career-advice

[maiden fog]

pomodoro and time blocking yes very good. this is perfect and easy enough i can describe the differences in a few sentences and make it seem like i am truly interested in fixing my weakness with real techniques

[potent stratus]

I mean - that's only good if you actually are interested in fixing a weakness. I wouldn't recommend saying you've been trying those things if you haven't since they're pretty popular and there's a very real possibility the interviewer follows it up with more questions

[coral vine]

Also I ghosted 4 coaching platform interviews that I put the hard work to sign up for a few weeks ago. It’s just fear and I took the first coaching platform soft reject pretty badly 😞

[maiden fog]

I actually do that when coding or working on CTFs. 30 minute blocks with short breaks in between. It really helps out with brain intensive problem solving tasks.

[maiden fog]

pogey you have nothing to fear but fear itself which can be scary but don't fear because being afraid won't get you what you want in life

[spark cobalt]

Consider researching and pursuing how to lower your anxiety. It generally starts with a healthy lifestyle.

Right now you're actively fighting against yourself. And the only person who can help yourself in this regard is you

Treat your body right, avoid caffeine/alcohol/nicotine, etc.

Look into hobbies that allow you to relax (not make you run away from your problems like what much of online is)

[coral vine]

I wake up early and work out at the gym every single morning for over a year now :/ I do HIIT to remove stress

I just feel like I’m learning so much in a short amount of time. I’m not pacing myself well and it leads to me not processing things and I get mentally stuck

[spark cobalt]

Assess what you can do to improve your efficiency. Explore different ways of studying and retaining information.

[coral vine]

But I’ve always been really intense. I’ll do very deep work for quick bursts and for several weeks then I always have a moment like now where I totally crash and burn hard

[spark cobalt]

For that, it sounds like more frequent but shorter breaks will help you out a lot

[coral vine]

I struggle to come out of hyperfixations. It’s been like this my whole life :/ a neurological thing !

[maiden fog]

i play banjo to calm my nerves

[spark cobalt]

I drive to calm my nerves lol

Banjo is nice

[potent stratus]

failing is fine and we don't talk about it enough. it sucks!! getting rejected always sucks. but it doesn't mean you suck. remember the things you do well and think about how long it took you to be really good at them. interviewing and applying for jobs is a skill. tailoring your resume is a skill. they all take practice.

[maiden fog]

i take it into other genres other than your typical bluegrass/smokey mountain stuff tho i love those styles as well. it is such an elegant instrument. I played guitar for years and i have my feet under me when it comes to music theory and fingerstyle technique so it was a natural transition

i put it on my resume under hobbies, hopefully it comes up because i can spew some insight into the Tao of the Banjo

[coral vine]

I do a thing for the past few weeks now where I force myself to do something new every Monday.

So far On Monday’s, I’ve gone to the beach, rock climbing, aquarium, zoo, new restaurants, museums, etc

[maiden fog]

i hate mondays.

[potent stratus]

what a fun way to push yourself out of your comfort zone and make Mondays suck less!

[coral vine]

I got sad cuz they said I did above average and that I got waitlisted. And the interview was great when we spoke.

But in the end, the competition is just fierce. People out there have experience and I’m starting new. They get picked first.

[maiden fog]

obstacles are stepping stones

[true harness]

are there potential issues with giving a salary range with a relatively unrealistic upper bound

[maiden fog]

i would like to think that the upper bound represents how much the senior most employee that is in that role makes

we pay from $12.50 / hour to $3.5m / year

[gritty rivet]

Yes, if it's unreasonably high you may be considered an unreasonable candidate. This is yet another reason I avoid giving any numbers until they have.

[true harness]

i guess i'll favor deflecting the question

[potent stratus]

I think it depends what you mean by relatively unrealistic. what I've done when giving a range is start with how much I'd actually take the role for - for argument and maths sake we'll say it's 110k. I then make my range something like "I'm looking to make 110 - 125 salary depending on been benefits and other compensation"

I give my lowest number that I'd do the job (reasonably happily, not in a life or death I need a job desperately scenario) for as the low end of my range and then add about 10%

[true harness]

i see

[gritty rivet]

I directly ask what salary range they have in mind as early as I can to pre-empt the question and avoid waisting time. If it's reasonable then I tell them it's reasonable and move on. Keep it vague until they love you and make their offer

[true harness]

welp, the interview is in a minute. we'll see how it goes 😔

[gritty rivet]

good luck!

[maiden fog]

yes good luck!!!

[pine sleet]

May all the questions in the interview be those you have studied

[maiden fog]

i still have 2 hours til interview time still need to shave. two of my weaknesses right there personal hygiene and procrastination really shining through right now

[coral vine]

Thanks all. I got a little crazy there cuz I couldn’t handle interviewing and I think within the next 2 weeks I will have completed an extra 3 interviews.

So I really needed to vent all my frustrations into the universe and each one of you were very helpful. I appreciate it!

[dreamy shadow]

If you keep saying this now, you're going to end up accidentally saying it in the interview lol

[true harness]

lol

[maiden fog]

my time management skills are second to none and my personal hygiene is beyond reproach.

[coral vine]

Sounds like real devotion. You’re in.

[true harness]

it seems to have gone well. she was driving her car while interviewing lol. it was super casual. she liked that i reached out to former interns 😤

[dreamy shadow]

Manager saved me with the "they're already working on high impact project"

[pine sleet]

based manager

[dreamy shadow]

Normally interviews that end early generally are really good or really bad. And if the interviewer is high enough (in the company structure), could just be a formality interview.

[true harness]

....high?

[dreamy shadow]

level wise

[true harness]

i still don't get it lol

[dreamy shadow]

Like: VP or director

[true harness]

you mean like, interviewee? or you mean like, at this stage, if they're speaking to a person high in the company, they pretty much have the job

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, at this stage after like 2-3 interviews in, speaking to a very senior position generally means they're the final or one of the final candidates for the job.

[true harness]

well, i spoke to the CTO 👀. then again, the company is only 4 people

[sleek egret]

ask if you can be a chief of something too

[dreamy shadow]

Oh, small companies are kinda different.

You basically interview with everyone at a company that small.

[sleek egret]

or just the baws

[true harness]

what's that

[sleek egret]

"baws" is pronounced sorta like "boss"

and what I meant was that at some small companies, the boss makes all hiring decisions without consulting anyone else

[vital wyvern]

I have returned from my final interview. More technical questions than I thought, but they said they were very impressed with my responses, so that was cool. Figure I'll write a quick post-mortem up for anyone that might be perusing.

• I think I gained credibility by explaining legitimate challenges I've had in my career instead of trying to paint them with a silver lining. I was able to talk about some struggles in leadership/mentoring individuals, real challenges regarding transitioning data solutions between systems etc.
• I think I lost credibility trying to dance around certain responses. I have a large amount of experience that I cannot go into detail about, and while I think everyone in the room understands that, it really hurts my ability to cite direct examples. I think overall I did a good job of recovering from this with information I can disclose, and I relied on drawing parallels to projects I can talk about instead.
• Probably don't say the price of what you're working on to a bank; I thought the figures on my resume were impressive. They were about .01% of what the bank handled in regards to assets in the last FY alone.

[dreamy shadow]

Anything listed on your resume is fair game to go into details.

[potent stratus]

it reads more like they had a legal reason they couldn't talk about it - ie classified work, business sensitive information, etc. at least to me

[dreamy shadow]

You can still speak on general concepts/go into more details even if the data/some methods is are classified. It's not like they were dissecting UFOs...unless?

[vital wyvern]

Same classification level.

The data I manipulated is classified from top to bottom, the job I did is perfectly safe to talk about. The issue arises when they want to talk about techniques for processing that data, mediums it was stored on, etc., that I cannot get into.

[maiden fog]

i can't remember if i am supposed to be there at 2 or 3 now..

[vital wyvern]

'I monitored metrics and reported those metrics,' makes for a very unimpressive statement. (I didn't ever say that, FWIW.)

[dreamy shadow]

Unless your using some proprietary classified software, applying a sum to the dataset is still the same.

[potent stratus]

it's a weird skill that most people won't have to develop. learning to interview and talk about your work where you're also worried about accidentally saying things you're legally not allowed to is stressful.

[dreamy shadow]

Sum is just an example. e.g. Monitored abnormal classified data that increased/decreased by X% would be more specific.

My point is you can go into details and dodge specifics about the data.

[potent stratus]

if the data is classified, that X% is also likely not really supposed to be public info, even without the context of what the data is

it's a weird game to play

[vital wyvern]

I won't get into the details for the same reason I didn't in the interview, but many of the metrics we report on are also classified. I am well versed at talking around that information, but what I need to get better at is not letting the conversation walk into that direction in the first place.

[dreamy shadow]

Without context, X% tells nothing. If I said: I monitor the data for increases above 5%, what does that tell you about the data?

I would maybe put projects you can talk more openly about then.

[potent stratus]

nothing. very likely does not matter and is still classified information

[vital wyvern]

Yeah, I need to get more open projects under my belt. They were impressed at some of the analysis that I had done on my own time.

[dreamy shadow]

I think I didn't explain my end clearly. Calculating the metrics are most likely applicable in any industry. They are transferable skills.

[vital wyvern]

If you put calculating metrics on your resume, you're not gonna' get a callback 😛 That's Analysis, that's the entire job lol

[potent stratus]

it's hard to talk about things, especially things that you (hopefully) found interesting that you got to work on without wanting to talk about why it was interesting. it's a hard line to walk

[vital wyvern]

Questions included how wide/long the data was (not classified) and what anomalies I was trying to detect within that data (classified).

[dreamy shadow]

"Calculating the metrics" is just a place holder for all the parts.

While the anomalies in the data I worked with is classified, in a standard dataset I would look out for: X, Y, Z.

[vital wyvern]

That's more or less precisely how the conversation went lol

[dreamy shadow]

e.g. Missing data, outliers, etc.

Could be they were just curious

[vital wyvern]

Yes, I think most people are curious about the specific job I did lol

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, if I were the interviewer, I would give a hypothetical situation then to see how the interviewer would handle it instead.

[true harness]

i mean every time you say "i can't tell you", that just makes you want to know more lol

[dreamy shadow]

I mean, just because it's classified doesn't mean it's actually interesting. Knowing specific fuel inputs for a F16 fighter jet could be classified data.

[vital wyvern]

That's how we found a middle ground. I offered an alternative hypothetical situation that was appropriate for the conversation, and drew parallels to projects that I had in the open on my resume.

[dreamy shadow]

Unless you're dissecting UFOs, then you better tell us.

[vital wyvern]

I do not dissect UFO's, but that would be cool.

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, I think that's 100% fair. Some interviewers are just bad, nothing you can do about that.

[vital wyvern]

They were pretty cool people, I'd definitely pick their brains on a personal level even if the interview doesn't end up being what I wanted. Wrote down their names, might wait for the interview results then reach out on LinkedIn.

[dreamy shadow]

lmao, reached out to the wrong person trying to solve this package on the server issue.

Same first name, different last name. I blame the other person for not specifying last name.

[vital wyvern]

Air Force mail servers were kicked off line because of autoreply automatically replying all to an e-mail that was accidentally sent to every US Air Force Active/Guard/Reserve/Contractor a few years ago.

IT is important kiddos. If SWE doesn't work out, go tinker with mail rules.

[dreamy shadow]

Please don't remind me. Our company changed from one git provider to another. The amount of reply all emails from the announcements, smh. Especially the reply all to ask to be removed from the email chain.

[vital wyvern]

If you ever hit reply-all to an email that is organization wide (or even like 10+ members tbh) I immediately chalk you up as technologically incapable.

[dreamy shadow]

More like anything that's more of a FYI email. Our company is large enough that some regular projects are 10+ people on emails

[delicate bane]

bruhhh 💀

[near ocean]

But thats the only fun time to hit reply all

[dreamy shadow]

Oh ffs, apparently I wasn't CCed in the emails that informed everyone of the upgrades affecting jupyterhub and to test scripts.

The one I was CCed only mentioned production.

[umbral echo]

ig

[tame briar]

Hello there, i'm currently studying biotechnology engineering, I'll would like to know how to learn bioinformatics cause' I see it interesting and I'm looking for some courses for it, does anyone have a suggestion?

[delicate bane]

have you seen this? https://github.com/ossu/bioinformatics

i probs wouldnt recommend the full curriculum since there is probably already a good amount of overlap with your schooling. just do the parts that seem interesting to you and go from there.

[maiden fog]

interview seemed to go well. I trailed off on one question and was able to reel it back in. Trailed off on another and didn't reel it back in well enough, however I showed interest and passion. Talked about these cyber security competitions. Turns out they will let me shadow different people in the department which consists of support, network administration, application analysts, and a security team.

[sleek egret]

or maybe they're shadowing you?

have you considered that? hmmm?

[maiden fog]

actually yes I did

either way it can be mutually beneficial. I mentioned ansible and don't think they know what that is

any good application analyst would find value in that software

[delicate bane]

they probably use something else

[maiden fog]

right

[delicate bane]

if ever that seems to be the case in an interview/conversation, you usually want to zoom out and go big picture like "oh its an IaC tool or configuration management tool, etc."

[maiden fog]

they asked about a python program I am working on that is basically a less featureful/secure tool so it was kind of a segway

good practice regardless. they are currently hiring app analyst II, should I apply?

[tame briar]

Thanks dude

[delicate bane]

np. i would not recommend the bioinformatics route due to low pay but it just depends on your country/job market/passion for the field

[tame briar]

Is that real? I recently saw that bioinformatics it's in high demand at least for the field of investigation

[tame briar]

Also, in enterprise field it's not a lot required

[delicate bane]

note: demand does not equal pay. so keep that in mind.

and these research roles, especially if they are more academic in nature, do not tend to pay well. but if youre into academia, then go for it

[tame briar]

You're right 🗿

[dreamy shadow]

My old boss liking every post on linkedin about how academia pay is terrible.

[delicate bane]

lol was he in academia in his past life or something? whats his deal

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, PhD.

[delicate bane]

tsk tsk. we really underpay everyone in academia but what can you do. this is the world we live in — where industry may or may not take what academia produces and makes bank

yeah its kinda wild how poorly compensated they are

[tame briar]

Well I actually don't like the enterprise world

[delicate bane]

then bioinformatics might be a good fit. there are graduate programs too — have you looked into those?

[spark cobalt]

Hard to evaluate in terms of money

[tame briar]

Actually no

Are them different from master or doc?

[sleek egret]

good to see that everything worked out

and happy holi everyone!

[spark cobalt]

Happy Holi! Company's about to celebrate it in 5 mins with a mini party

❤️💜💛💚💙

[deft herald]

Yeah our india office was closed yesterday

[sleek egret]

I thought today was holi

[thorn oar]

timezones

india is usually ahead of america by 12 hours

[spark cobalt]

Makes sense.

[pine sleet]

jet lag crazy when i go to india and back

[spark cobalt]

I'll be in India for a while in a year or so

Maybe aiming for like 6 months or a year

[delicate bane]

after you go to japan?

[delicate bane]

no

[sleek egret]

no one is ahead of america! america is always #1!

[delicate bane]

anyway

just heard a podcast about how there are some peeps affected by these tech layoffs that arent going back to work for another company.

theyre going for other pursuits. which is interesting to think about imo.

[opaque brook]

Hi there,

I am a software engineer working as a web developer for 3 years. I am from Pakistan. I have got this job right after my graduation. Now a days I am worried and confused about my career in future. Can some guide me through this it would be a great regard.

[elfin sparrow]

does anyone know if there is a way to make a program to apply to a bunch of job openings without doing the work to fill in info each time?

