career-advice

[vapid jay]

Sorry , what’s the name of the programmers carrer, software engineer right?

[true harness]

not really. a degree shows you have at least the core required classes. it doesn't say anything about if you know, say, angular, or something

[true harness]

either software engineer or developer. there's also devops, MLE

[acoustic wolf]

Yeah that's what I figured. I used to work in labs and am actually lead author of a paper, but i feel like HR just rejects me because "no degree"

[spark cobalt]

Welcome to self taught world

Where there's thousands upon thousands of new grads that did everything you did but more that are searching in the job market 🙂 and have internships lol

[near ocean]

How are you lead author without a degree? How did you find a lab job in the first place without academic qualifications

[true harness]

i mean unless you're an undergrad, that seems a little strange

[smoky quest]

Papers are also not worth a degree. Anyone can write one.
The difficult part is to get the citations and impact

[acoustic wolf]

I volunteered at a college lab and it spiraled into me writing a pipeline to do some DNA analysis, then that was used by some archaeologists and they offered me authorship, so I took it lol

I feel like I'm qualified for an entry level developer position. Frankly the fetishization of degrees is weird

I was able to get work at other labs basically by telling that story

[spark cobalt]

It's not a fetishization. This is competition with other people in the job market searching for jobs and nearly all of them have a degree.

[zealous path]

Depends on what the paper was about and how much programming you did.
Just cause I got an Olympic gold in swimming doesn’t mean I’m qualified to be a surgeon

[coral hound]

You can say the same about doing a degree to be fair

[zealous path]

Oh absolutely

[acoustic wolf]

No I'd argue it definitely is. Just look at what was written above. "How are you lead author without a degree? How did you work at labs?" Like it's amazing that someone can be educated without going to college. Society is sick basically lol

[smoky quest]

it's correlation vs causation.
Correlation is strong though

[spark cobalt]

Again, this is just a competition thing. Employers have no clue what the paper is, what kind of work you did in the lab, etc. You still are a huge risk ball of unknown to an employer. And well, in the current market where there's outstanding college grads at every corner looking to be hired, you might not be a risk worth taking, as it's really just an unnessecary risk.

Some education are worth more than others simply because they hold a huge history of consistency and predictability (and credibility). A hiring manager knows what to expect from a CS graduate but not necessarily from a self taught person.

In an era when most certificates can be cheated, your portfolio can be copied from somewhere else, etc. there are less and less things that employers can truly rely on. A degree just happens to be the sole reliable thing when someone has little to no experience. There's no fetishization, it's just is what it is.

Other countries may have less barriers but that's simply because there's less competition to fill these tech roles. US happens to offer lucrative careers in CS and the demands from employers being higher than other countries is a reflection of that.

[acoustic wolf]

Nah it's a definite fetishization, and it goes beyond computer science. A lot of people need bachelor's degrees just to be a lab monkey moving liquids around in a beaker. It's absurd

[spark cobalt]

Maybe in other sectors sure idrk too much there. But in CS it's far from a fetishization.

Why get someone without a degree when you can get someone that can, easily?

[acoustic wolf]

Exactly, fetishization

[spark cobalt]

Why get someone without a portfolio when you can get someone that can, easily?

[gritty rivet]

Try sorting through a pile of 500 resumes some time and let me know what filter you find superior 😉

[spark cobalt]

Suddenly everything is a fetish lol.

[zealous path]

I think you’re just throwing that word around. “Insistence” would be a more accurate word

[spark cobalt]

Not even. By literal common sense someone that spent 4 years in higher education and someone that didn't with everything else the same, the college grad will generally do better.

[acoustic wolf]

Exactly, it's okay to hate HR

[spark cobalt]

Keep hating. Doesn't change the underlying realities of our market.

[acoustic wolf]

Again, I disagree. "Obsession" might fit better

[acoustic wolf]

Yes, we live in a profoundly diseased system

[near ocean]

Its easy to say something's broken, do you have a solution?

[spark cobalt]

Under your logic, employers fetishize portfolios, intern/prior work experience, degrees, location, H1B status, literally anything that can improve your odds over another candidate.

[smoky quest]

how so?
Not sure what's so bad with having some education

[zealous path]

@acoustic wolf you obsess too much about others having degrees and should focus more on making your paper be the limelight. Is it the crowning achievement on your CV or just a side note?
@near ocean please don’t make comments about “how could you do X without a degree?” Tyler managed to get that lab position and we shouldn’t look down on them just cause they don’t have a degree

[acoustic wolf]

I'm saying if you pass up somebody with actual work experience relevant to the job for someone just out of college that's ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with an education, the obsession that someone be "educated" regardless of whether they know what they are doing or not, is what's obscene

[spark cobalt]

It would be profoundly diseased if you're unable to do this path to get a job, but you are able to.

[smoky quest]

isn't it a constructed scenario? Sometimes it may happen for good reasons and sometimes for bad reasons

[near ocean]

Its a perfectly valid question lol
You dont just get to walk into a lab job with no qualifications and then also get offered authorship
I know people with multiple degrees working in labs that dont even get mentioned on the research they help with

[zealous path]

Current industry would point that companies are not recruiting people based on degrees but actually based on experience.
Myself and others had graduate positions taken by those with 3-5 years of work experience.

[smoky quest]

From what I see on the software side, the people with 3-5 years of work experience that do get hired also have degrees.

[zealous path]

Yes but you could’ve phrased it differently.

[spark cobalt]

UK is different from the US.

[zealous path]

Well yeah, my point was that graduate (i.e. graduates) jobs are being taken by people who probably qualify for junior positions

[acoustic wolf]

again, having "multiple degrees" doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're doing

[zealous path]

Good point

[spark cobalt]

Sure. But an employer can at least ensure you know x y and z thing. Who knows if you copied your entire portfolio from GitHub or a YouTube video and have no clue what you're doing

[near ocean]

Its a good indicator that they do, as opposed to someone without

[acoustic wolf]

you can literally do that in college, lmao

[spark cobalt]

From anecdotes I've heard, absolutely not lol.

[near ocean]

Is there a reason you didnt go to uni?

[acoustic wolf]

entire family died

[smoky quest]

not really given there are exams and projects and a few other things

[zealous path]

@acoustic wolf @near ocean @spark cobalt
Simple solution recruiters have created= Technical interviews

[spark cobalt]

Ok meeting bye.

[near ocean]

Employers have such a hard on for degrees that they put candidates through multiple multi-hour interviews even after they check the degree box, sure makes sense

[acoustic wolf]

yeah, exactly

[smoky quest]

Studying full time for 3-5 years CS does give an advantage

[zealous path]

@acoustic wolf you could prove me wrong with your CV but I have an inkling that you do not show how good your lab position is to a potential employer.
Just writing “I was in a lab, I wrote a paper” doesn’t do much.
Same way I couldn’t just write “I got a 2:1 Bsc in Applied Physics”.
You have the elaborate and explain WHAT you did, why it’s so important, who it affected…

[acoustic wolf]

I haven't even suggested what I've written on my resume in anyway. It really feels like you're trying to convince yourself of the value of a degree rather than me.

[true harness]

no, not really. sure you can copy homework, psets, but most of the time these are only a tiny fraction of a grade. protections against cheating in exams are much more stringent

[zealous path]

I have no idea what you’ve written but you haven’t stated at all what your attempts have been like.
It’s just “grrrr, people with degrees get hired. I worked at a lab, why don’t I get hired”
We know your sentiment but all this talk is just theoreticals until we get specifics

[near ocean]

Maybe we should go back to the beginning
Are you getting calls to interviews?

If not, maybe you should show your cv, there might be something off with it

[true harness]

technically, they only asked if it was possible, not that they were trying

[near ocean]

They said something about HR rejecting them

[acoustic wolf]

This is correct. Then I mentioned the obsession with degrees, which is true

[acoustic wolf]

I said sometimes I feel like HR just sees "no degree" and moves along. Earlier I mentioned that I'm only sort of looking for a job and not actually trying too hard

Then everyone else seemed to jump in to tell me, very defensively, how important their degrees are

[dreamy shadow]

They absolutely throw out resumes that don't meet their minimum. I doubt anyone will debate with you on this.

[near ocean]

They are, but that's another topic

[acoustic wolf]

No, not always, and that was literally the topic lmao

[near ocean]

I mean you're literally finding out how important they are

[acoustic wolf]

As a perverse requirement, not necessarily as a measure of skill

[near ocean]

Having a job isn't a measure of skill either
The degree is there to minimise the risk of hiring someone completely incapable

[acoustic wolf]

Being able to do something is in fact a better measure of skill than having a paper that says probably

[spark cobalt]

then that was used by some archaeologists and they offered me authorship, so I took it lol

This doesn't seem like it's any better than a degree.

[near ocean]

The paper certifies that youre able to do things set out by accreditation institutes, you dont get a degree by just paying tuition lol

[acoustic wolf]

back from the HR meeting?

[spark cobalt]

Are you sure you don't have a fetishization for what you have 🙂

[acoustic wolf]

What you wrote doesn't even make sense

Anyways I'm going to go, you people are weird

[spark cobalt]

Cya. Gl.

[dreamy shadow]

For majority of places, however, there are Diploma mills

[zealous path]

GL HF

[true harness]

those are not accredited

[true harness]

that is generally true. however it is far more likely that someone with a degree will in fact know what they're doing compared to someone without a degree

[delicate bane]

yeah wilder had to send out like multiple of thousands of apps. right wild?

[spark cobalt]

Yep.

[dreamy shadow]

There exists accredited ones that have easier bar of entry (in terms of ) with lower standards.

[near ocean]

Lower standards is still better than no standards at all

[spark cobalt]

There's lots of diploma fraud in 3rd world countries apparently, but I'm not too educated about them. Tanuki was educating me about them

[dreamy shadow]

And/or there are 'party schools' which some employers don't take seriously. I ran into one in AZ when looking at one of the masters programs they offered.

[dreamy shadow]

lmao, I can feel my resume thrown out too when I apply to "masters preferred" DS positions.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah degree "forgery"

[delicate bane]

dude i bet 9 times out of 10 it happens for DS roles even though exp >>> grad degree imo

at least for companies that arent doing active R&D

[dreamy shadow]

At this point it's just a waiting game for me. Have to hit that magical YoE minimum they keep looking for.

[delicate bane]

which are many companies

[near ocean]

If you wanna see some real degree fetishization you should try to apply to jobs in the UK where some companies wont look at you if youre not from one of top X unis

[true harness]

sure, but they at least meet the minimum level required by accreditation

[delicate bane]

someone said there were magical thresholds like 3, 5, 7, 10 or something but idk if the pandemic has changed this or not

[spark cobalt]

I hear year 3-4 is the magical number, where job hunting becomes significantly easier.

[dreamy shadow]

Not sure about 3, but 5 for sure.

[delicate bane]

heck i think even some places are desperate enough even if you have 1 YoE

[true harness]

i wouldn't be too optimistic about n levels. you need at least n + 1

[zealous path]

Don’t get me started on those
only Russell group unis
Go F yourself you 3rd rate company

[dreamy shadow]

~~I'm at 3 ~~

[spark cobalt]

Ok definitely 4 then

[near ocean]

laughs in Hunter Bond ads

[delicate bane]

bruh. is this finance? jk. unless?

[spark cobalt]

Meeting is just docker automation scripts kinda boring :c

[near ocean]

Mostly, some other general software jobs as well

[dreamy shadow]

Actually, I've seen some US companies pull that bs too. X top companies + require X GPA.

