career-advice

[chrome summit]

Ahh good deal. 😀

[pine sleet]

Quite. Interesting as well, and has lots of opportunities

[vapid jay]

Accept my request

[supple fossil]

i had a technical interview last week. I've only had 3 in my lifetime, and i think i did the best ive ever done. However i still think i did not get the job. So i am fighting my sadness. These interviews and hiring process is crap and idk what i can do to ensure i land a job. I am a generalist and id like to specialize, but i dont really care in what. so it makes it hard to focus my time practicing specific technologies.

[sleek egret]

why is the process crap? what do you think hiring companies should do?

[zealous path]

Not necessary information but how old are you?

[supple fossil]

32

[supple fossil]

because i look up 90% of the things that i need to know. I learn as i go, and because i wear a lot of hats i don't always spend as much time on a particular subject. So when I'm asked very specific questions it makes it hard to answer.

[zealous path]

And have you only done 3 technical interviews in your lifetime because you never made it past the stage before or was it generally not a requirement in most of your interviews?

[supple fossil]

because I am self taught I've had to take a non traditional route to employment in tech. I've always come in as an X and built tools. It wasnt until most recently that I was a full time dev through an internal promotion process.

generally ive always worked for crappy companies with no or minimal tech department. I've always worked really hard and my results speak for themselves, but usually company culture is not very pro technology

so as a result ive become a generalist, though i think that is normal in the start, however now i have about 5-6 years of coding experience, developing software for companies ive worked for

[sleek egret]

no one is questioning your work ethic

[zealous path]

It’s something you’re just gonna need to accept. People have a problem, they need a good solution.
It’s great you could build a standard house but the project requires someone to make a million $ bathtub.
You get it?
The system is not gonna change to accommodate you, you’re gonna need to look at the requested tech stacks and learn them to fully prepare yourself for what they might ask.

[supple fossil]

and now i am looking for a job outside of where i work, i keep getting bombarded withs cam recruiters asking me for personal information.

I had a really good experience interviewing last week, the hiring manager said she really like the conversation during the culture interview

and during the technical, there were 4 people asking questions and I think i did alright, i definitely over explained topics to show big picture knowledge, but i cant help feel like maybe i explained things incorrectly, or maybe i missed some pieces of information that I should have known

[supple fossil]

yes i understand but i have a wide range of maybe like 2 or 3 out of 5 star skills. so then idk what to think when people ask me specific questions

[sleek egret]

yes, the lack of feedback during the interview process is problematic

[sleek egret]

It's often OK to say "I don't recall the exact details to X offhand, but I could easily look up Y and Z to get the info". I.e. demonstrate your problem solving skills.

Sometimes it's not ok. And in those instances, you won't get an offer. But it's almost never good to just say "I don't know" and stop. Saying "I don't know but here's how I'd find out" is much better.

but don't just say "I'd use google" because anyone can say that

make sense?

[supple fossil]

i think right now i am very nervous because i thought i did really well on the culture interview, and maybe like 2/5 or 3/5 on the technical interview. So i feel kind of sad and anxious because i care about my work, and have imposter syndrome. So right now im just on edge, and i know i should be applying for more jobs and practicing/building things.

I've been going on hackerrank to practice concepts and go through their "preparation track" but i still feel crappy.

[sleek egret]

another route is to use a story. they ask you "what call would you use in library foo to solve this?" if you don't know, you can respond with a story about how you faced a similar situation before and how you solved it.

[sleek egret]

when you're behind the curve and need to catch up, you should feel bad. it's the universe's way of telling you that you need to work to improve. so you are taking steps to improve. that is a good thing.

imagine the reverse. imagine that you were so deluded as to think that you are super awesome and that the interviewers were all idiots who just didn't recognize your uber-leet-genius! then you wouldn't do anything to improve yourself! that is bad.

what's important is that you work on improving yourself. both in terms of your technical skillset as well as your interview chops. the latter can really only come from practice. so go on more interviews. accept that most will reject you. it's just the way of the world.

take heart that even the top movie stars must audition for many roles before they land a job. think about that.

[supple fossil]

interviewer asked me the difference between pickle library and SQL, and i never even looked that up before but i knew pickle was for serializing things, and sql is a database so i said that, and then i thought more about it and realized maybe sql uses serialization, and of course it does the data has to be stored someway.

I looked it up after and it turns out pickle is for object storage and sql is a database, so i mean i hope i was kind of close....

but that's just one example.

It really felt like i was bullshitting my way through the whole thing, and yes i showcased my big picture knowledge, but maybe fumbled a bit on some of the more detailed questions. Which is like... idk if that means i screwed up or what.... im a generalist i feel like all the particular questions they asked I was able to at least answer partially. or at times over compensated.

like for example they asked me how to make a REST request, and i explained to them how the internet works, literally how a request is sent through the CDN down and passed along until one of the registrars responds and says they have that url, they would then check if there are any subdomains, or so on... and eventually they find the endpoint which you are requesting.

I then went on to explain all the different types of requests, get post delete, patch and put.

I explained to them how the payload works, meaning sometimes you need api access in the form of a token, this information gets passed along the request.

I then explained the difference between get post and delete, and then struggled with the nuances of patch, put and post, since they all do similar things. But i think the main difference was the endpoint type, and the file size change

[sleek egret]

it sounds like you ramble and dig deep into arbitrary things

so, let me make a suggestion for next time. just ask them what they want. then give it to them. it's often that simple.

also, just as an FYI, when you make an http(s) rest request, there is no interaction with domain registrars

the hostname gets sent to the system resolver which may query a dns server (which may recursively send requests to other dns servers) to get the IP. the registrar is not involved here.

[sleek egret]

also, I suspect that you are over-compensating for your nervousness. what often works is to provide a very high level, one sentence answer. then ask "would you like me to go into more detail? if so, which part?"

[white relic]

yeah, if someone asks how to make a REST request and your response is to explain the DNS stack I think you might have kinda missed the point of the question

[sleek egret]

the more you ramble about more shit, the more likely you'll say something incorrect

so keep your answers short. and make the discussion interactive (i.e. ask them about what they want you to say). make mild jokes.

like, you could have started with "well, first the rest library will have to lookup the IP of the hostname using DNS. That's a whole production, lol. You want me to dive into that?"

[supple fossil]

I feel like eventually I did address their main question though @white relic

@sleek egret and you are right because I think that’s what ended up happening. I really don’t know how to balance that fine line if not over explaining but then not being able to actually answer their question directly

[sleek egret]

if they say "no". then skip it.

[sleek egret]

that's what I'm trying to tell you. don't guess where the line is. ASK THEM.

[supple fossil]

In my head I though well, if I show them I know beyond the scope of their question, even if I make a small mistake for their question I am still showing that I do have broad knowledge. Which might be valuable idk

[sleek egret]

while that makes sense on the surface, that's not how human minds work. they will only remember what you said wrong.

[white relic]

Would you rather have a coworker who answers questions with straightforward, concise answers or one who when asked what time it is, starts to explain how NTP works?

[sleek egret]

you should speak for 10 to 30 seconds. then pause. ask if they want more details, or just wait to see if they interject something.

[supple fossil]

Idk what to say I just tried my best.

[sleek egret]

No you didn't. You will get far FAR better at interviewing after your first few dozen interviews.

[supple fossil]

One of my first interviews I had a panic attack because I couldn’t perform a left join

[summer roost]

Interviewing is a skill like any other. You get much better at it with practice.

[supple fossil]

That’s the only time in my life I’ve had a panic attack.

In college I always had a syllabus to study so it made tests easier. But this interview process is so abstract

[sleek egret]

it's fine to say "um, I can't recall how to do this offhand, I think I would need to look up the details" once or twice during an interview

[white relic]

People choke sometimes. It happens, no need to dwell on it. You will learn to handle pressure better.

[sleek egret]

I've had interviews where we mostly talked football. I know shit about football. When you find yourself in such situations, one route is to start asking them questions.

[supple fossil]

I would rather have a coworker who understands a lot of things, than one who gave short answers

[sleek egret]

You don't give a short answer and then stop. Do not give the impression that you're done. Stop and ask if they want you to provide more details.

[supple fossil]

I get what everyone is saying.

I’m stressed. As you can see I care a lot about my work.

[sleek egret]

Being brusque not good either. Be succinct, but make it a conversation. Give the interviewer the opportunity to say "more please" or "that's enough".

[white relic]

Knowledge is at most 50% of an interview. You're not being tested on whether you know all the answers, even in a "technical" interview

[sleek egret]

That you are stressed is not really relevant or helpful except in so far as you seek methods to help manage it.

to emphasize what @white relic just said, many places purposefully ask questions they know you can't answer. Just to see how you respond to it.

it's an interview, not a test

[white relic]

Especially if you don't have professional experience. At entry level you should be glad the interviews aren't about testing whether you have the knowledge necessary to do the job, because you don't

[supple fossil]

It was a mid level position actually. At my job I supervise people

[sleek egret]

you really need to understand that. an interview is NOT a verbal exam

I'm hungry

[supple fossil]

Confusing because some places give whiteboards

[sleek egret]

so? that does not change what I said.

[white relic]

whiteboards are a useful communication tool

in my office we draw on the glass walls

[sleek egret]

ooh, fancy. we only dream of glass wall whiteboards!

[white relic]

I'd rather have a whiteboard personally

[peak halo]

I hope you have a lot of windex

[white relic]

not nearly enough

[sleek egret]

the glass doesn't have a frosted layer for opaqueness?

[leaden jasper]

To re-iterate what others have said. An interview is not "do you know everything we expect for this job, let's find out"

It's a "let's have a conversation, make sure you have the appropriate amount of knowledge, and that we can work and get along with you"

[white relic]

nah 😔

[sleek egret]

well, that's not optimal. you should fix that 🙂

[supple fossil]

I explained to them I’ve had to take a non traditional route to programming.

Hopefully they saw me as I was, someone who cares a lot, knows a lot, is nervous about the interview process.

Someone who is passionate and dedicated to their work

[sleek egret]

Don't do that unless they ask. Most people won't care.

[white relic]

I don't know if I'd go that far. A lack of relevant education/experience will show on your résumé, people may want an explanation of why you think you are qualified for the job despite it

[sleek egret]

It's fine to explicitly say that you are passionate about software dev or technology or whatever once. But only once. After that you need to demonstrate it.

[sleek egret]

IMO, unless there's something exceptional about how you learned your skills, best to just demonstrate you have the skills.

[delicate bane]

literally this. cannot emphasize this enough

[supple fossil]

This was my 3rd interview in the tech space. My first in 12 months.

Idk what more I could have done given the circumstances, hopefully that’s enough.

Either way it’s out of my control at this point.

I feel more anxiety going forward however because of the lack of feedback or standardization around this process.

But idk what to do beyond be transparent. As an employer I’d appreciate that above all else.

[leaden jasper]

I'm coming into this convo late, so I may be missing additional context. But if interviews are an anxiety point for you, then luckily you can just practice. Get some of those jitters out of your system and get your brain used to being unstuck in those higher-stress situations

[sleek egret]

3 interviews is not a lot, brah. many people do a dozen or more before getting an offer.

[supple fossil]

Thank you, however that brings even more challenges lol. I guess it is what it is

[leaden jasper]

Interviewing is a skill that you can practice. So take some comfort in that

[sleek egret]

and get used to the lack of feedback. companies have learned that more feedback just yields more lawsuits. so they don't do it.

it's sad and bad for everyone, IMO. but it is what it is.

[sleek egret]

Perhaps arrange for some mock interviews with people you respect

[leaden jasper]

I'm currently vibing on some post-anesthesia side effects, but I may be able to find some resources for how to practice interviewing

[supple fossil]

The problem is that there is no standardization in the interview/hiring process. It’s not like college where there is a syllabus to study. Every company operates differently. This issue is compounded when your skill set is more broad. You end up having too many things to prepare for.

[sleek egret]

do universities not do mock job interviews anymore?

[supple fossil]

I’m sure they do

[delicate bane]

+1 for mock interviews. they go a long way

[supple fossil]

Thanks

[leaden jasper]

True, but a lot of the interviews have some common denominators and skills that transfer.