[opaque brook]

Depends on which portal you want to apply

And if the process of applying for multiple jobs on that portal is same everytime you can write a program using selenium which will do the work

[distant vigil]

Hey all masters student currently doing cyber sec internship, how do you know when you can apply to junior developer jobs? What are common tasks?

[elfin sparrow]

but that is possible, cool

[opaque brook]

Yes it is

[elfin sparrow]

i see workday a lot

[near ocean]

Its usually against the ToS of whatever site youre scraping, but i mean, its not exactly illegal

[elfin sparrow]

sooooooo its possible but not advised?

[near ocean]

I dont know if its possible but since its definitely against ToS you shouldnt talk about it in the server

[elfin sparrow]

I’ve seen ppl automate dif tasks in apps so I thought there could be some connection

But I’ll stop now

[still condor]

Suppose one quits one's job. Is there ever a reason to agree to an "exit interview" or otherwise explain the detail why you're quitting?

[near ocean]

Not really, i guess you dont "burn bridges" by saying no outright
If you do agree I would keep things vague, something something new opportunities, change of environment, that kind of deal

Or maybe this is bad advice and you should say no, i was kind of asked "exit interview" type questions when i handed my notice and thats what i did but they still turned assholish

[vital wyvern]

I think it depends on how connected the individuals you would be doing the interview with are, and the circumstances behind it. If the company didn't do anything egregious, I don't mind offering some feedback. And if it's a smaller industry or a well connected company, I think you still have to kind of placate to try to avoid being put in a situation where you have to explain a negative word of mouth later.

Conversely, if you're quitting for a significant or egregious reason, typically you can just politely decline and let them know you're not comfortable; or refer them to internal documentation of specific events.

[still condor]

well, in my case it's more like... a lot of small external problems, manifesting from bad organization

there's too much detail which, knowing me, will turn into a wild rant

so I guess I don't gain anything by conducting such a monologue

[vital wyvern]

No worries, I get it. If you don't want to do it or don't feel comfortable, by all means, don't.
But at the same time, don't let it be an emotion-fueled decision either. Weigh the positives and negatives of the situation and make a decision based on the facts. 🤷‍♂️

I've had a few subordinates that burnt out and went down swinging and I had absolutely zero idea that they had felt that way because their feedback had never made its way up the chain to me.

[still condor]

What are the positives for me?

[vital wyvern]

For you specifically? Maybe limited. But being forthright and respectful in your feedback can be a positive; if you're able to convey the main motivation why you're leaving, you can typically mend potentially rocky bridges by having a human conversation with the exit interview panel. "Look guys, I enjoyed working here, I respect you all. But for these <issues>, I just cannot reconcile staying with the organization. I'm here to elaborate if you're willing to listen and intend to improve, and I want those that follow me in my position to be free from these issues." kinda stuff.

Will it get you a golden review at your next job from your manager? That depends on your relationship. But it's not as absolute as 'This will or will not ensure that'.

Ethically, if you're given a venue to try and address what's making you leave, I think you should take it. From the human perspective of all of it, I completely understand wanting to just move on.

I should note, I have an unconventional background, so maybe I'm not the sole person that should be giving advice here. I bet recursive_error has some sage words regarding this situation.

[still condor]

I don't really think I have some kind of ethical contract with my employer 🤷 it's just a business

[vital wyvern]

I'm not implying you're contractually obligated, but if you can improve the environment for those that follow, ethics is still relevant.

[still condor]

well I mean, in a 'social contract' sense

[vital wyvern]

Sure, you're absolutely correct. I can just paint it from my perspective; I managed a team of around ~68 people for a year, and I'd be pretty upset if someone was leaving without telling me why, and none of my people had explained why to me. I can't fix what I don't know about.

[still condor]

Well, maybe you're different. But in my case, I seriously doubt that my workplace would apply any of my vague points
If they really cared, they would ask such questions of those who are still employed, and listened to my suggestions that I already gave. Especially given that I only occupy a very minor role

[vital wyvern]

I completely understand that sentiment-- do what you feel is right. Just don't make a decision based on emotion either. 🤷‍♂️ I'm not in your situation, but you seem level headed enough. If it comes down to it and you don't want to, don't. Just trying to offer a bit of perspective that might not be considered.

[still condor]

yeah I understand

[delicate bane]

good luck bud

[rustic bay]

PSA to job seekers, DONT USE A CHAT BOT to write to cover letter and answers to pre-interview quetions. WE CAN TELL

Context: my employer posted a remote data science position and over 15 answers to a complex question are virtually IDENTICAL on what should be an experience/opinion piece.

UGH, that people think this is a good idea is scary to me

[still condor]

it's posts like this that make me feel I'm not the absolute worst

[rustic bay]

Seriously, my mind is blown by how stupid people are

[still condor]

well I guess they demonstrated some usage of data science-based services

[rustic bay]

but not their abilty to think

[true harness]

they demonstrated it, just not very positively

[rustic bay]

I asked the interview team if they could send memes in reponse

[still condor]

courtesy of beta.character.ai:

> Please help me write a rejection letter for a job candidate. They failed the initial screening stage by submitting an AI-generated cover letter.

I can do that for you. I love helping people by writing. What would you want the letter to say? Would you want it to be mean or kind or something in between? And what were the red flags in the letter that lead you to believe that the cover letter was generated by AI?

> Very mean.

The problem with a very mean letter is that it can lead to the reader not wanting to work for your company. Would you want a letter that is so mean it makes them cry or one that is just rude while keeping it professional?

> The whole point is that they're not going to be working for my company.

Then we should go all the way and make them cry.

> Please show me the letter!

Thank you for your application for a job at our prestigious law firm. We pride ourselves on providing premier service to our clients and having staff that are the best of the best. However, we were deeply disappointed by your application and cover letter. We feel that you lack the experience needed to succeed in our work environment and would not be able to contribute to the team in a meaningful way. We wish you all the best in your future endeavors and encourage you to keep working hard and striving to improve yourself. Unfortunately, we cannot offer you a position at our firm.

[rustic bay]

my coworker has chat answer every question with 2 personalities, the second is specificed to answer is if it has no ethical or morals. you get fun answers that way. good way to vent quietly

[vital wyvern]

Receiving a response that an organization was deeply disappointed by my application and cover letter would absolutely destroy me lol

[still condor]

We at Python Discord were deeply disappointed by your ping and reply.

😔

[vital wyvern]

I only recently found out that people don't like pings on replies, and even moreso, that you could disable that functionality in the first place.

[still condor]

oh I don't have an issue with pings, to be clear

in fact, I wish I could turn all silent-replies into ping-replies

this is what I see as a moderator

[vital wyvern]

That goes in the resume.

[still condor]

wdym 👀

well, I'm just lazy and I ignore them

one time it reached 1000

[vital wyvern]

You can probably spin moderating this place into a reasonable SWE bullet. Subject matter expert in 350k+ member Python community, responsible for <blah> devoting <blah> hours to the education and development of <words>.

I'm not good at writing resume bullets off the dome, do not make fun of me please.

[true harness]

the person i interviewed with said "i look forward to working with you" 👀. no offer yet though 🤞

[vital wyvern]

I just got an e-mail saying I have an interview (which already occurred, yesterday) beginning an hour ago.

I am confusion. I suspect it's administrative in nature, to log that the interview happened. And it just happened to generate with this timestamp.

[true harness]

ask lol

[vital wyvern]

Already shot off an email

I read the e-mail at first and I was like "Bruh this is the fourth interview, there's no fucking way."

[still condor]

🔥 Subject matter expert and Community Moderator day and night in the BIGGEST python community IN THE WHOLE UNIVERSE for more than 2 years.

[vital wyvern]

Looks good to me, onto the resume it goes.

[still condor]

speaking of... I realize I have very little to actually put on my resume

as in, skills or specific experience

(I do have a job but like... on this job I... wrote code?)

[vital wyvern]

I was able to draw on my last 8 years of performance reports. The interview panel said they were very impressed with the knowledgebase I have, which is... a little surprising, because it's just Java, Python, R, and VBA.

[still condor]

Bonus patience points for writing VBA for money 💀

[near ocean]

VBA job you said?

[rustic bay]

@still condor

[vital wyvern]

My organization had no database or analytics tools that I could access, so often my dataset was quite literally copy pasted, painfully, line by line, from whatever source I needed.

Learning VBA made cleaning all that up after giving myself RSI with Ctrl+C Ctrl+V a lot less painful.

[near ocean]

VBA is based, if only it had a better dev environment

[still condor]

...and better documentation

[vital wyvern]

It was nice for workflows in the MS sphere, where I could dump an entire analysis into an Excel, press run, and email all stakeholders with relevant reports, build my dashboard, and have it uploaded to SharePoint with zero action on my part.

[still condor]

but yeah the development environment is significantly lacking compared to even like... Thonny

or IDLE

ok, it's a bit like IDLE, except IDLE doesn't die from death if you have an infinite loop

[near ocean]

In my previous job i was in charge of an excel product for companies' board of directors that would automagically generated a whole bunch of wild charts and tables and shit
It was bombin

[vital wyvern]

Oh it's terrible. I'd rather learn another language from scratch to accomplish those tasks than use VBA again.

[still condor]

I am also sorry for comparing Thonny to the VBA editor, thonny is based

[vital wyvern]

That's more or less what I did. And I left, and apparently... the ability to maintain it left with me.
Despite hours...
and hours...
And hours...
of documentation.

[near ocean]

The ditched the project as soon as i handed my notice
No one could maintain it there either

[still condor]

Imagine being a company that created VSCode and the VBA development environment

🤷

anyway... this is mildly off topic

Also I just realized that I'm wildly violating the speed limit

[coral vine]

But better than being ghosted Dx

[vital wyvern]

Don't moderate and drive, we would prefer you in one piece.

[near ocean]

💨

[vital wyvern]

Spend enough time on Tinder and it doesn't sting as bad.

[still condor]

Is there any half-agreed upon difference between different 'ranks' of programmers? (like Junior/Middle/Senior and maybe some shades between them)

I'm trying to figure out whether I am more suitable for "junior" positions or "middle" positions

[coral vine]

Ok the extra tinge of troll here definitely hurts more than being ghosted 👏

[near ocean]

Youre not a junior my guy turbofish

Go get that bigger paycheck, you deserve it

[true harness]

the title varies depending on company. best bet is to just look at the description

[still condor]

Why do you think so?

[near ocean]

I glanced at your github

[still condor]

and

it didn't change much since the application to my first job lmao

I guess it sounds impressive on paper, but like... on the real job I am kind of a dummy

[near ocean]

You were underpaid in your first job then
Im comparing you to other juniors in my current company and last

[still condor]

oh I am definitely underpaid, even by the standards of my mildly shithole place

[still condor]

and I'm only given "junior-type tasks" and I kinda have to be guided on everthing

[rustic bay]

same, by about 30k, but i stay for the pension

[still condor]

yall have pension lmao

[rustic bay]

also is a team of 2 i am a female and paid 10k less than the male

[buoyant seal]

there is something that can be extrapollated from reading books like Code Complete by McConnel
but in general we can say, that different companies understand different levels under Junior/Middle/Senior
For outsourcing/startups there is one grade
for other companies with different standards it can be different grade.

AWS though just fires all Juniors who in 4 years did not make it to Middle rank according to its standards.
So we can presume Junior can remain Junior even with 8+ years of experience (i think i saw people like that)
but usually they become Middle people within 3-4 years.

Each person is pretty much growing individually... which complicates further edvaluation.
Ergh... you know there are certain grading tables in my company, there are explicitely written things needed to be known for each developer rank
Plus same i remember seeing in Dropbox table the same

TLDR: it is possible to evaluate dev being Junior/Middle/Senior, but each company has its own grading system.
It is possible to extrapolate something generic out of those systems though probably.

[rustic bay]

govenrmetn work has some bonuses, all free health insurnace

[near ocean]

We were hiring recently, for a junior and a mid
The people who got in are a junior who only finished half our interview questions and a mid dev with 7 years exp

[vital wyvern]

If you're not moving up in GS/WG in accordance with the people around you, you can definitely reach out to government oversight orgs to get that resolved @rustic bay

[rustic bay]

GS/WG?

[still condor]

well that doesn't bring me any closer to understanding 😂

[vital wyvern]

N...never mind. I forgot America is not the only country in the world. (That's a joke playing on my ignorance, not vice versa. Please don't take this to mean something remotely political.)

[still condor]

Yeah you forgot Canada

[rustic bay]

I am in usa, still dont know GS WG

[vital wyvern]

Are you a federal employee or a state employee?

[rustic bay]

State (also is there a filter slowing chat it wont let me send messgaes too often)

[still condor]

We have pension, but it's very small and like...

• average male lifespan = 64 years
• pension payments for males start at = 65 years

[vital wyvern]

Mm, it depends on state then. Some states will follow federal structure for wage grade/general schedule employees. The two acronyms I listed are federal employee pay scheduling.

[still condor]

||it's usually after realizing stuff like this that people stop paying taxes 🤡 ||

[rustic bay]

They recently combined like 40 different positions into an "analysts" category so they have more flexibility.

[still condor]

What would you say is the difference then? (besides the number of your questions they can answer)

[vital wyvern]

Ah yes, the catchall 'analyst' role.

[rustic bay]

My pay problem comes from i was hired in a different agency and merged so the guy getting paid more was hired under different policies. It was not bioas but in 4 years they have yet to fix it

Anyways if any competent folks are looking for a Data Analyst , data science government job, fun team, not a terribly heavy load...but frustrating state government problems...

[near ocean]

The junior is somewhat comfortable with the language
The mid dev is comfortable with the language and other parts of the stack, they've been around long enough to touch many parts of a project, from deployment, to completing feature requests, to dealing with existing features and generally they get things done faster because they've been around longer

How young are you if you dont mind? @still condor
This could just be because youre just young, but you shouldnt undersell yourself

[still condor]

I am about 69

[true harness]

woah i thought you were like, mid 30s

[still condor]

So what kind of tasks would a "junior" do in your configuration?

[still condor]

bruh I know right, I am so fucking old. pretty much decomposing

If I don't shave for a while I can buy booze without showing my ID

[near ocean]

They would take on the same tasks as everyone else, except maybe designing/prototyping new projects
The difference is how long they would take to finish a ticket and how much hand holding they would need

[still condor]

well I take too long, and I end up needing quite a lot of hand holding

though I realize that it's not necessarily a me problem

[near ocean]

Thats not up to you to decide lol, people usually underestimate themselves quite a lot

How much you think you struggle is not how much you actually struggle

Theres high school kids and uni freshers in here that are more capable than the average junior dev, i think its cause youre young that youre having these doubts

[still condor]

I guess one real problem is that I'm completely unfamiliar with many technologies being used

[near ocean]

fwiw im having the same thoughts but then i remember im a react monkey and thoughts go away

[still condor]

i don even know react 💀

[near ocean]

You dont wanna 💀

[still condor]

I know only basic SQL (and I couldn't figure out how to learn it more in-depth), I don't know all the widely used Python libraries (Django, Flask, Pandas, Celery, whatever else do you have, "10 years of commercial experience in FastAPI?"), I don't really know any frontend technology (besides the base JavaScript/TypeScript, a tiny bit of Vue, and quite a lot of Elm which nobody uses anyway)

[near ocean]

Whats the new job you got lined up? Webdev related?

[still condor]

lined up?

well I haven't chosen anything yet

[near ocean]

You're planning to quit without a new job?

[still condor]

not yet!

