career-advice

[humble kelp]

When you're asian, getting overworked and exceeding everyone's expectations is in your genes 💀

[vapid jay]

Yeah and your coworkers still make more than you probably

[humble kelp]

They actually do. 😕

[vapid jay]

Oh it's cool that you do 5 tickets a week, and Bob does 2, but he's done more job hops and is better at negotiating which takes maybe 50 hours to learn, so he makes more

and more importantly he doesn't stress himself out

But yeah I was in your situation prior to dev in a similar professional position and those were my realizations. Do not fire yourself, do not lay yourself off, I did that too. Just work less, look for transfers, do fmla before anything drastic, consider if your team actually expects you to work that much, they probably don't.
People got laid off. It was not based on performance. It was based on your group/role. You could've been the top performer, you were still gone.

You have very little control of if you will get laid off or fired

[vapid jay]

AI good to study in university?

[smoky quest]

sure

[zealous path]

You shouldn’t really ask “is X good to study”
You should ask yourself “Do I enjoy X?”

[woeful thistle]

maybe the guy looking for jobs should try cold emails etc

[sleek egret]

I think history is good to study in university

philosophy too

[forest jungle]

I'm a big proponent of "range"

Also, am I missing something with Indeed not returning entry level jobs when I apply an entry-level filter?

[true harness]

i'm pretty sure the way they classify them isn't always set by the people posting the job, rather it's pulled from the job app using indeed magic or something. i would just search "junior" or "entry level". i found better success looking for internships this way (not putting an "internship" filter)

[forest jungle]

I have attempted this and it consistently makes my results even worse

[vapid jay]

Hello everyone. I'm confused between which field to pursue in CS. Atm I'm kinda inclined towards cybersecurity and cloud-computing and would be fine to go ahead with any of them. Would love to hear opinions and suggestions from people who are in this field, infact also from anyone else out here. I have a year or so before I get into uni but just wanted to sort things out and not leave it for the very last moment.

[tender venture]

Tons of people apply for Indeed jobs because they are growing when other tech companies have been laying off. I once took a contract at indeed just to realize I'd been hired to cover some guys maternity leave. I quit that week and went back to Apple

[true harness]

lot of people don't know what field they want to go into after a few year in uni. you've got a lot of time to decide. try getting exposure to a bunch of things by trying stuff

[forest jungle]

You're facing what amounts to a "match fit" problem, and odds are no one here is going to be able to tell you what field you're going to enjoy most. I'd recommend trying to get internships while in uni, or otherwise some sort of job shadowing.

Sampling from the various fields and seeing what they're like will give you more information with which to make decisions moving forward.

[vapid jay]

Any tips on how to get exposure at this age?

[vapid jay]

I've done all the research work and that's how I've shortlisted 2 fields (cyber security and cloud computing) but idk which one's the better one

[true harness]

do projects

[vapid jay]

What sort of projects? If you don't mind

[true harness]

presumably, cloud computing and cyber security projects

[glad zealot]

Hi, before anything else here is a little backstory. We have our tasks automated mainly by Alteryx. And now suddenly, our company will start decommisioning the said tool. They are asking as now to either move to VBA coding or learn to code in Python. So I'm gonna ask if there is any way to learn Python that will be useful for work (we deal with a lot of spreadsheet/excel files)? Or do we need to start from scratch in learning it (provided that we almost work for 12hrs/day)? Thank you!

[tender venture]

I would go with the python route and start with pandas and xlsxwriter modules

[frosty cove]

Man VBA is eternal, I don’t think it’ll ever die lol

[vapid jay]

hi,im from india...i havebeen learning coding for a while and i have been wondering even if i dont get a decent college for computer science can i get a job just based on my skills entirely ...that i know how to code?

if there is someone who can clarify things for jobs specially if he/she is from india pls help

[vapid jay]

i dont know if i'd enjoy AI, I mean, I like py

[sleek egret]

it's possible, just more difficult

[near ocean]

Are you familiar with programming in general?

[vapid jay]

like u need a good degree for it right.....like for example i cant have a cs degree from an nit or something but like a low lvl or good private college?

[sleek egret]

there will be positions that require a degree. there will be others that don't. this necessarily limits the opportunities you can pursue. of the positions that require a degree, some companies will only hire grads from specific universities. others will be more flexible. such is life.

[vapid jay]

yess okay

thanks a lot,,are u a software engineer?

[sleek egret]

yes

[peak torrent]

only for specific universities such as ? what companies are they?

[sleek egret]

some companies only recruit grads from specific universities for entry-level positions and strongly favor said grads for higher level positions. this is not news.

[vapid jay]

can i talk to u on dm if its okay?

[sleek egret]

no

[vapid jay]

ok..

[near ocean]

If you have questions just ask here

[vapid jay]

which country are u in?....like what was the process to college and from college to getting a good job

[sleek egret]

I am in the USA

[peak torrent]

I didn't know that tbh

[sleek egret]

after university, I applied for a job. I took a test. then an interview. then they made me an offer. I accepted.

[vapid jay]

like what is the test about?

[near ocean]

Similar situation for me in the UK and I assume everywhere else in the world

[peak torrent]

Hey guys someone in here with doble majors? or a minor?

[brittle thorn]

I thought u brit lmao

[vapid jay]

i see

[sleek egret]

well, my first jobs were really when I was a teen (14 or 15) shoveling snow, moving soil, etc. then I delivered pizzas. then I was a messenger. then I worked at a computer repair shop. then I worked fixing xerox copying machines. don't know if that shit counts though.

[vapid jay]

demn u have really worked hard

[sleek egret]

there were non tests for those. and the interviews were not very challenging... more "I see you're not a criminal thug, when can you start?" sort of things

[vapid jay]

oh lmao

kk thanks a lot for the insight man

[atomic roost]

Apparently forbidden to seek for a internship in this server so i have to edit

[peak halo]

as I mentioned in #data-science-and-ml, this isn't a place to solicit paid work. please edit your message accordingly.

[atomic roost]

I don't solicit any paid work. My goal is just to find an interesting internship in European Union in data science field

[peak halo]

those are almost always paid (and you shouldn't do one if it isn't). kindly edit or remove your message.

[atomic roost]

It's hard enough to find an internship abroad so I was hoping for some support on this server but it seems that it is not possible.

[quasi mural]

How can I become robotics engineer

[sleek egret]

to work in robotics, you would want to go to university and study mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, computer science and possibly materials science.

if you want to work on mobile robotics, and understanding of biokinematics may be helpful as well.

foundationally, you would need a lot of math (multivariate calculus, linear algebra, statistics & probability, linear and non-linear optimization, etc, etc)

[brittle thorn]

Some uni got robotics clubs do join

[sleek egret]

oh, and it would be quite helpful to putz around in machine shops to get a better grasp of the practicalities

IMO, a few weeks in a machine shop teaches more about tolerances than an entire semester

oh, forgot control systems. definitely need that.

[analog sun]

Or Mechatronics

Plus there are manufacturing companies that usually have an apprenticeship program that covers that as well

[true harness]

you can ask for support, just not for a job

[atomic roost]

I have resume, cover letter etc.. so I don't know what can I expect more for support ? I mean, I would like to propose my application to some computer science teams not simply "get an internship"

[true harness]

you could ask for a review on the resume, maybe. also i'm not sure what you mean by

I would like to propose my application to some computer science teams

[atomic roost]

How sorry, my translation is not pretty good
I was saying that my message sooner wasn't in the order to just "seek for a job" but to know if someone has connection, know people in data science field...

[atomic roost]

I have one question about resume. My english prof said that outside France, people don't put photo on resume. Is that true ?

[true harness]

yes. in the US, your resume will be tossed to avoid discrimination

[atomic roost]

And do you know in European Union ? Because with visa, it's quite hard to go to the US

[true harness]

i'm not sure, i'd wait for EU people to give advice

[atomic roost]

Ok thx

[raw nest]

i didn't know that, are people really that racist in the US??

[forest jungle]

It's not a racism issue, it's a lawsuit issue

[true harness]

it's not about being racist, it's about avoiding any chance of being accused of being racist

[forest jungle]

Doesn't matter if they like or dislike the photo, putting the photo on there at all opens you up to lawsuits so it's easier to just have a policy of binning them all

[true harness]

if you include a picture and you are denied, you might sue them for discrimination or something. companies don't want that

[raw nest]

what about Resumé of Models though l

[forest jungle]

Those people don't generally ask about portfolio tips in the Python discord

[true harness]

huh. you know i've never thought much about how models even apply to jobs. that's probably super annoying from a hiring perspective

[raw nest]

Haha, You're right

[forest jungle]

Also I believe most models are considered private contractors doing business to business contracts, kind of akin to actors. Not an expert on that though, so don't quote me.

[true harness]

Can I post a job here?
no

[lone crater]

What's the appropriate channel to post?

[true harness]

none

[analog sun]

I have removed your message because it does not follow rule 6

And some of rule 9

[sage relic]

How do i resolve this JSONDecodeError?

[smoky quest]

Hi!
This has nothing to do with the topic of this channel. You can find more help on #❓｜how-to-get-help

[dreamy shadow]

I believe some asian countries also used a photo as the norm. I know China does. Meant as a reply. Thanks mobile discord.

[spark cobalt]

Quite a bit of Europe too.

[graceful wagon]

Do people have experience with companies working in est hours but ending up allowing you to be more flexible w PST? My recent offer is for an EST team, and I really want it but I can't imagine waking up at 6am daily...

[gritty rivet]

This is going to vary widely between companies and teams and the nature of the work you're doing. You need to ask them and be clear about what you are and aren't willing to do.

I work at a fully distributed company with as many people in ET as PT (and even some further afield) and we make it work. But you can't assume most places will have that flexibility

[zealous topaz]

is it bad time for 0-1 year big data developer to look for junior position? looks like market is flooded with senior positions or "junior" position with 8+ years (idk how that can be "junior" but w/e)

[peak halo]

the first job hunt is just always brutal, unless you have an internship that transitions to a full-time position. I'm still working my first job out of university, and I'm very happy with it, but I still had to apply to like 200 positions.

[ornate solstice]

Just started applying to entry-level python dev positions and internships, and phew. Does anyone have any tips or advice as I go through this process? It really feels like a numbers game / all luck

[peak halo]

most of your applications probably won't go anywhere. you'll probably hear back about less than 10%. it sucks.

[vapid jay]

I heard it helps to have a good portfolio

[peak halo]

you can post an anonymized resume here as a (readable) screenshot, if you want a review

[vapid jay]

Otherwise you just gotta try your luck I would say

[peak halo]

having quality code on github helps, but resume reviewers won't look at your github unless the content of your resume matches what they need for the position.

[vapid jay]

Yeah that’s true

That’s why I think the best way is to pick a niche and work on that then apply

[ornate solstice]

I'll do that, thanks. right now my resume is all projects (which are posted on github) so I've tried to polish it as much as possible

[peak halo]

am I to understand, then, that you don't have a degree?

[ornate solstice]

ah, sorry I have a degree and am about to graduate from another BS (in CS). so resume is education and projects, some skills, leadership positions, but just started applying so no "real" work experience yet

[peak halo]

ah okay. what's your first degree in, out of curiosity?

[ornate solstice]

psychology! I studied neuroscience and human behavior, which still interests me but a few years ago I started self-teaching myself python and quickly discovered I loved it way more. that pushed me to switch into tech and pursue a degree program

I did a bit of research on human interaction and such, so it's been fun overlapping that knowledge when designing front-end components. now I just have to find an opportunity to apply all this professionally lol

[delicate bane]

have you considered UX/User Research positions?

[ornate solstice]

Only briefly! I’ll look into it a bit more right now

[delicate bane]

i think you could leverage your past education to at least break into tech for that first position and then it should be easier to pivot to somewhere else if youd like to after you have some work experience on your resume — but maybe you can go straight to a position like backend dev out of school. it just depends.

at the very least, consider both approaches i would say

[ornate solstice]

that's really helpful advice and a good reminder to take a step back (it's easy for me to think "my end goal is to be this specific type of python dev and there is only one path to that", which is obviously not true). thank you!

[stable elbow]

so im thinking im not even going to negotiate salary on this first position. just going to take it and immediately keep looking for something better,
since its a smol company, and I'd be the only guy in the department.

[white torrent]

I’d watch out for jumping between jobs too quick, if your CV is filled with a lot of really short bursts at different jobs that can sometimes look iffy

[stable elbow]

the first job is really underpaying the market average and since its a new area they are exploring, may have them apprehensive on the commitment. but I currently have no job so kinda have to take it. If I get a new job, I'll probably just leave out this one on my resume

[smoky quest]

That may come across as disingenuous.
I find it safer to aim for what you want directly. That saves a lot of time, drama and headaches

[stable elbow]

It may be, but a year of job searching is not a fun experience.

[white relic]

It is extremely unlikely that asking for a higher salary would cause you to lose the offer entirely. The worst they are likely to say is no, they won't raise it. If you ask for what you want and they give it to you, that's great; if not, you can still accept the original offer.