[zealous path]

Ad:
Senior Data Engineer
45 hour week
Competitive salary of £21,000/3years
Only Russel Group universities
Has to have a 1:1 Masters with a PHD

[spark cobalt]

[dreamy shadow]

Can you get a PhD without a masters?

[zealous path]

I heard it’s possible but rare

[true harness]

it's common in physics

[dreamy shadow]

My understanding was if you didn't finish the PhD, you could always bail mid way with a Masters.

[near ocean]

Theres accelerated programs you go into with BScs and come out with PhDs

[dreamy shadow]

Sounds like purely academia

[potent stratus]

I'm confused why it would be Masters with a PhD and not just a PhD requirement then? is there a UK thing I'm missing?

[zealous path]

I think just général expected progression
3yr Bsc - 1yr Msc - Xyr PhD
Or
4yr Msc- Xyr PhD

[delicate bane]

hmm hmm just learned from a podcast that a solutions architect role (at least at aws) is more like a sales engineer where you are paired with a sales person and work with customers

usually providing technical guidance

[delicate bane]

in some places. some places wont let you do a masters midway so you def should double check the program beforehand.

[dawn leaf]

If you pass your comprehensive exam you can leave with a masters. This is generally true in american unis

[potent stratus]

when I was job searching last this is how someone (who is not at all with aws) described being an SA to me as well, so I don't think it's aws specific - though different places may have different pay structures around how much you help sales / if you get some commission or if it's entirely salary

[smoky quest]

• Years of education are still worth more than years of experience. That is reflected in the compensation for instance
• There is also a pigeon holing effect. Someone who lacks the education will have more difficulty doing lateral moves comparing to someone with a better education. So while experience will matter more than the degree after a few years, that will also have an effect on the distance between the past and future experience

[coral hound]

Wat

Like in sysadmin to devops track education rly not been a factor

I did Physics at a Russell group uni but tbh I may as well have not even put it on my CV, never even been mentioned in an interview

[smoky quest]

tbh, not many companies will see a difference between the two

[coral hound]

Not anymore I guess, when I started my career though there was a clear diff

[smoky quest]

there was a mass rebranding of many sysadmin which has diluted the impact. Furthermore, if we want to be pedantic, devops is a culture, not a role

It's not much different from the QA who rebranded as QE or all the big data hype

[coral hound]

Sure, you see a lot of roles now instead named platform engineer etc, I would say anyone that claims it's a simple rebrand though is either disingenuous or wilfully ignoring how salaries for the role have massively departed from previous levels

10 years ago you'd expect a syadmin to earn less than a software engineer typically, the opposite is true now since ops as code

[smoky quest]

it's still true today as it was 10 years ago 😉

the devops/sre engineers who are catching up are the ones who were successful at integrating the software engineering aspects

[coral hound]

Not in the UK market at least, platform/cloud engineer roles pay a premium here

[smoky quest]

I don't have the same numbers, but hey, good for you!
It's nice to be valued

[coral hound]

39k vs 45k mean according to payscale.com

But I do find that former software engs that come to the dark side tend to be the best sres

[near ocean]

What does it mean to be a platform/cloud dev, are they not software devs?

[smoky quest]

• There has been a trend in leveraging software practices to scale and do more with less
• They are less connected to the $$$
• New titles -> you have more hype -> more compensation

[delicate bane]

right. def affects compensation for sure.

[smoky quest]

That's why there was all the hype to rename sysadmin and create devops and sre titles. Or QA/QE, or the rush for big data

[near ocean]

Whats the E in QE

[delicate bane]

ah yes theres also the whole platform vs. product engineer. basically devs having to do even more lol

[smoky quest]

Engineering

[near ocean]

That sounds dumb lol is it all just hyping up for no reason?

[delicate bane]

i have a meme somewhere. gimme a sec

[coral hound]

I don't feel like a software eng because I don't feel like I create software, but I guess you could argue my software is pipelines and code to provision and configure infrastructure

[smoky quest]

I hate how "platform" is being dual used. It used to mean the actual platform like registration, notification, etc. Nowadays, it's being overtaken by what used to be sre/devops

[near ocean]

My company recently created a "platform" team, no idea what they do besides the fact they use python

[smoky quest]

well, it could be either 😉

[delicate bane]

its def an overloaded term.

[dreamy shadow]

Me on DS/Analytics: Product and Platform? Same difference.

🚪

[delicate bane]

until you get to a place that has to actually create an "MLOps Platform" aka a place for Data Scientists to deploy, monitor, etc. their models

[smoky quest]

that's the team that does nothing, right?
I never saw these teams working

[delicate bane]

honestly yeah

[coral hound]

If you don't notice your platform team it prolly means they're doing their jobs well

[delicate bane]

my friend is an SWE on one of those teams, specifically the monitoring team. and half the battle is trying to get the non-technical DS to actually use the platform

[dreamy shadow]

A non technical DS is just an business analyst.

[delicate bane]

you know whats funny? its basically the underwriters you work with since hes also at an insurance place

i think a big issue is maybe platforms need to meet their users where they are? idk

[smoky quest]

they need to provide value

[delicate bane]

but this has also resulted in deployment of jupyter notebooks which is basically an anti-pattern at this point. dont @ me stel.

[delicate bane]

the platform, you mean? i think so too

[near ocean]

I was contacted about a job that was entirely working on their jupyter notebook product thing

[dreamy shadow]

That's like using R but worse.

[near ocean]

Sounds entirely insane tbh, the job description was 100% about jupyter notebooks, helping with a test framework for it and deployment

[smoky quest]

if their users don't see the value and have to be forced, that does imply they aren't building the right thing or focusing on the right problems

[delicate bane]

like, platform engineers should also collect "business requirements" too right? to draw the right boundaries

even though their users would be other dev teams (product engineers) in this case

its tough bc you dont want to be seen as a cost center but you are one layer removed from the value chain

[smoky quest]

getting in the way of your users is not gonna help with being seen as a cost center

[delicate bane]

right

i was trying to get a platform team to meet with one of the product teams to get them to adopt the ML API we were working on together but they were almost allergic to the idea.

they had more of a mindset of "if you build it, they will come".
me:

[smoky quest]

that only works in the movies. Not doing it like that is the whole point of the current practices and methodology to build startups

[coral hound]

That is a bit nuts imo

My job title is platform engineer but I'm embedded within a product team and my primary function is to gather their requirements and support their requirements

When there's time outside of that it's patching, updating, re architecting where possible to reduce costs and improve resilience etc

[near ocean]

What does day to day look like, what kind of tickets do you handle?

[coral hound]

Infrastructure as code is a big part, provisioning cloud infra whilst ensuring it's all networked sensibly and uses least privelege principles etc

Writing pipelines to automate deployments of software, to automate configurations, that sort of thing

[near ocean]

How is this different to what a devops eng would do for work?
At my company theres two separate teams for devops and platform which i could help, how would they be different? Or is it entirely company dependent

[coral hound]

And of course making sure everything is monitored and has useful alarms in place

[coral hound]

You'll find a ton of different phrases for different roles to be honest, my role has a ton of crossover with roles I have seen advertised as cloud architects, cloud engineers, devops engineer, platform engineer, site reliability engineer, automation engineer...sometimes roles even called 'tech lead' roles are essentially the principle devops eng

There's forsure some understandable confusion regarding the nomenclature across the whole tech space

[coral hound]

Depending on the size, funding, scale etc of the estate you may find companies hiring teams tp specialise extra, IE IaC/config management being looked after by one team and another team fully focused on administrating k8s clusters or writing CI/CD pipelines

[delicate bane]

i think being embedded goes a long way. i find that outside of a team unit, its hard to get anyone to do anything. at least for our company.

[smoky quest]

It's a well known problem when designing teams. You want to connect them to their outcome and empower them with sufficient autonomy

Slicing the teams in different ways lead to different trade offs

[delicate bane]

yeah...i think its hard for data teams since they are usually supporting cross functional areas. hmm maybe i should try being in a traditional software team for my next job. i do want to be building more things

[delicate bane]

a good one from kelsey hightower

hes also been on a number of podcasts. always sharing great stuff

[stable elbow]

ok so

at the final reference check before offer section for a data analyst role in a smol company where I would be the only analyst. Still incredibly terrified as I would essentially be performing the role of a data engineer, analyst, and project manager all in one.

[white relic]

First job? Second job?

[stable elbow]

first real job. not counting internships and work experience

first real job in analytics*

[white relic]

Sounds like it could be an opportunity to grow a lot.

[stable elbow]

most definitely, but the lack of mentorship or fellow analysts to go by is a bit scary.
I'll probably have to figure out how to set up a data warehouse, streamline a bunch of processes and automate a bunch of stuff

[dreamy shadow]

Probably overthinking it.

[stable elbow]

i mean my goal is to develop as best as I can, have that experience so I can leapfrog to better paid positions later

[delicate bane]

yeah def sounds good for growth if youre looking for that. just dont underestimate stakeholder management as a skill

would be tough though as long as you know

[coral quarry]

Guys so in the real world for cyber security, I assume that python might be a role in making/editing tools for cyber stuff. But like how exams in schools are based on memorization and written to be perfect without testing, can you actually test code in the real world or does it have to be perfect the first try?

Like let’s say I forgot some syntax or forgot a semicolon but I understand what the output should be. Will I get fired if that happens to me a lot? (I’m forgetful unless I do the same thing everyday)

[vapid jay]

Hi All, just wanted to pick your brains re: the job market atm. Are you guys more open contract/temp roles ( 3 - 12 months ) because perm roles are becoming more competitive and are few and far between nowadays?

[dreamy shadow]

Yes you can test your code. No it doesn't have to be perfect first try. There's also IDEs that help you avoid basic syntax errors.

[gilded yacht]

python programmer and java programmer which one is more needed or more popular in career market nowadays?

[white relic]

depends on location, and various other things. Searching for available openings in your area of interest would tell you more than we could.

[coral quarry]

I don’t think that I should group cyber security and software engineering jobs together as a bunch, but are these jobs like team based like if someone doesn’t know something, the other can help and vice versa or is it like independent of one another?

[white relic]

the term for jobs where you work totally independently and can't ask your coworkers for help is "bad jobs"

they exist, but it's a fact about your workplace and culture, not your functional role.

[dreamy shadow]

I assume they are still a student. Succeeding in college courses vs what my job actually was is vastly different.
Real world jobs are collaborative efforts.

[spark cobalt]

It's better than nothing, but a permanent role would be better.

[dreamy shadow]

I personally avoid contract work. Less benefits, and near the end you still have to worry about looking again.

[gilded yacht]

does it mean I will finally need to know both languages well in the end of the day, in order to get hand on more projects?

[delicate bane]

same as sky

[dreamy shadow]

Er, that was more meant towards Flamewalker's question.

Your thinking of it backwards. The language is just a tool, it depends fully on the task and what you want to do.

If you were a SWE, you might need to quickly pick up a new language. Which wouldn't be hard given that you have the fundamentals of CS down.

[gilded yacht]

Thank you for the explanation.
Indeed I was hesitating about which language to choose for a high volume data system. It requires throughput of several GBs per min/sec, constant information extraction and analyzing from the data. So am wondering if py or jave is more suitable…

[vapid jay]

Thanks for your inputs @spark cobalt , @dreamy shadow and @delicate bane . I think it can be good option for people who are looking for something more casual also the pay is usually better than that of a perm role

[spark cobalt]

I've seen the opposite for where I'm at tbh, but yeah.

[white relic]

this would require a lot more information to make an informed recommendation, and isn't topical to #career-advice

[dreamy shadow]

Contract tends to be worse although pay might seem better.
You can be missing on health plans that company help subsidize. 401k retirement plans that reduce your taxes. No severance, and contract workers are first to let go in bad markets.