Being personable and being able to connect with the interviews at least a little, while showing you have relevant skills will get you so far. That's your real goal. Interviews are just different flavors of maps/obstacles/whatever, but the same main goal

So take a step back and look at it not from the per-specific-interview level, but at the more general "this company really wants to hire someone they can work with and do work they need accomplished
I can do both of those, let me show that."

[summer roost]

there's some degree of standardization. For software engineering jobs, one common thread is that programming skills tend to be evaluated in the context of data structures and algorithms questions. But there's only so much standardization you can have when different companies are looking for people with different skills.

[supple fossil]

alright thank you

[supple fossil]

well for example this company was looking for an automation engineer to work with apis and compile data sets.

so i studied the request cycle, and how to work with numpy because thats a really strong data library in python.

they asked 0 questions about numpy, and 1 about the request cycle.

0 about search algos.

[white relic]

Also, sometimes you just fail an interview and it's not really your fault or something you can learn from. Like you got off on the wrong foot with the interviewer, or you missed a question due to being unfamiliar with the terminology they use there. It sucks, but you just have to mark it as a loss and keep trying

Or something like that - you prepared for the wrong subject matter and were caught by surprise

[summer roost]

so what did they ask questions about? It's possible that your assumptions about what skills would be most relevant for an automation engineer were wrong.

[delicate bane]

that sounds like a flavor of data engineering to me (even if theyre not calling it that)

did they ask anything about cloud or ETL tools?

[supple fossil]

they asked basic python questions, like the different data types, they asked questions about how to return multiple variables.

they asked mostly questions based on my resume and work experience.

now keep in mind the recruiter contacted me on tuesday, set up a culture interview for wednesday, had a technical on thursday.

I crammed as much as i could and laid myself out for them to disect, so to speak, because idk what else to do.

but i ended up spending time studying things they didnt ask about, and over explaining things that maybe they didnt care about.

and today im supposed to just pick up and chug along. But it feels like im bashing my face against a wall, hoping that eventually someone will hire me. In the back of my mind im thinking to myself, the only company that will hire me is one that has work culture issues, that im not gonna find a place that values my work and can provide the right environment.

[sleek egret]

at least you learned something, so it was not time wasted

[summer roost]

In the back of my mind im thinking to myself, the only company that will hire me is one that has work culture issues, that im not gonna find a place that values my work and can provide the right environment.
Seems like an unreasonable conclusion to draw from a bad interview. You learned that you studied the wrong stuff, and that maybe you spent too much time going in depth on things where they would have been happier with shallower answers. Those are both lessons that you can draw from when preparing for your next interview.

[sleek egret]

gotta agree with @summer roost here

[supple fossil]

taking the jobs nobody else wants is how ive grown, I'm self taught, and its really annoying because im tired of dealing with office politics, and normally i dont care you know id just keep grinding it out, what else can i do. I'm just sad, anxious, and frankly desperate.

my last job i built an entire dashboard, literally saved my company during the pandemic, only to be smeared a few years later by the same people who dropped the ball during 2020.

it's a clusterfuck honestly, and yeah im gonna focus on taking care of myself, focus on the next step. Not that i really know what that's going to be. Other than keep applying, try to interview more and get better with time.

but you know, idk it's rejection, what else can i say.

[sleek egret]

sounds like you need to listen to some chill tunes for a while, man.

try not to take shit that happens outside of your control too personally

[summer roost]

you might want to consider therapy for helping you deal with some of those negative emotions. They seem to be holding you back. Beyond that, it's expected that someone self-taught have trouble getting a firm footing in industry. You should expect that you need an above average amount of hustle in landing jobs until you've got a decent amount of work history under your belt.

[supple fossil]

at this point ive built tools for companies since 2017. im at that stage where i should be landing better jobs. at least now i get recruiter calls. which is a positive.

yes i understand mental health is important. I basically am getting forced out of my current job, and i was planning to get a house this year, got pre-approved for a mortgage.

so this interview would have meant a lot to me. It's in the health sector as well, which is resilient during recessions.

[sleek egret]

that's only 6 years

your career is just getting started. and sounds to me like it's gone quite well for you thus far

[supple fossil]

anyway thank you for your advice, and listening to my rant. it's been tough, i have a lot of things going on right now.

[summer roost]

as far as actionable things you can do today go, mock interviews, resume reviews, and therapy or meditation sound like things to focus on.

[sleek egret]

best of luck with your job hunt!

[supple fossil]

idk if i should be narrowing the scope of what im applying for. that might be a smart place to start. but it comes at the cost of less opportunities.

im supposed to get a response maybe by tuesday/wednesday so we will see. hopefully i didnt scare these people off.

otherwise i mean yeah, just keep moving forward what else can i do

[summer roost]

that's a hard call. applying to things that are clearly outside of your skill set and experience is a waste of your time and the interviewers, but it's not always clear cut what things are within reason to apply to and which aren't

[delicate bane]

maybe part of the issue could be a skill alignment problem too

[supple fossil]

that is the crux of my issue. that is why im posting in here today. Because this job application process is overwhelming, im a generalist and i feel like that combined with the lack of standardization in the interview process is making the prep phase really hard for me

as i gave an example before, i studied as much as i could in a very short period of time, only to not be asked about half the things i studied. I just dont see how this is going to scale with more job applications/interviews. and as you see i dont have the experience really to nvaigate this. i verbal diarrhea all over the interviewers

[summer roost]

cramming for an interview is usually not helpful. Interviews are trying to evaluate the skills that you already have. You're probably not going to be able to pick up new skills for each interview - that's certainly not a scalable approach, anyway.

[supple fossil]

but i dont have just one skill set, i am backend app logic/data engineering/devops.

i was thinking of narrowing the scope down to maybe like just one of those things, and prep for that

again, though the cost is less openings

[summer roost]

if you already have all of those skills, then you should be a in a good position to answer interview questions about any of those skill sets already.

[supple fossil]

im gonna go for a walk, clear my mind, do some more hacker rank questions. apply for some backend jobs. maybe work on my personal website today in the evening.

[dreamy shadow]

Until they ask you something theoretical that doesn't apply day to day. what is a p value?

[supple fossil]

p value is the power level in statistical analysis

[delicate bane]

thats a good idea.

i also think narrowing your scope would be good. itll save you less trouble in interview prep too.

[supple fossil]

oh crap, p value is significance level, not power whoops

[spark cobalt]

Skyglow graduating to animal emotes

[summer roost]

🤷‍♂️ there's not much you can do about companies asking questions that aren't relevant for the work, but that shouldn't be too common, since that wouldn't be a good use of the interviewers' time.

[dreamy shadow]

Sadly it's fairly common for Data Scientists roles. That question, and a list of others are common but add nothing of value at this point.

[delicate bane]

yep yep yep. i would say its even worse for DS roles, especially at non-tech companies. skyglow, when are we specializing

[summer roost]

why do you think the interviewers are choosing to ask that question?

[dreamy shadow]

Tends to be because they don't know what else to ask.

[delicate bane]

because everyones definition of a data scientist is completely different from company to company

that too

[summer roost]

wouldn't that be a reason to expect different questions from every company, rather than the same one?

[delicate bane]

oh i would never expect them to ask the same one

[summer roost]

oh, I thought you were saying that "what is a p value" was a question everyone asks

[delicate bane]

nope. you may or may not get that curveball depending on the type of hiring manager

[spark cobalt]

I would in general suggest that you write down the questions asked and the responses you gave to the interviewer and look at how you can say things clearer, more concise, and have better clarity in your responses. This goes for both behavioral and technical.

This way, you are conscious of ways to better say things in questions you've never encountered before, and you keep a log of questions that has been asked and increase your arsenal of questions you can anticipate for the roles you're applying to.

While interviewing experience is valuable, you can really extract a lot of value by it by analyzing what went wrong. Some things are out of your control, but the rest is. Was there a point where the mood went completely off, what was the cause of it? Do you think you would have been able to give a better response if you just spent some time to think before answering right away? Things like this

There's also different ways of conveying answers that you can pursue. I personally found drawing pictures/diagrams to be really efficient.

[candid summit]

How's the work environment in Zeeve

[spark cobalt]

Never heard of Zeeve, and generally people aren't too keen with exposing what company they work for. Try Glassdoor.

[dreamy shadow]

Looks like a start up

You can always smell the start up vibes from miles away.

[spark cobalt]

Oh it's blockchain and web3. I don't know anything about that space other than to just stay away lol.

[candid summit]

Why can't I link their website
Anyways, it's a Web 3 start-up which I don't know much of but they have normal Frontend positions as well

[spark cobalt]

Oh it's pretty decently sized for startup. Yeah why not.

[dreamy shadow]

Start up generally just means more work, less benefits.

[near ocean]

Web3 maybe find something more "traditional"

[spark cobalt]

Always something to do in startups, which is fun for some, less fun for others.

[dreamy shadow]

You can look up what stage funding they are at. To see stability.

[delicate bane]

question. do you really learn a lot in startups? ive heard people say both yes and no

[spark cobalt]

It depends on the startup itself I guess.

[delicate bane]

that makes sense

[dreamy shadow]

Imo, you can learn faster. Less bureaucracy in most cases.

Doesn't take weeks to get access to stuff.

[spark cobalt]

At least within my own startup, I get to hop around different projects and have fun trying new things. For one of the projects I'm on for example I'm now the sole developer for it and they're teaching me everything I need to know to completely take over this project.

That demo with Bloomberg went great btw! Ended up not needing the slides at all

[delicate bane]

the cassandra move?

[spark cobalt]

Oh our directors had a feud with it lol. They're like "you shouldn't even know we use MongoDB, the product should just work. Why are they asking for Cassandra???"

I originally was like, yo this is cool, I can refactor the backend cuz it can be built WAY better. But now they have me crammed with like 15 huge features to ship out that it's like bruh fuck me never mind.

[summer roost]

Nice! I meant to ask.

[dreamy shadow]

I'm probably never moving back to a start up. We have "the day before independence day" as a holiday.

[spark cobalt]

Ah our CEO made sure we have a day off every month.

So I think March April we have holidays for nothing.

Most people work anyways

[dreamy shadow]

Which reminds me I need to take a week off of pto before they expire.

[spark cobalt]

I wanna take a week off so bad lol, but that then means the entire project stops for a week

Either way, there's always something to do in startups which make it fun. At least how our thing is set up is every team wants more manpower, so if you want to switch, they're happy to take you in and train you for it.

We had a new grad say "fuck web development, I wanna work on the OS", one week later he's working on the OS.

[dreamy shadow]

So, take the week off anyways. There's no project that's ever 'that' important anyways.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah I'm waiting for when my friends have spring break, and I wanna do a loop to Zion and Grand Canyon for road trip.

[sleek egret]

p value applies day to day at my firm

[sleek egret]

an entire day off a month?!?! wow, your CEO is so generous!

[spark cobalt]

That feels really sarcastic lol. But it's a kind gesture if anything.

[sleek egret]

at least you guys aren't slackers like those people who take 2 days off every week!

[dreamy shadow]

Very rare to apply in most cases

[sleek egret]

here's the thing, you don't hire expensive people for the day to day. you hire them for the exceptional circumstances.

[dreamy shadow]

Idk how many holidays we have, feels like at least 10. And 20 days pto

[sleek egret]

if they can only do the day to day, you can hire much much cheaper people

[spark cobalt]

All of my colleagues typically work anyways, but they tell me to specifically not work on weekends/holidays and spend the time to just learn and do whatever I want.

From my managers to director too

[delicate bane]

if its finance it makes sense. unless rmah is being sarcastic here too lmao

[dreamy shadow]

Rmah is always sarcastic. <insert marvel hulk scene>

[spark cobalt]

The mantra of work 7 hours, and spend the 8th hour figuring out how to make the 7 hours more efficient.

[delicate bane]

man wth you have 20 days pto? rip me

[delicate bane]

thats a good mantra. similar philosophy in the book the one thing

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, and X roll over until new year Q1

The benefits here makes it hard to leave lmao

I'm realizing it needs to be a significant pay jump to be worth.

[delicate bane]

where is my linkedin jobs tab

[spark cobalt]

Rex is getting indoctrinated with the anime emotes

[sleek egret]

Do you feel trapped?

[dreamy shadow]

Uh, how would you define trapped as?

[sleek egret]

btw, I was not being sarcastic about the p-value thing. a lot of our programming revolves around statistics on far less than ideal data sets. and yes, it's finance.

