career-advice

[spark cobalt]

That was lower rates than me, and I don't have any degree at all, just applied right after high school.

[near remnant]

I'll have a Ruby Engineer interview next week and I have zero exp with Ruby, I worked with Python. Why do they still invite me?

[tiny shore]

layoffs suck, theres been so many happening in my company and I'm just waiting for the day I'm next. You know how you combat that? be a bad engineer and don't document anything 🤣

[spark cobalt]

Because knowing the language isn't the only aspect of the role. They're also valuing your past experience in a similar role.

[near remnant]

I've talked to a friend of mine who works at Amazon and he told me that I should feel happy because I will get two months of salary for no work and I can apply for many jobs, and maybe get a better paying job down the road.

[vapid jay]

probably to see if you can prove if you have the programming know-how because the syntax can be learned quicker than training the logic/problem-solving

[near remnant]

Oh I see, probably. I will try my best tho even tho it's not my "language".

[tiny shore]

severance packages are awesome, but they only happen if it's a certain percentage of the company because they're forced to

[spark cobalt]

And it might not even come in a timely manner. Some people at Twitter have yet to get their severance pakcage apparently....

[near remnant]

So, I worked for 6 months at this company as a python backend dev, gained good experience and knowledge but haven't worked on side-projects at all. So, I'm trying to create 1-2 nice projects since I have plenty of time thanks to the lay off. kekw

[tiny shore]

did you get a sev package

[vapid jay]

maybe instead of doing a whole project just add to something being developed already

[near remnant]

yeah, good idea. i started applying to jobs last Tuesday and I got 2 interview invites already, not too bad but honestly...I'm not so optimistic, we'll see. If I can get another job before March, I'll be very happy.

[spark cobalt]

Good stuff! Lots of people are struggling to get interviews at all. Great that you passed this first barrier.

[tiny shore]

the job market is a bit weird right now with all these layoffs, but lots of new jobs getting posted since it's Q1

[near remnant]

Yeah, thanks guys, I'll try to remain optimistic.

[tiny shore]

in dec the job market is quieter

[white relic]

IMO the recent layoffs got a disproportionate amount of press because of a couple major companies.

[dreamy shadow]

Also market bad atm

[tiny shore]

when my company laid off a ton of people no one got the story cuz we arent FAANG lol. but our glassdoor reviews are pretty bad lately

[quartz moss]

i got a job offer working with NVR servers, is that a good way to get a networking/security career going?

[tiny shore]

whats the job title

[quartz moss]

It was just casually offered in person, idk what it would be

[tiny shore]

Something like this ?

NVR Server Production Technician
POSTED ON 3/2/2022
CLOSED ON 4/28/2022
Digital Watchdog Hired Organization Address Cerritos, CA Full Time
Job Posting for NVR Server Production Technician at Digital Watchdog
A. JOB POSITION

NVR Server Production Technician

B. JOB DESCRIPTION

1. Assemble NVR Servers and NAS based on incoming orders
2. Test components and create report
3. Troubleshoot, diagnose and repair products returned due to the multiple issues
4. Create and edit technical document, video and instructions
5. Assist Tech Support snd RMA with troubleshooting the issues at remote site.
6. Manage inventory (production stocks, spare parts, test system, tools)
7. Report to Operation Director and Technical Director

C. EXPERIECES REQUIRED

1. Min 3 years experience with server and PC assembly in manufacturing environment or as integrator(conse
2. Min 3 years of troubleshooting Windows/Linux based servers and computers.
3. Min 3 years of installation and troubleshooting Ubuntu or Debian variations of Linux (Ubuntu 16.04 and up)
4. Min 3 years of installation and troubleshooting Windows OS (Windows 7 and up, Windows Server 2012 and up)
5. Min 3 years of installing and troubleshooting system with multiple RAID configurtion.
6. Able to lift 40 to 60 pound system.

Job Type: Full-time

Job Type: Full-time

Pay: From $22.00 per hour

Benefits:

401(k)

[digital marten]

Is there many coding jobs for someone under 18

[white relic]

that's a curiously specific guess, and in technical violation of rules 6 and 9

[tiny shore]

uhhhhh no

Rule 6
Do not post unapproved advertising.

Rule 9
Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[tiny shore]

not at all, I'm not advertising anything (that job is inactive) & I'm not offering work, because again, that job doesn't even exist right now lol

[sleek egret]

no, there are not many

[white relic]

"oh, I was only pretending to break the rules" isn't a great defense

[vapid jay]

@quartz moss definitely need more information

[tiny shore]

you're not making any sense

[white relic]

recruitment isn't allowed here. you posted a job listing.

[vapid jay]

@trenj obviously he was giving an example

[tiny shore]

you are ignoring what I'm saying

[tiny shore]

so why should I even bother at this point. Go ask a mod or something

[white relic]

I'm not ignoring it, it's just not relevant.

[tiny shore]

You are ignoring it, yet you say you are not. You are again not making much sense

I'm going to assume you're a troll or something

[white relic]

just don't post another job opening

[tiny shore]

This is for career discussion, if you aren't here for that, kindly go somewhere else

[quartz moss]

i was just told he was looking for someone who was interested in learning about the NVR software(smart pss, IVMS, etc), servers and monitoring center facilities.

[tiny shore]

do you mind sharing what type of role you are in now? because a tech job is better than no tech job from my perspective, like if you work at target or something maybe consider that instead

[quartz moss]

I'm just in uni

[tiny shore]

have you considered internships targeted at exactly what you're interested in?

[white relic]

so, it's not really an offer, more like an invitation to apply?

[tiny shore]

this specific role is more in the Sys Admin/Server support realm

[quartz moss]

it was made very clear that they wanted me specifically

[spark cobalt]

Nothing is official if it isn't written in paper.

[vapid jay]

i agree with ytho, the job doesnt seem in the realm of cybersecurity though, its more of an IT function with security cameras

[spark cobalt]

Lots of managerial schemes that can be going on. Buddying up with you early on can be a sign of that (not that they don't want you, but there is that secondary motive that may influence how they behave with you.)

Hence, before anything is put on paper, you shouldn't treat it as something binding.

[quartz moss]

bro it's my little town's security company ran by my highschool teacher not some scheming dark corpo

[spark cobalt]

Have seen it first hand where a manager wanted to use my "desperation" to undercut me by 20k. Tried to make me think we were friends, but my dad caught on thankfully and told me to reject them.

[white relic]

small companies can have really brutal internal politics.

[spark cobalt]

This one was ran by a small tech company. Manager used to be at MS, and my guess was he never made it to a lead position and so now that he is one, he wanted someone to be his bitch.

Lots of psychological games...

[quartz moss]

I don't even need the money I just want relevant experience

[vapid jay]

@quartz moss heres a link that might help you decide for yourself, its a certification roadmap with all of the sectors of cybersecurity

[spark cobalt]

You missed the point. But yeah, given the situation it doesn't sound like you're guaranteed an internship, hence why we're saying having it in writing is crucial.

[vapid jay]

https://pauljerimy.com/security-certification-roadmap/

[spark cobalt]

Companies can be interested in multiple people.

[quartz moss]

thanks

[tiny shore]

security architects are in high demand and paid really well right now most are 81k - 220k

[vapid jay]

yeah, theres another chart on his page with average salaries for each job title, some of them need python knowledge,

[sleek egret]

inconceivable!

[sleek egret]

do you think people who have never architected any security can get those jobs?

[buoyant seal]

this picture made me realising i don't want to move ever into security roles 😆

My brain has a limit how much it can remember, keep up to date and not being forgotten, even considering all free time dedicated to learning and upkeeping already chosen fields of knowledge
This security clearly looks it will not fit, even if I wished to learn

[vapid jay]

yeah, its alot. its really about finding something you like doing I suppose

[stable elbow]

Asking salary range in interview. Y/N/doesn't matter? Thoughts?

[smoky quest]

it's fine as long as it's tactful

[stable elbow]

If it's not answered, it will probably be my very last question

Soooo it's never about the money until it is. How much are you looking to compensate for this position <- prob just gonna recite that word for word

[smoky quest]

Not being answered could be a valid reaction depending on how it's asked and when it's asked

[stable elbow]

These are big X000 employee companies, so I would hope they wouldn't go that route

[smoky quest]

I mean, a lot of it depends on how well you do in interviews 😉

Plus it sends the wrong signal

[stable elbow]

I'm gonna sell the shit out of myself. They will love me...OR ELSe

[smoky quest]

Starting by asking the salary is not the best way to sell the shit out of yourself

[stable elbow]

Oh for sure. I have a list of stuff I have ready to be asked. Salary will literally be at the end and if there is time

[gilded valley]

What do you mean an interview? Very often people carrying out technical interviews or cultural interviews won't be involved in that side of things and will just be providing input and feedback on you. You should ask the person who is your point of contact the runs through the process.

Often the easiest way is to do this in your first call with the recruiter/hiring manager - "hey, neither of us wants to waste each others time, could you give me an idea of the salary range to make sure we're in the same ballpark?"

[stable elbow]

I stalked all my interviewers. They all include the hr person, team leads and in some cases directors.

I could also email the hr person, but all my interviews are literally stacked over the next couple days

[gilded valley]

And once you know their range, you should wait until as late as possible in the process to negotiate

[stable elbow]

Hopefully I can get multiple offers(hopefully I get at least one offer) so I can negotiate

[gilded valley]

Like all communication, context is the key thing.

[nimble jackal]

I’ve got a lot of spare time on my hands, and I’d like to use it to make some money. I’ve seen a few 16y/os around dpy having a job already, however it’s related to programming, e.g. web dev. How would you find one as a minor, though above 16?

[gilded valley]

I'm not sure what you're asking? Is it how to make money programming as a 17yo?

[nimble jackal]

Sure, but not quite the odd job on Fiverr, something more reliable

[gilded valley]

Apply to supermarkets, fast food places, data entry roles - generic low level retail type roles

[smoky quest]

There isn't much beyond that than student/teen's jobs

[gilded valley]

being a lifeguard is pretty good money and you can do that at 17 in a lot of places

[smoky quest]

That said, if you aren't specifically in need of money, you would have a higher ROI making sure you have good grades for a CS degree and working on fun projects

[gilded valley]

higher ROI making sure you have good grades for a CS degree

Having had retail experience, or literally just experience working with adults, can be pretty valuable for your first job or for university. Definitely don't compromise grades for it though

(I got my first internship by talking about delivering pizza)

[smoky quest]

oh yes. I didn't mean to say there is no return on that

[spark cobalt]

If you want to make money, there's a lot of communities (particularly gaming ones) that have a huge demand for web services for utilities, crowdsourced information, resource management, etc.

It gets to the point where websites like this: https://afkit.faint.fun/ (which let's be honest looks like shit) has 20k+ MAU. Slap on a few ads, put on a few Patreon buttons and you get money rolling in (especially if you're in a Gacha community of whales, from anecdotal experience people are very happy to donate, just people are not willing to do the effort.)

[nimble jackal]

Understood, I’m not taking math so grades are by far more important for me lol.

[gilded valley]

what country are you in?

[spark cobalt]

This way, not only do you have an amazing project for your future (projects with MAU are incredibly rare!), but you're able to make money, get a userbase where their critique can help you grow as a developer, grow the application itself, etc.

[nimble jackal]

Brunei

[nimble jackal]

Ah, this sounds interesting. Will definitely look around those communities.

[gilded valley]

Brunei is probably substantially different enough from Europe/the US that a fair chunk of advice from Europeans or Americans isn't totally relevant to you

[spark cobalt]

Might not be a lot of money, but also things like Poketwo was built by a sophomore in high school and he was able to make 6 figures of revenue from it (this is obviously a more extreme case though.) Creator of it is also in this server 👀

[nimble jackal]

Yeah I’ve seen some of the stuff Oliver has made, that dude has some serious talent and skill.

[spark cobalt]

In terms of actually marketing to these communities, often one Reddit post and you're set. Simple tools can revolutionize how an entire gaming community operates and communicates with each other, prompting more and more to use your service regularly.

But yeah, just a thought. Very very easy to engineer MAU, even if it's revered as something only "top websites can achieve," people are really just focusing on building the wrong things.

Market analysis

[nimble jackal]

Sorry, what are gacha communities, and would you happen to have any invites you could send my way lmao.

[spark cobalt]

Really any gaming community. Gacha communities (communities for gacha games like Genshin Impact, etc.) I'm just the most familiar with the market and the psychology behind the gacha community which is why I mention it

What about gaming communities you're in now?