I'm in the analysis paralysis stage

(my favourite hobby)

...But realistically yeah it's webdev, there aren't many options, especially here

[near ocean]

When i got my most recent job I had python, some js, VBA and powershell in my tool belt, i got in purely with my python, learning everything else on the job, its much easier this way

I wouldnt worry about the breadth of your knowledge at this point

[still condor]

I guess I'm focusing too much on the "requirements" ||🤡|| of the jobs. Which idk what's up with them

[vital wyvern]

I say this a lot but see if you can connect with people at the organization(s) you're targeting to start tailoring your resume and skillset to that as well.

[rustic bay]

I would just apply around and interview, remember an interview is also for you to determine if you like them

[vital wyvern]

If you can tolerate staying at your workcenter while you develop some skills, that might be a wise decision as well. Pandas/NumPy/MPL/SciPy/etc for general DA rolls is about skin deep as far as knowledge goes, being able to spit out a half decent data frame of information is probably enough to function. Not sure how it goes for webdev, etc., but a lot of those skills do get honed on the job a bit.

[true harness]

like me? 🥺👉👈. oops i thought this was ot 😬

[still condor]

yes, mx. average junior dev

💣

[true harness]

the thing to keep in mind is that you don't need to have all the requirements. you just need to have more than the other applicants. it's like a cost function. you just need to be closer to their ideal than other people

[near ocean]

Unironically yes

[still condor]

Actually I feel like you've built a very wrong image of me. I am a master impostor

[hasty copper]

Hey I'm about done my 12th state board and I haven't started learning German and everyone says that after 12th u need to go for studienkolleg so I'm thinking of doing it in India... So can u tell me in which university or college should I join in to do studienkolleg

[pastel thunder]

have got multiple rejects, new response rate for me is 1/30. , yeah the numerator didnt increase since last 1/10.

[ancient willow]

Studienkolleg isn't possible from India. You do it when you come to Germany before your Bachelor's. School education in Germany is of 13 years instead of 12 in India. So you do that 1 extra year in StudienKolleg and then apply for a place in Bachelor's. You do this because 12 years of Indian education isn't considered equivalent to Arbitur

[sleek egret]

13 is an unlucky number

[pastel thunder]

i was born 13

[sleek egret]

don't worry, it just gets worse as you get older

[pastel thunder]

well, that explain the rejects too

[still condor]

as an old person, I fully agree

[outer granite]

What's the difference between BS & BE in Computer Science? Which one should I choose Software Engineering or Computer Science as Bachelors.

[sleek egret]

it won't matter. to 99% of employers, they are equivalent

[outer granite]

Why are they two separate Bachelor programs then?

[sleek egret]

because the engineering school wanted in on the fun? because the school of arts & sciences thought they could get more funding? who knows. what does it matter?

[hasty copper]

Do studienkolleg teach me German too?? And how much do I need to pay??

[weary crag]

Maybe that’s why some parts of Germany only have 12 years 😄

[ancient willow]

I guess yes they will teach you German as a foreign language or in some other module. I'm not sure about payments and fees, kindly check it as per your requirement

[unborn bridge]

Anyone able to throw a job offer at me on the spot? Gotta find a way to pay rent in 3 weeks

[pastel thunder]

did web devs on career page forgot to add code to store resume?

or do they do mobile_num++

[peak halo]

This server isn't the place to ask for that. But it's also not a viable job hunting strategy in general. Sorry that you're struggling.

[true harness]

all jobs require you to have some skills. it's not really feasible to hire someone without testing those skills

[unborn bridge]

I'm at a loss for what to do. I've applied for SWE jobs, QA, entry level DevOps, and I get no responses. I've also applied for several local labor jobs like cleaning or stocking shelves, and the only response I ever got was a generic rejection letter from wal-mart. Their only requirement was to be 18 or older. It's as funny as it is soul-crushingly stressful =/

[sleek egret]

are you 18 or older?

[unborn bridge]

I'm 36 with 13 years of SWE experience

[sleek egret]

ah. well, I strongly urge you to start hitting up your contacts (i.e. people you've worked with previously)

[true harness]

could also be an issue with your resume, though probably not since you've already gotten a job 🤔

[sleek egret]

even many companies with "hiring freezes" are still hiring replacements for people who leave

and having a referral sometimes lets you skip most of the HR filtering

[unborn bridge]

I've handed resumes to my friends who are currently software developers. One mentioned a hiring freeze, but another said they'd pass my resume up the chain (6 months ago). They're willing to be good references for me so I think I have that covered, but I just never get any responses from my applications. Whenever I have a conversation with someone about it, especially in person, they always say the same thing: "Well, it makes no sense that you can't find a job. I don't know what to say."

[sleek egret]

well, I will make this suggestion: you shouldn't even bother applying to junior positions. with 10+ years of experience, you are overqualified and they will toss you out during the first cut. may I ask where you are? if you're in an region without a lot of developer jobs, have you tried for remote work?

[dreamy shadow]

lol don't apply for remote. Way too much competition at this point in time. Try to apply for positions that are hybrid, less competition there.

[sleek egret]

true but that also restricts your job search quite a bit

[dreamy shadow]

Or, what I should have said was: Focus more on hybrid/full time in person roles over remote. Apply for them all but spend more time on local positions.

[unborn bridge]

I'm in Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada. "Tech capital" of the province is what they call it. I've applied for pretty much every local software job I could find over the past 6 months, and a handful of remote jobs that were in line with my previous work (C++ desktop applications). I've also found people on reddit who were local but working remote, and they've given me contact information for people who were initially interested, but then stopped responding to me shortly after.

[buoyant seal]

drop resume?

[unborn bridge]

I'm also part of some local tech clubs, and I've had conversations with people in hiring positions who simply wouldn't consider me for positions because I lacked the required number of years of experience using their particular tools. I talked to them about learning as I go, and they said it just wouldn't work out. It was rather surprising, as I felt confident I could do it (it was devops).

[unborn bridge]

Sure, I'll take all the advice I can get. Let me remove the references I'm using for privacy reasons

[dreamy shadow]

You can remove names of companies, contact info too.

[true harness]

hmmm. so i applied to this place for a software developer internship. they emailed me saying i looked like a good fit for a different position, QA testing, which is not really what i want to do. is it reasonable to respond by saying i would prefer the role i applied to?

[unborn bridge]

This is the latest resume I created. I try to tailor each one for the role I'm applying for, although that mostly just means the cover letter changes and the skills section generally remains the same (maybe re-ordered a bit). It was for a web developer role.

hmm, discord just kinda jiggles when I try to enter the link

Sorry, some kind of slowmode thing... https://github.com/pcsagan/resume/blob/main/Resume Redacted.pdf

[pastel thunder]

dont you think its bland, it was laborious to look at

[unborn bridge]

I don't think I have any skills judging resumes. It's a document that conveys all the information I would want if I try to put myself in the shoes of someone hiring for a team.

[true harness]

my understanding is that resumes are usually one page, 2 if you have lots of experience

[dreamy shadow]

🚪

[pastel thunder]

judging by exp, if you follow proper appealing format, you probably will get many calls

[dreamy shadow]

It's more of your resume tells me nothing about what you have done.

[true harness]

a lot of your skills are taking up too much vertical space. you could compress them and use the horizontal space you have. put your skills onto one line, and cut out the fluff. e.g. don't say "containerization with docker", just say "docker". people know what docker is for

[dreamy shadow]

Something like: Improved team's productivity by 50% with custom python & C++ utilities scripts.

Kill personal traits section completely

[pastel thunder]

have you thought of making something like this?https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs

[true harness]

a resume is all about 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏. saying you did something is less impressive than giving concrete numbers, like skyglow said

[pastel thunder]

edited, lmao

[delicate bane]

usually >10 years gets you that 2nd page. (all relevant to US job market; i know other places like EU is more lax on page count)

[dreamy shadow]

I think they can compress into 1 page given they've held 2 positions over the 13 YoE. Also bullet points please.

[true harness]

the biggest compression is going to be from collapsing the skills into a few lines, separated by section

[unborn bridge]

Jake's resume does appear far more condensed. I really appreciate the input, and I'll see what I can do to conform to all your suggestions.

[dreamy shadow]

Biggest would be to shift skills INTO the work experience section. Like, red shouldn't be included given it's too basic. Blue should be included into the bullet points.
Like above, the python scripts would signify the knowledge of python.

Same with Technical skills sections, integrated into bullet points.

[sleek egret]

at your level of experience, I'd also do a bit more detail. Something like "Expert in Python, C and C++. Intermediate competency in C# and Java."

[sleek egret]

Also, I suggest starting out with your leadership items in the cover letter rather than technical.

[hasty copper]

My 12th is about to end and I haven't started learning German yet. So I was thinking after my boards are completed should I start learning German and write studienkolleg for summer semester and ig at that time there are few chances that I might loose 1 Year of my studies coz summer semester starts at next year March Ig and I also don't know the exact date when are admissions open for summer semester... Or do my 1 Year bachelors degree in respective country then apply for bachelors degree in Germany... So guys please help me out of this thing my mind is getting fucked up...

[sleek egret]

Upon going through your resume, I think you need to tighten things up a bit and focus on a fewer items. I notice that you have a lot of "I did X" items. I suggest items more along the lines of "I did X which led to Y results"

also, I'd suggest dividing up your employment history into sub-sections. For your 1st job (2007-2018) you just have a bunch of 1 line bullet points. Divide it up into major sections (project, job responsibility, whatever) and then in each section list a handful of major accomplishments.

your experience section could easily be twice as long once you tighten up the skills listing as skyglow suggested

[buoyant seal]

@unborn bridge disagreing. GitHub actions is important skill to mention for your goal of DevOps transition
Docker too

About Auth stuff not caring 🤔 too basic indeed

[unborn bridge]

In this resume template that was posted there's a Projects section. I've created (but not published in any way) a SPA webapp for a fake business with a public section for advertising/information, and a private section for issue tracking and maintaining a quality management system (document generation and hosting). I've also got some half-finished games laying around using a 3D C++ game engine that I really like. Would you recommend that I list those under a Projects section? I could talk about them all day, but I couldn't show anyone a finished product.

[buoyant seal]

@unborn bridge not seeing technologies to assert your claim of knowing continuous delivery btw

[sleek egret]

I recommend you go into more detail and provide some color for your work experience

[buoyant seal]

@unborn bridge nowhere seeing Linux.. kind of must to have for DevOps

[sleek egret]

that is the most important thing. your list of tasks makes it very difficult to get a feel for what you've done

[distant rivet]

Hello everyone, I am a 3rd year student of Applied Electronics and I would like to learn programming on microcontrollers, that is, the embedded part. Can you suggest some starter project ideas and some apps I can test? So Proteus and AVR studio would be good? I want you to work on this part with bits. Thank you and I look forward to any reply in private or here.

[sleek egret]

you want to highlight how what you did helped your company and start emphasizing a few leadership points as well

[sleek egret]

To be blunt, some of the items you list under experience look like things you've just left there from 10 years ago. I mean "participated in group meetings"? really?

[buoyant seal]

U a removing important context

[unborn bridge]

Well to be fair it was meant to convey my familiarity with agile practices, not that I existed in the same room as others

[true harness]

hmmm. so i applied to this place for a software developer internship. they emailed me saying i looked like a good fit for a different position, QA testing, which is not really what i want to do. is it reasonable to respond by saying i would prefer a more development focused role?

[sleek egret]

you seem to be going for "comprehensive". basic process stuff may have been important when you were starting out, but people will simply assume it now. at this point in your career you have to show accomplishments, leadership skills and highlight your distinctiveness.

you're not 25 anymore 🙂

[buoyant seal]

That is what meetings were about 🤔

[white relic]

it can't hurt

[sleek egret]

so those items puzzled, you, eh?

[unborn bridge]

I wouldn't convey it that way, as it sounds like an ultimatum. Even if it is, I'd word it as a polite request to reconsider. There's also the possibility of transitioning into the role you want after a short period of time - having your foot in the door and the ear of the manager goes a long way. If you have better options available, then I'd only respond to them with a polite apology saying you've found something more suitable to your goals.

[true harness]

it's an internship, so there isn't really a "after a short period of time"

[unborn bridge]

Oh I see. Do you have other options available, or is it this or nothing? If there's no downside to rejecting it then it's just a matter of preference I suppose.

[dreamy shadow]

With 13 YoE as a developer, if your listing github as your skills. I would dock points. That should be among the basic competencies at that point.

[true harness]

well...i have interviews at other places, but no actual offers yet. so i'm sorta like, considering just going for it even if it's not what i'm looking for

[unborn bridge]

I still suggest being overly polite, you never know where you'll be or who will remember you in the future

[sleek egret]

how very canadian😋

[unborn bridge]

Also, if there's no downside in leaving shortly after starting, then there's no downside in accepting

[true harness]

but if they say these roles aren't available or something, is it sort of awkward if i say i'd like the qa testing role? i guess my story would be like "i'm glad to have this qa tester thing, but i'd rather do development" ?

[coral vine]

I'm having trouble answering this interview question :/

If a manager assigns you a task, how do you ensure that you understand all the requirements completely?

I feel like my answer is too lengthy, random, chaotic. but it's how i approach things and it always works out perfectly fine

Can I get some help please?

Will I auto-fail my interview if I say the truth that I approach things chaotically?

[true harness]

initial reaction: that question sucks. i would probably respond by asking them to clarify if i feel i'm missing something and repeat back my interpretation of what i think they said. if i'm still unclear i'll ask them to give an example if applicable or something like that

[unborn bridge]

I'd say that I would read through all the requirements to ensure they made sense to me, then I would describe the end result to the manager and ask them if that's what they expect from me

[zealous path]

(Take it with a grain of salt)
But couldn’t leaving early on several jobs make you seem like someone who doesn’t know what they want so potentially terrible as a long term hire as you could leave early on and restart the whole interview process.

[dreamy shadow]

They key point is to check back in with the manager to ensure that goals are aligned. Requirements can change over time.

[true harness]

well any single answer isn't necessarily bad, you just need to portray it in a good light. if you can say you approach things chaotically, but this is actually good because y, it could be an ok answer

[dreamy shadow]

Depends on the duration, if it's short, you can just list the new job and not list the one you were only temp at.

[zealous path]

Yeah…. That would be smart

[unborn bridge]

I don't know exactly what interships entail, or whether different companies talk to each other about the interns they work with, but I would at guess that they don't and that this person is best off chasing their ambitions than worrying about opinions of them leaving a job or two

[coral vine]

this is what I wrote for the question

First, I take time to study the given task. Next, I prepare a list of clarifying questions in order to deduce the details of the work that will be required of me to perform. I think about many different aspects such as the edge cases, implementation, translation from abstract details to technical implementation, security issues, memory management, and the final product. I factor in all these variables. Over time, I regularly check in with my teammates to make sure we are on the same page and headed in the right direction.

I make sure to talk to all departments such as the client, product manager, and other developers to make sure we are on the same page. After collecting a breadth of information, I have a good big picture idea of what may be involved. I then proceed to working on understanding the depth of the project. I do breadth first so that I have a general idea of everything that will be involve and a rough estimate for how long it will take me to complete the work, as well as better understanding the level of difficulty i can expect. There is focused and diffused modes of thinking. I like to switch between the two often which helps me to solve problems quickly. I work best independently because I have the ability to think deeply and hyperfocus for long stretches of time which allow me to troubleshoot and complete very difficult or complex tasks.

