career-advice

[undone tendon]

Then go to the interships what do you think

[white relic]

Internships for freshmen aren't very common, and for many of them you would likely have applied already. So if that's your plan for the summer, you should have a fallback

[undone tendon]

I applied to like 3 of them

But I think I should do more

[white relic]

go for it

[undone tendon]

Where can I look for them

[white relic]

next year maybe start a little earlier

[undone tendon]

Oh I good websites where I can look for them

[white relic]

your university should have a career center or something like that, which would be a good place to start

there probably are websites for finding internships specifically, but idk what they are

[undone tendon]

Oh ok

[hearty island]

joined a pmp cert discord server for advice wish me luck

[fallow tusk]

Hello
Im applying to this junior python role i got the initial interview and then some kind of process where fill up a form like my ideal slary if i can do wfh kind of stuff after that they gave me an assessment where ill try the challenge and i submitted it now how long do i wait for the technical interview? Or how long without response that could mean im out?

[near ocean]

You should follow up today and in a couple of days
Today to let them know that you've submitted your assessment so they can keep an eye out and it doesnt fall through the cracks
In a couple of days if they dont get back to you to chase it up in case they forget

[delicate bane]

good luck

[near ocean]

Something really short like
Dear Mr/Mrs,
I've just submitted my solutions to the online assessment.
Looking forward to discussing it further with the team.
Thanks,
<your name>

[fallow tusk]

Well they already confirmed they know i submitted my assessment thru email

[near ocean]

Is the response automated? If yes, you should confirm with a person, if not then you can say thanks for the opportunity and mention the next step

[fallow tusk]

I probably messed up
My email is informal

[deft berry]

they pay the minimal possible

unless you're executive from the company or have some part of it

[fallow tusk]

How do i say this formal?

[near ocean]

Dear Mr/Mrs,
Thanks for the opportunity, looking forward to discussing my solutions in person.
Thanks,
<name>

It doesnt have to be very long or very formal, assuming you've talked to this person before

[fallow tusk]

Oh nice tysm

[twin crane]

hello, i wanna be a web dev, but cuz i was a fool in programming, i learnt python.

i'm wondering if it is practical to use dijango/flask for web dev
or just learn JS

also i already have HTML and CSS in my pocket

[brittle radish]

Both of them are necessary skills (Django and Flask) for any web developer.

[near ocean]

The only thing necessary in web dev is javascript
But you can have your backend in whatever language you want, python is a popular one

[twin crane]

isn't JS enough for backend

or do you mean python for data science or AI in the website?

[karmic sail]

dont worry about this, you have surely learned a lot of fundamental programming knowledge that will carryover if you choose to pursure Javascript further for example

[lapis wind]

So the reality is that one language will probably not get you very far, rather than going "should I learn just X or go learn Y" the answer is pretty much always you need to know both.

It's definitely not uncommon to have pure JS (or more realistically TS) websites doing frontend and backend, but there are equally more web dev positions using a range of languages for things, JavaScript for frontend sure, but then Java, C#, Python are also really popular backend languages which bring a lot of utility, sometime utility which JavaScript doesn't have.

[twin crane]

I know that python alone can't do the minimal, I was worried that python isn't practical or useful in this realm which mean the last 4 months went in vain,
it's a relief to know otherwise

so i think know i will start JS and TS and then work my way up to databases and other web dev fundamentals

you think it is a good plan ?

[tepid shale]

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/05/heres-how-much-top-tech-jobs-in-california-pay-according-to-job-ads.html

california law now requires any employer with over 15 people to post the salary/hourly amount for a job listing. finally we can see what python devs are being swooned for across california

[delicate bane]

to quote mariosis: #career-advice message

in all seriousness, i think this a step in a positive direction. however, if there are loopholes, it is usually in a company's best interest to take advantage of said loopholes

[tepid shale]

no im actually seeing some proper hourly rates on the recruiter job posts

[delicate bane]

thats good!

[tepid shale]

this should lift rates by having everyone demand market rates adn not be low balled out of ignorance

[delicate bane]

agreed. i think we may see a trend of more states adopting similar laws possibly

i think this will help junior devs the most since they are usually the ones with the least leverage in a negotiation

[tepid shale]

yes thats very true. and we need to wait a bit more until a legit 'glass door salary survey' is done to have true market rates

[gilded valley]

I could look into it myself, but what does the law say about discretionary bonuses

[hearty island]

my internship wants to pay for a lean six sigma yellow belt cert

[buoyant seal]

it sounds like some kind of kung fu stuff

[hearty island]

it’s some project management thing i also asked the ceo if he’d consider paying for my PMP cert when i become full time

https://www.6sigmacertificationonline.com/lean-six-sigma-yellow-belt-certification/?gclid=CjwKCAiAqt-dBhBcEiwATw-ggOqKXWyMpyMQQOvtvkulAf2eA18ATFwopvLIIe0R_lys4KZqlESE-BoCNUYQAvD_BwE

this is what i was talking about ^

[leaden jasper]

If they're willing to pay, go for it. I kind of find the lean six thing to be a bit overhyped and kinda bullshitty, but it's still helpful if you're wanting to go into the project management role stuff

[hearty island]

apparently the ceo had it on his resume so he thought it would look good on mine too. i’d prefer them paying for my pmp cert instead

but it seemed like he was ok doing that after i become full time for them … this may be awkward bc i’m leaving for the summer for another company

maybe i can push some kind of deal to come back

[peak torrent]

what institute are you planning to get it? if dont mind asking

[hearty island]

SSGI

[delicate bane]

hes gonna want you there for the summer lol

[hearty island]

😭😭😭

[delicate bane]

oh wells

idk how you wanna navigate that. seems like it might be awk either way

[hearty island]

someone’s gonna be really upset

[open flame]

[hearty island]

and that someone will probably be me 😃

[delicate bane]

mood

[hearty island]

i mean if they like me so much they can just be like look after august just come back and work with us

and we’ll hire you full time and pay for your stupid PMP

[delicate bane]

this is true

[hearty island]

there’s nothing wrong with me wanting a different experience

[delicate bane]

i agree. i think you should do whats best for you

and who knows maybe that other company will provide a much better experience

[hearty island]

yeah this internship was frankly bullshit for the first 3 months until my mentor left

and then all of a sudden a new mentor stepped in and all these projects got dumped on my plate

[delicate bane]

oooof

[hearty island]

so i think they would understand if i wanted to leave

they should’ve been more serious about me from the start

[vapid jay]

Hello guys

General question if someone learns to code using python, what job can you land as a junior dev and what would you be doing exactly let's say you chose to learn python django too

[gritty rivet]

There is basically no job for which Python is the one and only skill required. But if you search job listings in your area, you should be able to get a sense of what's out there... Python heavy jobs tend to be data analysis or backend web stuff

[vapid jay]

this is what you need right now

I dont know why everyone doesent want to be an engineer right now

[tropic wave]

anyone free to vc and help with my pi pico

[vapid jay]

if you ask kids in America what they want to be when they grow up you get: football, vlogger/Youtuber, athlete but if you ask kids in china what they want to be you get: Engineer, Scientist, Astronaut, inventor way different

in terms of career... we are setting america up for failure

thats all I have to say

https://www.businessinsider.com/american-kids-dream-of-being-youtube-influencers-instead-of-astronauts-2019-7?op=1

if the career choices of kids are fundamentally different in these countries its definitely going to have a drastic outcome in the future

that we will be seeing in the next 10-20 years

[gray yoke]

Hey! I just finished an introduction to python what do you guys recommend I do next?

[vapid jay]

Learn data structures and algorithms

[vapid jay]

build a project, Solve Leetcode questions online

[fringe pine]

Perhaps work on a small project of some kind?

[gray yoke]

What kind of projects do you guys recommend?

[vapid jay]

also it couldnt hurt to learn some basic HTML and CSS, these are extremely easy to learn and only takes 5 hours MAX to get the basics down

[vapid jay]

make a video game, start with video game development because thats probably the best way to learn coding fundamentals

[fringe pine]

Maybe a utility that automates some task that you perform on a regular basis for work/school?

The best projects are ones that you/others actually use.

[vapid jay]

if you can make a basic video game that has points, health, items, damage bars, health bars and NPC enemy characters you probably know 90% of the syntax and fundamentals involved to code a website and create production level code

[fringe pine]

A small game (maybe just text based in the terminal) can also be a good first project.

[vapid jay]

yeah I would suggest you avoid the graphics and design for video games because that wouldnt help you learn to code at all

[gray yoke]

Can I make that with only python or would it need to include some other languages?

[vapid jay]

you can use any language

[gray yoke]

I would try to make a program that would shuffle my notes and ask me questions about it to help me memorize.

[fringe pine]

Building a small GUI app might be fun. Here's a tutorial you could follow: https://realpython.com/python-gui-tkinter/

[fringe pine]

Yeah that sounds like a nice idea!

Like some kind of flash card app?

[vapid jay]

but overall @gray yoke it depends if you want to go for backend or frontend because those are two different things. For frontend I think the best way to hone your skills via projects would be creating a website but for backend it can get a lot more complicated than just that

[gray yoke]

Ok so what order should I do your ideas in? Like learning data structures and algorithm, creating a game, and learning the basics of other langauges?

[vapid jay]

Learn data structures and algorihthms FIRST

then projects.. making video games etcetera

this should take 3-6 months to do

[fringe pine]

Personally, I would do a small project now to cement what I've learned so far.

[gray yoke]

Yeah basically. Another idea I thought of was kinda making something like google translate (This is for a long-term project)

[gray yoke]

What website would you recommend for this? What I have been using is courses from edx.org

[vapid jay]

youtube

you can just youtube everything nowadays

and its not that hard to learn, the only reason you HAVE to learn data structs and algos is to pass the coding interview, otherwise if your just coding for fun you dont need to learn it

its not fundamentally important part of coding

[fringe pine]

YouTube is really a mixed bag. There's some good quality learning content on YouTube, but also a large amount of low quality content.

We do have some resource recommendations on our website: https://www.pythondiscord.com/resources/

[vapid jay]

only follow the youtube channels with 5+ million subscribers, that will help get rid of all the shit

[fringe pine]

I'm not sure this is really true. Popularity doesn't equal quality.

