreamy shadow]

Managers get guidelines of how much "unlimited" pto one should receive.

[summer roost]

And because it's guidelines and not policies, they're applied arbitrarily depending on how well you're liked

And on average, employees at companies with unlimited PTO take fewer PTO days then employees at companies with generous PTO allotments (let's say 4 weeks or more). They take fewer days because, not knowing what the limit is or how many they would be allowed to take, they err on the side of caution.

[dreamy shadow]

Also not needing to pay out the vacation days in certain states.

[vital wyvern]

@delicate bane Just had a 'Data Wrangler' job ad pop up on LinkedIn with SQL and Excel experience as a requirement; but with a master's recommended. I'm not sure this company is being forthright with what they expect this person to do lol.

But "Data Wrangler" as a job title will never not be an entertaining concept to me.

[dreamy shadow]

Sounds like the recruiter read a medium article and decided on that.

[vital wyvern]

The job ad reads like a normal Data Analyst, so I'm very confused why they decided on that duty title lol

[smoky quest]

That's a more cynical way to look at it. I am not convinced it's effective

[dreamy shadow]

Because they are special

[lilac yoke]

internships at large companies are like this, smaller companies in my experience have less hand holding and treat you as another developer

in my internship I think I’m actually saving my company money, as I do just as much work as a developer for way less pay

[true harness]

pretty sure that just depends on the company. for a company whose former interns i talked to, they had a lot of support from their coworkers, and they were only 4 people including the intern

[spark cobalt]

I experienced this when I was an intern.

[vital wyvern]

For anyone tracking my villain arc, I just got offered the internship I was pursuing.

[stoic relic]

https://twitter.com/joeprkns/status/1635933638725451779

Joe Perkins (@joeprkns)

Last night I used GPT-4 to write code for 5 micro services for a new product.

A (very good) dev quoted £5k and 2 weeks.

GPT-4 delivered the same in 3 hours, for $0.11

Genuinely mind boggling

Likes

4364

Retweets

532

Twitter · Mar 15, 2023, 9:19 AM

anyone concerned?

[true harness]

😤 😤 😤 💪

[vital wyvern]

I have 24 hours to accept, but that's mostly just me making sure my living arrangements are still valid since I have to relocate about 3 hours.

[true harness]

24 hours that sounds incredibly fast

[vital wyvern]

🤷‍♂️ It starts in a month.

Anyway, the official job title is a Financial Controls Analyst, to dispel the cloak and dagger.

[near ocean]

No

[dreamy shadow]

What's the joke again? Something like: https://feelpositive.wordpress.com/2014/03/31/knowing-where-to-tap/

[summer roost]

It's not cynical. It's objectively true that "unlimited PTO" is not unlimited. You could not tell your boss that you won't be in for the rest of the year because you're taking PTO. There is a limit.

I suppose it's somewhat cynical to observe that the limit is applied on a case by case and person by person basis. Maybe there's some company where that's not true, and the same secret limit applies universally (or at least fairly, based on tenure or performance or role or whatever) to every employee. I've never heard of such a company, though.

From a DEI perspective, unlimited PTO also leads to members of minority groups taking fewer PTO days than members of majority groups.

[delicate bane]

probably has to do all of the grunt work. then give the clean data to another analyst who presents to the business to get all the credit

then when layoffs round 2 comes, the business will be like "what does that other person do again?" 🪓

jk.

[delicate bane]

we love a good villain arc 👏

[smoky quest]

It does create an adversarial situation when it doesn't necessarily need to exist. It just leads to hypothetical scenario that don't necessarily exist.
It's similar to many other things in the corporate environment like at-will employment. It's not because there can be a downside that there is no upside.

I have never worked in an environment where the unlimited ptos were applied on a case by case basis. That has always been a "take as much as you need, no question asked" policy. If anything, employees are reminded to take more vacation

[zealous topaz]

if interviewer insists you to elaborate over project work instead of showing my code, is it still ok to my code while explain to make it easier to understand? i mean, visual is always better than listening

[sleek egret]

unlimited PTO just means they don't need to add it to severance pay if they lay you off

[sleek egret]

of course that's ok. it's more than ok, it's preferred

[leaden jasper]

I find it's helpful to show an outline of the code, but I wouldn't want someone to go line-by-line. Also, it depends what they want you to elaborate on. If it's more about your experience with it, then the code probably isn't necessary

[sleek egret]

@leaden jasper makes a good point. Don't spend 20 minutes on a single query

[smoky quest]

depends at which level of abstraction they want to interact at

Like showing the screws in your car is irrelevant when discussing if it's a race car or an offroad one

[true harness]

you have to "read the room", as it were. easiest to just ask them what they want to see

for a recent interview i had, the interviewer just went down my resume and asked about the various projects i had. they were content with just a high level overview of basically why and what i learned through them. but if they had asked, i could explain the different architectural decisions i made

[lilac yoke]

i don’t like to show code unless it’s specifically asked, generally i pseudo code on a whiteboard or something in interviews

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> shitposting

[sleek egret]

huh?