[delicate bane]

yall gonna get them banned in this channel.

[sleek egret]

I was just teasing with the "trapped" thing 🙂

[delicate bane]

called it.

[dreamy shadow]

I just like to move companies after 1 year 2 years

[sleek egret]

even if you're happy?

[dreamy shadow]

Avoids stagnation. "We're working on setting job responsibilities and ways to move up" -said 6 months ago.

[spark cobalt]

I was originally going to leave whatever company I landed first after a year, but tbh I wanna stay here as long as I can.

[sleek egret]

just do other shit. it's not like someone's watching you 24/7

[dreamy shadow]

I mean pay stagnation.

[west badger]

Any suggestions for a laptop in which I can code+game(i cant pay that much as for personal reasons)

[delicate bane]

if i count my internships, im at the 1 year mark. guess i should wait 2 years before making a decision

[spark cobalt]

What's the $ budget?

[west badger]

like under $500 if possible

[sleek egret]

long ago, I was doing a stint at hilton working on their new CRM system. as part of that, I got access to their loyalty program info. IIRC, I saw some suspicious stuff in one account...

[delicate bane]

wilder thats not careers related

[spark cobalt]

[spark cobalt]

Try asking in ot.

[sleek egret]

...so I decided to write a program to find suspicious behavior. a few days later, I had a list of the top 100 abusers. one guy was had used like 30 different corporate loyalty accounts

[west badger]

will u help there or someone else?

[spark cobalt]

Yeah sure

[sleek egret]

turned out, you could just say "hey, I work for XYZ, we have a discount here but I forgot my card" and desk clerks would give you the discount

[near ocean]

Based

[delicate bane]

fraud huh? i think thats a issue across many companies. you could probably get some exp just in that domain and it would carry over to many various roles

[sleek egret]

showed the report to my boss. who showed it to someone in corporate. next thing I knew, I was giving a presentation to some execs

point is, no one asked me to do it. I just thought it would be interesting

[near ocean]

I thought you were all about sticking it to the man

[delicate bane]

lmao same

[dreamy shadow]

Did you get a significant raise for your efforts?

[sleek egret]

why would I wanna do that? I am the man.

[near ocean]

Youre not the man if youre reporting to others lol

[delicate bane]

my bet: no.

[sleek egret]

lol, of course not. nor did I expect one. I just got a pat on the head. I didn't do it for a raise.

[near ocean]

A one time discount for lunch

[smoky quest]

that would fit in as a bullet point in the next promo package, for which you would qualify sooner.
But that wouldn't typically translate in an instant raise

[sleek egret]

oh, I quit soon after. the job was in memphis. and compared to NYC, it was a pit. I got out.

[delicate bane]

ah, i have to fly to nashville for some onsites next week

[sleek egret]

it was my try at living in the midwest for a while. the experiment was a failure, lol

[sleek egret]

nashville is nicer than memphis

[delicate bane]

they were trying to convince me to move there. thats not happening

[dreamy shadow]

Nicer is relative here

[sleek egret]

hey, could be worse. imagine if it was bentonville, arkansas

[delicate bane]

what was bad about it/what factors did you not like

[sleek egret]

memphis is a s**thole. the biggest business in the downtown seemed to be bailbondsmen.

[smoky quest]

shithole*

[delicate bane]

i see

[sleek egret]

I was used to manhattan. I went back.

[dreamy shadow]

Basically violent crime lol

[delicate bane]

manhattan vs memphis sounds like a huge difference lol

[sleek egret]

I guess the bbq was pretty good. but everyone was fat and drove everywhere. I remember when a bunch of us decided to go to lunch at some restaurant just down the street (maybe a five minute walk) from the office. everyone just expected to drive. I mean, come on, it was a nice day and we didn't have to cross any busy streets. jeez.

[frosty cove]

walking in many places in the US is a gamble

[sleek egret]

it was fine

[frosty cove]

i was born in the usa, moved abroad after university and I didn't know what I was missing in terms of walkability/interesting cities to live in

[delicate bane]

bruhhh. im def a fan of walkable cities

[delicate bane]

abroad like europe?

[sleek egret]

I like driving too. but come on, a few hundred feet? what's the point of people piling into cars for that?

[spark cobalt]

Walkable city as in like, you physically cannot walk out due to dangerousness of the neighborhood?

[frosty cove]

ya I was in lisbon for awhile, then canada up until now 🙂

[dreamy shadow]

Just go to Berlin and you'll see a difference.

[sleek egret]

there are almost no dangerous neighborhoods in the US anymore

[spark cobalt]

Or as in everything is walk distance

[toxic escarp]

Can anyone explain to me how to effectively use discord to gain help in programming !! like I have heard a lot that many programmers got benifitted using discord and I have no idea how as I m a noob, pls help

[delicate bane]

whats berlin like

[sleek egret]

crime is almost non-existent now

[frosty cove]

Is it true rents in Berlin are like out of control now

[dreamy shadow]

Generally speaking, distance. But in the US, dodging bullets is needed too.

[delicate bane]

please take a look at #❓｜how-to-get-help

[spark cobalt]

Be a good person. Be likeable. Try contribute where you can.

[sleek egret]

that is a huge huge exaggeration

[dreamy shadow]

Great public transport. You can get everywhere by the trams and walking

[stuck bay]

😨

[toxic escarp]

Thanks Rex and Wilder

[delicate bane]

yeah that sounds nice to have everything close

[sleek egret]

violent crime used to be really bad in the US, like in the 80's and early 90's

[delicate bane]

also please look at #❓｜how-to-get-help

[spark cobalt]

Rmah is ancient

[dreamy shadow]

South of Chicago

[delicate bane]

man imagine decent public transport

[sleek egret]

you mean like NYC? IIRC, something like 70% of all commuter rail traffic in the USA is within 100 miles of NYC

[spark cobalt]

Chicago with 2344 shootings in 2021

[delicate bane]

yeah i heard that about nyc.

[dreamy shadow]

Healthcare, free college, etc.

[spark cobalt]

Imagine just a decent government that isn't shilling for the same 10 people.

[zealous path]

🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

[little abyss]

If recruiters only take 7 secs to check a resume
How are they able to view github projects?

[near ocean]

They dont

[delicate bane]

bruhhh

[little abyss]

So linking my github profile is pointless?

[delicate bane]

my manager just called me and let me know about the company's "restructuring"

fortunately, im not being let go but someone on the team is...

[near ocean]

No, but a recruiter probably doesnt have the tech experience to look at your github projects

[delicate bane]

it really is layoff season huh?

[true harness]

it might be useful in later stages of the process

[little abyss]

So experience is the only thing that matters then
If they don't even look at projects
(It's the only thing that can get you interviews)

[chrome summit]

We have a great transportation system. I only drive on the weekends.

[true harness]

just because they don't actually go to your github to see your projects doesn't mean they don't matter. and of course, education matters also

[sleek egret]

I can neither confirm nor deny my involvement in any project

[true harness]

i don't think he's that old

[spark cobalt]

That's why you have a projects section in your resume describing them.

[smoky quest]

It's about demonstrated skills, whether they come through education, projects or professional experience

The rule of thumb is your resume has 30-45s to convince them to take a second look. So while they won't go check your project, you can highlight the demonstrated skills by these projects as to make them want to check it out

[signal root]

If I look for a job in Japan, would I need to learn some Japanese language variety tech that’s more relevant to the country? I’m figuring out the different keyboards just for typing, but I’m a relatively new app developer, so I don’t know what else programming wise to look up.

[tender abyss]

Have you taken a look at tokyodev & japandev? tokyodev has a forum that might answer your questions about working there

[void cliff]

I regularly review applicant CVs at the startup I work for and I do look at GitHub / blogs / other online presence.

[summer roost]

How much time do you spend reviewing each candidate, on average? How much of that time is spent on the resume, vs on their online presence?

[junior kernel]

ask about questions

[true harness]

how many applicants do you get? and do you look at social media on your first pass through the resumes?

[smoky quest]

how does that relate to this channel?

[west badger]

Should I delete it then?

Because idk if there is a channel or even a server where I can ask this

[smoky quest]

One of the off-topic channel would be more appropriate

[summer roost]

Yes.

[west badger]

Alright and just lmk if there is a server for this too

[raw nest]

they do look at projects though, Most of rhe internship i have been part of asked for Projects , and the drive/github link for it

But i think they value projects that look unique more than any ordinary project found on the internet.

[proven crest]

For all employed junior developers, what projects did you have on your portfolio when you got your first job?

[smoky quest]

I see a lot of projects related to school

[proven crest]

related to school?

[smoky quest]

yes, like related to projects done during school

[proven crest]

I see, I've not studied programming in school

[smoky quest]

so let's take a step back. What problem are you trying to solve here?

[proven crest]

Just wondering if I'll actually be able to find junior employment

I'm just finishing a bootcamp now though where we learned web dev with html,css,js and worked with sql and python.

So I have a portfolio website, a JS crud web app, a JS / express quote generator (generates a random quote taken live from 4chan based on selection of a board(only sfw boards lol)) and a tool for creating and viewing databases on python using a menu I created and sqllite.

I hear conflicting things, some say you need to be a top teir dev already to find any job as competition is so high, others say that you just need to show that you are capable of the basics and are hard working and willing to learn..

[smoky quest]

The main thing is that you are about to have a lot of competition.
Each job ad will have thousands of applicants, where 99% have a degree, projects and internships. So what's your plan to stand out and not stay at the bottom of the pile?
I see a few so-called "capstone" projects in the context of bootcamps people, which aim at demonstrating your skills. This is not a bad idea, but the skills demonstrated will have to be more advanced than what you have listed to stand out

[proven crest]

ugh disappointing. I have a degree, but in an unrelated field. My plan was to get a junior job of any kind and stay there for a 6 months or a year regardless of pay so that I'd have that under my belt as experience to apply to better positions.

I also have other experience, I've worked as a successful senior accounts manager in the past, not sure how relevant that would be either though

[spark cobalt]

Are you able to switch to engineering in your current company?

[smoky quest]

not sure why that would be disappointing.

However you need to look at it as a cost or distance function. The more relevant to the job, the more useful and leverage it can provide. For instance a math degree will be a lot more relevant than a history of pre-american civilizations degree

[spark cobalt]

You'll probably take a pay cut, but if you've had success in companies you've been in, they might be more willing to switch you over

[proven crest]

No, I left to pursue programming full time around 5 months ago

[spark cobalt]

Have you at least tried reaching back to them? If you've built great relationships with your ex colleagues, you should at least attempt to leverage them.

[proven crest]

Disappointing in the fact that although I felt i was nearing the goalpost I might still be half way there. If each job has thousands of applicants and 99% of them have studied the field for 4 years that puts me at a major disadvantage and a 3 year exp deficit. Savings dont last forever. My degree was in photography, so maybe relevant in front end as I am good with design, but I really don't enjoy front end, I'd much rather be backend.

[spark cobalt]

Unfortunately being 'good enough' isn't good enough, which is one of the major selling points for bootcamps.

[smoky quest]

yeah, I empathize.

but that's a good assessment

[spark cobalt]

I'd try to leverage your professional connections. People that can actually account for your capabilities.

[proven crest]

I still chat to some, but I really dont think that would be an option. The hire all their software people internationally for reduced cost and theyre all very experienced. I don't think theyd take a junior on. I just can't see it

[spark cobalt]

There's no harm in asking is the point. They might know someone that's hiring and can land you at least a referral.

[proven crest]

For communication, interpersonal, leadership, sales skills i have great references. For all else not really

[spark cobalt]

Idk about sales, but all else are used daily as a developer.

Don't undercut what you were able to build thus far.

[proven crest]

Thats a good idea, especially with them possibly knowing other positions, I'll reach out to my old boss and see if he can put out any feelers or shoot me a shot lol. Its a SaaS company so he'll have lots of tech contacts

[spark cobalt]

A track record of success in your career is something that most college grads can't boast. Use it to your advantage.

[proven crest]

Right, I've also heard that collage grads usually dont have much coding exp either, and looking at grad projects I would say I am a better coder (from what I saw at least) which is why I thought I was a lot closer.

[harsh river]

it depends on their college

[spark cobalt]

I'm self taught, and uhh there's a looot of classes in college that I really feel would help me a load in work.