[vapid jay]

I mean ive never seen a youtube channel with millions of subscribers that consistently posts low quality content

for coding at least

[fringe pine]

Also I find that the better produced videos are (e.g. slick animations), often the poorer the quality of the actual information content is.

The videos with the best information are often low-resolution recordings of university lectures 😄

[vapid jay]

yeah it is a bitch to try to sort through crappy youtube tutorials

but once you have even an iota of understanding of computer science it makes it a million times easier

[gray yoke]

I've found that Geogia tech has a free course on data structure and algorithms. I might use that course to learn about it or is youtube a better way?

[vapid jay]

there is no better way

[near ocean]

Youtube is pretty much the worst way to learn anything

[fringe pine]

I would go with the course. It will be more structured than random videos (with readings, quizes, exercises, etc.)

[smoky quest]

I would also recommend a book https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Algorithms-fourth-Thomas-Cormen/dp/026204630X/

[gray yoke]

Only bad part is that its a 5 months course with 9-10 hours a week. But I'll still do it anyway

[vapid jay]

just go for it

[gray yoke]

Alright

[vapid jay]

as long as you are consistently learning it doesent matter

[near ocean]

This is a brick book, wouldnt recommend to beginners really

[smoky quest]

If they are that shallow that the size of a book would stop them, they will have bigger problems anyway

[fringe pine]

Although I do still recommend doing the project first. You may find it hard to stay motivated if you aren't putting what you've learned to use.

[near ocean]

Its not just the size, its just very dense

[true harness]

it's not about the length. it's just not really meant to be read like a novel. it's a textbook

[near ocean]

Its great to refer to but i wouldnt exactly study it to learn

[fringe pine]

It is a great book, but it does require a bit of mathematical maturity, I think.

[vapid jay]

just learn Data structures & Algorithms, Learn basic syntax for your language (for loops, while, if/else, True/false, variables, const) and then learn how to make a website or app with your knowledge with tutorials and get so good at it that you can make a software without having to use tutorials.

I think thats really it, but 99% of professional coders are crap at coding and get most of their code from Stackoverflow, reddit and quora so dont get to scared about it if you dont know how to code after 3-6 months

[smoky quest]

The paragraphs are pretty clear and take their time to cover the topics.
I haven't found a better book for someone looking for a career

[near ocean]

This is not true

[vapid jay]

and nowadays you can just use chatgpt

[gray yoke]

When should I learn the basics of other languages? Should I do it after learning data structures?

[true harness]

not really

[vapid jay]

you can USE it, I never said it can replace it

[near ocean]

Chatgpt should be a bannable mention

[true harness]

that's what "just" means

[vapid jay]

you can use it for a lot of things not just to create code for you but to understand and breakdown that code explain it to a beginner

[near ocean]

Except when it does so badly or just straight up incorrectly and beginners cant even tell

[spark cobalt]

Probably whenever you need to learn other languages to pursue whatever niche in programming you wanna explore.

[fringe pine]

@gray yoke What are your long term goals when it comes to programming?

If you don't have any, and you just want to learn it for fun, that's fine too 😄

[spark cobalt]

You can always use Python to explore, and if something captures your interest then can learn the language often used in that niche

[spark cobalt]

It's annoying yeah

Someone should just make a pin for the ChatGPT stuff, then everytime someone mentions ChatGPT they get told to look at pins

Or make a ChatGPT command

[gray yoke]

Get a job that’s about it… and I wanted to make some games. Also it’s fun learning it

[vapid jay]

are you in college for computer science or are you going to do a bootcamp or self learn?

[gray yoke]

Self learning I’m in high school right now

[vapid jay]

its much much easier to get a job when you go to college, employers like basically bin all non degrees applicants

[vapid jay]

its still possible its just extremely hard, I suggest you build a portfolio of complex and unique projects that can help your resume stand out

you have to come up with that idea yourself

and it also depends on your location

Just read this: #career-advice message

[gray yoke]

Ok thank you guys!

[vapid jay]

Have fun!

[mortal wedge]

I had a novel problem the other day and was discussing it with a colleague. After a few hours I managed to solve it. They put the problem into chat GPT and it wasn't just incorrect, it was hilariously and wildly incorrect but said it with 100% confidence. It really torpedoed my confidence in it, haha. It really is just a chat extrapolation tool and seems to be fairly useless on anything that it wasn't trained explicitly on.

I would be a lot more okay with it if it came with a confidence metric. I think it's an incredible invention and is superb at making a chat interface feel a lot more like a human, but I do have a problem when people try to rely on it for like.... most things that you can't get a quick answer from google on

[tepid shale]

chat GPT is the first $29 Billion Dollar python framework ever monitized
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/openai-the-company-behind-chatgpt-in-talks-for-tender-offer-that-would-give-it-29-billion-valuation-report-11672953025

So when is the open source competitor coming out?

[mortal wedge]

What's your point? First of all, I can come up with anything and claim whatever valuation I want. As I've said, I think it's incredible for what it is, but people don't seem to understand what it isn't.

[north kestrel]

@limber jungle

[limber jungle]

😂😂how did u find here

[north kestrel]

I'm engineer too

[limber jungle]

🥹ofc

[north kestrel]

[near ocean]

hello, this isnt the place to chit chat, please take casual convos to off topic channels

[spark cobalt]

It scares me how many of these ChatGPT overhypers in the industry are implementing all sorts of false positives into their code.

Or maybe they're just lying....

[spark cobalt]

Severe overvaluation.

It's trendy so going for high valuation but not worth that much in reality.

30b is just funny

Probably gunning to get bought by Google cuz of all the shit about ChatGPT replacing Google.

[graceful mason]

I hope that nobody in the industry is using ChatGPT. I definitely wouldn't let it past a code review

[spark cobalt]

But just because Google can afford it doesn't make this still a severe overvaluation.

[true harness]

they wouldn't use chatgpt to outright produce code. they would use it to replace boilerplate

[spark cobalt]

I saw something on LinkedIn where people (plants) trying to spread shit about how Bing is gonna be better than Google cuz Bing plans to do some shit with ChatGPT. I'm like

This is all just a shitty joke lmao. Belongs in a comedy club.

[white relic]

Recently (last 5 years perhaps) I feel like Google search has gotten so dilute with crap, I often get better results from duckduckgo
And I did not see that coming

[spark cobalt]

Good point.

[dreamy shadow]

Google search has seriously gone down. If you search for exact terms, it'll ignore your search and give you results for w/e it deemed you were searching for.

[spark cobalt]

Experienced better results on DDG as well

I'm so entrapped in the Google environment lol. Google Pixel, Google everything

[thorny sphinx]

Really maybe it’s because I’ve not been thinking about it but I haven’t felt that this is the case. Especially since 99% people most of the time go for the first result which is the relevant one

[white relic]

eh, the first result is often some terrible geeks4geeks page or whatever

[dreamy shadow]

The most annoying thing I've seen is in google maps.
Google nearest Walmart

Gives ad to Target that's actually further away as first result.

Does the same if you look for menards, it'll give you home depot or lowes.

[white relic]

Part of the problem though is also that everybody's Google results are different, so you might get better results than I do because of location or because they've been mining you for more data for longer

[dreamy shadow]

Only thing I use google now is for youtube. No choice there.

[spark cobalt]

Still Google for everything except DDG on my phone. Still use Google on my PCs.

[dreamy shadow]

Bank, anything important I already moved to protonmail. I get my [e-mail] domain.

[spark cobalt]

What's the difference? Or, what was the motivation to move there?

[dreamy shadow]

Protonmail app doesn't pretend ads are part of your inbox.

[spark cobalt]

Maybe I don't notice it but I haven't seen ads in my inbox in a long time.

[dreamy shadow]

It's not in the inbox, but still part of dark design. W/e it's called.

[spark cobalt]

Oh they're all in the Promotions tab for me. Yeah never noticed cuz never went there

[dreamy shadow]

I still use google search though. Duckduckgo still lacks in some aspects

Also, make sure you turn off browser geolocation if you ever use a VPN. Geolocation will absolutely leak your location.

[white relic]

It's definitely not every search. Google still seems to be better when looking for something specific

[dreamy shadow]

It's because it inferences what you searched before. If you type: Microsoft stock, apple stock. You open a another search and type tesla, it'll suggest: "Did you mean Tesla stock?"

[lapis wind]

(this is a career channel)

[tepid shale]

who wants to start a glorious startup

guess that answers that

[peak halo]

were you expecting a bunch of people to just commit to joining a business venture with you?

[tepid shale]

not with that attitude

[near ocean]

This isnt a shitposting channel, and this pretty much conflicts with the recruitment rule

[peak halo]

my point is that asking "who wants to start a startup", without any other information, in a Discord server isn't a viable recruitment strategy. But we don't allow recruitment anyway.

[limber jungle]

[dreamy shadow]

In other news for career discussion, I GOT ACCEPTED INTO MY MASTERS PROGRAM!!!

[spark cobalt]

Sky senpai

[vapid jay]

Congrats, @dreamy shadow !

[delicate bane]

grats dude

now you dont have to worry about the austin program

[dreamy shadow]

HAHA, those two additional rough drafts RIGHT INTO RECYCLING BIN

[quasi axle]

Is python actually more difficult for interviews than TS and C++? Those languages have an api or library that can easily be called to solve problems, whereas it seems you need to implement things like a hash map from scratch in python

[true harness]

dict? python is missing some data structures but a hashmap isn't one of them

[quasi axle]

Ah, that’s what I get for only checking the first link on google

When you look up “hash map in python” the first result doesn’t use dict lol

[quasi axle]

What data structures is it missing?

[true harness]

bbst

[vapid jay]

Hello, I am Zan currently 15 years of age and learning python and looking to learn C# next. I feel very conflicted at the moment because my siblings say I need to get a job and car and stuff in order to get a job as a software programmer, they say that I need experience and need to able to apply skills I've learned and worked with people. I understand that and I am also working on getting my drivers permit but the main thing I am conflicted about is the scenario; "If I've spent years and years working with others online, either it is a project, challenge and so forth and I've made an online presence where people can see for themselves skills I've applied with working with others, how can that not possibly qualify me in some aspect for a job in the future?"