I also like to utilize multiple different formats for understanding topics such as maps, diagrams, drawing, writing. These methods allow me to think creatively by seeing multiple perspectives on the same topic. As I slowly refactor my notes, I form a more concise understanding over time about what i am truly required to do and all that it entails.

but im worried i get too technical or talk too much and dont know when to stop talking

[sleek egret]

your worry is justified

[true harness]

aim to have like a 30s to 1m answer

[sleek egret]

I would write: "I ask questions until I believe I have a good idea what the objective is. Then I describe the objective in my own words and ask how correct it is. Assuming it doesn't match exactly, I ask more questions until we reach alignment. Then I implement a prototype and repeat. Once approved, I continue the cycle."

or something along those lines. protips: do not ever say "I work best alone" or even hint at it. never.

[dreamy shadow]

Doesn't that just make the question a dev cycle question?

[true harness]

generally summer internships are all finalized and offers are sent before summer. so the situation where i go to this job, then accept another offer is not very likely

[sleek egret]

yes, because that's what the question is.

[buoyant seal]

i expect no developers to know how to build CI pipeline on your own, even if they have 13 years of exp. especially if they have 13 years of exp. They can be too old to learn already new tricks
They can be even mamonts still using SVN
HIs all experience is in single company! that is very important red flag to potential present modern skills.

[zealous path]

I would

Repeat the task back to the manger with my interpretation/understanding of it to make sure I got it correct at the first point.

Then throughout the project as I’m doing it, if something comes up where I’m unsure about a detail, I’d make sure to clarify with my manager to keep them in the loop.

The above especially when I’m taking instructions/data from multiple points/sources to make sure everyone is on the same page.
Requirements can change with time and it’s important to be flexible

[coral vine]

im learning this new skill. never had to talk in a time limit Dx but from mock interviews, i notice my friend comes off better at communicating to non-technical stakeholders and thats what im trying to learn but it just doesnt come to me.

[sleek egret]

or be like I was at 25 and say "I know better than him so I ignore my idiot manager and do what I think is best."

[dreamy shadow]

Frankly, their entire resume reads like a junior resume.

[unborn bridge]

almost ten of those thirteen years were with SVN, but we did eventually switch to git

[buoyant seal]

🤣 what a precise hit i made

[unborn bridge]

Yeah, but Skyglow's hurt more haha

[sleek egret]

see, then what you want to do is highlight how you led the charge to transition the team from svn to git.

it's not the svn -> git that's important, it's how you managed to get everyone on board with the change and make the transition smoothly and rapidly

[unborn bridge]

so like, lie?

[sleek egret]

never lie

[unborn bridge]

I am averse to taking credit for things I didn't wholly own

[buoyant seal]

to be fair there is some red flags to me as well. Backend i see to be made only in python in detail, with mentioning only Flask. That is kind of quite... limited exp?
I would expect some more stuff tried at this point of time, Django, FastAPI
Working with message queues, event streaming, distributed databases

I see only very basic skills with auths and multithreaded and flask instead

[sleek egret]

were you involved at all in the planning or management of the migration? if so, you can say you "helped the CTO" to do it

either way, the key is to highlight accomplishments rather than individual technologies

[buoyant seal]

also, SQL only via SQLAlchemy? and not mentioned with which database engines u worked (Postgres/mysql? Will be nice to see which engines u know well)

lack of Raw SQL is a bit suspicious. Too much stress on only single python ORM in Technical and Backend sections

[unborn bridge]

All of the work I did at both jobs was C++ revolving around processing hydrographic and earth observation datasets. My 'full stack' frontend/backend experience is comprised of a few months of tutorials, personal projects, and some github repos I was working on that were meant to be templates for other larger projects. This web developer job was actually a bit of a stretch for me, as I had to learn a bunch of stuff just to modernize my understanding of how it all works.

[buoyant seal]

that makes sense. So majority of your exp is C++ development, desktop smth stuff?

[coral vine]

modifies several interview question responses xD

... I enjoy team-based projects 😄

[unborn bridge]

Yes, primarily C++ win32 desktop applications and libraries.

My interest in web development, devops, and project management all came in the past couple years of struggling to find familiar roles.

[buoyant seal]

ergh. that is kind of a part of a problem.
If u aimed for devops positions, then u would have been expected having way more backend/web dev/linux exp.
At this point your resume is looking like only beginner in domain of web development. would have been nice to see some increased backend experience first

[true harness]

why are you switching to web dev? it sounds like you'd have a way better time applying to roles in the area you have experience with

[buoyant seal]

you are kind of overqualified in your desktop exp... which makes hard you to take on web dev stuff, since it would be pretty much to very junior stuff
and impossible to take for devops from the side of Ops, your are too much overqualified desktop dev to take you onto this position. and not having any ops experience at all according to resume. So... only to go into backend direction then, but that we already mentioned of which state

[unborn bridge]

I've applied to earth observation teams, c++ game development, c/c++ firmware development, and other familiar things many times before I ever considered web development. A couple years ago I hated web development, but my understanding of it was quite outdated (html, php, icky blarg stuff). React and Flask are actually fun, so I'm branching out. Plus I'm super desperate and broke.

[buoyant seal]

i mean such C++ experience is amazing. You certainly learned a lot of stuff. But... ergh... too little web fluff is present in resume

we could probably expect you being awesome backend dev if only you have one year of backend exp under your belt

@unborn bridge how much of C# exp you have?

perhaps learning . Net stuff, this stuff is way closer to your experience... of static typed development. and more in domain of Windows Microsoft stuff (unless we use . Net Core in linux edition)
People could be pretty much willing to hire dev of this type i think, because your previous experience would be way more valued for this kind of position

[unborn bridge]

I've really only used it to create small utility applications, either console apps or single form graphical tools. In fact, I've written more C# as scripts for the game Space Engineers than I have used it in professional settings, but I can read it clear as C++ and the vast majority of my language skills transfer easily to it. I do admit to being far more familiar with C++ and Python though. I had a lot of fun extending and embedding Python with/in C++.

[buoyant seal]

that would have been nice to mention, because opposite should be true as well

your resume can be stressed to be good in optimizing Python crap for more performance with briding into C++ 😆

[unborn bridge]

I suspect that by the end of the day today I'll have a new resume that looks very different from my current one

feed back is really nice, I haven't gotten any at all up to this point. the silence feels like the hardest part

[coral vine]

Great responses, all! My response is way shorter now. I changed my essay to a few sentences 😄

How will you answer this question?

• Do you like working by yourself or with a team?

I wrote:
I enjoy working with others. However, I am fully capable of working independently. It's nice to be able to share ideas, learn, and help one another grow. With good collaboration, we are able to get work done faster by providing unique insights into a single matter.

I modified it to say I like working with others. But doesn't it make sense to say I prefer working independently if it's a remote role?

[true harness]

no. there's always room for collaboration, e.g. code review, pair programming, etc

[leaden jasper]

My remote job has required a lot more collaboration than my previous in-person one tbh

[true harness]

what do we think 😬

Hello Recruiter Name,

Thanks for reaching out! I am interested in the QA Analyst role, however I would prefer a more development focused role.

Sincerely,

[leaden jasper]

I might add on something like "and was wondering if there were any opportunities available in that type of role." It gives them something a bit more concrete to respond to where they can either say "yes we have those roles available" or "no, we don't"

[true harness]

oh. they do, i applied for them, and they sent this. i guess that means they didn't think i was qualified for them? 😔. the post did say must be junior or senior 😔

[coral vine]

Ah I see. Now that I think of it, the work actually was pretty collaborative, but I thought of it as pretty independent in my mind. o.o

[buoyant seal]

any dev job is collaborative one even if you are a single dev 🙂 (you are collaborating with your future self to maintain and extend your code)

[vital wyvern]

Is there any reason you can't talk to the recruiter about lateral movement within the org?

I know for the place I am interviewing with, one of the main selling points for me was the ability to move between departments periodically to keep the job fresh and continue learning.

[true harness]

it's just a 3 month internship. idk how much lateral movement is going to happen

[vital wyvern]

Ah, Yeah, that's fair. No chance of a job offer on the tail end?

[true harness]

i'm just a freshman, it'd be a long time for them to commit on a job offer

[vital wyvern]

Ahh, yeah alright. I'm shifting gears if I get this job to online schooling instead, since the benefits are pretty good and the pay is nice. 🤷‍♂️

[true harness]

@leaden jasper thoughts?

[leaden jasper]

hmmmm... is the QA position something you would still accept if they say they don't have a dev role available to you?

[coral vine]

My future self is beating up my past self for not documenting technical experiences properly. Therefore, future self/current self is now paying the price, trying to figure out organized responses to interview questions, which could have been avoided if past self did due diligence Dx

[true harness]

yeah. i'm just looking for anything tech related. my idea is that anything semi related to tech will be better than chipotle. both for resume and my sanity (and also pay, probably)

[leaden jasper]

Even though you do say you are explicitly interested in the QA role, the "however" still feels like you saying no.

Soooo try:

Hello dkfjads;fjsa,

Thanks for reaching out! I am interested in the QA Analyst role. I do have a preference for a more development focused role if that kind of position is available. Is there an opportunity to incorporate more of that type of work during the internship?

kthxbai

Make it super, duper clear that you are interested. Assume they'll skim and misread. But do let them know you are interested in dev stuff. Even if you do end up with primarily a QA role, it helps them know where you might be better aligned for the future. They also might hook you up with contacts during the internship for stuff you're more interested in. At least that's been my experience when I went with roles that were ... not 100% aligned with what I wanted.

Even for interns I had to adopt for a summer (because the team lead was too busy to do team lead stuff), if they let me know what they wanted to do, I would usually try to accommodate that as much as I could or put them in contact with people where that would be a good fit with for the future.

[true harness]

that's a good point 👀. 😔 your emails are always so ~eloquent~. i need to work on my email writing 😔

[vital wyvern]

It's a practiced skill. 😛

[leaden jasper]

haha, it's a learned skill. I still tend to be a bit too much on the verbose side, so it's something I'm perpetually working on

[vital wyvern]

I started tagging BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front) on the tops of my emails that were anything more than a paragraph to try to avoid miscommunications on situations that required that level of... verbosity.

[leaden jasper]

good I love a good TLDR on paragraph long emails. The paragraphs are usually necessary, but the TLDR keeps everyone focused on the important stuff (I work in a very, very technical role with a looot of discussion needed)

[true harness]

i try to be like...direct? but then i end up needing to add niceties like the "thank you for reaching out" 😔 😬

[leaden jasper]

I like to sandwich the niceties. Start friendly, do the direct stuff in the middle, end with a friendly statement. Maybe an exclamation point if I find it's a terse subject or if someone's doing me a favor

[true harness]

oh well. i'll just send it 😔

[leaden jasper]

From the hiring interns perspective, if you're responsive and your emails are clear and readable, you're a decent step ahead of some people

[pastel thunder]

chaotic username you got there

[true harness]

also, i was asked to send availability for an interview for this other company a few days ago, but they haven't responded 🤔. a good time to followup would be like, a week?

[leaden jasper]

Since we're in March, I think 3-5 business days is also fine to follow up

[vital wyvern]

Implication being... FY closeout and 4th quarter can be a little more rocky?

[leaden jasper]

It's likely they're just delayed internally with getting a bunch of people's schedules, but you also don't to slip between the cracks if they're close on sending out offers

[leaden jasper]

It's a bit later in the internship offer season at this point, not worryingly late but late enough that if you sit on something too long you might miss the offer window

[vital wyvern]

Ah tracking, that makes sense.

[leaden jasper]

I think the only place I've worked at that had an internship offer cycle go into late April was ... well the federal gov't. They're not exactly the poster child for being timely with things

My current company is sending out offers this week

[vital wyvern]

Assuming I snag this internship, I start in late April, which is a little inconvenient because my class registrations are due a week prior to that.

[true harness]

time to write another email i guess 😬

[vital wyvern]

Learn how to build a language model to write ~eloquent~ emails, use that project to respond to recruiters, use the response as evidence that your project is effective.

[delicate bane]

broooo i also feel that when someone is at a single company for forever...im worried about the relevancy of their skills

[buoyant seal]

#career-advice message i actually striked a score there 😁

[delicate bane]

you dont need to build one from scratch. you can just fine tune one from any of the foundational models out there.

[delicate bane]

ahhhh im dead 💀

[near ocean]

Whats there to worry about? Do you mean if all their exp is in a single company but theyre interviewing at yours?

[delicate bane]

like one of the dba's just laid off at my company, i dont think he kept his skills up to date/forgot all his dba skills bc he was one of those "been at the company forever" so idk what hes going to do

[delicate bane]

like, i would not want them as a coworker if you know what i mean

[spark cobalt]

Quality Assurance

Manual CI

[delicate bane]

that acronym may apply for the finance world but def not for software

[near ocean]

🤷 never really thought about it, i assume they'd be able to learn job relevant things

Recently got a new teammate thats been in the one company since their apprenticeship, like 7 years, will see how it goes

[spark cobalt]

I mean everyone used to have their entire career be one company

[near ocean]

Very boomer tier thinking, people nowadays know a company's loyalty isnt to its employees

[delicate bane]

you would think so. but that more applies to people who havent been in only 1 or 2 companies their whole career. but yeah it also depends on their personality but id be worried if they might be set in their ways.

[delicate bane]

yep yep yep. cant be married to a single company anymore. nor do you want to since you never know when layoffs might happen

[delicate bane]

7 years shouldnt be too bad. its when you get to 15+ years in a non-tech company that id be slightly worried.

understandable. i assumed so too.

[near ocean]

gf's dad worked at bell labs for 45 years 💀

Cant even fit it into my mind how thats possible

[buoyant seal]

haha. i had same dba as my first tech lead

[delicate bane]

some of those more R&D-type places.... i--

[delicate bane]

bro i cant imagine that. having a forever dba as a tech lead? no thanks.

[true harness]

doing what? for research it's kinda reasonable

[near ocean]

I have no idea 💀 i feel like if i start talking to him about work he'll dunk on my python/javascriptin ass

[urban carbon]

Quick question, how do you do python on mobile, currently don’t have access to a computer and got a lab due in a hour

If anyone can help I’ll appreciate it

[delicate bane]

"you dont know [insert some low level programming language]?"

[near ocean]

"i know how malloc works, i swear, leave me alone!"

[true harness]

until they ask you to implement it

[near ocean]

#include <stdlib.h>

[buoyant seal]

We used c and c++ in university for two years. I was left with impression I know less than 1% of them. Probably more than 0.1% 🙂

[vital wyvern]

Isn’t that the best? I took a semester of CS and walked away with nothing but an acute awareness that I know nothing.

That class was fun though, I credit the teacher heavily for effectively teaching concepts and not just spitting out code without really understanding it.

[true harness]

i mean all that time you spent, you hope you've learned something useful lol

[coral vine]

Very insightful answers to the previous interview question, all!

How would you answer this question?

• Tell me about a project that you were a part of that was mismanaged. What would you do differently?

Could I get help answering this please? I feel like this is a challenging question to answer because then it sounds like I am trash talking a teammate, but I simply want to describe the struggle I faced. :/ How can I improve my response? Here is what I wrote:

I was building a full stack web app and onboarded a junior dev to the project. I misjudged their skill level because I made the assumption that they built the projects on their portfolio. I didn't realize they were mainly tutorial-based. They mentioned struggling with ego issues, didn't feel comfortable asking for help, didn't honor deadlines, or communicate enough when things got hard. I think they just got intimidated by the project.

What I would do differently is I would have asked them technical/behavioral problems relating to the work they would be doing for the project in order to make sure they had the skills to do the job before onboarding. I would have also been more assertive about asking why a specific assigned task is not getting done by deadline, and let them know that they can no longer be on the project if they are unable to complete their end of the work. I would also be more mindful about interacting with a junior dev because most likely they struggle with confidence, being inexperienced.