[smoky quest]

If you feel you are getting a lot of competition, I would not necessarily look for lowering your standard. I would suggest to look at making yourself able to compete better 😉

[river coral]

Anyone here went from no coding background to self learning it and landing a full time job?

How disadvantaged am I without a CS degree?

I'm trying to figure out if I can self learn coding and land a full time job in a year or so.

[white relic]

very disadvantaged, and it's unlikely.
I'll let others answer the first question.

[smoky quest]

Some people do that, but not by choice.
But they are still very much disadvantaged comparing to those who do have a CS degree. The path and compensation are different

[robust island]

There's this success story on reddit fwiw https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/ctkypf/im_100_self_taught_landed_my_first_job_my/

[dreamy shadow]

Reddit loves those stories.

[peak halo]

if you're a young person without professional experience (and it might be that you aren't), you should really just do a CS degree.

[spark cobalt]

Yes. Overwhelmingly disadvantaged.

[gritty rivet]

Do you have a non-CS degree, or no degree at all? The difference can be pretty signficant

[vapid jay]

When someone says "CS" degree, it only means Computer Science right?

[robust island]

The fact that it got so much karma should hint at how unusual it is tho

[peak halo]

what else would it stand for? or are you asking if CS and SWE are interchangeable?

[zealous path]

Depends what type of full time job.
Self taught myself Python BUT I also did a STEM degree and I’m not a software engineer but a data analyst
BUT 90% of my job is coding.

[gritty rivet]

Or something very closely related but less common, like a degree in Software Engineering

[dreamy shadow]

lmao

[spark cobalt]

By choice

[river coral]

I'm turning 31 soon and got a wife and a kid. I have a masters in human resources. Never really worked in that field and have been self employed in real estate. Business got shut down. And now I need to acquire a skill to get a job. Not very interested in human resources. So, I was thinking about picking a coding career.

[vapid jay]

Like what @gritty rivet said

[river coral]

Non-CS degree. Just posted a little background above.

[dreamy shadow]

Learn a bit of coding, stats, add your HR degree and BAM. Data scientist.

[vapid jay]

I have a non-CS degree too!

[river coral]

When I say CS, I just mean a coding related degree that companies ask for.

[peak halo]

then my remark about young people without professional experience doesn't necessarily apply. a web development bootcamp might be a viable option?

[robust island]

If you already completed one degree, how hard is it to get another since you alr have the gen eds?

[white relic]

companies generally ask for "bachelor's degree in computer science or a related field," or some such wording

[vapid jay]

I got a call twice from the same someone for a helpdesk position.. Not sure if I should keep ignoring them or not...

[smoky quest]

It depends on what you aim for.
Typical CS is a high tech field that takes time and require a lot of skills. Self teaching it would take you months/years, thus you may want to find another job now until you are ready.
Without skills/education/experience, you will have to lower your expectations for your role and thus expected compensation.

[peak halo]

there are also post bach certificates that are basically the same as a second bachelors. but those might take more than a year.

[spark cobalt]

I think it just liked a lot cuz it vaguely suggests a roadmap to success, which is what like 75% of the self taught struggle, figuring out what to do.

[vapid jay]

Unless, you lie about it and get a low tech job

[spark cobalt]

Self taught isn't a new concept, but a path that works for everyone to the same extent as a degree is hard to come up with.

[gritty rivet]

Especially if your timeline is a year, I'd consider doing a bootcamp. This is what I did (my MA is in Sociology). Start with a few months of serious self-learning and then re-evaluate what you need. A year is ambitious but not absurd

[smoky quest]

Before jumping into it, have you built anything? Including a website?

[vapid jay]

I built a blackjack game.

[smoky quest]

if you can pass an interview like that, then you both deserve each others. That's also an incredibly stupid amount of risk you take

[vapid jay]

I'm not sure if that's a compliment or not... Your statements seems to go both ways...
.... fair enough

[smoky quest]

definitely not a compliment 😉

[brittle thorn]

Historically maybe older ... there was a time when universities didn't exist

[dreamy shadow]

Reason I brought up DS for them is because they have a masters + domain knowledge in HR (like it or not). Bar to entry is a little less on the coding side.

[vapid jay]

But is it not a frequent occurrence that jobs over state their requirements?

[smoky quest]

not at all. It's a common misconception from entry level engineers or people not familiar with the domain

[brittle thorn]

A lot of the time

[vapid jay]

Maybe @river coral is great with OTJ experience and learning

[robust island]

I mean if a job offer says they need x, y, and z and you only know x, I'd expect you're in for a rough time

[peak halo]

they're certainly not going to understate them.

[vapid jay]

@spark cobalt That's a shame. @dreamy shadow I'm based in Europe so the landscape may be different but I can understand the importance of securing a perm role in the states esp. with perks like that. Do you know if recruitment agencies or intermediaries cover healthcare for contract staff? @smoky quest Hahahaha, good point. I'm in tech recruitment so just trying to get a better understanding of whats going on rn from the candidate side

[river coral]

I am considering it but it requires a significant time commitment. I know about Microverse for web development. They want you to give them 8 hours every day for 5 days a week and you get a web dev job (almost guaranteed) after 10 months.

[summer roost]

It's really hard to quantify how disadvantaged you will be without a CS degree. You have some disadvantages (no formal computer science education) and some advantages (a proven history of working in some field, coming to work every day, working in a corporate environment, etc).

It's sort of a moot point, though, unless you think you can afford the time and money to go back to university. The question probably shouldn't be "how disadvantaged will I be", but instead "how can I make myself more attractive as a candidate"

[stable elbow]

Microverse? Sounds like Dev10

[smoky quest]

Right now, some companies are having layoffs but there are still companies hiring. So there are still good chances. Just don't undercut yourself

[dreamy shadow]

With no coding skills + degree not in CS, they will be very disadvantaged lol. They are essentially pivoting industries, which only a few companies will take that risk.

[river coral]

Python wise, I'm a total beginner. Is building a Wordpress site counted? Haha. Only got experience with Wordpress but I know you don't mean that. Know very basic HTML and CSS.

[stable elbow]

There is a benefit though skyglow. They are cheap

[spark cobalt]

This point is more null now than before.

[smoky quest]

I would suggest to explore a bit more and build more things. Just to make sure you are ready to commit to it and that you will enjoy it.

[spark cobalt]

They are cheap but they pertain a higher risk. With the hundreds of thousands of new grads struggling to get jobs, many will be willing to accept a job offer at a lower pay that might've been a pay originally given to a self taught person.

[dreamy shadow]

Not really sure I can help with that. I've never been a contract worker. There's def resources online though.

[river coral]

I agree. CS is a whole different ball game and is sorta separate from coding (from what I've learned on YouTube). You can be a coder but not know much about CS.

[smoky quest]

cheap != worth the risk.
There can be negative returns

[robust island]

Why have you decided on going for a programming job in particular?

[stable elbow]

Money, mobility, and milk

[dreamy shadow]

Hiring a bad coder will def sandbag you more than the salary cost difference.

[spark cobalt]

Tech YouTube (or tech social media in general) is pretty notorious for giving terrible information. Take it with a grain of salt.

[dreamy shadow]

For loops for everyone

[robust island]

Just one?

[river coral]

DS is Data Science? I'm really bad with math. Maybe I can do some basic stat but maybe hard for me to understand DS level stats.

[white relic]

Many people successfully turn non-coding experience into coding jobs by coding things that are in their domain of expertise. Nurses go into nursing informatics, IT techs go into devops, whatever. Maybe there is some way you can leverage your HR experience to get a job with a company that does... HR stuff, but needs programmers.

[dreamy shadow]

Yes, DS is Data Science. Role wise, is data scientist.

[gritty rivet]

There are part-time options. I did Nucamp. It's not the best but it's one of the cheapest and was a perfect fit for me. Doing it while working full time was intense but very possible

[vapid jay]

Np. Will look into it

[spark cobalt]

Is it possible to switch within your company? Many career switchers are able to land an interview through their current company.

[brittle thorn]

Yes better to get someone a cut above the minimum

[dreamy shadow]

Essentially, I'm trying to leverage your domain knowledge in HR. Experience is experience.

[peak halo]

@dreamy shadow I'm not sure that a masters in a non-STEM domain would really translate to data science.

[stable elbow]

You can always make friends with the resident old person in the company. They usually have connections galore

[river coral]

One of the high paying careers + possibility of remote work + I sit in front of computer all day anyway.

[robust island]

Programming can be difficult and it isn't for everyone, but I suppose money talks lol

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, it's a toss up. But with a few projects, I would say the MS puts them ahead of BS applicants.

[white relic]

I wouldn't consider an MS in anything to be qualifying for a data science position.
Unless it were in data science, obviously.

[dreamy shadow]

There is a good handful of DS who's grad degree is not in STEM. As long as they learn the necessary coding + stats, I don't think companies care that much.

[stable elbow]

I mean. The first hurdle is the HR person who might not know that

[robust island]

What masters are even in the tech field anyway

[gritty rivet]

All very valid, but you kind of have to love the work, or you'll learn to hate it. Start building stuff and see how it feels.

[brittle thorn]

Stepping stone to a PhD lmao

[dreamy shadow]

A good chunk of my interviews, the interviewer didn't have a stem grad* degree. They pivoted, etc.

[smoky quest]

that's kind of a myth that there is an uneducated HR in the middle randomly tossing out resumes

[dreamy shadow]

It's a ATS system that randomly tosses out resumes.

[stable elbow]

A myth I literally met at an interview today for a 500+ research firm

[smoky quest]

how else are you supposed to pass on unlucky candidates?

[river coral]

I only got a HR masters 5 years ago. That's it. No experience. Worked 5 months in a HR job which was paying peanuts so I quit and got into real estate. RE business is really bad right now and I will be moving so I will have to wind it up anyway and I need the stability of a job in a field that I won't hate (which is programming) and build a career. Also, I am planning to move to Canada (the very main reason why I need to make myself job-ready).

[stable elbow]

Why you moving to my home? You planning on invading?

[smoky quest]

not gonna lie, that sounds very weird

[robust island]

Hmm, how are you so sure you won't hate programming?

[stable elbow]

I was surprised too by the inexperience. But it exists. Interviewer didn't know what R packages were

[brittle thorn]

Lmao

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, I would fully understand what a career in programming embodies.

[smoky quest]

While I would not expect them to know what R packages mean, I also would not expect them to toss out resumes beyond the obvious ones

[vapid jay]

wat r R packages?

[stable elbow]

Half the interview was technical questions...about R

[river coral]

This is good advice. So far the rough path I have in mind is > Python for backend + maybe Django for web framework and HTML/CSS/JS for front end. And become a full stack dev?

[brittle thorn]

Maybe it was scripted

[dreamy shadow]

Do you mind me asking what your undergrad was?

[stable elbow]

It was definitely scripted.

[vapid jay]

Unless... R as in the R language?

[white relic]

fwiw, just because programming is a well-paid field on average, doesn't mean that you will be competing for the well-paid positions within it.
Unless you are able to leverage your existing non-coding experience in some way, you will probably be competing for basic entry level positions and you will be competing with fresh grads who do have relevant degrees.

[stable elbow]

Yes the language

[brittle thorn]

Ok someone else wrote the questions so they may indeed not be that qualified to gauge you lmao

[river coral]

Bachelors of Social Sciences, specialization in Development Studies.

Masters of Management, specialization in HRM.

[stable elbow]

But that is the first line of defence to a resume. Speaking of which, my boomer resume is doing great

[vapid jay]

I have experience in everything except plumbing and waitering .... 😦 Anyone haz advice for meez?