[true harness]

you certainly don't need a car or prior work experience to get a software engineering job, however prior work experience, even if it's fast food or similar, will be beneficial.

if your online experience is something like contributing to open source, you might be able to put that on your resume, but just saying you've gained skills online isn't very concrete

[pine sleet]

Now let's see if I get accepted into GT at all...

[vapid jay]

My parents had gotten me premium on codecademy recently and ive been following courses on there but since i was 13/14 I've been very interested in technology/programming. I understand basic syntax like datatypes, functions, variables and I'm improving my skills on how to actually write the scripts and what not. My point is if I've contributed not limited it to but open source projects, made my own projects, worked with others on challenges and what not, I could put more than that on my resume, something that shows I can apply my knowledge of programming after years, wouldnt that be atleast a bit more than concrete? Well I all wanted was some clarification on my confliction and you assisted me with that. But I'm still not sure if I can take your word for granted for reasons

[thorny sphinx]

The best path is STEM degree + Internship —> job

Lots of places expect a degree.

Online contributions to open source/side projects would help getting the internship/first job

[vapid jay]

To be honest I've been struggling with math recently

?

[thorny sphinx]

Normal to struggle with math at high school I did... don’t give up. Embrace growth mindset, and make the most of any good teachers/resources

[dreamy shadow]

Do the micromasters, helps a lot with getting in.

[vapid jay]

I appreciate the insight I think where stuff went wrong was at middle school tbh

[pine sleet]

I've already applied unfortunately
Should be back within a month or so
Hopefully I do get in as it's my choice school

Applied early decision too 🥴

What's a micromaster BTW? I just applied for a master's in electrical engineering and a minor in computer science

[thorny sphinx]

Worth sitting down with your teacher/tutor/family, check that you understand the basics of high school math and then work up where you need to be

[delicate bane]

[vapid jay]

Noted, I'm a bit concerned though because Im going back to school after being on winter break in 5 days...

[delicate bane]

hehe

[dreamy shadow]

It's their online course (Mooc). Basicly proof that you can succeed in the program.

[pine sleet]

Ah, is that what you're doing?

[dreamy shadow]

It's what I did before applying. And you can get credit for the courses you have taken when you get in given you did well enough.

Only really works for their online programs though, omcs and omsa

[somber sundial]

how likely is that chatgpt3 will make coding obsolete within the next three years? specially python jobs

[pine sleet]

0%

ChatGPT is pretty garbage as it stands right now
I don't see AI replacing programmers at all within the next century

[somber sundial]

ok for now, but the next version will be scary better!! i mean chatgpt3 create me diet plan and exercise routine within second and playing around with it is amazing

[somber sundial]

are you at all impressed by it?

[near ocean]

Sure its cool as a toy, thats about it

Im more impressed at civ5 deity mode owning my ass 130 turns in really

[pine sleet]

Nope

[true harness]

made my own projects, worked with others on challenges and what not, I could put more than that on my resume
yes, these are very good to have on your resume if you don't have work experience

But I'm still not sure if I can take your word for granted for reasons
that's fair enough. you should wait/repost for more experienced people to answer, though i think they'll say the same things

[somber sundial]

what functionality would have to be presented for you to be impressed?
i mean the other day i give it a flickr URL and it looked at an image and told me what it was, it was a python gui and it told me what was wrong with my code from the picture!!
(URL feature is not disabled, or at least it is not working for me)
i did not show it the code!!

[true harness]

if the claim is that it will take python programmer jobs, then i would be impressed if it could take python programmer jobs

[near ocean]

This isnt career related, you can carry on in the offtopic channels

[spark cobalt]

There's 60 year olds at my company that bike 10 miles to work everyday.

You're young, you can do it too.

[smoky quest]

At your age:

• Aim for a CS degree. That's the path of least resistance and most opportunities
• Have fun and build things. Make robots, websites, backend, ML/AI, or even movies with blender.

[pine sleet]

Accurate code

[harsh river]

being able to admit it's wrong without being prompted to do so

[undone tendon]

Do I still make a resume even if I don’t any job experience for internships

[vapid jay]

Yes. You have experience in something.

[undone tendon]

I mean I work a part time job

[vapid jay]

Well, there you go, experience.

[undone tendon]

Ok I’ll make one

[vapid jay]

Remember, resumes are made to fit the description of the internship and/or job.

[true harness]

if you're going to apply to something, you need a resume

[undone tendon]

So does the template that I use matter

[smoky quest]

your education and projects do matter

[hearty island]

jake’s template is a good template to use

[vapid jay]

Who's jake?

[cerulean path]

can i get a job at 14 lol

[vapid jay]

A template just means how something will be organized on a piece of paper, it does not mean the 'content'

[vapid jay]

Sure, if you want to work for a family member, yes.

[undone tendon]

I jus started learning python

[cerulean path]

no i mean like apply and get my own salary

just like any adult

[undone tendon]

Imma college freshman

[cerulean path]

i'm still in middle school

[undone tendon]

So I don’t have projects

[true harness]

why don't you have projects?

[cerulean path]

because he'll make so many he's gonna give up

[true harness]

generally, no

[undone tendon]

I started learning python like 3 weeks ago

[vapid jay]

Of course you can. If you want the company that hires you to get sued for breaking a bunch of child labor laws. Go ahead.

[undone tendon]

Switched to a compci major

[cerulean path]

yeah i mean who would recruit a 14 year old who pretends they know how to center a div

[pine sleet]

A lot of jobs require at least a high school diploma

[cerulean path]

well no in my country it is legal to have a job after 14 years old

with parental or tutor consent ofc until 16

[pine sleet]

But the employability of someone as young as 14 is questionable at best, especially in a field like IT

Not trying to put you down of course - but you've got plenty of time to sharpen your skills and make connections with people

[cerulean path]

well i learned too much stuff idk what to specialize in

[undone tendon]

So do y’all think I can still get an internship with no projects

[true harness]

if you have no projects, no work experience, what are you going to put on your resume?

[undone tendon]

I can learn python in 4 months while doing college

[cerulean path]

i learned 4 months without doing college

[undone tendon]

I’ve worked part time jobs

[cerulean path]

this reminds me of summer jobs my parents made me do

[true harness]

but those don't show you have relevant programming skills

[vapid jay]

If its legal then getting a job is easy.

Just depends on how much you are willing to commit and be responsible.

[cerulean path]

well uh i defienetly don't need the shit school teaches me so yessir

[undone tendon]

So should I not make a resume

[true harness]

how are you going to apply without a resume

[vapid jay]

A resume is important especially if you never made one before. Making one will provide you a good amount of self reflection.

[undone tendon]

So should I first make a project then do a resume

[cerulean path]

i always imagine interviews like my employer will just ask me to code something in front of him

[vapid jay]

Here's a freebie.

How do you define customer service?

[undone tendon]

So how do freshman’s apple for interships when they no experience programming or coding

I’m 2 programming classes this semester

[cerulean path]

someone who tells me exactly how to fix my problem otherwise i cry

[true harness]

they have programming experience

[cerulean path]

they teach us excel in school 💀

[vapid jay]

I probably wouldn't say that in an interview. But of course it depends on where it is..

[undone tendon]

So if I can build a project in the 3 days and put it on there I’ll be good

[white relic]

In what kind of interview did that come up?

[cerulean path]

build a project related to your job

[true harness]

sure. though i would start making a resume now if you intend to apply to internships

[vapid jay]

Its just an example. But customer service is essential in any position.

[undone tendon]

What should I put for skills

[true harness]

skills

[vapid jay]

Read the job description and copy and paste.

[white relic]

if someone asked me to define customer service in an interview, the interview would be over

[true harness]

seems out of place for anything IT related, tbh

[vapid jay]

You don't have an opinion on that? You must be too far into your career for it to matter then...

[cerulean path]

i can't imagine how much support workers have to suffe

[white relic]

I mean, you're not wrong, but that's just a weird question

[cerulean path]

having to deal with annoying customers and people who don't understand anything about the stuff they're doing

[white relic]

Some students put the courses they are taking / have taken on there to fill in the blank space.
Relevant courses, not just your whole semester schedule

[cerulean path]

does freecodecamp count

[white relic]

count as what?

[cerulean path]

a relevant course

[white relic]

depends on what job you're applying to, I suppose

[pine sleet]

Nothing is stopping you from putting it on your resume but it probably doesn't have much value

[white relic]

if you're asking whether you can put it on your resume if you have nothing else, yes, it's something, but it's not much

[hearty island]

https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs

[pine sleet]

At least, not compared to official higher education (which is probably one of the more important things employers look at)

[white relic]

It's your resume, anything you have done is fair game to put on there.

but yes, freecodecamp wouldn't carry as much weight as a real course.

[cerulean path]

i don't have a resume yet

[pine sleet]

I don't either

[true harness]

you should make one and update as you go along. every time you do something cool you should think about if it should go on your resume. my middle school made me make one when i was in 6th grade

[pine sleet]

And I'm off to college in a semester 🥴
I don't have much to put on there but projects (since that's really the only thing I've been doing)

[peak halo]

if you're doing your resume with latex, it's also easy to version with git

[cerulean path]

theres 6 grades in middle school???

[pine sleet]

6th grade is typically the first grade in middle school
6th-8th is often how it is in the US

[cerulean path]

oh

well i call it first middle school grade

[true harness]

yeah it's kinda weird. the us has grades 1-12. grades 1-5 (sometimes only 4) are "elementary school", grades 6 (sometimes 5) - 8 are "middle school" or "junior high", 9-12 is high school

[pine sleet]

If you're 14 and in the US you must be a ... freshman, IIRC?

[spark cobalt]

There's a reason why it's free. The courses are typically taught by people with limited experience in tech, and also the courses themselves get very shallow. Most courses can be done within an hour for anyone that's been coding for like at least a year.

On top of some questionable practices and usefulness of some of the courses. @whoever

If you look at the people behind the courses, they have like a page of all the teachers, nearly all of them never boasts any sort of years of experience in the field, or boasts any kind of credibility their words may have.

Which, not only shows that they're kind of out of touch from the industry in a social aspect, but should seriously make you question everything they're teaching.

