career-advice

[true harness]

sounds ok

[west badger]

Alright thanks all of you!!Imma head off now

I might get people for the club from here too@true harness

[true harness]

well you'll get banned for advertising so probably not that

[west badger]

Uhh I won't get warned first?@true harness

[true harness]

probably

[west badger]

Alright will see

[pine sleet]

No worries. For the record, I did get a 1510/1600 without the book so I did try pretty hard 🙂

And like GG mentioned it won't "decide" your career

It's a pretty minor factor in the grand scheme of things

[true harness]

on the other hand, i had 2 study books which were all i used. i think it's fair to say they can be useful

[urban thorn]

hello. i don't want to annoy anyone repeating this question as much as i want to get some advice about it

<@&831776746206265384> is that allowed?

[true harness]

do you have any idea what the job requirements are? there likely isn't much you can learn or cram in just a few days

[urban thorn]

I think I do, all the reqs were listed in the vacancy description. Lemme review it, brb in a minute

[true harness]

that would be the first place to look for technical things. additionally you want to practice non technical questions

[urban thorn]

The call with the recruiter happened after I had passed the ATS and completed the test task (the basic "difficulty" and all of the "would be a plus to..."), so I know about the vacancy, about the company, this kind of stuff. What I wish I knew is what could I do to maximize my candidacy after they're done with all 11 of us on the dev interview

[true harness]

is that an ad lol

[analog sun]

Hello, your message has been removed because it seems to violate rules 9 and 6. If you feel this is a mistake, please send a DM to @severe widget .

[sleek egret]

you can improve your chances by being memorable (in a positive way) and forming genuine personal connections with the people making the decision

[last sinew]

Make sure you've done your research on the company, the role, and the industry. This includes understanding the company's values, mission, and any recent news or projects they've worked on. This will help you answer questions more confidently and give you a better idea of what the company is looking for in a candidate.

[urban thorn]

I had such chance before getting my hands on the test task: I was going to send a list of questions to the task, but the more I was reading its details the more questions were appearing in my head, and in the end I refused this idea because I had thought that 20 questions to writing a class which represents basic kettle functions would be too much. I still think this attitude would make me stand out, but it's too late. Now I only have the recruiter to contact with, and I think asking her about the company in more detail would be a good move in this direction

[sleek egret]

I was talking about during the interview

[urban thorn]

Oh. Is it even gonna be possible then? From what I understood, it will be an interview with one (or maybe more) of their developers (I didn't get if it'll be the tech lead or just someone they'd ask to interview the candidates), maybe some other people who would be asking more about soft than hard things. And if I'm right, and it'll be 1-to-1 with a dev — I have quite tight idea on how to be memorable

[sleek egret]

the soft things is where you stand out and make personal connections

[urban thorn]

Got it now, thanks

[urban thorn]

Good lord, I just opened their youtube channel, and it's like 1-hour+ vids. Judging from the titles, I'm not quite sure what's about what, so I think I'll start from the website

[delicate bane]

@dreamy shadow from mikiko b.

isnt this accurate though?

i think specializing as a DS is the way forward tbh

[buoyant seal]

Approved 😊

We need all Devs Pokémon tree of evolutions

[dreamy shadow]

I leave to grab some lunch & my boss pings me during this time about some project. I ping them back 15 mins later.
My boss:
Been an hour and still away status...

[dreamy shadow]

Be one with the Linkedin poser

[delicate bane]

you are going to get emotes banned in this channel

[delicate bane]

ooo DW you want to start one? eevee could be junior engineer in this case?

[dreamy shadow]

I need to make a phone call too, but I KNOW the moment I do, my boss is going to ping me back and want to chat.

[brittle thorn]

Someone might yeet a pokeball lmao

[solar heart]

explain further lol

i currently work a dead end minimum wage cleaning job and would like to get into programming, throw ideas at me for the easiest to learn with future potentiallol

[paper turret]

Are there any good resources you guys would recommend for cv/resume writing?

[near ocean]

self learning and !resources from this server
you'd have to understand that no degree means things will be much harder for you to break into
web dev is probably the most accessible one, i would also recommend checking out The Odin Project

[buoyant seal]

i don't have enough knowledge for this (and may be no one in the world does 😆 )

[true harness]

look up templates on the internet and copy them. google has a good thing about bullet points. furthermore, you can send your resume here for review

[buoyant seal]

https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs this guy has the most sickest resume

[hot pilot]

Hi guys! How are you? I start learning Python. I would love to be paid developer but that's not my priority. I have one question. To be hired. How mandatory is to own a college degree?

[delicate bane]

what mariosis said

[delicate bane]

could start. then iterate over time?

[true harness]

it depends on location, however it's fair to assume that it is pretty much required

[peak halo]

if you just started learning Python, you're still a long way away from having enough experience that someone will want to pay you instead of doing whatever it is themselves. If you're a young person, you should strongly consider getting a degree.

[buoyant seal]

there is no way i will be able to learn all necessary stuff in my lifetime to understand how all dev specializations are connected with each other

[chrome summit]

Fields like Finance will require degrees unless you are a veteran in the field but 98%+ will have one

[delicate bane]

ehh it doesnt need to be perfect. just enough to replace eevee with junior engineer than add what you think are the most common branches/splits

then someone here can be like "you forgot about XYZ" lol

[buoyant seal]

i accept only perfections or only sub perfect solutions. This solution would not be possible to make even mediocre 🙂

[buoyant seal]

exactly for this reason of perfection i learned Golang, and planning to learn Java next.
I want the most long living cleanest solutions ( at least as my pet projects ), clean architectured, easy to refactor, easy to add new features, static typed, well tested, easy to read code and understand all developers intentions and domain processes

[delicate bane]

wow youre like my friend -- they are also learning golang. they started with java at first.

[buoyant seal]

Golang answers confidently yes to both questions 🙂

Java... is fast once its JVM is booted 😁 (waiting a minute for all my minecrafts mods to load)

[peak halo]

does each mod run on a separate JVM?

[buoyant seal]

i think they are all using one (not really knowing Java yet to answer that confidently)
At least we launch them all in one java launch command

I only finished golang learning to satisfying enough level and proceeding to start learning Java

[hot pilot]

My life had too much obstacles. I had change 3 paths until now at my 31. I live in Greece there is no school for coding as I know. Only option is too go at Computer science university. It's 4 years if you can pass the math and exams. I like coding. But I don't know how far I can go. Until now after almost a month I still feel very nice and committed to learn. I know that it's not too much time but I'm into technology Pc's and mobiles many years.

[peak halo]

I don't know enough about the job market in Greece to comment. 🇬🇷

[paper turret]

Thanks both to you and darkwind. If I want someone to take a look is it just a 'post in the channel and ask nicely' or is there a better way of doing it?

[buoyant seal]

Dropping resumes is welcome here (first goal of channel xD) (especially if anonimized)

[true harness]

say something like, "pls review 🥺 👉 🤛" then attach a screenshot

[paper turret]

Thanks both 🙂

[buoyant seal]

Please, better link to pdf 🙂
Say no to screenshots 😛

[true harness]

link to pdf is a security risk. i thought you'd know better 😛

[hot pilot]

If I become good enough so I can do it as job, I will not work in Greece. Payment it's not even half as other European countries like Spain, Germany, Denmark etc. A friend of mine takes almost 6000€ in Denmark and here they give him 1600€. As country we are many many years behind when it comes to technology...

[buoyant seal]

How so? 😛 screenshots are parsed, everything is not an obstacle. It is just annoying to review code/text in pictures

[true harness]

uh, because you could download something, etc, whatever. screenshots don't

[buoyant seal]

Download like virus? 😛

I use Linux, i fear no Windows stuff.

[true harness]

🤔

[frank verge]

Don't forget to run everything as sudo

[buoyant seal]

curl URL | sudo bash 😅

[frank verge]

better to do sudo bash <(curl URL) so you still get to use stdin

[dreamy shadow]

Do I calculate 401k benefits into Total Comp? (401k % match & base company contribution) in addition to bonus + base?

[true harness]

yeah

[urban thorn]

the fact that I couldn't process this as something that makes sense scares me

[deft herald]

I wouldn't. It's not money that you would be able to use until you're 65

I don't think sites like glassdoor and levels.fyi consider that a part of TC either

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, looks like that is the case.
I'll guess I"ll just have to note it somewhere else.

[deft herald]

Out of curiosity, how much is the match?

[dreamy shadow]

Fixed company contribution @ 4% of base per pay period + Company match is "maximizing by contribute at least 6% of base"
(Thank god I wrote this earlier in this channel)

Digging through our thousand page benefits handbook is

[deft herald]

Ok so you get a guaranteed 4% + a match up to 6% of your contribution

that's not bad - i like the guaranteed 4% part

[chrome summit]

That is good - most companies only do 6% match

main question is how long vesting requirement is and when match starts

[dreamy shadow]

It's after 1 calendar year of service, You do need to contribute min 6% of base pay for the 4% contribution.

[deft herald]

I've had a couple different models. One would match 50% of your contribution up to 10% of your salary. My current one does 100% for the first $1500, 50% for the next $1500, then like 30% for the rest up to a certain amount. I don't remember exactly

[deft herald]

Oh, that's not what i read earlier

[chrome summit]

ohh it is not 6% match plus 4%?

[delicate bane]

el oh el dead 💀

[delicate bane]

the 6% comes from the max irs contribution or something

[delicate bane]

someone please clarify my tired afternoon brain vomit

[dreamy shadow]

Crap, now I'm confused

[chrome summit]

It works a little different. IRS maximum is inflation adjusted. Currently max is $22.5K but the company can contribute additional money beyond that. Normally, companies will do a full match for up to 6%. Some companies will also add additional funds beyond that.

[deft herald]

IRS max contribution to 401k is $22,500 for 2023

[delicate bane]

thank you good sir

[dreamy shadow]

mf can't put these 401k contributions in plain english.

[deft herald]

You want to share the actual language in your benefits handbook?

[chrome summit]

but company can add more than the individual can add (i.e., the company match does not count towards the 22.5K)

[deft herald]

right. So it doesn't make sense for their match to be limited by irs

[chrome summit]

exactly (although there is a max also for the company but HIGHLY uncommon for employers to do that)

[dreamy shadow]

OK. Reading directly from my handbook:
Company Matching Contributions: After 1 year of vesting service, company contributes each pay period of 50% on the first 6% of base pay that you contribute to the plan in a pay period. (You can maximize the amt of company match received by contributing at least 6% of your base pay to your account.)
Fixed Company Contributions: After 1 year of vesting service, company contributes a fixed contribution equal to 4% of your base pay for each pay period.

[chrome summit]

59.5 years of age or above and required distributions at 70.5 (RMDs)

[deft herald]

eh, whatever

[chrome summit]

so you put in 6% and company adds 3%. Company contributions vest at 1 year and then they also add 4% on top of that.

[dreamy shadow]

More or less yea

[deft herald]

Ok you were right before. Guaranteed 4% contribution, then an extra 3% as long as you put in at least 6

[chrome summit]

Sorry I am picky on rules - I am a CPA

[dreamy shadow]

I've been maxing my 401k since I started so it's all the same to me at this point.

[deft herald]

you wanna do my taxes for me? 😄

[chrome summit]

nah - I only do my own LOL

The 401K they offer is avg I would say

[deft herald]

Ok this is what my company officially does:

your employer matches 100% of the first $1,500 of your contributions, 50% of the next $1,500, 33% of the next $7,500 and 10% of any remaining contributions, up to applicable limits.

Kind of a weird model but the only way to max it out is if you hit yuor IRS max

[dreamy shadow]

That wording makes me want to just

[chrome summit]

To me, company contribution of 6-8% range is avg. Anything above that is better.

[dreamy shadow]

Coming from my last company that didn't match squat...