• Is there a way you can have technology to help with communicating things so people don't have to consistently open up their game to ss?
• Is there some sort of tool or calculator that people may have a need for?

There's all sorts of things that can be helpful:

• There's that Valorant game tracker, that gives players ability to know information about other teammates that's typically hidden in game (I don't know Valorant, but I think this is what it does.)
• The website I sent before takes the inputted data about a person's heroes, and then when you want to share your data in Discord, there's a bot that puts out this inputted data in a really nice format, offers all sorts of filters, etc. But helps players to send things about their account without ever having to open up their game.

Works with all sorts of games, but just needs analysis of what players need and want. Competition will make people want to use resources around them, especially if those resources are free 🙂

Have seen a website that's beyond confusing, overengineered UI as shit, honestly the website is useless what it provided wasn't needed by anyone. But that still amassed 1k MAU, simply because people fucking think it would actually help them

If you're looking for games specifically, Tower of Fantasy is in desperate need for a resource management system. Surprised that community hasn't made anything yet, despite having the need to open game to take any sort of ss is an abnormally common greivance. But alas...

Ugh it's always the Ivy League kids that reject my connection requests on LinkedIn despite us having like 100 mutual connections. Mfs on their high horse

looked at my profile
"nah"

these mfs

[dreamy torrent]

i’m ivy league

[sleek egret]

why?

[dreamy torrent]

cos i’m better than everyone who’s not

[sleek egret]

but you're not better than the 100's of thousands who are?

[dreamy torrent]

i’m kidding i don’t go to an ivy league school

[sleek egret]

why?

[dreamy torrent]

bruh wym why

[sleek egret]

exactly

[dreamy torrent]

https://giphy.com/gifs/confused-despicable-me-minions-XQvhpuryrPGnK

[spark cobalt]

[dreamy torrent]

you love this channel huh

[spark cobalt]

Sometimes

[dreamy torrent]

so when u gonna give me that job

[spark cobalt]

Me confused

Idk if offering referrals goes against rules here. Asked Modmail a couple days ago but got no response.

Maybe they're deliberating

[dreamy torrent]

well if it’s not i’m an expert in python 2 and HTML 2 😎💀

[buoyant seal]

what deepest corners of internet still use html 2. Probably government related, or US banking system related

[dreamy torrent]

my new startup

[buoyant seal]

Startup should be in AWS EKS, serverless architecture with Kubernetes, Argo CD, Pulumi, Rust, Golang and etc xD than more bleeding edge tech then better. Oh, and many Microservices! And CockroachDB with Apache Cassandra with Kafka xD

[dreamy torrent]

no html 2 with a python 2 backend running on a raspberry pi 2 model B *

[white relic]

w e b s c a l e

[dreamy torrent]

now your thinking

[dreamy torrent]

should i use html 3

[buoyant seal]

Go straight to XHTML 😅

[dreamy torrent]

smart smart 🧠

[dreamy torrent]

fr tho u do devops? howd you get into that field. do you like it more than being a swe

[summer roost]

It's still very common at large companies that have been investing in Python for a long time. Up until around 2015 it wasn't clear that Python 3 was going to win, and companies with large, stable Python code bases have been slow to upgrade them since then.

[buoyant seal]

Worked in startup as backend Dev responsible for Deployment and infrastructure too. Learned in the process docker/ansible/Terraform/Kubernetes while abusing my position to apply bleeding edge for practice.
Next job got hired into DevOps team because they were seeking backend guys with DevOps expertise into DevOps team because it is true DevOps.

I like to automate stuff. DevOps related stuff makes better development through automation of development processes. I like to make comfortable Dev env for me and other people.
Infrastructure access gives me tools to monitoring/logging systems, experimenting in sandboxes of cloud infra, constant learning. As fresh field it is free to discover its best practices (in comparison to software engineering which has like everything discovered dozens years ago)
In general it is enjoyful to experiment with infra I guess.

[buoyant seal]

Tbh, I don't really even see where backend ends to me and where starts DevOps. To me they work together, while some people are blind to one of parts. Web app cant be whole without its infrastructure as a code and ensured performance, high availability, reliability, observability and other stuff. And just having nice automated CI CD testing, automated processes of Dev workflows with tuned tools like Github.
Automation to development 😄

[buoyant seal]

I try to make effort in both SWE and DevOps at the same time, with keeping SWE learning to full first and seeing SWE approach first. DevOps side to my work, that I also consider next maintenance moments of product too, or getting needed business stuff

Inevitably at the moment I am getting more DevOps tasks, although I have a choice and getting more pure SWE tasks if wishing. Or during DevOps tasks i need to write SWE stuff. Line is very blurred here and often enough tasks is SWE and DevOps at the same time

[dreamy torrent]

Thanks for the info! That's a pretty nice gig you got. I'm about to graduate and the only internship I was able to nab was a QA Engineering & Automation internship. I worked pretty close with the actual devs, it seemed better than what I was doing but also seemed pretty stressful?, 3/4ths of their assignments were bug fixing which doesn't sound super great lol. At the same time it could have been the company culture, I mean they didnt unit test or anything, they used me as the unit tester xd

but the devops team i had seemed to always be doing interesting tasks without the harassment upper middle management

[spark cobalt]

Can you send your roadmap again?

[buoyant seal]

DevOps can be very stressful too. If working as SRE responsible for maintenance and repairing during breakings. Irregular working schedule with availability all the time.
I stay away from it

And get DevOps at more backend/SWE side. Backend infra/CI CD development

[buoyant seal]

https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/blob/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg 😄

[dreamy torrent]

i see, i guess you would be the one on call when something goes wrong on the backend

[buoyant seal]

Or if you broke something during deployment

[buoyant seal]

DevOps people are the ones who can delete database if aren't careful xD and other important data

[true harness]

wouldn't devops be the people deploying?

[dreamy torrent]

scary lol

[buoyant seal]

Exactly they are. Automated to one action to confirm... But mistakes still happen with not enough carefully read Terraform deployment plans..

.. that is why nice to make sure u can quickly rollback to previous Deployment, and just having backups (assuming u checked and knowing and tried how to restore them)

[spark cobalt]

.bm thanks!

[flat anvil]

Click the button to be sent your very own bookmark to [this message](#career-advice message).

[spark cobalt]

Started working on internal CI software at my company and it's been a blast

[spark cobalt]

Where did Java come in

[peak halo]

hell thought you said "from"

[spark cobalt]

[vapid jay]

Should I even bother learning how to program with the rise of ai

[pine sleet]

AI isn't replacing programmers anytime soon

[pulsar drum]

Yes. Someone is gonna have to program those AIs after all 🙂

[peak halo]

We need a pin for this question tbh

[peak halo]

ChatGPT can at best write code that is trivial for a professional developer. ChatGPT operates at the level of a beginner who copies and pastes code from stack overflow.

It's a supremely impressive technological accomplishment. Just not in the ways that people think that it is.

[native lantern]

Somewhere I heard something along the lines of "ChatGPT is like an intern for every subject. It has the knowledge, but you must guide it on how to use it."

[dreamy torrent]

lol yea i think most devs would tell you that chatgtp can only write code that is like very ultra simple

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra7WUfaQNrM

this is actually a funny video it cannot even write a simple audio plugin

[dreamy torrent]

it also states shit as fact, when its not always fact lol

[buoyant seal]

AI will replace software developer only when would be opened AI at the same level of wonder and quality as opening hyperdrive space engine to fly faster than light, chances for which are pretty slim. Until then nothing to worry about ☺️
(May be we will open hyper drive engines within next thousand of years? Questionable if our civilization will survive that long enough though)
(+ If this level of AI will be opened, we need also to survive AI takeover the world)

[near remnant]

do you guys often have pair-programming interviews?

[spark cobalt]

I've done a few for some online interviews.

[near remnant]

I'll have my first pair-programming interview next week. Any advice? I never had this, only take-home or Leetcode online tests.

[solar torrent]

WHERE TO HOST MY DISCORD BOT?
FOR FREE WITHOUT CREDIT CARD OR PHONE NUMBER???

[buoyant seal]

Nowhere 🙂

[near remnant]

The fact that they are going to be watching me for 1,5 hours coding..bruh 💀

[solar torrent]

WHERE TO HOST MY DISCORD BOT?
FOR FREE WITHOUT CREDIT CARD OR PHONE NUMBER???

[spark cobalt]

Just test your IDE beforehand, make sure you can comfortably run your code in a way that doesn't obstruct the process (for example, using the terminal within an IDE.)

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384>

[buoyant seal]

Sounds scary yet fun 😅

[near remnant]

just scary

[buoyant seal]

Wait, it is just interview? That is often all the time

[spark cobalt]

^

[near remnant]

I did many interviews and this is my first pair-programming interview. How to even prepare for that?

[buoyant seal]

It is not pair programming. This definition is taken by another thing. Pair programming is a real another thing

[spark cobalt]

I mean it's the same as whiteboarding lol. Just the online variant in my eyes.

[near remnant]

imposter syndrome just hits hard now, even tho im just a junior i feel like im going to be so bad lmao 💀

[spark cobalt]

I'm sure everyone applying feels that as well lol. You're not alone.

[buoyant seal]

Shrugs. Just code. Prepare your favourite tools, make sure to gather requirements in a good way, think aloud as much as possible, go for programming thorough pseudo coding stuff.
Push for your normal workflow with unit testing if it is your normal wirkflow

Make sure u get access to most favourite comfortable environment. Don't try coding in browser/notepad

[spark cobalt]

Yeah don't feel rushed to code immediately just because you have an IDE in front of your face.

Especially because there isn't some whiteboard you can draw or mess around with, very important to discuss the problem and be on the same page with your interviewer.

[near remnant]

honestly, since its my first interview like this, its a 90% fail, but whatever, i will still take it.

[buoyant seal]

90% fail? you are optimistic 🙂 usually it is 99% fail chance (from formula 1 interview gets passed out of 100)

[near remnant]

I think I'm going to pass this. I just don't have the mindset to sit through 1,5-2 hours coding while people watching me every moment. bro it's like a psychologial terror. 💀 I like leetcode tests and OAs or take-home projects but this...just why?

[buoyant seal]

To ensure you aren't a fraud That u are able to solve on your own and not hired some friend to pass interview instead of you
Plus evaluating other soft/hard metrics during it

[near remnant]

fraud? what? people actually ask their friends to pass their interviews?!

[buoyant seal]

Yup. All the time hearing about it.

[near remnant]

wtf 💀 no, im not fraud mate, i just feel like i'm not ready for this...i'm too junior for this lmao..

[buoyant seal]

People just aim to get few months salary until getting fired 😆

[near remnant]

that's crazy bro, some people are weird

[spark cobalt]

It's incredibly easy to cheat on OAs lol.

[near remnant]

then why do i read and study freaking algos everyday

[spark cobalt]

For your pair programming session 🙂

[near remnant]

out of 10 interviews this is the first with pair programimng

[spark cobalt]

It's typically super easy to tell if someone cheated on an OA, or lie on their resume, or etc.

[hot portal]

hello guys, I'm thinking a lot about becoming a web developer. Started studying python a couple days ago. Do you have any advice? What I should know before I try to get my first job?

[near remnant]

by lying what do you mean? for example: putting AWS on their resume when they never actually used it?

[spark cobalt]

https://roadmap.sh/frontend/
https://roadmap.sh/backend/
https://roadmap.sh/react/

[spark cobalt]

Like copied projects, or things like that. But yeah the same vibe.

[buoyant seal]

Statistics tell today, that 80% of people are filtered by Fizz Buzz 🙂 https://leetcode.com/problems/fizz-buzz/

[near remnant]

I've made a full-stack Flask project which I worked on for 4 months and I put Flask on the Skills section, hope its fine

[spark cobalt]

[near remnant]

sometimes I question myself if I'm really capable of all this. I've had a python backend job but honestly...I'm not sure if I get another one. maybe I should become a worker at Burger King

[buoyant seal]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8787370
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3004471
percentage varies from article to article, but still tremendous

waitingkuo

FizzBuzz: the test helps filter out the 99.5% of programming job candidates

Hacker News · Dec 23, 2014, 9:04 AM

tomx

Ask HN: What % of your job interviewees pass FizzBuzz type questions?