I end up having to still study things I missed out from college.

[smoky quest]

note also that coding is seen as a low level skill. That's the easy part that anyone can get

[harsh river]

~~like wiping your butt ~~

[spark cobalt]

taking showers

[proven crest]

Right, I'm sure MIT grads are more skilled and have better portfolios, but thats not going to account for the majority. Also I'm based in the UK so I think competition is far lower than the US.

[proven crest]

Whats the mid/high level skills? Whats more important than coding to be a programmer?

[harsh river]

yeah i mean honestly i've seen code from masters / PHD's at my college and i have better coding skills than them

however i can't understand what their code does at all cuz it has something to do with weird brain spaghetti they only understand so /shrug

[proven crest]

Well that sounds like its either indicative of very good, concise code or bad code lol. Also if they're studying a PHD I'd assume they are wanting to go into a very specified field (which sounds right if the code was illegible to you) and I wouldnt consider than competition on a job market. I cant imagine someone would spend hundreds of thousands on a PHD to be a junior developer lol

[harsh river]

it just means their fields are often very niche stuff and code is just essentially a minimal tool into what they do

thats with them even holding extra degrees in CS or SE

[proven crest]

Right, but thats not competition to me, its like a chef and a bar man might work at the same restaurant but they aren't job competition

[harsh river]

it would be competition because with just a master or PHD they will have an edge over just a bachelors

people at a masters or PHD's level will have been in academics enough so that they make connections and leverage them into getting a job easier over people with much more experience

[proven crest]

it wouldn't be competition because theyre going for completely different jobs, and yeah theyd probably have connections

[harsh river]

not really, i've seen those same people aim for CS / SE jobs and get them

[spark cobalt]

Most of the engineers at my company are MS/PhD level.

Like probably 5-7% are Bachelor's.

[proven crest]

So most junior developers at your company have 10-12 years of higher education?

[spark cobalt]

We don't have many junior developers here to begin with ngl.

[proven crest]

right, thats my point though

[spark cobalt]

Most people here got their Masters or PhD before they started working.

I don't know anyone that got their grad school education during their career... At least yet.

I mean I'm in US, might be completely different in UK.

[proven crest]

I think it would be plausible to get a job at your company after 5-7 years or so of experience though
At least I'd assume

[harsh river]

i would think MS / PHD's would get junior roles much easier and climb up the ladder much easier than someone just starting

which is what i've seen btw^

[spark cobalt]

I got in with high school degree 0 YOE so not necessarily. Though the role I applied for was MS 1 YOE

[proven crest]

I think a better analogy would be if you wanted to work in sales if you had a masters and phd you could probably get a job at berkshire or wallstreet, but if not you could certainly get a job at a smaller company

[smoky quest]

It's all about solving problems.
Coding is like knowing how to use a screw driver. That's cool but not the differentiator. The main part is the ability to use that screw driver to fix cars, build houses or a space rocket

[proven crest]

I dont think comparing coding to using a screwdriver is remotely accurate. coding is the building of the house, using a screwdriver is being able to type.

[spark cobalt]

Coding is a tool to build the house, just how a screwdriver is. There's much more than just code that goes into creating and deploying a reliable website in your case.

[smoky quest]

No. Able to type is being able to hold the screw driver

Building a house involves so much more. You have to make plans, check for stability, pick materials, etc.

[spark cobalt]

Exactly how making an application works 🙂

[proven crest]

Isnt that the same for code? To be able to code, you cant jump in blind, you need plan what you want to create, understand the logic and break it down, debug, deploy

[smoky quest]

It's also why focusing on coding only can sometimes be used in condescending terms such as "pissing code" or "code monkey"

[spark cobalt]

Damn haven't heard pissing code before.

[proven crest]

So what would you say is important thats separate to coding?

[spark cobalt]

It separates a junior and a senior dev.

[proven crest]

For a junior dev, as thats what I'm going for

[spark cobalt]

Sure, but junior developers that do know of these higher level things will generally be able to contribute more than others.

[proven crest]

What are the higher level things?

[spark cobalt]

Things like design

[proven crest]

Luckily I'm good at that, that was a big part of my degree

[spark cobalt]

Not UI design...

[void cliff]

Between 1 and 5 minutes per candidate depending on whether I am actively looking for someone with those skills. I try to take the time to look harder at any CV from a non-traditional background. In the local marked a traditional background would be graduating directly from a local software engineering school to take on purely software development jobs.

[smoky quest]

the more abstract thinking skills.
When faced with a problem, the typical college educated engineer will try to generalize it and abstract the problem so they can reason about it and solve the root cause. Self-taught would typically jump to whatever library they find on google first.
Note that it's a caricature and exaggerated, but that is not too far from what happens...

[void cliff]

I get between 5 and 10 spontaneous applications per month, dozens per announcement if I am actively recruiting. I take a quick look at linked social media on the first pass unless the CV obviously does not match the role I am recruiting for.

[proven crest]

Interesting

[smoky quest]

abstract thinking can be your secret weapons.
If you think through a problem, you can come up with solutions and be trusted.
If you jump to specific random tools you find on google, your manager will be worried about what kind of crazy work around you will come up with. Because that also means something more expensive, something that may not resolve the problem and something that may be super convoluted. So in short, something that will need baby sitting and rewritten

[proven crest]

I think by default I'm pretty good at this, I dont know if thats due to college education in general or being in a creative subject or a drive to be actually proficient in coding but I always tend to break problems down to find a solution as opposed to finding a tool for it, with exceptions being things where there are tools specifically for that, for example pandas for working with excel docs

[stone owl]

Good Evening folks, what would you recommend for a new grad to spend his time on while applying to positions in this market? I realize the market is shit but I also realize that crying won't help the situation

[smoky quest]

It mostly comes down to practice and being open minded. College will force you to go back to formulas, math and formulate and restate problems for 3-4 years.
Bootcamps will force you to focus on specific technologies for a few weeks/months and the folks going there will typically tend to avoid more math/abstract topics.

But nothing stops you from working on analytical skills or to pick them up

[smoky quest]

• Make sure your resume is great
• Make sure you have great projects on your resume
• Practice interviews and leetcode (a few weeks prior to interviews is enough)

[dawn ruin]

How good do you have to be in maths?

[proven crest]

Thats a pretty good analysis of bootcamps from my exp tbh. I guess I'm just lucky that I'm quite analytical in nature

[smoky quest]

like that: |-----|

[dawn ruin]

Is that alot or no...?

[smoky quest]

it's all relative.
In absolute, that that much

[dawn ruin]

You sound like a philosopher

[smoky quest]

it's also a very difficult question to answer.
What I can say is that it math in college is a lot more fun and interesting as it's more applicable. It has nothing to do with the math in high school and that's not something to worry about

[smoky quest]

my advice to you would be to not be afraid to pick up a textbook or two after your bootcamp. That can make a huge difference.

[smoky quest]

If it helps, while in HS they force you to learn some properties you don't care about, in college, they will teach you the math so you can build and understand encryption or how to compress images and sound. Or how to make QR codes or CDROM that are resistant to scratches. Lot's of cool stuff

[dawn ruin]

Good to know cuz I suck at calc

[proven crest]

I wanted to brush up on my math skills as I haven't used them in years so I used Khan Academy, its fantastic. I couldn't recommend it enough, if you're worried about your math abilities I'd go there to gain some confidence.

[smoky quest]

also a good heuristic is that if a school accepts you, it means they believe you will have no problem graduating 😉

[dawn ruin]

I sure hope they do accept me

[smoky quest]

good luck!

[dawn ruin]

So as I've heard. I'll give it a shot sometime 👍

[proven crest]

Best advice for success is start today, even if its for 20 mins. Then do 20 mins every day. Consistency is the building block for success. It's more important than large intervals whenever you remember because you'll lose focus. Maybe next week you can do 25 mins a day? Maybe 30 mins the week after?

[urban thorn]

hey guys! I've just had a call with a recruiter, she galloped through some surface technical questions in addition to the basic employment ones, and told me that I'll have a technical interview with a developer on the next week. I have classes tomorrow, but thursday to sunday there are local holidays here, so I have plenty of time to prepare. It's my very first time of getting this far in terms of getting a developer job, so I'm really lost in what I should do get confidently prepared

[dawn ruin]

Yeah I need to balance programming with Maths. Problem is I get frustrated when I get the answers wrong..

[urban thorn]

just for the picture, I struggled to answer which python types are immutable, but explained the difference between an iterator and a generator

[proven crest]

Mistakes are how you learn, being frustrated with mistakes is normal, but it should drive you to understand why you made the mistake so its not repeated. If it drives you to move away from it thats indicative of a larger problem.

Like I said, you don't need to be spending hours on math and balance that with hours of programming. You just need to be focused and consistent. Start with 20 mins a day. If you do that you'll learn a lot more than just math.

As an example, when I was a kid I used to skateboard. I'd spend hours skating and messing around with with mates but could barely do an ollie. I started to spend 30 mins a day focused on a particular trick until I got it down, by the end of the summer holidays I could do pop shuvs, kickflips, heel flips, 180s, probably more but the most important thing I learnt was the importance of consistency and focus.

[dawn ruin]

Thanks I'll try your method

[near remnant]

Any advice for anxiety before interview? No matter how much I practice or relax, before interviews I sweat like a horse and my heart pumps hard as hell...

[near ocean]

Stuff like that only goes away with exposure really
The more you do them the more you learn to relax in them
I would suggest being early if in person, grab a warm tea from a coffee place beforehand

[near remnant]

It will be a video interview but I will make a tea, good idea

[near ocean]

Theres not really much more to do for video interviews sadly, dont pace around the room, setup your laptop beforehand, test your mic, video, etc

[inland mulch]

50+

[near remnant]

jesus christ. i had so many good interviews and i received two offers but today. today I had the worst interview ever.
they asked questions like: "difference between functional and oop language?" "what would you be as a python object?" "difference between compiler and interpreter? "is python a language like C?" and questions like these...I was like what the hell?

i didn't cram the answers for all these, but I still answered because I know the answers but of course not in very highly detailed version

[dark arrow]

the rest are alright i guess but wtf is that second one lmao

[near remnant]

yeah, i mean. i didn't prepare for these questions tho, I mainly focus on SQL/Python/Docker/Linux/Flask questions not questions like these...so I feel like I'm an idiot but whatever I guess

[sleek egret]

why would you have to "cram" for those questions?

why would have to prep? just answer them. problem solved.

[near ocean]

They're just general tech trivia questions, nothing too wild

[sleek egret]

those are "softball" questions. they ask those because they want to go easy on you.

[near remnant]

yeah and I answered these questions of course but not as much in detail as I would if I had prepared for them

if you know what I mean

[sleek egret]

not really

[near remnant]

so like, I answered these questions with a couple of sentences but if I had prepared for them beforehand I could've been talking about these questions for ages, you know.

ah whatever I guess. it just felt like the interviewer got these questions from a website

i probably overthink this as well as everything else

[west badger]

guys i need suggestions for where should i prepare for sat,act and toefl

[true harness]

khan academy

[chrome summit]

Short and sweet is better than war and peace

[west badger]

what language is that

[chrome summit]

Attack main points to show understanding

[near remnant]

yeah probably...ah man, i feel like even tho I'm grinding so many things I will never feel fully prepared.
on the other hand tho, after every interview, I feel better because I know what plus I should focus on

[chrome summit]

Kaplan is popular for SAT/ACT. I’ve used the Manhattan Review for GMAT but they also have the other books. Princeton Review also popular. @west badger

[west badger]

so you wanna say kaplan right?

[true harness]

english?

[chrome summit]

I liked Manhattan Review more based on gmat but Kaplan tends to do well on everything

[true harness]

barrons is better

[west badger]

you guys are confusing me

[chrome summit]

There’s a lot of views on it. Everyone will have their own opinions. You won’t really get common responses on everyone agreeing one is better than the other.

[sleek egret]

what is confuzzeling you?

[true harness]

so this was worse than the other one where they were laughing and making fun of you?