[stable elbow]

Even though I pretty much stopped applying for 2 weeks. Still getting 2-3 interviews a week

[vapid jay]

Your advice is questionable 🧐

[stable elbow]

It's not advice, but a statement :p

[brittle thorn]

So you got experience being an astronaut and president lmao

[river coral]

I 100% agree and have the same thoughts.

[vapid jay]

i participated in a astronaut training thing that they have at the pool and wore a spacesuit before ! ... not a president... but i do have sup exp...

and gov experience for small municipalities

[stable elbow]

@vapid jay it's simple then. Use your espionage skills to stalk the tech lead at a large company. Find out when his kids birthday party is. Freelance as a clown. Strike up a conversation when he asks why you decided to be a clown, and say you are trying to be a programmer but times are tough. Get hired out of sympathy nepotism

[robust island]

indeed

[vapid jay]

well... i'm not sure about the kids bday party and clown act... but i am espionaging a few it depts in my area

[brittle thorn]

Write this as a script sell to Hollywood make millions

[gritty rivet]

If full stack web development appeals to you, I'd say focus on learning the basics of JavaScript and then start building simple projects with different frameworks. Even if you struggle, if you like it enough to keep at it, you'll get there eventually, There are plenty of free tutorials you can follow but beware of "tutorial hell".... focus on passion projects, build what you want to build.

[stable elbow]

Please tanuki. That's stupid. Netflix is far more likely to take the deal

[vapid jay]

Netflix is the new Hollywood

[smoky quest]

not too far off though.
If you live in a neighborhood with a lot of tech people, it's not uncommon to establish relationships when kids go to bday or go to the same school

[vapid jay]

.com ?

[vapid jay]

i wonder where all the tech people live at...

[brittle thorn]

Expensive places

[delicate bane]

im sure theres some lists somewhere

[brittle thorn]

Some place with a Starbucks nearby maybe

[smoky quest]

It's one of these things that if you have to ask...

[brittle thorn]

What about as entrepreneur?

[stable elbow]

5 bucks, alot of em are living it up as digital nomads on the beaches of Latin america

[vapid jay]

i've had a few unofficial businesses.. i stopped that when the wear and tear was too much
setting up the llc... getting people to pay on time... people forgetting they had to pay me...
it wasn't worth the hassle

[brittle thorn]

Nice resume then lmao

[brittle thorn]

Ever tried teaching... your stories could inspire the next generation...pay low thou

[vapid jay]

did that too.. prefer not to talk about the horror stories of other peoples kids ... its sad

no offense to the young kats lurking here... 😂

[brittle thorn]

I tried teaching for a year so yeah...also got startup horror stories

World is sad place

[vapid jay]

yup... now.. back to programming careers!

[brittle thorn]

When the big corps are cutting back lmao

Wait a few years there will be a boom again

[vapid jay]

... I really don't want too.. but I've gotten a call twice from the same person... about a helpdesk job... but the pay sucks 50k... and its not in comp sci... Not sure how desperate i am...

i really want a SWE job tho...

[brittle thorn]

So it will depend on how desperate you are... build skills if you can while out of the job market

What niche do you want do go in SWE is big

[vapid jay]

🤔 which niche are you in?

[brittle thorn]

Backend mostly

[vapid jay]

backend is like 90% of end.. front being the other 10% 😂

[brittle thorn]

I had DS roles in past...done web and desktop

That 10% is annoying thou

[vapid jay]

what's DS?

[brittle thorn]

Data Science

[vapid jay]

Masters I assume then?

[brittle thorn]

Units only in a stem field

Dropped out as soon as Uni hired me lmao

[vapid jay]

... i just thought about this statement... you sly dog you 🧐

[delicate bane]

bruh.

so one of my friends is an international student. had a hard time getting a job after his masters even though he had previous work experience from his home country. its because he had to get sponsorship for his visa.

just got a call from him and now hes moved across the country to connecticut since his new role requires him to be hybrid...

[true harness]

is this "bruh."?

[vapid jay]

is this really a 'bruh' moment ? 🤔

[delicate bane]

idk but he seems kinda miserable. especially since all his friends and his sister are over here in texas

[brittle thorn]

So life maybe too short if you move away but it could be reframed as an adventure...he or she should enjoy it

[stable elbow]

is he in tech tho?

[delicate bane]

yeah

[stable elbow]

he can prob come back rather soon then if thats what he wants.

[delicate bane]

most likely. hes just unlucky since apparently if youre international you have a very limited amount of time to get visa sponsorship after graduating. i think he wouldve had better luck if he did internships while in school

but he already had 3 yoe in his home country as a java dev so he thought he would be fine. guess not.

[stable elbow]

dang.

[spark cobalt]

That's a real bruh moment

[bleak pine]

hi guys someone of you are working as a programmer or something like that?

[smoky quest]

In general, that's like 1 year. Not that limited

[smoky quest]

Hi! Some people are, some aren't and others are on their way

[west badger]

I am an Indian student and want some advice as I want to apply for a university in the US after 12th . I saw some of the universities for CS degree . Let me know if any of them are good or tell me if you have any other university suggestions.
1.University of wisconsin madison
2.University of Texas at Austin
3.University of Washington

[spark cobalt]

Hmmm out of the list Texas might be your best shot. Reputable school, pretty respected CS program, and also located very nicely in a up and becoming tech hub (if it isn't already to be considered one) which location is a huge bonus for students in terms of internships and whatnot, there ends up being little need to relocate.

[west badger]

What about the fees?
Or do you have any other suggestions?

[spark cobalt]

Stanford

Idk what kind of tuition + aid exists for foreign students, maybe someone else can input on this but I'm pretty sure this is also easily Googable.

[west badger]

That's so hard

[spark cobalt]

UC Berkeley, Carnegie Mellon, MIT, GeorgiaTech

[lapis cloak]

any one plz help me to identify the errors in my algo trading strategy

[spark cobalt]

#1035199133436354600/ #❓｜how-to-get-help , this channel is for careers.

[delicate bane]

oh man i think thats doable. i think he gave up too early then

maybe it was a financial reason

[bleak pine]

and wbu?

[spark cobalt]

He's one of the dads of #career-advice

[west badger]

How can I get into University of Texas at Austin as an Indian for undergrad CS degree?
I really need help with this

[near ocean]

Your best bet is contacting an undergrad admissions person at the university and asking
Randoms on a discord channel cant really help you

[west badger]

I need to know how

[near ocean]

How to contact them? Look them up on google and find an email

[west badger]

I can't find one

[near ocean]

Are you sure you tried?

[turbid dome]

for people who are already working, how is the vibe in your company these days? given the spree of layoffs in various big name companies?

[west badger]

What did you search?

[near ocean]

university of texas undergraduate admissions contact

[spark cobalt]

Great since our company's growing. We more than doubled last year and we're excited to do the same this year.

[west badger]

I have one more question
Is a cs degree from one college and a cs degree from another college different?

[spark cobalt]

In what way?

[west badger]

Like just the degree

[near ocean]

Not in any way that matters

[west badger]

So I can get a cs degree from any college and apply for a job that requires a cs degree?

[near ocean]

Yes, a college that is accredited

[west badger]

Accredited meaning??

[near ocean]

Come on we're not a dictionary service here

[west badger]

Ok

[spark cobalt]

Pretty much yeah. I've heard some managers immediately filter out some strictly online schools from prior bad experience with students from there or other very low tier school, but for the colleges you've laid out it isn't an issue.

[near ocean]

Accredited means its passing some standard that an accreditation agency set out

[west badger]

So only the education is different from college to college?

[spark cobalt]

The education should be at least similar in terms of the topics covered. The quality may differ.

[west badger]

Is University of Texas hard for Indians?

[spark cobalt]

And no. Colleges like Stanford have deep connections with companies that a Tier 2 company might not have. Other things like location can play a huge impact in terms of landing internships, startup culture/support, etc.

[spark cobalt]

I don't know why it would be specifically harder for Indians than any other foreign students???? What are these questions lol

[west badger]

Which university would you guys suggest for international students to get a CS degree form and with less fees as I am from a middle class family

[west badger]

Lol I'm sorry for that question

[near ocean]

I would recommend not a US uni if money is an issue lol

[spark cobalt]

Ok this seems like you did absolutely 0 research on your own. Do your own research and if there's something that's troubling then ask.

Anyone that would try to help you, unless they're a foreign student from India that is middle class and went to University of Texas for CS (which is very very few people) would just Google it.

[west badger]

I searched for some universities but why take like more than 80k fees

[spark cobalt]

Because of bad legislation.

[white relic]

80k per what?

[west badger]

Full course not just per semester or per year

[spark cobalt]

I.e., student loans were made to be pretty much unbankruptable, allowing for banks to freely loan out money to students while taking in 0 risk. This caused for every American's student's spending power to drastically increase which was one of the big root causes of the now high prices of education.

[west badger]

I have did some research

[white relic]

yeah I mean... that's US education

[spark cobalt]

The only reason it's not infinity is because of foreign students and some other edge cases.

You should also research into potential aid programs in India and America to assist with the cost.

[white relic]

Most people don't pay the full sticker price.

[spark cobalt]

^

[near ocean]

Why do you want to go to the US for CS in the first place

[west badger]

Because my cousin said so and I also have interest there as I love US education system

[near ocean]

Lmao...

[white relic]

if getting into the US and paying for it isn't a problem, it may be easier to get into an American university to study STEM than an Indian one. That's what I've gathered anyway.

[spark cobalt]

What about US education do you love? How is it any different from Indian higher education?

[white relic]

Those are pretty big ifs though.

[spark cobalt]

Also the US education system is top down super fucked, I don't really know what's there to love.

[west badger]

Indian education system is just the worst
You can ask any Indian about this and they would agree

[buoyant seal]

They will not learn Chemistry and Biology in CS degree 🤣

[spark cobalt]

You can also ask any American about it and they'll say the American education system sucks too lol

[west badger]

Lol education sucks

[spark cobalt]

That just went a whole 180

[near ocean]

Your options are not Indian or US, theres so many more other countries available lol

[spark cobalt]

There are other super reputable colleges that are very cheap or may even come free for you. For example, Waterloo in Canada.

[west badger]

The real reason I want to study in US as they will provide me a visa through which I can work there for 3-4 years

[white relic]

what's great about the US education system is that you are in the US when you are in it, and so you are well positioned to apply to US jobs and find a company to offer an H1B

[white relic]

that's why most international students do it

It's harder to do networking, go to conferences, call in to phone interviews, in person interviews, etc. when you're on the other side of the world. And there are probably some benefits as well in getting accustomed to the culture before you have to start looking for a job.

[spark cobalt]

This sounds wrong lol, even extensions don't cover nearly this long. More research to do.

[white relic]

they probably mean 3-4 years while studying

That said, work visas are mostly offered to Master's or PhD graduates, so if you plan to stay in the US after school, you need a longer term plan than that

like getting married

[spark cobalt]

Seems like there's some extra regulations to make sure you can do that. https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/students-and-exchange-visitors/students-and-employment @west badger

May also want to look at: https://www.ice.gov/sevis/employment#offCE

[wraith bramble]

Yes very much, as a 4th year robotics student i can totally agree and confirm this fact...

[vapid jay]

I've found that ChatGPT allows me to guess the job title based on the job description. Too bad its paywalled now...

[crimson light]

Hi, i'm going for a job interview, what are some good strenths/weaknesses?

[vapid jay]

Good strengths and weakness are those you know yourself..

[white relic]

the point of the question is that you answer for yourself, not just give some cookie cutter answer

"my greatest weakness is that I don't have a social life and sometimes I work too hard" 🙄

interviewers know those lines

[vapid jay]

what does 'cookie cutter' mean? its an analogy i hear a lot but never really cared to understand until now....