[chrome summit]

Way below average then - probably small to mid size firm

[dreamy shadow]

Startup

[chrome summit]

Startup goal is stock options so not really the same

[dreamy shadow]

You get pretend tokens stocks though!

[delicate bane]

that wording is

[deft herald]

The wording is fine, it's just the formula that makes you break out the calculator

[delicate bane]

exactly

[deft herald]

I do wish they'd just say "fixed X% match up to $Y"

or whatever. Just average the percentage out over the last 5 years

[zealous path]

You guys talking about pension contributions?

[delicate bane]

almost 1 day is nothing

[zealous path]

Mine is straight up:
Match 1-1 starting from 1-4 to 9-12
i.e I pay 9% the company pays 12%

[near ocean]

bare minimum 5% match gang

[deft herald]

almost been 1 day? Give it a minute...

[true harness]

what does that even mean in this context

[burnt zephyr]

Hi. Can someone explain to be the specific differences between front/back end? Including things like difficulty, job availability, and what skills are useful in each. Thx

I’ve narrowed it down to these so far and just want to know pros/cons from a real person.

[spark cobalt]

You've described the entire field pretty much.

Pretty much everything's either showing something to the user (frontend) or not shown to the user (backend).

Generally frontend work will be easier than backend work. Job availability in both.

[burnt zephyr]

Cool beans

[white relic]

if you define "backend" that way, it becomes too vague to be a useful descriptor

[burnt zephyr]

🍿

[white relic]

frontend is usually about "apps" (mobile/web/...) which may also have backends

but not all coding is something that you could call an app

[burnt zephyr]

🤔

[spark cobalt]

OS engineers, network engineers, etc.

[white relic]

indeed

I guess one could start by asking "frontend/backend of what?" and go from there

the terms have totally different meaning in electronics design, for instance

[burnt zephyr]

Hmm. Would a project that uses a database to show national days, for example, be just frontend because its all shown to the user?

[smoky quest]

don't ever connect directly your users to the database. You are gonna have a bad time

[burnt zephyr]

No its not all changed by users

[true harness]

frontend == top of the PCB 😩

[burnt zephyr]

Yessir

[buoyant seal]

Frontend:

• https://roadmap.sh/frontend
• usually lower entry level
• high amount of other low level entering people creating completion
• ton of job availablity
• u will learn only JavaScript, Typescript, frontend Frameworks
• your next career choices, imitating being full stack developer or learning design in addition
• usually less code architecture freaks, and less knowing how to test code, but u better learn it anyway in order to be amazing
• you will quickly see GUI results of your work

Backend:

• https://roadmap.sh/backend
• you can wield python, JavaScript, ruby, PHP, or Java, c# or even golang. Bigger language choices.
• u will deal with databases
• u will learn code architecture and unit testing for sure. May be even more than that and will reach full depths of software development (it is possible in frontend too, but in backend bigger room and tools of opportunities for this)
• job availablity, pretty much similar to Frontend. Usually a bit more challenging to enter though. People are more expecting you to have CS degree here.
• usually slightly better paid, but in most enough cases salaries are almost equal to frontend.
• most commonly u will deal with JSON Rest Apis and Databases, but not always

Disclaimer: I am not slightly biased backend Dev, and seeing it as job specialization with more career opportunities. Because backend guys are step away to migrate to other stuff like Data engineering, DevOps, ML stuff, tech leadership positions, analytics stuff and etc. And bigger choice in tools in general, including choice in more quality tools for development allows to learn deeper levels of most maniac levels of software engineering. JavaScript and Frontend is very limited in depth to my eye. Backend is pretty much bigger lake to learn non stop whole career

Frontend guys are usually learning only backend in addition at poor level as career extension and imitate being full stack Devs 😁

[burnt zephyr]

Danm son. Thank you so much, this is probably the nicest thing anyone has done for me on discord 🫶

[buoyant seal]

Take with grain of salt of my bias 🙂 anyway, frontend is believed to be easier. Backend is more challenging but more rewarding to career choices

[near ocean]

Why is frontend easier and if so why am i having webpack related nightmares?

[buoyant seal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo3cL4nrGOk This is the most comprehensive answer to... wtf frontend javascript.

[delicate bane]

something something because javascript + browser problems https://infrequently.org/2023/02/the-market-for-lemons/

[buoyant seal]

probably main problem is... javascript is messy. And developers from javascript/frontend have often very low code standards
it can be made in a good way with challenge to developers skills, but whole environment encourages to be not doing that.
and they bring in addition this approach to their any other thing they do :/
so, frontend+javascript is hard, but it is hard because it is messy. Not really in a good way hard. Inefficiently used time.
And at the same it is considered easiest field, and therefore it attracts worst talents.
So, gather all jokes about bad entry coders in PHP, Python and etc, and multiply by at least three times. U will receive javascript community 😁

[near ocean]

Theres nothing about the language or the community that promotes or encourages lower coding standards than backend
People have their tests, they have their documentation, they follow style guidelines, they use tooling provided by the community, etc
Kind of elitist what you're suggesting

I've seen my share of backends and most of them we're a jumbled mess of controller classes with no sense or structure to them, must be the culture of backend i guess

[spark cobalt]

All the frontend infrastructure at my company are built by backend engineers with like 20+ YOE lol.

I think just depends on the company.

[buoyant seal]

Nothing in JavaScript encourages lower coding standards? Whatever u say sugarcube

[buoyant seal]

And that is how they solved the problem. Experienced enough devs program WITH language to achieve result, instead of developing WITHIN constraints of language (quoting Robert Martin here I think)

With some effort good software engineering practices can be brought even to worst place

Problem is, it requires experience outside of this bad env pretty much I think

[near ocean]

Everytime you try to offer a frontend/backend opinion you come across as cocky, arrogant and just plain wrong
Maybe tone it down a bit?

[spark cobalt]

I'm seeing both worlds. One of them is brilliantly designed and one of them is so god awfully designed.

We had a new director come on last month and he was like, hell naw to the god awfully designed one.

[spark cobalt]

In regards to this first statement, the brilliantly designed one has a really intense code review and that is really grilling my ass lol. But the poor one is more lenient on building trash ontop of trash, because the foundation is ultimately trash.

I see what you're saying but I also see the exact opposite from day to day experience which makes it hard for me to generalize it to that extreme.

But I'm only at my first company, maybe I haven't experienced enough places to know.

[spark cobalt]

I guess difference between smaller and bigger company. We don't have such a strict division of labor where this first paragraph is true.

[near ocean]

But if it was experienced frontend engineers building a backend it wouldnt be "and that is how they solved the problem" it would be "theyre cheap imitators"

[spark cobalt]

Our company's moreso: Everyone's a backend developer, with some people that happen to know UI.

No one's spending more than 50% of their time on UI in my company.

[delicate bane]

someone on a podcast equated the browser to a warzone and i cant get that concept out of my head

i think it was the creator of gun.js

[spark cobalt]

Sometimes it feels like that. UI is exhausting...

[buoyant seal]

The era of web assembly is coming. Hopefully it will make it all better. It is already even usable. And mature for few years. Just not mature enough and ecosystem rich for real prod. Give it 5-10 years, may be it will impact

[spark cobalt]

[delicate bane]

WASM

[vapid jay]

hey guys pls give me developer roadmap

I am going to work really hard from today onwards till I get a job at google

[smoky quest]

A CS degree would be a lot more helpful than a roadmap.
For the roadmap, you can start with https://roadmap.sh

[snow rapids]

Ossu cs? https://github.com/ossu/computer-science

[delicate bane]

sorta clickbait-y + i dont think i like this narrative https://www.itbrew.com/stories/2023/02/14/how-to-get-the-best-job-right-now-full-stack-developer

“As technology invested in massive growth over the last few years, you could afford to have people that were very focused in a niche. As they’re tightening their belts in this economic climate, I think there’s higher demand for individuals that can work across the stack and be involved in a number of different projects,” said Erik Brown, senior partner at the business consultancy West Monroe.
also this is just one persons opinion that im unsure if i agree with

[wintry zephyr]

Hello im 19 yo doing my degree in computer engg , im looking forward to work in machine learning in python, any guidance for me to help me out in my carreer ?

[wintry zephyr]

my goal isnt for placement perspective but as looking to create a service based startup

[smoky quest]

have fun and try things!
There are so many possibilities out there. So do not hesitate to explore and see what you enjoy or not

[wintry zephyr]

thanks

im lost where to start and how to i only know that python is used in machine learingn im trying to do my research from youtube if youb get any good source from where i can learn do let me know

[smoky quest]

look at the channels on this server. They cover a lot of topics and they are all worth digging into

[wintry zephyr]

sure i will!

[smoky quest]

But python can be used for a lot of things. From games, to robots, to webapps, to ML, to desktop apps, to etc.

[wintry zephyr]

yes

[honest plume]

im hearing people say that you dont need computer science for software engineering or to get python jobs is that true?

[smoky quest]

Nothing is absolute. It's all about trade offs.
A CS degree is the path of least resistance and most opportunities. That's the most recommended route if you are in HS or college.
Foregoing a CS degree means you will do your life in extreme hardcore mode, and have less opportunities and be less compensated. So in essence, you can still find a job, but that job won't be the same. The path won't be equivalent to the path of someone with a CS degree

[spark cobalt]

Wouldn't how finely a company chooses to divide labor generally somewhat correlated to how much they can spend on labor to begin with?

Like let's say for the junior/mid-level level at least: Google would benefit more if the person had a super specific niche they were good at than a person that was okay across multiple technologies. However a startup might not be able to afford to have people covering every niche, so they get fewer employees that are more generalist and can cover more areas.

If this is the case (trying to be hypothetical here), wouldn't he make a pretty reasonable point?

[honest plume]

i suck at theory thats the thing

[spark cobalt]

More of a reason to go to college.

[honest plume]

also do online certificates actually help?

are they more after a degree or will they prefer more online certificates based on programming

[smoky quest]

That is the whole point of school and colleges, to teach you about it so you stop sucking

[smoky quest]

certificates mean nothing

You can't compare something delivered by random people for you attending for 2-3 weeks with a degree where people spend 3-5 years full time studying it with researchers at the top of their fields, and with interesting projects and internships

[spark cobalt]

To learn, sure. To actually get a job, not really.

[honest plume]

alright thanks both of you

[vapid jay]

Hello

[honest plume]

hi

[solid goblet]

Is a teacher (in anything) that says everyone can do (topic) exept me and also stated its easy toxic?

[spark cobalt]

The except you is toxic. Everything else can be arguably not.

[solid goblet]

The what except me

[spark cobalt]

Is a teacher (in anything) that says everyone can do (topic) exept me and also stated its easy toxic?

[solid goblet]

Oh yea

Fr im as dumb as a rock

I couldnt do mental math till I was 10-12 ish

And had to count fingers 💀

[warped slate]

@honest plume - I don't agree with all that has been told you here, certificates and a degree are totally different creatures, whereas the former will assess you on a short term and probably specific aspect of your study time, and what you retained from that time, a degree is non the less similar - if a degree was all based on a single end of term (3 or 5 years) exam, many that have degrees would probably have failed, they passed because they accrue modules / points (depending on where the degree is location wise, i can not vouch for all countries / Unis) that all accumulate towards an end result, along with possibly a final exam or thesis for the final mark. Before embarking on perhaps a CS do a certificate or two see how you get on, see if you have the aptitude and endurance to then do a degree, I know of many who come out of Uni with a top grade but have nothing about them and couldn't tie their own shoe laces!

[near ocean]

Certificates dont show you whether you have the aptitude to do a degree
Most are just a cash grab anyway

[white relic]

Your facts don't support your conclusions.
Of course certificates are completely different from a degree. That's the reason a degree is useful for starting a software engineering career, and certificates are not. But it makes no sense to "do a certificate or two see how you get on" because as you correctly point out they are completely different things.
Moreover, certificates are expensive.