[west badger]

like which one should i choose or should i just get some study materials
@sleek egret

[near remnant]

nah

[sleek egret]

the one that appeals most to you, I guess

[true harness]

those are study materials

[quasi axle]

I WISH more interviews had questions like this rather than “invert a binary tree”

[west badger]

i meant study materials like books
@true harness

[quasi axle]

Asking actually relevant questions

[near remnant]

i never had an "invert a binary tree" question before
im from Europe btw

on the other hand, had leetcode questions which was fun cuz i like em

[true harness]

those are books

[quasi axle]

That’s the state of US tech interviews rn. Google rejected the creator of homebrew (which probably 90+% of googlers use) because he couldn’t invert a binary tree

[sleek egret]

most people are the exact reverse of you

[west badger]

what do you mean?
they are live courses

[true harness]

if you had done a simple google search, you would find that you are wrong

[west badger]

i did lemme show you ss

[near remnant]

i had two leetcode questions a fizzbuzz and another medium question, solved both of them and went to the next round, unfortunately didn't got an offer bcus they wanted a medior at least not a junior

[quasi axle]

Fizzbuzz is leetcode? 🤨

[west badger]

@true harness

[sleek egret]

many of those places offer both help texts and courses and even tutoring

[near remnant]

idk bro, probably not, but the hiring manager told me many juniors fail fizzbuzz lmao

[true harness]

yeah, but no one actually does those, right?

[sleek egret]

millions of people do them

[west badger]

i cant find the books on Kalpan

[true harness]

oh well. just get the books. don't buy the courses

[west badger]

from whereee

[quasi axle]

Fizzbuzz is to normal leetcode problems what kindergarten is to a PhD

[near remnant]

@quasi axle i answered the questions but since i didn't prepare for questions like these, my answers were only 1-2 sentences.
anyways, fuck it bro i dont care

life as a laid off junior

[sleek egret]

I flunked kindergarten

[quasi axle]

I’d move to the EU then with those questions if the pay wasn’t so low

[true harness]

uh, amazon? a library?

[west badger]

like just search for act prep books?

[true harness]

i don't know why you're as worried as you are. you're getting multiple interviews a week

[near remnant]

EU is a different bread.
I had to solve 6 take home assigments for an ML position

[true harness]

yes. search for kaplan or barrons or whatever brand you want. make sure it includes practice tests

[west badger]

alright lemme find and then imma ping you to show

[near remnant]

I'm not worried I'm just stressed as hell, because I don't know what to do.
but I feel like the best thing would be to just focusing on interview prep and grinding interview questions since I already get interviews, so no point of making new projects.

[sleek egret]

what's the point of anything really?

[near remnant]

true

[west badger]

@true harness

[true harness]

idk about that set specifically ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[chrome summit]

Should be a bunch on Amazon

[true harness]

@velvet creek (sorry)

<@&831776746206265384> multiple channels also

[true turtle]

!cban 955237262097018890 crypto scam

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @wise aurora permanently.

[near remnant]

rip

[sleek egret]

I'm sure there are tons of free SAT prep courses online

[true harness]

like khan academy

[prisma moth]

Heyy, hi everyone! I’m looking for an english certification that helps me to apply to a master degree in US or EU (i didn’t decide it yet). Does anyone have experience in this field or recommend any particular one? I see some universities and job offers request the IELTS, TOELF or even the Duolingo English certification.

[pine sleet]

I have a massive sat prep book just sitting here

It's like a thousand pages

Never used it, didn't find it of much help TBH
Take that how you will

[zealous path]

I have a few friends who took the IELTS. But that just might be a preferred cert here in the U.K.

[near ocean]

I had to do IELTS for the UK, was not fun

[prisma moth]

Thanks!

[prisma moth]

Why? So hard?

[near ocean]

no, just inconvenient, it took hours, there were 4 parts and also I had to travel to another city to take the exam

[zealous path]

OOF

When you’re watching a company presentation and they’re now considering using ChatGPT…

[prisma moth]

I might have the same problem... but I think it'd be the same with any cert I decide to get.

[near ocean]

Lmao, for what though?

I think my peeps used it a couple times to come up with soft skill interview questions
The type that are "tell me about a time you resolved a conflict"

[zealous path]

So it was to the end of the presentation and they did a whole thing of “if you want to explain X to a non technical person, ChatGTP might potentially be able to write the script for you”

Which honestly I have less gripe about.
I can see ChatGPT with writing things, especially if you’re already an expert in the field and just need to be able to dumb it down (cause obviously you’ll be able to spot the mistakes) but the other way around doesn’t exactly work now does it?

[dreamy shadow]

Using ChatGPT is letting the communist win just a waste of money imo. Learning to explain things is a key skill in companies, only real way is through practice.

[sleek egret]

we could replace the explainers with chatgpt

[near ocean]

Chatgpt has no idea what to explain

[sleek egret]

knowing nothing is the first sign of true wisdom

[buoyant seal]

if IELTS, it has specifically Academic version for applying to universities. Find out which one specifically is asked
I passed General version of IELTS before

[dreamy shadow]

My manager tried to low key ask me what my career plans were after my masters today (I haven't even started the program yet). They even tried the "off the record" tactic and used themselves as an example "looking for stability with a child". I already learned my lesson on that "off the record" bs while working retail during University.

[sleek egret]

You can't trust The Man

[vapid jay]

Lol no, college prep is pay to win, a large percentage of people at ivies and similarly ranked universities use their programs

In addition a lot of people who get into Ivies had parents that groomed them to do large amounts of extracurriculars that were purposely designed to look good to admission committees

[sleek egret]

lots of people who fail to get into ivies also pay to win but don't

so... how does that work then?

[vapid jay]

you can still be stupid or lazy even with affluent parents

[sleek egret]

sure, but to ensure a seat at an ivy if you're academically... challenged... is about $20mil to $30mil. you literally have to fund a building to skate your kid in if he doesn't make the cut

that ain't chump change

[vapid jay]

Professional test prep, having parents that can pay for you to not work and thus grind extra curriculars and focus on academics, so on

[dreamy shadow]

Or a very generous donation to the school.

[vapid jay]

Donations are probably the least common way to get a leg up

[sleek egret]

Literally millions of kids do professional test prep

[vapid jay]

Yes, but the vast majority don't.

[dreamy shadow]

Testing prep is expensive af

[sleek egret]

about 15,000 get into ivies each year. that's out of around 1.5 mil total new university students each year

[prisma moth]

Thanks! Did you apply to any university after that?

[sleek egret]

actually, the majority of college bound students do some form of test prep

[vapid jay]

Post proof

[dreamy shadow]

"Everyone in the workplace looks out for only themselves" -Something Something

[sleek egret]

a single test prep outfit reported in 2017 that 3.7 mil student used their courses since 2015 (that's 1.3 mil each year). https://blog.khanacademy.org/studying-for-the-sat-for-20-hours-on-khan-academy/

that's ONE prep company

there's tons of free SAT prep courses available. lots of cheap paid ones. expensive paid ones. etc. it's just stupid not to prep for it

and it's literally been this way for almost a half century. none of this shit is new.

remember, the audience for the SAT is self-selective. only kids who are applying to university take it. they all know it's important.

the % of kids taking the SAT who don't care is probably in the low single digit %'s (my speculation)

and finally, I don't understand this american obsession with innate inborn talent. we should select for hard work and achievement, not potential.

[vapid jay]

Every kid in my state is forced to take the SAT but they do not provide free test prep

[sleek egret]

why would every kid take the SAT when only 40% even go to university? what state?

[vapid jay]

Hard work and achievement are the direct result of your parents being affluent enough to afford you the time and a stable environment to spend studying to hopefully get into college

[dreamy shadow]

It's normally state mandate to have all students take one ACT/SAT.

[buoyant seal]

no no. I was taking General version IELTS. i was taking it for the purpose of immigration. Immigration asks usually General version. University for Academic verison

[sleek egret]

no. the SAT is a private test run by a private company. it is not normal.

[dreamy shadow]

e.g. My state provides all students one free ACT.

[dreamy shadow]

Normal or not, it's about 7* 16 states (16 is for ACT)

[vapid jay]

yes sirs all people working horrible retail jobs and living paycheck to paycheck in a bad living situation need to do is work hard

[sleek egret]

that would make it "not normal". and IMO, it's silly.

[prisma moth]

Good to know! What country is requesting IELTS?

[buoyant seal]

Canada asks for internal language exam or IELTS generic version🙂

[vapid jay]

I don't think that's what rmah is saying but the whole standardized exam and university personality quizzes are basically selecting for people who are much more affluent than they seem

[sleek egret]

there are no "personality quizzes" for university

[dreamy shadow]

Living pay check to pay check is different, as even middle class/upper middle does this. But retail, sure I believe majority didn't work hard enough or didn't choose STEM.

[vapid jay]

On paper your parents may be poor but ultimately there are differing levels
For instance my grandparents were college educated and not poor so my parents being poor was not truly indicative of my living situation, so I had a massive advantage in college admissions
For selective university admissions there are serious benefits to extracurriculars, being able to write essays that home in on what the admissions officers want (i.e. diversity, first gen, etc...)
Same for FAFSA. It is not reality. Just because your parents make 70k/y does not mean you should have an EFC of 20k/year. It's preposterous.
The FAFSA only benefits the uber poor in it's current state.

Similarly university admissions primarily benefit those in poverty and those who are affluent, and especially those who can appear poor but in reality have a source of wealth coming from someone other than their parents. For instance wealthy grandparents, poor parents is the meta for the fafsa.

[sleek egret]

That's actually a myth. the median net worth of an american household is around $122k and the mean is $749k

[vapid jay]

Living paycheck to paycheck is certainly not a myth lol

[sleek egret]

the whole "most people have only $500 saved" thing is from a survey asking specifically about "savings accounts"

[dreamy shadow]

Mean is worthless, median net worth of 122k is very low.

[sleek egret]

no, I mean the idea that most americans (as in > 50%) do is a myth

[vapid jay]

Yes which means they'd likely need to dip into a 401k or ira or home equity which is horrible to do, that is not liquid

[sleek egret]

it's a lot more than $500 🙂

[vapid jay]

Having paid your mortgage for a few years does not mean you are not in a very precarious financial situation

[prisma moth]

Cool! I'm going to check out Canadian universities haha

[sleek egret]

best of luck!

[near ocean]

What even is the topic, how standardized tests are bad? Or is this a rant on non career stuff

[sleek egret]

they are not bad. standardized tests are the primary means for those from disadvantaged backgrounds to get into good universities

because they can make up for poor HS educations that teach little.

[buoyant seal]

leetcoding is bad 😁

[vapid jay]

fr though leetcoding is bad if you can't already get interviews

[sleek egret]

hah, who was it earlier who was complaining that his interviewer was NOT asking leetcode questions? and how he didn't prep for general questions like "why do you like python?" and "what's the diff between OOP and functional programming?"?

[vapid jay]

I did so much leetcode prep then a few interviews didn't ask them at all

[buoyant seal]

dos

[sleek egret]

that guy wanted leetcode questions, lol

[near ocean]

What were you asked instead?

[sleek egret]

takes all kinds, I guess

[buoyant seal]

Refactoring coding interview tests for the win 😁
Or free for all questioning is kind of fun too. Never really complained about them

[sleek egret]

the problem with recruiting processes is that no matter what you do, large % of the population will complain about how it's completely unfair.

[vapid jay]

Parse files, how to do tests, one about binary search but not phrased as lc, ones that steered you towards pointing out version control, behavioral

[sleek egret]

it's sorta annoying when you're on the other side

[near ocean]

That sounds pretty cool

[vapid jay]

It was pretty chill and I think they mostly just wanted a culture fit. They also specifically said they value wlb and set the expectation that I'd only be working 8 hours a day 5 days a week.

I also got hired only two years into my degree and it's 80% remote so I'm happy

On the other hand I could've gotten more compensation from a company that does lc

[near ocean]

Sounds like a sweet deal nonetheless

[vapid jay]

But if that means 5 days a week in office or even 3-4 or above a 40 hour work week, I wouldn't accept it.

[near ocean]

You'd probably be fired before that anyway

[sleek egret]

lol

[vapid jay]

wdym

[near ocean]

Its the new thing to have massive layoffs, have you heard?