Everybody wants more money. It's not unreasonable.

And if you ask for more and they don't give it to you, IMO, it's much less of a dick move to take a better paying job in six months than if you accepted the first offer without expressing you wanted more

[sage pumice]

If them not raising your salary causes you to not accept their offer, they potentially need to spend much more money to look for another candidate.

[fathom peak]

So recently I started doing some coding at my job. I'm having this.. Not really a problem, more of a... Phenomenon. Basically my coworkers frequently kind of overestimate how difficult what I'm doing really is. "You sure you want to put in all that work?", regarding something I then end up hacking out in an afternoon.

It's not like I'm doing AI development or anything. It's just a script that gathers relevant information from several data files and puts it out in a single excel sheet.

[sleek egret]

you could do AI dev though. if you tried hard enough, right?

[delicate bane]

no problem. im a career switcher myself so i always think if you can leverage past experience to make things easier, then go for it if it makes sense

[glad zealot]

Okay will try to atleast learn it. What I fear the most is that it might really take awhile to atleast familiarize myself with python since I don't have the foundational. Learning.

[glad zealot]

Yeah, that's why I also thought too. But the way our discussion goes, they are leaning towards learning Python.

[glad zealot]

No, not really.

[ornate solstice]

Definitely, that’s a good point. And nice, it’s always great to chat with people who have been in the same position!

[delicate bane]

yep yep. UI/UX/Design roles were top of mind for me since they were touched upon most recently in Compiler's Re:Role series, which is focused on tech careers.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/1YW8zwLP3ckCjxcrz6wecu

theyve had episodes on CTO and architect previously too so that was interesting

[vapid jay]

I have a new appreciation for front-end designers. But I would never do their job. :😐

[tardy hinge]

Any python developer here? What do you do in everyday basis

[lavish panther]

yeah! here

[tardy hinge]

What actually you work on everyday. Can you explain. I m planning to switch i need clarity

[spark cobalt]

Meetings, calls, coding, planning, more meetings, more planning, sometimes more coding.

[tardy hinge]

What type of coding you do actually backend django?

[dire portal]

i just started finish learning basic of python is there any advice to getting started on project for beginner like me to build my portfolio and experience slowly

[smoky quest]

don't worry about your portfolio and experience at this time.
Focus more on the exercises and mastery. Make sure you do the exercises from your learning resource and do not hesitate to explore and tweak them

[fathom peak]

No idea, I don't have that much interest.

[velvet fox]

Has anyone faced a silent strong cold war from a senior engineer when you are doing work much better than they do. If yes how did u handle it? Did u leave the company?

[tardy hinge]

Read 48 laws of power.

[pearl saddle]

hello,
im a beginner in development or should I say just learning programming, I've been just using code editors like vscode and IDEs as pycharm for about and year for programming but for some time now since I started learning C, I started using wsl to use C compiler and just the linux command line in general, did some customizations in prompt and I would say using the command line is fun, also saw how vim and nano and some tools work inside of the terminal, but now I'm pretty confused, I will be starting my college this year and wanted learn a lot of basic stuff first so that I can focus on mastering the things I found most fun and compatible with me in college instead of searching for the same at that time, but now I'm confused about what tools should I be using, should I run a linux distro on a virtual machine or just continue using WSL, one thing clear to me is I wanna use linux for developing, more features and more efficient than just the tools on windows, but as I am a only beginner I don't even know what would I be learning next or what challenge I would face/ require a new skill to learn, so I dont wanna end up wasting time on learning using a tool I wont be even using that much, I plan on learning C++, ruby, javascript and some more after I complete C, and the fields I like the most are game dev, web dev, competitive programming, and programming in general, these I would be doing by my self, and plan on doing courses on AI and ML in college along with a normal CS degree. It be really helpful of you guys can give me some suggestions or tell me what its like to be doing the stuff I mentioned I wanna do

[vapid jay]

you can use a virtual machine for linux or just stick to WSL like I do for work

depends on ur needs for VM

[buoyant seal]

There are many Linux distros, and essentially it is kind of about finding what you like the best. So my advice is installing Linux at least on dual boot, and well, trying until you find what is best for you.
I would recommend using distro having under the hood long term supported solution https://www.geekersdigest.com/updated-list-of-linux-distributions-with-long-term-support-lts/ and my personal recommendation using distro based on Ubuntu/Debian, because they are the most stable, easy to use, a lot of guides, supported by many tools for already compiled binaries and installers, and very often usage case for Docker images which is very important aspect for web development.

Recommending to try Kubuntu 22.04 LTS, because it is very nice experience in terms of GUI, and kind of very familiar for users migrating from Windows.

regarding windows:
I would say WSL1 is not the way, it brings very limited experience (it is still Windows as its engine)
WSL2 gives fully virtualized experience, and will be working smoothly... but it is very huge overhead in resource consumption, plus you will still have problems with your case insensetive Windows filesystem each time you are in it.
My personal recommendation just installing already Linux as one of OSes, or at least going for WSL2 at second best solution

Probably better going for you WSL2 may be? It will leave you room to remain in windows (which is kind of necessary for game development and for more full experience in C++/C# needed for game dev)

[pearl saddle]

like I said, I dont know what I would be dealing with in the future, but I atleast wanna be a little bit prepared so I dont feel completely lost once i do

[buoyant seal]

Regardless what u will learn next, very much recommending Code Complete by McConnel to read eventuallly. This book has like.... literally everything regarding software development 😁 It will teach a lot of stuff, plus will show you what can be learned next in each aspect of development

[pearl saddle]

just the thing I wanted, will give it a shot in my free time, thank you so much! :)

[pearl saddle]

dont wanna go with dual booting, my laptop can run a virtual machine just fine, and i'll be doing game dev just for fun not serious so I can stick with windows for that, the stuff I wanna do seriously is what I have not decided, because im still at the learning stage

I wil lgive this book a shot and decide if I wanna run a virtual machine or if my needs can be met with the wsl terminal only

[white relic]

use #bot-commands for that kind of thing

[west badger]

Are tution fees in US public colleges for bachelor's degree in CS too much?

[white relic]

Tuition costs vary widely from one school to the next, but very few people pay sticker price for university, which is why they are so high

[west badger]

What was your tution fees for the whole thing??@white relic

[white relic]

$0

[west badger]

How???

[white relic]

National Merit scholarship, plus some grants

[west badger]

So it would be hard for an international student to pay the fees??

[white relic]

I still had to pay for room and board, books and general living expenses

There are financial aid programs for every kind of student. There are some that accept or even are specifically for international students, which I wouldn't have qualified for. But I don't know the names of any of them.

[west badger]

@white relic

[west badger]

So like if I only have a budget of 30k dollars at max then what

[white relic]

You'd have to do some research and find out what you qualify for. If you have a specific university in mind, you could call them - they probably have a financial aid department, or at least the admissions department could point you to someone who could advise

I'm sure you can find stuff online too

[west badger]

Last question that if you would have got no scholarship then what would be your fees for whole university degree??@white relic

And I am saying whole thing not per year or per semester

@white relic

[white relic]

The university I went to has a sticker price of $33k per year. So about $130k.
Again, nobody actually pays that

At the time it was cheaper so I wouldn't have actually paid that much anyway. But that's not really relevant to someone looking now.

Realistically, if I'd had to pay for it, I'd have gone to a different university and paid much less.

[west badger]

Can I pay the tution fees from student loan??

[white relic]

Yep.

[west badger]

Like for the whole degree??

[white relic]

There are different loans. Some may be used to pay for any student expenses, some can only be used for tuition. I had to take out loans for room and board even though my tuition was paid for.

[white relic]

Again, it depends on what you qualify for. I don't know what loans an international student can get. Maybe you have options I wouldn't know about.

[west badger]

Alright I will see but like if I get a student loan even only for the whole tution fees then I will pay it after I get a job

[white relic]

People do take out loans to pay for their whole degree. $100k in loans isn't super uncommon especially for people who want to become doctors or other highly paid professions that need lots of education.

[west badger]

I want a cs degree

[white relic]

You'd most likely take out loans on a year by year or even semester by semester basis. IIRC, I'd apply once a year and the money would land in my bank account at the beginning of each semester

I'd get a brief fun moment of imagining I had a lot of money before I had to send it on to the university

but yeah you don't take out 100k in debt all at once like you're buying a house or something

[west badger]

For student loans I have to pay it after getting the job right?

Alright so the thing you mean is that I should take student loan but year by year right?

[white relic]

the exact rules depend on the loan/bank, but in general you have to start paying once you're no longer a student.
There are often rules where you get to defer payments for a few months if you're in economic hardship (e.g. unemployed)

[west badger]

Alright I get it now

[white relic]

What you should do is up to you. I'm just saying, you don't go to a bank and say "I need a loan for $120k to go to university in the US for four years", you only get the loans you need to cover the next year.

[west badger]

Alright and I have a phot question lemme send that

In this will I get 10k one time only or 10k per year

[peak halo]

@white relic Can you send me a DM?

[peak halo]

that was my uni 🐏 👍 🟡 ⚫

[white relic]

That's probably 10k total for four years, but it does say "minimum".
However "out of state" might mean "another US state", so international students might not qualify.

Asking the school is the way to find out.

[west badger]

It is for international students

[west badger]

Hey look what I found

[vapid jay]

should i take software engineer as a job with no knowledge

but theres a training🤣😱😭🤔

[tender venture]

What do you mean no training?

[vapid jay]

maybe

[near ocean]

That doesnt answer the question

[vapid jay]

im not sure

[tender venture]

Do you have any CS background?

[vapid jay]

no

[near ocean]

Do you have an offer for this job?

[vapid jay]

i applied

[near ocean]

What do the requirements say on the job ad

[vapid jay]

senior level python software engineer

[lament sluice]

Hi

[abstract depot]

hey there so random question

[lament sluice]

Can I share my github link here?

[buoyant seal]

sure, why not 🙂

[abstract depot]

I want to do Coding as a career one day probably going for software engineering. Only issue is I barley know coding like at all, Ive been trying to learn using some online courses and all, but what I was wondering is do they teach like Coding from the the very beginning in college or like am I going to be really behind if I dont learn on my own

[tender venture]

To me the best way to get started is to take classes and get some kind of internship or job that allows for programming in some way

[abstract depot]

alrighty I guess as classes, you mean outside of a university?

I graduate high school in May so I was just hoping college would save me

[true harness]

yes, something around 1/3 of freshmen have 0 coding experience. that's not to say it won't be easier if you did, but they do start from the very beginning

[tender venture]

In or out of uni. For me it really helped to have something at stake, outside of my own initiative. Like I needed to do the project for my internship and I had time to find a way to use python in a very basic way

[true harness]

you got an internship with no programming experience ?

[tender venture]

It was unpaid and it wasn't a programming internship. I was also in uni and had taken an intro programming course by then

[true harness]

ah. yeah i wouldn't suggest unpaid internships, especially for CS

[tender venture]

^ Yeah I wouldn't recommend it. It helped my resume but imo internships should always be paid

[lament sluice]

https://github.com/ma1526763?tab=repositories

This is my github account. Can anyone please guide me which type of job I should apply for and how much salary should I demand.

.

[true harness]

your censoring is not very adequate

[true harness]

i don't think this is useful. you should look for jobs based on what you actually want to do, not your projects. also, why are they all caps 🤔

[lament sluice]

I like caps😅

Which type of job I should apply for. I am little confused

[peak halo]

@lament sluice as far as your salary, you should look on glassdoor for how much people with similar credentials are getting for different positions

[tender venture]

I would look in to marketing analytics @lament sluice

[lament sluice]

I have no idea that's why I came here @peak halo

[peak halo]

why you came to this server?

[lament sluice]

To get idea where should I apply

[peak halo]

what kind of developer do you want to be?

[lament sluice]

Back end that should be aware new techs in market. I would love to stay with python

[zealous topaz]

Hi guys. I'm a contractor in some company (Company A) who contracted me to another company (Company B). I was trained to be Junior big data developer through Company A. Company B gave me last offer and that is Lead Data Analyst. With what resources I can squeeze, I think I can barely make it (assuming I have all necessary support from both Company A and B). Company B is saying take it or go back to Company A. Should I take this?

a little bit about myself: been part-time video game contractor filling role as junior developer and project manager for 3 years. Big Data is 1 year - trained in Company A and B.

[lament sluice]

I just created the Tinder auto swipe bot and Twitter bot for net complain to my internet service providers

[zealous topaz]

Company A would definitely say to take the position as it gives them money, but at the same time, I was told they are prepping me for junior position with another client

[abstract depot]

Ah sweet alright I’ll add it all to the list

[true harness]

i mean, if you've got time, you should get familiar with programming. it will make your life much easier in intro courses. plus it's fun

[abstract depot]

Yeah I’ve been trying to learn with some websites and YouTube courses

Moneys tight so I haven’t really paid for any courses but yeah

I’m hoping to snag a uni scholarship or I might just hope a technical school has a program course cause I am a broke dude 😂

[delicate bane]

this was interesting

https://www.synq.io/blog/europe-data-salary-benchmark-2023

@near ocean any thoughts?