[pine sleet]

One of the best ways to guarantee landing yourself a job is to go through university and obtain a degree (at least a bachelors)

[spark cobalt]

It may be good to learn the bare basics of subjects, but past that fCC shouldn't be used or trusted beyond the most basics

[pine sleet]

These online courses like freecodecamp are poor substitutes for higher education at a university

[spark cobalt]

But at that point, there's so many better resources for beginner stuff as well

[undone tendon]

Question if building a project hard?

[true harness]

depends on everything

[spark cobalt]

If it was easy, then you're likely not challenging yourself enough or choosing something that may not be worth your time doing. (Or you're in tutorial hell)

Holy fuck Discord mobile is glitchy as shit

[brittle thorn]

It maybe easier to make up a course than to make a project that makes money....lmao

All the demand for training is instant market

But making a great course curriculum that works is hard

[spark cobalt]

It's really just insulting. Someone the other day sent like 3 Django Udemy courses and asked if they were any good. All of them had hundreds of thousands of students. All of the authors had 0 professional experience AND didn't mention anywhere about DRF, pretty much the only thing Django is used for

People need to seriously start vetting whoever they're getting their knowledge from

And these people making bank cuz they're selling their certificates for god knows how much. On top of the course cost itself

[hearty island]

me reading this as i try to get a pmp cert

[spark cobalt]

The only person I can't assess is the Angela person. Like they have 0 professional experience as a SWE, but somehow she's teaching at FAANG?

Like that's just someone idk is qualified or isn't.

[brittle thorn]

No vetting on the quality of courses those paid platforms then is the issue

[hearty island]

although the pmp cert does come from the PMI, which is a vetted institution

[brittle thorn]

I met a Microsoft Certified Trainer or two that Trains but don't wanna take coding jobs

[brittle thorn]

They may not know DRF so they can't teach that lmao

[spark cobalt]

Udemy has no reason to cut off their top sellers

[hearty island]

what does that even mean

[smoky quest]

I get the joke but this is not healthy nor great to promote on a server with such young audience

[peak halo]

is there context for this?

[hearty island]

i asked if my internship would give me a pay raise

they asked me to ballpark what i wanted my pay to be so i asked what was in their budget

[delicate bane]

yes and the joke is old after the first 10 times

[hearty island]

and now apparently finance is talking to the ceo abt it, so let's see what happens

they seem serious about me being the new PM

[delicate bane]

thats...weird. since if its intern pay, it shouldnt be a big deal no?

unless its about a full time position

[hearty island]

nope just an internship

[true harness]

aren't internships usually full time

[delicate bane]

no?

[vapid jay]

depends on the internship

[hearty island]

mine's part time

[true harness]

that's why i said "usually"

[hearty island]

maybe it's different in tech

no i'm project management

[vapid jay]

Anyone here make 60k or more pounds with their skills in python?

[true harness]

yes, not me though. why?

[vapid jay]

You poor soul 🥺

[summer roost]

they're not normally full time where you are?

[vapid jay]

Wanted to know if it was possible? :

...and in what industry

[hearty island]

why am i a poor soul

[delicate bane]

im assuming internships during school. many that i know of are part-time and typically the full-time ones are during the summer. but maybe its where i am, yeah.

[true harness]

probably any industry that uses python

[delicate bane]

yes. but you need more than just python.

[spark cobalt]

Oh I thought internships were typically summer or like taking a semester out of school or something, and less commonly part time

[true harness]

they didn't specify

[summer roost]

that's interesting. I (in the US) have never heard of part-time internships at all

[vapid jay]

just imagine thinking of human beings as simply resources . It doesn't mess with you when they dehumanize people into resources?

[spark cobalt]

But pounds are American, kilos are EU

[summer roost]

there aren't any countries in the EU that use pounds 😉

[delicate bane]

oh really? interesting. im in texas so theres that.

[spark cobalt]

Damn we thought of the exact same thing lol

[true harness]

there are some notable ones, like SAP STAR that do full time in the summer that continues to part-time during the year

[hearty island]

thinking about humans as resources? huh?

[summer roost]

I have seen some of these, yeah.

[true harness]

human capital

that's because the people that did, left

[hearty island]

doesn't mess w me

[delicate bane]

heh

[summer roost]

I know a few people in finance who make 150k GBP or more.

[vapid jay]

I think the 💀 symbol is 💀 from the overuse of 💀 😂

[white relic]

The UK, if that's where you are, has lower than average salaries for programmers as compared to other developed countries. That's my understanding anyway

[summer roost]

what do you mean by "average"?

[white relic]

Like, in aggregate?

US salaries are higher than average. UK are lower

[summer roost]

right, the aggregate of what sample?

[delicate bane]

mina posted a report that had some salaries from around the globe the other day. so that was interesting to see

[graceful mason]

you need to take into account cost of living

[summer roost]

I'm not sure what you're taking the average of when you say "average", though I do know what an average is. 🙂

[white relic]

I'm confused this is a controversy

people aren't moving from the EU to the US because they want a pay cut

[delicate bane]

#career-advice message

[summer roost]

I'm still not clear on what we're talking about. in particular, I'm not sure whether you're comparing the ratio of programmer pay to median pay in the UK vs in other countries, or if you're comparing the pay of UK programmers to the average pay of programmers in other developed countries

[delicate bane]

take it with a grain of salt since its only from levels

[white relic]

second one

[summer roost]

hm. https://codesubmit.io/blog/software-engineer-salary-by-country/ puts the UK in the top 10.

[white relic]

I should mention that I don't really have any clue how much money £60k is

[summer roost]

http://swexperts.com/news/software-engineer-salaries-by-country/ puts the UK at 11th

[summer roost]

around $72k USD on just an exchange rate basis, though cost of living comparisons are tougher.

[white relic]

this kind of survey is highly sensitive to regional trends in job titles

[summer roost]

ok, well - do you have a source suggesting that the UK's rate is substantially worse than other developed countries?

my impression is that UK programmer salaries are competitive with EU ones.

[smoky quest]

Can't speak for the whole world, but from the data/salary grids I have access to, the UK is on the top side comparing to the EU

[graceful mason]

last i heard £40k was around $100k (if you look at percentage income)

[white relic]

OK, I'm apparently misinformed

[summer roost]

what do you mean by "percentage income"? The percentile of the populace who makes that amount or more?

[graceful mason]

yep

[white relic]

Can't remember where I got that impression in the first place so 🤷‍♂️

[summer roost]

it's certainly true that software engineers in the UK make substantially less than in the US - but that's because the US is a massive outlier, not because the UK is.

[white relic]

That's (the US being an outlier) certainly true - I was under the impression that the UK was lagging the EU. But I guess not

[delicate bane]

this is median and not average but still may be helpful

[delicate bane]

i wouldve rather seen average but thats me

[cerulean path]

ok i'm moving to swiss cheese land

[brittle thorn]

It all depends thou on cost of living in area

If the salary is high but cost of living is higher you maybe better off staying where you are...aka grass is greener

[cerulean path]

well if i stay where i am it would be cheap

but i won't get any salary so yes i'm moving

[brittle thorn]

Then weigh your options carefully

[brittle thorn]

Sounds good lmao if a world War breaks you are probably safe

[white relic]

also find out what those developers in Zurich are getting paid to actually do

[cerulean path]

if a world war starts i'm also gonna be safe here

[white relic]

if the reason for the high salary is because there's a lot of fintech there, then just knowing Python won't put you in competition for those jobs, you'll need to also know something of finance

[cerulean path]

algeria

[delicate bane]

quantum computing. jk. or am i

[brittle thorn]

Bubble or not or quantum superposition

[white relic]

bubble, but with a few good years of funding left, IMO.
(disclaimer - I compete with the QC folks for funding, and the lay person doesn't understand the difference)

[brittle thorn]

That is my opinion too

[brittle thorn]

Yes laypeople don't get it media coverage had been full of hype

Maybe Quantum based measuring devices are a lot more practical than QC

Not all Quantum is hype

[gilded valley]

The median salary in the US is 120k USD. There's much worse data for the UK, but I've not seen anything to suggest it's even close to that. 50k GBP is a number that Glassdoor gives iirc. Payscale says a lot higher in their recent report.

My anecdata definitely lines up with Glassdoor, people in the US are looking at typical salaries of 70-150k out of uni, in the UK they're looking at 25-45k GBP

[gilded valley]

The London salary in that list is wildly out of whack with my anecdata

That's what newish teachers earn

For Software Developers it is

Source: BLS OEWS

In general it's much lower. I don't remember exactly, but ballpark is 35-60k for all occupations

[balmy spade]

yes but it sure isn't enjoyable knowing that a single unexpected issue will spiral the balance of budget so far out of control that you'll likely not recover.

[gilded valley]

25k in the UK is plenty livable... If you don't live on your own

[vapid jay]

More like 50k

[gilded valley]

No, you don't need to earn that much

[vapid jay]

If you want to live a boring life sure

[delicate bane]

its from levels.fyi so im assuming it skews due to mostly big tech salaries

[gilded valley]

Oh if you don't want to live a boring life, you need to earn at least 500k

[delicate bane]

something something importance of understanding your data

[gilded valley]

It just seems off in many ways to me. Cambridge being so different to London seems odd, Geneva being below London and 100k off of Zurich seems really weird

[delicate bane]

its also median instead of avg but maybe the data overall is just bad

not the first time ive seen bad data. thats for sure

why just this morning...💀

[gilded valley]

Median should be less affected by extremes like people in finance or a handful of staff engineers earning 500k in Zurich etc, so I'd have expected medians to be closer together than means

[delicate bane]

ah. looking at the data, it looks to be kinda bimodal. there also isnt that many data points it looks like.

[ivory sluice]

yeah i've always gotten the impression levels.fyi was pretty US-centric. imo they should make it more obvious when they're presenting such small samples

i think the shift in compensation between 2021 and 2022 was the more interesting part of that article

[brittle thorn]

Some cities are tech or finance hubs so the premium also the costs of rent and expenses scale up with the salaries....

Eventually would wfh smooth out that probably not cities are fun

Maybe who knows

Rent can't keep going up and some people will telecommute

So if people spread out then median salaries go down...