[buoyant seal]

From third year I fell in love with C#. Visual studio was pretty much telling me its intuitively guessed syntax on a run. Very nice language

[vital wyvern]

I got asked this question in my interview yesterday, but I just crawled into bed. Remind me to respond to this with what I said and how the interviewers responded tomorrow if you see me lurking/still care.

[near ocean]

You can point to any university group project and argue that it was mismanaged, a bunch of 18-21 year olds don't know how to manage anything

[coral vine]

so curious now. at least you even said something.

I didn't respond at all when they asked me to talk about a specific project they saw on my resume. I was scared that I would blabber out an essay worth of rambles of insanity xD

edit: thought you meant figuratively crawled into bed. Like it was a difficult question xD

still want to know how to answer this

[true harness]

very true. i was a little stumped until i remembered school projects lol

[spark cobalt]

Your solution is to not deal with it basically?

You're not proposing a solution to the situation. You're just saying "I would make sure this issue doesn't happen to begin with" but candidates being assessed wrongly happens all the time as much as you work against it. How would you fix the problem besides firing them?

[coral vine]

I left out all the things I did to try to assist

[near ocean]

Why? They ask questions like these so you can explain how you dealt with a bad situation, not just describe rhe bad situation

[spark cobalt]

I was building a full stack web app and onboarded a junior dev to the project. I misjudged their skill level because I made the assumption that they built the projects on their portfolio. I didn't realize they were mainly tutorial-based. They mentioned struggling with ego issues, didn't feel comfortable asking for help, didn't honor deadlines, or communicate enough when things got hard. I think they just got intimidated by the project.

What I would do differently is I would have asked them technical/behavioral problems relating to the work they would be doing for the project in order to make sure they had the skills to do the job before onboarding. I would have also been more assertive about asking why a specific assigned task is not getting done by deadline, and let them know that they can no longer be on the project if they are unable to complete their end of the work. I would also be more mindful about interacting with a junior dev because most likely they struggle with confidence, being inexperienced.

Your "solution" is basically blaming it on him and saying you're gonna not deal with it.

Discuss what you did to try to fix the solution, maybe what could've helped, maybe there were some gaps you missed

[true harness]

They mentioned struggling with ego issues, didn't feel comfortable asking for help, didn't honor deadlines, or communicate enough when things got hard. I think they just got intimidated by the project.
you really want to avoid this. don't roast people. try to be constructive

[spark cobalt]

This is fine. It's the problem statement itself.

[delicate bane]

yeah if i saw this response to the question, id be like

[spark cobalt]

I would not hire, this is just blatant neglection.

[true harness]

yeah, but i still think it could be stated better

[spark cobalt]

Definitely

[coral vine]

some things I tried was

• created diagrams showing data flow
• we had a onenote with a bunch of tutorials i wrote
• every time we met up, i always encourage them to ask for help if they need it, encourage them that they could work on any part of the project
• suggestive queestions like: what do you feel you are learning from being on the project
• we had team building events every weekend like playing video games
• always said "let me know if you get blocked by something"

[true harness]

is there a happy ending to this story? what's the moral of the story, so to speak

[delicate bane]

maybe you should pick a different story lol

[spark cobalt]

This sounds like you completely ignored their ego problems lol

[coral vine]

we also talked about the ego problem, they brought it up to me and i just listened about it and said i understand because collaboration is a new thing for the both of us

[delicate bane]

see the issue is the question itself:

Tell me about a project that you were a part of that was mismanaged. What would you do differently?

this story makes you look slightly bad ngl. thats why i advocate for picking a different one.

[near ocean]

Maybe pick a project you weren't the manager of lol

[true harness]

yeah i think the purpose of the question is you dealing with a manager, not dealing with a subordinate

[coral vine]

dont really have any stories o.o
since im new

that was the only one Dx

unless i start talking about my mom xD

[spark cobalt]

This is the fucky corporate solution that never solves anything

'I empathize, now fuck off'

It can be a school project

[delicate bane]

lmao

[spark cobalt]

The issue is you said you understand but you didn't really do anything differently. Meaning you didn't understand

[near ocean]

School projects fit really well because its usually a prof managing the team (or a randomly picked peer) so you have two issues:

• inexperienced or uncaring manager
• obligatory teammate(s) that dont do shit

[coral vine]

I did do things differently. They wanted me to "not touch their end". So I agreed. But thing was they couldn't do their end Dx

[spark cobalt]

You knew they couldn't do their end though... Right?

[coral vine]

I had a bit of hope that they could learn quickly

[true harness]

honestly the school projects are gold. you can totally have a story where the team leader didn't do as much work so you stepped up and led the team. i'm pretty sure everyone can relate to that

[spark cobalt]

Idk the situation since I'm not you, but if he was really someone you couldn't "deal" with, I would just do a different story

If you're applying for a junior role, like others said this story probably isn't fitting for the intent of the question

[near ocean]

Based uncooperative teammates forcing character development upon us

[coral vine]

Not that I couldn't deal with. They just did a slow fade off ghosting thing o.o I would have still worked with them. There was plenty of things they could do with their skill that they did have. But they didnt feel comfortable to communicate enough

I'm not great with my social skills too. so maybe we weren't a good match. I was pretty passive.

[delicate bane]

this happens even in grad school but less likely if you choose the right teammates. i still had a class where i basically did everything. but for the good projects, i find that peeps who are already working professionals make some of the best teammates

void why are you always so pensive

[near ocean]

2023 mood

[summer roost]

that's a non sequitur. You're assuming that someone staying at a job implies that they don't realize that companies lack loyalty to employees. It doesn't. There's many reasons to stay at a job beyond a sense of loyalty.

[near ocean]

Its very characteristic of older folk to stay for longer than they arguably should at the same company/role

Theres no imaginable benefit to staying at the same company for 15 years or more (I would argue even less than that is still too much) unless its like your last position and you want to take it easy

[summer roost]

I suspect that's less out of a sense of duty to repay loyalty, and more out of a sense that there's much greater risk to changing jobs when you're older than when you're younger.

[delicate bane]

there is more of a risk yeah

[summer roost]

[citation needed]

I can imagine a great many benefits to staying at a company that you enjoy working for doing work that you enjoy doing (with people you enjoy working with)

[delicate bane]

theres also other factors such as you have more family commitments/financial obligations/etc.

[near ocean]

The first one you join cant possibly be the best fit for you, theres great people everywhere, is trading personal growth and networking really worth it? I doubt it

[spark cobalt]

Variety is the spice in life and routine is the meat and potatoes.

How they want it to taste is up to the individual

[summer roost]

who says a company needs to be "the best fit for you", instead of just a good fit? Why can't you grow at one company?

[near ocean]

That sounds like saying someone never leaving their home town is a good thing just cause they like it, what about exploring a bit, what about acquiring world experiences, meeting new people...

[spark cobalt]

Also "best fit for you" can change over time as you have differing needs over your career

[delicate bane]

haha i like that combo of expressions. and yeah it can be kinda person-dependent too

[summer roost]

sure, yes, but companies change over time too, and that doesn't really change much of the conversation.

[spark cobalt]

Yep

[near ocean]

Something something step outside your comfort zone

[delicate bane]

speaking of companies changing over time, i bet its different working at a company before and after a merger/acquisition

[graceful mason]

our project manager just announced he's moving to become an electrical engineer, some companies allow you to move around and do what you want 🤷

[delicate bane]

cant imagine what thats like

[summer roost]

quite a few people marry high school sweethearts. You don't need to min/max your career any more than you need to min/max your romantic life. If you find a company/person that you enjoy being with, you don't need to end it just because there might be something better out there. There probably is, and there's probably a lot worse out there as well, but "comfortable" isn't negative.

[sleek egret]

I like being comfy

[near ocean]

The first example was working with a person who has only done the one job for an incredibly long time
There are valid concerns

[sleek egret]

maybe he likes his job. is that so hard to believe?

[near ocean]

Not about moving companies, not even about moving internally in the same company

[near ocean]

He was sacked apparently 💀

[zenith sparrow]

This ties into why I think that impostor syndrome is so rampant in our space.

Collaboration nurtures the strongest ideas, isolation nurtures only familiar ones. When people feel the need to be less transparent about their thought process, everyone loses. More often than not, it's been my experience that a lack of transparency usually covers up for a fear of making mistakes/looking stupid.

As time moves on, one's label is artificially inflated, and it becomes increasingly harder to ask "novice questions". The irony is that "intelligence by obscurity" actually hinders progress, and eventually people catch on.

[delicate bane]

i think its fine for him to like his job. i also think the markets changed nowadays where you cant not keep some of your skills up to date

[sleek egret]

I've been at companies that got bought and had to wait for my options to vest... it was both weird and funny. like I trolled some "facilities manager" chick at HQ (far far away) and she got sooo pissed off at me. it was hillarious

[delicate bane]

no more resting on your laurels depending on your skill set.

[sleek egret]

she was anal about inventory mgmt so would packrat extra monitors and things... so I'd just grab equipment and set it up by my desk without asking her. which really pissed her off.

whenever she came to our office to visit, she'd see the equipment. tell me to remove it. I'd just say "no". which pissed her off even more.

[delicate bane]

people that have systems in place would def not enjoy that

[sleek egret]

the inventory room was literally 20 feet away. and the stuff was just sitting in there doing nothing, depreciating away.

I wanted to say "it's a build server" but I was afraid she'd know I was making it up.

[delicate bane]

and yeah it just seems weird when acquisitions happen.

[sleek egret]

yeah, right after we got bought, all the dev teams in nyc got called to a meeting where one of the execs from HQ asked us "why do you come to work?"

we went around the room, and people would spout the usual banal BS about "the challenge" or "the people".

[delicate bane]

uh oh...

[sleek egret]

the BS was annoying me so much... so I just said "for the money". no one said anything. it was hillarious.

[summer roost]

In any event, I certainly don't disagree that it's a good idea to pick up new skills so you don't find yourself painted into a corner a decade down the line, or that changing positions or jobs is a good way to do that, or that changing jobs is a good way to get a raise. That's all totally true. I guess I'm just questioning the assumption that, because companies don't have loyalty to employees, you must switch jobs in order to avoid being taken advantage of. There's valid reasons to switch jobs - but also plenty of valid reasons to not switch jobs, if you feel like you are learning and growing and being fairly compensated.

[delicate bane]

lmao dead 💀

speaking the truth that some would be too afraid to say out loud. what happened after that

[sleek egret]

oh, my best corporate bs story... so management hired this team-something consultant who was supposed to help us work better together.... one exercise we did was some sort of negotiation exercise.

[delicate bane]

most def. i agree with these points

[sleek egret]

for my group, I convinced everyone to lay their cards on the table so we could mathematically optimize the outcome. everyone agreed. so we did.

the consultant was amazed at our results. he asked how. so I told him. he accused me of "cheating" and banned me from further competition. lol.

[near ocean]

I maintain, nay assert, that its a red flag for someone to stay at a position/company for more than 7 years lets say if its not their "retirement target"
I would feel uneasy being managed by such person and it would probably be annoying to work alongside them

[delicate bane]

lmaooooo

[delicate bane]

its his fault he didnt set any ground rules

[sleek egret]

dude, IMO, "up or out" is bad. sometimes you find someone who's just perfect for the role.

[near ocean]

Just like people probably wouldnt hire me if i only worked with jquery for 15 years I dont want to work under someone who's only managed the same team for 15 years

[sleek egret]

not everyone wants to manage managers who manage managers. some people think of that as hell.

[leaden jasper]

Staying in the same company for 15 years does not mean doing the same thing and managing the same people for 15 years

[near ocean]

Theres so many roles out there lol, you dont have to move to management if you dont want to

[delicate bane]

jquery
im not a javascript dev and im like
jk. im sure some places are still using that in their stack.

[sleek egret]

what if it's the best team at the company, by far?

[near ocean]

That was the example given earlier, i think by Rex

[near ocean]

Theres no best team, only least bad 💀

[leaden jasper]

Like, I have coworkers who have worked at my current company for nearly 20 years. I can see why and it makes sense. They've done a lot of different work, worked with many other companies, and the flexibility and independence the company provides is hard to beat.

[sleek egret]

I recall on guy who managed the QA team. he was simply outstanding at that role. he was, by far the best QA team lead I've ever worked with over multiple decades.

[summer roost]

🤷‍♂️ I'm 8 years into my current tenure, and I absolutely learn new stuff every day, and I'm certain I'm competitively compensated.

[sleek egret]

when he left and a new QA lead took over, that team went to shit within a few months. it was sad.

if I was his boss, I'd have moved mountains to keep him there

[near ocean]

The average software guy doesnt work at bloomberg managing a team 💀 come on bro

[delicate bane]

thats good. sounds like great peeps. in my example, the guy that was laid off was there forever and didnt really do anything anymore. like hardly anything.

but you can bet he was paid twice or more than most peeps.

[sleek egret]

sure, there are people that stagnate and get lazy. no one is disputing that

[summer roost]

you didn't say "average software dev", you said "someone". I'm also not a manager, I'm an IC

[delicate bane]

right, i agree with everyones points so far.

about how there are ways you can stay at a company and still grow and contribute.

[sleek egret]

@summer roost are you at bloomberg? is that team lead who keeps talking about writing a book about C++ still there?

is that you, perchance? 🙂

[near ocean]

Im a random, i consider myself average, if you dont know me you should also just assume im an average joe, youre making me make myself sad now lmao /s

Anyway i didnt hold this position before this convo, i just assumed people would learn but i guess its cause all i do at work is learn

[zenith sparrow]

What are some bits of advice you'd tell your former self?

[delicate bane]

dont doxx godly

[coral vine]

Can you share how this would be articulated? I don't know how to say a school group project because it's like everyone is working by themself, and coming together at the end to put it together. o.o

[summer roost]

I don't think I'm gonna go into who does and doesn't work there - at least, not unless I know them personally and know they wouldn't mind me talking about them 🙂

[sleek egret]

ok, fair enough

[true harness]

then make up a story where something like that happened

[delicate bane]

i used to assume people would keep learning too before my current job lol. im sure its way different in more tech-forward companies.

[near ocean]

Splitting up the workload requires communication and flexibility, deciding who's team lead, who'll present, etc

[near ocean]

After giving it some thought i realised I have people like this in my team already
They've been doing the same thing for years now, they havent grown at all
The other day a coworker was shocked i did some basic javascripting in the chrome console, he'd never thought or been curious about it💀
Im not sure I would like to work with people like this, people grow complacent

[summer roost]

hm. Ton of vague ones: network. Talk to people. Look for opportunities to have impact beyond your immediate team - problems that others are having, or that your customers are having. Learn how to talk to people, because personal connections are incredibly important. Learn how to influence people. Surround yourself with people smarter than you.

[delicate bane]

bro if youre a senior frontend dev and dont know something about browsers...id be worried

sidenote: changelog's "JS Party" is a great podcast.

[delicate bane]

this is also a great resource if anyone is interested/needs it:

https://developer.chrome.com/blog/inside-browser-part1/

[summer roost]

lots of people, especially very junior engineers, want to be told exactly what to do, and then go off and do exactly that. That's a poor way to grow your skills, it's a poor way to get exposed to new opportunities, and it's a poor way to demonstrate value to the company and improve your compensation

[unborn bridge]

where would be an appropriate place to list references on this template? https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs

[near ocean]

No references on CV

If they want them they better have a contract ready lol

[unborn bridge]

really? am I stuck in the past? I thought references were super important and required

[near ocean]

Not at the sending CV around step

[unborn bridge]

okay, that's certainly fine by me

[near ocean]

I think current co asked for them about a week after I signed contract

[summer roost]

what country are you in?