[near ocean]

I'm not DS or DE so I cant really say these are fair
What's surprising is continental Europe apparently being behind the UK in terms of salaries
But they have other benefits that UK peeps dont

I would have expected Dutch/Swedish/Danish/Finnish/etc salaries be comparable at least if not higher than UK salaries

Oh well, the dream to emigrate is still there

[real oyster]

I’m surprised the UK ones are that high

[buoyant seal]

Rumors say German salaries at local market aren't that different from third world countries salaries

[elder beacon]

I got my first year end evaluation after my first year as a dev and although I am not too surprised I do feel disappointed in myself.

I got evaluated well on the teamwork side but my evaluation on my technical side was lower than I thought.

I don't really see how you're supposed to write good software when PMs give half baked ideas, you're working with a shit codebase and have so little time. How are you supposed to do well in this kinda situation?

I did tell my manager(who barely does managing) about this but he says this is just how it is in startups. Am I unreasonable or is the manager full of shit?

[buoyant seal]

Both things are possible.
As we haven't seen your code and how u a good you in solving problems, and we were not the ones which were evaluating your technical side.
Well, and we aren't familiar in general with coding standards in your team
And not familiar with your manager

[buoyant seal]

Give us at least some food in form of pet projects 😃 and resume

[elder beacon]

this is a project I abandoned after it got too similar too what I was doing at my job: https://github.com/JYC11/dice_roller_v3

[near ocean]

Sounds like a shit manager
If "this is how it is in startups" why is that a reason to mark you down?

[elder beacon]

as for resume: https://fastupload.io/XCAJuCQgglrduEI/preview

[elder beacon]

his justification was that the end product was too buggy and the business only cares about whether the software works or not

[buoyant seal]

Do u have code reviews in your company during Pull requests submittion?

By devs

[delicate bane]

yeah theyre saying its bc of the big tech companies (higher comp) have more presence in london and dublin which skews the numbers in their favor

[elder beacon]

we do but they hardly get stuck to because of tight deadlines

we do write tests and have a CI/CD pipeline

[delicate bane]

bruh why do you think that is

[buoyant seal]

I have an urge to code review https://github.com/JYC11/dice_roller_v3
Would u like to have it done?
If yes, make pull request (with all code added to some empty branch)
I see some room for improvement in some places, and kind of got curious about your approach

[elder beacon]

Uhh sure if you want to do a code review then please go ahead. That would be really helpful.

[buoyant seal]

All right, awaiting linked PR from you.
Do something like... Delete everything from master in one commit, and add from another branch everything to master, or something similar

[elder beacon]

okay cool gimmie a bit

https://github.com/JYC11/dice_roller_v3/pull/2/files
@buoyant seal

[sleek egret]

yar

[near ocean]

code reviews in my discussion channel

[buoyant seal]

flood channel

[atomic roost]

Do you companies in EU that hire intern for summer in datascience field ? It's hard to find an internship abroad

[zealous path]

You’re either looking for a placement(about 3 months) or a year in industry(a year)

The former is generally something you’d sort out with your uni, the latter is more your own responsibility

Oh, sorry. Didn’t see you asking for companies… in the EU we generally just hire people and pay them a wage instead of exploiting them…

[near ocean]

It'd probably be easier if you do the search on linkedin/indeed/etc instead of discord

[atomic roost]

It's hard because I'm only on third year of engineering school with 1 year experience in apprenticeship

Many companies prefer final year student for internship and for at least 3 months... However I have only 2 months available

[fervent wadi]

sir , I have recently started coding , could you provide me some guidelines so that i can learn python

[sleek egret]

yar

[sleek egret]

bah, exploiting people is what makes the world go round

[zealous path]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[fervent wadi]

okay

[fervent wadi]

thank you

[errant jacinth]

Are my projects that I build outside of Workin hours also owned by the company?

[vapid jay]

check your contract

normally it shouldnt unless u use resources from your company

[errant jacinth]

There aren't any details regarding the intellectual property of models that I build, but I saw an article about the company being able to sue for the ownership of side projects that the developer came up and working on during their off days

I don't use any company resource, as I usually use my own machine to work on whatever side projects I have to not get it mixed with company stuff

My employer shouldn't have any legal leverage to claim anything, right?

[vapid jay]

i don't think so but you should ask with your boss to be sure

[errant jacinth]

Right, I'll send him a text

[sleek egret]

it depends on the laws where you live

and your contract, of course

[dreamy shadow]

Read your offer letter + any other NDAs you may have signed. It'll be in there.

[smoky quest]

• Anyone can sue anyone for any reason. So it's not because they shouldn't that they wouldn't
• Make sure it's on your own time, resources and is unrelated to the company's business (check your contract and with a lawyer)

[zealous topaz]

is it bad to send resume in pdf to someone who's interested in my experience over linked in message? The company I work for has restriction to use ppt for resume (filled with extreme amounts of texts; no room for graphics)

[leaden jasper]

The company's "resume" thing feels like an internal thing, not something to share externally unless it's for talks or something. Are you looking at getting a new job or something else?

[zealous topaz]

getting a new job.

[leaden jasper]

I don't see why you would use your existing company's template/requirement for trying to get a different job

[true harness]

most forms probably don't even allow powerpoint..

[smoky quest]

The standard in the industry is to use a one page pdf for resumes.
doc files used to be more prevalent but even them got a lot less popular in favor of pdf

[dreamy shadow]

PDF prevents the shady recruiter from adding skills/editing your resume and applying to a job for you.

[zealous topaz]

thanks!

[still condor]

powerpoint?

[still condor]

🤔 what do you mean

[dreamy shadow]

Exactly as written. If the recruiter's from some firm looking to fill, they'll take your resume. Edit it and hand in as a possible candidate.

[still condor]

How would a PDF stop you from doing that?

[dreamy shadow]

https://www.insidercareerstrategies.com/blog/hey-that-recruiter-edited-my-resume
It makes it harder where it's not worth the time.

[still condor]

You can edit PDFs, and even if you couldn't somehow, you can still manipulate images with something like... paint

though that would be a stupid thing to do, since it doesn't really change much, and it's very likely to come up on the actual interview/job

[dreamy shadow]

See above.

[polar basin]

I always have used pdfs. Many recruiters asked for the CV in Word fomat precisely because they wanted to hide the personal details (in case the employer decided to bypass the recruiter). I only once got asked if I could provide a redacted CV

[true harness]

how are recruiters paid? this tactic would only work if recruiters are paid based on like, interviews or something, but that doesn't make any sense

[dreamy shadow]

There's a lot of variables. Depends if the recruiter's working for a firm (e.g. zip recruiter) or is part of the company's internal talent seeker. A outside firm generally gets paid upon providing a valid candidate that meets the set of requirements. Generally, internal company HR won't do something dumb. But an recruiter from an outside firm might. If they were paid per valid resume. Long term wise, it's bad for both the candidate & the hiring company.

I generally avoid recruiters and apply directly to the company website. I'll provide a word doc version (which I've read is better for ATS) if it's directly via the company website. Otherwise, my resume to someone directly is always a PDF.

[true harness]

i'm just wondering what the point of doing that is. surely they're not being paid per person that gets interviewed, that wouldn't make any sense

[dreamy shadow]

Might not be paid per person, but will reflect on reviews. Having to bring X resumes/candidates in.

[vapid jay]

hi

[dreamy shadow]

Obviously, good recruiters will never pull this BS. But I still use PDF for the same reason I wear a seat-belt on the road.

[vapid jay]

I have a program , can you help me with it

i am learning python

[dreamy shadow]

#1035199133436354600 Go there if it's program specific, or general questions: #python-discussion

[vapid jay]

i am building a program to learn irregular verbs

can i show you

[delicate bane]

bruh

that would be a nightmare if i was in a situation like that with a hiring manager

[true harness]

but wouldn't that happen even if they didn't edit their resume?

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, I haven't been in that situation yet. I keep my own resume on hand + copies if in person or having it available for video ones.

[dreamy shadow]

Not if your candidate doesn't check all the boxes. e.g.:
Hiring company: Masters + 5 YoE w/ experience in AWS S3, Python (Pandas, Pyspark), Tablau
Resume on hand: Masters + YoE w/ experience in AWS S3, Python (Pandas).

Ok, I'll just add on Pyspark and tablau and submit this as a valid candidate.

To the recruiter, they might not understand adding X, Y, Z to the resume implies knowing X amount of more things.

[true harness]

ah, i see. so they're paid based on how many of these resumes they can find and submit

[dreamy shadow]

Might not be exactly commission based, but there's definitely a correlation between performance/pay + providing X # of "viable" candidates.

[true harness]

are you a recruiter / have you heard from recruiters saying other recruiters do this? you're a developer right?

i mean 🤔 there isn't really any downside to always using pdfs. i was already doing that. just don't want to pass on inaccurate info if i see someone using word docs lol

[polar basin]

I'm pretty sure recruiters get paid a proportion of the salary they place someone in - so it's in their interests to get you the best salary they can.

(at least here, in the UK)

[dreamy shadow]

I'm not a recruiter. Technically not a developer either. #JustDSThings But these are fairly well known. (https://recruitment.com/process/recruiter-salary)
In addition to above, some places will have contracts that state if the candidate doesn't say for X months, the recruiter won't get their cut.

One main advantage for PDFs is your resume will look the same on all devices. Formatting doesn't always work the same for word. Not being able to cut your contact info + edit your resume are just additional benefits.

[delicate bane]

#JustDSThings 💀

[delicate bane]

also this is smart. theres def times where the HR person may not have forwarded your resume to the hiring manager. may or may not be speaking from experience

[smoky quest]

internal recruiters are paid on a salary.
external recruiters are paid when the candidate gets hired (and sometimes have a retainers and sometimes the candidate needs to be there for X months)

[delicate bane]

are those X months typically like 6 months or 12 months or more

[smoky quest]

there is no specific numbers. It could even be 2months

[sacred lotus]

Have a French people here ?

[buoyant seal]

Working for French company without knowing French language counts? 😄

[sacred lotus]

Yeah just I need help

[near ocean]

Help with?

[buoyant seal]

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources/guides/asking-good-questions/
Recommending to read this awesome guide and asking questions in the way u can be helped.

Make some effort, ask question instead of asking to ask
Explain your problem, explain what u really wish to achieve, and show in text examples without screenshots what you made so far

Otherwise, very difficult to help person without knowing anything. Probably requires to be psionic mind reader across half of a planet strength to help in such unknown situations

[sacred lotus]

A python code

[near ocean]

This is not the channel for python help, try #python-discussion or #1035199133436354600

[sacred lotus]

Ok

[true harness]

that's what i thought, but then why would there be an incentive to do this resume editing skyglow and that article are talking about?

[summer roost]

External recruiters are typically paid a commission that's some percentage of the placed candidate's annual salary

[true harness]

but that shouldn't incentivize a recruiter to make an applicant more appealing, right? they wouldn't get through the interview

[summer roost]

I have heard of unscrupulous recruiters editing resumes. Presumably they're treating it as a numbers game. If any given candidate has a higher chance of getting interviewed if they doctor the resume, and doctoring the resume doesn't drastically reduce the chance of a candidate passing an interview, then doctoring resumes can maximize the chances of one of the recruiter's candidates getting hired, even if it's slightly harmful to each individual candidate

[true harness]

hmmm. that does make sense i guess 🤔

[spark cobalt]

There's even staffing agencies that do "resume help" which is essentially just lying about YOE and training you how to back up your lies.

An example of this in the US is Beaconfire Solutions.

[vapid jay]

Hello has anyone here built an api from a smartwatch to an app?

[smoky quest]

There is also the case of contracting agencies. As a user, you may need some android engineer and a less scrupulous agency who may not have that on hand may try to give you someone who may not have all the skills and pass them as someone experienced with these skills

[white gorge]

what does the typical programmer get paid yearly?

[smoky quest]

they typically get paid a mix of salary (cash), equity and bonuses (equity and/or cash)

[white gorge]

what would be a typical salary, nothing special. from what I hear, would be around $70k USD?

