career-advice

[vital wyvern]

I am not qualified to argue with you, but I am qualified to tell you that individuals that have experience in the industry have let me know that that very perception is likely misplaced.

[spark cobalt]

I think it's still worth to mention. He was able to come out on top from thousands upon thousands of students.

[vital wyvern]

Frankly you might be able to two-birds one-stone that by contributing to open source. Build a network contributing to these projects while at the same time helping expand your projects themselves.

[spark cobalt]

It's an achievement within himself. Is there a lot of luck to it? Sure. But you can assume at minimum that whoever Amazon accepts is top tier.

Not only do you get a good candidate, but also a lucky one. What a perfect match.

[vital wyvern]

I'm rapidly becoming convinced that quantbros have a persecution complex.

Considering I'm pursuing a role as a financial analyst with no formal education, yes.

I'm not going to give that information out?

It is an internship.

Specifically an 8 week internship with a fairly high rate of follow-on employment.

[spark cobalt]

The idea that "college doesn't matter" is really loaded. Is that to suggest that a college that has better resources and better connections to companies or have a reputation for producing high quality candidates doesn't help?

[vital wyvern]

You should go to college. I am going to college. I am not saying don't go to college. I want to make sure that is very clear.

[spark cobalt]

That wasn't my point.

[dreamy shadow]

You sure? Let me jumble your words next.

[spark cobalt]

[vital wyvern]

I wasn't really directly replying to you, just trying to make sure my point was clear-- I am very lucky in my past experiences, and that is helping me reenter the field in the civilian sector. Not everyone will have that opportunity.

[dreamy shadow]

I though you were a working professional. Didn't you state you had clearance before? Or are you changing industry?

[spark cobalt]

It really wasn't. My point is a better college does help, the difference between a T1 and T2 isn't as negligible as people are making it seem.

[vital wyvern]

Roles are hard to explain in relation to the military lol.

[spark cobalt]

Especially when you have little projects, little connections, little experience as a college student, something employers can rely on is the colleges filtering process.

[vital wyvern]

I had an analyst role in the military, it was often not my primary job title, despite that I was managing fairly large datasets and significant analytics. Now that I'm separating, I need to reenter the field because my duty titles and the tools I've worked with are not up to par with the industry standards, but it doesn't mean I lack experience forthright.

At some point I'll filter out my resume and toss it up here to add some context; you guys are around here frequently enough that I don't mind sharing how I'm framing a lot of my opinions/statements.

[dreamy shadow]

If applicant in T1 School: Return Accept, else: Return Reject

[dreamy shadow]

Oh, that makes more sense. Core analytics is still analytics. Tools matter less.

[white relic]

In my experience, which college you go to makes very little difference to the quality of your education or to hiring managers or other professionals. The other differences between candidates are much more significant. "Tier 1" schools aren't really a thing we actively consider.

[night dock]

Has anyone got an assessment for quantitive analyst position with squarepoint? I'm wondering how many rounds of interviews I will get?
also what kind of questions do they even test me on? I know some are coding but I'm from a electircal and computer engineering background, so im not familiar with finance

[white relic]

That doesn't mean that going to a top school doesn't help. But it's more in those indirect ways like having more access to better networks.

[vital wyvern]

Bingo. I know how to do the analysis, I've done the analysis, I just haven't used a lot of the tools for the analysis that are commonly used. That's why I'm here in PyDis-- to learn as much as I can about a common tool. 🙂

[dreamy shadow]

You should tell my company that. The resumes I saw for our DS intern position in NY was literally 2 schools: NYU or UC Berkeley.

[dreamy shadow]

Unless you still learning/using SAS. Back to the stone age for you.

[vital wyvern]

All insights were generated through tedious Excel macros and VBA, and displayed to stakeholders for literal life or death decisions/multi-billion dollar assets on a PowerPoint slide.

[delicate bane]

dos still has some experience so thats a huge, huge leg up. also like wilder said, europe and us def have dif markets

[white relic]

I would add that many "top tier" schools got their reputations for research, not for undergraduate studies. If you have a PhD, it can make a big difference where you got it, just in terms of what resources you had access to

[delicate bane]

ah sounds about right. then the guy who maintains the macros leaves and all hell breaks loose

[dreamy shadow]

Tbh you would fit right into insurance.

[vital wyvern]

That is... precisely who I am. And I have about 10 unread text messages relating to that exact topic.

In my defense, I tried to document before I left.

[delicate bane]

bruh they got you good

[dreamy shadow]

no one read docs

[delicate bane]

some docs > no docs

[true harness]

no docs >. the despair after finding incomplete docs is worse

[vital wyvern]

I wouldn't mind doing insurance-- or anything analytics really. I actually just love the career field. Looking at data in unique ways and providing insights that others might not be able to is something I really really like about DA.

[dreamy shadow]

If someone read the docs, I wouldn't have been in 3 separate meetings that's basically "Wtf did bob do before he left" >Bob has like 50 KT docs.

[white relic]

I mean, OK. there being a lot more "T1" schools in between those two, that kind of speaks to me about there being a bias that isn't really about university quality, but I can't really comment on that not knowing anything about your company

[dreamy shadow]

That was a joke because insurance is also held together by duck tape and gum excel and ppts.

I think the only ones that weren't those 2 schools were those that had a masters.

Or actual work experience, pivoting industry.

But also my original point was sarcastic in nature. Clear bias to end up with just 2 schools in the "final" applicant pool.

[vital wyvern]

A prolific DA I follow once said that most analysis can be done with SQL and Excel, and the tools we have now are simply ways for us to batch process data faster.

Note that's not a commentary on data science, where I'm pretty sure you need a PhD to break into at this point, because I'm struggling with the concepts lol

[delicate bane]

or worse, finding out the documentation is just wrong. yknow what i tell my friends? i call that negative documentation

[vital wyvern]

I could've documented better. Sometimes my endless stream of wordvomit can make its way into official documentation and make training individuals on it... difficult.

[white relic]

I mean, if you say so 🤷‍♂️

[true harness]

I don't know what that means

[delicate bane]

tbh this. also communication skills. i think DS should go in the directions of product, engineering, etc. i would post the DS eevee specialization pic but sky might get annoyed at me

[true harness]

I guess? I did one for HRT

I've never heard that term. it was just 4 questions

[delicate bane]

#career-advice message

[dreamy shadow]

LOL, I forgot about all the reactions.

[true harness]

I got 3/4. sadly one of the questions made no sense to me

[vital wyvern]

I need to update my LinkedIn if I want to branch out into the poser subspecialty.

[delicate bane]

you are the real unhinged bing chat

[true harness]

no, 1,3,4

[delicate bane]

mikiko b. has great content on mlops/ml eng if thats your interest or are curious about the "subspecialty"

[true harness]

¯_(ツ)_/¯ I don't even know what a GCA is

yes, denied

yeah, I'm not really the kind of applicant they want

[earnest hollow]

Hi guys. I’m new. I was wondering if it’s possible to get a job if I only know the python language

[true harness]

why HYP 🤔. those aren't even that well known for CS

[true harness]

probably not. generally other skills are also required

[earnest hollow]

Like what?

[white relic]

depends what kind of job. Python is used in many different fields

[earnest hollow]

For AI

[near ocean]

Are messages missing or is psv talking to himself

[white relic]

sigmasigma was here moments ago, not sure what happened

[true harness]

dunno why they're deleting all their messages

[dreamy shadow]

Maybe said too much? Preventing accidently doxing themselves.

[true harness]

they were kinda mundane though

it seems i have not been selected for further interviews 😔 😭. well i say "seems". technically i haven't heard a response

[dreamy shadow]

Tough market right now.

[sleek egret]

this retroactive censorship makes me uncomfortable

[vital wyvern]

Are you US based?

[true harness]

indeed

[vital wyvern]

Are you able to obtain a clearance?

[delicate bane]

probably means they selected a candidate already. maybe.

[vital wyvern]

If you're open to relocating, Raytheon just dropped their SWE and internships, and they'll progressively do so over the next few weeks.

[true harness]

hmm i thought i already applied to raytheon

[vital wyvern]

Summer and fall internships are currently on the careers page, I'm tracking on a few that haven't been posted AFAIK, but they're both more senior roles.

There's two ML internships at the moment, I don't remember if you said that was your thing.

[dreamy shadow]

I saw a posting on there: 20k minimum sign on bonus.

AZ, oh that's why.

[chrome summit]

I never seen a job post a minimum signing bonus. It normally can be negotiated. They must really need someone.

[vital wyvern]

I haven't looked through this specifically, but:
https://careers.rtx.com/global/en/job/01577636/Software-Engineer-Co-Op-Summer-Fall-2023-On-site

Rest in peace, there's still some summer internships posted. It might be too early for fall internships

[dreamy shadow]

Yep lol

[chrome summit]

LOL - Normally you see that in healthcare roles like Nurses

[delicate bane]

i thought you were going the finance route

wait what

[vital wyvern]

I mean 'quant' is a lot of the same statistics that ML algorithms are applying anyway. It's probably a decent foundation.

[delicate bane]

im confuzzled. why is it not for you?

[chrome summit]

A lot of finance firms want PhDs for quants typically unless you do things like model validation

[vital wyvern]

Machine Learning seems to be applied statistics from my non-expert perspective.

[chrome summit]

ahh ok

[vital wyvern]

That seems dangerously specialized.

[chrome summit]

Very well paid if a trader

[vital wyvern]

There's a SWE opening for a quant focused company in my hometown atm. Pay is... pretty nutty.

[chrome summit]

I have seen six figure sign ons for non trader quants

[vital wyvern]

No.

[delicate bane]

plenty of memes about this. as long as you dont forget those previous specialties (ml eng/mlops) too where eng skills would be needed. but nuance doesnt make good headlines.

or memes lol

but you literally said swe wasnt for you..?

[vital wyvern]

Yeah, it's a deliberately face value take because... well that's about how far my knowledge extends.

[delicate bane]

i think its a good, as they like to say, "heuristic"

also dont underestimate good heuristics, especially with regards to domain-specific knowledge. before trying ML, always try heuristics first and go from there.

ohhh. like 10 years, 20 years? how far we talking

bruh. idk if thats long term. mid term maybe

[chrome summit]

lol

[delicate bane]

too bad. the computer scientists get to name all the cool things instead

[vital wyvern]

Ah yes, the kernel, kernel, and the kernel.

[chrome summit]

No - I am not in FO. I worked in risk related roles.

[delicate bane]

ah you love to see it. overloaded ML terms ftw 👏

[vital wyvern]

I'm glad you picked up on what I was actually implying there, because as I'm delving further into statistics and peripherally learning about CS and Linalg, that term got me for awhile.

[chrome summit]

A lot of people for the research route tend to go after CFAs. I know someone who started in a unrelated role and actually made connections to move into research. He got the CFA right before moving.

[delicate bane]

dw youll run into plenty more. vectors, matrices, convolutions, etc.

[vital wyvern]

I should be clear, I don't fancy myself a Data Scientist and while I think the roles are blurring a bit between DS/DA, I'm not learning it for professional application (yet.) I don't have the foundational skills to self teach ML.

[delicate bane]

software eng has its own overloaded terms as well. API being a prime example.

[vital wyvern]

If you asked me to factor a polynomial I'm pretty sure I'd end up writing Hamlet with all the letters instead of doing the math problem correctly.