[true harness]

"I'm a perfectionist"

[white relic]

a cookie cutter is a tool that you use to cut shapes out of dough.
it makes cookies that all look the same, so a cookie-cutter answer is one that is just the same as all the others

[spark cobalt]

Issue with cookie cutter answers is the follow-up question. You end up completely exposing yourself as a bullshitter.

[true harness]

what follow up question do you ask to "what's your biggest weakness"?

[white relic]

In an interview, you want to give answers that distinguish you from other candidates. Reading strengths and weaknesses off a list doesn't tell the interviewer anything useful about you.
and at worst, it could put you in a bad job you're not suited for

[spark cobalt]

If they say "I'm a perfectionist" then they'll ask "can you provide me an example where this has caused issues" or something along the lines of that

[crimson light]

well i'm unorganized as shit but i'm not going to say that lol

[spark cobalt]

If you say it like that, then that may pose to be an issue.

[white relic]

The way to answer "weakness" questions is to describe a weakness, and go on to explain how you deal with it.

[spark cobalt]

Everyone has weaknesses especially in the workplace. Working towards remedying them is really all anyone can ask for.

[turbid dome]

do people really care about answer to question like "what's your strengths and weaknesses?"
any interviewers who could shed some light on this?

[vapid jay]

the usual answer is to provide a 'strength' that sounds like a weakness... workaholic... perfectionist ... etc...

[white relic]

Like, I have trouble focusing when I have to work on something for long periods of time. One way I deal with that is by having multiple tasks to work on, so I can switch to something else when I get restless.

[vapid jay]

I like this answer better.... its actually the best answer i've heard so far in comparison to years ago when they gave me the whole idea to mask a strength as a weakness.... or vice versa...

[white relic]

I've not asked that question, and I haven't been asked it either, not since I was in high school. It doesn't invite very useful or interesting answers.

[brittle thorn]

Lmao Job... Superhero....weakness some silly thing that glows green

[spark cobalt]

That's what we call bullshitting.

[vapid jay]

which part? 🤔

[spark cobalt]

I mean every question acts as some sort of filter. If your weakness is you're incredibly racist, then there you have it.

[white relic]

It's very common (bad) advice. I got the same thing in HS. even one of the people I interviewed with gave me this "tip". All I can say is that I don't care to work for the kind of place that would filter me out for being honest about my weaknesses.

[brittle thorn]

If the reply is too scripted it might lead to a turn off

[spark cobalt]

Not everyone can hide the smell of shit.

[brittle thorn]

Some can polish it thou well

[near ocean]

Just say you've had anxiety about social situations and how you've pushed yourself to overcome it
Its common enough that people wont question it and it shows you did something about it

[turbid dome]

ha that's fair enough. though i suspect not many people will shoot themselves in the foot like that.

[brittle thorn]

Best reply maybe to tell a story to frame yourself overcoming weakness like a hero

[spark cobalt]

Another route for this question is also being relatable to the interviewer. But this comes with not bullshitting and just being human.

[sleek egret]

lol, that sounds like university application advice

[white relic]

You should know your own weaknesses, just as a general life thing.

[vapid jay]

I like to use the spartan 300 theme when I frame my overcoming of weaknesses

[brittle thorn]

Nah it's script writing advice lmao

[spark cobalt]

Stories of prejudice comes up quite a lot lol. Like an interviewee assuming the interviewers race or that they can speak a certain language etc.

Little things like that, that can irk the interviewer the wrong way happens quite a lot and they're easily avoidable.

[brittle thorn]

Or age or sex

[sleek egret]

be sure to express your political views clearly and repeatedly'

looks like a beautiful breezy day today, 55F (13C) with 18 kt winds

perfect sailing weather!

[spark cobalt]

Wait I wanna come

[true harness]

"i like the cut of your jib"

[gritty rivet]

It's a bad/stupid question, but when it comes up, I'm careful to target my strength to something relevant to the role, and when I have to talk about a weakness I emphasize the strategies I use to overcome it.

[peak torrent]

Good morning guys, My school provides me with a free account in O'reilly. Wondering which book/course you guys recommend. I'm in my first year of CS. Thanks 😄 PD: I like Data science.

Any advice will be appreciate it

[sleek egret]

all of them!

what about data science do you like?

[near ocean]

The salary

[sleek egret]

lol

"data science" is a funny term. it's not science about data (that's statistics or ontology), and it's not data about science (that's the history of science, I guess?)

[peak torrent]

I do a lot of web scrapping. I'm doing a personal project with a real state company then using Matplotlib to visualize the data

[sleek egret]

well, if you're serious about "data science", you'll take a few semesters of statistics and perhaps stochastic calc. depending on the type of data you're dealing with, other math courses.

[peak torrent]

Thanks, but is there a course or book that you guys say is a plus to read/complete ?

I want to take advantage of my subscription. That shit is expensive :/

[sleek egret]

everything that is not language/tool specific plus the language/tool specific ones for the languages/tools you use

[buoyant seal]

have u already learned how to work with classes/inheritence/polymormism stuff?

[peak torrent]

No

[buoyant seal]

I want to recommend this book as must have for reading
https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/code-complete-2nd/0735619670/ Comrehensive reading about coding in general, covering all aspects of it
and this
https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/unit-testing-principles/9781617296277/ Unit testing stuff

But in order to understand them, better to learn DSA + OOP first.
With this
https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/grokking-algorithms/9781617292231/
and something for OOP 🤔
Then https://www.amazon.com/Python-Object-Oriented-Programming-maintainable-object-oriented/dp/1801077266
then definitely Head First Design Patterns in addition 😆

[white relic]

I like the Head First series, but it's not everyone's cup of tea

[peak torrent]

Thaaaaannk you dude!!! That's why was talking. Thanks a lot... I bough the physical of grokking algorithms.

tbh I want to learn from basics. I want to get better in my programming logic

Sucks tbh

[buoyant seal]

oh, i checked content of https://www.amazon.co.uk/Head-First-Object-Oriented-Analysis-Design/dp/0596008678
it is not OOP, it is System analysis and design. Must have for learning eventually, but it can be learned later side way.
We need something OOP to read before diving into Code Comlete + Unit testing

this looks like a good option
https://www.amazon.com/Python-Object-Oriented-Programming-maintainable-object-oriented/dp/1801077266
4th edition especially tells it should be great book. Reviews look great, and i checked its menu

P.S. fixed my original msg #career-advice message

[delicate bane]

good resource from the pragmatic engineer https://stackoverflow.blog/2020/11/25/how-to-write-an-effective-developer-resume-advice-from-a-hiring-manager/

[true harness]

One last thing I need to call out, as developers seeking jobs bring it up: the application tracking systems (ATS), and robots “rejecting” your resume. This is false. Your resume will be read by a human. At tech companies, ATSes do not “reject” resumes, and “robot rejection” does not exist in tech.

[delicate bane]

wait i thought that was the case sometimes. also this is biased towards only tech-first companies. what about traditional enterprises

this seemed to be true at least

Keep regional and cultural differences in mind as you craft your resume. For example, in most of the US, a one-page resume is the norm for developers with less than a few years’ experience. Even more senior people aim to fit everything important on the first page. In most of Europe, resumes of two pages are common, and some hiring managers actually prefer to read longer resumes for senior people. Whatever the length, make sure you communicate the relevant parts first. Use the space wisely, elaborating more on your experiences and results that relate to the position you are applying for.

interesting about the european bit

[peak torrent]

Thank you dude!!! I will share when I finish the first one.

[vapid jay]

Bit late, but unless you are really well-off, this is not very feasible

Even with aid and scholarships you will be spending tens of lakhs of rupees

[sour panther]

I have a question for the more seasoned of you:

I currently work with doing some simple manual data logging for a small company.
I get payed $10 an hour and am expected to log 28 files with 6 rows each every day (really easy work tbh)
The work load is expected to increase as time goes on however

In my free time I recently created a script that will do my work for me every day. It is code that is easy to read and upkeep by anyone with simple programming and HTTP knowledge.

so my question is;
What would be an appropriate amount to ask for if I was to sell this program to them?

[smoky quest]

• First I would check your contract. Anything done on company resources, time or related to it is typically owned by the company. So there wouldn't be anything to sell as it already belongs to them
• It's a specific piece of software for them. So there is no well defined pricing strategy other than what they are willing to pay
• You could also use that in other ways than just selling the software per say. You could use that to show them the value of automation and how you could help them do more with less and switch your role from manual data entry to developing tools for them

[zealous path]

As @smoky quest CAREFULLY READ YOUR CONTRACT
Some companies might throw you a “gotcha” moment, fire you and take your code since what’s the reason to pay you if it’s all automated.

[zealous path]

And although it’s a specific piece of software so pricing might be iffy.
Definitely should go for a
Pay X time spent a day on this X days in a week doing this X 52 X some amount of years you’d expect this system to be necessary for

Might give you at least a price range to look for so you don’t get ripped off

[sour panther]

Time spent for a human or for the script?

[zealous path]

The script is replacing a human so I’d say I expect to pay 80%ish the amount I’d pay the human

Also, as was said earlier. You can also choose between a quick pay out (which might be difficult and a lot of negotiating) or a nice job title change that could open up doors for you

[delicate bane]

short term vs long term

[zealous path]

Tho, if you have “I developed a $XX,XXX software for Y company” on your CV, I’d be well impressed

@sour panther also, you’d be responsible for a project of your own design, where if you left, got paid and found a dev job somewhere else, you’d do other people’s projects

[sour panther]

would it still be impressive if it was in the $X,XXX range?

[zealous path]

Generally an automated software sells for $10,000+ if it’s custom.

[smoky quest]

There is more to it than the pure $$$ amount. Obviously, a number with more digits is more impressive. But you also have to look at the skills it demonstrates:

• You took upon yourself to improve the situation and did not just sit back
• The breadth and depth of the software you have developed demonstrate some skills. The more interesting the software, the more points you get

[zealous path]

You get paid
$10/hour
$400/week (at 40hours a week)
$19,200/year (working 48 weeks)
You’re already being paid a large amount so although the code should be cheaper than a human, you need to evaluate the value it gives the company

[smoky quest]

note also that in terms of pricing, you could go cost based (how much it cost to develop it end ot end) or impact based (how much it saves or generate for the end user)

[zealous path]

^^^^^^^^^
@sour panther can also give an estimate for how long it took you to develop this and multiply it by a standard rate

[sour panther]

@zealous path @smoky quest It may be worth noting that the software is 100% custom. It involves 0 APIs, 4 standard libraries and 0 custom libraries

[zealous path]

Definitely the 5digit range MINIMUM

@sour panther seems like an interesting read
https://www.goodcore.co.uk/blog/cost-to-develop-software/

[smoky quest]

tbh, unless we are talking high 5 digit or lines of codes, that won't amount to much.
You may get a lot more value out of it to leverage it for your career than a quick pay out

[sour panther]

@smoky quest @zealous path oh another thing that may be worth noting, I am currently 17, and the company in questions gets a large portion of their funding from the state

[zealous path]

Career.
Definitely wanna look for a title change.
You got a long way ahead of you and a kick start like that will help a lot

[delicate bane]

ah so they probably wont have money lol

[sour panther]

funding from the sate
yeah nah, no money there
They have a lot of money tbh...

[delicate bane]

ok yeah they have money but depending on the state, theyre not allowed much discretionary spending. at least thats how it was when i worked in an org that got funding from the state in uni

[sleek egret]

stasi?

[balmy zephyr]

Do backend developers make good salary?