[smoky quest]

it depends on the education level, location, experience, skills, impact, scope, etc.
So it could go from very little to a lot

[white gorge]

i'm going for at least a bachelor in programming so was curious what i may be making out the door

[smoky quest]

right now, that would be looking for _ at least_ 100k$. A bit more if in a HCOL

[white gorge]

thanks

[white relic]

I think 85k is more realistic for an initial salary unless you are in an expensive area. Check the Bureau of Labor Statistics for US numbers and be mindful you won't be starting at the median but more toward the lower end of the scale until you have a few years experience

[smoky quest]

I have only seen 85k on the non-tech companies that are pretty old though. I would not consider that as "the market".
Tech companies will be on >100k

[summer roost]

the answer might well be different in 4 years once they've got the degree, anyway 🤷‍♂️

[smoky quest]

yeah, there are some nuances into that too. A react dev will have less wiggle room than someone working on something more theoretical and more difficult to hire for

[summer roost]

and the salary range for software engineers is incredibly wide. I'm not sure there's many other professions where it's anywhere near as wide - maybe investment bankers and lawyers... And I suppose professional athletes and actors/actresses (celebrities in general, really)

it's not an exaggeration to say that someone doing frontend web dev might literally be making 10% of what some engineers at Google are making

[smoky quest]

Also be aware that tech companies will literally target something like 75%-tile of the market.
So is 100k the average? definitely no. Non-tech companies will happily not target that
But does it mean they shouldn't aim for that? Definitely no as well.
In terms of tech companies, the market is the 75%-tile

[summer roost]

sure, totally. I just think it's very hard to answer a question like what the typical programmer gets paid, just because there's so many different factors at play. I'm sure there's software devs in the US making $50k, and I'm sure there's software devs in the US making $1M, and there's so much space in between. Even accounting for YOE, it's an incredibly wide range

[smoky quest]

the bar is very simple though: apply to a tech company with a bsc degree. That's it. If you apply and you pass*, you are in.

Expectations are those of a bsc holder. There is nothing crazy about it

[white relic]

🤷‍♂️ BLS is not cooperating with me right now but I don't think the numbers bear out 100k as a starting salary even in tech. Unless you are in California which admittedly is a lot of tech companies.

[smoky quest]

california has had the entry level set to ~120-130k base for a few years now.

[summer roost]

we've had this conversation here before, and it's tricky to make any conclusions because the BLS job codes aren't sufficiently granular. IIRC they group software testers and some other stuff into the same category code as software engineers

and even then, I don't know that looking at the average paints the true story, either, since I think the salary distribution for software devs is bimodal - I think there's probably a peak in the $125k-$175k range, and another peak in the $300k-$400k range

[white relic]

Yes, but recursive's numbers are consistently the highest of the lot

[spark cobalt]

Recursive big boi

[smoky quest]

tbh, that has been the norm across all the tech companies I know about in my network.
I doubt having dozens of tech companies paying 100k make them on the top end, especially how public they are or well known they are

but yeah, I will happily concede I am more familiar with the higher mode of the bimodals 😉

Also to be clear, this is not even the top end. At my company, we pay more than the numbers I have given out

[summer roost]

I also know people with < 3 YOE who've landed >$200k jobs at companies that I wouldn't consider to be "tech companies". But I also recognize that I might just be extrapolating from anecdotes on that.

I sort of wonder how much of the low average reported by BLS is caused by people who've been in industry for 20 years getting paid rates that entry level devs are commanding without realizing it...

the US culture of not talking about salaries really benefits employers, who may be able to retain talent for rates far below the market if people don't realize that they're being underpaid

[smoky quest]

yeah and mixing titles and laundering titles too!

The only thing I can say is that there were quite a few public companies targeting the median salary and were offering 100k$ across all the USA, 3 years ago 😉
So my recommendation to entry level engineers is to aim high and see how far they can go. Maybe they will have to settle for less, but they won't know until they try

[white relic]

I mean, it's not just BLS, that just seems to me like the most reliable source. At least when their website is working.
Glassdoor has 96 as "entry level software engineer" in Washington DC which is not a LCOL area

But yes we've had this discussion before. There's no harm in aiming high

[white gorge]

my perspective is that the amount of "project job openings" for programmers is supposed to grow exponentially, so unless the amount of programmers grows at the same rate, the average "salary" should only grow from here

[smoky quest]

it's supply and demand. So it's a function of demand but also of the skills available

To that end, we may see a lot of bootcamp folks coming in, but they can't command the salary than folks with more skills/education

[summer roost]

And we might see that developers get better tools that allow one future developer to do the work of many present developers. That's one possible direction AI might take us in: making software devs more productive by doing some of the more repetitive, simpler parts for them

Assuming exponential increases in the amount of software that needs developing also translates to exponential increases in the number of software developers seems naive to me

It shouldn't be particularly controversial to suggest that tomorrow's devs will be more productive than today's, either. We're still in the early days of computing, and if you look at the tools used 20 years ago vs today, it's a massive difference that allows huge productivity gains. And similar things happened in other nascent industries. Compare the productivity of a coal miner in 1850 to 1950, for instance...

[white gorge]

good point, although from a healthcare perspective, there have been tons of advancements yet doctors are still needed like crazy

[white gorge]

I don't think it's naïve to argue that with an increase in world population, there should be an increase in doctors needed to perform operations

[summer roost]

I think there are intrinsic differences between doctors and software developers that limit the degree to which productivity can be improved for the former group.

Technology has largely focused on improving doctors' ability to treat successfully, rather than improving their ability to treat quickly.

[white relic]

A doctor can only perform one procedure or diagnose one patient at a time. A software engineer's job is essentially the same whether their work product is used by 100 people or by 100,000

And most people use the same software as many other people. there's not an obvious scaling by population size there

[white gorge]

A doctor typically does the same surgeries over and over again

Of course there are differences between software engineers and doctors, it's an example of supply and demand. If tech keeps evolving then we will need developers, like if population keeps growing we need more doctors or farmers or whatever

[summer roost]

You don't seem to have acknowledged or responded to any of trentj's or my points

[white gorge]

I don't think either of you understand what I'm saying

[summer roost]

What makes you think that?

[white gorge]

you're arguing that if more software needs to be developed, it doesn't necessarily mean we need more software devs

[summer roost]

That's what I'm arguing, yeah. And trentj is arguing that it's not a given that the amount of software that needs to be developed will grow at a super linear rate.

[white gorge]

i don't think trentj, you or i could predict the future. do you think right now there's enough devs for the amount that's needed?

[summer roost]

You said "supposed to grow exponentially". Did you actually mean exponentially, or were you using "exponentially" colloquially to just mean "a lot"?

[white relic]

I'm questioning the premise: the assumption that software development as a field will continue to grow like it has isn't something we can take for granted.

[spark cobalt]

There's something you're ignoring.

Our medical field has made enormous advances in terms of studies into how to lengthen your lifespan, how to live a long and healthy life, etc. By definition, following these advances, each individual should require less attention from each doctor, which is a far bigger decrease than whatever increased attention you can get from the growing population. (Biggest issue is people don't. A capitalistic society starts seriously suffering when the population doesn't perform actions in getting the most money as possible, an intrinsic flaw of capitalism. )

Why can't the same be for software engineering?

Tech advancements have also enabled solo developers to build amazing things by themselves, and have it be pushed to the world for millions to use.

Supply and demand also works with how companies hire employees. We are more efficient if we're able to do the same task with less people/less time. Much of this was in thanks to advancement of technologies.

For example, recently we're seeing studies showing growing efficiency in remote work. Assuming these studies are true and practical (just saying this because I haven't delved into the research a lot), 99 remote workers vs 100 on site workers would help with costs a lot. And by then, employers don't need to hire that many people for the same task.

[patent grove]

is 107k for new grad data engineer in bay a lowball offer

[spark cobalt]

Lower than average probs.

[white relic]

This channel is not for that, see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[sleek egret]

hi ho

what if you're one of the 99% not in the bay area?

[frosty cove]

then congratulations are in order

[white gorge]

oh yes sorry, world hunger is cured (quick google search shows how world hunger is even on the rise again...)

marvelous insight... 🤨 especially considering how expensive food has gotten

[white gorge]

even with the invention of drills surgeons are still limited to the amount of people they can see, yes obviously efficiency and productivity will go up. however, to say that the efficiency and productivity future devs will have will outweigh the demand is pure speculation @summer roost

from my understanding programmers can only read one line of code at a time, or am I wrong about that too?

[white gorge]

there's a difference between being optimistic and taking things for granted 🙂

[buoyant seal]

Will it grow or will it not.
As of today, demand in skilled Devs is pretty high that is what important
At the level of constant and very frequent bombardment from recruiters to all Devs which are already having jobs

So, assuming that some person qualifications only grows with time, it looks to me like pretty safe career so far

[white relic]

the point is, it's just as much speculation to say that demand will continue to rise in proportion to supply. Software developers are in high demand now relative to 10 years ago, in 10 years from now, it may swing back the other way.

I should say skilled software developers are in high demand. There's no shortage of bootcamps.

[white gorge]

not really, it's pretty logical to say that as the supply of human beings grows then the demand for food will grow, no matter how much efficiency or productivity we gain through technological advancement, the demand should continue to grow until we can produce food out of thin air.

to predict we will become so advanced that the job will become obsolete is a lot more speculative than a linear supply to demand ratio

[leaden raven]

hell

helllo

[white relic]

nobody is saying that

[white gorge]

obviously there's no shortage of idiots, that's why this conversation is even a thing

[white gorge]

it's the basis of yours, melios, wilders and godlygeek's claims

[leaden raven]

Where should i start in python

what is the demand of Customer Success Engineers in upcomming days?

[sleek egret]

Just because demand for food grows doesn't mean demand for farmers grows

[white gorge]

right, maybe demand for cows, or pigs, or whatever you eat grows

[sleek egret]

dietary fashion changes

[white gorge]

not everyone eats farmed food lol

[sleek egret]

for example, did you know that china grows something like 70% of all watermelons in the world?

30 years ago, it was like 5%. 30 years from now, it could be back to 10%. hard to say

[white relic]

Uh, no, but if you choose to ignore the things we actually said, I don't suppose it is productive to continue the discussion.

[sleek egret]

anyway, demand for programmers may rise. it may fall. one cannot know. if you want to base your future career choices on such speculation, you are free to do so.

I fail to see the point in trying to convince others here that one's own speculation is correct.

[white gorge]

same, i just gave my perspective and a mod was quick to call me naive when i just said my understanding is that the "project job openings" are supposed to grow exponentially

i think if you disagree or have a different perspective you can just say that

[west badger]

Can I get into good universities in US as an international student if i have a gpa of 3.5 in high school

[sleek egret]

It depends

you will have to take a standardized test called the "SAT" and may want to take the "AP Test" in a variety of subjects as well.

[west badger]

ik but asking for the gpa thing

[sleek egret]

The US has no single pre-university education system, it has 10's of thousands of them. Each has different grading standards (or even no grades at all). Thus, GPA, while taken into account, is not really that important.

[sleek egret]

US Universities do not know that 3.5 at your school is 3.0 at another school or 4.0 at another school or 2.5 at yet another school

[west badger]

i am nnot from US(keep in mind)

[sleek egret]

I know. you said that. so for the third time, GPA is not that important.

your SAT scores will matter much more

[west badger]

alright thanks so i have one last question where should i prepare for my sat?

[sleek egret]

there are tons of online resources to prep for the SAT

there are also tutors that you can pay. and books. and videos. etc, etc.

I hope you're talking about university in 2024 because Fall 2023 admission is essentially done already.

[brave bridge]

i threw my degree paper away and just realized i dont have it in digital form
is having a degree in digital form a thing in other countries?
or is it usually always paper only?

[sleek egret]

if an employer wants to check, most employers will simply check with the university

[brave bridge]

hmm maybe us thing?

[sleek egret]

<shrug>

[brave bridge]

im pretty sure i would not be considreed even if i dont attach my degree as pdf or smth?

[brave bridge]

what it mean?

[sleek egret]

I mean I don't know

[sleek egret]

you don't attach your degree to a job application in any form in the USA

[west badger]

2025

[sleek egret]

Good, then you have plenty of time to prep (and improve your GPA 🙂

[west badger]

yeah ig

[summer roost]

demand for food has grown exponentially, but the number of people it takes to produce that food has steadily fallen for centuries - for all of human history, really, from the hunter/gatherer phase where every employed human was working in food production, to now where about 1 in 4 people worldwide work in agriculture (and much less than that in developed countries).

[sleek egret]

it's not even close to 1 in 4

more like 1 in 10 globally. in developed nations, like 1 in 100 or 200.

[summer roost]

I got 1 in 4 from https://migration.ucdavis.edu/rmn/blog/post/?id=2510 - estimates based on World Bank data put it at around 1 in 8 according to https://blog.resourcewatch.org/2019/05/30/map-of-the-month-how-many-people-work-in-agriculture/

regardless, as the number of humans has grown exponentially, the number of humans producing food has fallen exponentially, so whether it's 1 in 4 or 8 or 10 or 100, that point holds.

[sleek egret]

almost all that decline is in the last 100 years

[brave bridge]

interesting

[summer roost]

perhaps, but it was declining even before that, literally for all of human history. Every time we added new jobs that weren't food production, the percentage of people working in food production dropped. Standing armies, merchant guilds, textiles, construction, weaving, making ceramics, etc, etc - every new specialization that was ever added throughout human history was enabled by a smaller share of the population producing enough food for the rest.