[near ocean]

I could go get a certificate right now (if i had money to throw away), how would that tell me if im committed enough to study for 4 years?

[white relic]

Also see the top two pinned messages in this channel about certificates and degrees

[spark cobalt]

In the case of exploring the field and assessing whether "CS is for you", certificates would end up being more limiting than helpful.

For example, doing the AWS practitioner certificate won't exactly help you figure out whether pursuing a CS degree is worth it for you.

Simply just exploring yourself with technologies you see around you (the OS you use, mobile/web apps, games, networking (how are you being connected to the internet), databases, etc.) and also picking up a programming language to help explore these fields is far more helpful.

[chrome summit]

The degree is the minimum start. Certs can help to provide additional knowledge but they should not be a substitute for a degree. The pinned messages are spot on.

[white relic]

Certificates are mostly useful in specific fields. A+ and Network+ does help in IT for example. Not really the case in software.

[chrome summit]

My mainly worked in infrastructure and IT security which are very helpful for the certs. Never seen a programming equivalent for it outside of MS certs for SQL Server

Network+ was a joke when I took it. The Cisco certs are much better.

[white relic]

oh really

[chrome summit]

I didn't study for Network+ and passed it with no problem

CCNA is much more detailed

[white relic]

I've seen CompTIA requirements on job openings

[chrome summit]

I think mainly in government since they have certain DoD certified requirements

[white relic]

but it's not my field so I defer to your experience

[chrome summit]

I've only worked in banking so that is the main industry that I speak to

[white relic]

Certification is also useful in fields that are regulated in which you have to get a certificate to do something. Like in insurance (at least in my jurisdiction) you have to be certified to sell each of various types of insurance. But there's nothing like that in software either

sometimes I wish there was

[true harness]

I know of many who come out of Uni with a top grade but have nothing about them and couldn't tie their own shoe laces!
what you learn or don't learn is entirely up to you. same with a certificate

[sleek egret]

yar

[warped slate]

agreed, but the original poster of the question asked whether it was necessary for him to have a degree before embarking on a career in IT or if certificates were enough, the (my) answer to that was that its not mandatory but will certainly open certain doors, but its a lot of lifetime to waste if you embark on a CS degree only to find X years in its not as much of a magic solution as they expected, aka there are loads of Grads out there all looking for jobs but if someone came along with 10 year experience and no degree and knew their stuff your CS doesn't always compete with that (obvs thats a generic statement, based on the broad scope IT covers)

[white relic]

CS is not IT

[near ocean]

There are no downsides to a degree for software development, i would say it is mandatory, go get a degree

[frosty cove]

Tell that to my relatives ugh

If I had a nickel for every time they explained my job as some sort of tech support

[delicate bane]

maybe so

[near ocean]

The tip is to tell them you work an office job and never mention pay

[sleek egret]

why bother explaining?

[chrome summit]

Let people believe what they want lol

[undone dust]

What should I do after high school

[chrome summit]

Go to college

[true harness]

alternatively, trade school or the military. though for cs college is probably what you want

[sleek egret]

IMO, more young people should do a stint in the military. it would teach them some self-discipline

and, I think, for a large fraction of today's youth, some time in the military would demonstrate that they can endure far more and do far more than they ever imagined possible

[pine sleet]

sound like my dad lmao

[sleek egret]

I'm probably of similar age to your dad, so hardly surprising 🙂

[pine sleet]

based

[sleek egret]

based?

[near ocean]

To be polite?

[sleek egret]

it's better to be kind than to be polite. IMO

[vapid jay]

Hi Guys,any suggestion on getting some work on python backend development ..I am database professional and struggle in software engineering part so wanted to learn doing freelance or volunteering.Please let me know if any openings like this.Thanks in advance

[vapid jay]

Hi, I'm looking for someone who knows how to program and can help me with my project, its just text app, nothing hard, who's interested, DM me

[pine sleet]

Based indeed

[pine sleet]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[vapid jay]

oh ok, I just need help with program

just help

[snow rapids]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[delicate bane]

i mean my friend and i were saying that to have skills up and down the stack should be a long term goal of ours since we theoretically should be okay even if we get laid off/makes us competitive for positions.

obv you dont need to be a master of everything but having 1 or 2 go-to tools/technologies for each part of the stack and then going deep into one section aka t-shaped.

compiler's re:role series (podcast) mentioned the concept of a "vertical slice" (a slice of the stack).

🥞

[smoky quest]

it's a lot more than probable 😉

[spark cobalt]

It doesn't hurt at least, a degree can only help.

[smoky quest]

That's survivorship bias.
And that still closes many doors to you, especially the more theoretical ones

[sleek egret]

if joe didn't need a degree, why do I?!?!?

[pine sleet]

Joe was simply built different

[vapid jay]

where do i get help?

[sleek egret]

joe was a girl?

[dreamy shadow]

Yoooo, Steve jobs, Bill gates didn't need a degree.

[pine sleet]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[sleek egret]

Gates went to harvard and jobs went to a great private liberal arts university

[vapid jay]

yea i have a problem with python apps not running

[sleek egret]

most of the people saying "I don't need a degree" would have a hard time getting into a mediocre state school

IOW, they are the people who actually need the degree

[dreamy shadow]

I was being sarcastic (I know they were entering the top schools at the time)

[smoky quest]

they also don't end up doing the same job

[sleek egret]

I don't understand sarcasm

[chrome summit]

Bill Gates also had a million dollars to start MSFT since his grandfather had left him a donation in a trust

[lime bay]

This job market is really terrible if you're not a senior. Companies ghosting left and right.
Reaching the final stage for various companies and then being bounced for other candidates who came from FAANG or the company suddenly deciding that they need a senior dev / hiring budget ended.

[sleek egret]

lol, it's not terrible yet

the current job market is merely soft. terrible is when 1/3 of everyone gets the axe and every job has 1000 applicants

terrible is when wages fall fast and experienced programmers are taking jobs as taxi drivers

[lime bay]

I heard that's what happened in 2000

But it's still terrible for mid / junior devs.

[smoky quest]

we already had that number of applicants prior to the lay offs

[sleek egret]

it's harder, but not terrible. yet.

[chrome summit]

it will continue to soften as the economy slows

[lime bay]

Honestly true. Plus gotten so many verbal offers only for the company to realise that they could get someone from FAANG for the same price. Really frustrating

Wish we were in 2020

[smoky quest]

Time kills all the deals.
And it's not done until it's signed

[lime bay]

Suddenly learning this the hard way.
Honestly don't trust verbal offers again

[chrome summit]

It's been surprising the job market has remained relatively strong despite the interest rates going up but the FRB continuing to raise rates will likely cause a shift

Technically, even written offers can be rescinded.

[smoky quest]

yeah, and that works both ways

[lime bay]

Maybe it would come down in the middle. Saw yesterday that Meta wanted to do another round of interviews.
Many companies are now looking for a golden egg

[chrome summit]

I personally do not expect a soft landing that Jerome Powell is predicting. House prices are too high and the war in Ukraine has not stabilized.

[lime bay]

🥲
I really really hope it does not become worse.

[sleek egret]

it can always get worse

[lime bay]

The optimistic

[sleek egret]

the last 40 years have been some of the best economic conditions in the history of human civilization. it's only downhill from here.

[lime bay]

Sorry for Gen Z. Man those house prices

[sleek egret]

it's partially a problem with expectations. 50 years ago, the average person did not expect to be able to buy a home in their 20's. now they do. and the average home now is much larger and much nicer.

[chrome summit]

That would depend on the market. NYC is majority older homes.

[sleek egret]

I mean on average across the entire industrialized world

home prices are remarkably stable as a % of average household income

over literally 100's of years

what's changed is expectations. young adults today grew up seeing the lifestyles of the top 5% on display and that embedded in their minds that that lifestyle is normal.

it turns out that the typical, median, young adult has lower incomes and struggles financially. it takes a decade or two to reach overall household median income. this has always been the case.

and finally, understand that what was a typical home in the 1950's would be considered unfit for habitation or slum level quality (but cleaner) today

[potent stratus]

as someone who's in their mid-20s, I'd somewhat disagree that people think that lifestyle is normal - I think it's more that they see it as attainable and then spiral into "well why haven't I also attained that? am I not good enough? I need more money! I'll start a side hustle!" and I have gone on many rants about the manufactured discontent that social media creates, but I don't think more young people see that lifestyle as "normal" but I do see people thinking they could have that lifestyle when in reality we're not all top 5%ers

somewhat related to the earlier discussion on college vs not college. if you're a top 5% programmer, sure you don't need college. go build something incredible and prove yourself. but for the rest of us, college gives us projects to do and learn and show off our skills without having to be a top 5%er who will do it all on their own

[sleek egret]

that in itself is a change in mindset

[potent stratus]

oh absolutely - but "I could have that if I only worked harder" is a bit different than "that's the norm and I deserve it"

[sleek egret]

partly because of a generation that was constantly told "you're awesome just the way you are" and by teachers who put self-esteem first. IMO, achievement -> high self-esteem, not the reverse.

sav: but if you're great why wouldn't you deserve it?

simple fact is this: when you're young, you're not awesome just the way you are. in fact, you sorta suck. but you COULD BE great. if you work hard at it.

[chrome summit]

There was a chart that I saw the other day that said there is less affordability today. I can't find it.

[sleek egret]

ivejr4: people have been putting out such info for the last century. but in fact, lifestyles today are far wealthier and luxurious than ever before

doom & gloom sells to a certain audience

[potent stratus]

oh for sure - that definitely plays into it. there's a lot of interesting psychology that suggests telling children "you must have worked hard on this" is a lot better for them than "wow you're so smart"

[sleek egret]

just to give some context... I went to a top tier university in the 1980's. almost all the students were from upper middle class to crazy wealthy families... and yet almost no one had their own phone or computer or tv in their room. no one I knew had A/C for the hot and humid summer weather. our dorms were drafty and almost everyone's furniture was second hand. and if you lived off-campus, everyone had a roommate to share the rent & other costs. and this was how the elite top 1% of students in the US lived. kids at lower tier schools were even worse off.

IIRC, I knew one kid who had his own apt, his own phone and tv and his own car. he was from s.africa and his family owned gold mines or something.

his place also had A/C so we hung out there a lot when it was hot, lol

I've seen the dorms my nieces and nephews get now... it's crazy

[potent stratus]

sure - but I could make the argument that 500 years ago no one had laptops or internet so the luxury lifestyle creep that lets me work from home must be a bad thing - technology (air con, cell phones, computers) gets cheaper as it gets more common, and therefore more accessible

(dorm rooms are totally their own beast lolol they are insane)

[sleek egret]

exactly. people spend what they have. this is why home prices are so damn high

IIRC, people will spend around 1/3 of their household income on housing. always. been that way for 100's of years, probably 1000's.

[potent stratus]

I mean the problem is people spend more than what they have trying to keep up with strangers on the internet

[near remnant]

Hey guys. I had 3 rounds at a company, an HR round, technical round and another HR round. They invited me to a final interview with the CEO. The talking topics will be about salary expectation, when could I start, etc. (of course if I get hired) Is it just weird for me? To invite for an interview like this?

[sleek egret]

well, that's just poor decision making @potent stratus 🙂

[potent stratus]

are you saying the CEO is going to talk to you about salary expectations? how big is the company?

[leaden jasper]

How large is the company?

[sleek egret]

is it a large multinational with 1000's of employees?

[near remnant]

40 employees I believe

[zealous path]

Had the same experience. I’d say it’s standard

[near remnant]

There will be another employee as well, an administrator I believe.

[sleek egret]

if so, then yes, it's weird. for 40 staff, no it's not weird, it's very normal. and they don't really have an "HR" group, they have someone who does HR part time.

[leaden jasper]

That's pretty small. I wouldn't be put off by it.