[true harness]

depends on location, but generally yes

[gritty rivet]

The range is wide depending on location, experience, etc.

https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer?title=Backend+Software+Engineer

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/back-end-developer-salary-SRCH_KO0,18.htm

[true harness]

massive discrepancy between those two numbers lmao

[prime tiger]

relatively comfortable with python (know the following : while/if/functions/for/data structures).

I'm looking for co-programming, or for a more senior python developer to work with on projects

can anyone help?

[near ocean]

What are the levels.fyi people on... Could sure use some of it

[spark cobalt]

Huge bias for big tech on levels.fyi

[dreamy shadow]

And self-selection bias.

[balmy zephyr]

Thank you

[sleek egret]

depends on where you are

[vapid jay]

i need help with python will cashapp 10 bucks

[sleek egret]

asking for or offering money ist verboten on this server

this server is run by commies or something. but rules are rules.

[true harness]

10 bucks isn't a very good wage. you need at least 50/hr. also, it's not allowed

[vapid jay]

ok

[tidal socket]

to people who have a job, to people who are at uni and bored, eh

[near ocean]

You'd do work for 10$? Not even per hour, 10$ total

I personally wouldnt even read the message for that kind of cash

[tidal socket]

i mean, if i could do it in like 20m, probably, and just say it took an hour

[sleek egret]

my minimum is 4 hours

[true harness]

my fast food job pays 15

[sleek egret]

I delivered pizzas for like $3/hr

[true harness]

adjusted for inflation that's probably like 30/hr

[near ocean]

I bet you walked uphill both ways too, rmah
In the snow as well

[sleek egret]

$8.75/hr actually

[delicate bane]

and survivorship bias

also i heard an interesting bit on a podcast

apparently at big tech companies (i.e. Amazon, etc.) there are these roles called Technical PROJECT Managers (not product) who are in charge of multi-team efforts that require a massive undertaking. the example on the podcast was leading a migration effort from oracle even though the majority of the aws services were using oracle.

the guest was saying these types of people usually end up becoming great managers in other places like software since theyre good at "stakeholder alignment" lol

[smoky quest]

they don't really manage anything. They help teams talk to each others and track stuff on spreadsheets

[delicate bane]

oh really? so they wouldnt make good managers?

[smoky quest]

I actually don't envy them as it's like herding cats. All the responsibilities but none of the levers

[delicate bane]

yeah the host was like "every time i hear stakeholder alignment, i think of game of thrones" 💀

[smoky quest]

The PM (product) and the EM control what the teams do. The project manager can only write it down in a spreadsheet and suggest

[delicate bane]

man that sounds like a nightmare role tbh

idk how multiple teams are supposed to work together. just seems difficult to imagine

[true harness]

the spotify model~

[delicate bane]

oh yeah the infamous spotify model

well i guess outside of big tech, i cant imagine it

[smoky quest]

that's why delivery teams are so popular

[delicate bane]

[sleek egret]

it is difficult to manage

what's even harder is when you have to manage multiple teams of teams

[sleek egret]

I have a buddy works in gov contracting. he's a manager at a subcontractor that prime contractors hire to manage other subcontractors.

essentially, he manages managers that manage managers (at subcontractors) on behalf of managers of managers (at prime contractors)

I'm not exaggerating here. and he hates his job.

[delicate bane]

there was someone here previously that has a similar job. idk if you were around when that convo happened

oh wait nvm. the someone was on the government side. all i remember is that every one of the contractors they worked with made more than them.

which i mean compensation isnt everything. iirc they said they enjoyed their job

[sleek egret]

taxpayers don't like it when the gov hires good people at high prices directly. they prefer for the gov to hire companies at crazy prices who then pay market rates.

btw, if you've ever wondered why there are so many "managers", consider the following: let's say at every layer of a hierarchy, 80% of people/units are engaged in meaningful activity and 20% are engaged in coordination/management/support roles.

that means, with 5 levels, and let's say each layer can manage 4 sub-units, that's 1000 people... and only 32% of the total staff are individual contributors!

if the split is 75%/25% and there are six, it's WAY worse at only 18% are individual contributors

erm, six layers

a 4000 person company is large... but it's not crazy large. and dozens of studies have shown that people have difficulty managing more than 3 to 5 subunits

[vapid jay]

Im aiming to be a data scientist but I'm unsure where do I start... It would be great if someone sends me a file, YouTube link or something which would help me get started... Google is just confusing me

[peak halo]

where are you in life, generally? what credentials do you have? what country are you in (without giving a precise location)?

[vapid jay]

I'm currently a student, parents told me to research on data scientist. I'm in India

[peak halo]

I see. hopefully a professional in India can give you better advice.

[vapid jay]

Oh ok thank you

[rain ore]

Is computer engineering and software engineering relatively similar?

my closest university only offers computer engineering, and I'm wondering if I could pivot to software engineering in the long run? (please @ me)

[pine sleet]

Computer engineering focuses more on the hardware side of things, software engineering focuses more on software (as the name implies)
You probably could pivot over later down the road, it's not like a drastic difference

[peak halo]

I think there might be places where "computer engineering" is what we call "software engineering".

this curriculum seems to jump back and forth between software and hardware topics https://collegedunia.com/courses/bachelor-of-engineering-be-computer-engineering

[rain ore]

for context, im in canada and the closest university is University of Toronto

its well known for that program and probably the best alongside Waterloo

[delicate bane]

wait what my friend was telling me about toronto's CS program. are you sure youve looked at it closely

[rain ore]

Yea, i have asked one of the people that go to that school

he says you can change from inside the course to software engineering.... hope im not wrong in choosing it 😬

still haven't submitted my grade 11 courses yet @delicate bane

[delicate bane]

hmm i think you should look on their website again bud

https://web.cs.toronto.edu/

[summer roost]

notably, that's still >20% above the current federal minimum wage.

(Not trying to necro, just that was the message Discord jumped me to when I opened the channel 😄)

[sleek egret]

uh huh

[summer roost]

didn't notice how old it was before replying, heh

[summer roost]

while I'm necroing stuff, the phrase "scrum of scrums" makes me irrationally angry

[sleek egret]

lol

I have found that booze helps with that

[smoky quest]

they do have their use though, the pms, not the booze. Coordinating multiple times to reduce risk and increasing predictability is a useful but thankless task

[summer roost]

(and you probably got tips (OK I'm done))

[sleek egret]

as a pointy haired sometimes pm, I need to agree with recursive_error

[summer roost]

a well managed gantt chart is a beautiful thing

[sleek egret]

everyone ignores my project tracking charts

[smoky quest]

making them is already tricky. Keeping them up to date (and on track) is gold

that said, it has never stopped an EM from ignoring them 🙈

especially when the PMs are trying to change every teams' way of working for their own convenience

[sleek egret]

I pay them. that means they work for me. thus my convenience is the most important convenience.

[smoky quest]

that is typically the sign of failure

[sleek egret]

are you calling me a failure?

[smoky quest]

I assume you know better and are joking.
But in case, when someone has to call in their boss card to force someone, it's a sign of failure in the process and events that have lead to that

[sleek egret]

you don't think that some people aren't anti-social and disruptive?

[smoky quest]

That's a non-sequitur.
You can build high performing teams out of many social traits. But if you have to call in your boss card, it does create resentment and shows that every other avenue has failed.

Plus, the "boss" is rather a stakeholder than a project manager. The project managers tend to have all the problems but none of the powers

[sleek egret]

isn't the boss allowed to feel resentful?

[pearl saddle]

anyone can suggest a good book or two for C and C++, im learning C right now, wanna learn basics for C then jump into C++

[smoky quest]

It depends on the expected outcome.
Do you think there is a positive or negative correlation with that?

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
That has nothing to do with #career-advice . You may want to look at #python-community or one of the off-topic channel

[pearl saddle]

hello @smoky quest !

[sleek egret]

I think bosses are people too!

[pearl saddle]

oh ok

[sleek egret]

@pearl saddle we can discuss careers writing C and C++

[smoky quest]

technically, not really as it isn't related to python and the world of work.
By the same token, we can't talk about the best breakfast nor our bowel movements, even if they do contribute to a great career

[pearl saddle]

well im at just learning phase, wanna learn C then convert some on my projects from python to C, maybe improve them a bit and make some more along the way

[sleek egret]

I'd rather not talk about my bowel movements

[west badger]

What do I fill here

[white relic]

India, I suppose? (IIRC)

[west badger]

@white relic How do you know I am Indian

[white relic]

it came up before

[quiet wing]

i dont think this is a career based question but im kind of confused rn on what to do, i am kind of an intermediate in python and i dont know what to do next can someone please guide me?

[buoyant seal]

experienced with questioning others and finding out they know pretty much nothing, lets start from zero of trying to find out where you are at the moment
Do you know how to use loops/if/switches and writing simple algorithms?
have you learned how to use classes and from python packages?
do you know what is OOP, and polymorphism, encapsulation, SOLID and etc?
have you learned Data structures and algorithms, and knowing what linked list, hash map and graphs?
do you know what is development lifecycle? what is supposed to be done before code is started being written?
do you know what is unit testing?

[quiet wing]

alright thanks for helping me

[buoyant seal]

i can't help you until i find where you are at the moment. No point to recommend resources which are too early for you, or the opposite too late
be honest in answering, and then it would be possible to recommend most needed stuff 🙂
intermediate level means nothing. people think of pretty different what is intermediate. same intermediate can be from intern level to middle ranked enterprise development

[quiet wing]

i have learnt loops/if/switches and simple algorithims and OOP thats pretty much it(and ofc the basics)

[buoyant seal]

have you become familiar with dictionaries/hashmaps? and understanding when to use them in comparison to lists?

[quiet wing]

yep i have not hashmaps tho

[buoyant seal]

great. then i can recommend next resources for you. Code Complete by McConnel and TDD by Kent beck. Weaponize yourself 🙂

Start from Code Complete
or from Unit testing, does not matter a lot.
Both are equally super useful at your stage to level up considerably your code quality
Besides that Head First Design Patterns can be also started at any moment learned

[quiet wing]

alright ty

[buoyant seal]

u a welcome.
Code Complete is very important book to understand process of code writing in general, it will help you to understand when it is time to split code to functions and to classes. How to write code if you don't know from where to start, how to debug code at a scientific level. It is brief introduction to everything, including refactoring/testing and even how to speak with your manager and other non tech people. Pretty comrehensive reading covering everything, including what possible tooling exist to help development. Hehe, one book of survival guide to capital wasteland software development.

Unit testing and TDD, cover in depth how to prepare your code for being written better with minimum effort. It will make a room to improve your code further, cleaning it up without a feat it will stop working, important technically to understand other books better

and Head First Design Patterns will extend your OOP knowledge in a brain friendly way, it will help to understand materials of other books better too

[quiet wing]

i see, Any projectts i should try doing after i read these books?

[buoyant seal]

Those are all books for generic core software engineering education, improving your skills regardless of the used language. Think what fancies you and do any project you wish.
some CLI tool, or Discord bot, or anything else you desire and within capabilities of Python.

[west badger]

I have a question that can I get a bachelor's degree and then do a job for 2-3 years and after that i will try to gte the masters degree for tha(in my case computer science)

[buoyant seal]

sure. but highly likely it will not make sense... once you have 3 years of experience, it is harmful to career to make large interruptions, it will make more sense to continue

3 years of exp after bachelor's degree and continuing to work is usually more valuable than continuing getting master's degree

[west badger]

so like if a job says i need a cs degree then does that mean the bachelors degree or masters or what

[white relic]

jobs usually say what degree is required, if it just says "degree" that would be unusual

[near ocean]

If they dont say they want a masters that means the degree is a bachelors

[buoyant seal]

degree is to put foot into work space, with a jump start to make easier your first years. for regular software engineering jobs bachelor's degree is all that is required.
master's and higher is valued only among data scientists. Also master's degree can easier immigrational processes.