[sleek egret]

you get paid by getting a job. but as you say, you're underage so that's not really gonna fly. when you enter university, you could try for internships.

standing armies were very rare before about 200 years ago

[summer roost]

what country are you in? 17 year olds can legally work in every country I can think of...

[vapid jay]

Nepal

[sleek egret]

and you have it backwards. those specializations did not allow a smaller share of agriculture. it was improved efficiency in agriculture that enabled those specializations.

[summer roost]

that's what I said.

[sleek egret]

oh sorry. that means I was an idiot who read too quickly and did not understand what you wrote. I appologize.

[brave bridge]

!rule 4

[inner wren]

Rules

4. Use English to the best of your ability. Be polite if someone speaks English imperfectly.

[sleek egret]

nous ne parlez pas francaise

[swift sigil]

oui oui baguette

[swift sigil]

nous ne parlons pas français*

[sleek egret]

mangez moi

[summer roost]

!rule 6 as well

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[pine sleet]

je ne parle pas francais

[brave bridge]

is fiverr/upwork stuff recommendable in general to get a little money?

[sleek egret]

you have the best emotes

[pine sleet]

[swift sigil]

si tu veux mdr

[summer roost]

I don't think so. The pay distribution for freelance jobs is bimodal - people with lots of skills can make a lot of money as freelancers, but people at the entry level often wind up working for below minimum wage after factoring in time spent finding contracts and negotiating. You wind up competing with people in countries with a lower cost of living than yours who can do the same work as you for a fraction of what it would take for it to be worth it for you.

[summer roost]

You must speak English on this server. You will be muted if you won't.

[sleek egret]

No offense to nepali's but it's pretty hard to find places with lower cost of living and decent internet access

[sleek egret]

iow, he's one of the people in countries with a lower cost of living

[vapid jay]

Also too add (with no opportunities)

[swift sigil]

the french is the best language (but isn't big deal)

[vapid jay]

and thats all what matters most

[sleek egret]

hey, it could be worse. there are lots of places worse on the earth.

[summer roost]

ah - I thought I was answering for Aranea, not Jenish Karki. The calculus about whether freelancing at the entry level is worthwhile might indeed change if you're in a low cost of living country.

[sleek egret]

dammit, I got people mixed up again

unless maybe Aranea is also from Tibet?

[vapid jay]

i know
I was asking where can i find clients like on one to one because
Suppose a person lives in america
and he hires me to do a work for $1
i won't be able to get that $1 because of the corrupted systems here

No offence 🤚🏻 Sorry I am out
Thanks for your help🙏

[sleek egret]

good luck

[buoyant seal]

international money transfer is another headache.
that is why people have essentially two choices

1. opening some kind of individual enterpreneurship, and having international contracts with obligations for direct bank trasnfer wires.
   Obvious this choice is kind of having sense only for major enough clients, not for very small 5$ effort.
2. For super small deals, freelancing web sites, serve as money transfering platform as well. You just need to make sure, you qualify to get money out of their system to your money place

Essentially => rules for international money transfers are very strict. Because you need to prove that money movement happens not because of some money laundering/scam operations

that is why you need to be legal person, or being depended on legal person that solves those problems for you.
in second choice there is still a problem of how Freelancer laws behave in your country, may be you are obligated to pay taxes out of this income, may be not. Every country has its own specifics

[white gorge]

ok? like i've said it's just speculation. you decided for some reason to call what i was saying naive when i was only saying what my understanding was.

ok?? that didn't address my point about world hunger being on the rise again

[sly sigil]

عرب ؟

[summer roost]

I said that it seems naive to me. That's my own speculation. I've seen no reason to believe that the number of programming jobs is increasing faster than the number of programmers. If anything, I suspect that the opposite is the case, and the number of people entering the field is growing faster than the number of jobs.

[vapid jay]

Hi guys I'm a python newbie who just started studying and I wanna start a career by studying more about python and any other stuff. Can anybody teach me what pathways are out there?

[white gorge]

You're entitled to your own opinion, there's just a certain attitude you can have towards other people that show whether or not you respect their opinion. Calling someone's opinion naive is not respectful at all.

If you're gonna say someone's understanding is stupid or "naive" from the get go, I don't think that's initiating a very productive conversation. Especially if you're a moderator of a very big discord.

[stuck cedar]

Hey guys

[summer roost]

respectfully, if you're taking this much offense to someone criticizing your idea, it doesn't seem like you were prepared to engage in a productive conversation.

[summer roost]

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d21/tables/dt21_325.35.asp from the US National Center for Education Statistics says that the number of US graduates with bachelors degrees in the "computer and information sciences" increased by an average of approximately 9.4% per year in the 2010's (for a 145% increase total across the decade).
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics says that the number of Software Developers in the US is expected to rise about 25% from 2021 through 2031. 25% growth over 10 years is approximately 2.25% growth each year (assuming uniform growth).

So, historically, the rate of degrees being conferred has been growing at around 9.4% per annum, and the job market is projected to expand at around 2.25% per annum going forward. Supply seems to be increasing faster than demand, which would be expected to drive salaries down.

Granted, these numbers aren't exactly comparable. Not everyone with a degree in the "computer and information sciences" will specifically go on to become a "software developer". But it is suggestive of supply beginning to outstrip demand, at least.

[spark cobalt]

This contradicts your whole point since we produce food for 10b+ people yearly.

What's lacking isn't farmers.

Oh it's probably more now. 10b number was from a decade ago lol.

Maybe it shrunk a little from the war but point still remains that we produce way more than enough food for the entire human population

[spark cobalt]

Population isn't the only factor is what everyone's trying to say.

What about our current recession?

[summer roost]

we're not in a recession...

[spark cobalt]

[white gorge]

if we were i don't think @summer roost would even know

[summer roost]

It's pretty easy to Google that one.

[white gorge]

you know how to use google? 😮

[peak halo]

Why are you making condescending remarks about one of our moderators?

[white gorge]

idk, why was he so quick to call me naive

[summer roost]

You'll note that I've been trying to back up all of my responses with data and examples. You made a wild guess about trends, ignored every response explaining why that guess might not match reality, and ignored every piece of concrete data presented to you.

So I've changed my mind, I now think you're willfully ignorant, rather than just naïve.

[white gorge]

cognitive bias at it's finest

you made your mind up from the beginning, if you didn't disrespect me from the start this conversation would've been a lot different

i didn't make a wild guess, i said what my understanding was and you called it naive. my understanding was what i said it was because it's what i've been told by numerous people. you just wanted to take a shit on me lmao

[peak halo]

you're ascribing rudeness to his initial choice of word (naive) that isn't necessarily there. if you want people to engage with your ideas, you have to be prepared for them to use negative descriptors to convey that they disagree. and "naive" is a far cry from "idiotic".

[white gorge]

call it what you want lol

you can sugar coat things a lot of different ways, just because not everyone picks up on it doesn't mean some people won't

i'm just giving advice on how to have a more productive conversation in the future

[white gorge]

that's the whole point of passive aggressiveness, isn't it? "isn't necessarily there" 🙂

[smoky quest]

It might be a good time to just drop that conversation. It has been off-topic for a while and is not going in any direction

[white gorge]

it's just funny how people still find a way to come at me with insults and shit when this is my third time saying it's speculation either way

But hey, that's all this conversation has been anyways so

Thanks for the reality check @smoky quest

[delicate bane]

today me and my friends met up and we talked about the power of a network in someone's career. we basically concluded we all probably need to expand our network lol

[spark cobalt]

Getting into arguments online is such a good way to network

[spark cobalt]

Is most of your networking (besides work) happening at going to conferences?

[delicate bane]

that and sometimes linkedin

[spark cobalt]

[white gorge]

people still talkin shit

🥶

[white gorge]

yall mfs funny

[spark cobalt]

That wasn't really specifically targetted to you, since I participated as well. Calm down lol, it's just a joke.

[white gorge]

gosh you're such a clown

[near ocean]

Move on please, the topic is networking and how to do it effectively

[white gorge]

🩰

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384>

[neat grove]

!mute 178696195797942272

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @white gorge until <t:1676765242:f> (1 hour).

[spark cobalt]

For conferences, is it just like you network during the downtime kind of thing? Or do they generally designate time for networking and whatnot.

[ivory sluice]

what plans have you made to this end?

[white relic]

It depends on the conference, but I went to one last year and did some networking both in the interstices between oral sessions and during poster sessions. Lot of it happened in the poster sessions.

(200 people with posters about their work in a big hall and everyone else just kind of milling about)

[spark cobalt]

Sounds fun! Thanks for the info

[near ocean]

Are these kinds of things free?

[white relic]

no, but I didn't pay for it 😆

I don't know what the conference cost, but less than the flight+hotel

[near ocean]

How do people usually attend then? @spark cobalt said he went to a couple when job searching but these ticket prices im seeing are sky high

[white relic]

admittedly the conference was in Hawaii this year so trip prices weren't exactly typical

[spark cobalt]

Ah no. I went to dev meetups, not conferences when I moved to SJ. They're typically free and I just found some frequent ones on Meetup.com/Eventbrite. (The ones I went to were free.)

[near ocean]

Im looking at europython 2022 right now and a personal ticket for the conference was 375€

[rotund kindle]

Wait, what conference is in Hawaii this year?

[white relic]

this is (I've already doxxed myself enough on this server I suppose) the biggest conference in a fairly niche area of applied physics. Not software oriented.

[spark cobalt]

Just the issue with some of these dev meetups is it's networking but not exactly networking with developers with a unified interest in a same technology.

So the dev meetup I went to in San Jose that happens almost everyday is called startup to IPO, but in reality it's just like 10 or so developers coming to hang out everyday.

[rotund kindle]

Gotcha. I live on the Big Island, and Covid pretty much killed the local dev meetups, so my ears pricked up at the idea of a local Python conference.

[white relic]

ah, sorry to disappoint

[spark cobalt]

Networking still happens, but it's not as focused in terms of discussions as it may be in a conference. (i.e., a React conference will probably have discussions relating to market of web development and frontend development, upcoming and rising new technologies to look at, etc. )

But to answer your question, there wasn't a signup or anything, you just showed up for the ones I went to. (They were more small scaled, not super organized just hangouts.)

[near ocean]

London dev community seems kind of limp ngl
Better luck next time i guess

[delicate bane]

at the recent conference, it was more of hallway type of conversations, different type of lunches, happy hour, and some networking things before and after the conference

[delicate bane]

putting me on the spot, mina uhhhh let me get back to you. for now i just have it on my goal tracker app

[delicate bane]

really - there were peeps talking about some london data conference that seemed pretty popular

dont ask me what it was called. they just kept mentioning "the london conference"

[delicate bane]

wait you cant just ask that and only react. @ivory sluice what plans have you made

[ivory sluice]

moving out to the almost-middle-of-nowhere so uh, plans in the negative direction

i've been very lucky though that thru my company's acquisition and working with so many new people (new hires and new vendors) i've kind of passively networked. nothing like what you guys are describing though

[delicate bane]

hey that counts. and i dont think you should discount the power of networking through online platforms. in-person i feel is a different type of networking and falls in a different bucket

[ivory sluice]

but i am selectively adding on linkedin the superstar type people i'm meeting, definitely have much more exposure to talent than i did before

[delicate bane]

thats pretty neat

[worldly hound]

I live somewhere pretty far from any real job-hub and was just wondering, what should I do if I'm looking to move over to this career field? Should I move to somewhere with a better job market first? How would Gary from random, Kentucky get a software dev job?

[stoic relic]

Hello everyone, I'm new to python, and am looking to learn it to start earning some money, the problem is, I don't really know what direction to go in, I don't have a goal per say, getting a job is my goal. Math isn't my strong suit, so I'm thinking web development would be my best bet, but I'm not sure what else there is.

I'm also concerned with the idea of AI wiping out the need for most programmers, is this a legit concern?

[fathom hemlock]

no

[stoic relic]

is there a demand for web developers or is it declining?

[true harness]

there are tons of areas that don't need as much math as AI, though that would kinda depend on what you mean by "math isn't my strong suit"

[stoic relic]

I'm not the best at math, the less math the better.

[true harness]

arguably, all of programming uses math

[smoky quest]

It depends on your situation.
If you are in HS or college age, aiming for a CS degree would be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation. So then the question would become about your current access to such education

[stoic relic]

I'm almost 39

oh my bad that reply wasn't to me lol

[smoky quest]

indeed, that changes things and the path becomes a lot more difficult.
That becomes now a re-conversion .

Job ads do receives thousands of applications where most of them have degrees, projects and internships. So that will be your competition and how will you stand out?
Some areas of investigation:

• Maybe your professional experience could be leveraged in some way? It may not be tech based but based on the domain
• Building a portfolio of projects to demonstrate you have the skills to do what it takes
• Investigating the paths of least resistance for self-taught. In general that's frontend development
• Investigating your local job center for formations and also bootcamps

[true harness]

also, the less math an area requires, the less it gets paid, for writing software, at least

[worldly hound]

I'm 25 and I've been in and out of college due to financial issues...really just looking to get my foot in the door. I have been looking at postings near me and it seems like either "senior" developer roles or sketchy "remote opportunities". I feel like if I move to Denver/Boston/Chicago/Seattle/CA, my chances of finding a lower-tiered job would skyrocket...just don't know how much I should know before I can safely assume I can find a job within 3-ish months of moving somewhere new..