[near remnant]

Anyways, does this mean anything? Like I have chances to get hired or its normal?

[sleek egret]

I vaguely recall that Hewlitt and Packard vetted every hire at HP until they had a few thousand staff. that's crazy, but goes to show how important hiring is to some senior execs

[sleek egret]

I'd say it's a pretty good sign they want to make you an offer, wouldn't you? stop overthinking

[near remnant]

Yeah, probably

[sleek egret]

live in the world, not inside your own head

[leaden jasper]

I would phrase it as, barring anything super bad you are probably going to get the offer. They're not going to waste their time inviting you this far into the process if they weren't intent on hiring you. It's obviously not guaranteed, but I wouldn't stress

[near remnant]

Yeah, you are right. But the HR woman when called me said: "of course if we choose you.." but I guess its a standard they have to say it. So I'm not assuming I'm 100% getting an offer.

[sleek egret]

it's not 100%, it's never 100% until they do

[leaden jasper]

That's just standard CYA language. She's probably not authorized to make the final call and doesn't want to bind the company accidentally

[sleek egret]

I mean, they'll probably not offer you a job if you freak out in front of the CEO and demand $5mil/yr.

[near remnant]

Haha, sure. Thank you guys!

[near remnant]

I'm trying, it's just been hard since the layoff. But getting better. Hopefully, I will land this.

[potent stratus]

but also go into it with a reasonable number in mind. I've seen mixed advise on handling the "what is your expected compensation?" question. you can decide whether or not to give them a number, but know that there are some companies that will give you the minimum of what you say you'll take and some that will give you the best offer they can no matter what you say

[near remnant]

I already told them a number when I applied. They invited me to all the interviews after it. So I will just say the same.

[potent stratus]

for what it's worth, I'd still throw something in that conversation like "this is the salary I'm looking for along with the right benefits" - don't sell yourself short and IMO don't give them a "this is the minimum I'll accept this job for"

[near remnant]

Sure

[low hawk]

https://youtu.be/bGBBZeI-8Rk

[chrome summit]

I give direct numbers personally. I just research sites like glassdoor.

In NYC, it got a lot easier since they are supposed to have the base comp ranges on the job postings.

[chrome summit]

but I am not debating lifestyle. I am referring to home affordability. A lot of houses increased in prices by up to 50% in 2020-2022 which is unheard of.

[sleek egret]

that's only because prices dropped by 30% in 2020

also, I strongly that 50% price rise is a lie

[chrome summit]

I guess the 50% gain I had between Dec. 2019 and Jun. 2021 was not real

[potent stratus]

I also give a number - but I give a range and make sure to say something about the whole offer. like a 20k salary difference but WFH and comfortable office stipends and internet reimbursement and flexible hours is still a competitive offer for me personally

[chrome summit]

I had bought an investment home in FL right before C19. The COVID increase was nuts.

[true harness]

what's Internet reimbursement

[sleek egret]

I know my house's value didn't go up by 50%, that's for sure

[sleek egret]

prices probably fell in other places too

[potent stratus]

I get $50 a month from my company for internet - which like, isn't a ton, but it's $600/year and I'm not the only person benefitting from my internet so 🤷

[sleek egret]

sweet for you!

[chrome summit]

the dense areas fell for sure albeit not as much

[sleek egret]

I get nothing

[true harness]

interesting. I assume this is for remote work usually

[chrome summit]

The C19 decrease in dense areas essentially wiped away 2 years of gains which mostly came back

I've never seen an internet reimbursement before

[sleek egret]

home price index has been dropping since Jun

[potent stratus]

I mean - 2020 to 2022 was a wild time in housing - rates were at a historic low and people were buying houses with cash for over list price with no inspections. houses were on the market for days when historically they'd be on the market for months - now with interest rates climbing a house in my neighborhood that was bought in the march, remodeled, and now listed for ~2.5x the price they bought it has been on the market since October and the price is gradually coming down

[chrome summit]

Yeah the sunbelt regions are the main areas reducing. NYC has recovered from C19 lows.

[sleek egret]

it's probably just a way for the company to save on not paying FICA and unemployment insurance since the internet reimbursment is not a wage, per se

[potent stratus]

it is only for remote workers at the company, yea

[sleek egret]

I can't imagine it saves them more than $50/yr per employee though <shrug>

[chrome summit]

Post C19, there were bidding wars for rentals in NYC. It was crazy!

[potent stratus]

interesting! I've seen some things about markets changing since a decent number of people left hcol areas when they were told they could do remote work forever. we'll see what happens with some companies telling employees to come back in person.

[chrome summit]

I only know banking. Some banks have adopted remote as the permanent solution while most want their employees to come in regularly.

[sleek egret]

people will soon learn that being remote all the time lowers your chances of promotion

I foresee a wave of lawsuits about that

and the remote non-promoted will lose. badly.

[chrome summit]

I would think layoffs and WFH may be correlated personally

Would be an interesting study

[sleek egret]

that too

it won't be 100% correlation, obviously. but it's far far easier to fire people who you weren't seeing in person every day

[chrome summit]

This shows the home price increases pre and post COVID - ~200 to ~300 on the index

shows the growth since 2006 (sightly before the housing bubble collapse)

[deft herald]

Interesting take. I noticed this type of thing is more true for those who were hired remote vs those who started in the office then moved to be remote

[chrome summit]

The personal relationship matters - once people know you in person and you move, they will think of you better than never meeting you

[deft herald]

for sure

[potent stratus]

I'd assume it's also a bit about what the next role is going to be - for instance if you're trying to manage a remote team but you've never worked remotely, that might not be as favorable as someone who has. but I'd also assume there are more in person management positions than there are remote ones.

I'm curious if the promotion disparity is for junior -> senior, or into management or both, as well as general company culture. I've always been told the easiest way to get a promotion is to just get a new job

[vital wyvern]

Jumping into the middle of this but I was under the impression that that varies widely between Fortune 500's, and a lot of job-hopping was just assurance of pay raise within current roles/responsibilities.

Though I guess when you say it now, it would be pretty difficult to promote upward from a mid to senior level if your team is fairly small, you're more or less just waiting for a retirement to grab that promotion.

[potent stratus]

It seems like it also depends on company, and really even individual team, culture - I know some places want a certain mix of senior / mid / junior devs (which I think is a good thing) but others don't seem to care as much and hand out titles like candy and they don't really mean as much.

[delicate bane]

yeah seems so

also it seems that for management/senior leadership roles, how long youve stayed at the company seems to matter to them a decent amount. this is ofc not applicable for startups/scale-ups

[dreamy shadow]

If it's a start up, yea rip. If it's a large company, wait at least a week then email the recruiter for an update.

[vapid jay]

is it normal when my vps server have ram usage: 129.63GB / 128.12GB ?

[deft herald]

yikes

At a week, give them a gentle reminder email

What exactly are you waiting on? YOu already had a interview or what?

[smoky quest]

the crux of it is to operate at that level and to demonstrate such skills.
Beyond that, there are also issues of opportunities and such

[delicate bane]

??

[true harness]

what has it been 3 days since, again?

[spark cobalt]

OA lol

[delicate bane]

bruh

[true harness]

bruh

[pine kraken]

Honnestly guys which was the best and most difficult project you made ??

[pine sleet]

interpreter

[sleek egret]

yawns

[peak halo]

@frosty cove please don't drop memes here

[frosty cove]

Oops, wrong discord group, but noted. Sorry

[modest lark]

[delicate bane]

thats a bit unnecessary bud. he already apologized. better to move on.

[smoky quest]

pygame is not a skill sought out by companies. I would suggest another skill from https://roadmap.sh a company would relate more to.
So building an app, a robot, or something related to what you have seen in class would be more interesting (ex: compression, error correction, compiler, interpreter, ml, DB related, etc.)

[peak halo]

Personal projects are fine to put on a resume, but recursive error is right that there aren't any companies that will care about pygame.

[true harness]

don't wait for harder projects from school. these will likely be relatively generic and boring. make fun stuff on your own. much more interesting than a project that was likely reused for multiple years

[spark cobalt]

Varies based on the app requirements, your own abilities, etc.

[smoky quest]

Hi!
It's the wrong place to ask about this as it is not related to #career-advice .
You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[random wagon]

oh sorry,

[smoky quest]

np

[random wagon]

I will move it

[random wagon]

it is simple as image just shown

[undone dust]

Can a university/ college can give admission on the basis of raw talent?

[near ocean]

No

[white relic]

I'm not sure what that even means

If you have tons of "raw talent" but your grades are bad, how would the university know that, and would they really care

[spark cobalt]

Only think I can think of is athletics being an exception.

But even still being good at a sport is more than just "raw talent."

[near ocean]

You work as a dev and dont have a degree?
Care to describe your experience finding a job?

[white relic]

How long have you been working?

[turbid dome]

my girlfriend work as a dev without a degree, thought you might be interested in her experience as well.

she came over to the UK as a foreigner with 2 year working holiday visa, no traditional scientific degree, went into coding bootcamp for 3 months with minimal prior experience (she tried self learning at some point but got stuck, i also tried to teach her but i suck at teaching)

after bootcamp completed, there were some support in finding a job from the bootcamp itself, but the support is limited as they can't possibly support everyone with high quality aid.

got discriminated against because of race in an interview, got a little discouraged but kept grinding. eventually got picked up as a junior dev after 3 months after learning scala to pass a take home task + some in-person interviews (the working holiday visa provides her opportunity to work for ~1 year without further sponsorship, that helped probably), as far as i know she has only been to a handful of in-person interviews, so it was probably very tough.

fast forward 2 years, she makes about the same amount of money i did ~3 years after i graduated with masters in machine learning. she is probably one of the most hardworking person i have met so that probably helped.

[white relic]

It's a little different, but I had a BS and got a job that would normally be done by PhDs, and while I built up the skills to do it I found that my lack of higher education became a problem when I was looking for a new one

But in my case we're talking 7-8 years down the line. Probably wouldn't make a difference after only 3 or 4 years.

Mainly what I'm saying is, I think completing that CS degree is a solid investment for the long term even if you managed to land a good job without one.

that's completely understandable

[solid goblet]

Is pygame a virus

[spark cobalt]

This is not career related, ask in #python-discussion.

[fluid oasis]

Hello there,
I have learned the basics of python and some very easy projects but I want to challenge myself to do a harder project and extend my knowledge about furhter python

So I just wanted to get some advice/ideas from you guys on what should I learn next or a project I can work on,etc

[devout hedge]

Anyone here have experience with remote working for US employers from the EU? (Germany to be specific)

[quick eagle]

"Hello world"

Hey there ,
Do you think it is possible to start working with Python in Europe without a degree?
i just started learning the basics and see how far i can go professionally with it

[frosty cove]

Sure, many great programmers never studied computer science or anything

[stable elbow]

got a second offer potentially coming up
and now that i am employed, have more leverage/is not as desperate

[true harness]

it's important to note that "possible" is very different from "probable"

[true harness]

huh. you accepted an offer and are still looking for more offers?

[stable elbow]

yes?

never stopped looking for jobs. and its my fourth day at my current new job.
this new job is fully remote, has good training and mentorship, and gives me exposure to data engineering work and modern tech stacks

[true harness]

¯_(ツ)_/¯ you do you

[stable elbow]

current job i'm the go-to IT guy and it isn't remote. So not good for my career goals.

[quick eagle]

Also , another question , After how many hours of coding on average would somebody need to work professionally with Python?

[true harness]

I don't think there's any way to answer that. it just depends on too many things

[stable elbow]

depends on what you use it for.
you can probably take a 5 hour course on the basics, then have at it.
If you want to get into DB and Algos, or OOP, then probably much longer.

[near ocean]

The degree is "mandatory", thats in quotes because not actually but go get one anyway, no more questions

[vapid jay]

What do you plan to do with Python professionally? If you plan to do, for example, software development, you should be prepared for the fact that you need to know a lot more than just coding with Python.