[sleek egret]

is it really shitposting if it is totally non-sensical?

[true harness]

that's part of the allure, isn't it?

[sleek egret]

I never understood why some folks seem to relish having other people think they're an idiot

is it just attention seeking?

[buoyant seal]

Human is a social creature

[leaden jasper]

@rotund schooner Respect channel topics and don't shitpost.

[still condor]

amog uns

[sleek egret]

huh?

[zealous path]

Amogus

[delicate bane]

i would say its attention seeking behavior

anyway i told my mentor that if things dont improve in a few months i may or may not leave the company lol.

he told me to let him know beforehand bc then he would have leverage to nab me for his team instead lol. which i would 110% enjoy.

[vital wyvern]

I need appropriate clothing for this new job now. That might be kinda' spensive.

[spark cobalt]

Are you working at a law firm or something

[vital wyvern]

Big bank

[near ocean]

Gotta invest in some brown shoes

[true harness]

bruh. dressing with a suit and tie and shit sounds so stifling. like i'll do it for interviews and job fairs but everyday? 😬

[vital wyvern]

Erm, not doing the whole suit and tie thing, but I don't have a lot of button up shirts.

[spark cobalt]

I wear PJs sometimes to work lol

Can't imagine that kind of environment

[vital wyvern]

I would love a work-from-home gig at some point

But I'm not sure showing up to my internship in pj's is a smart move.

[near ocean]

One way to find out

[true harness]

yeah, ask about acceptable attire

[vital wyvern]

"So you said a suit and tie... does a dinosaur suit and a clip on tie count? Oh... well what about the t-shirts with the ties printed on them? What do you mean 'not qualified for this job?'"

[delicate bane]

i think i may be allergic to those

[true harness]

ask for a stipend for new clothes, heh

[vital wyvern]

It's an internship you maniacs, I'm not asking for anything until I'm given a long term job offer.

[true harness]

I thought you were going to school

[spark cobalt]

Have you seen how the others in the company dress?

[true harness]

how is the pay 👀👀

[vital wyvern]

Yes, I'm pretty on-key with my assessment that slacks and a button up shirt are appropriate.

For the internship? Meh. I will be evaluated at the end of my 2 month period for retention. Starting pay is just shy of six figures.

[true harness]

👀. would you work alongside of school?

[vital wyvern]

Online school, yeah. If this pans out I'm looking into some decent CS/Cybersecurity online schools.

Gave 8 years of my life up for free education, you're out of your mind if you think I'm not using it.

If it plays out nicely, I already spoke to the hiring team about lateral moves within the company during the interview-- they're encouraged and very common from my understanding. So it would be cool to hop straight from school into a Cybersecurity role.

[spark cobalt]

Nice

[vital wyvern]

I would like to work at S32 someday, I think that's the big goal.

[true harness]

what's that

[vital wyvern]

NSA, CNO/TAO.

[true harness]

huh

[vital wyvern]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailored_Access_Operations

[spark cobalt]

The government?

[vital wyvern]

Wouldn't be the first time.

[near ocean]

Cyber warfare? I dont even know her

[spark cobalt]

All I know is government = outdated technology and low pay

[vital wyvern]

I can assure you that does not hold true for this specific agency.

[spark cobalt]

I'm sure you know what you're doing

No need to write a paragraph for me lol

Looks interesting from initial Google search

[vital wyvern]

If it showed I was typing, all I typed "I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to research S32 further," but didn't like how snarky that sounded lol

[spark cobalt]

Lol

[delicate bane]

it would be cool for sure. too bad you wouldnt be able to talk about it

[vital wyvern]

That's not new either.

Though it sounds cool when I say "I cannot disclose that information," or "I cannot discuss that."

[true harness]

"that's classified 🕵️ "

[olive hazel]

Hey all, does anyone have an opinion about Eastern University (online) for a MS in Data Science, or online MS programs in general for this field? Are they taken seriously? I've worked for some big online universities and I know not all are viewed as "real" schools are degrees, but Eastern's masters program is ~$10k and other schools I've looked at are $40-50k for online.