[near ocean]

And yes you can go for a masters after you start working
Half of my class in my masters were people in their 30s, with jobs already, some of which had their companies pay for the masters entirely

[white relic]

that's... very broad and seems like bad advice for many people

[buoyant seal]

ergh, in his case, when he plans to get 3 years of experience and then continuing to work or getting master's degree... that is perfectly fitting his situation

[white relic]

many people get master's degrees after experience

you don't have to stop working

[west badger]

i just wanna be a software developer

[near ocean]

Finish your degree then and get a job

[west badger]

so is that important to get masters degree

[white relic]

no

[buoyant seal]

well, if you are master enough to master master's degree without interrupting your main work.. sure but does it trully matter at this point? work gets you learning experience constantly + your educate yourself in addition + even internal company studying. There is no kind of point to visit university any longer

[white relic]

but if you want to get a H1B visa in the US, like we were talking about the other day, then it will be easier with a MS

[west badger]

And one more thing that I need university suggestions for me that I can get into easily with less tution fees in the us for bachelors degree in cs?(please)

[near ocean]

No one can answer that for you, we're not admissions staff, we dont know your situation

[west badger]

what situation

[buoyant seal]

if you plan immigrations, then probably yes, if you plan pursuing data science degree, then probably yes. if you aren't psychologiclaly ready to work, then master's degree is nice delay again. Otherwise, better not wasting time and getting to work xD

Can't say for all countries, but in mine, master's degree is more or less copy pasting of bachelors' degree. Made sense only when switching specialization a bit
If you are scientific gifted to get university program at exceptional level, may be master's degree will benefit you greatly though

[near ocean]

Part of doing a degree is doing some research and work on your own

[west badger]

please just one or two suggestions

[white relic]

you have a habit of making very broad statements based on what seem to be naive assumptions about how everyone's career must work. I think it would be a good idea for you to temper your confidence a bit.
Not every software developer works for FAANG and does web dev.

[buoyant seal]

🤷‍♂️ my words aren't only main. degree is only a way to make your footstep into the work. After you already have work experience, it is not very valuable to get more of degree (assuming you already have at least bachelor's degree opening all doors)

[white relic]

... for people doing web dev.

[buoyant seal]

i think it is true for all people doing software development
obviously data scientists are exception, but they aren't kind of software developers in the first place.

[white relic]

then you think wrongly.

[buoyant seal]

provide example in which situation it is a wrong statement then

provide example when software developer, with bachelor degree and 3 years of work experience, can benefit more from getting master's degree than continuing to work

[white relic]

nobody quits their job for 2 years just to get a master's degree.

[near ocean]

A masters isnt 3 years and most employers would count it as work experience from what i've seen

[white relic]

I mean, ok, some people probably do, but it's not the usual path.

Many companies have educational assistance and may even bump your pay after you get a master's.

You are the only one assuming that getting an MS means you quit working

[near ocean]

And obviously for webdev a masters wont do much but if you wanna work in other industries then it surely would help

[buoyant seal]

all right. lets asume person does not quit working, and in parallel gets master's degree after 3 years of work experience?
Do you think it has a value when person already learns a lot from his work, + studies company internal stuff + able to educate himself on its own?
Person is already proved to be able to learn on his own, and become already valuable worker and becomes steadily more valuable on its own...

What is the point of getting even in parallel master's degree, if it will harm worker gaining experience, learning stuff at his work place and other resources?
What will worker gain from master's degree once he is already having bachelor's degree + 3 years of work experience?

[near ocean]

Nobody has even mentioned what the masters is in...
What if its in Data Science? Finance? Whatever flavour AI is in?

[buoyant seal]

may be in some countries master's degree can bring value in this sitatuion, but in my origin country, master's degree is heavily dissatached from real work useful stuff.

[white relic]

why would getting a master's degree prevent someone from learning at work?

[buoyant seal]

because getting master's degree takes time? how much hours per week will be conumed by it, 20-40?
regular person works full time 40 hours per week + time to relax at least a bit + potentially road time... without degree person has time for additional more through education during work and free time, with degree, certainly time will be not left

[near ocean]

Also, if the masters is not related to work stuff wouldnt it mean they learn more than if it was? You learn work related stuff at work already

There are part time degrees fyi

[white relic]

if you don't want to get a master's degree, you don't have to.
But it will open up more opportunities and doing it while working is something many people do. It's not some unachievable thing

[buoyant seal]

which industry except data science

[white relic]

there are more industries than web dev and data science

[near ocean]

Finance? Biotech? Robotics?

[buoyant seal]

ergh. i already received master's degree, just not finding it pretty much useful. it had CS program, but during self studies i discovered i learn magnitudes more in depth same material

[near ocean]

If you didnt find it useful it doesnt mean others wont

[white relic]

Aerospace/defense? semiconductors? logistics? healthcare? ...

[buoyant seal]

point taken @white relic

[white relic]

every industry employs software developers

[near ocean]

Its also entirely feasible to do a degree while working, even full time
Theres reports of people working 2 or 3 full time jobs
I've even seen it personally through my own degree, we had people continue their work during it

There was this kid in my class that took a train to london 2x a week to do his fuckin quant job and then come back for class

[white relic]

I've known many. I'm planning to start this year. It's been >10 years since I was in school and waiting this long to get an MS hasn't been the best thing for my career.

[buoyant seal]

Considering statistics regrading software engineers with degrees
And considering how unlikely for a person to learn two so different specializations (CS + non CS path), as it takes person affinities for very different stuff
And considering cost for getting multiple degree

Your examples are pretty much unique situations for a very unique people.

It is way more reliable path with least resistance to receive just one degree and becoming specialist in it

So, u are providing very unusual rare path solutions i think
While I was providing exactly broad used solution with least resistance

[near ocean]

What statistics are you referring to?

SO survey suggests that masters degrees arent that rare

[sleek egret]

what are those %'s?

[near ocean]

% of respondents

Total is at the top
Here is full survey https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#section-education-educational-attainment

The survey is also pretty webdev heavy, most of the respondents say they use web technologies

[true harness]

filter to professionals

[near ocean]

Professionals are up from 21 to 23.5%

A fifth of professional respondents having MScs is hardly a "rare" or "unusual" path

[sleek egret]

it is rarer and more unusual than just a bachelor's though

[near ocean]

Its the second most common category

What classifies something as rare if this is rare? Anything thats not the most common?

[sleek egret]

yes, so rarer than the most common

I don't know if I'd say #2 is rare, but it is rarer 🙂

[near ocean]

Yea and lebron james is shorter than yiannis ante but he's not "short"

[sleek egret]

indeed. I would agree with that.

there are people shorter than ante who one could characterize as "short" though

[near ocean]

If 1/5 of professionals have mscs then theyre not "unique unusual" people

Unless the definition of unique changed while i wasnt looking

[sleek egret]

I would say that anything more than 1 is not unique

[near ocean]

So to summarize, a masters would be a good choice for our friend up there asking
It would help with his visa claim and make him more appealing

[inner wren]

Hey @atomic nest!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.js, .html). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[devout zodiac]

hi

[covert vector]

Hello where can I prepare for interview type questions or practice my problem solving skills and algorithms?

[spark cobalt]

Immigrants are significantly more likely to carry Masters/PhDs than natives.

Yeah they're a huge thing for immigrants.

[spark cobalt]

I suggest reading Grokking and Elements of the Programming Interview and practice in a more syntactically simple/reads-as-English language such as Python, then practicing what you've learned there with websites like Leetcode (to get guidance on what questions to do, you can use Blind 75, Neetcode.io has some other lists as well)

Fuck English

[woven citrus]

Hello, can learning djgango/flask is enough to land me in wbdev or learn with the Odin proj and do their traditional stacks like node js/ ruby rails? Is it really nodejs/ror or bust like what my friend says? Or Django is enough? They seem t like it

[white relic]

there's a lot of questions in that question

[near ocean]

Its not node/ROR or bust but the odin project walks you through the entire stack and offers bigger projects
Its a good course

[spark cobalt]

Is your goals to be a backend dev? Fullstack? Frontend?

[near ocean]

Besides, node, ruby and python look alike, you can move from one to the other relatively painlessly

[spark cobalt]

Go is getting to be pretty popular as well, maybe worth to investigate that as well.

[woven citrus]

Frontend I guess? I like following guidelines like material3 and Mica in the near future

[spark cobalt]

Django/Flask are more backend technologies.

You might wanna just start off with learning rudimentary HTML/CSS/JS/TS, and then moving forward to frameworks such as React/Vue/Angular.

[white relic]

I will add that friends who have similar experiences to you are an unreliable source of advice about the world at large

[woven citrus]

True, they like to gatekeep. I should stay away from them. @white relic thanks wilder @spark cobalt if that's the case, I think I'll just follow top until it reaches nodejs? I think that's just fine right?

[covert vector]

Ah ok thanks for your help!

[spark cobalt]

If your focus is strictly frontend, then sure. But going into MERN isn't exactly a huge jump either and can expand the range of jobs you can be able to do well in.

[near ocean]

I would personally pick the ruby route but im already familiar with js and node, and ruby looks cool af

[spark cobalt]

I don't really know the Ruby industry too well. Might wanna just look into your local job market and see what's in demand.

All I know is in the US at least, Go is getting pretty popular for this use case.

[woven citrus]

Thanks for the honest input y'all

I'ma scrape our local jobs soon. I'm guessing it's gonna be js tops than ror

[spark cobalt]

It's cheaper that's for sure.

[near ocean]

JS is most probably going to be on top for webdev positions yes

[spark cobalt]

[near ocean]

But JS is the only actual frontend tech, not really fair to compare to others

[sleek egret]

js can be used on the backend too

[spark cobalt]

Yep.

[neon crag]

I'm new into web dev and wants to know more about it ... Can i start learning react to start of my web dev career ?

I know basics of html,css

[spark cobalt]

Here's a few learning paths for frontend web dev:
https://www.reactiflux.com/learning
https://roadmap.sh/frontend

For learning React, the beta React docs is probably the best place to start: https://beta.reactjs.org/

[covert vector]

My main worry for interview practice is I won’t even get a chance to do an interview cuz I don’t have any degree

I have 0 degree just self taught myself python

While I am in college currently i ain’t getting any degree for another 2 years and the program I’m in does 0 programming classes I just do science and math that’s it so it’s pretty ass. I can’t do jack shit with my college degree I’ll have to go to university to do shit. Which company will offer an interview to somebody like me 😂

At this rate I’ll be working in a retail store all my life

[spark cobalt]

What degree are you in college for?

[covert vector]

It’s basically pure and applied sciences so physics chem and math

It’s more of a academic career path

It’s pure math pure physics pure chem

[neon crag]

I think building some projects and having them in your portfolio can help you land in better firms

[covert vector]

I don’t have much time to code the program I’m in is pretty hard and requires lots of work plus I have a job where I work in a retail store to pay some shit so I have no time

[near ocean]

A STEM degree should not put you at a disadvantage

[spark cobalt]

Cross niches are pretty powerful. Might want to investigate how you can leverage your physics/chem/math background on top of your programming knowledge to get a job.

[covert vector]

It’s not a great background it’s entry level physics 😂

I haven’t even done calc 3 yet im still at cal 2 and im doing waves and modern physics

It’s my first year of college

I don’t think I have enough physics knowledge lol or math for the matter

It’s baby math for the average stem student hahaha

[spark cobalt]

This sounds incredibly illogical.