Pay attention in school kids, math is hard to self-teach.

Honestly it's kind of why I like DA. My ability to present information graphically and talk about that information is just as important as my literal analysis. It's a cool fusion of design, math, programming, and communications.

[delicate bane]

you could take a course in linear algebra if you find structured learning works better for you — i know it does for me

[vital wyvern]

I'm going to school for Cybersecurity in the Fall, and I'll be taking on a fairly math heavy courseload in the pursuit of getting smart on that.

[spark cobalt]

I found that for LA, learning both the geometric and the algebraic way of looking at it concurrently helps a lot. Typically books only do one way or the other..

[delicate bane]

ah gotcha. then that would be good. sounds like youll be set regardless of the path you choose

[spark cobalt]

For statistics, Probablistic Machine Learning by Kevin Murphy is really really solid. Starts from high school level statistics and goes super in depth. Free on the authors GitHub.

[vital wyvern]

A.) I'm reading this currently.
B.) No the fuck it doesn't lol

[spark cobalt]

It starts from basic distributions no?

[vital wyvern]

'Let us suppose for simplicity.' MR. MURPHY I DONT KNOW WHAT THESE SYMBOLS MEAN

[spark cobalt]

It's very condensed, the goal is to understand each page thoroughly before going onto the next.

Don't move on if you don't understand the previous page. My first reading I made this mistake...

[spark cobalt]

Which symbol? They very precisely define all of these in the text, and there's also a glossary of symbols at the beginning

X = set
x = value of set
E = expected value (mean)
p = probability

[vital wyvern]

Why is mean not written in the traditional sense with x and the line deal.

[true harness]

because it's not the mean

[vital wyvern]

I switched gears a bit and I’m working through this for now.

[spark cobalt]

What is the x with the line

[vital wyvern]

x bar

[spark cobalt]

That's not the same as expected value

X bar is for sample I thought

[vital wyvern]

x-bar is arithmetic mean.

[spark cobalt]

Dunno maybe the professionals can comment on it

[vital wyvern]

Regardless of this entire discussion, I feel you overestimate my math skills, which are built primarily on intuition and not an actual knowledge of the content. I stumbled across robust summary statistics purely on intuition, with no formal reference. median absolute deviation and truncated mean were just fancy ways my brain thought to get a more accurate summaries of large data sets.

I understand that's hard to believe, but math is not my forte. I will work on it, but right now that's a little bit of a reach for me. And I'm okay with that, I just gotta' keep learning. 🙂

[spark cobalt]

Math isn't really my forte either, but it's necessary 😦

[vital wyvern]

Absolutely. I'm workin' on it! I don't like not knowing this stuff. I just ordered some LinAlg textbooks following a discussion last night on FFT's and convolution.

I have Edd to thank for an extreme desire to be able to understand and talk about these things at a reasonably intelligent level.

[true harness]

you're not supposed to be ghosted after being interviewed right 😭

[vital wyvern]

Reach 👏 Out 👏 And 👏 Ask

[true harness]

i feel like 2sigma now. it's been 10 hours. but they did say they'd reach out later in the day

[vital wyvern]

It's been 10 hours since your interview and you feel like you've been ghosted?

The fastest response I've had regarding my last few interviews was 5 days.

[summer roost]

ah, but did they say which day?

[true harness]

yeah it went something like "she [presumably the person in charge of the team i'd be in] usually responds pretty quickly, so i'll send over my notes and i'll probably get back to you by the end of the day"

[summer roost]

"probably", eh? 🙂

if it helps, "no" usually comes faster than "yes"

there's more stuff to do or figure out with "yes" or "maybe" than there is with "no"

[true harness]

my cope levels: 📈

[delicate bane]

bruhhh

[true harness]

is that not why your name is your name

it's a relatively small healthcare company

what does relatively small mean to you 🤔

[summer roost]

also... it would be a bad sign if a company reached out to you now, 10 hours after your interview. That'd mean that they're working longer-than-normal hours.

[true harness]

well yeah but like, before the end of the day yk

[amber wharf]

@true harness are you interested in quant finance

[true harness]

not particularly

@modern ore what was that question you wanted to ask? you pinged this morning

[amber wharf]

Well If anyone is interested I have resources that is given out to junior quants to study, I would be more than happy to send it if you would like.

[true harness]

are they like, private? just send them here for everyone

[amber wharf]

Yeah sure

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/921204924434493450/1026450502931722310/roadmap_3.pdf

[vital wyvern]

This just further reinforces my perception that 'quants' are weird. Behold, this clean professional book cover, with the most wordy subtitle ever placed on a 'book'. I will use this resource exclusively to link URL's, which... doesn't follow the intention of a book at all.

[delicate bane]

woo healthcare.

[true harness]

kidneys 👍

[vital wyvern]

I'm in the market, at the rate I consume caffeinated drinks, I'll likely need one soon.

[karmic token]

me 👀

[vital wyvern]

I've seen a lot of books that are green. You'll have to be more specific.

[vapid jay]

i give the python test am good?

[deft herald]

Sounds like you need to study more ( 🤷‍♂️ )

[true harness]

"You must study harder!"

[deft herald]

what is this quiz?

Ah found it

[true harness]

link 🥺

[deft herald]

https://www.w3schools.com/quiztest/quiztest.asp?qtest=PYTHON

[true harness]

wow that quiz is terrible

[peak halo]

if it's a quiz by w3schools, you probably have to pick an incorrect answer to get points.

[deft herald]

right?

[true harness]

the questions about float and int literals, yikes

[peak halo]

it's better than I thought it was going to be

but I don't think this is really relevant to careers.

[karmic token]

by question 3 is we've already reached completely incorrect information

[halcyon mortar]

I’m thinking about learning a new programming language for job prospects for web dev. I’m thinking either Go, Rust, or Ruby on Rails. What should I pick?

[ivory sluice]

for web dev in particular what about javascript/typescript?

[halcyon mortar]

More in terms of backend stuff

[spark cobalt]

Go is becoming increasingly popular.

[ivory sluice]

idrk web dev but think i had heard ruby on rails was pretty much dead

[halcyon mortar]

Yeah I’ve heard the same kinda

[ivory sluice]

was extremely popular for a while though

[halcyon mortar]

And I’d be competing with veteran boomers for jobs

Hard to compete in that applicant pool

[halcyon mortar]

Hmm I’ve heard awesome things about Go

[summer roost]

of those 3 languages, I think Rust would probably expand your opportunities the most (assuming you already know Python and JavaScript)

[halcyon mortar]

Yeah Rust sounds good

[summer roost]

Ruby tends to be used in the same sorts of areas as Python does, so I definitely wouldn't pick up Ruby unless/until you need it. It doesn't open a different part of the stack to you. Rust does. Possibly Go as well, but my impression is that Go is falling in popularity and Rust is rising.

[halcyon mortar]

Hmm I’ve heard a lot of buzz about Rust

[spark cobalt]

Yeah Rust is definitely rising in popularity

[halcyon mortar]

And knowing Rust will have me stand out

What’s Rust used for? It’s like low level, right?

[summer roost]

yeah, low level, compiled, statically typed

I'd focus on some language that tends to be used for performance-sensitive or low level backend stuff. That's neither JS nor Python. That's Rust, Java, C, C++, Go, etc.

[spark cobalt]

I heard some companies use Rust for backend web dev, but I think Go rn is the more popular choice for that.

[halcyon mortar]

Not a fan of Java from what I’ve seen of it

C++ is cool. I watched a vid series on it. Pointers didn’t seem that bad

[spark cobalt]

Every job description I've seen with Java in it asks for Golang and they're fine if you're fluent in Java (presumably train you to do Golang lol)

[halcyon mortar]

Rust has definitely piqued my interest

[summer roost]

the obvious answer here is to look for job ads for jobs that look interesting to you but that you think you wouldn't be hired for because you're missing some skill they ask for. Collect a bunch of them, and see which skill you're missing the most, then pick up that one.

[halcyon mortar]

Yeah will do that

I’ll check for Rust, GoLang. I don’t think many web dev jobs use C++ but it’s dope to know if I ever use unreal extensively

[summer roost]

I don't think it's very heavily used in web dev, but it might help you branch out of web dev.

perhaps into game dev - it is used very heavily there

[halcyon mortar]

Yeah I kinda want to branch out a bit

Engine I have most experience with is Godot (I’m making a project in it). I’m familiar with Unity but not a huge fan. But Unreal is really cool from what I’ve seen of it

[delicate bane]

the github monolith (.com) uses ruby on rails. they def ran into some problems/limitations. cool podcast mentioning how they solved some of these issues though.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3py3RcEO23rv8PfMUqyc0U?si=CeELv6P1S3uqNP-qkTtEww

[ivory sluice]

oh that's super interesting

i had read an article about what it took for linkedin to move to their monolithic repos to thousands of git repos on github

https://github.com/readme/guides/github-enterprise-LinkedIn?mc_cid=a4f2471506&mc_eid=b0b05da5c1

[delicate bane]

yeah this one is github itself. the platform. also rachel potvin talks about lots of eng culture stuff.

shes a really, really good speaker most def.

[ivory sluice]

listening now

[delicate bane]

def bookmarking this. thanks

[ivory sluice]

but this kind of strategic stuff is right up my alley

[delicate bane]

yeah she actually talks about different practices that help make for better dev experience and such

like she shared her story how she was in charge of 3 teams that had completely different working styles/culture/etc. as a result of acquisitions.

[delicate bane]

1. one was one of the original github teams (startup mentality, "ship to test", etc.)
2. one was a microsoft team (traditional enterprise, heavy on standard process, etc.)
3. one was a european team ("these americans are too excited about everything. when you are excited about everything, you are excited about nothing") 💀💀💀

[west badger]

Is it possible for a high school student to get an internship even for a less rated company?

[delicate bane]

yeah she had to get all 3 working together. kinda wild tbh

[ivory sluice]

@rare sand this is right up your alley too

[rare sand]

hell yeah, thanks for the link. changelog is a good podcast, been listening for years.

[ivory sluice]

this woman is high key role model material

[ivory sluice]

she also loves your favorite word, culture

[summer roost]

possible but unlikely

[rare sand]

hahaha, how dare you.

[vital wyvern]

!8ball Is it possible for a high school student to get an internship even for a less rated company?

[west badger]

Lmaoooo 8 ball

[vital wyvern]

Oh lame. 😦 That was an entertainingly 8-ball answer geek :3

[rare sand]

what does "less rated" mean in this context

[west badger]

Like not the top companies the lower ones

[rare sand]

haha, but what decides which company is "top" and which is "lower"?

[west badger]

Like you know it is already decided that MIT is one of the best university but Georgia State University is lower compared to it

Lmao the example was bad but you might get what I wanna say

[rare sand]

it sounds like you're saying "some things are better than others". I don't disagree, but with MIT it's probably rated on academic achievement, how expensive it is to attend, famous alumni.. with a company it seems less obvious. I mean for "top" you could probably look at fortune 500 or something, but that covers very few companies out if the total pool.

[west badger]

Yeah true

Lemme rephrase that by lower rated companies I mean the local companies not the companies that are world wide popular

@rare sand

[rare sand]

fair enough.

[west badger]

Yup

Finally you got my point
Good Job

[white agate]

hi guys

[spark cobalt]

Yes.