No need to pay extra if you are comfortable with lower salary

Take a wfh job and work in Third World

Then meet in VR

[smoky quest]

Either it's a "vacation" or it ends up being paid at the same rate than the locals

[brittle thorn]

Expats tend to be paid a premium in some places for some functions

That is to ensure they keep to higher tier jobs than locals and don't compete with the masses

Kinda discriminatory but i seen it myself

They live in expensive gated communities away from the masses if lucky

[smoky quest]

that seems specific to the country though. Sounds different than remote jobs like a remote job from the US

[brittle thorn]

Technically remote ...offshore western IT to local

Paid in USD or Euro ... pay higher salary than local corp ...Corp take cut

The people that benefit from the global market are those in the interface

I have seen a 3 to 4 person offshore operation to big corporations

Been part of both...but Trump put the break on some of it

Still around thou

Ultimately these services firms could evolve into product based firms ...seen that too

They will have to compete with lower cost countries in a race to the bottom and must move up the value chain

[smoky quest]

yeah that seems special

[brittle thorn]

There isn't much that can be done either way we all have to move up the value chain or seek a cost advantage

Unless we deglobalize but that is the wrong direction...
Higher prices all around...a more unstable and unjust world maybe even more wars

These offshore operations supplement local onshore operations in the best case and not replace locals while spreading wealth to the third world without people immigrating (which causes issues)

Then the locals buy IPhone and western goods and services and that's an expanding market for a global middle class

I seen that myself

[vapid jay]

so, i'm a total python beginner and just released my first "game". i uploded it on itch.io. i never showed other this game so you may give me feed back. https://tigerdunphy24.itch.io/robber-hunt

[gusty dome]

xd love the dono page

[delicate bane]

thats pretty wild. it feels like so many companies have offshore teams too or is that just me

[near remnant]

I will have a meeting with my CEO to talk about this year and plans, etc. I know it is not something I should worry about but I still feel anxious. Any advice?

[hot terrace]

Anyone here ever taken harvards cs50 intro to comp sci?

[brittle thorn]

Not just you... I worked with Danes, Swedes, Irish, Americans etc across several IT firms

Now doing cross border startups to level up

[white relic]

What's your job? Have you talked to the CEO before?

[near remnant]

I'm a junior dev. Yes.

[white relic]

well, idk about the meeting itself, but my advice for managing anxiety is to set an alarm for 5-10 minutes before the meeting (or however much time is the minimum you will need to call in / go to his office / etc.), and make sure your schedule is otherwise full of stuff to keep you busy.

You don't want to be sitting in your chair for hours fretting about it before it happens

in my experience, meetings with higher-ups usually involve them doing most of the talking

[near remnant]

Yeah, I don't really need to worry because this meeting has nothing really to do with me but just the fact that its the CEO you know haha

[white relic]

yeah, I get it

[vapid jay]

+1 on this from me. Started on 27k out of Uni in London, now on around 50k. I have not met anyone yet on 6 figures a year, highest I've seen senior devs go is around 70-80ish k a year + whatever compensation and benefits they get

[near remnant]

I will probably just won't care

[hearty island]

i'm kinda shocked my pm intern interview never asked me the difference between a process and a project... they took it really easy on me

i wouldn't be able to answer that before i started looking at this lean six sigma course

certs seemingly do talk in the pm world

[sleek egret]

hola cabrones

£80k GBP is what, about $100k USD?

and about €90k EUR?

[hearty island]

96,743.92 United States Dollar
yeah so around that

[sleek egret]

we pay college interns nearly that much and we are considered low paying

I don't really understand why there is so little software development in europe (relatively speaking)

[hearty island]

wow entry level project managers get paid around 70K

[graceful mason]

only if you look at exchange rate - comparing salaries (depending on the city) £40-50k is around $100k

[brittle thorn]

Probably because there are lower cost options to outsource to and not enough homegrown startups like in the US

[sleek egret]

um, exchange rate is 1 GBP = 1.2 USD

[white relic]

admittedly, all salary comparisons between countries are kind of bogus, but I don't think that is a particularly meaningful one

[brittle thorn]

This recent thou historically GBP was stronger...the political issues in the UK also scare investors

[sleek egret]

yes, but it hasn't been 2 for a half century

[brittle thorn]

You should have stayed in the EU

Recent political decisions had been a disaster

So investors will do a wait and see

[sleek egret]

oh wait, I'm wrong. the GBP/USD rate peaked over 2.0 back in 2007

either way, I anticipate GBP/USD parity within a decade

[brittle thorn]

Will the Scots and Irish break away

The Welsh want to stay in the union at least

If they do maybe the GBP would drop further

[near ocean]

Where 😳 asking for a friend

[sleek egret]

the welsh are the true english

[brittle thorn]

Lmao versus the German invaders

[sleek egret]

not to mention the romans

[white relic]

don't forget the danes

[sleek egret]

hell, the celts were also invaders

[brittle thorn]

Normans

[sleek egret]

there is evidence of multiple waves of invasions into the british isles before the romans

let's just call them the murder isles

[brittle thorn]

Then GB got global empire...payback lmao

And lost it

[sleek egret]

I assert that it was because of the horrible food

[brittle thorn]

Still got the Commonwealth thou

[sleek egret]

perhaps another english king should lose his head

[brittle thorn]

I have eaten fish and chips and drank Costa Coffee and Earl Grey...not too shabby

[sleek egret]

the coffee and tea are both non-english foreign imports

[brittle thorn]

Also a Sir David Attenbourgh Fan

[brittle thorn]

Lmao true

[sleek egret]

I remember being in london in the early 90's and asking "what kind of meat is in this meat pie?" the clerk just looked at me like I was crazy and said "meat meat"

[brittle thorn]

Lmao meat meat

[sleek egret]

also asked multiple vendors "what is in brown sauce?" literally no one seemed to know.

[brittle thorn]

So London food is mysterious

[sleek egret]

it's a sauce. and it's brown. what more do you need to know, eh?

[gilded valley]

I've not seen anything to suggest there are fewer software developers - there's plenty in the UK - they're just paid much worse

[gilded valley]

This is miles off of the mark - even if you're deducting 10k USD for healthcare costs

[sleek egret]

the reason they're paid less is that the demand is lower. that is too many developers, not enough projects.

note, I said "so little software development", not developers

[brave matrix]

well, in the US the market is oversaturated with so much talent, yet the pay is so high

[spark cobalt]

Maybe that trend for pay being lower this year than last year is because of the competition in the junior dev market, some are willing to sacrifice some pay to gain an advantage over other candidates.

One of the reasons why I'm pretty secure in my job is that since I'm a high school grad, they can pay me lower for pretty much the same labor they would give a college grad.

I guess on top of the fact that we don't have many juniors in the company to begin with. Which is probably burning money somewhere.

[vapid jay]

I wanna swap my usdt token to shiba, I want the site please!

[bronze lark]

.

[hearty island]

tell me why i just got a heart attack from an AWS email

i never linked a card to my account and all of a sudden AWS was like hey you might be facing charges

and even then it says $0 invoice total so 😅😅😅 wtf aws

[smoky quest]

Talented people are not that common. But there is an abundance of candidates

[vapid jay]

Talent is hard to find.
What the US market is saturated with is "many candidates with a lot of certificates" and not much **practical **experience.

[brave matrix]

How would you guys define talent?

[vapid jay]

"Talent" depends upon what the request is requiring.

[smoky quest]

Incentives and mindset aren't the same.
I am obviously painting very broad strokes and generalizations.

[smoky quest]

someone who can pass interviews

[brave matrix]

So you mean a data strcutures nerd that does 3 hours a day of leetcode?

[smoky quest]

no

[brave matrix]

or someone that can actually do real word projects by himself

[smoky quest]

That's not how interviews work

[vapid jay]

An interview covers more than simple technical achievements.

[brave matrix]

I've been in interviews before, each interview is different

but I've yet to understand your definition of talent

[smoky quest]

think about it as a funnel or a signal/noise where the qualified people are at the end (ie. the people who pass the interview and would be hired) and all the applicants at the top. That ratio is very low

[vapid jay]

Well, lets provide a definition of talent pool and work in reverse to breakdown the definition of talent.

As viewed on a search engine:

A proper talent pool database typically contains essential information about each candidate, including their 
-- skill set, the 
-- potential role they fill and
-- how well they fit within your company's culture

Talent would be someone who has

1. the proper skill set,
2. the potential to meet the standards of the role, and
3. the ability to fit well in the hiring company's culture.

[tropic wave]

How would i install a library to a specific editor using cmd?

[smoky quest]

Hi! You are asking in the wrong place. This is #career-advice . You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[vapid jay]

It is hard to find talent, because it is hard to find someone who can pass interviews. Interviews are the functions which identify talent.

[tropic wave]

oop sorry.

[vapid jay]

Well, I interpreted skill set as the 'technical' skills needed for the role, the 'standards' as someone who would be disciplined and timely to provide a complete task as needed.

Just because someone is skilled doesn't mean they are responsible, and just because someone is responsible doesn't mean they have the skills to do the task required of them.

Company culture is important as every company interacts differently internally.

[gilded valley]

you're right - I read it as software developers. I think a big part of the reason is that there's so much more venture capital in the US which means there's more startups. Places like Estonia are changing that

[smoky quest]

for a career or side gig?

For a career, you should:

• Aim for a CS degree and make sure you have the grades for it
• Build things and have fun

For side gigs, you may be better served with either people you know or student jobs. Freelance websites I know would require people to be 18 years old at least

what is your degree?

CS degrees are well regarded and recognized

also note that cs50 is an intro class, not a degree

a BSC

bachelor of science

yes, it's a degree

Why not? You don't want a high paying career with interesting jobs?

[gilded valley]

Going to college is near enough the only sensible path. Making a hard decision against it at 16 is a bad idea

[spark cobalt]

You don't have to go to Harvard or MIT to get a fruitful CS career.

[white relic]

you don't have to go to Harvard or MIT to get a solid CS education

[spark cobalt]

Poor = Financial Aid
Middle = Fucked
Rich = Paid for

Anecdotally, people only really care about level of education, not specifically where you went to.

[white relic]

It doesn't really matter where you went to undergrad anyway.

[vapid jay]

you don't need a CS degree for a good paying career lol

[gusty dome]

as a person coming from middle class this is very true

[smoky quest]

That sounds like a rant rather than a specific problem?