[peak halo]

I would look into who's accrediting that program. Because the term "data science" is a bit of a fad. It might be that it's easier to get a data science program accredited than a more established discipline like CS, and that they're leveraging that to tempt those who want to switch careers with a degree that won't have perceived value.

[olive hazel]

A good point, honestly these schools have pages that say "Our average graduate makes $X/year".... problem is that X is only about $10k more than I already make so sinking $50k into a degree doesn't make sense.

unless it's $10k

[true harness]

it would make sense if you're going to be working for more than some number of years after the degree

[olive hazel]

in about 20+ years it pays for itself

i'm 40, so please god no

[deft herald]

And keep in mind that your salary will be increased every year (most likely)

[olive hazel]

🤞

[peak halo]

yeah, I'm not going to defend the idea that higher education is reasonably priced. I'm in grad school for CS right now because my company is paying for it, and half way through the first course, I've only gotten one assignment graded. The quality of the instruction is not worth $2500.

[true harness]

definitely have to agree with you there 😔

[vital wyvern]

Someone was talking about ASU as a fairly high quality online education in here awhile back, was that a fairly wide consensus?

[peak halo]

I'd say so. It's still a public university.

[vital wyvern]

I might put some feelers out into some communities to figure out what kinda' backgrounds people are wielding in the government cybersecurity sphere.

But I figure a reasonably high quality program for CS is a reasonable foundation at least.

[pine sleet]

I can't believe ASU still hasn't gotten back to me !!!

[vital wyvern]

Aren't you going to T A&M?

[pine sleet]

Yeah but I applied to ASU as well
Just curious to know if I got accepted

[peak halo]

if something gets back to you really quickly, then it's probably a scam

[pine sleet]

The local community college I also applied to:

[vital wyvern]

I do kind of wonder how much value I'm going to get out of Cybersecurity-focused higher education if I'll be going into school with Sec+/OSCP. It might be more reasonable to just double down on Computer Science.

Considering each of these certs is $1600 anyway

[true harness]

actually i was thinking about this. i talked to my mom about doing a masters and her opinion was that generally a higher quality school matters more for a master's than a bachelor's.
the issue is that i plan to do the 4+1 program at my current school (which is not very good for cs), and going for a masters at a different school would take 2 years instead of 1.
in my area i'd expect (hope) to earn around 100ish-k as a new graduate with a masters, and the extra year of schooling would cost 20-40k.
any idea about the value of a masters from a higher quality school compared to a relatively no-name school?

[vital wyvern]

Trying to knock out more or less all of these, as they're all pretty big ticket items to have in your resume/qualifications.

[pine sleet]

Didn't expect new grads with master's to make that much

[true harness]

yeah maybe it's a little high. 100 might be more reasonable

[pine sleet]

Dang. Still a lot more than I was expecting.
I was thinking something around 60-70, maybe 80
I'm also aiming for masters so that's good to hear, lol

[true harness]

depends on area of course. recursive likes to cite that they pay entry level devs 100k starting

[smoky quest]

it depends.
The value of the network can be nice.
However the main impact will be what you do with it

[pine sleet]

Honestly don't know yet where I want to go to work so I don't think I can get those specific baselines :(

[true harness]

60 is super low across the US, though. like bottom 10%, and you're not in the bottom 10%

source: https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm

[pine sleet]

Heck, I would've been happy as a single man making 70. 100 is much better

[true harness]

me trying to quantify the monetary value of what i get out based on what i put in 😩 😩 😩

[pine sleet]

Damnit, texas has the lowest annual mean wage.

This state is pretty bad anyway, good riddance

[true harness]

looks somewhere in the middle to me

[vital wyvern]

I think talking about wages without taking into account cost of living of a specific area is probably wasted words.

[pine sleet]

Am mostly going off of this

[delicate bane]

what, you mean i cant just grab an online masters in DS and get a high paying tech job afterwards?
insert pretends to be shocked meme

[true harness]

well, there are 50 states, not 5. see the "annual mean wage by state"

[pine sleet]

That's fair
Still pretty mid

[true harness]

definitely higher in metro areas, but of course COL is higher as well. the "by area" map breaks it down further

[vital wyvern]

The cool kicker for this new job that I'm picking up is that the COL for the city is ~12% below national average, and housing is ~28% below national average.