I'm sent 100 resumes a month, then interview about ~10 people. Of those, about 50% can do FizzBuzz style questions. On paper, all of these ~10 people would be qualified to do the work, however (I think) some have become rusty, or focused more on management or other areas.What percentage of your job interview candidates pass FizzBuzz style questi...

Hacker News · Sep 16, 2011, 2:03 PM

[spark cobalt]

That's fucking crazy bruh

[near remnant]

i'm gonna big O notate to Burger King and work there

[spark cobalt]

No reason to push yourself down. The fact you are getting interviews is a huge step that so many people right now are unable to achieve at all.

[unreal ocean]

i just wanna make some pocket money, uni is already expensive and time demanding
can't even find that... with the skills I have, imagine getting full time jobs

[spark cobalt]

Saw someone that applied to couple hundred jobs with 0 responses. He had a Masters of CS at some Ivy league I forgot and an internship at Microsoft

[near remnant]

I get it but I feel so lost. Don't know if I need to make new projects, or focus on leetcode or focus on practicing on pair-programming interviews....

[spark cobalt]

The fact that you are getting responses means employers think there's something you have that other candidates don't. Don't disqualify yourself for something dozens of others are qualifying you for.

[near remnant]

wtf? how is that even possible. i have two econimics degrees, one of them is a master's.

[spark cobalt]

They wouldn't waste 2 hours of their engineer's times for a fucking nobody.

Don't undercut yourself lol. You're doing really great for our current market. Now just need to seal the deal

[near remnant]

thank you.

would I be an idiot if I cancel this 1,5-2 hour pair-programming interview? i just don't feel comfortable at all.

[spark cobalt]

It's very, very valuable experience.

Even if you don't get a job offer, what you will get is experience doing this format of interviews. Which anecdotally was very common for me.

Practicing performing under pressure is a rare opportunity!

[near remnant]

I'll sleep on it and we'll see. But you know, even though I've made some python projects and solved many leetcode problems and also worked as a python dev, I feel like I would fail so hard at this pair-programming interview and then I would feel like an actual imposter. Which is a bad thing to do since it is just an interview...but yeah.

[unreal ocean]

hey wilder, any guidelines for someone with 0 professional experience? I can't even apply to most positions because they wanna see experience

[spark cobalt]

College degree + Compelling projects.

[unreal ocean]

while studying? I'm in prefinal year rn

[spark cobalt]

That is the expectation, yes.

[hot portal]

i'm considering change careers, can anyone tell me how much an entry level make? started studying python 2 weeks ago, I hope to get a job in a couple months

[spark cobalt]

Network:

• Go to local dev meetups
• Utilize career resources/fairs your college offers
• Participate in coding activities: Conferences, Hackathons, etc.
• Call local recruiters
• Expand your LinkedIn network, be able to have a reach so you can get referrals when making posts.

Projects: Compelling projects would be something that shows depths of knowledge within a certain area on display of mature development.

An example of that can be something like this: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/470889390588035082/1064256857339867239/image.png

This is a freshman in college that I'm referring to my company for internships this year.

Frankly, if someone wants to hire a web developer, they want to hire someone that's built websites before, touched on frameworks/technologies used within the industry, utilizing common practices, etc.

[unreal ocean]

well yeah I approached many recruiters, and I get the same answer "we are only offering full-time positions, perhaps try later when you're ready"

[spark cobalt]

People are often happy to give referrals, you simply just have to ask. Just be a good human being and people will gladly help you out.

[near remnant]

Oh I just realized the company is based in US, so I guess this is the reason for the pair-programming. I'm in EU and never had this interview before. @spark cobalt

[spark cobalt]

People sometimes are also open to offer specifically you an intern role if you give them a compelling enough reason to, even if they don't usually do internships.

[unreal ocean]

Oh that surely shows their skills... if not copied from somewhere
many of my mates at college are just copying stuff and putting into their resume

[spark cobalt]

It's not, and that's why I'm referring specifically him to my company. Because he's a good human being and has expressed passion in technologies that we build at my company.

[unreal ocean]

I disagree with them

[spark cobalt]

Have seen like a fuckton of college grad resumes. So many are indistinguishable and well, those are the ones struggling to find a job.

When new grad roles are getting 3-4 digit number of applicants, well, don't be surprised if even you get a perfect OA score (which they'd probably cheat as well) that you don't get a response with those kind of projects

[unreal ocean]

I can see why heh

[spark cobalt]

It's not only expression of skill. But expression of passion. Someone who just manufacture projects for the sake of filling up resume rather than learning new things is something that cna be a red flag.

[unreal ocean]

but that also means I need to word my resume carefully... to show what I actually know
cuz I know i can explain my skills in an interview but that comes after resume screening

[spark cobalt]

And, utilizing online resources and networking comes in really well. Have had my resume reviewed by dozens of people online and in person of all skill levels and YOE.

[unreal ocean]

mhm I saw you in the other server before CS career hub, I got some constructive feedback on my resume there
but that was a few months ago

[spark cobalt]

Trend I'm seeing lately in here and other programming servers when asking for resume review. Typically the projects are, extremely underwhelming.

One person was here with a console log RPG project, something with only if and print statements and another project that was just validating some password or something. Things you'd build within the first 2 weeks of programming.

[unreal ocean]

things that take mere days to make...

[spark cobalt]

Not even days. Several minutes at best

[unreal ocean]

well that

[spark cobalt]

[unreal ocean]

I make a lot of things... but I can't access if they are even presentable

like a website I made last week, has cloud functions and what not
but I end up asking: is it even worth the time?

[spark cobalt]

You should build few, deep, well built and well rounded projects.

If you were building a website, I'd expect some aspect of cloud, some aspect of APIs, some aspect of databases, some complexities like authentication, using technologies/stacks that are commonly used.

[unreal ocean]

but how much is too much

[spark cobalt]

When the time spent on a new project is much more worthwhile than adding new features on the old project.

[unreal ocean]

oh new thing to me

but makes sense

[spark cobalt]

Typically the harder things of development comes with bringing all pieces of the app together. Doing JUST the cloud connection, JUST the APIs, JUST the database, etc. is super simple. Putting it all together in a cohesive manner is the more challenging part.

[spark cobalt]

Oh and for Darkwind, I'd probably expect testing done as well, good versioning/commits, CI pipeline, etc.

[unreal ocean]

can I share the project with you, if you don't mind?
it would help me get a better idea of how much work should be done on my projects

[spark cobalt]

Sure idrm

[unreal ocean]

https://ificiana.github.io/tdj/
here it is...
source code: https://github.com/ificiana/tdj

[spark cobalt]

Coincidentally, am learning Japanese right now :3

[unreal ocean]

lmao

it started as a learning utility more than a dedicated project
so there are several patchworks and just working code

[spark cobalt]

I would only say if you're trying to do web development, it's best you develop the frontend with a framework that's used in the industry. VanillaJS is not really commonly used.

[unreal ocean]

i am not really confident about my aesthetic skills so I apply to backend roles

which is why... I am still to learn react or angular properly

[spark cobalt]

Things like pushing directly to a main branch, might not be so liked. Your majority of the app being in 2 commits titled "Upload frontend files" "Upload the backend" is very sketch.

[unreal ocean]

ah so I need a good commit history

[spark cobalt]

It's not something checked often I don't think? But some of the more senior people in this channel have said that they do check on it.

[spark cobalt]

Demonstrates maturity as a developer kind of thing

[unreal ocean]

I see, I have maintained a dev branch on my more dedicated projects

like one I actually published to pypi

but that project is still lacking documentation sigh

So points to have about projects:

• have a good commit history
• use commonly used technologies/frameworks
• have testing

[spark cobalt]

It's just sketch when it's "upload backend files."

[white relic]

I've checked the git history of one person before. It was after the interview, some of us liked him and others didn't, and I was looking for evidence to support hiring him.
Honestly, it wasn't great, but it was enough to show he wasn't lying in the interview. He was hired.

[unreal ocean]

got it

[spark cobalt]

Can think about it like company projects, but on a smaller scale.

[white relic]

Technical people probably don't do deep dives on applicants' projects unless they're already in strong contention, so I would say it is good to have one or two well-documented github projects in case you get that far - but if you aren't getting interviews, or if you're not getting past the first round, working on your resume or doing practice interviews will probably have a better effect.

[unreal ocean]

that's what you meant by a rounded development, right?

[spark cobalt]

Something to that effect, yes. Because your projects are a way to make up for lack of experience, you want it to be a good representation of what you're capable of doing.

I have one of my smaller projects organized with Jira too, but that's kind of overkill tbh. And then all the commits/merges/branches are based on ticket IDs

Just the idea is to best mock this experience you don't have.

[white relic]

Incidentally, "personal projects" aren't nearly as much of a thing in engineering, and I'm not sure why that is. Do typical CS programs not involve building major projects in coursework?

[unreal ocean]

what is the best way to present them, really
I have only one project that is properly structured (i hope) here: https://github.com/ificiana/remagic
but as a functionality... it's not doing much
how can i show it's an original idea and not something copied

[spark cobalt]

Having looked at a lot of new grad projects, it really feels like they don't. But I just don't know if there's a stigma against putting school projects on your resume.

[unreal ocean]

yeah we have that... this semester (spring) onwards

but it's not that of a big deal, one can get by making something simple

[unreal ocean]

mocking a job is an interesting idea

[slender yoke]

I'm in a CS program and I can say that yeah we do build many projects as part of our coursework

but sometimes personal projects that we build on our own are more interesting or more oriented towards the career path you want to take

[unreal ocean]

well if you consider the weekly assignments as a project... it's more skill building

[white relic]

If there is such a stigma, that seems strange.
I built a single board computer (designed PCB, chose parts, assembled and programmed) in my junior year, and (on a team, with a local industry partner) made a temperature stable power amplifier my senior year. No "personal" projects. Didn't have trouble getting hired.

[white relic]

ah yeah I'm talking like semester or year long projects

[slender yoke]

Possibly because you had a strong graduation project

and overall good projects, so that makes up for it

[spark cobalt]

Interesting. I should probably talk to more college students and get more data on what college is really like.

[white relic]

hence my question, this is pretty typical in engineering, but I guess CS programs tend to do less in the way of projects(?)

[spark cobalt]

I know CE does a lot of projects. CS probably not?

My CE friends have been doing quarter long projects since the first semester.

[white relic]

curious.

[unreal ocean]

if I talk about my program, they are clearly more in favour of personal projects

[slender yoke]

After freshman year in CS, I had to do semester-long projects in most of my courses. So i guess it depends on the program you're doing and the university

[spark cobalt]

What types of projects were they?

[unreal ocean]

another thing, do MOOCs certificates (like Coursera) really help?
I like learning regardless, I am also very interested in academia and research

[slender yoke]

For Web Dev course we had to build a website (front end and back end). Software Engineering course we had to build a car parking system using Java.
Another one was an expert system

[unreal ocean]

ah we had a project like that in software engineering

[slender yoke]

and many more
But these are general projects we did on our first 2 years, before we got to pick our specialization. So if you get into AI you'll be doing AI related projects, and the same goes for the other specializations

[spark cobalt]

Oh interesting. Then I just wonder why so many new grads have none of these types of projects. Like I pretty much only see personal projects...

[spark cobalt]

Maybe this is also an issue of time? Did you graduate recently?

[unreal ocean]

if I talk about myself, it's simply not made great

since at uni they accept things if it's working, they don't dig into the source code

[slender yoke]

Well speaking for myself, I didn't add these projects on my resume since I have stronger projects related to my field (AI).
I have them added on my GitHub tho

[spark cobalt]

Ah gotcha. The thing is I see so many resumes that have projects worse than the ones you've stated which are presumably personal projects. So it make me confused.

[unreal ocean]

depends on the university ig

[white relic]

This doesn't look like a copy-paste project to me, so I think you're ok on that front.
I wouldn't want to have commit messages / PRs named generic stuff like "add new features" and "refactoring" but it's a pretty minor quibble in my eye (good commit hygiene can be taught and enforced after the person is hired, if they show willingness to learn).
Be sure you put a description of the project on your resume, not just the URL - automated systems don't click links, and neither do most people.

[slender yoke]

I haven't graduated yet, but our uni system is 2 years of general CS, where you take foundational courses in all specializations, and then you pick the major you'll continue with in the remaining 2 years

[spark cobalt]

Maybe. Or perhaps I just see too many resumes of lower end students.