[smoky quest]

If you want the self taught path, you have to prepare yourself to do life in extreme hardcore mode.
You aren't the first one who is attracted to the field and since you would be self taught, the pool of potential applicants is so much greater!
To that end, see my other message #career-advice message

As a rule of thumb, if you start from zero knowledge, you should expect monthS (and even being ready to cross the year mark), to get hireable

[worldly hound]

Do you have any good book recommendations? Additionally, what sort of work should I be able to accomplish, would you say? Or should I study up on interviewing well to just get the job, and figure it out on the job? I feel like a lot of resources explain ideas, concepts, and methods, but I personally don't really understand what I should be able to "do" for a job.

[smoky quest]

We are talking about jobs for which people study full time 3-5 years full time. It's not the kind of skill you can speed run an interview and wing it on the job

[worldly hound]

No, that's not how I think. I just see so much emphasis on the interview, my point was "would being able to answer interview questions intuitively and quickly be a good indicator that I know what to do?"

[smoky quest]

The first thing I would recommend is to figure out your goal.
There are some lower skilled jobs that may interest you (but also lower pay) like:

• IT/desktop support
• network support
• manual QA

But besides that, you may want to try to learn a bit about frontend and make your own frontend to see how you like it and what it takes

[smoky quest]

the answer is no 😉
Interviews are designed to assess your skills in relation to the job. They will ask you to write code on the spot and describe complicated things

[smoky quest]

Also remember that each job ad gets thousands of applicants. No company will call you back for an interview without a proper resume that makes them want to talk to you

[worldly hound]

I actually did low-level IT at Amazon, but I'm really looking to get into development. So far I've been studying calculus, algorithms, and data structures. I find those interesting. I like thinking about the organization of data. I don't know enough to know what a job including that would look like. Also, sorry. I should really work on clearer communication. I /really/ meant if I could go on leetcode and code the problems off the top of my head, would /that/ be a good indicator I am probably ready?

[smoky quest]

https://roadmap.sh/frontend might be of help in terms of skills you would want to acquire

[smoky quest]

leetcode problems is just one facet. That would not get you into interviews, nor would they be sufficient to pass an interview

so think about leetcode as required but not sufficient 😉

[smoky quest]

Actually, having done low-level IT can be an advantage for you!
You could use that as a spring board to start diving more into automation and then fully transitioning into development. There are also roles called "devops" or "sre" which could be relevant to you

[worldly hound]

This roadmap site is super nice, thanks. Can I ask why you recommend front end?

[smoky quest]

It's the area of software development that is typically used as an entry point for self-taught engineers. The work is generally simpler and lower pay, but the overall pay is still pretty nice comparing to other jobs.
(note: there are also more technical frontend jobs with higher pay, but also higher requirements for entry)

@buoyant seal I was reading this: https://web.devopstopologies.com/ and I figured you may be interested in it.
I would be curious to hear (or rather read) your thoughts on this, and which one is your favorite 🙂

[worldly hound]

Alright, well thanks! Got lots to read up on now, haha.

[smoky quest]

Glad to be of help!
It's a fun area and journey! Don't hesitate and explore things

[vapid jay]

Yes i know that✌️ We can't even receive a $1 from abroad for that we must have a international bank account😅
Thank you @buoyant seal

[upbeat bone]

Hello,
I'm in a development boot camp right now. Going pretty well even though my back hurts lol. My question is: do you think it would be worth it to work on doing a computer science post-bacc for a few years after I finish the boot camp/after I start my first job? I think it would be beneficial to learn the more theoretical computer science stuff. I know I could self-study it as well, but this way I can include a CS degree on my resume. What are your thoughts/advice on the topic? Thank you 🙂

[peak halo]

knowing only what you've said in this comment, I'd wager that getting a CS post-bacc would have been a better first move than the boot camp. what is the subject matter of the boot camp?

(like, is it about web development, cloud computing, or what?)
also, do you have prior career experience?

[upbeat bone]

it's a full stack developer boot camp called coding temple in chicago

have prior career experience but not in a relevant field i was just doing office work

my bachelor's was in entrepreneurial management

[smoky quest]

It depends on what you want to do with it and your objectives. It can open more doors if you are interested in more theoretical aspects than webdev.
That said, doing a job AND getting a degree is a very difficult and time consuming endeavor.

[brazen comet]

Has anyone here gone through the ASU Computer Science B.S. program?

[smoky quest]

even if you are looking for people who specifically went through that program, it would save you a lot of time and energy to also ask your question

[brazen comet]

Well to put it bluntly, wanted to figure out someone's general experience with their program. I unfortunately don't have any college that offers the degree in person or online near me, so I settled with applying to ASU's CS degree pathway

Would've preferred the benefits of an in-person instruction, sadly it's not a possible option at my location

[smoky quest]

These are fair questions! Asking them now will save you some time as anyone from ASU won't have to feel responsible or ask you what you want to know about it. They can directly answer you

[vague willow]

Any success stories on escaping the wage cage without connections or degree? It just seems like you need 10 years experience, degree, and know someone to have any sort of career beyond low pay burn out jobs in retail, fast food or warehouse. Especially now with tech layoffs the odds are even more stacked

[smoky quest]

There are some people who did.
But it does take extraordinary effort and luck to stand out when job ads get thousands of applications from people with degrees, projects and internships

If you are in HS or college age, aiming for CS degree is the path of least resistance and most opportunities and compensation

[vague willow]

Appreciate the response. Yeah that seems like the consensus. Was just seeing if it possible to get without a CS. Atleast with python and some other languages you can build your own programs and bots for trading or other cases where you can make your own dimes if you had too lol

[smoky quest]

yeah, and that's also an avenue for you.
You could lower your expectations but use your skills to help adjacent businesses automate some of their processes

You can also use https://roadmap.sh/ to see the expectations in terms of skills

[summer roost]

getting a CS degree is a much safer path to high income than retail investing

[vague willow]

Thanks, I'll bookmark that. Or we can ask ChatGPT haha

[smoky quest]

if that was true, you wouldn't be asking about it here 😉

[brazen comet]

Funny enough, this was the path I originally wanted to take to follow a career path into Machine Learning, but with the necessity to learn an extensive list of math concepts such as linear algebra, I found the need to go back to school and learn these concepts. I thought I'd just get the degree anyway if it meant I had to do this to get ahead in a career

[vague willow]

Especially this last year. Was nimble enough to swap to JEPI and DIVO but my leaps options got destroyed otherwise I would have outperformed SPY

[vague willow]

degree can only make things easier I hear a lot of companies filter out non-degree applicants. AI and machine learning is a good field for a future proof job or at least until everything is automated

[summer roost]

if degrees weren't helpful, people wouldn't get them

[true harness]

maybe it's just a scam perpetuated by Big Uni ||/j||

[peak halo]

Even if earning a degree had no intrinsic meaning (which is what people imply when they refer to degrees as "a piece of paper"), as long as employers perceive them as qualifying one for their positions, they aren't a "scam"

[snow rapids]

I work in ML and i don't see that much math on daily basis. And when i see it i learn on as needed basis. Every job is different i know

[peak halo]

What was your path to your current position?

[snow rapids]

I have a technical degree just not in ML

[brazen comet]

That's interesting honestly. Though sadly as Stelercus mentioned, it's something that as part of a lot of degree programs it's a requirement to learn as part of the degree. I mean, it doesn't hurt to learn a bit about the concepts, and retouch on it if it ever comes up as part of the job requirement,

I will also say technical degrees are an exception to this.

[peak halo]

Which thing that I said are you referring to?

[brazen comet]

I was referring to what you stated that as long as employers perceive them as qualifying one for their positions, they aren't a "scam"

[snow rapids]

I have degree in electronics worked as quality engineer for a while. Statistical data analysis was part of my job. Learned python, ml in my free time and got my first job as ds couple years back.

[peak halo]

Interesting

[brazen comet]

As I nervously await whether I get admitted or not to this program at ASU, I'm just spending the off time improving my understanding of python for the time being

[snow rapids]

If you have Bachelor's degree then there's an option with WQU they offer free MSc in Financial Engineering. Looks a lot like Data science. I don't know anyone who did this program so can't comment really. https://www.wqu.edu/

[brazen comet]

That is very intriguing. And the fact that it's offered for free. Almost seems too good to be true

[snow rapids]

I had a lot of math at uni, but forgot most of it. But i think it's easier to get back to it than to learn from scratch now for me.

[snow rapids]

Yeah true. I did their applied DS course. It's free i can confirm :). You get a lot of assignments, video lectures . But also weekly online sessions with a teacher to ask questions, and forum to exchange knowledge.

Not sure what's their business model 🙂

[brazen comet]

I'll take note of this, though I'm not at a Master's level at the moment, I'll bookmark it 🙂

[woven apex]

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[woven apex]

#career-advice might not be the best place for these kinds of questions.

[west osprey]

thanks

[stone orchid]

should i switch to linux or mac if i plan to become a programmer?

[buoyant seal]

what will be your desired expertise, development of desktop applications for Windows (then choose Windows), Web development (then choose Linux), IOS/MacOS app development (then choose MacOS)?

or keep Windows with WSL2 for universal choice to delay choice for later. (it gives access to Windows and Linux at the same time)

Kind of wondering, what is best OS for android development

[true harness]

it doesn't matter

[white relic]

you can be a competent programmer on Windows only, but IMO it's worth learning other systems just so you know more what they are like.

[stone orchid]

i heard that linux is important for back end or hackkng or smth

[buoyant seal]

or at least Windows is a good most universal choice to cover majority of possible cases. therefore being good starting option for sure (for student in uni for example)

[white relic]

It's true a lot of web servers run linux, but 1) you can specialize in windows servers, lots of people do and 2) you might never write any web server anything, I never have

it's really about what you want to do with your career.

[buoyant seal]

ergh... Windows servers? that is less than 1% of modern infrastructure. That should not be seen as option for today i think. But that is not the topic of his question though

[buoyant seal]

https://www.enterpriseappstoday.com/stats/linux-statistics.html
Wait a second

I can't believe it. All graphics show that 70% of servers run WINDOWS? 🤯 i can't believe it

[true harness]

that's not right

[buoyant seal]

https://www.enterpriseappstoday.com/stats/linux-statistics.html
https://earthweb.com/operating-system-market-share/
https://www.itcandor.com/server-q219/
three different resouces claim the same

[buoyant seal]

the first resource from 2022, this one from 2019. but still.

[true harness]

either way. if you're "planning" to become a programmer, it doesn't really matter what you start out with

[buoyant seal]

https://www.enterpriseappstoday.com/stats/linux-statistics.html#:~:text=Linux is used to power,the world's top web servers.&text=In fact%2C 96.3%25 account for,%25)%20are%20the%20main%20players.

Linux is used to power 96.3% of the world’s top web servers.
Twitter, Yahoo!, and eBay are only a few on which the Linus operating system is run. This speaks volumes about the popularity of Linux. According to server statistics, Linux is becoming increasingly important on the internet. In fact, 96.3% account for the servers which use Linux and it is one of the top one million. Windows (1.9%), and FreeBSD 1.8%) are the main players.
(Source: ZDNet)

well, i will believe this one resource saying that Windows takes only 1.9% of server market share. Looks way more legit.

[sleek egret]

You may be conflating "web server" with "server"

[buoyant seal]

isn't it the same?

[sleek egret]

no

[buoyant seal]

when server is not a web server?

[sleek egret]

most servers are not web servers

[white relic]

that's at most two sources, since the first two links both claim the numbers came from Statista. The second one doesn't say where the numbers came from

[true harness]

this goes back to the "what is the web" discussion...

[white relic]

statista numbers are paywalled so it's impossible to say what they're counting. But the 1.9% figure has the same problem.

A better metric would be, how many job openings are there for Linux vs. Windows server administrators in your city/region

[sleek egret]

also, one was a report about "servers", and the other about "web servers"

I suspect the "servers" report included the huge market for small office servers that mostly do file sharing/print spooling/backups

[white relic]

very possible

[sleek egret]

that is 90%+ Windows and is HUGE. every office, every farm, every factory, every store

[buoyant seal]

oh right, there is just file sharing/print servers/backups servers indeed. considering that Windows dominates... desktop. we can be sure it is dominating as a server for park of desktop machines

[white relic]

fun fact, I championed porting our lab software (written in Python) to Linux because our IT pushes windows updates on Fridays and it interferes with automated testing

this is straying a bit tho

[sleek egret]

any excuse to move off of Windows is a good excuse, IMO

[woven citrus]

I'm trying to apply for an Data Operator internship role. Will putting this help me get hired?
https://github.com/domsalvador/pylinks
from the job post:
Proficient in Python and/or C++
Some basic knowledge of the financial market, ETFs and stock indexes are preferred [+]
Detail oriented and hard-working [+]

I think it helps because it shows I can filter specific links like this one, only goes for http and https links. But I'm not entirely sure. I just want to get some experience and learn python scripting while working.