[lament pawn]

Hi everyone

[opaque adder]

Hi

[lament pawn]

Are there BI tools written in python ?

[buoyant seal]

if u mean under BI tools, data visualization tools for different analytics, then we can consider Jypiter being one

[coral hound]

Just did an interview, they're legit advertising a devops role but calling it software role because devops costs more, not jk

which is fine as I am a devops eng, BUT they legit want both, they want someone to own their devops process and write software

I was like, yeah you can find people like that but not unless you add another 100k 😂

[rare sand]

"DevOps roles" shouldn't exist. it seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of the whole concept of DevOps.

once you have DevOps engineers in a DevOps department, congratulations, you've reinvented Ops.

the whole point of devops is for devs to be empowered to handle the ops themselves, so that we finally don't need a separate department for it. we're trying to get away from devs and ops being different departments and all the toxic infighting and handovers and conflicts and throwing the pig over the fence type problems that stemmed from that.

imo, in an ideal software engineering team, the team owns their own software completely, end-to-end, and understand everything they need to understand about DevOps without any special roles or departments to help out.

[peak halo]

devopsception!

the idea that a development team would hand something off to an ops team sounds strange to me. wouldn't a lot of time be lost transferring knowledge between teams?

[buoyant seal]

You are asking for too many skills from all people.
People struggle with rarely working out full stack.
You suggest everyone to be efficient in their specialization + infra

For a person to know his specialization+ infra stuff requires mindset of liking both and being crazy enough to learn both in time. That is not for everyone for sure

[fleet reef]

yes

[buoyant seal]

Ergh... On another hand if we ask people just to care seeing and reacting to logs, errors of maintenance information in regards to their part of work. That is not asking much

[true harness]

re: sending followup emails. my college just sent this out,

Remember to always follow up after completing an interview! Studies show that 91% of employers like to receive follow-up thank you notes- and yet, 57% of candidates don’t send them. Stand out by sending them a short thank you email no more than 24 hours after an interview!
thoughts?

[rare sand]

as someone who manages engineering teams and hires devs, I've never had any trouble finding staff who were capable. and I don't think you really need a very deep understanding of infra to do DevOps the way it is intended to be done, once you're leveraging CI/CD fully, using managed observability systems, relying primarily on serverless functions and edge routing, using infrastructure as code to manage the cloud services you can't live without and running all IaC changes through a code review and linting process, nobody on that team needs to be an infra expert.

[peak halo]

what about the person who sets up that paragraph of things you said?

[rare sand]

no team is homogenous. it's helpful to have one or two members who are a little more passionate about improving workflows and developer experience than the rest.

[buoyant seal]

😄 sounds lovely

And sounds like hard to find people like that

[rare sand]

not as hard as you might think. the modern day renaissance man is becoming less and less mythical for every passing year.

full stack is the only relevant stack

keep up or fall behind

I straight up just don't hire devs who consider themselves married to one particular aspect of the stack.

you can be an expert front end dev, that's great, but I need you to be open to learning and working outside of your comfort zone too.

[buoyant seal]

may be I will pass then such criteria. I married to backend and infra at the same time. With trying front for few months in Vue.js as just... to complete experience of web dev 😅

[rare sand]

t shaped competence, is the buzzword. jack of all trades and master of one.

[zealous path]

If an applicant said “I only code in Python and will not learn another language” then I get it but there’s a point where you’re trading off quality for quantity.
A lot of full stack developers are really smart but why not have someone who is REALLY good at back end and someone who is REALLY good at front end to make sure your product is the best it can be?

[rare sand]

I still do. but those devs are also capable and willing to do stuff that isn't backend or frontend. Which benefits everyone.

like I said, they're not equally good at everything, they're usually fantastic at one or two things and capable enough to be useful at others.

maybe in huge companies, it's easier to get away with a dev who refuses to do anything but backend, but on smaller teams, versatility is extremely important.

I'm not looking for Python experts or backend developers, I want smart engineers who can solve whatever problem I throw at them.

[buoyant seal]

Ergh... But inevitably Devs can be having ... Very high undesire to work with some topics.... Like... PHP, C, JS and etc. Surely there is a limit to flexibility of your expectations?

And there is a limit with which amount of languages and technologies one Dev can keep up

[leaden jasper]

I know in engineering settings, it's very helpful to people that dabble in multiple disciplines. Simply for the benefit that integration becomes much, much easier. You save so much time if people have some basic understanding in each other's areas

[rare sand]

the right solution to this is to let the engineers have the autonomy to choose the technology they solve problems with. I've never dictated implementation details to my teams. I'd never force them to write something in PHP if there was a better alternative (and let's face it, there almost always is, PHP sucks.)

but sometimes you have no choice but to work with a technology that sucks. maybe it's a proprietary language that must be used when working with some system that a client relies on.

and in those cases, I can't have devs who say "nope, not for me"

[buoyant seal]

Or using JS/TS is your only option to frontend (if we forget about appearing WASM) 😐

[rare sand]

if we have to work with tech that the team hates, we have to, but you can usually avoid it.

[buoyant seal]

Sounds lovely and fair in general 😉

[rare sand]

generally speaking, I don't let management spec solutions for my team to implement. they only get to write requirements. the devs will come up with the implementation details.

only they are qualified to.

so that usually ends up with them working with tech they love

...but you still have to fix that bug on that old legacy WordPress site we're maintaining from 7 years ago, sorry.

[leaden jasper]

From a practical perspective, it costs you nothing to send a thank you email. It leaves a positive impression and is a quick reminder.

But if a company is set on a candidate, then not receiving a thank you email will likely not affect the offer. Is it nice to get one? Sure. Is it going to be the difference maker? Probably not unless they're torn between candidates

[true harness]

yeah i'm a little concerned about the wording. "91% like to receive" isn't very convincing that it actually matters for the decision

[rare sand]

I'd be concerned too

any sentence that starts with "studies show" is already in trouble.

[peak halo]

Studies show that any sentence that starts with "studies show" is already in trouble.

[rare sand]

studies show that 91% of studies are total bullshit

[peak halo]

As an academic, I am permanently offended.

[true harness]

well, you said you hire devs, right? do followup letters matter to you?

[rare sand]

not really. I've usually made a decision before the interview ends.

no amount of follow up emails will change that.

but it depends on the nature of the relationship

I mean, if this is a contractor who you might casually do some business with at some point in the future, then following up sounds smart.

reminding the employer that you exist.

[true harness]

for "no" decisions, right? i'm assuming for "yes" you would need to wait for all interviews to finish so you can compare?

[rare sand]

well.. sure.

not saying I hire on the spot

but I have a pretty good idea after 30 minutes in a call, and it rarely shifts later on.

[peak halo]

have you ever had an interview that was going well for the interviewee, but then they said something that irredeemably ruined their chances?

[true harness]

i see 🤔. thanks for the insight. it seems most of the people on here don't care about thank you emails

[rare sand]

yes. oof.

something.. insensitive was said late in the interview. destroyed their chances.

maybe a better word is intolerant.

[vestal kettle]

I guess thank you mail means nothing for specialized job - you are not good in tech and a thank you mail won't change that.

But could mean something for other jobs?

[cloud spindle]

After having lost a bit of motivation i started the Harvard CS50 course.

First week was using scratch. This is my project. Have some fun.

https://discordapp.com/channels/743204414298521690/743599765329281034/1080353260495441920

[graceful mason]

This is how it works at my company and I'm always surprised to hear it doesn't work like that at a lot of places.
We all work on frontend/backend/embedded/cloud etc, but everyone ends up being more knowledgeable in certain areas (either through passion or the amount of work they've happen to done on it). You end up with everyone being able to tackle any problem thrown at them, and knowing who you can go to if you need advice

[sleek egret]

yar

[sleek egret]

Back in the day, refusing to do tasks that are assigned was called "insubordination" and grounds for termination.

[buoyant seal]

well, if you are getting assigned Media Marketing promoting tasks... while it was like... totally not in your Dev contract to do. I would certainly complain... and complained. Thank you very much. I am dev, not a spammer.

[prisma gate]

I'm really considering dropping out of college and self-teaching myself. Has this ever happened to any of you? Were any of you able to get any internships or careers going the self-taught route?

[pine sleet]

If your circumstances allow you to stay one college, do. see this for more details: #career-advice message

[prisma gate]

I'm not really learning any CS concepts right now in college so I have been learning much on my own and I think I've been doing ok so far.

[pine sleet]

It's an unfortunate fact but those with a formal higher education degree have an easier time finding jobs

[zealous path]

That piece of paper might not mean a lot to you but it does to recruiters

[pine sleet]

FWIW college is a lot more than just the piece of paper you get
The opportunities, and the structured nature is still good to have

[prisma gate]

I might stay for another year and see how I feel about it then.

I'm still trying hard to land an internship this year, which I believe is possible.

[sleek egret]

of course it's possible to have a career after dropping out. but it's harder.

[deft summit]

any one from pakistan

[sleek egret]

you will also be locked out of some companies and positions.

[spark cobalt]

Not just some, probably most lol. Since nearly all companies posting junior/entry level roles are getting many, many applications of people with a college degree

[sleek egret]

if you don't live in an wealthy nation, not having a degree will mean it's very difficult to get a work permit in another nation

[deft summit]

bro i joined my graduation study after failing for 4 years for that piece of ELectrical Enineering Certificate

[spark cobalt]

At least when I was job hunting, I was blocked out of almost 100% of companies.

[sleek egret]

essentially, lots of roadblocks and bad pavement ahead

[spark cobalt]

99.87% to be exact.

[sleek egret]

lol, it's good to be exact

[spark cobalt]

[deft summit]

so annoying

[spark cobalt]

Every self taught person other than those that have something to sell to you or have other goals in life besides maximizing their career will tell you to go to college. I myself as well.

[chrome summit]

Bad move - Your goal is to open doors rather than slamming them shut.

College is intended to teach you how to think and show you have discipline now that you are an adult

[sleek egret]

well, in fairness, there are some successful self-taught people who have a chip on their shoulders and actively encourage kids to take the hard path out of some weird desire for affirmation

[zealous path]

As Wilder said, the only time you should drop out of college is when you have another path already open to you (ideally some sort of business that is already providing for you)

[chrome summit]

College is about showing you are well rounded and also gives you the opportunity to meet people that can be future connections

[sleek egret]

even then you probably shouldn't

[spark cobalt]

Parties parties parties 😮‍💨

[sleek egret]

I like parties

[spark cobalt]

At least staying over at some colleges and meeting people there, it feels like high school just everyone is legally an adult and they're away from parents, which is a recipe for lots of fun and lack of discipline lol.

[pine sleet]

oh god I dont want to do high school again

[sleek egret]

Note, you don't have to major in CS. If that path is too difficult for you, choose an easier major and take a few CS classes.

[zealous path]

^^^^^
I’m already introverted, at least Uni forced me to interact with my flat mates

[sleek egret]

literally any undergrad degree is preferable to none

I've known devs who majored in music, in religious studies, in architecture, etc, etc

[spark cobalt]

If I went to college I'd go for music ngl

[sleek egret]

a music degree shows dedication in both learning theory and practicing practical skills

[prisma gate]

So I might just try and find an internship to gain some experience.