Who knows, I'll have to ask around

[unreal ocean]

arrite thanks for reviewing, it was a great help! getting reviewed before I actually put it on my resume is great

[slender yoke]

Probably. Also considering that university level resumes are so diverse, some students tend to stick to just doing uni courses and others self-study outside uni and create personal projects

[unreal ocean]

@slender yoke is your course 3 years?

[slender yoke]

nope, 4

[unreal ocean]

and now in final?

ah I see, mine is also 4

[slender yoke]

3rd

[unreal ocean]

same then

[slender yoke]

is it also the same, where you have to pick a specialization inside CS?

[unreal ocean]

yeah

[spark cobalt]

Is this picking a specialization required in order to get your BS?

[unreal ocean]

yeah

[slender yoke]

Yep

[unreal ocean]

like you have a pool of subjects, you choose 1 in 4 or so subjects each semester

[spark cobalt]

What countries are you guys in?

[slender yoke]

Oh for us it's not subjects, we have AI, IT, IS, CS and DS (decision support) and each one of them has their own courses. We are allowed to take 2 courses from another specialization tho

[spark cobalt]

Ohh are they separate degrees entirely? Like ik some colleges have IT/CS/Data Science distinction

[slender yoke]

Egypt

[spark cobalt]

Ah in America

[slender yoke]

They're all the same degree, BSc in CS with a specialization in whatever you picked

[spark cobalt]

Gotcha

[unreal ocean]

same
we have AI, DS (data science), Graphics and theoretical ones (like automata or advanced algorithms) are given options

and it's the same degree, it doesn't say what we specialised in

but we can mention it in our coursework ig

[slender yoke]

Ohh automata sounds interesting

[unreal ocean]

I took that, it's fun

[unreal ocean]

but i know there are some colleges here offering separate degrees
cons is that, they can't choose subjects from two or more specialisations at once
but we can

[spark cobalt]

Icic, interesting. Thanks for your input guys!

[white relic]

I know there are universities in the US that have a similar system.

Probably it's easier/cheaper for accreditation purposes to offer three specializations of a degree than three different degrees.

[unreal ocean]

thanks for your reviews too, wilder and trentj
it was valuable

[spark cobalt]

Yeah definitely. Probably the more popular route in America particularly cuz of cost

However, I was at UCSB a couple months ago, and it seems like they created a separate degree for data science. Was kind of the "all the kids that aimed for CS but couldn't make it did data science"

So perhaps these things will open up more due to raw demand...

[slender yoke]

Don't they learn CS-related stuff to? Or is it more of statistics

[spark cobalt]

I'm assuming they do, but I don't know.

[lime bramble]

Honestly I have seen discord conversation preety good. I joined discord for education purpose

[near ocean]

Thats not related to careers, is it? #python-discussion

[viral echo]

?

[near remnant]

I've got 4 calls today, invites for interviews :oooo daymn son!

[somber hazel]

Hey wilder i gave your book a read

it was good

[sleek egret]

oh, so "data science" degrees are the new "information technology" degrees?

[somber hazel]

guys do you have any suggestion to learn pytorch any resources?

[spark cobalt]

[spark cobalt]

Unfortunately not. Only ever did some studying into MLT but never beyond that. Perhaps their docs suggest some resources to learn.

[sleek egret]

here, try this https://course.fast.ai/

it's got bunnies, so it must be gentle

[somber hazel]

thnx so much guys

[near remnant]

Which one

[vapid sundial]

yeah, its cool to use for quick implimentations, but you still need to know how to use what it spits out, and how to fix it if its garbage, which it spits out frequently. however its a very usefull rubber ducky imo

[sleek egret]

that's today. what about in 10 years?

[buoyant seal]

more AI, less competion to juniors who know it is not a threat. Finally juniors got lucky.

[sleek egret]

I suspect a lot of "junior" jobs are gonna go poof

[raven sleet]

Anyone would like to give a referral 4 Google London ? Currently SWE at fintech Bloomberg direct competitor fortune 500

[true harness]

you're asking for a person that doesn't know you at all to refer you?

[sleek egret]

the bloomberg offices in NYC are swanky

[sleek egret]

do you work for reuters or standard & poors?

[spark cobalt]

It's really common practice now.

[gilded valley]

It's Refinitiv now

[true harness]

that sounds quite risky for the referrer 🤔

[spark cobalt]

[sleek egret]

huh, who knew

[spark cobalt]

I'm referring a couple people myself from Discord. Though I did filter one person out...

[sleek egret]

I don't understand why one would refer anyone one does not know well personally

[spark cobalt]

Don't know them but they seem like a good fit and have the credentials for it.

[true harness]

that's what i thought

[gilded valley]

Oh they made a right arse of the rebranding. They had a hard cutoff which changed a bunch of API URLs

[spark cobalt]

Even online friends?

[sleek egret]

hell, there are lots of people I do know well I wouldn't refer

[sleek egret]

friendship doesn't need to include professional respect

[spark cobalt]

Yeah I get that. I wouldn't refer most of my friends.

[sleek egret]

that seems silly. the cost of maintaining old domains for years is minimal

is this a british thing? when hsbc dumped retail accounts in NY, they turned off access to your statements the same day. very VERY annoying

it's like they want to be sued

[sleek egret]

99% of the people I only know "online" aren't what I'd consider friends.

I might put maybe two or three guys, who I've chatted with for like 10+ years into the "friends" category

[spark cobalt]

This my primary referral that I'm pushing. Freshman in college for internships, and a really good culture fit.

[raven sleet]

Nope

[gilded valley]

I have no idea, but it was really fucking annoying. I'm pretty sure that exact question was asked to their reps and we got a non-response

[raven sleet]

Nope.

[spark cobalt]

He fills every checkbox we're looking for, so I don't see why I shouldn't refer him.

[true harness]

what if they're lying?

[spark cobalt]

They aren't. I've confirmed personally.

And it'll be easily exposed during the process of the interview either way, if he was. Which he isn't.

[gilded valley]

If it's not Refinitiv, it's not really a Bloomberg competitor.

[sleek egret]

hey now, S&P would say they are a bloomberg competitor 🙂

[true harness]

sure, but wouldn't that reflect badly on you

[sleek egret]

Wilder will do what he feels is best for all concerned. we have no right to question his judgement on this. IMO, of course.

[spark cobalt]

I've done everything in my power to assess whether he's a good fit for my company technically and culturally. I don't know what else anyone can expect.

[raven sleet]

If you Google top 10 you will see the result

[gilded valley]

Top 10 is irrelevant, number 2 is barely relevant

[spark cobalt]

I am sort of a corporate shill for my company. I'm seeing referrals as a 2 way street, not just one way.

[sleek egret]

lol, google lists ycharts for "top 10 bloomberg compeititors"

woops, ^ was for percy_liang

[raven sleet]

It doesn't really matter lamo

[spark cobalt]

Lots of college students I know would dent our culture. And really the culture is what makes me really enjoy working here. I wanna protect it as much as I can 🥲

[sleek egret]

we're just bored, don't sweat it 🙂

[raven sleet]

Actually I am not. Just being sarcastic

[sleek egret]

anyhoo

[gilded valley]

Sometimes this channel makes me think ChatGPT could already replace many software devs

[spark cobalt]

Good to build connections! Even collaborating with other developers on an open source project can lead to a referral even if they don't know you personally. Or connecting on LinkedIn, Twitter, or other social platforms.

[raven sleet]

If anyone works 4 google London what's the current situation at Google ?

[spark cobalt]

If you've given a good impact on them and showed you're capable, why wouldn't they want to refer you if they've already had a good history with you, and can vet your knowledge?

[sleek egret]

having worked with someone on a project seems like a good basis for a referal

[hoary river]

heey so I fell into a part-time semi-remote webmaster/dev gig through a connection after getting laid off a few months ago

[sleek egret]

the current situation is that google employs 185,000 around the world

[spark cobalt]

Yep! I just don't like the idea that you need to know everything about a person before referring them. Maybe since you're higher up in the position you have to be more careful who to refer, but on my end if they're someone that can bring value to the company, why not.

[sleek egret]

god only knows what they all do because "make money for the company" certainly doesn't seem like an employee objective

[summer roost]

collaborating on an OSS project is a much better way to lead to a referral than friendship on social media platforms, I'd say. Even the people I know best from Discord, I have no idea what the quality of their work is. If I've reviewed their PRs for some OSS project, then I do.

[spark cobalt]

Have had 4 requests for referrals. 2 denied. 1 pushing who I've vetted technically already and at least I think they're a great culture fit. Other one contemplating.

We shall see how it ends! Maybe I did get catfished 😔

I know a lot of people have stopped really caring. People are getting referrals to big tech through resources like* blind to get an advantage (pure stranger referral). Which, I understandably get but I wouldn't do my coworkers like that

[raven sleet]

In that case I'll just move to research engineer roles lmao

[raven sleet]

Sweet

[hoary river]

its keeping me afloat, and I've been learning python in a rather trial-by-fire manor building scripts for it

[sleek egret]

pretty much every gig I've had for the last 20 years has been through who I know and referrals

[hoary river]

and I've kind of got a really good opportunity for the next while to just hunker down and dedicate a shitton of time each day to learning coding

if I actually wanted to go self taught and do 4-8 hours a day of coding, what would I actually have to learn to make me hireable?

[sleek egret]

sure. hell, some people get hired on their BS alone. the real question is how far do you want to go and in what direction?

[hoary river]

Well that's the question, I'm looking at what languages people are listing on job applications and stuff and while there's a lot of python, obviously people aren't hiring for just python

[spark cobalt]

It's heavily dependent on what kind of software you want to build.

Each niche within tech has some layers of knowledge you want to know besides just knowing some programming language used within it.

[hoary river]

Yeah, right now I'm mostly using python to automate systems that previously were done manually, and while I'm technically getting paid to code, I kind of feel like I'm playing with wet sand and an arc welder

[sleek egret]

is it fun to play with wet sand and an arc welder?

[hoary river]

it saves our asses, but I don't really see the pathway from what I'm doing now to ~programming~

[white relic]

There's no absolute minimum you have to know to qualify for a job. You need to convince a company to take a risk on you. You can improve the odds of that happening by making yourself appear less risky: show you already have skills that they won't have to teach you, and show that you have the ability to learn the skills they will have to teach you.
But there's no break-over point where you go from "risky" to "not risky", it's just a matter of presenting your best work and continually trying to make it better

[sleek egret]

or get a referral from someone like Wilder

[white relic]

knowing people is another way of minimizing your perceived risk

[hoary river]

I'm mostly just thinking about like, is just trying to speedrun (healthily) FreeCodeCamp an effective strategy? Or do I look more targeted to what people are currently hiring for?

[sleek egret]

you're thinking way too broadly. you need to narrow your focus and hone your objectives or you'll just flounder in the surf until the rip tide sends you to the sharks.

[hoary river]

Like, trial by fire is great, but I'm mostly learning through building at the moment

[sleek egret]

programmers/software developer as a job is sort of like calling all health care professionals from EMT's and nurses, from orderlies and doctors, from physical therapists to surgeons, "health care worker".

[spark cobalt]

[hoary river]

So like, the code works, I just don't know if the code is good because there's probably better methods for everything, but the scale is so small it doesn't matter

[sleek egret]

that is, "programming" is an extremely broad field. EVERYTHING requires software these days. from planting crops to performing surgery. and at a multitude of different levels. the guys who maintain the bed inventory software for a hospital have a very different skillset from the guys who write code to explore protein folding for new drug discovery.

[hoary river]

so I should probably try building a broad variety of python projects to figure out what I like, eh?

[sleek egret]

for farming, you can work on the designing a product page for Tractor Supply to doing ML analysis of satellite imagery to determine crop planting patterns

point being, different jobs in different industries require (somewhat) different skills and knowledge. but they're all called "programmers". the world can be your oyster if you just know which pool to jump into.

first thing though, is to pick one

[upbeat nacelle]

Do you guys suggest any playlist to start learning python? I am completly new

[wise plaza]

hi guys !

any worthy data science bootcamp suggestion in US?

[peak halo]

do you already have a degree in a STEM field and career experience?

[wise plaza]

i have bachelor of Economics and a master degree in marketing management, recently I started python , have already know statistics and math

@peak halo i have bachelor of Economics and a master degree in marketing management, recently I have started python , have already know statistics and math

[raven sleet]

For python just start with fundamentals through online/think python and then just practice through DSA

I didn't do any python projects, I just did ML projects in python at uni

[slender yoke]

https://www.udacity.com/course/introduction-to-python--ud1110

[dire panther]

Do any of you know of legitimate bootcamps that offer real networking possibilities? I learned programming as part of my studies, then catched up with Python through various learning platforms but I haven't found any place to start building a carrer as an 'unexperienced' programmer yet. I'm open to hear about start ups and small projects in need of personnel.