[vapid jay]

I wonder if your performance actually protects you from layoffs or if it's entirely based on group and seniority

[sleek egret]

remotes get the axe first

not because they're remote, per se. but simply because they have more tenuous personal connections

[vapid jay]

I have heard that it's primarily about removing seniors and specific groups

I'm happy to get axed as remote first in exchange for not being a wageslave commuter drone

[near ocean]

Looking at linkedin and the heads of depts with 15YOE getting laid off with a simple email... I think its not performance

[sleek egret]

and thus less political weight. I'm speaking in generalities, of course

[vapid jay]

I also don't want to primarily build up relationships with people who think 5 days a week in office is acceptable because they'll work places I don't want to be

[sleek egret]

suit yourself

[dreamy shadow]

I feel like those are outliers, hence why they made it on the news.

I recall some companies just cut the bottom 10%, or based on highest wages.

[near ocean]

Think of all the 💸💸💸 you could be making

[vapid jay]

Yeah with no time to spend it

[sleek egret]

Yes, that happens as well. but it'll be the remote senior staff that gets the axe first 🙂

[near ocean]

You can spend later in life

[dreamy shadow]

Not senior staff yet

[sleek egret]

the key is to be senior enough that it's you who make the decisions on who to cut

[dreamy shadow]

HR's ML model that doesn't care

[near ocean]

There's always someone on top of you

[sleek egret]

no there's not

[near ocean]

There is in real life

[glad pelican]

Hy

[sleek egret]

be the guy who tells HR how to shape their model

[dreamy shadow]

The joke there is the guy who wrote the model gets cut.

[sleek egret]

I mean in real life

[vapid jay]

Just inherit a house or you're a mortgage slave

[sleek egret]

it's like you people don't know what the word "slave" means

[vapid jay]

mortgage serf*

[sleek egret]

you're allowed to move if you have a mortgage. thus, not a serf (as you're not legally tied to the land)

[near ocean]

Nobody said life would be easy, now get back to work

[true harness]

¯_(ツ)_/¯. it's pay to get an advantage, which is most things. also the SAT prep camp things are kinda dubious value, it's not like they're doing anything you can't do yourself

[pine sleet]

I found that the prep camps at least gave me motivation

since I have some problems with that lol

they also had a lot of practice mini-tests and full length tests I couldn't find online

[true harness]

I just had 2 used books from my brother

[true harness]

rmah doesn't work, people work for him. he's the man

[pine sleet]

unfortunately I am the eldest

[near ocean]

He doesnt work the same way some "managers" dont work or is he actually owner of a company

[true harness]

idk actually. he works in some fintech firm I think

[near ocean]

Lmao, so the first one

[true harness]

well then you'll have gotten new books :P

[pine sleet]

waste of money tbh

[true harness]

for the sat, Khan academy is really good. it has tons of practice tests. books also have lots of practice tests

[pine sleet]

The practice tests in my book were the same ones on khan academy

and I did all the ones on khan academy 🙁

[true harness]

lul, scammed

[pine sleet]

fr

Collegeboard itself is a massive scam

[true harness]

that's why you should take the act 😤

[zealous topaz]

if I want to explore options but am not available to work, how do I set up linkedin? I set it as "Flexible, I'm casually browsing", but is this good?

[peak torrent]

any course/book for better understanding in data structures?

https://tenor.com/view/thumbs-up-double-thumbs-up-like-agreed-yup-gif-11663223

[white relic]

What does it mean to explore options if you're not available to work?

Sounds a bit like "I want recruiters to contact me so I can get halfway through the process and then ghost"

[near ocean]

I mean, recruiters do that all the time, whats wrong with seeing what the current market is like?

[lethal lava]

Do twins happen when having sex after conceiving a sperm beforehand or are twins conceived at the same time

[deft herald]

off topic yo

[deft herald]

but if you're serious about the question, ping me in one of the OT channels and we can chat

[lethal lava]

Ey man I gotta know

[balmy mural]

It's good to occasionally apply around, even if you don't plan on taking any offers. It gives you an idea of what your value is to other companies and if your current salary reflects your worth

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @supple fossil until <t:1677009526:f> (10 minutes) (reason: mentions rule: sent 6 mentions in 10s).

The <@&831776746206265384> have been alerted for review.

[ivory sluice]

!unmute 443103992449335306

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: pardoned infraction mute for @supple fossil.

[supple fossil]

ahhh I got the job offer @summer roost

[white relic]

I think that was good news - didn't get to read it fully, but if so, congratulations @supple fossil !

[ivory sluice]

sorry, try pinging just 3 users in 2 separate messages lol

[supple fossil]

thank you for the advice yesterday. I'm self conscious. i dont remember who to tag anymore lol, was looking up the list

[ivory sluice]

@godlygeek @Wilder @Rex☕ @Mr. Katj9 @rmah @trentj haha

congrats though, that is awesome news. when do you start?

[supple fossil]

13th of March. I had been approved for a mortgage and being let go from my current job, put that at risk. I was the main technical person, and being smeared/gaslit. It feels good being validated by people with experience.

[ivory sluice]

hell yeah

[supple fossil]

@spark cobalt @leaden jasper @delicate bane

@sleek egret

[delicate bane]

hey thats great! congrats!

[supple fossil]

At the end of the day yes, i could have been more professional and self confident, but I guess sometimes it's ok to be a nervous wreck who over explains

[true harness]

i mean... even though it worked this time..

[supple fossil]

well yeah

[versed island]

Can you work in development without a degree from a university?

[peak torrent]

yeah

[peak halo]

yes, but if you're a young person without professional experience, a degree is your best option. see also this: #career-advice message

[sleek egret]

Congrats on the job offer!

[graceful wagon]

Anyone ever negotiated an offer 2 times

Didn't realize they wanted EST hours and kind of want to ask for more again lol

Very bad look?

[summer roost]

Should you already have known they wanted EST hours before the first negotiation?

[graceful wagon]

I don't think it was explicitly stated, but I should have clarified before asking. New to the industry and didn't think mismatching PST and EST would ever be an issue lol

Since we do it on my current team regularly

[summer roost]

If they told you that but you missed it, then yes, it's a bad look to renegotiate based on something you missed. If they dropped that on you after the original negotiation, then they're asking for different terms than you thought you were agreeing to, through no fault of you own, and it's reasonable to reopen the conversation - but they'll probably be annoyed by that.

[delicate bane]

time zones is def something to check with any remote positions imo

[dreamy shadow]

Time to be a morning person lol

[graceful wagon]

Just checked the original document sent to me, and the EST hours are not included in the job description. I still think there is an argument to be had that I should've asked about it prior to attempting to negotiate, but at the very least I wouldn't appear to be lying about my intentions considering my reaction when I was told

[summer roost]

Sure, but it's also something the company should clarify when making an offer.

[dreamy shadow]

Generally it shows up in meeting invites or based on the original job description/location...

[summer roost]

I'd say both parties dropped the ball on that.

[graceful wagon]

In that case... suck it up, or think it will be likely safe for my reputation to ask for another 4.5%?

[dreamy shadow]

IMO, it's way too late.

[summer roost]

I think that sounds like a big percentage increase for a relatively small miscommunication.

You would probably have an easier time negotiating different hours than more money. Starting availability at 10 or 11 EST, let's say, if they expected you to be available at 9

[graceful wagon]

Lack of wiggle room on starting hours has been clarified

[delicate bane]

also yes. good heuristic is usually that company hours are based on wherever their headquarters is located (obv this is not accounting for local offices and whatnot)

[dreamy shadow]

Me who starts at 9 am even though company starts at 8am

[delicate bane]

are you my twin

[summer roost]

Well, if it's 4.5% more or you'll walk away, tell them so. If it's 4.5% more or you'll accept the job but be less happy, I'd instead suck it up, take the rate you already negotiated, make it clear to the company that you didn't realize that they were expecting such early mornings from you, and say that more flexibility on hours is a priority for you the next time your compensation is up for review (year end eval, probably)

It's certainly reasonable to tell the recruiter that you're working with that you feel blindsided by being told the inflexible hours you're expected to work only after you'd considered and negotiated the offer.

[river coral]

Are there any online cheap Masters programs for developers? (That will teach Python, JavaScript etc.) and not Computer Sciences. CS is a whole different ballgame and not necessary to become a developer. I know I can learn more myself but just looking for this to get a computer-related degree to my name as it is a requirement for most jobs.

[smoky quest]

masters have the most value when they are used in the context of CS.
Focusing on "developing" is like focusing on using a screw driver. That's a low level skill

[delicate bane]

maybe you are looking for a bootcamp instead

[river coral]

Most jobs I have seen have the requirement 'A degree in CS or related field'. So I'm trying to go for that related field. With no tech background, doing a CS degree won't be too easy for me.

[smoky quest]

A CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities.
Because it's the most related to the field, it also makes it the easiest one to get in. The less related to the field your degree, the even more difficult it will be

And note that if there were shortcuts, everyone would be taking them 😉

[sleek egret]

everyone doing a CS degree has "no tech background"

[graceful wagon]

People don't generally go into CS degrees with a tech background though, unless you consider me as a teenager spending all my days gaming on a computer a "tech background"

[sleek egret]

You are expected to learn programming languages (mostly) on your own

after all, it's so easy even little kids can do it.

[delicate bane]

me as a teenager spending all my days gaming on a computer a "tech background"
i died a little 💀

[sleek egret]

lol

[graceful wagon]

I kind of understand what they were saying, like just being tech savvy prior to joining the field, but that's definitely not a barrier to learning CS lol

[smoky quest]

What makes you think a CS degree would be out of reach for you?
College is very different from high school. It's a lot more applicable and interesting. You can apply all the learning in concrete programs too

[graceful wagon]

Depends on the school. Can think of a lot of UCSD courses that aren't applicable in concrete programs haha

[smoky quest]

like?

[graceful wagon]

theory of computability

[graceful wagon]

both good examples

[dreamy shadow]

Just hearing discrete math makes me run the other way.

[smoky quest]

You could touch some of it with code analysis or correctness

[dawn leaf]

Both of those courses are directly relevant to my work

[idle mango]

Hi

[delicate bane]

i recently had a recruiter reach out to me about a DS opportunity focused on optimization and i said "no thank you". it was an energy company so that made sense.

[smoky quest]

for the CSE 106, that's used in optimization problems

[peak halo]

the term you might be looking for is "software engineering"

[dreamy shadow]

Optimization is applicable in a quite a few fields. Def not something I want to do though.

[delicate bane]

agreed. massive headache for sure.

[dreamy shadow]

Still need to know part of it for ML though. Gradient decentttttttt

[sleek egret]

non-linear optimization theory is quite interesting

[peak halo]

though I'm looking at the bulletin for the MS in SWE at my university, and many of the courses are taught by the CS department.

[sleek egret]

the math is essentially all the same. I majored in systems engineering, which was essentially the math of engineering. turns out the math for analogue circuits is essentially the same as the math for mechanical systems and for hydrodynamic systems

[dawn leaf]

Knowing these things lets you work more interesting problems
Besides not everything needs to be directly relevant to work

Feynman said it best "Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it."

Up to you whether this resonates with you and justifies studying some of these deeper topics

[sleek egret]

like amps * volts = watts is the same as hole size * depth = flow

(the latter for a water pressure)

[river coral]

I'm 30. Already got a masters in HR. And want to switch careers. Got a family to feed so I don't have a lot of time to make the switch. I am trying to learn languages on my own. But I feel that won't be enough to get a job unless I have a degree. After talking to a number of software engineers, they said they don't use most of what they were taught in CS in their jobs but are mostly coding and stuff, that's why some companies hire people from the bootcamps without a degree. And the difficulty level of graduating CS isn't easy and I also cannot dedicate a lot of time to it.

[sleek egret]

if you get rejected, you get rejected. worrying about it changes nothing.

[sleek egret]

that's mostly because you're talking to low level grunts

[dreamy shadow]

Yea that's true. Especially close relationships with Physics & math. Hence formulas from the same guy.

[delicate bane]

carnegie mellon has them separated. but theyre cmu so that makes sense https://www.cs.cmu.edu/academics/masters/programs

[sleek egret]

one of the problems with software development is that the titles are essentially random. "programmer" could mean anything from a guy who barely knows PHP to someone working on stochastic models for finance. it's like if everyone from bedpan cleaners to nurses to EMT's to brain surgeons to cancer researchers were all "medics"

[smoky quest]

In your case, you could get a BS online/evening.
Or if you want a quicker change but at the exchange of less opportunities and lower compensation, you could aim for a bootcamp/self-taught.