[smoky quest]

Are we talking stanford or berkeley or cmu?

[true harness]

well it'd be cool to get in to one of those lol

[smoky quest]

what's stopping you?

[true harness]

not being selected?

[smoky quest]

what's stopping you from being selected?

[true harness]

huh?

[smoky quest]

(five whys ftw)

[pine sleet]

possessing a severe skill issue

[near ocean]

Not being selected isnt entirely up to them

[true harness]

because even if i am fully qualified, there is still a chance i'm not selected by rng

[near ocean]

You could do everything right years before being of age to apply and still not get in

[smoky quest]

to be clear though, the difference in value between the school is less than whether or not you have a masters

[true harness]

yeah, that i'm sure of. just considering the lost income vs potential increase in income from a better school

[delicate bane]

i mean what

jk robin hates this state.

only psv saw

[pine sleet]

L state fr
cant wait to leave

[delicate bane]

vanilla computer science would be good if you think you might pivot...to say DS

[vital wyvern]

I wish to develop cyberweapons.

[delicate bane]

then you should probably go further in cyber lol

[delicate bane]

have fun at uni then lel

i only say this bc i know what the student population at that school is like

[pine sleet]

i hear the weather is better at uni's campus tho

[buoyant seal]

like cybermen? 😁 https://youtu.be/ZN19oHTv_Vg

[delicate bane]

DW would you ever go into cybersec

[pine sleet]

oh? you've been there?

[delicate bane]

double major'd. college of science + college of liberal arts.

[buoyant seal]

my brain is not large enough to fit it together with backend development / devops engineering / programming languages / kubernetes stuff / AWS and etc

[delicate bane]

my advisor did NOT like this btw lol

[pine sleet]

nice!! did not expect to find that here. lol

[delicate bane]

rip DevSecOps

[smoky quest]

most will specialize though

[buoyant seal]

at the moment, i am afraid if i will be able to remember / upkeep all the already chosen knowledge and tech 😁

[pine sleet]

my dad does secops but i don't even know what that means lol

[delicate bane]

there is substantial amount of overlap between networking knowledge and cybersec though

[buoyant seal]

backend + platform engineering 🙂

[delicate bane]

because you need to understand networking in order to secure it lol

[delicate bane]

set up to be great architect

[smoky quest]

to some extent and depending on the specialization

[delicate bane]

btw theres some very strong student orgs there. highly recommend you join the good ones. some go to conferences, competitions, and such

just try not to let it affect your schooling too much, etc.

[pine sleet]

Looks like it! Joined their Discord's student hub and just looking around at all they have

[delicate bane]

noice. thats def one of the schools strengths

[pine sleet]

LmaoOps

[delicate bane]

ah i saw a tweet about that and i dont even have twitter lol

but actually if anyone is interested in serving ML models/getting models to production, like the vanilla Full Stack Deep Learning course is 11/10 good

me and a buddy met up every weekend last fall when it was released and knocked it out and shared our takeaways

bro chips book is sooooo good. she literally went on the SDS podcast just now and talked about it with Jon Krohn too

if anyone is interested https://open.spotify.com/episode/2N5PF5VhsyKBYED4B4dHyF?si=yq0RyyLUS0u1aaqFnoeoOA

[fierce nexus]

I think it wasn't a good idea being in a CS career

[spark cobalt]

Nice

[peak halo]

why not? because of chatgpt?

[fierce nexus]

no, cause the filler classes

[peak halo]

which filler classes?

[fierce nexus]

chemestry, Biology and so on

[peak halo]

yeah, it doesn't make any sense for CS students to have to take natural sciences. but getting the degree will be worth it for your future earnings, so you just gotta power through

[fierce nexus]

well, you have a point, but like, I don't want my title, I just want to be a game designer

[dark arrow]

im EE and i had sociology in my first semester 😭

[fierce nexus]

damm, but why do collages do that, do they want us to pay more?

[peak halo]

if you can get a job doing game development without a degree (and get the same salary as a degree-holder), then do that. but I would venture that those positions basically require a degree.

[peak halo]

to make you more """"well-rounded"""""

[dark arrow]

^me after a semester of sociology

[fierce nexus]

well, that's a good point

[fierce nexus]

HAHAHAHAH, GOOD ONE

[cedar dragon]

degree shows that you were taught and have different career paths you can take but doesn't mean you mastered like 20 classes from ch1 to ch 12/16

[peak halo]

it's not necessarily about making people pay more. universities as a concept had already been around for hundreds of years before public education became a thing that everyone got in developed countries.