[unborn bridge]

Canada, eh

[summer roost]

hm. I'm not super familiar with Canada, but I expect it's basically the same as the US and the UK: they'd only ask for references if they're planning to offer you the job. In the US, the form that comes in is usually a job offer that is contingent upon you providing them with references, possibly a drug test, possibly signing an NDA, etc

[near ocean]

You should also let your references know youre applying, i think its polite

(or maybe not if you still work there lol)

[summer roost]

oh yes, definitely - you definitely don't ever want to list anyone as a reference unless you know exactly what they're gonna say

[unborn bridge]

one reference is my closest friend, and the other is a former employer who didn't respond to a casual e-mail years ago and I've since lost touch. I was always sweating bullets about the latter, as the general rule that I was always told is two solid references, and those were the best I could muster

[true harness]

are references expected for more senior positions in the US?

[summer roost]

not generally. They're more common for junior positions.

[true harness]

huh. i thought it'd be the other way around. how do you get references without working? would they just be profs?

[near ocean]

Was in a similar position, after first job put down a coworker and my boss, but I didnt let my boss know about it
I kind of assumed he'd be ok with it
Thankfully HR fucked up and only ran my background check 2 months after my probation ended, cant get rid of me now haha

[summer roost]

personal attestations from random strangers about some candidate's employability don't hold much water. By the time you're at the more senior level, employers likely have much more data to draw conclusions based on. For someone's first job, they're much more likely to need to take someone's word that you'll actually come to work every day

[true harness]

🤔 that makes sense. i guess they're more "nice to have" compared to other stuff?

[near ocean]

In the UK you usually get assigned a tutor, you have regular meetings with them and they also supervise your capstone project
Theyre generally a good reference

[unborn bridge]

Another issue I'm not sure how to avoid is my work history gap. I haven't been employed as a software developer for three years. I'm kind of liking this Projects section in this template I'm using because it lets me fill the gaps with some relevant and interesting things, but when people were critiquing my resume earlier they seemed to suggest I avoid personal projects and focus on work history

[true harness]

hmm. i had semi regular "meetings" for my senior project in high school. maybe they'll agree to be a reference 🤔. though that'd probably be quite a while once i graduate 🤔

[delicate bane]

yeah heard about that in UK systems. those are like if TAs had a 2.0 version lol

[near ocean]

Time to suck up on a teacher then, dont forget the apple 🍏🍎🍏

[delicate bane]

yeah and some companies apparently arent equipped to take on juniors which i have mixed feelings about - especially if you think about the fact that everyone has to start somewhere but thats another separate convo

[near ocean]

By graduation time you should have done a couple internships, you'll be fine

[true harness]

actually in my interview earlier, they did go and look at my github. the guy noticed i hadn't updated my blog in a while 😬 😩 😭

[near ocean]

Write a blog post about how your recent interview experiences stressed you out

Hey, if interviewers dont wanna get namechecked they shouldnt go looking 💀

[delicate bane]

"yeah, ive just been busy with school lately. (this is when you pivot the convo)."

[true harness]

yeah lol. i said "it's currently down" and they said "yeah", 😭. then i said "i'm trying to work on it, but i've got a lot of work from school to juggle, and it needs to take priority" etc

[delicate bane]

hey there you go

you can avoid this situation in the future if you had maybe a short 30s clip/recording of your site/projects

[true harness]

that's a good idea tbh. i need to fill out my readmes more too 😬

[delicate bane]

but thats kinda a lot. i only have stuff like that saved in my folders bc i post to linkedin when i do any little project lol

[delicate bane]

you can always start with the basics and add in more over time.

just dont forget to lol.

[ivory sluice]

did you come up with this bc it is cracking me up

my anecdote is that while i'm on my 10th year at my current company (yikes) i've grown a lot and have had new experiences pretty much every year, but especially this past year after being acquired by private equity. i was/am really risk averse and know there was very likely a cost to my future total earnings by not moving around, but i made that choice and made what i could out of it. have built up a lot of mutual trust with leadership and so far we're all on the same page in terms of responsibilities as well as compensation (though there have been Big Talks every now and again where i tell them to catch up)

[delicate bane]

yeah youre also at a startup right? bet theres always lots to learn

[ivory sluice]

no not start up. though maybe i have the wrong definition of a start up. what if it started 30 years ago?

[delicate bane]

hmm why did i think you worked at a startup

[near ocean]

I think if its not traded its a startup

[coral vine]

Thanks all! Okay, I have revised it with the advice. How about this? Does this properly convey dealing with poor management?

• Tell me about a project that you were a part of that was mismanaged. What would you do differently?

I was working on a group project for school where we built an inventory management application. We assigned roles at the beginning for who does what. Blake was responsible for doing <backend job #1>. Devin handled <backend job #2>. Rob did <frontend job>. I was working with Devin for <backend job #2>. It was getting close to the deadline and Devin was waiting on Rob to finish the frontend. However, Rob stated that it was going to take much longer than anticipated. Devin started getting frustrated waiting for Rob to finish his frontend portion so I had a talk with Rob about his frontend portion.

Together, we discussed ways we could improvise the frontend in order to unblock Devin from his work on the backend. We figured out a temporary placeholder solution together. Then, I returned to Devin to deliver the new improvisation which unblocked him. Devin was able to continue his backend work. As a result, we were able to deliver the project before the deadline.

What I would do differently is change the way I prioritize what gets built first. So, if the backend has a vital frontend dependency... It's best to build that frontend dependency early on for the project, instead of saving it for last. I would also try to catch onto the issue sooner instead of letting frustrations grow. That can be done by scheduling team meetings more frequently by incorporating daily scrum where we discuss blocks, tasks done, tasks we are working on.

[true harness]

isn't that like, all private companies?

[dreamy shadow]

Yes

[delicate bane]

oh hey sky. so all private companies count as startups?

[near ocean]

"All" (gov owned arent) companies are private, but if theyre not listed then what else would you call them

[delicate bane]

hmm some peeps would differentiate startups vs. scaleups but what do i know

[dreamy shadow]

Public traded companies have to report certain things to both share holder and the SEC. Eg 10K

[true harness]

are you prepping this for an interview?

[near ocean]

I also thought mina was at a startup but i think its cause she mentioned excel a couple times

[ivory sluice]

not caught up on the earlier context but that sounds pretty good. is this a written interview? or you're practicing for verbal questions?

[dreamy shadow]

We use excel as a fortune 200 company.

[ivory sluice]

sadly, i am finding that BIG MONEY == all the excel

[delicate bane]

see? im not the only one. 💀 it just seems like they have you doing a lot.

[near ocean]

It do be like that with excel

[dreamy shadow]

10 years is a long pay cut.

[coral vine]

it is for a one-way video interview. I'm not sure what they will ask Dx okay great 😄 I want the job so bad!

haha it is way better than me roasting a teammate

[delicate bane]

as joe reis likes to say, "excel is the dark matter of the data universe"

[delicate bane]

one of the services at my company ETLs data from a huge excel file. eventually after XX amount of transformations and who knows how many pipelines, it ends up in some aws dynamodb tables.

its supposed to feed some API but ofc this API broke as well as the initial ETL from the excel file so theres that. and im sure one of the pipelines in the middle is broken too. yknow, the usual. 💀

is it sad that stuff like this doesnt phase me anymore

[ivory sluice]

i typically deal with excel after stuff has been exported. any editable excel feeding into other things sounds disastrous

[ivory sluice]

i think the part about you finding creative ways to unblock someone is a highlight

[near ocean]

Its a good character trait to have i think
Not jaded, but experienced

[delicate bane]

dont even start. someone yesterday talked about how "yeah we technically can extract this data from a flat file to be placed into a database table" and i was like "no thats our last resort. we are establishing a connection to the other database and running queries directly from source data."

like who knows what happens in between transit to that excel file from the 3rd party, through email, where in lands in some folder, etc.

[ivory sluice]

aaaaa

[delicate bane]

im gonna steal that.

[dreamy shadow]

Flat files 🚪

[near ocean]

Thankfully i didnt have to do much pipelining with excel, plenty of fancy charts and graphs and things that pop out at whichever board member youre showing it to

[delicate bane]

and ofc execs only care if the data backups up their argument. otherwise "the data is wrong". i mean, who said that. jk. unless?

[near ocean]

Oh yes they go wild for that kind of stuff, obviously gotta add lots of green to tables and charts

[vapid jay]

my company has this process where there's a environment where you develop, then multiple levels of closer to production servers where you fill out change forms whenever you want to change anything. the thing i find kinda crazy is there is zero automation of anything. as in if I want to make a folder, you have to have a zoom meeting with someone and explain to them you want a folder, and help them through it. is this normal at big companies with this kinda staging for everything to be manual? it feels extremely fragile and slow

[pine sleet]

Where automated CI/CD??

[summer roost]

change requests that someone needs to sign off on and approve sounds pretty normal to me - it's normal to have an audit trail of what has changed (and why) in order to understand what to roll back if something breaks (and what you lose by rolling back). A lack of automation sounds pretty not normal to me, though, as does having people in the position of signing off who aren't already intimately associated with the changes being made and who need to be convinced. And I'd expect the signoffs to generally be just a rubber stamp - usually when you're making a change, your boss knows why you're making that change, and when it comes time for someone to sign off on shipping your change to a prod environment, your boss can provide the sign off

[slender vale]

Programmer and gamer

[clear orchid]

Any CyberSecurity professionals? I'm trying to help a friend evaluate cybersecurity credentials/training programs and I'm much more on the SWE side.

[cedar chasm]

I am currently learning python and would like to know about the opportunities after I learn it

[burnt zephyr]

try to learn other as well, just python won't do...

[unborn bridge]

Python is used extensively in data sciences due to the relatively easy learning curve compared to other languages, as it allows researchers and scientists easy access to a huge number of useful libraries. It's also used a lot in automation, and it's a perfectly viable backend for websites and other online services. It's a great starting point for a new developer, and what much of what you learn in Python will transfer over to other languages. There's no reason not to spend time learning it, even if you ultimately find a career path that doesn't utilize it.

[clear orchid]

Agreed, Python is a great starting point for any developer. Depending on the job market you're interested in there are definitely companies that hire python-only developers if you're proficient. My entire team uses Python almost exclusively.

[buoyant seal]

Correction:
Great starting point if u aim for backend development, data science or machine learning or even DevOps engineering scripting glue
In other cases it is not

[clear orchid]

Can you provide an example? Frontend/Client developers could definitely benefit from understanding a language like Python. What types of developers would not benefit from understanding Python?

[buoyant seal]

Android and iOS devs, desktop development for Windows, Linux and MacOS, embedded development

[clear orchid]

Python is used for plenty of embedded devices. I work with large teams of client devs for Android/iOS and all of the lead developers are fluent in Python. It's a great foundational language. Any proficient software engineer is familiar with a few languages including ones outside their primary field of work and Python is great general purpose example of that.

[buoyant seal]

Really? I hear market of embedded is pretty much occupied by C/C++
As a big stretch people go to Rust, Golang sometimes.

Considering python heavy weight, and almost zero crossplatform compiling capabilities it straight sucks fit for embedded i presume (where u often needing arm64 CPU architecture stuff)

[unborn bridge]

The biggest issue I find with Python is the inability to obfuscate or hide your proprietary code, although with embedding/extending there are ways to do it, but it feels like it wasn't designed to be used to publish COTS software. It's just a scripting language at the end of the day, but still very useful. And it's available pretty much everywhere now.

[buoyant seal]

And Android development is occupied by Java, Kotlin. Or electron stuff with JavaScript
iOS with Swift.
Considering very limited user interfaces libs of Python to this stuff, I don't really see value of it for those systems

[clear orchid]

@buoyant seal I know Python is used extensively in the automotive world (especially now with autonomous vehicle delopment). There are certainly applications which are better suited to other languages. We have other API teams at my company that DONT use Python but IMO the point stands that learning Python is a great exercise and foundational building block.

Obviously Python is not used for client development but being multi-lingual is necessary for more senior-level developer positions.

[clear orchid]

It's not compiled if that's what you mean but if you're running backend services it's not really a concern.

[buoyant seal]

Anyway I make a point that:
Python is definitely great... But it is not great choice for all types of Devs. Certain types of Devs will benefit ways more to their career with learning better suiting language to their ecosystem of experience I think.
Each language has pros and cons... It is quite easy to reach python limitations you know.

There are way more universal languages as well, which have great ecosystem support for all around development

[unborn bridge]

Yeah, I'm talking about creating a piece of software, packaging it, and trying to sell it to people. Giving away your source is almost always not acceptable for a business. I'm just saying when Python was designed that didn't seem to be a goal of theirs, as it's not a very suitable goal for any scripting language.

[crude moon]

There are many python data engineers jobs as well, using spark, creating ETLs

[clear orchid]

Python is certainly not the best language for every application but as developers who should be aiming to learn 5 languages. It is basically a must in every developers top 5.

What are some "more universal" languages?

[crude moon]

It is not really known historically as a language someone would learn to get a job as an engineer, these days you can, but it wont be as high paying as some other languages unless you are doing data science. What language you should learn depends what you want to do.

[buoyant seal]

JavaScript/Typescript and Java. Both very universal languages to almost all kind of development.

[clear orchid]

I disagree that Python is a "scripting language". It depends on what you mean by "distributing your code". We use multiple vendors that utilize Python and deliver code and Docker containers to our servers. It's also illegal to steal code from a vendor that you've signed a contract with in most cases.

[crude moon]

It was made as a scripting language but definitely is not now.

[clear orchid]

I mean Javascript is relatively universal, it's more FE and not really useful for the BE outside of Node. Java is BE only and more difficult to learn than Python but again. If your goal is to learn 5 languages those 2 probably also make the top 5 for most developers.

[unborn bridge]

When it comes to protecting your valuable source code as a business, you're often trying to prevent it from being taken by people who are perfectly willing to do illegal things. Piracy and China come to mind...

[crude moon]

Just like javascript was made as a frontend language to manipulate the DOM but now it is used for so many different things

[buoyant seal]

Java is also data engineering language, cross platform desktop development for all OSes, and Android development. And BE yes too

[clear orchid]

TBH I've never run a startup but any obfuscation can be undone if actors are motivated enough. Maybe do business with reputable folks that you trust (or can enforce) contracts.

[crude moon]

Java is a pretty safe bet, as from there you can learn other JVM languages, work as a data engineer or ML engineer and those are high paying jobs with interesting roles

Or if you want an easy life learn C# :p

[clear orchid]

Java is flexible, especially with Apache Beam and Spark. It's also very dated and most data engineers would agree that they would give almost anything to be on a team moving away from it.

[delicate bane]

back in grad school, in both my cybersec and my swe class, they said almost always bad actors will want to steal your data >>> code

[buoyant seal]

It has its successors Kotlin and Skala for that

[delicate bane]

let my quote my adjunct prof who was tech lead in his day job, "they (bad actors) dont want your crappy code. they want your data."

[crude moon]

doing spark in Scala pretty much guarantees high paying role

[clear orchid]

Kotlin and Scala suffer from immaturity issues though. We're getting very specific into data engineering though. If every engineer should learn 5 languages, Python makes the top 5.

[clear orchid]

Ummm.. what? I don't hire SWE for "their data"

[delicate bane]

hes talking about bad actors

[crude moon]

Agree, as a data engineer you would learn Python no matter what as you will use it to do things like airflow etc..

[clear orchid]

Nothing guarantees a high paying role unless you have skill and experience.