[covert vector]

I don’t think I can get a job until I hit university

[spark cobalt]

Investigate into getting internships by building up your portfolio and using whatever career fairs/college connects you can to land one. You likely won't land a full time position while still being a full time student (either the college forbades it or the company won't allow it, typically both.)

[covert vector]

my portfolio is ass. 8 months workin as a store clerk

[near ocean]

Its your first year my guy, why are you so stressed so early

[covert vector]

because

[spark cobalt]

Programming portfolio* In terms of projects, open source contributions, etc.

[covert vector]

i want to make money

and i have no money im broke my job doesent even pay enough to rent an appartment

[spark cobalt]

College is an investment in making more money after you finish it, generally not during it. Might wanna see how you can at least move upwards in your current job, or leverage your current job to get higher paying retail/restaurant/tutoring/etc. work.

[delicate bane]

youll have to put in the work and make progress towards your goals. it wont be easy nor will it be immediate.

[covert vector]

true its impossible to move upwards in my current job the only position i can get is a supervisor in the store and that calls for much more hours of work which is impossible for me

[spark cobalt]

Or look into how you can get financial assistance so you can have the time to actually build up your programming portfolio. It takes time to build up the skills and to actually create an impressive portfolio.

[delicate bane]

thats not the answer people want to hear but thats the "eat-your-vegetables" answer

[covert vector]

ye i know im young as well im still not 20 yet

so no way im getting any job hahahaha

[spark cobalt]

Age isn't really the issue. You'll get a job no matter what age you're at if you manage to convince someone that you are worth their money. (generally)

[covert vector]

true i need to work at my programming skills more

i think im just gonna grind leetcode i heard its good

[spark cobalt]

Sounds like you just need time. Maybe ask if your parents can help support your rent, or if your parents are local can move back in with them, those sorts of things

[covert vector]

but it costs money which is a downside the leetcode

[spark cobalt]

Leetcode is free. But I'd also just say in general you shouldn't focus Leetcode this early if you're just in the basics of programming overall.

[white relic]

A pure science undergrad usually leads into a more specialized graduate degree, at which point the student has skills that can land a better job in that specialized area.
Is that what you're planning to do? Or are you hoping to get your final job with just a bachelor's in science and self-study programming?

[covert vector]

no my plan is to get into soft eng

[spark cobalt]

Can you not switch majors or at least pursue CS classes to get a minor in it?

[covert vector]

and i need really good grades for that i need to study all the time

im not in university im in college so its pre university

[spark cobalt]

European?

Hm dunno much about this education system, imma bounce

[white relic]

same tbh

[near ocean]

UK?

[sleek egret]

in america, a university is just a group of colleges

as it should be

[near ocean]

In the UK theres also sixth form schools which i believe are called colleges
You do your A levels there

[zealous path]

Our distinction is Sixth Form is pick 4 subjects and specialise in them.
College is more for technical skills like engineering and the like.

[sleek egret]

are your forms related to plato's forms?

[sleek egret]

there are colleges of engineering at most major US universities. also college of arts & science. and college of communications, etc.

[zealous path]

The general route(s) I see are:
Primary
|
High school
| |
Sixth College
| |
Uni Apprenticeship

[sleek egret]

why would engineering not be part of university?

or by "engineering" do you mean things like auto repair? in the US engineering requires some pretty advanced maths.

[zealous path]

Yeah, college-apprenticeship would be more for manual labour works like car engineer, stone mason…

[white relic]

I have heard that the UK calls everything engineering so that might be a good guess (US here)

"car engineer" just sounds comical to American ears 😄

[zealous path]

https://www.capel.ac.uk/news/college-vs-sixth-form/

I love how it really doesn’t tell you much…

[atomic frost]

Is chatgpt helping people with python projects?

[graceful mason]

in a career sense? probably not
I'd be surprised if any companies would waste money on chatGPT

[sleek egret]

can you be nostalgic for things you never experienced?

[atomic frost]

Sounds like you haven’t used it th then

[pine sleet]

The common consensus here is that ChatGPT is terrible at writing code

In fact, I had an instance yesterday where ChatGPT recommended someone to do something that was blatantly wrong

[near ocean]

Are you a working professional?

[sleek egret]

ChatGPT is a demo app by OpenAI to promote their AI products (models)

[vapid jay]

I just have a question, I am going to school to become a computer scientist, and this is a language i both need to take for my path and sort of want to learn. I wanted to know if this language could be used for game design?

Sorry if this is the wrong place to put this, it's just game development has been a goal of mine for a long time and I wanted to maybe see about doing it as a job.

[peak halo]

C++ for Unreal and C# for Unity

[vapid jay]

Is this at least a good language to start with?

[peak halo]

"this" being Python? sure.

[vapid jay]

Python yeah

[inner wren]

Hey @white merlin!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[covert vector]

Nah Canadian system

Why not lol

[rain ore]

can someone assist me in choosing my courses for grade 11? I dont have anyone for mentorship i feel like im gonna screw myself over 😥

[covert vector]

Look I’ve been doing python on and off for a few years now. I know all the basics. The more advanced stuff I’m not very familiar but it won’t take long to learn. And refreshing my memory on the basic probably will take an hour at least so I think that something like leetcode could help me brush up the skills by doing the easy problems and then I can continue doing that and doing projects. I’ve built a calculator and I was gonna do a snake game but I had no time. School is a lot of work I barely have time to code

[smoky quest]

why do you care about leetcode if you are still in school?

[covert vector]

Not much I’ve done simple stuff I was more into web development

[covert vector]

Because I want to get ahead

[smoky quest]

there are better ways to get ahead

[covert vector]

Like what

[smoky quest]

read books, practice the exercises from the books and make projects

[covert vector]

I have enough books

[smoky quest]

then read them, practice the exercises from your books and make projects

[covert vector]

Hahahahaha I have like 20 python/ programming books

I bought so many I was so into it back in the day I started coding at 13 with python

Like 4 around they were pretty long. I read Matt Harrison’s book, rob miles, and I also read automate the boring stuff

And then I started serious python by danjou

[smoky quest]

have you done the exercises and some projects?
After that, I would expect projects far more complex than a calculator

[covert vector]

I did all of them in Matt Harrison’s book a few in rob miles

Matt Harrison’s had more problem solving type problems

18

Like I said I’ve been doing python on and off. I started at like 13 for a summer, then stopped for a year then I started again then stopped then started

My cousin was into coding he got me into it but I fell off cuz I didn’t rlly understand it fully back then nor did I have much time I was playing sports and shit lol

I haven’t done python in like a year now hahahahahahah

I did web dev for like a few months that’s it that’s all

I don’t know 😂 lol I heard about it my friend told me about it

[deft herald]

You should look into contributing to open source projects

That will give you some experience in some auxiliary-to-programming concepts such as version control, code review, etc

[covert vector]

In my opinion the only reason for me to be doing it is to solve problems I like to solve problems

Like u know when they give you for example, an integral to solve. It’s fun because u try a bunch of things: integration by parts, trig sub, u sub, partial fractions and see which one works and that’s what I like about problem solving and also the rapture of solving a problem

[inner wren]

Hey @slate zodiac!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[covert vector]

ah ok thanks

so usaco is the best one?

ah so ill see neetcode

ah it costs $

ah ok

so 150 problems

thats a lot of problems hahaha

@modern ore which one would u recommend out of all the ones u mentioned

so cses, neetcode 150, and usaco

@neat shadow which one would you recommend

i delete?

ok 🤣 haha

so neetcode 150 is from leetcode

ah ok. i will try the usaco ones as well just the website is old

ok, like i said i just want to solve problems for fun and just code for fun cuz it is fun and see what happens haha in the end if you arent having fun there is no point in doing it

[spark cobalt]

He's some YouTuber that does Leetcode playthroughs. He made his own list of 150 problems which is on his website neetcode.io

[smoky quest]

you may also be interested in codingame.com then

[covert vector]

ah ok

ill check it out i also saw codewars which i read was ok but ill check out codingame

[sharp plover]

hey guys, i just started computer engineer but what i saw that is a lot of ramifications that i can choose but i dont know any of them. the only one that i started studying is data science but some told me that this job isnt hot. does anyone knows about data science job request or another thing to study/know?

[deft herald]

I wouldn't go based off of one guy's anecdotal evidence

[deft herald]

data science is a very valuable skill IMO

[vapid jay]

Can someone help me this keeps popping up after i close it but idk what it means

[sharp plover]

I started learning about machine learning, but this is the only "ramifications" about the computer engineer that i know. Idk another's jobs that i can search for

[deft herald]

https://tenor.com/view/princess-bride-you-keep-using-that-word-i-do-not-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means-gif-9201569

[sharp plover]

I was thinking about IA things and something that use models, like blender but idk where it works

[deft herald]

When you say "just started computer engineer", do you mean you started a degree in computer engineering?

[sharp plover]

Yes, a degree

[deft herald]

Gotcha. And are you just looking for advice in what to specialize in or what? What electives to take?

[sharp plover]

An advice to what im need to specialize

[smoky quest]

How do we know what you need to specialize? There are way too many available possibilities to list.
There is no easy nor single answer to deciding your future

[deft herald]

In my opinion, 90% of it comes down to "what interests you"? The job market will not be where it is now in 4-5 years

[sharp plover]

I mean, if u already work can u tell me a little about it?

[deft herald]

I can tell you about 2 specific hardware industries 😄

[sharp plover]

Im all ears

[deft herald]

What do you want to know?

[smoky quest]

you may want to look at jobs on linkedin or indeed to see the breadth of jobs.
You could also look into the jobs the alumni of your school have been into

[deft herald]

But like recursive_error said, I sure didn't specilize

[sharp plover]

What you do working in a hardware industry? You are a programmer?

[deft herald]

Yes. I work for Qualcomm on 5G modem

lots of software needed to make modems

My degree was in Electrical Engineering, but i ended up being more software focused

[sharp plover]

got it
Do you know what job works with (idk the right term in eng) but construct modeling characters/object, with blender for example?

[spark cobalt]

That would be more design jobs in like gaming/animation studios.

[smoky quest]

yeah, tooling, engine, etc.

[deft herald]

that sounds more creative than engineering too, unless you work on the software driving all of that

[smoky quest]

You don't make the characters. You make the software that help other people build their characters

Making the characters would just be using the tools and modelers, and that's more of an art thing than engineering

[sharp plover]

Hmmmm

Im in doubt about study about IA things (but idk which type cuz idk a lot about it) and modeling

[smoky quest]

what do you mean by IA?

[deft herald]

AI i think

[sharp plover]

Sorry, it's AI in eng I always get confused

[smoky quest]

👍

[spark cobalt]

Interesting, never knew these roles existed. Always thought people who did 3D modelling and whatnot work directly with Blender.

Or, I guess I didn't know you could create like what extensions is to Chrome for Blender.

[smoky quest]

Look into "asset pipeline" and GDC talks. They cover a lot of these things (plus I know a few folks in the industry).

There are also some cool stories related to plugins developed for LOTR to simulate crowds. So there can be an intersection of art and engineering

[spark cobalt]

That's a good point, I do recall a bit of scripting when I was working with Blender stuff. Interesting, never thought about it at this scale, thanks.

[deft herald]

Yeah i've always thought those crossovers were cool

[smoky quest]

indeed! They don't pay as much as ads though 😉

[sharp plover]

You know if there's is a "market"/job to work with body tracking?

[spark cobalt]

What is ads? Like advertismenets?

[smoky quest]

disable ublock and you will see.
Yes, advertisement

[spark cobalt]

Oh ok I thought it meant something else for a second