[sleek egret]

most internships in the business world are done through universities

[spark cobalt]

Note that many companies don't treat internship as "real professional experience"

[prisma gate]

I'll probably stay for another year, might just try and aim for an associate's degree.

[spark cobalt]

And also many of these internships expect that you still stay in school to be qualified for return offer.

[chrome summit]

@spark cobalt stop reading my mind

LOL - Was going to write those things

[spark cobalt]

Pigs united 😤

[sleek egret]

pigs?

[spark cobalt]

I'm self taught, I will tell you that you're setting yourself up for a LOT of trouble. Without a bachelor's, you have to learn how to seriously sell yourself and compel employers to take a risk on someone that dropped out of college.

[chrome summit]

Internship is meant to benefit the company. It is there as a "test drive" of the candidate. It won't be treated as full experience since the tasks can vary drastically by company.

[spark cobalt]

To put that into numbers, I've applied to nearly 4000 jobs, got 2 offers from it.

[sleek egret]

That's dedication, man

[spark cobalt]

You have to network without the support of your college, which is largely location based. Meaning, you won't get accessible dev meetups if you're in Kansas.

[sleek egret]

If I could ++ you, I would

[spark cobalt]

Its all a numbers game. 0.13% response rate will do that lol

If I applied now, might be even lower.

[chrome summit]

I never had a job search longer than 5 submitted applications.

[sleek egret]

Many people would give up after 10 or 50 or 200 applications

[spark cobalt]

I've gotten stamps of approval by many managers, many PMs etc. If they're confident, I'm confident.

[true harness]

honestly I feel the same way. the classes I'm taking are too simple. but as Robin said there's more to college than the classes

[spark cobalt]

I got an offer in July 2022 already, beating out 3 other college grads. But the issue was it was in North Dakota and the pay was way too low for me to move there.

But that at minimum gave me the confidence to say hey, I was able to show someone I'm more capable than these college grads or at least compel them to hire me over college grads. I moved to San Jose in October and then continued my job hunt there.

[zealous path]

Year in industry >>>>>> Internship
😎😎😎

[spark cobalt]

Got employed a month later.

Networking is super fun. Helped me to practice communication in professional world, get referrals almost daily (though job I have now was pure cold apply), etc.

But ultimately it's a lot of work.

Was able to come off as a college student appearance-wise when I dressed up.

Now I'm back to dressing like a kid

[sleek egret]

lol

[prisma gate]

I'll explore my options. I'm still holding onto this plan I kind of already have. 6 projects and 2-3 internships before I try and apply for a full-time job.

[chrome summit]

The best way to be successful without a degree is to start your own company

but even then you need to understand business and accounting at a minimum

[sleek egret]

programming is such a funny field

[zealous path]

For those working in big companies (let’s say 200+ employees), does your company use Alteryx?

[sleek egret]

you ever hear people asking, "could I succeed as a self-taught accountant?"

[chrome summit]

Prior company did and current does not

[sleek egret]

or "why won't law firms hire me as a self taught lawyer?!?!?"

[zealous path]

Suits?

[chrome summit]

Company sizes are about 50-80K employees

[sleek egret]

only seen clips from suits on youtube

[zealous path]

Same

[true harness]

the series is ok for a few episodes and then they're all the same

[prisma gate]

But @spark cobalt, for how long did you stay at college?

[spark cobalt]

I didn't go to college. I did this right out of HS graduation. For reference, I'm still 18.

[chrome summit]

My experience is greater than Wilders age...rip

[spark cobalt]

A lot of my friends in the Bay are the same age range, have kids already graduated high school/older than me, etc.

[sleek egret]

I have shoes older than Wilder 🥴

[true harness]

oh wilder is 18? damn, what a boomer

[pine sleet]

Wild

[spark cobalt]

I turn 19 in June

[spark cobalt]

Bruh

[chrome summit]

aww still a teen lol

[sleek egret]

not to worry Wilder, kids will be calling you old before you know it,

[zealous path]

😳😳😳 Wilder is 19???!!!
I thought homie was 30 AT LEAST

[true harness]

that has actually happened to me more than I'd like to admit 😔

[spark cobalt]

My hairline will be proof for it and I wouldn't blame them

BUT RIGHT NOW, my hairline is fine tyvm

[zealous path]

Next you’ll tell me Rmah is actually 15

[sleek egret]

when I finally get into HS, I will be!

[spark cobalt]

Not like BALD BALD, but definitely need hair implants in the future lol.

[sleek egret]

just shave it all off

[spark cobalt]

Right now, growing my hair out so my hairline is invisible

[chrome summit]

accept the baldness

find a girl now and get married before you do lol

[zealous path]

The moment I start losing ANY hair, it’s all going off. Can’t have a bald spot if I’ve got no hair.

[spark cobalt]

Imma age like milk lol, I already feel my back crackling

[chrome summit]

milk would've expired already

[spark cobalt]

Off to work cya careers channels

[zealous path]

Cya

[chrome summit]

Wait you don't even know about the Y2K bug (the end of the world as we knew it!)

[true harness]

back in my day, we had Y1K

[pine sleet]

nahhh

[remote hound]

what is the best way to start and from where?

[pine sleet]

From your college

[true harness]

start what?

[chrome summit]

very carefully?

[sleek egret]

start life?

[true harness]

first you need to spin to see how much money you start with

[chrome summit]

you need to start with conception

[sleek egret]

what leads to conception though?

[remote hound]

coding and learning python

[pine sleet]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[sleek egret]

ah, python comes before

[chrome summit]

print("Hello World!")

[wise vortex]

the programming career entails inevitable baldness? Nice

just reading through the recent convo, is all

[knotty drum]

so are all the youtube "self taught" channels all snake oil salesmen? D:

i trusted you, tech with tim

[near ocean]

It depends, do they sell certificates or courses and then promise they can get you a job?

[sleek egret]

a job is not the same as a good job

[gaunt wren]

can someone give me some advice about a remote job no exp?

[smoky quest]

My advice would be: don't hesitate to over-communicate!

[gaunt wren]

what do you mean?

[smoky quest]

It means to not hesitate more than you think is necessary. Being remote means many of the usual social cues will be missing. And not everyone will have the same context. So over-communicating helps with that

[gaunt wren]

what i meant is advice on how to get 1

[smoky quest]

Oh that's a different question.
What is your current situation?

[gaunt wren]

school drop out and 19 years old living with grandparents

so not too good

[smoky quest]

No one in their right mind would hire remotely someone with no skills, no education and no experience.
So in order to get hired, that means you need to get a combination of these.

By decreasing order of value:

• CS degree
• bootcamp / self-taught

you can also check out https://roadmap.sh for a list of skills based on different roles.
In terms of self-taught, frontend is the easiest to get in, but still require effort and projects.

And without a degree, you will have to work a lot harder for less. So don't be surprised if you have to send hundreds/thousands of applications once you are ready

[chrome summit]

go back to school and get on the right track

It is very difficult to have no experience and no education for a highly paid field that is sought after. You need to be able to finish the basics and show you have what it takes.

[chrome summit]

made me think of the NINJA home loans prior to 2008 (No Income, No Job, and No Assets).

[smoky quest]

as usual: follow the money 😉

[gaunt wren]

i want to but i need money to finish it and my grandparents cant afford it

[gaunt wren]

what do you think is the best thing i can learn then?

[dreamy shadow]

What is your minimum education level?

[chrome summit]

I would recommend getting an entry level type job (either in an office setting or something that is better than minimum wage) and going to school part time at a community college as a start. Hopefully, you find a job that offers tuition reimbursement.

[dreamy shadow]

Most entry level jobs now (office setting) require a 4 year degree lol. I agree starting at community college (If you have a high school degree)

[gaunt wren]

i want to study So Eng and when i said remote i meant like entry level office job

[gaunt wren]

my country doesnt have community colledges

[chrome summit]

Not necessarily - customer service jobs def. do not require degrees or like an assistant type role

[gaunt wren]

the exchange rate in the us compared to where i live is 16 times more

[chrome summit]

that stinks - In the US, they are a great cost effective path to start

[gaunt wren]

and min wage is 7 times more

[dreamy shadow]

Yes, but US cost of living is also significantly higher.

[gaunt wren]

thats the reason im looking for remote because its way more money for a lower cost of living country by doing the same job

[dreamy shadow]

If your looking to get a remote US based job while living in a foreign country, that's pretty much next to impossible.

[gaunt wren]

?

[vapid jay]

hello im new

[gaunt wren]

why

[chrome summit]

US labor law won't allow it. They would need to be registered in the foreign country as an employer there then hire you at that country's rates or go through an outsourcing company.

[zealous topaz]

it is possible, though you'd have to be next to genius to have that kind of privileges. If you become #1 asset of the company, why not?

[chrome summit]

I know someone who did it the other way around. He pulled off being reclassed to a consultant and relocated to a low cost country while maintaining a US rate card but he was a US citizen.

[dreamy shadow]

That's putting a lot of faith into said company.

[gaunt wren]

so then what do you guys recommend i do

[white relic]

People who become successful consultants are probably solid enough that even if that company hadn't worked out, they could still have gotten another job.

It's much easier to become employed and then make the switch to consulting than to start a book of business as a consultant from nothing

[chrome summit]

The guy was very capable. A solid software developer with lots of risk management knowledge. He worked on the business side but had developed a lot of the systems.

[dreamy shadow]

General advice would be to go back to school as stated before. What country are you in?

[white relic]

checks out

[sleek egret]

hi hi

[gaunt wren]

south africa

[gaunt wren]

i cant go back im too old myt only options is GED and atb

[chrome summit]

Ohh you did not finish HS

[gaunt wren]

yeah i said school leaver

[chrome summit]

School leaver can mean college too especially at 19

[gaunt wren]

oh my bad

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, I assumed no HS. That's why I asked minimum education earlier.

[gaunt wren]

i just dunno what to do with my life

[chrome summit]

In US, you would not be able to get any remote job. HS drop outs only get minimum wage jobs or go into trades (construction, plumber, etc...). Trades would be best path.

[gaunt wren]

i want to do software engineering

[chrome summit]

Odds are stacked against you unless you finish HS then get a 4 year degree.

[gaunt wren]

and want a job so that i can pay for ged then go to uni

[dreamy shadow]

No one's hiring a non-HS graduate in corporate (unless your dad is the CEO)

[chrome summit]

and even then the CEO could get fired (if a public company)

[gaunt wren]

i want to do a bachelors and ive started with self study for about 4 months already but i need a jbob to go futher

couldnt i do something like data entry or proofreader or is that just a scam or same problem as with other remote jobs

[chrome summit]

Those jobs are normally scams

[gaunt wren]

so remote jobs arent a option at all?

[dreamy shadow]

My only advice is there are no shortcuts, finish your education.

[chrome summit]

Remote is not a viable option. You would need to do something local to where you are.

[gaunt wren]

then comes my other problem what do i put on my resume

i dont have work exp or a hs dip

[chrome summit]

For entry level jobs, you would not need a resume. They normally just have a job application you fill out. Only professional jobs need resumes but you would not qualify for those.

[gaunt wren]

whats a good example of a entry lvl job?

[chrome summit]

Fast food, dine-in restaurants, car wash, any retail type establishment, cross guard, ticket agent, etc...

[gaunt wren]

ill try it thx

[spark cobalt]

Couldn't you consider some loan options? Or look into the government benefits you can qualify for.