[sand patio]

say I'm looking to get into college for computer science - what sort of things would they look for (both academically, and in terms of ECs and such)

for more context, my current GPA for the first semester of my sophomore year is a 3.6. I really want to try and get my overall GPA to a 3.9 or 4.0 by the time I end junior year.

[peak halo]

the admissions counselor for my CS program said "we look at general academic record, but math especially". and that having taken Calculus without getting an A was basically disqualifying.

we might have had this conversation before--are you on the most advanced math track available to you?

[sand patio]

not the most advanced one a sophomore here can take. That would be pre-calc. I'm a level below that, so algebra 2. Either way I'll still graduate after having done AP Calc.

math is one of my weaker points, I have a B right now.

[peak halo]

my recollection is that algebra 2 and pre-calc (assuming that's basically trig) are both cumbersome garbage. but I would encourage you to power through.
sorry I don't have better news.

[sand patio]

I see

I'll improve, hopefully. Probably a matter of practice

[peak halo]

I wish I had advice on that front. I did well in algebra 1 and geometry, and then went steadily downhill from there. I had to take calculus in community college to get into CS.

[sand patio]

I see, I appreciate the insight.

[spark cobalt]

You can also take summer school to "catch up" a level in math

[peak halo]

are you in the UK?

[sand patio]

mm, I don't think I'm necessarily behind - I'll still be graduating with having done calculus

[spark cobalt]

...that having taken Calculus without getting an A was basically disqualifying.

From this sounds like they would ideally want Calculus to already be done, so in junior year supposedly. Emphasis on ideally.

[sand patio]

ah

I'll be taking it senior year, but - isn't it the credits that count? If I take it in senior year, the credits would still transfer over, no?

[peak halo]

afaik, derivative calculus is usually taught as a one-year course in US high schools as an advanced course for last-year students.

as opposed to being a semester course at university

[spark cobalt]

Most of my friends right now are doing LA first semester, so sounds about right. In the US we have Calc A B and C, where each letter is a semester of calculus.

I think people do Calc AB in Junior, and Calc BC in Senior. I did Precalc H in Sophomore which let me skip Calc A so I could do Calc BC in Junior year.

But I don't know how colleges diffrentiate from AB or BC.

[inner wren]

Hey @low field!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.docx). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[peak halo]

if you posted a resume, do it as a (large) screenshot.

[sand patio]

If I do well, I believe I'd be able to skip AB, and just go to BC (in my senior year)

[peak halo]

this is the first I've heard about Calc {A, B, C}

[inner wren]

Hey @low field!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[spark cobalt]

Calc A is pretty much a lot of pre-calc + intro to derivatives or something to that effect.

[peak halo]

@low field please post whatever it is as a screenshot

[spark cobalt]

Our school was able to cram the Calc A curriculum into Precalc class to make Precalc Honors because so much of the curriculum is repeated.

[low field]

So I've spent that past nearly two years teaching myself how to code.

During that time I've managed to get, what I assume at least, a reasonable grip on Python, and actually do some (technically) commissioned on a campaign website.

I just want to "get my foot in the door" to be a software developer. I think any entry level job would be perfect.

I'm was wondering if anyone could take a look at my portfolio and resume and give me some advice on job hunting.

Here is my GitHub profile: https://github.com/nkocodes

And attached is a (very) rough draft of my resume. I've censored my contact information on it for obvious reasons.

[sand patio]

I see. So I'd be fine just skipping AB

[spark cobalt]

You should be fine, yes. But really depends on if the school allows you to do it.

[sand patio]

I thiiiink so. I'll have a sit down with my counselor about it

[spark cobalt]

Are you Precalc in sophomore year? I never caught the context.

[sand patio]

no, I'll be pre-calc next year, so junior year

I'm in algebra 2/trig right now, sophomore year

[spark cobalt]

Grew up in like a predominantly Asian school where parents really push the math progression. So most of us were Calc BC in Junior year.

I'd also try to see if you can do summer classes or a way to get Precalc credits during the year or something.

I don't know how normal it is to do precalc in Junior year.

[sand patio]

same here, lots of my friends are taking pre-calc sophomore year

I got lucky, my parents didn't push me into after school classes and such :p

[spark cobalt]

Most of our school caught up by doing summer school to move up a math level.

Was like a 1.5 month endeavor, 3-4 hours a day.

[sand patio]

Depends on where you live, I guess. Some places don't have the same kind of progression options in the first place

[spark cobalt]

Yeah good point

[sand patio]

I think I'll be off for now, it's getting late. Thanks so much for the insight

[spark cobalt]

Idk how the whole competitive aspect of applying for college works on the internals, but it might look bad if your a year behind everyone else. All I can really say

[simple iron]

hi are you still here? i would like to ask about how you learned html and css. thx

[low field]

I'm still here, thanks for responding.

I learned by teaching myself. Mostly via LinkedIn tutorials, Youtube videos, Discord, and trial and error.

[simple iron]

hi im taking harvards cs50x course and im loosing momentum when i have to search for how to do things in css

im curious on how to stay motivated

i keep getting headaches and loose momentum

[low field]

I was motivated because I had to learn while making a website.

CSS is pretty easy. The hard part is making the website look presentable. If you change one thing you have to change a fair share in addition to it.

Just be sure to start with a "grid format" first. I learned that the hard way.

[simple iron]

what is a grid format?

are there steps to making a website from scratch?

[low field]

It's how you position your items. Think of each "part" of a website behind stacked on and by each other like blocks.

[spark cobalt]

I wouldn't get way too caught up in VanillaJS.

[low field]

It's best to use YouTube or search an online tutorial. But the best thing would be to start with HTML and just do basic stuff with that. Then move on to CSS.

[simple iron]

ok thx, did you get frustrated when you made your first website and had to look stuff up

[spark cobalt]

For me how I learned web development was pretty simple.

One of my second round interviews was to create a React website, and it was for some electronic billboarding company. Never built any sort of frontend before, never touched HTML/CSS/JS/JSX. And had to build something in under a week.

I spent the first day learning HTML/CSS/JS. I didn't spend almost any time building VanillaJS websites. Just experimented with tags, styling, and got comfortable with the JS syntax (I already knew Dart, which was a similar language beforehand.)

The second day I burned through a React book. Just grilling the idea of components, state, and some hooks into my head.

3rd-7th day, ended up building a billboard simulation where you're able to switch lanes, go forward and back, and view a billboard that pulls from their API every x seconds at any angle.

Realistically, you won't be coding VanillaJS almost at all in a professional environment. You'd end up using a framework, which the most popular one right now is React.

[simple iron]

yeah i watched some tutorials then get frustrated when implementing

[spark cobalt]

Building individual components with HTML/CSS is very simple, but putting them all together cohesively is what makes VanillaJS a little bit of a bitch to do. Where frameworks will help with this much better.

[low field]

Just start small. Like make a very simple HTML blog (90's style) and go from there. HTML and CSS are braindead easy. It's just making everything cohesive and not having things step over each other that is the challenge.

[spark cobalt]

If you're spending like a week+ to build some VanillaJS website, you're spending time on the wrong thing. But that's just imo.

[simple iron]

ok thx im looking this stuff up right now one sec

for the project im working on it bascally needs to look nice and im having trouble with positioning for desktop and mobile any recommended tutorials?

[spark cobalt]

Sounds like you're in tutorial hell.

[simple iron]

yeah i keep getting frustrated then procrastinating is there a way to steam roll through

[spark cobalt]

Sit through the uncomfortableness. If this was easy, everyone would do it.

[simple iron]

any tips i guess

[spark cobalt]

Cut off distractions. Get good sleep. Eat well.

[simple iron]

mmph ok

idk i keep getting migranes. was it this bad for you?

[spark cobalt]

No. I had a specific time frame to get things done, coded 16 hours a day straight to achieve it.

[simple iron]

wow how long have you been coding?

[spark cobalt]

Burnt out a couple days afterwards.

Only 2 years. Been working full time for several months now.

[simple iron]

im brand new 3/4 way through a course can i ask how you started

[spark cobalt]

Coded a Discord bot to manage a tournament league for a community I was in.

[simple iron]

did you do any courses

and how did you find a job

[spark cobalt]

No.

Applying online.

[simple iron]

im 16 right now and wondering what ill do once i am 18. any good application sites

[spark cobalt]

All the generic ones.

LinkedIn, Glassdoor, Indeed, etc.

[simple iron]

did you just put projects on your resume?

did you have certain goals on what you wanted to learn?

or did you just learn to complete a project

[spark cobalt]

1. Yes
2. Not anything in particular. Lots of time was spent exploring.
3. Yes

Are you thinking of not going to college? If so, why?

[simple iron]

im homeschooled and i not really sure if i want to go to collage

my family owns a property and were living with some spacex engineers and on which was a software engineer said he just went to collage for the fun of it

[spark cobalt]

If you're having trouble focusing, sticking to a long term regimen, getting out of your comfort zone to go to dev meetups and meet new people, trouble selling yourself, etc. this path might not be for you.

College would be the significantly easier path irregardless.

[simple iron]

my family doesnt really like schools tbh

do you think online meetups would be helpfull?

[spark cobalt]

That's fine. But that also means you need to grow up and accept maturity fast. Do things out of your comfort zone, and really go out there and do shit.

[spark cobalt]

Never went to any. Only went to in person meetups.

[simple iron]

mmph im in brownsville tx which is a border town so everyone here only really knows hardskills

exept for the spacex engineers but i only know 1 and my connection isnt that close

[spark cobalt]

You need to do serious research in every aspect of your process to become an engineer. Things like:

• What kind of projects managers are looking for?
• What should my resume layout be for someone with no college/prior experience?
• How can I compete with new grads for positons? How can I stand out?

There's the self learning part, project part, resume part, job hunting part, technical interview part, behavioral interview part, among other parts that may come like networking, negotiations, etc.

Let's put it this way. Why should a hiring manager hire you over a new grad? What can you possibly provide that a new grad can't?

[simple iron]

mmph yeah i get where your coming

[spark cobalt]

The issue with self taught is you have nothing to seriously back up your skills. Certificates can be cheated, projects can be copied, but a degree can't. Managers love consistency, and degrees give them that. They know what new grads learned, they know what to expect because they've dealt with thousands of new grads before.

You are a huge risk, and you need to do everything in your power to minimize your risk to an employer.

[simple iron]

right now i just put about 4 months of work into the cs50 course im wondering if i want at spacex maybe i would be better on the technical side

[spark cobalt]

That is, beyond wildly ambitious. Unless you're some prodigy that is super in depth with rocket science, probably have some papers published including very compelling related projects, I doubt they'd hire you for anything other than like maybe a front end engineer.

But I don't know you, so you could very well much be that prodigy.

[simple iron]

i know how to fix hydraulics and how to maintain mechanisms

[spark cobalt]

I do not know what's involved and what skills are needed to work at SpaceX. You should ask your connections.

[simple iron]

yeah the engineer thats with us right now is a structural engineer and is kind of a shy guy

[spark cobalt]

It looks like they have hired high schoolers for internships.

[simple iron]

i feel weird approching him on the topic

[simple iron]

yeah most jobs require at least a high school diploma

[spark cobalt]

Most respectfully, grow a pair. It's not easy to go into an interview either, or go to an in person dev meetup, or anything else in your position where there's so few people that went your path.

Do you want to work at SpaceX or not? Hope that answers whether you should talk to him.

[simple iron]

thx this helps

i would like a job there, but im also wondering what to do with my life

[spark cobalt]

If you are wondering why I'm being this aggressive, or coming off as so. I'm 18 right now that decided to do the path you did. And this is very few of the multitude of challenges I had to go through. So many questions I had, there were nothing online to help me. I had to talk to so many engineers, grow the balls to talk to people that could easily look down on me for lack of education.

Which also comes with, I also got rejected a fuckton of times. I've applied to 4000 jobs and got 2 job offers. That's over 3000 rejections, and I'm still getting rejections from job applications from half a year ago now. That's just the amount of shit I went through.

So many dev meetups, half the people there just say go to school and then never talk to you afterwards. You have people around you that might not believe in your plan, etc.