[white relic]

Also read this pinned post: #career-advice message
Having a degree gives more opportunities, better opportunities, and will stick with you for the rest of your career, not just your first job.

[regal root]

I started learning Python a couple months ago and went through different bootcamps already. A Month ago i stumbled upon Open AI ChatGpt and it demoralized me pretty hard. Do i even have any chances to get a job with my self taught python skills when companies can literally only hire a hand full of programmers that work with chatgpt to manage most of the work?

[buoyant seal]

it is not decreasing work, it is increasing

[undone dust]

So I can’t join an university and college whit my project what if I create some major project then their is any chance to join university?

[near ocean]

Chatgpt is only decent at well known, well described popular problems that have been done to death
Anything remotely more complex and the bot fails (with confidence)

[buoyant seal]

may be a dozen years later will be created solution which is really making a difference, but it was not made today yet

[regal root]

The thing that scares me most is that language models like chatgpt are only at the beginning of their development, imagine the state of technology in let's say 5 years

there will be A.I models working on the improvement of A.I

[near ocean]

I think youre overthinking this
There's been lots of improvements to many areas in the past 5 years and they havent put anyone out of business
Bad business decisions have done that much more

[white relic]

"Imagine how far technology will have gone in X years" is something mostly said by people who don't know how to actually measure the rate of technological progress other than by cool things

coolness and technology are only loosely correlated

[near ocean]

This isnt a horse carriage vs cars situation

[regal root]

i dont know what you mean with coolness, but the fact is that There will be A.I working on improving A.I itself. that scares me

[buoyant seal]

invention of trully exceptional AI, capable to replace developers is like... chance to open Hyperspace Drives?
Surely it can happen in hundreds of years... or it would not happen.
Not really a thing a worry about it. Chance to develop AI capable to replace programmers is about same as chance for Aliens to appear at Earth.
there is not really a lot of point to worry about it. You don't worry about Aliens, do you?

or same chance as for self aware AI to appear like from movie Terminator 😁 (in this case problem of developer jobs would be the last thing to worry about)

[near ocean]

At the end of the day if youre gonna give up studying CS and working as a dev because some chatbot will be out there doing things in 5 years, maybe you shouldn't have considered it in the first place

[regal root]

If you cant beat them , join them.. Why would i work on UI/UX Design, Homepages and so on if a company can literally let a A.I do the work in a couple of seconds XD

[near ocean]

I work on UI and i fucking wish this shitty bot could understand and fix my issues for me

[tender venture]

I think chatgpt mainly raises the floor for early programmers and more simple scripting. It can help speed up starting simple projects

[near ocean]

For it to even come close to understanding the context behind my simplest tickets i'd have to feed it hundreds of files of code

[white relic]

In 5 years maybe my local Burger King will have replaced the disgruntled minimum wage drive thru worker with a robot

[regal root]

On the other hand i can learn my language much more efficiently .. so i guess it's kind of relative

[white relic]

I am not at all concerned about AI from 5 or even 15 years away making better AI and displacing highly skilled work

[regal root]

So you are telling me you have never ever used Stackoverflow for debugging?

[tender venture]

Yeah I wonder about that. I'm kind of glad it didn't come out when I was first getting started.

[regal root]

Chatgpt is stackoverflow on steroids

[tender venture]

But I think it's up to the individual. They can grab the code and just get it running, or they can read the docs and try to understand everything. I think often this is a function of how much time a person has

[true harness]

nah. a stack overflow answer is not going to cave and edit their answer when you tell them it's wrong, when they're correct :P

[buoyant seal]

Funny enough article writers about chatGPT... exactly repeat this manager in black shirt, word to word 😁

[sleek egret]

maybe that comic was written by chatGPT?

[buoyant seal]

Doubtfully, it was released seven years ago

[sleek egret]

Or maybe that's just what the AI's want you to think? Ever consider that? Hmm?

[regal root]

I don't know anything about homepage design. I can tell ChatGpt to code me a whole Website simply with the sentence: "Create a code for a website in (language) that has (this specific logo) on (that position) and a UI with the style of discord.", and so on..

[sleek egret]

why would you want a corporate promo website to have the style of discord?

[regal root]

i think you did not exactly get my point here

[sleek egret]

I agree 100%. I did not get your point.

[buoyant seal]

I have read a book that was beginning exactly like that.
Except, it was released game to people, where they trained military AI without knowing about it, by playing against it
(And then they encountered same in game objects in reality)

[sleek egret]

was the AI a young genius boy named Ender?

[buoyant seal]

Nah. Someone else. I remember his robots looked like Hunters from Matrix

[sleek egret]

I see.

[buoyant seal]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ender's_Game_(novel_series)
This one to read? Looks fun

[sleek egret]

mayyyybe

so, hos 'bout them nicks?

[oak parcel]

I’m 14 learning to script

[stable elbow]

great that you're taking charge of your education already.

[oak parcel]

So far I can do luau and normal Lua and some python need to learn some of the modules

Ima go since school

[tender venture]

First book is really good. Haven't read the others

[pine sleet]

Based book

[sleek egret]

what does "based book" mean?

[pine sleet]

it means to be a book that is based

[sleek egret]

what does it mean to be based?

[pine sleet]

idk how to explain

but after what stel said the author is very unbased

[sleek egret]

please try to explain

[near ocean]

This is #career-advice

[sleek egret]

@near ocean that doesn't really explain

[near ocean]

It means keep the offtopic chit chat in the offtopic channels

[true harness]

I got an interview :O. I only applied 3 days ago

[near ocean]

Congrats, tech interview?

[true harness]

they didn't say 😔, but I'm assuming it'll be like half and half

[sleek egret]

you could ask!

[near ocean]

Very nice
Are they gonna have you hand write code on a whiteboard?

[true harness]

it's remote, so I don't think so. also all the times are literally next week on Monday and Tuesday . is it normal to be that soon

[tender venture]

Is it a contract or full time?

[true harness]

the job ad is actually kinda vague. it doesn't even say it's a summer internship , which might be kinda bad. it does say currently in school though..🤔

[sleek egret]

you could ask

[true harness]

indeed

[zealous path]

Rmah’s age is showing

[sleek egret]

I'm not trying to make an "issue" out of it. I just really don't know what he meant by "based" there. is it too much to ask for a 1 sentence definition?

[regal root]

certified boomer, very sus

[zealous path]

Im just joking that the lingo is too young for you.
A “based” opinion is one that is generally counter-standard/government
“I throw my used car batteries into the ocean to charge the eels” would be seen as Based
“I love the British Monarchy” would be non-based/un-based/cringe

[sleek egret]

I see. thanks.

[spark cobalt]

It depends.

Here's a person that made it work: https://youtu.be/173R6sg_Nzs

Granted, he probably has stellar academics as well since he was accepted to all sorts of Ivy's and T1 schools..

Focus on the bare minimum things first which is academics before this extra stuff.

Why would a college accept a student who has a history of neglrcting school?

[undone dust]

so i have to pursue whit math / physics / chemistry to get an admission in an engineering collage / university?

[smoky quest]

Software engineering/CS is not about writing code.
To that end grades, matter a lot more than projects

[fair relic]

Hello, chat

[delicate bane]

sometimes.

[smoky quest]

Just in case that was not a joke: there are tools to do remote interviews like coderpad

[true harness]

yeah, and the classic Google doc 😔

[near ocean]

We do ours in replit

[undone dust]

Do you know any colleges/ university best for engineering?

[spark cobalt]

You're prioritizing the wrong things.

Grades is bare minimum.
Taking harder classes and more STEM related classes can add a lot depending on what you're applying for.

[undone dust]

Okay 👍

[spark cobalt]

MIT

[true harness]

replit uses replit for their OA, believe it or not. and the task was related to making an editor sync lol

[smoky quest]

it depends on your country, preferences, situation, etc.
I recommend to look around, their criteria, their classes, and if they have any open day where you can go there and talk to the people directly

[undone dust]

Where it is located?

[spark cobalt]

Massachusetts America

[true harness]

"America" 😩

[undone dust]

I just wanna leave my country

[spark cobalt]

Is the US better to say or something I'm confused

[smoky quest]

Sure. Be aware that implies great grades and ways to support yourself abroad

[undone dust]

I am gonna join high school soon but I am preparing my self for future

[true harness]

I jest. North America is a continent :P.

[undone dust]

Okay

Do you know the normal fee for college in America?

[smoky quest]

they are all normal for their situation

[true harness]

arguably they're all high, but.. it depends on the school

[undone dust]

Hm what have to do to apply for scholarship?

[spark cobalt]

They'll 99% be more expensive by a pretty decent margin in comparison to your country.

[true harness]

that depends on the scholarship

[undone dust]

Okay

[spark cobalt]

These are generally all Googleable questions. I'd suggest you do your own research and if there's something within your research that you're confused about then ask.

Try Googling to see blogs/ways you can connect with people that did this path and try to see how you can get in a call with them to see what it took in terms of getting there to begin with, and staying. (I.e, maybe there's someone in your family that did this or a family friend)

[undone dust]

So what I have to do to pay the fee for college my parents are so called middle class
In India the normal salary was 1000$ I don’t think so they can afford the college fee

[undone dust]

Thank you 😊

[spark cobalt]

Ah if you're from India you should have many data samples to follow.

[true harness]

borrowing money is common

[undone dust]

Hm

[undone dust]

I am thinking to start online business there I can sale some stuff and then can gain some money.

[spark cobalt]

India has really good colleges I've heard, it's also possible to just do college in India then go to America for work. Much of people working for tech in Silicon Valley are something like this.

[undone dust]

But I don’t want to study in India it is really stuffed.

[true harness]

I don't know how well that would work, but ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[spark cobalt]

You can also consider more affordable places like Waterloo, in Canada.

[undone dust]

I have 3 years to go college

[spark cobalt]

It doesn't have to be America...

[undone dust]

Okay 👍

[undone dust]

I just wanna leave this country I can go anywhere

[devout hedge]

@vapid jay Can you tell me a bit more about the practicalities of tax/visa/legal issues?

[true harness]

D: they're looking for a spring intern not a summer one

😔😔😔

[vital wyvern]

Are you still in school, is that what's preventing you from doing the spring internship?

[near ocean]

Is there much difference? Afaik spring and summer both are 3 months

[true harness]

I'm in school, yeah. theoretically I should be able to handle both..

[vital wyvern]

Oof, I don't know that I'd recommend taking too much away from your studies to try and dual hat the internship as well. Have you talked to the recruiter about anything they can do to help offset the school workload and work...workload simultaneously?

[tender venture]

I got my first job while I was still completing my associates degree. I've been working full time since and am still working on my bachelors

[vital wyvern]

I had that conversation recently as well-- I'm doing a spring internship but they want me to be prepared to convert to full time at the end of the internship if retained. However, I'm going back to school. It was a delicate conversation, but it seems that they were willing to accept a reality where I walked away after the job offer.

[true harness]

well I'll probably have to quit my current job 😔 my free chipotle will be gone

yeah my main issue will just be time. will need to tryhard even harder

[vital wyvern]

Yeah, I'd be completely transparent with the recruiter on that end, and let them know the concern. There might be a simple solution to the issue-- reducing your hours on exam days, etc.

[spark cobalt]

Protein glitch gone

[true harness]

also it's just a phone call. am I right in assuming there won't really be technical questions? or just simple ones?

[west badger]

Off topic but you deserve a helper role

[spark cobalt]

Yep. But be expected to sell your technical expertise in some way.

At least for me, the initial calls was mostly things like: How long I've been programming, languages/generic technologies I've used, etc. Since no exp

[true harness]

i c i c. but that's all on my resume ‼️

[spark cobalt]

Just be prepared to ask some questions to them.