[chrome summit]

I hate to recommend loans. Loans are evil in my book. I think it is better to build the foundation and do it debt free.

[gaunt wren]

cant get a loan i have no credit score nor a job and what gov options are you refering too?

[spark cobalt]

College loans are no risk to the banks, you don't need credit score nor a job for it.

[zealous topaz]

there is a way, though this requires you joining us army, which means you have to relocate to the us from the first place. And even this has some severe limitations from your perspective.

[chrome summit]

They allow non-citizens to join military?

[spark cobalt]

Oh he's a non-citizen...

[chrome summit]

South Africa

[zealous topaz]

as long as they live in the us, they can join army. for any other branch, no no

[spark cobalt]

I wonder how deep this hole goes

[gaunt wren]

very deep.............

[dreamy shadow]

They are located in South Africa w/o a high school degree. It's been already suggested that they need to get a HS degree one way or another.

[gaunt wren]

how would i get a student loan

[dreamy shadow]

Student loans was more for college tuition. \

[chrome summit]

I would not go student loan route. Get an entry level job and study for the GED.

[gaunt wren]

im a he for future ref

[chrome summit]

Student Loans are fundamentally bad because of the concept of compounding. If anyone understands money, they understand the benefits of compounding interest. However, in student loans, the compounding is doing the opposite of building wealth (unless you were the one that gave the loan!).

[true harness]

at least in the US, the interest is deferred until you've graduated. this offsets most of the issue with the compounding debt

[chrome summit]

but compounds thereafter and especially bad if you only do minimum or keep deferring it like now

[dreamy shadow]

Student loans are not good in this case.

[chrome summit]

I took $0 in student loans personally. I worked full time and went to school full time.

[true harness]

right, but getting a degree will dramatically increase your likelihood of employment and give you access to higher paying jobs. obviously it's not guaranteed you can pay them off, but it's not unreasonably bad

[dreamy shadow]

He doesn't have a high school degree. He needs a GED first.

[chrome summit]

I agree but he has more fundamental issues it seems

[true harness]

yeah i'm just talking about student loans in general

[dreamy shadow]

GED costs $320 USD, which is like 5.8k South African currency. I assume that's a ton of money.

[chrome summit]

I don't like them and try to find cheaper ways of getting to same goal (e.g., community college, CLEP exams, etc...)

[dreamy shadow]

Given how $80 on US minimum wage is a significant amount already.

[gaunt wren]

minwage in sa is $1 per hour

[chrome summit]

Wow same conversion rate as Mexico

[gaunt wren]

this country sucks ass

[true harness]

i wonder if kat has any suggestions?

[dreamy shadow]

wow your right, it is same as Mexico. Wtf Mexico

[true harness]

well the conversion rate itself doesn't really mean anything

[chrome summit]

This is why I love visiting Mexico. Housing is so cheap. It is like $80K USD for a nice house.

[dreamy shadow]

It does if he needs to pay for the GED exams.

[chrome summit]

I survived on $5 USD a day roughly in Mexico for two weeks lol

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, until the cartel takes your land.

[chrome summit]

Those are only in the drug routes. My relatives are no where near there. @dreamy shadow

[gaunt wren]

thx for the advice

[sleek egret]

nominal quantities of a random currency are meaningless without an understanding of exchange rates

[chrome summit]

I agree

[sleek egret]

$320 USD is like 400,000 KRW. But that still wouldn't be considered super expensive in korea (it's a couple days wages).

[smoky quest]

Either go back to school or aim for frontend role and thus acquire the skills and projects to demonstrate your expertise

[smoky quest]

remote jobs pay based on your location, not the location of the company. So you would be paid based on the wages in your country

[gaunt wren]

what frontedn role?

[smoky quest]

https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/frontend-vs-backend-whats-the-difference/

[gaunt wren]

which would you rec

[smoky quest]

which what?

[gaunt wren]

nvm my bad

[smoky quest]

There is only one frontend role?

[gaunt wren]

i wasnt thinking

[high geyser]

i know this is late but holy crap that's funny as hell

smart advertising tho imo.

[sleek egret]

where those real?

[zealous topaz]

https://nostarch.com/manga-guide-13-book-set

apparently it is

[sleek egret]

that's awesome

[pine sleet]

What was the link to that one GitHub page with a list of internships?

[spark cobalt]

Is there a different one other than the top results when you search for internships in GitHub?

[pine sleet]

Hm. Let me try that

Ah, there it is. Nice. Gonna bookmark that

[tight rapids]

Hi all. Just wanted to garner some thoughts from the community from a career perspective. What are some of the routes you all have taken to further your corporate career from a Python perspective? I always find niche use cases to implement Python and it's constantly floated as the tool of the future, yet I can't seem to get other's to buy into it as an ETL tool holistically outside of SAS (Proc SQL). I should also preface I'm a novice in this space so learning is really the key here. Anyone familiar with Python to Snowflake connectivity could be a huge help 🙂 Thanks for your time!

[knotty drum]

all i see is interships for GitHub D:

[pine sleet]

lol, that might be a good idea too

[buoyant seal]

what do they use for ETL? and what is domain type of project?(fintech, or smth else)
and what are their developers most known languages (which are probably already applied across organization as being majority of project languages)

[chrome summit]

We use Dataiku as our main platform. All the data loading is done via scripts within Dataiku and it is pretty flexible to allow you to use Python or SQL as needed.

[buoyant seal]

interesting 🙂

[chrome summit]

Dataiku is an insanely expensive license lol

[buoyant seal]

proprietary stuff is always not very cheap 🙂 we use for observability solution Datadog. It is not super cheap either

[chrome summit]

I am old school. I used to do everything in SSIS.

Combination of windows scripting, python only for file cleansing, and SSIS. CURL for API calls as needed.

[buoyant seal]

Windows? 🤢

[chrome summit]

Yup - SQL server DB

[buoyant seal]

Certainly not acceptable, despite how cool it can be 😁 Actually, it can't be cool by design since it uses Windows

Solution should be cloud friendly, scalable stuff, without overpay for windows licenses
Prefering payment to happen for functionality it offers, not for overhead of its windowses

[chrome summit]

Even in my current shop, SQL Server is still the primary. Dataiku sits on a hadoop cluster and we can write files onto it as needed but the final output is stored on SQL Server and reported via Tableau.

[buoyant seal]

we go with AWS / RDS postgresqs(+some mariadb) databases.

[chrome summit]

A lot of banks going that direction although with Azure 🙂

[buoyant seal]

I will ran away from job that will ask me to deal with windows 😁

[chrome summit]

but it extends AD onto the cloud 😉

[buoyant seal]

why would i need AD?

[chrome summit]

I am kidding (although I may secretly wants you to only use MS products)

[buoyant seal]

😛 it is bad enough we use Github and Vscode. At least both solutions are Linux friendly

[chrome summit]

Discord was almost a MS product!

[buoyant seal]

I secretly think to try one day .Net Core since it became Linux friendly product as well.

[chrome summit]

Hopefully you use Teams at work 😉

[buoyant seal]

we use Slack 🙂

[buoyant seal]

i could you wish you to use Oracle database... but you are already using Windows SQL database... so you aren't having room to fall lower

[tight rapids]

We typically use SAS as our database and Snowflake would be the more sensible ETL tool. It depends. Not sure what fintech is?

[chrome summit]

I like some of the features of Oracle like materialized views and the extending coding functionality it can do

(although I have nightmares dealing with blobs and clobs)...

[buoyant seal]

fintech is just general type of domain dealing with finances. Banking stuff, or even stuff like Stripe all fall into it

[chrome summit]

Fintech is Finance Technology (e.g., crypto firms or more modern niche finance companies using tech to change things)

[buoyant seal]

SAS has many engines of different data platforms inside? which one you use?

[chrome summit]

Lots of banks still use Sybase on some of the legacy apps

[buoyant seal]

We can remember here, that many US banks still run on COBOL 😬

[chrome summit]

DB2 and Sybase was about 80% of my data inputs

Some of the mainframe apps ran on VSAM files as well

A big project at a prior firm was to update the core applications from Assembler to COBOL

[tight rapids]

I genuinely wish I could answer that question but I truthfully do not know 😄

[buoyant seal]

Hi all. Just wanted to garner some thoughts from the community from a career perspective. What are some of the routes you all have taken to further your corporate career from a Python perspective? I always find niche use cases to implement Python and it's constantly floated as the tool of the future, yet I can't seem to get other's to buy into it as an ETL tool holistically outside of SAS (Proc SQL). I should also preface I'm a novice in this space so learning is really the key here. Anyone familiar with Python to Snowflake connectivity could be a huge help 🙂 Thanks for your time!

you know... that can't be answered quickly. It requires investigating throughly what software stuff you have already written in and available human resources.
evaluating how much cost would be for the change to using Python? I think it does not make sense to continue questioning here
basically this question requires scanning your entire IT stuff for answer 😁

[tight rapids]

Yeah...I work for a fortune 500 insurance company so I don't even have the capacity to find these types of things out. No way our company overhauls anything. We are so bad about retiring legacy systems 😄

[chrome summit]

^ uses DB2 probably

[buoyant seal]

Java is used for ETL as well 🙂 i still learn it... but i believe it may have some better perspectives to all the ETL stuff in a long run 😁 Hadoop was built all around Java also for example

Surely there is stuff like Apache Kafka for Python... ergh... but it is so hurting code to be not having static typing 😛
So, how we can advice if python can be better for you, if we don't know what you use already in organization. May be python would be indeed downgrade for you

[chrome summit]

There is a lot of options out there generally speaking for ETL but it is best to see what the org has as the standard and leverage it. Informatica is the more common solution that I've seen.

[tight rapids]

Well my company uses R, Python, Power BI, Proc SQL, SQL Server, Tableau 😄 I guess my overall question was relatively vague when I think about it. I am not on the IT side of things so much as I work in analytics and data manipulation.

[chrome summit]

SQL Server comes with SSIS automatically so that is a very robust option to use

Tableau has an additional license called Tableau Prep which is supposed to do ETL things but it is not great

[tight rapids]

Yeah Tableau is more than likely off the table. My team primarily uses Proc SQL for data transformation which I don't really agree with. I typically migrate to Power BI but I wanted to start finding more use cases for Python within my org. I don't have enough experience working in Python to know it's capabilities in terms of connecting to SAS (if possible). I know it's feasible to connect to Snowflake, I've just never done anything in that manner since stakeholders on my end typically want data visualizations that're easier to stand up in PBI

[chrome summit]

Alteryx is a use case sometimes for things like this where they want business enabled ETL power and be able to easily show the transformations that is not as technical

PS...no idea what PBI means (Power BI?)

[tight rapids]

I've used it, but it won't gain traction in my org. People are very stuck on SAS. PBI = Power BI

[chrome summit]

Tableau > Power BI

[tight rapids]

If they gave me a license sure 🙂

[chrome summit]

I was not a big fan of Power BI. Only good thing about it is MS gives out the licenses for near nothing.