[sleek egret]

It's unlikely they'll care about modules like pylinks too much. Do you know pandas and numpy? requests, websockets?

[woven citrus]

I have very limited experiences with all of that. Welp, ig time to put that in my todo list

[sleek egret]

they might care about pandas/numpy, but my guess is that they'll care more about your baseline programming skills and ability to learn new modules as necessary.

[woven citrus]

Learning new modules, I think I can learn all that. But the fact I'm saying "I can learn that as I desire to hone my programming skills" could/would leave a sour taste. should I just do it and apply? or learn first pandas and numpy first? @sleek egret

[sleek egret]

you won't be able to "learn pandas" in a few days if you have never used it before

[woven citrus]

ah crap. alright got something new to learn, thanks @sleek egret

[sleek egret]

assuming you get an interview. just display confidence that you will do whatever work it takes to learn whatever you need to learn for the job

they don't expect you to be super skilled for an internship position. that's why it's an "internship", after all 🙂

what they're looking for is knowledge of the basics of programming and a willingness/discipline/tenacity to learn what is necessary to complete your assignments

[woven citrus]

thank you very much. will put this into mind

[sleek egret]

that's not how it works

programming is like playing a musical instrument (or perhaps musical composition). anyone can learn to play an instrument on their own without formal education. similarly, anyone can learn to code on their own.

but if you want to get past just futzing around, to become truly "talented", a virtuoso. you need to learn the theory behind what you play. the why's and all the techniques developed over the centuries.

similarly, if you want to become a good programmer. one that is confident that can he can write pretty much anything. then you need to learn the theory behind it.

universities, in general, help you get a head start on the theory side. many assume you will learn the mechanics of coding on your own time. after all, any random kid can learn it on their own. how hard could it be?

[bitter storm]

yooo

[sleek egret]

during the course of your career, you will use many different programming languages. I myself have used C, C++, ObjectPascal, SQL, Javascript, Perl, Python, Hypertalk, Visual Basic, Java, C#, and probably a few more that I can't recall offhand.

Once you understand the theory, learning a new language is pretty strait-forward and simply. it's mostly just a matter of syntax.

it's a multi-year process. don't get frustrated that you're not a super-programmer in a few weeks or months

[bitter storm]

how similar is lua to python? I am just starting to dive into python because its actually a useful coding language lol. I learned to use LUA on roblox when i was younger and it really got me into coding. i taught myself lua and what i can see is that the languages look really similar.

[sleek egret]

any school that focuses on teaching a specific language will only teach theory as a side effect. that means you will be ignorant of large parts of CS theory

how old are you?

then finish high school, learn some programming practicalities while you're still in HS. then go to university and continue learning the practical stuff on your own.

then get a job. and continue learning.

suit yourself. but be aware that if you don't have a university degree, you will be in the bottom 1/2 of society and it will be more difficult for you to get a job. in addition, you will be locked out of many of the more serious programming career paths

lua is very similar to python

[bitter storm]

yeah. i used the roblox dev forums and i worked on a couple games

[sleek egret]

not the syntax, but the concepts

ok. I'm not your parent. do whatever you want.

no. not even close

to go back to my musical instrument analogy, it's like expecting that taking a few classes on playing guitar will "teach me everything"

there is only one way to get good at playing guitar|programming. that is practice. lots and lots of practice.

[bitter storm]

hey im terrible at paying attention to things and dedicating time but somehow i managed to teach myself to code. best move to make when you dont wanna take classes and you know youre interested enough is to teach yourself.

[sleek egret]

you need to write, edit, debug, modify code. then do it again. and again. and again.

anything is possible. but I doubt it.

[bitter storm]

bro youre gonna have times while coding where you almost break down into tears because it seems like youve tried everything 😂 . but then you realize the problem has been lying in front of you the whole time and you just missed the spacebar,

[sleek egret]

best of luck to you then

[sleek egret]

I both love and hate when that happens, lol

[delicate bane]

or view count/subscriber count

basically take everything on the internet with a grain of salt

[bitter storm]

anyways

can someone help me understand a little better how i should go about learning python. because i used lua strictly for game development. but i kinda want to do anything i want with python at some point, just dont know where to start

[sleek egret]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vapid jay]

to elaborate on this most languages are just taking features from FP, OOP, or procedural programming then have either dynamic types or static types

Helo

[vapid jay]

Hi

[sleek egret]

hi

[spark cobalt]

Hi

[sleek egret]

do you guys think this is the friendliest channel on the python server?

[umbral crag]

hi

[patent grove]

i got a base of 107k and nothing else to add to TC, i am trying to negotiate this offer -- any tips?

i have a YOE with the same company as an intern/part time, took a lowball offer on that as well but now im not trying to repeat the same mistake

[smoky quest]

https://automatetheboringstuff.com/ is a common learning resource.
There is also a roadmap to get a sense of the skills: https://roadmap.sh/python

Also as a note, in terms of career, if you are in HS or college age, then a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[summer roost]

the best way to negotiate is to have another offer. Beyond that, with 0 YOE and no competing offer, you don't really have any leverage other than a willingness to walk away.

[smoky quest]

We are relatively friendly.
However I do think we could do a better job of staying patient with kids who are completely brand new and clueless. Sometimes we tend to be a bit dismissive because to the more experienced folks, it sounds so trivial

[sleek egret]

hmm, ok. I'll try to remember that

[patent grove]

i should still try right?

[spark cobalt]

A lot of the clueless people end up just being here to argue rather than taking opinions from others, and then they as a whole end up getting a bad rap unfortunately.

[deft herald]

What area is this offer in?

[smoky quest]

That's the next steps. We won't know until we try to help first

[patent grove]

its in the san jose(bay area) area

[spark cobalt]

Yep

[summer roost]

I'm not sure that there's much point negotiating if you don't have any leverage. If you think the offer is too low, you can tell them that you're not willing to accept it at that rate. You shouldn't be surprised if they don't raise the offer, though.

[smoky quest]

not getting any equity in the bay area is practically unheard of. So that's a red flag to me. It signals a problem on either end or a different culture from a company outside of tech.

[deft herald]

I see. 107k seems pretty good for entry level but for bay area it may not be

[deft herald]

But then there's this

[patent grove]

they also only gave me 1 day to accept the offer but i told them i need more days obviously. it is a huge red flag. they didnt even give me job responsibilities yet

[spark cobalt]

Fairly confident levels.fyi is heavily skewed towards big tech.

[deft herald]

yeah that seems pretty high

[patent grove]

this is a data engineering position, sorry forgot to say that. probably the most important info xD

[deft herald]

what company if you don't mind the ask

[spark cobalt]

I heard DE gets paid less than SWEs in general. But I don't have too much knowledge on them.

[patent grove]

its for D.R Horton @deft herald

largest construction company atm but its nontech, they have this tech subdivision

[spark cobalt]

Have you looked at Glassdoor to see how others are paid in similar positions?

[patent grove]

so i do understand that i dont deserve 150k+ but do i deserve atleast 120? my team is small, i know more languages than them, my review was good, built good connections, etc

not to shit on my team or all but im walking seniors through code lol

majority of them dont know python and nodejs even

[deft herald]

Mmhmm. Unfortunately technical expertise doesn't determine how much you get paid

[patent grove]

but does that mean they dont see my valuation on the team?

[spark cobalt]

Being a senior isn't about who can collect the most Pokemon...

[patent grove]

could i also bring up the fact that i took a lowball internship offer and part time offer? he said part time range was 70-80k, i took 70k and $16 for internship

[spark cobalt]

Completing the Pokedex doesn't mean shit if all your Pokemon are level 2.

[deft herald]

Yes. If all you have is a year of internship, that's not much to go off of

[patent grove]

i have 3 months for the internship, 8 months as part time.i graduate next month

[deft herald]

There will be a hard range of salary for entry level and there's not a lot you can do about it

[patent grove]

okay this might be unethical but i dont think these larger companies are being very ethical either...but can i lie about a competing offer?

[spark cobalt]

I think this is potentially just tech vs non-tech company discrepancy.

[deft herald]

You can...until they ask for verification

[spark cobalt]

Yeah sure, but if they drop you then you have no actual offer.

[patent grove]

also what types of questions should i ask during negotation? something along the lines of these: how did you come with base pay, what are the total benefits i will be recieving, whats the range of a position like this, etc..?

[deft herald]

Yeah. Ask about "total compensation" and what all goes into it

[summer roost]

ultimately, the reason they pay you more will be that they value the extra money you're asking for less than they value the amount they could save by keeping the position open and searching for someone else to fill it.

[deft herald]

401k match, health care plans, stock grants or ESPP, etc

[patent grove]

can someone list what types of things i should ask for when i ask about TC? So far I only know about RSU's and sign on bonuses

[deft herald]

This info is usually publically available now that i think about it

[spark cobalt]

Yeah would not be surprising if you're in the upper end of salaries considering your long history with them.

[patent grove]

im thinking about asking questions about the offer first and then asking for a little bit more pay to meet the average median TC. is this a fair plan?

and obviously before i ask for more pay im going to start off with i really love the company, i want to make this work, i built good relationships, etc. my end of year review was good, i think everyone liked my work considering i got no negative feedback, and i can do alot more now that im full time

[smoky quest]

Actually that's the low range, for someone in the bay area

[deft herald]

entry level even? non-tech company?

[patent grove]

i agree with this. i have a lot of friends in tech and theyre saying the same thing. thats why im pushing it really hard atm and kind of upset tbh

[smoky quest]

It's a market with supply and demand.
They can try to supply that offer, but for someone in the bay, there are way too many better options 😉

[patent grove]

the 1 day sign was just a shot in the back for me and made me upset lol

[deft herald]

1 day? oof

[spark cobalt]

I wouldn't be surprised if many companies are using the current state of the economy to their advantage though. Junior market is tough, exploitation is easier now than before for juniors.

[patent grove]

i agreee with you @smoky quest. that is why i am also going to say that it'll benefit us both in the long run because i dont want to waste both of our times. the economy is not going to stop picking up, rent is going to rise, inflation is ATH

[spark cobalt]

Many people are willing to take any software job at all than being unemployed.

Especially now where junior candidates are more desperate...

Also just adding on that it's a non-tech company. The company probably wouldn't push as many tokens for software engineers at the same rate a tech company would. That ends up being shown in lack of investment for software engineer's tooling, resources, etc., lower pay, and whatnot.

@patent grove Have you been applying to other roles at least? How has those turned up?

[smoky quest]

Overall, assuming you are ready to walk away, I would:

• Go back to the 50 previous conversations where folks told you the expected salary for someone in the bay
• Go ask your friends for their rough comp.

Then take an average as it's what you would expect at any other job in the bay and use that as your goal.
You can then go talk to them and explain that you wish they could meet you at these numbers, considering this is the current market in the bay and that you already have an established relationship with them and have done some good work.
But you have to be ready for them to refuse on the grounds of:

• They would rather hire someone from a cheaper COL
• They don't want to
• They don't see that much value in you

Given they don't even give equity in the offer, I get a sense that's just not in their culture.

From there, either someone agree or there is a walk off.
But given the amount of thoughts you have been giving to it, you could also look for another company.

And note also Godlygeek's advice. Nothing beats another offer in a negotiation

[patent grove]

not really even getting interviews in this market haha, and i know its super hard to get an offer rn. but i really want to get better at negotiating from the jump

[delicate bane]

say it louder for those in the back

📢

[spark cobalt]

Pokemon game is over when Elite 4 is beaten , Professor Oak can do a better job in his next life

[spark cobalt]

At least in my opinion, if you're getting huge growth opportunities within this company (meaning more opportunities for doing more mid-level/senior work, etc., which it sounds like you do) that can be a huge leverage when you jump boats to a company that pays at the "Bay Area rate" if you are unable to get other offers.

[delicate bane]

you need to complete the analogy to relate to tech

[patent grove]

should i ask for a higher position title u think? since i am doing what these mid level and seniors cant do?

[delicate bane]

if its a non-tech company, they will most likely value domain knowledge in that specific industry more than technical skills

which they will use YoE in that industry as a heuristic

[spark cobalt]

That might be even riskier than asking for higher compensation.

Also, just because your seniors can't do Python, doesn't mean you can suddenly do everything they're capable of doing. They are a senior for a reason.

[patent grove]

have u guys personally done negotiations and increased ur salary before btw?

[spark cobalt]

I was given a super lowball offer from a really small company in North Dakota at 40k. I rose it to 55k but the company was just a shitty opportunity for me in general so declined.