There's a lot of things you need to know to pull this off, on top of just a sheer work ethic, and ability to pull through on things.

[simple iron]

how long have you been working?

[spark cobalt]

Let's say you have all the technical skills needed, you still need to do heavy, heavy work on selling yourself. Building yourself up to the point where your behavioral/technical is immaculate in interviews. Give people no reason to not hire you after they've met you in person.

[spark cobalt]

4-5 months now. Graduated HS last year, am 18 rn.

[spark cobalt]

College is pretty good for figuring out what you want to do in life. Gives you a solid foundation while also letting you explore freely in different areas of tech.

If you don't know what to do in your life, idk why you would want to pursue a path where like the base requirement is you know precisely what the goal is, and exactly how you're going to get there.

[simple iron]

i just found coding fun and was wondering what a career in it would be like

[spark cobalt]

I love it.

[simple iron]

i've met these engineers and the ones that get the promotion are the ones that move fast and put in the time

i was working with this one guy who got promoted and some other people and that guy did some really stupid stuff
but he moved quickly.
and fixed his mistakes

whats your goal in software engineering?

[simple iron]

hello , thx for talking this did help me clear up some of the things i was thinking about

[spark cobalt]

There is no goal. I love doing it. The time and money it gives me will help fund my other dreams in life.

I guess the goal is to just keep doing it.

[simple iron]

that sounds great

Goodnight and good luck

[spark cobalt]

And you as well

[simple iron]

i might try chatting to you later

[spark cobalt]

Ok.

[simple iron]

see ya

[barren acorn]

greeting seniors i am learning python for ML ,i am. at beginner level ,i wanna know where i can find python practise material,because i often feel confuse in building logic

[smoky quest]

• automate the boring stuff
• codingame.com has some gamified exercises

[barren acorn]

automate the boring stuff is it a book name right?

[smoky quest]

yes

[rancid kraken]

Do companies care about your age?

Like I'm in my mid 30s and just started learning Python. It'll take me may be 1 yr+++ of learning & practicing to be confident enough to apply. But at such age, is it even feasible?

[smoky quest]

they don't care about your age as long as you don't care about being paid the same than other engineers of your age but more experience

And as long as you don't care having your boss being half your age

[rancid kraken]

Fair enough

[smoky quest]

There will always be some folks that are ageist, ableist, racist, etc.
However in general, it's rather meritocratic. You will have your chances as long as you can pass the interview. It's also not as out there as it used to be considering that some folks may have been out to raise kids or convert from some another line of work

[rancid kraken]

Noted. I understand prejudice/bias will exist no matter what. But as long as the possibility isn't 0%, I'll keep a positive mindset.

[smoky quest]

And to keep honest, it definitely won't be easy. But it will be possible if you can pass interviews

good luck!

[rancid kraken]

Gonna need it. Thanks!

[tight cliff]

Hi, I am trying to build a personal project using python(beginner level). But while searching for ideas I am not able to find anything could anyone suggest few websites for guided projects.

[spark cobalt]

• https://charity.wtf/2021/02/19/questionable-advice-how-can-i-sniff-out-bad-managers-while-interviewing-for-a-job/
• https://github.com/viraptor/reverse-interview
• https://github.com/tBaxter/questions-for-employers

[near remnant]

I'm going to have an interview tomorrow for a stack I'm not familiar with, should I attend, even though I feel like I will get destroyed?

[crude moon]

yes, why not, youll learn anyway

sometimes employers just want smart people and they can teach the rest, if not they might ask some interesting things that you can go home and look up and learn for the future

[smoky quest]

why was it scheduled in the first place if you don't feel that confident at all?

[near remnant]

Ask the hiring manager I guess

[smoky quest]

you scheduled it, not the hiring manager

you had to give your availability and confirm

[near remnant]

Ehm, what? Is it my problem that the hiring manager thought I should have an interview with them?

I can't say no, maybe that's an issue

[smoky quest]

Are you manufacturing outrage?
If you schedule an interview and back out of it, it is your problem. It will be recorded as such in the ATS for any future interview and job application

Welcome to the world of adults \0/

Actions have consequences

The point here is not to blame you, but to make you understand that, as an adult, you can't just deflect the blame on others. The interview wasn't scheduled without your consent nor awareness. As such, you need to choose which interview you take on based on your skills and objectives

[near remnant]

Sure, then just go, take the interview, get destroyed and then go to another interview at a different company.

What I was trying to tell you is, why do hiring managers invite people to interviews when they know, the position is not good for them.

[smoky quest]

Because they might have something worth talking about

But they can't know in advance if the candidate was misrepresenting or overstating their skills, experience or knowledge

[near remnant]

So you think it is always the candidate's fault. Damn mate, interesting.

[smoky quest]

That's missing the whole point

[near remnant]

If I put for example Python as a Skill in my resume and they invite me for a Ruby interview for example, why is it the candidate's fault? Please explain

[smoky quest]

lol no. You are just looking for deflect. I ain't gonna waste my time

[dawn pilot]

Why agree to a meeting like that though, I'd probably retell them that I do Python and have never done Ruby

I'd probably try to assess with them if they're willing to teach Ruby despite only knowing Python

[near remnant]

Anyways, I will attend the interview. No matter what, at least I gain some interview experience.

[dawn pilot]

for sure

[smoky quest]

You could also send an email to withdraw and let them know you don't feel ready or a great candidate for it. And that despite that you do feel grateful for meeting them and learning more about their company and team

Still much better than a no-show

[near remnant]

Sheesh I just got invited to another interview again

I will have 6 interviews this week wtf 💀 my anxiety kicks in

[raven sleet]

Don't spend too much time and effort on learning html&CSS. Most companies use figma and other vendors but instead learn vue.js or angular plus languages and then practice DSA

[vernal copper]

what lib should i use for web scraping a java-based website?

[buoyant seal]

do u have permission from site owner?

[white relic]

this isn't careers related

[vernal copper]

Yes

[buoyant seal]

#unit-testing

[halcyon quail]

hello there 🙂 I was invited for the first interview ! could you recommend me a single book to refresh all the python-related thingsy starting from the simplest to the most advanced?

[buoyant seal]

that would be fat book to contain everything in one 😆
I can recommend only in several (size would be matching this one super book anyway)

1. Python in simple packages for simple stuff
2. Clean code in Python for advanced syntax
3. Python Expert Programming for different obscure topics in Python, like parallelism and etc

[halcyon quail]

Thank you for these 🙂

Yes. I know it would be, I need something like Schildt's "Java: The Complete Reference"

[buoyant seal]

ergh. There is similar book in Python, but it is too dry, and soooooo fat. (in many volumes) I don't want to recommend it (plus it is too much outdated)

[halcyon quail]

Ugh... The one from Java was pretty awesome. Comprehensive and focusing indeed on the important things

Quite good for someone's like me who already has a background in programming... (instead of re-reading what the loop is hhh)

[spark cobalt]

I would also review DSA questions if they're asked. (Leetcode type questions)

[halcyon quail]

Ok.Thanks. This is what I gonna do in the weekend. Prior to that - reading :-)(

[buoyant seal]

Thanks for recommendation. Planning to learn Java as my third language to job level 😆

[halcyon quail]

I believe they won't ask about literally eveyrthing, for this is the junior's job, but... I wish to show up well

[halcyon quail]

It is literally awesome. You won't regret!

[buoyant seal]

First book is already decided, it will be without any doubts this one though 😆

[halcyon quail]

HHHHHHHH Head First. I never could get over them!

[buoyant seal]

sometimes i think my end dream of all my career could be ever reaching level to write for Head First.
What could be more awesome and better ultimate-end goal than this

[halcyon quail]

Good luck 😄 Maybe one day

[white relic]

Fluent Python is a good book. intermediate-advanced level, but not really about profoundly tricky and obscure stuff. If you already know programming in some other language or if you're pretty familiar with Python surface stuff and want to go deeper.

It is a thick and dense book though. How much time do you have to prep for this interview?

[halcyon quail]

Week? Or two or three (if I postpone it)

[white relic]

a week or two probably isn't going to make the difference between doing well or doing poorly

Well, good luck, anyway!

[halcyon quail]

Hhhhhh not enough time?

[white relic]

you can (presumably) get through a big book in a week, but, like... reading a book isn't a substitute for writing code. Experience takes time

[halcyon quail]

Yes, I am aware of it. I need just to recall everything. The code has been written extensively already 🙂

[white relic]

Then, you'll probably be fine.

I would recommend spending some of your prep time not just studying Python, but refreshing your memory on some of that code you've already written, because a good interviewer will ask you about previous projects and not just quiz you on language trivia.

[halcyon quail]

Good to know

[winged bolt]

How can I learn python ?

[buoyant seal]

1. Going to university for CS degree for getting proper education
2. Reading books / applying at practice in pet projects 🙂
3. may be there are other ways

[winged bolt]

😀🙃

[buoyant seal]

nice book to get started

[winged bolt]

thanks

[nimble willow]

I have a question for experienced data analysts

What is the selection process like for data analyst internship

[true harness]

getting a cs degree just to learn python seems a bit overkill

[lapis wind]

Yeah..

[wise plaza]

hi guys, how can you get a job easier in data science field? boot camps or masters ? I have Bachelor of economics and master degree of marketing management, which one would be a good choice ?

[sonic pike]

Guys, does anyone have a huge code for python, it can be anything just functional

[buoyant seal]

that was from assumption, Python is learned for job.
if for data science => then CS or data science / math related degree is prefered
if for backend software development => then CS degree (or again something STEM with cs inclusion)

no need to have CS to learn Python, but CS is highly preferably needed for job and to apply Python in it 😆

[wise plaza]

hi guys, how can you get a job easier in data science field? boot camps or masters ? I have Bachelor of economics and master degree of marketing management, which one would be a good choice ?

[hasty snow]

What things are discussed in an onboarding call?

[buoyant seal]

degree where more math was learned will be more related, preferably at least with some cs inclusion

[wise plaza]

@buoyant seal thanks for your reply, I mean that is harder to get a job as a data scientist with a bootcamp rather than master?

[buoyant seal]

Yes. It is a job where Bachelor degree is minimal requirement, often enough required Masters, and some require only Doctors of science

[peak halo]

I'm not entirely sure what marketing management is, but in general, it's possible to get a job where your title is "data scientist" (as an alternative title to "analyst") if you have a masters in a technical field and you know programming and stats.

"data science" is a useful catch-all term for AI, ML, and scientific computing in general. but the concept of having "data scientists" as an occupation didn't really live up to the hype--there's already a term for the science of data, and it's "statistics". statisticians don't become a characteristically new thing if they know Python.

[velvet fox]

Guys need some advice...
I recently got an opportunity for research associate at a reputed university under some top researchers on my request and proof of work

Now currently I'm in a corporate internship which i do not know if it'll be extended or not
And hence im unable to accept the RA and in the juncture of confusion

How do I go about this

[delicate bane]

stel, going to a conference at the end of the month. would it be bad if i lowkey look for a new job/opportunity there? just keeping my eyes peeled

[velvet fox]

Arghhhhhh I'm screaming

[peak halo]

I don't know that I'm especially equipped to answer that. but there's never anything wrong with making connections, I don't think.

[hearty island]

92% through my yellow belt cert 🙂

[true harness]

what's a yellow belt cert?

[hearty island]

it's for this thing called lean six sigma

it's a popular cert for project management and it goes well with the PMP

[elder turtle]

Hey guys, I'm back again. a couple of questions for you guys:

Firstly, are there any specific Python skills that make a person more attractive of a candidate than others? (FastAPI, AI, Data Analytics, etc)

Secondly, what is the best way to find open source projects to contribute to?

[wind zephyr]

which is better ui ux disigner or programming field how do k know which is fitted for me?

[dreamy shadow]

[peak halo]

why mad

to be clear, I'm not saying that the work of data scientists is illegitimate. only that it isn't a new class of occupation.

[dreamy shadow]

Actually, the "If those kids could read they'd be very upset" meme fits better.

I don't really think the job title Statistician is even used in modern day. It's more of a dino title, most just are now analyst or data scientist

[peak halo]

sure, but "computer scientist" isn't really a job title, either.

[dreamy shadow]

[dusk tusk]

Does anyone know of a place I could go for paid work that doesnt include fivver or upwork? I am not soliciting here just trying to find where i should look.