[white relic]

If you want to get a PhD in whatever then it may well matter what school you go to. But a bachelor's degree from MIT is a bachelor's degree, it's somewhat cool, but it's not where they get their reputation.

[vapid jay]

Hell, you don't need a degree in general to make money. You just need the knowledge, the drive and the business acumen to get it done.

[smoky quest]

It means it's just not what happens in real life

[white relic]

you don't need a lot of things in life, but some things really help

[smoky quest]

People will have a very hard time without a degree. The paths are far from equivalent

[vapid jay]

What we have here its the capitalist mindset. You only get a degree when you want to work for someone else.

[white relic]

stop watching those youtube videos, they're bad for you

[vapid jay]

OR... If you want a degree for intrinsic value or want to teach in college.

[smoky quest]

irl, a degree will provide a strong education and open up new doors and opportunities for you

[vapid jay]

Youtube?

The purpose of college is simply to network and meet people in powerful positions so you can use those connections later...

[spark cobalt]

Then don't. But blindly pursuing a path without knowing its tradeoffs is stupid.

[smoky quest]

Why are you pissed off? You haven't even reached the end of high school. It's way too early to be pissed off at anything

[white relic]

If you plan on a career in tech, and you are in HS/college age, getting a relevant degree will give you the absolute best chance of making the most of whatever opportunities come along.

[vapid jay]

But to reel in the focus of this conversation. What is your actual goal @vapid jay ?

[gilded valley]

@vapid jay what do you do?

[vapid jay]

Not enough apparently 😂

[spark cobalt]

There's definitely more people without degrees that are jobless. I.e., literally every nation ever, under every demographic, under every industry, etc.

[gilded valley]

I mean what's your job, what country are you in, what's your background experience?

[smoky quest]

You should see the line of people without a degree 😉

But joke aside, I don't know what people you are referring to

[white relic]

what's strangest about this is that you think not getting a degree means you get to jump the line??

[vapid jay]

... Maybe a college degree would assist you...

[spark cobalt]

Almost all billionaires have a degree.

[smoky quest]

Take all the opportunities you can get. Don't just ride along.
That means you learn the topics, you go deeper in the subjects/projects, look for nice internships, make your first professional network with your classmates/internships, get involved, etc.

[vapid jay]

Not really able to establish the credibility for you. However, I am in the Americas.

[gilded valley]

A bachelors is 3 years of building connections, if you're exceptional enough to become a billionaire, it's still probably a good choice

[spark cobalt]

Even in cases of people who didn't get a degree like Mark Zuckerburg, he has part of his teams educating him on the technology behind the products so he can review them. (At least according to my friends at Meta.)

[vapid jay]

@vapid jay This right here.

[smoky quest]

he also doesn't come from a poor family from what I recall 😉

[gilded valley]

I'm just asking because you seem to be strongly anti degree. There's not many people in this channel who don't have one, so I'm just curious what your background is

[spark cobalt]

Doing Economics at like U Chicago is probably a more realistic path to become a billionare

[smoky quest]

What makes you think you would learn less in college?

[spark cobalt]

U Chicago is fantastic for Econ.

[gilded valley]

There is no one for whom college doesn't make sense

[brave matrix]

Just answer the question 😂

[white relic]

you said this like you think people with degrees are waiting for people to hire them and people without degrees just... magically turn hustle into money I guess?

[smoky quest]

Can you rephrase it?

[white relic]

if you have the attitude to become a billionaire from nothing without an education, just think what you could do with that attitude and an education and the connections that come with a 3 or 4 year degree

[spark cobalt]

College not only gives education, but provides an amazing environment of resources to very knowledgeable people, connections/resources, etc.

[vapid jay]

Its not about being strong anti-degree. Its about the idea that college is the only way.

Also, @gilded valley I misread your comment. So everyone can pretty much disregard everything I said so far.

[smoky quest]

Teachers in college teach like in college because it's more appropriate. The focus is also very different. Where highschool focuses on forming the base of knowledge for citizens, college will focus on teaching you everything there is about CS. It's a lot more fun and applicable

[spark cobalt]

The better students ensure they have an offer lined up right after they graduate.

[gilded valley]

I graduated with 2 job offers

[spark cobalt]

I graduated with one offer (which I declined lol)

[smoky quest]

We already made offers to students graduating in 2023

[vapid jay]

One i... is better than zero. EDIT: Are you serious? Did the pay suck? Or did the company suck?

[spark cobalt]

It was in North Dakota. And the manager seems like shit. Seemed like he wanted someone to be his bitch.

[gilded valley]

I went into my final year with 2 separate job offers, and enough money to live on for the year from my internship, that's a peace of mind that's pretty unbeatable

[vapid jay]

Why do I always hear bad things about the Dakotas ?

[smoky quest]

then look for a college that uses a method that fits you more?
Or prepare yourself for it. But yeah, colleges will treat students as adults and will hold hands less

[spark cobalt]

Lot of the CS students that are/were struggling unfortunately didn't get a good grasp of the industry and what was reqiured to get a job out of college. Too many assume college is immediate employment, but that's not the entire picture.

[smoky quest]

Welcome to adulthood!

[vapid jay]

To bypass college is difficult. Not many have the mindset for it.
I'm not even sure of what industry you are intending or even the field you want to be in...

[vapid jay]

I hate adulting with a passion.

[spark cobalt]

I like adulting. So free, but so restrained.

[smoky quest]

you need more than mindset. Luck, time, money, support, etc.
It's not an alternative.
People don't skip degree because they have a choice

[brave matrix]

I never graduated so I didnt get any offers 😅

[smoky quest]

there are some good sides too, but it's outside the topic of this channel

[vapid jay]

Its only a choice when you already have the business up and running.

[smoky quest]

or you have very rich parents

[vapid jay]

This is true.

[brave matrix]

tbh getting a job without a degree is much harder than if you had one, and most of the time they will always choose the candidate that has the degree over you, unless you are exceptionally good, which isnt that hard to do if youre applying for entry level jobs.

[smoky quest]

google doesn't underpay. It's a great gig for retirement

[spark cobalt]

@vapid jay How do you plan to compete with the hundreds of thousands of college grads that's been studying for 4+ years in higher education?

[smoky quest]

They are in general more competitive than startups

[delicate bane]

thats one of my 2023 goals

anyway career coaching seems like an interesting thing

[spark cobalt]

[vapid jay]

If you want be a programmer start freelancing. There are a lot of freelancing websites for gigs. Set your price on multiple websites, or something along those lines.

[spark cobalt]

Ok what's stopping the hundreds of thousands of college grads to do the same thing?

I am asking you.

[vapid jay]

Freelance is the closest you'll get to understanding what its like to do work without a degree.

[delicate bane]

something something exceptionalism?

[spark cobalt]

[smoky quest]

If you want to forego the college, you need a plan. Otherwise you are gonna struggle

[spark cobalt]

Man's gaslighting himself. Accept reality, don't try to run from it.

[vapid jay]

It depends on the person. Are you the type to give up easily?

[spark cobalt]

I'm pretty sure he's recommended college at least 12 times

[delicate bane]

right. and if you do give up easily, then college is the safe bet

[smoky quest]

Go to college

[vapid jay]

Only you know the best plan for you. All of us in this discord have different plans, but our situations and circumstances are all different. Just like your situation, circumstance, and mindset is different.

[spark cobalt]

Then go to college.

[vapid jay]

Sounds like college is your best bet.

[forest kestrel]

today is my birthday

[delicate bane]

yep yep yep

[spark cobalt]

@vapid jay Be honest with yourself. Do you really think you'd be able to commit to monitoring yourself, going out of your way to meet new people and network, control yourself and do more than a year of consistent programming everyday, etc.?

[vapid jay]

If you had some specific goal @vapid jay I'm all for supporting. But if you don't have the faintest idea of where you're going. Maybe the guidance in college can help you in the mean time.

[spark cobalt]

I work as a software engineer right out of high school. But that required 6+ hours a day on programming, even on school days. Every, fucking, day. I started same age you are right now.

[patent grove]

if you were set to graduate in march 2023 and have been working part time for the company for a year and they have agreed to an "offer" coming soon in Feb, is this a bad sign since its late and near my graduation date?

[spark cobalt]

Not only that but in junior year of HS, it was COVID year so was spending easily 12+ hours a day on just programming.

[smoky quest]

Also think about your goals. Working in low webdev/qa is more achievable without a degree. But it's going to be a different story if you aim for ai/ml or complex jobs

[spark cobalt]

I worked with engineers from all over the place to formulate a plan. I've talked to dozens of engineers for just the resume part, much less the job hunting, among many other things.

[white relic]

An offer in February for starting in March is a bit late, but not a red flag IMO.

[spark cobalt]

Like there's a lot of things involved to being self taught, and actually building a plan that works that you're completely ignoring.

[delicate bane]

[white relic]

You don't have all your hopes pinned on this one offer coming through, I hope?

[spark cobalt]

Your question has been answered like 50 different times in another server. Bruh

[vapid jay]

The best thing about being a young one. Is that companies love helping kids. I'm sure you can get free internships and bypass a lot of college graduates if you just look for it.

[smoky quest]

For each job ad, I observe 3/4 digit applicants. Most of which have degrees, projects and internships. How will you stand out? Why would someone call you back instead of these 999 other candidates?

[white relic]

there aren't a lot of internships open to non-students

[smoky quest]

this server too

[vapid jay]

Then you haven't used your innate skillset as a kid to your advantage.

[delicate bane]

hmm idk about this bud. companies may just be as likely to brush you off

[vapid jay]

But they may just be as likely to take you in.

[smoky quest]

Hope is not a strategy

[white relic]

I doubt you're old enough to call me a kid.

[delicate bane]

i dont necessarily agree

[smoky quest]

"I have the balls to be less educated and trained"

[spark cobalt]

The 50 different aspects of a plan:

• How are you going to compete in this junior dev market?
• What kind of software are you going to be developing?
• How are you going to learn it?
• How are you going to show an employer your aptitude for these technologies?
• How are you even going to land interviews to begin with when your resume will likely be tossed against the hundreds of thousands of new grads seeking employment right now?
• Do you even know the state of the market right now for your level of experience?
• Do you have any plans to move? What about car? Do you have money saved? Have you looked at where you need to move if so?