[buoyant seal]

https://documentation.sas.com/doc/en/pgmsascdc/v_036/lepg/n1xvh75k0k9a9mn19cuens67ggj1.htm
a lot of doucmentation to scavenge for evaluating those tools current capabilities and what they support :/
Well, may be you will find person familiar with this park of your proprietary stuff and at the same time knowing other alternatives that can advice you
i certainly can't, because it would require me learning a bit too much to find the answer

[tight rapids]

It's well adopted in my org so people flock to it. It's also free in terms of access and we use microsoft suite products

[buoyant seal]

oh found... hehe, supported languages 🙂

[tight rapids]

I appreciate that 😄

[chrome summit]

yup because MS tosses it into the enterprise EULA

[buoyant seal]

all is left to find what is supported by the rest of your zoo, and getting to understand how much each language is used by you (and what code legacy you already wrote) 😁 in order to find usable languages to your current tech stuff. But so far there is a promise for possible Python usage since it looks like at least supported by your SAS.

[chrome summit]

As always, select MS products for the sake of Darkwind 🙂

(except for Bing - it is really bad)

[buoyant seal]

select Windows/MacOS products for the sake of never Darkwind ever wishing to come to you 😛 if it is Microsoft Linux friendly tool, then it is still tollerable, despite being Microsoft.

[tight rapids]

I just wanted to know if folks had any fully vetted automation techniques working in Python for some of my use cases. I'll definitely keep digging and trying. It's just tough to get corporate experience in this space I'm finding. People don't want to buy into Python and abandon SAS 😄. Also, just to be clear, I don't want anyone's work just to know if it's possible for career advancement!

[buoyant seal]

https://documentation.sas.com/doc/en/pgmsascdc/v_036/caspg3/titlepage.htm as we have already found SAS supports python usage. Question raises, what languages they use now to interact with SAS? 😁 And finding what advantages and disadvantages Python has in comparison to their currently used language, and what requirements are standing currently to code writing

Bring evaluation, how it will benefit (preferably in money amount savings/winnings) to use Python. Then it will be possible to get it approved

[tight rapids]

I will definitely look into this, thank you! I am wondering if the connectivity will be stifled by a firewall but I'll test and let you know. Also, Python is deployed and free to use in my org so that definitely helps. Just need to find out when/if it makes sense to use!

[chrome summit]

Normally, orgs will provide approved Python libraries to use or you can use a suite like Anaconda which has the popular packages already

[true harness]

my application to interview ratio went down. and it's a python internship

[summer roost]

what's it at?

[true harness]

307:4. actually some i tracked i didn't apply to. one second

[summer roost]

is that your interview to application ratio?

[true harness]

yeah. oh did you mean the name of the company, lol

[summer roost]

you said "application to interview ratio", and then said "4:307" - which would be 4 applications to 307 interviews. Very impressive 😄

[true harness]

ah, yes that

[ivory sluice]

cool!

[chrome summit]

I remember my first job - It had 200 applications for 10 roles. I was 1 of the 10 selected.

Only 1 of the 10 is still with that company

[true harness]

hmm. i can't figure out why notion isn't tracking them properly (probably duplicate name fields 🤔 (got nerd sniped trying to make a pivot table lol)), but the correct ratio is 4:301

which means my previous ratio of 1:100 was actually incorrect 😭

wow, the person looked at my linkedin profile. linkedin told me they were looking 😳. wait, they looked 1 hour ago 🤔 which is not a normal US work time

[true harness]

also, they have 11 employees?? kinda interesting

also, i literally applied yesterday to this job 🤔

[dreamy shadow]

Sounds like time to find a new company and double your pay.

[true harness]

they never said they were the 1 👀

[dreamy shadow]

Touché

[delicate bane]

bring back unhinged bing please

[delicate bane]

double your pay, dang. guess it depends on how much you were getting paid before too

[chrome summit]

No. She is doing quite well. She is now quite senior. Should be around 250K+ in a low cost area.

[wet jacinth]

Anyone in post silicon validation?

[proud yacht]

I'm building a chatbot on windows in python (will port later to android). It's a simple progam that outputs text when you imput certain text commands. Writing all the possible responses, like hundreds, if not more, is very time consuming and very boring. Who wants to join with me in this project and help me write those commands and outputs? I will release the app with a subscription access. Part of royalties are also yours, we decide how much on how much you helped. Who's interested, don't hesitate to contact me on Discord or at [e-mail]. I respond on discord in 2 days tops, if not very sooner.

[near ocean]

!rule 6 that looks like an advert

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[white relic]

Uh. Technically, kinda. But I don't work at a big fab or with standard CMOS processes, it's super custom. But I'd guess I have more familiarity with silicon manufacturing than most. Why?

[wet jacinth]

Spent a considerable amount of time in this field and am looking for something similar with a twist. Any ideas?

[white relic]

Where are you based?

[wet jacinth]

I specifically have experience in validation automation. Washington state

6 years of my life doing intels dirty deeds

[white relic]

That experience would probably be useful in what I would call hardware-to-model correlation, if you have some knowledge of electronics or materials

I deal with materials and circuits that are a bit less well understood. (Specifically superconductors) Post CMOS computing is big right now and there is a lot of research in characterizing materials and circuits and matching that to theoretical models

Lot of chips act money floating around out there.
Just a thought

[wet jacinth]

I hadn't considered this before. Thank you for the suggestion. I am going to investigate this further.

[west inlet]

dream on ... never will happen ... i know i might be considered a jurk ... or maybe someone can make a viable proof of concept ... if u are in the know tell som real world experiments that work

... like ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_computing

hey if there is money in it ... just do it

[white relic]

Maybe it will never happen, but that's what I'm being paid to find out 🤷‍♂️ Research isn't about having the answers, it's about finding them.

[heavy pumice]

Hello, which is best place to learn python for free ? I have 2 months time

I want to get a job in coding

[true harness]

!resources i suggest the book 'automate the boring stuff'. though if you have no programming experience, 2 months is a very short time

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[versed mulch]

I've been using https://www.freecodecamp.org/learn/scientific-computing-with-python/ to learn

Pretty solid imo, good explanations

[zealous path]

Depends what job.
I really doubt you’ll get a software engineer type job with that little amount of coding experience.
You can always look for coding adjacent positions like data analyst.

[coral vine]

How do you negotiate salary? I told the interviewer how much I wanted. He asked if it was negotiable and I said yes.

I recently did a technical assessment and I think I might get the job but I also think he might get back to me and lower the salary with the reason being that I didn’t perform that well on technical assessment

It was just a different language and I didn’t know the tool specifics for it. However I believe I did well conceptually since I’ve done those tasks for a language I do know well. He left a voicemail yesterday saying they would send my test results in a few hours. I didn’t get it yet but am planning to give a call back later today.

[sleek egret]

it's good to be proactive

[near remnant]

If a job description has this: "Place of work: London or Remote" what does it mean? Can you decide if you want to go to the office or work from home? Or if you are based in London then you have to work from the office?

[sleek egret]

It means the company has offices in London and that they're flexible with allowing remote work

[near remnant]

Ah nice

[west inlet]

right on ... hope ur ideals dont get shattered on the way 2 that

like there is no more research 2 be done in a meaningful way without interference from the "conflict of interests" ... like we were born 2 late 😄

also love ur attitude ... in this context ... like maybe academic or research integrity ...

[versed mulch]

I spent more time learning and following theory but I struggle to actually do some exercises, I find it hard to make a beginning any advice?

[analog sun]

Time and practice

[versed mulch]

I've finished the Python 4 everyone course on FCC and there are a couple exercises that come with those but I dont know where to start

[vital wyvern]

I'd recommend picking a project on kindling and working through it if you feel you have a decent understanding of the fundamentals.

!kindling

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[versed mulch]

Thank you

[final blaze]

Hi guys, where can I find a job in startup with no real work experience, just with pet projects and 1 year exp of python in web

[sleek egret]

it depends

[sleek egret]

The first question that will come up is if you have a CS or STEM related university degree?

the second will be: what nation do you live in?

[final blaze]

I'm in high school now

[sleek egret]

oh, ok... what do you mean by "startup" then?

are you imagining a few guys hacking something together late at night? because... that's movies, not real life.

[final blaze]

Maybe small project, without salary i want to get exp in building projects with team

[sleek egret]

there are thousands of open source projects that are happy to take code contributions

nearly all have outstanding bugs that you can fix. you don't even really need to ask permission. just fix the bug and submit the fix.

[digital fjord]

consider something like a hackathon, there are often a couple hosted in your local area.

[peak torrent]

@final blaze check dm

[final blaze]

What is dm ?

[pine sleet]

Direct message / private message

[west badger]

If I am gonna be an IT trainee for a company for like a month then would that be considered as an extracurricular activity?

[true harness]

omg I got another interview???

[coral vine]

I think I got a soft reject. They said I didn’t do as well as they thought I would. But I didn’t do bad either. That they put me for consideration. To keep in touch and text and maybe they will open slots in a few weeks :/

It’s also my first interview ever 😮

[true harness]

they emailed and actually said you didn't do well?

[coral vine]

We chatted over the phone

[buoyant seal]

Even if u grow in rank and experience, u still get rejected for some reason or another one.
Get comfortable with it 🙂 rejections happen to everyone. Only pretty much conversion rate matters

After few dozens interviews u will probably stop caring about specific rejections too

[coral vine]

There was a phone interview, a technical assessment interview, then today was the test result call, and that’s what they said

[random imp]

Hi, would need some input to help me decide. Today I’m working at a big consulting IT company as a Solution Architect, mostly working with Atlassian products (analyzing, implementation, maintenance, upgrades, migrations and so on). I have gotten a job offer as a data engineer, which lays somewhat in my interest (Python and SQL). I have lately gotten more interested in infrastructure and stuff like docker & kubernetes with some automation which I hope to apply in my daily work, even though it’s difficult due to old grumpy people not liking “new” technologies.

Going the data engineer route, will that deviate and put me in a smaller frame of working scope. Is it good to have data engineer on your resume? Ofc it depends on what you do with it… but I’m pretty new in IT and unsure if it’s a bad or good move for me.

[coral vine]

Thank you. Coming out of school and only knowing of minimum wage jobs… this is so different for me :/

School never asked questions with that much technical depth and min wage jobs never have so many stages

[buoyant seal]

Wait a second, u was controlling path to solution direction without experience in all(tech behind it) of it?

[true harness]

that just comes with the territory. higher pay -> need to make sure someone is actually worth it

[true harness]

it's kind of strange they actually told you how well you did. what country is this?

[random imp]

Well, I have some experience 😅. But yeah, started as Junior.

[coral vine]

US

[chrome summit]

That is very rare. For them to tell you means you are not out.

[coral vine]

The interviewers were both extremely nice comforting people

[dreamy shadow]

Those are the worst imo, you can't easily tell if you screwed up or not answering a question.

[chrome summit]

Normally companies will either just keep interviewing, delay the process, or send generic rejection

[random imp]

I have been working in “tech” all career but in different roles.. such as project manager and so on. But wanted to solve the problems by myself.

[coral vine]

My first interviewer was for a coaching platform but it was for people who already have jobs that want to get into a higher tier company. They have limited spaces. I didn’t get into that program but I was waitlisted.

Tbh, I got super sad about both soft rejects.

[buoyant seal]

You know, 😏 tech engineers value input of experienced engineer as their leader far more than of person not knowing about their tech at all.