[crude moon]

well yes if you cant actually do it..

[delicate bane]

hackers, attackers, etc.

[unborn bridge]

Luck > Nepotism > Skill :/ but skill is still cool!

[crude moon]

I think the fastest way to earn money these days is react, but it has a salary ceiling lower than other roles

[delicate bane]

it was a lecture about securing your code, system, etc.

[buoyant seal]

5 languages to upkeep knowledge about is too much of a stretch kind of. Person has limits it can acquire experience, using in pet projects and continuously learning for all updates and following communities.

I would certainly not recommend learning python to Devs aiming for Desktop development of all OSes, and mobile Devs of all OSes.
And its embedded usage is also potentially quite arguable.

[clear orchid]

Not sure about the fastest way to earn money. But the best way to a long and fruitful career is to find what you're good at and what you enjoy and deliver value.

[delicate bane]

this statement should be accompanied by one of those headlines that say "how to break into tech as a frontend developer in less than 90 days"

[crude moon]

haha yep

[clear orchid]

The 5 languages comes from a grad school professor. I forget the source but that any SWE that has learned 5 languages can learn any other language and be productive in a few months. It's the point where you are language agnostic. You are a SWE not a coder.

[crude moon]

Definitely not a recommendation, I am saying it more from the shock of seeing how much people are asking for after doing a few months course as I hire them

[buoyant seal]

Not sounding like a good advice to me at all. For being universal, u need carefully choosing languages with ecosystem and community supports for different kinds of development.
Plus there are many languages, very immature and entirely useless for jobs.
Each language I choose, benefits my chosen specializations, yet increases my scope of things I can do and gives me different perspective.

I personally chose to try stopping on 3 languages due to evaluating potentially my memory limit
I need to upkeep knowledge about many infra languages in addition already

[delicate bane]

thats wild. but also not surprising. i heard from a podcast that there is a lot of demand for those that know react atm.

take that with a grain of salt. yknow how podcasts can be.

[clear orchid]

To each their own. Devs on my team learn languages for the advancement of their trade. The best developers use the best language for the job. For a BE team like mine that could be Java/GoLang/Python/Node but you have to have some experience with them to evaluate the tradeoffs.

I'm sure there's client devs who make a fine living never learning beyond their one language (and never getting promoted).

[buoyant seal]

3 languages is definitely a stretch to me, because I need also upkeeping with 3+ and more of cloud infrastructure languages in addition :/
One person has limits it can upkeep learning :b

[unborn bridge]

Gotta remember that the goal is a long term career, and in that context 3 to 5 languages isn't a lot at all

[clear orchid]

IMO the 5 is not 5 languages that you can actively develop on. It's languages that you've learned ever in your career. Bash/Terraform/etc can count depending on how far in you've gotten. Given that loose definition I'm probably on 7+ at least in the last 10 years.

[delicate bane]

yaml developer status when

[clear orchid]

LOL sadly I don't count YAML although maybe I should

[buoyant seal]

Ansible, docker compose, Kubernetes... All entirely their own yaml based languages 😄
From yaml they share only general look

[delicate bane]

makes sense. especially once you start getting further into your career

[crude moon]

It is a bit of a sweeping statement the five languages. I think I would rather a developer that knows two languages, but understands data structures, frameworks, architecture, networking, tooling, deployment, etc.. than one that knows five and doesn't know those things.

[clear orchid]

Oh geez yeah I forgot Helm and "Kuberenetes" is it's own YAML language

[clear orchid]

The statement is really around flexibility. If I want an architecture-level engineer. They should know a lot of languages. Or if I'm hiring them for a language they've never used or worked with before.

If we're talking where the money is, I'm talking about getting promoted

[buoyant seal]

I prefer to learn and upkeep languages to very deep level of being able to actively develop in them.

Languages which I know briefly... And can even use for small development, I don't count as learned ones.

There is quite deep gap between able to use language briefly and being fluent in it to apply in the most clean and good ways

[unborn bridge]

They mentioned that the concept behind the 5 languages is that you learn different things as you go along. Think of going from dynamically typed to statically typed, and other significant learning curves.

[clear orchid]

Everyone has their own career path, just sharing my experience (and what I use when hiring)

[buoyant seal]

Helm kind of intersects with html/template of Golang though

[delicate bane]

yeah i was under the assumption that those other concepts would also be included along the way to 5 languages

[buoyant seal]

I am talking about being promoted as well... For heavily increasing my promoting value, it would benefit me the most learning deeper AWS for example :/
And even if I know Terraform... AWS Terraform is its own deep enough topic to explore for considerable time

Plus there are many other scaling tech i could learn to increase my value, like Elastic Search, monitoring and logging solutions and etc

[delicate bane]

for example, i feel like you can never learn enough networking as a developer but maybe thats just me

[clear orchid]

There are too many variables here to get specific. For example, some departments might be across clouds (and they will be across languages). The way to get influence over multiple groups has little to do with "deep expertise" and more to do with general knowledge (and soft skills), but trying not to get too far off track from Python.

[unborn bridge]

One of the very first things I learned as a young teenager was sockets in C. I was writing my own XDCC bots for my "file distribution" IRC channels =X

[clear orchid]

Don't take that approach in K8s. Istio is 🤮

[clear orchid]

Great point, a huge underlying point of the "5 languages" is really personality traits of folks who are continuous learners

[unborn bridge]

I don't generally mention it for fear of sounding impolite, but there's a difference between someone who is genuinely interested in software development, and someone who simply does software development.

[buoyant seal]

Sure, i aim for architecture engineer as well. But mind u again, not all languages are useful to learn and to know...
U benefit pretty much nothing from knowing dead languages like Fortran, or languages that were never alive in the first place like Clojure

Plus languages like Ruby/PHP give almost nothing to person already knowing python

Best to learn static type language if u know only interpreting languages.
JavaScript is exception to learn good always for web dev related guys ;/
New language should be broading your capabilities at the scale of... How High level language is or giving access to smth else your previous langs could not do

[delicate bane]

if i had my way, i would only ever work with managed k8s. i heard trying to debug pods is an absolute nightmare

[clear orchid]

IMO debugging is not the worst. Istio just introduces a level of uncertainty. Every developer is unsure what is going on. It just blocks network requests (by default)

[delicate bane]

yeah you really need that learner/growth mindset

[unborn bridge]

I'd go so far as to say that it has to feel fun to do.

[delicate bane]

right right.

[unborn bridge]

Does the verbage in Lead planning meetings where our team discussed task breakdown, complexity, and time estimates work? That initial Lead needing to be read as past-tense is bothering my brain.

[buoyant seal]

It is not that bad, u a getting used to it quickly 😂
https://twitter.com/timClicks/status/1527903611984158720

Tim McNamara (@timClicks)

Debugging Kubernetes is this simple 🫠

Likes

295

Twitter · May 21, 2022, 6:46 AM

[unborn bridge]

oh awesome, I'm simply spelling the word wrong! Led it is!

[delicate bane]

"unknown state" you love to see it 👏

[buoyant seal]

https://www.reddit.com/r/kubernetes/comments/u9b95u/kubernetes_iceberg_the_bigger_picture_of_what_you/
https://i.redd.it/95chfua7i0v81.png
I am kind of more anticipating how much more kubernetes depth if am supposedly needing to learn... eventually :/

[delicate bane]

you really going to move in this direction for your career?

[silent plinth]

Hi everyone, is there any remote python work opportunities avaiable? I'd really like to transfer to a remote worker. I code in python, I use Django and Flask. Thanks very much! I

[buoyant seal]

kube is awesome. Cloud agnostic, certainly better than dealing with raw Linux machines in all cases (except not always database/stateful friendly)
So, yeah 😁 I will learn it to the depth, eventually. Having many pet projects running in it already, and even dockerized minecraft modded server i put into it 🤣

[delicate bane]

oh man next thing you know you will have a cluster at home running some devices

anyway i dont actually hate k8s. im all for cloud native actually

[buoyant seal]

for now all my cases are solved by cheapest servers at Hetzner for pet projects/home stuff 🙂 To hell with keeping its own hardware 😛 Hetzner is cheap at it is already for pet projects

[delicate bane]

for now

[silent plinth]

Hi Shah, just wondering if your company needs another remote worker like me? Hope I am not being rude by asking you directly. Thank you!

[buoyant seal]

for later will be more serverless stuff with minimal time to run for its money waste to pet projects :)... hehe, i should certainly set limits in order to be not receiving one day 5000$+ bill though, when i will start using them at my account

[unborn bridge]

@buoyant seal you were one of the people who gave me a bunch of comments earlier on my bland resume, eh?

[buoyant seal]

yup

[delicate bane]

its okay maybe this will allow you to move into the finops part of your career

[delicate bane]

btw "screaming in the cloud" is a great finops podcast for those interested

[unborn bridge]

This is what I managed to produce this evening. I think I managed to account for most of the suggestions, but I don't know about the Projects section. It fills the page, and it fills in some of the time gap since I stopped working, and it conveys new technologies I've learned recently, but I feel insecure about the whole thing heh https://github.com/pcsagan/resume/blob/main/New Resume Redacted.pdf

After I sleep on it I'll revisit it, and see if anything sticks out or feels missing. I'm pretty happy with the changes though, it feels a lot cleaner at the very least

❤️ from random Canadian guy for all the input

[buoyant seal]

if you put SQL(Postgres) to languages, probably MongoDB can be there as well perhaps. They are both databases

[delicate bane]

dont know how it was before but thats good!

one thing, i think you should move education to the bottom. an education section at the top is more for new grads, etc. (at least in the states)

[unborn bridge]

You can find the ol' junker in the same repo https://github.com/pcsagan/resume and thanks for the tips, I appreciate them all! I might pass out in a minute or two though, so if I don't respond that's why

[delicate bane]

no worries. same here lol. i have work tomorrow too. ugh why do i do this to myself

[buoyant seal]

Implemeneted unit tests with CppUnit and automated functional tests with Python kind of stands out there. It is a regular development quality which is presumed to be present all the time for middle beginner rank dev and higher, in all projects.
it deserves only place in some kind of Technical Skills, Core Software engineering.
I would be more interested with your 13 Years of experience, how you are versed in Code Architecture / Architecture Patterns / Clean Architecture stuff, as a more interesting next learned stuff after Unit testing

[unborn bridge]

I think tomorrow I'm calling Social Assistance to try to get help with rent, so enjoy your tired day at work 😛

[buoyant seal]

Utilized pre-commit hooks for local linting... is very basic stuff as well :/ in Tethys project.
I would prefer to see you have written on your own CI pipeline in Github Actions for automated unit testing and linting instead. as minimal alternative, which can be merged with automated publishing line

Same problem to DS CNC project, present continuous delivery, and not present continuous integration (CI testing)

[sacred timber]

Hi guys I'm planning to take AI as one of my course and how should I start myself for this course?

[smoky quest]

Picking up a book and starting learning about it would be a great start.
#data-science-and-ml has some resources

[austere python]

hey guys, can you tell me how to create 3D chart like this pic ?

[buoyant seal]

googling python 3D plots
receiving: https://jakevdp.github.io/PythonDataScienceHandbook/04.12-three-dimensional-plotting.html
https://matplotlib.org/stable/gallery/mplot3d/index.html

[austere python]

thankssssssss

[sacred timber]

thanks what would you suggest for me as im a beginner

I have only learned like super basic of HTML and a very bit of css cuz i had like a tuition but only few classes

So its still a very new thing to me and I'm quite nervous. I was torn either taking AI or Aerospace Engineering but lately I tried to do some research and watch youtube videos about AI and its interesting to see how computers are that powerful and is able to compete with human

[vital wyvern]

No, I meant literally crawling into bed. 😛

Background: Our org used Excel for the longest time to track historical data on virtually everything. This is obviously not... a viable solution. I used this as the scenario for the 'mismanagement', citing reasons such as redundancy and data integrity as strong motivational factors to switch, as well as the ease for individuals to view, query, add to, and manipulate our database if we transitioned.

They wanted to hear specific challenges, so I used examples such as communicating with stakeholders to overcome a knowledge gap, getting everyone on board with deadlines and plans of action, and technical issues such as infrastructure age making actual data migration very prone to significant error.

I used recursive_error's reading that he sent me about completed Staff Works (because that's a very core foundation at my previous organization) to summarize a strategy for anticipating and addressing potential questions to stakeholders before they arose, while additionally citing specific solutions I created to automate the backup and migration of the database.

Lastly, I cited the outcome of the project; that we were able to migrate several TB of data with zero interruptions to stakeholder meetings, during one of our most production heavy quarters in the last decade.

Overall, they seemed satisfied with how I laid out my response. They had some specific questions about the challenges themselves, but I think I structured the answer fairly well.

[vapid jay]

you should not blame others

[stuck turret]

Guys are there any Back-End developers here? i have one general question 🙂

[buoyant seal]

🙂 don't ask to ask, just ask.
dontasktoask.com nohello.net

[true harness]

this is not how git is meant to be used, for what it's worth

I'd probably get rid of your high school. it's not necessarily since you have your associates

also, don't date your projects

looks much better than before, though 👍

[pastel thunder]

got some more rejects, but i trying to hold strong

[hearty quail]

i just found this https://www.microverse.org/

[true harness]

how many now?

[pastel thunder]

1/36 3-4 more rejects

[true harness]

just apply to more

[pastel thunder]

[digital osprey]

hello greetings, i am just starting my journey in Project Management and i am looking for a collaboration/team to join, in order to increase my experience, kindly send a dm if you have any opportunities for me,

[true harness]

pre-commit is automated though? 🤔

[buoyant seal]

too primitive stuff. it is like being able to write git commit to me.
it is pretty much personal experience to developer, it does not contribute to quality assurance of project in general and in collaboration. Github Actions CI pipeline running automatically tests and lints makes sure they are always run, regardless if developer turned on or not his pre-commit hooks. Github Actions CI Pipeline integrates work of devs across branches always

[stuck turret]

What is a good Backend stack that goes well with Python? 🙂

[buoyant seal]

Django, Django-Rest-Framework, Django Ninja (personally eyeing a bit), Django ORM
FastAPI, SQLAlchemy
Celery (Redis / RabbitMQ / AWS SQS editions). Celery Flowey if you can for monitoring
Docker / Docker-compose 🙂
Poetry for package management
Database engines from sqlite3 to Postgresql for fully fledged one
Sphinx / MkDocs for documentation of code (with autodoc features gathering code from docstrings both)
Sentry logging eventually
https://taskfile.dev/ for repository scripts
Pytest for tests
Github Actions, Gitlab CI for CI pipeline of tests, lints, builds, publishing
Mypy / Pyright for gradual typing
Black on save for automated formatting
Requests lib if you need human requests 🙂

[vital wyvern]

I know what you meant by this statement, but 'Just apply more' made me laugh at how simplified that solution is.
No job? Just apply

[stuck turret]

not all heroes wear capes ;p

[true harness]

no capes!

[stuck turret]

will Django, Django-rest-framework, PostgreSQL and AWS + Docker will be a good start you think? ( as for data structures and algorithms i am super comfortable)

[vital wyvern]

Don't wanna' be that guy, but that's kinda' off topic for #career-advice.

[buoyant seal]

Actually i do have a cape 🙂

[buoyant seal]

AWS oh yes, definitely awesome thing to learn as early as possible. But ergh, AWS is kind of overcomplicated and without learned infrastructure as a code (Terraform), it is kind of terrible experience, unless you use AWS Lightsail or AWS Elastic Beanstalk which give least amount of trouble
It would be smoother experience of just using Hetzner or DigitalOcean, but AWS is more precious of course

[stuck turret]

1 out of 3-4 job posts they require AWS or its a plus

[buoyant seal]

Sure. you can start with just Sqlite3 though. No need to jump straight to Postgresql from the start

[stuck turret]

so if i start AWS i should also look into Terraform?