[sleek egret]

you can get a job as a programmer without a degree, CS related or not. thousands and thousands do quite well without a degree. BUT... your life is just more difficult vs having a CS (or related) degree.

[dreamy shadow]

DS here time to shill DS

[sleek egret]

that's all people here are saying. without a degree, you will be locked out of certain jobs. some (not all) people will take you less seriously. etc, etc.

but you will certainly be considered for a lot of jobs. if you get an offer, it may not be tops in salary, but it will still be pretty damn good. and after a decade or so of experience, no degree will matter far less than when you started out. assuming you build an impressive history, that is.

a math degree is pretty tough. most people can't hack it.

[buoyant seal]

there are certain defined industry standards what software developer (regardless of his specialization and chosen languages) is supposed to know for different levels 😁

[sleek egret]

you don't major in math just because you're "interested" in it. a large fraction of math undergrads intend to get a math phd. so, it's self-selecting to be very challenging.

contrast that to CS where like 90%+ intend to go out and work as software developers upon graduation

[graceful wagon]

Thanks again for all your insight @summer roost . I made the decision to ask as polite as I could. Will see what comes of it

Worst case, I saved myself from waking up at 6am. But I'm feeling confident that they won't rescind the offer

[sleek egret]

a math degree will be looked upon positively by "big tech" recruiters. but understand that they won't cut you any slack on your programming chops.

i.e. they will expect that since you're big brain enough to get a math degree, you were smart enough to learn almost as much about programming and CS as CS majors

[sleek egret]

waking at 6am is no problem if you go to sleep by 10p or 11p 🙂

[graceful wagon]

very hard for a 26 year old who's biggest passion is going to concerts every weekend lol

[sleek egret]

well, gotta have priorities

[delicate bane]

i mean maybe you can negotiate different meeting times. and just work later hours or something.

[graceful wagon]

right, my priority is not sacrificing my passions for the difference in sum between this position and current

For a greater sum, maybe.

[sleek egret]

not showing up to group meetings is not helpful for your career

[graceful wagon]

I asked in my email as well, that i'd be open to the current offer if the team would be more flexible with my hours

[river coral]

This is without a CS degree, you mean?

[sleek egret]

yes

[river coral]

What do you think is better? Spend the next 1-2 years in a CS degree program or spend the same time learning to become a developer through bootcamps etc.?

[dreamy shadow]

CS program

[river coral]

It's just that most job postings I have seen the degree requirement whereas all bootcamps promise a job once you graduate from them (meaning no CS degree).

[dreamy shadow]

Bootcamps are now meaningless. Better than nothing, but not by much.

[sleek egret]

a job

not a good job. Think of all the ways they can make good on their promise in a way that you would find objectionable.

[delicate bane]

some bootcamps can be very predatory. youll have to do your due diligence to find the decent/good ones; this includes reaching out to former bootcamp grads and asking them about their experience

[sleek egret]

also, remember that many people who already have a career in software development go to a bootcamp to learn a new language or framework. i.e. javascript front end folks wanting to learn python and databases. that sort of thing.

[dreamy shadow]

I think for employers, the consensus on bootcamps has shifted to be more negative. Too many garbage bootcamps out there that diluted the waters.

[river coral]

I probably won't pay to join one when all that information is available for free or through much cheaper courses. But there are some that do not charge upfront (like Microverse - they said they'll take a cut from your pay after your graduate and get a job).

But most likely I'll be doing self-learning and then practicing to code.

[sleek egret]

it's not like going to a bootcamp will hurt you (except possibly for the cost & time). just don't expect it to be as well regarded as a CS degree

[sleek egret]

You think it could possibly be regarded negatively? hmm

[delicate bane]

probably for some companies

[sleek egret]

well. that's too bad. it's not the student's fault

[river coral]

What about 'certificates'? Do they have any value for employers? Say, I learn most of programming myself and then get a few certificates. I'm not comparing it with a CS degree but maybe it's better than not having any piece of paper confirming your skill?

[sleek egret]

no, not much

[dreamy shadow]

Unless it's like AWS cert.

[delicate bane]

yeah there are some rockstars that started out their tech career from a bootcamp. heard many of their stories on various podcasts

[dreamy shadow]

Honestly, if your going to spend time doing a boot camp/cert, just do a real program.

[river coral]

Cost is also a huge factor for a CS program. I see most online ones are around $15K at least.

Yes

This is the lower cost ones.

[dreamy shadow]

Shill time
Gtech OMCS: ~10k Full program
UT Austin OMCS: ~10k Full program

Online masters generally have the notion of: Here's the material, learn it on your own. Which is not for everyone.

[sleek egret]

lol

[river coral]

Do these require any CS experience or background to enroll?

[dreamy shadow]

You'll need to list experience. They are vigorous programs, so if you don't know any OOP knowledge or a basic syntax for a single language you will not survive.

[sleek egret]

I have come to believe that a CS masters without a CS undergrad degree is nearly pointless

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, they have 3 specializations. I only know ML is one.

[river coral]

Another reason why I am so hesitant and think I might not survive.

[dreamy shadow]

I mean, how much coding do you know?

[river coral]

I have only started doing basics of Python and JS.

[dreamy shadow]

Then I doubt you would be accepted. GTech has a backdoor via their Micro Masters program. (You take it, get 90+ and you generally will get admitted.)

Tbh, there really is no shortcut... ~~ Beside Data science. shill shill shill~~

[sleek egret]

it's taken me 35 years

I'm a bit slow

[earnest timber]

hey

[sleek egret]

yeh

[spark cobalt]

Ayyye good stuff! Many congratulations!

[patent grove]

do u guys think $128k starting for a data engineering role (1YOE part time) in the bay at the company is fair?

[deft herald]

Assuming that's base and not total compensation, yes

[spark cobalt]

For non-tech that's pretty good

[patent grove]

its TC haha

107 base + 21k equity/bonus

[deft herald]

Is it a tech company? Were you asking about this earlier?

[patent grove]

yeah but they uppd my offer. it was 107k before and now it got pushed + 21k with equity/bonus

its a construction company with a technology solutions subdivision haha

[deft herald]

Ok it sounds like they gave you more information rather than upped your offer

Yeah I mean I think that's reasonable for a non tech company entry level position

[patent grove]

well i mean on my offer letter there were no RSUs or bonuses so i had to tell them and ask for it haha. i think they were trying to scam me

[deft herald]

No I doubt it. Bonuses are typically tied to position and performance reviews for everyone. It's not like they would just not give it to someone

[patent grove]

so they usually give u the base salary first and then after u sign they tell u about RSUs and bonuses? and give u a day to sign it?

[smoky quest]

no. Your offer would talk about them. if it's not written down, then there is nothing to expect

[patent grove]

yeah exactly i think they tried to scam me here haha. they told me to sign in a day and it only had my base salary and like 28 days of vacation or whatever on it

[deft herald]

Yeah I can't remember what mine said exactly

[smoky quest]

It would talk about grants to be approved by the board and their vesting and exercising conditions, etc.

note also that equity and signin bonus are not recurring

[patent grove]

yup lol first offer had 0 of that which is kinda funnny. it said there was a job descrption and that wasnt even tied in either

i lowkey hate how scummy large corporations are at times ngl

[deft herald]

Hmm

Is the 21k RSU/bonus a sign on thing or is it an estimate of yearly bonus?

[patent grove]

estimated yearly with 5k of it being exact yearly thing

[deft herald]

Yeah that's weird it wasn't in the original offer letter

That doesn't seem like something they would negotiate with

[patent grove]

is the 401k supposed to be written in benefits as well? or could that be under health/welfare benefits

[patent grove]

yeah im definitely hopping ships ASAP just cuz of this red flag

[deft herald]

It's under benefits

[deft herald]

I'm still wondering if maybe you just misunderstood something. Then again it is a large home builder company so maybe I'm not surprised 😄

[patent grove]

well i had nothing to misunderstand other than a page long offer letter with no responibilities and 1 day to sign lol. there was one message and it went "i hope this works for you"

[white relic]

surprised there's still room to build homes in the bay

[patent grove]

well they build all around the US. they are the largest, the company is called D.R. Horton

[white relic]

ah

[patent grove]

also is it true if a company has like 30B revenue, they have more budget for these types of roles typically to like a 300m company or even 3b company

[white relic]

really just depends on the company

[smoky quest]

but you get discounts for lennar homes?

[patent grove]

that is a separate company

[smoky quest]

hence my confusion

[patent grove]

like depends on the specific role and budget for the company? should u ever ask like whats the budget anyways or range, cant they just lie

[white relic]

it depends on everything

I'm not really sure what you're asking there tbh

[patent grove]

companies with more revenue, do they usually offer more for their roles since they got more money?

[white relic]

more revenue doesn't mean more profit

[true harness]

This role is has a very small compensation amount for the right candidate.

Salary: $100.00 per month
uhhhhhhhh (this is a job posting i found it's not related to the previous salary discussion)

[white relic]

And profit doesn't necessarily get paid back to employees anyway

it just depends on the company. Some companies pay annual bonuses based on the company's performance. Many public companies have a tax advantaged stock buying program or something like that. Many companies don't have anything like that.

[smoky quest]

the context is for someone living in the bay though.
So expectations would be that of anyone else living in the bay

[white relic]

I am responding to the general question of do companies with more revenue pay more

[summer roost]

more profitable companies can afford to pay more, but companies don't become more profitable by overpaying for things.

[delicate bane]

for non-tech yeah

[delicate bane]

sounds like a scam

[delicate bane]

we live in a capitalist society

[smoky quest]

Playing the devil advocate and focusing on the salary/bonuses: can they? Or rather, should they?
Some random points:

• Monetary incentives have diminishing returns in terms of motivation. That's where the whole autonomy/mastery/purpose fit in
• That may create unhealthy incentives as people would stay employed there because of the fat bonuses, and not because they are motivated to stay
• Overpaying engineers by wide margins increase the cost of productions and reduces the position with regards to the competition
• That reduces the investments that can be made in growth
• Their computations and attribution is somewhat arbitrary

[summer roost]

I think the answer to whether or not they can afford to pay more is definitely "yes".
But yeah, whether it would be a good use of their budgetary slack? That depends on a lot of factors. You named some of the negatives, but there's positives too - depriving competitors of talent, for one, and cash can shore up poor morale in the short term (though obviously that's not a long term fix).

bonuses based in performance can also help to motivate top performers

[dreamy shadow]

lmao, it boils down to: 1. Please the investors 2. Give CEO new yacht.
Justifying lower wages for companies is literally buying into their propaganda. If companies bothered invested back in their own assets, I doubt railroad tracks would be as bad as those in Ohio.

Not to mention, the PPP program in the US should have solidified this case.

[smoky quest]

that sounds like a simplistic approach

The point here is not to justify "low" wages, but what to do with the profits. How much returns can a company get out of that in distributing them to the employees comparing to using them in other ways

[dreamy shadow]

Like buying back their own stock?

[smoky quest]

That's one option among many

[summer roost]

That's not true for all companies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_corporation for instance. And private companies aren't beholden to investors. But also, I think you should read recursive's message more analytically. They weren't giving a justification for lower wages per se, they're giving suggestions about the most cost effective ways to help the company succeed - where "success" can be measured in lots of different ways, and for some companies it may just be producing the most short term value for shareholders, but that's not the only metric.

[delicate bane]

ah i was going to bring up b-corps

godly beat me

[smoky quest]

There is also the part where one could distribute the profits to the existing employees OR hire more employees as to make even more money and grow even more the value of the company (which also make the employees' stock more valuable). It does create a different trade off in terms of motivation, impact, growth, etc.
These are just options with different ROIs

Preventing your competitors' access to talent also implies you only need to pay more than them

[dreamy shadow]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Benefit_corporations A sad list.

[summer roost]

in the short term, it works 🙂

[smoky quest]

I don't disagree with it. When looking for jobs, it can be an effective strategy to get some competitors in the pipeline and to watch them fight

[delicate bane]

it is sad. but also seems incomplete. the example i know is Rstudio/Posit

[summer roost]

that's not an exhaustive list, but also, benefit corporations are relatively new, so any company incorporated more than a few decades ago can't be one.