[deft herald]

My current position i didn't really (need to) negotiate, but i did walk away from an offer before that

[spark cobalt]

I did an absolutely outstanding take home project for their second round interview that I knew gave me a shit ton of leverage. But ultimately moving to North Dakota sounds like ass, ain't going to live in the middle of nowhere.

[patent grove]

what exactly did u say to get that much % of an increase?

[spark cobalt]

I think if you can assess what value you were able to provide to your development team and the company as a whole (not numbers, but like lists of things you've done) that could help your negotiations.

[spark cobalt]

4 line email:

Hey,

I am not going below 65k.

Best,
my name

They know they're lowballing, I know they're lowballing, entirety of America knows they're lowballing. Nothing more needs to be said.

[chrome summit]

TC is generally not negotiable. Only base pay, sigh on bonus, and first year bonus. The other benefits are normally pretty standard. Glass door will tell you a lot.

NYC has salaries posted if you want nyc examples.

[patent grove]

i think my TC is legit only my base salary lol

[spark cobalt]

For the take home project, I built out an entire feature set they were planning to build in the future from absolutely knowing nothing about the stack they used. I proved my worth, wasn't going to take bullshit from them.

[chrome summit]

That would mean no benefits? That doesn’t sound right.

[sharp hound]

ive been self teaching myself python using a 12 hour youtube video i found but im feeling down since i was told by a friend math knowledge is needed for game dev (thats what i wanna aim for) and im pretty much terrible on math. i never studied coding but i rly wanna get into it and make it my career. is it true ?

[spark cobalt]

Yes, very true.

[patent grove]

yup it says only welfare and health benefits + normal sick/vacation/etc days

[deft herald]

well sounds like you need to get this info before making a decision

did you ask about bonuses?

[patent grove]

yup exactly, he just presented it to my email we havent even had a 1on1 call yet to discuss the offer. so i told my manager to get on a call next week

[chrome summit]

Healthcare would be part of TC. I’m assuming they have 401K matching too.

[patent grove]

dude it was so bad that they didnt even give me the job description. it literally says "job description is tied with the document" but it isnt lmfao. then on top of that they only gave me 1 day to sign

[spark cobalt]

TC should be included in the offer letter.

[chrome summit]

Normally it’s in the formal offer letter

They would also send the benefit guide with it. They normally send a verbal offer first then follow up with formal.

[sharp hound]

Do you mind if i ask what your opinion would be as of where i can start ? I really wanna code but knowing my lack of advanced math knowledge will mess me up sooner or later i'd like to know what is the best route before i waste time. Any other way to enjoy this career and not need math as whole if that even is a thing

[chrome summit]

Normally you would only deal with HR on these matters. It’s rare the hiring manager would be involved.

[patent grove]

it just tells me base salary and they listed it as a "promotion letter" since i already work in the company

[chrome summit]

Promotions are less formal. You should already have access to the company’s benefits.

[smoky quest]

It depends on where you are starting from.
If you are in HS or college, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and best opportunities and compensation.

In terms of math/skills, keep in mind that the lower the requirements, the bigger the applicant pool and thus the lower the compensation

[chrome summit]

You didn’t apply for the role? It would have job description there.

[spark cobalt]

Probably learn math. Game engines (visualization of such) are pretty much handled all by linear algebra (how do you render a 3D environment to a 2D screen?). Physics engines deal with a lot of calculus. Definitely a bit of mechanics, geometry, standard algebra involved as well. There's a fuckton of networking involved in games now as well.

[sharp hound]

I've finished school already, around 2 years ago. I chose a completly different path that i now regret and where i live i have no coding opportunities so i went and tried the self thought coding. There was a 4 month free javascript coding but due to family problems i wasnt able to hop in and now it doesnt happen anymore

[sharp hound]

I guess im doomed, regret ignoring math while i was on school

[chrome summit]

HS or college? What degree if college?

[smoky quest]

That's not too late to go back to college. I have friends who went back at 26 and are doing great now.

That said, if you are willing to trade opportunities and compensation and to work/fight harder, then self-taught/bootcamp is the other way. In that case, aim for frontend dev as it's the easiest point of entry. It will still take months to get in a good shape though.
You will also need to make some interesting projects to make up for the lack of education

[spark cobalt]

Well, have you at least looked into job descriptions of game developer roles to look at: a.) what kind of programming languages/software they use? b.) what kind of overall knowledge you should know? etc.

I don't know how realistic being a game dev with Python is ngl.

[sharp hound]

Im self aware python for game dev isnt really realistic, i just wanted to start with python since its pretty begginer friendly and so i could start somewhere.

my best friend is on an actual collage and he is studying java not sure if he is learning c++ too

[viscid marten]

Usually your first language is hard, 2nd is harder then it starts getting super easy.

[river flare]

what do you think about PCEP – Certified Entry-Level Python Programmer certification.?

[smoky quest]

In terms of?

[river flare]

is it worth it?

Will it be useful in the recruitment process?

[smoky quest]

It depends for what.
In terms of career, it has as much value as a certificate delivered by me

[river flare]

is it better to build a portfolio then?

[smoky quest]

It's better to get a CS degree like a BSc or a masters

[spark cobalt]

The PCEP and PCAP are super basic and generally most employers won't care about certificates as there's a long list of things that are more representative of a person's capabilities than certificates: a degree, a portfolio, prior experience/internships, open source contributions, various achievements (Putnam, Hackathons, other competitions), etc.

[lavish panther]

Hi! guys. I am looking for a marketer. If you need the marketing job, Plz DM me

[near ocean]

!rule ad

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[buoyant seal]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[lavish panther]

sorry

[delicate bane]

did someone say pin, maybe 📌

[summer roost]

sure, why not

[spark cobalt]

If only people read pins or searched for the question that's been asked 1000 times.

[brazen comet]

You know, there are times I am glad I joined this Discord, as back then scouring YouTube for help on these topics always pointed towards misleading advice, i.e. "Take these Google certificates - Get hired and make $100k without a degree!"

[spark cobalt]

Everyone selling something lol

[delicate bane]

its a type of bias. the people that read pins dont ask questions. so theres that

also thanks godly.

[vapid jay]

YT algo naturally leads to bad advice because it prioritizes engagement

That's why a lot of these top tech channels are controversy farmers ran by angry people who left dev after 1-2 years

the best channels I've seen ran by actual ex faang staff and principal engineers get less views than those people

On the other hand reddit as a platform is going to prioritize things people agree with

Which might just be CS majors without a job or other juniors agreeing with it

[true harness]

the employed people probably aren't spending that much time on reddit to begin with

[spark cobalt]

trutru

[summer roost]

Survivorship bias, in particular

We only see the duplicate questions from the people who didn't read the pins, and we never see questions from people who read the pins and decided not to ask the questions

[delicate bane]

[smoky quest]

We need to A/B test our pinned messages 🙂

[delicate bane]

someone could do an analysis of # of questions asked related to pin topics before and after the date they were pinned.

there are a number of problems with that type of analysis but its whatevs lol

[smoky quest]

if only there was someone familiar with DS around 🤔

[delicate bane]

if only

i tag stelercus

[spark cobalt]

[fossil thunder]

That's wild, bro.

[unborn cave]

Why make 100k painstakingly 100hrs a week!? When you can just buy my book so I can make 100k easy. # CodeGuru

Brought to you by sarcasm

[near ocean]

100hr weeks? Are people working 2 full time jobs again

[west badger]

Quick question : What does it matter most there to apply in universities ? The grade or the percentage?
For example:Person 1 got 97 percent and Person 2 got 92 percent but still both of them got grade A
so will it matter?

[near ocean]

Are you planning on getting a 92%?

[west badger]

no i got it that is why

i am askin @near ocean

[near ocean]

If you already got your grade theres no point worryin about it, what can you do, retake the exam?
Just apply and see

[west badger]

i am just asking

[near ocean]

Theres no way for us to guess what each uni admissions person would do

[west badger]

like what does most uni does?

[near ocean]

Look at other things as well besides grades

Your best bet is to contact and find out
I dont think unis are that cutthroat about individual grades

[spark cobalt]

Your transcript (at least in America) only shows your letter grade. So the only discrepancy with 92 and 97 is some teachers may consider a 92 to be an A- and 97 to be an A+/A, and then that would be assessed.

[west badger]

so if we both got A grade it wont matter ?

[spark cobalt]

So if both are considered an A, at least in America there wouldn't be a difference in eyes of an admission officer, because they're not told the percentage afaik.

[west badger]

i see

I want to prepare for SAT , ACT and TOEFL(I dont think I have to give any other exams as an international student) . Any recommendation where should i prepare for that . I can even spend money if I have to buy a book

[white relic]

I don't know what its like for international students, but at least in the US students rarely take both SAT and ACT. When I was in school most people I knew took the SAT only. A few took only the ACT. I don't know if I know anyone who took both while in high school. Colleges accept either.

[spark cobalt]

Especially now where there's significantly less emphasis on either of the tests in college admissions.

[white relic]

It's become trendy for colleges to claim they don't care as much about test scores, yeah.
I'm a little skeptical about that because given how most admissions decisions are totally opaque to begin with, it's not really actionable information

Highly selective colleges may get many more good applicants than they can reasonably accept. They have to filter them somehow and placing less emphasis on SAT score doesn't mean it's not a factor.

Kinda wonder if some schools literally just stack rank applications by weighted average SAT score+GPA and accept the top N

I'm sure most admissions decisions are more nuanced than that. But unless the school is unusually transparent, you'd never know.

[chrome summit]

Both are generally recommended actually. My school suggested both.

University will accept the higher of the two

[white relic]

That wasn't the case when I was in school. 🤷‍♂️

[white relic]

the scores aren't directly comparable

[chrome summit]

Percentiles are very comparable

[white relic]

sure

that doesn't really suggest you should take both though

[chrome summit]

I won’t really go back and forth on it but taking both does not hurt. I’ve worked for a university before.

[white relic]

If anything, it would imply that you should take the same one multiple times to improve your score

Anyway, I'm sure it doesn't hurt. But I just don't know anyone who took both. Seems like it probably doesn't make a big difference.

[chrome summit]

Now you know someone lol

[white relic]

Then again, maybe things have changed a lot since the 2000s

[chrome summit]

Me too

I’m referring to early 2000s although I worked in academia way after

Although with Covid 19, a lot of universities were tweaking their requirements. SAT/ACT became a lot less important. Some did not even require it. I’m not sure if they reverted back since then.

[sleek egret]

IIRC, most of the universities that dropped the SAT have added it back

[leaden thicket]

How much help are cloud certs for junior roles?

[sleek egret]

not much help

[frosty cove]

Entirely depends on the company, size, etc.

[sleek egret]

how intense are jobs?

[vapid jay]

@vapid jay how is TetzCo Inc

[near ocean]

Not all jobs are made the same
Some are hard and others could be automated away with a bit of coding

[sleek egret]

but if you automate away the job then you have no job. thus it's not a job that is not the made the same. thus it doesn't count!

[near ocean]

Of course it counts, i cant imagine someone writing articles to be on the same level as any other job in terms of intensity

[true harness]

the actual concrete number of your gpa matters less than your relative performance compared to your classmates. same with other standardized tests like SAT and ACT.

also I've never heard it be recommended to take both ACT and SAT. it'd be much more useful to take one multiple times to get a better score

the issue with this is that it is biased against people that can't necessarily afford the time to study and take standardized tests multiple times, or other factors

[true harness]

oops that last one was meant to reply to

[pine sleet]

sat prep can also cost either a lot of time, a lot of money, or both
I have friends who weren't able to pay for prep courses and scored a fair bit worse than me
Don't really know if they're related but, observation

sometimes people also focus way too much on one thing (guilty as charged) so it's important to take a holistic view

[true harness]

yeah I spent a total of 0 dollars on prep, but definitely multiple hours over a month

[white relic]

I took the sat twice

[chrome summit]

I didn’t prep for either. My SAT score was avg but my ACT score was 78th percentile.

[pine sleet]

all in all I've my dad spent over $1000+ on it, and tbh it seems like colleges are not starting to look at SAT as definitive as they used to
Pretty much wasted money 🙁

[chrome summit]

I went to a private school. In lieu of standardized state exams, they forced us to do practice SATs though.

[true harness]

one thing I'm annoyed at is SAT subject tests. they literally just don't look at them anymore 😔

[chrome summit]

I did dual enrollment in high school. I ended up with 36 college credits that way.

[pine sleet]

Sheesh, 36? I'm dual enrolled rn and I only get 6

[chrome summit]

My high school allowed you to be part time in school so I went to college full time.

[pine sleet]

Ah, that makes sense. We're only allowed to take a few dual enrollment classes so most kids don't take it at all and the few that do end up getting 6-12 credit hours

Better than nothing, it's much cheaper here at the local community college

[chrome summit]

The classes were also free that way. Paid for by the state. (FL)

[pine sleet]

Ooh, though it's only $180/semester here so it may as well be free lol