Sounds to be like Data engineering with approach to backend and infrastructure an opportunity for you to learn about what you were commanding about 🙂

[chrome summit]

Even if delayed, it is not a bad thing sometimes. One very large consulting firm took over a month to send me an offer once (which I rejected after all that time)

[random imp]

Yeah, the thing as a solution architect I get lots of infrastructure stuff as well, but it’s soooo hard to get things done in a more modern way with this team that I’m in… gonna read up some more on the data engineer stuff.. feels like it can contain bits and bops of what I like.

[winged coyote]

hey guys assuming my resume is completely blank any tips on how to land a decent paying job? I'm an undergrad btw

[spark cobalt]

😤😤 too ez

[true harness]

well you need a resume first. unless you mean you have no skills, which i doubt considering you're an undergrad, so make a resume first and see where you need to improve

[spark cobalt]

Good stuff

[buoyant seal]

Not even finished CS degree in it?

[random imp]

Do some projects or help out on some open source repo’s that you can show. Or getting some certificates maybe.

[true harness]

and that other company called me back 😤 😎 so i'll have 3 interviews. feeling like dos rn

[winged coyote]

I'm going to graduate with CSE degree in like 5 months

[chrome summit]

when do you grad? what degree? current gpa? clubs?

[spark cobalt]

Good stuff man. Killing it already as a freshman

[chrome summit]

Any internships yet?

[buoyant seal]

May be u can choose already specialization you like, and tailoring your experience, pet projexcts and self education towards it (may be even internship)

[true harness]

what country are you in?

[winged coyote]

it's a teir 3 private uni Btech CSE 7 gpa no clubs india*

[coral vine]

True. I spoke with a friend today and he said his company didn’t want him but they got back to him after 6 months because they couldn’t find the person they wanted. He’s been working there for so many years already and got promoted and conducts interviews now. Crazy how things can turn out.

[spark cobalt]

Interviews. Though I'd argue for high volume of applicants, getting past the resume stage is harder, which (wtf do I call him, the Java cat guy) is breezing through

@true harness What do people call you

[winged coyote]

I've done some internships but I can't seem to land any interviews at all

[chrome summit]

I would focus on GPA, personal development projects, and some type of active university involvement that shows leadership as a starting point. Include the internships too. Surprised no offers from them.

[true harness]

a lot of people just say psvm

[spark cobalt]

Okay bet

What does the m stand for though

[dreamy shadow]

main

[random imp]

Any thoughts why?

[buoyant seal]

Start with simple tech first 🙂 and climb your road up.
Actually making roadmap of what u learn can be a good idea

A lot of basic stuff needs to be surely covered first before going to advanced stuff

[spark cobalt]

Oh right

[winged coyote]

it's prolly cuz of me not having projects and my teir 3 college

[dreamy shadow]

Every time I read public static void, the main adds itself

[spark cobalt]

What does your resume look like? You can share an anonymized version for review

[true harness]

ngl, the only thing i really changed on my resume was adding a project i did at a hackathon 🤔, so maybe employers actually like those 🤔. 👏 demonstrates 👏 teamwork i guess

[winged coyote]

oki brb

[spark cobalt]

So slow today for work. But afternoon gonna be exciting. Meeting back to back to back from 2-5 and a meeting at 9 PM

[buoyant seal]

Wait, is your nickname inspired by Java 😍 ?

[dreamy shadow]

Wait 9pm?

[random imp]

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I’ll check some roadmaps and scribble down skills to learn.. this role that they have in mind for me is more backend oriented also, so it does sound like a fit when I think of it. I also agree with your previous comment on how tech engineers don’t like PM and others not knowing what they talk about 😅.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah, Syncup with India team

[dreamy shadow]

bruh

[true harness]

how did you not notice lol

[buoyant seal]

Career channel turned to another Python general channel 😉

[spark cobalt]

I'm the only dev for one of the products, I get all the complaints lol

Rather get it straight from the reporter rather than have it pass through like 5 middlemen

[random imp]

Do you have any ideas for projects? Anything around your interests (gaming, books, movies and so on) that you can create a project on?

[dreamy shadow]

Can't they do it in the morning?

Anything past 6pm is "no thanks". Even past 5pm is on, time to look at job posting zone.

[spark cobalt]

It'd be like 7 AM morning for them

[winged coyote]

I'm reeallllly bad with creativity if I'm being honest and the only py programming I've done is on colab so yuh I'm really bad

[spark cobalt]

And it would be 5:30 PM for us

[spark cobalt]

Oh it's all optional lol, in fact my managers telling me I don't ever have to go

[buoyant seal]

If u will run out of ideas what to learn as theoretical side of being backend guy, here a list for that
#web-development message

#web-development message

For more practical tech side, good idea to start learning how to build some Rest API, and starting learning SQL (with manga guide to Databases for example)

For infra stuff learning book Docker Deep Dive as a start after getting comfortable with Linux 🙂

[spark cobalt]

Also told me if I wanted to skip some other meetings I'm free to do so

[dreamy shadow]

Generally off shore team pays the price in time zone differences.

[spark cobalt]

This just saves me time

[spark cobalt]

It's 2 of us and like 15 of them.

[near remnant]

what's up with job postings being online for more than 2 years on a career website? they just forgot or what lmao

[dreamy shadow]

Eh, if they are within the company, not much you can do. However, if they are a contracted company, the one who pays the bills has the power. edit: ENGLISH

[spark cobalt]

Within the company yeah.

[random imp]

Will check it out. Yeah, maybe I’ll look in to building a rest api. Right now I have a project analyzing stock data and doing price analysis. Doing it with flask, Gunicorn, pandas, sqlalchemy, plotly and so on. But it’s not really a Rest API for anyone to use… might do something with Fast API could fit? I’m quite confident with SQL. Will check out the links! Thanks a ton 🫡

[true harness]

Where are you in your search process? Are you considering any other opportunities at this time? Do you have any offers on the table we should be aware of?
i'm supposed to answer this truthfully right

[spark cobalt]

It's caused problems before where I get requirements that are different to the root problem. Saves time to just meet at 9 Pm

[buoyant seal]

Flask can build rest apis too 🙂 FastAPI is just more tuned for that

[true harness]

Upon graduation, what is your desired future role:
and is this question like, "right after you graduate, what job do you want" or like, "what job do you eventually want", or is it like, "what job do you want at this company after you graduate and we offer you a role"

[inner wren]

Hey @winged coyote!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[dreamy shadow]

If you have other offers or interviews, you want to bring them up. But don't lie about non-existing offers. (They might ask for a copy of the offer letter, w/ or w/o redacted info )

[random imp]

Yeah, but figured maybe I wanna expand my toolbox and fiddle around a bit with FastAPI 😅. Saved your links, Ty!

[spark cobalt]

Basically what's your interests.

Like are you interested in embedded, game dev, etc.

[true harness]

on my way to doctor offer letters for a higher salary

[dreamy shadow]

If your just graduating, it's a measure of seeing where they can try to fit you in.

[spark cobalt]

It's assumed you want some job that deals with some programming, mostly just what specifically you wanna do

[winged coyote]

here's my resume

[true harness]

i don't know yet 😭 that's what the internship is for 😭

[spark cobalt]

For example, if you say you are interested in UI development, they'll put you on UI team to get a taste of it

[dreamy shadow]

not fraud if you don't get caught

[winged coyote]

[spark cobalt]

Try one thing out, then if it doesn't work, try something else out.

[dreamy shadow]

Well, any particular fields you are interested in?

Or, what fields you know you don't want to do. That might be a better starting point.

[true harness]

not really. i like everything tbh, except AI and frontend ( 🤮 )

[dreamy shadow]

Then you can put backend, etc.

[vital wyvern]

I think you could benefit a bit from restructuring this and adding the impact statements of each of your work experience points.

[spark cobalt]

Process of elimination

[vital wyvern]

I think 'interests' is a waste of space on resumes personally. It can help start a conversation once you get a foot in the door, but you can normally organically come across those subjects anyway.

Your summary statement needs work too. 'Looked up to by peers and loved by seniors.' sounds... weird.

[winged coyote]

ow oki also no offence but ur name ticks me in ways I can't explain

[true harness]

i honestly don't think interests are useful at all for a resume. why not start conversation with a cool project, or a cool award

[dreamy shadow]

If your in the US, applying for US based jobs, remove interests and language.

[winged coyote]

yuh this wasn't me it was some "expert"

[vital wyvern]

I add languages into skills when I apply to jobs that either directly state or reasonably might have a dual language requirement.

[dreamy shadow]

Also, talk more about your major/minor projects? What was the impact of your owrk.

[vital wyvern]

See directly above lol

[spark cobalt]

Underrated

[dreamy shadow]

It'll more likely count against you.

[vital wyvern]

I... don't believe that.

[true harness]

why? @dreamy shadow

[winged coyote]

ight I'll look into it thanks for all the help guys. yall restored some hope in me

[dreamy shadow]

long story short: Racism. If it's not a requirement as part of the original job posting, it can paint you as an possible ESL.

[spark cobalt]

I see that if a foreign language is the only language they know. But otherwise not really.

[dreamy shadow]

Same reason why having a english sounding name on the same resume brings in more interviews.

[spark cobalt]

Fight racism with racism

[random imp]

@winged coyote do you have a repo that you can link to? I guess not based on your previous comments… any recommendations or quotes on the work you’ve done in school?

[vital wyvern]

I disagree entirely, and I think that's an overly cynical take. Numerous roles, both in the tech field and external, will pay additional money for more language competency. If you want to make the argument that it doesn't belong on a resume with no actual requirement for that language, I don't disagree that it might be seen as superfluous. But simply speaking another language opens a fair few doors in the job market.

[spark cobalt]

School projects are definitely worth putting on if you have nothing else

98% of my company speak at least 2 languages

[winged coyote]

I'm gonna be real I've got no work except the online tutorials I did and covid really caught me slacking. Also from repo you prolly mean github which I don't have since I've never had a use for it. Ik it sounds stupid but I simply never had to use it ;-;

[vital wyvern]

Your internships would imply that you can reasonably generate some sort of project of interest and github would make a logical hosting solution for that.

[winged coyote]

yes it indeed does but I don't have any ;-;

[random imp]

Ok, if I was hiring, I would actually like to know what you have done and what you’ve learned. A repo is a good way of showing anything… even if it’s simple projects. Heck I put up some super simple projects on GitHub.

[dreamy shadow]

Maybe in an ideal world. (https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews)
If the job posting is looking for the language, then sure it'll add additional money.

[winged coyote]

oh oki also any github tutorials or how to use resources that you can suggest?

[random imp]

There’s probably plenty around. But since we are talking about applying for jobs, I’d say just use it to showcase your work/code. Maybe you can do an ML project on archery and put up there since that was an interest of yours?

Doing projects based on your interest are way more fun also.

[winged coyote]

ml project on archery? I- don't understand how

[random imp]

Neither do I 😂. How about creating a small game or something that learns how to shoot the arrow in bulls-eye?

You can probably think of something

[winged coyote]

okioki I'll try to dig around it a bit again thanks a lot for the help

[dreamy shadow]

Nothing really surprising there. Take any company website, go look at their "We care" section. 99% of that is just PR bs.

[winged coyote]

[true harness]

that's the problem with unconscious bias, it's unconscious

[dreamy shadow]

Or "Data-driven company" or "We use AI"

[random imp]

Agile data driven company and branch leading in AI.