[spark cobalt]

That's what I thought too, but from my experience I guess recruiters just do this to confirm a few things, clarify the role, etc. before fully committing to the whole interview process.

[potent stratus]

my initial phone calls have always been a bit more "tell me about what you're looking for in a job, why you think you'd be a good fit for this one, etc." so not technical but a bit of "tell me that you can speak intelligently about the things on your resume and why you think they apply here"

[spark cobalt]

Yeah that's a good way to look at it

Either way it's ideal that your "tell me about yourself" elevator pitch does contain some technical stuff in it as well. Just see what the job description asks for and just briefly cover what you know from what the job asks for.

Mods gonna get your ass, they don't like memes here. Should delete

[true harness]

i don't get it

[analog sun]

Hi your message has been removed for being off topic and not relevant

[true harness]

mod delete race condition

[vital wyvern]

My first interview in a loosely programming related field was the recruiter reviewing my resume and asking me questions about my resume, not so much technical questions.

I'm sure that varies entirely by organization however.

[true harness]

yeah i think the hardest part is going to be coming up with a reason why i even want to intern there 😔. i don't even remember applying to them ngl

[vital wyvern]

Research the company and if you can't come up with anything, "I'm excited to learn and grow within your company, and I believe this internship will allow me to network and learn on the job skills. I really believe in your <x> mission and I think that my goals and the organization's goals align!"

[true harness]

surely they will see right through that 😔

[vital wyvern]

You'd be surprised. It's not always that cynical.

Anything but "Because you're willing to pay me," is a lie most of the time. How you sell yourself to organizations is a part of the game, and a skill in and of itself.

[spark cobalt]

It's a good opportunity to stand out in that question though, and test how much you really know about the company.

[potent stratus]

I mean, yes and no. recruiters know you're looking for a job because you want to make money. showing that you've looked into the company and can at least speak to some of their mission or values or whatever says that you're serious about it. that's what they're looking for

[vital wyvern]

It's ultimately a game. You're looking to display that you took the job application seriously, did your research, and have a way of selling yourself that says 'I will not look like an idiot if I move this person forward' to the recruiter.

[spark cobalt]

Do some research into the company, their achievements, or how what they do aligns with your career goals in the future (for example if they do early cancer research, and you plan to do ML in the future), etc.

These are questions where you can easily make yourself stand out above other candidates.

The easy answer is not necessarily the right answer. Invest some time to get to know the company.

I.e., a question that came up once was them asking me what I thought the company did.

It's a trick question that I got it right because I did some extended research beforehand.

[true harness]

that sounds like a bare minimum level of knowledge 😔. how is that a trick question. (also that should be e.g., not i.e.)

[spark cobalt]

Cuz everyone else answered it wrong apparently

[true harness]

probably very hard

[spark cobalt]

PhD minimum

[spark cobalt]

I've been using i.e. so much here and now that you mention it, probably all wrong

[potent stratus]

e.g. is for eggsamples (at least that's how I remember it)

[deft herald]

i.e. is what, "in other words"?

"In othEr words"

[pine sleet]

Id est, Latin

[peak halo]

Wikipedia says they only have 375 employees. And not all of them are going to be technical staff. Given how high profile they are, they can (and have to be) exceptionally selective.

If you want to work in AI, OpenAI won't necessarily be the highest profile lab by the time you have the credentials to start job hunting.

[feral steppe]

What do I need to get a coding job other than projects?
I am able to get non-coding IT job offers but I’ve never even had an interview for a coding job

[peak halo]

Do you have a degree? Or prior experience?

[spark cobalt]

Networking, applying more, lot of job hunting right now is a number game.

[feral steppe]

I have a degree

[peak halo]

In what

[feral steppe]

Computer Science

[potent stratus]

also considering a lot of people blindly apply to jobs (and you admitted you don't remember applying to this one) - it's also a question to make sure you know what you're applying for - I applied for an internship with a dod contractor type (think lockheed martin, raytheon, etc type) and one of the things they said in the first round was "we write software that puts warheads on foreheads and you need to know that before you say you want to do this"

[peak halo]

Then what Wilder said is probably right. The first job hunt is brutal.

[true harness]

honestly why would someone apply to a military contractor if they didn't want to support drone striking people indirectly

[spark cobalt]

Working for Apple to help prop up the Chinese economy

[potent stratus]

"blindly apply to jobs"

[spark cobalt]

I applied to about 4000 jobs. I don't have the time to research into every role, applying and getting denied is faster. (Researching isn't gonna help me pass the initial resume stage)

Now where you generally need a higher volume of applications to get an internship, just ends up being necessary.

[feral steppe]

I have an interview next week for an IT Specialist role and I was told it is a coding job in .Net, would that be a good first job for a developer? keep in mind I am more than capable of using modern tech like React, Express, and Spring

[vital wyvern]

Experience in defense contracting actually opens up quite a few doors for you in the way of security clearance and whatnot.

[spark cobalt]

So you're a web developer? You should target entry level/junior web dev jobs.

[true harness]

yeah but like, you still have to look at the company name when you click on the thing and go to their site

[vital wyvern]

Applying for a software developer at Raytheon/Lockheed/Etc., could vary from developing simple applications to interacting directly with munitions/aircraft responsible for the loss of life. I think it's an important thing to delineate up front.

[fluid fern]

I always thought i.e. meant "in example" lol

[potent stratus]

but also because hearing "oh yea they're a defense contractor" doesn't have the same impact as someone telling you you'll be helping put warheads on foreheads. it's about making sure that you aren't under any misconceptions. a lot of people see "defense contractor" as something defensive, and see defending their country as a good thing, without going to the next step of "oh I would be helping with that, not just {any of the things import pandas just listed}"

[spark cobalt]

Saving muricans

[true harness]

yeah, saving them by building better drones lmao

[vital wyvern]

Not here to debate the finer points of the military complex, just offering up that it does have benefits from a career perspective.

[delicate bane]

side note: your name tells me you woke up and chose chaos

[peak halo]

There's also defense work that doesn't involve weaponry or armed cconflict.

[spark cobalt]

The US supplying Ukraine with weapons I thought

[delicate bane]

this is true

theres cybersecurity stuff too

[spring harness]

turn on cirens in whole russia over radio stations

[fluid fern]

80% of cybersecurity is preventing the user from sticking a twig in the bicycle wheel

[spring harness]

WIUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU WIUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

[white relic]

The unemployment rate for engineers with security clearances is negative

[spring harness]

MESSAGE TO ALL RUSSIANS, REPEATING YOU ARE FLFFED YOU ARE FLUFFED, ALTIRERY STIKE COMEING IN 1 2 3

[pine sleet]

How does this have to do with the discussion of careers & work?

[spring harness]

well you can do cyber security or you can be a hacker and troll people

[vital wyvern]

For analysts it's at least one

[near ocean]

That lockheed martin pay got people trippin

[delicate bane]

lol sometimes it feels like that

[tender venture]

"defense"

[dreamy shadow]

Too bad they never going to sponsor the clearance

[true harness]

bruh i said "a spring internship does work for me" and then they replied with "thanks for letting me know i'll cancel our call" 😩 😩 😩. how do i diplomatically tell them to read better 😔

[vital wyvern]

"Excuse me, I believe there may have been a misunderstanding, I apologize. I would like to clarify that I am available for a spring internship, and would love to hear back from you!"

[true harness]

this etiquette thing is a major L ngl

anyways. 🎉 interview confirmed

[near ocean]

I dont have a website

[leaden jasper]

@vapid jay This doesn't seem to be on topic for this channel

[arctic radish]

Good day everyone, I am currently studying for a master's degree at the Polytechnic Institute, majoring in "Applied Mathematics". Now I realize that I wander from course to course, from task to task, but I don't feel confident in the activities I do, I don't feel effective, although I really like machine learning and data science, I really like to watch a lot of theoretical videos (like 3B1B, for example). What can you advise me to do at this stage to become a competitive specialist, albeit a beginner?

[dreamy shadow]

So what are field are you actually trying to enter?

[arctic radish]

not 100% sure but i rly like to apply some math in action, so Machine Learning preferably

[proven crest]

Hey all, I want to host a python program I wrote online so it can be used and is more than just a picture on my portfolio.

Is there any way I can do this? I know things like replit exist, however I'm not sure if they can work with libraries such as requests and beautifulsoup. Furthermore, ideally I'd like to be able to host the deployment page (maybe on netify?) so I can customise the surrounding HTML.

[dreamy shadow]

Applied math has many applications. If you want to do ML, do a bit of research first. Don't watch youtubers, but look at actual day to day projects. See if that's what you want to do.

[pine sleet]

[arctic radish]

And if I've decided that I'm really interested in it, then it's better for me now to try to solve actual problems myself? I'm just saying that I'm not sure that I can do them effectively at this stage. I was advised kaggle as a field for practice, but even here I don't quite understand where to start, which steps to move, how to get not point-based knowledge that I will forget the next day, but structured

[vital wyvern]

I think a lot of that is just based in experimentation. There's surface level knowledge that people apply in Kaggle challenges that just relies on knowledge of how to implement PyTorch/TF modeling, and it isn't exactly a refined take on machine learning.

But it's good practice and background into the field. Kaggle is nice for looking at surface level problems that you could be asked to solve, and evaluating ways to approach those problems.

[dreamy shadow]

Are you doing a masters right after undergrad, or do you have some work experience? See above on kaggle. Ideally, taking some intro class on ML would be better. Or look at intro guides into ML before diving into a particular sub field.

[vital wyvern]

The reality is that data science and machine learning can take you down a lot of different venues, and your starting point is simply learning at face value how these models interact with each other to produce results. The nuance will come with time. I highly recommend Probabilistic Machine Learning by Professor Kevin Murphy if you're looking to get an in depth but digestible introduction to the topic.

[arctic radish]

Yes i'm Bachelor, but for some reasons studied not very well and effectively 🫠

And in general, guys, thank you for these instructions, I really more or less understood the priority of my activities today, I will try, standing still is definitely not an option 😁

[rancid ledge]

A lot of people have gotten them as long as you say the truth

[smoky quest]

yes, it's pretty good! You are off to a great start!

[prisma moth]

Guys, anyone knows any Data Science project on politics?

With project I mean a business

[smoky quest]

There are a lot of things you could do.
You can pick any topic and read about them and explore them

[hushed bramble]

Hi, has anyone here got any experience working in the Automotive Industry? I've just been offered a grad job by Jaguar Land Rover and wanted some help deciding what area I should select to work in as they have given me the option to do so

[true harness]

should i email the company if their SSL cert expired on the website 😬

[spark cobalt]

That'd be nice.

If they offer to reimburse, ask for internship ezez

[true harness]

idk who to email lol. if i respond to the guy from earlier i don't think he'll see it until like, next week lol

[spark cobalt]

That's pretty fast response

[true harness]

they responded to my queries about the internship within like 30 minutes ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[spark cobalt]

That's really fast damn

[true harness]

yeah but then again, the interview is next week on tuesday so, ig they just move fast.

how's this 👀

I'm not sure who to tell this to, but the SSL cert on companyname.com has expired.
😳 ||company name dox 😳 ||

[gray sky]

Hi guys I've got a question

[sleek egret]

yo

[gray sky]

@sleek egret what I'm trynna say is 99/100 times going to an elite uni will be beneficial

[spark cobalt]

And the 1/100 is supposed to be...? Not going to university at all?

Actually scratch that, what's the question

[true harness]

1/100 is not getting anything out of university

[spark cobalt]

Sure why not. Sounds like you're pretty comfortable with them already which is a pretty good sign

[true harness]

yeah mostly because that thing where the guy misread my email and thought i said i wasn't available 😔. maybe i'll be a little more formal

[spark cobalt]

Just be polite and that's fine. The seniors I know don't really care for formalities just don't be an asshole and get to the point.