[cedar dragon]

depends on the degree like Nurse since they focus one primary objective(hospital and stuff) while computer science has many option

[fierce nexus]

damm, so that means, collages are more boomers than schools it self?

[smoky quest]

Do you prefer to learn python through interpretive dances on tiktok?

[peak halo]

No? This has nothing to do with boomers.

[fierce nexus]

MMMMM, well fun fact, the only thing I learned at collage was functions and string managment, That's it

[summer roost]

universities have general education requirements because the decision makers see value in producing well-rounded graduates. There's no conspiracy beyond that.

[fierce nexus]

no , but like is a pretty antique way of learning mentallity

[cedar dragon]

Take the college if the college pays it for you and take 4 to 6 years or just do certification exam

[fierce nexus]

well, that might be a good idea

[smoky quest]

There is so much more to it than that

[peak halo]

This doesn't have anything to do with antiquated teaching techniques, either.

[fierce nexus]

soo I don't get your point :C, Sowwy

[fierce nexus]

I know that, but that's the only thing I've learned at this semester

My homies get impresses by my code, and I'm like, yes is cool, but not that cool

[summer roost]

you not (yet) seeing the value of a course doesn't mean that it's worthless. It more likely means that you're lacking context or experience.

[pine sleet]

Knock out your geneds as dual enrolled high school students - you can focus on your major in college then

[spark cobalt]

Full CS courses would be overwhelming for freshman considering college teaches under the context you don't know a single thing

[fierce nexus]

well, the only cool courses RN are math and algos, besides that, dude, I have biology

[smoky quest]

College is also what you make of it.
The folks who end up the best are the ones who took the learning and went deeper and practiced. Students who just coast would miss a lot and only remember some factoids and have some issues down the road

[fierce nexus]

THAT'S WHY I HATE IT

[delicate bane]

lol a cs degree is not the same thing as a cs career. your initial statement was slightly misleading.

[fierce nexus]

Hey, I liked that mentallity :D

[vapid jay]

this kind of super specific specialisation only even comes into play in the last century or so

[fierce nexus]

sowwy, I'm not that good at english, I thought it was the asme

[vapid jay]

the reason so many old school intellectuals were polymaths is thats what it meant to be educated then

[cedar dragon]

i seen people who take a certain certifications like network and possibly network security for network engineer etc , other done cloud with aws exam, some with ethical hacking

[smoky quest]

That's also a mentality that leads to a bunch of students wondering why they have a hard time finding a job out of college while all their classmates have found one already

[delicate bane]

sociology was my 2nd major. hey, it could be worst — you couldve gotten history instead

[cedar dragon]

i got my associates and i still don't know wtf i learn,

[fierce nexus]

and why is that?

[smoky quest]

Because their classmates, who have worked harder, learned more and got more skills, will be picked first and have an easier time

[spark cobalt]

Typically the more CS heavy stuff happens in the latter 2 years when most students actually commit to a major

[fierce nexus]

Like quick question, is being that kind of students you describes, the ones that in there algo courses they are using turtle, while that dues is making a way to predict functions with bezier curves?

[spark cobalt]

Associates means very little lol.

[fierce nexus]

That gives me hope

[smoky quest]

We learned turtles in middle school. So that would be pretty bad in college

[fierce nexus]

well, welcome to my collage, the best in my country

[smoky quest]

which country is that?

[cedar dragon]

i got pervious notes, lectures, youtube from classes through network+, network+ security, linux+ so i can relearned while getting my bachelor degree

[smoky quest]

I would assume, if taught at college, that would be a short intro to help people catch up

[fierce nexus]

Guatemala

[fierce nexus]

well, that intro it's been around like 3 months

[summer roost]

https://docs.python.org/3/library/turtle.html is commonly used in intro programming courses to teach loops and control flow. If a college uses it it'd only be used at the very beginning, when teaching some students their first programming language.

[smoky quest]

yeah, I would expect to transition shortly to something more interesting

[cedar dragon]

i'm learning through here https://runestone.academy/ns/books/published/thinkcspy/index.html

[fierce nexus]

well, that's a good point, but imagine dudes like me (not saying cause of pride) that knows about basic programming stuff, suffering for 3 months

[summer roost]

🤷‍♂️ cool, you know more than some of the other students going into the program. That's helpful. It means you can spend less time on that material, and more time on other stuff that doesn't come as easily. You should expect that things will rapidly move onto topics that you don't already know, so enjoy it while it lasts.