[gilded valley]

I am. Have you heard them speak? Pandas, Bert, eigenvectors, ARIMA - they make this nonsense up on the fly

[dreamy shadow]

It's funny, because if you type Statistician in Linkedin job search, besides universities, everything else is analyst/Data scientist(more rare). Where as computer scientist actually shows up with roles. Albeit mostly government.

[delicate bane]

youve at least been to more conferences than me

but youre right. i think more connections can never hurt.

[peak halo]

I've only been to PyCon, and only once 😛

[delicate bane]

ive only been to non-tech conferences and im assuming tech ones have a different feel to them

[dreamy shadow]

I would only go if company pays lol

[smoky quest]

and more tshirts and swag

[worn orchid]

Copyright lawsuit defendants evidence be like

[dreamy shadow]

I went to a manufacturing event once in highschool. Lanyards, beer openers EVERYWHERE.

[smoky quest]

there are also different expectations depending on your output. Whether someone expect a report and insights or a model in production

[delicate bane]

too many expectations. job specializations when.

[dreamy shadow]

Soon ™️

[gilded valley]

I think the opposite. We don't have these super granular titles near as much in software development, I think we're likely to reach a place where titles like analytics engineer, data engineer, machine learning engineer, data science developer get munged into one

[true harness]

"data developer"

[gilded valley]

Software development has maybe three overarching titles, frontend, backend, and DevOps guy

With mild variations on those

[peak halo]

don't forget breakfast developer: #career-advice message

[delicate bane]

you believe this? i was under the impression that the job titles were differentiating not merging

[delicate bane]

you cant use that term. itll get confused with Database Developer which are lowkey just DBAs lmao

unless you are a backend dev that wants to create your own indexes and replications ig

too many parts to the stack, with potential for overlap. software is already confusing. data will probably be even more so.

[gilded valley]

I think I could pass that interview. "Yes, I chose to use a stack here... It means the pancakes stay warm longer"

[buoyant seal]

Searching job at LinkedIn and indeed.com

[sleek egret]

when you stop seeking jobs, jobs will start seeking you

[buoyant seal]

💯

[dusk tusk]

I wish that were the case. I've tried getting a tutor gig or small jobs but the market is flooded with build me a website type jobs and I'm not interested in front-end work.

I may reach out to local schools next I think

[near ocean]

schools might ask for official teaching certifications, but good luck with it

[vocal scarab]

Do you think it’s better to go to college and get a degree in cs or get a certification and go straight into the workforce?

[peak halo]

getting a degree in CS. you probably won't go straight into the workforce with a cert. whereas you probably will with a CS degree.

[vocal scarab]

What if I do freelancing after I obtain my certification instead of heading over to a big company?

[peak halo]

you have to know way more to be a freelancer than you do to get an entry level job with a company. you won't learn everything you need to know to be a freelancer from getting a CS degree--even less so with a cert.

successful freelancers usually work for a while in industry, and build up the skill set and portfolio whereby they can be successful (and marketable) solo.

[vocal scarab]

Ohhh I see, thank you.

[smoky quest]

freelancing is a cutthroat world.

Unless you are already very well established and has a strong network

[vocal scarab]

Oh alright.

[true harness]

which?

[sleek egret]

there are two types of "freelancing". one is where you're just a contract staffer. essentially a temp employee.

[gilded valley]

First, unless you have empty space

[smoky quest]

first one so you have more space for your projects 😉

[sleek egret]

the other type is more project based. that is more like running a business. and your primary activity is acquiring and managing clients.

[summer roost]

I'd say "expected graduation" rather than just "expected", also

[true harness]

hmmm, perhaps

this isn't an issue now, but since dean's list is awarded per semester, would you suggest listing all the semesters? something like

Dean's List: Fall 2022, Spring 2023, Fall 2023
or a range?
Dean's List: Fall 2022 - Fall 2023
? assuming i keep my gpa up 😔

also should i list in-major gpa or overall

[summer roost]

I'd probably list all of them, until that becomes too space intensive

[dreamy shadow]

ATS systems be like:

[sleek egret]

what's an ATS?

[pine sleet]

Abstract Tree Syntax

[gilded valley]

Applicant tracking system

[true harness]

is that related to what i sent

[dreamy shadow]

Maybe. My resume has something ATS doesn't like. Dates always get read in wrong.

The one thing I hate seeing the most is the window that says: "Your computer is about to restart. X:X:X remaining before your computer restarts automatically."

[hasty turtle]

can somone help?

i am trying to learn python code but when i try to run my code it says i need a plain text thing and i donwload one of vs marketplace and it still dont work

[gilded valley]

see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[still condor]

How would you define programmer burnout? And how do you get out of it?

[vapid jay]

Hey what careers are possible through learning python and more computer science as a general as I have applied for a level computer science in collage and hoping to get into access to uni level course as a level may be my backup

[gritty rivet]

Here are some ideas. You may also want to look at job listings in your country/area. https://medium.com/analytics-vidhya/careers-you-can-have-if-you-learn-python-bb3a8948d843

[vapid jay]

Thankyou

[vapid jay]

What do I need to become a software Developer in the uk?

[near ocean]

A degree

[gritty rivet]

I'm not in the UK, but if you're planning to pursue a degree, that should make things much easier. Look for internships while you're enrolled and that should put you in a great position to apply for jobs before you graduate.

[vapid jay]

I am going into college soon and hopefully going to university after I just didn’t know what I needed I always wanted to do something with computing

[near ocean]

Keep or get your grades up
Learn new things
Build a project or two
Enjoy life
If youre up for it, go to conventions/hackathons
Thats about it at this point really

[hearty island]

y'all
i passed my lean six sigma yellow belt cert with an 89%
w no notes
apparently it's open book LMAO

[still condor]

true sigma grindset

[hearty island]

now i have to get my green belt and black belt

[harsh jolt]

Come to PyCon UK and meet lots of other developers!

(or DjangoCon Europe which is in Edinburgh this year)

[sleek egret]

don't be a wage slave, man

[low snow]

I just received a return offer from my internship, they’re asking for my competing offers. Unfortunately they’re the first to extend me an official offer even though I’ve received a few verbal ones. Should I include a ballpark of the offers that I estimate I will get or will that not work?

[summer roost]

you should tell them that you're still waiting for a few other companies to respond, and you should reach out to the other companies to tell them that you have an offer from another company on the table, and that they'll need to get you an offer quickly in order for you to consider it

[low snow]

Unfortunately most of them have already told me that they can only consider an official offer within 1 year if my graduation date(I’m 18 months away) and this is the one I’m looking forward to the most. There’s no harm in trying again but I doubt it will work.

[white relic]

your internship is making you a return offer with 18 months of lead time??

[eternal mist]

What other options my guy

[smoky quest]

Do they know you got an offer on hand?
Having an offer can motivate them 😉

[sleek egret]

be one of the exploiters, not one of the exploited

[low snow]

🤔 Right, I should just try contacting them agaib

[white relic]

most companies won't make an offer for over a year in the future, unless you're somebody really special.

[low snow]

Yeah… On the one hand it’s really nice, on the other hand it’s hard for me to give competing offer because of the same reasons

[white relic]

that's why they do it, they want to lock you in.

[low snow]

Yepp I thought the same

[smoky quest]

that means you are worth the wait

[white relic]

it doesn't mean they are

[dreamy shadow]

You can always accept the offer now, then look again after you graduate.

[low snow]

Unfortunately I don’t like their tactic either but they are also the offer I want the most

[smoky quest]

not sure what's to complain about someone willing to make you an offer 18 months out

If you aren't thrilled by it, you could always tell them to call you back in 6 months

[white relic]

call back next year, more like.

[low snow]

Don’t get mr wrong I’m thrilled lmao. But they know I will only get my offers from other within 1 year, probably shouldn’t have told them that but

[white relic]

typical lead time in my experience is like 2-5 months.

[smoky quest]

We did return offers last autumn for the coming summer

(students were expecting that)

[white relic]

sure, same tactic

make the return offer early so the student doesn't bother to try to get a better deal

[low snow]

Yeah I feel this is more typical

[smoky quest]

By april/may, all the good ones are already taken

[low snow]

And I don’t want to accept the offer and reneges it because it’s a good comapny hmmm

[white relic]

december-february is probably more usual (for offers that aren't returning interns)

[smoky quest]

if you aren't ready, it's fine to let them know to hit you back later. Obviously, sugarcoat it about how you are very much interested in to them regardless

Though be mindful about whether or not the manager had to make an exception and fight with hr and co to get to make an offer so early

[dreamy shadow]

It's not uncommon to accept an offer then backtrack when a better offer comes a long.

[smoky quest]

it's a dick move that will burn bridges

[white relic]

it kind of sounds like you're saying just accept the offer because you wouldn't want to make someone feel bad

[smoky quest]

No. It sounds like you may want to make sure they don't feel their effort wasted and be extra appreciative when declining

[low snow]

Honestly when I talked with my manager before I finish the internship I pretty much knew I will get the offer since it seems like he holds a lot of power in deciding if I get an offer or not.

[gilded valley]

I accepted then backed out of an offer after an internship. Company seemed completely fine with it, I have no reason to believe I was blacklisted

[dreamy shadow]

Not really. I would rather not work with a company that would have ego problems like that. As long as you haven't officially started.

[smoky quest]

it's not an issue with ego but ethics and trust.

[dreamy shadow]

Friend had someone actually started for 2 weeks, then quit for a better offer lol.

[low snow]

I want to do this but not sure if they would like that. And yeah since I’m in Japan ethics are doubly important, so don’t want to burn bridges for sure

[white relic]

If there's a number that would make you say yes already, and stop looking in the mean time, there's nothing wrong with telling them that.
(And if they can't make that offer, then politely decline.)

[smoky quest]

Why not? You are young and still have a lot of things to learn and prepare for.
At your age, it's not uncommon to have a hard time projecting and planning 18 months in advance. It's like a year and a half

[low snow]

They haven’t give me the number yet but is asking for competing offers first. Is that normal?

[white relic]

it's a negotiation. You can tell them what number would make you say yes.

It doesn't have to be a competing offer, if it's your yes number, they can either decide to offer it or not

[low snow]

You’re right yeah, I will also consider that route, 18 months is a far far time ahead.

[delicate bane]

i heard they work crazy hours in japan.

[low snow]

Do I just straight up tell them I want this number?

[dreamy shadow]

Some companies will provide an offer and won't budge without a competing offer shown.

[white relic]

I mean, be polite about it, but yeah. To give up all the possible better offers you could get in the next 18 months is a big sacrifice for you.

[low snow]

It’s mostly international, when I work there everyone on my team worked normal hours or even less sometimes. Though I don’t like that it’s not fully remote

[dreamy shadow]

Usually you would give a range, lowest being your highest minimum.

[smoky quest]

For internships and first jobs, I would recommend to aim for on-site as much as possible. It will help learn more about how a company work and teams collaborate, in addition to better mentorship

[low snow]

You’re right yeah. I should also tell them that accepting their offer means giving up other opportunities as well so hopefully they give me a good number. If not I can just push back. Because honestly it’s unlikely other company can offer higher than them, unless I get into Google next year and it’s the only FaAng here that pays better than them. But I don’t like being lowballed either

[low snow]

Thanks for the advice! You’re right I can feel that too, but traveling 1 hour each way seriously takes a toll on my energy level the rest of the day

[smoky quest]

I would refrain from baking assumptions. They haven't given any numbers yet and thus haven't lowballed anyone at this stage. Let's cross the bridge when we get there

[smoky quest]

it can be an opportunity to move and see some new places. Especially if it's short term.
Note that offers may also include some relocation package

[low snow]

They do sadly have a reputation for doing that if you don’t have competing offers. Which is why I was worried in the first place otherwise it would be awesome.

[dreamy shadow]

lmao, in-person dynamics are sometimes odd. I remember going to the downtown office once, and some guy walked past. Someone was like was like "Don't block that person, they're X president of Y department" I was thinking: Wtf? This ain't a zoo or some TV show.

[low snow]

Move huh, I guess it’s also due time for me to move as well but it’s a bit of a pain 🙃

[white relic]

When I had just graduated, I received an offer that was just on the low end of what I was prepared to accept. I had no competing offers. I asked them to raise it 10%. They raised it 6%. 🤷‍♂️
(I accepted)

Sometimes you just have to ask.

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, def never hurts to ask, even they say no sometimes you can get an additional sign on bonus instead.