[delicate bane]

0/100 is not going to uni

[delicate bane]

now i know what that new term "quiet hiring" means. new responsibilities, no raise or title change.

when the business layoffs peeps but still expects you to do more.

[white relic]

If you want a raise, have you asked for one?

I was in a similar situation not long ago, I went to the manager and basically said, look, I'm pulling the weight of all these people who left and were paid more than me, I'd like you to do something about it

(you should probably be more specific than "do something about it")

[delicate bane]

"do something about it"

anyway, i dont think i have enough leverage since im too junior/havent had enough opportunities. theres one coming up that if i do well with i might be able to push for one

wont be until may though

[white relic]

IMO, if you are taking on new responsibilities because other people are getting laid off, it's a good time to ask.

[delicate bane]

[delicate bane]

speaking of layoffs, and i assume its different at every company, but i heard that sometimes senior leadership get essentially a number they have to layoff and they go back to their various departments/etc. and lay people off until they meet the "quota"

dunno how true that is but it seems plausible at least

[smoky quest]

anything goes. It can get quite dilbertian sometimes

[delicate bane]

thats wild but not surprising either

some places = seniority-based rather than performance-based

[smoky quest]

or connection, or luck. Or etc.
It's not become someone is high up the chain that they are necessarily competent or that they "deserve" it

[delicate bane]

luck -> russian roulette layoffs lets go 🎯

[sharp matrix]

ElectricPe SDE INTERN (2023/2024/2025)

Job Role: SDE Intern
Qualification: Bachelor’s degree/ Master’s Degree
Experience: Fresher
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Apply: https://codingactivist.com/jobs

👉 Share This Info to your friends & WhatsApp Groups. It Helps Many🙏

[vital wyvern]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[devout hedge]

So essentially there's no proxy for the US Employer in England? I'm curious about the legalities involved.

Working for a US company with German labor protections would be the dream lol

Ah yeah if you're a contractor that's different in terms of benefits etc.

Well if the difference between COL and so on makes up for it it's fine

[gentle ore]

Hey

I'm a newbie 🥲

Where can I learn python

[lyric ridge]

https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/

[nova isle]

Should i lookout for internships in my 4th semester of uni? I have started to feel like i am progressing nowhere in the race for gpa

[lyric ridge]

should always look for internships early

I'd practice some leetcode as you can as well for technical interviews

[nova isle]

I feel like i have nothing worth showing on my resume. I have been adviced that i should make a good project to that expresses my capabilities but i have not been able to think about something unique yet

[lyric ridge]

typically capstone projects will be your main talking point (senior lvl) as a starting point
if you don't have anything to talk about now or show then start that process

[nova isle]

Isnt that like a final year project?

[white relic]

You can put class projects on there. Don't try to build a portfolio at the expense of your actual studies. Internships are for getting experience - all the other candidates will also have thin résumés

[gentle ore]

Thank you

[lyric ridge]

yes it is, what I'm trying to say, is most won't have projects especially at soph level.

[white relic]

IMO this is a little late to start thinking about internships - you'd ideally want to have something lined up for this summer, but some of those programs will be already full. Doesn't mean it's a lost cause, though.

mmm
It's better to summarize that stuff on your resume than to have it hidden away in github

[nova isle]

Ohh my semester just started though
I thought i would have to start applying at the end of it

[white relic]

Honestly I made the same mistake my sophomore year

[spark cobalt]

Generally you wanna start applying around 9-12 months before the desired internship start date.

[white relic]

It takes time to schedule interviews, select candidates and send out offers and all that

[vale tangle]

Hello, I am a student and I would like to ask for some guidance since i'm gonna start my internship in a couple weeks and I'm doing my final assignment. We haven't studied Python at all and I am doing my final assignment in Python, I want to make an API REST in the MVVC structure, but I don't know what frameworks and where to begin. Any tips for a Python beginner? I've done similar stuff with Spring and Angular, so I know the logic behind it, I just am not familiar with Python...

[white relic]

You can still get them for this summer, but the options will be more limited.

this is very boomer advice

[spark cobalt]

Mfw security

[nova isle]

Oh i see
Better than having nothing. I will try

[lyric ridge]

flask/django are the only frameworks for rest API, or at least the most popular ones

if you haven't learned much of python, it'll be a learning curve

advice: start now, ask as you go / google before asking, read official docs

[spark cobalt]

Only is a stretch. Then and FastAPI are just the popular ones. Theres dozens of them out there.

[lyric ridge]

"or at least the most popular ones"

[white relic]

Good for you. I don't work at places where you can walk in the door uninvited lol

[vale tangle]

My main thing is I don't want to get familiar with the python frameworks if they're not the industry standard, and since I will be in a company that wants python devs, I want to learn the ones that will be most useful for my professional career

[lyric ridge]

django/flask will get a job, never heard of FastAPI on a job application

[vale tangle]

I have read that django is for bigger scale projects, is it not?

[spark cobalt]

Why not ask the recruiter/hiring manager or look at the job description of what you're going to do? Why guess?

[lyric ridge]

yep, and flask has the idealogy add as you go or something like that

[vale tangle]

See, the thing is, I'm gonna be on an internship with them in about 2 weeks, so I want to get my final assignment for the degree mostly done before that.

I want to go into the internship with a bit of a headstart, to make sure I can get a job with them as soon as I'm finished the internship

I'm sorry if my English is bad, I'm Spanish 😅

[spark cobalt]

I've walked in a few companies when I was job hunting. Security issues, workplace being hybrid, etc. You'd have to spend quite a bit of time investigating and in the same time you could've applied to like 100 other jobs.

[white relic]

that's not really constructive advice
"only do stuff that you think is going to work"

[spark cobalt]

Yes, so ask them what frameworks/technologies they use and go off of that. There's no reason to guess.

[lyric ridge]

80% soft skills 20% technical in my experience

[white relic]

the only time I ever walked in somewhere uninvited, there was nobody at the front desk

[lyric ridge]

I second this

[spark cobalt]

I wouldn't eat a box of donuts from a stranger

[white relic]

probably much worse in the post COVID era, more people are remote

[vale tangle]

I can't ask them because I'm not in contact with them until I start the internship, I only talked to HR and they don't know specifics, they know the languages being used and such

[white relic]

if you had come into my office yesterday, the only people in the office would have been people with less seniority than me (and that's assuming you talked your way past front door security)

[vale tangle]

So it's kind of a shot in the dark... Would Flask be the better option in that situation?

[spark cobalt]

Email HR and ask: "Hey, I was wondering if I could get a list of the various frameworks and technologies used in the company so I could have a bit of a headstart." Or something to this effect.

If HR doesn't know, they'll just ask someone that does.

[vale tangle]

I have the internship secured, they already told me, just waiting on the start date

I don't wanna email them and botch it for some reason, it's my first big company gig lol

[spark cobalt]

If you already signed the offer letter, ask away...

[vale tangle]

No signature been done yet, so I'm holding off

[spark cobalt]

Just don't ask something that was either described in the interview or in the job description. Even then if you did that they wouldn't exactly fire you.

[spark cobalt]

??

Having your start date defined with no offer letter and nothing is very interesting.

[vale tangle]

We can't sign until my teacher tells them the start date for insurance reasons

We don't know the start date yet, we just know it has to be before the 20th

[spark cobalt]

Idrk the laws in your area. But this would be considered a pretty big red flag in America.

[spark cobalt]

Why can't your teacher tell them the start date?

[vale tangle]

Well in Spain the internship is mandatory before you graduate so the insurance and stuff is all provided by the university, so there is paperwork to be filled in, and I had the interview 2 days ago, lol

[spark cobalt]

Sounds very interesting. Nonetheless gl to you.

[vale tangle]

I'm there as a student for 2 months, so it's expected that I ask questions, but yeah I'm not asking any questions aside from "what DB do I connect to" or "what IP are we using for this" 🤣

[spark cobalt]

You're there to learn. Ask questions.

You're not gonna be able to understand everything yourself especially since this is your first thing.

Just be clear with what you know. You're the intern, they're not expecting you to be a god.

[vale tangle]

there is no reason I should do my final assignment (it's a special big project you have to do in order to graduate) in Python nor do a complex API REST with its proper web app and different features , yet I'm gonna so I can get a headstart

[spark cobalt]

What's worse is you guess and end up doing shit that may require you to redo a ticket or something of the sort.

[vale tangle]

Well yeah, if it's stuff that I'm not certain I can do without asking, I'll ask, I'm just gonna ask as a last resort

[spark cobalt]

Business is business. If asking a question makes you be able to solve something faster without being a huge burden to someone else, ask it. Your ego doesn't matter.

[vale tangle]

I would like to specialize in AI and deep learning, but I also love back-end and database management

[spark cobalt]

The last thing you want is all your effort be something untracked and unaccounted for and have that used to discern whether they'll give you a return offer or not..

[vale tangle]

this internship is more of a trial run for me to start working with them, and this is an AI autopiloted drone company, so starting my professional career as a junior here would be massive

I believe them to be good, I've been top of my class since I started the degree

[spark cobalt]

You're doing a CS degree?

[vale tangle]

robotics

[inner wren]

Hey @karmic coral!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[spark cobalt]

How's your math?

[vale tangle]

my weakest point was math

[spark cobalt]

[vale tangle]

i've always been the sort of person who tries to automatize everything so i don't have to do it again

[spark cobalt]

So what's the desire of doing a role that's pretty much entirely comprised of math?

[vale tangle]

i like it 🤣

[spark cobalt]

Ah okay, something to work towards fs

Bare minimum of AI/ML is already quite involved in the math sector.

[vale tangle]

i believe my biggest strength is that i'm a sponge

[spark cobalt]

Most people suck at math because it's taught in a way where it's uninteresting and doesn't motivate a person to not suck.

You should read the Mathematicians Lament, pretty fun (and short) read.

[vale tangle]

i've improved my math skills very fast doing codewars stuff

[spark cobalt]

Interesting

[vale tangle]

once i do 1 problem i can get the jist of it really quickly

nope! but i'd like to

[spark cobalt]

There's a really nice book online called Probablistic Machine Learning by Kevin Murphy. A really nicely written, condensed book that starts from HS statistics.

[vale tangle]

i hated academic math but i believe i'm good at math, just in a computer science format lol

[lyric ridge]

bro i used to watch khan acdemy in middle school lol

like literally 14 yrs ago lmao

got me through early pre-cal and cal

patrickjmt I think was another good one for math

[vale tangle]

i'm only 25 so there's definitely tons of room to learn and improve, and i want to work towards it, i just love the concept of AI and robotics, i'm not the biggest fan of math but it is a necessary tool no matter what science you specialize in

[lyric ridge]

if i know anything from real life, you'll just plug stuff in lol / read docs to make sure material etc is up to spec.

most calculations are already set in stone / been done by someone senior level and or reviewed before hand

[vale tangle]

oh i know that, it's not just for the company tho, i want to learn how to do it for myself

i'm kind of a nerd tbh

so to sum up, should i just use Flask then

[spark cobalt]

I can't find a reason why asking what they use to be better prepared will hurt you in any way. Taking initiative is a good trait.

[vale tangle]

spanish professional mindset basically

it gives the impression that i'm biting more than i can chew; which i totally am, btw

[spark cobalt]

I don't know the situation as I'm not in it to really say. You have the best judgement

[white relic]

many Indians seem to feel the same way.
It's hard to know whether your feeling of being not good enough is accurate because India really is that competitive/whatever, or just self-doubt, especially for someone not familiar with the economic situation there
any advice I specifically could give would be biased to the US

[vale tangle]

i've not been a professional programmer so I'm not the best to give advice, but just as a rule of thumb in life, if you're not able to do what you want in your country, moving somewhere else can be a good idea, there's a lot of demand for programmers in europe

[white relic]

Does big companies like Google and Amazon filter resume based on similar criterias ?
Similar to what? To each other?