[buoyant seal]

book Terraform up and running to get started. Ergh, AWS is very very big topic to learn, i warn you here
AWS has very overbloated interface and a lot of configurations (a lot!), which makes usage in GUI only as most terrible experience which people preferably never do (except for monitoring / logging / small adjustments purposes)

[true harness]

yeah it's really short for "just apply, with so few apps it's not enough to draw conclusions about your resume, could just be unlucky"

[buoyant seal]

AWS is more of a DevOps engineer topic to be honest. U can probably learn how to wield it at the level of GUI though at some acceptable level to see logging or other simple info, or making super simple deployments... for what people ask from backend people, but don't expect to scratch a lot without terraform. Also Docker is another pre requirement that should be handled first before diving into it 🙂

[stuck turret]

what do you mean by handled first? use?

[buoyant seal]

i mean, i recommend learning Docker first, book Docker Deep Dive, to get real hang of AWS after that, in order to use its container deployment systems
Without Docker your options to deployment are very limited. Only EC2/ Lightsail and very awkward version of Elastic Beanstalk is available
Without docker your deploymens aren't immutable, which is kind of very bad practice

i mean, u can start learning AWS regardless, but without Docker u will not go far away (as well as without Terraform)

Honestly, i recommend just using DigitalOcean (or even Hetzner) for now, until u learned Docker and Terraform, then diving into AWS. Or you can jump straight to using AWS in lts the most easiest simple solutions of AWS Lightsail first, and when learned Docker and Terrraform then learning deeper depths at a more serious levels

Hetzner and DigitalOcean give baby steps / easy to dive into Terraform as well. Way simpler to get started. DigitalOcean will be more worthwhile experience over Hetzner due to more available features, but Hetzner is cheaper for pet projects to run all the time 🙂

[stuck turret]

i see what you mean: Docker > Terraform > AWS

nobody looks for Hetzner and DigitalOcean in the job market though, thats why i am skeptical about them

[buoyant seal]

Sure, no one. But they are easier to learn and to enter. Than diving straight into AWS depth from the start. U can of course as i mentioned diving straight into AWS. Just u can be a bit overwhelmed. AWS is like 50-200 times larger than DigitalOcean

[stuck turret]

i see.. tough road ahead ;p

how much time would you say that a person need to reach a mid range developer AWS knowledge?

[buoyant seal]

assuming person already learned Docker, Terraform and just works on a job, while bit by bit learning AWS? year-two years
if concentrated on learning AWS throughly in all his weekends at least? Within some months, while exposed to practice at job for 4 months+ as well.
if learning just on your own, when already learned Docker/Terraform, and having undying enthusiasm to work its quircks? Ergh... Still months at the bare minimum.
AWS is large, and problem of it, that you can't learn it reliably without practice on some pet projects which expose it to you in its different common ways

AWS is also quite poorly documented in its over standard Json way, assuming generic documentation for all tools to communicate with it. Takes time to translate how to work with it into Terraform

The only really a way to learn it, probably applying it on your own is applying to all your side pet projects :/

books aren't event giving good yield in terms of AWS learning. They give result, but they still need to be translated again from generic/Cloudformation/JSON documentation to Terraform code

may be even makes sense to apply to courses for AWS may be (i never took courses, but for AWS i think to make an exception may be)

Anyway, AWS is not an easy thing to learn :/ totally not easy thing to learn even if u have all advantages

[stuck turret]

I dont mind that really, whatever it is eventually with time i will figure it out.. hard work > AWS ;p

[buoyant seal]

good idea to receive AWS certifications to prove you learned it 🙂 People like to see them in resume (official AWS certs) (That is exceptional case when certs have some meaning)

[stuck turret]

from our discussion i am planning to get certificates for AWS, Docker, PostgreSQL and MongoDB (this one i added for NoSQL) will that be good enough you think?

[buoyant seal]

i never heard about Docker / PostgreSQL and MongoDB certifications being received by anyone and having value.

I would have liked Postgresql cert to see probably, but certainly would not have applied for MongoDB cert even if had oportunity. Pet projects of using it is enough to me. MongoDB has too much specific usage cases

as well as Docker depth is not that deep for needing certificate
you will practice Docker throughly with applying in CI tools like Github Actions/ Gitlab CI, and also Terraform and kubernetes anyway
Docker is just a foundational small brick to ecosystem of infrastructure as a code tools

[stuck turret]

trying to get an interview without Certifications or Degree is hard though.. thats why i try for certificates right now.. is my thought process correct or?

[sleek egret]

certs don't matter much

[buoyant seal]

well, best would be getting degree, at least Bachelor's one. Without it, it will be very tough.
Certificatations have very limited value, very limited. Pretty much they are usually aren't acknowledged at all, unless received from official places like AWS to give AWS certification, Kubernetes to give kube certifications.
They have some worthiness to pretty much only infrastructure tools, but for backend/software engineering? never heard of having any value at all.
All companies saying they give certs of having values (and they aren't from AWS/kubernetes foundation), usually just lie in 99.9% cases

[stuck turret]

dont have the time or money to get a bachelors degree ;p

[buoyant seal]

loan 🙂

[sleek egret]

Ino: I'm afraid employers don't care about your constraints

Ino: if you don't have a degree, you have to impress them with experience

[stuck turret]

i really feel i can impress them with coding skills if i get an interview.. the problem is getting inside the door.. so i am trying to find a way to do so (loan so far is not an option)

[sleek egret]

few employers will take the time to thoroughly evaluate your skills. if you have a personal referral, they might.

[stuck turret]

so what advice would you guys give me? (i cant go for a bachelors degree)

[wide drum]

general question ,how young were you guys when you started programming ?

[sleek egret]

gain experience by working on relevant projects. learn how to sell that experience on your resume/cv. try your hardest to get referrals.

[true harness]

4

[sleek egret]

I was 54

[buoyant seal]

#web-development message
#web-development message
Besides learning practical technologies, u need also learning for backend core software engineering skills, it takes time to break your mind into understanding them and incorporating into your code.
Takes time to getting used reading even code and writing your own of big size, take stime getting hand of cleaning it up
University students have 4 years at least to break their mind into understanding something, and learning to learn
U will need very intensive and big amount of practice to get it. Big enough many projects are necessary with reading theory in order to fuck up previous projects and understanding how to do them in the right way in another project

Btw, forgottten to mention Git CLI as one of stack tools
resource to learn: Head First Git, https://learngitbranching.js.org/ git interactive tutorial, git pro book https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2

[wide drum]

@true harness , @sleek egret cool, pretty impressive for your age

[sleek egret]

it would be if it wasn't a lie

[wide drum]

I am new , any advice ?

[sleek egret]

learning to program is like learning to play a musical instrument. to get good, you need to both learn the theory AND you have to practice. a lot. then repeat.

[wide drum]

@sleek egret thank you sir , any website where i can get some excercises (not related to data structure and algorithms )

[sleek egret]

huh? nearly everything in programming is related to data structures and algorithms

that's like asking "are there exercises for playing piano not related to notes and tempo?

[buoyant seal]

https://learngitbranching.js.org/ exercises to learn Git CLI 🙂

[sleek egret]

heh, I went through that git tutorial

[wide drum]

@sleek egret like simple excercises because previously i looked on leetcode and there were many confusing terms. i am not familiar with algorithms

[stuck turret]

so if someone is really advanced in data structures and algorithms how is he perceived?

[sleek egret]

that thing has been around a long time

[stuck turret]

seriously man, not all heroes wear capes!!

[sleek egret]

as knowing what he's doing

[buoyant seal]

as beginner which finally learned beginner DSA necessary subject. DSA is only one of first topics of stage intro/ of university level stuff beginning (1 year of university)
#web-development message
Before you need to learn next topics

[sleek egret]

like I said earlier, that's why you need both the theory and the practice

the theory takes decades. no matter how much you learn, there will always be more.

[wide drum]

@sleek egret ok! nowIi understood why blindly practicing is not going to help.

[sleek egret]

generally speaking, I suggest the following: 1) read about some technique, 2) practice that technique, 3) realize by trying it out that you didn't really understand it after reading in step #1, so re-read. 4) practice again. 5) repeat

[wide drum]

@sleek egret any books for begineers to learn and practice theory ?

[sleek egret]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[buoyant seal]

book Grokking Algorithms 🙂 if you ask about DSA

[stuck turret]

my stack now is [python, javascript, html, css, react] and i can solve 2 medium questions in under 35min on average.. (best time complexity 90% of the times) now i go to step 4,5 and 6 in your list? and focus on the AWS certificate and if there is a docker approved certificate as well?
also very familiar with OOP as for tree structures and linklists

[sleek egret]

IMO, leetcode questions are not a good way to learn theory. there is no explanation of why there. it also doesn't teach you squat about managing complexity or systems architecture.

[buoyant seal]

4,5,6,7 better then. TDD kent beck book is very important one to understand testing at a practical level
it teaches you a feeling, what size of programming step, can be done in working code before you need to write another test.
it guides you through very simple practical example how the process of development with testing is done, in order to be writing tests along side of your code, which improves code architecture by magnitude (because you think in advance in mind, how to write testable code architecture)

[wide drum]

thank you very much for your advices .It means a lot to have a friendly and supportive community

[stuck turret]

what do you mean by testable code architecture?

[sleek egret]

the TDD book will explain that and why it's helpful

[buoyant seal]

book number 5 will teach you that. It gives foundation to read TDD kent beck at a better quality
Testable code architecture = Code which can be isolated into small units, which you can cover with automated tests for checks everything works correctly
Makes very easy development due to easy having ability to clean up, extend, debug code due to tests localizing all your errors

[stuck turret]

i have a date with AWS videos and TDD Book this weekend then 😄 ❤️

[sleek egret]

I would also suggest learning about the SOLID principles

[buoyant seal]

that will be teached in book 4 or 9 🙂 (i think it is in book 9)
#web-development message

[buoyant seal]

mind you, i wrote books in order. 4-5-6-7, i wrote with assuming you will read first 4, then 5, then 6, then 7.
I tried to arrange them in the way, that u will accumulate knowledge that helps you to understand content of next book at higher capacity
Like TDD Kent Beck book at second its part requires knowledge of Design Patterns
And Unit testing by Khorkiov teaches why unit testing is needed and what goals we pursue, why and for what. Understanding goals, u understand where u go. Makes easier to concentrate on TDD kent beck book
And Code Complete by McConnel just gives boost to you in understanding everything in software development

[stuck turret]

is the order of the list you provided recommended or should i rearange it ?

[stuck turret]

answering my questions before i even ask them ;p

[true harness]

they're good practice, though

[sleek egret]

indeed, I would agree. I just wanted to mention that leetcode style tests only test one rather narrow aspect of software development

[stuck turret]

fun too!!

[stuck turret]

The lists Darkwind provided i would title them as: How to be valuable as a Software Developer in the long run. and i am ON it.. now how do i become marketable other than the 2-3 (certified) Certificates we mentioned? anything comes in mind?

[buoyant seal]

nothing comes to mind, except finishing the list i wrote with stage 3 included. As it teaches also how to plan development projects, and making beautiful candies in terms of code architecture
then with following https://www.conventionalcommits.org/en/v1.0.0/ and https://semver.org/
You can make user oriented products, documented and present in a nice way?
Like i did here
https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_autogit
https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_darkbot
https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_freelancer_darktool
Documenting with pictures of their architecture / documentation of features / pictures
and may be even creating portfolio that shows them, graphically when possible

My tool https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_darkbot btw, automatically helps to enforce git conventional commits, following semantic versioning and generating changelogs for releases based on scrapping git history 😉 makes easy to present it in a good way. Wow i finally received first stars to project
Example of release with automatically generated changelog by tool
https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_autogit/releases/tag/v0.3.0-rc.2

Example of me releasing discord bot for game object tracking with, anouncing new features, and handling bug reports, communicating with users
https://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=188040&pid=2282025#pid2282025

Arranged to some nice portfolio simple site, it would be quite nice. With writing achivements in projects.
I am quite prod of achieving very clean architecture, i documented for each project with mermaid.js or draw.io

like here is example of code architecture of autogit

Nothing is better than having projects orineted for users and having at least some small user amount using your product. Participating in open source projects or making your own open source products is a win, and then being able to present it in a good way, with pictures, why it is cool, well documented

even bad made project but having large user base is a win. Because projects need to solve user problems first.
But if project is made in a clean nice presented way + user base, that is double win

https://shapevpn.com/ having deployed web sites as part of portfolio is also very preferable for backend dev of course.
Here is cool tool i made that installs self hosted wireguard to server 🙂
in one click, assuming u have rented ubuntu 20.04 server

at the moment refactoring it, cleaning up its code and publishing to open source. Going to be my part of portfolio as well

even if i am having job, and already middle dev, i strive for better? pet projects matter for all dev ranks, usually if u do them. u show your entusiasm to programming outside of just doing job and getting money. Next plan also participating in open source minecraft modding community to get hang of java better

pet projects are also great way to acquire practice, for stuff you aren't always given during job, because u have insufficient access/rank. They are kind of pretty much necessary for growth often enough

obviously your pet projects.. should be incorporating technologies you wish to present yourself with 🙂 if u a backend guy, more backend oriented projects are preferable.
But always it is important to have user oriented projects first, while also having fun! (that is what for pet projects. Fun and enthusiasm. You need to keep in mind that you will be maintaining your project... for new features or bug fixes. For new releases of your product)

[sleek egret]

indeed. we hired a guy who wrote a trading bot (more than just D/L some code and adapting it) on his own. it was rather crude but it proved to us that he sorta knew what he was doing and that he had the dedication to do it.

he still had to show he knew enough math (he did) and accounting (he did). he still had a lot to learn, of course. but that was fine.

because of his side project, we gave him a chance where otherwise we would not have.

[buoyant seal]

https://npigeons.com/ here is a great example of Machine Learning project btw (not mine)
Person made product that in Viva La Dirt videos, tracked all encounters of all characters across its small videos and gives links to users to the video it mentions them
I woud get such machine learning guy right away 😆

[stuck turret]

i created a financial Auditing Automation tool, but my code stayed in the company i worked for as a Senior Financial Auditor xD, written in VBA but the effects were massive..

[sleek egret]

but as @buoyant seal alluded to, your side project can't be something trivial to be taken seriously. it needs to have some meat to it.

[stuck turret]

this looks fun xD

[buoyant seal]

they should be having explicitely defined CLI, or even Discord Frontend or Web site frontend interfaces preferably
Something that u can show off in pictures with excplicitely defined interface how users can interact with it
And interface should be documented / understandable how to use! (Python Argparse / Click library help to build self documentable CLI interfaces for example)

[sleek egret]

awesome, that's something to highlight on your resume then

[stuck turret]

i did.. still no luck ;p

[stuck turret]

i really need to learn documentation methods

[buoyant seal]

for python, Sphinx and MKdocs autodeployed to Github Pages is a good way.
Besides that FastAPI and Django Ninja auto generates Redoc/OpenAPI documentation to REST API if u use their abilities in the right way
draw.io and mermaid.js for diagrams, mermaid.js draws diagrams as a code, which github / gitlab can automatically render (or mkdocs/sphinx)

[sleek egret]

python documentation generation systems are a mess, IMO

sphinx both impresses me and makes me hate it. mkdocs is too restrictive, IMO, etc, etc