Apparently our department was trying to hire a senior position, but the finalist candidate didn't accept the offer. So it's back to the drawing board I guess. Not sure if they will send out an offer to the next candidate.

[sleek egret]

maybe your dept needs a new head. I'd be willing to step in

assuming the compensation was vastly inflated, of course

[dreamy shadow]

You can have w/e title you want. Apparently titles don't mean squat here lmao. There's like 5 different titles all reporting at the same level.

[sleek egret]

I'd want the title that the 5 titles report to

[low snow]

Associate Simulation Software Engineer(intern conversion) though I’m not sure about this. Why the associate title?

[sleek egret]

why not?

[low snow]

Idk it just sounds like I’m not even fully employed by the company

[dreamy shadow]

Associate just indicates a junior position. e.g. Associate Data Scientist is same as Junior Data Scientist.

[sleek egret]

I think it does

[white relic]

it's just one of those words that companies put in titles to indicate rank without using numbers. "associate", "principal", "staff", "senior", "junior"

my previous company used to have titles like Engineer I, Engineer II, etc. and then they switched to Associate Engineer, Engineer, Principal Engineer, blah blah blah. Same positions.

[low snow]

Ahh, is that how it works? I usually just hear it called junior so. That makes sense in that case then.

[sleek egret]

there are companies without any titles

everyone is just an "associate"

[dreamy shadow]

Saul Goodman & Associates

[delicate bane]

apple is that you? jk. only when you leave

[sleek egret]

so, which of you wants to be one of the bourgeoisie capitalist exploiter later in life?

[dreamy shadow]

That requires you to have money in the first place.

[sleek egret]

or do you think you'll magically be on the side of the proletariat even after you get rich by starting your own company?

[sleek egret]

no it doesn't

[dreamy shadow]

Uh yea, unless you going to hold people at gun point. Edit: Skyglow LLC does not condone this behavior.

[sleek egret]

let me tell you a little story. a buddy of mine lives in a nice suburb. his neighbor is this guy from the dominican republic. he never finished high school. immigrated on his own with zero $$ to the US as a teen.

he started out working hot dog carts for less than min wage. lived six to a room with other cart pushers. he saved his pennies for a decade or so. then bought his own cart.

today, he runs a business with a few dozen carts, owns a nice house, a few cars, has sent his kids to university.

[brittle thorn]

Yeah IT service corp capital cost can be low

Also the story above people just have to be able to spot opportunities

[sleek egret]

and be willing to sacrifice in the present in order to have a better future. it can be done. it's not easy, but it's possible.

[dreamy shadow]

You mean gamble? There's no guarantee that his own cart would make it.

[delicate bane]

survivorship bias. what about all the other immigrants who had to move back

/didnt make it or worse...

[white relic]

they just didn't have enough hustle /s

[true harness]

what color is his hot dog cart

[brittle thorn]

That's what is missing many want instant job, instant delivery, instant noodles etc

[pine sleet]

?!

[low field]

Hello, I'm a self-taught developer and I want to start applying for jobs, I was wondering if I could post my resume and portfolio here so that people can give me tips and advice?

[spark cobalt]

Sure

[low field]

For my background:

I've spent that past nearly two years teaching myself how to code.

During that time I've managed to get, what I assume at least, a reasonable grip on Python, and actually do some (technically) commissioned on a campaign website.

I just want to "get my foot in the door" to be a software developer. I think any entry level job would be perfect.

I'm was wondering if anyone could take a look at my portfolio and resume and give me some advice on job hunting.

Here is my GitHub profile: https://github.com/nkocodes

And attached is a (very) rough draft of my resume. I've censored my contact information on it for obvious reasons.

[spark cobalt]

Cut this out:

Experience is professional experience.

You need projects. Right now the only representation of your skills is this Campaign which seems to be built with VanillaJS (something that is pretty much never used in the industry) + Flask?

And the one thing representative of your skills doesn't have a link so we can actually see what you built.

I don't like the two column format. Just stick to one column and do something like Jake's Resume: https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs

[low field]

I see. So I should list this project that I've published?
https://github.com/nkocodes/unofficial-pokedex

[spark cobalt]

Ok looking at your campaign website, that is way too simple of a project to put on your resume. Just realized it was on Github. Very little developed structure.

[low field]

So I should take it off of Github?

[pine sleet]

I think to say you're fluent in front-end development you're going to have to learn at least React, at the bare minimum

[spark cobalt]

What kind of development do you want to do?

Managers don't want people with 0 experience. And for people without experience, they have to make it up with some representation of skills via projects + typically a college degree..

[pine sleet]

No, keep it. Github is a great place to document all your projects. In your resume you're currently overemphazing what is, for all intents and purposes, a pretty simple website

[spark cobalt]

You are nowhere near front-end fluent if you've only coded in VanillaJS. That is by far nowhere near representative of what you'd do as a front-end developer.

[low field]

I honestly want to do anything that at least gets my foot in the door. Something very entry level. Front-end or back-end. Doesn't matter.

[pine sleet]

Yeah, but it's very rare you'll find just plain HTML/CSS anywhere in the field

https://roadmap.sh/frontend/ take a look here for a frontend roadmap

[low field]

Ok I won't emphasize the front-end much. Just focus on working with the client.

[pine sleet]

Yup, that's great. Working with clients is an important skill

But I think your primary goal right now should be exploring more technologies and getting a bit more versed with them

[spark cobalt]

I would split your Experience into Projects and Experience.

[low field]

My plan was to apply to entry level or even intern level jobs not just around the area, but across the country. I just want to get "my foot in the door". Is that a realistic possibility for me?

[pine sleet]

Sure. But unfortunately even just getting your foot in the door can have a high bar to entry sometimes

[low field]

I also was going to focus on open source project from here on out.

[spark cobalt]

I did this path without a degree at all, am 18 right now. And my projects were a lot more sophisticated, 2/3 of my projects having MAU, than yours.

[pine sleet]

Open source is excellent. It shows you know how to work in a team using tools like Git (which will most certainly be used wherever you go)

[low field]

"MAU"?

[pine sleet]

Monthly active users IIRC

[spark cobalt]

Getting a job was still a tremendous effort, more than the actual learning process itself was for me. Monthly Active Users.

I applied to 4000 jobs to get 2 job offers.

[pine sleet]

A formal education is unfortunately one of the most important things that can give you an edge
See the latest pin in this channel for more info on that

[low field]

I see. What and where would you recommend that I apply for?

[spark cobalt]

That's all there is to apply to.

[pine sleet]

That is heavily dependant on your circumstances
Can't really tell you without knowing a lot more information 😛

Apply to whatever you think is best. Can't hurt going overboard

[dreamy shadow]

Microsoft laying off 5% (11k)

[spark cobalt]

Either way, you have to realize that someone of your position is a huge risk for a manager. You need to build projects compelling enough to the point a manager will consider you at least competitive to other new grads.

[low field]

So what would you all recommend that I do from here on out?

[spark cobalt]

Stick to a single niche of the industry, build that out very well.

[pine sleet]

Work on more projects, build up your skills in technologies that are actually used in the industry

[spark cobalt]

Your Pokedex is impressive, but the technologies used for it isn't widely used in the industry, probably not at all. (Idk how big/complex it is, but it looks from the front better than other Pokedexes I've seen)

[pine sleet]

Open source work is a great place to get started.
It's much easier to teach someone how to code than to teach someone to work well in a team.
Build out your teamwork and communication skills, the rest can be trained or learnt easily

[low field]

What's the best way to get involved in open source projects?

[spark cobalt]

Yep. Especially as a self taught, your behavioral matters a fuck ton.

[pine sleet]

!contribute we've got some right here 🙂

[inner wren]

Contribute to Python Discord's Open Source Projects
Looking to contribute to Open Source Projects for the first time? Want to add a feature or fix a bug on the bots on this server? We have on-going projects that people can contribute to, even if you've never contributed to open source before!

Projects to Contribute to
• Sir Lancebot - our fun, beginner-friendly bot
• Python - our utility & moderation bot
• Site - resources, guides, and more

Where to start

1. Read our contribution guide
2. Chat with us in #dev-contrib if you're ready to jump in or have any questions
3. Open an issue or ask to be assigned to an issue to work on

[low field]

Which industry do you recommend?

[spark cobalt]

Stalk CS students on LinkedIn by searching CS @ in the search bar, and then go through their profiles. Very common for CS students to put their open source efforts in their experience section.

Or yes, that ^

[low field]

Dumb question but do these open source projects/contributions take a lot of time? I'm not trying to rush, just curious.

[spark cobalt]

Any project/effort worth mentioning should take time.

[pine sleet]

It may or it may not. If it doesn't then it's probably not worth doing 🙂

[spark cobalt]

Different open source projects have different requirements. I wouldn't put an open source project where you did documentation fixes, but put one where you implemented new features.

[low field]

Oh I know, I'm not imagining a few weeks. I just wonder typically how much time.

[spark cobalt]

That's very dependent on your technical capabilities and what the demands are.

[pine sleet]

You'll want to consistently contribute over the course of months or even years
At that point you'll probably be inducted as a triager or a co-maintainer which looks very impressive

[spark cobalt]

It can range from somewhere like a week to couple months.

[pine sleet]

Companies would rather see you consistently contribute to a few repositories rather than contribute once every now and then to 20 different repos
Quality over quantity

[spark cobalt]

For you, probably would take more on the longer end, because you didn't really code using technologies used that often in the industry.

You would end up having to do a lot of preliminary research before contributing.

[low field]

So what I have so far:

1. Fix Resume by combining Projects/Experience.


2. Open Source Projects (try Python Discord)

I guess my final question is what type of things do you recommend that I specialize in? What's "hot" in the market now or seems best from my experience?

[balmy spade]

Specialize in what you find interesting.

[spark cobalt]

I think you should just take a step back, look at what you actually want to do in the industry. Assess if it's plausible (being a researcher is less plausible than being a web developer.) If you wanted to do research, go back to college.

Then study what frameworks and technologies are actually used for this industry. Get comfortable with technologies and relevant things there and build projects within that empire.

[brittle thorn]

Why not try freelance while you build your skills

[low field]

That's basically what the website was. What's the best way to Freelance?

[low field]

I like working with UX and UI development honestly. That's the most fun to me.

[brittle thorn]

Select your niche

[spark cobalt]

You likely won't be able to compete in the online atmosphere. Try locally with small businesses, etc.

[brittle thorn]

And network

[low field]

I guess this goes to my next question, how do I "network"?

[brittle thorn]

Meetups

[pine sleet]

I'm kind of also looking to freelance (mostly because I'm bored, I have way too much time on my hands recently)
But I'm also kind of scared to just "solo" it.
Is there some middleground here? Lol

[spark cobalt]

https://roadmap.sh/frontend/

Get comfortable with everything above the bottom 5 steps. Or at least express knowledge of that general step somewhere in your projects.

[brittle thorn]

Join a startup then negotiate with founders lmao

[pine sleet]

That seems like a pain

[brittle thorn]

Not if they are friends

[low field]

Would conventions (Like Python convention) b e a good start?

[spark cobalt]

If you're trying to be a frontend devleoper, no. Well, yes it's better than nothing. But go to something more related.

React has conferences and events all the time. I'm sure JavaScript has some confuckerence as well

[low field]

How's the job market for front-end? Is it worse than back-end?

[brittle thorn]

Maybe attend as many meetups as you can cast a wide net

[spark cobalt]

How the job market will be for you is relative to your degree, your displayal of understanding of technologies, and your prior experience.

[brittle thorn]

Especially if you are just starting

[pine sleet]

If you're going for frontend developer, you'll probably need to know quite a bit more than just React
React, Vue, Svelte and Angular are pretty popular in the industry
As well as metaframeworks like Next.js (my personal favourite ), Nuxt.js, and SvelteKit

[spark cobalt]

Just stick to React. Most popular.

[low field]

Is me only having a Psychology Degree that much of a negative? I mean at least it's some degree, or that doesn't make a difference at all?

[spark cobalt]

It's better than no degree.

[pine sleet]

I don't hear great things about it.
Apparently it's oversaturated but also quite brutal, since there's a low bar to entry and everyone and their mother wants to do 🌈 ✨ Web Development ✨ 🌈

[low field]

So like what a 50% penalty instead of 100%?

[spark cobalt]

Lots of people applying are just not good web developers either.

[brittle thorn]

I got a Chemistry Degree managed to transition to IT

[low field]

What market isn't oversaturated and quite brutal?