Blah blah blah.

[vapid jay]

Eh. I used my age to my advantage to score some freebies. All unpaid of course... But of course. That was a long time ago.

[spark cobalt]

Like on top of just getting a job, there's a lot of fucking adulting that has to be done as well. You have to become an adult immediately right out of high school.

Pay your taxes, pay insurance, pay rent, pay gas, etc.

Do you even know how to pay your taxes? (I'm assuming not because American education)

[smoky quest]

How taking risks will make you a better engineer? Students did take risks as well

[delicate bane]

taxes ugh. we hate to see it

[vapid jay]

Its getting past the front desk and security is the hard part.

[spark cobalt]

I'll just be blunt here. Do you want to be homeless?

[smoky quest]

Yeah. And they did take risks by investing years of their life in education, training and projects and internships

[spark cobalt]

Like let's say you risk it and become homeless. Being in a homeless state makes it nearly impossible to get any role anywhere. You're investing so much time in just survivng, you don't have time to look for a dev job.

[smoky quest]

Note also that risk is not a good thing. It means you create uncertainty. What your boss wants is to know things will get done and working, not gambled

[spark cobalt]

I'm 18.

[vapid jay]

I'm not much of a gambler. ; )

[spark cobalt]

You can commit to winning the lottery, and never win.

[smoky quest]

it's an investment 😉

[vapid jay]

If you don't play, you'll never win.

[white relic]

winning the lottery isn't a career plan

[spark cobalt]

Ok so why aren't you saving up for the lottery then? Invest all your money into it.

[smoky quest]

it is. That's why faang is so attractive

[gilded valley]

All investments carry risk

[smoky quest]

A startup may give you a few millions after 5-10 years. If you annualize that, a faang will beat it

[gilded valley]

No they don't

[vapid jay]

fanng is attractive, sexist, and full of a bunch of jerks.
If you can survive all of that then you're well on your way to success.

[smoky quest]

faang have literally 10s of thousands of employees. I am sure they have a lot of things and their opposite

Lots of folks I know go there for retirement and are happy with it

[vapid jay]

Hope you dream about which college you're going to go to.

[spark cobalt]

I hope you have good grades and can get into a decent one.

[white relic]

I know some startup founders. They work day and night, they spend 10x more time schmoozing with VCs than anything technical, they are supported by their partners because every penny they get in capital goes back into the startup. This for a couple of PhDs who are incredibly smart, super driven and well positioned in their field. That's just the startup life

[smoky quest]

all of them

[white relic]

some risks are riskier than others (maybe I misinterpreted your comment's tone)

[smoky quest]

at that scale, they don't vary that much. Unless it's twitter

[vapid jay]

If fanng doesn't work out you can always try witch.

[smoky quest]

any large tech company at this point

you could even include linkedin if you wanted, even though they aren't independent anymore

great culture there too

[spark cobalt]

Someone from LinkedIn goes to my gym

[smoky quest]

equinox?

[spark cobalt]

BAHA no. Anytime Fitness

I see her go at like the craziest hours. Idk if Equinox is 24 hr.

[smoky quest]

it's not

[spark cobalt]

Equinox is, yeah you won't catch me being there

[delicate bane]

i thought you were only going for finance

[spark cobalt]

(he gave up on quant)

[delicate bane]

stop. that joke is long past old.

im just trying to help you not get muted.

but maybe i should stop

[hearty island]

this white belt cert is going well so far

[brittle thorn]

Call it a pivot

[spark cobalt]

[peak halo]

^ they're muted now, in case anyone was planning to alert us.

[stark imp]

sorry for being off topic but I really need help. How do i get permission to speak in the get help section? im only commenting her because this is the only section i permissions to speak in

[summer roost]

see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[stark imp]

yeah i dont have permission to speak in the channel

[summer roost]

Did you read the instructions? You don't speak in the channel, you create a new thread.

[vapid jay]

Was wondering why it was so quiet all of a sudden...

Is there anyone here working in the private sector whose specialty does not include a hardcore programming language like C++ ?

[smoky quest]

C++ is more of a niche language in these days and age. So I would expect most folks here, especially on a python focused discord server

[vapid jay]

Makes sense. I wanted to get some ideas in where they found most success within the first 5 years of starting and what benefited them the most.

[white relic]

depends what you mean by specialty I guess?
I know some C++, but I only really use Python in my job these days

but my job is electronics research, not software engineering proper

[vapid jay]

Electronics research? How do you python electronics?

[white relic]

Python runs the test rack with all the instruments that collect the data

and then more Python analyzes the results and makes them pretty

[vapid jay]

Essentially data engineering, no?

[white relic]

mmm... part of it yeah

but probably not good data engineering, as that's not my background

running the test rack is more like... async and networking stuff

[vapid jay]

Okay and you make sure everything is in working order.
Interesting. Didn't know there were jobs like that...

[white relic]

but I have a feeling my experience isn't really relevant to your question if that's what you're going for

[vapid jay]

Its relevant because I didn't know jobs like those existed.
My question was based on the premise that job specs were limited to SD or SE or DevOps or NetDevOps etc...

[white relic]

there's a lot of interesting jobs with a software development aspect to them that aren't at FAANG companies.

[vapid jay]

So your job title is like 'electronics research developer'?

[white relic]

Technically, just Senior Researcher. But somebody's got to do the development and I'm good at it.

At my previous company (larger team) we had dedicated devops people supporting the research.

[vapid jay]

So the developer world is a lot more bigger and far reaching than I can currently comprehend at the moment then...

[vapid jay]

What was you official first job like?

[white relic]

I started as an electronics engineer. I designed digital circuits and made libraries for timing simulations. I used Python and (at the time) Perl to automate various tasks... deploying libraries, analyzing simulation results, that kind of thing. Eventually I kind of adopted some other scripts that people had written and some other software-oriented projects came along and I enjoyed it enough to focus more on writing code than circuit design for a while.

I worked at a big defense contractor, so we did have software engineers on staff. We hired some fresh CS grads about halfway through my time there, and it was fun to try to teach them enough electronics to understand what we were doing.

[white relic]

Point being, even if my particular career path isn't one I would recommend anyone try to repeat, all kinds of companies need software developers, and coding is useful to people in many different kinds of roles. Every EE I know writes code of some kind (even if it's bash...)

[vapid jay]

its no wonder some people compare programming to cooking
the similarities are so plentiful

[rain shoal]

do pcep or pcap certifications mean anything to employers?

[peak halo]

this one? no, it means nothing. https://pythoninstitute.org/pcap

[rain shoal]

any good alternatives you know about?

[peak halo]

A CS degree

[rain shoal]

aha yeah thought so maybe some added context, im getting an engineering degree and just want something to prove i know what im doing in terms of programming

mechanical not software engineering

[peak halo]

a lot of software devs at my company have (non-CS) engineering backgrounds. are you in the US or Europe? have you done any internships?

[rain shoal]

nah im just starting out

[rain shoal]

im in australia lol just graduated high school

[peak halo]

that's like being from the US or Europe, but cooler and more deadly.

[rain shoal]

US has guns lmfao theres no lizard or spider thats gonna pop out and do more damage than an M4

[peak halo]

and the stars are different, I guess. anyway, does your uni do career fairs?

[rain shoal]

each autumn just a regular careers fair but definitely weighted towards engineering, project management, those kinds of jobs

[peak halo]

if you're just starting, and you want to be a developer, why have you not decided to switch your major to CS?

[rain shoal]

no not to be a developer just if a job requires a certain level of understanding as many mech eng jobs do i just need something as proof of knowledge (along with projects ill be doing)

[white relic]

there isn't really anything that bears weight as "proof of knowledge". Just put Python on your resume and be ready to answer questions about it if it comes up in an interview.

At least, that's what I would suggest for a US person.

[rain shoal]

oh really?

wow ok well ig ill just do that and put out a couple industry related projects then. Its not even worth doing the certification at all just to fill out my resume?

[white relic]

doubtful

[rain shoal]

ah oki doki then thank you

[warped dust]

Trent what field do you work in now?

[white relic]

I'm a researcher in novel electronics. Post-CMOS stuff.

Not quantum though.

[peak halo]

why not quantum?
everything should be quantum.

[brittle thorn]

Imma guess spintronics our uni had a guest lecturer once on it but I don't work on such

[candid hemlock]

Can you suggest a project where I can take myself to the next level and learn a lot?

[spark cobalt]

There's like 20 different variables to get to an answer that you didn't provide.

Can look at https://roadmap.sh/ to see various concepts you haven't done. Whether that's setting up a CICD pipeline, etc.

[candid hemlock]

Thanks I will look

[cobalt verge]

Hi

Hi dudes i am a newbie in this server ..

[frank spindle]

How could I be a partner

[snow rapids]

Is toptal still a possibility to freelance? I see they don't accept new applications at this moment...

Are there any alternatives to toptal you could recommend?

[midnight ferry]

My issue is I've learned all the skills for coding as a hobby as my career is in IT Infrastructure so already understand the DevOps side. How do you then switch career without all the qualifications?

[buoyant seal]

grab infrastructure tasks when possible.
get in company that allows asking for which stuff u wish to work with next (which project to work with) / or self defining those tasks xD
eventually if you advertise working with infra stuff, you are inevitably getting infra related offers.

[zealous sage]

any help i want print 4 yes not 8 yes

[midnight ferry]

@buoyant seal Sorry, I am in Infrastructure but want to get more into DevOps but don't have that particular experience. The last place I worked kept it very separate so had limited opportunity to show what I could provide for that team. I'm currently in between jobs though, but only been getting interviews for relevant IT Engineer Jobs and none for the Devops. Would it be worth building a showcase displaying the use of different tech?

[stoic timber]

#1035199133436354600 Please go here to start a help-thread. Explanations here: #❓｜how-to-get-help

[buoyant seal]

i mentioned in my resume as much infra stuff as possible. In result, despite resume being for backend developer, i got hired to backend development in DevOps engineering team and half of my duties are related at least to infra.
So it is always good to learn infra and mentioning in resume xD Then even if you were not in DevOps, u will become unexpectedly in it.