I've never heard anyone use stars on codechef as a metric for how good their skills are, and I wouldn't know what it meant if I saw it on a resume

well, but that doesn't really mean anything here

so, if you're getting a job at Google in California, it's not really relevant

depends, I guess?

[vale tangle]

you're just 21, so i'd advise honing your skills to the fullest and find a lesser job in a software company, as a junior or something just so you get some experience as a programmer

being a good programmer is not the same as being a good professional, so there's that

get a job in which you can learn, don't worry about the money, that will come later on

[white relic]

I don't work for Google or Amazon, but I see resumes that have been selected by project managers for further consideration and it's not really based on any particular metric

[vale tangle]

(but of course, don't work for free either, lol)

well from what i've seen the past year, being a good professional in this field is more about being able to work in a team, being humble and always trying to learn more, always being open to criticism, and also being efficient

most people like me, who have very high grades in their degrees and are very good programmers, often find that their ego handicaps them and struggle at their job simply because they won't accept that they're just rookies and know nothing really

most of the time, what you think is a huge accomplishment is something thousands of people have done before you, so you haven't reinvented the wheel really

[white relic]

I've gotten in the habit of asking questions in meetings that I think other people need to hear the answer to, because I know they won't ask it themselves

it probably is annoying to some people

[vale tangle]

and maybe the way you solve a problem, even if valid, is less efficient than your colleagues' approaches

so always ask for feedback on your solutions, even if you think your solution is the best practice

it takes very little time and shows a lot of initiative

i mean in a professional setting, also, always have your github repo ready for interviews

you want the employers to see what you've done, because it doesn't matter what skills you tell them you have if you can't show proof

most of the time they won't even look at the repo, it's not about them looking at it or not, they know what they'll see is irrelevant to the company mostly, it's about backing up your claims

[ornate hemlock]

What is github

[true harness]

it's a service that hosts git repositories. what git repositories are is mostly off topic

this is a very strange take. "computer science format" is still taught with greek letters, because those are the symbols you use

[delicate bane]

fastapi +1

[buoyant seal]

in python in general used only Django, FastAPI and Flask.
Django is having fixed MVC architecture, u will probably not be able doing it there
FastAPI is meant for REST APIs and a good choice to implement your own architecture.
Flask is like FastAPI but without comfortable things for REST APIs.

So my recommendation is FAST API for your goal of custom architecture of REST API application

[vale tangle]

is fast api valued in professional settings? i'm from europe

[buoyant seal]

um, when i said in general used, i mean, used for commercial purposes, so yes.

[vale tangle]

okay, thanks for the feedback ! 🙂

[idle sleet]

I'm looking for a job/career in Tech or Design (can be mixed) that's in high-demand and with high salary.
I want a career where I can be almost 100% sure, that if I learn the skills needed, I'll get hired no matter what.

To summarize, I want a job that is Tech/Design, high-demand, high salary, not too saturated, low competition. Do you have any ideas?

[opaque hamlet]

COBOL programmer

[idle sleet]

Ahh looks boring to me.

[opaque hamlet]

that's precisely why it matches the specs, yeah

[idle sleet]

do you have any other ideas, please?

[storm breach]

Should i include projects that i made by following a tutorial in my resume?

[true harness]

you could, but it's all about demonstrated skills. does the project demonstrate that you know the skills? if so then it's fine

[white relic]

Competition is largely a function of where and what kinds of companies you're looking at, not only what kind of work it is.
Both Amazon and Ace Hardware hire software developers. But Amazon gets way more applicants for a given position

a lot of the discussion revolves around FAANG. Those jobs are going to be competitive pretty much no matter what

We were talking about the defense industry, yesterday. That's a good place to be a skilled person, at least in the US

[idle sleet]

Yeah kind of, but I could miss some

So far I got interested with these:

• Front-End Developer
• UI/UX Designer
• Architect
• Cyber Security
• Game Developer
• Software/Mobile App Developer
• Data ...
• Cloud ...

Few days ago I started to learn Front-End development, so far I like it. I want to try out like that multiple jobs and then make a decision on what was the best.

[gritty rivet]

It almost doesn't matter what you learn if you learn it well enough. So my take on this question is always to focus on whatever you personally find the most interesting and engaging, because that's what's going to get you to do the work and get good. Look at job listings for ideas of what's out there and what's in demand, but don't go chasing fads. Find your personal strength and do the work.

[long merlin]

RIght

[idle sleet]

Yeah I agree with you. Thanks!

I know Python. Now I'm learning HTML, CSS & JS

[vapid jay]

Hey guys I am new in coding and finding mentor for career direction

Now days everyone is recommending python is best and easy too learn .

And second language is recommending and also good in game development is C++

What should I learn first c++ or python⁉️

[vale tangle]

python

@vapid jay https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ whenever you want to know what the most popular language is check this

[white relic]

The most talked about languages are not necessarily the easiest to get started with or the ones with best career opportunities.

that's not what this channel is for

[vapid jay]

Which language is best earning money python or c++

[quiet dragon]

cobol.

[vapid jay]

I heard first time in my whole life the language cobol

What exactly is do cobol

[tacit grotto]

isnt cobol like one of the main languages used in banks/cc payment api

[vale tangle]

cobol is like very old and hard to learn i think

[near ocean]

Youre not going to get hired as a cobol dev nowadays, why recommend it?

Reminder that this isn't a shitposting channel

[digital fjord]

There is demand for cobol programmers, but people generally want already qualified cobol programmers with experience.

[soft cliff]

any advice on finding a job as a junior dev? i've been self teaching for five years, this is my latest notebook [i haven't worked on the model yet] https://github.com/Studioname/flowers/blob/main/flowers_classifier.ipynb

[true harness]

generally to get a job, you need to apply

[soft cliff]

blocked

[near ocean]

Youre blocked from applying to jobs?

[soft cliff]

no, i blocked the person who was deliberately unhelpful

[near ocean]

You linked some random notebook and asked for job search advice
You didnt mention if youre actually sending out applications, if youre getting calls back, if youre doing interviews or anything like that

What advice do you expect from the channel?

[fringe pine]

Your tone here is a bit hostile, if I'm being honest.

But @soft cliff could you provide some of the information mariosis mentioned? It will help people in advising you.

[soft cliff]

@near ocean sorry was semi afk 🙂

yeah i'm applying for every junior dev job i get, don't get many callbacks

i'm autistic and find the modern process utterly hateful, but i do understand that to start my career i need a foot in the door so to an extent have to play the game

[delicate bane]

if you arent getting many callbacks, it is generally an issue with your resume

[soft cliff]

i can link it if you like

well my resume is basically a thing of nothing, i've been self teaching myself to code for the past five years and have basically completed two bootcamps

so i don't really want to self teach any more, and i think i have a good enough understanding of programming to work as a junior

[near ocean]

You can anonymize it and send over a screenshot

[soft cliff]

i'm 36 and was diagnosed autistic at 30, before then i just tried to shut myself away from people so i don't really have experience in long term employment

[vital wyvern]

You're barking up the same tree I am. You need to work on making more presentable repo's. Visually it's very whelming to go to a repo and, despite the complexity of the code or the solution it's applying, and you end up with a very bland readme that doesn't really detail exactly what or how you're going about solving the task.

If you intend to use GitHub to showcase your work instead of a conventional portfolio (which is fine), you need to put some effort into making those repo's more presentable if they're referenced on your resume.

[lime bay]

No one cares how long you've been learning or how many bootcamps you've gone to.
They only care if you have the relevant skills.
If you feel you have reached that stage, do these things.

1. Fix your LinkedIn
2. Fix your resume and add all relevant side projects.
3. Let others check your resume and LinkedIn and give you actionable feedback
4. Apply and iterate till others approve or you meet their expectations
5. Start applying
6. Get rejected and find out why you where rejected.
7. Use that to again iterate and improve and come back stronger.

[soft cliff]

ok mate i will 🙂 thank you, bit of eye candy

[vital wyvern]

The notebook is nice, and it follows best practices from a lot of very good Kaggle writeups.

[soft cliff]

i've gotten more and better advice here than anywhere else

[vital wyvern]

The end gets a little convoluted though.

[soft cliff]

it's not finished 😛

i literally implemented subset sampling yesterday and just wanted to make sure the whole thing ran

[vital wyvern]

Yeah, sorry if it sounds like I'm being overly critical, just rattling off first impressions going through it.

[soft cliff]

no worries 😄 it's about halfway done, but i'm happy to put my name to it

i'll go doctor my resume and post screenshots, brb

[vital wyvern]

Are you in the US?

[vital wyvern]

I ask because you're disclosing a disability in your cover letter, which is generally a bad idea. I realize it might be something that is influential to you, but you have a protected classification. You shouldn't willingly disclose information that employers cannot legally ask about.

[soft cliff]

england =]

[delicate bane]

you dont have any projects on your resume

[soft cliff]

for me it explains why i'm so late to the party hehe

[delicate bane]

which isnt strictly necessary but it sounds like thats where your strengths would be

[soft cliff]

That's cool - I should talk about personal projects i've completed in my resume? would portfolio projects be sufficient?

[vital wyvern]

Do you have an actual master resume? That document kind of misses the mark of the intent of a circum vitae imho.

[white relic]

Anything you have done is fair game for your resume. It's your resume

[delicate bane]

what trent said

[soft cliff]

nice

[soft cliff]

that pretty much is it

[vital wyvern]

Let me finish dying to Abyssal Demons because I'm paying too much attention to Discord and I've got some stuff to talk to you about if you have the time. I'd prefer to do it here because I think it's effective advice in general, but if you'd prefer any comments I have to be private, I do not mind that either.

[soft cliff]

if it can help other people then by all means 🙂 i'm not fussed

[vital wyvern]

So for your situation, the first thing I would recommend is simply moving away from the Circum Vitae format for now. If your CV is roughly the length of a regular resume, you might be doing yourself a disservice in regards to actual... tedium trying to maintain both. You can maintain a master resume until you've got enough experience and projects for it to be more practical to move to a longer format.

[soft cliff]

i thought a cv was the same as a resume >_>

[naive bronze]

hello everyone

[vital wyvern]

Nope! Circum Vitae is intended to encompass your entire life history and experience in the context of work and qualifications/volunteering/skills/education.

[soft cliff]

darn

[naive bronze]

i really need help, discord selfbot is actually possible??

[soft cliff]

ok i'll change it to resume :p

[vital wyvern]

Okay you've got my full attention. I'm doing some resume refinement myself at the moment, so I understand the struggle. 🙂

[lime bay]

Sorry to be blunt but this resume won't pass any hiring manager.
I'll share an example of a resume

[vital wyvern]

Your personal skills and summary are kind of merged together. I would separate and clearly list your skills in context of whatever job you're applying. If you're just maintaining a master resume (which you should never distribute) you should consider listing them by functional area for your reference use.

I'm by no means a resume master, but what I really think you need to do is go back into your work and project experiences and start identifying the impacts of what you're doing.

[soft cliff]

that's ok 🙂 i appreciate the honesty

[white relic]

CV is more commonly asked for in academia and on the continent. Here in the US it's virtually all résumé format. Don't know what the expectations may be in UK but worth being aware of

[vital wyvern]

Here's an excerpt from my resume. It's not perfect, but you'll note that I very deliberately tried to place an IMPACT after the task I was doing. What did it do for the business?

[vale tangle]

yeah never disclose anything that they aren't allowed to ask

[soft cliff]

aye that's good

[vital wyvern]

You need to let your potential target audience know the results of your actions so they can translate it easier to business tasks that they might have.

[soft cliff]

things are a bit different in the uk - if i want the employer to make reasonable changes then i have to disclose that i'm disabled [afaik]

[vital wyvern]

Personally I would bring that up in an interview, but I'm not smart on UK law.

[soft cliff]

fair enough

[white relic]

That is the same in the US, but you don't need to disclose it before you're hired