[dreamy shadow]

=> The lone data scientist they hired with no support

[random imp]

Haha

It’s like working in consulting, you mention that you know some Python, now you’re the Python expert in the next client meeting.

[tender venture]

^ Mention you know Python and now you are also the IT person

[true harness]

the solution is just to have no friends and family 👍

[true harness]

you need to increase the detail on your two internships. the fact you have 2 is great, but right now they don't really say much about what you did and your impact

[dreamy shadow]

I had a boss who said they traded currencies with an algorithm they developed. When the Ukraine war hit, I really resisted the urge to ask how their trading was going.

[coral vine]

You’re a wizard, harry

[random imp]

@winged coyote also, if possible see if you can get a recommendation to put in your resume from the internship.

[smoky quest]

It's a bit more complicated than that.
While I am sure it can happen, that does not account for the part where the pro-diversity company does track these types of statistics and will definitely notice some teams are more biased than diverse. Which in turns will trigger some interesting conversations.

[true harness]

but that doesn't help your application specifically. you've already been denied at that point

[smoky quest]

that's how statistics work

[tender venture]

POV- You have a pretty basic data analyst job that you're somewhat overqualified for. It's pretty good security (decent pay, good 401k, etc) and you've automated roughly 50% of tasks. Would you A. Look for another job to advance your skills, or B. Just chill and keep the easy job.

[dreamy shadow]

C. Get a 2nd job along with the first and freeze your TheWorkingNumber

[vapid jay]

Hey

[west badger]

If I am gonna be an IT trainee for a company for like a month then would that be considered as an extracurricular activity?

[west inlet]

hmm why is that?

[true harness]

are you being paid? either way, probably not

[west badger]

Yes

[vapid jay]

are you doing well ?

[spark cobalt]

If you're a god at programming, companies might deny you under the assumption you'll ask for compensation they can't/aren't willing to pay

[west badger]

Yes I guess

[spark cobalt]

And won't even grant you an interview

[west badger]

Some people said it is

[west inlet]

hmm ... maybe this will ring a bell:

[vital wyvern]

C.) Advance skills on your own time while enjoying the job security provided by your current gig, start branching out into learning other data viz/processing software and solutions.

[west inlet]

npr.org /2020/10/20/925895717/antitrust-lawsuits-google-2020-vs-microsoft-1998

[buoyant seal]

there are always reasons to be not meeting expectations.
Not enough relevant experience in their tech stuff, not meeting some certain over strict company policy regarding attitude to smth
or some very super over specific another criteria.

Interviews are scheduled quite blindingly in a spam way

[buoyant seal]

And besides that, you can be from not wishing to join them as well, finding out they have very overwork
not paying enough
very legacy crappy stuff
and etc
you have your own list of questionaries to company as well. I for that matter refuse to work in web scrapping and... NFT projects
plus i also refuse to work in companies not embracing unit testing as minimal code quality
Also i refuse to work in companies which don't use Git for version control of code

[west inlet]

hmm ... like not woke nuff 4 pr dep?

[vital wyvern]

You were warned for being an edgelord in OT, don't bring that shit here.

[west inlet]

web scrapping and... NFT projects ... is not work imo

ok ban me

what is a edgelord?

[buoyant seal]

it is a dirty money, but some people earn money from it. I don't want to be among such people though

[west inlet]

what is the fist rule?

[dreamy shadow]

Web scraping is legal. And if I had to guess, is used by lots of the fortune 500/FAANG companies.

[west inlet]

python.org /vpsfv/ conduct/

[dreamy shadow]

And robots.txt is more so of an ask. "please don't access X,Y, z"

[buoyant seal]

it depends on context. in some cases it is legal, in some not. For example famous project "Youtube Vanced" already received from google lawyers, cease and desist for parsing google and showing content with their own ads.
In many cases it is at least unethical even if legal

Often enough... it works until you become big enough, get noticed, start monetizing, and they you have lawyers at your door 🙂
Best to have lawyer on a standby for all of it

[dreamy shadow]

Capitalism runs on unethical. So that point is moot. And, cease & desist is also just a legal threat of litigation.

[west inlet]

... as legals goes of scraping ... u only do it in the public domain ... and even there u can get in trouble ... ask this guy : wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz

[buoyant seal]

join any content creator group and start offering for free results of your pet projects, which use parsing of their content to work...
...if you made your project without permission of content owners, high chances you are breaking their copyright stuff and will get in trouble. Amount of trouble again depends on your popularity and monetinizing. Seen with first eyes experience.

And stop arguing already if it is legal or not. Are you lawyer to say it is always legal? Can you be sure that in all countries it is legal?
You need to be very experienced lawyer to say for sure it is legal everywhere, for all situations and countries.

[dreamy shadow]

We're talking mainly about the US https://techcrunch.com/2022/04/18/web-scraping-legal-court/ Copy right & distributing scraped entities/copy right materials is an entirely different topic.

[west inlet]

"Also i refuse to work in companies which don't use Git for version control of code " why?

[white relic]

can we take the legality of scraping and other off-topic arguments to a different channel, please?

[dreamy shadow]

Yea sure.

[buoyant seal]

this is... very basic requirement for code collaboration between software developers. Using Git is like minimal industrial standard... which ensures that developers will be able to submit their work in a way not blocking development to each other.
Also Git is essentially... an important technology for a proper Test Driven Development, as you need often saving your work with it, to ensure you have save points to restore.
And it integrates with CI technologies like Github Actions, Gitlab CI, ensuring to run linting/testing on every commit of a saved work automatically, to ensure that never broken code is deployed to prod. And work is always very fast integrated between developers.

TLDR: it is about develpoment speed and comfort. Without it... you can't be developing fast and in comfort. You would be dealing with troubles you never should have dealt with it.

Git is just a basic technology to start with GitOps and infrastructure as a code in addition. Which is kind of quite important for me due to one of my specializations

[true harness]

Using Git is like minimal industrial standard
eh. using VCS, sure. git specifically? eh

[dreamy shadow]

Only in tech companies lol

[west inlet]

ohh is about an internal git not github?

[dreamy shadow]

VCS being some teams folder for some traditional companies.

[buoyant seal]

i talked about regular Git (with having in mind that i will be able to interact with it through Git CLI)
What they use for Git provider, i don't care as long as i will be able to have CI CD automated build,test,deployment stuff configured to their git provider

my main company uses Self hosted Gitlab stuff for git repositories and etc, fine to me.

[west inlet]

hmm in what vm u work?

[buoyant seal]

vm?

[west inlet]

virtual machine ...

[buoyant seal]

i don't use virtual machines, i develop straight from Linux Desktop (Kubuntu 20.04-22.04 LTS)
instead of using Virtual Machines, i usually run Docker containers in Docker-compose for my dev env

[west inlet]

what python?

[zealous path]

…
The latest stable version?

[buoyant seal]

from 3.8 to 3.11 Cpython, depending on how much current project got outdated and still was not updated yet?

[west inlet]

ohh

[vapid jay]

whats a good python side hustle.

[zealous path]

Also need to take into account Python version compatibility with legacy code

[buoyant seal]

i have for VMs, like Virtual Machine Manager running on Qemu, and even Vagrant (Virtual machines as a code like Docker almost) though. But never really found the need to use them since learned docker :/
eyeing to try developng one day in a local kubernetes instead of docker-compose. There are few technologies allowing to have it with comfort and already having that way in mind.
But so far fully satisfied by Docker-compose for dev env.

[west inlet]

... hmm im 2 old and tiered 2 explain my point ... and i got som warnings ... u will get it eventually or maybe i will another day ...

the basic point is u dont own ur code if u dont read the agreement ...

[true harness]

you probably don't own your code even if you read the agreement. that's what it's for

[west inlet]

hmm ... true that ... example ... {}aside from eating a bug fro the foot https://youtu.be/I25UeVXrEHQ

[sleek egret]

lol, that's a classic vido

[west inlet]

is it ? ... did u see the bug tat was talking about ... it is feature now

[past mist]

What websites do you guys recommend for getting a valuable software certificate?

[buoyant seal]

AWS for getting AWS Certificate 🙂

[near ocean]

Any university admissions website

[past mist]

nice, but I've already graduated

[near ocean]

You should have all the certificates you need then

[past mist]

But I want more

[near ocean]

More wont help you with anything

[buoyant seal]

as far as i know some certificates besides uni diplom, have value only in infrastructure stuff.
AWS certificate from AWS that you know it, like AWS solution smth. Or Kubernetes knowing certificate from Kubernetes official organization

[past mist]

It's VERY VERY difficult to get into a graduate position nowadays so I think it might help

[true harness]

certificates aren't really the way to do that. projects are better ways to demonstrate skill

[past mist]

What is the way?

[past mist]

Any recommendations besides certificates?

[spark cobalt]

Projects, like he said.

[true harness]

are you trolling

[past mist]

Fair enough

[buoyant seal]

because u already received answer, that cerificates do not hold value. Projects are better way, getting university diplom is better way.
(Except there is some value in infrastructure stuff certs, like AWS cert)

[near ocean]

Lets keep trolling to a minimum please, offtopics also exist

[dreamy shadow]

AWS certs are the only ones I would recommend (then again, as mentioned prior, only really valuable in infrastructure roles). Rest are noise. (Pretty sure trolling isn't allowed in any channel)

[west inlet]

hmm ...

www.statista.com / statistics / 422273 / yoy-quarterly-growth-aws-revenues

[dreamy shadow]

Is there a point?

[thorny oriole]

is majoring in computer science a good start for a career?

[west inlet]

yes ... rtfm ... aws.amazon.com/agreement/

[true harness]

that is not a point. (it also triggers a mod ping, iirc)

[ivory sluice]

please make your point

[west inlet]

meh ... is career discussion ... ask a old programmer u trust

[ivory sluice]

it's a discussion channel revolving around careers

[ivory sluice]

i'd say that's a great start. are you currently deciding on declaring a major?

[thorny oriole]

definitely! I've been learning python and other languages for months and I've decided to go to college for 4 years to study computer science and see if I can get a job somewhere from there, so I wanted to figure out if it makes sense or not

[west inlet]

computer science do not exist ... computation science maybe ...

[true harness]

computer science can easily be found on wikipedia

[thorny oriole]

yeah I just found it on google

[white relic]

Having a bachelor's degree in computer science is a very good start at a wide variety of programming-related careers.

[still rock]

hi void

[west inlet]

also definition of science ... computer dont qualify ...

it is not semantics ...

[near ocean]

You're going to have start explaining your opinions, we have no idea what that means

[west inlet]

latez ... if i dont get banned ... and u can make ur own mind of that

[white relic]

I assume this is the "computer science is a misnomer" argument
which has some merit, but isn't really relevant to whether getting a degree in it is good for jobs (it is)

[ivory sluice]

that's awesome. so if you're in middle school/high school the way you can prepare is by keeping your grades up, making projects that interest you, research colleges and their programs once you're in high school. big schools will often have separate engineering schools within them that have compsci tracks, and admission requirements might differ from their school dedicated to humanities

• this is all US-based advice

[west inlet]

rtfm ... like this guy wolframscience.com ... and is debatable that qualifies as science

[ivory sluice]

if you're telling us to rtfm can you please stop and read our #code-of-conduct

[west inlet]

... and career is wrong title 😄 ... is job discussion