2010 was the earliest a benefit corporation could be created

[dreamy shadow]

My point is that they few and far between despite them being relatively new. They literally go against capitalism.

[delicate bane]

we need more b-corps imo

its not that extreme. just not hyper-focused on quarterly earnings reports

[dreamy shadow]

Distributing profits back to existing employees in the market of capitalism is an oxymoron. e.g. if you had a machine that doubled employee's output, as a company of 100 employees. Do you 1. Cut 100 employees work day in half? or 2. Cut 50 employees.

[smoky quest]

That is not the focus on all the companies though

[dreamy shadow]

I'm sure it is for the fortune 500.

[smoky quest]

Definitely! However that is just a small subset

[summer roost]

so would hoping for profitable companies to pay more than the market rate for labor out of the goodness of their hearts. You seem to be taking a discussion about how companies are incentivized to behave under the systems that exist today as an attempt to justify those systems.

[delicate bane]

right, not all companies

[dreamy shadow]

Fortune 500 is apparently 2/3 of US GDP, 28.7 million people employed.

[smoky quest]

By the same token, most of the fortunes are concentrated in the hands of a tiny set of people. It doesn't mean they represent the typical lifestyle of americans

[dreamy shadow]

Actually, 28.7 million is world wide. I'm not sure what % is US based only.

[gleaming wren]

guys, do i have to get a masters? Does it make a difference

[smoky quest]

You don't need it to succeed. However, it can make a difference depending on your objectives

[dreamy shadow]

So, under capitalism you want to earn the most while reduce cost. So then: Raising employee's salary vs turn-over.
Raising an employee's salary would be less than all the cost associated with hiring new talent (Recruiting, onboard, transition, KT, etc). But instead for short term profits, a culture of hopping every 2 years is born as companies try to avoid those bumps.

[summer roost]

that depends on the company. There are companies that invest in their employees and try to retain talent. As you say, it's cheaper to do so than not, as long as your shareholders allow you to take the long term perspective.

[dreamy shadow]

And furthermore, EU has capitalism too. Yet they don't suffer these issues.

[summer roost]

Regardless, we could have a conversation about alternatives to capitalism, or ways in which mindless maximization of profit is harmful. But that's not the conversation we were having. It's possible to acknowledge that public for-profit companies have fiduciary duties to shareholders and that the incentives applied to them can result in unnecessary societal harms, while still discussing the costs and benefits to a company of making a particular decision (like raising wages) under the systems that exist today.

[delicate bane]

what prompted this question? what is your current situation? the tradeoff may or may not be worth it depending on the types of roles you are aiming for

[gleaming wren]

i know bachelors makes a big difference over no degree at all. The thing is I know with bachelors it's kinda ok to go to nonwellknown school. But with masters, if i still manage to go to a not great masters program, idk blow to my ego even more. Also I feel I need to get into the workplace instead of doing so after masters. I'm shy and stuff so I need experience. I thought more projects on resume or even jobs make way more of a difference over just that u have a masters but u didnt have time for anythign else

[summer roost]

what sort of work do you hope to do?

[smoky quest]

that's another can of worms. They do suffer from tons of problems.
There is a reason europe has basically zero large tech company

[gleaming wren]

erm I'm still 19. I don't know enough yet about which sector of cs to go in. I need more time. I don't feel I'll be some passionate person who knows a ton if I were to head into masters after undergrad

[gleaming wren]

dad talking about it to me. Both my parents got masters so Idk if I'm making a mistake

[smoky quest]

It's correlation vs causation.
Would the absence of a masters prevent you from being successful? No. You can have a great career
Would a mater help? Definitely. It can open more doors and due to being more educated and skilled, it will help you go faster and deeper in many topics

[dreamy shadow]

That is another can of worms that even I don't want to get into. Frankly, I rather suffer their problems than the ones that exist here.

[summer roost]

there are lines of work where masters degrees are practically necessary, and ones where the benefit they offer is much more modest. I think asking whether a masters degree would be beneficial before deciding what sort of job you want is putting the cart before the horse

[gleaming wren]

but i think i might be in my comfort zone. building a resume and application/interview process and even maintaining a job is a lot harder than doing hwk and studying for exams

[dreamy shadow]

You can worry about a masters after you get your undergrad and even a few years of work.

[gleaming wren]

Yeah, I guess the rule is only after I get a solid job will I go into masters. It's just my cousins are going straight to masters from undergrad. They're all like 2-3 years older than me

[summer roost]

sure, perhaps, but you have to do it eventually anyway, whenever you're done collecting degrees

[dreamy shadow]

I personally believe it's more useful to have a few years of actual work experience after undergrad. It helps guide and focus what you care about in your masters.

[smoky quest]

If you have the opportunity for a masters, go for it

[smoky quest]

It's fair. We all optimize for different things

[leaden jasper]

I am very glad I did not go straight into my Master's from my undergrad. A) my company paid for it. B) It was very, very, very nice getting out of academia for awhile, C) my job and the career path I wanted allowed me to realize I needed my master's degree to look a bit different than when I was in undergrad

[smoky quest]

I would prioritize getting a master straight and not getting a job first.
It's even more difficult to go back to school after getting a job. I have had folks I know to whom it has cost their marriage

[dreamy shadow]

lmao, I'm pretty sure they had relationship issues long before the masters then.

[gleaming wren]

i really agree with u

[gleaming wren]

I just am not one of those kids who are actually smart/know what they're doing/did CS before college so I need more time

[smoky quest]

That's the type of assumption I wouldn't do.
It's a common occurrence

[smoky quest]

It's entirely up to you. I am just pointing out that some do fail and generally speaking, it's more difficult to go back to school after having an income and a job. Plus having to do the additional workload on top

[leaden jasper]

It's just my experience. In general, I don't find going into a Master's from undergrad useful. People who got a master's from undergrad at my alma mater usually did a 3+2 program, so it was only 1 extra year in undergrad and they leave with a master's and bachelor's. Otherwise, people go straight for the PhD and if they realize it's not for them, they peace out with a master's. The remaining all had work pay for it and they did school part time.

[gleaming wren]

idk how technical i wanna go. But I don't think I have the patience to be phd level

[dreamy shadow]

I'm not sure if that many companies fully pay for grad school now-a-days. Our company only pays 10k max per year w/ 1 year tenure after graduation.

[leaden jasper]

I will say I don't 100% agree with it being difficult to go back to school after having a job. Both of my workplaces were very accommodating as were my professors. I generally had better work ethic since I grew up since getting my Bachelor's too.

[dreamy shadow]

I haven't had one person who has a PhD recommend doing a PhD.

[smoky quest]

There is a lot more variance there as it depends on the goodwill of multiple parties

[dreamy shadow]

Adding on this, I think it's even easier now with many masters being online.

[gleaming wren]

Ohh I forgot about that route

[dreamy shadow]

Do beware that online masters do require you to be much more disciplined.

(And I MBA is one I don't recommend doing online as you do it for the connections)

[delicate bane]

inb4 academia lyfe

[delicate bane]

i was going to ask you about mba programs but i realize im too tired and should just go sleep lmao

[west badger]

i have a question like should i get the official study guide for sat,priceton's review sat book or the barron's sat prep book?

[pine sleet]

My 2c: the official sat study guide didn't help me

The practice tests on there are the same as the khan academy ones

The actual content is pretty mid too tbh

[west badger]

so then

dont say that it didnt help you must didnt have tried much

[summer roost]

Being rude to someone who tried to help you is not acceptable. You need to review our #code-of-conduct

And your question was off topic anyway. See rule 7.

[west badger]

i am not being rude . if that is what you call rude then i am sorry @pine sleet

[west badger]

not off topic as it will for sure decide my career

[summer roost]

Yes, it is, and no, it won't

[spare sluice]

Yo. So like, have any of you had the team you work on take suuuuuuuuuch a wild turn and prioritize an epic that you think is just so incredibly dumb?

For example, there's this idea called "biased language" where words like "blacklist," "grandfathered," "dummy data," "sanity check" or even "enabled" and "disabled" are now considered biased and offensive and a PM now decides that we need to prioritize this over other feature work............ And it's more than just find/replace, we have conf files that require migration scripts and everything over this dang initiative. Today we decided to push out a really cool initiative and wouldn't even consider removing this "biased terms" epic

[thick shale]

With the tech industry being a bit rough right now, I wonder if it’s still a good time right now to ask for a raise as an intermediate software engineer with a few years of experience. What do you guys think?

[white relic]

There's never a bad time to just ask for a raise (well, maybe immediately after you already got a substantial raise, but even then it's probably not dangerous to your career). "I want more money" is a reasonable thing for anyone to say. They don't have to give it to you, obviously.

Also (hopefully obviously), you'll be more likely to get it if you come prepared - show how you've been exceeding the expectations for your pay band, have recently taken on additional responsibilities, or how your annual increases haven't kept up with inflation (which is probably true for most people)

It's worth noting that many companies do annual raises in February-April. We just got ours. If you might be about to get an increase anyway, it is probably better to wait until after that.

[thick summit]

Hello , im confuse where to learn python ? Please guide me

[spark cobalt]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[thick summit]

thanks bro.

[honest plume]

Guys do I need to take computer science for jobs related to python? Apparently its more theory based

[white relic]

There are many jobs that use some amount of Python and may have more or less theory, but a degree in computer science or a closely related field will always dramatically improve your chances of getting one.

if by "take computer science" you mean something other than getting a degree, it probably makes much less difference.

[west badger]

Guysss....I have a real question this time....

So like if I do a course of python from Coursera and then get a certificate....

And for applying into US universities there is a column for extracurricular activities so like can I fill in my certificate I got from Coursera for coding??

[true harness]

that's not an extracurricular

[west badger]

How tho

[true harness]

that's not what it means

[honest plume]

alright thank you

[west badger]

Could you please explain??@true harness

[true harness]

an extracurricular is a club, or sport, or job that you do. not a one time certificate

[west badger]

So then what should I do if I want to fill one of the activity as coding

[spark cobalt]

Sure, there's nothing wrong with putting hobbies in your extracurriculars, the point is that if you want to stand out, typically doing things within a group setting is much more appealing (i.e., president of a club, shift lead at a restaurant, team captain for your soccer team), or some outstanding achievement (which would have to be recognized somewhere, not just some certificate. Hackathons, robotics competitions, etc.)

How is you doing coding for fun going to separate you from other candidates? Especially if you're applying to a T1 college, things like this are bare minimum expectancy for students.

Anyone can do a certificate, not anyone can be the leader of an organization or win certain awards.

[true harness]

that's not true. around 1/3 of CS freshmen have no coding experience, at least at UIUC, which is like top 5

[spark cobalt]

I mean a hobby in general, not specifically coding.

[true harness]

having a hobby? I guess so lol

[west badger]

My school don't have a coding club so I created a club but on discord. I don't think that would work . Right?

[true harness]

why wouldn't it

[spark cobalt]

I mean if the club did something, why not?

[spark cobalt]

Just seems like he wants to put coding as a hobby for an extracurricular which is kind of scraping the barrel if it isn't anything more than that

[west badger]

Alright can you guys tell what else extracurricular activities should I do as I have only 2 years left until I start applying

[true harness]

it doesn't really matter. do something you like, and have a leadership position

[west badger]

I want to pursue a CS degree

[spark cobalt]

Found a coding club within your school is a good start.

[west badger]

Even on discord?

[spark cobalt]

At least in my school we had several clubs revolving around CS. We had a club that made mobile apps and websites for the school district, and other clubs that were more informational.

[west badger]

But my school is so bad try to understand that.

[west badger]

And could you answer this

[spark cobalt]

I find it hard to believe you're the only student remotely passionate about CS or technology in general.

[west badger]

To be honest yes I am the only one atleast in my school

[spark cobalt]

You've already been answered above. Don't ignore what people are responding with.

[west badger]

And yeah if I make a club with people from different schools then it also sound fine. Doesn't it?@spark cobalt

[spark cobalt]

Bruh

You've asked literally the same thing 5 times already. Please stop ignoring what people are saying.

[west badger]

No I haven't I said I made a group with my classmates from my school@spark cobalt

[white relic]

do someone you like
That's not exactly what colleges are looking for either AFAIK 😏

[true harness]

oops

[spark cobalt]

You'll do it at the college