[white relic]

I think snail is saying they want to go the opposite direction, their resume is all infrastructure but they want to get into more of a dev role

[midnight ferry]

@white relic Yeah I spent most my career with IT support then moved into Infrastructure to get closer to DevOps but ended up doing Infrastructure installation and migration projects. Instead of doing what I would enjoy like coding and setting up Linux servers and working with their apps etc...

[twilit basalt]

Anyone got any advice for a graduate data analyst job CV after just coming out of university?

[vapid jay]

A CV? You mean a resume? I'm usually unconvinced that someone coming right out of university has enough for a CV ...

[gilded valley]

CV in Europe tends to mean the same thing as Resume in the US

[gilded valley]

Learn SQL, learn basic Python. Make sure you're comfortable with the basics of data visualisation, build a dashboard with some open data if you want a project to talk about in interviews - list it all on your CV

[hearty island]

i think someone coming out of college can at least put their internships on their cv if they have them.. right?

[twilit basalt]

sui

[twilit basalt]

basic python i know, trying to learn ML atm, SQL is easy

[lost mural]

hello guys!

[gilded valley]

ML is significantly less important than being comfortable talking about and understanding basic stats

[fathom wraith]

Hi

[vapid jay]

anyone here from us ill pay

[lucid vapor]

!rule 9 - hi, we don't allow for advertising paid work

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[proud plank]

Will choosing an apprenticeship over uni impact a programmer career negatively?

I just think i would be happier doing that instead of finishing highschool and go to uni

[gilded valley]

what country are you in?

[proud plank]

Austria

[peak halo]

If you haven't figured out how you would obtain an apprenticeship, it's sort of a moot question.

[gilded valley]

ah - I have no idea what the situation is like there I'm afraid. This is certainly country dependant

[peak halo]

Are apprenticeships common there?

For programming?

[proud plank]

I think so

[autumn crescent]

@spark cobalt

[peak halo]

Are apprenticeships paid?

[proud plank]

Yes

[spark cobalt]

Yes?

[buoyant seal]

In general. But not always

[buoyant seal]

U can even encounter apprenticeships for which u need to pay xD
Or apprenticeships which are paid, but if u leave earlier than time X then facing certain heavy money penalties

Better to read very carefully your contracts

[delicate bane]

yep yep. def read the fine print

[peak halo]

Like Revature? do they purport to be an apprenticeship company?

[azure cobalt]

i want to start with doing lead gen and selling real estate on commission basis

[azure cobalt]

best advice

[smoky quest]

get a realtor/broker license?

[azure cobalt]

said real estate as an example - it can be software etc

but how would i learn scraping for lead gen

[smoky quest]

That would likely go against rule 5. And also would be outside of the scope of this channel

[frosty pagoda]

Hi, I'm over 50 and would love to start a career as a software developer...what's the best path I can take given my age?

[smoky quest]

It depends on how much of your past experience you can leverage.
Bootcamps might be of help.

I would also recommend to hit your local job center as they may have relevant programs in place

[frosty pagoda]

I been learning programming as a hobby for the past 2-3 years and at the moment been following a online "programming logic" course from my local job center.

[smoky quest]

nice!
Have you applied to jobs? That's the real test

[frosty pagoda]

Not yet this week i have an appointment with someone from my local job center and i hope to get more information on the possibilities and job opportunities and what's the best way to approach a potential employer.

[near remnant]

just got laid off...company sent away every junior. i only have 4 months of experience. what can I do?

do you guys think i can get another job?

[smoky quest]

from what data should the people here make that determination?

[near remnant]

wdym?

[smoky quest]

What factors will inform the answers to your question?

[solemn briar]

You don't need to split the string you can iterate over a string just like you can iterate over a list.

imagine a string to be a list of characters if that helps

[buoyant seal]

probably it is a hint to give us resume (or any other similar information to work upon, like how your 4 months went in a company xD)

[near remnant]

if I for example started working on August 20 and my job ends on January 10. should I just put August - January in my resume so it will be just 6 months instead of putting exact dates?

because this is what I see on every resume, only months

but do I put August if I started working on the last week in August?

[true harness]

yes

[white relic]

I feel like even putting the month is aggressively precise

a 3 month internship, or a 6 month contract job... anything less than a year is just "less than a year"

but I'm sure some would disagree with me

[delicate bane]

can you talk about anything you did during that 4 month period? if you get to the interview stage, people will ask what you did during that time and you should be prepared to give an appropriate response

also. @near ocean it happened lol

[near ocean]

🤦🤦🤦
Silicon valley techbros sometimes

[delicate bane]

when given loopholes...

[proven latch]

The response to this is to always say, well I expect 750k or you don't value me.

When companies do things like this it is awful.

[delicate bane]

if you have a loophole, im not surprised that companies are taking advantage of the loophole tbh. i mean mariosis even predicted it way back when

new mckinsey report so take it with multiple grains of salt lmao https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/quantumblack/our-insights/the-state-of-ai-in-2022-and-a-half-decade-in-review

[proven latch]

Right, so when you apply or talk to the recruiter, say, well that top of band is 900k so 750k or it is not worth my time.

[near ocean]

always ask what their budget is and always ask for the entire budget

[gilded valley]

I'm currently in the latter stages of one process. The last steps are apparently 2 personality tests and an IQ test. Seems very bizarre to be doing them this late in the game.

Anyone else ever heard of anything similar?

(this part is run by pure finance people, not typical tech recruitment)

[summer roost]

an IQ test? Run away, run far and run fast.

[pine sleet]

I thought it was common knowledge personality tests were a load of bull

[summer roost]

The one I'm most familiar with is MBTI - that one is generally acknowledged to at least be measuring something, because a person's results are fairly reproducible from one test to another and from one day (or even year) to another. There's little consensus about what it's measuring and whether that's a thing worth measuring, though.

[gilded valley]

It's not actually an IQ test, just something with high correlation to IQ, it's on a standard recruiting platform

I did something similar for my current, more junior, job - but it was right at the beginning of the process

The weird thing to me is just doing it so late

[digital fjord]

it could just be that the person responsible for arranging for the tests was later than the people doing the earlier steps

busy HR and such

[summer roost]

I'd be leery about accepting even one personality or intelligence test as part of the interview process. I'd absolutely walk away if they demanded 3 different ones.

[near ocean]

Its pretty normal for finance companies, practically every asset manager out there does these goofy competency tests

[true harness]

i had one test that was basically just an iq test + you had to identify what emotions people were showing using just their eyes + one of those "which of these do you align with more" things for the same company

[summer roost]

I've worked for several finance companies and applied to more, and I've never had to go through that. I'd take it as a strong signal that they're basing their hiring decisions in pseudoscience rather than competent human judgment.

[near ocean]

Every thursday and friday i get to eavesdrop on the gf coaching uni kids through these questions, its sad and hilarious at the same time

[near ocean]

Well yes, isnt that the entire industry? /s

[summer roost]

I mean, no 😄

[near ocean]

Must be imagining things then

[summer roost]

1 would be iffy for me, but 3 would definitely be a nonstarter.

[near ocean]

I know for sure places like Nomura, Balyasny, State Street, JPM, UBS, and others do these silly tests

Especially for analyst roles, investment banking, these kinds of positions

[gilded valley]

Do you have any idea what the failure rate is like?

[delicate bane]

why does finance like these tests? lmao

[gilded valley]

Interview process was:
First round interview, mostly technical
Second round, mostly cultural and details of the role
Third round, technical test
Fourth round, 90m meet the team (because it's a technical role in a currently non-technical team)

Presumably after going through all of that and then sounding fairly positive, they don't want to drop me because of the tests

[near ocean]

No idea, sorry, i imagine this step isnt as hard as the technical stuff

[gilded valley]

presumably not - but I'd feel terrible about it if I failed at this point

[near ocean]

If you feel you did well in the technical stuff it could just be bureaucracy and ceremony rather than actual weighted tests

When I was interviewing for my current role i got the offer early and was told to wait before signing cause they forgot to schedule the HR step, so I had to wait for them to call me before accepting

[sleek egret]

yar

[alpine jacinth]

What certs do I need to be a computer repair tech?

[graceful mason]

Look up computer repair tech jobs where you live and see what they're asking for

[elfin mist]

Hi, I found a job that I want to work for but their requirement is Django ,I already know some Django , can someone help me and tell all the subjects that I need for the job?(I mean some Django titles)

[buoyant seal]

Postresql (SQL)
Rest apis (Django rest framework and Django Ninja)
Git (CLI)
Data structures and algorithms
OOP
Design patterns
Clean code
Clean architecture
Unit testing and TDD, and pytest
Pydantic and Mypy/Pyright (feel the maximum Python typing)
Multithreading, multiprocessing, coroutines
Message queues (Celery)
AWS
Docker
Event streaming (Kafka)
Web sockets (Django channels)
Nginx
Redis
JWT (and other auths)
Github actions / Gitlab Ci workflow writing
Frontend basics (Html/CSS/JS)

[elfin mist]

Thank you so much!

[buoyant seal]

U a welcome. Added few additional subjects

[hazy wedge]

Hello, I have some questions -

1. I want to learn python and go into backend developing/ethical-hacking, in which field should I go/go first?
2. I have learnt the basics of python from courses like the CS50's Introduction to Programming with Python, freecodecamp's beginner python course, and some short courses. Which course(s) should I watch next for going into intermediate python, like handling data and security? Thanks in advance!

[gusty turret]

Hi...imma a begginer python learner

Can you help me learn stuff

[buoyant seal]

https://github.com/amaargiru/pyroad

[hazy wedge]

Tysm! I'll read that

[buoyant seal]

U a welcome.
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
Learn object oriented python
Data structures and algorithms in Grokking algorithms book
And proceed to learning Code architecture with Code Complete by McConnel
And Unit testing by Khorikov

Learn how to code scalable code 😅

[hazy wedge]

oh nice alr

[near remnant]

Such a good way to start new year with a lay off...
I have 6 months of experience in python backend development. FML. Give me hope guys, I feel really down honestly. People say with 6 months of real work exp, I will find a job, but idk, i feel hopeless.

[buoyant seal]

Here is your hope: U have more chances than people with 0 months 🙂